>> Narrator: Live from Orlando, Florida. It's TheCUBE covering PentahoWorld 2017. Brought to you by Hitachi Vantara. >> Welcome back to Orlando everybody, this is PentahoWorld #Pworld17. This is TheCUBE, the leader in live tech coverage. Brian Householder is here, he's the president and COO of Hitachi Vantara. Brian, thanks for taking some time out. >> Brian: My pleasure, thanks for having me. >> You're welcome. Let's start with Hitachi and Hitachi Vantara. You guys announced that just about a month or so ago? >> Brian: Yeah. >> People are asking, what is Hitachi Vantara, it brings together some of the three of the key pillars of your organization, so explain that to us. >> Yeah, so, we've been doing a ton of transformation here over the last 10, 15 years for Hitachi and the original Hitachi Data Systems. So really, what we have been transitioning to is a data company. And frankly, today 60% of our revenue comes from software and services, and we wanted to actually then formalize that more and then create this new company for Hitachi. So basically, we are the data arm for Hitachi, and so we created this company called Hitachi Vantara, and that does include the Pentaho organization, that includes what we call the Hitachi inside organization, which is all of our IoT assets, and includes Hitachi Data Systems. That's really the data arm, so Hitachi Vantara is the data arm for Hitachi. And so the mission of Vantara is, how do we help our customers deliver what we call edge to outcomes, which is really, wherever your data gets created, wherever environment it happens to be, if you're actually getting into IoT environments or what have you, we can actually then help you deliver the outcome that you actually need for your business. >> So I got to ask you about the name. Vantara, you think advantage, vantage point, insights. Where's the name come from, where's the meaning there? >> I've been through the whole branding process, so it's not. We ended up basically, number one wanted to make sure that we had a suggestive name. And most global companies have a suggestive name. And so Hitachi's obviously always going to be at the forefront of what we do. Vantara was a combination of a few different words. You mentioned them. One was around advantage, so how do we actually help customers take advantage of their data, and that's really what we wanted to go do. How do you have a vantage point? So, how do you actually then help customers really see across their environment. And then we also wanted to give a nod to kind of our virtualization heritage as well, and that's where the V comes from. And so that's really where we came up with Hitachi Vantara. It's exciting to have, really, in terms of teaching the marketplace around more what we do. It's ironic, again, I have a chance to talk to companies all over the world, and there's two comments I typically hear from customers. When we talk about Hitachi, and what we're doin', and our social innovation strategy, or any of the digital innovations that we do. Usually the first one's Wow. And the second one is I didn't know you did that. And that gets into, I didn't know you did those artificial intelligence technology, I didn't know that you did that around machine learning, I didn't know you actually did these kinds of solutions. And so really, this is us making sure the market understands what we're up to, and making sure that we can actually let people know all the great things that Hitachi's all about. >> So a lot of people don't know, well, you and I have known each other since before Pentaho started back in the late 90's, I think we met. And you've always been sort of focused on areas of innovation. You came into Hitachi I think over a decade ago. >> Brian: Yeah, 14 years ago. >> When Hitachi was largely a infrastructure company, kind of predominantly storage company. Talk about the transformation that you and your colleagues effected at Hitachi Data Systems and what your mission was and how far you've come. >> I've been here over 14 years, and when we first came in, yes, Hitachi Data Systems back then was mainly an infrastructure company. I mean, greater than 80% of our revenue came from hardware, and about 20% of our revenue came from software and services, so our job, and again it wasn't just me, there was a number of us that kind of came on board, to how do we really help shift this model from moving beyond infrastructure, much more into a data and software type offering. So really, over the years, we made some massive changes. And this gets into obviously acquisitions, Pentaho fit into that as well, so that's really kind of front and center with our data strategy. But, if you start talking about the offerings that we ended up doing, you know now Hitachi Vantara. So if you look at the combintations of the acquisitions and transformations we've done to date, including the Pentaho organization, and including all the innovations we've done around IoT and Lumada, that organization is, 60% of our revenue comes from software and services. That's much more of all the data solutions that we go do. So we still provide the infrastructure for companies, but it's much more around how does that infrastructure help you drive the right kind of data strategy for your organization. >> So you've done a lot of M&A over the years, and you personally have been, I know, involved in it. You said in your keynote that you looked at all the big data companies, you chose Pentaho, executives often say that, but you did have the pick of the litter at the time. One of the things you said that you were very interested in the open source component. >> Brian: Yes. >> That Pentaho brought. I want you to talk about the go-to-market of open source, and software, and how that's different than the traditional hardware world. I mean, it kind of starts with developers, right? >> Brian: It does. >> Maybe discuss that a little bit. >> Just back on the reason why we ended up choosing that. Really, our strategy's all around being open, and so I think that open culture, that open environment. Having customers use what technologies they want for their environment is very critical for us. So we do talk a lot about that, around how do we make sure we don't lock customers in, how do we make sure that they can actually use the technologies that they want, and we certainly saw the trend even three, four years ago around customers are going to move much more towards leveraging the open source communities, and we wanted them to embrace this, that's the reason for the Pentaho piece. Yes, now, a commercial open source model is different, we knew that going in. Certainly, the ecosystem is radically different, the developer community's radically different. What we needed to do is really allow and get Pentaho to make sure that becomes a front and center portion of our business when it comes to some of the new data solutions that we actually provide. And that gets into these events, this gets into how do we actually want to continue to foster the developer community, and then really how do we actually want to make sure we're adding value above and beyond what actually happens out in the open source community. And I think that gets into this whole delivering edge to outcomes for our customers. And Pentaho fits into that a little bit, but there's also a lot of other pieces around that, whether that be around IoT, around the sensor environment, how do you create and move from the digital to the physical worlds, and then ultimately out to what customers care about, which is really delivering the outcomes that they want for their business. >> I want to translate something you just said, adding value beyond what the open source world can do. I translate that into, you got to make money. And a way to make money, you can have a pure open source model, but it's very very difficult. There's one example in Red Hat, but most companies struggle to do that. You've got to have a hybrid, right. >> Brian: We do. >> Maybe discuss the profitability and margin model, from your perspective, so you can continue to fund that $3 billion in R&D. >> So I think if you look at it more kind of, if you look at our customer base, our customer base is really around the global 2000 is where we shine the most. So a lot of the open source community stuff is amazing, but if you want to start talking about doing things at scale, that's really where we come into play. So if you start talking about, we want to scale up a Pentaho set of products, or the overall Hitachi Vantara sets of products, that's really where we think we add a lot of the value. That's really where our commercial piece of the equation comes into play, and that's really where we actually go out there and shine with customers. Number one, customers don't want to deploy all that open source and have to manage it, but more importantly, when they start getting into these massive scale environments, this gets into how do you actually do distributed nodes, how do you actually then scale up these environments to not these small 50 terabyte lakes, but we're talking about petabytes and petabyte type scale. That's really where we shine, and that gets into not just the software components, but a lot of the services and integration. What a lot of partnerships that we do to help customers get that involved. >> Yeah, you do complex well. That's one of the things you said in your keynote. You also made the point, and I want to push on this a little bit. Talking about data ownership, and protection of customers data, you don't own your own cloud, or maybe you do somewhere inside the giant Hitachi organization, but that's not your schtich, you're not AWS or Google or Azure. You made the point that it's your data, so I want to push at that a little bit, because you also put up a slide that was very impressive about the capabilities of Hitachi Vantara. X is a service, solutions and services, data science, and machine learning, et cetera, domain expertise. If it's the customers data, okay, but you've got these other capabilities, and you're feeding that data into models, and those models get trained from the data, and they essentially, I have a hard time understanding where the data and the models leave off. So those models contain IP from the data. How do you ensure for your customers that the models don't go to their competitors, for example. Or, do they go to the competitors, and you're transparent about that. Maybe talk about that a little bit. >> Yeah, well we're certainly not lookin' to have customers IP at all go to our competitors, or anything around the learnings or knowledge that we actually have there. So I think the knowledge that we learn with our customers, I think hopefully adds value for them, but it's ultimately, that's their domain, if you will. So that's stuff that we want to go do. If you start talking about the original point around the ownership, we do want customers to own their own data, not us. And I think there's lot of companies out there that are actually very interested, even though they won't say it, that they want to actually own the customers data. And so I think what we're looking to go do, is really how do we actually help partner with our customers, to make sure that they have the keys to their kingdom, have the keys to their data, wherever they want to put it. And so this is not just the Pentaho assets, if you will, we have a number of other assets around content, doing this Hitachi content platform or what have you, that allows customers to put their data wherever they want it to be, but makes sure that they actually have control over that, which really gets into more of the metadata layer, to different areas that they can actually make sure that they know where all their data is, what's happening with their data. If you want to actually run a bunch of models in terms of what's happening on the machine learning or what have you, those are all things that we actually want to partner with our customers, and then the domain science, and if you talk about the data scientists and what we're actually learning from that, the knowledge around how to solve a particular problem is fine, but when it comes to the algorithms and all that, that's all the customers data. >> Okay, so you're not in the business, obviously, of taking models and bringing 'em to the competition, 'cause you said a lot of those big internet companies will say, oh no, it's your data, but you had made the point in your keynote, well you just look at their behavior, and then, you know, judge for yourself. >> Yeah, exactly. >> Let's talk about edge to outcomes. The edge is obviously an interesting area, it seems to be exploding. This notion of putting things at the edge, and then everything goes to the cloud is not likely, you're going to have a lot of stuff in between. When you first acquired Pentaho, we saw the interesting vision of bringing analytics and IoT, and OT, IT and OT, together. >> Right. >> So what's your vision for how the edge will evolve and how you guys add value there. >> I think if you look at the highest level, there's a big pendulum swing as we all know. I mean you go from main frame days, to the open system distributed days, and then much more towards a centralized cloud days, to much more of an edge. So I think we're moving in that direction, I think we need to, and I think the biggest thing that we look for is follow the data. And so wherever the data gets created, that's where some of the processing is going to have to occur. We all know the examples. Uber is not going to send information to the cloud to decide if you need to stop at a stop sign, it just doesn't happen. And so if you look at all of these edge-like devices, whether it be a car, or whether it be any kind of gateway, a sensor, or what have you, there is going to be some level of analytics that's going to have to occur at that edge, depending on, how much real time information that you need, or what you're exactly asking them to do. And that would include even analytics when it comes to video, video surveillance, things along those lines. And then, how do you then start matching that in terms of then bringing those data points into the broader ecosystem in terms of what's happening. If you wanted to actually analyze all the cameras, let's say, at this resort, you're going to have to do some things at the edge, but then centrally you can start moving those things a little bit more centrally. If you want to start then bringing those across a campus environment as well, you're going to have multiple layers, but the way we look at it is follow the data. If you've got all the data over here, you're going to have to have analytics over there. So I think a lot of people say or have this belief that data's going to move to where the analytics are, and we believe it's the exact opposite. You have to have the analytics be where the data gets created. And I think that's a really fundamental shift, maybe, in terms of our approach relative to what others are after. >> And that underscores your philosophy there, and by the way we would agree with that, I mean we see the edge as obviously very cost sensitive, you're going to persist only what you need to persist at the edge, and then bring pieces back maybe to some kind of aggregation point, and then up to the cloud for all the deep analysis and model training and the like. Do you agree with that sort of three tier model? >> Totally agree, yeah, and I think that that kind of hub, or gateway, or what have you, is going to depend on the kinds of data that you're looking at, and the analysis, but you will have to have some kind of model that's going to aggregate things over time, just depending on how much data's out there, exactly what you're looking to go do, how quickly do you actually need to get the analytics into the overall deep learning model. And so I think all of those architectures will evolve, but we definitely believe you're going to have the edge, you're going to have some kind of aggregation point, some hub, some gateway, or what have you, and then the overall kind of model. Whether that's your cloud in the public cloud or what have you that's doing all the aggregation and analytics across all your data points. >> Well, I think that's a really good point, the third tier that I'm calling the cloud, it's really three and three-A, which is public cloud and on-prem cloud. >> Correct. >> Okay, and then last question, I know you got to go. In putting together this new global conglomerate, how are you spending your time, what kinds of things are you lookin' at when you put on the binoculars, maybe not the telescope, I thought Brian from Forrester was right, your three year plan you might as well throw it out tomorrow. >> Right. >> But just in the near to mid-term, where are you spending your time, what kind of things are you thinking about? >> Certainly a lot of time with customers and partners, for sure, and that's why these kinds of events are great. 'Cause we can actually have a number of customers come in together. That was a big event we had 30 days ago as well. Great event, certainly I spent a fair amount of my time there. The other one's really around our team. We are changing up a lot of the leadership on our team to help us in terms of what's the next level or phase of our transformation, and to your point, we've gone from this company of old, 15 years ago, to now a company that we've got this data company for Hitachi, Hitachi Vantara, 60% of our revenue is software and services, this includes the $1.2 billion of acquisitions we've done over the last, you know, five to ten years. All of the other aspects. The team, and we talked about this earlier, but the team, the people, is really where it's at. We have a few new leaders on our team, which are amazing, and this is around whether it be on our sales organization, or product or what have you. I'm spending a fair amount of my time with our team. We'll be at an off site all next week as well, just making sure we're aligned on what's the next phase of executing on this strategy. >> Well, it's been interesting to watch this portion of Hitachi evolve. You guys emphasize culture, you got a great culture, and you're a great leader, I really appreciate you spending the time. >> Thanks so much Dave, yeah, appreciate it. Thank you. >> You're welcome. Alright, keep right there everybody, we'll be back with our next guest right after this short break. (light techno music)

(upbeat music) >> Hello, brilliant cloud community, and welcome back to AWS re:Invent. We are here in Las Vegas, Nevada. I'm Savannah Peterson, joined by my co-host Dave Vellante. Dave, how you doing? >> I'm doing well, thanks, yeah. >> Yeah, I feel like... >> I'm hanging in there. >> you've got a lot of pep in your step today for the fourth day. >> I think my voice is coming back, actually. >> (laughs) Look at you, resilient. >> I was almost lost yesterday, yeah. >> Yeah. (laughs) >> So, I actually, at a Hitachi event one time almost completely lost my voice. The production guys pulled me off. They said, "You're done." (Savannah laughing) They gave me the hook. >> You got booted? >> Dave: Yeah, yeah. >> Yeah, yeah, you actually (laughs) got the hook, wow. >> So, I have good memories of Hitachi. >> I was going to say (Dave laughing) interesting that you mentioned Hitachi. Our two guests this morning are from Hitachi. Sid and KP, welcome to the show. >> Thank you. >> Savannah: How you guys doing? Looking great for day four. >> Great. Thank you. >> Great. >> Hanging in there. >> Thank you, Dave and Savannah. (Savannah laughing) >> Dave: Yeah, cool. >> Savannah: Yeah. (laughs) >> Yeah, it was actually a Pentaho thing, right? >> Oh, Pentaho? Yeah. >> Which kind of you guys into that software edge. It was right when you announced the name change to Hitachi Vantara, which is very cool. I had Brian Householder on. You remember Brian? >> Yeah, I know. >> He was explaining the vision, and yeah (indistinct). >> Yeah. Well, look at you a little Hitachi (indistinct). >> Yeah, I've been around a long time, yeah. >> Yeah, all right. (Dave laughing) >> Just a casual flex to start us off there, Dave. I love it. I love it. Sid, we've talked a lot on the show about delivering outcomes. It's a hot theme. Everyone wants to actually have tangible business outcomes from all of this. How are customers realizing value from the cloud? What does that mean? >> See, still 2007, 2008, it was either/or kind of architecture. Either I'm going to execute my use cases on cloud or I'm going to keep my use cases and outcomes through edge. But in the last four or five years and specifically we are in re:Invent, I would talk about AWS. Lot of the power of hyperscalers has been brought to edge. If you talk about the snowball family of AWS, if you talk about monitor on edge devices, if you talk about the entire server list being brought into Lambda coupled inside snowball, now the architecture premise, if I talk about logical shift is end. Now the customers are talking about executing the use cases between edge and cloud. So, there is a continuum rather than a binary bullion decision. So, if you are talking about optimizing a factory, earlier I'll do the analytics at cloud, and I'll do machine on edge. Now it is optimization of a factory outcome at scale across my entire manufacturing where edge, private cloud, AWS, hyperscalers, everything is a continuum. And the customer is not worried about where, which part of my data ops, network ops, server ops storage ops is being executed. >> Savannah: It's like (indistinct). >> The customer is enjoying the use cases. And the orchestration is abstracted through an industrial player like Hitachi working very collaboratively with AWS. So, that is how we are working on industrial use cases right now. >> You brought up manufacturing. I don't think there's been a hotter conversation around supply chain and manufacturing than there has been the last few years. I can imagine taking that guessing game out for customers is a huge deal for you guys. >> Big because if you look at the world today, right from a safety pin, to a cell phone jacket, to a cell phone, the entire supply chain is throttled. The supply chain is throttled because there are various choke points. >> Savannah: Yeah. >> And each choke points is surrounded by different kind of supply and geopolitical issues. >> Savannah: 100%. >> Now, if we talk about the wheat crisis happening because of the Ukraine-Russia war, but the wheat crisis actually creates a multiple string of impacts which impact everything. Silicon, now we talk about silicon, but we then forget about nickel. Nickel is also controlled in one part of that geopolitical conflict. So, everything is getting conflagrated into a very big supply issue. So, if your factories are not performing beyond optimum, if they are not performing at real, I'm, we are talking about factory, hyperscale of the factory. The factory needs to perform at hyperscale to provide what the world needs today. So, we are in a very different kind of a scenario. Some of the economists call it earlier the recession was because of a demand constraint. The demand used to go down. Today's recession is because the supply is going down. The demand is there, but the supply is going down. And there is a different kind of recession in the world. The supply is what is getting throttled. >> And the demand is somewhat unpredictable too. People, you know, retailers, they've... >> Especially right now. >> kind of messed up their inventory. And so, the data is still siloed. And that's where, you know, you get to, okay, can I have the same experience across clouds, on-prem, out to the edge? Kind of bust those silos. >> Yep. >> You know, I dunno if it's, it's certainly not entirely a data problem. There's (laughs), like you say, geopolitical and social issues. >> Savannah: There's so much complexity. >> But there's a data problem too. >> Yes. >> Big. >> So, I wonder if you could talk about your sort of view of, point of view on that cross-cloud, hybrid, out to the edge, what I call super cloud? >> Absolutely. So, today, if you look at how enterprises are adopting cloud or how they're leveraging cloud, it's not just a hosting platform, right? It is the platform from where they can draw business capabilities. You heard in the re:Invent that Amazon is coming up with a supply chain service out of the box in the cloud. That's the kind of capabilities that business wants to draw from cloud today. So, the kind of multicloud or like hybrid cloud, public cloud, private cloud, those are the things which are kind of going to be behind the scenes. At the end of the day, the cloud needs to be able to support businesses by providing their services closer to their consumers. So, the challenges are going to be there in terms of like reliability, resilience, cost, security. Those are the ones that, you know, many of the enterprises are grappling with in terms of the challenges. And the way to solve that, the way how we approach our customers and work with them is to be able to bring resilience into the cloud, into the services which are running in cloud, and by driving automation, making autonomous in everything that you do, how you are monitoring your services, how we are making it available, how we are securing it, how we are making it very cost-effective as well. It cannot be manually executed; it has to be automated. So, automation is the key in terms of making the services leveraged from all of this cloud. >> That's your value add. >> Absolutely. >> And how do I consume that value add? Is it sort of embedded into infrastructure? Is it a service layer on top? >> Yeah, so everything that we do today in terms of like how these services have to be provided, how the services have to be consumed, there has to be a modern operating model, right? I think this is where Hitachi has come up with what we are calling as Hitachi Application Reliability Center and Services. That is focusing on modern operating, modern ways of like, you know, how you support these cloud workloads and driving this automation. So, whether we provide a hyper-converged infrastructure that is going to be at the edge location, or we are going to be able to take a customer through the journey of modernization or migrating onto cloud, the operating model that is going to be able to establish the foundation on cloud and then to be able to operate with the right levels of reliability, security, cost is the key. And that's the value added service that we provide. And then the way we do that is essentially by looking at three principles: one, to look at the service in totality. Gone are the days you look at infrastructure separately, applications separately, data and security separately, right? >> Savannah: No more silos. >> No more silos. You look at it as a workload, and you look at it as a service. And number two is to make sure that the DevOps that you bring and what you do at the table is totally integrated and it's end to end. It's not a product team developing a feature and then ops team trying to keep the lights on. It has to be a common backlog with the error budget that looks at you know, product releases, product functionalities, and even what ops needs to do to evolve the product as well. And then the third is to make sure that reliability and resiliency is inbuilt. Cloud offers native durability, native availability. But if your service doesn't take advantage of that, it's kind of going to still be not available. So, how do you kind of ingrain and embed all of these things as a value add that we provide? >> There's a lot of noise. We've got hybrid cloud. We've got multicloud. We've got a lot going on. It adds to the complexity. How do you help customers solve that complexity as they begin their transformation journey? I mean, I'm sure you're working with the biggest companies, making really massive change. How do you guide them through that process? >> So, it is to look at the outcome working backwards, like what AWS does, right? Like, you know, how do you look at the business outcome? What is the value that you're looking to drive? Again, it's not to be pinned through one particular cloud. I know there is lot of technology choices that you can make and lot of deployment models that you can choose from. But at the end of the day, having a common operating model which is kind of like modern, agile, and it is kind of like keeping the outcomes in the mind, that is what we do with our customers to be able to create that operating model, which completes the transformation, by the way. And cloud is just one part of the LEGO blocks which provides that overall scheme and then the view for driving that overall transformation. >> So, let's paint a picture. Let's say you've got this resilient foundation; you've kind of helped the customers build that out. How do they turn that into value for their customers? Do you have any examples that you can share? That'd be great. >> Yeah, I can start with what we're doing for one of the, you know, world's largest facility, infrastructure, power, cooling, security, monitoring company that has their products deployed in 2,000 locations across the globe. For them, and always on business means you are monitoring the temperature. You are monitoring the safety of people who are within the facility, right? A temperature shift of one to two degree can affect even the sustainability goals of NARC, our customer, but also their end consumers. So, how do you monitor these kind of like critical parameters? How do you have a platform? >> Savannah: Great example, yeah. >> How you have cloud resources that are going to be always on, that are going to be reliable, that are going to be cost-effective as well is what we are doing for one of our customers. Sid can talk about another example as well. >> Great. >> Yeah, go for it, Sid. >> So, there are examples: rail. We are working with a group in England; it's called West Coast Partnership. And they had a edge device which was increasing in size. Now, this edge device was becoming big because the parameters which go into the edge device were increasing because of regulation and because the rail is part of national security infrastructure. We have worked with West Coast Partnership and Hitachi Rail, which is a group company, to create a miniaturization of this edge device, because if the size of the edge device is increasing on the train, then the weight of the train increases, and the speed profile, velocity profile, everything goes down. So, we have miniaturized the edge device. Secondly, all the data profiles, signal control, traction control, traction motors, direction control, timetable compliance, everything has been kept uniform. And we have done analytics on cloud. So, what is the behavior of the driver? What is a big breaking parameter of the driver? If the timetable has being missed, is there an erratic behavior being demonstrated by the driver to just meet the timetable? And the timetable is a pretty important criteria in rail because if you miss one, then... So, what we have done is we have created an edge-to-cloud environment where the entire rail analytics is happening. Similarly, in another group company, Hitachi Energy, they had a problem that arguably one of the largest transformer manufacturer in the world. The transformer is a pretty common name now because you're seeing what is happening in Ukraine. Russia went after the transformers and substations before the start of the winter so that their district heating can be meddled with. Now, the transformer, it had a lead time of 17 weeks before COVID. So, if you put me an order of a three-phase transformer, I can deliver it to you in 17 weeks. After and during COVID, the entire lead time increased to 57 to 58 weeks. In cases of a complex transformer, it even went up to something like two years. >> Savannah: Ooh! >> Now, they wanted to increase the productivity of their existing plant because there is only that much sheet metal, that much copper for solenoid, that much microprocessor and silicon. So, they wanted to increase the output of their factory from 95 to 105, 10 more transformers every day, which is 500 and, which is 3,650 every- >> Savannah: Year. >> Year. Now, to do that, we went to a very complex machine; it's called a guard machine. And we increased the productivity of the guard machine by just analyzing all the throttles and all the wastages which are happening there. There are multiple case studies because, see, Hitachi is an industrial giant with 105 years of body of work. KP and I just represent the tip of the digital tip of the arrow. But what we are trying to do through HARC, through industry cloud, through partnership with AWS is basically containerizing and miniaturizing our entire body of work into a democratized environment, an industrial app store, if I may say, where people can come and take their industrial outcomes at ease without worrying about their computational and network orchestration between edge and cloud. That's what we are trying to do. >> I love that analogy of an industrial app cloud. Makes it feel easier in decreasing the complexity of all the different things that everyone's factoring into making their products, whatever they're making. So, we have a new challenge here on theCUBE at AWS re:Invent, where we are looking for your 30-second hot take, your Instagram reel, sound bite. What's the most important story or theme either for you as a team or coming out of the show? You can ponder it for a second. >> It might be different. See, for me, it is industrial security. Industrial OT security should be the theme of the Western world. Western world is on the crosshairs of multiple bad actors. And the industrial security is in the chemical plants, is in the industrial plants, is in the power grids, is in our postal networks and our rail networks. They need to be secured; otherwise, we are geopolitically very weak. Gone are the days when anyone is going to pick up a battle with America or Western world on a field. The battle is going to be pretty clandestine on an cyber world. And that is why industrial security is very important. >> Critical infrastructure and protecting it. >> Absolutely. >> Well said, Sid. KP, what's your hot take? >> My take is going to be a modern operating model, which is going to complete the transformation and to be able to tap into business services from cloud. So, a modern operating model through HARC, that is going to be my take. >> Fantastic. Well, can't wait to see what comes out of Hitachi next. Sid, KP... >> KP: Thank you. >> thank you so much for being here. >> Sid: Thank you. >> Absolutely. >> Dave: Thanks, guys. >> Savannah: This is I could talk to you all about supply chain all day long. And thank all of you for tuning in to our continuous live coverage here from AWS re:Invent in fantastic Sin City. I'm Savannah. Oh, excuse me. With Dave Vellante, I'm Savannah Peterson. You're watching theCUBE, the leader in high tech coverage. (digital xylophone music)

>> Narrator: Live from Orlando, Florida it's theCUBE covering PentahoWorld 2017. Brought to you by Hitachi Vantara. >> Welcome back to sunny Orlando everybody. This is theCUBE, the leader in live tech coverage, and this is our second day covering PentahoWorld 2017. theCUBE was here in 2015 when Pentaho had just been recently acquired by Hitachi. We then, let's see, around September timeframe we saw Hitachi rebrand, Hitachi Data Systems rebrand as Hitachi Vantara, bringing together three components of its business, the Hitachi Data Systems business, the Hitachi Insights business, and of course, the Pentaho Analytics platform. We heard yesterday from Brian Householder, the president and COO of Hitachi Vantara, what the strategy was. I thought he was a very crisp, clear presenter. The strategy made a lot of sense, it resonated. Obviously a lot of execution to be done. And then subsequently at the last two days we've heard largely from Pentaho practitioners who are applying this end to end analytics platform to really transform their businesses, to really become data driven supporting those digital transformations. So pretty positive story overall. A lot of work to be done. We got to see how this whole edge to outcome plays out. Sounds good. There's got to be some execution there. We got to see the ecosystem grow for sure. These guys got a great story. This conference should explode. >> It's really a validation for Pentaho. They've been on the market for more than a decade now as the spearhead for the open source analytics revolution in business analytics, and in predictive modeling, and in data integration, all of it open source. And they've come very far and they're really a blue chip solution program. I think this show has been a great validation of Pentaho's portfolio presence in the market. Now Hitachi Vantara has a gem of a core asset. Clearly, the storage market, the data center converged infrastructure, the core Hitachi Data Systems product lines, are starting to experience the low growth that such a mature space experiences. And clearly they're placing a strong bet on Hitachi Vantara that the IoT, that the edge analytics market, will just boom wide open. Hitachi Insight Group, which was only created last year by their corporate parent, was chartered to explore opportunities in IoT. They've got the Lumata platform. They had, Hitachi Next, their conference last month, focused on IoT. I think that's really the capstone, the Lumata portfolio, in this overall story. Now, I think what we're hearing this week is that great, they've got the components, the building blocks, of potential growth, but I don't think they're going to be able to achieve takeoff growth until such time, Hitachi Vantara, they have a stronger, more credible reach out to the developer community, specifically the developers who are building the AI and machine learning for deployment to the edge. That will require to have credibility in that space. Clearly it's going to have to be the new set of frameworks, such as TensorFlow, and MXNet, and Fee-an-o, and so forth. They're going to need some sort of a modeling framework or abstraction from it that sits on top of the Pentaho platform or really across all of their offerings, including Lumata, and enables a developer to using, the mainstream application developer to use code, whether it be Python or R or Java, whatever, to build the deep learning and AI models at the highest level of abstraction, the business level of abstraction, then to automatically compile those models, which are computational graphs, down to formats that are optimized and efficient to run on devices of all sorts, chip sets of all sorts, that are increasingly resource constrained. They're not there yet. I'm not hearing that overall developer story at this show. I think they've got a lot of smart people, including Brian, pushing them in that direction. Hopefully next year's PentahoWorld or however they may rebrand this show, I think they'll probably have more of that put together, but we'll keep on waiting to see. >> And that's something that I pushed on a little bit this week. In particular, that requires a whole new go to market where the starting point is developers and then you're nurturing those developers. And certainly Pentaho has experience with community editions, but that was more to get enterprise buyers to kind of try before they buy. As you know well, Jim, the developer community is, they're very fickle, they're persnickety, they're demanding, and they're super smart, and they can be your best advocates or they'll just ignore you. That's just kind of the way it is with developers. And if you can appeal to them you can get a foothold in markets. We've seen it. Look at what Microsoft has done, look at what Amazon has done, certainly Docker, you know, on and on and on. >> Community marketing that's full bore (mumbles) user groups, developer days, hackathons, the whole nine yards, I'm not seeing a huge emphasis on community marketing in that really evangelistic sense. They need to go there seriously. They need to win the hearts and minds of the next generation developer, the next generation developer who actually won't care about whether it's TensorFlow backends or the other ones. What they will care is the high level framework, and really a collaborative framework, that's a solution provider gives them for their teams to collaborate on building and training and deploying all this stuff. I'm not hearing from this solution provider, devops really, here this year. Hopefully in the coming years there will be. Other vendors are a bit further along than they are. We see a bit further along IBM is. We see a bit further along like Cloudera and others are in putting together really a developer friendly ecosystem of components within a broader data lake framework. >> Yeah, and that's not been the historical Pentaho DNA. However, as you know, to reach out, have a community effort to reach out to developers requires resources and commitment, and it's not a one shot deal. But, it also requires a platform, and what we're seeing today is the formation of that. The reformation of Hitachi into Hitachi Vantara with a lot of resources that has a vision of a platform, of which Pentaho is a critical component, but it's going to take a lot of effort, a lot of cultivating. I presume they're having those conversations internally. They're not ready to have them externally, which is I presume why they're not having them. But that's something that we're going to certainly watch for in the coming years. What else? You gave a talk this afternoon. >> Yeah, AI is Eating the Edge, and it was well received. In fact, when I prepared my thoughts and my research about a month ago for this event I was thinking, "Am I way too far ahead?" This is Pentaho. I've been of course familiar with them since their inception. I thought, "Are there other users? "Are there developers? "Is their community going deep into AI "and all the IoT stuff?" And the last day or so here at this event it's like, "Whoa, everybody here is into that. "They know this stuff." So, not only was I relieved that I wouldn't have to explain the ABCs of all that, they were ahead of me in terms of the questions I got. The questions are, once again, what framework should we adopt for AI, the whole TensorFlow, all those framework wars, which I think are sort of overblown and they will be fairly soon, it'll be irrelevant, but those kinds of questions. Those are actually developer level questions that people are just here and they're coming to me with. >> Well, you know, I tell you, I'm no expert in frameworks, but my advice would be whatever framework you adopt you're probably not going to be using that same framework down the road. So you have to be flexible as an organization. A lot of technical leaders tell me this is look, technology is going to come and it's going to go. We got to have great people. We've got to be able to respond to the market requirements. We have to have processes that allow us to be proactive and responsive, and that your choice of framework should ensure that it doesn't constrict you in those areas. >> And you know, the framework that actually appeals to this crowd, including the people in my room, it's a wiki bot framework, it's also what Brian Hopkins of Forrester presented, the three tier architecture. There's the edge devices. There are the gateways or hubs. There's the cloud. We call them primary, secondary, tertiaries. Whatever you call them, you put different data, you put different analytics on each of those tiers. And then really in many ways in a modular fashion then you begin to orchestrate with Kubernetes and so forth these AI infused apps and these distributed architectures, like self driving vehicles or whatever. And the buzz I've been getting here, including in my session, everybody is saying, "Yeah, that's exactly the way to go." In other words, thinking in those terms prevents you as a developer from thinking that AI has to be some monolithic frigging stack on one single node. No, it actually has to be massively parallel and distributed, because these are potentially very compute intensive applications. I think there's a growing realization in the developer community that when you're talking about developing AI you're really talking about developing two core workloads. There's the inferencing, which is where the magic happens in terms of predictions and classifications, but even more resource consumptive is the training that has to happen in the cloud, and that's data, that's exabytes, petabytes intensive potentially. That's compute intensive. Very different workload. That definitely needs to happen in the cloud primarily. There's a little bit of federated training that goes out to the edge, but that's really the exception right now. So there's a growing realization in the developer community that boy, we better get a really good platform for training. And actually they could leverage, we've seen it in our research of wiki bot is that, many AI developers, many deep learning developers, actually leverage their Spark clusters for training of TensorFlow and so forth, because of in memory massive parallelism, so forth and so on. I think there will be a growing realization in the developer community that the investments they've been making in Hadoop and Spark will just be leveraged for this growing stack, for training if nothing else. >> Well, in 8.0 that was sort of the big buzz here. And you and I talked at the open with Rebecca, our other co-host, about 8.0 A lot of incremental improvements. But you know what, in talking to customers that's kind of what they want. They want Pentaho to do a good job of incorporating, curating, open source content, open source platforms and products, bringing them into their system, and making sure that their customers can take advantage of them. That's what they consistently kept asking for. They weren't freaked out about lack of AI and lack of deep learning and ML and Weka is fine. Now maybe it's a blind spot, I don't know. >> No, no, actually I've had 24 hours since they announced to chew on it. In fact, I have a SiliconANGLE article going up fairly soon with essentially my trip report and my basic takeaway. And actually what I like about 8.0 is that it focuses on streaming, bringing open source analytic streaming more completely into the Pentaho data integration platform, in other words, their stronger interoperability with Spark streaming, with Kafka, and so forth, but also they have the ability within 8.0 to better match realtime streaming workloads to execution engines in a distributed fabric. In other words, what I think that represents not only in terms of Hitachi Vantara's portfolio, but in terms of where the industry is going with all things to do with big data applications whether or not they involve AI is streaming is coming into the mainstream, pun intended, and data at rest platforms are starting to become marginalized in a lot of applications. In other words, Hadoop is data at rest par excellence, so are a fair number of other no SQL platforms. Those are not going away. Those are the core of your data lakes. But most development is being developed now, most AI and machine learning is being developed for streaming environments that increasingly are edge oriented. So Pentaho, Hitachi Vantara, for 8.0 have put in the right incremental features for the market that lies ahead. So in many ways I think that was actually a well thought out release for this particular event. >> Great. Okay, some of the highlights here. We had a lot of different industries, gaming, we had experts on autonomous vehicles, we had the NASDAQ guys on, that was a very interesting segment, the German police interview you did, the chief data officer of community colleges in Indiana. So, a lot of diversity, which underscores the platformness of Pentaho. It's not some industry specific system. It is a horizontal capabilities platform. Final thoughts on the show, some interesting things that you saw, things you learned? >> Yeah, on the show itself, they did a really good job. Hitachi Vantara, of course it's a new brand, but it's an old company, and it's even an old established set of product teams that have come together in a hurry essentially, though it's really been two years since the acquisition. They did a really good job of presenting a unified go to market message. That's a good start They've done a good job of the fact that they had these two shows in a rapid sequence, Hitachi Next, which was IoT and Lumata, but it was Hitachi Vantara, and now this one where it's all data analytics. The fact that here in the peak of fall event season they had these two shows really highlighting their innovations and their romance for those two core of their portfolio, and have done a good job of positioning themselves in each case, that shows that the teams are orchestrating well in terms of at least go to market presenting their value prop. I think in terms of the actual, we've had a lot of great customer and partner interviews on this show. And I think, you mentioned gaming first, I wasn't actually on the gaming related CUBE interview, but gaming is a hot, of course it's a hot, hot market for AI increasingly. A lot of AI that gets developed now for lots of applications involves simulations of whatever scenario you're building, including like autonomous vehicles. So gaming is in many ways a set of practices that are well established and mature that are becoming fundamental to development of all AI, because you're developing synthetic data based on simulation environments. The fact that Hitachi Vantara has strong presence as a data provider in the gaming market I think in many ways indicates that they've got ... It's a crowded marketplace. They have much larger competitors and deeper pocketed, but I think the fact is they've got all the piece parts needed to be a roaring success in this new era, and they've got strong and very loyal customers I'm discovering, not discovering, I've known this all along. But, since I've rejoined the analysts' space it's been revalidated that Pentaho how strong in blue chip they are. Now that they're a new brand in a new era, they're turning themselves around fairly well. I don't think that they'll be isolated by ... Clearly, I mean, with AI ... AI right now belongs to AWS and Microsoft and Google and IBM to some degree. We have to recognize that the Hitachi Vantaras of the world right now are still a second tier in that arena. They probably have to hitch their wagon to at least one of those core cloud providers as a core partner going forward to really prevail. >> Dave: Which they can do. >> Yeah, they can do. >> Alright. Jim, thanks very much for closing with me. Thanks to you all for watching. theCUBE puts out a lot of content. You can go to SiliconAngle.com to see all the news. theCUBE.net is where we host all these videos. Wikibon.com is our research site, so check that out, as well. We've got CrowdChats going on, CrowdChat.net. It's just unbelievable. >> Unbelievable. >> Rush of content. We're all about the data, we're all about sharing, so check those sites out. Thanks very much to the crew here. Great job. And next week a lot going on. We're in New York City. We've got some stuff going on there. Want to thank our sponsor, without whom this show, this CUBE show, would not be possible, Hitachi Vantara slash Pentaho. >> Thank you to sunny Orlando. It's great and wonderful. >> This has been theCUBE at PentahoWorld 2017. We'll see you next time. Thanks for watching. (techno music)

>> Announcer: Live, from Orlando, Florida, it's TheCUBE, covering PentahoWorld 2017. Brought to you by Hitachi Vantara. >> Welcome back to sunny Orlando everybody. This is TheCUBE, the leader in live tech coverage. My name is Dave Vellante and this is PentahoWorld, #PWorld17. Don DeLoach here, he's the co-chair of the midwest IoT council. Thanks so much for coming on TheCUBE. >> Good to be here. >> So you've just written a new book. I got it right in my hot off the presses in my hands. The Future of IoT, leveraging the shift to a data-centric world. Can you see that okay? Alright, great, how's that, you got that? Well congratulations on getting the book done. >> Thanks. >> It's like, the closest a male can come to having a baby, I guess. But, so, it's fantastic. Let's start with sort of the premise of the book. What, why'd you write it? >> Sure, I'll give you the short version, 'cause that in and of itself could go on forever. I'm a data guy by background. And for the last five or six years, I've really been passionate about IoT. And the two converged with a focus on data, but it was kind of ahead of where most people in IoT were, because they were mostly focused on sensor technology and communications, and to a limited extent, the workflow. So I kind of developed this thesis around where I thought the market was going to go. And I would have this conversation over and over and over, but it wasn't really sticking and so I decided maybe I should write a book to talk about it and it took me forever to write the book 'cause fundamentally I didn't know what I was doing. Fortunately, I was able to eventually bring on a couple of co-authors and collectively we were able to get the book written and we published it in May of this year. >> And give us the premise, how would you summarize? >> So the central thesis of the book is that the market is going to shift from a focus on IoT enabled products like a smart refrigerator or a low-fat fryer or a turbine in a factory or a power plant or whatever. It's going to shift from the IoT enabled products to the IoT enabled enterprise. If you look at the Harvard Business Review article that Jim Heppelmann and Michael Porter did in 2014, they talked about the progression from products to smart products to smart, connected products, to product systems, to system of systems. We've largely been focused on smart, connected products, or as I would call IoT enabled products. And most of the technology vendors have focused their efforts on helping the lighting vendor or the refrigerator vendor or whatever IoT enable their product. But when that moves to mass adoption of IoT, if you're the CIO or the CEO of SeaLand or Disney or Walmart or whatever, you're not going to want to be a company that has 100,000 IoT enabled products. You're going to want to be an IoT enabled company. And the difference is really all around data primacy and how that data is treated. So, right now, most of the data goes from the IoT enabled product to the product provider. And they tell you what data you can get. But that, if you look at the progression, it's almost mathematically impossible that that is sustainable because company, organizations are going to want to take my, like let's just say we're talking about a fast food restaurant. They're going to want to take the data from the low-fat fryer and the data from the refrigerator or the shake machine or the lighting system or whatever, and they're going to want to look at it in the context of the other data. And they're going to also want to combine it with their point-of-sale or crew scheduling, or inventory and then if they're smart, they'll start to even pull in external data, like pedestrian traffic or street traffic or microweather or whatever, and they'll create a much richer signature. And then, it comes down to governance, where I want to create this enriched data set, and then propagate it to the right constituent in the right time in the right way. So you still give the product provider back the data that they want, and there's nothing that precludes you from doing that. And you give the low-fat fryer provider the data that they want, but you give your regional and corporate offices a different view of the same data, and you give the FDA or your supply chain partner, it's still the same atomic data, but what you're doing is you're separating the creation of the data from the consumption of the data, and that's where you gain maximum leverage, and that's really the thesis of the book. >> It's data, great summary by the way, so it's data in context, and the context of the low-fat fryer is going to be different than the workflow within that retail operation. >> Yeah, that's right and again, this is where, the product providers have initially kind of pushed back because they feel like they have stickiness and loyalty that's bred out of that link. But, first of all, that's going to change. So if you're Walmart or a major concern and you say, "I'm going to do a lighting RFP," and there's 10 vendors that say, "Hey, we want to compete for this," and six of 'em will allow Walmart to control the data, and four say, "No, we have to control the data," their list just went to six. They're just not going to put up with that. >> Dave: Period, the end, absolutely. >> That's right. So if the product providers are smart, they're going to get ahead of this and say, "Look, I get where the market's going. "We're going to need to give you control of the data, "but I'm going to ask for a contract that says "I'm going to get the data I'm already getting, "'cause I need to get that, and you want me to get that. "But number two, I'm going to recognize that "they can give, Walmart can give me my data back, "but enrich it and contextualize it "so I get better data back." So everybody can win, but it's all about the right architecture. >> Well and the product guys going to have the Trojan horse strategy of getting in when nobody was really looking. >> Don: That's right. >> And okay, so they've got there. Do you envision, Don, a point at which the Walmart might say, "No, that's our data "and you don't get it." >> Um, not really- >> or is there going to be a quid pro quo? >> and here's why. The argument that the product providers have made all along is, almost in a condescending way sometimes, although not intentionally condescending, it's been, look, we're selling you this low-fat fryer for your fast food restaurant. And you say you want the data, but you know, we had a team of people who are experts in this. Leave that to us, we'll analyze the data and we'll give you back what you need. Now, there's some truth to the fact that they should know their products better than anybody, and if I'm the fast food chain, I want them to get that data so that they can continually analyze and help me do my job better. They just don't have to get that data at my expense. There are ways to cooperatively work this, but again, it comes back to just the right architecture. So what we call the first receiver is in essence, setting up an abstraction close to the point of the ingestion of all this data. Upon which it's cleansed, enriched, and then propagated again to the right constituent in the right time in the right way. And by the way, I would add, with the right security considerations, and with the right data privacy considerations, 'cause like, if you look around the market now, things like GEP are in Europe and what we've seen in the US just in the wake of the elections and everything around how data is treated, privacy concerns are going to be huge. So if you don't know how to treat the data in the context of how it needs to be leveraged, you're going to lose that leverage of the data. >> Well, plus the widget guys are going to say "Look, we have to do predictive maintenance "on those devices and you want us to do that." You know, they say follow the money. Let's follow the data. So, what's the data flow look like in your mind? You got these edge devices. >> Yep, physical or virtual. Doesn't have to be a physical edge. Although, in a lot of cases, there are good reasons why you'd want a physical edge, but there's nothing technologically that says you have to have a physical edge. >> Elaborate on that, would you? What do you mean by virtual? >> Sure, so let's say I have a server inside a retail outfit. And it's collecting all of my IoT data and consolidating it and persisting it into a data store and then propagating it to a variety of constituents. That would be creating the first receiver in the physical edge. There's nothing that says that that edge device can't grab that data, but then persist it in a distributed Amazon cloud instance, or a Rackspace instance or whatever. It doesn't actually need to be persisted physically on the edge, but there's no reason it can't either. >> Okay, now I understand that now. So the guys at Wikibon, which is a sort of sister company to TheCUBE, have envisioned this three tiered data model where you've got the devices at the edge where real-time activity's going on, real-time analytics, and then you've got this sort of aggregation point, I guess call it a gateway. And then you've got, and that's as I say, aggregation of all these edge devices. And then you've got the cloud where the heavy modeling is done. It could be your private cloud or your public cloud. So does that three tier model make sense to you? >> Yeah, so what you're describing as the first tier is actually the sensor layer. The gateway layer that you're describing, in the book would be characterized as the first receiver. It's basically an edge tier that is augmented to persist and enrich the data and then apply the proper governance to it. But what I would argue is, in reality, I mean, your reference architecture is spot-on. But if you actually take that one step further, it's actually an n-tier architecture. Because there's no reason why the data doesn't go from the ten franchise stores, to the regional headquarters, to the country headquarters, to the corporate headquarters, and every step along the way, including the edge, you're going to see certain types of analytics and computational work done. I'll put a plug for my friends at Hitachi Lumada in on this, you know, there's like 700 horizontal IoT platforms out there. There aren't going to be 700 winners. There's going to be probably eight to 10, and that's only because the different specific verticals will provide for more winners than it would be if it was just one like a search engine. But, the winners are going to have to have an extensible architecture that is, will ultimately allow enterprises to do the very things I'm talking about doing. And so there are a number out there, but one of the things, and Rob Tiffany, who's the CTO of Lumada, I think has a really good handle on his team on an architecture that is really plausible for accomplishing this as the market migrates into the future. >> And that architecture's got to be very flexible, not just elastic, but sometimes we use the word plastic, plasticity, being able to go in any direction. >> Well, sure, up to and including the use of digital twins and avatars and the logic that goes along with that and the ability to spin something up and spin something down gives you that flexibility that you as an enterprise, especially the larger the enterprise, the more important that becomes, need. >> How much of the data, Don, at that edge do you think will be persisted, two part question? It's not all going to be persisted, is it? Isn't that too expensive? Is it necessary to persist all of that data? >> Well, no. So this is where, you'll hear the notion of data exhaust. What that really means is, let's just say I'm instrumenting every room in this hotel and each room has six different sensors in it and I'm taking a reading once a second. The ratio of inconsequential to consequential data is probably going to be over 99 to one. So it doesn't really make sense to persist that data and it sure as hell doesn't make sense to take that data and push it into a cloud where I spend more to reduce the value of the payload. That's just dumb. But what will happen is that, there are two things, one, I think people will see the value in locally persisting the data that has value, the consequential data, and doing that in a way that's stored at least for some period of time so you can run the type of edge analytics that might benefit from having that persisted store. The other thing that I think will happen, and this is, I don't talk much, I talk a little bit about it in the book, but there's this whole notion where when we get to the volumes of data that we really talk about where IoT will go by like 2025, it's going to push the physical limitations of how we can accommodate that. So people will begin to use techniques like developing statistical metadata models that are a highly accurate metadata representation of the entirety of the data set, but probably in about one percent of the space that's queryable and suitable for machine learning where it's going to enable you to do what you just physically couldn't do before. So that's a little bit into the future, but there are people doing some fabulous work on that right now and that'll creep into the overall lexicon over time. >> Is that a lightweight digital twin that gives you substantially the same insight? >> It could augment the digital twin in ways that allow you to stand up digital twins where you might not be able to before. The thing that, the example that most people would know about are, like in the Apache ecosystem, there are toolsets like SnappyData that are basically doing approximation, but they're doing it via sampling. And that is a step in that direction, but what you're looking for is very high value approximation that doesn't lose the outlier. So like in IoT, one of the things you normally are looking for is where am I going to pick up on anomalous behavior? Well if I'm using a sample set, and I'm only taking 15%, I by definition am going to lose a lot of that anomalous behavior. So it has to be a holistic representation of the data, but what happens is that that data is transformed into statistics that can be queryable as if it was the atomic data set, but what you're getting is a very high value approximation in a fraction of the space and time and resources. >> Ok, but that's not sampling. >> No, it's statistical metadata. There are, there's a, my last company had developed a thing that we called approximate query, and it was based on that exact set of patents around the formation of a statistical metadata model. It just so happens it's absolutely suited for where IoT is going. It's kind of, IoT isn't really there yet. People are still trying to figure out the edge in its most basic forms, but the sheer weight of the data and the progression of the market is going to force people to be innovative in how they look at some of these things. Just like, if you look at things like privacy, right now, people think in terms of anonymization. And that's, basically, I'm going to de-link data contextually where I'm going to effectively lose the linkages to the context in order to conform with data privacy. But there are techniques, like if you look at GDCAR, their techniques, within certain safe harbors, that allow you to pseudonymize the data where you can actually relink it under certain conditions. And there are some smart people out there solving these problems. That's where the market's going to go, it's just going to get there over time. And what I would also add to this equation is, at the end of the day, right now, the concepts that are in the book about the first receiver and the create, the abstraction of the creation of the data from the consumption of the data, look, it's a pretty basic thing, but it's the type of shift that is going to be required for enterprises to truly leverage the data. The things about statistical metadata and pseudonymization, pseudonymization will come before the statistical metadata. But the market forces are going to drive more and more into those areas, but you got to walk before you run. Right now, most people still have silos, which is interesting, because when you think about the whole notion of the internet of things, it infers that it's this exploitation of understanding the state of physical assets in a very broad based environment. And yet, the funny thing is, most IoT devices are silos that emulate M2M, sort of peer to peer networks just using the internet as a communication vehicle. But that'll change. >> Right, and that's really again, back to the premise of the book. We're going from these individual products, where all the data is locked into the product silo, to this digital fabric, that is an enterprise context, not a product context. >> That's right and if you go to the toolsets that Pentaho offers, the analytic toolsets. Let's just say, now that I've got this rich data set, assuming I'm following basic architectural principles so that I can leverage the maximum amount of data, that now gives me the ability to use these type of toolsets to do far better operational analytics to know what's going on, far better forensic analysis and investigative analytics to mine through the date and do root cause analysis, far better predictive analytics and prescriptive analytics to figure out what will go on, and ultimately feed the machine learning algorithms ultimately to get to in essence, the living organism, the adaptive systems that are continuously changing and adapting to circumstances. That's kind of the Holy Grail. >> You mentioned Hitachi Vantara before. I'm curious what your thoughts are on the Hitachi, you know, two years ago, we saw the acquisition, said, okay, now what? And you know, on paper it sounded good, and now it starts to come together, it starts to make more sense. You know, storage is going to the cloud. HDS says, alright, well we got this Hitachi relationship. But what do you make of that? How do you assess it, and where do you see it going? >> First of all, I actually think the moves that they've done are good. And I would not say that if I didn't think it. I'd just find a politically correct way not to say that. But I do think it's good. So they created the Hitachi Insight Group about a year and a half ago, and now that's been folded into Hitachin Vantara, alongside HDS and Pentaho and I think that it's a fairly logical set of elements coming together. I think they're going down the right path. In full disclosure, I worked for Hitachi Data Systems from '91 til '94, so it's not like I'm a recent employee of them, it's 25 years ago, but my experience with Hitachi corporate and the way they approach things has been unlike a lot of really super large companies, who may be super large, but may not be the best engineers, or may not always get everything done so well, Hitachi's a really formidable organization. And I think what they're doing with Pentaho and HDS and the Insight Group and specifically Lumada, is well thought out and I'm optimistic about where they're going. And by the way, they won't be the only winner in the equation. There's going to be eight or nine different key players, but they'll, I would not short them whatsoever. I have high hopes for them. >> The TAM is enormous. Normally, Hitachi eventually gets to where it wants to go. It's a very thoughtful company. I've been watching them for 30 years. But to a lot of people, the Pentaho and the Insight's play make a lot of sense, and then HDS, you used to work for HDS, lot of infrastructure still, lot of hardware, but a relationship with Hitachi Limited, that is quite strong, where do you see that fit, that third piece of the stool? >> So, this is where there's a few companies that have unique advantages, with Hitachi being one of them. Because if you think about IoT, IoT is the intersection of information technology and operational technology. So it's one thing to say, "I know how to build a database." or "I can build machine learning algorithms," or whatever. It's another thing to say, "I know how to build trains "or CAT scans or smart city lighting systems." And the domain expertise married with the technology delivers a set of capabilities that you can't match without that domain expertise. And, I mean, if you even just reduce it down to artificial intelligence and machine learning, you get an expert ML or AI guy, and they're only as good as the limits of their domain expertise. So that's why, and again, that's why I go back to the comparison to search engines, where there's going to be like, there's Google and maybe Yahoo. There's probably going to be more platform winners because the vertical expertise is going to be very, very important, but there's not going to be 700 of 'em. But Hitachi has an advantage that they bring to the table, 'cause they have very deep roots in energy, in medical equipment, in transportation. All of that will manifest itself in what they're doing in a big way, I think. >> Okay, so, but a lot of the things that you described, and help me understand this, are Hitachi Limited. Now of course, Hitachi Data Systems started as, National Advance Systems was a distribution arm for Hitachi IT products. >> Don: Right, good for you, not many people remember. >> I'm old. So, like I said, I had a 30 year history with this company. Do you foresee that that, and by the way, interestingly, was often criticized back when you were working for HDS, it was like, it's still a distribution hub, but in the last decade, HDS has become much more of a contributor to the innovation and the product strategy and so forth. Having said that, it seems to me advantageous if some of those things you discussed, the trains, the medical equipment, can start flowing back through HDS. I'm not sure if that's explicitly the plan. I didn't necessarily hear that, but it sort of has to, right? >> Well, I'm not privy to those discussions, so it would be conjecture on my part. >> Let's opine, but right, doesn't that make sense? >> Don: It makes perfect sense. >> Because, I mean HDS for years was just this storage silo. And then storage became a very uninteresting business, and credit to Hitachi for pivoting. But it seems to me that they could really, and they probably have a, I had Brian Householder on earlier I wish I had explored this more with him. But it just seems, the question for them is, okay, how are you going to tap those really diverse businesses. I mean, it's a business like a GE or a Siemens. I mean, it's very broad based. >> Well, again, conjecture on my part, but one way I would do it would be to start using Lumada in the various operations, the domain-specific operations right now with Hitachi. Whether they plan to do that or not, I'm not sure of. I've heard that they probably will. >> That's a data play, obviously, right? >> Well it's a platform play. And it's enabling technology that should augment what's already going on in the various elements of Hitachi. Again, I'm, this is conjecture on my part. But you asked, let's just go with this. I would say that makes a lot of sense. I'd be surprised if they don't do that. And I think in the process of doing that, you start to crosspollinate that expertise that gives you a unique advantage. It goes back to if you have unique advantages, you can choose to exploit them or not. Very few companies have the set of unique advantages that somebody like Hitachi has in terms of their engineering and massive reach into so many, you know, Hitachi, GE, Siemens, these are companies that have big reach to the extent that they exploit them or not. One of the things about Hitachi that's different than almost anybody though is they have all this domain expertise, but they've been in the technology-specific business for a long time as well, making computers. And so, they actually already have the internal expertise to crosspollinate, but you know, whether they do it or not, time will tell. >> Well, but it's interesting to watch the big whales, the horses in the track, if you will. Certainly GE has made a lot of noise, like, okay, we're a software company. And now you're seeing, wow, that's not so easy, and then again, I'm sanguine about GE. I think eventually they'll get there. And then you see IBM's got their sort of IoT division. They're bringing in people. Another company with a lot of IT expertise. Not a lot of OT expertise. And then you see Hitachi, who's actually got both. Siemens I don't know as well, but presumably, they're more OT than IT and so you would think that if you had to evaluate the companies' positions, that Hitachi's in a unique position. Certainly have a lot of software. We'll see if they can leverage that in the data play, obviously Pentaho is a key piece of that. >> One would assume, yeah for sure. No, I mean, I again, I think, I'm very optimistic about their future. I think very highly of the people I know inside that I think are playing a role here. You know, it's not like there aren't people at GE that I think highly of, but listen, you know, San Ramon was something that was spun up recently. Hitachi's been doing this for years and years and years. You know, so different players have different capabilities, but Hitachi seems to have sort of a holistic set of capabilities that they can bring together and to date, I've been very impressed with how they've been going about it. And especially with the architecture that they're bringing to bear with Lumada. >> Okay, the book is The Future of IoT, leveraging the shift to a data-centric world. Don DeLoach, and you had a co-author here as well. >> I had two co-authors. One is Wael Elrifai from Pentaho, Hitachi Vantara and the other is Emil Berthelsen, a Gartner analyst who was with Machina Research and then Gartner acquired them and Emil has stayed on with them. Both of them great guys and we wouldn't have this book if it weren't for the three of us together. I never would have pulled this off on my own, so it's a collective work. >> Don DeLoach, great having you on TheCUBE. Thanks very much for coming on. Alright, keep it right there buddy. We'll be back. This is PentahoWorld 2017, and this is TheCUBE. Be right back.

>> Announcer: Live from Orlando, Florida. It's TheCUBE covering PentahoWorld 2017. Brought to you by Hitachi Ventara. >> Welcome back to TheCUBE's live coverage of PentahoWorld brought to you by Hitachi Ventara, we are wrapping up day one. I'm your host Rebecca Knight along with my cohosts today James Kobielus and Dave Vellante. Guys, day one is done what have we learned? What's been the most exciting thing that you've seen at this conference? >> The most exciting thing is that clearly Hitachi Ventara which of course, Pentaho is a centerpiece is very much building on their strong background and legacy and open analytics, and pushing towards open analytics in the Internet of things, their portfolio, the whole edge to outcome theme, with Brian Householder doing a sensational Keynote this morning, laying out their strategic directions now Dave had a great conversation with him on TheCUBE earlier but I was very impressed with the fact that they've got a dynamic leader and a dynamic strategy, and just as important Hitachi, the parent company, has clearly put together three product units that make sense. You got strong data integration, you got a strong industrial IOT focus, and you got a really strong predictive and machine learning capability with Pentaho for the driving the entire pipeline towards the edge. Now that to me shows that they've got all the basic strategic components necessary to seize the future, further possibilities. Now, they brought a lot of really good customers on, including our latest one from IMS, Hillove, to discuss exactly what they're doing in that area. So I was impressed with the amount of solid substance of them seizing the opportunity. >> Well so I go back two years, when TheCUBE first did PentagoWorld 2015, and the story then was pretty strong. You had a company in big data, they seemingly were successful, they had a lot of good customer references, they achieved escape velocity, and had a nice exit under Quentin Galavine, who was the CEO at the time and the team. And they had a really really good story, I thought. But I was like okay, now what? We heard about conceptually we're going to bring the industrial internet and analytics together, and then it kind of got quiet for two years. And now, you're starting to see the strategy take shape in typical Hitachi form. They tend not to just rush in to big changes and transformations like this, they've been around for a long time, a very thoughtful company. I kind of look at Hitachi limited in a way, as an IBM like company of Japan, even though they do industrial equipment, and IBM's obviously in a somewhat different business, but they're very thoughtful. And so I like the story the problem I see is not enough people know about the story. Brian was very transparent this morning, how many people do business with Hitachi? Very few. And so I want to see the ecosystem grow. The ecosystem here is Hitachi, a couple of big data players, I don't see any reason why they can't explode this event and the ecosystem around Hitachi Ventara, to fulfill it's vision. I think that that's a key aspect of what they have to do. >> I want to see-- >> What will be the tipping point? Just to get as you said, I mean it's the brand awareness, and every customer we had on the show really said, when he when he said that my eyes lit up and I thought oh wow, we could actually be doing more stuff with Hitachi, there's more here. >> I want to see a strong developer focus, >> Yeah. >> Going forward, that focuses on AI and deep learning at the at the edge. I'm not hearing a lot of that here at PentahoWorld, of that rate now. So that to me is a strategic gap right now and what they're offering. When everybody across the IT and data and so forth is going real deep on things like frameworks like TensorFlow and so forth, for building evermore sophisticated, data driven algorithms with the full training pipeline and deployment and all that, I'm not hearing a lot of that from the Pentaho product group or from the Hitachi Ventara group here at this event. So next year at this event I would like to hear more of what they're doing in that area. For them to really succeed, they're going to have to have a solid strategy to migrate up there, openstack to include like I said, a bit of TensorFlow, MXNet, or some of the other deep learning tool kits that are becoming essentially defacto standards with developers. >> Yeah, so I mean I think the vision's right. Many of the pieces are in place, and the pieces that aren't there, I'm actually not that worried about, because Hitachi has the resources to go get them, either build them organically, which has proven it can do overtime, or bring in acquisition. Hitachi is a decent acquire of companies. Its content platform came in on an acquisition, I've seen them do some hardware acquisitions, some have worked, some haven't. But there's a lot of interesting software players out there and I think there's some values, frankly. The big data, tons of money poured in to this open source world, hard to make money in opensource, which means I think companies like Hitachi could pick off to do some M and A and find some value. Personally, I think if the numbers right at a half a billion dollars, I personally think that that was pretty good value for Hitachi. You see in all these multi billion dollar acquisitions going left and right. And so the other thing is the fact that Hitachi under the leadership under Brian Householder and others, was able to shift its model from 80% hardware, now it's 50/50 software and services I'd like to dig into that a little bit. They're a public company but you can't really peel the onion on the Hitachi Ventara side, so it kind of is what they say it is, I would imagine that's a lot of infrastructure software, kind of like EMC's a software company. >> James: Right. >> But nonetheless, they're moving towards a subscription model, they're committed to that, and I think that the other thing is that a lot of costumers. We come to a lot of shows and they struggle to get costumers on with substantive stories, so we heard virtually every costumer we talked to today is like Here's how I'm using Pentaho, here's how it's affecting. Not like super sexy stories yet, I mean that's what the IOT and the edge piece come in, but fundamental plumbing around big data, Pentaho seems like a pretty important piece of it. >> Their fundamental-- >> Their fundamental plumbing that's really saving them a lot of money too, and having a big ROI. >> They're fairly blue-chip as a solution provider of a full core data of a portfolio of Pentaho. I think of them in many ways as sort of like SAP, not a flashy vendor, but a very much a solid blue-chip in their core markets >> Right. >> I'm just naming another vendor that I don't see with a strong AI focus yet. >> Yeah. >> Pentaho, nothing to sneeze at when you have one customer after another like we've had here, rolling out some significant work they've been doing with Pantaho for quite a while, not to sneeze at their delivering value but they have to rise to the next level of value before long, to avoid be left in the dust. >> You got this data obviously they're going to be capturing more more data with the devices. >> James: Yeah. >> And The relationship with Hitachi proper, the elevator makers is still a little fuzzy to me, I'm trying to understand how that all shakes up, but my question for you Jim is: okay so let's assume for second they're going to have this infrastructure in place because they are industrial internet, and they got the analytics platform, maybe there's some holes that they can fill in, one being AI and some of the deep learning stuff, can't they get that somewhere? I mean there's so much action going on-- >> Yes. >> In the AI world, can't they bring that in and learn how to apply it overtime? >> Of course they can. First of all they can acquire and tap their own internal expertise. They've got like Mark Hall for example on the panel, they've obviously got a deep bench of data scientist like him who can take it to that next level, that's important. I think another thing that Hitachi Ventara needs to do to take it to the next level is they need a strong robotics portfolio. It's really talking about industrial internet of things, it's robotics with AI inside. I think they're definitely a company that could go there fairly quickly, a wide range of partners they can bring in or acquire to get fairly significant in terms of not just robotics in general, but robotics for a broad range of use cases where the AI is not so much the supervise learning and stuff that involves training, but things like reinforcement learning, and there's a fair amount of smarts and academe on Reinforcement learning for in body cognition, for robots, that's out there in terms of that's like the untapped space other than the broad AI portfolio, reinforcement learning. If somebody's going to innovate and differentiate themselves in terms of the enterprise, in terms of leveraging robotics in a variety of applications, it's going to to be somebody with a really strong grounding and reinforcement learning and productizing that and baking that in to an actual solution portfolio, I don't see yet the Google's and the IBM's and the Microsofts going there, and so if these guys want to stand out, that's one area they might explore. >> Yeah, and I think to pick up on that, I think this notion of robotics process automation, that market's going to explode. We were at a conference this week in Boston, the data rowdy of Boston, the chief data officer conference at the Park Plaza, 20 to 25% of the audiences, the CDO's in the audience had some kind of RPA, robotic process automation, initiative going on which I thought was astoundingly high. And so it would seem to me that Hitachi's going to be in a good position to capture all that data. The other thing that Brian stressed, which a lot of companies without a cloud will stress, is that it's your data, you own the data, we're not trying to resell that data, monetize that data, repackage that data. I pushed him a little bit on well what about that data training models, and where do those models go? And he says Look we are not in the business of taking models and you know as a big consultancy, and bringing it over to other competitors. Now Hitachi does have consultancy, but it's sort of in a focus, but as Brian said in his keynote, you have to listen to what people say and then watch them to see how they act. >> Rebecca: Do they walk the walk? >> How they respond. >> Right. >> And so that's you have to make your decision, but I do think that's going to be a very interesting field to watch because Hitachi's going to have so much data in their devices. Of course they're going to mine that data for things like predictive analytics, those devices are going to be in factories, they're going to be in ecosystems, and there's going to be a battle for who owns the data, and it's going to be really interesting to see how that shakes out. >> So I want to ask you both, as you've both have said, we've had a lot of great customer stories here on TheCUBE today. We had a woman who does autonomous vehicles, we had a gamer from Finland, we had a benefit scientist out of Massachusetts, Who were your favorite customer stories and what excited you most about their stories? >> James: Hmmm. >> Well I know you like the car woman. >> Well, yeah the car woman, >> The car woman. >> Ella Hillel. >> Ella Hillel, Yes. >> The PHD. That was really what I found many things fascinating, I was on a panel with Ella as well as she was on TheCUBE, what I found interesting I was expecting her to go to town on all things autonomous driving, self driving vehicles, and so forth, was she actually talked about the augmentation of the driver, passenger experience through analytics, dashboards in the sense that dashboards that help not only drivers but insurance companies and fleet managers, to do behavioral modification to help them modify the behavior, to get the most out of their vehicular experience, like reducing wear and tear on tires, and by taking better roads, or revising I thought that's kind of interesting; build more of the recommendation engine capability into the overall driving experience. That depends on an infrastructure of predictive analytics and big data, but also metered data coming from the vehicle and so forth. I found that really interesting because they're doing work clearly in that area, that's an area that you don't need levels one through five of self driving vehicles to get that. You can get that at any level of that whole model, just by bringing those analytics somehow into an organic way hopefully safely, into your current driving experience, maybe through a heads-up display that's integrated through your GPS or whatever might be, I found that interesting because that's something you could roll out universally, and it can actually make a huge difference in A: safety, B: people's sort of pleasure with the driving experience, Fahrvergnugen that's a Volkswagon, and then also see how people make the best use of their own vehicular assets in an era where people still mostly own their own car. >> Well for me if there's gambling involved-- >> Rebecca: You're there. >> It was the gaming, now not only because of the gambling, and we didn't find out how to beat the house Leonard, maybe next time, but it was confirmation of the three-tier data model from from edge-- >> James: Yes. >> To gateway to cloud, and that the cloud is two vectors; the on-premise and the off-premise cloud, and the fact that as a gaming company who designs their own slot machines it's an edge device, and they're basically instrumenting that edge device for real-time interactions. He said that most of the data will go back, I'm not sure. Maybe in that situation it might, maybe all the data will go back like weather data, it all comes back, But generally speaking I think there's going to be a lot of analog data at the edge that's going to be digitize that maybe you don't have to save and persist. But anyway, confirmation of that three-tiered data model I think is important because I think that is how Brian talked about it, we all know the pendulum is swinging, swung away from mainframe to decentralize back to the centralized data center and now it's swinging again to a much more distributed sort of data architecture. So it was good to hear confirmation of that, and I think it's again, it's really early innings in terms of how that all shakes out. >> Great, and we'll know more tomorrow at Pentaho day two, and I look forward to to being up here again with both of you tomorrow. >> Likewise. >> Great, this has been TheCUBE's live coverage of PentahoWorld brought to you by Hitachi Ventara, I'm Rebecca Knight for Jim Kobielus and Dave Vellante, we'll see you back here tomorrow.

(upbeat music) >> Announcer: Live from Orlando Florida, it's theCUBE covering PentahoWorld 2017. Brought to you by Hitachi Vantara. >> Welcome back to theCUBE's live coverage of PentahoWorld, brought to you of course by Hitachi Vantara. My name is Rebecca Knight, and I'm here with Dave Vellante, my co-host. We are joined by Nathan Hart, he is the Development Manager at NextGear Capital. Thanks so much for coming on theCUBE, Nathan. >> Thanks for having me. >> So let's start by telling our viewers a little bit about what NextGear Capital is, and what you do there. >> Sure, NextGear Capital is a, we do auto financing for auto dealerships, so if a dealer goes to an auction and wants to buy some inventory, we're going to be the ones who actually finance that and purchase it for them, and then they pay us back. >> Great, and your role as a development manager. >> Yep, I am over our integrations team, so we are responsible for basically getting data in and out of the company, a lot of that is getting data to and from our sister companies, all under Cox Automotive. >> And the data we're talking about is? >> Uh, it's a whole lot of things, obviously it's a lot of financial data, as we are a finance company, but a lot of things like inventory, unit statuses, where a car is located, we have credit scores, and that sort of work as well, so all kinds of data are coming in and out and then into our systems. >> So, are the cars instrumented to the point where you can kind of track where they are in an automated way, or is it? >> Yes, we do have some GPS units, not on all that inventory, just because we have quite a few open floor plans, about 500,000 I believe. But yes, we do have some select units that are GPS'd that we can track that way, or we have inspectors that go to lots. >> Okay so as a developer you know this story well, back in the day if you had a big data problem, you'd buy a Unix box and you'd stuff all the data in there and then you'd buy a bunch of Oracle licenses, and if you had any money left over, you could maybe do something, maybe buy a little storage, or conduct business. Okay that changed, quite dramatically. I wonder, if you could tell us your version of that story and how it's affected your business. >> Sure, so, uh. (laughter) >> Dave: Is it a fair representation? >> Not, not... >> Dave: Is the old world, was it a big data warehouse world? >> Yeah, so. >> Where it's sort of expensive to get stuff in and get stuff out and has that changed? Or is that sort of? >> Yeah, it has changed greatly, we're not quite that bad, but we do currently have an older monolithic database system that we are trying to get away from. >> Dave: It's hard. >> Yeah, exactly. And so a lot of our processes right now, go in and come out of this so obviously, if anything in that breaks, it hurts everywhere. >> Dave: Right. >> So yes. >> Dave: Sort of a chain reaction. >> Exactly. >> Okay, but so how have you, talk about the journey of bringing in Pentaho and how that has affected you. >> Sure, Pentaho has been great for us, just in terms of being able to be really flexible with our data. Like I said, we're trying to get away from this monolithic service, so we have, in Pentaho, we can easily branch off and say, go to the monolithic database, but also talk to another service that is going to replace it. And then it's just one click of a button, and now this is off, this is on, or we can do both and have some replication going, just so we have that flexibility, and that kind of adaptability around those changes. >> So why Pentaho, I mean, a lot of tools out there, there's open source, you could roll your own, you could do everything in the cloud, why Pentaho? >> We liked Pentaho because of the, I guess the freedom and independence it kind of offers, in the sense that it allows us to have a large set of steps and tools that are already prebuilt, that we can just use right out of the box, and, it's just a massive library, far greater than most of the competition that we looked at. And then it also is just built on this great Java platform that we can, if we need to, write a custom Java class, pop it in, and then that can do what we need to, if we don't have something out of the box. >> Dave: So it's integrated, >> Yep >> but it's customizable. >> Nathan: Exactly. >> If you need it to be. >> Nathan: Yep. >> Okay, and one of the things that customers like you tell us about Pentaho is that they like the sort of end-to-end integration. >> Nathan: Yep. >> We were talking off camera, you had mentioned that you've got an initiative to move toward the cloud. Maybe you could talk about that a little bit. >> Yeah, so right now, just Cox, as a whole, is kind of investigating the cloud. I definitely don't want to speak out of turn, or say we're definitely going there, but that is the current initiatives are to start experimenting with how we can leverage this more. I know one of the, kind of the first steps that we're taking towards that is we have large archives, we keep all of the files we've ever received or sent out, and we don't access them much, we don't need them much, but we want to keep them, just so we have this history, and we can always look back if we need to. So using the cloud for something like that, where's it's just like a deep storage, where we can just upload it and forget it, and if we ever need it, it's there and easily accessible, and this way we don't have to pay for as much storage on print. >> Very workload specific, cheap storage. >> Nathan: Yep. >> Probably a lot of test and dev. >> Nathan: Exactly. >> So going back to the Pentaho, and why Pentaho, and you mentioned the freedom and the flexibility that it provides, can you talk about some of the best practices that you've discovered that could help some other Hitachi Vantara customers? >> Absolutely, the biggest change, learning curve that we went through, my first introduction was Pentaho when I started at NextGear, and it was a real huge learning curve for the whole team. We all started within about a month of each other, and there were only three of us to start. So, it was a real learning curve of, okay, here's how we do this, here's how we do this. So, once we kind of got the workflow going and understanding what we were trying to do, the next step was figuring out okay we can make this very modular, we can build a sub job that does a very specific task, and we can use it everywhere. And we just did that again and again and again, so now we have a library of about 118 different utilities that we can just plug and drop anywhere and they just do what they need to do, we don't need to re-test them, we don't need to think about them ever. And of course, if we update one of those, it updates every single job that it touches. As soon as we kind of unlocked that and figured we didn't have to make a custom solution for every single job, that we could use a lot of reuseability. It really sped up our development, and how we do things. >> Could you talk about data sources, have they or how have they evolved over the last decade? >> Sure, I can't speak for the whole decade, I haven't actually been in the industry that long, but a lot of what we came into and inherited when I came in, were flat files, just everything is CSV, TXT, either in or out, and we still do a lot of that, that's still kind of our bread and butter, just by the nature of our current role, but as it's changing we are interacting more and more with APIs. We're shifting away from this monolithic database into micro services so we're having to interact with those a lot more and figure out how we can get that real time communication and get the data where it needs to go so it's all in its happy place. >> One of the things that Brian Householder, the CEO, got up on the main stage and talked about how, for companies, the two most important assets are the people and the data. I want to talk to you about the people aspect. >> Nathan: Okay. >> We're hearing so much about the shortage, the tech shortage of data scientists, and other kinds of talent in this industry. How hard is it for you to recruit? Your company, as you said, is based in Carmel, Indiana is that right? >> Nathan: Yep. >> What are you finding out there? >> The greater Indianapolis area, like many other places, is very starved for tech talent. It's very, very easy as a developer to throw a stone and get an interview. It's definitely a challenge. We actually currently have two openings on my team. Just, do less with more and do what we can. So, it's definitely a challenge, but I think that there's a lot of really great young talent coming out of colleges right now that are coming in, they've grown up with this right? They're a lot further along than necessarily I was when I came out of school and some of our other developers. So they can step in and already understand a lot of these complex architectures that we're dealing with and can just hit the ground running. >> So at least 10 times a week, I get somebody hitting me on LinkedIn about hey do you need development resources? (Nathan laughing) As a developer, it must happen to you 100 times a week, but there's obviously challenges of off-shoring and managing that remotely. I'm sure you've thought about it. What are your thoughts on off-shoring? You want someone there in a bee hive effect? Maybe talk about that a little bit. So, at NextGear we've been fairly rigid about butts in the seats, in the office, real collaborative environment, where you're at the morning stand up, you're there in the meetings, and it's a very present environment. And we are being a little bit more adaptable with that, just as time changes and other companies, obviously do offer more remote from home or what have you, so that is shifting a little bit, as far as necessarily off-shoring, that's way above my pay grade to even make that call, I have worked in previous environments where that was a large part of it. In a previously life we had a US based team and then we had a Malaysia based team, and I thought it was a really great experience cause we basically all had our own counterparts over there, so at the end of your day, you just email your notes, here's what I did today, here's where I left off, and they pick it up and do the same, then we had about a weekly meeting. So I think it definitely can work, I'm all for the global tech community all coming up together, when appropriate and when it works. >> But you've got to have the right infrastructure and processes in place, >> Nathan: Absolutely. >> Or it's just, it sucks all your productivity out. >> Nathan: Absolutely, if you spend half your day trying to figure out what the other person did, then you've lost your day. >> Yeah, right. And you follow the sun, yes and no right, you've got to wait for the sun sometimes. Pentaho, back to Pentaho, what are the things that, as a customer, you want them to do. What's on their to-do list, you know, when you're talking to Donna Prlich and her team, what are you pushing them for? >> So, the biggest things kind of on our wish list and that we're seeing is interacting more natively with those microservices like I mentioned and I was really glad that that came up in the keynote as something that they're focusing on and it's something that is going to come up in 8.0, at least the kind of stepping stones to go in that direction. So, that's really exciting stuff for us, just it answers a lot of questions we're currently having of how are we going to interact with those, and the answer can still be Pentaho moving forward. >> I was struck in the keynote, when Brian was asking hands up please, how many people are doing business with Hitachi outside of Pentaho, and just a smattering, right, I presume your hand was down. >> Nathan: My hand was down. >> And then, had you heard of Hitachi Vantara? >> I read the press release when they first announced Vantara, but that's about the extent of it. Obviously I knew about Hitachi from when they purchased Pentaho. We actually were having a week long, kind of a tech support get together that week that it happened, so I think on the Tuesday or something, our rep was like I now work for Hitachi. It was a fun thing, but yeah I'm not terribly familiar with Hitachi's products or, obviously I know where they're going with the Vantara concept, but. >> As a developer in a very focused area, >> Yep. >> Cox Automotive, obviously has some IOT initiatives, I'm sure, >> Absolutely. >> And some process automation, but I presume you haven't really dug into that yet, but when you think about the messaging that you heard this morning. What does it mean to you? Do you say, okay, nice, but I've got other problems? Or do you see the potential to leverage some of the technologies down the road? I definitely see the potential to start, at least exploring that direction, and figuring out what can we get out of this, right. It makes a lot more sense to play in a singular ecosystem and have all those tools at our hand just in one bucket instead of trying to figure out how does this play nice with this, how does this play nice over here, if we just can have a singular ecosystem that does it all together, that definitely makes our jobs a lot easier. >> How about the event, is this your first PentahoWorld? >> Yep, this is my first PentahoWorld. >> So it's early, but why do you come to events like this, and what do you hope to take away? >> Sure, I came to this event, cause I was specifically invited to. That's really it. It was nothing more than that, but I definitely come to kind of, see what's next and learn about the new technologies, and get that chance to visit some of the booths and some of the breakout sessions for maybe things that I don't get to do in my day to day life. We're very heads down in PDI so I don't get to spend too much time learning about the analytics and playing with those tools. So it's a lot of fun to come here and kind of see what's out there and be like, oh could we leverage this, or how could I adapt, or what are some of the other professionals doing that maybe I can bring back and improve our processes. >> And it's early days, but what are your thoughts on 8.0? >> I liked what I saw, and then I stopped by the booth and got another demo and I can definitely already see a couple of use cases where we can improve existing jobs with some of the new streaming features that they have in play, so I'm excited for that to come out and for us to start working with that. >> So that, the integration of streaming, Kafka, and the like was appealing to you? >> Yep, absolutely, and that'll be something that we can probably use right out of the gate, so excited for that. >> Well great, Nathan thank you so much for coming on theCUBE. >> Nathan: Yeah, thank you. >> I'm Rebecca Knight for Dave Vellante, we will have more from PentahoWorld just after this. (upbeat music)

>> Narrator: Live from Orlando, Florida, its theCUBE. Covering Pentaho World 2017. Brought to you by Hitachi Vantara. >> We are kicking off day one of Pentaho World. Brought to you, of course, by Hitachi Vantara. I'm your host, Rebecca Knight, along with my co-hosts. We have Dave Vellante and James Kobielus. Guys I'm thrilled to be here in Orlando, Florida. Kicking off Pentaho World with theCUBE. >> Hey Rebecca, twice in one week. >> I know, this is very exciting, very exciting. So we were just listening to the key notes. We heard a lot about the big three, the power of the big three. Which is internet of things, predictive analytics, big data. So the question for you both is where is Hitachi Vantara in this marketplace? And are they doing what they need to do to win? >> Well so the first big question everyone is asking is what the heck is Hitachi-Vantara? (laughing) What is that? >> Maybe we should have started there. >> We joke, some people say it sounds like a SUV, Japanese company, blah blah blah. When we talked to Brian-- >> Jim: A well engineered SUV. >> So Brian Householder told us, well you know it really is about vantage and vantage points. And when you listen to their angles on insights and data, anywhere and however you want it. So they're trying to give their customers an advantage and a vantage point on data and insights. So that's kind of interesting and cool branding. The second big, I think, point is Hitachi has undergone a massive transformation itself. Certainly Hitachi America, which is really not a brand they use anymore, but Hitachi Data Systems. Brian Householder talked in his keynote, when he came in 14 years ago, Hitachi was 80 percent hardware, and infrastructure, and storage. And they've transformed that. They're about 50/50 last year. In terms of infrastructure versus software and services. But what they've done, in my view, is taken now the next step. I think Hitachi has said, alright listen, storage is going to the cloud, Dell and EMC are knocking each others head off. China is coming in to play. Do we really want to try and dominate that business? Rather, why don't we play from our strengths? Which is devices, internet of things, the industrial internet. So they buy Pentaho two years ago, and we're going to talk more about that, bring in an analytics platform. And this sort of marrying IT and OT, information technology and operation technology, together to go attack what is a trillion dollar marketplace. >> That's it so Pentaho was a very strategic acquisition. For Hitachi, of course, Hitachi data system plus Hitachi insides, plus Pentaho equals Hitachi Vantara. Pentaho was one of the pioneering vendors more than a decade ago. In the whole open source analytics arena. If you cast your mind back to the middle millennium decade, open source was starting to come into its own. Of course, we already had Linux an so forth, but in terms of the data world, we're talking about the pre-Hadoop era, the pre-Spark era. We're talking about the pre-TensorFlow era. Pentaho, I should say at that time. Which is, by the way, now a product group within Hitachi Vantara. It's not a stand alone company. Pentaho established itself as the spearhead for open-source, predictive analytics, and data mining. They made something called Weka, which is an open-source data mining toolkit that was actually developed initially in New Zealand. The core of their offering, to market, in many ways became very much a core player in terms of analytics as a service a so forth, but very much established themselves, Pentaho, as an up and coming solution provider taking a more or less, by the book, open source approach for delivering solutions to market. But they were entering a market that was already fairly mature in terms of data mining. Because you are talking about the mid-2000's. You already had SaaS, and SPSS, and some of the others that had been in that space. And done quite well for a long time. And so cut ahead to the present day. Pentaho had evolved to incorporate some fairly robust data integration, data transformation, all ETL capabilities into their portfolio. They had become a big data player in their own right, With a strong focus on embedded analytics, as the keynoters indicated this morning. There's a certain point where in this decade it became clear that they couldn't go it any further, in terms of differentiating themselves in this space. In a space that dominated by Hadoop and Spark, and AI things like TensorFlow. Unless they are part of a more diversified solution provider that offered, especially I think the critical thing was the edge orientation of the industrial internet of things. Which is really where many of the opportunities are now for a variety of new markets that are opening up, including autonomous vehicles, which was the focus of here all-- >> Let's clarify some things a little bit. So Pentaho actually started before the whole Hadoop movement. >> Yeah, yeah. >> That's kind of interesting. You know they were young company when Hadoop just started to take off. And they said alright we can adopt these techniques and processes as well. So they weren't true legacy, right? >> Jim: No. >> So they were able to ride that sort of modern wave. But essentially they're in the business of data, I call it data management. And maybe that's not the right term. They do ingest, they're doing ETL, transformation anyway. They're embedding, they've got analytics, they're embedding analytics. Like you said, they're building on top of Weka. >> James: In the first flesh and BI as a hot topic in the market in the mid-200's, they became a fairly substantial BI player. That actually helped them to grow in terms of revenue and customers. >> So they're one of those companies that touches on a lot of different areas. >> Yes. >> So who do we sort of compare them to? Obviously, what you think of guys like Informatica. >> Yeah, yeah. >> Who do heavy ETL. >> Yes. You mentioned BI, you mentioned before. Like, guys like Saas. What about Tableau? >> Well, BBI would be like, there's Tableau, and ClickView and so forth. But there's also very much-- >> Talend. >> Cognos under IBM. And, of course, there's the business objects Portfolio under SAP. >> David: Right. And Talend would be? >> In fact I think Talend is in many ways is the closest analog >> Right. >> to Pentaho in terms of predominatly open-source, go to market approach, that involves both the robust data integration and cleansing and so forth from the back end. And also, a deep dive of open source analytics on the front end. >> So they're differentiation they sort of claim is they're sort of end to end integration. >> Jim: Yeah. >> Which is something we've been talking about at Wikibon for a while. And George is doing some work there, you probably are too. It's an age old thing in software. Do you do best-of-breed or do you do sort of an integrated suite? Now the interesting thing about Pentaho is, they don't own their own cloud. Hitachi Vantara doesn't own their own cloud. So they do a lot of, it's an integrated pipeline, but it doesn't include its own database and other tooling. >> Jim: Yeah. >> Right, and so there is an interesting dynamic occurring that we want to talk to Donna Perlik about obviously, is how they position relative to roll your own. And then how they position, sort of, in the cloud world. >> And we should ask also how are they positioning now in the world of deep learning frameworks? I mean they don't provide, near as I know, their own deep learning frameworks to compete with the likes of TensorFlow, or MXNet, or CNT or so forth. So where are they going in that regard? I'd like to know. I mean there are some others that are big players in this space, like IBM, who don't offer their own deep learning framework, but support more than one of the existing frameworks in a portfolio that includes much of the other componentry. So in other words, what I'm saying is you don't need to have your own deep learning framework, or even open-source deep learning code-based, to compete in this new marketplace. And perhaps Pentaho, or Hitachi Vantara, roadmapping, maybe they'll take an IBM like approach. Where they'll bundle support, or incorporate support, for two or more of these third party tools, or open source code bases into their solution. Weka is not theirs either. It's open source. I mean Weka is an open source tool that they've supported from the get go. And they've done very well by it. >> It's just kind of like early day machine leraning. >> David: Yeah. >> Okay, so we've heard about Hitachi's transformation internally. And then their messaging today was, of course-- >> Exactly, that's where I really wanted to go next was we're talking about it from the product and the technology standpoint. But one of the things we kept hearing about today was this idea of the double bottom line. And this is how Hitachi Vantara is really approaching the marketplace, by really focusing on better business, better outcomes, for their customers. And obviously for Hitachi Vantara, too, but also for bettering society. And that's what we're going to see on theCUBE today. We're going to have a lot of guests who will come on and talk about how they're using Pentaho to solve problems in healthcare data, in keeping kids from dropping out of college, from getting computing and other kinds of internet power to underserved areas. I think that's another really important approach that Hitachi Vantara is taking in its model. >> The fact that Hitachi Vantara, I know, received Pentaho Solution, has been on the market for so long and they have such a wide range of reference customers all over the world, in many vertical. >> Rebecca: That's a great point. >> The most vertical. Willing to go on camera and speak at some length of how they're using it inside their business and so forth. Speaks volumes about a solution provider. Meaning, they do good work. They provide good offerings. They're companies have invested a lot of money in, and are willing to vouch for them. That says a lot. >> Rebecca: Right. >> And so the acquisition was in 2015. I don't believe it was a public number. It's Hitachi Limited. I don't think they had to report it, but the number I heard was about a half a billion. >> Jim: Uh-hm >> Which for a company with the potential of Pentaho, is actually pretty cheap, believe it or not. You see a lot of unicorns, billion dollar plus companies. But the more important thing is it allows Hitachi to further is transformation and really go after this trillion dollar business. Which is really going to be interesting to see how that unfolds. Because while Hitachi has a long-term view, it always takes a long-term view, you still got to make money. It's fuzzy, how you make money in IOT these days. Obviously, you can make money selling devices. >> How do you think money, open source anything? You know, so yeah. >> But they're sort of open source, with a hybrid model, right? >> Yeah. >> And we talked to Brian about this. There's a proprietary component in there so they can make their margin. Wikibon, we see this three tier model emerging. A data model, where you've got the edge in some analytics, real time analytics at the edge, and maybe persists some of that data, but they're low cost devices. And then there's a sort of aggregation point, or a hub. I think Pentaho today called it a gateway. Maybe it was Brian from Forester. A gateway where you're sort of aggregating data, and then ultimately the third tier is the cloud. And that cloud, I think, vectors into two areas. One is Onprem and one was public cloud. What's interesting with Brian from Forester was saying that basically said that puts the nail in the coffin of Onprem analytics and Onprem big data. >> Uh-hm >> I don't buy that. >> I don't buy that either. >> No, I think the cloud is going to go to your data. Wherever the data lives. The cloud model of self-service and agile and elastic is going to go to your data. >> Couple of weeks ago, of course we Wikibon, we did a webinar for our customers all around the notion of a true private cloud. And Dave, of course, Peter Burse were on it. Explaining that hybrid clouds, of course, public and private play together. But where the cloud experience migrates to where the data is. In other words, that data will be both in public and in private clouds. But you will have the same reliability, high availability, scaleability, ease of programming, so forth, wherever you happen to put your data assets. In other words, many companies we talk to do this. They combine zonal architecture. They'll put some of their resources, like some of their analytics, will be in the private cloud for good reason. The data needs to stay there for security and so forth. But much in the public cloud where its way cheaper quite often. Also, they can improve service levels for important things. What I'm getting at is that the whole notion of a true private cloud is critically important to understand that its all datacentric. Its all gravitating to where the data is. And really analytics are gravitating to where the data is. And increasingly the data is on the edge itself. Its on those devices where its being persistent, much of it. Because there's no need to bring much of the raw data to the gateway or to the cloud. If you can do the predominate bulk of the inferrencing on that data at edge devices. And more and more the inferrencing, to drive things like face recognition from you Apple phone, is happening on the edge. Most of the data will live there, and most of the analytics will be developed centrally. And then trained centrally, and pushed to those edge devices. That's the way it's working. >> Well, it is going to be an exciting conference. I can't wait to hear more from all of our guests, and both of you, Dave Vellante and Jim Kobielus. I'm Rebecca Knight, we'll have more from theCUBE's live coverage of Pentaho World, brought to you by Hitachi Vantara just after this.