>> We're back at the Seaport in Boston. Dave Vellante and Paul Gill. You're watching The Cubes coverage of Red Hat Summit, 2022. A little different this year, a smaller venue. Maybe a thousand people. Love the keynotes, compressed. Big virtual audience. So we're happy to be coming to you live, face to face. It's been a while since we've had these, for a lot of folks, this is their first in person event. You know, it's kind of weird getting used to that, but I think in the next few months, it's going to become the new, sort of quasi abnormal. Francis Chow is here. He's the Vice President and GM of In-Vehicle OS and Edge at Red Hat. Francis, welcome. That's the most interesting title we've had all week. So thanks for coming here. >> Thank you, Dave. Thank you, Paul, for having me here. >> So The Edge, I mean The Edge is, we heard about the International Space Station. We heard about ski boots, of course In-Vehicle. What's the Edge to you? >> Well, to me Edge actually could mean many different things, right? The way we look at Edge is, there is the traditional enterprise Edge, where this is the second tier, third tier data centers that this extension from your core, the network and your centralized data center, right to remote locations. And then there are like Telco Edge, right? where we know about the 5G network, right Where you deploy bay stations and which would have a different size of requirements right. Of traditional enterprise edge networks. And then there are Operational Edge where we see the line of business operating on those locations, right? Things like manufacturing for oil rigs, retail store, right? So very wide variety of Edge that are doing OT type of technology, and then last but not least there is the customer on or kind of device edge where we now putting things into things like cars, as you said, like ski booth, and have that interaction with the end consumers. >> Is this why? I mean, there's a lot of excitement at Red. I could tell among the Red hat people about this GM deal here is this why that's so exciting to them? This really encompasses sort of all of those variants of the edge in automotive, in automobile experience. Doesn't it? >> I think why this is exciting to the industry and also to us is that if you look at traditionally how automotive has designed, right the way the architect vehicle today has many subsystems, they are all purpose viewed, very tight cut, coupled with hardware and software. And it's very difficult to reuse, right? So their cause of development is high. The time to develop is long and adding to that there is a lengthy safety certification process which also kind of make it hard. Because every time you make a change in the system you have to re-certify it again. >> Right. >> And typically it takes about six to 12 months to do so. Every time you make a change. So very lengthy passes, which is important because we want to ensure occupants are safe in a vehicle. Now what we bring to the table, which I think is super exciting is we bring this platform approach. Now you can use a consistent platform that is open and you can actually now run multiple doming applications on the same platform which means automakers can reuse components across model years and brands. That will lower the development cost. Now I think one of the key things that we bring to the table is that we introduce a new safety certification approach called Continuous Safety Certification. We actually announced that in our summit last year with the intent, "Hey, we're going to deliver this functional certified Linux platform" Which is the first four Linux. And the way we do it is we work with our partner Excedr to try to define that approach. And at the high level the idea really is to automate that certification process just like how we automate software development. Right, we are adding that monitoring capabilities with functional safety related artifacts in our CI three pipeline. And we are able to aim to cut back that kind of certification time to a fraction of what is needed today. So what we can do, I think with this collaboration with GM, is help them get faster time to market, and then lower development costs. Now, adding to that, if you think about a modern Linux platform, you can update it over the air, right? This is the capability that we are working with GM as well. Now what customers can expect now, right for future vehicle is there will be updates on apps and services, just like your cell phone, right. Which makes your car more capable over time and more relevant for the long term. >> So there's some assumptions you're making at the edge. First of all, you described a spectrum retail store which you know, to me, okay, it's Edge, but you can take an X-86 box or a hyper converged infrastructure throw it in there. And there's some opportunities to do some stuff in real time, but it's kind of an extension natural extension of IT. Whereas in vehicle you got to make some assumptions spotty connectivity to do software download and you can't do truck rolls at the far edge, right? None of that is okay, and so there's some assumptions there and as you say, your role is to compress the time to market, but also deliver a better consumer >> Absolutely. >> Experience, so what can we expect? You started to talk about the future of in vehicle, you know, or EVs, if you will, what should we expect as consumers? You, you're saying over the year software we're seeing that with some of the EV makers, for sure. But what's the future look like? >> I think what consumers can expect is really over a period of time, right? A similar experience, like what you have with your mobile mobile device, right? If you look back 15, 20 years, right? You buy a phone, right? That's the feature that you have with your phone, right? No update, it is what it is right, for the lifetime of the product which is pretty much what you have now, if you buy a vehicle, right. You have those features capabilities and you allow it for the lifetime of the vehicle. >> Sometimes you have to drive in for a maintenance, a service to get a software update. >> We can talk about that too right. But as we make the systems, update-able right you can now expect more frequent and seamless update of both the operating system and the application services that sit on top of that. Right, so I think right in the future consumers can expect more capable vehicles after you purchase it because new developmental software can now be done with an update over the air. >> I assume this relationship with GM is not exclusive. Are you talking with other automakers as well? >> We are talking to auto makers, other auto makers. What we working with GM is really a product that could work for the industry, right? This is actually what we both believe in is the right thing to do right? As we are able to standardize how we approach the infrastructure. I think this is a good thing for the whole industry to help accelerate innovation for the entire industry. >> Well which is sort of natural next question. Are we heading toward an open automotive platform? Like we have an open banking platform in that industry. Do you see the possibility that there could be a single platform that all or most of the auto makers will work on? >> I wouldn't use the word single, but I definitely would use the word open. Right? Our goal is to build this open platform, right. Because we believe in open source, right. We believe in community, right. If we make it open, we have more contributors to come in and help to make the system better in a way faster. And actually like you said, right. Improve the quality, right, better. Right, so that the chance of recall is now lower with, with this approach. >> You're using validated patterns as part of this initiative. Is that right? And what is a validated pattern? How is it different from a reference architecture? Is it just kind of a new name for reference architecture? or what value does it bring to the relation? >> For automotive right, we don't have a validated pattern yet but they can broadly kind of speak about what that is. >> Yeah. >> And how we see that evolve over time. So validated pattern basically is a combination of Red Hat products, multiple Red Hat products and partner products. And we usually build it for specific use case. And then we put those components together run rigorous tests to validate it that's it going to work, so that it becomes more repeatable and deployable for those particular edge use cases. Now we do work with our partners to make it happen, right. Because in the end, right we want to make a solution that is about 80% of the way and allow our partners to kind of add more value and their secret sauce on top and deploy it. Right, and I'll give you kind of one example, right You just have the interview with the Veterans Affairs team, right. One of our patents, right? The Medical Diagnosis Pattern, right. Actually we work with them in the early development stage of that. Right, what it does is to help make assessments on pneumonia with chest X rates, right. So it's a fully automated data pipeline. We get the chest x-ray from an object store use AIML to diagnose whether there's new pneumonia. And then I'll put that in a dashboard automated with the validated pattern. >> So you're not using them today, but can we expect that in the future? It sounds like >> Yes absolutely it's in the works, yes. >> It would be a perfect vertical. >> How do you believe your work with GM? I mean, has implications across Red hat? It seems like there are things you're going to be doing with GM that could affect other parts of your own product portfolio. >> Oh, absolutely. I think this actually is, it's a pivotal moment for Red Hat and the automotive industry. And I think broadly speaking for any safety conscious industry, right. As we create this Proof-point right that we can build a Linux system that is optimized for footprint performance, realtime capabilities, and be able to certify it for safety. Right I think all the adjacent industry, right. You think about transportation, healthcare, right. Industry that have tight safety requirements. It's just opened up the aperture for us to adjust those markets in the future. >> So we talked about a lot about the consumerization of IT over the last decade. Many of us feel as though that what's going on at the Edge, the innovations that are going on at the Edge realtime AI inferencing, you know, streaming data ARM, the innovations that ARM and others are performing certainly in video until we heard today, this notion of, you know, no touch, zero touch provisioning that a lot of these innovations are actually going to find their way into the enterprise. Kind of a follow on fault of what you were just talking about. And there's probably some future disruptions coming. You can almost guarantee that, I mean, 15 years or so we get that kind of disruption. How are you thinking about that? >> Well, I think you company, right. Some of the Edge innovation, right. You're going to kind of bring back to enterprise over time. Right but the one thing that you talk about zero touch provisioning right. Is critical right? You think about edge deployments. You're going to have to deal with a very diverse set of environments on how deployments are happen. Right think about like tail code based stations, right. You have somewhere between 75,000 to 100,000 base stations in the US for each provider right. How do you deploy it? Right, if you let's say you push one update or you want the provision system. So what we bring to the table in the latest open shift release is that, hey we make provisioning zero touch right, meaning you can actually do that without any menu intervention. >> Yeah, so I think the Edge is going to raise the bar for the enterprise, I guess is my premise there. >> Absolutely. >> So Francis, thanks so much for coming on The Cube. It's great to see you and congratulations on the collaboration. It's a exciting area for you guys. >> Thank you again, Dave and Paul. >> Our pleasure, all right keep it right there. After this quick break, we'll be back. Paul Gill and Dave Vellante you're watching The Cubes coverage Red Hat Summit 2022 live from the Boston Seaport. Be right back.

(digital music) >> From theCUBE Studios in Palo Alto in Boston, bringing you data-driven insights from theCUBE and ETR. This is Breaking Analysis with Dave Vellante. >> The storage business as we know it has changed forever. On-prem storage was once a virtually unlimited and untapped bastion of innovation, VC funding and lucrative exits. Today it's a shadow of its former self and the glory days of storage will not return. Hello everyone, and welcome to this week's Wikibon CUBE Insights Powered by ETR. In this breaking analysis, we'll lay out our premise for what's happening in the storage industry, and share some fresh insights from our ETR partners, and data that supports our thinking. We've had three decades of tectonic shifts in the storage business. From the simplified history of this industry shows us there've been five major waves of innovation spanning five decades. The dominant industry model has evolved from what was first the mainframe centric vertically integrated business, but of course by IBM and it became a disintegrated business that saw between like 70 or 80 Winchester disk drive companies that rose and then fell. They served a booming PC industry in this way it was led by the likes of Seagate. Now Seagate supplied the emergence of an intelligent controller based external disc array business that drove huge margins for functions that while lucrative was far cheaper than captive storage from system vendors, this era of course was led by EMC and NetApp. And then this business was disrupted by a flash and software defined model that was led by Pure Storage and also VMware. Now the future of storage is being defined by cloud and intelligent data management is being led by AWS and a three letter company that we'll just call TBD, otherwise known as Jump Ball Incorporated. Now, let's get into it here, the impact of AWS cannot be overstated now while legacy storage players, they're sick and tired of talking about the cloud, the reality cannot be ignored. The cloud has been the most disruptive force in storage over the past 10 years, and we've reported on the spending impact extensively. But cloud is not the only factor pressuring the on-prem storage business, flash has killed what we call performance by spindles. In other words, the practice of adding more disk drives to keep performance from tanking. So much flash has been injected into the data center that that no longer is required. But now as you drill down into the cloud, AWS has been by far the most significant factor in our view. Lots of people talked about object storage before AWS, but there sure wasn't much spending going on, S3 changed that. AWS is getting much more aggressive about expanding its storage portfolio and its offerings. S3 came out in 2006 and it was the very first AWS service and then Elastic Block Service EBS came out a couple of years later, nobody really paid much attention. Well last fall at storage day, we saw AWS announce a number of services, many fire-related and this year we saw four new announcements of Amazon at re:Invent. We think AWS' storage revenue will surpass 8 billion this year and could be as high as 10 billion. There's not much data out there, but this would mean that AWS' storage biz is larger than that of a NetApp, which means AWS is larger than every traditional storage player with the exception of Dell. Here's a little glimpse of what's coming at the legacy storage business. It's a clip of the vice-president of AWS storage, her name is Mahlon Thompson Bukovec, watch this. Okay now, you may say Dave, what the heck does that have to do with anything? Yeah, I don't know, but as an older white guy, that's been in this business for awhile, I just think it's badass that this woman boxes and runs a business that we think is approaching $10 billion. Now let's take a quick look at the storage announcements AWS made at re:Invent. The company made four announcements this year, let me try to be brief, the first is EBS io2 Block Express Volumes, got to love the names. AWS was claims this is the first storage area network or sand for the cloud and it offers up to 256,000 IOPS and 4,000 megabytes per second throughput and 64 terabytes of capacity. Hey, sounds pretty impressive right, Well let's dig in a little bit okay, first of all, this is not the first sand in the cloud, at least in my view there may be others but Pure Storage announced cloud block store in 2019 at its annual accelerate customer conference and it's pretty comparable here. Maybe not so much in the speeds and feeds, but the concept of better block storage in the cloud with higher availability. Now, as you may also be saying, what's the big deal? The performance come on, we can smoke that we're on-prem vendor We can bury that. Compared to what we do, AWS' announcement is really not that impressive okay, let me give you a point of comparison there's a startup out there called VAST Data. Just there for you and closure with bundled storage and compute can do 400,000 IOPS and 40,000 megabytes per second and that can be scaled, so yeah, I get it. And AWS also announced that io2 two was priced at 20% less than previous generation volumes, which you might say is also no big deal and I would agree 20% is not as aggressive as the average price decline per gigabyte of any storage technology. AWS loves to make a big deal about its price declines, it's essentially following the industry trends but the point is that this feature will be great for a lot of workloads and it's fully integrated with AWS services meaning for example, it will be very convenient for AWS customers to invoke this capability for example Aurora and other AWS databases through its RDS service, just another easy button for developers to push. This is specially important as we see AWS rapidly expanding its machine learning in AI capabilities with SageMaker, it's embedding ML into things like Redshift and driving analytics, so integration is very key for its customers. Now, is Amazon retail going to run its business on io2 volumes? I doubt it. I believe they're running on Oracle and they need much better performance, but this is a mainstream service for the EBS masses to tap. Now, the other notable announcement was EBS Gp3 volumes. This is essentially a service that lets let you programmatically set SLAs for IOPS and throughput independently without needing to add additional storage. Again, you may be saying things like, well atleast I remember when SolidFire let me do this several years ago and gave me more than 3000 IOPS and 125 megabytes per a second performance, but look, this is great for mainstream customers that want more consistent and predictable performance and that want to set some kind of threshold or floor and it's integrated again into the AWS stack. Two other announcements were made, one that automatically tiers data to colder storage tiers and a replication service. On the former, data migrates to tier two after 90 days of inaccess and tier three, after 180 days. AWS remember, they hired a bunch of folks out of EMC years ago and they put them up in the Boston Seaport area, so they've acquired lots of expertise in a lot of different areas I'm not sure if tiering came out of that group but look, this stuff is not rocket science, but it saves customers money. So these are tried and true techniques that AWS is applying but the important thing is it's in the cloud. Now for sure we'd like to see more policy options than say for example, a fixed 90 day or 180 day policy and more importantly we'd like to see intelligent tiering where the machine is smart enough to elevate and promote certain datasets when they're needed for instance, at the end of a quarter for comparison purposes or at the end of the year, but as NFL Hall of Fame Coach Hank Stram would have said, AWS is matriculating the ball down the field. Okay, let's look at some of the data that supports what we're saying here in our premise today. This chart shows spending across the ETR taxonomy. It depicts the net score or spending velocity for different sectors. We've highlighted storage, now don't put too much weight on the January data because the survey was just launched, but you can see storage continues to be a back burner item relative to some other spending priorities. Now as I've reported, CIOs are really focused on cloud, containers, container orchestration, automation, productivity and other key areas like security. Now let's take a look at some of the financial data from the storage crowd. This chart shows data for eight leading names in storage and we put storage in quotes because as we said earlier, the market is shifting and for sure companies like Cohesity and Rubrik, they're not positioning as storage players in fact, that's the last thing they want to do. Rather they're category creators around data management or intelligent data management but their inadjacency to storage, they're partnering with all the primary storage companies and they're in the ETR taxonomy. Okay, so as you can see, we're showing the year over year, quarterly revenue growth for the leading storage companies. NetApp is a big winner, they're growing at a whopping 2%. They beat expectations, but expectations were way down so you can see in the right most column upper right, we've added the ETR net score from October and net score of 10% says that if you ask customers, are you spending more or less with a company, there are 10% of the customers that are essentially spending more than are spending less, get into that a little further later. For comparison, a company like Snowflake, it has a net score approaching 70% Pure Storage used to be that high several years ago or high sixties anyway. So 10% is in the red zone and yet NetApp, is the big winner this quarter. Now Nutanix isn't really again a storage company, but they're an adjacency and they sell storage and like many of these companies, it's transitioning to a subscription pricing model, so that puts pressure on the income statement, that's why they went out and did a deal with Bain, Bain put in $750 million to help Bridge that transition so that's kind of an interesting move. Every company in this chart is moving to an annual recurring revenue model and that as a service approach is going to be the norm by the end of the decade. HPE's doing it with GreenLake, Dell has announced Apex, virtually every company is headed in this direction. Now speaking of HPE, it's Nimble business that has momentum, but other parts of the storage portfolio are quite a bit softer. Dell continues to see pressure on its storage business although VxRail is a bright spot. Everybody's got a bright spot, everybody's got new stuff that's growing much faster than the old stuff, the problem is the old stuff is much much bigger than the new stuff. IBM's mainframe storage cycle, well that's seems to have run its course, they had been growing for the last several quarters that looks like it's over. And so very very cyclical businesses here now as you can see, The data protection data management companies, they are showing spending momentum but they're not public so we don't have revenue data. But you got to wonder with all the money these guys have raised and the red hot IPO and tech markets, why haven't these guys gone public? The answer has to be that they're either not ready or maybe their a numbers weren't where they want them to be, maybe they're not predictable enough, maybe they don't have their operational act together or maybe they need to you get that in order, some combination of those factors is likely. They'll tell you, they'll give other answers if you ask them, but if they had their stuff together they'd be going out right now. Now here's another look at the spending data in terms of net score, which is again spending velocity. The ETR here is measuring the percent of respondents that are adopting new, spending more, spending flat, spending less or retiring the platform. So net score is adoptions, which is the lime green plus the spending more, which is the forest green. Add those two and then subtract spending less, which is the pink and then leaving the platform, which is the bright red, what's left over is net score. So, let's look at the picture here, Cohesity leads all players in the storage taxonomy, the ETR storage taxonomy, again they don't position that way, but that's the way the customers are answering. They've got 55% net score which is really solid and you can see the data in the upper right-hand corner, it's followed by Nutanix. Now they're really not again in the scope of Pure play storage play but speaking of Pure, its net score has come down from its high of 73% in January, 2016. It's not going to climb back up there, but it's going to be interesting to see if Pure net scorecard rebound in a post COVID world. We're also watching what Pure does in terms of unifying file and object and how it's fairing in cloud and what it does with the Portworx acquisition which is really designed to bring forth a new programming model. Now, Dell is doing fine with VxRail, but VSAN is well off its net score highs which we're in the 60% plus range a couple of years ago, VSAN is definitely been a factor from VMware, but again that's come off its highs, HPE with Nimble still has some room to improve, I think it actually will I think that these figures that we're showing here they're are somewhat depressed by the COVID factor, I expect Nimble is going to bounce back in future surveys. Dell and NetApp are the big leaders in terms of presence or market share in the data other than VMware, 'cause VMware has a lot of instances, it's software defined that's why they're so prominent. And with VMware's large share you'd expect them to have net scores that are tepid and you can see a similar pattern with IBM. So Dell, NetApp, tepid net scores as is IBM because of their large market share VMware, kind of a newer entry into the play and so doing pretty well there from a net score standpoint. Now Commvault like Cohesity and Rubrik is really around intelligent data management, trying to go beyond backup into business recovery, data protection, DevOps, bringing that analytics, bringing that to the cloud, we didn't put Veeam in here and we probably should have. They had pre-COVID net scores well in to the thirties and they have a steadily increasing share of the market, so we expect good things from Veeam going forward. They were acquired earlier this year by Insight, capital private equity firm. So big changes there as well, that was their kind of near-term exit maybe more to come. But look, it's all relative, this is a large and mature market that is moving to the cloud and moving to other adjacencies. And the core is still primary storage, that's the main supreme prerequisite and everything else flows from there, data protection, replication, everything else. This chart gives you another view of the competitive landscape, it's that classic XY chart it plots net score in the vertical axis and market share on the horizontal axis, market share remember is a measure of presence in the dataset. Now think about this from the CIO's perspective, they have their on-prem estate, got all this infrastructure and they're putting a brick wall around their core systems. And what do they want out of storage for that class of workload? They want it to perform consistently, they want it to be efficient and they want it to be cost-effective, so what are they going to do? they're going to consolidate, They're going to consolidate the number of vendors, they're going to consolidate the storage, they're going to minimize complexity, yeah, they're going to worry about the blast radius, but there's ways to architect around that. The last thing they want to worry about is managing a zillion storage vendors this business is consolidating, it has been for some time, we've seen the number of independent storage players that are going public as consolidated over the years, and it's going to continue. so on-prem storage arrays are not giving CIOs the innovation and strategic advantage back when things like storage virtualization, space efficient snapshots, data de-duplication and other storage services were worth maybe taking a flyer on a feature product like for example, a 3PAR or even a Data Domain. Now flash gave the CIOs more headroom and better performance and so as I said earlier, they're not just buying spindles to increase performance, so as more and more work gets pushed to the cloud, you're seeing a bunkering in on these large scale mission-critical workloads. As you saw earlier, the legacy storage market is consolidating and has been for a while as I just said, it's essentially becoming a managed decline business where RnD is going to increasingly get squeezed and go to other areas, both from the vendor community and on the buy-side where they're investing on things like cloud, containers and in building new layers in their business and of course the DX, the Digital Transformation. I mentioned VAST Data before, it is a company that's growing and another company that's growing is Infinidat and these guys are traditional storage on-prem models they don't bristle If I say traditional they're nexgen if you will but they don't own a cloud, so they were selling to the data center. Now Infinidat is focused on petabyte scale and as they say, they're growing revenues, they're having success consolidating storage that thing that I just talked about. Ironically, these are two Israeli founder based companies that are growing and you saw earlier, this is a share shift the market is not growing overall the part of that's COVID, but if you exclude cloud, the market is under pressure. Now these two companies that I'm mentioning, they're kind of the exception to the rule here, they're tiny in the grand scheme of things, they're really not going to shift the market and their end game is to get acquired so they can still share, but they're not going to reverse these trends. And every one on this chart, every on-prem player has to have a cloud strategy where they connect into the cloud, where they take advantage of native cloud services and they help extend their respective install bases into the cloud, including having a capability that is physically proximate to the cloud with a colo like an Equinix or some other approach. Now, for example at re:Invent, we saw that AWS has hybrid strategy, we saw that evolving. AWS is trying to bring AWS to the edge and they treat the data center as just another edge note, so outposts and smaller versions of outposts and things like local zones are all part of bringing AWS to the edge. And we saw a few companies Pure, Infinidant, Veeam come to mind that are connecting to outpost. They saw the Qumulo was in there, Clumio, Commvault, WekaIO is also in there and I'm sure I'm missing some so, DM me, email me, yell at me, I'm sorry I forgot you but you get the point. These companies that are selling on-prem are connecting to the cloud, they're forced to connect to the cloud much in the same way as they were forced to join the VMware ecosystem and try to add value, try to keep moving fast. So, that's what's going on here, what's the prognosis for storage in the coming year? Well, where've of all the good times gone? Look, we would never bet against data but the days of selling storage controllers that masks the deficiencies of spinning disc or add embedded hardware functions or easily picking off a legacy install base with flash, well, those days are gone. Repatriation, it ain't happening it's maybe tiny little pockets. CIOs are rationalizing their on-premises portfolios so they can invest in the cloud, AI, machine learning, machine intelligence, automation and they're re-skilling their teams. Low latency high bandwidth workloads with minimal jitter, that's the sweet spot for on-prem it's becoming the mainframe of storage. CIOs are also developing a cloud first strategy yes, the world is hybrid but what does that mean to CIOs? It means you're going to have some work in the cloud and some work on-prem, there's a hybrid We've got both. Everything that can go to the cloud, will go to the cloud, in our opinion and everything that can't or shouldn't won't. Yes, people will make mistakes and they'll "repatriate" but generally that's the trend. And the CIOs they're building an abstraction layer to connect workloads from an observability and manageability standpoint so they can maintain control and manage lock-in risk, they have options. Everything that doesn't go to the cloud will likely have some type of hybridicity to it, the reverse won't likely be the case. For vendors, cloud strategies involve supporting your install basis migration to the cloud, that's where they're going, that's where they want to go, they want your help there's business to be made there so enabling low latency hybrids in accommodating subscription models, well, that's a whole another topic, but that's the trend that we see and you rethink the business that you're in, for instance, data management and developing an edge strategy that recognizes that edge workloads are going to require new architecture and that's more efficient than what we've seen built around general purpose systems, and wow, that's a topic for another day. You're seeing this whole as a service model really reshape the entire cultures in the way in which the on-prem vendors are operating no longer is it selling a box that has dramatically marked up controllers and disc drives, it's really thinking about services that could be invoked in the cloud. Now remember, these episodes are all available as podcasts, wherever you listen, just search Breaking Analysis podcasts and please subscribe, I'd appreciate that checkout etr.plus for all the survey action. We also publish a full report every week on wikibon.com and siliconangle.com. A lot of ways to get in touch. You can email me at david.vellante@siliconangle.com. you could DM me @dvellante on Twitter, comment on our LinkedIn posts, I always appreciate that. This is Dave Vellante for theCUBE Insights Powered by ETR. Thanks for watching everyone stay safe and we'll see you next time. (upbeat music)

>> From Boston, Massachusetts, it's the cube. covering LiveWorx 18, brought to you by PTC. (upbeat music) >> Welcome back to the Boston Seaport everybody. My name is David Vellante, I'm here with my co-host Stu Miniman and you're watching the cube, the leader in live tech coverage. We're at LiveWorx PTC's big IOT conference. Jaron Lanier is here, he's the father of virtual reality and the author of Dawn of the New Everything. Papa, welcome. >> Hey there. >> What's going on? >> Hey, how's it going? >> It's going great. How's the show going for you? It's cool, it's cool. It's, it's fine. I'm actually here talking about this other book a little bit too, but, yeah, I've been having a lot of fun. It's fun to see how hollow lens applied to a engines and factories. It's been really cool to see people seeing the demos. Mixed reality. >> Well, your progeny is being invoked a lot at the show. Everybody's sort of talking about VR and applying it and it's got to feel pretty good. >> Yeah, yeah. It seems like a VR IoT blockchain are the sort of the three things. >> Wrap it all with digital transformation. >> Yeah, digital transformation, right. So what we need is a blockchain VR IoT solution to transform something somewhere. Yeah. >> So tell us about this new book, what it's called? >> Yeah. This is called the deleting all your social media accounts right now. And I, I realize most people aren't going to do it, but what I'm trying to do is raise awareness of how the a psychological manipulation algorithms behind the system we're having an effect on society and I think I love the industry but I think we can do better and so I'm kind of agitating a bit here. >> Well Jaron, I was reading up a little bit getting ready for the interview here and people often will attack the big companies, but you point at the user as, you know, we need to kind of take back and we have some onus ourselves as to what we use, how we use it and therefore can have impact on, on that. >> Well, you know, what I've been finding is that within the companies and Silicon Valley, a lot of the top engineering talent really, really wants to pursue ethical solutions to the problem, but feels like our underlying business plan, the advertising business plan keeps on pulling us back because we keep on telling advertisers we have yet new ways to kind of do something to tweak the behaviors of users and it kind of gradually pulls us into this darker and darker territory. The thing is, there's always this assumption, oh, it's what users want. They would never pay for something the way they pay for Netflix, they would never pay for social media that way or whatever it is. The thing is, we've never asked users, nobody's ever gone and really checked this out. So I'm going to, I'm kind of putting out there as a proposition and I think in the event that users turn out to really want more ethical social media and other services by paying for them, you know, I think it's going to create this enormous sigh of relief in the tech world. I think it's what we all really want. >> Well, I mean ad-based business models that there's a clear incentive to keep taking our data and doing whatever you want with it, but, but perhaps there's a better way. I mean, what if you're, you're sort of proposing, okay, maybe users would be willing to pay for various services, which is probably true, but what if you were able to give users back control of their data and let them monetize their data. What are your thoughts on that? >> Yeah, you know, I like a lot of different solutions, like personally, if it were just up to me, if I ran the world, which I don't, but if I ran the world, I can make every single person of the world into a micro-entrepreneur where they can package, sell and price their data the way they want. They can, they can form into associations with others to do it. And they can also purchase data from others as they want. And I think what we'd see is this flowering of this giant global marketplace that would organize itself and would actually create wonders. I really believe that however, I don't run the world and I don't think we're going to see that kind of perfect solution. I think we're going to see something that's a bit rougher. I think we might see something approximating that are getting like a few steps towards that, but I think we are going to move away from this thing where like right now if two people want to do anything on online together, the only way that's possible is if there's somebody else who's around to pay them, manipulate them sneakily and that's stupid. I mean we can be better than that and I'm sure we will. >> Yeah, I'm sure we will too. I mean we think, we think blockchain and smart contracts are a part of that solution and obviously a platform that allows people to do exactly what you just described. >> And, and you know, it's funny, a lot of things that sounded radical a few years ago are really not sounding too radical. Like you mentioned smart contracts. I remember like 10 years ago for sure, but even five years ago when you talked about this, people are saying, oh no, no, no, no, no, this, the world is too conservative. Nobody's ever going to want to do this. And the truth is people are realizing that if it makes sense, you know, it makes sense. And, and, and, and so I think, I think we're really seeing like the possibilities opening up. We're seeing a lot of minds opening, so it's kind of an exciting time. >> Well, something else that I'd love to get your thoughts on and we think a part of that equation is also reputation that if you, if you develop some kind of reputation system that is based on the value that you contribute to the community, that affects your, your reputation and you can charge more if you have a higher reputation or you get dinged if you're promoting fake news. That that reputation is a linchpin to the successful community like that. >> Well, right now the problem is because, in the free model, there's this incredible incentive to just sort of get people to do things instead of normal capitalist. And when you say buy my thing, it's like you don't have to buy anything, but I'm going to try to trick you into doing something, whatever it is. And, and, and if you ever direct commercial relationship, then the person who's paying the money starts to be a little more demanding. And the reason I'm bringing that up is that right now there's this huge incentive to create false reputation. Like in reviews, a lot of, a lot of the reviews are fake, followers a lot of them are fake instance. And so there's like this giant world of fake stuff. So the thing is right now we don't have reputation, we have fake reputation and the way to get real reputation instead of think reputation is not to hire an army of enforcing us to go around because the company is already doing that is to change the financial incentives so you're not incentivizing criminals, you know I mean, that's incentives come first and then you can do the mop up after that, but you have to get the incentives aligned with what you want. >> You're here, and I love the title of the book. We interviewed James Scott and if you know James Scott, he's one of the principals at ICIT down PTC we interviewed him last fall and we asked him, he's a security expert and we asked them what's the number one risk to our country? And he said, the weaponization of social media. Now this is, this is before fake news came out and he said 2020 is going to be a, you know, what show and so, okay. >> Yeah, you know, and I want to say there's a danger that people think this is a partisan thing. Like, you know, if you, it's not about that. It's like even if you happen to support whoever has been on, on the good side of social media manipulation, you should still oppose the manipulation. You know, like I was, I was just in the UK yesterday and they had the Brexit foot where there was manipulation by Russians and others. And you know, the point I've made over there is that it's not about whether you support Brexit or not. That's your business, I don't even have an opinion. It's not, I'm an American. That's something that's for somebody else. But the thing is, if you look at the way Brexit happened, it tore society apart. It was nasty, it was ugly, and there have been tough elections before, but now they're all like that. And there was a similar question when the, the Czechoslovakia broke apart and they didn't have all the nastiness and it's because it was before social media that was called the velvet divorce. So the thing is, it's not so much about what's being supported, whatever you think about Donald Trump or anything else, it's the nastiness. It's the way that people's worst instincts are being used to manipulate them, that's the problem. >> Yeah, manipulation denial is definitely a problem no matter what side of the aisle you're on, but I think you're right that the economic incentive if the economic incentive is there, it will change behavior. And frankly, without it, I'm not sure it will. >> Well, you know, in the past we've tried to change the way things in the world by running around in outlying things. For instance, we had prohibition, we outlawed, we outlawed alcohol, and what we did is we created this underground criminal economy and we're doing something similar now. What we're trying to do is we're saying we have incentives for everything to be fake, everything to be phony for everything to be about manipulation and we're creating this giant underground of people trying to manipulate search results or trying to manipulate social media feeds and these people are getting more and more sophisticated. And if we keep on doing this, we're going to have criminals running the world. >> Wonder if I could bring the conversation back to the virtual reality. >> Absolutely. >> I'm sorry about that. >> So, but you know, you have some concerns about whether virtual reality will be something you for good or if it could send us off the deep end. >> Oh yeah, well. Look, there's a lot to say about virtual reality. It's a whole world after all. So you can, there is a danger that if the same kinds of games are being played on smartphones these days were transferred into a virtual reality or mixed reality modalities. Like, you could really have a poisonous level of mind control and I, I do worry about that I've worried about that for years. What I'm hoping is that the smartphone era is going to force us to fix our ways and get the whole system working well enough so that by the time technologies like virtual reality are more common, we'll have a functional way to do things. And it won't, it won't all be turned into garbage, you know because I do worry about it. >> I heard, I heard a positive segment on NPR saying that one of the problems is we all stare at our phones and maybe when I have VR I'll actually be talking to actual people so we'll actually help connections and I'm curious to hear your thoughts on that. >> Well, you know, most of the mixed reality demos you see these days are person looking at the physical world and then there's extra stuff added to the physical world. For instance, in this event, just off camera over there, there's some people looking at automobile engines and seeing them augmented and, and that's great. But, there's this other thing you can do which is augmenting people and sometimes it can be fun. You can put horns or wings or long noses or something on people. Of course, you still see them with the headsets all that's great. But you can also do other stuff. You can, you can have people display extra information that they have in their mind. You can have more sense of what each other are thinking and feeling. And I actually think as a tool of expression between people in real life, it's going to become extremely creative and interesting. >> Well, I mean, we're seeing a lot of applications here. What are some of your favorites? >> Oh Gosh. Of the ones right here? >> Yes. >> Well, you know, the ones right here are the ones I described and I really like them, there's a really cool one of some people getting augmentation to help them maintain and repair factory equipment. And it's, it's clear, it's effective, it's sensible. And that's what you want, right? If you ask me personally what really, a lot of the stuff my students have done, really charms me like up, there was just one project, a student intern made where you can throw virtual like goop like paint and stuff around in the walls and it sticks and starts running down and this is running on the real world and you can spray paint the real world so you can be a bit of a juvenile delinquent basically without actually damaging anything. And it was great, it was really fun and you know, stuff like that. There was this other thing and other student did where you can fill a whole room with these representations of mathematical objects called tensors and I'm sorry to geek out, but you had this kid where all these people could work together, manipulating tensors and the social environment. And it was like math coming alive in this way I hadn't experienced before. That really was kind of thrilling. And I also love using virtual reality to make music that's another one of my favorite things, >> Talk more about that. >> Well, this is something I've been doing forever since the '80s, since the '80s. I've been, I've been at this for awhile, but you can make an imaginary instruments and play them with your hands and you can do all kinds of crazy things. I've done a lot of stuff with like, oh I made this thing that was halfway between the saxophone and an octopus once and I'll just >> Okay. >> all this crazy. I love that stuff I still love it. (mumbling) It hasn't gotten old for me. I still love it as much as I used to. >> So I love, you mentioned before we came on camera that you worked on minority report and you made a comment that there were things in that that just won't work and I wonder if you could explain a little bit more, you know, because I have to imagine there's a lot of things that you talked about in the eighties that, you know, we didn't think what happened that probably are happening. Well, I mean minority report was only one of a lot of examples of people who were thinking about technology in past decades. Trying to send warnings to the future saying, you know, like if you try to make a society where their algorithms predicting what'll happen, you'll have a dystopia, you know, and that's essentially what that film is about. It uses sort of biocomputer. They're the sort of bioengineered brains in these weird creatures instead of silicon computers doing the predicting. But then, so there are a lot of different things we could talk about minority report, but in the old days one of the famous VR devices which these gloves that you'd use to manipulate virtual objects. And so, I put a glove in a scene mockup idea which ended up and I didn't design the final production glove that was done by somebody in Montreal, but the idea of putting a glove a on the heroes hand there was that glove interfaces give you arm fatigue. So the truth is if you look at those scenes there physically impossible and what we were hoping to do is to convey that this is a world that has all this power, but it's actually not. It's not designed for people. It actually wouldn't work in. Of course it kind of backfired because what happened is the production designers made these very gorgeous things and so now every but every year somebody else tries to make the minority report interface and then you discover oh my God, this doesn't work, you know, but the whole point was to indicate a dystopian world with UI and that didn't quite work and there are many other examples I could give you from the movie that have that quality. >> So you just finished the book. When did this, this, this go to print the. >> Yeah, so this book is just barely out. It's fresh from the printer. In fact, I have this one because I noticed a printing flaw. I'm going to call the publisher and say, Oh, you got to talk to the printer about this, but this is brand new. What happened was last year I wrote a kind of a big book of advert triality that's for real aficionados and it's called Dawn of the new everything and then when I would go and talk to the media about it they'd say, well yeah, but what about social media? And then all this stuff, and this was before it Cambridge Analytica, but people were still interested. So I thought, okay, I'll do a little quick book that addresses what I think about all that stuff. And so I wrote this thing last year and then Cambridge Analytica happened and all of a sudden it's, it seems a little bit more, you know, well timed >> than I could have imagined >> Relevant. So, what other cool stuff are you working on? >> I have to tell you something >> Go ahead. >> This is a real cat. This is a black cat who is rescued from a parking lot in Oakland, California and belongs to my daughter. And he's a very sweet cat named Potato. >> Awesome. You, you're based in Northern California? >> Yeah, yeah, yeah. >> Awesome And he was, he was, he was an extra on the set of, of the Black Panther movie. He was a stand-in for like a little mini black panthers. >> What other cool stuff are you working on? What's next for you? >> Oh my God, there's so much going on. I hardly even know where to begin. There's. Well, one of the things I'm really interested in is there's a certain type of algorithm that's really transforming the world, which is usually called machine learning. And I'm really interested in making these things more transparent and open so it's less like a black box. >> Interesting. Because this has been something that's been bugging me you know, most kinds of programming. It might be difficult programming, but at least the general concept of how it works is obvious to anyone who's program and more and more we send our kids to coding camps and there's just a general societal, societal awareness of what conventional programming is like. But machine learning has still been this black box and I view that as a danger. Like you can't have society run by something that most people feel. It's like this black box because it'll, it'll create a sense of distrust and, and, I think could be, you know, potentially quite a problem. So what I want to try to do is open the black box and make it clear to people. So that's one thing I'm really interested in right now and I'm, oh, well, there's a bunch of other stuff. I, I hardly even know where to begin. >> The black box problem is in, in machine intelligence is a big one. I mean, I, I always use the example I can explain, I can describe to you how I know that's a dog, but I really can't tell you how I really know it's a dog. I know I look at a dog that's a dog, but. Well, but, I can't really in detail tell you how I did that but it isn't AI kind of the same way. A lot of AI. >> Well, not really. There's, it's a funny thing right now in, in, in the tech world, there are certain individuals who happen to be really good at getting machine language to work and they get very, very well paid. They're sort of like star athletes. But the thing is even so there's a degree of almost like folk art to it where we're not exactly sure why some people are good at it But even having said that, we, it's wrong to say that we have no idea how these things work or what we can certainly describe what the difference is between one that fails and that's at least pretty good, you know? And so I think any ordinary person, if we can improve the user interface and improve the way it's taught any, any normal person that can learn even a tiny bit of programming like at a coding camp, making the turtle move around or something, we should be able to get to the point where they can understand basic machine learning as well. And we have to get there. All right in the future, I don't want it to be a black box. It doesn't need to be. >> Well basic machine learning is one thing, but how the machine made that decision is increasingly complex. Right? >> Not really it's not a matter of complexity. It's a funny thing. It's not exactly complexity. It has to do with getting a bunch of data from real people and then I'm massaging it and coming up with the right transformation so that the right thing spit out on the other side. And there's like a little, it's like to me it's a little bit more, it's almost like, I know this is going to sound strange but it's, it's almost like learning to dress like you take this data and then you dress it up in different ways and all of a sudden it turns functional in a certain way. Like if you get a bunch of people to tag, that's a cat, that's a dog. Now you have this big corpus of cats and dogs and now you want to tell them apart. You start playing with these different ways of working with it. That had been worked out. Maybe in other situations, you might have to tweak it a little bit, but you can get it to where it's very good. It can even be better than any individual person, although it's always based on the discrimination that people put into the system in the first place. In a funny way, it's like Yeah, it's like, it's like a cross between a democracy and a puppet show or something. Because what's happening is you're taking this data and just kind of transforming it until you find the right transformation that lets you get the right feedback loop with the original thing, but it's always based on human discrimination in the first place so it's not. It's not really cognition from first principles, it's kind of leveraging data, gotten from people and finding out the best way to do that and I think really, really work with it. You can start to get a two to feel for it. >> We're looking forward to seeing your results of that work Jared, thanks for coming on the cube. You're great guests. >> Really appreciate it >> I really appreciate you having me here. Good. Good luck to all of you. And hello out there in the land that those who are manipulated. >> Thanks again. The book last one, one last plug if I may. >> The book is 10 arguments for deleting your social media accounts right now and you might be watching this on one of them, so I'm about to disappear from your life if you take my advice. >> All right, thanks again. >> All right. Okay, keep it right there everybody. We'll be back with our next guest right after this short break. You're watching the cube from LiveWorx in Boston. We'll be right back. (upbeat music)

>> Announcer: From Boston, Massachusetts, it's theCUBE! Covering Cloud Foundry Summit 2018. Brought to you by the Cloud Foundry Foundation. >> I'm Stu Minamin and this is theCUBE's coverage of Cloud Foundry Summit 2018. Here in beautiful Boston, Massachusetts. Happy to welcome back to the program Chip Childers, who is the CTO of the Cloud Foundry Foundation. Chip, you started off this morning saying the runners this morning got a taste of the Boston Marathon. >> They did, they did! >> It's raining, it's cold, it's miserable. >> Yesterday was beautiful. >> At least there was less wind. >> Yesterday was absolutely beautiful. So we kicked off the summit, beautiful sun, but then we had our Fun Run this morning. >> As a local, I do apologize for the weather. Normally April's a great time. We want more tech coverage here in the area. More tech shows. We're in the center of a great tech hub, here in the Boston Seaport. We've talked to a couple of Boston startups, you know, here at the show. And, you know, great ecosystem if you go there. Thank you for bringing your show here. >> Absolutely, happy to be here. >> All right, so, last time we caught up was year ago at the show. And I think it was, what, 213 working days or something? I think Molly said >> Something like that Something like that yeah. >> The good thing is in our industry, nothings changing, we can talk about the same stuff as last year. >> Leisurely pace >> No concern, let's just sit back and you know, talk about our favorite pop culture references. Chip what's hot on your plate? And what are you hearing from the users in the community? >> Sure. So this year the theme Our events team came up with a very fun pun, which is Running at Scale. It means two things. One, the Boston Marathon was on Monday, but two it really does represent the stories that we're getting from our users, the customers, and the distributions, those that use the open source directly. So not only are we seeing a broadening of adoption across new organizations, but they're getting really deep into using it. We filled a survey, user survey, just did our second run of it. In fact we didn't have this data back in Santa Clara last year. So it's been less than a year since the 2017 one. And what we found was that there was a 21 point swing in those companies that were using Cloud Foundry with more than 50 developers, alright. So 50 developers and higher When you really talk to the interesting, large scale Fortune 500 companies, they're talking thousands of developers, that are working on the platform, being productive, and that truly is kind of what this event is about for us. >> I grew up around the infrastructure stuff, and scale means a lot of things to a lot of people, but had a great discussion with Dr. Nick, just before talking about how if you were to build your kind of utopian environment You look at some of the hyper-scale companies, the Facebooks and Googles of the world, and thing is they're such a scale that if they don't have good automation, and don't have you know really the distributive architectures that we're all talking about and things like that, there's no way that they could run their businesses. >> Yeah and the reality is a lot of the businesses that aren't Google, aren't Facebook, they have to be able to think about that level of scale. To me it really boils down to three basic principles, and to me this is the best definition of what Cloud native means. Whether you're talking about a platform, whether you're talking about how you design your applications, it's simple patterns, highly automated, which can be scaled with ease, right? And through that you can do really amazing things with software, but it has to be easily scaled, it has be easily managed, and you do that through the simplicity of the patterns that you apply. >> Yeah, and being simple is difficult. >> Yes >> How much we have arguments in the industry it's like well, let's throw an abstraction layer in there, do an overlay or underlay, but you know really building kind of distributed systems, is a little bit different. >> It is a little bit different. So one of the things that the Cloud Foundry ecosystem has, is a rich history of iterating towards a better and better developer experience. At its heart, the Cloud Foundry ecosystem of distribution, and tools, and the different products we have, they're all about helping the developer be a better developer in the context of their organization. So we've been iterating on that experience and just doing incremental constant improvement and change and we're very proud of that productivity, right? And that's really what drive these organizations to say look, this is a platform that is operated very easily with small teams. I think you've spoken with a couple companies, and if you ever ask them hot many operators do you have to handle thousands of engineers, tens of thousands of applications, they say, well, maybe ten. >> The T-Mobile example is >> Great example >> Ten to fifteen operators with 17000 developers so >> Chip: Yep, yep >> It's funny cause I remember we used to talk about you know in the enterprise how many servers can a single admin handle and then if you go to the hyper-scale ones it was three orders magnitude different. But in the hyper-scale ones they didn't really have server people, they had people that brought in servers, and people threw them in the wood chipper when they were done >> Chip: Absolutely >> And they didn't manage them. It was the old cattle versus pets analogy that we talked about in the other room, It's just totally different mindsets is how we think about this. I love, For me, it was in the enterprise you know, we harden the hardware, we think about this, and in the software world it's you know, No no, I built it in the application layer, because One of my favorite lines I use is you know, Hardware will eventually fail, and software will eventually work right? >> Absolutely. I think that's the difference between, So application centric thinking leads you to Necessarily, you have to have infrastructure to run it right? My favorite thing is this whole server-less term is absolutely ridiculous if anybody understands it, but there's a little bit behind it, which is, in fact I'd argue Cloud Foundry's fundamentally server-less because when you push code into it, you don't care what operating system's underneath it, right? All you care about is the fact that you've written some code in Java or in Nojass or in Ruby, you're handing it to a platform it deals with all of the details of building a container image, scaling it, managing it, pulling independencies, you don't care what underlying operating systems there, and then that ten person platform operations team, in the Cloud Foundry world, they have the benefit of upstream projects actually producing the operating system image that they can consume, within hours of major vulnerabilities being announced. >> I love actually, at this show you've got a containers and server-less track >> We do >> And I'm an infrastructure guy by background and when we went to virtualization we went little bit up the stack, I don't think about servers I'm trying to get closer to that application. Love you to comment on is Cloud Foundry helps gives some stability and control at that infrastructure level, but it still involved with infrastructure, from in my own data center, >> Chip: Yep >> or hosted data center or I know what could I'm on. When I start going up to like server-less, I'm a little bit higher up the stack, and that's why they can live together, >> Yeah, yeah >> And its closer tied to the application than it is to the infrastructure, so maybe you can tease that out for us a little. >> Yeah, so I think one of the main things that we've heard from the user community and this is actually coming from users of a number of the different distributions. They're saying, look there are roughly, today, roughly two different modes that we care about, cloud native application workloads. And this might expand to include functions and service but predominantly there's two. There's the custom software that we write, which the past experience is great for, and then there's the ISV delivered software, which today increasingly the medium of software delivery is becoming the container image, whether it's an OCI container, whether it's a Docker image, ISV ships software as container images, and you need a great place to land that, so those two abstractions, that paths, just hand the system your code, or the container service just hand it a container image, both of them work really well together, and part of what we're trying to do as a community, a technical community, is we're evolving those integrations so that we can work really well with the Kubernetes ecosystem. There are different options for how these things might be stacked, depending on the vendor that you're talking to, I think mostly that's immaterial to the customers, I think mostly the customers care about having those two experiences be unified from their developer or app owner prospective. >> When you come to this show, there's more than just Cloud Foundry. There's a lot of other projects >> Chip: For sure >> That are coming on to the space Gives us a little viewpoint as to how the foundation looks at this. What's the charter which it fits under Linux foundation There's so many different pieces, Some kind of bleed into what the CNCF is doing, and just try to help map out >> Chip: Yeah how some of these pieces and it's this great toolbox that we've talked about in open source. I love like the zip car guy got up and he's like, I use all the peripheral stuff, and none of the core stuff >> Right >> And that's okay >> Absolutely, that's the fun of open source. So there's a couple ways to look at this. So first, the open source communities collectively. There's a lot of innovations going on in this space, obviously What the Cloud Foundry ecosystem generally does, historically has done, and will continue to do, is that we are focused on the user needs, first and foremost. And what our technical project teams do is they look at what's available in the broader open source ecosystem. They adopt and integrate what makes sense, where we have to build something ourselves, simply because there isn't an equivalent, or it's necessary for technical reasons. We'll build that software. But our architecture has changed many times. In fact, since 2015, right. It hasn't been that many years, as you said, we move slow in this industry (Stu laughs) We've changed this architecture constantly. The upstream projects releasing at minimum of twice a month. That's a pretty high velocity. And it's a big coordinated release. So we're going to continue to evolve the architecture, to bring in new components, this is where CNCF relates. We've integrated Envoy, which is a CNCF project. We're now bringing in Kubernetes, in a couple of different ways. We're working closely with Istio, which is not a CNCF project, yet. But it looks like it might head that way. Service mesh capabilities, We were an early adopter of the container networking interface. Another Linux foundation effort was the open container initiative, right. Seeded from some code from Docker, again one of the earliest platforms to adopt that, outside of Docker. So we really look at the entire spectrum of open source software as a rich market of componentry that can be brought together. And we bring it together so that all these great users that you're talking to, can go along this journey, and think of it almost as a rationalization of the innovative chaos that's occurring. So we rationalize that. Our job is to rationalize our distributions, use that rationalization, and then all of the users get to take advantage of new things that come up. But also we take what gets integrated very seriously, because it has to reach a point of maturity. T-Mobile again, running their whole business on Cloud Foundry. Comcast, running their whole business on Cloud Foundry. US Air Force, fundamentally running their air traffic control, right, how do they get fuel to the jets, on Cloud Foundry. So we take that seriously. And so it's this combination of, harvesting innovation from where we can harvest it, bring it all together, be very thoughtful about how we bring it together, and then the distributions get the advantage of saying, here's a stable core that's going to evolve and take us into the future. >> Chip I've loved the discussion with real customers, doing digital transformation. What that means for them. How they're moving their business forward. Want to give you the final word, for those that couldn't come to the show, I know a lot of the stuffs online, there's a lot of information out there, anything particular do you want to call out, or say hey this is cool, interesting, or exciting you that you'd want to point to. >> Yeah, I actually. There are a lot of things but the one thing that I'll point to is as a US citizen, I'm particularly proud of some of the work that's happening in the US Government. Through 18F, with cloud.gov as an example, but if I step back even further, Cloud Foundry is serving as a vehicle for collaboration across multiple nations right now. We're seeing Australia, we're seeing the United Kingdom, Netherlands, Canada, South Korea, all of these national governments, are trying to figure out how to change citizen engagement to follow the lead of the startups, which are the internet companies, at the same time that these large Fortune 500 companies, are also trying to digitally transform. Governments are trying to do the same thing. So we had a, we're almost done for the day here, but there was almost a full day track of governments talking about their use of the tech, talking about that same digital transformation journey. So to me that's actually really inspiring to see that happen >> Alright well Chip Childers. He was a dancing stick figure >> Chip: I was in the keynote this morning, but here with us on theCUBE. Thank you so much for joining once again, and thank you to the foundation for helping us bring this program to our audience. >> Chip: We're happy to have you here. >> I'm Stu Miniman, and this is theCUBE. Thanks for watching (bright popping music)