(upbeat music) >> Welcome back. We're here at Supercomputing 22 in Dallas. My name's Paul Gill, I'm your host. With me, Dave Nicholson, my co-host. And one thing that struck me about this conference arriving here, was the number of universities that are exhibiting here. I mean, big, big exhibits from universities. Never seen that at a conference before. And one of those universities is Indiana University. Our two guests, Dave Jent, who's the AVP of Networks at Indiana University, Aaron Neal, Deputy CIO at Indiana University. Welcome, thanks for joining us. >> Thank you for having us. >> Thank you. >> I've always thought that the CIO job at a university has got to be the toughest CIO job there is, because you're managing this sprawling network, people are doing all kinds of different things on it. You've got to secure it. You've got to make it performant. And it just seems to be a big challenge. Talk about the network at Indiana University and what you have done particularly since the pandemic, how that has affected the architecture of your network. And what you do to maintain the levels of performance and security that you need. >> On the network side one of the things we've done is, kept in close contact with what the incoming students are looking for. It's a different environment than it was then 10 years ago when a student would come, maybe they had a phone, maybe they had one laptop. Today they're coming with multiple phones, multiple laptops, gaming devices. And the expectation that they have to come on a campus and plug all that stuff in causes lots of problems for us, in managing just the security aspect of it, the capacity, the IP space required to manage six, seven devices per student when you have 35,000 students on campus, has always been a challenge. And keeping ahead of that knowing what students are going to come in with, has been interesting. During the pandemic the campus was closed for a bit of time. What we found was our biggest challenge was keeping up with the number of people who wanted to VPN to campus. We had to buy additional VPN licenses so they could do their work, authenticate to the network. We doubled, maybe even tripled our our VPN license count. And that has settled down now that we're back on campus. But again, they came back with a vengeance. More gaming devices, more things to be connected, and into an environment that was a couple years old, that we hadn't done much with. We had gone through a pretty good size network deployment of new hardware to try to get ready for them. And it's worked well, but it's always challenging to keep up with students. >> Aaron, I want to ask you about security because that really is one of your key areas of focus. And you're collaborating with counties, local municipalities, as well as other educational institutions. How's your security strategy evolving in light of some of the vulnerabilities of VPNs that became obvious during the pandemic, and this kind of perfusion of new devices that that Dave was talking about? >> Yeah, so one of the things that we we did several years ago was establish what we call OmniSOC, which is a shared security operations center in collaboration with other institutions as well as research centers across the United States and in Indiana. And really what that is, is we took the lessons that we've learned and the capabilities that we've had within the institution and looked to partner with those key institutions to bring that data in-house, utilize our staff such that we can look for security threats and share that information across the the other institutions so that we can give each of those areas a heads up and work with those institutions to address any kind of vulnerabilities that might be out there. One of the other things that you mentioned is, we're partnering with Purdue in the Indiana Office of Technology on a grant to actually work with municipalities, county governments, to really assess their posture as it relates to security in those areas. It's a great opportunity for us to work together as institutions as well as work with the state in general to increase our posture as it relates to security. >> Dave, what brings IU to Supercomputing 2022? >> We've been here for a long time. And I think one of the things that we're always interested in is, what's next? What's new? There's so many, there's network vendors, software vendors, hardware vendors, high performance computing suppliers. What is out there that we're interested in? IU runs a large Cray system in Indiana called Big Red 200. And with any system you procure it, you get it running, you operate it, and your next goal is to upgrade it. And what's out there that we might be interested? That I think why we come to IU. We also like to showcase what we do at IU. If you come by the booth you'll see the OmniSOC, there's some video on that. The GlobalNOC, which I manage, which supports a lot of the RNE institutions in the country. We talk about that. Being able to have a place for people to come and see us. If you stand by the booth long enough people come and find you, and want to talk about a project they have, or a collaboration they'd like to partner with. We had a guy come by a while ago wanting a job. Those are all good things having a big booth can do for you. >> Well, so on that subject, in each of your areas of expertise and your purview are you kind of interleaved with the academic side of things on campus? Do you include students? I mean, I would think it would be a great source of cheap labor for you at least. Or is there kind of a wall between what you guys are responsible for and what students? >> Absolutely we try to support faculty and students as much as we can. And just to go back a little bit on the OmniSOC discussion. One of the things that we provide is internships for each of the universities that we work with. They have to sponsor at least three students every year and make that financial commitment. We bring them on site for three weeks. They learn us alongside the other analysts, information security analysts and work in a real world environment and gain those skills to be able to go back to their institutions and do an additional work there. So it's a great program for us to work with students. I think the other thing that we do is we provide obviously the infrastructure that enable our faculty members to do the research that they need to do. Whether that's through Big Red 200, our Supercomputer or just kind of the everyday infrastructure that allows them to do what they need to do. We have an environment on premise called our Intelligent Infrastructure, that we provide managed access to hardware and storage resources in a way that we know it's secure and they can utilize that environment to do virtually anything that they need in a server environment. >> Dave, I want to get back to the GigaPOP, which you mentioned earlier you're the managing director of the Indiana GigaPOP. What exactly is it? >> Well, the GigaPOP and there are a number of GigaPOP around the country. It was really the aggregation facility for Indiana and all of the universities in Indiana to connect to outside resources. GigaPOP has connections to internet too, the commodity internet, Esnet, the Big Ten or the BTAA a network in Chicago. It's a way for all universities in Indiana to connect to a single source to allow them to connect nationally to research organizations. >> And what are the benefits of having this collaboration of university. >> If you could think of a researcher at Indiana wants to do something with a researcher in Wisconsin, they both connect to their research networks in Wisconsin and Indiana, and they have essentially direct connection. There's no commodity internet, there's no throttling of of capacity. Both networks and the interconnects because we use internet too, are essentially UNT throttled access for the researchers to do anything they need to do. It's secure, it's fast, easy to use, in fact, so easy they don't even know that they're using it. It just we manage the networks and organize the networks in a way configure them that's the path of least resistance and that's the path traffic will take. And that's nationally. There are lots of these that are interconnected in various ways. I do want to get back to the labor point, just for a moment. (laughs) Because... >> You're here to claim you're not violating any labor laws. Is that what you're going to be? >> I'm here to hopefully hire, get more people to be interested to coming to IU. >> Stop by the booth. >> It's a great place to work. >> Exactly. >> We hire lots of interns and in the network space hiring really experienced network engineers, really hard to do, hard to attract people. And these days when you can work from anywhere, you don't have to be any place to work for anybody. We try to attract as many students as we can. And really we're exposing 'em to an environment that exists in very few places. Tens of thousands of wireless access points, big fast networks, interconnections and national international networks. We support the Noah network which supports satellite systems and secure traffic. It really is a very unique experience and you can come to IU, spend lots of years there and never see the same thing twice. We think we have an environment that's really a good way for people to come out of college, graduate school, work for some number of years and hopefully stay at IU, but if not, leave and get a good job and talk well about IU. In fact, the wireless network today here at SC was installed and is managed by a person who manages our campus network wireless, James Dickerson. That's the kind of opportunity we can provide people at IU. >> Aaron, I'd like to ask, you hear a lot about everything moving to the cloud these days, but in the HPC world I don't think that move is happening as quickly as it is in some areas. In fact, there's a good argument some workloads should never move to the cloud. You're having to balance these decisions. Where are you on the thinking of what belongs in the data center and what belongs in the cloud? >> I think our approach has really been specific to what the needs are. As an institution, we've not pushed all our chips in on the cloud, whether it be for high performance computing or otherwise. It's really looking at what the specific need is and addressing it with the proper solution. We made an investment several years ago in a data center internally, and we're leveraging that through the intelligent infrastructure that I spoke about. But really it's addressing what the specific need is and finding the specific solution, rather than going all in in one direction or another. I dunno if Jet Stream is something that you would like to bring up as well. >> By having our own data center and having our own facilities we're able to compete for NSF grants and work on projects that provide shared resources for the research community. Just dream is a project that does that. Without a data center and without the ability to work on large projects, we don't have any of that. If you don't have that then you're dependent on someone else. We like to say that, what we are proud of is the people come to IU and ask us if they can partner on our projects. Without a data center and those resources we are the ones who have to go out and say can we partner on your project? We'd like to be the leaders of that in that space. >> I wanted to kind of double click on something you mentioned. Couple of things. Historically IU has been I'm sure closely associated with Chicago. You think of what are students thinking of doing when they graduate? Maybe they're going to go home, but the sort of center of gravity it's like Chicago. You mentioned talking about, especially post pandemic, the idea that you can live anywhere. Not everybody wants to live in Manhattan or Santa Clara. And of course, technology over decades has given us the ability to do things remotely and IU is plugged into the globe, doesn't matter where you are. But have you seen either during or post pandemic 'cause we're really in the early stages of this. Are you seeing that? Are you seeing people say, Hey, thinking about their family, where do I want to live? Where do I want to raise my family? I'm in academia and no, I don't want to live in Manhattan. Hey, we can go to IU and we're plugged into the globe. And then students in California we see this, there's some schools on the central coast where people loved living there when they were in college but there was no economic opportunity there. Are you seeing a shift, are basically houses in Bloomington becoming unaffordable because people are saying, you know what, I'm going to stay here. What does that look like? >> I mean, for our group there are a lot of people who do work from home, have chosen to stay in Bloomington. We have had some people who for various reasons want to leave. We want to retain them, so we allow them to work remotely. And that has turned into a tool for recruiting. The kid that graduates from Caltech. Doesn't want to stay in Caltech in California, we have an opportunity now he can move to wherever between here and there and we can hire him do work. We love to have people come to Indiana. We think it is a unique experience, Bloomington, Indianapolis are great places. But I think the reality is, we're not going to get everybody to come live, be a Hoosier, how do we get them to come and work at IU? In some ways disappointing when we don't have buildings full of people, but 40 paying Zoom or teams window, not kind the same thing. But I think this is what we're going to have to figure out, how do we make this kind of environment work. >> Last question here, give you a chance to put in a plug for Indiana University. For those those data scientists those researchers who may be open to working somewhere else, why would they come to Indiana University? What's different about what you do from what every other academic institution does, Aaron? >> Yeah, I think a lot of what we just talked about today in terms of from a network's perspective, that were plugged in globally. I think if you look beyond the networks I think there are tremendous opportunities for folks to come to Bloomington and experience some bleeding edge technology and to work with some very talented people. I've been amazed, I've been at IU for 20 years and as I look at our peers across higher ed, well, I don't want to say they're not doing as well I do want brag at how well we're doing in terms of organizationally addressing things like security in a centralized way that really puts us in a better position. We're just doing a lot of things that I think some of our peers are catching up to and have been catching up to over the last 10, 12 years. >> And I think to sure scale of IU goes unnoticed at times. IU has the largest medical school in the country. One of the largest nursing schools in the country. And people just kind of overlook some of that. Maybe we need to do a better job of talking about it. But for those who are aware there are a lot of opportunities in life sciences, healthcare, the social sciences. IU has the largest logistics program in the world. We teach more languages than anybody else in the world. The varying kinds of things you can get involved with at IU including networks, I think pretty unparalleled. >> Well, making the case for high performance computing in the Hoosier State. Aaron, Dave, thanks very much for joining you making a great case. >> Thank you. >> Thank you. >> We'll be back right after this short message. This is theCUBE. (upbeat music)

(mid-tempo music) >> Announcer: Live, from Los Angeles, it's The Cube. Covering Open source Summit North America 2017. Brought to you by the Linux Foundation and Red Hat. >> Okay welcome back and we're live in Los Angeles for The Cube's exclusive coverage of the Open Source Summit North America. I'm John Furrier, my co-host Stu Miniman, Our next guest is Steve Pousty, who's the Director of Developer Advocacy for Red Hat, Cube alumni, we last spoke at the Cisco Devnet Create, which is their new kind of cloud-native approach. Welcome Back. >> Thank you, thank you, glad to be here. >> We're here at the Open Source Summit, which is a recognition that of all these kind of ... With LinuxCon, all these things, coming events, it's a big ten event, love the direction, >> Yeah Validation to what's already happened and the recognition of open source, where Linux is at the heart of all that, Red Hat also you guys are the Linux standard, and gold standard, but there's more- >> We like to think of it that way, but- >> But there's more than Linux on top of it now, so this is a recognition that open source is so much more. >> For sure, I'm mean you can even see ... Who would've thought that there'd be a whole huge hubbub about Facebook doing a separate license for their react libraries and all the interactions with Apache, the Apache Foundation. Open source is so much ... it's the mainstream now. Like, basically, it's very hard to release a proprietary product right now and come up with some justification about why you have to do it. >> And why, and can it even be as good. >> Steve: Right. >> There's two issues, justification and performance. >> Yeah, quality, all that stuff. And also, customers' acceptability of that. Like, "Oh wait, you mean I can't actually even see the code? "I can't modify the code, I can't pay you to modify the code "and share it with everybody else?" I think customers have come to a whole ... Users of open source stuff, it's so permeated now that I think it's hard to be in the market without ... I mean, look at everybody who's here. Some of the people that are here were some of the biggest closed source people before. >> John: Microsoft is here. >> Exactly. >> John: IBM is here, although they've always been open, they were big on Linux early on. >> Yes. >> But now you're seeing the ecosystem grow, so we see some scale coming, but there's still a lot of work that needs to get done. We see greatness, like Kubernetes and Serverless offering great promise and hope for either multi-cloud workflow, workload management, all those cool stuff. But there's still some work to be done. >> Steve: For sure. >> What's your take on progress, where are we, what's the ... some of those under the hood things that need to get worked on? >> Well so, progress, I think ... the funny part is our expectations have changed so much over time that, so Kubernetes is about a little over two years old, and we're all like, oh it's moving so s-- why is it not doing this, this, and this? Whereas if this was like 10 years ago, the rate at which Kubernetes is moving is phenomenal. So, basically, every quarter there is a new release of Kubernetes, and we basically built OpenShift as a distribution on top of Kubernetes, and so we're delivering to our customers every quarter as well, and a bunch of them are like, "This is too fast, this is too fast, "like, we can't integrate all these changes." But at the same time, they say, "But don't slow down." Because, "Oh, next release we're going to get this thing "that we want and we know we want to go to that release." So, I think Kubernetes definitely has more growing room, but the thing is, how much it's already being seen as the standard, it's the ... so the way I like to talk about it, and I'll talk about this in my talk later, I think for Red Hat, Kubernetes is the cloud Linux kernel. It's the exact same story all over again. It's this infrastructure that everybody's going to build on. Now there are people who are standing up OpenStack on Kubernetes, or on OpenShift. So basically saying, "I don't want to install and manage "my Openstack, it's too difficult. "Give me some JSON and some components "and I'll just use Kubernetes as my operating plane." >> We saw Kubernetes right out of the gates, Stu and I, at the first Cube-Con, we were present at creation, and just on the doorstep of that thing just unfolded, and we saw the orchestration piece is huge, but I want to get your take if you can share with the audience, why Kubernetes has taken the world by storm. Why is it so relevant? What's all the hubbub about with Kubernetes? Share your opinion. >> Okay, so remember ... okay so this is a red shirt, and remember I work at Red Hat, so this obviously a biased opinion. I want to be up front about that. >> John: In your biased opinion ... >> Right, well as opposed to a neutral opinion, right, we definitely, so, I say that in front of my audiences just so that ... go do your own research, but from my perspective and what I've seen in the market place, there was a lot of orchestration and scheduling out there, then it kind of narrowed down, there's three players I would say right now. The three players all end with Kubernetes, but I just started with it (laughs). There's Kubernetes, there is Mesosphere, and there's Docker Swarm. I see those as being the three that are out there right now. And I think the reason we're ... So I won't talk about the others, but I see those ... Why Kubernetes has won is, one, community. So they have done a great job of being upstream, working with all people, being a very open community, open to working with others, not trying to make things just so it benefits Google's business but to benefit everybody. The other reason is the size of that community, right, everybody working together. The third is I think they, so some of it's luck, right? >> John: Yeah, timing is everything. >> Timing is everything. >> John: You're on a wave, and you're on your board and a big wave comes, you surf it, right? >> That's exactly, so I think what happened with Mesosphere is they're a great scheduler, and a lot of people said they were the best scheduler to start with. But they didn't really focus on containers to start with and it seems like they missed ... Like, Kubernetes said, "No, it's all about containers "and we're going to focus on container workload." And that's right where everybody else was. And so it was like, "I don't want to write "all that extra stuff from Mesosphere. "I want to do it with Kubernetes 'cause that's containers." And so that's the bit of luck lining up with the market. So I'd say it's the community but also recognizing that it's about containers to start with and containers are kind of taking over. >> Yeah, Steve, take us inside containers. You're wearing a shirt that says "Linux is Containers" on the front, if our audience could see the back it says "Containers are Linux." >> Steve: Exactly. >> Of course, Red Hat heavily involved. You're in the weeds, dealing with things that we're doing to make stability of containers, make sure it works in other environments. Tell us some of the things you're working on, some of the projects, and the like. >> So, some of the projects I'll be showing today, one is based off of OpenScap, Open S-C-A-P, it's another open consortium for scanning for vulnerabilities. We've written something called Atomic Scan, so it can take any OpenScap provider, plug it in to Atomic Scan, and you can scan a container image without having to actually run it. So, you don't actually have to start it up, it actually just goes in. The other thing I'm going to be talking about today is Bilda, this is part of the CNCF stuff. This is the ability to actually build a runC-compatible container without ever using Docker or MOBI. The way, a totally different approach to it, what you basically do is you say, "I want this container from this other container, or from blank," then you have a container there and then you actually mount the file system. So rather than actually booting a container and doing all sorts of steps in the container itself, you actually mount the file system, do normal operations on your machine like it was your normal file system, and then actually commit at the end. So it's another way for some of our customers that really like that idea of how they want to build and manage containers. But also, there's a bunch more. There's Kryo, which is the common runtime interface, and the implementation of it, so that Kubernetes can now run on an alternative container technology. This is Kryo, it's agnostic. If you looked at Kelsey Hightower's latest "Kubernetes and Anger," I think, or "Kubernetes the Hard Way" or something. His latest is building it all on Kryo. So rather than running on Docker, it runs ... All your container running happens on Kryo. I'm not trying to say, well of course I think it's better, but I think the point that we're really seeing is, by everything moving in to CNCF and the Linux Foundation and getting around standards, it's really enabled the ecosystem to take off. Like, TekTonic and CoreOS have done that with Rocket. We're going to see a lot more blossoming. The fertilizer has been applied, back from our ... >> Yeah, CNCF of two years old, I mean their fertilizer down big time, you got the manure and all the thousand flowers are blooming from that. >> Yeah, between Prometheus, I mean just, Prometheus, Istio, there's just ... I can't even keep track of it all. >> So Steve, you were talking earlier. Customers are having a hard time with that quarterly release. >> Steve: Yes. >> How do they keep up with all these projects, I mean you know, we rattled through all of 'em. You've got 'em all down pat, but the typical customer, do they need to worry about what do they have to focus on, how do they keep up with the pace change, how do they absorb all of this? >> Okay so it highly depends on the customer. There are some customers who are not our customers, I'll just say users, who are advanced enough on their own, who they're out there basically just, they're consuming the tip of what's coming out of CNCF. All that stuff, and they're picking and choosing and they're doing that all. For Red Hat, a lot of our customers are, "I like all that technology, you're our trusted advisor, "when you release it as a product "and I know I can sit on it for three years, "because you'll support it for at least three years, "maybe five years, then I'm going to start to consume it "and you'll actually probably put it into a more usable form for me." 'Cause a lot of the upstream stuff isn't necessary made direct for consumption. >> How are you guys dealing with the growth prospects. We've been talking about this all morning, this has been the big theme of this show is, not only just the renaming of a variety of different events, LinuxCon, but Open Source Summit is an encapsulation of all the projects that are blossoming across the board. So, the scale issues, and as a participant, Red Hat, >> Steve: Yes. >> Your biased opinion, but you're also incentive and you guys are active in the community. The growth that's coming is going to put pressure on the system. It may change the relationship between communities and vendors and how they're all working together, so again, to use the river analogy, there's a lot of water going to be pumping through the system. And so how's that going to impact the ecosystem, is it going to be the great growth that could flood everything, is there a potential for that, I mean you're an ecosystem guy, so the theory is there, it's like, Jim's stepping up with the Linux Foundation. I talked to him yesterday and he recognizes it. >> Steve: Yeah. >> But he also doesn't want to get in the way, either. >> Steve: No, no, no- >> So there's a balance of leadership that's needed. Your thoughts. >> So, I mean I think one of the things ... So I mean you know the Linux kernel has its benevolent dictator, and that works well for that one community, but then you'll see something like Kubernetes, where it's much more of a community base, there is no benevolent dictator for life on Kubernetes. I think one of the nice things that the Linux Foundation has done, and which Red Hat has acknowledged is, you know, let the community govern the way that works for that community. Don't try to force necessarily one model on it. In terms of the flood part that you were talking about, I think, if you want to go back to rivers, there's cycles in terms of 10 year floods, 100 year floods, I think what we're seeing right now is a big flood, and then what'll happen out of this is some things will shake out and other things won't. I don't expect every vendor that's here to be here next year. >> And find the high ground, I mean, I mean the numbers that Jim shared in his opening keynote is by 2026, 400 million libraries are going to be out there versus today's 64 roughly million. >> Steve: Right. >> You know, Ed from Cisco thinks that's understated, but now there's more code coming in, more people, and so a new generation is coming on board. This is going to be the great flood in open source. >> I also think it's a great opportunity for some companies. I mean, I'm not high enough in Red Hat to know what we're doing in that space, but it's also a great opportunity for some companies to help with that. Like, I think, that's one of the other things that Linux Foundation did was set up the Javascript Foundation. That is a community that-- >> But that doesn't have Node.js, it's a little bit separate. >> No, I know, but think-- >> You're talking about the js, okay. >> But I'm talking about, but if you think about the client-side javascript, forget Node. Just think about client-side javascript and how many frameworks are coming up all the time, and new libraries. >> Stu: That's a challenge. >> So I think actually that community could be one that could be good to maybe gain some lessons from, as things happen more in open source. I think there are other open source communities. Like, I'm wondering like GNOME-- >> But the feedback on the js community is that there's a lot of challenges in the volume of things happening. >> And that's coming for us though, right? >> Yeah. >> That's what's coming, that's what's going to come for this larger ecosystem, so I think maybe there's market opportunity, maybe there's new governance models, maybe there's ... I mean, this is where innovation comes from. There's a new problem that's come, it's a good problem. >> Your next point of failure is your opportunity to innovate. >> Exactly, and it's a good problem to have, right, as opposed to, we have too few projects, and we don't really, no one really likes them. Instead, now it's like, we've got so many projects and people are contributing, and everybody's excited, how do we manage that excitement? >> So another dynamic that we're observing, and again we're just speculating, we're pontificating, we're opining ... is fashion. Fashion, fashionable projects. Never fight fashion, my philosophy is. In marketing, don't fight the fashion. >> Steve: Right. >> CNCF is fashionable right now, people love it. It's popular, it's trendy, it's the hip new night club if you will in open source. Other projects are just as relevant. So, relevance and trending sometimes can be misconstrued. How do you guys think about that, because this is a dynamic, everyone wants to go to the best party. There a fear of missing out, I'm going to go check out Kubernetes, but also relevance matters. >> Yes. >> John: Your thoughts. >> So I've seen this discussion internally in engineering all the time, when we're talking about, 'cause you know OpenShift is trying to build a real distribution, not like, "Oh here is Kubernetes," but a real distribution. Like when Red Hat ships you the Linux, gives you Linux, we don't just say, "Here's the Linux kernel, have a good time." We put a whole bunch of stuff around it, and we're trying to do that with Kubernetes as well, so we're constantly evaluating all the like, "Should we switch to Prometheus now, "when's the time to switch to Prometheus? "Oh it's trending really hot. "Oh but does it give us the features?" >> John: It's a balance. >> It's a balance, it's going to have to come down to, I hate to say it-- >> It's a community, people vote with their code, so if something has traction, you got to take a look at it. >> But I would say, and this has been going on for a while, and I've seen other people talk about it, if you are the lead on an open source project, and you want a lot of community, you have to get into marketing. You can't just do-- >> John: You got to market the project. >> You got to, and not in the nasty term of market, which is that I'm going to lie to you and like, what a lot of developers think about like, "Oh I'm just going to give you bullshit and lie to you, "and it's not going to be helpful." No, market in terms of just getting your word out there so at least people know about it. Lead with all your-- >> John: Socialize it. >> Yeah. I mean, that's what you got to get it, so there is a lot of chatter now. How do you get it noticed as a Twitter person, right? You have to do some, it's the same, it's going to be more like that for open source projects. >> John: So we're doing our share to kind of extract the signal from some of the noise out there, and it's great to talk to you about it because you help give perspective. And certainly Red Hat, you're biased, that's okay, you're biased. Now, take your Red Hat off. >> Okay. >> Hat off. Take your Red Hat hat off >> Steve: Propaganda hat off. >> and put your neutral hat on. An observation of Open Source Summit, I'll see that name change kind of significance in the sense it's a big ten event. This event here, what's your thoughts on what it means? >> Hey c'mon Steve, you've got a PhD in ecology, so we want some detailed analysis as to how this all goes together. >> I mean it's good marketing, Open Source Summit, good name change, little bit broader. >> I'm actually glad for it. So, I've gone to some other smaller events, and I actually like this, because it was hard for me to get to the smaller events, or to get quite enough people. Like this actually builds a critical mass, and more cross-fertilization, right, so it's much easier for me to talk to containers to car people. 'Cause automotive Linux is here as well, right? >> John: You can't avoid it, you see 'em in the hallways, you can say, "Hey, let's chat." >> "Let's talk about that stuff," whereas in the small ... So, you know, this is more about conferences. There's a good side and a bad side to everything, just like I tell my kids, "When you pick up a stick, you also have to pick up the other end of the stick." You can't just like have, "Oh this is a great part," but you don't get the bad part. So the great part about this, really easy to see a lot of people, see a lot of interesting things that are happening. Bad part about this, it's going to be hard, like if this was just CNCF, everybody here would be CNCF, all the talks would be CNCF, it's like you could deep dive and really go. So, I think this is great that they have this. I don't think this gets, should get rid of smaller, more focused events. >> Well at CubeCon, our CubeCon, the CNCF event in Austin, we'll be there for The Cube. That will be CNCF all the time. >> Steve: Exactly. I'm glad they're still doing that. >> So they're going to have the satellite event, and I think that's the best way to do it. I think a big ten event like this is good because, this is small even today, but with the growth coming, it'll be convention hall size in a matter of years. >> Well, exactly, and the fact that you made it into a big, and the fact that you've made it into this cohesive event, rather than going to somebody and saying, "Hey, sponsor these five events." Like, No. Sponsor this one big event, and then we'll get most of the people here for you. >> It's also a celebration, too. A lot of these big ten events are ... 'Cause education you can get online, there are all kinds of collaboration tools online, but when you have these big ten events, one of the rare things is it's the face to face, people-centric, in the moment, engagement. So you're learning in a different way. It's a celebration. So I think open source is just too important right now, that this event will grow in my opinion. >> Steve: For sure. >> Bring even thousands and thousands of people. >> I mean, another way-- >> John: 30,000 at some point, easily. >> Yeah, I think definitely it's theirs to lose, let's put it that way. >> John: (laughing) I'll tell that to Jim "Hey, don't screw it up!" >> Don't screw it up. I think the way that you could almost think of this is OSS-Con, right, instead of Comic-Con, this is like, this can become OSS-Con, which is like, they should probably ... In the same way that the Kubernetes Foundation works and grows with a lot of other people, it would be great if they could bring in other Foundations as well to this. I know this is being run by the Linux, but it'd be great if we could get some Apache in here, some Eclipse in here, I mean that would just be-- >> John: A total home run. >> Those foundations bringing it in-- >> That would truly make it an open source summit. >> Yeah, exactly, as opposed to the World Series that's only in the United States. >> Yeah. (laughing) >> Although you know, I was at a hotel recently, and they had baseball on, it was little league baseball though. Their World Series is actually, Little League World Series is actually the World Series. >> John: It's a global World Series. >> Yeah, like their-- >> John: It's the world. >> Yeah, as opposed to the MLB, right? >> Alright, Steve, great to have you on, any final thoughts on interactions you've had, things you've learned from this event you'd like to share and pass on? >> No, I just think the space is great, I'm really excited to be in it. I'm starting to move a little bit more up to the application tier at my role at the company and I'm excited about that, to actually ... So I've been working down at the container tier, and orchestration tier for a while, and now I'm excited to get back to like, "Well now let's actually build some cool stuff "and see what this enables on the up--" >> And DevOps is going mainstream, which is a great trend, you're starting to see that momentum beachhead on the enterprises, so-- >> Oh, one takeaway message, for microservices people, please put an Ops person on your microservice team. Usually they start with the DBA, and then they say the middle person and the front-end people. I really want to make sure that they start including Ops in your microservice teams-- >> John: And why is that, what'd you learn there? >> Well because if you're going to do microservices, you're going to be, the team's going to end up doing Ops-y work. And it's kind of foolish not to bring in someone who already knows ... The reason you want all the team together is because they're going to own that. And you also want them to share knowledge. So, if I was on a microservice team, I would definitely want an Ops person teaching me how to do Ops for our stuff. I don't want to reinvent that myself. >> You got to have the right core competencies on that team. >> Steve: Yeah. It's like having the right people in the right position. >> Steve: Exactly. >> Skill player. >> Steve: Yeah, exactly. Okay we're here live in Los Angeles, The Cube's coverage of Open Source Summit North America. I'm John Furrier, Stu Miniman. More live coverage after this short break. (electronic music)

>> Announcer: Boston, Massachusetts It's theCUBE. Covering OpenStack Summit 2017. Brought to you by the OpenStack Foundation, RedHat, and additional ecosystem support. (upbeat techno music fades out) >> Hi, I'm Stu Miniman, joined by John Troyer, and this is theCUBE, SiliconANGLE Media's live broadcast of OpenStack 2017 here in beautiful Boston, Massachusetts. Actually, the clouds have been breaking up, a little bit of sunshine here, and it's our third day of broadcasts. We have really a lot of our editorial segment today. Going to be talking to more community members, talking to one of the Superuser winners, a number of startups, and happy to start the day, Lisa-Marie Namphy who is the US OpenStack ambassador. CUBE alum, been on a number of times. Lisa, tell us what's new in your world. >> Thank you Stu, and thanks John and what a pleasure to be here with you folks, and hello, Boston and world, good morning. What's new, well the OpenStack ambassador program is expanding all the time, we just had a great session that Sonia did to kick off the day today to really talk about, you know, how to get involved in OpenStack, even if you're not necessarily a technical person. It's really important to acknowledge how everybody in our community can contribute, and that's one of the things the ambassador program does really well. So we just had a session on that. One of the things that I've done with our user group that is new and super exciting is I've morphed it into a little bit of the OpenStack in Containers user group. So I've been focusing a lot on containers, done 12 or 13 meetups on Kubernetes and or Docker since last summer, and I just had the pleasure of speaking in the CNCF communities track, communities day track yesterday, and that was so much fun, out there in the grand ballroom, so that's kind of some new and fun things we're doing. >> It's great, this is our fifth year doing theCUBE at this show, always a robust community, really. When we started coming, it was the people building it, Now we have a lot of the users, there's different sub-segments, can you speak a little bit to the kind of maturity of the community, and, you know how do people get involved in the ambassador program, how many are there geographically, number wise, diversity, those kind of things. >> Oh gosh, yeah so it's geo, or it's a worldwide program and it's been going a lot, and you're right, you know years ago, here it was the Design Summit, and we sat around and talked about, you know the next six months of the project, and then it morphed into more users, adoption, customers, operators are a really big one too. And now those things are all so big, we have operators, Midcycles, and all and the Design Summit has been, you know sequestered off into, separated out so that we can really focus here on the customers, the community, users, and those type of contributors as well. So things have changed a lot in the seven years since we've been doing OpenStack. The ambassador program is fantastic. The foundation has done a really good job in the last couple of years of acknowledging the contributions of the user community, and so not necessarily the code contributors only, but the people who are also spending as much time contributing in really significant ways to our community, and growing our commnity. Open source doesn't work without a community. So we know that, and we're doing a much better job of acknowledging who those people are and rewarding them. >> John: How many ambassadors worldwide? >> There's about twenty of us. I'm the only one in the US right now, but we're about to change that. I believe my friend Sheila is going to join and cover the East Coast, and I'll be able to do everything west of the Mississippi, but most countries only have one, and... >> And the role of an ambassador, do you do a lot of meetups? Do you go speak? You're there as a, for people to contact as well, right? >> Yeah, we generally recruit or ask people to be ambassadors if they are already doing those things, if they're already running a local user group, if they already have a brand in OpenStack, and they speak, and they kind of already know how to reach out to people, and how to inspire people, or people see them on stage, and that's why the foundation approached me to do it. I had been running the San Francisco Bay area meetup for three years, and speaking, I don't know this is probably my eighth, ninth, maybe tenth OpenStack Summit that I've been speaking at, and OpenStack days and all of that. And so, you kind of see who's already doing it. The cool thing about community is nobody is asked to do it, like you do it because you have a passion for it, because you love it, because it's the right thing to do, because it's helpful to push the technology forward because you have a passion for the technology, because you love people, all these reasons is why people get into it. So you find all over the world people who are doing this. They're already doing it and they're not being paid to do it they're doing it, those are the people you grab, because you know, there is a burnout level to it but those are the people who have enough passion about it and commitment, and believe in community that they're going to be successful at it. >> Can you talk a little bit about the Bay Area OpenStack user group? It's one of the largest OpenStack user groups, and one of the themes we've seen this week is a lot of talk about containers, a lot of talk about, well, Kubernetes, but containers in general, kind of demystifying the sometimes confusing story about where's OpenStack good for, where's the container layer good for, it turns out it's good for a couple different places, you can containerize OpenStack, you can also... A lot of talk about the app layer on top, but you actually, what you just said, you've actually expanded the conversation, you don't just sit there and say "this month we're talking about Neutron," you talk about a lot of different topics, and you bring people to the table. >> Yeah, San Francisco area, you are correct, it is the world's largest OpenStack user group, we have over 6,000 members. Not all of them are located in the Bay Area, I think people like to join the user group because we provide a lot of really good content, and we live stream our meetups, we have Google Hangouts, I record them all, they're all on our calendar, if you go to meetup.com/openstack, you get to us because we were the first one. So we do get a lot of people from around the world, and I write newsletters with lots of interesting information but it is a local community and we do encourage people to participate, so the meetups are super important and the only way to make sure that you keep your community strong and keep people coming back is to have phenomenal content in your meetups. So I work really hard to make sure that the content is interesting, that it's relevant, and the most exciting, most relevant conversation since last summer has been containers. The year before that it was networking, and it still kind of is and always will be. So we do a lot of meetups on networking, too, but containers has been what people want to talk about. They're trying to figure this out. OpenStack has reached a maturity level where people, you know, they're not necessarily learning or if they are they can take an OpenStack 101 course and those exist all over the place. So we've gone to the next level, and whether it was Cloud Foundry or now Containers we do like to talk about what else you can do with this fabulous technology, and how you should do it. So we've had meetups where we've presented OpenStack on communities, communities on OpenStack, where I personally came in and did a whole meetup on Kubernetes as the underlay, and Rob Starmer came in and did a whole workshop and hands-on about how to run OpenStack on containers. Yesterday our panel, you heard Dan Berg talk about just simplifying it, run everything in a container, but keep it as simple as possible, so what pieces do you need? So these are the conversations that we like to have in our user group, and people keep coming back because it's an exciting conversation. >> Yeah, expanding on that, you talked about just people are always coming, new people to the community that don't know it, people that are changing jobs all the time, new technologies, I mean, we all know community building is a constant, you know, reinvention in something, you keep needing to work How do the ambassadors, how do stay energized on it, how do you keep the momentum and the energy of the community going? >> Yeah, well the cool thing about an open source community is no matter where you're working, you're still part of the community. So I've worked with so many other people here, I don't even know where they are sometimes. I mean we don't tend to talk about what company we're actually working for, or who's paying your paycheck, and especially in the early days of the project that was definitely true, and so some of my good friends have been at four different companies in the time that we've been doing this OpenStack thing, but we're all still working on OpenStack, and I suspect Kubernetes will be very similar, or Docker. You know, how many people are working on Docker? But there's only 200 people that work for Docker, right? So these technologies kind of take on these lives of their own, and people do switch jobs a lot, but people come to meetups because it's a constant thing, and it's also a good place to keep networking and keep looking for work, so we got a lot of that. The beginning of every meetup, I ask for a show of hands of who's hiring. If I ask for who's looking, not everybody raises their hand but if you ask who's hiring, there's a lot of people hiring all the time, and so then the people can look around and say "okay I'm going to go talk to those people," so yeah, the networking is an important part. >> On that point, are you seeing any trends as to what are the roles that they're hiring for, or you know, companies or industries that definitely have changing skillsets, you know John spent a lot of time helping all those virtualization people moving to that next thing, what are you seeing? >> Engineering is the big one, and people are still looking for OpenStack engineers. I mean people ping me all the time, saying "do you know any OpenStack engineers?" So that's usually the number one thing, developers to help build out these things, and then also the companies that, you know, that aren't OpenStack companies, you know companies like GE that are trying to hire what, 20,000 developers in the next couple years, and Mercedes and Tesla, and you see all these companies that are trying to build out their software developer programs. So another role that is interesting that people are hiring for is these developer, DevRel, Developer IVC community roles to try to figure out, you know how are we going to build our developer community within our company? If these are really large companies, or you know, companies like IBM which have interest in things like the Apache Spark community, or you know, you find these pockets in these large companies as well. Or there's a lot of startups, you know unlike, probably not like Docker as much, but Kubernetes is going to have this ecosystem of partners that build around it, and these companies are popping up out of the woodwork and they're growing like crazy, and there's like 30 of them in the Bay Area, right? So they're really trying to expand as well. >> I wanted to ask about the general mood of the summit. My first summit... You know, it happens every six months. I've been impressed by how grounded people are, I see a lot of first time attendees, people starting new OpenStack installations in 2017 right now, here to learn... I'm just kind of curious, over the last couple summits is there anything different you see about here in Boston, anything you're looking forward to going to in the next one, in terms of kind of mood and how people are, are people feeling good, are people, you know, are people still puzzling out this container issue, or are people still talking about public versus private, or what are kind of the mood and conversations you hear from other community members? >> I think people are talking about public versus private again, not still right? I mean is it, that was kind of an interesting one, and I think Johnathan brought it up on main stage on the first day about that kind of readoption of private cloud, and that you know, we knew that was a sweet spot for OpenStack particularly in the US. You know, lots of public clouds running on other parts of the world, but that's a fun conversation, and it's containers of course, but not just containers. I think it was maybe Lauren Sell who put the slide up of all of those other technologies that are, you know affiliate now, and... >> Another ecosystem of open source projects >> Lisa: Yeah, yeah >> that can all interoperate with openstack. >> With Cloud Foundry, and Ansible was up there, and Ceph, and you had a slide full of technologies, OpenDaylight, that are all playing a role here and that the conversation has been about, and I just encouraged in the ambassador session and in the meetup sessions to do that with your meetup. Our meetup has been really successful and the people have loved it because we started bringing in this other technology. People want to talk about IoT, they want to talk about AI, they want to talk about machine learning, so there's those, they want to talk about, you know what are the best use cases for OpenStack so we showcased to GoDaddy what they built with Docker on top of OpenStack. So there's a lot of fun conversations to be had right now, and I think there's a buzz around here, you know that, what, day one when Johnathan put the slide up saying, you know, people have predicted the end of OpenStack and that was like four years ago or whatever, that was an awesome slide, right? I'm sure talked to him about it. >> Yeah, I absolutely traded notes, and caught opinion about it, too. Lisa, you live in The Valley, I'm curious about perception in The Valley, you know, OpenStacks now been around seven years, it's kind of, you know, it's matured, it's moved on, some called it boring because we fixed some of the main issues, you know We mentioned all the OpenStack days with you know Cloud Foundry, Kubernetes, all these software pieces on top, what do you hear in The Valley when people talk about OpenStack, any misperceptions you'd want to clarify? >> Yeah, yeah it's not boring. It's funny when you say to a California girl "you live in The Valley," I'd be like, "let's just say The Silicon Valley." Not the, not the other Valley. >> Stu: Not the Valley girl >> Don't make me start talking like that, right? >> Stu: Oh my god! (laughs) >> Right, so, no. It's never boring, it's never... It hasn't been boring from day one, and there's been times where I felt like okay we've been talking about infrastructure for years now, let's talk about some other things, but I love the way at this conference they're talking about, they're calling it the "open infrastructure conference." You know, this is what OpenStack has become, and that just opens the conversation. You know, I love that shift. There's always something exciting to talk about, and I don't mean the little inside baseball things, like should we have done Big Ten, should Stackalytics go away, I mean, you know people like to talk about that stuff, but I don't find that customers or the people at the meetups are talking about that stuff. People at the meetups are talking about you know, how should we run this with Kubernetes? How do these technologies fit together? You know, lots of different things, you know where does Docker play into it? Networking is still a conversation and a problem to still be solved, and how are we going to do this? We had OpenContrail do a meetup with us a couple of weeks ago. There's still a lot of interest in figuring out the networking piece of it, and how to do that better. So we're never going to run out of things to talk about. >> Alright, so how do more people get involved, how do they find their meetups, where do they find resources? >> Most of, openstack.org has a list of all the communities, but most of the communities use meetup.com, almost globally, so if you go to meetup.com, and you put in your geo, you'll find one. You can contact your local ambassador. If you want to get involved, I say just go to a meetup. I mean you can't start leading communities until you participate in communities. There is no way to phone this in. You have to, it's hands-on, roll up your sleeves, let's get to work and participate, and have some fun. So go to a local meetup, and meet your meetup organizers, volunteer, help, and it's so rewarding. Some of my best friends that I have, I've met through OpenStack or open source projects. It creates many opportunities for jobs. So just start going to meetups and get involved, and if you want to be an ambassador, there's a list on the website of how to figure that out. Tom Fifield runs the whole program with Sonia's help out of Australia, but regionally we're always looking for help. There's no shortage of roles that people can play if people really want to. >> Definitely a vibrant community here, doing well, Lisa-Marie Namphy, always a pleasure to catch up with you, and we have a full day of programming coming, so stay tuned and thank you for watching the cube. >> Lisa: Thanks Stu, thanks John. (upbeat techno music)