>> Hi from Toronto, Canada. It's the CUBE covering Blockchain Futurist Conference 2018 brought to you by the CUBE. >> Welcome back to the live coverage. Day Two of the CUBE here in Toronto, Ontario in Canada for the untraceable Blockchain Futurist Conference wall-to-wall coverage Day Two. A lot of action going on. Tons of great content, tons of great after-hour networking. Just overall great vibe. In light of the market crashing, bitcoin stabilizing, some old coins getting crushed. We got it all covered for here. I'm John Furrier, your host for the CUBE, and our next guest is Nithin Eapen, who's the chief investment officer of Arcadia Crypto Ventures. Arcadia Crypto Ventures, welcome to the CUBE, good to see you. >> Hey good to see you too John. Thank you for having me here. >> Keep alumni in the know. Okay. So first of all, you're an investor in crypto. Everyone's running for the hills. A dip is happening, a crash, or some will say. Your perspective, what's happening in the market? >> See, happening in the market. So typically just like in any asset class, there was a huge run-up that happened very quickly. It didn't go up slow, alright? And the geeks were in early, the libertarians came in after that, then there were speculators. And the retail market also came in, and they all came in together for let's say the December after the November Thanksgiving week and everybody learnt about cryptos, they came in. Alright, the next set of guys haven't come in. Alright? So there's nothing for them there. Nobody's holding them there. And there were expecting the institutional investors to come in and that hasn't happened due to custody problems, ETF problems and all that stuff. Alright, it started going down. The weak hands are falling. The weak hands are keeping on falling and as with any technology, any bubble of people have come in, now they feel that okay the world is coming to an end and they are selling all their stuff. All the ICOs that have raised money in Ether, selling the Ether. All this together is pushing it down, and everybody's waiting for that next set of investors, or the, every 10 X, I mean, an asset goes up, there's a new set of guys who are supposed to come in, and this time it hasn't come in and we're waiting for that. >> You're on the panel here at the event. A lot of different panels, but one panel I watched you were on, you talked about the token model, people were holding Ether. It's kind of a debate, you know, and Bradley Rotter, another investor was saying, hey, there are too many tokens out there. You had different perspective, but one of the things I wanted to get your reaction to is that people who held on to the Ether lost their runway and it creates a harder road to hold. So people were converting to Fiat. This is a big issue. How are we going to get by this? This whole lot of Ether, more people are going to come in. The dynamics of investing in this token model, has it changed? How are you looking at it, and I'd say, how do you help startups? >> So regarding a lot of tokens, first thing is there are a lot of tokens out there. See that is going to happen. It's just like in the 1999, okay, a lot of websites and a lot of Internet companies, pet.com, everybody's an Internet company. Same way, everybody is a token. 95 to 99 percent of them are going to go away and the good ones will rise from those ashes, okay. Now regarding runway, a lot of these projects have pretty much raised enough money for 50 years of runway. So it has crashed one-fifth, okay, they have 10 years worth of runway. Typically, in the olden days, a small company with an idea or a MVP was max going to raise one million to two or three million, alright? And all of them anyway have that even after Ether has crashed. I'm saying, just don't panic okay? You still have 10 years worth of runway. Utilize that, build upon it because the high period may be over where you can just raise money on a white paper. You've got the money, build yourself. You promised your real investors I'm going to build this great thing. So this is where we're going to see the great founders to the average and the bad ones where they've hit a wall, they don't know what to do, they'll fold their hands and walk away. Really good founders, they're resilient. They will, no matter how hard they're pushed to the wall, they're going to come up with the product, you see, and they're going to try to meet customer demands. They're going to get through the feedback loop, check what the customer wants and start delivering it. >> So basically what you're saying is there's so much money being raised, and I agree with you by the way. If you go the classic venture capital route, if you had a Powerpoint or prototype or even a working product with recurring revenue, your serious preferred stock financing will be anywhere from three to 15 million. >> Oh my god. And that's high end. >> That's a high end. >> 15 million will be on the high end. Some cases are raising 50 million, some cases 70 plus million, so even if you cut that in half, it's still a better outcome on the first round. I agree at that, so I think that's interesting. The other one that you mentioned is that things are dynamic, that we're seeing here at the show is in the hallways, everybody's talking about flight-to-quality. And I was talking yesterday on the wrap-up of Day One that you can tell the good deals from the bad deals by is the venture architecture working for the coin, or is the coin working for the venture architecture. And so this flight-to-quality combined with how people are optimizing their build up is critical. >> Yes. >> Talk about some things that you're seeing with this flight-to-quality. Is there anything in particular? Is it blockchain? Is it token economics? Where's the quality deals from your perspective? >> I feel quality lies in the founder of this. The founding team, because the idea, if you really ask me what is an idea here? An idea is just like mental masturbation. Guys who sit there can come up with so many ideas. That's what ideas are, okay? Now taking these ideas to fruition, like building it. There's a capital raising part, okay? Now a lot of people are good at capital raising. They're raising money and a lot of capital coming in. That's awesome because you need capital to attract talent to the space because a lot of talent who are maybe in astrophysics or in mechanical engineering, you want that talent to come here and come with ideas and build the stuff. Okay, the capital has come in. Now once the capital has come in, you really have to build the stuff. Even after you build the stuff, you have to go find the customer right? You have to go and acquire customers and all these three things coming together are so hard in reality. And that's why the venture capital always give a little bit of money to make sure that these guys are not wasting the whole thing away, right? >> Well, the other thing I want to get in touch, get on to you is here is that, in the old days, Silicon Valley, you got to move there, the VCs were there. Now, talking about the global phenomenon, the capital formation is both inside the United States and outside the United States. Certainly inside the United States, you're starting to see the formation around traditional structures, security token, which is more like, it feels like a security, a more preferred financing model. Equity's now involved. Outside United States, a booming utility token market. Your thoughts on how that's progressing, still open, still crazy? What's your thoughts? >> So the capital model, the beauty that has happened today is, earlier, you had to pitch to two hundred VCs or three hundred VCs to get one guy to put money into it. Most of the time, they'll be wasting your time, alright? So you had to go to them to get a million. And you didn't have any other option. You couldn't get it from a small enthusiast of your project to give you five hundred bucks or a thousand bucks. So now, you have that option, okay. Now that option is being cut by regulation, by the STC and people like that coming in saying, oh you can't do that, it has to be a security token. Alright, let's make it a security token. The moment you make it a security token, my question is, can you raise money from outside? Are you stopping that? Then again it doesn't really make sense. You're cutting the small investor, the chance for him to buy into a good, okay? It was only the VCs like Sequoia, or somebody like that, who could access a deal like Google. Now we have a chance for something like Google to come up with the common man whose putting five hundred, like Ethereum. There was no venture capitalist or Wall Street who got involved in Ethereum. The real money was made by very common people who supported a decentralized world computer. >> All CVCs get it now, market entries or whoever's getting involved, starting to see VCs dabble in there. Has that changed the investment dynamic at all? >> It has because the VCs, they have this feeling they've missed out, right? So now they're putting in five and 10 million dollars into a project, valuing a project to three hundred million. It changes the dynamics because now all these guys, like, there are so many projects that are raising like a hundred million because the VCs, all these private investors, are giving 10, 15, 20 million. Like recently for example, they've raised a 300 million dollar fund. They can't invest 10 thousand to 50 thousand to 100 thousand, right? They have to push 10 million to manage the money. That is skewing stuff, and I personally am not very interested in those kinds of projects, because it's without a community power at that time, so I don't know how the token economics is going to be fruitful for the second investor, the third investor. >> And Block Tower, we found out yesterday, is also investing in putting a fund together, a venture fund. It's interesting. We'll see how that shakes out. One thing that is going to change is the dynamics. You mentioned community, obviously, a big part of that. Big community here at the Futurist event, Toronto. So they've got a Canadian culture, a lot of Ethereum DNA in this area. What are you hearing at this event? What are some of the things that you're hearing in the hallways? You've obviously been on some panels at this event, and you're highly networked. What are you hearing? What's, with your ears to the ground, what's it telling you? >> You were talking about Block Tower, yes, they're doing a venture fund. It's great. He's a very very smart investor and they're going to do very well. On the ground, so most of the questions right now are coming, so we've reached the point that okay, we have built up the blockchains or the bit coins. We want it to be faster, alright? Everybody's looking for scalability. Who can bring scalability? The EOS guys are out there. They are saying they can do, you know what, five thousand or 10 thousand or 100 thousand transactions per second. So scalability is a very very big thing. I personally consider something like interoperability, bigger. Interoperability in the sense, alright, so now you have these multiple chains. It's just like multiple types of phones. Now imagine you had an AT&T phone and you couldn't call the Verizon phone customer, alright? We're at that point. We have all these chains, there's Ethereum, there's One Chain, there's EOS. Okay, I've built, let's say, a distributor app, let's say it's a poker app on Ethereum. But I can't play with the guy who's on EOS right? What if he also wants to play poker in this poker app? Is there somewhere we can make this integrate and interoperable? Now to make it interoperable, now we have, if we go into details, there are assets, there are tokens on both sides. How can we transfer tokens from one chain to the other chain making sure there's no double-spend happening? >> I mean there's two things. That was the consumability, making it easy to use, one. And two, I think you're right on. Interoperability's huge. You got to have that. >> Interface, as you said. Interface is big. To make it simple, it's still the geeks. In geeks, a lot of people are using command lang prompts. You can't expect the common man sitting at home. It's just like email. Email was there from 1978. It's only when all these tools like, beginning '94, and the browser came in, that people started using it. So those things have to come in. >> A lot of work's got to get done. So many on the blockchain side. Well, great to have you on. Good to see you. Congratulations on your panels and this afternoon, you're doing a good job. Thanks for coming on. I appreciate it. >> Thank you so much, John. >> Any predictions by the way? >> Predictions, I don't know, I'm not a predictions guy. I just go with the market. >> Price of bitcoin 20 thousand? >> Oh I never get into those predictions. I never want to get it. I think that it's possible that the bear market can continue for a longer time based on the fact that the newer money cannot come in. It has happened before. Bitcoin has fallen so many times at the 70, 80 percent range and then it stayed stagnant for a year before the next round up came. >> And certainly we got work (inaudible). Thanks for coming on. Keep coverage here live in Toronto, Ontario. Keep coverage here with the untraceable Blockchain Futurist Conference here of two days. Day Two, keep coverage. We're back after this short break. Thanks for watching. (electronic music)

(techno music) >> Announcer: Live, from New York, it's theCUBE. Covering Blockchain Week. Now, here's John Furrier. (techno music) >> Hello and welcome back. this is the exclusive coverage from theCUBE. I'm John Furrier, the co-host. We're here in New York City for special on the ground coverage. We go out where all the action is. It's happening here in New York City for Blockchain Week, New York, #BlockchainWeekNY Of course, Consensus 2018 and a variety of other events, happening all over the place. We got D-Central having a big boat event here, tons of events from Hollywood. We got New York money, we got Hollywood money, we got nerd money, it's money everywhere, and of course great deals are happening, and I'm here with two friends who have done a deal. Al Burgio is a CEO of DigitalBits co-founder, and Nithin who's the partner at Arcadia Crypto Ventures. You guys we've, you know, we're like family now, and you're hiding secrets from me. You did a deal. Al, what's going on here? Some news. >> Yeah, well first John, thanks for having us. We always love coming on the show, and really enjoy spending time with you and so forth. We, you know previous conversations that we've had, we were not out there fundraising. But really had the opportunity to meet a lot of great people Nithin and his firm being definitely one of them. And as a result of that, really building this, say, following, these relationships within the venture community, more specifically the crypto venture community. When we were ready to actually go out and do, let's say a first round, for us it happened very quickly, and it was a result of being able to leverage those relationships that we had. For me, it was kind of remarkable to see that support come and happen so quickly. Normally venture, it's just a process. Many many months. >> John: Long road. >> Then a month to close. >> John: Kiss all the frogs. >> Yeah, here it's like, you know, people can do due diligence on the fly, You have an opportunity with events like this. >> John: They're smart. >> They're smart, and and there's an opportunity to really foster these relationships in this really tight-knit community. And, you know, Nithin and his firm being obviously one of those. And so when we were ready to go out and do our first round, it happened quickly, and I'd like to think that in a lot of ways, it happened amongst friends. >> Well, you're being humble. We've been covering you, you've been on theCUBE earlier, when you just started the idea, so it's fun to watch you have this idea come to fruition, but you're in a, you're hitting a TAM a Total Available Market that's pretty large. And that's one of the secrets, to have a TAM. Aggressive bold move, we'll how it turns out for you, but you know, you got to have the moonshot, you're going after the loyalty market, which is completely run by the syndicate, what do you want to call it, the mafia of loyalty. >> Yeah, well, I would say that in some cases, those that are supporting us see that as really just one use case. Because we built this general-purpose blockchain, one of the use cases and one of the first use cases that were out there to support, happens to be the loyalty space. >> John: Big. And it's massive, highly fragmented but massive market, and we can solve a lot of liquidity issues with our technology. But then it goes beyond that. So it's a big market at the start, and then that can scale even greater from there. and I think that's part of what, I mean obviously, I'm not going to speak for Nithin. >> Nithin, let me weigh in here, pass the mic over. Nithin talk about the deal, why these guys? I know you met 'em, you like Al, and the feedback I've heard from other folks is he's a classic entrepreneur and that obviously, the entrepreneur gets the deal, but obviously you don't just give money 'cause you like someone. What about this deal is it that you guys like? You guys been there early, you got some great people on your team, what about this deal is it that you like? >> Sure, for us, Al met pretty much most of, almost all the criteria that we had, okay. That we had when we go, the thesis before we go fund someone. We don't get so many deals like that. Usually we get you know, they made 50% of the criteria, we might still put money because you can't get the 100%. So one thing, Al as a founder, he's experienced, he has done it multiple times before, he sold companies. Tech guy, which is very key for us. A tech project is very key. Okay, second thing, he's built the whole thing. It's not like he's raising the money to go and build it. He built it, now he's raising money to go for go to market strategies, which makes sense. He's shown it, and we tested it out. So like, we were completely blown away. He has a team behind 'im. He's built a team on every side, on the marketing side, on PR, events. And the idea, this is a general blockchain, but he's addressing a very specific issue. It is a real problem. Loyalty points, or rewards points, or gift points. Or whatever you call them. It is segmented, it's fragmented, and this is a chance. And there might be many people who are trying to solve this problem, but I think Al has the greatest possibility, or probability, of becoming the winner. >> You and I have talked on theCUBE before, both of you guys are CUBE alumni, I know you both, so I'll ask you, 'cause I'll just remind everyone, we've talked about token economics. One of the things that's coming up here at the Consensus 2018 event in New York, onstage certainly, and some fireworks in one of the sessions, is like if you're not decentralized, why the hell are you doing a decentralized model? So one of the criterias is, the fit for the business model, has to fit the notion of a decentralized world, with the ability of tokens becoming an integral part. What about this deal makes that happen? Obviously, fragmentation, is that still decentralized? So, how are you sorting through the nuances of saying, okay, is it decentralized the market for him, and this deal? Or does it fit? >> See no, decentralize is one thing okay, in here, more than decentralized, I would say there was the platform, so that all the companies can come in, use this common platform, release it, and as a user you're getting a chance to atomically swap it if you don't like something. Most of the reward points or loyalty points go waste. Maybe the companies want it to go waste, I don't know if that is. >> It's a natural burn at equilibrium going on anyway right? Perfect fit! >> So that is the only, that was the only doubt that we had. Would companies want this, because do they want their customers' loyalty points going waste rather than swapping it for something else? That was the only question that we had. Well, that's a question that will get answered in the market. But otherwise we hadn't seen something like this before. >> What's your take of the show so far? We saw each other in the hallway as we were getting set up for theCUBE, for two days of coverage, in New York, for Blockchain Week, New York, what's your take? Obviously pretty packed. >> Oh my god, it's so packed, and it's great, the show is going on. It is bringing a lot of money in, it's bringing all the investors in a new money, old money, traditional money, nerd money as you said. >> It smells like money! >> Everybody's coming in. See the beauty about those things coming in is, you're going to get a lot of people from other fields that are going to come into this field to solve problems. 'Cause earlier, if there is no money coming in, you're going to have very smart people, or very intelligent people stick with physics or whichever was their field. Now, they're going to look into the space because they're getting paid. See that brings more people who are intelligent, and who can solve problems. That is very key for me. >> Al, I want to ask you as an entrepreneur, one things you usually have to struggle with, as any entrepreneur, is navigating the 3-D chess you got to play, whether it's competitive strategy, market movement, certainly the market's moving and shifting very quickly, but you've got growth, big tailwind for you. What's your takeaway? Because now you have new things coming on. Every every day it seems like a new shoe is dropping. SEC's firing a warning on utility tokens, security tokens are still coming, are now coming online, but that looks very promising, and then ecosystems become super important. You guys just announced news this morning around the ecosystem. >> Yeah, tomorrow we have some. We had some news today, but we have more tomorrow. >> John: Well talk about the news. >> Yeah, so we have a multi-tiered go to market strategy. Obviously in the loyalty space, again I want to emphasize, it's just one use case, but it's a massive one. You have brands, the enterprise. And many of those those enterprises or brands may operate their loyalty program internally, in terms of like back offices systems, in some cases they're outsourcing the app to a SAS provider, some application provider, that's kind of hidden in the background. But let's just say like Hilton. I use Hilton, it's the location for the event, but Hilton, you have this user experience using this app, but maybe that technology, the SAS application that's powering that, is actually not Hilton technology. And so let's just say, there's 30 million people in the Hilton program and there may be 30 million of them on the Marriott, coexisting on some SAS application. And so that's another important category for us. SAS providers and so forth, supporting that industry. And then last but not least, today, whether enterprise or SAS company, many cases not touching their own hardware, right? They're using the cloud. >> So they're outsourcing the backend. >> Yeah, and so you have managed cloud providers. >> So what does it mean for the market? I don't understand, I'm not following you. >> Well, I guess what I'm saying is that there needs to be a common standard, across enterprise application provider, in global cloud community, cloud is the new hardware. >> True. So horizontally scaling loyalties as we were (mumbles). >> Exactly, so we have, we're basically securing partnerships on all three levels, to make sure that, if you want to use new technology, you want to ensure that it's widely supported, across a variety of partners you may want to work with if you're an enterprise. Whether, a software company, cloud company, and so forth. You want to be able to ensure that it can back up the truck. So we've basically signed partnerships at all of these tiers. You're going to see news in the morning. It's late here on a Monday evening. So tomorrow 9:00 a.m, major cloud company, one of the major cloud companies, and there's more to follow, making an announcement that they've joined our ecosystem partner program, and supporting this open source technology in a number of different ways. Which we're really excited about. >> You see ecosystem as a strategic move for you. >> Absolutely, this is, for us, this is, it's all about helping the consumer, but it's not about one consumer at a time for us. It's very much an enterprise play. It's one enterprise at a time. And with each enterprise we basically add to the ecosystem millions if not tens of millions of consumers instantly. >> Nithin I want to ask you a question, because what he just brought up is interesting to me as well. As a new thing, it's not new, but it's new to the crypto world, new to the analog world, that's not in the tech field. Tech business, we all know about global system integrators, we know about ecosystems, we know the value of developer programs, and community, all those things, check, check, check. But now those things are coming to new markets. People have never seen an ecosystem play before. So it's kind of, not new, it's new for some people, it's a competitive advantage opportunity. >> True, it is. See the whole thing is so new, that you can't even define it at this point. It's very hard to define. It's like, see, as an example I would say, none of us thought that when the iPhone came, there would be a 60 billion dollar taxi sharing economy that comes out of it, right? Same thing. Blockchain comes, we just don't know. And it's very hard to predict. >> New brands are going to emerge, I mean if you look at every major inflection point, I point to a couple that I think are relevant, TCP/IP was created, internetworking. >> Yep. >> That essentially went after proprietary networks, like IBM, Digital, Stacks, but it didn't replace, it wasn't a new functionality, it was interoperability. >> Yes. >> The web, HTTP, created a whole new functionality. >> Yep. >> Out of that emerged new brands. >> Yeah. >> So I think this wave's coming is a, new brands are going to emerge. >> Here, what's the brand, I don't know what's going to emerge. There it was interoperability. >> John: Well, new players. >> It's here, it's more, the collaboration. The collaboration is so huge, it's the scale is so huge, in the sense you can collaborate across the world. You're cutting those borders, there are no borders that can hold you. Even though interoperability happened in internet, There were the Googles, and the Facebook, that still had those borders. >> Well, don't put it, Cisco came out of that, 3Com, and those generations, but the hyper-scalers came out of the web. >> Yep. >> So I'm saying, well I'm saying, I want to get your reaction to, is I think that is such a small scale relative to blockchain and crypto because it's global, it's every industry, it's not just tech it's just like everything. So there's got to be new brands. Startups going to come out of the woodwork, that's my point. >> It's not yet time for the brands to come in. See that's the whole thing. So let's put it this way, the internet was there from 1978, if you really look at it, ARPANET or DARPA, those things were there. Email was there, but it was by 1997, or by the time we all came to know Google it was 2001. There is that gap between the brand forming, because it has to permeate first, more people have to use it, like what is the user-- >> Everything was was a bubble, but everything happened. I got food delivered to my house today, right? It happened, people were saying that's a crazy idea. >> It's now it's going on, right. So it's the timing and they know the time for it to permeate so here, how many people are using Bitcoin, and to do what? Most of them are just speculating right? There's very few real use case of remittance or speculative trading, that's what's happening. See that's what I said. The other use cases, it has to permeate. And that comes with more user adoption. And the user adoption initially is going to come from the speculation. >> I think it's a good sign, honestly I think it's a tell sign, because I remember when the web was new, I was in coming out right and growing in the industry. People were poo poo, oh that's just for kids. The big company's said, we wouldn't, who the hell is going to use the World Wide Web? Enter the search engines. >> I remember that like it was yesterday. I forget that I'm not a kid anymore, and I had the opportunity to be an entrepreneur during that era. One of the things I want to add is that, we had, I think what Nithin is really pointing out, it started with the infrastructure, you had network engineers and ISPs, you know, and email. But what was the enterprise application here? What was that consumer application, and that followed right? So it started infrastructure, then it evolved. Once we saw these applications, enterprises started to go crazy. Whether it was the Ubers of the world surfacing, or enterprises reinventing themselves, that's kind of the next wave. >> Well, this is why I think you're a good opportunity. 'Cause I remember licking stamps and sending out envelopes to get people to come to a seminar, held at a hotel. That's how you did it in the old world. The web replaced that with direct response. >> But there's some, there's something else-- >> The mainframe ran faster than the web. You're replacing an old loyalty, that's like licking the stamps. It's not about comparing what you're doing to something else. >> There's also something that helps, that we're not acknowledging, that really helped take internet from 1.0 to 2.0, it's Linux. You know I remember websites were insanely expensive. It was Windows servers, it was Sun Solaris, all of this crazy, expensive, server systems, that you needed to have, so the barrier of entry was extremely high. Then Linux came along, and you still needed to have your own data center space, and so still high, but the licensing fees kind of went away. >> And now with containers and Kubernetes-- >> Exactly. >> I made a bet I was going to get Kubernetes in a crypto show. >> Anybody from a bedroom could start a company, right? You could do it with your pajamas still on. >> John: Well orchestration's easier. >> Absolutely. So this has started, this really, revolution. Now you have blockchain and you start to introduce enterprise-grade blockchain technologies, it's the next wave, you know, it's not VoIP, it's value over IP. >> Okay, I'm going to ask both you guys a final question, to end this segment here at the block event. I know you guys want to get back, and I'm taking you anyway from the schmoozing and networking and the fun out there, deejay. Predictions, next year this time, what are we going to be? What's the we're going to look like? What's going to evolve? I mean we had a conversation with Richard, who partnered with you guys at Arcadia Crypto Partners, saying the trading things interesting, the liquidity has changed. What's your take? I want you guys both to take a minute to make a prediction. Next year, what's different, who's out, who's in, what's happening, is it growing? >> So I, you know, I would say this, surprisingly, CTOs, I love CTOs, but many CTOs, I would say that well above 50% of CTOs, still can't spell blockchain. Really, and what I mean by that, really understand the transformational power what this is, in terms of how this is really web 3.0. This is going to change so many industries, create so much value for consumers, help businesses and so forth, and we're going to cross that 50% mark. >> Next year. >> With CTOs-- >> 50% of what? Be clear on-- >> Basically, we're going, in terms of the net, that blockchain's going to capture, and really enterprises and not just enterprises, service providers and so forth-- >> 50% of the mind share or 50% of the projects? >> Yeah no, I'm talking it's, people aren't going to be saying, oh, blockchain, isn't that Bitcoin? They're going to really understand, and they're going to understand that impact. And over the course of the next 12 months, we're going to see that. And it starts, obviously in many cases, with the CIO, CTO of many companies. There are definitely a lot of CIOs and CTOs on the forefront of innovation that get it, but what I'm saying is that more than 50% don't. >> So you're saying-- They're very busy in doing what they're doing today, and it hasn't hit them yet. >> To recap, you're saying by next year, 50% of CTOs or CTO equivalents, will have a clear understanding of what blockchain is-- >> Absolutely. >> And what it can do. >> Absolutely. >> Nithin, your prediction, next year, this time, what's different, what's new, what's the prediction? >> So, one of the key things that I think is going to happen is there's going to be a lot more training, and knowledge that's going to spread out, so that a lot more people understand, what blockchain is and what bitcoin is. Even now, as Al said, he was telling about CTOs, if the CTOs are, that's the state, that they can't spell blockchain, imagine where the real common man is. You've got people like Jamie Dimon coming on TV and saying he doesn't like Bitcoin, but he likes blockchain. I'm like, what the heck is he saying? That he likes a database? >> He was selling it short 100% (chuckles) >> Yeah, he likes a database. And then you have Warren Buffett coming over there-- >> Rat poison. >> And then this is rat poison. And like my question is, does any of his funds buy gold? Do they buy gold? He was telling that this is only worth as much as the next buy buying at a higher price. >> What's Warren Buffett's best tech investment? >> I don't know, I think he bought Apple, he started buying Apple now, right? When it's reached a thousand bucks? Or it reached a trillion dollars or close to that, or 750 billion? >> The Apple buy was 2006. If you were there, then you were good. >> Yeah, but-- >> So, your prediction? >> Market wise I don't know, what's going to happen? I'm expecting this, the crypto, the utility token, or the crypto market, to be at least a six trillion dollar business. But it'll happen next year? Definitely not. But I've been proven wrong, like I was expecting it to happen by 2025, but then it went to 750 billion by December. Well, it's not too far. >> You did get the prediction right, in the Bahamas at POLYCON18, about the drop around the tax consequences of the-- >> Right. >> People slinging trades around, not knowing the tax consequences. >> Right, right. We don't know because, who knows? Because what is going on over there, is IRS is still saying it's a property. That's what the last (slurs) is. SEC is saying it is all equity, and the CFTC was saying it's commodity. So what tax do I pay? >> Okay, lightning round question, 'cause I want to, one more popped in my head. The global landscape, from an investor standpoint, the US, we know what's going on in the US, accredited, SEC is throwing, firing across, bullets across the bow of the boats, kind of holding people in line. What percentage of US big investors will be overseas by next year? >> Percentage of-- >> Having, meaning having deals being done, proxy deals being down outside the US, what percentage? >> It's still going to be low though. That is going to be low, because that, I don't think the US investor, means the large scale of those investors-- >> You don't think the big funds will co-locate outside the US? >> There will be some, but not enough. >> Put a number, a percentage. >> Percentage-wise I think it's still going to be less than 10%. >> Al, your prediction? >> In terms of investment? >> Investment, investors saying hey, I got money here, I want to put it out there. >> Outside of the United States? >> Share money, not move their whole fund, but do deals from a vehicle. >> Do deals outside. I think I agree with Nithin. >> Throwing darts at the board here. >> No, I'm going to clarify. There's definitely massive investment happening overseas. In some respects probably bigger than the United States. So that's not going away. If anything that's going to grow. But your question is, in terms of US entities, making abroad investments, overseas investments, versus just domestic? I think that trend doesn't necessarily change. You have the venture community, there are certain bigger venture funds that can have global operations 'cause at the end of the day, they need to have global operations, to be able to do that, and most venture funds aren't that massive, they don't have that infrastructure. So they're going to focus on their own backyard. So I don't necessarily think blockchain changes the venture mindset. It's just easier for them logistically to do due diligence on their own backyard and invest in those. >> Guys, always a pleasure. Great to see you. You guys are like friends with entourage here, great to get the update here at Blockchain Week. We get to Silicon Valley week, we'll connect up again. I'm John Furrier, here in New York, theCUBE's continuing coverage of crypto, decentralized applications, and blockchain of course, we're all over it. You'll see us all over, all of the web, all the shows. Thanks for watching. (techno music)

>> Voiceover: From New York, it's theCUBE, covering Blockchain Week. Now, here's John Furrier. >> Hello and welcome to exclusive CUBE coverage here in New York City for Blockchain Week, NY Blockchain Week New York City. CUBE's coverage continues with cryptocurrency, decentralized internet, the applications of blockchain. Our next guest is Richard Rofe, who's the co-found partner of Arcadia Crypto Ventures. Welcome to this CUBE conversation. >> Thanks, good to be here. >> So when you're in that neck of the woods, New York City, obviously Wall Street, you know, they traded across the wall in the old days, and then it became now the Wall Street, it's changing. We're seeing crypto and token economics really driving the entrepreneurial energy, both on start-ups, as well as in the capital market. And you guys are on the front end of that, with some awesome investments advisory. And what's the craze all about? I mean, you have more practical view, your firm, conservative and also aggressive. What's your take? >> Well, first off, I'm a little older than most of the guys in the space, so I have a different perspective. I did come from Wall Street prior to this, I ran a hedge fund for 12 years, and before that I was basically an entrepreneur my whole life, software and other things. So, I looked at this a little differently, than probably some of the younger guys do. I've kind of seen this before? I think I saw it with the internet. And I think it's a world-changing shift, and we're an early part of it. We've been in for a while, actually in this space forever. Cause, you know, this space isn't that old. So, six years out of 10, we've been in it from the beginning, basically. >> You know, us old guys look at the waves, these waves of innovation, we're like hanging ten on the old big surfboards, and the young kids are ninjaing up on the small board. What is the younger generation looking at? Cause they're certainly, I wish I was 20-something, this is the best wave I've seen in tech revolution coming, all the ingredients are there, the capital markets are changing radically, the technology product market is changing radically, the global landscape's changing radically, the regulatory landscape, and everything else, is a perfect storm for innovation. >> Rapid change, I got involved early around 2012, just to give you a, you know, since we're at a conference this week, and see how crowded and incredibly busy it is, takes up an entire giant hotel, and bursting into the street, when I, in 2012 when I went to the very first conference, that I attended anyway, you could fill a small room with every single person at the conference. So the growth has been insane. It is driven by younger people, but the beauty of this is it's driven by people all over the world. This is not just an American thing. This is a worldwide thing. This is a shift, a technology shift that I don't think we've seen since basically the advent of the internet itself. >> You know, there's an old expression, both sides of the table, you've been an entrepreneur, you've been an investor. A hedge fund is almost the third side of the table, it's like 3D chess almost, you are now playing in the crypto world. Being an entrepreneur, you've been there, done that, hedge fund you had to run money and make great investments. Now, with this new crypto phase, how are you looking at it? Because you have the experience, you can see the growth in the younger generation, new disruptive people literally just flying blind, just going crazy with some good stuff. How are you managing that? How do you look at the marketplace, how do you make your bets? >> Good question. It's difficult. First of all, the barrier to entry is low. At this time, anyone who understands technology is really getting involved, and for good reason, but therefore you have, hundreds and hundreds of deals that come your way on a weekly basis. So you have to really pick and choose through the ones that are interesting. And you apply the same techniques that you applied as an entrepreneur and an investor prior to that, you look at the underlying business, the area that the blockchain will disrupt, change, shift, how it will do it, how long it will last, and how many people will be interested in it. And if you find the ones that are attractive and interesting, then you find the team that's attractive and interesting. That's the big point, is that you really want to have a very good team, you care so much about their background, their technology background, as well as their business background. If you can put those things together, you have a winning investment, and then you try to do it. >> You and I were talking before you came on camera... crowd sales and Kickstarter, Gofundme, as great ways to get capital. But now there's really no liquidity there. Talk about the dynamics because I think, you know, traditional investors in this market say "hmm", and there's so much more coming that'll create more stability obviously. We see some of that, I'll get to that in a second. But I want to get your take on, from an investor standpoint, the notion of liquidity, and also an entrepenuer's standpoint, access to capital. Talk about the dynamics between access to capital and liquidity for the investors and for the entrepreneurs. >> Also great points. I mean, right now, we have something that is giving both things, right? Access to capital, worldwide access to capital, from the smallest investor to the biggest investor, everybody has an opportunity, where before it was really limited, and then you have liquidity in that if you have a token or a coin, that's tradable, whether it's on an exchange, or private trade, you can actually liquidify your investment. Where if you were in a private company in the past, and I've done many of those, you're locked in. You're kind of at the mercy of the organizers of the company, whoever they are, the people that run the business. And you're kind of stuck there, good or bad. In this case, you have the ability to trade in and out, just as you would with a public stock. >> So you can get some liquidity in the front end, while private still, so it's kind of like a little liquidity market. I want you to address a question that's come up, an observation that we've made on theCUBE. We were at the Bahamas at Polycon 18, Puerto Rico. Not in the US, is New York or New York City the capital, you know, of money, that's where money never sleeps, so to speak, Gordon Gekko would say, in the old Wall Street quote. But this is a global phenomenon. We're outside of the United States, there's a lot of action. Let's talk about the role of global money. >> Well, that's part of the excitement of the whole thing. It's not just the United States. It's all over the world, so it's really democratized investing, it's democratized finance, it's changing the landscape completely. And I think that it's unstoppable. I do think that regulation, and I know we talked about that earlier too, is a good thing. I think that regulation is necessary, because you can't just have a rogue environment completely, but on the other hand too much regulation kills things. So there has to be a happy medium and hopefully they'll find that. >> I love the invisible hand strategy, and certainly let capital take, but you want to have some signaling, SSC's been doing that. I just don't think it's stoppable in my opinion. But I want to go shift to where entrepreneurs are looking at the capital markets. Today the choices are bootstrap, friends and family, small sized business, cash flow business if you will, or go venture capital or private equity, if you have the kind of multiples that would warrant that, assuming the sector is in vogue at the moment. Which, you know, always a coin flip. Here, with token economics, there's a huge access to capital. Bubble we're seeing certainly is reflected in that. What are you looking for, when you see that kind of behavior? How do you manage the risk, how are entrepreneurs navigating that world? >> First of all, managing the risk, it's tough obviously. Especially as I mentioned earlier, there's so many deals coming at you at all times, so you have to choose wisely, that's the first way to manage risk. Always was the way to manage risk. People used to ask me in the hedge fund business, how do you manage your risk? Well, I only try to invest in the things that I think have the best upside, and the smallest downside, it was pretty simple. And it's the same here. It comes down to at the end of the day, what businesses are you choosing? The other thing is that, you know, first of all there's inherent risk. You can never get around that fact. But if you really believe in the long-term future, and you're willing to go through some ups and downs, and there are going to be, and there have been, as we know, over the past 10 years, and there will be more in the future. You have to be willing to ride those waves. And if you can do that, then I think your risk will just mitigate over time, as long as you're a smart, wise investor, and of course spreading it around. You don't want to be in, you know, all your eggs in one basket, then you'll take a giant risk. >> Yeah, it's one of those things where you don't want to zig when you should have zagged, with all this going on. It's certainly a turbulent landscape, I've heard phrases like, it's like wet cement, you don't know when it's going to form, all these kinds of phrases. So the question I want to ask you is, what do you look for? What are you looking at, what signals are you trying to synthesize, what's the tea leaves that you're reading, what're you looking at? What's concerning you, what are some tell signs that are going to help you navigate the investment side and advisory side? >> With regard to the entire space, we're looking very much at regulation, we want to know what the regulators want. I'm not sure they know what they want. We speak to them, we keep them pressed on the situation from our end, and we hear back from them on with their thinking. We'd like to see some regulation over time, but it's complicated because they don't even know what they're looking at yet. That's a big part of it. They're not sure how to regulate something that they don't understand. And there are very few people in this space, and this is one of the biggest risks. There are very few people that even do understand it, and are in this maze. >> I was telling an entrepreneur just here today, and then last week, it's in the Bay Area in California, they're more progressive than their suppliers, their law firm, and some of their accounting help. They're more progressive on the front end, they're actually advising the law firm on deals. >> And that has happened, that's happened with us, in fact we've recently put a structure together, where we taught the law firm how to do it, the law firm was impressed with it. They had to go study it, they spent a few weeks, and they came back and said "Hey, this is a great idea, we're going to do this with everybody else going forward." And that basically came from us backwards. >> Did they bill you for those hours, or did you charge them? >> Great question, I really hope not. I'm going to ask my partner if we got billed for anything. >> Rich, I want to ask about blockchain, we got to see Consensus 2018, it's happening here in New York, big event, part of CoinDesk too, they're doing a great job, content program's been solid. It's been super crowded, they need a bigger venue obviously, the demand was high and sold out. And I know there's a lot of side events going on, a lot of activity. What is your take away, what do you look this as saying? Is it like, wow, what's your take on the impact of the momentum? >> Well, first of all, as I mentioned before, I saw this thing with my own eyes, right, from a little tiny room in Las Vegas, was the entire conference, to what we saw today. With people in the streets who can't even get in, thousands and thousands of people in one hotel, which is probably not even cut out for that many. I think it's incredible, the momentum says a lot, by the way, talking about mitigating risk, there's not just so many people, there's so many smart people, that are figuring this out, one by one, and getting involved early. And that really gives me a lot of confidence, in terms of the long-term strategy. If this thing grew by, you know, two or three times, four or five times what I saw in 2012, I would not be nearly as excited. What I'm seeing here, this mass load of people, who are fighting to get into an event, right, into a venue, and the intelligence, and the kind of people they are, and how educated they are, it really gives me hope. And it reminds me, of early days in the internet, where we saw the super smartest people, kind of broke away from the crowd, did their own thing. We saw guys leaving traditional firms, going and starting companies, the Amazons, the Googles, the Facebooks, and things of that nature, which became the largest companies in the world. >> And there were problems there too. You had back-dating stock options, you had all these deals where revenue is revenue, and then accounting issues, but again all that is just a symptom of a growth market. Final question for you, when you look at what you guys are doing, and how you're investing, how you're getting involved in companies, you're also an advisor to Bloq which is having an event here in New York City. How are you navigating the hiring, the partnership, the community aspect, as in the financial community, like the entrepreneurial community, there's a tight-knit bond. How is it evolving, how are you guys shaping that, what are some of the things you can share around the financial community? >> Well, we do advisory work, so we work with a lot of different clients that want to get into the space. We work with some very traditional clients, that are not really technologists, and those are the most interesting ones. They're difficult, because they don't understand a lot of it, and I don't blame them, I come from that world too. So, we have to really hold their hand, and we deal with a lot of very smart tech people who come from a whole other, but don't know the business side so well, so we kind of work with both. In terms of our own hiring, and who we bring on to our company, we really look for a very unique person, which is, usually in this case a younger, because of the space itself, we look for everybody, but we don't find that many people my age and older, that even want to spend time, let alone understand it. >> Some smart kid "I don't want to work at Goldman Sachs, they're old." >> Listen, and again, we saw this in the internet, you could not get a smart kid out of college to get a regular job back in the Nineties. They were all going to Web startups. Kind of same thing here. So we have a great pool to choose from, we try to pick people that are on the cutting-edge, but that also want to work hard. Because, again, it's a start-up industry, right? So, think about the hours, you know, you're really going to put in a lot more than you would at a nine-to-five job. Your weekend, nights, you know, the phone, you're connected 24/7. But the hiring's been, uh, we have a staff of about six people, and I think they're great, but we do hand-pick them and it takes a while. >> Take a minute to explain what you guys do, how many investments you've made, you've been there early, the year 2012 you mentioned, early on. >> I started in 2012 in terms of in just the space itself, due to my friend Matt Roszac at Bloq, who was really early, a year ahead of me there, and he got me involved, but I didn't really start making serious investments. My first investment was in 2014, we invested in a settlement and clearing house company, that's now one of the fastest growing banks in the country, and then we got into some of the coins, and some of the platforms, that's where we invest the most, and a few deals here and there. And then we started to do advisory work, because let's face it, we knew what we were doing, we were ahead of the curve, we certainly understood it, and so many people want to get into something that they don't know, they're going to need someone to hold their hand all the way through. So, our advisory business is our main stable business, and then we invest into certain deals that we think are interesting, a lot of them are platforms. >> Yeah, and token economics is driving all that. Richard, thanks for coming on, appreciate taking the time to come on CUBE, I'm John Furrier, we're here at New York City for Blockchain Week New York, and this is theCUBE exclusively continuing coverage of the cryptocurrency craze, token economics, obviously blockchains enabling technology underneath it, and the whole new Internet infrastructure is transforming with cloud, everything behind it's really exciting. Thanks for watching.

>> Announcer: From New York, it's theCUBE! Covering Blockchain Week. Now, here's John Furrier. Hello everyone this is theCUBE's exclusive coverage here in New York at Blockchain Week New York, #BlockchainNY this is theCUBE, I'm John Furrier your host. Our next guest is Madhu Kutty, who's a partner at Arcadia Crypto Ventures, thanks for joining me here in New York City. We're at the Block Party, a private event here, thanks for joining us during Blockchain Week. >> Yep. >> So you guys do a lot of deals, we had Richard on, who's the managing partner of the firm, early in the space, super early, so you're in the front wave, get all the best deals, now it's competitive, you got to read the white papers, you got to get down and dirty. Still got the pretenders, figure out what's the bad deals, the good deals, and then when you get a good deal make sure it's tailor fit, both the tech matches the economics. (laughing) which I find to be interesting, because, you can have a brilliant entrepreneur come in but their token model's off. Do you see this every day? >> Yeah, we see this a lot. Especially the last year things were much more easier, because most of the people who are coming were generally at least trying to do something good, but this year we see a lot of people who just want to make use of the bail that's happening, just get on the hype and get some quick buck, even on traditional firms that've failed are coming and trying to capture the blockchain hype. >> Yeah, so throw the hail Mary basically, let's do an ICO, and they're going, we're going under throw the hail Mary! >> Yes, that's what we see a lot happening, and then there was a lot of tech projects back in the past so it was a little more easy to evaluate, so, but this year you're seeing more real business applications coming onboard. >> I was talking with Richard about some of the growth things around crypto, and I want to get your take on it because, the internet infrastructure is changing. We see the web 1.0, I mean we hear in these, all the events I go to, similar kind of conversation, TCBIP created inter-networking and inter-operability, HTTP created a whole new way to do things: web 1.0. Now we're hearing token economics and blockchain as a new way, but yet, inter-operating with the old systems, so you have a whole seat change, and there's a real tech-enablement. What's your view on this, because some people get it wrong, they understand what the business logic means, but they want to know what the tech-enablement is. What's the tech that's driving all this new infrastructure? >> So the internet, you could think of it as a way to share information with a worldwide audience, so blockchain, for the first time ever, enables on blockchain, or the inter-crypto infrastructure, first time enables humans to transfer value over the wire. So you could represent one as one over the wire, rather than creating like a duplication of one. So you could have your own Bitcoin stored on the network, and you can access it yourself, and you can send that value across. This was never possible in the history of the human race, so that's what a blockchain enables, it's the solution to basically this general problem, and we always thought that it was not possible but for the first time ever we have a means to achieve that. >> I've also been saying at some of these cube events, that every company needs a chief economic officer, you used to have a CGO, now you need a chief economic officer. So I got to ask you, when you see a technology, you got to kind of make sure it marries the right model. So in the token world, putting security tokens aside, which I like by the way. They're very easy to deal with, utility tokens are different you have two types of utility tokens a work-like token, and a burn-mint equilibrium approach. What's your take on the two strategies there, when should some appoint a burn-mint--or a BME strategy versus say a work token which is much more of a utility classic. >> So a burn token is what has been the work, at least in the past, for building actual platforms, so that solution itself is not fully solved. So once we solve that completely, that's when we see much more utility tokens coming on board, but as this point we see more of the remittance problem that's being solved so that, we have a lot of exchanges, and transferring of currency that's being worked on. So you can think of it like the email in the internet era, though we had all these different .coms, only email worked well. So right now the transfer of value, the remittance on the exchange is the only thing that's working, but as we go forward we'll see much more business models coming out. >> So it's really going to evolve. >> Yep. I think this could be the year that's going to be-- Ethereum was moment when, there was the Ethereum moment when you really could start the next generation of the cryptocurrency movement, so I think this year we could see more business. >> And I've heard some of the conversations here at the consensus event around, a lot of people trying to force blockchain and decentralize, specifically with a centralized business model, so a lot of people are poopooing that. Which is, we just call that blockchain washing, white washing, trying to save themselves. So I got to ask you, I mean first of all, I remember having conversations back when the web started, oh my God, AOL and this 14.4 dial up is so slow, so much slower than a mini computer, technically right, mini computer was much faster than dial up modems to web, but web wasn't replacing the mini computers, replacing direct mail, direct response, analog things. So the question I want to ask you is: what is the analog displacement, what apples-to-apples comparison should we be making when people throw out these idiotic comments like, oh my God blockchain's so slow, because it is kind of slow, the web was slow too, but it replaced something old. Is it right, is blockchain replacing something old, and what is the right comparison? >> So the right comparison is that it is, it has solved, theoretically, the problems, the theoretical solution for these problems we are going to solve the decentralization and decentralizing business, theoretically we have solved it, and we have proved it practically, it's possible, but it is not really there for that-- the mass option for real business to onboard, it has not reached that scale yet. As we all know, if Netflix was in business in 1999, it could never succeed. But then a lot of infrastructure was built up on top of it, and Netflix worked, so the same thing is going to happen here. >> So you're not worried about the complains when people say it's slow? >> No, because there's more in IC, each time I go to these conferences, as you have seen, more and more smart people are jumping in, more and more money is flowing in-- >> The web grew too, more people were using the web, so growth was the key. >> Yeah, growth is the key, and more smart people coming, and they're going to figure it out. >> When you look under the hood of a company they come in and say hey I want to get funding, or I have this great business model, or I take an existing business and tokenize it. What are the things you look for in a good ICO candidate, or just someone who's tryna do token economics, with a technology trying to transition, not pivot, transform into token economics? >> So a lot of it, something people call it is conviction-based investing, so that's a lot, they have a lot in this cryptocurrency space. So we look at the technology, underlying technology, how we can solve some of the issues. We look at the broader aspect of the space, how big the space is so it can solve that, and we also look at the team, and if these three things are in good combination we believe in it can be a rival business. And also the partners, or the founders, have to be a little less greedy, like look for smaller raises that's good enough for the next two years, roughly. >> Well I think entrepreneurs can get liquid faster off token economics, I think it's actually better for the entrepreneur, in my opinion. I want to take change gears a second talk about you personally how did you get here, did you just wake up one day and say I'm going to work for Arcadia Crypto Ventures, were you scratching an itch, did you come from finance, what's your background? >> My background has been in technology and finance, worked with a bunch of Wall Street banks, then private equity firms, then I was running a technology firm when I met Richard, who's very early in the space. So we talked about it and he had a lot of interesting questions about the space so myself and one of my partners we went back and researched on it. So we came back with these answers, he had a little more insight, back in the day, more access to the detail during that time, so we worked with him, and loosely, we worked as some kind of analyst for him and we started working together and then it formalized in a bigger way, now we are working. >> When did you have that moment saying damn this is going to be good? >> I think, so it was once we totally understood the Santoshi Paper, at that point we knew that this is going to change the world. But even I didn't expect that this would be this fast. So what we are seeing today, at that time I thought maybe we'll see that in 2020, 2021, but the space exploded. Ethereum hitting a thousand, which it hit sometime this year I was thinking might happen sometime 2021 or 2022, by then. >> What sector surprised you the most, was it the trading side, the entrepreneur side, what area of the market has surprised you the most? >> What's surprising is the world wide ERD option, and how especially the new generation has kind of lost a bit of interest, not even like they are disillusioned with this other investment model, they are jumping in a big way. And I think this is even ruggedly, everyone has to look for that, these people have come in, so let's get it right for these folks so that they have a belief in the system and they can go forward. >> Madhu I want to get your thoughts on something I think is important for folks to understand, and that is there's a lot of liquidity, Richard mentioned that liquidity is an important part. >> Absolutely. >> So there's a lot of new dynamics and art and science that goes into the trading side of it, much accelerated than a classic IPO or say a hedge-fund kind of deal, where there's always kind of some stuff going on, but here you can get much earlier in on the process. Talk about, for the folks who like now know what a wallet is and might have an account on Coinbase, to the extent that that's their knowledge base. You're so much deeper on some of the trading side, what are the dynamics, how would you break down the trading situation on crypto, give us the crypto trading 101. >> So the idea is that, first of all, there are some huge exchanges, so every cryptocurrency out there wants to be on these exchanges, so these exchanges have much more trading volume, have much more liquidity, that's where you want to be. If you are doing some investment and you want to protect it, you want to be in these highly liquidized ones. And so I would stick to top 10-20 coins for the majority of the portfolio if you want to protect your investment, so that has a lot more liquidity. And then, around I would say 10-20% you would do in sectors that you are interested in, where you really have some kind of idea, that's what I call a conviction-based investment. >> So if I want to convert my crypto to Fiat currency, you're saying stay with the top trading forms, or stay with the sector, what's the advice? >> If you're a regular investor, who's not following the market 24/7 I would say, at least, put like 80% on the top 20 coins where there is much more liquidity and which, you know won't go bust tomorrow. Then you would focus maybe 10-20% of your-- this is, I'm just talking with a crypto portfolio, on something you are going to have some kind of conviction, if you, let's say you are in an automobile space, that's what you understand a lot so any crypto on that, which you think is interesting, you could put your money there. And I'm a tech person, so I would put more money on technology platforms. >> What's your favorite tech coins right now, what're the investments you're putting money into? >> Oh, we've always been long on Bitcoin, Ethereum, so there are a lot of new, exciting stuff coming, like EOS, like we are big on Tezos, it's a very community-driven project, we are very excited about that, what Bloq is bringing, Metronome, I think that's going to be huge. These are very unique in their own ways, you're also offering something as a challenger to Ethereum, Tezos, also in some form, where they're very community-focused. And Metronome, for the first time, offers the ability to do cross-platform transactions. >> Madhu, this space is attracting a lot of young kids, I say kids, coming out of business school, or from a firm like Goldman Sachs, one of these classic firms, kind of bored. They want to do something new. What's your advice to the next generation coming in, jump on the wave, fall down, learn it, get off my wave, get off my beach, I mean what's your advice for the young people? >> If I was in that spot right now, I would just jump in and go with the flow, and you'll figure out what you need to do. At least rather than stick with the traditional companies, this is something new and exciting, and at least the next two-three years, spend on-- >> Get's your hands dirty, don't lose a lot of money. Try not to lose a lot of money. (both laughing) Madhu, thanks for coming on-- >> Thank you! >> Appreciate the commentary. We're here, exclusive coverage, we're at the Block Party, here at the Blockchain Week New York, exclusive continued coverage with theCUBE, we're here in New York City to breakdown all the action inside the ropes of the industry, I'm John Furrier, thanks for watching. (bubbly music)

>> Narrator: Live from San Juan, Puerto Rico. It's the CUBE, covering Blockchain Unbound. Brought to you by Blockchain Industries. (upbeat Spanish-style music) >> Hey, welcome back everyone. We're here in Puerto Rico for exclusive CUBE coverage, I'm John Furry, you're host. Here, with Blockchain Unbound, this is a global event. From everyone from Silicon Valley, New York, Miami, Russia, Eastern Europe, all over the world, and Puerto Rico coming together, talk about the future of the economy, Blockchain decentralized apps, and more. Our next guest is CUBE alumni, and part of our inaugural crypto currency coverage, from Polycon 18, back to give a command performance, Nithin Eapen Chief Investment Officer at Arcadia Crypto Ventures, good to see you. >> Good to see you too John. >> So, you had a great showing at our first crypto event, PolyCon, great to see you back in the trenches, you're out, hard-working, pounding the pavement, doing deals. What's your analysis here, I mean, you're here networking, you checked out the sessions. What's your take? >> We've met some really good founders, really good projects, so that's the key thing that we are looking for. The main idea as our tagline says, "We back Blockchain's best." We are looking for the best founders. We are looking for the teams, then for the idea. Anything that's decentralized, we are backing them. >> So, network effect has been a big part of the conference I've been having. We talked about security tokens, utility tokens. A lot of interesting things going on here, but there's a backdrop. You've got multiple events going on. You've have Blockchain Unbound, run by Blockchain Industries, great team, which put this event together in five weeks. So, shout out to those guys. >> (laughs) You have Coin Agenda, >> That's coming! going on, another event going next door, which is after this event. And then you have a lot of series of little events, meet-ups, the local community had a great crypto mixer, Puerto Rico, a lot of action. >> Too much action, and it's like at the same time, look at it, TokenFest in San Francisco, another 2,000 people over there, here people are on the waiting list, so much action. >> And that's going on this week, as well. You have anyone going to that event? >> I know, I've got a lot of friends going over there. For me, it made sense, this is closer. I thought I would meet a lot of them. Puerto Rico is better I found, you know? >> A lot of big money here, a lot of smart money. >> A lot of smart money, a lot of big money. >> John: Global? >> Global, and the greatest part of Puerto Rico is, it's bringing this concept like, they have reduced taxes for US people to zero percent for individuals, for the next, until 2036. Now that's a big difference. If you want to change your domicile to Puerto Rico, for your business it's 4% corporate taxes, and individual it's 0% now, that's... >> John: But you got to move here. >> You got to move here, okay. But you don't have to give up your US citizenship. Now, I think what's going to happen right now is they're going to be other states maybe going to compete for this, or other countries are going to compete for the capital to flow, where does capitol flow to? Capital will flow to cheaper places, or lesser taxes. >> So, I got to ask you, I was talking to you earlier this morning, here on the CUBE I said, "There's two killer apps, one of them is money." Money is the killer app. >> No doubt! >> Your reaction to that? >> It is, okay all of our lives, let's say for your son, or my kid, or for me, what my parents, when we went to school, why did they make us go to school or learn, they tell us, "Okay you got to go to college!" Why, they want us to have a better life, they want to have a better car. How do you get them, you want money for them. But in none of those years did somebody teach you, how does money originate? What is money, is it something you should buy the Garmin? So in everything that we go for, unless we're the Buddha or Jesus himself, we do it for money. >> Well you bring up a good point. I mean I have a immigrant background from my family, my wife's family as well. >> Where did you come from? >> Well I'm actually Native American, I mean American. >> Okay But two, three generations back they, Ireland, >> Ireland, okay! French Canadian, a little bit of Armenian in me but that's okay, all kind of blended. I'm in the melting pot, I'm not 1st generation but, in Boston where my parents were from, very much an immigrant town, and they didn't have any money. So if you look at now, what's gone through the financial dot-com bubble, which had some impact, but the financial crisis is 2018, if you look at what's happened since then, the generation of millennials there in more debt. They're not realizing college, it might not be the thing. So we went to school so that we can have a better life than our parents did. Now it's like everyone's realizing that, shit we're screwed. So watching as a path, of freedom. >> It is! A new way to create wealth, capture the value, but in a new way. >> Yes, because you have a chance to be a part of an economy without, a permission of a centralized organization. So, earlier if you wanted to work somewhere, you needed an organization to work. This is making it much easier to be a part of the economy. to contribute, to help people to get help, all this is happening and you don't have to go to school. Maybe school is overrated, our colleges overrated. It is too expensive, you spend 200 thousand dollars on college. What is your ROI, when is your ROI? Maybe some disciplines have it. But this is your chance to.. >> Well, you you know that we love media and our disruptive media at the CUBE is to do things differently, but lets talk about some current events that's been happening. So this week, John Oliver created a video trashing crypto currency, it was actually funny. But it got to the Brock Pierce part, and he really had it out for Brock Pierce. He absolutely destroyed him. >> He did! And since then, he lost his place EOS. They wiped away all his DNA of evidence with the company. This is a comedian, at John Oliver, you're a freaking comedian. What gives him the right to I have that kind of influence on someone's job when he's just telling a joke. There's no actually substance of any facts of any kind at what he's doing, So that's a central authority figure that took an editorial comedic routine, and put it out there, but people think that's news. >> See, >> That's not The power of media, that the power of all the old traditional media, is that they had a bigger reach. I think it's going to change, it is going to be the YouTube's. And it's going to become a decentralized YouTube equivalent, or a decentralized media equivalents. Like, a lot of people have made memes and you know, fun videos that go viral and they'll take things down. The same, John Oliver obviously, he has us laugh. >> He's funny as hell though. He is funny as hell! >> You got to admit, >> He's pretty funny! The bit was really good, >> But end of the day, but he really went after Brock Pierce. Something was going on there, he took him down. >> See the traditional industries or traditional media they want to take down everybody that they don't consider, the birds of a same feather, this is somebody weird, like Trump, they try to take down Trump. They will try to take down anything which doesn't fit their globalist, elitist agenda. End of the day, like Brock Pierce sitting on a billion, and John over with his comedy, who has the bigger laugh? I don't know, if you ask me. >> When you have F U money like Brock Pierce does, I'm sure it rolls off his shoulders. But it does impact the ecosystem a bit. Basically EOS has erased his name in any capacity. So, obviously this impacts to public opinion. So these comedians and news rep, they have an obligation to share the data. Editorializing, I mean I do it all the time, don't get me wrong. >> (laughs) But, there's a point, consensus is part of the algorithm now in these Blockchain and Crypto communities where you have Blockchain as a store, against him. >> Okay! But consensus and transparency is a huge deal. >> Nithin: Yes! >> This is part of the formula. >> I know but see, the whole thing... When John Oliver does something, it's not about consensus. He can do it, okay, it's going to change! It's like this, when Bitcoin came in 2009, the traditionalists were coming up at the story that, "it is fake money, it's not going to go anywhere." Then it became one dollar, they were just laughing at it. Then became 10 dollars, they said it's going to go down. Then it became hundred dollars, they did the same thing. And it's only after long time they will realize, "Oh my God, it's changed." The rock has been pulled under my leg. It's like when Amazon came, all the traditional retail guys said, "Nobody's going to go and buy a book without touching it." Now we have Toys "R" Us that just went bankrupt. There's no more Toys" R" Us, you know, you have to buy your toys pretty much from Amazon at this point. >> Well everything in the model of future will be all contexual so, videos, comedian, news articles, reports, editorial, all will roll into one thing. That's going to be a great thing. >> Yes! >> And media is going to take a lot of, natural language processing, it's going to get transcript link. I think you're already doing it right, you're going to take a transcript of what I speak, you're going to attach the words, you're going to attach it to brands, you can sell that, and that is going to be the future. >> Well lets get some of that intellectual property out of your head and into the camera, and for the audience. What are you hearing in the hallways here, obviously this is a great networking event here. Lot's of agendas, phenomenal, as well as we had over sold almost by double. There's people out in the hallways, it's sold out, so there's a lot of Lobby Con going on. There's a conference within the conference going on. >> Nithin: It is! We call it Lobby Con! >> (laughs) What are you hearing in the hallways, what is some of the cool things that's new to you, that you're discovering? >> So lot of people are now telling me they are very excited about security tokens. They're telling me they're buying security tokens. I asked them, which security tokens? It's not there yet, okay. See, that's where I tend to differ. If security tokens are going to be the big thing, I'm going to be buying it because we are informed. >> John: Buy everything that moves. >> We buy it as it moves, but, security token, my question is, so you're trying to make something that is a utility, now you're going to make it security? So that is equity markets, there is a CC for that. And you're going to fit this in over there, I'm like, I don't know, what are people trying achieve? This is a free market and they're trying to bring it into regulation. >> What's a red flag for you as a, security token implies directly that you're securing something. What are they, >> You're pretty much What are people securing, equity, future cash flows, dividends, what are some of the vehicles you've seen? >> At that time they are pretty much secure, or securing future cash flows as dividends. They're going to give dividends, they're saying if you're a token holder, you're going to get dividends. My question at that time is, then why do you want a token, why can't it be in equity? Oh, you think you can come with their argument that it's more liquid, but equity's a liquid. I don't think it isn't a liquid. But it is a great way to go around and secularize a lot of things. You can have a small business, think of it, you and me we have a small business, let's say we have a partnership We have a small... >> We have a small business, We have a small business, we have a partnership. It's very hard to exit out of a small business. If we can fractionalize the ownership of a business thru tokens, and there might be people are willing to buy, put thousand dollars in, and maybe I can exit at some point. Otherwise there's no exit for me. It's very hard to exit out of a small business. Now then, what's the difference between that and equity? I don't know you know, those lines are blurred but, I'm happy for the fact that something like that will give liquidity to a lot of small business owners. America is a country of small business owners. Across the globe it supports small business owners. If it brings liquidity, okay I'm happy with that. But it's really beating the purpose that we don't want a centralized power controlling us. Because now that you have Google and Facebook that banned crypto-currency ads. Why, Women's Day, all our data, they give us a free access but they hold a lot of our personal data. I'm thinking, the guy who brings in the, a decentralized search or a decentralized social media, I'm going to invest in them. I don't care if their a success or if the success will come later. There are going to be multiple libertarian investors like me that's going to invest in them. >> What I learned was that money is a killer app, and I'll stand by that. I think marketplaces are also the killer app. You ever think, >> Perfectly true! that this conference, that kind of validates where I was thinking was, the people who nailed a business model, that's the critical, critical pacing item. If you screw the business model up, you go sideways. The technology risk isn't as bad as the business model decision risk. So I'm seeing the successful ICOs, or plays, have a lock in on the structural value proposition and to be directionally correct, with an understanding of what the hedge is on the technology. >> Yep! >> So they can manage it. So it's like programmable plumbing. They're recognizing that dynamic. The other thing that I'm learning is that the money flow from other countries is massive. If you want a money launderer from Colombia, it's coming in from Metadine Narcos. It's coming in from Japan, and China. Bitcoin and Blockchain is a money transfer opportunity so, I'm seeing a massive amount of money, flowing in >> Capital is flowing, in massive waves. >> it's flowing in. >> And it's good, and even if these projects fail, it's a good thing because, you had all this money that was stuck somewhere, that flowed in, and as I said, many of those projects are going to fail. Let them fail, because this money has flowed in, you will have a lot of people come and work on these projects, and eventually the correct solution will emerge. >> And new structural dynamics are at play. And new investors are coming in. >> New investors, so many new investors. You know the funny thing John, after we met at Polycon, I think that 99% of the people I meet here are totally new. All the guys we met at Polycon in Bahamas, totally different. I only know very few people that I met over there. So that means a whole set of investors, or common people, who just want to learn about it, totally new. That's really good! And who wins here, the average citizen entrepreneur, the average citizen player that wants to start something whether it's a banking, a service provider of some sort, a entrepreneur, or a new financial instrument or firm, all have greenfield opportunity here. >> Because, see earlier when you wanted to raise money, I was talking to a founder the other day, I asked him, how hard it was for you to raise your first raise, like 10 years ago? He was telling me that he walked the doors across multiple VCs, to kind of scrap in one and a half million dollars. And then he did his second loan after eight years. >> He'd have to crawl on his knees to get that. >> And that too, you won't get the attention, you need to know reference, now you have a chance to go to the world, and monies were, so easy money coming in is a bad thing in a way that most entrepreneurs will feel the investors will lose their money. but that's different, but it at least you have access and you can try to think that you had any in mind earlier. You had no option, they would take a big stake. Now there's no dilution, this is pretty much cloud funding on steroids. You have a chance to go to market, you get the go to market money and see if it works. And if it doesn't work, let's fix it after that. >> Nithin, I got to get your thoughts on building a company, 'cause obviously, you're also not only in this as an investor, you're also doing strategic advisory work for people building the venture architecture and then the actual build up plans for their venture. So you've talked about this in the past, you have a relationship with some protocol guys, you can check with them, there's some good network there. But there's also a dynamic with this industry where the business development aspect of it is really important. People are partnering, >> Very very important. And there's a way to partner and a way not a partner. There's a way to do token economics and there's a way not to do token economics. What is your advice, to companies that have a good thing going on, they have a tail wind at their back, they got wind in their sails, but have to make some hot partnering decisions. Looking for fellows, fellowship in that ecosystem. How do you advise folks in this partnerships and then talk about token economics after? >> So the first thing I would tell founders is to reach out. This community is very very supportive. Like you can reach out to me, you can reach out to other guys, LinkedIn, Facebook, or come to these events, and in the hallways. Say your idea and you need help, because you will need help, you cannot run this alone. You are running a company, you are running your team. Have a good team, that's a first thing. Have a great team, great founders, vision, execution, you need that. The next key thing is, you have to think about marketing and how do you market, you need to get some big names on your board who can reach out to their network and tell them about your idea. And they reach out of the rest for you. >> So networks are super important. >> Super super important, like... >> So advisor, that their advisor selection should be based on their network that they bring to the table. >> Right, so the first advisor selection is the guy who will help you flush out your idea properly as tokens. The next advisor set is a marketing advisor or a technical advisor. The marketing advisers also very important because you need to market the product, get the money in, because end of the day, you need money to build it. You need to pay your employees, whether it's in Bitcoins or in fear, It doesn't matter, one of these is required. So you have these three things, then you need to build strategic partnerships in your business. Say, let's see your a loyalty points guy, like Al is doing, You know Al right? >> Al Burgio, >> From FuZe Chain now doing DigitalBits. Hot deal, hot deal! >> Hot deal, hot deal. >> Look at what Al did, he went out, he got his strategic partnerships with the loyalty guys, now he's got the brand, the strategic partnerships, he's built a product already. The money he needs is only for go to market so that he can push it to multiple companies and get them on the chain. Brilliant idea so, strategic partnerships, advisors, founding team, and then, show the idea to the people. Go out there, let them know that this is what you're doing, why this idea is great, how big is the market, there was a problem that you're solving, what is your solution. Explain yourself frankly and honestly, and I think the community will reward you, to go and find your dream. >> Great point, be honest, ask for help. Again, I can't reiterate my experience of, I'll share, is during the computer revolution, Internet revolution, Web.1.o, and now partnering in the early days when it's forming, can make or break a company. Make or break a company. >> Very True! So, note to that, okay now, token economics. >> Nithin: Sure! >> Sounds easy, but you really got to make sure that you have a good economic framework that matches the value proposition. Talk about what you advise there. >> So last day of the one founder restart to me, ICO is going on for our seventh day into the ICO. He's raised less than 300 thousand dollars. I meet him, and he needs help. After what, seven days into the ICO, all I could tell him is, shut off your ICO, it's not going to raise money. He's like, "Why," and I'm like, he said, "read this paper." I'm like, "There's nothing in this paper "I can put money into." And he's like, "Why is that?" So I asked him, so how many companies has he put his money into, how many points has he bought? Four years, he has not bought a single coin. And he's flustered something by himself. So he's never bought a coin, and he's expecting people to buy coins at his price. So I tell people, either you should notice, you should be an investor yourself. So there are different kinds of investors, there are institutional investors that are funds, family offices, and then are retail investors. If you're not any one of these, or any one of in this group, how do you know what these guys are buying it for? So reach out to them! >> That's where the advisory comes in, Know your customer! >> Know your customer! And not the KYC in a different way, but know 'em from a marketing standpoint. Know how the retail, >> Exactly! purchase is made. >> Because if... >> If you yourself are a buyer, at least you have some idea. If you've never bought a token, and if you're, I had another founder tell me that, my tokens are worth hundred million. I'm like, you don't have a user, you just have a product. You're tokens are worth shite, if you ask me. It's worth zero, I can tell my house is worth hundred million dollars. It's only worth as much as the top buyer. How much is he willing to pay for me? So I told the founder, I'll pay so much for this price because I think, if it's about that, there's a huge risk as the main investor coming in. He doesn't agree! >> So lets talk about some, how rounds are being done now. So one trend that I'm seeing, not, I shouldn't say trend, a few deals I've seen done, but it seems like a trend, I'm trying to get validation on this, Where people are avoiding the public ICO altogether, doing all privates. >> Yes! Basically over subscribed round. Trend, dynamic, real deal, what's your thoughts on reaction to that? >> It's just that the founders are adapting. Because if you go to the public, the moment you're going to the public, what's happening is, there's the SEZ component. Whether it's a utility and they can come after you, so they have made it private. And then they went after, and even further, a lot of the founders that I know, they just stopped accepting money from US entities or US individuals. Well it's a bad deal for a small investor. See the big investors are wealthy investors. They all have an external entity where they can invest into it. What about the small investor who was investing thousand dollars or 5,000 dollars? Now you have pretty much shut out his chance of getting into a great ICO. So the founder is going to raise his money from maybe Korea, Japan, China, and Singapore. He's going to form a company or a foundation in Cayman, or Lichtenstein, or Gibraltar. The small investor is a loser. The large institutional investor has no loss in this process, so, that is the founder adapting because he does not want, >> They want to manage, >> They don't want it to become lawsuits, basically. >> Compliance, audits, SEZ problems, they don't end fencing problems. >> So now let's compare, in contrast, different kind of companies. US based company, wants to raise money in the US, they do accredited. But they want to go outside, say Asia, or an Asia company wants to raise money in the US, what's that dynamic like, what are the issues? >> I think what's going to happen is they going to, some of them are going to register themselves as a security token, some of them are going to do just a reg D for very high net worth individuals. And the common, the the public round, they going to raise it from the China, the Korea, Japan, or is lobbying them. And that's what I think, multiple small countries are going to come into the space, which they know now, they can get the capital flowing into their company, and they going to allow their rules to be lax. They going to let capitol flow through. And then US will have to change, or maybe UK will have to change, whoever is against this will have to change. Capital means money, belt capital, and resource capital, like humans, we tend to move to places that are freer. Why did I move from India to US, or why did your parents or the earlier generation move to US? >> John: For a better life. >> It's a better life, the real better life is, you have the freedom over your property, the fruits of your labor. If the fruits of your labor are taxed at 50% or thirty, the more it goes up, you just don't want to work anymore, or you're going to to search for that place that will tax you less. >> Like Puerto Rico! >> Nithan: Puerto Rico! >> Are you bullish on Puerto Rico? >> I am bullish on Puerto Rico because, these, if they can sustain this, and have the rule of law, means they can protect people's wealth, like from crime and all those things, crime or being kidnapped. These two things happen, I'm telling you, most people will move or some of state will have to change their laws. >> They got to get >> the security up. Nithan, thanks so much for coming on the CUBE. Really appreciate your insight. Thanks for sharing! >> Thank you very much. This is the CUBEs exclusive coverage from Puerto Rico where we're getting on the ground here. Getting all the data from the Blockchain Unbound Conference. Part of restart week. I'm John Furry here, we've got more coverage after this break, thanks for watching! (upbeat electronic music)

>> Announcer: Live from Nassau in the Bahamas, it's the Cube. Covering Polycon '18. Brought to you by Polymath. >> Welcome back, everyone. This is the Cube's exclusive coverage. We're live in the Bahamas, here for day two of our wall to wall coverage of Polycon '18. It's a security token conference, securitizing, you know, token economics, cryptography, cryptocurrency. All this is in play. Token economics powering the world. New investors are here. I'm John Furrier, Dave Vellante. Our next guest is Nithin Eapen Who's the Chief Investment Officer for Arcadia Crypto Ventures. Welcome to the Cube. >> Thank you very much gentlemen. >> Thanks for joining us. >> Thanks for coming out. >> Excited to have you on for a couple reasons. One, we've been talking since day one, lot of hallway conversations. Small, intimate conference, so we've had a chance to talk. Folks haven't heard that yet, so let's kind of get some of the key things we discussed. You are very bullish and long on cryptocurrency and Blockchain. You guys are doing a variety of deals. You're also advising companies and you guys are rolling your sleeves up. So kind of interesting dynamics. So take a minute to explain what you guys are doing, your model. >> Okay. >> And we're going to try to get some of your partners on later. You have a great team. >> Yep. >> Experienced pros in investing. And you got wales, you got pros. So you got a nice balance. >> Yes we do. >> So take a minute to explain Arcadia, your approach and philosophy. >> Okay. Okay. So Arcadia Crypto Ventures primarily we are a private fund. We invest other money. We believe in the whole crypto space. We believe this market is expanding and it is growing and it's going to be the biggest thing that ever happened. It's going to be this fusion of internet and PC and mobile. And everything is going to go batshit, okay. We believe in the whole tokenization world. Everything is going to be tokenized. So as a whole, we believe this space is going to go very big. Okay, so that's one piece and because of that, we invest in the space, the whole space. Not one bitcoin or Ethereum, but everything in the space that makes sense. People who have a use case. Now the second piece of it is we advised great founders. We want to get founders to come out and build these new things because this is the new internet of the new era and people have to come out and build these things. And so many of them are traditional businesses and we have to explain to them why this matters, why you should come to this space and be decentralized and reach the whole world. Because initially, the internet came. The idea of the internet was everybody gets information. Now information did get everywhere. You don't have to worry that the mailman is there to deliver your email anymore. Even if it's a Sunday, your mail will get delivered. So that part was good. But now you have these few companies that's holding all your data. It's okay for most people, but they do censor a lot of people. So that is one point. That censorship. We want a censorship-resistant world where everybody's ideas get out. So that way, we believe that's how this whole internet space itself is going to change because of that. See this is if I explained in one word, this is the greatest sociopolitical economic experimental revolution ever that has happened in humankind. >> In the history of the world. I mean this is important. I'd said that on my opening today. >> Uh-huh. >> Dave and I were riffing and Dave and I have always been studying. We've been entre-- We are entrepreneurs. We live in Silken Valleys in Boston and so you seeing structural change going on. So it's not just make money. >> Nope. >> There's mission-based, younger demographics. So you starting to see really great stuff. So I want to ask you specifically, 'cause you guys are unique in the sense that you're investing in a lot of things. But startups, pure-playing startups? >> Which had only one path before, or two paths. >> Right, yeah. >> Cashflow financing and venture capital. >> Okay. >> So that's a startup model. The growing companies that are transform their growth business with token economics, those would have long odds. Those are the best deals. >> Okay. Then there's like the third deal. Well we're out of business, throw the Hail Mary, repivot. (laughs) Right, so categorically, you're starting to see the shape of the kinds of swim lanes of deals. >> Okay. >> Okay, pivoting, that Hail Mary. Okay, you can evaluate that pretty much straight up on that. Startups need nurturing, right? >> Yeah. >> So the VC1 al-oc-chew works really well for startups because of the product market fits going to be developed. You got cloud computing so you can go faster. So you guys are nurturing startups. At the same time, you're also doing growth deals. >> We do. >> Explain the dynamic between those kinds of deals, how you guys approach them. What's the dynamic? What are the key things that you're bringing? Is it just packaging? Is it tech? So on, so forth. >> So with a lot of people, when they are on the advisory side. Primarily we look at the founder and the tech. What are they trying to solve? That is key. If it's a turd, you can't package it. No matter how you package it, that's not going to work. >> You can't package dog you-know-what. >> Yeah, exactly, okay. >> So that's one thing that we look at. The founders and their idea. Now their idea, can it be decentralized? Some models are meant to be centralized maybe so it doesn't work, okay. Like, see it all boils down to-- Let me break it down. We look at it. Okay, do you have an asset? Behind the scenes, is there an asset? Is that asset being transferred among parties? If you have an asset and it's being transferred, is there some central mechanism in between? Because if there is a central mechanism in between, that means you're going to be paying rent to that. Okay, all right. You have these things. Okay, great. Now you have your asset. Do you have that in between party? But in some of them, let's say you have money in your pocket. You walk, it falls down. Somebody else pick ups the money. It's his. It's a bearer asset, okay? So that's where bitcoin solved a very big problem. It was bearer asset. >> Unless they hack your wallet, then they take your money. >> Right. That happens in real life too, right? Somebody can take money from your wallet. So it can happen in bitcoin. They can hack your wallet. All right. So bitcoin was solving that problem. Now the second piece is a registered asset. And I mean by registered asset is take your car. You buy your car, you go to the DMV, stand in line, register. There's a record of data at the DMV in their central database. If somebody steals your car, the car is still not his. It's only if they can change the record over there in DMV. Then it becomes his. Now there maybe you do want the DMV to be there. Or maybe we can-- But the DMV being there, now you have a problem. They're going to charge you rent and they can decide, oh you know what? John, I'm not going to give him a license or a car in the state of California. They can decide, right? So that is where now you decide do you want to go the centralized route or the decentralized route? So we break it down to the asset. >> So there could be a fit for decentralized. I get that. >> Yeah. >> Let me ask you a tactical question, because I know a lot of entrepreneurs out there. They're watching and they'll hear this. A big strategic decision up front is, obviously, token selection. >> So it's pretty clear that security token works really well for funding and whatnot. Then there's a role for security tokens. I mean utility tokens. >> Yes. >> So do people, should they start from a risk management standpoint, a new company. So let's just say we had an existing business. Entrepreneur says, "Hey, you know what? We're doing well. We're doing 10 million dollars in revenue and I want to do tokenize 'cause we're a decentralized business. That's a perfect fit." Do they start a new company or do they just use the security token with their existing stable company? >> I would suggest, usually at that time, that's more of a legal question at that time. I don't know if I'm a lawyer to answer that. I tell them, you have a business. The business model is going well. If you're happy with it, let that be there. Make a new company. If your business model was not doing good, you might as well start from there because you figure out it's not working. But again, at that time, we tried to come up with this question. Are you trying to put the old wine in a new bottle kind of thing? If the wine is old, it ain't going to work. You have to get to that realization. So, here. >> People are being sued. So mainly the legal question is do I want to risk being. >> All right, let me hop in here. I wanted to ask, go back to something you said about censorship. I had this conversation with my kid the other day. I was explaining Google essentially censors your search results based on what they think you're going to click on. >> They do that. >> He's like no and then he thought about it and he's like okay, yeah they kind of do that. Okay, so that's an underpinning of we're going to take back the internet, right? >> Yeah. >> Okay, I just wanted to sort of clarify that. From an investment philosophy standpoint, you're technical, yet you don't exclusively vet or invest in infrastructure protocols and dig deep into what-- You read the white papers, but there are some folks out there hedge funds, et cetera. All they do is just invest in utility tokens. They're trying to invest in stuff that's going to be infrastructure for the next internet. Your philosophy is different. You're saying, we talked about this, we don't really know what's going to win, but we make prudent investments in areas that we think will win. We like to spread it around a little bit. Why that philosophy? May reduce your return, but it also reduces your risk. Maybe you could describe that a little bit. >> Sure. See, in general, picking winners in the long run has been-- It's a proved fact that nobody could pick winners. Like if you take active hedge fund managers. Active hedge fund managers, in the long run, if you take 10 to 20 years, they lag the S and P. So if you had money, if you give it to an active hedge fund manager, and so that you just had to buy the S and P, you will have beaten 93%. >> That's Buffet's advice. Buy an S and P 500. >> Buffet made a bet for a billion dollars or something where, you know. So take Warren Buffet for that matter, his fund is lagging too. In reality, all his stock investments are down. He put it in IBM at $200 after eight years, it's at the 143 or something, right? So realistically,-- There's a lot of luck element, okay. You can do all of the analysis and you could still end up buying Enron, Lehman, and Bear Stearns, right? >> Right, yeah. >> And at that time, see they were using some models that they knew 'til then. Most people, investment comes from, you have this background that you know, okay this is what I look at. Cash flow, discounted cash flow. Great. If that is there, price to earnings, I'm going to buy. But then an Amazon came, most of the traditional investors never invested in Amazon. They were like, it's a loss- making company. They never going to survive. But they forgot the fact that companies like that there's this network effect and once the people are there, at any point, Jeff Bezos can just turn off the switch and take off the discount. You're not going to change your shopping from Amazon at that point because this month I lost my 15%. We're so used to it so people missed that. Nowadays they see that, but when it came to Blockchain they're like, oh, no, no, this is a fad. That's what most people said. >> So we talked about discounted cashflow as a classic valuation method. I see guys trying to do DCF on these investments. I mean, we were joking about that. (laughs) How do you-- What's your reaction to that? >> If anybody's saying that if they come to me and I'm like you-- I don't know what Kool-Aid do you drink at that point because what cashflow are they discounting? There's no cashflow. It's not like you're going to get dividends from these tokens. There's no dividends. It's like can you find out how many people are going to use it. What is the network effect? And again, for that, a lot of people are coming with a lot of these matrices or matrix right now. But I think even that, they're trying to retrofit into it. They're like, oh I can use this matrix. But, really we don't know. >> So people tend to want metrics. Dave and I talk about this all the time. When people part with their money, they need to know what they're betting on. So the question is when you look at investments, when you spend cash, when you write checks, what is your valuation technique? Do you look for the l-- How do you play that long game? What's the criteria? Besides like the normal stuff like founders, disruptive, like you got to write the check, let's say. Okay, buying a token. It's got to be worth something in the future, obviously. >> So we look at that space, where invariably they are trying to disrupt. Is there a big market? And even if it's a niche market, okay? So we're doing an error chain token. It's a very niche market. It's just the pilot, the maintenance folks, and the charter people, or the plain charter guys. It's a very small market, but that's good enough. It's very niche. They can have an ecosystem between themselves rather than being incentivized to long game miles and stuff like that, right? It doesn't have to be a very big market. We just look at it, okay. Founder is good, he has an idea, it is a space that can be decentralized and people can come in and they feel that they're part of the ecosystem. See the whole thing with the token economy and a traditional economy like let's say I'm spending money to buy a stock. So I buy stock. As an investor, what do I want? I want maximum returns. The employee, he wants to get maximum pay. And the consumer who's buying the product, he wants to get it at the cheapest price. So there's a-- It start aligned, okay? The moment you give 'em the cheapest price, my profits go down. If I increase the employees' salary, my profits go down. So we are all three of us are totally misaligned. >> If I for an important point, do you favor certain asset classes, you know, token, security tokens, or utility tokens, or you looking for equity? I mean, maybe just ... >> Right now, we've moved away from the whole equity bonds, or any of those things. We are totally concentrated on the utility or security tokens. We don't mind if it's a security token or utility token. >> And if it's a security token, are you looking for dividends, are you looking for >> At that point it's some kind of dividend. >> So you're not expecting equity as part of that security token? >> No, I like to expect equity, but if they are saying okay my token, if people buy and if they pay me $10, and out of that you're going to get $1 back, okay that's fine. We don't mind that as long as it's legal and all those things we're fine because it just makes the process easier. Earlier you invest and you didn't know when you could get out of your investment. At this point, it's become so liquid, at any point of time within two or three months, the token is less to people are either buying and selling. We know, otherwise, earlier when we used to do Ren Chain investments, we would get into our product, have it it's time seven to 10 years to get out. And in the meanwhile, they say great stories. Oh we're doing great. Who do I check with that we are doing great? I'm not getting any dividends. Nobody's buying this from me. How do I know? Where am I? I really don't know. I can make these values up and on my Excel sheet and say okay we valuing this company at a billion. >> So your technique is to say okay look at the equity plays the long game. You need an exit on liquidity, either M and A or IPO. >> Yes. >> Now you have a new liquidity market, so you play the game differently. I won't say spray and pray, but you have multiple bets going on so you can monitor liquidity opportunity. So that's a new calculation. >> And it's a great calculation, also. Because see we're in the market and now we know at any point of time, we don't have things on our books that are like we don't know what the value is. We know what that price is because the market is there, the exchange is there. What other people are willing to pay for us doesn't surprise. It's like saying my house is worth a million dollars. Actually it might be worth to me. It depends on what people are willing to pay me. >> Right exactly. >> If I have to synthesize this, you're taking high frequency trading techniques with classic venture investing, handling token from those two perspectives. >> Yes. >> High frequency trading meaning I'm looking at volatility and then option to abandon and get rid of whatever or whatever. >> The only thing is, we're not exiting our positions. We are in the long game. We believe the score market is supposed to at least reach eight trillion. When we started this whole investing, at that time, the whole market was at six billion and we said okay this market, based on our thesis, is supposed to reach eight trillion. Until then, we keep buying, okay? >> But to your HFT, you're not really arbitraging. >> No, no, we're not doing any of those. Because see >> They're applying real time techniques to token evaluations so they're game is try to get into a winner. >> Yes. >> With some tokens. >> A lot of the funds, they're doing this arbitrage more. They're trying to do arbitrage. But the problem is they're missing the big picture that way. So, arbitrage works in a very tight market. So S and P, let's say, somebody's doing 5% return on S and P. The guy with a arbitrage is coming and saying I made five point three, 5.5% or 6%. That's great in the equity world. Now, I want returns last year are 10 x or 30 x or 50 x. And somebody comes and tells me I made an extra 0.2%, doesn't really matter to me. I'm like instead of wasting that time doing arbitrage and paying taxes, I might just hold it. >> You believe in the fundamentals. >> You guys are in New York. Obviously, Arcadia Crypto Ventures, that's how they get ahold of you guys. Final question for you to end the segment. As new real pros come in, and let's take New York as a since you're in New York. The New York crowd comes in or the Silken Valley comes crowd existing market players other markets come in here. How important is optics packaging and compatibility with the sector, meaning I just can't throw my weight around on the hedge fund scene. We do it this way, I got money. Because people here have money. So what's the dynamic of pros coming in, we're seeing institutional folks come in, we're seeing real pros come in. They've never been to Burning Man. So, you know, they get that Burning Man culture exists, but this is not a Burning Man industry. >> Right, right. >> Business doesn't run like Burning Man. Maybe it should, that's a debate we'll have. Your take. >> So the new funds that are coming in, so they have a fear that they have missed out. They are missing the picture that this is just the beginning. So they've seen that this industry has gone from six billion to 500 billion in a year or year and a half. They're like, oh my god, I missed it. >> It's got to be over. >> So I have to write these big checks to get this. We don't write big checks. We write much smaller checks because we believe that if a founder is raising money, he has to raise it through small checks from everybody. That means all those people are really interested in this. And they're all of them really want the token to go up. Whether it's the investor, the user, and the employee who is working there because all of them they're interests are aligned. The moment you give a big check, so let's say you could raise 10 million from 10,000 people or you could raise it from one person. So when the big check is there, let's say I go to raise my money. There's this fund who's missed it and he says here's 10 million dollars. Okay, now I've got me and the fund and my tokens. Nobody else knows about my tokens. My tokens are as good as valueless. Now the funders looking okay, I need to exit. Nobody knows about my tokens. The fund is the only guy who has my tokens, he's trying to exit. Obviously the market is going to crash. There's no market. And he's like why did I get into this. So he missed that point that you need people around you. It's not just you alone. See, earlier days when ... >> This is your point about understanding how token economics works. >> Yes. >> So having more people in actually creates a game mechanic for trading. >> Because then you know that you're not the only guy interested in this. And earlier venture capital space there were these bunch of few venture capitals who wanted to capture that whole thing and tried to sell it to the next guy. Here, I'm what I'm saying is, we all have to come in together. We all can be together at the same price, which is good because the small person has, the common man has a chance to be a VC right now. Earlier you could never be a VC. I could only see Google, after IPO. I could never get it at what KPCB or Sequoia got it at. I had to wait 'til they got through CDA, CDB, which they bought at five cents. I would get at about $40 maybe. In this case, the big fund has a lot more money than me, but I can have my small 5,000 or 10,000. I can invest in the ICO. >> If you picked the right spot and you were there at the right place, the right time. 'Cause you are seeing guys come in and try to buy up all the tokens early on. >> They're trying to do that. They don't get it, but they will understand. So it is a learning (mumbles). Even they will evolve. They're like okay this is not how it works. And you have to make mistakes. >> Sorry, got to ask you one final, final since you brought it up. More people the better. So we're hearing rumors inside the hallways here that big wales are buying full allocations and then sharing them with all their friends. >> Possible, it is possible. >> We see some of that behavior. Dave calls it steel on steel, you know. Groups, you know. I'm going to take this whole deal down. We see that in venture capital. Used to be syndicates. Now you seeing Andreessen Horowitz doing the whole deals. That kind of creates some alienation, my opinion, but what's your take on that? I'm a big wale. I'm taking down the whole allocation. >> It's okay. Some of those things are going to happen, okay. It is fine. The only problem is usually when that happens the big wale who takes it he will realize very quickly. >> He's got to get more people. >> He needs more people otherwise he might be able to exit to his five buddies who were always taking it from him. Now those guys, they also have to exit at some point. Nobody knows about the product. Might as well just take a small piece, even the founders in this case typically in a token model. Founders who've taken 20% or 10% have done better than founders who took 60% of the whole tokens. >> Right. Nithin, great to have you on. Love your business model. Arcadia Crypto Ventures. They got real pros, they got a wale, they got people who know what they're doing, and they're active. They understand the ethos. I think you guys are well-aligned and you're not trying to come in and saying this is how we did it in New York before. You get the culture. You're aligned and you're making investments. Great perspective. Thanks for sharing. >> Thank you so much. >> This is the Cube, bringing the investor perspective live here in the Bahamas. More exclusive Cube coverage. Token economics, huge opportunity for entrepreneurs and investors to create value and capture it. That's Blockchain, that's crypto, that's token economics. I'm John with Dave Vallante. We'll be back with more coverage after this short break. (futuristic digital music)