>>from around the globe. It's the Cube presenting Cuban Cloud brought to you by Silicon Angle. >>Welcome back to the Cubes. Special Presentation on the Future of Cloud. Three years ago, Alan Nance said to me that in order to really take advantage of Cloud and Dr Billions of dollars of value, you have to change the operating model. I've never forgotten that statement have explored it from many angles over the last three years. In fact, it was one of the motivations for me actually running this program for our audience. Of course with me is Alan Nance. He's a change agent. He's led transformations that large organizations, including I N G Bank, Royal, Philips, Barclays Bank and many others. He's also a co founder of Citrus Collab. Alan, great to see you. Thanks for coming on the program. >>Thanks for having me again there. >>All right. So when we were preparing for this interview you shared with me the following you said enterprise, I t often hasn't really tapped the true powers that are available to them to make real connections to take advantage of that opportunity. Connections to the business, That is What >>do >>you mean by that. >>Well, I think, you know, we've been saying for quite a long time that enterprise. It is certainly a big part of our past in technology. But you know, just how much is it going to be in the future on, you know, enterprise, I t has had a difficult time under The pressure's off being a centralized organization with large expanse of large Catholics, while at the same time we see obviously the digital operations growing oftentimes in separate reporting structures and closer to the business on. And what I'm thinking right now is enterprise i t. If it has made this transition to cloud operating models, whether they are proprietary or whether they are public cloud, there's a huge opportunity for enterprise. I t. Thio connect the dots in a way that no other part of the organization can do that. And when they connect those dots working closely with the business, they unleash a huge amount of value that is beyond things like efficiency or things like just just just providing cloud computing to be flexible. It has to be much more about value generation. Andi. I think that a lot of leaders of enterprise I t have not really grasped that, Andi. I think that's the opportunity is sitting right in front of them right now. >>You know what I've seen lately? I wonder if you could. Comment is You know, obviously we always talk about the stove pipes, but you've you've seen, you know, the CEO, >>the chief >>data officer that you just mentioned the chief digital officer, the chief information security officer. They've largely been in their own silos. I'm definitely seeing a move to bring those together. I'm seeing a lot of CDOs and CEO roles come together and even the chief information or the head of security reporting up into that where there's there seems to be as your sort of suggesting just a lot more visibility across the entire organization. Is it Is it an organizational issue? Is it? Ah, is it a mindset? But only if you could comment. >>Well, I would say it zits, two or three different things, but certainly it's an organizational issue. But I think it starts off with a cultural issue. Andi, I think what you're seeing, and if you look at the more progressive companies that you see, I think you are also seeing a new emergence off the enlightened technology leader s O. With all respect to me and my generation, our tenure as the owners off the large enterprise, it is coming to an end. And we grew up trying to master the complexity of the off the silos. As you so definitely pointed out, we were battling this falling technology, trying to get it under control, trying to get the costs down, trying to reduce Catholics. And a lot of that was focused on the partnerships that we had with technology suppliers on DSO. That mindset of being engineers struggling for control. Having your most important part of being a technology company itself that now I think is giving way is giving way to a new generation of technology leaders who haven't grown up with that culture. Onda. Oftentimes what I see is that the new enlightened CEOs are female, and they are coming into the role outside of the regular promotion change. So they're coming to these rolls through finance H R marketing on their bringing. A different focus on the focus is much more about how do we work together to create an amazing experience for our employees and for our customers on an experience that drives value. So I think there's a reset in the culture. And clearly, when you start talking about creating a value chain to improve experience, you're also talking about bringing people together from different multidisciplinary backgrounds to make that happen. >>Well, that's kind of, you know, it makes me think about Amazon's mantra of working backwards. You know, start with the experience and and and a lot of a lot of CEOs that I know would love tow beam or involved in the business. But they're just so busy trying to keep the lights on like you said, trying to manage vendors. And like, you know, I had a discussion the other day, Allen with an individual. We were talking about how you know, you got a shift from a product mindset to a platform mindset. But you know, you've said that that platform thinking you're always ahead of the game platform, thinking it needs to make way for ecosystem thinking, you know, unless you're Internet giant scale business like Amazon or Spotify, you said you're gonna be in a niche market if you really don't tap that ecosystem again. If you could explain what you mean by that. >>I think right now if this movement to experience is fundamental, right? So Joe Pine and Gilmore wrote about the experience economy as far back in 1990. But the things that they predicted then are here now. And so what we're now seeing is that consumers have choice. Employees have choice. I think the pandemic has accelerated that. And so what happens when you, when you when you put an enterprise under that type of external pressure, is that it fragments and even fragment into ways it can fragment dysfunctional E so that every silo tries to go into a a defensive mode protective mode? That's obviously the wrong way to go. But the fragmentation that's exciting is when it fragments into ecosystems that are actually working together to solve an experience problem. And those are not platforms. They're too big, you know, When I was Phillips, I was very enthusiastic about working on this connected health care platform, but I think what I started to realize was it takes too much time. It requires too much investment on you are bringing people to you based on your capability. Where is what the market needs is much more agile than that. So if we look in health care, for instance, and you want to connect patients at home with patient with the doctors in the hospital, in the old model you so I'm gonna build a platform for this. I'm gonna have doctors with a certain competence and they're gonna be connecting into this. And so are the patients in some way. And so are the insurers. I think what you're going to see now is different. We're going to say, Let's get together A small team that understands it's called, For instance, let's get a an insurance provider. Let's get a health care operator. Let's get a healthcare tech company on. Let's pull their data in a way that helps us to create solutions now that that can roll out in 30 60 or 90 days. And the thing that that makes that possible is the move to the public crowd because now there are so many specialized supplier, specialized skill sets available that you can connect to through Amazon through Google, through through azure that that these these things that we usedto I think we're very, very difficult are now much easier. I don't want to minimize the effort, but these things are on the table right now. Thio Revalue. >>So you're also a technologist and I wanna ask you and and everybody always says, it's the technology is easy part. It's the people in the process and, you know, way we can all agree on that. However, sometimes technology could be a blocker. And the example that you just mentioned, I have a couple of takeaways from that. First of all, you know the platform thinking it sounds like it's more command and control, and you're advocating for Let's get the ecosystem who are closest to the problem. To solve those problems, however, they decide and leverage the cloud. So my question is from a technology standpoint, does that echo have system have to be on the same cloud with the state of today's technology? Can it be across clouds can be there pieces on Prem? What's your thinking on that? >>I think I think exactly the opposite. It cannot be monolithic and centralized. It's just not practical because that was that was that would cause you too much time on interoperability and who owns what you see The power behind experience is data. And so the most important technical part of this is dealing with data liquidity. So the data that for instance, um, somebody like Kaiser has or the the Harvard Health Care have or the Philips have that's not going to be put into a central place. But for the ecosystem mobilization, there will be subsets of that data flowing between those parties. So the technical, the heart there is how do we manage data liquidity? How do we manage the security around the data liquidity on How do we also understand that what we're building is going to be ever changing and maybe temporary, because on idea may not work, eh? So you've got this idea that the timeliness is very, very important. The duration is very uncertain. The motor the energy for this is data liquidity data transfer, data sharing. But the vehicle is the combination off. Probably crowd in my mind. >>Somebody said to me, Hey, that data is like water. It'll go. It'll go where it wants to go where it needs to go. You can't try to control it. It's let it go. Uh, now, of course, many organizations, particularly large incumbent organizations there. They have many, many data pipelines. They have many processes, many roles, and they're struggling toe actually kind of inject automation into those pipelines. Maybe that's machine intelligence, uh, really doom or data sharing across that pipeline and and ultimately compress the end and cycle. Time to go from raw data insights that are actionable. What are you seeing there and what's your advice? >>Well, I think the the you make some really good points. But what I hear also a little bit in your observation is you're still observing Enterprises on the end of the focus of the enterprise has been on optimizing the processes within the boundaries of its own system. That's why we have s a P. And that's why we have a sales force and, to some degree, even service. Now it's all been about optimizing how we move data, how we create products and services on. That's not the game. Now that's not an important game. Three important game right now is how do I connect to my employees? How do I connect to my customers in a way that provides them a memorable experience? And the realization is we've seen this already a manufacturing for some years. I can't be allowed things to people. So I have to understand where the first part of data comes in. I have to understand who this person is that I am trying to target. Who is the person that needs this memorable experience on what is that memorable experience gonna look like? And I'm going to need my data. But I'm also going to need the data of other actors in that ecosystem. And then I'm gonna have to build that ecosystem really quickly to take advantage off the system. So this throws a monkey wrench in traditional ideas of standardization. It throws a monkey wrench in the idea that enterprise I t is about efficiency on. But if I may, I just want to come back to the day I because I think we're looking in the wrong places. Things like a I let me give you an example. Today there are 2.2 million people working in call centers around the world. If we imagine that they work in three shifts, that means that any one time there are 700,000 people on the phone to a customer on that customer is calling that company because they're vested. They're calling them with advice. They're calling them with a question. They're calling them with a complaint. It is the most important source off valuable data that any company has. And yet what have we done with that? What we've done with that is we have attacked it with efficiency. So instead of saying these are the most valuable sources of information, let's use a I to to tag the sentiment in the recordings that we make with our most valuable stakeholders on this and analyze them for trends, ideas, things that need to change. We don't do that. What we do is we were going to give every call agent two minutes to get them off the phone. For God's sake, don't ask so many import difficult questions. Don't spend money talking to the customer. Try to make them happy so they get a score and say they hire you at the end of the core and then you're done. So so where the AI and automation needs to come in is not in improving efficiency but in mining value. And the real opportunity with a I Is that Joe Pine says this. If you are able to understand the customer rather than interpret them, that is so valuable to the customer that they will pay money for that. I think that's where the whole focus needs to be in this new teaming of enterprise I t. And that's true business. >>It's a great observations. I think we can all relate to that in your call center example, or you've been in a restaurant. You're trying to turn the tables fast and get you out of there. And that's the last time you ever go to that restaurant and you're you're taking that notion of systems thinking and broadening it to ecosystems thinking. And you've said ecosystems have a better chance of success when they're used to stage an experience for whether it's the employees for the brand and of course, the customer and the partners. >>That's it. That's exactly yet. So every technology leader should be asking themselves what contribution can can my and my organization makes of this movement because the business understands the problem, they don't understand how to solve it, and we've chosen a different dialogues. We've been talking a lot about what cloud could do and the functionality that clown has and the potential that clown has on those aerial good things. But it really comes together now when we work together and we, as the technology group brings in, they know how we know how toe connect quickly through the public cloud. We know how to do that in a secure way. We know how to manage data, liquidity at scale, and we can stand these things up through our, you know, our new learning of agile and devils we can stand. These ecosystems are fairly quickly now. There's still a whole bunch of culture between different businesses that have to work together through the idea that I have to protect my data rather than serve the customer. But once you get past that, there's a whole new conversation enterprise. It you can have that, I think, gives them a new lease of life, new value. And I just think it's a really, really exciting time. Yes, >>so you're seeing the intersection of a lot of different things. You talk about cloud as you know, an enabler for sure, and that's great. We could talk about that, but you've got this what you're referring to before is, you know, maybe you're in a niche market, but you have your marketplace and like you're saying, you can actually use that through an ecosystem to really leave her a much, much broader available market and then vector that into the experience economy. You know, we talk about subscriptions, the AP economy. That really is new thinking, >>yes, and I think what you're seeing here is it zits, not radical. Inasmuch as all of these ideas have been around, some of them have been around since the nineties. But what's radical is the way in which we can now mix and match these technologies to make this happen. That's gone so quickly on, I would argue to you, and I've argued this before. Scale scale is a concept within an organization is dead. It doesn't give you enough value. It gives you enough efficiency, and it gives you a cloud. But it doesn't give you three opportunity to target the niche experiences that you need to do. So. If we start to think off an organization as a a combination off known and unknown potential ecosystems, you start to build a different operating model, a different architectural idea you start to look outside more than you start to look insight. Which is why the cultural change that we were talking about just now goes hand in hand with this because people have to be comfortable thinking in ecosystems that may not yet exist on partnering with people where they bring to the table there, you know, 2030 years of experience in a new and different way. >>Let me make sure I understand that. So you're basically if I understand you're saying that if you're sort of end goal is scale and efficiency at scale, you're you're gonna have a vanilla solution for your customers and your ecosystem. Whereas if you will allow this outside in thinking to come in, you're gonna be able to actually customize those experience experiences and get the value of scale and efficiency. >>Right? So, I mean, Rory Sutherland, who is ah, big finger in the in. The marketing world has always said, ultimately, scale standardization and best practice lead to mediocrity because you are not focused on the most important thing for your employees or your brand, or you're you're focused on the efficiency factors on. They create very little value in fact, we know that they subvert value. So, yes, we need to have a very big mindset change. >>Yeah, You're a top line thinker, Allen. And and always at the forefront. I really appreciate you coming on to the to the Cuban. Participate in this program. Give us the last word. So if you're a change agent, I wanna I'm an organization, and I want to inject this type of change. Where do I >>start? Well, I think it starts by identifying. Are we going to? Is it are we gonna work on the employee experience? Do we feel that we have a model where the employees that are on stage with customers are so important that the focus has to be employees? We go down that route and we look at what happened to the pandemic. What type of experiences are we going to bring to those employees around their ability to have flow in their work, to get returned on energy, to excite the customers? Let's do that. Let's figure out what experience are we driving now? What does that experience need to be if we're the customer side? As I said, let's look ALS. The sources of information that we already have. You know, I know companies to spend hundreds of millions a year trying to figure out what consumers what. And yet if we look in their call centers, you will call up and and they will say to Your call may be recorded for quality purposes and training on this is not true. Less than 10% of those calls that ever listened to on if they are listening to its compliance that's driving that, not the burning desire to better understand the consumer. So if we change that, then we say Okay, so what can we change? What is the experience that we are now able to stage with all we know and with all weaken dio on debts? Start there. Let's start with what is the experience you want to stage? What's the experience landscape look like now? And who do we bring together to make that happen? >>Allen. Fantastic. Having you back in the Cube, it's always a pleasure. And, uh, and thanks so much for participating. >>Thank you, Dave. It's always a pleasure to speak with you. >>Thank you. Everybody, this is Dave Volonte. The Cuban cloud will be right back right after this short break. Stay with

>> From the cube studios in Palo Alto and Boston, connecting with thought leaders all around the world. This is a cube conversation. >> Hello everyone, welcome back to the cubes. Special presentation on the future of cloud. Three years ago, Alan Nance said to me that in order to really take advantage of cloud and drive billions of dollars of value, you have to change the operating model. I've never forgotten that statement and have explored it from many angles over the last three years. In fact it was one of the motivations for me actually running this program for our audience. Of course with me is Alan Nance. He is a change agent. He's led transformations at large organizations, including ING bank, Royal Phillips, Barclay's bank, and many others. He's also a co-founder of CitrusCollab. Alan, great to see you. Thanks for coming on the program. >> Thanks for having me again, Dave. >> All right, so when we were preparing for this interview, you shared with me the following, you said enterprise IT, often hasn't really tapped the true powers that are available to them to make real connections, to take advantage of that opportunity, connections to the business that is. What do you mean by that? >> Well I think we we've been saying for quite a long time that enterprise IT is certainly a big part of our past in technology. But just how much is it going to be in the future? And enterprise IT has had a difficult time under the cost pressures of being a centralized organization with large, expensive, large topics. While at the same time we see obviously the digital operations for growing oftentimes in separate reporting structures and closest to the business. And what I'm thinking right now is enterprise IT, if it has made this transition to a cloud operating models, whether they are proprietary or whether they are public cloud, there's a huge opportunity for enterprise IT to connect the dots in a way that no other part of the organization can do that. And when they connect those dots, working closely with the business, they unleash a huge amount of value that is beyond things like efficiency or things like just providing cloud computing to be flexible. It has to be much more about value generation. And I think that a lot of leaders of enterprise IT have not really grasped that. And I think that's the opportunity sitting right in front of them right now. >> You know what I've seen lately? I wonder if you could comment, is obviously we always talk about the stove pipes, but you've seen the CIO, the chief data officer that you just mentioned, the chief digital officer, the chief information security officer, they've largely been in their own silos of definitely seeing a move to bring those together. I'm seeing a lot of CDOs and CIO roles come together. And even the chief information or the head of security reporting up into that, where there seems to be as you're sort of suggesting just a lot more visibility across the entire organization. Is it an organizational issue? Is it a mindset? Go on if you could comment. >> Well I would say it's two or three different things. Certainly it's an organizational issue, but I think it starts off with a cultural issue. And I think what you're seeing, and if you look at the more progressive companies that you see, I think you are also seeing a new emergence of the enlightened technology leader. So with all respect to me and my generation our tenure as the owners of the large enterprise IT is coming to an end. And we grew up trying to master the complexity of the silos as you so deftly pointed out. Out we were battling this soaring technology, trying to get it under control, trying to get the costs down, trying to reduce CapEx. And a lot of that was focused on the partnerships that we had with technology suppliers. And so that mindset of being engineers struggling for control, having your most important part of being a technology company itself, I've got now, I think is giving way, giving way to a new generation of technology leaders who haven't grown up with that culture. And oftentimes what I see is that the new enlightened CIOs are female and they are coming into the role outside of the regular promotion chain, so they're coming to these roles through finance, HR, marketing, and they're bringing a different focus. And the focus is much more about how do we work together to create an amazing experience for our employees and for our customers and an experience that drives value. So I think there's a reset in the culture. And clearly when you start talking about creating a value chain to improve experience, you're also talking about bringing people together from different multidisciplinary backgrounds to make that happen. >> Well that's kind of, it makes me think about Amazon's mantra of working backwards, start with the experience. And then a lot of CIOs that I know would love to be more involved in the business, but they're just so busy trying to keep the lights on. Like you said, trying to manage vendors and in the like. I've had a discussion the other day with an individual, we were talking about how, you got to shift from a product mindset to a platform mindset, but you've said that the platform thinking you're always ahead of the game. Platform thinking it needs to make way for ecosystem thinking. Unless you're into that, it'd be giant scale business like Amazon or Spotify you said, you're going to be in a niche market if you really don't tap that ecosystem again . If you could explain what you mean by that? >> Well I think right now, if this movement to experience is fundamental. Right? So Joe Pine and Jim Gilmore wrote about the experience economy as far back in 1990, but the things that they predicted then are here now. And so what we're now seeing is that consumers have choice. Employees have choice. I think the pandemic has accelerated that. And so what happens when you put an enterprise under that type of external pressure, is that it fragments. And if it can fragment in two ways. It can fragment dysfunctionally so that every silo tries to go into a defensive mode, protective mode. That's obviously the wrong way to go. But the fragmentation that's exciting is when it fragments into ecosystems that are actually working together to solve and experience problem. And those are not platforms they're too big. When I was at Phillips, I was very enthusiastic about working on this connected healthcare platform. But I think what I started to realize was it takes too much time. It requires too much investment and you are bringing people who tune you based on your capability, whereas what the market needs is much more agile than that. So if we look in healthcare, for instance and you want to connect patients at home, with patients, with the doctors in the hospital. In the old model when you said, I'm going to build a platform for this, I'm going to have doctors with a certain competence, so they're going to be connecting into this. And so are the patients in some way. And so are the insurers. I think what you're going to see now is different. We're going to say let's get together a small team that understands its competence. So for instance, let's get an insurance provider, let's get a healthcare operator, let's get a healthcare tech company and let's pull their data in a way that helps us to create solutions now that can roll out in 30, 60 or 90 days. And the thing that makes that possible is the move to the public cloud. Because now there are so many specialized suppliers, specialized skillsets available that you can connect to through Amazon, through Google, through Azure, that these things that we used to think were very, very difficult, are now much easier. I don't want to minimize the effort, but these things are on the table right now to read value. >> So you're also technologist. And I want to ask you and everybody always says, technology is easy part of the people and the process. We can all agree on that. However sometimes technology can be a blocker. And the example that you just mentioned, I have a couple of takeaways from that. First of all the platform thinking is somewhat, sounds like it's more command and control and you're advocating for let's get the ecosystem who are closest to the problem to solve those problems. However they decide and they'll leverage the cloud. So my question is from a technology standpoint. Does that ecosystem have to be in the same cloud, with the state of today's technology? can it be across clouds? Can be there pieces on prem? What's your thinking on that? >> I think exactly the opposite. It cannot be monolithic and centralized. It's just not practical because that would cause you too much time on interoperability. And who owns what. You see the power behind experience is data. And so the most important technical part of this is dealing with data liquidity. So the data that, for instance somebody like Kaiser has or the Harvard Mental Healthcare have or the Phillips have, that's not going to be put into a central place for the ecosystem mobilization. There will be subsets of that data flowing between those parties. So the technical, the hardware. Is how do we manage data liquidity? How do we manage the security around data liquidity? And how do we also understand that what we're building is going to be ever changing and maybe temporary, because an idea may not work. And so you've got this idea that the timeliness is very very important. The duration is very uncertain. The mojo energy for this is data liquidity, data transfer, data sharing. But the vehicle is the combination of public cloud, in my mind. >> Somebody said to me, hey that data's like water. It'll go where it wants to go, where it needs to go and you can't try to control it. It's let it go. Now of course many organizations, particularly large incumbent organizations they have many many data pipelines. They have many processes, many roles, and they're struggling to actually kind of inject automation into those pipelines. Maybe that's machine intelligence really do more data sharing across that pipeline and ultimately compress the end and cycle time to go from raw data to insights that are actionable. What are you seeing there? And what's your advice? >> Well I think you make some really good points, but what I hear also a little bit in your observation is you're still observing enterprises. And the focus of the enterprise has been on optimizing the processes within the boundaries of its own system. That's why we have SAP and this why we have Salesforce. And to some degree even service now. It's all been about optimizing how we move data, how we create production services. And that's not the game now. That's not an important game. The important game right now is how do I connect to my employees? How do I connect to my customers in a way that provides them a memorable experience? And the realization is, I'm assuming it's already manufacturing for some years. I can't be all things to all people. So I have to understand this is where the first part of data comes in. I have to understand. Who this person is that I am trying to target? Who is the person that needs this memorable experience? And what is that memorable experience going to look like? And I'm going to need my data, but I'm also going to need the data of other actors in that ecosystem. And then I'm going to have to build that ecosystem really quickly to take advantage of the system. So this throws a monkey rage in traditional ideas of standardization. It throws a monkey rage in the idea that enterprise IT is about efficiency. If I may, I just want to come back to the AI because I think we're looking in the wrong places. Things like AI. And let me give you an example today, there are 2.2 million people working in call centers around the world. If we imagine that they work in three shifts, that means that anyone time there are 700,000 people on the phone to a customer, and that customer is calling that company because they're vested, they're calling them with advice. They're calling them with a question they're calling them with a complaint. It is the most important source of valuable data that any company has. And yet, what have we done with that? What we've done with that is we've attacked it with efficiency. So instead of saying, these are the most valuable sources of information, let's use AI to tag the sentiment in the recordings that we make with our most valuable stakeholders. And let's analyze them for trends, ideas things that needs to change. We don't do that. What we do is we're going to give every cool agent two minutes to get them off the phone. For God's sake, don't answer many important, difficult questions. Don't spend money talking to the customer, try to make them happy. So they get a score and say, they hire you at the end of the call, and then you're done. So where the AI automation needs to come in is not in improving your efficiency, but in mining value. And the real opportunity with AI is that Joe Pine says this. "If you are able to understand the customer, rather than interpret them, that is so valuable to the customer, that they will pay money for that". And I think that's where the whole focus needs to be in this new team in enterprise IT, and they're still in the business. >> That's a great observation. I think we can all relate to that in your call center example, or you've been a restaurant, and you're trying to turn the tables fast and get out of there. And it's the last time you ever go to that restaurant. And you're taking that notion of systems thinking and broadening it to ecosystems thinking. And you've said, ecosystems have a better chance of success when they're used to stage and experience for whether it's the employee for the brand. And of course the customer and the partners. >> That's it that's exactly it. So every technology leader should be asking themselves what contribution can I and my organization make to this movement, because the business understands the problem. They don't understand how to solve it, and we've chosen a different dialogue. So we've been talking a lot about what cloud can do and the functionality that cloud has and the potential that cloud has. And those are all good things, but it really comes together. Now when we work together and we as the technology group brings in the know how we know how to connect quickly through the public cloud, we know how to do that in a secure way. We know how to manage data liquidity at scale, and we can stand these things up through our new learning of agile and DevOps. We can stand these ecosystems up fairly quickly. Now there's still a whole bunch of culture between different businesses that have to work together. The idea that I have to protect my data rather than serve the customer. But once you get past that, there's a whole new conversation enterprise IT can have, that I think gives them a new lease of life, new value. And I just think it's a really really exciting time. >> (inaudible) The intersection of a lot of different things. You talk about cloud as an enabler for sure. And that's great. We can talk about that, but you've got this. What you were referring to before is maybe you're in a niche market, but you have your marketplace. And like you're saying, you can actually use that through an ecosystem to really leave a much, much broader available market. And then vector that into the experience economy. We talk about subscriptions, the API economy, that really is new thinking. >> It is and I think what you're seeing here it's not radical in as much as all of these ideas have been around. Some of them have been around since the nineties, but what's radical is the way in which we can now mix and match these technologies to make this happen. That's growing so quickly. And I would argue to you and I've argued this before. Scale, scale as a concept within an organization is dead. It doesn't give you enough value. It gives you enough efficiency and it gives you a cloud. And it doesn't give you the opportunity to target the niche experiences that you need to do. So if we start to think of an organization as a combination of known and unknown potential ecosystems, you start to build a different operating model, a different architectural idea. You start to look outside more than you start to look inside. Which is why the cultural change that we were talking about just now goes hand in hand with this because people have to be comfortable thinking in ecosystems that may not yet exist and partnering with people where they bring to the table. There 20, 30 years of experience in a new and different way. >> So let me make sure I understand that. So you basically, if I understand it, you're saying that if your sort of end goal is scale and efficiency at scale you're going to have a vanilla solution for your customers in your ecosystem. Whereas if you will allow this outside in thinking to come in, you're going to be able to actually customize those experience, experiences and get the value of scale and efficiency. >> Right, so I mean Rory Sutherland, who is a big thinker in the marketing world has always said, "ultimately scale standardization and best practice lead to mediocrity". Because you are not focused on the most important thing for your employee or your brand. You're focused on the efficiency factors and they create very little value. In fact we know that they subvert value. So yes we need to have a very big mindset change. >> Yeah you're a top line thinker Alan and always at the forefront. I really appreciate you coming on to the cube and participate in this program. Give us a last word. So if you're a change agent, I'm an organization and I want to inject this type of change. Where do I start? >> Well I think it starts by identifying. Are we going to work on the employee experience? Do we feel that we have a model where the employees that are on stage with customers are so important that the focus has to be employees. We go down that route and then we look at what's happened to the pandemic. What type of experiences are we going to bring to those employees around their ability to have flow in their work, to get return on energy, to excite the customers? Let's do that. Let's figure out what experience are we driving now? And what does that experience need to be? If we're the customer side. As I said let's look at all the sources of information that we already have. I know companies that spend hundreds of millions a year trying to figure out what consumers want. And yet if we look in their call sentences, you will call up and they will say to you, your call may be recorded for quality purposes and training. And it's not true, less than 10% of those calls are ever listened to. And if they listened to, it's compliance, that's driving that, not the burning desire to better understand the consumer. So if we change that, then we shall get to. What can we change? What is the experience we are now able to stage with all we know and with all we can do. And let's start there, let's start with, what is the experience you want to stage? What's the experience landscape look like now? And who do we bring together to make that happen? >> Alan fantastic. Having you back in the cube, it's always a pleasure and thanks so much for participating. >> Thank you, Dave. It's always a pleasure to speak with you. >> And thank you everybody. This is Dave Vellante the cube on cloud. We'll be right back right after this short break, stay with us. (soft music)

>> Narrator: At the DataWorks Summit, Europe 2017. Brought to you by Hortonworks. >> Hey, welcome back everyone. We're here live from Munich, Germany at DataWorks 2017, Hadoop Summit formerly, the conference name before it changed to DataWorks. I'm John Furrier with my cohost Dave Vellante. Our next guest, we're excited to have Alan Nance who flew in, just for the CUBE interview today. Executive Vice President with Virtual Clarity. Former star, I call practitioner of the Cloud, knows the Cloud business. Knows the operational aspects of how to use technology. Alan, it's great to see you. Thanks for coming on the CUBE. >> Thank you for having me again. >> Great to see you, you were in the US recently, we had a chance to catch up. And one of the motivations that we talked with you today was, a little bit about some of the things you're looking at, that are transformative. Before we do that, let's talk a little about your history. And what your role is at Virtual Clarity. >> So, as you guys have, basically, followed that career, I started out in the transformation time with ING Bank. And started out, basically, technology upwards. Looking at converged infrastructure, converged infrastructure into VDI. When you've got that, you start to look at Clouds. Then you start to experiment with Clouds. And I moved from ING, from earlier experimentation, into Phillips. So, while Phillips, at that time had both the health care and lighting group. And then you start to look at consumption based Cloud propositions. And you remember the big thing that we were doing at that time, when we identified that 80% of the IT spend was non differentiating. So the thing was, how do we get away from almost a 900 million a year spend on legacy? How do we turn that into something that's productive for the Enterprise? So we spent a lot of time creating the consumption based infrastructure operating platform. A lot of things we had to learn. Because let's be honest, Amazon was still trying to become the behemoth it is now. IBM still didn't get the transition, HP didn't get it. So there was a lot of experimentation on which of the operating model-- >> You're the first mover on the operating model, The Cloud, that has scaled to it. And really differentiated services for your business, for also, cost reductions. >> Cost reductions have been phenomenal. And we're talking about halving the budget over a three year period. We're talking about 500 million a year savings. So these are big, big savings. The thing I feel we still need to tackle, is that when we re-platform your business, it should leave to agile acceleration of your growth path. And I think that's something that we still haven't conquered. So I think we're getting better and better at using platforms to save money, to suppress the expenditure. What we now need to do is to convert that into growth platform business. >> So, how about the data component? Because you were CIO of infrastructure at Phillips. But lately, you've been really spending a lot of time thinking about the data, how data adds value. So talk about your data journey. >> Well if I look at the data journey, the journey started for me, with, basically, a meeting with Tom Ritz in 2013. And he came with a very, very simple proposition. "You guys need to learn how to create "and store, and reason over data, "for the benefit of the Enterprise." And I think, "Well that's cool." Because up until that point, nobody had really been talking about data. Everyone was talking about the underlying technologies of the Cloud, but not really of the data element. And then we had a session with JP Rangaswami, who was at Salesforce, who basically, also said, "Well don't just think "about data lakes, but think also "about data streams and data rivers. "Because the other thing that's "going to happen here is that data's "not going to be stagnant in a company like yours." So we took that, and what happened, I think, in Phillips, which I think you see in a lot of companies, is an explosion across the Enterprise. So you've got people in social doing stuff. You got CDO's appearing. You've got the IOT. You've got the old, legacy systems, the systems of record. And so you end up with this enormous fragmentation of data. And with that you get a Wild West of what I call data stewardship. So you have a CDO who says, "Well I'm in charge of data." And you got a CMO who says, "Well I'm in charge of marketing data." Or you've got a CSO, says, "Yeah, "but I'm the security data guy." And there's no coherence, in terms of moving the Enterprise forward. Because everybody's focused on their own functionality around that data and not connecting it. So where are we now? I think right now we have a huge proliferation of data that's not connected, in many organizations. And I think we're going to hybrid but I don't think that's a future proof thing for most organizations. >> John: What do you mean by that? >> Well, if I look at what a lot of those suppliers are saying, they're really saying, "The solution "that you need, is to have a hybrid solution "between the public Cloud and your own Cloud." I thought, "But that's not the problem "that we need to solve." The problem that we need to solve is first of all, data gravity. So if I look at all the transformations that are running into trouble, what do they forget? When we go out and do IOT, when we go out and do social media analysis, it all has to flow back into those legacy systems. And those legacy systems are all going to be in the old world. And so you get latency issues, you get formatting issues. And so, we have to solve the data gravity issue. And we have to also solve this proliferation of stewardship. Somebody has to be in charge of making this work. And it's not going to be, just putting in a hybrid solution. Because that won't change the operating model. >> So let me ask the question, because on one of the things you're kind of dancing around, Dave brought up the data question. Something that I see as a problem in the industry, that hasn't yet been solved, and I'm just going to throw it out there. The CIO has always been the guy managing IT. And then he would report to the CFO, get the budget, blah, blah, blah. We know that's kind of played out its course. But there's no operational playbook to take the Cloud, mobile data at scale, that's going to drive the transformative impact. And I think there's some people doing stuff here and there, pockets. And maybe there's some organizations that have a cadence of managers, that are doing compliance, security, blah, blah, blah. But you have a vision on this. And some information that you're tracking around. An architecture that would bring it to scale. Could you share your thoughts on this operational model of Cloud, at a management level? >> Well, part of this is also based on your own analyst, Peter Boris. When he says, "The problem with data "is that its value is inverse to its half life." So, what the Enterprise has to do is it has to get to analyzing and making this data valuable, much, much faster then it is right now. And Chris Sellender of Unifi recently said, "You know, the problem's not big data. "The problem's fast data." So, now, who is best positioned in the organization to do this? And I believe it's the COO. >> John: Chief Operating Officer? >> Chief Operating Officer. I don't think it's going to be the CIO. Because I'm trying to figure out who's got the problem. Who's got the problem of connecting the dots to improving the operation of the company? Who is in charge of actually creating an operating platform that the business can feed off of? It's the C Tower. >> John: Why not the CFO? >> No, I think the CFO is going to be a diminishing value, over time. Because a couple of reasons. First of all, we see it in Phillips. There's always going to be a fiduciary role for the CFO. But we're out of the world of capex. We're out of the world of balancing assets. Everything is now virtual. So really, the value of a CFO, as sitting on the tee, if I use the racquetball, the CFO standing on the tee is not going to bring value to the Enterprise. >> And the CIO doesn't have the business juice, is your argument? Is that right? >> It depends on the CIO. There are some CIO's out there-- >> Dave: But in general, we're generalizing. >> Generally not. Because they've come through the ranks of building applications, which now has to be thrown away. They've come through the ranks of technology, which is now less relevant. And they've come through the ranks of having huge budgets and huge people to deploy certain projects. All of that's going away. And so what are you left with? Now you're left with somebody who absolutely has to understand how to communicate with the business. And that's what they haven't done for 30 years. >> John: And stream line business process. >> Well, at least get involved in the conversation. At least get involved in the conversation. Now if I talk to business people today, and you probably do too, most of them will still say there's this huge communication gulf. Between what we're trying to achieve and what the technology people are doing with our goals. I mean, I was talking to somebody the other day. And this lady heads up the sales for a global financial institution. She's sitting on the business side of this. And she's like, "The conversation should be "about, if our company wants to improve "our cost income ratio, and they ask me, "as sales to do it, I have to sell 10 times "more to make a difference. "Then if IT would save money. "So for every Euro they save. "And give me an agile platform, "is straight to the bottom line. "Every time I sell, because of our "cost income ratio, I just can't sell against that. "But I can't find on the IT side, "anybody who, sort of, gets my problem. "And is trying to help me with it." And then you look at her and what? You think a hybrid solution's going to help her? (laughs) I have no idea what you're talking about. >> Right, so the business person here then says, "I don't really care where it runs." But to your point, you care about the operational model? >> Alan: Absolutely. >> And that's really what Cloud should be, right? >> I think everybody who's going to achieve anything from an investment in Cloud, will achieve it in the operating world. They won't just achieve it on the cost savings side. Or on making costs more transparent, or more commoditized. Where it has to happen is in the operating model. In fact, we actually have data of a very large, transportation, logistics company, who moved everything that they had, in an attempt to be in a zero Cloud. And on the benchmark, saved zero. And they saved zero because they weren't changing the operating model. So they were still-- >> They lifted and shifted, but didn't change the operational mindset. >> Not at all. >> But there could have been business value there. Maybe things went faster? >> There could have been. >> Maybe simpler? >> But I'm not seeing it. >> Not game changing. >> Not game changing, certainly yes. >> Not as meaningful, it was a stretch. >> Give an example of a game changing scenario. >> Well for me, and I think this is the next most exciting thing. Is this idea of platforms. There's been an early adoption of this in Telco. Where we've seen people coming in and saying, "If you stock all of this IT, as we've known it, "and you leverage the ideas of Cloud computing, "to have scalable, invisible, infrastructure. "And you put a single platform on top of it "to run your business, you can save money." Now, I've seen business cases where people who are about to embark on this program are taking a billion a year out of their cost base. And in this company, it's 1/7th of their total profit. That's a game changer, for me. But now, who's going to help them do that? Who's going to help them-- >> What's the platform look like? >> And a million's a lot of money. >> Let's go, grab a sheet of paper how we-- >> So not everybody will even have a billion-- >> But that gets the attention of certainly, the CEO, the COO, CFO says, "Tell me more." >> You're alluding to it, Dave. You need to build a layer to punch, to doing that. So you need to fix the data stewardship problem. You have to create the invisible infrastructure that enables that platform. And you have to have a platform player who is prepared to disrupt the industry. And for me-- >> Dave: A Cloud player. >> A Cloud player, I think it's a born in the Cloud player. I think, you know, we've talked about it privately. >> So who are the forces to attract? You got Microsoft, you got AWS, Google, maybe IBM, maybe Oracle. >> See, I think it's Google. >> Dave: Why, why do you think it's Google? >> I think it's because, the platforms that I'm thinking of, and if I look in retail, if I look in financial services, it's all about data. Because that's the battle, right. We all agree, the battle's on data. So it's got to be somebody who understands data at scale, understands search at scale, understands deep learning at scale. And understands technology enough to build that platform and make it available in a consumption model. And for me, Google would be the ideal player, if they would make that step. Amazon's going to have a different problem because their strategy's not going down that route. And I think, for people like IBM or Oracle, it would require cannibalizing too much of their existing business. But they may dally with it. And they may do it in a territory where they have no install base. But they're not going to be disrupting the industry. I just don't think it's going to be possible for them. >> And you think Google has the Enterprise chops to pull it off? >> I think Google has the platform. I would agree with Alan on this. Something, I've been very critical on Google. Dave brings this up because he wants me to say it now, and I will. Google is well positioned to be the platform. I am very bullish on Google Cloud with respect to their ability to moon shot or slingshot to the future faster, than, potentially others. Or as they say in football, move the goal posts and change the game. That being said, where I've been critical of Google, and this is where, I'll be critical, is their dogma is very academic, very, "We're the technology leader, "therefore you should use Google G Suite." I think that they have to change their mindset, to be more Enterprise focused, in the sense of understand not the best product will always win, but the B chip they have to develop, have to think about the Enterprise. And that's a lot of white glove service. That's a lot of listening. That's not being too arrogant. I mean, there's a borderline between confidence and arrogance. And I think Google crosses it a little bit too much, Dave. And I think that's where Google recognizes, some people in Google recognize that they don't have the Enterprise track record, for sure on the sales side. You could add 1,000 sales reps tomorrow but do they have experience? So there's a huge translation issue going on between Google's capability and potential energy. And then the reality of them translating that into an operational footprint. So for them to meet the mark of folks like you, you can't be speaking Russian and English. You got to speak the same language. So, the language barrier, so to speak, the linguistics is different. That's my only point. >> I sense in your statements, there's a frustration here. Because we know that the key to some really innovative, disruption is with Google. And I think what we'd all like to do, even while I was addressing the camera. I'd love to see Diane, who does understand Enterprise, who's built a whole career servicing Enterprises extremely well, I'd like to see a little bit of a glimpse of, "We are up for this." And I understand when you're part of the bigger Google, the numbers are a little bit skewered against you to make a big impact and carry the firm with you. But I do believe there's an enormous opportunity in the Enterprise space. And people are just waiting for this. >> Well Diane Greene knows the Enterprise. So she came in, she's got to change the culture. And I know she's doing it. Because I have folks at Google, that I know that work there, that tell me privately, that it's happening, maybe not fast enough. But here's the thing. If you walked in the front door at Google, Alan Nance, this is my point, and he said, "I have experience and I have a plan "to build a platform, to knock a billion "dollars off seven companies, that I know, personally. "That I can walk in and win. "And move a billion dollars to their "bottom line with your platform." They might not understand what that means. >> I don't know, you know I was at Google Next a few weeks ago, last month. And I thought they were more, to your point, open to listening. Maybe not as arrogant as you might be presenting. And somewhat more humble. Still pretty ballsy. But I think Google recognizes that it needs help in the Enterprise. And here's why. Something that we've talked about in the past, is, you've got top down initiatives. You've got bottom up initiatives. And you've got middle out. What frequently happens, and I'd love for you to describe your experiences. The leaders say, the top CXO's say, "Okay we're going." And they take off and the organization doesn't follow them. If it's bottoms up, you don't have the top down in premature. So how do you address that? What are you seeing and how do you address that problem? >> So I think that's a really, really good observation. I mean, what I see in a lot of the big transformations that I've been involved in, is that speed is of the essence. And I think when CEO's, because usually it's the CEO. CEO comes in and they think they've got more time than they actually have to make the impact in the Enterprise. And it doesn't matter if they're coming in from the outside or they've grown up. They always underestimate their ability to do change, in time. And now what's changed over the past few years, is the average tenure of a CEO is six years. You know, I mean, Jack Welch was 20 years at GE. You can do a lot of damage in 20 years. And he did a lot of great things at GE over a 20 year period. You've only got six years now. And what I see in these big transformation programs is they start with a really good vision. I mean Mackenzie, Bain, Boston. They know the essence of what needs to happen. >> Dave: They can sell the dream. >> They can sell the dream. And the CEO sort of buys into it. And then immediately you get into the first layer, "Okay, okay, so we've got to change the organization." And so you bring in a lot of these companies that will run 13 work streams over three years, with hundreds of people. And at the end of that time, you're almost halfway through your tenure. And all you've got is a new design. Or a new set of job descriptions or strategies. You haven't actually achieved anything. And then the layer down is going to run into real problems. One of the problems that we had at the company I worked at before, was in order to support these platforms you needed really good master data management. And we suddenly realized that. And so we had to really put in an accelerated program to achieve that, with Impatica. We did it, but it cost us a year and 1/2. At a bank I know, they can't move forward because they're looking at 700 million of technology debt, they can't get past. So they end up going down a route of, "Maybe one of these big suppliers "can buy our old stuff. "And we can tag on some transformational "deal at the back end of that." None of those are working. And then what happens is, in my mind, if the CEO, from what I see, has not achieved escape velocity at the end of year three. So he's showing the growth, or she's showing the digital transformation, it's kind of game over. The Enterprise has already figured out they've stalled it long enough, not intentionally. And then we go back into an austerity program. Because you got to justify the millions you've spent in the last three years. And you've got nothing to show for it. >> And you're preparing three envelopes. >> So you got to accelerate those layers. You got to take layers out and you've got to have a really, I would say almost like, 90 day iteration plans that show business outcomes. >> But the technology layer, you can put in an abstraction layer, use APIs and infrastructure as code, all that cool stuff. But you're saying it's the organizational challenges. >> I think that's the real problem. It is the real problem, is the organization. And also, because what you're really doing in terms of the Enterprise, is you're moving from a more traditional supply chain that you own. And you've matriculated with SAP or with Oracle. Now you're talking about creating a digital value chain. A digital value chain that's much more based on a more mobile ecosystem, where you would have thin text in one area or insurance text, that have to now fit into an agile supply chain. It's all about the operating model. If you don't have people who know how to drive that, the technology's not going to help you. So you've got to have people on the business side and the technology side coming together to make this work. >> Alan, I have a question for you. What's you're prediction, okay, knowing what you know. And kind of, obviously, you have some frustrations in platforms with trying to get the big players to listen. And I think they should listen to you. But this is going to happen. So I would believe that what you're saying with the COO, operational things radically changing differently. Obviously, the signs are all there. Data centers are moving into the Cloud. I mean this is radical stuff, in a good way. And so, what's your prediction for how this plays out vis a vis Amazon Web Services, Google Cloud Platform Azure, IBM Cloud SoftLayer. >> Well here's my concern a little bit. I think if Google enters the fray I think everybody will reconfigure. Because if we'd assume that Google plays to its strengths and goes out there and finds the right partners. It's going to reconfigure the industry. If they don't do that, then what the industry's going to do is what it's done. Which means that the platforms are going to be hybrid platforms that are dominated by the traditional players. By the SOPs, by the Oracles, by the IBMs. And what I fear is that there may actually be a disillusionment. Because they will not bring the digital transformation and all the wonderful things that we all know, are out there to be gained. So you may get, "We've invested all this money." You see it a little bit with big data. "I've got this huge layer. "I've got petabytes. "Why am I not smarter? "Why is my business not going so much better? "I've put everything in there." I think we've got to address the operating problem. And we have to find a dialogue at the C Suite. >> Well to your point, and we talked about this. You know, you look at the core of Enterprise apps, the Oracle stuff is not moving in droves, to the Cloud. Oracle's freezing the market right now. Betting that it can get there before the industry gets there. And if it does-- >> Alan: It's not. >> And it might, but if it does, it's not going to be that radical transformation you're prescribing. >> They have too much to lose. Let's be honest, right. So Oracle is a victim of it's own success, pretty much like SAP. It has to go to the Cloud as a defensive play. Because the last thing either of those want is to be disintermediated by Amazon. Which may or may not happen anyway. Because a lot of companies will disintermediate if they can. Because the licensing is such a painful element for most enterprises, when they deal with these companies. So they have to believe that the platform is not going to look like that. >> And they're still trying to figure out the pricing models, and the margin models, and Amazon's clearly-- >> You know what's driving the pricing models is not the growth on the consumer side. >> Right, absolutely. >> That's not what's driving it. So I think we need another player. I really think we need another player. If it's not Google, somebody else. I can't think who would have the scale, the money to-- >> The only guys who have the scale, you got 10 cents, maybe a couple China Clouds, maybe one Japan Cloud and that's it. >> To be honest, you raise a good point. I haven't really looked at the Ali Baba's and the other people like that who may pick up that mantle. I haven't looked at them. Ali Baba's interesting, because just like Amazon, they have their own business that runs on platforms. And a very diverse business, which is growing faster than Amazon and is more profitable than Amazon. So they could be interesting. But I'm still hopeful. We should figure this out. >> Google should figure it out. You're absolutely right. They're investing, and I thought they put forth a pretty good messaging at the Google Next. You covered it remotely but I think they understand the opportunity. And I think they have the stomach for it. >> We had reporters there as well, at the event. We just did, they came to our studio. Google is self aware that they need to work on the Enterprise. I think the bigger thing that you're highlighting is the operational model is shifting to a scale point where it's going to change stewardship and COO meaning to be, I like that. The other thing I want to get your reaction to is something I heard this morning, on the CUBE from Sean Connelly. Which that goes with some of the things that we're seeing where you're seeing Cloud becoming a more centralized view. Where IOT is an Edge case. So you have now, issues around architectural things. Your thoughts and reaction to this balance between Edge and Cloud. >> Well I think this is where you're also going to have your data gravity challenge. So, Dave McCrory has written a lot about the concept of data gravity. And in my mind, too many people in the Enterprise don't understand it. Which is basically, that data attracts more data. And more data you have, it'll attract more. And then you create all these latency issues when you start going out to the Edge. Because when we first went out to the Edge I think, even at Phillips, we didn't realize how much interaction needed to come back. And that's going to vary from company to company. So some company's are going to want to have that data really quickly because they need to react to it immediately. Others may not have that. But what you do have is you have this balancing act. About, "What do I keep central? "And what do I put at the Edge?" I think Edge Technology is amazing. And when we first looked at it, four years ago, I mean, it's come such a long way. And what I am encouraged by is that, that data layer, so the layer that Sean talks about, there's a lot of exciting things happening. But again, my problem is what's the Enterprise going to do with that? Because it requires a different operating model. If I take an example of a manufacturing company, I know a manufacturing company right now that does work in China. And it takes all the data back to its central mainframes for processing. Well if you've got the Edge, you want to be changing the way you process. Which means that the decision makers on the business need to be insitu. They need to be in China. And we need to be bringing, systems of record data and combining it with local social data and age data, so we get better decisions. So we can drive growth in those areas. If I just enable it with technology but don't change the business model the business is not going to grow. >> So Alan, we always loved having you on. Great practitioner, but now you've kind of gone over to the dark side. We've heard of a company called Virtual Clarity. Tell us about what you're doing there. >> So what we're vested in, what I am very much vested in, with my team at Virtual Clarity, is creating this concept of precision guided transformation. Where you work on the business, on what are the outcomes we really need to get from this? And then we've combined, I would say it's like a data nerve center. So we can quickly analyze, within a matter of weeks, where we are with the company, and what routes to value we can create. And then we'll go and do it. So we do it in 90 day increments. So the business now starts to believe that something's really going to happen. None of these big, insert miracle here after three year programs. But actually going out and doing it. The second thing that I think that we're doing that I'm excited about is bringing in enlightened people who represent the Enterprise. So, one of my colleagues, former COO of Unilever, we just brought on a very smart lady, Dessa Grassa, who was the CDO at JP Morgan Chase. And the idea is to combine the insights that we have on the demand side, the buy side, with the insights that we have on the technology side to create better operating models. So that combination of creating a new view that is acceptable to the C Suite. Because these people understand how you talk to them. But at the same time, runs on this concept of doing everything quickly. That's what we're about right now. >> That's awesome, we should get you hooked up with our new analyst we just hired, James Corbelius, from IBM. Was focusing on exactly that. The intersections of developers, Cloud, AI machine learning and data, all coming together. And IOT is going to be a key application that we're going to see coming out of that. So, congratulations. Alan thank you for spending the time to come in. >> Thanks for allowing me. >> To see us in the CUBE. It's the CUBE, bringing you more action. Here from DataWorks 2017. I'm John Furrier with my cohost Dave Vallante, here on the CUBE, SiliconANGLE Media's flagship program. Where we've got the events, straight from SiliconANGLE. Stay with us for more great coverage. Day one of two days of coverage at DataWorks 2017. We'll be right back.

(upbeat music) >> Welcome back to the Javits in the big apple, New York City. This is theCUBE's coverage of MongoDB World 2022. We're here for a full day of coverage. We're talking to customers, partners, executives and analysts as well. Peder Ulander is here. He's the Chief Marketing Officer of MongoDB and he's joined by Radhika Krishnan, who's the Chief Product Officer at Hitachi Ventara. Folks, welcome back to theCUBE. Great to see you both again. >> Good to see you. >> Thank you David, it's good to be back again. >> Peder, first time since 2019, we've been doing a lot of these conferences and many of them, it's the first time people have been out in a physical event in three years. Amazing. >> I mean, after three years to come back here in our hometown of New York and get together with a few thousand of our favorite customers, partners, analysts, and such, to have real good discussions around where we're taking the world with regards to our developer data platform. It's been great. >> I think a big part of that story of course, is ecosystem and partnerships and Radhika, I remember I was at an event when Hitachi announced its strategy and it's name change, and really tried to understand why and the what's behind that. And of course, Hitachi's a company that looks out over the long term, and of course it has to perform tactically, but it thinks about the future. So give us the update on what's new at Hitachi Ventara, especially as it relates to data. >> Sure thing, Dave. As many, many folks might be aware, there's a very strong heritage that Hitachi has had in the data space, right. By virtue of our products and our presence in the data storage market, which dates back to many decades, right? And then on the industrial side, the parent company Hitachi has been heavily focused on the OT sector. And as you know, there is a pretty significant digital transformation underway in the OT arena, which is all being led by data. So if you look at our mission statement, for instance, it's actually engineering the data driven because we do believe that data is the fundamental platform that's going to drive that digital transformation, irrespective of what industry you're in. >> So one of the themes that you guys both talk about is modernization. I mean, you can take a cloud, I remember Alan Nance, who was at the time, he was a CIO at Philips, he said, look, you could take a cloud workload, or on-prem workload, stick it into the cloud and lift it and shift it. And in your case, you could just put it on, run it on an RDBMS, but you're not going to affect the operational models. >> Peder Ulander: It's just your mess for less, man. >> If you do that. >> It's your mess, for less. >> And so, he goes, you'll get a few, you know, you'll get a couple of zeros out of that. But if you want to have, in his case, billion dollar impact to the business, you have to modernize. So what does modernize mean to each of you? >> Maybe Peder, you can start. >> Yeah, no, I'm happy to start. I think it comes down to what's going on in the industry. I mean, we are truly moving from a world of data centers to centers of data, and these centers of data are happening further and further out along the network, all the way down to the edges. And if you look at the transformation of infrastructure or software that has enabled us to get there, we've seen apps go from monoliths to microservices. We've seen compute go from physical to serverless. We've seen networking go from old wireline copper to high powered 5G networks. They've all transformed. What's the one layer that hasn't completely transformed yet, data, right? So if we do see this world where things are getting further and further out, you've got to rethink your data architecture and how you basically support this move to modernization. And we feel that MongoDB with our partners, especially with Hitachi, we're best suited to really kind of help with this transition for our customers as they move from data centers to centers of data. >> So architecture. And at the failure, I will say this and you tell me if you agree or not. A lot of the failures of sort of the big data architectures of today are there's, everything's in this monolithic database, you've got to go through a series of hyper-specialized professionals to get to the data. If you're a business individual, you're so frustrated because the market's changing faster than you can get answers. So you guys, I know, use this concept of data fabric, people talk about data mesh. So how do you think, Radhika, about modernization in the future of data, which by its very nature is distributed? >> Yeah. So Dave, everybody talks about the hybrid cloud, right? And so the reality is, every one of our customers is having to deal with data that's straddled across on-prem as well as the public cloud and many other places as well. And so it becomes incredibly important that you have a fairly seamless framework, that's relatively low friction, that allows you to go from the capture of the data, which could be happening at the edge, could be happening at the core, any number of places, all the way to publish, right. Which is ultimately what you want to do with data because data exists to deliver insights, right? And therefore you dramatically want to minimize the friction in the process. And that is exactly what we're attempting to do with our data fabric construct, right. We're essentially saying, customers don't have to worry about, like you mentioned, they may have federated data structures, architectures, data lakes, fitting in multiple locations. How do you ensure that you're not having to double up custom code in order to drive the pipelines, in order to drive the data movement from one location to the other and so forth. And so essentially what we're providing is a mechanism whereby they can be confident about the quality of the data at the end of the day. And this is so paramount. Every customer that I talk to is most worried about ensuring that they have data that is trustworthy. >> So this is a really important point because I've always felt like, from a data quality standpoint, you know you get the data engineers who might not have any business context, trying to figure out the quality problem. If you can put the data responsibility in the hands of the business owner, who, he or she, has context, that maybe starts to solve this problem. There's some buts though. So infrastructure becomes an operational detail. Let's hide that. Don't worry about it. Figure it out, okay, so the business can run, but you need self-service infrastructure and you have to figure out how to have federated governance so that the right people can have access. So how do you guys think about that problem in the future? 'Cause it's almost like this vision creates those two challenges. Oh, by the way, you got to get your organization behind it. Right, 'cause there's an organizational construct as well. But those are, to me, wonderful opportunities but they create technology challenges. So how are you guys thinking about that and how are you working on it? >> Yeah, no, that's exactly right, Dave. As we talk to data practitioners, the recurring theme that we keep hearing is, there is just a lot of use cases that require you to have deep understanding of data and require you to have that background in data sciences and so on, such as data governance and vary for their use cases. But ultimately, the reason that data exists is to be able to drive those insights for the end customer, for the domain expert, for the end user. And therefore it becomes incredibly important that we be able to bridge that chasm that exists today between the data universe and the end customer. And that is what we essentially are focused on by virtue of leaning into capabilities like publishing, right? Like self, ad hoc reporting and things that allow citizen data scientists to be able to take advantage of the plethora of data that exists. >> Peder, I'm interested in this notion of IT and OT. Of course, Hitachi is a partner, established in both. Talk about Mongo's position in thinking. 'Cause you've got on-prem customers, you're running now across all clouds. I call it super cloud connecting all these things. But part of that is the edge. Is Mongo running there? Can Mongo run there, sort of a lightweight version? How do you see that evolve? Give us some details there. >> So I think first and foremost, we were born on-prem, obviously with the origins of MongoDB, a little over five years ago, we introduced Atlas and today we run across a hundred different availability zones around the globe, so we're pretty well covered there. The third bit that I think people miss is we also picked up a product called Realm. Realm is an embedded database for mobile devices. So if you think about car companies, Toyota, for example, building connected cars, they'll have Realm in the car for the telemetry, connects back into an Atlas system for the bigger operational side of things. So there's this seamless kind of, or consistency that runs between data center to cloud to edge to device, that MongoDB plays across all the way through. And then taking that to the next level. We talked about this before we sat down, we're also building in the security elements of that because obviously you not only have that data in rest and data in motion, but what happens when you have that data in use? And announced, I think today? We purchased a little company, Aroki, experts in encryption, some of the smartest security minds on the planet. And today we introduce query-able encryption, which basically enables developers, without any security background, to be able to build searchable capabilities into their applications to access data and do it in a way where the security rules and the privacy all remain constant, regardless of whether that developer or the end user actually knows how that works. >> This is a great example of people talk about shift left, designing security in, for the developer, right from the start, not as a bolt-on. It's a great example. >> And I'm actually going to ground that with a real life customer example, if that's okay, Dave. We actually have a utility company in North Carolina that's responsible for energy and water. And so you can imagine, I mean, you alluded to the IO to use case, the industrial use case and this particular customer has to contend with millions of sensors that are constantly streaming data back, right. And now think about the challenge that they were encountering. They had all this data streaming in and in large quantities and they were actually resident on numerous databases, right. And so they had this very real challenge of getting to that quality data that I, data quality that I talked about earlier, as well, they had this challenge of being able to consolidate all of it and make sense of it. And so that's where our partnership with MongoDB really paid off where we were able to leverage Pentaho to integrate all of the data, have that be resident on MongoDB. And now they're leveraging some of the data capabilities, the data fabric capabilities that we bring to the table to actually deliver meaningful insights to their customers. Now their customers are actually able to save on their electricity and water bills. So great success story right there. >> So I love the business impact there, and also you mentioned Pentaho, I remember that acquisition was transformative for Hitachi because it was the beginning of sort of your new vector, which became Hitachi Ventara. What is Lumada? That's, I presume the evolution of Pentaho? You brought in organic, and added capabilities on top of that, bringing in your knowledge of IOT and OT? Explain what Lumada is. >> Yeah, no, that's a great question, Dave. And I'll say this, I mentioned this early on, we fundamentally believe that data is the backbone for all digital transformation. And so to that end, Hitachi has actually been making a series of acquisitions as well as investing organically to build up these data capabilities. And so Pentaho, as you know, gives us some of that front-end capability in terms of integrations and so forth. And the Lumada platform, the umbrella brand name is really connoting everything that we do in the data space that allow customers to go through that, to derive those meaningful insights. Lumada literally stands for illuminating data. And so that's exactly what we do. Irrespective of what vertical, what use case we're talking about. As you know very well, Hitachi is very prominent in just about every vertical. We're in like 90% of the Fortune 500 customers across banking and financial, retail, telecom. And as you know very well, very, very strong in the industrial space as well. >> You know, it's interesting, Peder, you and Radhika were both talking about this sort of edge model. And so if I understand it correctly, and maybe you could bring in sort of the IOT requirements as well. You think about AI, most of the AI that's done today is modeling in the cloud. But in the future and as we're seeing this, it's real-time inferencing at the edge and it's massive amounts of data. But you're probably not, you're going to persist some, I'm hearing, probably not going to persist all of it, some of it's going to be throwaway. And then you're going to send some back to the cloud. I think of EVs or, a deer runs in front of the vehicle and they capture that, okay, send that back. The amounts of data is just massive. Is that the right way to think about this new model? Is that going to require new architectures and hearing that Mongo fits in. >> Yeah. >> Beautifully with that. >> So this is a little bit what we talked about earlier, where historically there have been three silos of data. Whether it's classic system of record, system of engagement or system of intelligence and they've each operated independently. But as applications are pushing in further and further to the edge and real time becomes more and more important, you need to be able to take all three types of workloads or models, data models and actually incorporate it into a single platform. That's the vision we have behind our developer data platform. And it enables us to handle those transactional, operational and analytical workloads in real time, right. One of the things that we announced here this week was our columnar indexing, which enables some of that step into the analytics so that we can actually do in-app analytics for those things that are not going back into the data warehouse or not going back into the cloud, real time happening with the application itself. >> As you add, this is interesting, as basically Mongo's becoming this all-in-one database, as you add those capabilities, are you able to preserve, it sounds like you've still focused on simplicity, developer product productivity. Are there trade off, as you add, does it detract from those things or are you able to architecturally preserve those? >> I think it comes down to how we're thinking through the use case and what's going to be important for the developers. So if you look at the model today, the legacy model was, let's put it all in one big monolith. We recognize that that doesn't work for everyone but the counter to that was this explosion of niche databases, right? You go to certain cloud providers, you get to choose between 15 different databases for whatever workload you want. Time series here, graph here, in-memory here. It becomes a big mess that is pushed back on the company to glue back together and figure out how to work within those systems. We're focused on really kind of embracing the document model. We obviously believe that's a great general purpose model for all types of workloads. And then focusing in on not taking a full search platform that's doing everything from log management all the way through in-app, we're optimizing for in-app experiences. We're optimizing analytics for in-app experiences. We're optimizing all of the different things we're doing for what the developer is trying to go accomplish. That helps us maintain consistency on the architectural design. It helps us maintain consistency in the model by which we're engaging with our customers. And I think it helps us innovate as quickly as we've been been able to innovate. >> Great, thank you. Radhika, we'll give you the last word. We're seeing this convergence of function in the data based, data models, but at the same time, we're seeing the distribution of data. We're not, you're clearly not fighting that, you're embracing that. What does the future look like from Hitachi Ventara's standpoint over the next half decade or even further out? >> So, we're trying to lean into what customers are trying to solve for, Dave. And so that fundamentally comes down to use cases and the approaches just may look dramatically different with every customer and every use case, right? And that's perfectly fine. We're leaning into those models, whether that is data refining on the edge or the core or the cloud. We're leaning into it. And our intent really is to ensure that we're providing that frictionless experience from end to end, right. And I'll give a couple of examples. We had this very large bank, one of the top 10 banks here in the US, that essentially had multiple data catalogs that they were using to essentially sort through their metadata and make sense of all of this data that was coming into their systems. And we were able to essentially, dramatically simplify it. Cut down on the amount of time that it takes to deliver insights to them, right. And it was like, the metric shared was 600% improvement. And so this is the kind of thing that we're manically focused on is, how do we deliver that quantifiable end-customer improvement, right? Whether it's in terms of shortening the amount to drive the insights, whether it's in terms of the number of data practitioners that they have to throw at a problem, the level of manual intervention that is required, so we're automating everything. We're trying to build in a lot of security as Peder talked about, that is a common goal for both sides. We're trying to address it through a combination of security solutions at varying ends of the spectrum. And then finally, as well, delivering that resiliency and scale that is required. Because again, the one thing we know for sure that we can take for granted is data is exploding, right? And so you need that scale, you need that resiliency. You need for customers to feel like there is high quality, it's not dirty, it's not dark and it's something that they can rely upon. >> Yeah, if it's not trusted, they're not going to use it. The interesting thing about the partnership, especially with Hitachi, is you're in so many different examples and use cases. You've got IT. You've got OT. You've got industrial and so many different examples. And if Mongo can truly fit into all those, it's just, the rocket ship's going to continue. Peder, Radhika, thank you so much for coming back in theCUBE, it's great to see you both. >> Thank you, appreciate it. >> Thank you, my pleasure. >> All right. Keep it right there. This is Dave Vellante from the Javits Center in New York City at MongoDB World 2022. We'll be right back. (upbeat music)

(upbeat music) >> We're back at VeamON 2022, at the Aria in Las Vegas. You're watching The Cube. My name is Dave Vellante, and I'm here with my co-host, David Nicholson. Danny Allan here is the Chief Technical Officer at Veeam. And he's joined by Ope Bakare who's the Chief Technical Officer at HBC Dave. One of the few companies that's older than my home. >> Unbelievable. >> Ope. >> That's right. >> Danny, great to see you. Thanks for coming on. It's true by the way. 1670, we're going to learn more about HBC. But I wonder, Danny, if you could set it up. The kind of topic of this discussion here is hybrid cloud, we've got a pretty interesting use case, give us the high level, what should we be focused on here? >> So lots of customers today focused on digital transformation and moving into the cloud, everyone talks about that, I can take my workload and move into the cloud. And one of the interesting things that we saw originally was, you know, I'll just lift it and move it over there. That's not necessarily the best model for the cloud. So you see people doing that. What I actually think is really interesting, and I know Ope has been very focused on is actually transforming the application so that works most effectively in the cloud model. >> So Ope, maybe give us the background on HBC, for folks who aren't familiar with the company and your role there. >> Sure, so HBC is 350, somewhat years old. It's the oldest corporation that's continually existed in North America. I have the privilege to serve as the chief technology officer there. And, you know, HBC is a company that has innovation kind of baked into its core DNA. We have to keep reinventing ourselves, otherwise, we get stagnant and we get left behind. Clearly, we're still around so--. >> So far so good. >> We must be doing something right. But kind of pivoting to what you were saying earlier, you know, our journey to the cloud was multifaceted. Some of it was to improve the pace of innovation, some of it was to improve on quality. So you know, we have typical data center technologies, and, you know, we had some of the typical issues you would have, right, so some older equipment, you know, failures, etc, etc. When you're in the cloud, a lot of that is just managed for you. Again, it's about what I talked about this morning, it's about moving your team up the value chain, towards creating value, right? So you start with the managing of core basic infrastructure, and you start consuming them as services. The interesting thing is, as you mentioned, for the vast majority of people, your first foray into the cloud, is pick up all those virtual machines that you had on-prem, and put them in the cloud. And that's great, you get, immediately you get a better, possibly a better or more available under a cloud platform there. But you're just barely scratching the surface. You don't really get into cloud until you start consuming cloud native services, until you go serverless, you go stateless with containers in Kubernetes, you can use platforms like, you know, Kafka for streaming your data, as opposed to, you know, constructing cumbersome, easy to break data pipelines and all that. So it's a very interesting pivot. And I think a lot of people sometimes struggle with going past that first step, they have the VMs, it's familiar to what they're used to. But for us, we had a digital transformation in the works. We were replatforming from a legacy platform, some of you may know, Blue Martini. But we were moving to a more modern, more flexible platform that was really suited to accelerate our omni channel strategy. Thank goodness we did because the pandemic came around and proved it exactly correct. >> Good timing. >> Yeah, so that's really what happened for us, that actually forced us forward in the cloud journey. >> So Alan Nance, who was at the time, he was like a CIO slash CTO at Philips. And he said to me, if you just lift and shift to the cloud, this is early days of cloud, he said, he's not going to change your operational model. The company, if you want to save billions, you got to change that operational model. But listening to what Ope just said, Danny, what does that mean, from your perspective, I mean, cloud native, and what does that do for your business? >> Well, cloud native,. The benefit of the cloud, of course, makes completely portable, and it's elastic, you can scale almost infinitely, and you don't have to build it. However, the hard part is not the technology. I always say the hard part is the process, you actually have to rewrite your applications to take advantage of all the things in the cloud. And that is not an easy thing. So what we're seeing a lot in the industry across our customer base, is when they have a greenfield opportunity, a new project, they always start in the cloud. We're not seeing a lot of, hey, am going to completely modernize my applications, because that's expensive. It's already built. And so customers will sometimes pick that up and move it to the cloud. And sometimes they'll actually move it back on premises, because the cost model isn't there. But I do think in the long term, if you're looking at four or five years, all the new applications will be designed for a cloud native experience. What that means is written in containers, with container orchestration, you know, seamlessly orchestrating the entire portfolio and data lifecycle. >> So Ope. >> Spot on. >> Translate that into what actually happened at HBC. So as Danny said, we're not going to just going to move everything into the cloud, we've got a hybrid setup, maybe some of the new stuff. What did you do? You have the, your back end systems, your database kind of protected that? How did you go about this omni channel journey? >> So, you know, for us, you know, by the way, that was completely spot on. You know, it's not a fallacy to really examine some cost, because we all have to, we'll have to live in the real world, right? We understand that there are budgets, and there are limits to what we can accomplish within a fiscal year. So you look at an application that's already built, that's already fulfilling the business purpose for which for which it was built. What's the value in immediately going and taking it all apart and containerizing it? If there is a small or easy lift, sure, it might be worth it. But if it's a major system that you have to rewrite, the ROI is just not there, right? So a lift and shift model in that scenario, kind of makes sense. But what you said earlier is exactly what we did. When we had an opportunity again, with the omni channel strategy, we're looking to strengthen our digital arm. And so we were moving from our legacy platform to this new one. And that required us to do a bunch of work. So we had to modernize some of our services, we had to change some of our data, our data process, how we stream data into and out of the e-commerce platform. And all of that actually provided sort of almost a groundswell of support for all of this transformative works. Apologies, for all this transformative work we had to do. So it totally made sense in that case, we actually were able to kill two birds with one stone, really transform and go cloud native, at the same time as deprecating a bunch of legacy technologies that to be perfectly frank didn't really have much of a place in the cloud. >> So many questions. I hope, go. >> Yeah, so it's interesting, because when you talk about that sort of journey to cloud that you're on, sometimes people will ask the question, well, how long before everything is in the cloud? And often the answer is, if you look at what's called the vanishing point, where the two sides of the highway come together, off in the distance, it's like, that's, that's when it'll happen. But as you get closer to that point, it gets further away. So if you had to categorize it in terms of a percentage of where you are now, and then an aspiration over time, how would you categorize that? >> So I have the pleasure of telling you that we are probably at about, I'd say 90% in the cloud? >> Oh, wow, okay. >> We were very aggressive about it. And frankly, I think, you know, first of all, I have the privilege to lead an amazing team. And they did everything possible to make this real. We had a goal, and it was focusing on our customers, being customer obsessed, really. And for us, data centers just didn't make sense in that world. So all we did was work towards how do we deprecate these legacy technologies? How do we consolidate and then move them to the cloud as quickly as possible? So for us 90%, and we're going even even further. Is that last 10% worth it, to go for that? I mean, you know, what's the, you know, you get to that marginal return? >> I really think the next 5% will be worth it, the last five we're not going to pursue and here's why. So think about, you know, we talked about really low latency things that need to be physically in the building. So we have a bunch of, we have a whole lot of fulfillment and distribution centers, right? Those, in some cases, we have automation equipment that really requires low latency connectivity to physical equipment. Moving that to the cloud, is not really a high value proposition. If you think about, you know, large corporate presences, there are some pieces of technology that you could move to the cloud. But again, latency in the customer, the users experience might be compromised as a result. If there's no value, really, to moving that into the cloud, why would you do it? >> And wouldn't you have to freeze the application in order to move it into the cloud or not for these 10% or 5%, or not necessarily? >> Not necessarily. In many cases, we have applications that are built in a distributed fashion so that you can take, you know, some percentage of it, move it to the cloud, validate it over there, and then move the rest of it-- >> You could build some kind of abstraction layer, okay. So the million dollar question is, what does Veeam have to do with all this? >> Well, so Veeam has been for quite some time now, our data protection engine. You know, when I talk about moving people up the value stack, I don't take that lightly. For me, you know, having engineers do things like and please forgive me for a second here, but do things like backups, to me that's, it's a hard requirement, but it's not really high value for me. So if I can get a platform that can use policies, can use tags can operate natively in the cloud. And once you have it running, you can set it and forget it, other than your periodic, you know, business continuity to DR Tests. You know, that's the dream scenario. And we've achieved that largely. We still have some legacy systems that are not on vignette. But that's something that's going to change over the next, let's call it 18 or so months. >> So did you evolve as Veeam evolved? How long have you been in this role? I apologize-- >> I've been with HBC for three years now. >> Okay, so now, Veeam goes, well, I remember I first saw Veeam at a VMUG. I'm like VMware, I was just brilliant, right? Of course, we all say that. Now, but you saw Veeam's ascendancy through virtualization, and then it took a while, but then all of a sudden, bare metal, the first in SAS, great cloud strategy. Now the first in I don't know if I can say that. Scratch that. We will talk to you about that tomorrow. Someone will come here. >> Someone else will come here. At VeeamON. So, from what you know, about HBC, did you kind of follow that Veeam strategy, they were just sort of there as you migrate it to the cloud, SAS, you know, Microsoft 365, etc? >> Yeah, so we actually started using Veeam in a very limited capacity quite some time ago, mostly to protect on-prem virtualized workloads. And that was, you know, that was really the limit. And, you know, my team had been used Veeam, in my previous role when I worked for a large healthcare provider, health care company in the states. So I was pretty familiar with Veeam as a platform, I was very familiar with the journey. I think that you know, more than many other, most of their competition, they've made the transition into the cloud first world, far more successfully. If you think about the policy engine, the automatic tearing, by age, as well as some of the cloud tagging, and the full integration with the native capabilities in AWS and Azure, it's been a dream scenario for us. >> You and I have talked about this Danny, and a lot of your competitors, especially early on the cloud, they wrap their stack in, you know, to container, or Kubernetes, it's shoved it in the cloud, which is really hosted on prem app. You guys didn't do that. I mean, I pushed you on this a number of times. What did you do? >> Every time there's a modern infrastructure, we say, how can we actually apply data protection, modern data protection to that infrastructure, specifically. We don't try and take what already exists. And Veeam started at this. If you think back when we first started, everyone was doing agents. And if you took an agent, put it on a hypervisor, and you'd 100 of them running at the same time, you would kill your production system. So we said, we'll take a snapshot at the hypervisor level. And then when storage arrays came up with snapshots, let's take advantage of that. When we went to the cloud, we said let's take advantage of the API's rather than trying to put an agent in there. And so every time we encounter a new infrastructure, we say, how do we take advantage of what that infrastructure is bringing? >> We're going to dig into more of this tomorrow. But I don't want to steal from the HBC story. Let me ask you about, you talked about, we talk a lot about digital transformation and modernization. And, of course, COVID was like a force march to digital, we all sort of realize this. What do you see Ope, that's now permanent? Whether it's, you know, security, data protection, and how you're thinking about modernization? What are those practices that are now best practices that will become permanent? >> Well, the obvious one that kind of hits up hits us all in the face is remote work. For the past, let's call it two ish years, my team has been almost completely remote. And as a result, you know, we've been able to show that, for us, it worked just fine. There were some teething pains as we all did >> It was like Y2K. Wasn't it? Hey, the world didn't end. >> It became a non factor very quickly, why? Because for most technology organizations were too used to working outside of normal hours. So it wasn't a stretch really to extend a logic to just working, you know, working remotely permanently. That said, you know, one of the things that for us, and I'm going to deviate away from the technology side for a second, one of the things that is really critical for us is we're trying to make sure that we respect people's work-life balance. As we have colleagues who work from home, you know, today, it's very easy to roll out of bed in the morning, you know, put your zoom suit on, and you know, where you're wearing your shorts, and all that and just work the whole day and then around like five to 7 P.M. or whatever, you sign off and you just realized, I just spent way more time working than I probably would have if I were going to the office. That's you know, it's a great productivity-- >> With no breaks. >> With no breaks, right? And there's no button, no water cooler moments or whatever. But, you know, we're trying to, we're trying to come up with various ways to respect people's, you know, work-life balance. Interestingly enough, we actually have a law that is going to effect in early June, in Ontario, where there will be a right to disconnect. So outside of normal working hours, you will be required to disconnect from your employees unless it is an operational issue, or some other pertinent emergency that requires them to engage. So, I think that's going to become the new norm as we go forward. Coming back to technology, I think just looking at the last two years, I don't know if you've noticed the same thing, but the pace of innovation seems to have picked up a tick. And I think that is going to become the new normal. You're going to see a lot of people challenging status quo a lot of sacred, a lot of sacred cows are going to get, you know, get, you know put out to pasture. And I think that's a good thing for our industry, it's going to quicken the pace of innovation. And it's also going to make people more thoughtful about where they place their bets, I think. You know, the other thing, this is the last one, dollars and cents. If you think about the pandemic, when it first started, we all had to take a breath, because instantly, a whole lot of industries just paused, right? And when that happened, you know, you had no revenue coming in. You had, it was whoa, what are we doing here? And I think that also sharpened our focus, when it came to making some some decisions. You know, we all had to deal with, you know, in some cases, furloughs and some cases reductions. Thankfully, we're all back to back to normal now. But where you place your bets financially, it's going to drive a lot of technology decision in investing, right? So I think that's going to be a larger part of our kind of landscape going forward. >> So that last point about innovation, Danny, it's got to be music to your ears, because your, the premise, you're saying, behind Veeam, is you look at the next trend and then modernize, you put meaning behind modern data protection. It's not just a tagline. You gave a couple of good examples. But talk a little bit more about, you know, what Ope just said and what that means to you guys? >> Well, at a technology level, I always talk about three things being part of modern data protection. One is, around the security, everyone working from home, there's intellectual property going into the home on the endpoint in Microsoft Teams, in all the collaboration tools, that needs to be protected. And actually, we're seeing because of the rise in ransomware, cyber insurance is actually requiring data protection for that. So a big part of modern data protection is all about the security of the environment. The second is cloud acceleration. We want customers to move to the cloud. I love sitting here quietly listening to him tell the story of what they're doing, because it's perfect. That is the story that we want from our customers moving to the cloud. And we don't want to stop that in any way. In fact, all of our licensing models go to market, support set cloud acceleration. And then the last thing is, of course, data protection. If they're going to do that, you own that data, you need to protect it on any cloud and on every cloud. And so our focus around modern data protection is those three things. Ransomware protection, cloud acceleration and modern data protection >> In an environment that is not bespoke, I presume, we're going to talk about Supercloud tomorrow. But right, but this idea that instead of going to, I don't know, if you run on Google, AWS, Azure, whatever, but instead of going there and doing your thing, and going over here and doing your on-prem, but you want a consistent experience across all your estates, whether it's on-prem and the cloud, eventually out to the edge, we're going to talk about that tomorrow, too. Is that a fair premise? >> It is. I mean, operational consistency is absolutely crucial for my team to succeed. I mean, think about running multiple different tools for data protection, it just creates a whole lot of interaction, let's call it that has friction. And ultimately, with anything and technology, wherever there's friction, you're going to have problems eventually, and you're going to have varying levels of skill in the team. Suppose you have part of your data protection team, you lose one or two people to COVID for a week, right? And you have a DR test. And it's so happens that these are the experts at FUBAR software, that is your data protection platform. The people that you may have on-prem, available may not have the right skills. I mean, unifying that stuff and actually running them out of the same ethos, really. I think that creates operational consistency that is so valuable for us to be successful. There was one thing I wanted to bring up, just hearing what you said earlier. Zero trust, I think is going to become part of our industry baseline as well. Zero trust approaches to network connectivity to tooling so that you stop dealing with traditional VPN. >> Tho nication >> Tho nication It just, that's where we're going as well. So apologies but-- >> No, not at all, it was a buzzword before the pandemic. >> It was but it's actually-- >> Now, it's a mandate. >> It's kind of, it's come back and become actually useful. >> If people are trying to, okay, what does this really mean? What does this mean to our organization? Exciting times, you know, the thing is, there's a lot of unknowns, right? And we certainly saw that with COVID. So how do you as a technologist deal with, you know, it used to be we would automate the known. This industry is built on that, right? How are you approaching what you don't know, from a technology, infrastructure and process standpoint? >> So I'm going to, everyone watching, everyone turn their videos off, when it's, I'm going to give them a secret, it's the people. The people are the secret sauce. If you surround yourself with amazing people, curious people, you can solve any problem. I again, like I said, I have the privilege of leading this team. And we have some amazing thinkers and problem solvers. If you set them to task and give them the right support as a leader, they will accomplish anything. And so for me, having a robust and just really diversely skilled team allows us to attack any problem, I have zero, I have zero worries about the future of state of technology, I have absolute confidence, we'll be able to engage, master and exploit whatever technologies come our way or any other challenges that actually happened to you know, be in our path as well. >> We hear this a lot in The Cube people process technology. Technology, figure itself out and get the good people you can get the right process and win. >> Absolutely. >> Ope, Danny, thanks so much for coming on The Cube. Danny, we'll see you tomorrow. Tomorrow afternoon Danny's coming back and we're going to dig into a lot of this stuff and double click on it. Appreciate your time. >> Absolutely. >> Thank you. >> This is Dave Vellante, for David Nicholson. You're watching The Cube's coverage VeamON 2022. From the Aria, in Las Vegas. This is day one. Keep it right there. (enchanting music)

>>from around the globe. It's the Cube presenting Cuban cloud brought to you by Silicon angle. The cube on cloud continues. We're here with Anna Pinza, who is the chief development officer and Anna Plan. We've been unpacking the future of Cloud. We've heard from a number of CEOs how they're thinking about Cloud in the coming decade. And first of all, Anna, welcome back to the Cube. Thanks for participating. It's great to see you again. >>It's great to see you, Dave. And I'm so excited to be here with you again, so hopefully we'll be doing this soon. >>I hope in 2021 will be able to be face to face everybody. Oh, no. A lot of respect. You think about the CEO role, something that you're intimately familiar with its unique because she or he has a very wide observation space across the company. You know, where is the GM or a business line manager there, You know, most concerned with their respective business, the CEO, they're gonna worry about the whole enchilada. And we've heard a lot in this program about digital transformation. We've heard a lot, of course, in the past couple of years, a lot of it was lip service, but but digital transformation, it's no longer optional. What's changed, in your view, in the way that businesses air going about it? >>You know, Dave, I mean, from my perspective, it's interesting. And this year in particular has been really telling for us, right? So I think before many companies were thinking about Hey, I wanna be online, I wanna grow my revenues, you know, with with digital I wanna have a presence. But what's happened actually this year with covert in particular, is that it's gone from being kind of a good to have, you know, to really ah, fundamental necessity. We must have it. And so when I talked to CEOs today, they're really thinking about different kinds of things than before, not just going digital, but how do I enable um, my people toe work remotely right? I've got to enable that how doe I bring the agility and the flexibility that I need in our business, especially with these new ways of working right? How do I look at business resiliency? You know, not just from a you know, something happens, and then how do I recover from it? But also how do I help our, You know, our company and our people then actually spring forward and grow from where we are. So it's gone from a a topic that was happening at the CEO, maybe at the business level. But now it's really also a fundamental CEO and board conversation. And so now we're seeing the CEO is having to present two boards. You know, what is our digital transformation? Are our digital strategy. So I wonder what >>you've seen in that regard. I'm interested in what role cloud plays and supporting those digital initiatives. But more specifically, you know, cloud migration came, you know, off the charts in terms of interest because of co vid. But you had those that that were, you know, deep into cloud had a lot of experience of those maybe not as much. Are you seeing any kind of schism in the marketplace where there's maybe a great advantage to those who really had years of experience on may be a disadvantage to those who didn't or is there kind of an equilibrium you're seeing in the market place? How do you see that playing out? >>Yeah. I mean, you know, What I'm seeing is that I think there used to be a spectrum of CEOs and effect, you know, the ones that were kind of a little bit, you know, you know, forward, ahead on the cloud, both on cloud infrastructure as well, Assassin. Right. And what are the services that we have? And then there were some that were really, um, you know, trying to think about what's the security, you know, implications of the cloud. And, you know, is it more expensive? And you know, So there was this spectrum of CEOs and I think now what's happened is there's such a business imperative that I think CEO s air saying, Look, I'm either gonna survive, you know, in this new world with the agility and the flexibility that I need And so cloud, you know, I'm seeing a lot of CEO is really saying Okay, Cloud is not just fashionable, but it z in and a necessity, right? And we must on we must do it. And I think frankly, the c e. O. S that don't embrace the cloud and that level of agility are going to struggle, right? It's a it's really a personal imperative. for a CEO in addition to sort of for the company. So >>a lot of times we talk about, you know, the three dimensions of people, process and technology, and I'm interested in your thoughts on how cloud has affected those traditional structures and the value chains. I mean, you've got some people are really good a text. Some people are really good at people. Some people are really good at process. Has the cloud affected that is, it upended? It changed it in any way. >>Yeah. I mean, let's let's, like, unpack that a little bit. You know, Dave, because if you think about process, I mean, one of the interesting things about the cloud is that And if you think about the cloud as going all the way from, like I as their sort of infrastructure all the way up the stack toe, actually providing business processes embedded, you know, in in a fast service, then from a process perspective and for CEOs, it's really upended how they think about business process reengineering in their companies. Um, if I think even, you know, five years ago, where you would have ah whole organization, that's, you know, focused on business process reengineering You do that? It takes a long time. You know, you get a consultant, maybe to help you, and then you work through that process. If you look at a SAS service like Anna plan today, where we our goal is, for example, toe orchestrate business performance. We were assassin business planning platform. We've incorporated into our platform that business process. Right. So the role of the CEO relative to business process and effect changes Right now, it's about how the leverage, ah, cloud infrastructure, and then how do you enable the customization is on top of that. But generally speaking, that's a lot easier than having to think about re engineering the whole company. Um, if you think about the technology stock, obviously the cloud, uh, embeds a lot of technology, you know, in the cloud. Right. So you have a lot of native services that are available to you. Um, that is awesome from a talent perspective, you know, because before, maybe you need to have, you know, needed to have database experts or, you know, kubernetes experts. And not that we don't need those today. But many of those capabilities come native in the cloud today. So, in effect, how it helps the CEO is to provide sort of this ecosystem of talent kind of embedded in what the cloud provider does. Right? So >>I wondered. So stay on that for a minute. So remember, before Amazon announced a W s and whether 2006 it was CEO said to me, >>Yeah, I'm thinking >>about maybe I don't need to run my own email, right? So because you have to have seen the SAS ification of of of businesses, which to your point, you know, makes things, uh, simpler and that I can focus on other areas and not to worry about, you know, managing infrastructure to support APS. At the same time you've had this proliferation of cloud you mentioned, of course, that you're with Anna Plan. You see, you got work day, you got Salesforce. You've got service now Oracle, APS and and people struggle. Okay, how do I get these things Talking to whether there's that worried about that data layer. So there's this new level of complexity. How do you see that playing out in the next decade? >>Yeah. You know, we used to say that, you know, we sort of, um, shift. What we do at a certain level and now is an organization we start to look at kind of higher value outcomes, right. And so I see that happening. And you're absolutely right. The conversations that I have with customers now are Hey, um, you know, there's things that are enabled by the cloud, and then on top of that, you need a set of a P i s or connectors or ways to get data in and out, you know, in and out of a particular system or ways to link. In our case, we're linking with Salesforce toe, Anna plan, toe workday or other tools, right? And so you start to think more about the business outcome that you want. The CEO needs to be focused on that, um, instead of maybe, uh, sort of the fundamentals of the technology. Those come, you know, those come for you, and then it's really more about the partnership with the business side. Right to say Okay, what is it that you're trying to do and can I enable that through my you know, cloud architectures, the work days, you know, the adobes or or the sales forces of the world. So I think the conversation is changing. And from my perspective, what's really cool about that is, um it brings the CEO Thio, you know, really makes the CEO of business and thought leader a strategic leader, right, Because, uh, the I t shop is not just talking tech, you know, the top shop has toe talk a lot more about the outcome that they're trying to deliver. >>So I mean, in the early days of cloud, I just wanna pick up on what you just said. I mean, a lot of people in I t's saw the cloud is a threat to their livelihood. And e think I'm inferring from your statements that were largely through that dynamic. And the CEO is now really trying to make the cloud platform for transformation and monetization or whatever other organizational goal might be saving lives or better government. Is >>that sort >>of how you see it, that the role has changed to that? >>I know. I mean, I talked to so many companies, and it's still we're still going through that transition, so I don't think we're completely over the hump of, you know, cloud all day everywhere but a same time. Um, I think what the CEO so really focused on these days is really around business, agility and business outcomes for their partners. By the way, that's one of the things. The second thing, especially these days, is around people, you know, collaboration, communication. How do we, you know, facilitate interaction of people, whether inside or outside of the company on DSO? You know, that's, um that's a very different conversation for the CEO. It doesn't mean that we're not still having the basic conversation of how safe is the cloud. What security do you have built into the cloud, Right, Andi? But I think, frankly, Dave, that we've across the chasm where before it used to be. Hey, I'm a lot more secure on Prem and, you know, given the tremendous focus of the cloud providers and says companies have put on security, um, I see many more companies, you know, feeling very at ease and in fact, telling their organizations right, we actually need to switch to the cloud, including large. Um, you know, large companies that have compliance issues, you know, or like large financial companies. Many of those are making that switch as well. Well, >>it's interesting talk about security, but I think it's kind of a two edged sword, right? Because I think a lot of frankly, I think a lot of executives early days used security as a way to sort of kick the can >>down the road. But >>the reality was cloud, you know better. Worse you could make that argument is different. And so, you know, different concerns people. But it's still a the end of the day. Bad security practices Trump, >>you >>know, good security. And so that's what we've seen so many times that shared responsibility model on DSO. People are still >>learning there, so >>so security is almost this beast in and of itself. I'm interested in your thoughts on on the priorities. I mean, >>our >>customers are they streamlining their their tech investments? I mean, the major focus, as you pointed out on Cloud, has been it's a driver of agility and shifting. Resource is as we talked about. But there's this constant cost pressure, you know, the procurement. Looking at the Amazon Bill, Uh, do you see ah lot of the same going forward? Or do you think the value equation is shifting such that there'll be Maybe, you know, I t is less cost pressure is always gonna be cost pressure. I know, but But more value producer, >>I think I think you're right. I mean, I see it and I see it. Over the last six months, I've seen it really accelerate where CEOs are thinking about three things and one is business resiliency. When I talk about business resiliency, I talk about the ability to recover from crap that happens. You know, where you know, whether it's pandemics or, you know, global events and shifts that companies have to accommodate. Right? So that's one thing that I see them thinking about. The second one that we talked about a little bit is just agility. You know, I see them really focused on that. And the cloud enables that. And, you know, the third one in conversations is really speed innovation, because, um, you know, when companies air talking to cloud providers and particularly SAS cos what I see them talking about is Look, I've got this particular need and it would take me, you know, two years to do it with a legacy player because of, you know, I've got to do this on Prem. But you have the fundamentals built in. And I think I could do it with you in three months. So I think, you know, business Resiliency both to grow and toe recover from stuff. Um, agility and innovation are really three fundamental levers that I see for movement, uh, movement to the cloud. Right? Andi, any one of those that these days I mean, it's funny, uh, depending on who you talk Thio. Any one of those can propel a CEO to make a choice to make that choice. And when they have all of that together, um, they have a lot more, um, lift in effect As a CEO, they have a lot more leverage, right in terms of what they could do for their companies. Well, >>let's stay on innovation. I mean innovation. I've said many times in tech, >>you >>know, for decades it came, came from Moore's Law, it seems, seems so nineties to even say that it's true. So what's going to drive innovation in the in the coming years? I'm interested in your perspective on how machine intelligence and a I n m l on cloud, of course, play into that innovation agenda. >>Yeah. I mean, it's it's interesting, You know, I see it a lot in our business with Anna plan. Um, innovation comes from the ability to bring instead of what you do internally and match it with what's available in the external world. Right? And you mentioned it earlier. Data, You know, data is like the new currency. That's that's, like software, you know, eats the world. Now we talk about data, right? And, um and I think what's really going to drive innovation is being able to have access to the world's data once the company builds this digital DNA, You know, this digital foundation and puts, you know and is able to have access to that data, Then you start to make decisions. You know, you start Thio offer services. Um, you start thio, bring intelligence. Um, that wasn't available before, right? And, um, that's a really powerful thing for any company, whether you're doing, you know, forecasting. And you need to sort of bring the world's data. Whether you're a agricultural company, we talking. And in these days, um, innovation comes in the form of speed, you know, being able to just deliver something new to an audience faster. So to me, the cloud enables, You know, all of that the ability Thio bring in data. And then on top of that, I mean, think about all the A i m l innovation that's happening around the world. We we just launched an offer, actually, um, to be able to dio forecasting intelligent forecasting on top of the cloud we partner with with a W s forecast for that, Um, if we didn't have a cloud platform, you know, to do that and instead of a p i s you know, being digital that way really enables us, uh, the opportunity Thio toe match. You know, one plus one equals one, you know, 100. Really? And bringing the power of that to get to companies together to be ableto enable that type of innovation. >>Well, that that that's interesting. It reminds me of my friends. Ed Walsh is the CEO of a startup called Chaos Search. And you use the statement. He said, where we're standing on the shoulders of the giants, you know what you know, trying not trying to recreate it. And I think you know, you got what you just said is the same thing. You're sort of relying on others to build out cloud infrastructure. So there's a totally left field question. When you hear all the talks about breaking up big tech I >>want Is that a >>relevant to you? Because you figured okay, the clouds gonna be there. It's maybe more about search or it's about, you know, Facebook or, you know, Amazon's dominance. Interestingly, Microsoft's really not in those discussions anymore. They were the center of it >>back. No, no. >>But as a head of development for a company, does that even factor into the equation? And you're kind of not worry about that? >>No. I mean, I'll be honest for me personally. What I do is I compartmentalize my world, right. In a sense, I view I view the partnerships and we have partnerships with Google and AWS and Microsoft and others, Right? So, um, I view those as part of a non opportunity to really provide on ecosystem set of solutions right to customers and those air very powerful. I think those partnerships enable companies like ours, like Sasse companies, to innovate faster, right? And so I compartmentalize and I say those things are are wonderful. I don't know why you would want to break up those companies at the same time. Um, you know, part of what you're referring Thio, you know, has to do with, um more the social and the consumer elements of what's going on. But as a business leader, um, I really I really focused on what the power is, particularly in the enterprise. What is it that we can do for global enterprise companies? And at least in my mind, those two things tend to be separate. >>Couple of things, you said they're triggered my mind. One was ecosystems. We've been talking about data. One of our guests on this program, Alan Nance, has been talking about ecosystems and the power of ecosystems. And I definitely see Cloud is a platform to allow data sharing across those those clouds and then to form ecosystems and share data in ways that we really couldn't have, you know, half a decade or even you no longer ago. And that seems to be where ah lot of the innovation is going to occur. Some of the people talk about the flywheel effect, but it's the power of many versus the resource is of, you know, a few. >>And I'm such a big believer in the ecosystem play. And part of that is because, um, frankly, even over the last 20 years, that the skills that are required and the knowledge that required that is required is so specialized. Dave, you know, if you think about, you know, a I m l and all the algorithms that we need to know when the innovation that's happening there. And so I really don't think that there's any one company that can serve a customer alone, right? And if you think about it from a customer perspective, you know they're made up of their business is made up of needs from a lot of different parties that they're putting together, you know, to accommodate their business outcome. And so the only way to play right now in tech is is in a collaborative way in an ecosystem way. I think the mawr that companies like ours worked with other companies on these partnerships. And frankly, by the way, I think in the past, many companies that have made bold announcements and they would say, Oh, you know, I'm partnering with so and so and I've got this great partner, you know, partnership. And then nothing would happen. You know, like it was just a lot of, you know, talk. But I think what's actually happening now and it's enabled by the cloud, is, um, we have much more of a show me culture, right? We can we can actually say. Okay, well, let's say, uh, Anna plan is partnering with Google. Show me. You know, show me what you're actually doing. And I see our customers, um, asking for references of how these ecosystem partnerships air playing. Um, and, uh, because these stories air out there mawr, I think partnerships are actually much more feasible and and really and pragmatic. Yeah. >>Anna, we call those Barney deals, you know, I love you. You love me, would do a press release, and then nothing ever happens. >>That's right. That's right. And I think that Z that's not gonna work. Going forward day, right? People are asking for a lot more transparency. And so when we think about ecosystems, they really want the meat on the bone, right? They don't want just, uh, announcements that don't really help their business move forward. Yeah, >>And you know the other thing to the come back to data. It's always comes back to data, right? Every conversation. But the data that's created out of that ecosystem is gonna throw off, you know, new capabilities and new data products, data services. And that, to me, is a really exciting, you know, new chapter, I think of cloud. >>Yeah, and it's interesting. You know, the conversations I'm having now are are about data and believe it or not, also about metadata, right? Because people are trying to analyze what's happening with the cloud. You know, among cloud providers what our customers doing with the data, right? How are they using data? How often are they accessing data? Um, security. You know, from that perspective, looking at who's accessing? Accessing what? So, um, the data conversation in the metadata conversation are truly enabled by the cloud and their their key. And they weren't that easy to do in a prior, you know, legacy sort of environment. There's >>a great point. I'm glad you brought that up, because legacy, environment, all the all that metadata that data about the data is locked inside of these systems. And if you're gonna go across clouds and you're gonna have it secure and govern. You've gotta have that metadata visibility and a point of control that actually can see that and and can manage it. So thank you for that at that point. And thank you for coming on the on the Cuban participating. The Cuban cloud has been great having you. >>Thank you so much for having me. It's been a pleasure. >>Alright, Keep it right there. Everybody mawr from the Cuban cloud right after this short break.

>> Announcer: Live from New Orleans, it's The Cube covering VeeamON 2017. Brought to you by Veeam. (upbeat jingle) >> Welcome back to New Orleans everybody. I'm Dave Vellante with Stu Miniman and this is The Cube. The Cube is a leader in live tech coverage, and we're here covering VeeamON 2017. This is day two for us. Paul Mattes is here. He's the vice president of The Global Cloud Group at Veeam. Paul, good to see you. >> Hey, great to be here guys. Thanks for having me in. >> You're welcome. Hosting the conference this morning, throwing Peter MacKay under the bus a little bit. That was kind of funny. He's going to get you in a headlock later. (laughter) No doubt. But you know, it's funny, it's great. VeeamON is an experience for people. You know, it's not just about the hardcore learning, which there's a lot of that going on, but it's about having fun. And a lot of people here are having fun, and you guys embrace that, it's great. >> Yeah, I mean, it's part of our culture, right? I think that's why it's a great company. It's one of the reasons why I came here. And listen, if you can't have fun doing something you love, there's something wrong. So, yeah, we're going to keep that up. >> A lot of sports analogies going on too, which we love in The Cube, oh geeze, ya know? (laughter) Sports angles, and so you guys seem like you're pretty competitive. You're not afraid to put it out there. So, give us the lay of the land. What's happening in the marketplace? >> So, on the cloud specifically this is an area of major growth for us at Veeam. I think it's certainly a competitive landscape, no question about that, but I think we have some advantages given our lineage and where we've evolved from, from an on-prem organization into the cloud. The cloud market's moving very rapidly. You heard me talk about that this morning a little bit, about the pace of cloud adoption. I think it's happening much more quickly than we've ever seen, and I haven't talked to anyone here, and having dozens and dozens of conversations, who haven't talked about having some kind of cloud strategy or trying to figure out how that impacts their go-forward planning in IT. >> You gave some IDC stats I wanted to ask you about that. 46% I think by 2019... >> 2019, right. >> Are going to be doing cloud, and I presume that meant both on-prem cloud? >> Correct. >> So, cloud being an operating model not necessarily a destination. >> That's right, yeah. >> Talk about that a little, what does that mean? >> So, yeah, you hear Danny and I talk about this all the time is that I've been doing the cloud since 2010 when I was with Azure at Microsoft. And everybody talks about moving to the cloud as if that's it, you know, once you're there, it's over with. The reality is, you need to think of the cloud as a way to deliver business results and deliver business solutions. So, just getting to the cloud doesn't mean you're over. Doesn't mean you don't have to think about things like availability and data protection and backup and disaster recovery. So the journey to the cloud, I think it's sort of a, it's a step, right? And then once you're there, there's a whole lot more that you have to do once you're there. >> Paul, one of the things I've been seeing for a couple of years is when it comes to cloud, follow the applications and follow the data. You said you worked on Azure. I mean, no doubt that Azure has lots of applications. Business productivity, I think marketers did a great job this morning laying that out. Virtualization was kind of a tool that applications sat on top. What's that maturation that you see of customers as to how they think about their data and their applications and where things live? >> Yeah, no, it's a great question. I think they're getting much smarter about how they separate and divide those things intelligently. Especially when you think about things like, you know, Mark talked this morning about Stretch DB moving into Azure. And so customers are having to rethink all that that because the cloud really does change how you have to think about application architecture, application deployment. Especially as you do division of data application and sort of the entire architecture end to end. So, I think we're still early days, quite frankly. I think for as much as cloud is in the buzz, and we love where we're evolving to as a cloud organization. The market in general is still early days, and there's a lot of work left to do there. >> Paul, what visibility do you give customers, and how do you help when it comes to the cost of all of this? There's so much, it's often on fud in the market place as to, oh well public cloud's super expensive. No wait, owning it yourself is always expensive. You should always rent versus buy. How do you inject yourself into that conversation? >> Great question, and this is something that has come up since day one. And the assumption is, you've got commodity hardware, you've got scale, so you've got decreasing costs. The reality is it's workload. It's entirely workload dependent, right? There are some workloads that you want to put into the cloud. Absolutely, you would experience amazing economics. We talked today about the scale out backup repository model, taking advantage of Blob story. Perfect example, one of the things customers need to think about is, in addition to those things is ingress and egress costs. It's not just the cost of storage. In the cloud, you have things that surround that in order to make it workable and make it really, really valuable. So one of the things we are doing now with customers is we're starting to work through and develop models to help them think though that. In various stages of network costs, storage costs, and being able to give them some tools that really help them make those decisions. It's not an easy task by any means because at the senior level, executives seem to say, well everybody's saving money in the cloud. Why aren't we there? Why aren't we experiencing that? When you get into the details, it's a little more complicated. But, at the end of the day, the right workload in the right cloud infrastructure, absolutely economic advantages, and more importantly, business advantages. >> Doesn't the savings or business impact really come from what we were talking about earlier, the operating model? Alan Nance, who was the former CIO of Phillips, he was on The Cube, and he said, "If you don't change your operating model, "you're going to just barely scratch the surface of benefits." And so, I wonder if we could explore that a little bit. Is that what you're seeing in the marketplace, that people lift and shift? Maybe there's an advantage that you're shifting CapEx to OpEx, but it's really not moving. >> No, I totally agree. That's not, and it's always frustrated me a little that the economic end of it really seems to dominate a lot of the conversation based on perception. The reality is, yes, this is about changing the operating model and changing the ability of the organization to map to customer demand and map to market demand. The cloud does provide that, and you can't just lift and shift. Yeah, that's okay for some things, but you really have to rethink, okay, if I have this agility and the ability to deliver solutions in a cloud, what does that really mean? How do I really have to think through that from end to end, not just, going back to our earlier question, I'm going to put that in the cloud and we're done. You know? Absolutely you have to rethink everything when you're moving to the cloud from an application's perspective. >> And then from Veeam's perspective, when you think about cloud, obviously you featured Azure up there today. You guys have talked about Affinity with AWS, but there's a lot of cloud providers. >> Paul: Oh yeah, 18,000 of 'em for us. >> And some of those may be managed hosting, but the business model is similar to cloud. So, what are you seeing in terms of the, the market's highly fragmented today. It's very localized. In your view, will it stay that way? Will you see substantial consolidation, or will it be more like the services markets typically are, which is very local, very fragmented, zillions of companies? >> I think, and we think, that there will continue to be a consolidation in this part of the market. There's been an explosion of providers. And what happens is, how do you differentiate if you're a provider in that market, right? What is your secret sauce? What makes you more attractive than another provider? And so, we were already seeing consolidation globally for organizations, so what'll happen, what we think will happen is, yes, there will be some that are very niche, very specialized that continue to have great success, but we will see organizations coming together. Increasingly what we're seeing is providers wrapping new value at its services around their offering, right? This is how they differentiate. We're also seeing service providers that are starting to verticalize. So specializing in a particular healthcare of financial services market as a way to provide value and differentiation for themselves. It's not going to just, and this is why one of the things we've done in Veeam is yes, we will continue to grow the provider base but really focusing ones that differentiate and add value to customers and can partner really, really well with Veeam. >> Paul, Veeam kind of grew up right at that time that not only was was VMware exploding on the market, but there was a new virtualization administrator that didn't exist before. And Veeam helped solve a really salient pain-point that they had. Can you talk to us about when it comes to cloud who are you selling to? The community's very different in a very fragmented cloud world than that kind of big VMware community that we all know. >> Yeah, so it's interesting because we're clearly in an evolution at Veeam. Veeam's legacy, very squarely focused in IT and the IT pro community. That won't change. That will not change. But as you heard from all of our messaging here over the past couple of days, what we really want to continue to evolve to is understanding from a business perspective what is the business value of driving agility, or, driving agility and availability? And so that is now a conversation at a different level. You're talking a CIO level. You're talking COO level. And that's an evolution. It's an easy conversation to have when you're talking about a bits and bytes perspective of how do the bits move, and what are these feature's functions? But you'll see us continually now relate this to, what are the business outcomes? What are the business risks? Why do you need to have an availability strategy, and why is Veeam the choice for that? >> So your positioning is as an availability specialist. No question about that. I want to start by talking a little bit about the market for that. So there's Multi-Cloud, there's Hybrid-Cloud that you've talked about this. I don't know, sometimes we call it inter-clouding. But you are positioning the strategy as positioning in the middle of all that as the availability, the best at availability, always on. So, first of all, how big is that market? Can you talk a little bit about the TAM, however you look at it? Maybe not hardcore numbers, but if you have 'em, we'd love it, but how do you look at that? >> Well I think Peter presented some data in his keynote on Tuesday. And we see the total addressable market as in the six to nine billion dollar range, which is pretty massive. If we can capture just a fraction of that, we're going to easily blow through our stated goals of getting to a billion, a billion five in the next couple of years. So, and that's why we're going to, we will continue to focus across the spectrum of those platforms, right? You heard us talk about, that's the core. We grew up in virtualization, now physical, and that we're going to attack storage. But, and we won't lose that. But now, understanding how all the different cloud assets and cloud platforms intersect that, that whole market is massive and will continue to grow. It's interesting, I was talkin' the other night with an analyst about cloud predictions, and we said, we'd love to go back and look at the last four or five years of predictions from analysts and see, where do they land? Where do they really end up? And I went back, and this is not an in-depth, robust survey, but going back a few years looking at all the estimates of cloud market growth, they were all wrong. And they were all wrong on the low side, all right? And it's hard sometimes to get analysts to not over-hype things, right? But everyone that I looked at, it was more, the reality turned out to be greater than what the prediction was. >> It's the definition of a disruptive technology 'cause we're usually horrible at forecasting it, right? >> (laughing) Yeah, exactly, exactly, which is a good thing. >> So in that sort of center of the cloud, if we can call it that, explain to people why Veeam and not a higher level of abstraction. Like VMware for example, them tryin' to be sort of, even though they're not availability specialists, but they're pretty good at availability. And people are concerned about managers of managers. Why does Veeam win in that scenario? >> I think Veeam wins in that scenario given the breadth of our capability, given the breadth of what we do, thing number one, given the breadth of our ecosystem, number two. We don't have all the answers, but we have an amazing partner ecosystem that does. And number three, I would say the simplicity, right? This mantra that we have at Veeam of it just works, that's very, very valuable. I heard, you know just wandering around here, unsolicited. People don't know who I am when I'm walking with my badge off. And I've heard multiple times, they're not kidding when they say that it just works thing. That's something that we will never ever get away from, and that's a clear differentiator for us. We were talking, we did a breakout session the other day, Danny and I, and we were with a number of service providers, and they asked, we had these canonical examples of what we're doing. And they asked a few questions of why can't we do this? And Danny and I would look back and say, well you can do that, but it's not to the point where we have it yet where we say, it just works. There's a way to string it together. There's a way Veeam can solve that problem, but we need to continue to improve engineering in order to get it to the point where it just works. To make it that simple, elegant, and that's a huge differentiation. >> So the premise there is it's not a zero sum game, certainly between you and VMware because of the simplicity and the integration that you do with VMware. Very interesting dynamic going on in the marketplace. It's early days, but you guys are, I love the positioning. It's clean and it's focused. >> No, thanks, I'm glad because we love the feedback. It's something we work really, really hard at. Veeam is in a great period of transition, bringing Peter on, the leadership team that Peter's brought in. That's really, really important that we're able to communicate where we're going and how we position because we are so passionate about it. You want to make sure that the words come out, well, and that the messaging is proper, and that our strategy is locked on. >> All right, we'll give you the last word on VeeamON 2017, bumper sticker as the trucks are pullin' away... What does it say? >> I mean, I think it's an amazing event. It's my first VeeamON. I have been blown away by the energy and the information that we've shared. I think we have a lot of exciting things that are coming down the pike, and we just can't be thankful enough for the great participation and look forward to the future. >> All right, Paul Mattes, thanks for comin' on The Cube. >> Hey, thanks guys. >> All right, you're welcome. Keep it right there everybody. Stu and I will be back with our next guest at The Cube. We're live from VeeamON 2017 from New Orleans. We'll be right back. (upbeat jingle) (electronica jingle)

(Rhythm music) >> Narrator: Live, from Munich, Germany, it's The Cube. Coverage, DataWorks Summit Europe, 2017. Brought to you by Hortonworks. >> Okay, welcome back everyone. We are live in Munich, Germany for DataWorks 2017, formally known as Hadoop Summit. This is The Cube special coverage of the Big Data world. I'm John Furrier my co-host Dave Vallente. Two days of live coverage, day one wrapping up. Now, Dave, we're just kind of reviewing the scene here. First of all, Europe is a different vibe. But the game is still the same. It's about Big Data evolving from Hadoop to full open source penetration. Puppy's now public in markets Hortonworks, Cloudera is now filing an S-1, Neosoft, Talon, variety of the other public companies. Alteryx. Hadoop is not dead, it's not dying. It certainly is going to have a position in the industry, but the Big Data conversation is front and center. And one thing that's striking to me is that in Europe, more than in the North America, is IOT is more centrally themed in this event. Europe is on the Internet of Things because of the manufacturing, smart cities. So this is a lot of IOT happening here, and I think this is a big discovery certainly, Hortonworks event is much more of a community event than Strata Hadoop. Which is much more about making money and modernization. This show's got a lot more engagement with real conversations and developers sessions. Very engaging audience. Well, yeah, it's Europe. So you've go a little bit different smaller show than North America but to me, IOT, Internet of Things, is bringing the other cloud world with Big Data. That's the forcing function. And real time data is the center of the action. I think is going to be a continuing theme as we move forward. >> So, in 2010 John, it was all about 'What is Hadoop?' With the middle part of that decade was all about Hadoop's got to go into the enterprise. It's gone mainstream in to the enterprise, and now it's sort of 'what's next?' Same wine new bottle. But I will say this, Hadoop, as you pointed out, is not dead. And I liken it to the early web. Web one dot O it was profound. It was a new paradigm. The profundity of Hadoop was that you could ship five megabytes of code to a petabyte of data. And that was the new model and that's spawned, that's catalyzed the Big Data movement. That is with us now and it's entrenched, and now you're seeing layers of innovation on top of that. >> Yeah, and I would just reiterate and reinforce that point by saying that Cloudera, the founders of this industry if you will, with Hadoop the first company to be commercially funded to do what Hortonworks came in after the fact out of Yahoo, came out of a web-scale world. So you have the cloud native DevOps culture, Amar Ujala's at Yahoo, Mike Olson, Jeff Hammerbacher, Christopher Vercelli. These guys were hardcore large-scale data guys. Again, this is the continuation of the evolution, and I think nothing is changed it that regard because those pioneers have set the stage for now the commercialization and now the conversation around operationalizing this cloud is big. And having Alan Nance, a practitioner, rock-star, talking about radical deployments that can drop a billion dollars at a cost savings to the bottom line. This is the kind of conversations we're going to see more of this is going to change the game from, you know, "Hey, I'm the CFO buyer" or "CIO doing IT", to an operational CEO, chief operating officer level conversation. That operational model of cloud is now coming into the view what ERP did in software, those kinds of megatrends, this is happening right now. >> As we talk about the open, the people who are going to make the real money on Big Data are the practitioners, those people applying it. We talked about Alan Nance's example of billion dollar, half a billion dollar cost-savings revenue opportunities, that's where the money's being made. It's not being made, yet anyway with these public companies. You're seeing it Splunk, Tableau, now Cloudera, Hortonworks, MapR. Is MapR even here? >> Haven't seen 'em. >> No I haven't seen MapR, they used to have pretty prominent display at the show. >> You brought up point I want to get back to. This relates to those guys, which is, profitless prosperity. >> Yeah. >> A term used for open source. I think there's a trend happening and I can't put a finger on it but I can kind of feel it. That is the ecosystems of open source are now going to a dimension where they're not yet valued in the classic sense. Most people that build platforms value ecosystems, that's where developers came from. Developer ecosystems fuel open source. But if you look at enterprise, at transformations over the decades, you'd see the successful companies have ecosystems of channel partners; ecosystems of indirect sales if you will. We're seeing the formation, at least I can start seeing the formation of an indirect engine of value creation, vis-à-vis this organic developer community where the people are building businesses and companies. Shaun Connolly pointed to Thintech as an example. Where these startups became financial services businesses that became Thintech suppliers, the banks. They're not in the banking business per se, but they're becoming as important as banks 'cuz they're the providers in Thintech, Thintech being financial tech. So you're starting to see this ecosystem of not "channel partners", resell my equipment or software in the classic sense as we know them as they're called channel partners. But if this continues to develop, the thousand flower blooming strategy, you could argue that Hortonworks is undervalued as a company because they're not realizing those gains yet or those gains can't be measured. So if you're an MBA or an investment banker, you've got to be looking at the market saying, "wow, is there a net-present value to an ecosystem?" It begs the question Dave. >> Dave: It's a great question John. >> This is a wealth creation. A rising tide floats all boats, in that rising tide is a ecosystem value number there. No one has their hands on that, no one's talked about that. That is the upshot in my mind, the silver-lining to what some are saying is the consolidation of Hadoop. Some are saying Cloudera is going to get a huge haircut off their four point one billion dollar value. >> Dave: I think that's inevitable. >> Which is some say, they may lose two to three billion in value, in the IPO. Post IPO which would put them in line with Hortonworks based on the numbers. You know, is that good or bad? I don't think it's bad because the value shifts to the ecosystem. Both Cloudera and Hortonworks both play in open source so you can be glass half-full on one hand, on the haircut, upcoming for Cloudera, two saying "No, the glass is half-full because it's a haircut in the short-term maybe", if that happens. I mean some said Pure Storage was going to get a haircut, they never really did Dave. So, again, no one yet has pegged the valuation of an ecosystem. >> Well, and I think that is a great point, personally I think, I've been sort of racking my brain, will this Big Data hike be realized. Like the internet. You remember the internet hyped up, then it crashed; no one wanted to own any of these companies. But it actually lived up to the hype. It actually exceeded the hype. >> You can get pet food online now, it's called amazon. [Co-Hosts Chuckle Together] All the e-commerce played out. >> Right, e-commerce played out. But I think you're right. But everybody's expecting sort of, was expecting a similar type of cycle. "Oh, this will replace that." And that's now what's going to happen. What's going to happen is the ecosystem is going to create a flywheel effect, is really what you're saying. >> Jeff: Yes. >> And there will be huge valuations that emerge out of this. But today, the guys that we know and love, the Hortonworks, the Clouderas, et cetera, aren't really on the winners list, I mean some of their founders maybe are. But who are the winners? Maybe the customers because they saw a big drop in cost. Apache's a big winner here. Wouldn't ya say? >> Yeah. >> Apache's looking pretty good, Apache Foundation. I would say AWS is a pretty big winner. They're drifting off of this. How about Microsoft and IBM? I mean I feel in a way IBM is sort of co-opted this Big Data meme, and said, "okay, cognitive." And layered all of it's stuff on top of it. Bought the weather company, repositioned the company, now it hasn't translated in to growth, but certainly has profitability implications. >> IBM plays well here, I'll tell you why. They're very big in open source, so that's positive. Two, they have huge track record and staff dealing with professional services in the enterprise. So if transformation is the journey conversation, IBM's right there. You can't ignore IBM on this one. Now, the stack might be different, but again, beauty is in the eye of the beholder because depending on what work clothes you have it depends. IBM is not going to leave you high and dry 'cuz they have a really you need for what they can do with their customers. Where people are going to get blindsided in my opinion, the IBMs and Oracles of the world, and even Microsoft, is what Alan Nance was talking about, the radical transformation around the operating model is going to force people to figure out when to start cannibalizing their own stacks. That's going to be a tell sign for winners and losers in the big game. Because if IBM can shift quickly and co-op the megatrends, make it their own, get out in front of that next wave as Pat Gelsinger would say, they could surf that wave and then tweak, and then get out in front. If they don't get behind that next wave, they're driftwood. It really is all about where you are in the spectrum, and analytics is one of those things in data where, you've got to have a cohesive horizontal strategy. You got to be horizontally scalable with data. You got to make data freely available. You have to have an abstraction layer of software that will allow free movement of data, across systems. That's the number one thing that comes out of seeing the Hortonwork's data platform for instance. Shaun Connolly called it 'connective tissue'. Cloudera is the same thing, they have to start figuring out ways to be better at the data across the horizontal view. Cloudera like IBM has an opportunity as well, to get out in front of the next wave. I think you can see that with AI and machine learning, clearly they're going to go after that. >> Just to finish off on the winners and losers; I mean, the other winner is systems integrators to service these companies. But I like what you said about cannibalizing stacks as an indicator of what's happening. So let's talk about that. Oracle clearly cannibalizing it's stacks, saying, "okay, we're going to the red stack to the cloud, go." Microsoft has made that decision to do that. IBM? To a large degree is cannibalizing it's stack. HP sold off it's stack, said, "we don't want to cannibalize our stack, we want to sell and try to retool." >> So, your question, your point? >> So, haven't they already begun to do that, the big legacy companies? >> They're doing their tweaking the collet and mog, as an example. At Oracle Open World and IBM Interconnect, all the shows we, except for Amazon, 'cuz they're pure cloud. All are taking the unique differentiation approach to their own stuff. IBM is putting stuff that's relate to IBM in their cloud. Oracle differentiates on their stack, for instance, I have no problem with Oracle because they have a huge database business. And, you're high as a kite if you think Oracle's going to lose that database business when data is the number one asset in the world. What Oracle's doing which I think is quite brilliant on Oracle's part is saying, "hey, if you want to run on premise with hardware, we got Sun, and oh by the way, our database is the fastest on our stuff." Check. Win. "Oh you want to move to the cloud? Come to the Oracle cloud, our database runs the fastest in our cloud", which is their stuff in the cloud. So if you're an Oracle customer you just can't lose there. So they created an inimitability around their own database. So does that mean they're going to win the new database war? Maybe not, but they can coexist as a system of records so that's a win. Microsoft Office 365, tightly coupling that with Azure is a brilliant move. Why wouldn't they do that? They're going to migrate their customer base to their own clouds. Oracle and Microsoft are going to migrate their customers to their own cloud. Differentiate and give their customers a gateway to the cloud. VVMware is partnering with Amazon. Brilliant move and they just sold vCloud Air which we reported at Silicon Angle last night, to a French company recently so vCloud Air is gone. Now that puts the VMware clearly in bed with Amazon web services. Great move for VMware, benefit to AWS, that's a differentiation for VMware. >> Dave: Somebody bought vCloud Air? >> I think you missed that last night 'cuz you were traveling. >> Chuckling: That's tongue-in-cheek, I mean what did they get for vCloud Air? >> OVH bought them, French company. >> More de-levering by Michael. >> Well, they're inter-clouding right? I mean de-leveraging the focus, right? So OVH, French company, has a very much coexisted... >> What'd they pay? >> ... strategy. It's undisclosed. >> Yeah, well why? 'Cuz it wasn't a big number. That's my point. >> Back to the other cloud players, Google. I think Google's differentiating on their technology. Great move, smart move. They just got to get, as someone who's been following them, and you know, you and I both love an enterprise experience. They got to speak the enterprise language and execute the language. Not through 19 year olds and interns or recent smart college grads ad and say, "we're instantly enterprise." There's a dis-economies of scale for trying to ramp up and trying to be too heavy on the enterprise. Amazon's got the same problem, you can't hire sales guy fast enough, and oh by the way, find me a sales guy that has ten 15 years executive selling experience to a complex strategic sales, like the enterprise where you now have stakeholders that are in multiple roles and changing roles as Alan Nance pointed out. So the enterprise game is very difficult. >> Yup. >> Very very difficult. >> Well, I think these dupe startups are seeing that. None of them are making money. Shaun Connolly basically said, "hey, it used to be growth they would pay for growth, but now their punishing you if you don't have growth plus profitability." By the way, that's not all totally true. Amazon makes no money, unless stock prices go through the roof. >> There is no self-service, there is no self-service business model for digital transformation for enterprise customers today. It doesn't exist. The value proposition doesn't resinate with customers. It works good for Shadow IT, and if you want to roll out G Suite in some pockets of your organization, but an ad-sense sales force doesn't work in the enterprise. Everyone's finding that out right now because they're basically transforming their enterprise. >> I think Google's going to solve their problem. I think Google has to solve their problem 'cuz... >> I think they will, but to me it's, buy a company, there's a zillion company out there they could buy tomorrow that are private, that have like 300 sales people that are senior people. Pay the bucks, buy a sales force, roll your stuff out and start speaking the language. I think Dianne Green gets this. So, I think, I expect to see Google ... >> Dave: Totally. >> do some things in that area. >> And I think, to you're point, I've always said the rich get richer. The traditional legacy companies, they're holding servant in this. They waited they waited they waited, and they said, "okay now we're going to go put our chips on the table." Oracle made it's bets. IBM made it's bets. HP, not really, betting on hardware. Okay. Fine. Cisco, Microsoft, they're all making their bets. >> It's all about bets on technology and profitability. This is what I'm looking at right now Dave. We talked about it on our intro. Shaun Connolly who's in charge of strategy at Hortonworks clarified it that clearly revenue, losing money is not going to solve the problem for credibility. Profitability matters. This comes back to the point we've said on The Cube multiple years ago and even just as recently as last year, that the world's flipping back down to credibility. Customers in the enterprise want to see credibility and track record. And they're going to evaluate the suppliers based upon key fundamentals in their business. Can they make money? Can they deliver SLAs? These are going to be key requirements, not the shiny new toy from Silicon Valley. Or the cool machine learning algorithm. It has to apply to their product, their value, and they're going to look to companies on the scoreboard and say, "are you profitable?" As a proxy for relevance. >> Well I want to keep it, but I do want to, we've been kind of critical of some of the Hadoop players. Cloudera and Hortonworks specifically. But I want to give them props 'cuz you remember well John, when the legacy enterprise guys started coming into the Hadoop market they all said that they had the same messaging, "we're going to make Hadoop enterprise ready." You remember that well, and I have to say that Hortonworks, Cloudera, I would say MapR as well and the ecosystem, have done a pretty good job of making Hadoop and Big Data enterprise ready. They were already working on it very hard, I think they took it seriously and I think that that's why they are in the mix and they are growing as they are. Shaun Connolly talked about them being operating cashflow positive. Eking out some plus cash. On the next earnings call, pressures on. But we want to see, you know, rocket ships. >> I think they've done a good job, I mean, I don't think anyone's been asleep at the switch. At all, enterprise ready. The questions always been "can they get there fast enough?" I think everyone's recognized that cost of ownership's down. We still solicit on the OpenStack ecosystem, and that they move right from the valley properties. So we'll keep an eye on it, tomorrow we'll be checking in. We got a great day tomorrow. Live coverage here in Munich, Germany for DataWorks 2017. More coverage tomorrow, stay with us. I'm John Furrier with Dave Vallente. Be right back with more tomorrow, day two. Keep following us.