>>EDR NDR, what are the differences, which one's better? Are they better together? Today's security stack contains a lot of different tools and types of data and fortunate, as you know, this creates data silos, which leads to vis visibility gaps. EDR is endpoint detection and response. It's designed to monitor and mitigate endpoint attacks, which are typically focused on computers and servers, NDR network detection, and response. On the other hand, monitors network traffic to gain visibility into potential or active cyber threats, delivering real time visibility across the broader network. One of the biggest advantages that NDR has over EDR is that bad actors can hide or manipulate endpoint data, pretty easily network data. On the other hand, much harder to manipulate because attackers and malware can avoid detection at the endpoint. NDR, as you're gonna hear is the only real source for reliable, accurate, and comprehensive data. >>All endpoints use the network to communicate, which makes your network data, the ultimate source of truth. My name is Lisa Martin, and today on the special cube presentation, Tom Binkowski senior director of product marketing at net scout, and I are gonna explore the trends and the vital reasons why relying upon EDR is not quite enough. We're also gonna share with you the growing importance of advanced NDR. Welcome to the series, the growing importance of advanced NDR in the first segment, Tom's gonna talk with me about the trends that are driving enterprise security teams to implement multiple cyber security solutions that enable greater visibility, greater protection. We're also gonna explore Gartner's concept of the security operations center, SOC visibility triad, and the three main data sources for visibility, SIM EDR and NDR in segment two, Tom. And I will talk about the role of NDR and how it overcomes the challenges of EDR as Tom's gonna discuss, as you'll hear EDR is absolutely needed, but as he will explain it, can't be solely relied upon for comprehensive cybersecurity. And then finally, we'll come back for a third and final segment to discuss why not all NDR is created equal. Tom's gonna unpack the features and the capabilities that are most important when choosing an NDR solution. Let's do this. Here comes our first segment. >>Hey, everyone kicking things off. This is segment one. I'm Lisa Martin with Tom Binowski, senior director of product marketing at nets scout. Welcome to the growing importance of advanced NDR. Tom, great to have you on the program, >>Glad to be here. >>So we're gonna be talking about the trends that are driving enterprise security teams to implement multiple cyber security solutions that really enable greater visibility and protection. And there are a number of factors that continue to expand the ECAC service for enterprise networks. I always like to think of them as kind of the spreading amorphously you shared had shared some stats with me previously, Tom, some cloud adoption stats for 2022 94% of all enterprises today use a cloud service and more than 60% of all corporate data is store in the cloud. So, Tom, what are some of the key trends that nets scout is seeing in the market with respect to this? >>Yeah, so just to continue that, you know, those stats that, that migration of workloads to the cloud is a major trend that we're seeing in that was exasperated by the pandemic, right along with working from home. Those two things are probably the most dramatic changes that we we see out there today. But along with that is also this growing sophistication of the network, you know, today, you know, your network environment, isn't a simple hub and spoke or something like that. It is a very sophisticated combination of, you know, high speed backbones, potentially up to a hundred gigabits combination with partner networks. You have, like we said, workloads up in, in private clouds, pub public clouds. So you have this hybrid cloud environment. So, and then you have applications that are multi-tiered, there are pieces and parts. And in all of that, some on your premise, some up in a private cloud, some on a public cloud, some actually pulling data off when you a customer network or potentially even a, a partner network. So really, really sophisticated environment today. And that's requiring this need for very comprehensive network visibility, not only for, for cybersecurity purposes, but also just to make sure that those applications and networks are performing as you have designed them. >>So when it comes to gaining visibility into cyber threats, I, you talked about the, the sophistication and it sounds like even the complexity of these networks, Gartner introduced the concept of the security operations, visibility triad, or the SOC visibility triad break that down for us. It consists of three main data sources, but to break those three main data sources down for us. >>Sure. So Gartner came out a few years ago where they were trying to, you know, summarize where do security operations team get visibility into threats and they put together a triad and the three sides of the trier consists of one, the SIM security information event manager, two, the endpoint or, or data that you get from EDR systems, endpoint detection, response systems. And the third side is the network or the data you get from network detection, response systems. And, you know, they didn't necessarily say one is better than the other. They're basically said that you need all three in order to have comprehensive visibility for cybersecurity purposes. >>So talk, so all, all three perspectives are needed. Talk about what each provides, what are the different perspectives on threat detection and remediation? >>Yeah. So let's start with the SIM, you know, that is a device that is gathering alerts or logs from all kinds of different devices all over your network. Be it routers servers, you know, firewalls IDs, or even from endpoint detection and network detection devices too. So it is, it is the aggregator or consumer of all those alerts. The SIM is trying to correlate those alerts across all those different data sources and, and trying to the best it can to bubble up potentially the highest priority alerts or drawing correlations and, and, and, and giving you some guidance on, Hey, here's something that we think is, is really of importance or high priority. Here's some information that we have across these disparate data sources. Now go investigate the disadvantage of the SIM is that's all it gives you is just these logs or, or, or information. It doesn't give you any further context. >>Like what happened, what is really happening at the end point? Can I get visibility into the, into the files that were potentially manipulated or the, the registry setting or what, what happened on the network? And I get visibility into the packet date or things like that. It that's, so that's where it ends. And, and that's where the, so there other two sides of the equation come in, the endpoint will give you that deeper visibility, endpoint detection response. It will look for known and or unknown threats, you know, at that endpoint, it'll give you all kinds of additional information that is occurring in endpoint, whether it be a registry setting in memory on the file, et cetera. But you know, one of, some of its disadvantages, it's really difficult because really difficult to deploy pervasive because it requires an agent and, you know, not all devices can accept an agent, but what it miss, what is lacking is the context on the network. >>So if I was an analyst and I started pursuing from my SIM, I went down to the end point and, and said, I wanna investigate this further. And I hit a, I hit a dead end from some sort, or I realize that the device that's potentially I should be alerted to, or should be concerned about is an IOT device that doesn't even have an agent on it. My next source of visibility is on the network and that's where NDR comes in. It, it sees what's traversing. The entire network provides you visibility into that from both a metadata and even a ultimately a packer perspective. And maybe, you know, could be deployed a little bit more strategically, but you know, it doesn't have the perspective of the endpoint. So you can see how each of these sort of compliments each other. And that's why, you know, Gartner said that, that you need 'em all, then they all play a role. They all have their pros and cons or advantage and disadvantages, but, you know, bringing them and using 'em together is, is the key. >>I wanna kinda dig into some of the, the EDR gaps and challenges, as you talked about as, as the things evolve and change the network, environment's becoming far more sophisticated and as well as threat actors are, and malware is. So can you crack that open more on some of the challenges that EDR is presenting? What are some of those gaps and how can organizations use other, other, other data sources to solve them? >>Yeah, sure. So, you know, again, just be clear that EDR is absolutely required, right? We, we need that, but as sort of these network environments get more complex, are you getting all kinds of new devices being put on the network that devices being brought into the network that may be, you didn't know of B Y O D devices you have, I T devices, you know, popping up potentially by the thousands in, in, in some cases when new applications or world that maybe can't accept an and endpoint detection or an EDR agent, you may have environments like ICS and skate environments that just, you can't put an endpoint agent there. However, those devices can be compromised, right? You have different environments up in the cloud or SaaS environments again, where you may not be able to deploy an endpoint agent and all that together leaves visibility gaps or gaps in, in, in the security operation triad. Right. And that is basically open door for exploitation >>Open door. Go ahead. Sorry. >>Yeah. And then, then you just have the malware and the, and the attackers getting more sophisticated. They, they have malware that can detect an EDR agent running or some anti malware agent running on device. And they'll simply avoid that and move on to the next one, or they know how to hide their tracks, you know, whether it be deleting files, registry, settings, things like that. You know, so it's, that's another challenge that, that, that just an agent faces. Another one is there are certain applications like my SQL that are, you know, have ministry administrative rights into certain parts of the windows operate system that EDR doesn't have visibility into another area that maybe EDR may not have visibility is, is, is in, you know, malware that tries to compromise, you know, hardware, especially like bios or something like that. So there's a number of challenges as sort of the whole network environment and sophistication of bad actors and malware increases. >>Ultimately, I think one of the things that, that we've learned, and, and we've heard from you in this segment, is that doing business in, in today's digital economy, demands, agility, table stakes, right? Absolutely essential corporate digital infrastructures have changed a lot in response to the dynamic environment, but its businesses are racing to the clouds. Dave Alane likes to call it the forced March to the cloud, expanding activities across this globally distributed digital ecosystem. They also sounds like need to reinvent cybersecurity to defend this continuously expanding threat surface. And for that comprehensive network, visibility is, as I think you were saying is really, really fundamental and more advanced network detection is, and responses required. Is that right? >>That's correct. You know, you know, we, we at ESCO, this is, this is where we come from. Our perspective is the network. It has been over for over 30 years. And, and we, as well as others believe that that network visibility, comprehensive network visibility is fundamental for cyber security as well as network performance and application analysis. So it, it, it's sort of a core competency or need for, for modern businesses today. >>Excellent. And hold that thought, Tom, cause in a moment, you and I are gonna be back to talk about the role of NDR and how it overcomes the challenges of EDR. You're watching the cube, the leader in enterprise tech coverage. Hey everyone, welcome back. This is segment two kicking things off I'm Lisa Martin with Tom Binkowski, senior director of product marketing at nets scout, Tom, great to have you back on the program. >>Good to be here. >>We're gonna be talking about the growing importance of advanced NDR in this series. In this segment specifically, Tom's gonna be talking about the role of NDR and how it overcomes the challenges of EDR. So Tom, one of the things that we talked about previously is one of the biggest advantages that NDR has over EDR is that bad actors can hide or manipulate endpoint data pretty easily, whereas network data, much harder to manipulate. So my question, Tom, for you is, is NDR the only real source for reliable, accurate, comprehensive data. >>I'm sure that's arguable, right? Depending on who you are as a vendor, but you know, it's, it's our, our answer is yes, NDR solutions also bring an analyst down to the packet level. And there's a saying, you know, the, the packet is the ultimate source or source of truth. A bad actor cannot manipulate a packet. Once it's on the wire, they could certainly manipulate it from their end point and then blast it out. But once it hits the wire, that's it they've lost control of it. And once it's captured by a network detection or, or network monitoring device, they can't manipulate it. They can't go into that packet store and, and manipulate those packets. So the ultimate source of truth is, is lies within that packet somewhere. >>Got you. Okay. So as you said in segment one EDR absolutely necessary, right. But you did point out it can't organizations can't solely rely on it for comprehensive cybersecurity. So Tom, talk about the benefits of, of this complimenting, this combination of EDR and NDR and, and how can that deliver more comprehensive cybersecurity for organizations? >>Yeah, so, so one of the things we talked about in the prior segment was where EDR, maybe can't be deployed and it's either on different types of devices like IOT devices, or even different environments. They have a tough time maybe in some of these public cloud environments, but that's where NDR can, can step in, especially in these public cloud environments. So I think there's a misconception out there that's difficult to get packet level or network visibility and public clouds like AWS or Azure or Google and so on. And that's absolutely not true. They have all kinds of virtual tapping capabilities that an NDR solution or network based monitoring solution could take advantage of. And one of the things that we know we spoke about before some of that growing trends of migrating workloads to the cloud, that's, what's driving that those virtual networks or virtual taps is providing visibility into the performance and security of those workloads. >>As they're migrated to public clouds, NDR can also be deployed more strategically, you know, prior segment talking about how the, in order to gain pervasive visibility with EDR, you have to deploy an agent everywhere agents can't be deployed everywhere. So what you can do with NDR is there's a lot fewer places in a network where you can strategically deploy a network based monitoring device to give you visibility into not only that north south traffic. So what's coming in and out of your network, but also the, the, the, the east west traffic too west traversing, you know, within your network environment between different points of your op your, your multi-tiered application, things like that. So that's where, you know, NDR has a, a, a little bit more advantage. So fewer points of points in the network, if you will, than everywhere on every single endpoint. And then, you know, NDR is out there continuously gathering network data. It's both either before, during, and even after a threat or an attack is, is detected. And it provides you with this network context of, of, you know, what's happening on the wire. And it does that through providing you access to, you know, layer two through layer seven metadata, or even ultimately packets, you know, the bottom line is simply that, you know, NDR is providing, as we said before, that that network context that is potentially missing or is missing in EDR. >>Can you talk a little bit about XDR that kind of sounds like a superhero name to me, but this is extended detection and response, and this is an evolution of EDR talk to us about XDR and maybe EDR NDR XDR is really delivering that comprehensive cybersecurity strategy for organizations. >>Yeah. So, you know, it's, it's interesting. I think there's a lot of confusion out there in the industry. What is, what is XDR, what is XDR versus an advanced SIM, et cetera. So in some cases, there are some folks that don't think it's just an evolution of EDR. You know, to me, XDR is taking, look at these, all these disparate data sources. So going back to our, when our first segment, we talked about the, the, the security operations center triad, and it has data from different perspectives, as we were saying, right? And XCR, to me is the, is, is trying to bring them all together. All these disparate data source sets or sources bring them together, conduct some level of analysis on that data for the analyst and potentially, you know, float to the top. The most, you know, important events are events that we, that you know, that the system deems high priority or most risky and so on. But as I, as I'm describing this, I know there are many advanced Sims out there trying to do this today too. Or they do do this today. So this there's this little area of confusion around, you know, what exactly is XDR, but really it is just trying to pull together these different sources of information and trying to help that analyst figure out, you know, what, where's the high priority event that's they should be looking at, >>Right? Getting those high priority events elevated to the top as soon as possible. One of the things that I wanted to ask you about was something that occurred in March of this year, just a couple of months ago, when the white house released a statement from president Biden regarding the nation's cyber security, it included recommendations for private companies. I think a lot of you are familiar with this, but the first set of recommendations were best practices that all organizations should already be following, right? Multifactor authentication, patching against known vulnerabilities, educating employees on the phishing attempts on how to be effective against them. And the next statement in the president's release, focus on data safety practices, also stuff that probably a lot of corporations doing encryption maintaining offline backups, but where the statement focused on proactive measures companies should take to modernize and improve their cybersecurity posture. It was vague. It was deploy modern security tools on your computers and devices to continuously look for and mitigate threats. So my question to you is how do, how do you advise organizations do that? Deploy modern security tools look for and mitigate threats, and where do the data sources, the SOC tri that we talked about NDR XDR EDR, where did they help fit into helping organizations take something that's a bit nebulous and really figure out how to become much more secure? >>Yeah, it was, it was definitely a little vague there with that, with that sentence. And also if you, if you, I think if, if you look at the sentence, deploy modern security tools on your computers and devices, right. It's missing the network as we've been talking about there, there's, there's a key, key point of, of reference that's missing from that, from that sentence. Right. But I think what they mean by deploying monitor security tools is, is really taking advantage of all these, these ways to gain visibility into, you know, the threats like we've been talking about, you're deploying advanced Sims that are pulling logs from all kinds of different security devices or, and, or servers cetera. You're, you're deploying advanced endpoint detection systems, advanced NDR systems. And so on, you're trying to use, you're trying to utilize XDR new technology to pull data from all those different sources and analyze it further. And then, you know, the other one we, we haven't even mentioned yet. It was the, so the security operation and automation, right. Response it's now, now what do we do? We've detected something, but now help me automate the response to that. And so I think that's what they mean by leveraging modern, you know, security tools and so on >>When you're in customer conversations, I imagine they're coming to, to Netscale looking for advice like what we just talked through the vagueness in that statement and the different tools that organizations can use. So when you're talking to customers and they're talking about, we need to gain visibility across our entire network, across all of our devices, from your perspective from net Scout's perspective, what does that visibility actually look like and deliver across an organization that does it well? >>Yeah, we, I mean, I think the simple way to put it is you need visibility. That is both broad and deep. And what I mean by broad is that you need visibility across your network, no matter where that network may reside, no matter what protocols it's running, what, you know, technologies is it, is it virtualized or, or legacy running in a hundred gigabits? Is it in a private cloud, a public cloud, a combination of both. So that broadness, meaning wherever that network is or whatever it's running, that's, that's what you need visibility into. It has to be able to support that environment. Absolutely. And the, the, absolutely when I, we talk about being deep it's, it has to get down to a packet level. It can't be, you know, as high as say, just looking at net flow records or something like that, that they are valuable, they have their role. However, you know, when we talk about getting deep, it has to ultimately get down to the packet level and that's, and we've said this in this time that it's ultimately that source of truth. So that, that's what that's, I think that's what we need. >>Got it. That that depth is incredibly important. Thanks so much, Tom, for talking about this in a moment, you and I are gonna be back, we're gonna be talking about why not all NDR is created equally, and Tom's gonna actually share with you some of the features and capabilities that you should be looking for when you're choosing an NDR solution. You're watching the cube, the leader in enterprise tech coverage, >>And we're clear. >>All right. >>10 45. Perfect. You guys are >>Okay. Good >>Cruising. Well, >>Welcome back everyone. This is segment three. I'm Lisa Martin with Tom gin. Kowski senior director of product marketing at nets scout. Welcome back to the growing importance of advanced NDR in this segment, Tom and I are gonna be talking about the fact that not all NDR is created equally. He's gonna impact the features, the capabilities that are most important when organizations are choosing an NDR solution. Tom, it's great to have you back on the program. >>Great, great to be here. >>So we've, we've covered a lot of content in the first two segments, but as we, as we see enterprises expanding their it infrastructure, enabling the remote workforce, which is here to stay leveraging the crowd cloud, driving innovation, the need for cybersecurity approaches and strategies that are far more robust and deep is really essential. But in response to those challenges, more and more enterprises are relying on NDR solutions that fill some of the gaps that we talked about with some of the existing tool sets in the last segment, we talked about some of the gaps in EDR solutions, how NDR resolves those. But we also know that not all NDR tools are created equally. So what, in your perspective, Tom are some of the absolutely fundamental components of NDR tools that organizations need to have for those tools to really be robust. >>Yeah. So we, we, we touched upon this a little bit in the previous segment when we talked about first and foremost, your NDR solution is providing you comprehensive network visibility that must support whatever your network environment is. And it should be in a single tool. It shouldn't have a one vendor per providing you, you know, network visibility in the cloud and another vendor providing network visibility in a local network. It should be a single NDR solution that provides you visibility across your entire network. So we also talked about it, not only does it need to be broadened like that, but also has to be deep too, eventually down to a packet level. So those are, those are sort of fundamental table stakes, but the NDR solution also must give you the ability to access a robust source of layer two or layer three metadata, and then ultimately give you access to, to packets. And then last but not least that solution must integrate into your existing cybersecurity stack. So in the prior segments, we talked a lot about, you know, the, the SIM, so that, that, that NDR solution must have the ability to integrate into that SIM or into your XDR system or even into your source system. >>Let's kind of double click on. Now, the evolution of NDR can explain some of the differences between the previous generations and advanced NDR. >>Yeah. So let's, let's start with what we consider the most fundamental difference. And that is solution must be packet based. There are other ways to get network visibility. One is using net flow and there are some NDR solutions that rely upon net flow for their source of, of, of visibility. But that's too shallow. You ultimately, you need to get deeper. You need to get down to a pack level and that's again where some, so, you know, you, you want to make sure that your NDR or advanced NDR solution is packet based. Number two, you wanna make sure that when you're pulling packets off the wire, you can do it at scale, that full line rate and in any environment, as we, as we spoke about previously, whether it be your local environment or a public cloud environment, number three, you wanna be able to do this when your traffic is encrypted. As we know a lot of, lot of not of network traffic is encrypted today. So you have the ability to have to have the ability to decrypt that traffic and then analyze it with your NDR system. >>Another, another, another one number four is, okay, I'm not just pulling packets off the wire, throwing full packets into a data storage someplace. That's gonna, you know, fill up a disc in a matter of seconds, right? You want the ability to extract a meaningful set of metadata from layer two to layer seven, the OSI model look at key metrics and conducting initial set of analysis, have the ability to index and compress that data, that metadata as well as packets on these local storage devices on, you know, so having the ability to do this packet capture at scale is really important, storing that packets and metadata locally versus up in a cloud to, you know, help with some compliance and, and confidentiality issues. And then, you know, last final least when we talk about integration into that security stack, it's multiple levels of integration. Sure. We wanna send alerts up into that SIM, but we also want the ability to, you know, work with that XDR system to, or that, that source system to drill back down into that metadata packets for further analysis. And then last but not least that piece of integration should be that there's a robust set of information that these NDR systems are pulling off the wire many times in more advanced mature organizations, you know, security teams, data scientists, et cetera. They just want access to that raw data, let them do their own analysis outside, say the user interface with the boundaries of a, of a vendor's user interface. Right? So have the ability to export that data too is really important and advance in the systems. >>Got it. So, so essentially that the, the, the breadth, the visibility across the entire infrastructure, the depth you mentioned going down to a packet level, the scale, the metadata encryption, is that what net scout means when you talk about visibility without borders? >>Yeah, exactly. You know, we, we have been doing this for over 30 years, pulling packets off of wire, converting them using patent technology to a robust set of metadata, you know, at, at full line rates up to a hundred in any network environment, any protocols, et cetera. So that, that's what we mean by that breadth. And in depth of visibility, >>Can you talk a little bit about smart detection if we say, okay, advanced NDR needs to deliver this threat intelligence, but it also needs to enable smart detection. What does net scout mean by that? >>So what you wanna make sure you have multiple methods of detection, not just a methods. So, you know, not just doing behavioral analysis or not just detecting threats based on known indicators or compromise, what you wanna wanna have multiple ways of detecting threats. It could be using statistical behavioral analysis. It could be using curated threat intelligence. It could be using, you know, open source signature engine, like from Sara COTA or other threat analytics, but to, but you also wanna make sure that you're doing this both in real time and have the ability to do it historically. So after a, a threat has been detected, for example, with another, with another product, say an EDR device, you now want the ability to drill into the data from the network that had occurred in, in, you know, prior to this. So historically you want the ability to comb through a historical set of metadata or packets with new threat intelligence that you've you've gathered today. I wanna be able to go back in time and look through with a whole new perspective, looking for something that I didn't know about, but you know, 30 days ago. So that's, that's what we, what we mean by smart detection. >>So really what organizations need is these tools that deliver a far more comprehensive approach. I wanna get into a little bit more on in integration. You talked about that in previous segments, but can you, can you give us an example of, of what you guys mean by smart integration? Is that, what does that deliver for organizations specifically? >>Yeah, we really it's three things. One will say the integration to the SIM to the security operations center and so on. So when, when an ed, when an NDR device detects something, have it send an alert to the SIM using, you know, open standards or, or, or like syslog standards, et cetera, the other direction is from the SIM or from the so, so one, you know, that SIM that, so is receiving information from many different devices that are, or detecting threats. The analyst now wants the ability to one determine if that's a true threat or not a false positive, if it is a true threat, you know, what help me with the remediation effort. So, you know, an example could be an alert comes into a SIM slash. So, and part of the playbook is to go out and grab the metadata packets associated with this alert sometime before and sometime after when that alert came in. >>So that could be part of the automation coming from the SIM slash. So, and then last one, not least is we alluded to this before is having the ability to export that robust set of layer two through layer seven metadata and or packets to a third party data lake, if you will, and where analysts more sophisticated analysts, data scientists, and so on, can do their own correlation, enrich it with their own data, combined it with other data sets and so on, do their own analysis. So it's that three layers of, of integration, if you will, that really what should be an advanced NDR system? >>All right, Tom, take this home for me. How does nets scout deliver advanced NDRs for organizations? >>We do that via solution. We call Omni the security. This is Netscout's portfolio of, of multiple different cyber security products. It all starts with the packets. You know, our core competency for the last 30 years has been to pull packets off the wire at scale, using patented technologies, for example, adapt service intelligence technologies to convert those broad packets into robust set of layer seven layer two through seven metadata. We refer to that data as smart data with that data in hand, you now have the ability to conduct multiple types of threat detection using statistical behavioral, you know, curative threat intelligence, or even open source. So rules engine, you have the ability to detect threats both in real time, as well as historically, but then a solution goes beyond just detecting threats or investigating threats has the ability to influence the blocking of threats too. So we have integrations with different firewall vendors like Palo Alto, for example, where they could take the results of our investigation and then, you know, create policies, blocking policies into firewall. >>In addition to that, we have our own Omni a E D product or our Arbor edge defense. That's, that's a product that sits in front of the firewall and protects the firewall from different types of attacks. We have integration that where you can, you can also influence policies being blocked in the a E and in last but not least, our, our solution integrates this sort of three methods of integration. As we mentioned before, with an existing security system, sending alerts to it, allowing for automation and investigation from it, and having the ability to export our data for, you know, custom analysis, you know, all of this makes that security stack that we've been talking about better, all those different tools that we have. That's that operations triads that we talked about or visibility triad, we talked about, you know, our data makes that entire triad just better and makes the overall security staff better and makes overall security just, just better too. So that, that that's our solution on the security. >>Got it. On the security. And what you've talked about did a great job. The last three segments talking about the differences between the different technologies, data sources, why the complimentary and collaborative nature of them working together is so important for that comprehensive cybersecurity. So Tom, thank you so much for sharing such great and thoughtful information and insight for the audience. >>Oh, you're welcome. Thank you. >>My pleasure. We wanna thank you for watching the program today. Remember that all these videos are available@thecube.net, and you can check out today's news on Silicon angle.com and of course, net scout.com. We also wanna thank net scout for making this program possible and sponsoring the cube. I'm Lisa Martin for Tomski. Thanks for watching and bye for now.

>> Man Offscreen: Standby. Dave is coming you in 5, 4, 3, 2. >> We're back at the Big Apple, theCUBE's coverage of MongoDB World 2022. Sahir Azam is here, he's the Chief Product Officer of MongoDB, and Guillermo Rauch who's the CEO of Vercel. Hot off the keynotes from this morning guys, good job. >> Thank you. >> Thank you. >> Thank you for joining us here. Thanks for having us. Guillermo when it comes to modern web development, you know the back-end, the cloud guys got to it kind of sewn up, >> you know- >> Guillermo: Forget about it. >> But all the action's in the front end, and that's where you are. Explain Vercel. >> Yeah so Vercel is the company that pioneers front-end development as serverless infrastructure. So we built Next.js which is the most popular React framework in the world. This is what front-end engineers choose to build innovative UI's, beautiful websites. Companies like Dior and GitHub and TikTok and Twitch, which we mentioned in the keynote, are powering their entire dot-coms or all of their new parts of their dot-coms with Next.js. And Vercel is the serverless platform where you can deploy frameworks like in Next.js and others like Svelte and Vue to create really fast experiences on the web. >> So I hear, so serverless, I hear that's the hot trend. You guys made some announcements today. I mean when you look at the, we have spending data with our friends at ETR right down the street. I mean it's just off the charts, whether it's Amazon, Google, Azure Functions, I mean it's just exploding. >> Sahir: Yeah, it's I think in many ways, it's a natural trend. You know, we talk a lot about, whether it be today's keynote or another industry talks you see around our industry that developers are constantly looking for ways to focus on innovation and the business logic that defines their application and as opposed to managing the plumbing, and management of infrastructure. And we've seen this happen over and over again across every layer of the stack. And so for us, you know MongoDB, we have a bit of, you know sort of a lens of a broad spectrum of the market. We certainly have you know, large enterprises that are modernizing existing kind of core systems, then we have developers all over the world who are building the next big best thing. And that's what led us to partner with Vercel is just the bleeding edge of developers building in a new way, in a much more efficient way. And we wanted to make sure we provide a data platform that fits naturally in the way they want to work. >> So explain to our audience the trade-offs of serverless, and I want to get into sort of how you've resolved that. And then I want to hear from Guillermo, what that means for developers. >> Sahir: Yeah in our case, we don't view it as an either or, there are certain workloads and definitely certain companies that will gravitate towards a more traditional database infrastructure where they're choosing the configuration of their cluster. They want full control over it. And that provides, you know, certain benefits around cost predictability or isolation or perceived benefits at least of those things. And customers will gravitate towards that. Now on the flip side, if you're building a new application or you want the ability to scale seamlessly and not have to worry about any of the plumbing, serverless is clearly the easier model. So over the long term, we certainly expect to see as a mix of things, more and more serverless workloads being built on our platform and just generally in the industry, which is why we leaned in so heavily on investing in Atlas serverless. But the flexibility to not be forced into a particular model, but to get the same database experience across your application and even switch between them is an important characteristic for us as we build going forward. >> And you stressed the cost efficiency, and not having to worry about, you know, starting cold. You've architected around that, and what does that mean for a developer? >> Guillermo: For a developer it means that you kind of get the best of both worlds, right? Like you get the best possible performance. Front-end developers are extremely sensitive to this. That's why us pioneering this concept, serverless front-end, has put us in a very privileged position because we have to deliver that really quick time to first buy, that really quick paint. So any of the old trade-offs of serverless are not accepted by the market. You have to be extremely fast. You have to be instant to deliver that front-end content. So what we talked about today for example, with the Vercel Edge network, we're removing all of the cost of that like first hit. That cold start doesn't really exist. And now we're seeing it all across the board, going into the back-end where Mongo has also gotten rid of it. >> Dave: How do you guys collaborate? What's the focus of integration specifically from, you know, an engineering resource standpoint? >> Yeah the main idea is, idea to global app in seconds, right? You have your idea. We give you the framework. We don't give you infrastructure primitives. We give you all the necessary tools to start your application. In practice this means you host it in a Git repo. You import it onto Vercel. You install the Mongo integration. Now your front-end and your data back-end are connected. And then your application just goes global in seconds. >> So, okay. So you've abstracted away the complexity of those primitives, is that correct? >> Guillermo: Absolutely. >> Do do developers ever say, "That's awesome but I'd like to get to them every now and then." Or do you not allow that? >> Definitely. We expose all the underlying APIs, and the key thing we hear is that, especially with the push for usage-based billing models, observability is of the essence. So at any time you have to be able to query, in real time, every data point that the platform is observing. We give you performance analytics in real time to see how your front-end is performing. We give you statistics about how often you're querying your back-end and so on, and your cache hit ratios. So what I talked about today in the keynote is, it's not just about throwing more compute at the problem, but the ability to use the edge to your advantage to memoize computation and reuse it across different visits. >> When we think of mission critical historically, you know, you think about going to the ATM, right? I mean a financial transaction. But Mongo is positioning for mission critical applications across a variety of industries. Do we need to rethink what mission critical means? >> I think it's all in the eye of the beholder so to speak. If you're a new business starting up, your software and your application is your entire business. So if you have a cold start latency or God forbid something actually goes down, you don't have a business. So it's just as mission critical to that founder of a new business and new technology as it is, you know, an established enterprise that's running sort of a more, you know, day-to-day application that we may all interact with. So we treat all of those scenarios with equal fervor and importance right? And many times, it's a lot of those new experiences that the become the day-to-day experiences for us globally, and are super important. And we power all of those, whether it be an established enterprise all the way to the next big startup. >> I often talk about COVID as the forced march to digital. >> Sahir: Mm-Hmm. >> Which was obviously a little bit rushed, but if you weren't in digital business, you were out of business. And so now you're seeing people step back and say, "All right, let's be more thoughtful about our digital transformation. We've got some time, we've obviously learned some things made some mistakes." It's all about the customer experience though. And that becomes mission critical right? What are you seeing Guillermo, in terms of the patterns in digital transformation now that we're sort of exiting the isolation economy? >> One thing that comes to mind is, we're seeing that it's not always predictable how fast you're going to grow in this digital economy. So we have customers in the ecommerce space, they do a drop and they're piggybacking on serverless to give them that ability to instantly scale. And they couldn't even prepare for some of these events. We see that a lot with the Web3 space and NFT drops, where they're building in such a way that they're not sensitive to this massive fluctuations in traffic. They're taking it for granted. We've put in so much work together behind the scenes to support it. But the digital native creator just, "Oh things are scaling from one second to the next like I'm hitting like 20,000 requests per second, no problem Vercel is handling it." But the amount of infrastructural work that's gone behind the scenes in support has been incredible. >> We see that in gaming all the time, you know it's really hard for a gaming company to necessarily predict where in the globe a game's going to be particularly hot. Games get super popular super fast if they're successful, it's really hard to predict. It's another vertical that's got a similar dynamic. >> So gaming, crypto, so you're saying that you're able to assist your customers in architecting so that the website doesn't crash. >> Guillermo: Absolutely. >> But at the same time, if the the business dynamic changes, they can dial down. >> Yeah. >> Right and in many ways, slow is the new down, right? And if somebody has a slow experience they're going to leave your site just as much as if it's- >> I'm out of here- >> You were down. So you know, it's really maintaining that really fast performance, that amazing customer experience. Because this is all measured, it's scientific. Like anytime there's friction in the process, you're going to lose customers. >> So obviously people are excited about your keynote, but what have they been saying? Any specific comments you can share, or questions that you got that were really interesting or? >> I'm already getting links to the apps that people are deploying. So the whole idea- >> Come on! >> All over the world. Yeah so it's already working I'm excited. >> So they were show they were showing off, "Look what I did" Really? >> Yeah on Twitter. >> That's amazing. >> I think from my standpoint, I got a question earlier, we were with a bunch of financial analysts and investors, and they said they've been talking to a lot of the customers in the halls. And just to see, you know, from the last time we were all in person, the number of our customers that are using multiple capabilities across this idea of a developer data platform, you know, certainly MongoDB's been a popular core database open source for a long time. But the new capabilities around search, analytics, mobile being adopted much more broadly to power these experiences is the most exciting thing from our side. >> So from 2019 to now, you're saying substantial uptick in adoption for these features? >> Yeah. And many of them are new. >> Time series as well, that's pretty new, so yeah. >> Yeah and you know, our philosophy of development at MongoDB is to get capabilities in the hands of customers early. Get that feedback to enrich and drive that product-market fit. And over the last three years especially, we've been transitioning from a single product kind of core, you know, non relational modern database to a data platform, a developer data platform that adds more and more capabilities to power these modern applications. And a lot of those were released during the pandemic. Certainly we talked about them in our virtual conferences and all the zoom meetings we had over the years. But to actually go talk to all these customers, this is the largest conference we've ever put on, and to get a sense of, wow all the amazing things they're doing with them, it's definitely a different feeling when we're all together. >> So that's interesting, when you have such a hot product, product-led growth which is what Mongo has been in, and you add these new features. They're coming from the developers who are saying, "Hey, we need this." >> Yip. >> Okay so you have a pretty high degree of confidence, but how do you know when you have product-market fit? I mean, is it adoption, usage, renewals? What's your metric? >> Yeah I think it's a mix of quantitative measures that you know, around conversion rates, the size of your funnel, the retention rate, NPS which obviously can be measured, but also just qualitative. You know when you're talking to a developer or a technology executive around what their needs are, and then you see how they actually apply it to solve a problem, it's that balance between the qualitative and the quantitative measurement of things. And you can just sort of, frankly you can feel it. You can see it in the numbers sure, but you can kind of feel that excitement, you can see that adoption and what it empowers people to do. And so to me, as a product leader, it's always a blend of those things. If you get too obsessed with purely the metrics, you can always over optimize something for the wrong reason. So you have to bring in that qualitative feedback to balance yourself out. >> Right. >> Guillermo, what's next? What do you not have that you want from Sahir and Mongo? >> So the natural next step for serverless computing is, is the Edge. So we have to auto-scale, we have to tolerate fares. We have to be avail. We have to be easy, but we have to be global. And right now we've been doing this by using a lot of techniques like caching and replication and things like this. But the future's about personalizing even more to each visitor depending on where they are. So if I'm in New York, I want to get the latest offers for New York on demand, just for me, and using AI to continue to personalize that experience. So giving the developer these tools in a way where it feels natural to build an application like this. It doesn't feel like, "Oh I'm going to do this year 10 if I make it, I'm going to do it since the very beginning." >> Dave: Okay interesting. So that says to me that I'm not going to make a round trip to the cloud necessarily for that experience. So I'm going to have some kind, Apple today, at the Worldwide Developer Conference announced the M2, right. I've been looking at the M1 Ultra, and I'm going wow look at that! And so- >> Sahir: You were talking about that new one backstage. >> I mean it's this amazing pace of Silicon development and they're focusing on the NPU and you look at what Tesla's doing. I mean it's just incredible. So you're going to have some new hardware architecture that emerges. Most of the AI that's done today is modeling in the cloud. You're going to have a real time inferencing at the Edge. So that's not going to do the round trip. There's going to be a data store there, I think it has to be. You're going to persist some of the data, maybe not all of it. So it's a whole new architecture- >> Sahir: Absolutely. >> That's developing. That sounds very disruptive. >> Sahir: Yeah. >> How do you think about that, and how does Mongo play there? Guillermo first. >> What I spent a lot of time thinking about is obviously the developer experience, giving the programmer a programming model that is natural, intuitive, and produces its great results. So if they have to think about data that's local because of regulatory reasons for example, how can we let the framework guide them to success? I'm just writing an application I deployed to the cloud and then everything else is figured out. >> Yeah or speed of light is another challenge. (Sahir and Guillermo laugh) >> How can we overcome the speed of light is our next task for sure. >> Well you're working on that aren't you? You've got the best engineers on that one. (Sahir and Guillermo laugh) >> We can solve a lot of problems, I'm not sure of that one. >> So Mongo plays in that scenario or? >> Yeah so I think, absolutely you know, we've been focused heavily on becoming the globally distributed cloud data layer. The back-end data layer that allows you to persist data to align with performance and move data where it needs to be globally or deal with data sovereignty, data nationalism that's starting to rise, but absolutely there is more data being pushed out to the Edge, to your point around processing or inference happening at the Edge. And there's going to be a globally distributed front-end layer as well, whether data and processing takes apart. And so we're focused on one, making sure the data connectivity and the layer is all connected into one unified architecture. We do that in combination with technologies that we have that do with mobility or edge distribution and synchronization of data with realm. And we do it with partnerships. We have edge partnerships with AWS and Verizon. We have partnerships with a lot of CVM players who are building out that Edge platform and making sure that MongoDB is either connected to it or just driving that synchronization back and forth. >> I call that unified experience super cloud, Robbie Belson from Verizon the cloud continuum, but that consistent experience for developers whether you're on Prim, whether you're in you know, Azure, Google, AWS, and ultimately the Edge. That's the big- >> That's where it's going. >> White space right now I'm hearing, Guillermo, right? >> I think it'll define the next generation of how software is built. And we're seeing this almost like a coalition course between some of the ideas that the Web3 developers are excited about, which is like decentralization almost to the extreme. But the Web2 also needs more decentralization, because we're seeing it with like, the data needs to be local to me, I need more privacy. I was looking at the latest encryption features in Mongo, like I think both Web2 need to incorporate more of the ideas of Web3 and vice versa to create the best possible consumer experience. Privacy matters more than ever before. Latency for conversion matters more than ever before. And regulations are changing. >> Sahir: Yeah. >> And you talked about Web3 earlier, talked about new protocols, a new distributed you know, decentralized system emerging, new hardware architectures. I really believe we really think that new economics are going to bleed back into the data center, and yeah every 15 years or so this industry gets disrupted. >> Sahir: Yeah. >> Guillermo: Absolutely. >> You know you ain't see nothing yet guys. >> We all talked about hardware becoming commoditized 10, 15 years ago- >> Yeah of course. >> We get the virtualization, and it's like nope not at all. It's actually a lot of invention happening. >> The lower the price the more the consumption. So guys thanks so much. Great conversation. >> Thank you. >> Really appreciate your time. >> Really appreciate it I enjoyed the conversation. >> All right and thanks for watching. Keep it right there. We'll be back with our next segment right after this short break. Dave Vellante for theCUBE's coverage of MongoDB World 2022. >> Man Offscreen: Clear. (clapping) >> All right wow. Don't get up. >> Sahir: Okay. >> Is that a Moonwatch? >> Sahir: It is a Speedmaster but it's that the-

>> Okay. We're here with Vasanth Kumar who's the Principal Solutions Architect for MongoDB. Vasanth, welcome to "theCube." >> Thanks Dave. >> Hey, listen, I feel like you were born to be an architect in technology. I mean, you've worked for big SIs, you've worked with many customers, you have experience in financial services and banking. Tell us, the audience, a little bit more about yourself, and what you're up to these days. >> Yeah. Hi, thanks for the for inviting me for this discussion. I'm based out of Bangalore, India, having around 18 years experience in IT industry, building enterprise products for different domains, verticals, finance built and enterprise banking applications, IOT platforms, digital experience solutions. Now being with MongoDB nearly two years, been working in a partner team as a principal solutions architect, especially working with ISBs to build the best practices of handling the data and embed the right database as part of their product. I also worked with technology partners to integrate the compatible technology compliance with MongoDB. And also worked with the private cloud providers to provide a database as a service. >> Got it. So, you know, I have to Vasanth, I think Mongo, you kind of nailed it. They were early on with the trends of managing unstructured data, making it really simple. There was always a developer appeal, which has lasted and then doing so with an architecture that scales out, and back in the early days when Mongo was founded, I remember those days, I mean, digital transformation, wasn't a thing, it wasn't a buzz word, but it just so happens that Mongo's approach, it dovetails very nicely with a digital business. So I wonder if you could talk about that, talk about the fit and how MongoDB thinks about accelerating digital transformation and why you're different from like a traditional RDBMS. >> Sure, exactly, yeah. You had a right understanding, let me elaborate it. So we all know that the customer expectation changes day by day, because of the business agility functionality changes, how they want to experience the applications, or in apps that changes okay. And obviously this yields to the agility of the information which transforms between the multiple systems or layers. And to achieve this, obviously the way of architecting or developing the product as completely a different shift, might be moving from the monolith to microservices or event-based architecture and so on. And obviously the database has to be opt for these environment to adopt these changes, to adopt the scale of load and the other thing. Okay. And also like we see that the common, the protocol for the information exchange is JSON, and something like you, you adopt it. The database adopts it natively to that is a perfect fit. Okay. So that's where the MongoDB fits perfectly for billing or transforming the modern applications, because it's a general purpose database which accepts the JSON as a payload and stores it in a BSON format. You don't need to be, suppose like to develop any particular application or to transfer an existing application, typically they see the what is the effort required and how much, what is the cost involved in it, and how quickly I can do that. That's main important thing without disturbing the functionality here where, since it is a multimodal database in a JSON format, you don't easily build an application. Okay? Don't need a lot of transformation in case of an RDBMS, you get the JSON payload, you transform into a tabular structure or a different format, and then probably you build an ORM layer and then map it and save it. There are lot of work involved in it. There are a lot of components need to be written in between. But in case of MongoDB, what they can do is you get the information from the multiple sources. And as is, you can put it in a DB based on where, or you can transform it based on the access patterns. And then you can store it quickly. >> Dave: Got it. And I tell Dave, because today you haven't context data, which has a selected set of information. Probably tomorrow the particular customer has more information to put it. So how do you capture that? In case of an RDBMS, you need to change the schema. Once you scheme change the schema, your application breaks down. But here it magically adopts it. Like you pass the extra information, it's open for extension. It adopts it easily. You don't need to redeploy or change the schema or do something like that. >> Right. That's the genius of Mongo. And then of course, you know, in the early days people say, oh, you know, Mongo, it won't scale. And then of course we, through the cloud. And I follow very closely Atlas. I look at the numbers every quarter. I mean, overall cloud adoption is increasing like crazy, you know, our Wiki Bon analyst team. We got the big four cloud vendors just in IAS growing beyond a 115 billion this year. That's 35% on top of, you know, 80-90 billion last year. So talk more about how MongoDB fits with the cloud and how it helps with the whole migration story. 'Cause you're killing it in that space. >> Yeah. Sure. Just to add one more point on the previous question. So for continuously, for past four to five years, we have been the number one in the wanted database. >> Dave: Right Okay. That that's how like the popularity is getting done. That's how the adoption has happened. >> Dave: Right. >> I'm coming back to your question- >> Yeah let's talk about the cloud and database as a service, you guys actually have packaged that very nicely I have to say. >> Yeah. So we have spent lot of effort and time in developing Atlas, our managed database as a service, which typically gives the customer the way of just concentrating on their application rather than maintaining and managing the whole set of database or how to scale infrastructure. All those things on work is taken care. You don't need to be an expert of DB, like when you are using an Atlas. So we provide the managed database in three major cloud providers, AWS, GCP, and Azure, and also it's a purely a multicloud, you know, like you can have a primary in AWS and you have the replicated nodes in GCP or Azure. It's a purely multicloud. So that like, you don't have a cloud blocking. You feel that, okay, your business is, I mean, if this is the right for your business you are choosing the model, you think that I need to move to GCP. You don't need to bother, you easily migrate this to GCP. Okay. No vendor lock in, no cloud lock in this particular- >> So Vasanth, maybe you could talk a little bit more about Atlas and some of the differentiable features and things that you can do with Atlas that maybe people don't know about. >> Yeah, sure Dave like, Atlas is not just a manage database as a service, you know, like it's a complete data platform and it provides many features. Like for example, you build an application and probably down the line of three years, the data which you captured three years back might be an old data. Like how do you do it? Like there's no need for you to manually purge or do thing. Like we do have an online archival where you configure the data. So that like the data, which is older than two years, just purge it. So automatically this is taken care. So that like you have hot data kept in Atlas cluster and the cold data moved up to an ARKit. And also like we have a data lake where you can run a federated queries . For example, you've done an archival, but what if people want to access the data? So with data lake, what it can do is, on a single connection, you can fire a- you can run a federated queries both on the active and the archival data. That's the beauty, like you archive the data, but still you can able to query it. And we do also have a charts where like, you can build in visualization on top of the data, what you have captured. You can build in graphs or you can build in graphs and also embed these graphs as part of your application, or you can collaborate to the customers, to the CXOs and other theme. >> Dave: Got it. >> It's a complete data platform. >> Okay. Well, speaking of data platform, let's talk about Io-Tahoe's data RPA platform, and coupling that with Mongo DB. So maybe you could help us understand how you're helping with process automation, which is a very hot topic and just this whole notion of a modern application development. >> Sure. See, the process automation is more with respect to the data and how you manage this data and what to derive and build a business process on top of it. I see there are two parts into it. Like one is the source of data. How do you identify, how do you discover the data? How do you enrich the context or transform it, give a business context to it. And then you build a business rules or act on it, and then you store the data or you derive the insights or enrich it and store it into DB. The first part is completely taken by Io-Tahoe, where you can tag the data for the multiple data sources. For example, if we take an customer 360 view, you can grab the data from multiple data sources using Io-Tahoe and you discover this data, you can tag it, you can label it and you build a view of the complete customer context, and use a realm web book and then the data is ingested back to Mongo. So that's all like more sort of like server-less fashion. You can build this particular customer 360 view for example. And just to talk about the realm I spoke, right? The realm web book, realm is a backend APA that you can create on top of the data on Mongo cluster, which is available in addclass. Okay. Then once you run, the APS are ready. Data as a service, you build it as a data as a service, and you fully secure APIs, which are available. These APS can be integrated within a mobile app or an web application to build in a built in modern application. But what left out is like, just build a UI artifacts and integrate these APIs. >> Yeah, I mean we live in this API economy companies. People throw that out as sort of a buzz phrase, but Mongo lives that. I mean, that's why developers really like the Mongo. So what's your take on DevOps? Maybe you could talk a little bit about, you know, your perspective there, how you help Devs and data engineers build faster pipelines. >> Yeah, sure. Like, okay, this is the most favorite topic. Like, no, and it's a buzzword along, like all the DevOps moving out from the traditional deployment, what I learned online. So like we do support like the deployment automation in multiple ways okay, and also provide the diagnostic under the hood. We have two options in Mongo DB. One is an enterprise option, which is more on the on-prem's version. And Atlas is more with respect to the cloud one manage database service. Okay. In case of an enterprise advanced, like we do have an Ops manager and the Kubernetes operator, like a Ops manager will manage all sort of deployment automation. Upgrades, provides your diagnostics, both with respect to the hardwares, and also with respect to the MongoDB gives you a profiling, slow running queries and what you can get a context of what's working on the data using that. I'm using an enterprise operator. You can integrate with existing Kubernetes cluster, either in a different namespace on an existing namespace. And orchestrate the deployment. And in case of Atlas, we do have an Atlas-Kubernetes operator, which helps you to integrate your Kubernetes operator. And you don't need to leave your Kubernetes. And also we have worked with the cloud providers. For example, we have we haven't cloud formation templates where you can just in one click, you can just roll out an Atlas cluster with a complete platform. So that's one, like we are continuously working, evolving on the DevOps site to roll out the might be a helm chart, or we do have an operator, which has a standard (indistinct) for different types of deployments. >> You know, some really important themes here. Obviously, anytime you talk about Mongo, simplicity comes in, automation, you know, that big, big push that Io-Tahoe was making. What you said about data context was interesting because a lot of data systems, organizations, they lack context and context is very important. So auto classification and things like that. And the other thing you said about federated queries I think fits very well into the trend toward decentralized data architecture. So very important there. And of course, hybridisity. I call it hybridisity. On-prem, cloud, abstracting that complexity away and allowing people to really focus on their digital transformations. I tell ya, Vasanth, it's great stuff. It's always a pleasure chatting with Io-Tahoe partners, and really getting into the tech with folks like yourself. So thanks so much for coming on theCube. >> Thanks. Thanks, Dave. Thanks for having a nice discussion with you. >> Okay. Stay right there. We've got one more quick session that you don't want to miss.

>> Narrator: From theCUBE Studios in Palo Alto and Boston, it's theCUBE. Covering empowering the autonomous enterprise. Brought to you by Oracle Consulting. >> Welcome back to theCUBE. I'm Dave Valante. We're covering the transformation of Oracle Consulting, specifically focused on really what is what I consider a rebirth from really staff augmentation to a much more strategic partner for customers. And with me to explore that a little bit is Sherry Lautenbach. She's the Senior Vice President of Cloud Key Accounts at Oracle. And we're also joined by Pat Mongovin who's a group VP for the North American Cloud Strategy, also at Oracle. Folks, welcome to theCUBE. Thanks for coming on. >> Thanks Dave. >> Yep, thanks for having us. >> You're welcome. So Sherry, you're out talking to customers a lot, and I'm curious as to what that conversation is like, specifically as it relates to consulting. Are you bringing Oracle Consulting now into the conversation? What's that conversation like? >> Absolutely, in fact every conversation we have relating to our Cloud strategy, Oracle Consulting is part and parcel to that. They are not staff augmentation, they are actually the digital transformation arm of what we do around Cloud. So it's been really interesting to see what they've been able to do in terms of changing the narrative of what we do at Oracle from just a software company to really transforming to a Cloud provider. >> Strategy, obviously a fundamental part of any customer interaction. But what are you seeing? What underscores customer strategies? What are the business drivers for them right now? What are the catalysts that are driving their technology spending decision? >> Yeah, it's a great question Dave. I think a lot of it depends upon, especially in the times that we're in now, depends upon the industry that they're in. But, most importantly what we're seeing is right now is durability. So we want to make sure that the customers have our Oracle customers and others have an opportunity to have disaster recovery, business continuity. In this stage right now it's less about expansion per say, unless they're in an industry that's uniquely in a position for that and more about durability of the overall strategy. So when we look at that durability we think about kind of two core missions. We think about sort of back office operations and continuity and then we think about transformational revenue generation, and so when we partner with those, yes we want to make sure that we have both of those concepts in mind. >> You know we have a lot of talk about in our community about Cloud first. I think Oracle has sort of put forth the gauntlet of look, we're leading now with Cloud. You both have Cloud in your title, but obviously being Cloud first is more than that. Sherry, I wonder if you could talk about your customer's and your Cloud journey and share with us and kind of convince us that you are Cloud first. >> Sure, no that's a great question and in fact I joined Oracle about eleven months ago. I was in the industry for about 25 years and I joined specifically because I believe in what Oracle is doing around this Cloud journey. We are in our second generation of Cloud capabilities, and that's purposeful. And we do that because we've realized that where Cloud started and where we are today are two totally different things. And so we have capabilities around security, viability, extensions with autonomous, that other Cloud providers just simply don't have. And we've built these from the ground up to ensure that we can run Oracle workloads, databases and applications far better than any other Cloud provider. So it's a super exciting time to be at Oracle and it's absolutely fascinating what our customers are doing to adopt our technology. >> I want to ask you a sort of similar question. How fundamental is Cloud to organization strategies. Obviously everybody has a Cloud strategy. But I'm specifically asking as it relates to mission-critical workloads because let's face it. That's been the hardest to move into the Cloud. So, when you're out talking to customers about their strategy, and obviously dovetailing into Oracle's strategy, how do you align you know those two views? >> Yeah, it's actually a really fascinating question. So first, I think I would respond in the following way. When I think about our portfolio, I don't necessarily say Cloud first, I say customer first. And I really want the customer to make a decision based upon a deployment model that makes sense for that particular customer. Whether it's a regulated industry or the public sector or any sort of compliance considerations. So Oracle is one of the very few enterprise class Cloud providers that has, obviously, on-premise capabilities as well. And so, 99% of the cases that we see, with the exception of some of the sort of startup S&B-type folks, that are bored in the Cloud, we're dealing with the hybrid Cloud model anyway. And so that's kind of the first order of priorities, what's right for the customer and let's make sure that we get the appropriate deployment model for that customer. In terms of enterprise, essentially the workloads that we have. Whether it's Cloud or on-prem, are enterprise workloads. And those are kind of separated into two brackets. One would be for mission, sort of the revenue generation side, and one would be mission critical, sort of the back office. So Oracle is historically tremendous at the back office side, running finance, running operations, running the supply chain. Doing those things that are mission-critical. On the core mission side that's really where we're starting to focus now which is getting out into the revenue generation, the mission of the entity, with things like high-performance compute, and making sure that we have an ability to support our customers on both sides of the spectrum. >> Sherry, why are customers wanting to put mission-critical workloads in the Cloud? Is it the same sort of Cloud agility and cost, etc. I mean why not just leave it on-prem and keep it protected and maybe spend a little bit more? What's the driver for moving mission-critical workloads into the Cloud? >> Well, I think it's dependent upon what the initiatives are in the company, right? Are they looking for cost reduction, are they looking for top-line growth, are they looking for different capabilities around security that the Cloud can provide? The great thing about what we do is, we have optimized all of our workloads, both our databases and our applications into our Cloud. So we're providing additional capabilities but we're also saving a lot of money. So, we say all the time that you know put us to the test. Let us quantify what we would look like in the Cloud with our workloads versus a competitor. And we will guarantee that we will save you a lot of money. So I think that a lot of it has to do with one, it starts with potentially cost reduction, but then they start seeing additional business value driven out of and back to Oracle Consulting. What Oracle Consulting provides in terms of the business value in the Cloud is transformative for our customers. >> Talk about how you lead in these customer conversations. >> Right, well normally our entry point of one understanding what the business drivers are, right? It has to be a business-led discussion. It really isn't a technology starter point, right? It really is around what business problems are you trying to solve, and how can we help you solve them. And because we know your environments, we know what databases are employed and where they're deployed. What Oracle applications you're leveraging to run your business. We can, I think, successfully position ourselves very competitively against other Cloud providers. And I think that is then something that has resonated incredibly well with our customers, and in fact our largest customers. >> Yeah, so it seems like Oracle could solve things of an important ingredient as part of that strategy 'cause again, if it was five years ago and was just staff augmentation, that's really not a compelling conversation to have with customers. But if you can come in with a mindset of strategic partner, you're bringing in Deloitte, we've been talking to some of their professionals about the elevate program with Oracle. That is a nice lever that you can take advantage of. >> Absolutely, and in fact we've seen that, that is a huge opportunity for us because one, the partnership with Deloitte is incredibly strategic. We also partner with other companies like Accenture and DXC and IBM candidly. And Oracle Consulting is incredibly flexible in terms of what kind of partnerships and alignment they have with our customers, and it's really based on what the customer's preference is. >> Not just about feature or function, speeds and feeds, maybe you can address that, and where does Oracle Consulting fit in that equation? >> We firmly believe that every customer is going to want to have a different option for what they'll do in the Cloud and based on the provider. So we, one, we've partnered with Microsoft and we actually can interconnect our Clouds together to provide that kind of flexibility to our customers and consulting is a key component of that. So we engage our customers and talk about our Microsoft integration, our partnership or the consulting is the arm that does that work for us. So we are seeing them come about in a much different way, in a way that's differentiated between other consulting you know staff augmentation firms. >> I want to end on growth, Pat. Maybe talk about I mean Cloud, Cloud is the growth business, you look at Oracle's business, everybody's business. As Cloud is growing, everything else is either hanging on or declining, so it's all about growth. How do you drive growth, what is Cloud's role in terms of the growth strategy, and maybe add some color to that narrative. >> From a product perspective, I think we're sort of a luxury of riches around the autonomous capability which we haven't talked about. So that's something that's incredibly unique to Oracle. The autonomous database and all the autonomous services that we're rolling out. And that autonomous gives back to what we talked about earlier around security, around performance, around scalability and all these things. So that ultimately we're positioning the capabilities of the future but we're positioning them today. So we're a market leader in this space. We're not only is the Oracle database as you pointed out the market leader. We're a market leader in ERP Cloud and a bunch of the SaaS areas. But this autonomous segment of the market is crucial for us and crucial to our growth. >> Yeah it really is an enabler. I've been saying that it's almost compulsory for Oracle to participate and compete in the Cloud because it gives you that automation and that scale but you're talking about also setting up some future advantages of being able to take advantage of data, the combination of data, AI, and Cloud is the new superpower within the industry. Sherry, I want to end on you. Eleven months in at Oracle, let's say things work out great. You're here two, three, four years down the road, you look back. What does success look like? >> Success looks like every one of our customers moving to the Oracle Cloud and seeing incredible business value from that, partnering with Oracle Consulting. That's what my success criteria is. >> Guys, well listen. Thanks so much for coming on theCUBE where we've been tracking this transformation of Oracle Consulting and one of the things that's very clear as Oracle's obviously serious about Cloud but also serious about bringing in new talent and new skillsets, you're really not only transform Oracle but help transform your customers, so thank you for your time, really appreciate it. >> Thanks so much. >> Yep, you bet, thank you. >> All right, and thank you everybody for watching. This is Dave Valante for theCUBE. We'll see you next time. (bumper music)

>>from the Silicon Angle Media office in Boston, Massachusetts. It's the Cube now here's your host, Dave Vellante. >>Hello, everyone. And welcome to this breaking analysis. We're here to assess the VM Ware v Sphere seven announcement, which is the general availability of so called Project Pacific. VM Ware has called this the biggest change to V sphere in the last 10 years. Now Project Specific Pacific supports kubernetes and natively in VM Ware environments. Why is this important? This is critical for multi and hybrid cloud because Kubernetes and its surrounding orchestration enable application portability and management. Yeah, as we've been reporting, VM Ware is one of the big players eyeing multi cloud, along with a crowded field of aspirants that include IBM with Red hat, Microsoft, Cisco, Google and a host of specialists in the ecosystem. Like how she and rancher as well play. Some players have focused in their respective stack swim lanes like security and data protection, storage, networking, etcetera. And with me to dig into this announcement is stew. Minutemen's Do is a senior analyst at Wiki Bond and co host of The Cube is too good to see you and let's get into it great to talk about this state. Okay, so the Sphere seven, what is being announced? And why is it relevant? >>Yes. So, David, as you said in the open, this is the general availability of what they talked about at VM World 2019 as Project Pacific. So it really is integrating kubernetes into V sphere. The VM ware, of course, will position this is that they're now enabling, you know, the 90% of the data centers around the world that have VM ware. Hey, your kubernetes enabled. Congratulations. You're cloud native. Everything like that. Only being a little facetious here. But this is very important. How do we get from where we were to live in this more cloud? Native environments. So containers in general and kubernetes specifically are being a first class citizen. There's a lot of work, Dave, and my understanding this has been going on for a number of years. You know, it's not like they just started working at this six months ago. A overhaul to how this works. Because it's not just we're going to stick a couple of containers on top of, you know, the guest operating system in the virtual machine. But there is a supervisor cluster for kubernetes at the hyper visor level. And there's a lot of, you know, in the weeds things that we're all trying to understand and figure out because you've got you know, we've got a hyper visor and you've got VM. And now you've got the containers and kubernetes on. Some of them are living in my data center. Some VM ware, of course, lives on multiple clouds like the VM ware on AWS. Solutions of this will go there on and, you know, how do I manage that? How does this impact my operations? You know, how did this change my application portfolio? Because, you know, the early value proposition for VM Ware always was. Hey, you're gonna put VM ware on there. You don't need to touch your applications. Everything runs like it did before you were running windows APS on a physical server. You move into virtual. It's all great. There's a lot of nuance and complexity. So when VM Ware says this is the biggest change in a decade probably is, I think back to you know, I remember when the fx 2.0, rolled out in V motion really changed the landscape. That was big V balls. Move to really ah storage. To really understand that architecture and really fix storage was was a huge undertaking that took many years. This this definitely stacks up with some of those previous changes to really change the way that we think about VM Ware. I think the advertising you have even seen from being where some places is don't think of them as VM ware their cloud where our container ware with like because vm zehr still there. But VM Ware is much more than VMS today, >>so this feels like it's bm were trying to maintain its relevance in a cloud native world and really solidify its because, let's face it, VM Ware is a platform that Pat Gelsinger's has ride. The Waves tried many times in many angles to try to ride the cloud wave, and it's finally settled on the partnerships with AWS specifically. But others on DSO really Is this their attempt to become cloud native, not get left behind and be cloud naive? His many say >>Yeah, great question, David. Absolutely. There's the question as to you know what's happening with my applications, you know lots of customers. They say, Well, I'm just going to satisfy the environments. Watched the huge growth of companies like service now workday. Those applications, well, customers don't even know what they live on. Do they live on virtualization? Environment is a containers I don't need to worry about because SAS takes care of that. If I'm building modern applications, well, I'm probably not starting with VMS. Containers are the way that most people are doing that. Or they might even be going serverless now if we take these environments. So how does VM ware make sure that they have the broadest application support? Kubernetes really won the container orchestration wars on. And this is a way that VM ware now can enable customers to move down that path to modernize their environments on. And what they wanna have is really some consistency between what's happening in the cloud and happening in the environments that they control >>themselves. Vm ware saying that containers in our first class citizen within v sphere what does that mean? Why is that important? First of all, are they really And what does that mean? And why is that important? >>Yes. So, Dave, my understanding is, you know, absolutely. It's their, You know, the nuances that you will put there is. You know, we're not just running bare metal servers with Lennox and running containers on top of it. It is. You're still sitting on top of the hyper visors. One of the things I'm trying to understand when you dig down is you know what? The device driver level VM ware always looked a little bit like Linux. But the people that use it and operate it, they're not letting people Dave, these, you know, the OS. The number one os that always ran on VM ware was Windows and the traditional applications that ran there. So when we talk about containers and we're enabling that in a kubernetes environment, there are some questions about how do we make sure that my applications get certified? Dave, you got a lot of history knowing things like s ap and Oracle. I need to make sure that we've tested everything in this works. This is not what we were running traditionally in VM ware and VM ware. Just thanks. Hey, v Sphere seven, turn the crank. Everything certified Well, I would tell customers make sure you understand that your application has been tested, that your Eyes V has certified this environment because this is definitely, as VM Ware says, a huge architectural change. So therefore, there's some ripple effects to make sure that what I'm doing in this environment stays fully supported. Of course, I'm sure VM Ware is working with their huge ecosystem to make sure that all the pieces or environment you mentioned things like data protection. We absolutely know that VM Ware is making sure the day one the data protection plugs in and supported in these environments when you're using the kind of kubernetes persona or containers solutions in V sphere. >>Well, this brings me to my next question. I mean, we were talking to Bernard Golden the other day and he was saying, You know, Kubernetes is necessary for multi cloud, but it's insufficient. And so this seems to me to be a first step and, as I say, VM ware maintaining and growing its relevance. But there's gonna be a roadmap here that goes beyond just containers and portability. There's other management factors you mentioned security of enabling the ecosystem to plug in. So maybe talk about that a little bit in terms of what's necessary to really build this out over the next >>decade. And actually, it's a great point. So, first of all, you know, V. Sphere, of course, is the core of VM Ware's business. But there's only a piece of the overall portfolio said this lives in. I believe they would consider this part of what they call their Tansu family. Tando is their cloud native overarching piece of it, and one of the updates is their product hands admission control. Which of the existing product really came out of the Hep D Oh acquisition is how we can really manage any kubernetes anywhere, and this is pure software. Dave. I'm sure you saw the most recent earnings announcement from VM Ware, and you know what's going sass. What's going subscription? VM Ware is trying to build out some of their software portfolio that that isn't kind of the more traditional shrink wrap software, so Tan Xue can manage any kubernetes environment. So, of course, day one Hey, obviously or seven, it's a kubernetes distribution. Absolutely. It's going to manage this environment and but also if I've got Cooper days from azure kubernetes from Amazon communities from other environment. Tanja can manage across all of those environments. So when when you're what VM Ware has always done. If you think back in the early days of virtualization, I had a lot of different servers. How do I manage across those environments? Well, VM ware was a layer that lived across them. VM Ware is trying to do the same thing in the cloud. Talk about multi cloud. And how do I manage that? How do we get value across them? Well, there's certain pieces that you know VM Ware is looking to enable with their management software to go across them. But there are a lot of other companies, you know, Amazon Google actually not Amazon yet for multi cloud. But Microsoft and Google absolutely spent a lot of time talking about that in the last year. A swell as you mentioned. Companies like Rancher and Hashi Corp absolutely play across What Lots of these multi cloud. Well, >>let's talk about the competition. Who do you see is the number one competitors >>Well, so the number one competitor absolutely has to be red hat, Dave. So you know, when I've been in the kubernetes ecosystem for a number of years for many years. When I talk to practitioners, the number one, you know what kubernetes you're using? Well, the answer for many years was, Well, I'm grabbing it, you know, the open source and I'm building my own stack. And the reason customers did that was because there wasn't necessarily maturity, and this was kind of leading edge, bleeding edge customers in this space. The number two besides build my own was Red Hat was because I'm a red hat customer, a lot of Lennox tooling the way of building things the way my application developers do. Things fit in that environment. And therefore, that's why Red Hat has over 2000 open shift customers leading distribution for Kubernetes. And you know, this seems purely directly targeted at that market. That red hat did you know it was a big reason why IBM spent $34 billion on the Red Hat acquisition is to go after this multi cloud opportunity. So you know, absolutely this shot across the bow because Red Hat is a partner of VM Ware's, but absolutely is also a competitive >>Well, Maritz told me years ago that's true. We're with everybody and you could see that playing out. What if you look at what VM Ware could do and some of their options if they gave it away, that would really be a shot across the bow at open shift, wouldn't it? >>Yeah, absolutely, Dave, because kubernetes is not free if you're enabling kubernetes on my Google environment, I, you know, just within the last week's awesome things that were like, Okay, wait. If you're testing an environment, yes, it is free. But, you know, started talking about the hourly charges for the management layer of kubernetes. So you know kubernetes again. A color friend, Cory Quinn. Communities absolutely is not free, and he will give you an earful and his thoughts on it s o in Amazon or Google. And absolutely, Dave, it's an important revenue stream for red hat. So if I'm vm ware and you know, maybe for some period of time, you make it a line item, it's part of my l. A. You know, a good thing for customers to look out for is when you're renegotiating your l a toe, understand? If you're going to use this, what is the impact? Because absolutely, you know, from a financial standpoint, you know, Pat Gelsinger on the VM Ware team has been doing a lot of acquisitions. Many of those Dave have been targeted at this space. You know, not to step Geo, but a bit NAMI. And even the pivotal acquisition all fit in this environment. So they've spent billions of dollars. It shouldn't be a net zero revenue to the top line of what VM Ware is doing in the space. >>So that would be an issue from Wall Street's perspective. But at the same time, it's again, they're playing the long game here. Do we have any pricing data at this point? >>So I still have not gotten clear data as to how they're doing pricing now. >>Okay, Um, and others that are in there and in the mix. We talked about Red Hat. Certainly Microsoft is in there with Arc. I've mentioned many times Cisco coming at this from a networking perspective. But who else do you see and then Antos with Google? >>Yeah. And you know, Dave, all the companies we're talking about here, you know, Pat Gelsinger has had to leverage his intel experience to how to balance that line between a partner with everybody but slowly competing against everybody. So, you know, we've spent many hours talking about the VM Ware Amazon relationship. Amazon does not admit the multi cloud a solution yet and does not have a management tool for supporting all of the kubernetes environment. But absolutely Microsoft and Google do. Cisco has strong partnerships with all the cloud environment and is doing that hybrid solution and Dave Justice nothingto expand on a little bit there. If you talk about V sphere, you say, Okay, Visa or seven trolling out Well, how long will it take most of the customer base to roll to this environment? There will be some that absolutely want to take advantage of kubernetes and will go there. But we know that is typically a multi year process to get most of the install base over onto this. And if you extend that out to where VM Ware is putting their solution into cloud environments, there's that tension between, you know, Is there a match actually, between what I have in my data center and what is in the managed environment managed by VM Ware and Amazon, or manage for to support some of the other cloud environment. So the positioning always is that you're going to do VM Ware everywhere, and therefore it's going to be consistent everywhere. Well, the devil's in the details because I have control on what's in my data center, and I might have a little bit less control to some of those managed services that I'm consuming. So absolutely something to keep a close eye on. And not just for VM, where everybody is having these concerns. Even if you talk about the native kubernetes distributions, most of the kubernetes services from the cloud providers are not, you know, immediately on the latest revision of kubernetes, >>right, So Okay, well, let's let's talk about that. Remember when open Stack first came out? It was a Hail Mary against Amazon. Yeah, well, the new Hail Mary and looks like it has more teeth is kubernetes right, because it allows portability and and and of course, you know Amazon doesn't publicly say this, but it's not. That's not good for Amazon. If you're reporting things, applications, moving things around, moving them out of the Amazon cloud, and that makes it easier. Of course, Amazon does support kubernetes right, But you've got >>alternatives. So, David, it's fascinating. So I've talked to many practitioners that have deployed kubernetes and one of the top reasons that they say that why they're using Kubernetes is so they have options with the cloud. When you also ask them what cloud they're running, they're running Amazon. Did they have planned to move off of it? Well, probably not. I had a great customer that I didn't interview with that one of the Cube con shows, and they actually started out with Azure just because it was a little further head with kubernetes and then for the services they wanted. They ended up moving to AWS and Dave. It's not a click a button and you move from one kubernetes to another. You need toe match up and say, Okay, here's the five or six services I'm using. What are the equivalent? What changes do I need to make? Multi cloud is not simple. Today, I mentioned Hashi Corp is one of those companies that help people across these environments. If you have haji solution and you're managing across multiple clouds, you look in the code and you understand that there's a lot of difference between those different clouds, and they simplify that. But don't eliminate it. Just it is not. There is not a way today. This is not a utility when you talk about the public cloud. So you know Kubernetes absolutely is existentially a little bit of a threat to Amazon but Amazon still going strong in that space. And you know that the majority of customers that have deployed kubernetes in the public cloud are doing it on Amazon just because of their position in the marketplace and what they're. >>So let's double click on that. So Jassy, an exclusive interview with John Furrier before last year's re invent, said, Look, we understand there's a lot of reasons why people might choose multiple clouds, you know, go through them in a developer preference. And I think I think, you know, people want o optionality and reduce lock in potentially. But I've always said, by the way, just as an aside, that that the risk of lock in it is far down on the list relative to business value, people will choose business value over over, you know, no lock in every time. About 15% of the customers you might not agree. Nonetheless, Jassy claimed that typically when you get into a multiple cloud environment, he didn't use the term multi cloud that it's it's not a 50 50. It's a premier primary cloud supplier. So might be 70 30 or 80 20 or even 90 10. But it's really that kind of, you know, imbalance. First of all, do you see that? And then what does that mean for how they approach of this space? Multi cloud and in particular. >>So I'm sorry. You're asking how Amazon should approach the space. And you've said that I don't think they'll >>eventually enter this market place. >>Yeah, you know, absolutely, Dave. You know, first of all, in general, yes, I do agree. It is not. There are certain financial companies that, you know, have always chosen two of everything. Because for regulation and you know certain we need to protect ourselves. We're gonna have to suppliers. We're going to keep them as even as possible. But that is a corner case. Most customers I have a primary cloud. That's what I'm doing. That what I t tries to get everybody on and you need to have Is there a reason why you want to use a secondary or tertiary cloud because there's a service that they need. Of course, Google. You often run it. It's like, Oh, well, there's certain data services that they're doing well And, of course, the business productivity solutions that Microsoft's doing where the relationship with Oracle that are driving people towards Microsoft. But just as we saw Amazon soften on their hybrid solutions, we spent a lot of time at re invent talking about all the various hybrid solutions. Um, since their customers are going to have multiple clouds on and even you take most of their customers that have M and a involved you buy another company, they might be using another cloud. As Microsoft's position in the marketplace has grown, you would expect that Amazon would have not just migration services but management services to match what customers need, especially in this kubernetes environment, seems that it seems a natural fit for them. It's possible they might just leverage, you know, partnerships with red hat VM ware, you know, in some of the other players for the time being. But if the market gets big enough and customers are asking for it, that's usually when Amazon response >>So let's let's wrap with what this means to the customer. And I've said that last decade really multi cloud was a symptom of multi vendor and not so much of the strategy that's changing. You know, clearly, jokes CIOs are being called in to clean up the crime scene on do you know, put in edicts corporate edicts around security and governance and compliance and so forth. So it started to become a complicated situation for a lot of companies. We've said that multi cloud is gonna it's gonna be they're going. People are going to put the right war load and the right cloud, etcetera, and this advantages to certain clouds. But what should customers be thinking specifically as it relates to v. Sphere seven? >>Yes. So, Dave, the biggest thing I would say that people need to look at it is that understanding in your organization that that boundary and line between infrastructure and application people have often looked at you looked at the ascendancy of VM Ware, Andi V. M's and then what's happening with cloud and containers. And we think of it from an infrastructure standpoint that I'm just changing the underlying pieces. This is where it lives and where I put things. But the really important thing is it's about my data and my applications, Dave. So if I'm moving an application to a new environment, how do I take advantage of it? You know, we don't just move it to a new environment and run it the same way we were doing it. I need to take advantage of those new environments. Kubernetes is involved in infrastructure, but the real piece is how I have my application, my developers, my app. Dev's working on this environment and therefore it might be that if VM Ware's the right environment, I'm doing a lot of it that the development team says, Hey, I need you to give me a pool and provisioned this for me and I can have my sandbox where I can move really fast. But VM Ware helped initially customers when they went from physical to virtual, move faster. From an infrastructure standpoint, what it needs to do to really enable this environment is help me move faster on the application side. And that's a big gap from VM. Ware's history is where the pivotal people and hefty O people and bit NAMI and all the new people are helping along to help that whole cloud native team. But that is a big shift from customers. So for this to be successful, it's not just, oh, the virtualization admin. He upgraded to the new thing. He made some changes and said, Okay, hey, I can give you a kubernetes cluster when you need it. It's really understanding what's going to happen on the application side in a lot of that is going to be very similar to what you're doing in cloud environments. And I think this is Dave often where your customers, they say, Oh, well, I did that cloud and it was too expensive and it was too hard, and I repatriated. Everything else is, well, you probably didn't plan properly and you didn't understand what you're getting yourself into. And you jumped into the deep end of the pool and oh, wait, I forgot how to learn how to swim. So you know, that is where we are. You know, Dave, you know the technology parts. Always the easiest piece. It's getting all of the organizational and political things sorted out. And you know the developer we know how important that is, we're seeing. It's great to see VM Ware pushing faster in this environment. Kudos to them for how fast they moved. Project Pacific to G. A. That is really impressive to see and can't wait to hear the customers roll out because if this is successful, we should be hearing great transformation stories from customers as to how this is enabling their business, enabling them to move faster on. You know, that has been what, one of the favorite stories that I've been telling with customers on the Cube last couple of years. >>The vast majority of VM Ware's business, of course, is on print, and essentially they're doing here is enabling developers in their customer base and the half a 1,000,000 customers to really develop in a cloud native manner. The question is, you know, from a ah, from a cultural standpoint, is that actually gonna happen? Or the developers gonna reject the organ and say, No, I want to develop in AWS or Microsoft in the cloud. I think VM Ware would say, We're trying to embrace no matter where they want to develop, but they're still going to be. That's interesting organizational tension or developer attention in terms of what their primary choices is. They're not. >>Yeah, Dave, Absolutely. We've been saying for years. That cloud is not a location. It is an operating model. So this is helping to enable that operating model more in the data center. There's still questions and concerns, of course around, you know, consumption on demand versus you know, whether whether you've bought the entire thing as more and more services become available in the public cloud, are those actually enabled to be able to be used, you know, in my data center hosted environment. So you know, this story is not completed, but we're definitely ready. I believe we're saying it's the multi clouds Chapter three of what? We've been watching >>you and you're seeing a major tam expansion yet again from VM Ware that started with the NSX. And then, of course, went in tow networking and storage. And now they've got a cloud security division. We're talking about the the cloud native capabilities here and and on and on, it goes to thanks for helping us break this VC seven announcement down and good job fixed. All right. And thank you for watching everybody. This is Dave Volante for stew Minimum. We'll see you next time on the Cube. >>Yeah,