>> Thank you so much for inviting me. I'd like to talk about some new understanding, on sorting circuits. We've been working on this line of work since 2017. So I'll mention the results from a few papers, to paint essentially, the frontier of our understanding. This is trying work with many wonderful collaborators. Some of these studies were also partly motivated by a somewhat different quest, that is: how to construct optimal oblivious RAM. Although, in this talk I'll mostly focus on the circuit model rather than the ORAM. At the end of the talk, however, I'll quickly mention how the circuit results are related to the optimal ORAM, and how they are not related. Like, in other words, how the circuit techniques actually depart from the techniques we use to construct optimal ORAM. I'll only have time to mention the results and you'll have to read our paper for the details. Sorting circuits have been studied for many decades. A long-standing open question in the complexity and algorithms literature is the following: Does there exist sorting circuits of o(n log n) size? So what do we know about this question? First, we know that to get anything better than (n log n), it cannot be comparison-based. Comparison-based has a well-known (n log n) lower bound. And this lower bound applies no matter whether it's the RAM model or circuit model. If we forego the comparison-based requirement, however, we know that on the RAM, sorting can be accomplished in nearly linear time. Unfortunately, these RAM algorithms, critically rely on dynamic memory axes and cannot be converted to the circuit model in a way that preserves efficiency. Okay, so we've been stuck on this question for several decades. As I mentioned, this is one of the well-known long-standing open questions in the complexity and algorithms literature. Somehow we cannot make progress either on the upper bound, and lower bound fronts. In some sense, it's almost surprising that after so many years, we still don't understand sorting circuits. So let's see why we are so stuck. On the upper bound front, we are stuck at the AKS sorting network from 1983. The AKS sorting network is comparison based, so it is actually optimal in the comparative-based model. A long-standing question is: Can we beat AKS if we forego the comparison based restriction? It turns out that we haven't made any progress at all along this front. On the lower bound side, we also seem to be pretty stuck. In fact, not only do we not know how to prove and (n log n) lower bound sorting circuits. In fact, we don't know how to prove a superlinear lower bound. And in fact, it turns out proving superlinear circuit lower bound for any problem into the n key, is beyond the reach of current techniques. Okay, despite all these long-standing barriers, we were able to make a little progress in terms of understanding sorting circuit complexity, both on the upper bound and the lower bound fronts. On the upper bound side, somewhat imprecisely speaking, we showed that sorting (n) elements, each tagged with the k-bit key can be accomplished with a circuit of size and timescale. So if, for example, K is asymptotically smaller than log n, we can actually defeat the AKS sorting network. Our result can also be viewed as a generalization of the AKS sorting circuits. And note that I'm ignoring poly log star terms in the bound. On the lower bound side, we showed that essentially the above upper bound is tight for every choice of (k), either assuming the indivisibility model or assuming the Li-Li network coding conjecture. So let me explain. The indivisibility model assumes that the element's payload strings are opaque, and the circuit does not perform any encoding or computation on the element's payload strings. And indeed, you know, almost all of the algorithms we know are, indeed, in the indivisibility model. Now the Li-Li conjecture is a well-known conjecture in the area of network coding. It posits that network coding cannot help anything beyond the standard multi-commodity flow rates in undirected graphs. So while no one knows how to prove unconditional super linear circuit low bounds, we were able to prove a conditional lower bound. And, you know, the lower bound also implies that if the Li-Li network coding conjecture is true, then one cannot build a sorting circuit of o(n log n) size for the, you know, case of general keys. So for the rest of the talk, let me say something about this upper bound and why it turns out to be very much nontrivial. In fact, it turns out that even for the 1-bit key special case, the result is very much nontrivial and there are many natural barriers towards achieving these results. So essentially in the 1-bit special keys, right, the result says we can sort 1-bit keys in the linear-sized circuits. I also want to mention that in the problem formulation, besides the 1-bit key, every element also has a payload string. And when you start, you have to carry the payload string around because otherwise had it not been the payload string, right? You could just, like, count how many ones there are, and then write down the answer. Before I talk about, you know, even why the 1-bit case has many barriers, let me actually quickly mention that the 1-bit case has a very cool implication. It implies that median can be computed in the linear-sized circuit, as well. Remember in your undergrad algorithms class, we learned the textbook Blum's algorithm for computing median on the RAM. And we know that it can be computed in linear time deterministically on the RAM. And in fact, this is one of my favorites when I teach undergrad algorithms. So you would almost expect that, I mean, of course, naturally, you should be able to do the same, you know, in the linear-sized circuit. But it turns out to be much harder than you might expect. And no one really knows how until our work. In some sense, the natural barriers for sorting 1-bit key also apply to median too. And for both of these problems, sorting 1-bit keys and median, in the circuit model, like, believe it or not, the prior best-known solution is actually AKS sorting circuits itself. And nothing better is known so far. And so to help you understand why, you know, for something so natural, like, it's so natural that if I didn't tell you it's hard, you'd almost take for granted. And, and let me explain why there are natural barriers. So the first barrier was actually described, even in Knuth's textbook from the 1970s. And, you know, the textbook said essentially, such a result would not have been possible in the comparative-based model. And the reason is because of the zero-one principle, right, so the zero-one principle is that any comparison-based sorting circuit, if it can sort zero-one keys, it can also sort general keys. So, therefore, the (n log n) lower bound for comparative-based sorting actually applies even to the 1-bit key case. Okay, well, to the best of our knowledge, our existing sorting circuit constructions indeed are in the comparison-based model. You know, it's been a natural question, like, whether we can achieve anything better using non comparison-based techniques. Nothing is known, and this is not like the RAMs model, right? In the RAM model, we know how to make use of non comparison-based techniques to get interesting results. The second barrier was actually recently shown in our own work, as well as a work by [00:09:07] and others. Okay, so it turns out for the 1-bit key special case, if you require stability in the sorting, again there's (n log n) barrier. And again, the barrier holds either assuming the indivisibility model or the Li-Li network coding conjecture. Here, stability means that for the elements with the same key, we insist that the other in the output array must respect the relative other in the input array. Okay, so to get a linear-sized sorting circuit for 1-bit keys, not only do we have to forgo the comparison-based restriction, we also have to forego stability. So finally, you know, when we overcome these barriers, and we are eventually able to construct a sorting circuit for 1-bit keys, the next question is how to upgrade it to a sorting circuit for k-bit keys. And here, we encounter another challenge. And the challenge is exactly because the 1-bit sorting circuit is not stable, right? Had it been stable, you know, a natural idea would be to use radiant sorts. But radiant sorts expects that the 1-bit sorting case, you know, is stable. So in fact, to do this upgrade, we came up with a new technique, which is like a clever two-parameter recursion technique. Okay, so I won't have time to go into details. Let me quickly comment about the techniques at a very high level. So, essentially, we start with Pippenger's self-routing super concentrator. Imprecisely speaking, if we directly converted his super concentrator construction to the circuit model, we would incur (n log n), but then we can rely on the cool observation that was actually made in the earlier work on constructing smart-depth, perfect, oblivious, parallel RAM. So in this work we observed that Pippenger's super concentrated construction actually has the online phase and the offline phase. So interestingly, the offline phase depends only on metadata, and it never looks at the element's payload strings. And also, interestingly, it's also the offline phase that's causing the (n log n). Whereas the online face is easier to implement in linear-sized circuits. So, by exploiting the fact that the offline phase operates only on metadata, we are able to use a recursive bootstrapping technique to essentially squash the (n log n) to something like (n polylog * n). So last, but not least, let me say a few words about how this is related to optimal ORAM. In optimal ORAM, we essentially need an oblivious algorithm that sorts 1-bit keys in linear time, and this is on the RAM, right? So to get that, we also rely on Pippenger's super concentrated construction, and we rely on the same offline, online insights, but then to get rid of the (n log n) in the oblivious RAM model actually almost requires, like, in some sense, the opposite techniques from the circuit model, right? So in the, on the RAM model, we know that every word has log n bits, and we can simultaneously perform log n bitwise operations in unit costs, you know, because this is like operation on a single word. So therefore on oblivious RAM, one of the core techniques we use is packing. But, you know, packing is, like, there's no free packing in the circuit model, like in a circuit model, every wire, every gate would have counted. So therefore, the algorithm tricks we use in the circuit model is actually rather different. Okay, I guess this is about as much as I can say about this line of work. To summarize, it's almost surprising that after so many years, we still don't understand sorting circuits. In fact, you know, it looks like we've been pretty stuck since 1980s. So we were able to actually push the frontier of our understanding a little bit, both in terms of upper and lower bounds. Thank you so much for your attention.

>>Good afternoon, everyone. And welcome back to the VMware Explorer. 2022 live from San Francisco. Lisa Martin, here with Dave. Valante good to be sitting next to you, sir. >>Yeah. Yeah. The big set >>And we're very excited to be welcoming buck. One of our esteemed alumni Sanja poin joins us, the CEO and president of cohesive. Nice to see >>You. Thank you, Lisa. Thank you, Dave. It's great to meet with you all the time and the new sort of setting here, but first >>Time, first time we've been in west, is that right? We've been in north. We've been in south. We've been in Las Vegas, right. But west, >>I mean, it's also good to be back with live shows with absolutely, you know, after sort of the two or three or hiatus. And it was a hard time for the whole world, but I'm kind of driving a little bit of adrenaline just being here with people. So >>You've also got some adrenaline, sorry, Dave. Yeah, you're good because you are new in the role at cohesive. You wrote a great blog that you are identified. The four reasons I came to cohesive. Tell the audience, just give 'em a little bit of a teaser about that. >>Yeah, I think you should all read it. You can Google and, and Google find that article. I talked about the people Mohi is a fantastic founder. You know, he was the, you know, the architect of the Google file system. And you know, one of the senior Google executives was on my board. Bill Corrin said one of the smartest engineers. He was the true father of hyperconverge infrastructure. A lot of the code of Nutanix. He wrote, I consider him really the father of that technology, which brought computer storage. And when he took that same idea of bringing compute to secondary storage, which is really what made the scale out architect unique. And we were at your super cloud event talking about that, Dave. Yeah. Right. So it's a people I really got to respect his smarts, his integrity and the genius, what he is done. I think the customer base, I called a couple of customers. One of them, a fortune 100 customer. I, I can't tell you who it was, but a very important customer. I've known him. He said, I haven't seen tech like this since VMware, 20 years ago, Amazon 10 years ago and now Ko. So that's special league. We're winning very much in the enterprise and that type of segment, the partners, you know, we have HPE, Cisco as investors. Amazon's an investors. So, you know, and then finally the opportunity, I think this whole area of data management and data security now with threats, like ransomware big opportunity. >>Okay. So when you were number two at VMware, you would come on and say, we'd love all our partners and of course, okay. So you know, a little bit about how to work with, with VMware. So, so when you now think about the partnership between cohesive and VMware, what are the things that you're gonna stress to your constituents on the VMware side to convince them that Hey, partnering with cohesive is gonna gonna drive more value for customers, you know, put your thumb on the scale a little bit. You know, you gotta, you gotta unfair advantage somewhat, but you should use it. So what's the narrative gonna be like? >>Yeah, I think listen with VMware and Amazon, that probably their top two partners, Dave, you know, like one of the first calls I made was to Raghu and he knew about this decision before. That's the level of trust I have in him. I even called Michael Dell, you know, before I made the decision, there's a little bit of overlap with Dell, but it's really small compared to the overlap, the potential with Dell hardware that we could compliment. And then I called four CEOs. I was, as I was making this decision, Andy Jassey at Amazon, he was formerly AWS CEO sat Nadela at Microsoft Thomas cor at Google and Arvin Christian, IBM to say, I'm thinking about this making decision. They are many of the mentors and friends to me. So I believe in an ecosystem. And you know, even Chuck Robbins, who the CEO of Cisco is an investor, I texted him and said, Hey, finally, we can be friends. >>It was harder to us to be friends with Cisco, given the overlap of NSX. So I have a big tent towards everybody in our ecosystem with VMware. I think the simple answer is there's no overlap okay. With, with the kind of the primary storage capabilities with VSAN. And by the same thing with Nutanix, we will be friends and, and extend that to be the best data protection solution. But given also what we could do with security, I think this is gonna go a lot further. And then it's all about meet the field. We have common partners. I think, you know, sort of the narrative I talked about in that blog is just like snowflake was replacing Terada and ServiceNow replace remedy and CrowdStrike, replacing Symantec, we're replacing legacy vendors. We are viewed as the modern solution cloud optimized for private and public cloud. We can help you and make VMware and vs a and VCF very relevant to that part of the data management and data security continuum, which I think could end VMware. And by the way, the same thing into the public cloud. So most of the places where we're being successful is clearly withs, but increasingly there's this discussion also about playing into the cloud. So I think both with VMware and Amazon, and of course the other partners in the hyperscaler service, storage, networking place and security, we have some big plans. >>How, how much do you see this? How do you see this multi-cloud narrative that we're hearing here from, from VMware evolving? How much of an opportunity is it? How are customers, you know, we heard about cloud chaos yesterday at the keynote, are customers, do they, do they admit that there's cloud chaos? Some probably do some probably don't how much of an opportunity is that for cohesive, >>It's tremendous opportunity. And I think that's why you need a Switzerland type player in this space to be successful. And you know, and you can't explicitly rule out the fact that the big guys get into this space, but I think it's, if you're gonna back up office 365 or what they call now, Microsoft 365 into AWS or Google workspace into Azure or Salesforce into one of those clouds, you need a Switzerland player. It's gonna be hard. And in many cases, if you're gonna back up data or you protect that data into AWS banks need a second copy of that either on premise or Azure. So it's very hard, even if they have their own native data protection for them to be dual cloud. So I think a multi-cloud story and the fact that there's at least three big vendors of cloud in, in the us, you know, one in China, if include Alibaba creates a Switzerland opportunity for us, that could be fairly big. >>And I think, you know, what we have to do is make sure while we'll be optimized, our preferred cloud is AWS. Our control plane runs there. We can't take an all in AWS stack with the control plane and the data planes at AWS to Walmart. So what I've explained to both Microsoft and AWS is that data plane will need to be multi-cloud. So I can go to an, a Walmart and say, I can back up your data into Azure if you choose to, but the control plane's still gonna be an AWS, same thing with Google. Maybe they have another account. That's very Google centric. So that's how we're gonna believe the, the control plane will be in AWS. We'll optimize it there, but the data plane will be multicloud. >>Yeah. And that's what Mo had explained at Supercloud. You know, and I talked to him, he really helped me hone in on the deployment models. Yes. Where, where, where the cohesive deployment model is instantiating that technology stack into each cloud region and each cloud, which gives you latency advantages and other advantages >>And single code based same platform. >>And then bringing it, tying it together with a unified, you know, interface. That was he, he was, he was key. In fact, I, I wrote about it recently and, and gave him and the other 29 >>Quite a bit in that session, he went deep with you. I >>Mean, with Mohi, when you get a guy who developed a Google file system, you know, who can technically say, okay, this is technically correct or no, Dave, your way off be. So I that's why I had to >>Go. I, I thought you did a great job in that interview because you probed him pretty deep. And I'm glad we could do that together with him next time. Well, maybe do that together here too, but it was really helpful. He's the, he's the, he's the key reason I'm here. >>So you say data management is ripe for disrupt disruption. Talk about that. You talked about this Switzerland effect. That sounds to me like a massive differentiator for cohesive. Why is data management right for disruption and why is cohesive the right partner to do it? >>Yeah, I think, listen, everyone in this sort of data protection backup from years ago have been saying the S Switzerland argument 18 years ago, I was a at Veras an executive there. We used the Switzerland argument, but what's changed is the cloud. And what's changed as a threat vector in security. That's, what's changed. And in that the proposition of a, a Switzerland player has just become more magnified because you didn't have a sales force or Workday service now then, but now you do, you didn't have multi-cloud. You had hardware vendors, you know, Dell, HPE sun at the time. IBM, it's now Lenovo. So that heterogeneity of, of on-premise service, storage, networking, HyperCloud, and, and the apps world has gotten more and more diverse. And I think you really need scale out architectures. Every one of the legacy players were not built with scale out architectures. >>If you take that fundamental notion of bringing compute to storage, you could almost paralyze. Imagine you could paralyze backup recovery and bring so much scale and speed that, and that's what Mo invented. So he took that idea of how he had invented and built Nutanix and applied that to secondary storage. So now everything gets faster and cheaper at scale. And that's a disruptive technology ally. What snowflake did to ator? I mean, the advantage of snowflake is when you took that same concept data, warehousing is not a new concept it's existed from since Ralph Kimball and bill Inman and the people who are fathers of data warehousing, they took that to Webscale. And in that came a disruptive force toter data, right on snowflake. And then of course now data bricks and big query, similar things. So we're doing the same thing. We just have to showcase the customers, which we do. And when large customers see that they're replacing the legacy solutions, I have a lot of respect for legacy solutions, but at some point in time of a solution was invented in 1995 or 2000, 2005. It's right. For change. >>So you use snowflake as an example, Frank SL doesn't like when I say playbook, cuz I says, Dave, I'm a situational CEO, no playbook, but there are patterns here. And one of the things he did is to your point go after, you know, Terra data with a better data warehouse, simplify scale, et cetera. And now he's, he's a constructing a Tam expansion strategy, same way he did at ServiceNow. And I see you guys following a similar pattern. Okay. You get your foot in the door. Let's face it. I mean, a lot of this started with, you know, just straight back. Okay, great. Now it's extending into data management now extending to multi-cloud that's like concentric circles in a Tam expansion strategy. How, how do you, as, as a CEO, that's part of your job is Tam expansion. >>So yeah, I think the way to think about the Tam is, I mean, people say it's 20, 30 billion, but let me tell you how you can piece it apart in size, Dave and Lisa number one, I estimate there's probably about 10 to 20 exabytes of data managed by these legacy players of on-prem stores that they back up to. Okay. So you add them all up in the market shares that they respectively are. And by the way, at the peak, the biggest of these companies got to 2 billion and then shrunk. That was Verto when I was there in 2004, 2 billion, every one of them is small and they stopped growing. You look at the IDC charts. Many of them are shrinking. We are the fastest growing in the last two years, but I estimate there's about 20 exabytes of data that collectively among the legacy players, that's either gonna stay on prem or move to the cloud. Okay. So the opportunity as they replace one of those legacy tools with us is first off to manage that 20 X by cheaper, faster with the Webscale glass offer the cloud guys, we could tip that into the cloud. Okay. >>But you can't stop there. >>Okay. No, we are not doing just backup recovery. We have a platform that can do files. We can do test dev analytics and now security. Okay. That data is potentially at a risk, not so much in the past, but for ransomware, right? How do we classify that? How do we govern that data? How do we run potential? You know, the same way you did antivirus some kind of XDR algorithms on the data to potentially not just catch the recovery process, which is after fact, but maybe the predictive act of before to know, Hey, there's somebody loitering around this data. So if I'm basically managing in the exabytes of data and I can proactively tell you what, this is, one CIO described this very simply to me a few weeks ago that I, and she said, I have 3000 applications, okay. I wanna be prepared for a black Swan event, except it's not a nine 11 planes getting the, the buildings. >>It is an extortion event. And I want to know when that happens, which of my 3000 apps I recover within one hour within one day within one week, no later than one month. Okay. And I don't wanna pay the bad guys at penny. That's what we do. So that's security discussions. We didn't have that discussion in 2004 when I was at another company, because we were talking about flood floods and earthquakes as a disaster recovery. Now you have a lot more security opportunity to be able to describe that. And that's a boardroom discussion. She needs to have that >>Digital risk. O O okay, go ahead please. I >>Was just gonna say, ransomware attack happens every what? One, every 11, 9, 11 seconds. >>And the dollar amount are going up, you know, dollar are going up. Yep. >>And, and when you pay the ransom, you don't always get your data back. So you that's not. >>And listen, there's always an ethical component. Should you do it or not do it? If you, if you don't do it and you're threatened, they may have left an Easter egg there. Listen, I, I feel very fortunate that I've been doing a lot in security, right? I mean, I built the business at, at, at VMware. We got it to over a billion I'm on the board of sneak. I've been doing security and then at SAP ran. So I know a lot about security. So what we do in security and the ecosystem that supports us in security, we will have a very carefully crafted stay tuned. Next three weeks months, you'll see us really rolling out a very kind of disciplined aspect, but we're not gonna pivot this company and become a cyber security company. Some others in our space have done that. I think that's not who we are. We are a data management and a data security company. We're not just a pure security company. We're doing both. And we do it well, intelligently, thoughtfully security is gonna be built into our platform, not voted on. Okay. And there'll be certain security things that we do organically. There's gonna be a lot that we do through partnerships, this >>Security market that's coming to you. You don't have to go claim that you're now a security vendor, right? The market very naturally saying, wow, a comprehensive security strategy has to incorporate a data protection strategy and a recovery, you know, and the things that we've talking about Mount ransomware, I want to ask you, you I've been around a long time, longer than you actually Sanjay. So, but you you've, you've seen a lot. You look, >>Thank you. That's all good. Oh, >>Shucks. So the market, I've never seen a market like this, right? I okay. After the.com crash, we said, and I know you can't talk about IPO. That's not what I'm talking about, but everything was bad after that. Right. 2008, 2000, everything was bad. I've never seen a market. That's half full, half empty, you know, snowflake beats and raises the stock, goes through the roof. Dev if it, if the area announced today, Mongo, DB, beat and Ray, that things getting crushed and, and after market never seen anything like this. It's so fed, driven and, and hard to protect. And, and of course, I know it's a marathon, you know, it's not a sprint, but have you ever seen anything like this? >>Listen, I walk worked through 18 quarters as COO of VMware. You've seen where I've seen public quarters there and you know, was very fortunate. Thanks to the team. I don't think I missed my numbers in 18 quarters except maybe once close. But we, it was, it's tough. Being a public company of the company is tough. I did that also at SAP. So the journey from 10 to 20 billion at SAP, the journey from six to 12 at VMware, that I was able to be fortunate. It's humbling because you, you really, you know, we used to have this, we do the earnings call and then we kind of ask ourselves, what, what do you think the stock price was gonna be a day and a half later? And we'd all take bets as to where this, I think you just basically, as a, as a sea level executive, you try to build a culture of beaten, raise, beaten, raise, beaten, raise, and you wanna set expectations in a way that you're not setting them up for failure. >>And you know, it's you, there's, Dave's a wonderful CEO as is Frank Salman. So it's hard for me to dissect. And sometimes the market are fickle on some small piece of it. But I think also the, when I, I encourage people say, take the long term view. When you take the long term view, you're not bothered about the ups and downs. If you're building a great company over the length of time, now it will be very clear over the arc of many, many quarters that you're business is trouble. If you're starting to see a decay in growth. And like, for example, when you start to see a growth, start to decay significantly by five, 10 percentage points, okay, there's something macro going on at this company. And that's what you won't avoid. But these, you know, ups and downs, my view is like, if you've got both Mongo D and snowflake are fantastic companies, they're CEOs of people I respect. They've actually kind of an, a, you know, advisor to us as a company, you knows moat very well. So we respect him, respect Frank, and you, there have been other quarters where Frank's, you know, the Snowflake's had a down result after that. So you build a long term and they are on the right side of history, snowflake, and both of them in terms of being a modern cloud relevant in the case of MongoDB, open source, two data technology, that's, you know, winning, I, I, we would like to be like them one day >>As, as the new CEO of cohesive, what are you most ask? What are you most anxious about and what are you most excited about? >>I think, listen, you know, you know, everything starts with the employee. You, I always believe I wrote my first memo to all employees. There was an article in Harvard business review called service profit chains that had a seminal impact on my leadership, which is when they studied companies who had been consistently profitable over a long period of time. They found that not just did those companies serve their customers well, but behind happy engaged customers were happy, engaged employees. So I always believe you start with the employee and you ensure that they're engaged, not just recruiting new employees. You know, I put on a tweet today, we're hiring reps and engineers. That's okay. But retaining. So I wanna start with ensuring that everybody, sometimes we have to make some unfortunate decisions with employees. We've, we've got a part company with, but if we can keep the best and brightest retained first, then of course, you know, recruiting machine, I'm trying to recruit the best and brightest to this company, people all over the place. >>I want to get them here. It's been, so I mean, heartwarming to come Tom world and just see people from all walks, kind of giving me hugs. I feel incredibly blessed. And then, you know, after employees, it's customers and partners, I feel like the tech is in really good hands. I don't have to worry about that. Cuz Mo it's in charge. He's got this thing. I can go to bed knowing that he's gonna keep innovating the future. Maybe in some of the companies I've worried about the tech innovation piece, but most doing a great job there. I can kind of leave that in his cap of hands, but employees, customers, partners, that's kind of what I'm focused on. None of them are for me, like a keep up at night, but there are are opportunities, right? And sometimes there's somebody you're trying to salvage to make sure or somebody you're trying to convince to join. >>But you know, customers, I love pursuing customers. I love the win. I hate to lose. So fortune 1000 global, 2000 companies, small companies, big companies, I wanna win every one of them. And it's not, it's not like, I mean, I know all these CEOs in my competitors. I texted him the day I joined and said, listen, I'll compete, honorably, whatever have you, but it's like Kobe and LeBron Kobe's passed away now. So maybe it's Steph Curry. LeBron, whoever your favorite athlete is you put your best on the court and you win. And that's how I am. That's nothing I've known no other gear than to put my best on the court and win, but do it honorably. It should not be the one that you're doing it. Unethically. You're doing it personally. You're not calling people's names. You're competing honorably. And when you win the team celebrates, it's not a victory for me. It's a victory for the team. >>I always think I'm glad that you brought up the employee experience and we're almost out of time, but I always think the employee experience and the customer experience are inextricably linked. This employees have to be empowered. They have to have the data that they need to do their job so that they can deliver to the customer. You can't do one without the other. >>That's so true. I mean, I, it's my belief. And I've talked also on this show and others about servant leadership. You know, one of my favorite poems is Brenda Naor. I went to bed in life. I dreamt that life was joy. I woke up and realized life was service. I acted in service was joy. So when you have a leadership model, which is it's about, I mean, there's lots of layers between me and the individual contributor, but I really care about that sales rep and the engineer. That's the leaf level of the organization. What can I get obstacle outta their way? I love skipping levels of going right. That sales rep let's go and crack this deal. You know? So you have that mindset. Yeah. I mean, you, you empower, you invert the pyramid and you realize the power is at the leaf level of an organization. >>So that's what I'm trying to do. It's a little easier to do it with 2000 people than I dunno, either 20, 20, 2000 people or 35,000 reported me at VMware. And I mean a similar number at SAP, which was even bigger, but you can shape this. Now we are, we're not a startup anymore. We're a midsize company. We'll see. Maybe along the way, there's an IP on the path. We'll wait for that. When it comes, it's a milestone. It's not the destination. So we do that and we are, we, I told people we are gonna build this green company. Cohesive is gonna be a great company like VMware one day, like Amazon. And there's always a day of early beginnings, but we have to work harder. This is kind of like the, you know, eight year old version of your kid, as opposed to the 18 year old version of the kid. And you gotta work a little harder. So I love it. Yeah. >>Good luck. Awesome. Thank you. Best of luck. Congratulations. On the role, it sounds like there's a tremendous amount of adrenaline, a momentum carrying you forward Sanjay. We always appreciate having you. Thank >>You for having in your show. >>Thank you. Our pleasure, Lisa. Thank you for Sanja poin and Dave ante. I'm Lisa Martin. You're watching the cube live from VMware Explorer, 2022, stick around our next guest. Join us momentarily.

>>Good afternoon, everyone. And welcome back to the Cube's day two coverage of VMware Explorer, 2022 live from San Francisco. Lisa Martin, here with Dave. Valante good to be sitting next to you, sir. >>Yeah, the big >>Set and we're very excited to be welcoming back. One of our esteemed alumni Sanja poin joins us, the CEO and president of cohesive. Nice to see >>You. Thank you, Lisa. Thank you, Dave. It's great to meet with you all the time and the new sort of setting here, but >>First time we've been in west, is that right? We've been in north. We've been in south. We've been in Las Vegas, right. But west >>Nice. Well, I mean, it's also good to be back with live shows with absolutely, you know, after sort of the two or three or high. And it was a hard time for the whole world, but I'm kind of driving a little bit of adrenaline just being here with people. So >>You've also got some adrenaline, sorry, Dave. Yeah, you're good because you are new in the role at cohesive. You wrote a great blog that you are identified. The four reasons I came to cohesive. Tell the audience, just give 'em a little bit of a teaser about that. >>Yeah, I think you should all read it. You can Google and, and Google find that article. I talked about the people Mohi is a fantastic founder. You know, he was the, you know, the architect of the Google file system. And you know, one of the senior Google executives who was on my board, bill Corrin said one of the smartest engineers. He was the true father of hyperconverge infrastructure. A lot of the code of Nutanix. He wrote, I consider him really the father of that technology, which brought computer storage. And when he took that same idea of bringing compute to secondary storage, which is really what made the scale out architect unique. And we were at your super cloud event talking about that, Dave. Yeah. Right. So it's a people I really got to respect his smarts, his integrity and the genius, what he is done. >>I think the customer base, I called a couple of customers. One of them, a fortune 100 customer. I, I can't tell you who it was, but a very important customer. I've known him. He said, I haven't seen tech like this since VMware, 20 years ago, Amazon 10 years ago. And now COER so that's special league. We're winning very much in the enterprise and that type of segment, the partners, you know, we have HPE, Cisco as investors, Amazon's an investors. So, you know, and then finally the opportunity, I think this whole area of data management and data security now with threats, like ransomware big opportunity. >>Sure. Okay. So when you were number two at VMware, you would come on and say, we'd love all our partners and of course, okay. So you know, a little bit about how to work with, with VMware. So, so when you now think about the partnership between cohesive and VMware, what are the things that you're gonna stress to your constituents on the VMware side to convince them that Hey, partnering with cohesive is gonna gonna drive more value for customers, you know, put your thumb on the scale a little bit. You know, you gotta, you gotta unfair advantage somewhat, but you should use it. So what's the narrative gonna be like? >>Yeah. I think listen with VMware and Amazon, that probably their top two partners, Dave, you know, like one of the first calls I made was to Raghu and he knew about this decision before. That's the level of trust I have in him. I even called Michael Dell, you know, before I made the decision, there's a little bit of an overlap with Dell, but it's really small compared to the overlap, the potential with Dell hardware that we could compliment. And then I called four CEOs. I was, as I was making this decision, Andy Jassy at Amazon, he was formerly AWS CEO sat Nadela at Microsoft Thomas cor at Google and Arvin Christian at IBM to say, I'm thinking about this making decision. They are many of the mentors and friends to me. So I believe in an ecosystem. And you know, even Chuck Robbins, who the CEO of Cisco is an investor, I texted him and said, Hey, finally, we can be friends. >>It was harder to us to be friends with Cisco, given the overlap of NEX. So I have a big tent towards everybody in our ecosystem with VMware. I think the simple answer is there's no overlap okay. With, with the kind of the primary storage capabilities with VSAN. And by the same thing with Nutanix, we will be friends and, and extend that to be the best data protection solution. But given also what we could do with security, I think this is gonna go a lot further. And then it's all about meet in the field. We have common partners. I think, you know, sort of the narrative I talked about in that blog is just like snowflake was replacing Terada and ServiceNow replace remedy and CrowdStrike, replacing Symantec, we're replacing legacy vendors. We are viewed as the modern solution cloud optimized for private and public cloud. We can help you and make VMware and VSAN and VCF very relevant to that part of the data management and data security continuum, which I think could enhance VMware. And by the way, the same thing into the public cloud. So most of the places where we're being successful is clearly withs, but increasingly there's this discussion also about playing into the cloud. So I think both with VMware and Amazon, and of course the other partners in the hyperscaler service, storage, networking place and security, we have some big plans. >>How, how much do you see this? How do you see this multi-cloud narrative that we're hearing here from, from VMware evolving? How much of an opportunity is it? How are customers, you know, we heard about cloud chaos yesterday at the keynote, are customers, do they, do they admit that there's cloud chaos? Some probably do some probably don't how much of an opportunity is that for cohesive, >>It's tremendous opportunity. And I think that's why you need a Switzerland type player in this space to be successful. And you know, and you can't explicitly rule out the fact that the big guys get into this space, but I think it's, if you're gonna back up office 365 or what they call now, Microsoft 365 into AWS or Google workspace into Azure or Salesforce into one of those clouds, you need a Switzerland player it's gonna be out. And in many cases, if you're gonna back up data or you protect that data into AWS banks need a second copy of that either on premise or Azure. So it's very hard, even if they have their own native data protection for them to be dual cloud. So I think a multi-cloud story and the fact that there's at least three big vendors of cloud in, in the us, you know, one in China, if include Alibaba creates a Switzerland opportunity for us, that could be fairly big. >>And I think, you know, what we have to do is make sure while we'll be optimized, our preferred cloud is AWS. Our control plane runs there. We can't take an all in AWS stack with the control plane and the data planes at AWS to Walmart. So what I've explained to both Microsoft and AWS is that data plane will need to be multicloud. So I can go to an a Walmart and say, I can back up your data into Azure if you choose to, but the control, plane's still gonna be an AWS, same thing with Google. Maybe they have another account. That's very Google centric. So that's how we're gonna play the, the control plane will be in AWS. We'll optimize it there, but the data plane will be multi-cloud. >>Yeah. And that's what Mo had explained at Supercloud. You know, and I talked to, he really helped me hone in on the deployment models. Yes. Where, where, where the cohesive deployment model is instantiating that technology stack into each cloud region and each cloud, which gives you latency advantages and other advantages >>And single code based same platform, >>And then bringing it, tying it together with a unified, you know, interface. That was he, he was, he was key. In fact, I, I wrote about it recently and, and gave him and the other 20, >>Quite a bit in that session. Yeah. So he went deep with you. I >>Mean, with Mohi, when you get a guy who developed a Google file system, you know, who can technically say, okay, this is technically correct or no, Dave, your way off be so I that's why I had to >>Go. I, I thought you did a great job in that interview because you probed him pretty deep and I'm glad we could do that together with him next time. Well, maybe do that together here too, but it was really helpful. He's the, he's the, he's the key reason I'm here. >>So you say data management is ripe for disrupt disruption. Talk about that. You talked about this Switzerland effect. That sounds to me like a massive differentiator for cohesive. Why is data management right. For disruption and why is cohesive the right partner to do it? >>Yeah, I think, listen, everyone in this sort of data protection backup from years ago have been saying the S Switzerland argument 18 years ago, I was a at Veras an executive there. We used the Switzerland argument, but what's changed is the cloud. And what's changed as a threat vector in security. That's, what's changed. And in that the proposition of a, a Switzerland player has just become more magnified because you didn't have a sales force or Workday service now then, but now you do, you didn't have multi-cloud. You had hardware vendors, you know, Dell, HPE sun at the time. IBM, it's now Lenovo. So that heterogeneity of, of on-premise service, storage, networking, HyperCloud, and, and the apps world has gotten more and more diverse. And I think you really need scale out architectures. Every one of the legacy players were not built with scale out architectures. >>If you take that fundamental notion of bringing compute to storage, you could almost paralyze. Imagine you could paralyze backup recovery and bring so much scale and speed that, and that's what Mo invented. So he took that idea of how he had invented and built Nutanix and applied that to secondary storage. So now everything gets faster and cheaper at scale. And that's a disruptive technology ally. What snowflake did to ator? I mean, the advantage of snowflake is when you took that same concept data, warehousing is not a new concept it's existed from since Ralph Kimble and bill Inman and the people who are fathers of data warehousing, they took that to Webscale. And in that came a disruptive force toter data, right? And snowflake. And then of course now data bricks and big query, similar things. So we're doing the same thing. We just have to showcase the customers, which we do. And when large customers see that they're replacing the legacy solutions, I have a lot of respect for legacy solutions, but at some point in time of a solution was invented in 1995 or 2000, 2005. It's right. For change. >>So you use snowflake as an example, Frank sluman doesn't like when I say playbook, cuz I says, Dave, I'm a situational. See you no playbook, but there are patterns here. And one of the things he did is to your point go after, you know, Terra data with a better data warehouse, simplify scale, et cetera. And now he's, he's a constructing a Tam expansion strategy, same way he did at ServiceNow. And I, you guys following a similar pattern. Okay. You get your foot in the door. Let's face it. I mean, a lot of this started with, you know, just straight back. Okay, great. Now it's extending into data management now extending to multi-cloud that's like concentric circles in a Tam expansion strategy. How, how do as, as a CEO, that's part of your job is Tam expansion. >>So yeah, I think the way to think about the Tam is, I mean, people say it's 20, 30 billion, but let me tell you how you can piece it apart in size, Dave and Lisa number one, I estimate there's probably about 10 to 20 exabytes of data managed by these legacy players of on-prem stores that they back up to. Okay. So you add them all up in the market shares that they respectively are. And by the way, at the peak, the biggest of these companies got to 2 billion and then shrunk. That was Verto when I was there in 2004, 2 billion, every one of them is small and they stopped growing. You look at the IDC charts. Many of them are shrinking. We are the fastest growing in the last two years, but I estimate there's about 20 exabytes of data that collectively among the legacy players, that's either gonna stay on prem or move to the cloud. Okay. So the opportunity as they replace one of those legacy tools with us is first off to manage that 20 X bike cheaper, faster with the Webscale, a glass or for the cloud guys, we could tip that into the cloud. Okay. >>But you can't stop there. >>Okay. No, we are not doing just back recovery. Right. We have a platform that can do files. We can do test dev analytics and now security. Okay. That data is potentially at a risk, not so much in the past, but for ransomware, right? How do we classify that? How do we govern that data? How do we run potential? You know, the same way you did antivirus some kind of XDR algorithms on the data to potentially not just catch the recovery process, which is after fact, but maybe the predictive act of before to know, Hey, there's somebody loitering around this data. So if I'm basically managing in the exabytes of data and I can proactively tell you what, this is, one CIO described this very simply to me a few weeks ago that I, and she said, I have 3000 applications, okay. I wanna be prepared for a black Swan event, except it's not a nine 11 planes hitting the, the buildings. >>It is an extortion event. And I want to know when that happens, which of my 3000 apps I recover within one hour within one day within one week, no lay than one month. Okay. And I don't wanna pay the bad guys of penny. That's what we do. So that's security discussions. We didn't have that discussion in 2004 when I was at another company, because we were talking about flood floods and earthquakes as a disaster recovery. Now you have a lot more security opportunity to be able to describe that. And that's a boardroom discussion. She needs to have that >>Digital risk. O O okay, go ahead please. I >>Was just gonna say, ransomware attack happens every what? One, every 11, 9, 11 seconds. >>And the dollar amount are going up, you know, dollar of what? >>Yep. And, and when you pay the ransom, you don't always get your data back. So you that's >>Not. And listen, there's always an ethical component. Should you do it or not do it? If you, if you don't do it and you're threatened, they may have left an Easter egg there. Listen, I, I feel very fortunate that I've been doing a lot in security, right? I mean, I built the business at, at, at VMware. We got it to over a billion I'm on the board of sneak. I've been doing security and then at SAP ran. So I know a lot about security. So what we do in security and the ecosystem that supports us in security, we will have a very carefully crafted stay tuned. Next three weeks months, you'll see us really rolling out a very kind of disciplined aspect, but we're not gonna pivot this company and become a cyber security company. Some others in our space have done that. I think that's not who we are. We are a data management and a data security company. We're not just a pure security company. We're doing both. And we do it well, intelligently, thoughtfully security is gonna be built into our platform, not bolted on, okay. And there'll be certain security things that we do organically. There's gonna be a lot that we do through partnerships, >>This security market that's coming to you. You don't have to go claim that you're now a security vendor, right? The market very naturally saying, wow, a comprehensive security strategy has to incorporate a data protection strategy and a recovery, you know, and the things we've talking about, Mount ransomware, I want to ask you, you know, I've been around a long time, longer than you actually Sanjay. So, but you you've, you've seen a lot. You look incredibly, >>Thank you. That's all good. Oh, >>Shocks. So the market, I've never seen a market like this, right? I okay. After the.com crash, we said, and I know you can't talk about IPO. That's not what I'm talking about, but everything was bad after that. Right. 2008, 2000, everything was bad. I've never seen a market. That's half full, half empty, you know, snowflake beats and raises the stock, goes through the roof. Dev if it, the area announced today, Mongo, DB, beat and Ray, that things getting crushed. And, and after market never seen anything like this. It's so fed, driven and, and hard to protect. And, and of course, I know it's a marathon, you know, it's not a sprint, but have you ever seen anything like this? >>Listen, I walk worked through 18 quarters as COO of VMware. You seen, I've seen public quarters there and you know, was very fortunate. Thanks to the team. I don't think I missed my numbers in 18 quarters except maybe once close. But we, it was, it's tough. Being a public company. Officer of the company is tough. I did that also at SAP. So the journey from 10 to 20 billion at SAP, the journey from six to 12 at VMware, that I was able to be fortunate. It's humbling because you, you really, you know, we used to have this, we do the earnings call and then we kind of ask ourselves, what, what do you think the stock price was gonna be a day and a half later? And we'd all take bets as to wear this. I think you just basically, as a, as a sea level executive, you try to build a culture of beaten, raise, beaten, raise, beaten, raise, and you wanna set expectations in a way that you're not setting them up for failure. >>And you know, it's you, there's, Dave's a wonderful CEO as is Frank movement. So it's hard for me to dissect. And sometimes the market are fickle on some small piece of it. But I think also the, when I, I encourage people say, take the long term view. When you take the long term view, you're not bothered about the ups and downs. If you're building a great company over the length of time, now it will be very clear over the arc of many, many quarters that you're business is trouble. If you're starting to see a decay in growth. And like, for example, when you start to see a growth, start to decay significantly by five, 10 percentage points, okay, there's something macro going on at this company. And that's what you won't avoid. But these, you know, ups and downs, my view is like, if you've got both Mongo, DIA and snowflake are fantastic companies, they're CEOs of people I respect. They've actually a kind of an, a, you know, advisor to us as a company, you knows mot very well. So we respect him, respect Frank, and you, there have been other quarters where Frank's, you know, the snowflakes had a down result after that. So you build a long term and they are on the right side of history, snowflake, and both of them in terms of being a modern cloud relevant in the case of MongoDB open source to data technology, that's, you know, winning, I, we would like to be like them one day >>As, as the new CEO of cohesive, what are you most, what are you most anxious about? And what are you most excited about? >>I think, listen, you know, you know, everything starts with the employee. You, I always believe I wrote my first memo to all employees. There was an article in Harvard business review called service profit chains that had a seminal impact on my leadership, which is when they studied companies who had been consistently profitable over a long period of time. They found that not just did those companies serve their customers well, but behind happy engaged customers were happy, engaged employees. So I always believe you start with the employee and you ensure that they're engaged, not just recruiting new employees. You know, I put on a tweet today, we're hiring reps and engineers. That's okay. But retaining. So I wanna start with ensuring that everybody, sometimes we have to make some unfortunate decisions with employees. We've, we've got a part company with, but if we can keep the best and brightest retained first, then of course, you know, recruiting machine, I'm trying to recruit the best and brightest to this company, people all over the place. >>I want to get them here. It's been, so I mean, heartwarming to come to world and just see people from all walks, kind of giving me hugs. I feel incredibly blessed. And then, you know, after employees, it's customers and partners, I feel like the tech is in really good hands. I don't have to worry about that. Cuz Mo it's in charge. He's got this thing. I can go to bed knowing that he's gonna keep innovating the future. Maybe in some of the companies, I would worried about the tech innovation piece, but most doing a great job there. I can kind of leave that in his cap of hands, but employees, customers, partners, that's kind of what I'm focused on. None of them are for me, like a keep up at night, but they're are opportunities, right? And sometimes there's somebody you're trying to salvage to make sure or somebody you're trying to convince to join. >>But you know, customers, I love pursuing customers. I love the win. I hate to lose. So fortune 1000 global, 2000 companies, small companies, big companies, I wanna win every one of 'em and it's not, it's not like, I mean, I know all these CEOs in my competitors. I texted him the day I joined and said, listen, I'll compete, honorably, whatever have you, but it's like Kobe and LeBron Kobe's passed away now. So maybe it's step Curry. LeBron, whoever your favorite athlete is you put your best on the court and you win. And that's how I am. That's nothing I've known no other gear than to put my best on the court and win, but do it honorably. It should not be the one that you're doing it. Unethically. You're doing it personally. You're not calling people's names. You're competing honorably. And when you win the team celebrates, it's not a victory for me, it's a victory for the team. >>I always think I'm glad that you brought out the employee experience and we're almost out of time, but I always think the employee experience and the customer experience are inextricably linked. This employees have to be empowered. They have to have the data that they need to do their job so that they can deliver to the customer. You can't do one without the other. >>That's so true. I mean, I, it's my belief. And I've talked also on this show and others about servant leadership. You know, one of my favorite poems is Brenda NA Tago. I went to bed in life. I dreamt that life was joy. I woke up and realized life was service. I acted in service was joy. So when you have a leadership model, which is it's about, I mean, there's lots of layers between me and the individual contributor, but I really care about that sales rep and the engineer. That's the leaf level of the organization. What can I get obstacle outta their way? I love skipping levels and going write that sales rep let's go and crack this deal. You know? So you have that mindset. Yeah. I mean, you, you empower, you invert the pyramid and you realize the power is at the leaf level of an organization. >>So that's what I'm trying to do. It's a little easier to do it with 2000 people than I dunno, either 20, 20, 2000 people or 35,000 reported me at VMware. And I mean a similar number at SAP, which was even bigger, but you can shape this. Now we are, we're not a startup anymore. We're a mid-size company. We'll see. Maybe along the way, there's an IP on the path. We'll wait for that. When it comes, it's a milestone. It's not the destination. So we do that and we are, we, I told people we are gonna build this green company. Cohesive is gonna be a great company like VMware one day, like Amazon. And there's always a day of early beginnings, but we have to work harder. This is kind of like the, you know, eight year old version of your kid, as opposed to the 18 year old version of the kid. And you gotta work a little harder. So I love it. Yeah. >>Good luck. Awesome. Thank you too. Best of luck. Congratulations on the role, it sounds like there's a tremendous amount of adrenaline, a momentum carrying you forward Sanja. We always appreciate having thank >>You for having in your show. >>Thank you. Our pleasure, Lisa. Thank you for Sanjay poin and Dave ante. I'm Lisa Martin. You're watching the cube live from VMware Explorer, 2022, stick around our next guest. Join us momentarily.

>>from around the globe. It's the Cube with digital coverage of AWS reinvent 2020 sponsored by Intel, AWS and our community partners. >>Hello and welcome back to the cubes Virtual coverage of AWS reinvent 2020. Um, John for your host with a cube virtual were not there in person, but we're gonna do it our job with the best remote we possibly can. Where? Wall to wall coverage on the AWS reinvent site as well as on demand on the Cube. Three new 3 65 platform. We got some great power panel analysts here to dig in and discuss Partner Day for a W S what it means for the customer. What it means for the enterprise, the buyer, the people trying to figure out who to buy from and possibly new partners. How can they re engineer and reinvent their company to partner better with Amazon, take advantage of the benefits, but ultimately get more sales? We got Tim Crawford, star Beat Joel and Day Volonte, Friends of the Cube. We all know him on Twitter, You guys, the posse, the Cube policy. Thanks for coming on. I'm sure it's good guys entertaining and we're >>hanging out drinking beer. Oh, my God. That'd be awesome. You guys. >>Great to have you on. I wanted to bring you on because it's unique. Cross section of perspectives. And this isn't This is from the end user perspective. And, Tim, you've been talking about the c x o s for years. You expert in this? Sorry. You're taking more from a cloud perspective. You've seen the under the hood. What's happening? Let's all put it together. If your partner Okay, first question to the group. I'm a partner. Do I win with Amazon, or do I lose with Amazon? First question. >>Yeah, I'll jump in. I'll say, you know, regardless you win, you win with Amazon. I think there's a lot of opportunity for partners with Amazon. Um, you have to pick your battles, though. You have to find the right places where you can carve out a space that isn't too congested but also isn't really kind of fettered with a number of incumbents. And so if you're looking at the enterprise space, I think that there is a ton of potential because, let's face it, >>Amazon >>doesn't have all of the services packaged in a way that the enterprise can consume. And I think that leaves a lot of fertile ground for s eyes and I SVS to jump in and be able to connect those dots so I'd say it's win, win >>start be if you're like a so cohesively onstage. Jackson's coming out talking about China, the chips and data. If you're like a vendor and I s V you're a startup or your company trying to reinvent How do you see Amazon as a partner? >>Yeah, I see Amazon as a big market for me. You know, it increased my sort of tam, if you will. Uh, the one big sort off trend is that the lines between technology providers and service providers are blurred. Actually, it's flipping. I believe it will flip at some time. We will put consume technology from service providers, and they are becoming technology providers. Actually, they're not just being pipe and power kind of cloud. They are purely software, very high sort of highly constructed machinery, if you will. Behind the scenes with software. >>That's >>what Amazon is, uh, big machine. If you are, and you can leverage that and then you can help your customers achieve their business called as a partner. I think's the women and the roll off. Actually, Assize is changing, I believe a size. Well, I thought they were getting slow, sidetracked by the service providers. But now they have to actually change their old the way they they used to get these, you know, shrink wrap software, and then install and configure and all that stuff. Now it's in a cloud >>on >>they have to focus a little more on services, and and some of the s eyes are building tools for multi cloud consumption and all that. So things are changing under under this whole big shift to go out. >>I mean, I think if you're in S I and you're lifting and shifting, you make a few bucks and helping people do that deal with the tech. But I think we're the rial. Money is the business transformation, and you find the technology is there, it's it's another tool in the bag. But if you can change your operating model, that's gonna drive telephone numbers to the bottom line. That's a boardroom discussion, and that's where the real dollars are for s eyes. That's like that's why guys like Accent you're leading leading into the cloud Big time >>e think I think you're absolutely right, David. I think that's that's one aspect that we have to kind of call out is you can be one of those partners that is focused on the transaction and you'll be successful doing that. But you're absolutely right. If you focus on the long game. I think that is just like I said, completely fertile ground. And there are a lot of opportunities because historically Amazon was ah was a Lego parts, uh, type of cloud provider, right? They provided you with the basic building blocks, which is great for Web scale and startups not so good for enterprise. And so now Amazon is starting to put together in package part, so it's more consumable by enterprises. But you still need that help. And as Sarpy just mentioned, you also have to consider that Amazon is not the only aspect that you're gonna be using. You're gonna be using other providers to. And so I think this again is where partners they pick a primary, and then they also bring in the others where appropriate. >>All right, I want to get into this whole riff. I have a cherry chin on day one. Hey, came on the special fireside chat with me and we talked about, um, cloud errors before cloud Amazon. And now I'll call postcode because we're seeing this kind of whole new, you know, in the cloud kind of generation. And so he said, OK, this pre cloud you had Amazon generation, whereas lift and shift. Ah, lot of hybrid And you have everything is in the cloud like a snowflake kind of thing. And he kind of call it the reptiles versus the amphibians you're on. See your inland, your hybrid, and then you're you're in the water. I mean, so So he kind of went on, Took that another level, meaning that. Okay, this is always gonna be hybrid. But there's a unique differentiation for being all in the cloud. You're seeing different patterns. Amazon certainly has an advantage. See, Dev Ops guru, that's just mining the data of their entire platform and saying Okay, Yeah, do this. There's advantages for being in the cloud that aren't available. Hybrid. So amphibian on land and sea hybrid. And then in the cloud. How do you guys see that if you're a partner. You wanna be on the new generation. What's the opportunity to capture value? He has hybrid certainly coexist. But in the new era, >>remember Scott McNealy used to talk about car makers and car dealers. And of course, Sun's gone. But he used to say, We want to be a carmaker. Car dealers. They got big houses and big boats, but we're gonna be a carmaker. Oh, I think it's some similarities here. I mean, there's a lot of money to be made as a as a car dealer. But you see, companies like Dell, H P E. You know, they want to be carmakers. Obviously Google Microsoft. But there are gonna be a lot of successful really big carmakers in this game. >>Yeah, I believe I believe I always call it Amazon Is the makers cloud right, So they are very developer friendly. They were very developer friendly for startups. Uh, a stem said earlier, but now they are very developer, friendly and operations friendly. Now, actually, in a way for enterprises, I believe, and that the that well, the jerry tend to sort of Are you all all in cloud are sitting just in the dry land. Right now, I think every sort off organization is in a different sort off mature, at different maturity level. But I think we're going all going towards a technology consumption as a service. Mostly, I think it will be off Prem. It can be on Prem in future because off age and all that. And on that note, I think EJ will be dominated by Tier one cloud providers like crazy people who think edge will be nominally but telcos and all that. I think they're just, uh, if >>I made Thio, if I may interject for a second for the folks watching, that might not be old enough to know who Scott McNealy is. He's the founder of Sun Microsystems, which was bought by Oracle years ago. Yeah, basically, because many computer, there's a lot of young kids out there that even though Scott McNealy's But remember, >>do your homework, Scott, you have to know who Scott Scott McNealy >>also said, because Bill Gates was dominant. Microsoft owns the tires and the gas to, and they want to own the road. So remember Microsoft was dominating at that time. So, Tim Gas data is that I mean, Amazon might have everything there. >>I was gonna go back to the to the comment. You know, McNeely came out with some really, really good analogies over his tenure. Um, it's son and you know, son had some great successes. But unfortunately, Cloud is not as simplistic as buying a car and having the dealership and the ecosystem of gas and tires. And the rest you have to think about the toll journey. And that journey is incredibly complicated, especially for the enterprise that's coming from legacy footprints, monolithic application stacks and trying to understand how to make that transition. It's almost it's almost, in a way mawr analogous to your used to riding a bike, and now you're gonna operate a semi. And so how do you start to put all of the pieces into place to be able to make that transition? And it's not trivial. You have to figure out how your culture changes, how your processes changes. There are a lot of connected parts. It's not a simple as the ecosystem of tires and gas. We have to think about how that data stream fits in with other data streams where analytics are gonna be done. What about tying back to that system of record that is going to stay on the legacy platform. Oh, and by the way, some of that has to still stay on Prem. It can't move to the cloud yet. So we have this really complicated, diverse environment that we have to manage, and it's only getting more complicated. And I think that's where the opportunity comes in for the size and s visas. Step into that. Understand that journey, understand the transitions. I don't believe that enterprises, at least in the near term, let alone short term, will be all in cloud. I think that that's more of a fantasy than reality. There is a hybrid state that that is going to be transitory for some period of time, and that's where the big opportunity is. >>I think you're right on time. I think just to double down on that point, just to bring that to another level is Dave. Remember back in the days when PCs where the boom many computers with most clients there was just getting started? There was a whole hype cycle on hard drives, right? Hard drives were the thing. Now, if you look out today, there's more. Observe, ability, startups and I could count, right? So to Tim's point, this monolithic breakdown and component izing decomposing, monolithic APs or environments with micro services is complex. So, to me, the thing that I see is that that I could relate to is when I was breaking in in the eighties, you had the mainframes. Is being the youngun I'm like, Okay, mainframes, old monolithic client server is a different paradigm thing. You had, uh, PCs and Internet working. I think all that change is happening so fast right now. It's not like over 10 years to Tim's points, like mainframes to iPhones. It's happening in like three years. Imagine crunching all that complexity and change down to a short window. I think Amazon has kind of brought that. I'm just riffing on that, But >>yeah, you're absolutely right, John. But I think there's another piece and we can use a very specific example to show this. But another piece that we have to look at is we're trying to simplify that environment, and so a good place to simplify that is when we look at server lis and specifically around databases, you know, historically, I had to pick the database architecture that the applications would ride on. Then I have to have the infrastructure underneath and manage that appropriately so that I have both the performance a swell, a security as well as architecture. Er and I have to scale that as needed. Today, you can get databases of service and not have to worry about the underpinnings. You just worry about the applications and how those data streams connect to other data streams. And so that's the direction that I think things were going is, and we see this across the enterprise we're looking for. Those packaged package might be a generalized term, but we're looking for um, or packaged scenario and opportunity for enterprises rather than just the most basic building blocks. We have to start putting together the preformed applications and then use those as larger chunks. And >>this is the opportunity for a size I was talking before about business transformation. If you take, take Tim's database example, you don't need somebody anymore. Toe, you know, set up your database to tune it. I mean, that's becoming autonomous. But if you think about the way data pipelines work in the way organizations are structured where everything because it goes into this monolithic data lake or and and And it's like generic content coming in generic data where the business owner has to get in line and beg a data scientist or quality engineered or thio ingest a new data source. And it's just like the old data warehouse days where I think there's tremendous opportunities for s eyes to go in a completely re architect. The data model. Sergeant, This is something you and I were talking about on Twitter. It's That's why I like what snowflakes doing. It's kind of a AWS is trying to do with lasted glue views, but there's a whole business transformation opportunity for s eyes, which I just think is huge. Number l >>e all talk. Go ahead. Sorry. Yeah, >>I think we >>all talk, but we know we all agree on one thing that the future is hybrid for at least for next. You know, 10 years, if not more. Uh, hybrid is hard. The data proximity is, uh, very important. That means Leighton see between different workloads, right? That's super important. And I talk about this all the time and almost in every conversation I have about about. It's just scenario, is that there three types of applications every every enterprise systems or fractured systems, systems of engagement and the systems of innovation and my theory of cloud consumption tells me that sooner or later, systems off record. We'll move into SAS SAS world. That's that's how I see it. There's no other way around, I believe, and the systems off engagement or systems off differentiation something and call it. They will leverage a lot off platforms, the service and in that context context, I have said it many times the to be a best of the breed platform. As a service, you have to be best off the breed, um, infrastructure as a service provider. And that's Amazon. And that is that's also a zero to a certain extent, and then and and Google is trying to do that, too. So the feature sort off gap between number one cloud and two and three is pretty huge. I believe I think Amazon is doing great data democratization through several less. I just love serving less for that Several things over. Unless there is >>a winning formula is no doubt about several times I totally agree. But I think one of the things that I miss it has done is they've taken server lists. They brought their putting all the I as and the chips, and they're moving all the value up to the service layer, which gives them the advantage over others. Because everyone else is trying to compete down here. They're gonna be purpose built. If you look what Apple is doing with the chips and what the Amazon is doing, they're gonna kind of have this chip to chip scenario and then the middle. Where in between is the container ization, the micro services and Lambda? So if you're a developer, you approach is it's programmable at that point that could that could be a lock spec. I think for Amazon, >>it absolutely could be John. But I think there's another aspect here that we have to touch on, especially as we think about partners and where the opportunities come in. And that is that We often talk about non cloud to cloud right, how to get from on Prem to cloud. But the piece that you also have thio bring into the conversation is Theo edge to cloud continuum and So I think if you start to look at some of the announcements this week from AWS, you start looking at some of the new instance types uh, that are very ai focused. You look at the two new form factors for outposts, which allows you to bring cloud to a smaller footprint within an on premise premises, situation, uh, different local zones. And then Thea other piece that I think is really interesting is is their announcements around PCs and eks anywhere being able to take cloud in kubernetes, you know, across the board. And so the challenge here is, as I mentioned earlier, complexity is paramount. It's concern for enterprises just moving to cloud. You start layering in the edge to cloud continuum, and it just it gets exponentially more complicated. And so Amazon is not going to be the one to help you go through that. Not because they can't, but frankly, just the scale of help that is going to be needed amongst enterprises is just not there. And so this is really where I think the opportunity lies for the s eyes and I SVS and partners. You >>heard how Jassy defined hybrid John in the article that you wrote when you did your one on one with him, Tim and the in the analyst call, you answered my question and then I want to bring in Antonio near his comment. But Jassy basically said, Look, we see the cloud bring We're gonna bring a W s to the edge and we see data centers. This is another edge node and San Antonio Neary after HP is pretty good quarter uh came out and said, Well, we heard the public cloud provider talking about hybrid welcome, you know? >>Yeah, they were going and then getting here jumped on that big time. But we'll be looking hybrid. Tim nailed The complexity is the is the evil is friction is a friction area. If the complexity could be mastered by the edge provider closest to the customer, that's gonna be valuable, um, for partners. And then we can do that. Amazon's gonna have to continue to remove the friction and putting that together, which is why I'm nervous about their channel partners. Because if I'm a partner, I asked myself, How do I make money with Amazon? Right? At the end of the day, it's money making right. So how can I be successful? Um, not gonna sell more in the marketplace. Will the customer consumer through there? Is it friction or is a complex So this notion of complexity and friction becomes a double edged sword Tim on both sides. So we have five minutes left. Let's talk about the bottom side Complexity, >>friction. So you're absolutely right, John. And you know, the other thing that that I would say is for the partner, you have to look beyond what Amazon is selling today. Look at where the customers are going. And you know, David, I think you and I were both in an analyst session with Andy Jassy several years ago where one of the analysts asked the question. So you know, what's your perspective on Hybrid Cloud? In his response, candidly was, while we have this particular service and really, what he was talking to is a service that helps you on board to Amazon's public cloud. There was there was not an acknowledgment of hybrid cloud at the time, But look at how things have changed just in a short few years, and I understand where Jassy is coming from, but this is just exemplifies the fact that if you're a partner, you have to look beyond what Amazon is saying and think toe how the customer is evolving, how the enterprise is evolving and get yourself ahead of them. That will position you best for both today. And as you're building for the future. >>That's a great point, Dave. Complexity on buying. I'm a customer. You can throw me a marketplace all you want, but if I'm not gonna be tied into my procurement, how I'm consuming technology. Tim's point. Amazon isn't the only game in town. I got other suppliers. >>Yeah, well, certainly for some technology suppliers, they're basically could bring their on prem estate if it's big enough into the cloud. Uh, you know what is big enough? That's the big question here. You know, our guys like your red hats big enough. Okay, we know that Nutanix pure. They're sort of the next layer down. Can they do? They have enough of a customer base that they could bring into the cloud, create that abstraction layer, and then you got the born in the cloud guy Snowflake, Colombia or two good examples. Eso They've got the technology partners and then they're the size and consultants. And again, I see that is the really big opportunity is 10 points out? Amazon is acknowledging that hybrid Israel in in a newly defined way, they're going out to the edge, find you wanna call data center the edge. How are they going to support those installations? How are they gonna make sure that they're running properly? That they're connected to the business process? Those air That's s I whitespace. Huge. >>Guys, we have to wrap it up right now. But I just end on, you know, we'll get everyone go A little lightning around quick soundbite on the phrase with him, which stands for what's in it from me. So if I'm a partner, I'm a customer. I look at Amazon, I think. What's in it for me? Yeah. What a za customer like what do I get out of this? >>Yeah, having done, like more than 100 data center audits, and I'm seeing what mess up messes out there and having done quite a few migrations to cloud migrations of the messy messages piece, right? And it doesn't matter if you're migrating 10% or 20 or 30 it doesn't matter that how much you're migrating? It's a messy piece, and you cannot do with our partners that work. Actually, you need that. Know how you need to infuse that that education into into your organization, how to consume cloud, how toe make sense of it, how you change your processes and how you train your people. So it touches all the products, people and processes. So on three years, you gotta have partners on your side to make it >>so Hey, I'll go quick. And, Tim, you give you the last word. Complexity is cash. Chaos is cash. Follow the complexity. You'll make cash. >>Yeah, you said it, David. I think anyway, that you can help an enterprise simplify. And if you're the enterprise, if you're the customer, look for those partners. They're gonna help you simplify the journey over time. That's where the opportunity really lies. >>Okay, guys, Expert power panel here on Cuba live program, part of AWS reinvent virtual coverage, bringing you all the analysis from the experts. Digital transformations here. What's in it for me is a partner and customer. Help me make some money, master complexity and serve my customer. Mister Cube. Thanks for watching >>que Yeah, from around the globe. It's the cute

>>From around the globe. It's the cube with digital coverage of AWS reinvent executive summit 2020, sponsored by Accenture and AWS. >>Welcome everyone to the cube virtual and our coverage of the Accenture executive summit, which is part of AWS reinvent 2020. I'm your host Rebecca Knight. Today, we are talking about the green cloud and joining me is Kishor Dirk. He is Accenture senior managing director cloud first global services lead. Thank you so much for coming on the show. Kishor nice to meet you. Great to have you. So I want to start by asking you what it is that we mean when we say green cloud, we know this sustainability is a business imperative. So many organizations around the world are committing to responsible innovation, lowering carbon emissions. But what is this? What does it, what does it mean when they talk about cloud from a sustainability perspective? >>I think it's about responsible innovation. Green cloud is a thoughtful cloud-first approach that helps boost your profits and benefit the clients by helping reduce carbon emissions. Think about it this way. You have a large number of data centers, and each of these data centers are increasing by 14% every year. And this double digit growth comes with the price of Becca. What we are seeing is these data centers consume a lot of power and the consumption is nearly coolant to the consumption of a country like Spain. So the magnitude of the problem that is out there and how do we pursue a green approach? Uh, if you look at this, our Accenture analysis, in terms of the migrations to public cloud, we have seen that, uh, we can reduce that by 59 million tons of CO2 per year. And, uh, with just a 5.9% reduction in total it emissions and equates this to, uh, 22 million cars of the road. And the magnitude of reduction can go a long way in meeting climate change commitments, particularly for data sensitive businesses. >>Wow. That's incredible what your, the numbers that you're putting forward are absolutely mind blowing. So how does it work? Is it a simple cloud migration? >>So, you know, when companies begin that cloud journey and then they confront, uh, with them a lot of questions, the decision to make, uh, this particular, uh, element sustainable in the solution and benefits they drive and they have to make wise choices, and then they will gain unprecedented level of innovation leading to both a greener planet, as well as, uh, a greater balance sheet, I would say, uh, so effectively it's all about ambition data, the ambition, greater the reduction in carbon emissions. So from a cloud migration perspective, we look at it as a, as a simple solution with approaches and sustainability benefits, uh, that vary based on things it's about selecting the right cloud provider, very carbon thoughtful provider, and the first step towards a sustainable cloud journey. And here we're looking at cloud operators, obviously they have different corporate commitments towards sustainability, and that determines how they plan, how they build, uh, their, uh, the data centers, how they are consumed and assumptions that operate there and how they, how they retire their data centers. >>Then, uh, the next element that you want to do is how do you build your ambition, you know, for some of the companies, uh, and average on-prem, uh, drives about 65% energy reduction and the carbon emissions reduction number was 84%, which is kind of okay. And good, I would say, but then if you could go up to 98% by configuring applications to the cloud, that is significant benefit for, for the world. And obviously it's a greener cloud that we're talking about. And then the question is, how far can you go? And, uh, you know, the, obviously the companies have to unlock greater financial societal environmental benefits, and Accenture has this cloud-based circular operations and sustainable products and services that we bring into play. So it's a, it's a very thoughtful, broader approach that w bringing in, in terms of, uh, just a simple concept of cloud migration, >>We know that in the COVID era, shifting to the cloud has really become a business imperative. How is Accenture working with its clients at a time when all of this movement has been accelerated? How do you partner and what is your approach in terms of helping them with their migrations? >>Yeah, I mean, let, let me talk a little bit about the pandemic and the crisis that is there today. And if you really look at that in terms of how we partnered with a lot of our clients in terms of the cloud first approach, I'll give you a couple of examples. We worked with rolls, Royce, McLaren, DHL, and others, as part of the ventilator challenge consortium, again, to, uh, coordinate production of medical ventilator surgeons we needed for the UK health service. Many of these farms I've taken similar initiatives in, in terms of, uh, you know, from, uh, a few manufacturers hand sanitizers, and to answer it as is, and again, leading passionate labels, making PPE, and again, at the UN general assembly, we launched the end-to-end integration guide that helps company essentially to have a sustainable development goals. And that's how we are parking at a very large scale. >>Uh, and, and if you really look at how we work with our clients and what is the Accenture's role there, uh, you know, from, in terms of our clients, you know, there are multiple steps that we look at. One is about, uh, planning, building, deploying, and managing an optimal green cloud solution. And Accenture has this concept of, uh, helping clients with a platform to kind of achieve that goal. And here we are having, we are having a platform or a mine app, which has a module called beat advisor. And this is a capability that helps you provide optimal green cloud, uh, you know, a business case, and obviously a blueprint for each of our clients. And right, the start in terms of how do we complete cloud migration recommendation to an improved solution, accurate accuracy to obviously bringing in the end to end perspective, uh, you know, with this green card advisor capability, we're helping our clients capture what we call as a carbon footprint for existing data centers and provide, uh, I would say the current cloud CO2 emission score that, you know, obviously helps them, uh, with carbon credits that can further that green agenda. >>So essentially this is about recommending a green index score, reducing carbon footprint for migration migrating for green cloud. And if we look at how Accenture itself is practicing what we preach, 95% of our applications are in the cloud. And this migration has helped us, uh, to lead to about $40.5 million in benefit. And in the third year and another 3 million in analytics costs that are saved through right-sizing, uh, service consumption. So it's a very broad umbrella and footprint in terms of how we engage societaly with the UN or our clients. And, and what is it that we exactly bring to our clients in solving a specific problem? >>Accenture isn't is walking the walk, as you say >>Yes. So that instead of it, we practice what we preach, and that is something that we take it to heart. We want to have a responsible business and we want to practice it. And we want to advise our clients around that >>You are your own use case. And so they can, they know they can take your advice. So talk a little bit about, um, the global, the cooperation that's needed. We know that conquering this pandemic is going to take a coordinated global effort and talk a little bit about the great reset initiative. First of all, what is that? Why don't we, why don't we start there and then we can delve into it a little bit more. >>Okay. So before we get to how we are cooperating, the great reset, uh, initiative is about improving the state of the world. And it's about a group of global stakeholders cooperating to simultaneously manage the direct consequences of their COVID-19 crisis. Uh, and in spirit of this cooperation that we're seeing during COVID-19, which will obviously either to post pandemic, to tackle the world's pressing issues. As I say, uh, we are increasing companies to realize a combined potential of technology and sustainable impact to use enterprise solutions, to address with urgency and scale, and, um, obviously, uh, multiple challenges that are facing our world. One of the ways that you're increasing, uh, companies to reach their readiness cloud with Accenture's cloud strategy is to build a solid foundation that is resilient and will be able to faster, uh, to the current, as well as future times. Now, when you think of cloud as the foundation, uh, that drives the digital transformation, it's about scale speed, streamlining your operations, and obviously reducing costs. >>And as these businesses sees the construct of cloud first, they must remain obviously responsible and trusted. Now think about this site as part of our analysis, uh, that profitability can co-exist with responsible and sustainable practices. Let's say that all the data centers, uh, migrated from on-prem to cloud based, we estimate that would reduce carbon emissions globally by 60 million tons per year. Uh, and think about it this way, right? Easier metric would be taking out 22 million cars off the road. Um, the other examples that you've seen, right, in terms of the NHS work that they're doing, uh, in, in UK to beg, uh, you know, uh, Microsoft teams in based integration. And, uh, the platform rolled out for 1.2 million in interest users, uh, and got 16,000 users that we were able to secure instant messages, uh, you know, obviously complete audio video calls and host virtual meetings across India. So, uh, this, this work that we did with NHS is, is something that we have, we're collaborating with a lot of tools and powering businesses. >>Well, you're vividly describing the business case for sustainability. What do you see as the future of cloud when thinking about it from this lens of sustainability, and also going back to what you were talking about in terms of how you are helping your, your fostering cooperation within these organizations? >>Yeah, that's a very good question. So if you look at today, right, businesses are obviously environmentally aware and they are expanding efforts to decrease power consumption, carbon emissions, and they want it on a sustainable operational efficiency across all elements of their business. And this is an increasing trend, and there is that option of energy efficient infrastructure in the global market. And this trend is the cloud thinking. And with the right cloud migration that we've been discussing is about unlocking new opportunity, like clean energy foundations, uh, enable enabled by cloud-based geographic analysis, material, waste reductions, and better data insights. And this is something that, uh, uh, we'll drive, uh, with obviously faster analytics platform that is out there. Now, the sustainability is actually the future of business, which is companies that are historically during the financial security or agility benefits to cloud. Now, sustainability becomes an imperative for them and our own experience Accenture's experience with cloud migrations. We have seen 30 to 40% total cost of ownership savings, and it's driving a greater workload, flexibility, better service and obviously more energy efficient, uh, public clouds, uh, costs. Uh, we'll see that, that drive a lot of these enterprise own data centers. So in our view, what we are seeing is that this, this, uh, sustainable cloud position helps, uh, helps companies to, uh, drive a lot of the goals in addition to their financial and other goods. >>So what should organizations who are, who are watching this interview and saying, Hey, I need to know more, what, what do you recommend to them? And what, where should they go to get more information on green cloud, >>A business leader? And you're thinking about which cloud provider is good, or how, how should applications be modernized to meet our day-to-day needs, which cloud driven innovations should be priorities. Uh, you know, that's why Accenture, uh, farmed, uh, the cloud first organization and essentially to provide the full stack of cloud services to help our clients become a cloud first business. Um, you know, it's all about accelerating the digital transformation, innovating faster, creating differentiated, uh, and sustainable value for our clients. And we're powering it up at 70,000 cloud professionals, $3 billion investment, and, uh, bringing together on my step, then the cloud services for our clients in terms of cloud solutions. And obviously the ecosystem partnership that we have, uh, that we are seeing today, uh, and, and the assets that help our clients realize their goals. Um, and again, to, uh, do reach out to us, uh, we can help them determine obviously, an optimal, sustainable cloud for solution that meets the business needs and being unprecedented levels of innovation. Our experience, uh, will be our advantage. And, uh, now more than ever Rebecca, >>Just closing us out here. Do you have any advice for these companies who are navigating a great deal of uncertainty? We, what, what do you think the next 12 to 24 months? What do you think that should be on the minds of CEOs as they go forth? >>So, as CIO are thinking about rapidly leveraging cloud, migrating to cloud, uh, one of the elements that we want them to be thoughtful about is can they do that with unprecedent level of innovation, but also build a greener planet and a greener balance sheet, if we can achieve this balance and kind of, uh, have a, have a world which is greener, I think the world will win. And we all along with Accenture clients will win. That's what I would say, uh, >>Optimistic outlook. And I will take it. Thank you so much. Kishor for coming on the show >>That was Accenture's >>Kishor Dirk, I'm Rebecca Knight stay tuned for more of the cube virtuals coverage of the Accenture executive summit.

(techno music) >> Live from Mountain View California, it's the Cube covering DEVNET CREATE 2019, brought to you by CISCO. >> Hey, welcome back to the Cube. Lisa Martin with John Furrier covering, day two covering I should say, CISCO DEVNET CREATE 2019, at the Computer History Museum in Mountain View California. We're please to welcome Prashanth Shenoy, the VP of Product Marketing, Enterprise Networks and DEVNET at CISCO. Prashanth it's great to have you join John and me this afternoon. >> Great to be here. >> So, this event is growing year after year. John and I have been talking about this very strong sense of collaboration and community with the attendees that are here in person. One of the big things yesterday that Susie was talking about was this, What's coming in Wi-Fi? Talk to us about this next-gen Wi-Fi and how it's going to be so impactful to everyone. >> Yeah it's, it's a phenomenal technology inflection point this year, I feel. We can't believe it, but you know, when was the first Wi-Fi that got started? >> 2001. >> Pretty close, 1999. So this is the 20th Anniversary of Wi-Fi. It's come to be life, right? so it's now in its fourteenth. >> I'm off by two years. >> Right, so yeah, I know. (laughter) But, 802.11A was the first Wi-Fi technology, and the speeds were ... promised speeds were 54-megabits, okay? Ah, but the real speeds were, like, 6-mega or something, right? And now, this is the sixth generation of Wi-Fi, so we've come a long way and we take it for granted in our daily life. >> Absolutely, we do. >> I don't think I can think a day without having Wi-Fi. >> Everyone talks about Wi-Fi. The kids, What's the Wi-Fi password? (laughter) I change it all the time, kids, this ... parents, pro tip. Change the password. >> Yes. You got to listen. They'll call you, your kids will call you back. It's an important tip. >> Full-on security, yeah. >> But distance is been an issue, distance, and >> Yeah. >> Radio Frequency has certain >> Yeah propagation technique so, >> Yeah. >> Are you close to the router? That room doesn't have, this doesn't have it. So there's always been distance. And throughput. >> latency, throughput, capacity. >> Most people say who's streaming Netflix, Wi-Fi is down, so again people know this they experience it everyday. >> Exactly. >> What's the big hubbub about Wi-Fi 6? What's different? I got a little preview from Todd so I'll let you explain it but >> Yeah. >> What is the notable bullet points of why it's different? >> Yeah. >> And, Why it's a game changer? >> So it's, as with every technology, three things that it always brings up, better experiences, better capacity, increase capacity, and better battery savings, which I think is very important for users but more importantly useful for IOT applications, which is ... I'm very very excited on what its going to unleash when it comes to IOT. It's been in the fringe side of IOT, like oil and gas mining utilities is what we think when we think of IOT. And now we're going to think IOT in corporate space like this, right? Each one these devices are IOT devices now, like your HVAC systems, your lighting system, air conditioning systems, physical surveillance cameras. Everything with the Wi-Fi is IOT. And because of this increased capacity, an increase density, high density environment where this capacity becomes really critical, imagine 20 devices simultaneously using Wi-Fi to communicate high Bandwidth intensive application. That's when Wi-Fi 6 becomes really critical and powerful and that opens up a huge - >> So more coverage area. >> Yeah. >> With the Antenna. It's MIMO Antenna. >> Yeah. >> And Bandwidth, right? >> Capacity and Bandwidth, like compare to .11A, and even .11AX, right it's up to 4X better capacity, 4X better battery savings and the promised throughput of like six gigabits, right, so, But the key part here is simultaneously talking to multiple devices at the same time. And that is very very crucial because of technologies ... I don't want to geek out here, like OFDMA and all this etc. >> Well let's all ... architectural because one thing Susie brought up was, architectural shifts are going to be the big game, One of the game changes you brought up and you know Wi-Fi ... and I have seen it grow from the beginning, I remember when they first came out was a revelation and you know the battery power was an issue but it always was viewed as a peripheral to the network. >> Yeah. >> You bolt on Wi-Fi and just basically extend your land - >> Yeah. >> To use network parlance and now you're seeing people working on making it much more Core 1 Network. >> Absolutely. And Meraki kind of shows the benefit of having wireless and wired - >> Yeah. work together as one. >> Yeah, absolutely >> This seems to be the thesis behind Wi-Fi six. One core thing. >> Yeah. >> Not a bolt-on extension. >> No, absolutely. I think there's a saying which is the reality, behind every wireless there are tons of wires, right. So, 'cause everything that's connected to the wire infrastructure, and with the Wi-Fi 6 now having increased capacity and increased density, it's causing a cascading effect into the rest of the network infrastructure so it becomes highly, highly crucial when you architect your network infrastructure not just to think about wireless but what happens to the access switch, to the core, to the distribution, to the aggregation. And that has a compounding effect, like multi gig speeds in the access to 10 gig to 40 gig in the core going all the way to 100 gig, right, so, the whole performance and reliability to have that immersive experience that Wi-Fi six needs to bring in, needs to be there. >> so for developers and entrepreneurs out there who always look for the white space, CISCO is a big Multi-Billion dollar company. You guys got big market share, whenever there's big moves like this it causes a new change in the order, the pecking order - >> Yeah >> of companies, it changes the landscape. This is going to be a game changer because it's going to create the new opportunities to create new things. >> Yeah, absolutely. >> What are some of the things that you see out there you could share for people watching who are you know hacking around creating things who say, I want to create something big. What's the enablement? What are some of the things that you see happening that are going to be emerging out of this? >> Yeah, a lot of Fringe technologies that are fringe right now are going to be mainstream, like imagine 2006, When iPhone came in, right so and we were just having the discussion, like, that came in at the heels of major shift in connectivity, that's when 3G came in, right, at that point and multi-megabit capacity, and you saw new applications come in. Now Uber, Lyft, all these kind of applications were possible because of the connectivity. And now, Wi-Fi 6 along with 5G will unleash the next wave of applications. So, first thing is immersive applications, things that are VR, AR, it's used for gaming right now, and kids use this, you're going to see that come in hospitals, where surgeons can do remote surgeries, they can have high-density imagery of your brain, for example, as you're operating, being sent to a remote expert and on the fly, make decisions, right? Like, that is going to be pretty normal and standard, in fact, quite a few of our customers are testing this out, right? VR learning, for students, like, if I were to go ... Like, imagine if you are at the Lincoln Memorial in Washington, August 1963, right, listening to MLK "I Have A Dream" speech, and you're in the crowd, immersed in the VR, like, which student wouldn't have more recollection and really connect with that, right? >> I'm sorry, wait - >> You're going to see more and more of these, so it's a better way of learning, and really getting that learning sticking in your brain, you're going to see more of that happening. And the same goes with retail experience, you're shopping, it's going to completely change the way, because of all these immersive experiences. And then, because of the higher density, you're going to see entertainment venues like stadiums where everybody now wants to share their experience to the outside world, and livestream it, right? And I was talking to Carnival Cruise Line, who's one of our customers, and they call themselves City On The Sea, which means, a cruise ship is nothing but it has entertainment, casinos, hotels - >> Lots of food. (laughs) >> Lots of food, swimming pools Concerts happening, and when people took vacation they just wanted to disconnect from everything in the world, right? Now, it's completely reversed. They want to connect full-on, and share their experience in the land, right? And they want to stream it live, 4K. And, these cruise ships are transforming themselves to provide this always-on, fully-on immersive digital experience, and they're creating things like a mobile app to order pizza no matter where you are on the ship. Within five minutes they're going to find the exact location of where you are on the ship and deliver pizza to you, right? These kind of experiences will happen! >> And you know, the perfect storm in all this too, is that the Cloud earnings are coming out, we saw Microsoft's earnings yesterday, Amazon Web Series' earning >> Yeah. do proud of Amazon today, the Cloud stocks are up, the Clouds are growing at a massive scale, they're a power source for these application developers. >> Yeah. >> As well as the on-premise business. So you have, you now have the perfect developer environment - >> A hundred percent. >> To create these new wacky ideas that will be standard. I mean, what was once ... what we take as standard as you mentioned, was a wacky idea in 2006. >> Yeah. >> Location services, checking into a hotel with my phone and having - >> Yeah. >> Cars being delivered to me, what? Who does that? >> And this, this becomes a reality, and Cloud really increased the pace of innovation, right? Now it's kind of cheaper, you don't need to get your own server, you can kind of swipe your credit card, get a bunch of VM, start building applications, and now you have the required bandwidth capacity and density in your infrastructure, and you have the right devices right now to bring that experiences to you, right? So, now it's this trifecta of things, awesome devices, the network ready to deliver those experiences, and Cloud being able to scale out to build those experiences. >> Prashanth, I know you've got a big announcement coming up on the 29th, it's a virtual event, I think Cisco.com, they can probably find out with the URL where the event is, without revealing all the secret sauce, I know you guys had Wi-Fi 6 inside Cisco, >> Yeah. >> testing it out, I heard people in the hallway here, >> Yeah. >> Talking about it, um, and they're pretty animated in their commentary. Can you share the vibe and what's it like when the engineers look at the data, when they say, we just deployed the Wi-Fi 6, what was the reactions, um - >> Yeah. >> Were they blown away, was it mediocre, was it - >> Yeah. >> What were some of the things that they were saying, what was the feedback? >> We were piloting that, and the best way to look at it is, if you go to the wireless dev center on DevNet, you're going to see that we compared a 4K video running with Wi-Fi 6 and without Wi-Fi 6. I think the results speak for themselves. Like, the kind of experience that you're going to see, it's going to be beautiful, and when employees look at those things, and I talked about a few experiences, last week we had a thing called Cisco Beat which is internal employees that we rally around and talk about technology, but more importantly, what it means to us as human beings in a personal way, and what it means to our customers, and they were blown away with some of the applications that are going to be mainstream in all of the industries that I talked about, right? Like Healthcare, hospitality, education, entertainment venues, et cetera. >> What's the low-hanging fruit use cases? What's the things that are going to be right obvious, right out of the gate for companies to implement, in terms of deploying Wi-Fi 6 and seeing immediate benefits? >> Immediate benefits is high-density environment, period. Like student lecture halls, convention centers, areas like this, where everybody wants, like, understand what's going on, but be digitally and visually connected, right? It's not only about email checking anymore, That happens automatically. But if you're here and you want to watch Susie's keynote livestream right now, with high density, and 20 other people want to watch with you, on their devices, it's possible, without a hitch. So that seamless, always-on experience becomes a reality that people can easily test out in small environments, right? Not in their entire environment, where there are high-density of people, accessing multi-media applications or high-bandwidth applications, so I feel that's a low-hanging fruit. And then it's going to go more and more towards IOT applications where sensors are getting connected, like some of our customers are brewers, have hundreds and thousands of sensors in their farms, in brewing machines, and they want all of their data to come and look at that simultaneously for quality control, right? Beer, no matter where it's made, should taste consistent, right? So you can see that coming to life, because now all of these can be connected, and because of better density and better capacity and better battery savings for these IOT devices that Wi-Fi 6 provides, you make these applications possible. So you're going to see very vertical-specific applications coming more and more with Wi-Fi 6. >> Vertical-specific, because you mentioned a number of different customer examples, you know, ranging from retailer, to - >> Yeah. >> Carnival Cruise Line, it's now this connected city - >> Yeah. >> Are there any verticals you see where, when you're talking with customers they're not quite there yet? >> Yeah, that's an interesting thing, it's ... for a change, you always have these early adopters but there is a lot of laggers who are just watching, waiting on the sidelines saying, mm, that's not for me. With Wi-Fi 6, there's been a lot of industry excitement, I would say, like manufacturing full-on, right, just coming on board. Retail, higher education, are always in the early-adopter phase, because for them, and there has been studies shown to say this directly impacts their brand - >> Yes. >> like customer experience defines brand. >> Oh, absolutely. >> And Wi-Fi, equals customer experience these days, right? So, you're going to see all of these industries really, I think I haven't seen much in maybe financial services, if you will, I think that's the only thing that I can remember, transportation, big on, like, machine to machine communication, autonomous driving is possible now because of 5G and Wi-Fi 6, right? So, and you are seeing more and more of this industry - >> This is right in your wheelhouse, and you guys have been pushing the edge for a long time, SD Wind, campus networking This is not new to Cisco. >> Yeah. >> But now with Wi-Fi 6, it literally lights that up. >> Yeah. Yup. >> Pun intended. >> I mean, you can now enable those environments to be completely robust, fully addressable, data-driven - >> Yeah. I think data that you mentioned becomes very, very crucial in this, because, especially now when you have so many more users, so many more devices, so many more applications getting on the network, people are really trying to figure out, what do I do with this? How do I get visibility into ... am I delivering the right experience? Am I providing the right security, et cetera, right? So, data becomes extremely crucial, and you'll see emergence of ML and AI technology because it's going to be humanly impossible to look at all of the data and make sense. So you've got to do machines, do their job, figure out patterns, air on dwell time, foot traffic, predictive ways of saying things may break, the experience may change, and predicting that even before they happen, and giving the right insight to the IT in the line of business, so Wi-Fi 6 is going to open up a whole new slew of ML and AI-driven operations and management capability too, so that's pretty exciting. >> When are they going to pull up a GPU on the Wi-Fi 6 devices? >> (laughs) Oh, it's happening. >> It's ready? >> It is going to happen, because you can run Edge computing applications right on Wi-Fi 6 devices, so you're going to see all of that, so, application hosting capabilities with GPU powered applications are going to be there. >> Just a network connection, right? >> Yeah. So you are going to see that, and frankly even I don't know what some of the Edge computing applications with Wi-Fi 6 will be, but we are seeing more and more of these coming ... DevNet buying tech, yeah. >> Well we did some research, we keep on a part of our SiliconANGLES team, where we prove that it's easier and more cost-effective, rather than moving data around, you move compute to the Edge - >> Edge. >> And then you use the backhaul, 'cause it costs money to send data around the network. It's costly. >> Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, and the autonomous cars was one great example, right? Like, it's a life-and-death situation when you are letting the car drive itself, right? So, you can't send all the data to the Cloud and say, analyze it for me. There are instantaneous decisions to be made, in milli-micro- nanoseconds, that need to be done on the Edge. So I think autonomous cars are a great example of Edge computing that needs to happen right on the Edge. The learning can then start happening in the Cloud, right? As in when these things get more and more smarter, you send all this data, you correlate all the intelligence there, you send it back to the machines. So you're going to see these kind of Edge computing applications. >> So you're excited by Wi-Fi 6? >> Nah. >> (laughter) >> Wi-Fi 6, so that's an even number, is that to be odd numbers, or lucky, I mean, the naming convention? >> No! >> Is there a - >> We want to be better than 5G. (laughter) So 5G is fifth generation of cellular, >> Okay. >> Wi-Fi 6 is sixth generation of Wi-Fi, right? I mean it's - >> So you're going to trump the 5G with the 6, >> Yeah. >> Kind of get ahead of it. >> Because it is truly the sixth generation of Wi-Fi. >> Okay, that's what it is. >> If we were to go back in time we would call 802.11ac, Wi-Fi 5. Right? It's kind of not that easy to say, but yeah, so Wi-Fi 5 happened like three or four years back, and now it's Wi-Fi sixth gen, so. >> We'll have to do a deep dive in the studio sometime, >> Oh, absolutely. >> on getting into all the spectrum issues, you know, the channels - >> Yeah. >> And the antennas and chains and all that good stuff. >> Yeah. There's a lot to geek out on that. (laughs) >> Yeah, it's going to be fun. >> So you talked about, kind of before we wrap up here, you talked about, you know, everything really kind of being related to, or how this can help companies with brand, and brand is everything to any type of company - >> Yeah. >> We talk at every event we go to about how it's all about customer experience. >> Yeah. >> So my last question for you is, how is Wi-Fi 6 and some of these new technologies that clearly you're excited about, how do you think that's going to change the experience for your internal customers, and from being able to get things out faster, to your external Cisco customers? >> Yeah, when you say internal, our own employees - >> Yes. >> Our R and D? >> Yes, exactly. >> Absolutely. So I think, and one of the examples was shown right here, right, so, and I'm connecting the two answers that you had, like, there's a lot of technology details behind what we do, right, we spend tons of money doing R and D, but we wanted to expose that to our own customers, to our channel partners, and to our developers, right? So, this is something that Wi-Fi 6 brings a lot to our customers. So, all the goodness, the intelligence that we have hidden in our network, now gets exposed, through these APIs, to our developers, and to our own customers. So the internal customers of ours, which are engineers, Cisco IT, are tremendously excited to see what that unveils to us, right? And DevNet provides that platform where you can expose this through APIs, whether it's for security, whether it's for application experience, whether it's for better operations, and have new co-creation of applications that we haven't envisioned, new ways of ecosystem partners coming up and building new applications that we haven't envisioned. So, for our own R and D teams, it's pretty exciting. Because - >> Big catalyst. >> Yeah, just, exactly. You're just providing the platform, it's the catalyst for innovations, and that's what the internet was when we created that, right? We didn't know the internet of 20 years back is going to be the internet of today, and we didn't envision that, but here we are. >> Well the ETI's going to open up your market, because you're going to create an enablement to pass that forward, the opportunities to other developers to come up with the ideas. >> Yeah, absolutely. And that's the whole idea, is to provide them a platform to come up with innovations and ideas, and help share these ideas to other folks, right, because when the minds meld, it gets better and better. >> Build some good apps, make ... get it distributed on Wi-Fi 6, make some money, build a business, create a great app - >> Runs on your feet. It's step by step. >> It's a big inflection point. >> That's a pretty good motto. >> It's an inflection point. >> It is. It is truly, I believe, an inflection point. Mainly because, frankly, Wi-Fi 6 and 5G coming together, truly, because me and you as a user really don't care whether I'm on Wi-Fi or cellular, and we shouldn't, right, all I expect is no matter what I do, where I go, and I use my device, I should get the same consistent seamless experience. >> It works. >> Well I don't have the unlimited plan, so I'd love to have it - >> You would with that. on the Wi-Fi. (laughter) >> So you've got this virtual event next week on the 29th - >> Yeah. >> Is that going to tee up anything, any exciting things we're going to hear at Cisco Live a few weeks later? >> Oh yeah. Big time. Big time. (laughs) >> Any teasers you can give us? >> Without getting fired? Yeah, it's going to be tough. (laughter) No, yeah, I think things that we talked today are what we're going to explain more, and we're going to give more flavor on what Cisco's actually is actually doing from our products perspective, solutions, partnership perspective, to bring it to life, right? So, that's really exciting, so I highly encourage the folks that are watching this to register for this on Cisco.com Go Wired For Wireless event, so it's fun, because we've got a lot of industry experts, customers because that's where rubber meets the road - >> Absolutely. >> And that's where the top good applications, how far along they are, what are they testing, what are they trying out, and then we can geek out on all the technology, right? But it always starts with why, and why does it matter. So ... and that's why I'm excited, yeah. >> It sounds exciting. My cheeks are hurting from smiling. Prashanth, thank you so much ... right? ... for sharing your enthusiasm, your energy and expertise, it's been fun. We look forward to, uh, the virtual event next week, and hearing more about what's going on at Cisco Live. >> Thanks Lisa, thanks John. >> Well, our pleasure. For John Furrier, I'm Lisa Martin, you're watching The Cube live from day two of our coverage, of Cisco DevNet Create 2019. Thanks for watching. (techno music)