>> Announcer: It's theCUBE! Covering KubeCon and CloudNativeCon Europe 2018. Brought to you by the CloudNative Computing Foundation. And its ecosystem partners. >> Welcome back to theCUBE's exclusive coverage, here in Copenhagen Denmark this is KubeCon 2018 Europe, I'm John Furrier with my co-host Lauren Cooney. Our next guest is Tyler Jewell, he's the CEO of WSO2 with some big news, they're introducing a new programming language called Ballerina. Welcome to theCUBE thanks for joining us! >> Hey thank you for having me. >> So you're now the new CEO of WSO2, couple months almost a year. You guys have big news introducing a new programming language called Ballerina here. Tell us a bit about what this is. What's the big story? >> Well Ballerina is our approach to addressing the integration gap, which is what happens when integration products like ESB's are not agile, and programming languages make integration difficult. This is a language and a platform that have been co-designed together to be both integration simple, and agile. >> So take a step back how did you get here? Talk about what WSO2 is, and then why the motivation to do the language? What are some of the specific details, and how long have you been working on it? Take a minute to explain what the situation is. >> Well WS02 is a company that's been around for 13 years, we have 550 employees and we have about 500 customers, and we make integration software. These are things like message brokers, data mediation, and we do this for large scale projects around the world. And all of our technology is open-source. Now we power roughly five trillion transactions a year around the world, and we've done thousands of integration projects and what we've found is that they are all still waterfall development. You have to plan these things long in advance, it requires huge teams, and there's no decentralization of the work. And we need to make integration agile again. And in order to do that we needed to basically rethink the entire approach to the way that integrations are done. And we put it into a programming language so that we can do compile time abstractions that generate distributed system primitives. >> It's almost like you're solving your own problem, probably the frustration must have been all imagined. Another waterfall project again coming back, again and again repeating it, with Cloud the time to market is one of the key value propositions. Integration obviously with Kubernetes, workflows, and also portability is a big concern. What are some of the things that are driving that demand right now in your mind? Is is speed is it the tech demand for applications, what's the key? >> I think that what we're seeing is, really sophisticated and complex demand coming from kind-cuser consumers. Companies like Uber Slack and Amazon have witnessed this. And in order to scale to meet this complex demand, these organizations have had to create architectures that are highly disaggregated. And infrastructure like Kubernetes facilitates that disaggregation of architecture. Now when we saw the API economy, this was one form of disaggregation but now we've got microservices and serverless which are tenexing that. And as you disaggregate your architecture, you're going to have an explosion of programmable endpoints. There are 50 billion right now. The forecasts are that it's going to go to well over a trillion. And when that happens, integration is the glue that brings these things together. Integration is going to be the next generation problem that we have to deal with. >> Totally right I was just going to say glue layer, but you mentioned glue. Folks are getting out of the keynote right now, the CloudNative Foundation. Pretty massive growth, look at the logosly he sponsors. Just the amount of companies now joining. It seems like a land grab on one hand, but it's really the market just driving it. And it's coming down to this notion of glue layers, where with open-source it's about really taking pre-existing code, and then figuring out how to abstract that, make it simpler, create security, these are all operating system kind of questions. >> Well I think also it's open right? I mean that is part of the key here, it's the fact that it's open-source. And I think you guys are the last independent type of company that is actually doing this from an open-source perspective, is that right? >> Yeah we are the seventh largest open-source company, all the software that we publish is Apache License, and we found a way to monetize open-source without having to play open core games, where there's proprietary stacks on top of that. >> Lauren: That's great. >> What's the licensing concerns that you're seeing with Apache versus other foundations, where are developers gravitating to these days? That's always a question people always look at after the fact, they just jump in and start coding. What are some of the updates that you see in the industry around licensing and IP? >> Well first, we're still seeing a massive shift away from proprietary software into open-source software. There's still a lot of organizations that are adopting proprietary, but now they have program offices dedicated to open-source, and it encourages onboarding, adoption and giving back to open-source projects, so that trend is still significant. And as a result there's a lot of open-source foundations and non-profits that are benefiting from that. I think we're seeing huge growth in the Linux foundation, and all of its sub-organizations that are there, and we've also seen a resurgence in other open-source foundations like the Eclipse foundation as well. >> Lauren and I were talking about the opening about Kubernetes and that, outside of our bubble in Silicon Valley or the industry, you go to a standard enterprise. Waterfall moving to agile, Kubernetes is new. >> Tyler: Yeah. >> So in your opinion, what does Kubernetes mean for enterprises, and how should people think about the big movement to CloudNative, with respect to continuing the application development and continuing the innovation? >> I think that the momentum around Kubernetes, particularly around the ecosystem consolidating around it, means that we have a de facto standard for a run-time platform that can engage both operations and development. And in the first time over the past 20 years, we do not have a fragmented market anymore. And when you don't have a fragmented market, the productivity gains that come from the value added layers on top of that are going to increase dramatically, and I think that's why we so many vendors here, and why we see now I think almost 4,000 people at this conference this year as well. >> It's super awesome. What do you see as the next wave of innovation with the standardization? With the standardization people can rally around it. >> Yeah. >> Where's the next work being done around Kubernetes? >> I think that the next level of work here is, this is the year of the service mesh. And really the service mesh is a representation of how you build complex orchestrations, and applications that have a lot of compositions around that so workflow, stateful behaviors, long running processes, this is the next layer up, and that's where the standardization is going to go next. >> And certainly containers are great. How about security what's your view on security? Because that's a big discussion we were asking ourselves, okay what's the state of the art? Obviously Google's got an approach, we're seeing what they're doing. Is it baked is it being baked out? What's new what's your view on security? >> I think that security continues to be a massive problem. The introduction of GDPR this year really brings the spotlight onto all the data privacy issues that we have to deal with around the world, but I think we have a fundamental problem with security which is it's still this baked-on, add-on thing that's applied to your applications, and instead we actually need to look at programming languages in the apps that you write, as being security proof from the very beginning. And that's going to require a programming language to do that at the lowest level and the OS as well >> How is Ballerina handling that? Are they doing it up front? >> Well our approach to it is that we assume all data is tainted. And that the developer has to explicitly say this is safe data to avoid intrusion and tax on that, and so the compiler will actually reject any code that is not explicitly given that tag. >> Yeah assume the worst, hope for the best right? >> How are you looking to onboard developers to this platform this is a different programming language, talk a little bit about that. >> This is a programming language which means it's all about developer evangelism all day long. And you and I both started our careers 20 years ago in developer evangelism Lauren right? So it is going door to door, meet up to meet up, giving technical demos and encouraging people to get involved in the community and to write apps with it, that's how you do it. >> What's the state of the language now shipping? Is it available? What's the announcement? What's your plan how are you going to roll this thing out? >> It is shipping now, we just hit our .970 release we've been at it for 3 years, we've got a hundred committers on the project, but we just went public this week with Ballerina.io. At the .970 release, we are still making some minor language tweaks, and we hope to get to a Juanado language lock by the end of this year, and then we'll have backwards compatibility for three to five years with that. And probably sometime this summer, WSO2 our company will offer commercial support, and have it in use and production with our customer accounts >> And any feedback from early users? What's the vibe what's the feedback, what are you hearing? >> The vibe is hot right? It's a new programming language, it's got an awesome logo associated with this, but more importantly the language is easy for anyone to learn in a couple of hours, and developers love to see the glue that they can pick up and put into their toolbox that quickly. >> For the folks watching that aren't here in Europe, that didn't make the trip from the US or are watching remote, What's the big takeaway in your mind of the KubeCon 2018 Europe? What's the stage look like for you here? What's the show happenings? What's the big themes what's the takeaway? >> I think that the big takeaway is that the scale is finally now approachable for the rest of us on that, and that the ecosystem is ready to support you, and that it's crossed the chasm out of the early adopter and into the growth phase and ready for broad based adoption at this point. >> And the growth of microservices has been pretty significant? >> Ridiculous. >> Yeah cool. (laughter) Tyler thanks for coming on theCUBE appreciate it! >> Lauren: Thank you. >> Utterly my pleasure thank you for having me. >> Hey live coverage here in Denmark, we're in Copenhagen for KubeCon 2018. I'm John Furrier with Lauren Cooney, back with more live coverage after this short break. (upbeat music)

>> Announcer: Live, from Copenhagen, Denmark, it's theCUBE. Covering KubeCon and CloudNativeCon Europe 2018. Brought to you by the Cloud Native Computing Foundation and its Ecosystem Partners. >> Well everyone, welcome back to the live coverage of theCUBE here in Copenhagen, Denmark for KubeCon, Kubernetes Con 2018, part of the CNCF, Cloud Native Compute Foundation, part of the Linux Foundation. I'm John Furrier with Lauren Cooney, the founder of Spark Labs, breaking down day two, wrapping up our coverage of KubeCon and all the success that we've seen with Kubernetes, I thought it would be really appropriate to bring on the cofounder of KubeCon originally, Joseph Jacks, known as JJ in the industry, a good friend of theCUBE and part of the early formation of what is now Cloud Native. We were all riffing on that at the time. welcome back to theCUBE, great to see you. >> Thank you for having me John. >> So, for the story, for the folks out there, you know Cloud Native was really seen by the devops community, and infrastructure code was no secret to the insiders in the timeframes from 2010 through 2015, 16 timeframe, but really it was an open stack summit. A lot of people were kind of like, hey, you know, Google's got Kubernetes, they're going to open it up and this could be a real game changer, container, Docker was flying off the shelves. So we just kind of saw, right, and you were there and we were talking so there was a group of us. You were one of them. And you founded KubeCon, and bolted into the, at that time, the satellite Linux Foundation events, and then you pass it off as a good community citizen to the CNCF, so I wanted to just make sure that people knew that. What a great success. What's your impression? I mean, are you blown away? >> I am definitely blown away. I mean I think the size and scale of the European audience is remarkable. We had something like slightly less than half this in Austin last year. So to see more than that come here in Europe I think shows the global kind of growth curve as well as like, I think, Dan and someone else was asking sort of raise your hand if you've been to Kubecon Austin and very few actually, so there's a lot of new people showing up in Europe. I think it just shows the demand-- >> And Dan's been traveling around. I've seen him in China, some events I've been to. >> Joseph: All over. >> He's really working hard so props to him. We gave him some great props earlier. But he also told us Shanghai is coming online. >> Joseph: Yeah. >> So you got Shanghai, you to Barcelona next year for the European show, and of course Seattle. This is a community celebrating right now because there's a lot of high fives going on right now because there's a lot of cool, we've got some sort of core standard, defacto standard, now let's go to work. What are you working on now? You got a stealth startup? Share a little bit about it. I know you don't want to give the details out, but where is it kind of above the stack? Where you going to be playing? >> Sure, so we're not talking too much in terms of specifics and we're pretty stealthy, but I can tell you what I'm personally very excited about in terms of where Kubernetes is going and kind of where this ecosystem is starting to mature for practitioners, for enterprises. So one of the things that I think Kubernetes is starting to bring to bear is this idea of commoditizing distributed systems for everyday developers, for everyday enterprises. And I think that that is sort of the first time in sort of maybe, maybe the history of software development, software engineering and building applications, we're standardizing on a set of primitives, a set of building blocks for distributed system style programming. You know we had in previous eras things like Erlang and fault tolerant programming and frameworks, but those were sort of like pocketed into different programming communities and different types of stacks. I think Kubernetes is the one sort of horizontal technology that the industry's adopting and it's giving us these amazing properties, so I think some of the things that we're focusing on or excited about involve sort of the programming layer on top of Kubernetes in simplifying the experience of kind of bringing all stateful and enterprise workloads and different types of application paradigms natively into Kubernetes without requiring a developer to really understand and learn the Kubernetes primitives themselves. >> That's next level infrastructure as code. Yeah so as Kubernetes becomes more successful, as Kubernetes succeeds at a larger and larger scale, people simply shouldn't have to know or understand the internals. There's a lot of people, I think Kelsey and a few other people, started to talk about Kubernetes as the Linux kernel of distributed computing or distributed systems, and I think that's a really great way of looking at it. You know, do programmers make file system calls directly when they're building their applications? Do they script directly against the kernel for maybe some very high performance things. But generally speaking when you're writing a service or you're writing a microservice or some business logic, you're writing at a higher level of abstraction and a language that's doing some IO and maybe some reading and writing files, but you're using higher level abstractions. So I think by the same token, the focus today with Kubernetes is people are learning this API. I think over time people are going to be programming against that API at a higher level. And what are you doing here, the show? Obviously you're (mumbles) so you're doing some (mumbles) intelligence. Conversations you've been in, can you share your opinion of what's going on here? Your thoughts on the content program, the architecture, the decisions they've made. >> I think we've just, so lots of questions in there. What am I doing here? I just get so energized and I'm so, I just get reinvigorated kind of being here and talking to people and it's just super cool to see a lot of old faces, people who've been here for a while, and you know, one of the things that excites me, and this is just like proof that the event's gotten so huge. I walk around and I see a lot of familiar faces, but more than 80, 90% of people I've never seen before, and I'm like wow this has like gotten really super huge mainstream. Talking with some customers, getting a good sense of kind of what's going on. I think we've seen two really huge kind of trends come out of the event. One is this idea of multicloud sort of as a focus area, and you've talked with Bassam at Upbound and the sort of multicloud control plane, kind of need and demand out there in the community and the user base. I think what Bassam's doing is extremely exciting. The other, so multicloud is a really big paradigm that most companies are sort of prioritizing. Kubernetes is available now on all the cloud providers, but how do we actually adopt it in a way that is agnostic to any cloud provider service. That's one really big trend. The second big thing that I think we're starting to see, just kind of across a lot of talks is taking the Kubernetes API and extending it and wrapping it around stateful applications and stateful workloads, and being able to sort of program that API. And so we saw the announcement from Red Hat on the operator framework. We've seen projects like Kube Builder and other things that are really about sort of building native custom Kubernetes APIs for your applications. So extensibility, using the Kubernetes API as a building block, and then multicloud. I think those are really two huge trends happening here. >> What is your view on, I'm actually going to put you on test here. So Red Hat made a bet on Kubernetes years ago when it was not obvious to a lot of the other big wales. >> Joseph: From the very beginning really. >> Yeah from the very beginning. And that paid off huge for Red Hat as an example. So the question is, what bets should people be making if you had to lay down some thought leadership on this here, 'cause you obviously are in the middle of it and been part of the beginning. There's some bets to be made. What are the bets that the IBMs and the HPs and the Cisco's and the big players have to make and what are the bets the startups have to make? >> Well yeah, there's two angles to that. I mean, I think the investment startups are making, are different set of investments and motivated differently than the multinational, huge, you know, technology companies that have billions of dollars. I think in the startup category, startups just should really embrace Kubernetes for speeding the way they build reliable and scalable applications. I think really from the very beginning Kubernetes is becoming kind of compelling and reasonable even at a very small scale, like for two or three node environment. It's becoming very easy to run and install and manage. Of course it gives you a lot of really great properties in terms of actually running, building your systems, adopting microservices, and scaling out your application. And that's what's sort of like a direct end user use case, startups, kind of building their business, building their stack on Kubernetes. We see companies building products on top of Kubernetes. You see a lot of them here on the expo floor. That's a different type of vendor startup ecosystem. I think there's lots of opportunities there. For the big multinationals, I think one really interesting thing that hasn't really quite been done yet, is sort of treating Kubernetes as a first-class citizen as opposed to a way to commercialize and enter a new market. I think one of the default ways large technology companies tend to look at something hypergrowth like Kubernetes and TensorFlow and other projects is wrapping around it and commercializing in some way, and I think a deeper more strategic path for large companies could be to really embed Kubernetes in the core kind of crown jewel IP assets that they have. So I'll give you an example, like, for let's just take SAP, I'll just pick on SAP randomly, for no reason. This is one of the largest enterprise software companies in the world. I would encourage the co-CEOs of SAP, for example. >> John: There's only one CEO now. >> Is there one CEO now? Okay. >> John: Snabe left. It's now (drowned out by talking). >> Oh, okay, gotcha. I haven't been keeping up on the SAP... But let's just say, you know, a CEO boardroom level discussion of replatforming the entire enterprise application stack on something like Kubernetes could deliver a ton of really core meaningful benefits to their business. And I don't think like deep super strategic investments like that at that level are being made quite yet. I think at a certain point in time in the future they'll probably start to be made that way. But that's how I would like look at smart investments on the bigger scale. >> We're not seeing scale yet with Kubernetes, just the toe is in the water. >> I think we're starting to see scale, John. I think we are. >> John: What's the scale number in clusters? >> I'll give you the best example, which came up today, and actually really surprised me which I think was a super compelling example. The largest retailer in China, so essentially the Amazon of China, JD.com, is running in production for years now at 20,000 compute nodes with Kubernetes, and their largest cluster is a 5,000 node cluster. And so this is pushing the boundary of the sort of production-- >> And I think that may be the biggest one I've heard. >> Yeah, that's certainly, I mean for a disclosed user that's pretty huge. We're starting to see people actually talk publicly about this which is remarkable. And there are huge deployments out there. >> We saw Tyler Jewell come on from WSO2. He's got a new thing called Ballerina. New programming language, have you seen that? >> Joseph: I have, I have. >> Thoughts on that? What's your thoughts on that? >> You know, I think that, so I won't make any particular specific comments on Ballerina, I'm not extremely informed on it. I did play with a little bit, I don't want to give any of my opinions, but what I'd say, and I think Tyler actually mentioned this, one of the things that I believe is going to be a big deal in the coming years, is so, trying to think of Kubernetes as an implementation detail, as the kernel, do you interact directly with that? Do you learn that interface directly? Are you sort of kind of optimizing your application to be sort of natively aware of those abstractions? I think the answer to all of those questions is no, and Kubernetes is sort of delegated as a compiler target, and so frankly like directionally speaking, I think what Ballerina's sort of design is aspiring towards is the right one. Compile time abstraction for building distributed systems is probably the next logical progression. I like to think of, and I think Brendan Burns has started to talk about this over the last year or two. Everyone's writing assembly code 'cause we're swimming yaml and configuration based designs and systems. You know, sort of pseudodeclarative, but more imperative in static configurations. When in reality we shouldn't be writing these assembly artifacts. We should be delegating all of this complexity to a compiler in the same way that you know, we went from assembly to C to higher level languages. So I think over time that starts to make a lot of sense, and we're going to see a lot of innovation here probably. >> What's your take on the community formation? Obviously, it's growing, so, any observations, any insight for the folks watching what's happening in the community, patterns, trends you'd see, like, don't like. >> I think we could do a better job of reducing politics amongst the really sort of senior community leaders, particularly who have incentives behind their sort of agendas and sort of opinions, since they work for various, you know, large and small companies. >> Yeah, who horse in this race. >> Sure, and there's, whether they're perverse incentives or not, I think net the project has such a high quality genuine, like humble, focused group of people leading it that there isn't much pollution and negativity there. But I think there could be a higher standard in some cases. Since the project is so huge and there are so many very fast moving areas of evolution, there tends to be sort of a fast curve toward many cooks being in the kitchen, you know, when new things materialize and I think that could be better handled. But positive side, I think like the project is becoming incredibly diverse. I just get super excited to see Aparna from Google leading the project at Google, both on the hosted Saas offering and the Kubernetes project. People like Liz and others. And I just think it's an awesome, welcoming, super diverse community. And people should really highlight that more. 'Cause I think it's a unique asset of the project. >> Well you're involved in some deep history. I think we're going to be looking this as moment where there was once a KubeCon that was not part of the CNCF, and you know, you did the right thing, did a good thing. You could have kept it to yourself and made some good cash. >> It's definitely gotten really big, and it's way beyond me now at this point. >> Those guys did a good job with CNCF. >> They're doing phenomenal. I think vast majority of the credit, at this scale, goes to Chris Anasik and Dan Conn, and the events team at the Linux Foundation, CNCF, and obviously Kelsey and Liz and Michelle Noorali and many others. But blood, sweat, and tears. It's no small feat pulling off an event like this. You know, corralling the CFP process, coordinating speakers, setting the themes, it's a really huge job. >> And now they got to deal with all the community, licenses, Lauren your thoughts? >> Well they're consistent across Apache v2 I believe is what Dan said, so all the projects under the CNCF are consistently licensed. So I think that's great. I think they actually have it together there. You know, I do share your concerns about the politics that are going on a little bit back and forth, the high level, I tend to look back at history a little bit, and for those of us that remember JBoss and the JBoss fork, we're a little bit nervous, right? So I think that it's important to take a look at that and make sure that that doesn't happen. Also, you know, open stack and the stuff that we've talked about before with distros coming out or too many distros going to be hitting the street, and how do we keep that more narrow focused, so this can go across-- >> Yeah, I started this, I like to list rank and iterate things, and I started with this sheet of all the vendors, you know, all the Kubernetes vendors, and then Linux Foundation, or CNCF took it over, and they've got a phenomenal sort of conformance testing and sort of compliance versioning sheet, which lists all the vendors and certification status and updates and so on and I think there's 50 or 60 companies. On one hand I think that's great, because it's more innovation, lots of service providers and offerings, but there is a concern that there might be some fragmentation, but again, this is a really big area of focus, and I think it's being addressed. Yeah, I think the right ones will end up winning, right? >> Joseph: Right, for sure. >> and that's what's going to be key. >> Joseph: Healthy competition. >> Yes. >> All right final question. Let's go around the horn. We'll start with you JJ, wrapping up KubeCon 2018, your thoughts, summary, what's happened here? What will we talk about next year about what happened this week in Denmark? >> I think this week in Denmark has been a huge turning point for the growth in Europe and sort of proof that Kubernetes is on like this unstoppable inflection, growth curve. We usually see a smaller audience here in Europe, relative to the domestic event before it. And we're just seeing the numbers get bigger and bigger. I think looking back we're also going to see just the quality of end users and the end user community and more production success stories starting to become front and center, which I think is really awesome. There's lots of vendors here. But I do believe we have a huge representation of end users and companies actually sharing what they're doing pragmatically and really changing their businesses from Financial Times to Cern and physics projects, and you know, JD and other huge companies. I think that's just really awesome. That's a unique thing of the Kubernetes project. There's some hugely transformative companies doing awesome things out there. >> Lauren your thoughts, summary of the week in Denmark? >> I think it's been awesome. There's so much innovation happening here and I don't want to overuse that word 'cause I think it's kind of BS at some point, but really these companies are doing new things, and they're taking this to new levels. I think that hearing about the excitement of the folks that are coming here to actually learn about Kubernetes is phenomenal, and they're going to bring that back into their companies, and you're going to see a lot more actually coming to Europe next year. I also true multicloud would be phenomenal. I would love that if you could actually glue those platforms together, per se. That's really what I'm looking for. But also security. I think security, there needs to be a security seg. We talked to customers earlier. That's something they want to see. I think that that needs to be something that's brought to the table. >> That's awesome. My view is very simple. You know I think they've done a good job in CNCF and Linux Foundation, the team, building the ecosystem, keeping the governance and the technical and the content piece separate. I think they did a good job of showing the future state that we'd like to get to, which is true multicloud, workload portability, those things still out of reach in my opinion, but they did a great job of keeping the tight core. And to me, when I hear words like defacto standard I think of major inflection points where industries have moved big time. You think of internetworking, you think of the web, you think of these moments where that small little tweak created massive new brands and created a disruptor enabler that just created, changed the game. We saw Cisco coming out of that movement of IP with routers you're seeing 3Com come out of that world. I think that this change, this new little nuance called Kubernetes is going to be absolutely a defacto standard. I think it's definitely an inflection point and you're going to see startups come up with new ideas really fast in a new way, in a new modern global architecture, new startups, and I think people are going to be blown away. I think you're going to see fast rising growth companies. I think it's going to be an investment opportunity whether it's token economics or a venture backer private equity play. You're going to see people come out of the wood work, real smart entrepreneur. I think this is what people have been waiting for in the industry so I mean, I'm just super excited. And so thanks for coming on. >> Thank you for everything you do for the community. I think you truly extract the signal from the noise. I'm really excited to see you keep coming to the show, so it's really awesome. >> I appreciate your support, and again we're co-developing content in the open. Lauren great to host with you this week. >> Thank you, it's been awesome. >> And you got a great new venture, high five there. High five to the founder of KubeCon. This is theCUBE, not to be confused with KubeCon. And we're theCUBE, C-U-B-E. I'm John Furrier, thanks for watching. It's a wrap of day two global coverage here exclusively for KubeCon 2018, CNCF and the Linux Foundation. Thanks for watching. (techno music)

>> Announcer: Live from Copenhagen, Denmark, it's theCUBE covering KubeCon and CloudNativeCon Europe 2018. Brought to you by the Cloud Native Computing Foundation and its ecosystem partners. >> Hello, everyone, welcome back to theCUBE's exclusive coverage here in Copenhagen, Denmark for coverage of KubeCon 2018, part of the CNCF CloudNative Compute Foundation, part of the Linux Foundation, I'm John Furrier with my cohost, Lauren Cooney, the founder of Spark Labs. We're here with Kelsey Hightower, co-chair of the program as well as a staff engineer, developer, advocate, at Google Cloud Platform, a celebrity in the industry, dynamic, always great to have you on, welcome back. >> Awesome, good to be back. >> How are you feeling, tired? You've got the energy, day two? >> I'm good, I finished my keynote yesterday. My duties are done, so I get to enjoy the conference like most attendees. >> Great. Keynote was phenomenal, got good props. Great content format, very tight, moving things along. A little bit of a jab at some of the cloud providers. Someone said, "Oh, Kelsey took a jab at the cloud guys." What was that about, I mean, there was some good comments on Twitter, but, keeping it real. >> Honestly, so I work at a cloud provider, so I'm part of the cloud guys, right? So I'm at Google Cloud, and what I like to do is, and I was using Amazon's S3 in my presentation, and I was showing people basically like the dream of, in this case, serverless, here's how this stuff actually works together right now. We don't really need anything else from the cloud providers. Here's what you can do right now, so, I like to take a community perspective, When I'm on the stage, so I'm not here only to represent Google and sell for Google. I'm here to say, "Hey, here's what's possible," and my job is to kind of up-level the thinking. So that was kind of the goal of that particular presentation is like, here's all this stuff, let's not lock it all down to one particular provider, 'cause this is what we're here for, KubeCon, CloudNativeCon, is about taking all of that stuff and standardizing it and making it accessible. >> And then obviously, people are talking about the outcome, that that's preferred right now in the future, which is a multi-cloud workload portability. Kubernetes is playing a very key role in obviously the dev ops, people who have been doing it for many many years, have eaten glass, spit nails, custom stuff, have put, reaped the benefits, but now they want to make it easy. They don't want to repeat that, so with Kubernetes nice formation, a lot of people saying here on theCUBE and in the hallways that a de facto standard, the word actually said multiple times here. Interesting. >> Yeah, so you got Kubernetes becoming the de facto standard for computes, but not events, not data, not the way you want to compute those events or data, so the job isn't complete. So I think Kubernetes will solve a large portion of compute needs, thumbs up, we're good to go. Linux has done this for the virtualization layer, Kubernetes is doing it for the containerization, but we don't quite have that on the serverless side. So it's important for us all to think about where the industry is going and so it's like, hey, where the industry is moving to, where we are now, but it's also important for us to get ahead of it, and also be a part of defining what the next de facto standard should be. >> And you mentioned community, which is important, because I want to just bring this up, there's a lot of startups in the membership of CNCF, and when you have that first piece done, you mentioned the other work to be done, that's an opportunity to differentiate. This is the commercialization opportunity to strike that balance. Your reaction to that, how do you see that playing out? Because it is an opportunity to create some value. >> Honestly I'm wearing a serverless.com T-shirt right now, right, that's the startup in the space. They're trying to make serverless easy to use for everyone, regardless of the platform. I think no matter what side of the field you stand on, we need these groups to be successful. They're independent companies, they're going for ambition, they're trying to fill the gaps in what we're all doing, so if they're successful, they just make a bigger market for everyone else, so this is why not only do we try to celebrate them, we try to give them this feedback, like, "Hey, here's what we're doing, "here's what the opportunities are," so I think we need them to be successful. If they all die out every time they start something, then we may not have people trying anymore. >> And I think there's actually a serverless seg in the CNCF, right? And I think that they're doing a lot of great work to kind of start to figure out what's going on. I mean, are you aware what those guys are up to? >> Exactly, so the keynote yesterday was largely about some of the work they're doing. So you mentioned the serverless seg, and CNCF. So some of the work that they're doing is called cloud events. But they wanted to standardize the way we take these events from the various providers, we're not going to make them all work the same way, but what we can do is capture those events in a standard way, and then help define a way to transport those between different providers if you will, and then how those responses come back. So at least we can start to standardize at least that part of the layer, and if Google offers you value, or Amazon offers you value, you own the data, and that data generates events, you can actually move it wherever you want, so that's the other piece, and I'm glad that they're getting in front of it. >> Well I think goal is, obviously, if I'm using AWS, and then I want to use Asher, and then I want to go to Google Cloud, or I want my development teams are using different components, and features, in all of them, right? You want to be able to have that portability across the cloud-- >> And we say together, so the key part of that demo was, if you're using one cloud provider for a certain service, in this case, I was using Google Translate to translate some data, but maybe your data lives in Amazon, the whole point was that, be notified that your data's in Amazon, so that it can be fired off an event into Google, function runs a translation, and writes the data back to Amazon. There are customers that actually do this today, right? There are different pieces of stacks that they want to be able to access, our goal is to make sure they can actually do that in a standard way, and then, show them how to do it. >> A lot of big buzz too also going on around Kubeflow, that Google co-chaired, or co-founded, and now part of the CNCF, Istio service meshes, again, this points to the dots that are connecting, which is okay, I got Kubernetes, we got containers, now Istio, what's your vision on that, how did that play out? An opportunity certainly to abstract the weights of complexity, what's your thoughts on Istio? >> So I think there's going to be certain things, things like Istio, there are parts of Istio that are very low level, that if done right, you may never see them. That's a good thing, so Istio comes in, and says, "Look, it's one thing to connect applications together, "which Kubernetes can help you do "with this built-in service discovery, "how does one app find the other app," but then it's another thing to lock down security and implement policy, this app can talk to this app under these conditions. Istio comes in, brings that to the playing field. Great, that's a great addition. Most people will probably wrap that in some higher-level platform, and you may never see it! Great! Then you mention Kubeflow, now this is a workflow, or at least an opinionated workflow, for doing machine-learning, or some analytics work. There's too many pieces! So if we start naming every single piece that you have to do, or we can say, "Look, we know there's a way that works, "we'll give it a name, we'll call it Kubeflow," and then what's going to happen there is the community's going to rally around actually more workflow, we have lots of great technology wrapped underneath all of that, but how should people use it? And I think that's what I'm actually happy to see now that we're in like year four or five of this thing, as people are actually talking about how to people leverage all of these things that fall below? >> As the IQ starts to increase with cloud-native, you're seeing enterprises, and there's levels of adoption, the early adopters, you know, the shiny new toy, are pushing the envelope, fast followers coming in, then you got the mainstream coming in, so mainstream, there's a lot of usage and consumption of containers, very comfortable with that, now they're bumping into Kubernetes, "Oh wow, this is great," different positions of the adoption. What's your message to each one, mainstream, fast followers, early adoptives, the early adoptives keep pushing, keep bringing that community together, form the community, fast forward. What's the position, what's the Kelsey Hightower view of each one of those points of the evolution? >> So I think we need a new model. So I think that model is kind of out now. Because if you look at the vendor relationships now, so the enterprise typically buys off the shelf when it's mature and ready to go. But at this point now, a lot of the library is all in the programming languages, if you see a language or library that you need, if it's on GitHub, you look around, it's like, "We're going to use this open-source library, "'cause we got to ship," right? So, they started doing early adoption maybe at the library level. Now you're starting to see it at the service level. So if I go to my partner or my vendor, and they say, "Hey, the new version of our software requires Kubernetes." Now, that's a little bit early for some of these enterprises to adopt, but now you're having the vendor relationship saying, "We will help you with Kubernetes." And also, a lot of these enterprises, it's early? Guess what, they have contributors to these projects. They helped design them. I remember back in the day, when I was in financial services, JPMC came out with their own messaging standard, so banks could communicate with each other. They gave that to Red Hat, and Red Hat turns it into a product, and now there's a new messaging standard. That kicked off ten years ago, and now we're starting to see these same enterprises contribute to Kubernetes. So I think now, there's a new model where, if it's early, enterprises are becoming the contributors, donating to the foundations, becoming members of things like CNCF, and on the flip side, they may still use their product, but they want a say in their future. >> So you can jump in at any level as a company, you don't need to wait for the mainstream, you can have a contributor, and in the front wave, to help shepherd through. >> Yeah, you need more say, I think when people bought typical enterprise software, if there wasn't a feature in there, you waited for the vendor to do it, the vendor comes up with their feature, and tells you it's going to cost another 200 million dollars for this add-on, and you have no say into the progress of it, or the speed of it. And then we moved to a world where there was APIs. Look, here's APIs, you can kind of build your own thing on top, now, the vendor's like, "You know what? "I'm going to help actually build the product that I rely on," so if vendor A is not my best partner right now, I could pick a different vendor and say, "Hey, I want a relationship, around this open-source "ecosystem, you have some features I like right now, "but I may want to able to modify them later." I think that's where we are right now. >> Well I think also the emergence of open-source offices, and things like that, and, you know, enterprises that are more monolithic, have really helped to move things forward with their users and their developers. I'm seeing a lot of folks here that are actually coming from larger companies inside of Europe, and they're actually trying to learn Kubernetes now, and they are here to bring that back into their companies, that they want to know about what's going on, right? >> That's a good observation-- >> It's great. >> That open-source office is replacing the I'm the vendor management person. >> Well you need legal-- >> Exactly. >> And you need all of those folks to just get the checkmarks, and get the approval, so that folks can actually take code in, and if it's under the right license, which is super important, or put code back out. >> And it seemed to be some of the same people that were managing the IBM relationship. The people that were managing the big vendor relationship, right? This thing's going to cost us all this cash, we got to make sure that we're getting the right, we're complying with the licensing model, that we're not using more than we paid for, in case we get an audit, the same group has some of the similar skills needed to shepherd their way through the open-source landscape, and then, in many cases, hiring in some of those core developers, to sit right in the organization, to give back, and to kind of have that first-tier support. >> That's a really good point, Lauren. I think this is why I think CNCF has been so successful is, they've kind of established the guardrails, and kind of the cultural notion of commercializing, while not foregoing the principles of open-source, so the operationalizing of open-source is really huge-- >> I'm kind of laughing over here, because, I started the open-source organization at Cisco, and Cisco was not, was new to open-source, and we had to put open data into the Linux Foundation, and I just remember the months of calls I was on, and the lawyers that I got to know, and-- >> You got scar tissue to prove it, too. >> I do, and I think when we did CNCF, I was talking to Craig years ago when we kind of kicked that off, it was really something that we wanted to do differently, we wanted to fast track it, we had the exact license that we wanted, we had the players that we wanted, and we really wanted to have this be something community-based, which I think, Kelsey, you've said it right there. It's really the communities that are coming together that you're seeing here. What else are you seeing here? What are the interesting projects that you see, that are kind of popping up, we have some, but are there others that you see? >> Well, so now, these same enterprises, now they have the talent, or at least not letting the talent leave, the talent now is like, "Well, we have an idea, and it's not core "to our business, let's open-source it." So, Intuit just inquired this workflow, small little start-up project, Argo, they're Intuit now, and maybe they had a need internally, suck in the right people, let the project continue, throw that Intuit logo there, and then sometimes you just see tools that are just being built internally, also be product ties from this open-source perspective, and it's a good way for these companies to stay engaged, and also to say, "Hey, if we're having this problem, "so are other people," so this is new, right? This open-source usually comes from the vendors, maybe a small group of developers, but now you're starting to see the companies say, "You know what, let's open-source our tool as well," and it's really interesting, because also they're pretty mature. They've been banked, they've been used, they're real, someone depends on them, and they're out. Interesting to see where that goes. >> Well yeah, Derek Hondell, from VMware, former Linux early guy, brought the same question. He says, "Don't confuse project with product." And to your point about being involved in the project, you can still productize, and then still have that dual relationship in a positive way, that's really a key point. >> Exactly, we're all learning how to share, and we're learning what to share. >> Okay, well let's do some self awareness here, well, for you, program's great, give you some props on that, you did a great job, you guys are the team, lot of high marks, question marks that are here that we've heard is security. Obviously, love Kubernetes, everyone's high-fiving each other, got to get back to work to reality, security is a conversation. Your thoughts on how that's evolving, obviously, this is front and center conversation, with all this service meshes and all these new services coming up, security is now being fought in the front end of this. What's your view? >> So I think the problem with security from certain people is that they believe that a product will come out that they can buy, to do security. Every time some new platform, oh, virtualization security. Java security. Any buzzword, then someone tries to attach security. >> It's a bolt-on. >> It's, yeah. So, I mean, most people think it's a practice. The last stuff that I seen on security space still applies to the new stack, it's not that the practice changed. Some of the threat models are the same, maybe some new threat models come up, or new threat models are aggravated because of the way people are using these platforms. But I think a lot of companies have never understood that. It's a practice, it will never be solved, there's nothing you can buy or subscribe to-- >> Not a silver bullet. >> Like antivirus, right? I'm only going to buy antivirus, as long as I run it, I should never get a virus. It's like, "No!" That's not how that works. The antivirus will be able to find things it knows about. And then you have to have good behavior to prevent having a problem in the first place. And I think security should be the same way, so I think what people need to do now, is they're being forced back into the practice of security. >> John: Security everywhere, basically. >> It's just a thing you have to do no matter what, and I think what people have to start doing with this conversation is saying, "If I adopt Kubernetes, does my threat model change?" "Does the container change the way I've locked down the VM?" In some cases, no, in some cases, yes. So I think when we start to have these conversations, everyone needs to understand the question you should ask of everyone, "What threat model should I be worried about, "and if it's something that I don't understand or know," that's when you might want to go look for a vendor, or go get some more training to figure out how you can solve it. >> And I think, Tyler Jewell was on from Ballerina, and he was talking about that yesterday, in terms of how they actually won't, they assume that the code is not secure. That is the first thing that they do when they're looking at Ballerina in their programming language, and how they actually accept code into it, is just they assume it's not secure. >> Oh exactly, like at Google we had a thing, we called it BeyondCorp. And there's other aspects to that, if you assume that it's going to be bad if someone was inside of your network, then pretend that someone is already inside your network and act accordingly. >> Yep, exactly, it's almost the reverse of the whitelisting. Alright, so let me ask you a question, you're in a unique position, glad to have you here on theCUBE, thanks for coming on and sharing your insights and perspective, but you also are the co-chair of this progress, so you get to see the landscape, you see the 20 mile stare, you have to have that long view, you also work at Google, which gives a perspective of things like BeyondCorp, and all of the large-scale work at Google, a lot of people want to, they're buying into the cloud-native, no doubt about it, there's still some educational work on the peoples' side, and process, and operationalizing it, with open-source, et cetera, but they want to know where the headroom is, they want to know, as you said, where's the directionally correct vector of the industry. So I got to ask you, in your perspective, where's all this going? For the folks watching who just want to have a navigation, paint the picture, what's coming directionally, shoot the arrow forward, as service meshes, as you start having this service layer, highly valuable, creative freedom to do things, what's the Kelsey vision on-- >> So I think this world of computing, after the mainframe, the mainframe, you want to process census data, you walk up, give it, it spits it back out. To me, that is beautiful. That's like almost the ultimate developer workflow. In, out. Then everyone's like, "I want my own computer, "and I want my own programming language, "and I want to write it in my basement, "without the proper power, or cords, or everything, "and we're all going to learn how "to do computing from scratch." And we all learnt, and we have what we call a legacy. All the mistakes I've made, but I maintain, and that's what we have! But the ultimate goal of computing is like the calculator, I want to be able to have a very simple interface, and the computer should give me an answer back. So where all this is going, Istio, service mesh, Kubernetes, cloud-native, all these patterns. Here's my app, run it for me. Don't ask me about auto scale groups, and all, run it for me. Give me a security certificate by default. Let's encrypt. Makes it super easy for anyone to get a tailored certificate rotated to all the right things. So we're slowly getting to a world where you can ask the question, "Here's my app, run it for me," and they say, "Here's the URL, "and when you hit this URL, we're going to do "everything that we've learned in the past "to make it secure, scalable, work for you." So that may be called open-shift, in its current implementation with Red Hat, Amazon may call it Lambda, Google Cloud may call it GKE plus some services, and we're never going to stop until the experience becomes, "Here's my app, run it for me." >> A resource pool, just programmability. And it's good, I think the enterprises are used to lifting and shifting, I mean, we've been through the evolution of IT, as we build the legacy, okay, consolidation, server consolidation, oh, hello VMs, now you have lift and shift. This is not a lift and shift kind of concept, cloud-native. It is a-- >> It doesn't have to be a lift and shift. So some people are trying to make it a lift and shift thing, where they say, "Look, you can bolt-on some of the stuff "that you're seeing in the new," and some consultants are like, "Hey, we'll sit their and roll up the sleeves, "and give you what we can," and I think that's an independent thing from where we're pushing towards. If you're ready, there's going to be a world, where you give us your code, and we run it, and it's scary for a lot of people, because they're going to be like, "Well, what do I do?" "What knobs do I twist in that world?" So I think that's just, that's where it's going. >> Well, in a world of millions of services coming out on the line, it's in operating, automation's got to be key, these are principles that have to go get bought into. I mean, you got to understand, administration is the exception, not the rule. This is the new world. It's kind of the Google world, and large-scale world, so it could be scary for some. I mean, you just bump into people all the time, "Hey Kelsey, what do I do?" And what do you say to them? You say, "Hey, what do I do?" What's the playbook? >> Often, so, it's early enough. I wasn't born in the mainframe time. So I'm born in this time. And right now when you look at this, it's like, well, this is your actual opportunity to contribute to what it should do. So if you want to sit on the sidelines, 'cause we're in that period now, where that isn't the case. And everyone right now is trying to figure out how to make it the case, so they're going to come up with their ways of doing things, and their standards, and then maybe in about ten years, you'll be asked to just use what we've all produced. Or, since you're actually around early enough, you can participate. That's what I tell people, so if you don't want to participate, then you get the checkpoints along the way. Here's what we offer, here's what they offer, you pick one, and then you stay on this digital transformation to the end of time. Or, you jump in, and realize that you're going to have a little bit more control over the way you operate in this landscape. >> Well, jumping in the deep end of the pool has always been the philosophy, get in and learn, and you'll survive, with a lot of community support, Kelsey, thanks for coming on, final question for you, surprise is, you're no longer going to be the co-chair, you've co-chaired up to this point, you've done a great job, what surprised you about KubeCon, the growth, the people? What are some of the things that have jumped out at you, either good, surprise, what you did expect, not expect, share some commentary on this movement, KubeCon and CloudNative. >> Definitely surprised that it's probably this big this fast, right? I thought people, definitely when I saw the technology earlier on, I was like, "This is definitely a winner," "regardless of who agrees." So, I knew that early on. But to be this big, this fast, and all the cloud providers agreeing to use it and sell it, that is a surprise, I figured one or two would do it. But to have all of them, if you go to their website, and you read the words Kubernetes' strong competitors, well alright, we all agree that Kubernetes is okay. That to me is a surprise that they're here, they have booths, they're celebrating it, they're all innovating on it, and honestly, this is one of those situations that, no matter how fast they move, everyone ends up winning on this particular deal, just the way Kubernetes was set up, and the foundation as a whole, that to me is surprising that it's still true, four years later. >> Yeah, I mean rising tide floats all boats, when you have an enabling, disruptive technology like Kubernetes, that enables people to be successful, there's enough cake to be eating for everybody. >> Awesome. >> Kelsey Hightower, big time influencer here, inside theCUBE cloud, computing influencer, also works at Google as a developer advocate, also co-chair of KubeCon 2018, I wish you luck in the next chapter, stepping down from the co-chair role-- >> Stepping down from the co-chair, but always in the community. >> Always in the community. Great voice, great guy to have on theCUBE, check him out online, his great Twitter feed, check him out on Twitter, Kelsey Hightower, here on theCUBE, I'm joined here by Lauren Cooney, be right back with more coverage here at KubeCon 2018, stay with us, we'll be right back. (bright electronic music)

>> (narrator) Live from Copenhagen Denmark, it's theCUBE covering Kubecon and CloudNativeCon Europe 2018. Brought to you by the Cloud Native Computing Foundation and it's ecosystem partners. >> Hello and welcome to theCUBE. Exclusive coverage of Kubecon 2018 here in Europe. The Linux Foundation, theCUBE's coverage. Again, we're covering Kubecon, Cloud Native Conference, part of the CNCF. I'm John Furrier, host this week here in Europe with Lauren Cooney. Lauren, great to see you. >> Thank you. It's great to be here. >> Cloud, CloudNative is hot, obviously the Cloud Native Compute Foundation, CNCF, part of the Linux Foundation, driving really a pretty incredible growth. >> This is tremendous. >> Onboard and the logos, it's just pretty massive growth in microservices. >> It's just, you're seeing so many interesting things that are actually coming to this show. You know, A there's over 4,000 people here I heard. You know the taxi line was 20 people deep this morning to actually get here for the keynote. And I got to say that, you know, some of the technologies that are coming out are just really tremendous. I mean, we've got some great folks that are going to be coming on the show. Lew Tucker from Cisco and then we've got Tyler Jewell whose going to be talking about a new Cloud Native programming language. I think that's pretty interesting. >> And we've got some great influences as well. We're going to get the commentary. But the big story is, we're in Copenhagen Denmark. Sun's shining. It was raining yesterday but again, great European city. Feels like Amsterdam, got the canals. But the growth in Europe is just, it feels like I'm in North America in just terms of the volume. It's not like a satellite show. Normally in Europe, you see kind of the U.S., North America big tent events and then Europe's kind o' like a sidecar, no pun intended event. But no, it's pretty massive. I mean, you're seeing great developer uptake here in Europe. Cloud is hot. Kubernetes is the talk of the show, >> You know, I, >> SDO among other things. >> Exactly, you know, I think, I've been talking to folks around the conference center and so many of them as actually learning this for the first time and bringing it back to their, you know, large banks or some of their employers, you know, huge European companies that are actually looking to adopt this. And I think it's just phenomenal. >> I was chatting with Abby Kearns last night. I told her I'd give her a quick plug here on theCUBE. She's CEO of Cloud Foundry and we were having a chat. She just did a survey as part of the Cloud Foundry Group that found that outside of our bubble in Silicon Valley and certainly in the influencer sphere, most people have heard of Kubernetes, but actually don't know what it is and kind o' where it's going to be applied. It's one of those things where it's really taken the world by storm, certainly in the classic enterprises but application developers are seeing the goodness of what Kubernetes will do when you look at multiple workloads, workload portability, microservices as the growth of applications become cloudified. >> I think it's >> Kubernetes is key. >> It's key and I think the projects that really are inside of the CNCF are obviously super key as well, like Spyfy, who actually detects kind of workloads and types and you know, does that in an automated way. So, you know, the user doesn't have to figure that out anymore. I think those technologies are really the ones that are going to be you know, changing the landscape of platforms, you know, now and to come. >> Yeah. So Dan Kohn's up on stage, Lew Tucker's up on stage talking about multiclouds from Cisco's perspective. Lauren, you're out there on the streets working with some startups and big companies as they start to transform cloud, what do you see as the key themes of the show, what are the notable highlights for you that you see on the agenda and what are some of the things you're looking for this week in Europe? >> Well, I'm definitely looking to find out really what the news here is. You know, we've got some new projects. We've got some new end users. We've got some awards that are handed out. I really want to get to the root of what's new and what's happening. I think that there are some interesting things that are happening around. You know, we know that growth is explosive in this community. I think that, you know, is very clear. What I don't know is, you know, kind of clear to me yet at least, is really how large CNCF has gotten and how it really going to kind o' fit together and how users are going to take advantage of that entire ecosystem because they're just so many partners now and users. How do you actually pull that together in a way that's going to be workable from, you know, the perspective of a platform? >> To me the big story I like here and certainly what's notable is, and worth talking about is the role Google's playing. If you look at this show, you got some Microsoft here with Azure but really Google's at the centerpiece of this. See Red Hat and all the other industry players are here as well. But Google is driving a lot of open source standards. This is the real kind o', I won't say anti-AWS show but it's kind o' like you got Amazon re:Invent and then you got everybody else. And this is, this show represents to me everybody else because there's a real emphasis on multicloud and workload portability again, not getting a lot into one cloud. Google's pretty upfront about that and they're betting on open source to be that lever to get a good position in the cloud game. >> Well it has to be and I think really what's interesting to is AWS did show up here and they had a, you know, I was actually bouncing between some of the trainings that were going on with Fido, one of the projects and also, you know, what was going on with AWS. They call it their awesome day. And there were a lot of folks attending and a lot of folks interested. So I think it's going to be an interesting game here John. >> Well we have Adrian Cockcroft coming on, obviously, he's with AWS. He's leading the open source efforts for Amazon. And again, not to poke at Amazon but, you know, Amazon is so busy and they announce so much at re:Invent, they're so ahead of the game on cloud, cloud scale, just a number of services that Amazon... (techno music) the cloud has had significant impacts. We covered Amazon's earnings last week, again, at 50% increase. The profit that AWS is throwing off is so notable and so impressive that it really is a bellwhether to me on terms of this cloud transformation. And the key is applications. That is the number one focus we're seeing and how that makes the cloud scale an impact. What are you looking for with applications? What's interesting you, what's interested you there with the applications? >> Any applications that are running from public to, and private across that environment but I want to see multi-public cloud environments as well as on, you know, our private environments too. That to me is interesting. >> Well I want to get your thoughts on another topic that we're going to talk about this week and that is the role of the personnel inside the organization for cloud transformations. So for instance, the role of the admin operators out there, or admins and operators. Certainly at Cisco, DevNet Create that we were recently at, the role of the network manager is moving much more cloud oriented program or infrastructure. But you're seeing Google starting to talk about things like automation is good but yet the role of an operator, they call it at NASA a Site and Reliability Engineer, as the key position for cloud, what's your thought on the personnel equation for cloud within an enterprise within large companies. >> Well the SRE is the new hot role to have, right? I think that there is an increase interest in that audience because they are actually the ones that are troubleshooting a lot of this and looking at a lot of what this strategy is and where to take these things. I think that you know, it's also interesting because as people are looking to aspire to different roles, this is one of the ones that has become more established and is kind of shined upon in the developer world right now. And it's going to be interesting to see if that stays that way or if, you know, they're going to be, you know, what's kind of going to happen there. >> Thoughts on microservices in context, SDO service meshes. Again, last Kubecon we talked about SDO, the service mesh piece of it, with the notion of a modern architecture. How is that playing out in your mind? >> I think it's playing out pretty well. Everyone seems to be on the ciscobus. I also think that, you know, when we talk to Lew Tucker for example, I think we really need to ask him where he sees it going and what's going on with Cisco and the ecosystem at large on that. But everyone is playing and playing nice with those guys. >> I'm interested to get the security update. We're going to have some Google folks on. I want to find out what's new with that and also Google Next is coming up in July, their big cloud show. I'm expecting it be that pretty large event. Google is really going all in on cloud. Certainly, the cloud group within Google's got a lot of investment, a lot of enterprise folks. But the security question in Kubernetes is an interesting one. How to deploy, you know, endpoint security or is it an IOT thing? Is it ship set to operating system to application? I mean this is the open question on Kubernetes is security. >> I don't have a good answer for you there. I think that, you know, that is something we definitely need to dig into as a community and as developers. It's something that, you know, I think is was mentioned in the keynote today and I think we got to continue to to poke at that one. >> Awesome. Well we're here kicking off day one of two days of coverage here at CNCFs Kubecon, John Furrier with Lauren Cooney. Back with more live coverage here in Europe in Denmark. We're in Copenhagen for cube coverage at Kubecon 2018 Europe. (techno music)