>> Announcer: Live from Vancouver, Canada. It's theCUBE covering OpenStack Summit North America 2018, brought to you by Red Hat, the OpenStack Foundation and its ecosystem partners. >> Welcome back, I'm Stu Miniman and my cohost John Troyer and you're watching theCUBE, the worldwide leader in tech coverage and this is exclusive coverage from OpenStack Summit 2018 in Vancouver. Usually this time of year it is a little bit overcast, but for the second time the OpenStack Summit has been here, the sun is shining. It has been gorgeous weather but we are in here really digging in and understanding it One of the people I have gotten to know through this community especially, is our wrap up guest today, Sean Michael Kerner, who is a senior editor with eWeek, amongst other bi-lines that you have. Pleasure to see you. >> Great, good seeing you too Stu. >> Alright, so we let you keep on the Toronto Bluejays hat >> Thank you, there we go. >> We have had quite a few Canadians on our program here. >> Well, seeing as how you're here in Canada, it's not all that surprising. >> It's lovely. They have you working on Victoria Day. >> Yeah, that's unfortunate but I will take Memorial Day off in a week, so it works out. >> Excellent. So Sean, for our audience that might not know you, give us a little bit about your background. You've been to umpteen of these shows. >> Sure. I have been with the same publication roughly, I guess 15-16 years at this point. I've been writing before there was cloud, core living and Opensource stuff, networking. And then through the magic of technology, I shifted a little bit to security, which is a core focus for me. I have been to every OpenStack Summit since the San Diego Summit, I guess, 2011. Somebody can correct me afterwards. I did miss the Sydney Summit for various reasons, but yeah, I've been to a bunch of these things, so interesting to see how things have shifted over the years from nothing to certain heights to where we are now. >> Alright, so bring us up to that, as to where we are now. Attendance is down a little bit. They haven't been talking a lot about it but quality I guess is here. Sessions, they've broadened down a bit of the scope. We have been digging into it, but want to get your take so far. >> Yeah, well it's like anything else, there are standard hype cycles, as it were and there's a trough of disillusionment. I wouldn't call this a trough of disillusionment, but when you get to a certain plateau, people just, there'sn't as much interest. In the early days, I remember the San Diego Summit I went to. They didn't schedule it properly. They didn't know how many people they were going to have, and they had to line up around the corner and stuff. That was six years ago, but that is when OpenStack was new. There was no such thing as the Foundation, and everyone was trying to figure out what was what. And, there was no clue at this point. Cloud is a well understood thing. There are competitive efforts or complimentary efforts, as the Foundation would probably like to put it; whether it's CNCF, there's the public cloud and it's different. There is, with all respect to the OpenStack Foundation and its member projects, there's not as much excitement. This in now a stable, mature ecosystem and because of that, I don't think there's as much of a draw. When something is brand new and shiny, you get more of a draw. If they would have put the name Blockchain somewhere, maybe, maybe they would have had a few more. They put Kubernetes in there, which is fine, but no machine learning or artificial intelligence quite yet, though that's a topic somewhere in there too. >> Yeah, John, you've been making a lot of comments this week talking about we've matured and the lower layer pieces just work a bit more. Give us your take about that. >> Sure. That's the way it seems. There wasn't a whole lot of talk about the release, news release, and all the different components, even the keynotes. But, the people we have talked to, both on the vendor and the customer side, they have working production OpenStack environments. They're very large. They require very few admins. They work. They're embedded in telecom and banking, et cetera. It's here and it's working. >> Yeah, that's so something that happened, maybe three cycles ago at this point, because they used to have the release the same time as the Summit and the Design Summit. It was together, so, there was essentially a celebration of the release. People would talk about the release and then they desegrigated that. I think that took a lot of steam out of the reason why you got developers to attend. So, when you don't have the Design Summit, there's this separate open endeavor, there's the forum, I don't quite understand how that works here now. There isn't as much momentum. Yeah, I agree with you. There has been very little talk about Queens. In each of the project update sessions I have been to, and I have been to a couple, there has always been a slight on Rocky, what's coming. I think we are on the second milestone of Rocky, at this point, so there's some development, but at this point it is incremental featurettes. There is no whiz bang. OK, we're going to have flying cars, you know send a Tesla to outer space kind of Earth shattering kind of news, literally, because that's not where it's at. It's just incremental tuck in features in stability and that kind of thing. >> Alright, you talk space and thinks like that and it brings to mind a certain attendee of the program that has actually been to outer space and maybe one of the more notable moments of the show so far. Give us your take on Mr. Shuttleworth. >> Well, I'm a big fan of Mr. Shuttleworth, top to bottom. Hey Mark. Big fan, always have been. He has his own opinion on things of course. Usually in a keynote you don't tend to take direct aim at competitors and he chose to do that. It made some people a little uncomfortable. I happened to be sitting in the front row, where I like to sit, and there was some Red Hat people, and there were some frantic emails going back and forth. And people were trying to see what was going on et cetera. I think, for me, a little bit of drama is okay. You guys go to more shows than I do, and sometimes you get these kind of sales kind of things. But in an open community, there's almost an unwritten rule, which perhaps will be written after this conference, that whether or not everybody is a business competitor or not, is that this is neutral territory as it were and everybody is kind of friendly. In the exhibit hall, you can say this and that, we are better, whatever, but on the stage you don't necessarily do that, so there was some drama there. Some of my peers wrote about that and I will be writing about it as well. It's a, I prefer to write about technology and not necessarily drama. Whether somebody is faster, better, stronger than others, you let the number prove them out. When we talk about Opensource, Opensource Innovation without Canonical, there probably wouldn't have been an OpenStack. All the initial OpenStack reference and limitations are on Canonical. They got a number of large public clouds, as does Red Hat. I think they both have their tactical merits and I'm sure on some respects Red Hat's better and on some respects Canonical is better, but him standing up there and beating on the competition was something that across the 13 summits I have been I have never seen before. One guy I talked to my first OpenStack Summit was in San Diego and the CTO of VMware at the time came up to, VMware was not an OpenStack contributor at the time, they were thinking about it, and he was fielding questions about how it was competitive or not and he was still complimentary. So there has always been that kind of thing. So, a little bit of an interesting shift, a little bit of drama, and gives this show something memorable, because you and I and others will be able to talk about this five years from now, et cetera. >> You talked about something you would write up. I mean part of your job is to take things back to the readers at eWeek. >> Yeah. >> What are the things, highlights you're going to be covering? >> The highlights for me, Stu and I talked about this at one point off the camera, this is not an OpenStack Summit necessarily, they're calling it Open Infrastructure. I almost thought that they would change, we almost thought that they would change the name of the entire organization to the Open Infrastructure Foundation. That whole shift, and I know the foundation has been talking about that since Sydney last year, that they're going to shift to that, but, that's the take away. The platform itself is not the only thing. Enabling the open infrastructure is nice. They're going to try and play well and where it fits within the whole stack. That gets very confusing because talking about collaboration is all fine and nice, but that is not necessarily news. That is how the hot dog is made and that's nice. But, people want to know what's in that dog and how it is going to work. I think it's a tougher show for me to cover than it has been in past years, because there has been less news. There's no new release. There was Kata 1.0 release and there was the Zuul project coming out on its own. Zuul project, they said it was 3.0, it was actually March was Zuul 3.03. Kata Container project, okay, interesting, we'll see how it goes. But a tougher project, tougher event for me to cover for that reason. Collaboration is all fine and nice. But, the CNCF CloudNativeCon KubeCon event two weeks ago, or three weeks ago, had a little bit more news and a lot it's same kind of issues come up here. So, long winded answer, tough to come up with lessons learned out of this, other than everyone wants to be friends, well some people want to be. And, collaboration is the way forward. But that is not necessarily a new message. >> When I think about Kubernetes, we are talking about the multi cloud world and that's still, the last few years, where it's been. Where does OpenStack really fit in that multi cloud world? One of the things I have been a little disappointed actually, is most of the time, when I'm having a conversation, it's almost the, yeah, there's public cloud, but we are going to claw things back and I need it for governments, and I need all of these other things. When I talk to customers, it is I'm going to choose what I put in my data center. I'm going to choose how I use probably multiple public cloud finders. It is not an anti-public cloud message, and it feels a little bit on the anti-public cloud mass. I want to work with what you're hearing when you >> talk to users? >> When I talk to users, vast majority of people, unless it's something, where there's regulatory issues or certain legacy issues or private cloud, public cloud period. The private cloud idea is gone or mostly gone. When I think about private clouds, it's really VmWare. We have virtualized instances that sitting there. >> What's OpenStack? >> OpenStack is fine, but how many are running OpenStack as a private cloud premise? >> Yeah, so what's OpenStack then? >> When I think of OpenStack, Oracles public cloud. Oracle is not here surprisingly. Oracle's public cloud, Larry Ellison, who I know you guys have spoken to more than once on theCUBE at various points on Oracle World and other things. Oracle's public cloud, they want to compete against AWS. That's all. OpenStack IBM cloud, all OpenStack. The various big providers out of China are OpenStack based. OEH is here. So that's where it fits in is that underlying infrastructure layer. Walmart uses it. Bestbuy, all these other places, Comcast, et cetera; ATT. But individual enterprises, not so much. I have a hard time finding individual enterprises that will tell me we are running our own private cloud as OpenStack. They will tell me they're running VmWare, they will tell me they're running REV or even some flavor of Citrix end server, but not a private cloud. They may have some kind of instances and they will burst out, but it's not, I don't think private cloud for mid tier enterprises ever took off the way some people thought five years ago. >> That's interesting. Let's go meta for a second. You talked about things you do and don't write about, you don't necessarily write the VC's are not here necessarily, but you don't write about necessarily financial stuff. >> Sometimes. There was actually at the Portland summit, I did a panel with press and analysts at the time and afterwards there might have been four different VC's that came up to me and asked me what I thought about different companies. They were looking at different things where they would invest. And I remember, we looked at the board and one VC who shall remain nameless, and I said you know what, we'll look at this board with all these companies and five years from now, three quarters of them will not be here. I think I was probably wrong because it is more than that. There are so many. I wrote a story, I don't remember the exact name of it, but I wrote a story not that long ago about OpenStack deadpool. There are so, multiple companies that raised funding that disappeared. In the networking space, there were things like Plumgrid, they mminorly acquired for assets by Vmware, if I'm not mistaken. There was Pivotal, Joshua McKenzie, one of the co-founders of OpenStack itself, got acquired by Cisco. But they would have collapsed perhaps otherwise. Nebula Computing is perhaps, it still shocks me. They raised whatever it was 50 odd million, someone will correct me afterward. Chris Kemp, CTO of NASA who helped start it. Gone. So, there has been tremendous consolidation. I think when VC's lose money, they lose interest really fast. The other thing you have to think about, from the VC side, they don't write too much on the financial. My good friend Fredrick, who didn't make it, Where are you, Fredrick, where are you? Does more on that funding side. But has there been a big exit for an OpenStack company? Not really, not really. And without that kind of thing, without that precedence it's a tough thing, especially for a market that is now eight years old, give or take. >> Even the exits that had a decent exit, you know that got bought into the say IBM's, Cisco's of the world, and when you look a couple of years later, there's not much left of those organizations. >> Yeah. It's also really hard. People really don't want to compete against, well, some people want to compete against AWS. But, if you're going to try to go toe to toe with them, it's a challenge. >> Okay, so what brings you back here every year? You're speaking at the show. You're talking to people. >> What brings me back here is regardless of the fact that momentum has probably shifted, it's not in that really hype stage, OpenStack's core infrastructure, literally, core infrastructure that runs important assets. Internet assets, whether it certain public cloud vendors, large Fortune 500 companies, or otherwise. So it's an important piece of the stack, whether it's in the hype cycle or not, so that brings me back, because it's important. It brings me back because I have a vested interest. I have written so much about it so I'm curious to see how it continues to evolve. Specifically, I'm speaking here on Thursday doing a panel on defending Cloud Counsel Security as a core competence, a core interest for me. With all these OpenStack assets out there, how they're defended or not is a critical interest. In the modern world, cyber attacks are a given. Everybody should assume they're always under a constant state of attack and how that security works is a core area of interest and why I will keep coming back. I will also keep coming back because I expect there to be another shift. I don't think we have heard the end of the OpenStack story yet. I think the shift towards open infrastructure will evolve a little bit and will come to an interesting conclusion. >> Alright, last thing is what's your favorite question you're asking at this show. Any final things you want to ask us as we wrap? >> Yeah, my favorite, well, I want to ask you guys, what the most interesting answer you got from all the great people you interviewed because I'm sure some of it was negative and you got mostly positive as well. >> Well, we aren't used to answering the questions Stu. >> I'm used to being on the other side here, right. >> Well, I do say we got a lot of stuff about some interesting and juicy cases, like I say, the practitioners I talked to were real. I was always impressed by how few administrators it takes to run a huge OpenStack based cloud once it's set up. I think that's something interesting to me. You asked some folks about a public cloud a lot. >> Yeah, so it has been interesting. For me, it's, we've reached that certain maturity level. I was looking at technology. What's kind of the watermark that this is going to come to? We had said years ago, I don't think you're going to have somebody selling a billion dollars worth of distribution on OpenStack. So, that story with how Kubernetes and Containers and everything fits in, OpenStack is part of the picture, and it might not be the most exciting thing, but then again, if you watch Linux as long as most of us have, Red Hat took a really long time to get a billion dollars and it was much more than just Linux that got them there. This still has the opportunity to be tooling inside the environment. We have talked to a number of users that use it. It's in there. It's not that the flagpole, we're an OpenStack company anymore because there really aren't many companies saying that that is the core of their mission, but that is still an important piece of the overall fabric of what we are covering. >> Exactly right. >> Alright, we on that note, Sean Michael Kerner, we really appreciate you joining us. Please support good technology journalism because it is people like him that help us understand the technology. I read his stuff all the time and always love chatting with him off the record and dragged him on here and Fredrick from Techron Show we are disappointed you could not join us, but we'll get you next time. For Jon Troyer, I'm Stu Miniman, be sure to join us for the third day tomorrow of three days of wall to wall live coverage here from OpenStack Summit 2018 in Vancouver. And once again, thank you for watching theCUBE. (upbeat music)

>> Announcer: Live, from Vancouver, Canada it's the CUBE, covering OpenStack Summit North America 2018, brought to you by Red Hat, the Open Stack Foundation, and it's ecosystem partners. >> Welcome back, I'm Stu Miniman and my cohost John Troyer and you're watching the CUBE, the worldwide leader in tech coverage. Happy to welcome back to the program long time friend of the CUBE back from the earliest days, Randy Bias, Vice President with Juniper, Randy, great to see you. >> Absolutely, great to be back with you guys. >> All right, so Randy, we've been talking about, you know, community, and everything's going good and attendance might be down a little bit but how we fit in with containers and kubernetes, and everything, so we expect you to tear everything up for us and tell us the reality of what's happening in this community. >> I'll do my best (laughing). >> All right, so before we get to the kubernetic stuff, you're working on, we used to call it OpenContrail? Which you were involved in before Juniper acquired it, went through a rebranding recently, Tungsten, which I was looking up, came from the word heavy stone, give us the update from the networking side. >> Yeah, so the short history is that there was a company called Contrail, and they created a software defined networking controller, it was acquired by Juniper in 2012, 2013, and then that was open sourced, so Juniper for a long time was running with sort of two editions, Contrail which was the commercial offering, and OpenContrail which was the open source, and then shortly after I joined Juniper, identified that, you know, we really needed to go back to the drawing board on the way that we had organized the community, and transition it from being Juniper-led to community led, and so over the past year, I spearheaded that effort, and then that culminated in us announcing at the end of March at ONS that, you know, OpenContrail was now Tungsten Fabric. We renamed it, we moved it into the Linux foundation, under its governance, and now Juniper is one of many people of the community that have a seat at the table for the management, both from a business and technical perspective, and we're moving forward with a new reinvigorated community. >> Yeah, so networking sits at really the intersection of this multi-cloud world that we're living in. There's so many players trying to be there, you know Cisco, really moving to become more of a software company, when I interviewed their number two guy at their show, he's like, when you think of Cisco in the future, we're not even going to be a networking company, we'll be a software company. VMware, of course, pushed heavy through, then the Nicira acquisition, where does Tungsten fit, kind of compare and contrast for us, where it fits among some of these other offerings out there in the marketplace. >> Yeah, I mean, I think most enterprise vendors are in a similar transition from being a hardware to software companies. We're no different than any of the rest. I think we have a pretty significant advantage in that we have a lot of growth in the cloud sector, so a lot of the large public clouds are our customers and we're selling a tremendous amount of hardwaring to them, so I think we've got a lot longer runway. But, you know, we just recently hired CTO, Bikash Koley, out of Google, and we're starting to see some additional folks out of Google, like my new boss, Morgan, and what that's bringing with it is a very much a software first type perspective. So Bikash and Morgan really built everything for the Google network from the topper rack all the way out to the win and it's almost all software-based, disaggregated, hardware, software, opensource software running on top of white boxes, and so that kind of perspective is now really deep, start beginning to become embedded in Juniper. And at the head of that is Tungsten. So we see Tungsten Fabric as being sort of a tool that we use to create, you know, a global ubiquitous network fabric, that anybody can use anywhere, without talking to Juniper at all, without knowing that Juniper's part of Tungsten, and then as they grow up and they get to a point where they need multi-cloud, they need federation, or they need kind of day two enterprise operations, you know, we have a commercial version and a commercial distribution that they can use. >> Randy, we talked a little bit about OpenContrail and last year, at OpenStack Summit and moving it to a more of a community based governance model, and now that's happened with the Linux Foundation, can you talk a little bit about the role of opensource governance, and corporate governance, and then foundations, and just going forward, you know, what's an effective model for 2018 going forward, for a foundation-led project and maybe in the context of Tungsten Fabric, and how is that looking? >> Yeah, so again, OpenContrail's now Tungsten Fabrics, might be new for some of the viewers, lot of people still coming to terms with that. And so one of the things that we noticed is that, and when many people go and they say, hey, we want opensource first, the AT&T's of this world, part of what they're saying, one of the aspects of being opensource versus we want to be one of many around the table, we want to have a seat at the table, we want to have the option to contribute code back, and we want to feel like it's a group effort. And so that was a big factor, right? It was an opensource project, but it was largely the governance was carried by Juniper, all the testing infrastructure was Juniper, you know, all of the people who made architectural decisions were Juniper, all of the lead contributors were Juniper, and so, going to Linux Foundation was critical to us having a legal framework, for the trademarks, the code, the licenses, the contributor license agreements, are all owned and operated by the Linux Foundation and not by Juniper, so we basically have a trusted third party who can mediate all those things and create a structure, a governance small structure where Juniper has one seat at the table, and all the other community members do as well. So it was really key to getting, to moving to that model to increase people's interest in the project and to really go the next level. There just wasn't any way to do it without doing this. >> All right, so, Randy, let's talk about OpenStack. You were watching the keynote yesterday, you were, you know, in the Twitter stream, >> Randy: I don't usually watch keynotes, man. >> Stu: But you know this community, so-- >> I do know this community (laughing). >> Give us kind of the good, the bad, and the ugly from your standpoint as to, you know, where we've gone, you know, what's doing well, and what you're frustrated as heck that we still haven't fixed yet. >> Well, I mean, it's great that we have so much inroads amongst the carriers, it's great that, you know, that there's a segment that OpenStack has been able to land in. I mean, at some points when I was feeling particularly pessimistic on some days, I was like, oh man, this thing's never going to go anywhere, so that's great. On the other hand, you know, the promise that we had of sort of being the Linux operating center, operating system of the data center, and you know, really gaining inroads into private cloud and enterprise, that just hasn't materialized and I don't see a path to that. A lot of that has to do with history, I'm not sure how much of that I want to go into here, but I see those as being bright lights. I see the Ocata containers effort and sort of having this alternative structure that's more or less like the umbrella structure that I lobbied for while I was on the board. So for several years on the board, I said we need to really look more like the Apache Software Foundation, we need to look less like the Linux Operating System in terms of how we think about things. Not this big integrated monolithic release, you need more competition between projects and that just wasn't really embraced. And I think that that, in a way, that was one of several things that really kind of limited our ability to capture the market that we really wanted, which is the enterprise market. >> Yeah, well, I know, and one of those sticking points there that I've talked to you many times over the years about is how do I actually deploy this? You know, getting a base configuration and scaling this out, simplicity is tough, getting to those environments, you know, getting it up in two weeks, is good for some environments, but maybe not for others. >> Yeah, I mean I think there's sort of a spectrum, right? At one end of the spectrum, you say hey, I'm going to have a very opinionated approach like kubernetes does, and we're going to limit what we say we can do, you know, we're not all things to all people. And I think that opinionated approach, like the Linux operating system worked very, very well. And then other end of the spectrum is we've got no opinion like the Apache Software Foundation, and then it's up to vendors to go and cherry pick the pieces they want and turn that into some kind of commercial offering, whether it's Hortonworks, or Thi-dare or Du-per or whatever it is, the problem is that OpenStack wound up in the middle where it had the sort of integrated monolithic release cycle which it still does, which started to be all things to all people, and it was never as great as it could be, so it's like we got to support Hyper-V, we got to support VMware, and as the laundry list of all things we have to support grew longer, it became more and more difficult to have a compelling, easy to use, easy to scale offering that any enterprise could consume. >> Randy, a lot of talk this week about edge computing, with several different definitions, right? But it does strike me that, you know, there's a certain set of apps, that you write 'em and that they live fine in a big public cloud, and a big data center somewhere. But there's a lot of hardware that's going to be living out in the world, whether that's at the base of a radio tower, or in a wall, or in my shoe, that is going to be running hardware, and is going to be running something, and sometimes that something can be OpenStack, and we're seeing some examples of it, many examples of that already. Is that an area of growth for OpenStack? Is that an interesting part of how this fabric is going to expand? >> Well, I probably have a contrarian view here. So, I spent a bunch of time at Juniper, one of the things I worked on for a while was edge computing and we're still trying to decide what we want to do there and you know, kind of to the first point you made is everybody's edge is different, right? Is it on the mobile phone, is it back in the data center, the difference is that the real estate gets more expensive as you move out, right? And it's in terms of latency, and it's in terms of bandwidth and it's also in terms of cost of storage and compute. There's a move closer to the mobile device that becomes progressively more expensive, and so that's why a lot of people sort of look and say hey, wouldn't it be nice if we can get you out the closer lower latency and bandwidth and so on but as we looked at it, a lot of the different use cases it became really interesting in that, it wasn't clear if there was that much value between 5 milliseconds and 20 milliseconds, right? I mean, that's pretty, either one's pretty close, sure there's a lot of difference between 20 and a 100, but maybe not so much between 5 and 20. And so we kind of came to the conclusion that at least for right now, probably, the bulk of use cases are fine with 20 milliseconds, and what that means is that regional systems like AWS's Lambda at the Edge, they're in metro, those are probably good for most cases. I don't know that you need to be on the tower, I don't know that you need to be in the central office, so I think edge computing is still nascent, we don't know exactly what all those use cases are, but I think you might be able to service most of them from regional data centers, and then the question really becomes what does that stack need to be and if you have a regional data center that's got plenty of power, plenty of space, then it might be that OpenStack is a good solution, but if you're trying to scale down onto the tower, I got to have some doubts about whether OpenStack can really scale down that far. >> Randy, analytics is something we've been seeing, the networking people used for many years, at this show, starting to hear a lot of discussion about AI and ML, would love your view point as to what you're seeing in that space. >> You know I have some friends who started off in AI in very early days and he had a very pessimistic view. He said, you know this stuff comes and goes, but I'm actually very positive and optimistic about it because the way I look at this is there's a renaissance happening which is that, you know, now ML is really available to masses and you're seeing people do really interesting things like, we have a product called AppFormix, and what they do is they take ML and they apply it to operations and I love this because as an operations guy, you know, I used to have these problems in production where something would go out and the first thing I'd do, is I'm trying to do correlation and then root cause analysis, like, what was the actual failure? Like I can see the symptom on this end and now I have to get all the way back to what caused it, and the reality is that machine learning, AI techniques and protocols can do all the heavy lifting for operators very, very quickly and basically surface a problem for somebody to do the final analysis on. And so I do think that ML and AI apply to very specific vertical problems, it is just a place where we're going to see a tremendous amount of revolution in the next couple years. >> All right, and that hits right at really that intersection between kind of the developers and the operators there-- >> Absolutely. >> What are you seeing from an organizational standpoint, companies you're talking to these days, how are they doing adopting that change, dealing with that, you know, often schism or are they bringing those groups together? >> Well, I think you remember that like in the early days, I used bring my deck along and I would talk about assembly line IT versus the robotics spectrum all of IT and I would sort of make that sort of analogy to sort of the car manufacturing process, and I think what machine learning is really going to do is take us to that next level past that right? So we had the assembly line where we have all the specialists, we had the robotics factory where we had people who know how to build a robots and software, and it's really sort of like, just churning out with a lot of people on the line, and I think the next level after that is, you know, completely fully automated applications driving themselves, you know, self-driving applications, and I think that's when things get really interesting, and maybe we start to remove the traditional operator out of the equation and it really becomes about empowering developers with tools that are comfortable and that leverage all the cloud era and stuff that we built. >> All right, so Randy, you're credited with the pets versus cattle analogy, what's the latest, you were talking about some of the previous slide decks, what's Randy Bias looking on down the road? >> I mean, the stuff just comes to me, man. I can't like predict, but the thing I've been talking about a lot lately is services of platform, I think we might've talked about that last time, which is just this notion that if we look at where Amazon's invested and what's interesting, it's certainly not at the infrastructure layer and it's really not at the PAS layer, it's that thick layer in between with like database as a service and NoSQL as a service, and messaging service, and DNS and so on, where you can kind of cherry pick those things as you're assembling your own PAS for your application, and I still think that's the area that is under-discussed, and the reason is is the people back into basically doing that, building kind of the service as a platform system, but they're not like going into it, kind of like eyes wide open. >> Yeah, so just following up on that last piece, one of the criticisms I have this week is when you talk about multi-cloud, most of the people talk about, oh well people are clawing things back to their data centers. Juniper plays across the board, strong partnership with Amazon, yet you're here, what are you hearing from customers, you know, what do you see as kind of the balance there and, you know, the public cloud's role in the world? >> I mean, they're still winning, right? I don't think there's any doubt, I haven't seen a decline back here talking about, but we are starting to enter into the era of, okay, this stuff is out there, and it's running, but I need to find my governance model, I need to understand who's using what, I need to understand what it's costing me, and that's the sign of the maturation process. And so I think that, you know, we saw in the early days of cloud, people jumping the gun, creating compliance services, and you know, SAS products that would basically measure how much you're spending and think that it's time for that stuff to come back in vogue again, because the tool needs to be there for people to manage these extended supply chain of IT vendors which include the public cloud. And I think that the idea that would claw them back as opposed to like just see that as holistic part of what we're trying to accomplish doesn't make any sense. >> Well learned. Well, Randy Bias, always a pleasure to catch up with you. >> John. >> John Troyer, I'm Stu Miniman, getting towards the end of two days of three days of live coverage. Thanks for staying with the CUBE. (bubbly electronic music)

>> Announcer: Live from Vancouver, Canada, its theCUBE! Covering OpenStack Summit North America 2018. Brought to you by Red Hat, the OpenStack foundation, and its ecosystem partners. >> Welcome back, I'm Stu Miniman, and you're watching theCUBE's live coverage of OpenStack Summit 2018, in Vancouver. My co-host John Troyer is here, happy to welcome back to the program, Mark Baker who's a Product Manager with Canonical. Mark, how's the show treating you so far? >> Show's been going very well. So, we've seen people coming to us on the show floor, coming to the sessions. We're seeing really interesting building, scalable production Clouds, and so and coupling that with all the container technologies and a lot of other complimentary technology by machine-learning. So, a lot of the discussion is, can we build Cloud? But also, much more about the workloads and the kind of integration with, parallel if you like, or adjoining technologies. >> Great, want to talk about the customers really, Mark. So as you said, you've been to a few of these shows, we've been to a few of these also and, the makeup of the attendees has changed a bit, one of the things I heard, it is 2X the number of Cloud architects, with their title, compared just to last year, little bit of a broadening into the scope, what do you hear from customers, what brings them here, what's exciting them, in this environment? >> So, I mean yes certainly Cloud architects, and at Canonical we regularly talk to Cloud architects, because architecture with the Cloud is something that evolves, it's not something that's pinned. As workloads evolve, and new technologies come along you need to be able to evolve that architecture, and therefore people that understand that are important. I think it's also noticeable, I'm sat here wearing my blazer, is there's noticeable seeing quite a few people round the show, wearing blazers. So, you go back a couple years ago, or even a year or so ago, it was very much a sort of developer centric type of event. We're seeing more business conversations now, and even discussing things such as money, and economics, which weren't necessarily conversations that we were going too heavily in a couple of years ago. >> There's still a bunch of the hoodies set here, lots of cool T-shirts and, yeah, ironic facial hair and the like, so, maybe from your standpoint at Canonical, talk a little bit about those constituencies of who to sell with. We've got the operators, you've got the developers, you've got the C suite, I'm sure the answer is yes, but who you find yourself maybe, help walk us through some of those roles that you're talking to, some of the biggest concerns they're having and how you're helping them. >> So in most enterprises that we go and talk to we're typically talking to, initially operations, because they know that they need to be able to ride services to, Cloud services, and container services, to their customers internally, or within the business, and they're looking at okay how can we operate this, how can we secure it, how can we scale it, in smart ways, they're looking for our help and assistance doing that. Very soon after that we'll need to go and talk to developers, or engage line of business developers, primarily because we need to, this represents change to them, moving into a Cloud or, moving their applications to containers represents change, and we want to get them onboarded into this environment and to start to begin that change as quickly as possible. The Cloud, to succeed, it needs to have many running workloads on it, and so engaging with the developers, to take advantage of the capabilities the platform can provide is really important. We'd love to be able to go and talk to at that sea level, and we are starting to have more of those conversations, but I think the type of infrastructure, the OpenStack and container technologies provides, it's the initial interest is very much coming from those operators, from the architects, and from the developers. >> Well lets talk about operators for a minute, I mean, once upon a time there was a tribe of people called sisbits, they were kind of surly, and they took care of things like Linux, right, and now, out of that Linux framework, there's a huge set of technologies, that have grown all based on Linux, on all that Canonical works with, and there's a new set of skills required. Can you talk a little bit about what the new operator needs to know, and how you can help train people and Canonical help train people that you're assistant men working with Linux, what different things do I need to care about now in the Cloud management world, Cloud operator world? >> Yeah sure so, you're right, it used to be relatively simple, and you would run a VM or you'd run an application on top of bare metal and, there'd be certain things you'd need to be able to tweak to scale it and up the performance, but, we're running an, as we say, more agile infrastructure, so whether it's Cloud or containers or combinations of both, there are very many different variables, and how an application's able to take advantage of the storage or the capabilities that a platform provides, there's many different nobs and dials that you can turn. We tend to be advising right now, people on bringing in services such as CICD, Continuous Integration Continuous Deployment, so that they can start to adopt some of these newer ways of working. Operators now need to, they need to be much more aware of okay, what the workload characteristics are, and how that might behave on a hyper vise, or how it might behave within a containerized environment. I just came out of a conversation with a customer for example, who was asking detailed questions about storage performance, right? They have applications that require certain levels of storage performance and different types of storage that we can bring to bare, in conjunction with an OpenStack, which is going to be the appropriate one, and how do they segment them and so, it's definitely become more complex, but I think, through collaboration events like this, we're actually getting much better at being able to provide them with the information and the choices they need to make. >> Mark, speak to us a little bit about the community. OpenStack started heavy users in the community, contributed the community, how do you see that dynamic playing out today? >> Well there's still lots of contribution coming into OpenStack, and that's good to see. We are starting to see, as OpenStack has matured, as the market place has matured, some of the focus no longer being purely on contributing code, but now sharing experiences around operations, and that's starting to move into this area of people use this phrase, "Infrastructure as code", to be able to access infrastructure programmatically. I think we're seeing collaboration now in the OpenStack community and adjacent communities around collaborating on the operations, especially when those operations themselves are encapsulated in code. So, very simple thing, sounds simple, not necessarily easy to do but, being able to upgrade, update and place, how you would sort of suspend the system whilst you perform some maintenance and evacuating the workloads and bring them back in and those kinds of very common tasks for Cloud operators. We saw, even just a few years ago, how operators would each have their own way of doing it, their own preferred methods, and this was generally not so efficient so, collaborating on those and sharing best practices is one of the really interesting things to see within this community today. >> John: Sure, sure, I mean you, I think the evolution goes, everybody then starts to write scripts, which you all write scripts in your own way, and eventually you have to come up with a framework. And you all have developed a couple different frameworks in terms of installation and upgrades and things like that. >> Absolutely, and one of the things that once the customer start to understand that we've developed a framework around operations, those operations are encapsulated within code, and it means that if we have a customer, dodgy telecom, for example one of our customers that is understandably very security conscious, 'cause they run the telco network, has best practices around the security of their Cloud, and we're able, when they start to make recommendations or updates to that, we're able to take those and share them with a broad audience, and get that sort of collaborative spirit around what's the best way to be able to do this. >> So, you mentioned security there, any other kind of key pinpoints, what are you hearing out in the market place, is GDPR something that a lot of your customers are beaten on you and, what's the Canonical decision there? >> Yeah, absolutely, so, GDPR has been a real catalyst for people to look at areas for security that they probably meant to get round to at some point but never had, so. >> Some people said it's the Y2K of this generation >> Yes, exactly, definitely a forcing function. And so one of the areas we've seen a lot of activity around and solely we've committed resources to it within the last couple of months has been around encryption of data at rest. So, obviously in the Cloud, you're going to have a lot of data that's there with the relevant workloads, and some of that regulations in GDPR regulation is about what happens if somebody removes a disk from the server, does that mean that they have access to the data? As we start looking at things such as Edge Cloud, so very many Clouds close to the customer or close to the edge, which don't necessarily have the same data center infrastructure around them, how do we secure the data there, right? So, encryption of data, but doing it in a way that doesn't require to manually typed passwords in to be able to access them all of the time, is not a simple problem and, we've spent quite a few resources, working out how do we address that, how can we do it in a way that's going to allow it to be dealt with economically, and scalably. >> There's been a lot of talk about open infrastructure in general here at the show, and OpenStack obviously is designed to manage infrastructure, but we've already talked about containers here, with you in this segment, there's a lot of container news, Kubernetes news, OpenDev Summit going on at the same time, so how do you as a Product Manager, you can't just be worried about one part of the stack, how do you and your team worry about that integration and that unified platform and bring together these interactions will all these different OpenSource projects? >> Oh yes, for sure, and that's, it certainly is one of the things Canonical has been cognoscente on and focusing on, or working on for quite a long time is a Linux distribution at it's heart is really the integration of very many different components, from a kernel, and libraries, and pilots and all the various other pieces that go with that. So, understanding how these components plug together, whether it's OpenStack, with containers, and open V switch for the networking, and set for storage for example, that's very much part of what we've been doing. We're learning with customers as we go, very much, that how they want to plug these things together with Kubernetes, Kubernetes running alongside OpenStack, Kubernetes running on top of OpenStack, OpenStack even running on Kubernetes, some of them are looking at, so understanding how they, people want to be able to plug technologies together, and we'd standardized very much on sort of reference architectures of combination of OpenStack plus Kubernetes as a really simple example, but then as part of our QA process, testing process, all this reference architectures that we build with hardware partners and other partners too, is ensuring that we're able to deliver that as a stand-alone product as required, but also as effectively solutions together, that are fully integrated, fully supportable and they're going to deliver the capability that the customer needs. >> First of all, the OpenStack on top of Kubernetes, really? Is that something you'd recommend to customers or? Or is it a specific use case for that? >> It's not something that we recommend today. So, there's been certainly a lot of discussion in the OpenStack community around the control plane, and what's the best way to deliver the control plane. Canonical made a very strategic or specific choice several years ago that actually, containerizing the services is the right way to do this, so we containerized basically all of the control plane services apart from Neutron Gateway which would be a little tricky to do that but, so we containerized all of those services, and it gives us flexibility when we want to perform updates and migrate services between different systems, for example. How do you manage those containerized services though? There's lots of diversity of opinion. Some people want to be able to do that with Kubernetes, and that's great, then we certainly track those efforts and work with those people, if they're using a (mumbles) or some of our technologies, but I think, it's still yet to be decided, what's the best way to be able to do that. >> So you must, you have an interest in Java as a Product Manager, you always want to productize in general, standardize as much as possible, in the needs communities you have the diversity of opinions, oh I'll take this piece, I'll get rid of the core, I'll do something over here, I'll flip it upside down, how do you balance that, giving customers choice, but making sure you can deliver solid offerings that you can support? >> And so, that's very much it. It's a choice and we can say, look, we can deliver a robust, high performing Cloud, with these reference architectures, we've learned that through experience with customers, and working with our partners. We understand that customers all believe they're special and they all have their own special requirements, often with good valid reason, so, but we'll always try and start from a base, and then say let's start to iterate through that, adding in additional capabilities or, maybe tweaking something for your particular use case if you do that, and see how it impacts the Cloud. Because, for us to be successful, us, the OpenStack community to be successful, we need to ensure that those Clouds can live and breathe and evolve over time, and if they're making too many or too heavy customization of that Cloud, then it can start to impact their ability to do that. So, it's, we'll offer that choice. >> Speaking a little bit on the line of standardized services, I'm really intrigued by managed OpenStack, from Canonical. Can you talk a little about what customers it's right for, and when it comes into the conversation and then where in the lifecycle, 'cause I guess then it can also eventually go as as the control container back over to the customers when they don't, when they're finished with managed. >> Absolutely, so we started providing what we call boot stack, as fully managed OpenStack service, primarily to address the skills gap within the OpenStack community. So, we saw a lot of companies interested in deploying OpenStack, a lot of enterprises looking for OpenStack, but they couldn't find the talent, or the people with the experience of deploying a managing OverStack. Just, there weren't the people around, right? Hiring was hard. So, and that was becoming a blocker for us to be able to deliver Clouds to those customers, so we started to offer a managed service, we had a lot of the reference architectures and best practices pretty well nailed down, but it was a facilitator for them to get up and running with the Cloud and there's a point where they, that they became comfortable operating it, managing themselves, hand control back. We've seen, that is a very popular model, and that period where they're having us manage it, can be six months or 12 months or 18 months, but the customers know that they have the reassurance that they can take it back, control and house, they can operate it themselves, and they can manage their own environment, they become self sufficient, but they're not doing that from day one. We're holding their hand, and taking them along that path. So, that's been a very popular offer. >> Mark Baker, really appreciate you giving us an update on really the broad spectrum of customer use cases and all the updates from Canonical. For John Troyer, I'm Stu Miniman. Back with more coverage here from the OpenStack Summit 2018, in Vancouver. Thanks for watching theCUBE. (electronic music)

>> Announcer: Live from Vancouver, Canada, it's theCUBE! Covering OpenStack Summit North America 2018. Brought to you by Red Hat, the OpenStack Foundation, and its ecosystem partners. >> Welcome back to theCUBE, helping to extract the signal from the noise. Here at OpenStack Summit 2018, I'm Stu Miniman, my co-host for the week is John Troyer. Happy to welcome to the program atmail, which is an email as a service company. We have Jay Sil who's the European Sales Director, and we have Jason Brown, we'll call him JB for the rest of the interview, is a Solutions Architect. Gentlemen, thanks so much for joining us. >> Thanks very much for having us here. >> Alright so Jay, email is a service, tell us a little bit about the company and the state of email, haven't Office 365 just taken everybody over? >> Jay: Well, so most people don't want to talk about email, but it's still essential. So atmail is a 20 year old company, we are probably one of the largest pure plaid, white label email providers in the world. We have about 170 million mailboxes out there in the wild. But we provide not to end-user businesses, we service the service provider and telco market. So a lot of our customers you would've heard of, we're more the brand behind the brand. So, we provide those email to their end-user subscribers, but it is very much the telco ISB, that is upfront that you would hear about. >> Yeah, excellent. There's been a discussion we've been having at this show a lot is, OpenStack itself is kind of something that gets in there, the telco and service providers, big place so, JB, tell us a little bit about your role and bring us into the involvement with OpenStack. >> JB: Sure, so I'm the Solutions Architect for atmail, I kind of help bridge the gap between the technical and the non technical, I help Jay out with explaining the technical details to the sales team and then bring back the non technical details of feedback that Jay gets and we get from our customers, into development and operations, so they can actually improve the product in a way that's fitting. And so, we started with OpenStack a few years ago, through a partnership with DreamHost, here in North America, to move from, we kind of had a traditional email, like a hosted email solution, or an on-premise email solution, but it wasn't a true Cloud solution, and so, took a big step back, looked at our architecture, what it actually looked like, what it needed, and it just turned out that OpenStack was the best direction for us to go to make that move. >> JB, can you clarify, when you say a true Cloud solution, what did you mean by that? What were kind of the requirements and what did that? >> So we had, for years, we would just take our on-premise solution, and we would run it in a data center that we had a rack in, we had 40 U's worth of servers, I was the guy at the time that was responsible if something went wrong. I got a call at three o'clock in the morning to drive to Spokane to go to our data center to fix something, replace a hard drive, or do something like that, and that just was, it didn't scale horziontically or vertically to be honest. That was just limited to what we could do with it, and so we really wanted something where we could save the cost by distributing a load as we needed it, and I think that's really the difference, is you can spin up instances for front end or spin up an instance for a back end, whatever you actually, whatever resource you actually need, you can spin that up as a service, in a Cloud infrastructure, whereas you can't really do that as easily or as cost effectively on bare metal. >> Jay so, I want to bring it back to the business. Your customers, what does OpenStack mean from them and the ultimate end-user, I don't think I've seen emails that say, "Sent to me via an email service powered by OpenStack". But, walk us through what that means for the business and your constituents. >> So there are both commercial and technical benefits. If I look at the commercial benefits first and foremost, what OpenStack allows us to do is to provide a solution, quickly and efficiently. The first thing that people want from email is they want a stable, robust service. It's a bit like turning a tap on at home, and it getting clean drinking water. You really don't give it a second thought, its only when that tap stops working and its not coming out properly, then you think about it. So first and foremost, our customers want a stable, mature, reliable service. They also want to make sure that it's secure. And that allows us, the OpenStack initiative that we've undertaken allows us to achieve that. The commercial other benefits that we obtain from that is being able to reuse our cost base, or controlling our cost base. As a result, that's passed on to our customers. So they can then, not only mitigate their risk, but they can control their costs as well. From a technical point of view, I mean, JB can touch upon some of the technical benefits, but one of the things that we found, because we are a small vendor in terms of the DevOps team that we have, what OpenStack allowed us to do was to gain from the knowledge that the community had, and really benefit and accelerate our solutions market. And when you talk to some of our DevOps guys, the first, and, well, foremost thing that they say is that we couldn't have achieved this without the help and support of the engineers and the OpenStack community. So the depth of knowledge out there really helped us accelerate those services. >> That's great, is the fact that it's OpenStack, seems like at this point, one of the themes that we've been talking about is OpenStack, ubiquitous, mature, a lot of talk here about containers and other things, but the Stack itself is well known and mature, that seems that that would also have a impact on, something that telco understands, right? It's a well known Stack, yeah. So JB, this is your first time, you said that this is your first time at a Summit. Kind of curious, before we dig into kind of maybe what your Stack looks like, OpenStack looks like, what did you think of the Summit, the level of kind of conversation here, the sessions and that sort of thing. >> So far it's been fantastic. I've had a complete, not a 180, but there's so much here that I'll be able to take back to our DevOps guys and our QA guys, we're looking at the zool stuff really heavily, the CICD stuff, just a huge benefit that'll streamline all of our development and testing and then pushing that to market will be huge. >> Anything specific, 'cause one of the things we've look, there's a number of CICD offerings in the market today, what specifically about zool, because you're using OpenStack that it makes sense to fit somewhere. >> Yeah I liked it, it fits with OpenStack really well, I like its level of maturity, and I like the gated looking at the future as opposed to looking at the past, or looking at the present, for your testing, specifically. >> Gotcha, that's interesting, yeah. Can you talk a little bit maybe about your so your Stack is a, so it sounds like, well yeah talk a little bit about the OpenStack, your OpenStack deployment in terms of there's a lot of components, are you using kind of the core components then? And anything else that interacts with the other theme here, right, is OpenStack has to talk to a lot of other systems. >> So we use a pretty, we use the OpenStack storage module and the networking module, and I don't know all of the little names to all of the little pieces, but we do use the storage and the networking. The networking was a really big help for us because we were actually able to offload some of the system load into the network layer moving into OpenStack, whereas before we would have, with an email system you have all of your actual email traffic, or your high map traffic, can create a significant load, by being able to move some of that load into the networking layer, we're able to provide a better customer experience because all of those edge services aren't as taxed, and so when the user goes to check their email, or send an email, they're not waiting because of a high level risk, and if you see this, especially if, when, something goes wrong in a system, 'cause they're systems, and things do happen, and so when that happens, the time to recover, is faster on our back end and the overall the way that's presented to our end-users is much better for us. >> John: Much better business benefits, yeah. >> Jay, have to think in the regions that you play, kind of the governance and compliance, something you need to worry about, also it's May 2018, so I have to ask you about GDPR, and how that fits into your business these days, so. >> Jay: Absolutely Stu. So, GDPR comes into effect this Friday, we've had a team dedicated on working on that, make sure that we are compliant, obviously our telco users, service providers, rely on us implicitly, to make sure that we are fully compliant, and I can assure you that we are. We have seen a number of high profile breaches of other offenders, it's not something that we want to have an experience of, so we have worked diligently, in order to make sure that we are fully compliant. >> Any commentary you want to share on the security these days too? As people always, governments asking for things, hackers, it's a complicated issue. >> It is, and it's interesting because email, I think, represents the largest surface area of attack, in any organization. You can get from a CEO, to anyone in the organization, via email. That's how powerful it is. And again, as we were talking off record earlier, it's not something you give an awful lot of thought to. Email is like turning on a tap at home and clean drinking water comes out, you don't give it a second thought. But when it stops working or there's an issue, than when it becomes a problem, and you could regress back into the dark ages, because you can't do business, you can't send that message, you can't communicate or connect to the audience that you want to. So, yes we have a lot of issueS around that that we need to make sure that we are fully on top of, our aim is to provide a stable, mature, reliable and secure service to our customers and their end-users. Security is something that we take seriously, as do a lot of other vendors, but it's something that is always constantly changing and evolving. By the time the latest attack comes out, and you've checked that you are covered, the next one has come out. And we've seen a lot of attacks over the last few months that come in waves. We had one acry last year, that really hit UK and Europe hard, as with other regions, and I'm sure there'll be more coming out soon. >> JB, containers, well, secure containers, one of the topics of conversation here, containers in general been a big topic, Kubernetes, how are you all looking at that application and orchestration layer? >> Containers with an email system are kind of tough. Security is a big reason for that, and its not that we can't use containers, but by the time you take a container and wrap all of the security around it, and everything that you need for something you would use with an email system, it almost negates the benefit of using the container to start with. >> John: Gotcha. >> So we're constantly looking at other ways that we can take advantage of that, and Koda I think today, just released their version one of their solution, which secures it down to the into the actual core of the system, and so that changes the game a little bit, on what might be possible now, not having to worry about some of the security issues that we are concerned with. >> Right, so, but even now, your Cloud portability strategy per se, is your app runs it's on an OpenStack context, with OpenStack configuration, you run I think at least two on two different instances of OpenStack, so that's part of your, you are multi-Cloud in that sense. >> We are, yes. >> That's great. >> And that actually made it really, the move into our EU data center was so much smoother, because of our experience with OpenStack on our initial deployment. We were just able to just launch it and go. >> Stu: Alright well, what I want to give you both just the final word is to, your takeaways here at the show so far, being first time attendees. >> So, from a commercial point of view, I mean the networking has been tremendous. I've had conversations with people over email or over phone, that I've actually met face to face here and made that connection, so for me as a sales person, those networking events et cetera, have been invaluable. What I also like about the show itself, and the community as a whole, is that there is this openness and there's this willing to share ideas which you don't always find in other arenas, it's much more of a closed, well I'm not going to tell you what I'm doing because its a trade secret or its going to give me advantage, whereas here it is very open, it is, we want to collaborate, we want to share, and that's been very refreshing from my point of view. >> The community is a big part of it for me. All of my work in developmental operations has been from the OpenSource community so, to come back and see that thriving and pushing this forward the way that it is, its just so reassuring. >> Well Jay and JB, we really appreciate you being open with sharing your story with a practitioner so, thank you and congratulations atmail for all that you've done here in the community. For John Troyer, I'm Stu Miniman, much more coverage here at the OpenStack Summit 2018 in Vancouver, thanks for watching theCUBE. (electronic music)

>> Announcer: Live from Vancouver, Canada. It's the CUBE. Coverage OpenStack Summit North American 2018. Brought to you by Red Hat, the OpenStack Foundation and its ecosystem partners. >> Stu: Welcome to SiliconANGLE Media's coverage of OpenStack Summit 2018. This is the CUBE. We're on day two of three days of live coverage. I'm Stu Miniman here with my co-host, John Troyer. Beautiful city here in Vancouver. There's been a bunch of parties last night, community things going on and to help us kind of set the stage for day two happy to welcome back to the program Lisa-Marie Namphy whose an OpenStack ambassador and also now a developer advocate with Portworx. Lisa, great to see you. >> Lisa: Thank you, guys, always great to be here. >> Stu: So, you're wearing a new logo ?????? Why don't you bring us up to speed on some of the many hats you're wearing. >> Lisa: Yeah, I joined the team at Portworx a few months back, super exciting, cognitive storage. If you want to run safe provocations like databases and containers, that's where Portworx comes in. So, it's a great space and as you know I've been in the cognitive space for a long time so I'm very happy to join the team of Portworx. >> Stu: I love, there's the open dev stuff going on here at the show. There was a keynote this morning, Forrest did a nice job of it. We'll actually have Immam on the CUBE tomorrow to talk some more about this, but you're at that nice intersection of how the developers fit into this, containers has been a hot discussion here for a few years, that whole cloud-native term that you've brought up, what is that mean to the OpenStack community, give us your level set as to what you see happening here in the OpenStack and beyond. >> Lisa: Yes, as you intimated I am still the tech ambassador for North America and have been for a long time, so I have seen this change coming, this progression, super-exciting at this conference how they've embraced those technologies that have been part of the story, but they really embraced at a very serious way as you saw from the keynotes yesterday. All the other technologies like works being done around containers, like Edge, ioT, all these wonderful stories that are getting showcased at this conference and customers and partners and communities coming together and working together, I think that's the most exciting part. >> John: Well, Lisa you run the meetup formally known as the Bay Area OpenStack meetup which just changed it name. Can you talk a little bit about that? >> Lisa: Yeah, well we just thought that, after looking at our schedule, and over the last two years I think that I've run 18 meetups on Kubernetes and Docker and Mesos and I just felt like networking and storage and all of the stuff we showcased I would keep. We didn't feel like the name was really reflective of the content that we were delivering and Cloud-native and Open-infrastructure is more of a broad term and that's the content that we've been delivering, and that's what the community has been wanting to talk about and wanting to come together over. So I changed the name. >> John: You guys have had great success, right? It's one of the biggest, or one of the biggest, meetup in this space. >> Lisa: It is, yeah, it's the world's largest ever tech issue group. We have over 6,000 members. >> John: People show up >> Lisa: They do. >> John: I've been to meetings. >> Lisa: A nice note to everybody, I didn't want anyone to panic, we still love OpenStack, and remember, OpenStack is a foundation of this, it was the first OpenStack meetup, but OpenStack is at the core of all of this technology, so it's built on OpenStack OpenStack's inside and so it's open infrastructure's a better, more encompassing title. >> Stu: I think that's great, we actually in some of the interviews we did yesterday, we had a COB provider from Australia and you go look around their website and it's not like they're saying, "Hey, OpenStack" all over the place, they're infrastructure and service for government and when you dig down underneath, what do you know, there's OpenStack there. Talk to a number of software companies that, when you dig into their IP, it's like "Oh, okay, we're using one of these projects from OpenStack." So, the premise I had had a few years ago is we know Opensource is a bunch of tools out there and it's not necessarily just like Linux permeated throughout the data center, OpenStack has that opportunity to that next generation of helping us to build everything from structure to service to all of these software products that are inside. >> Lisa: Absolutely and we saw during all those keynotes yesterday all the different projects when they did show what was being shown as the demo, all these projects coming together, maybe only two of them, that an OpenStack project, it's all of these communities coming together, working together, and it's kind of changed because everything's been focusing on business problems and this, I think, is the biggest shift that this shows. You know, these user communities not being so focused on the project that they're working on, but really focusing on use cases and trying to solve those problems, and now, I haven't said this to Lauren and Jonathan, I feel like when they pull the design from it out, I think that went a long way to taking away the project focus, because when you have a design summit and everyone runs off into their rooms to talk about cinder or nova or whatever it was they argue about the next release, that has all been removed and now its happening elsewhere and it really let the community come together and work together and bring all the technologies together. >> Stu: What do you, the conference in general, what's the vibe here? Obviously, we're in a beautiful place, everyone's really kind of stunned by the mountains everyone, not the first time though OpenStack Summit's been here in Vancouver, but what's the vibe, what's the feeling? >> Lisa: Yeah, it's so great to be back here. Congratulations on the trained whales that you've got for the free tram behind us. Vancouver, I mean, yeah Canada. It's just everyone's been so nice, so wonderful, it's so beautiful, wow, extremely happy to be back here. I think the Summit's been going great, you know. Non-dairy options at the coffee stations, I love that, too. They've thought of everything, the marketplace was booming last night, we had a little ambassador stand where people could come up and do a meet and greet and I was like pilled that there was so many people coming by for the whole hour. The energy has been wonderful and everybody feels involved. You know, this is a very communal feeling to this Summit. >> Stu: Great, to tell us about Portworx, give us the update there, how that fits into what's happening at the show. You've been lost in shows lately, you've got more coming up in the next month. >> Lisa: Absolutely, I mean, people just think okay it's an OpenStack summit, is it really going to be relevant? I have so many customers here, it's been fantastic to catch up with people and Portworx, it's a startup out of Spokane Valley, based in Los Altos and we have almost a hundred customers now and it's live in production, running Kubernetes in production and the problem with when you wanted to run those fateful applications, people think of containers as stateless traditionally, particularly Kubernetes, but what are you going to do with the data, right? The database is still super important so whether it's Postscript or MySequal or Kassberg or Santros, those fateful applications are really important and not the problem that Portworx solves. It's a cognitive storage company, but it's really beyond that, things you would expect from traditional VM, high availability, things like that, we can solve those problems if you want to run Postscript in a container. We worked really closely with Nasos, say resallas, the Kubernetes team with Docker. We'll be at DockerCon, the other, next week, and so we are actually doing the next meetup in the San Francisco Bay area. The first one we're going to bring all of these group together, we're doing it in conjunctions with our french and code press who run the production ready container, used to be container 101 meetup, so we're going to get together with them and with our Cloud-native open-infra user group. So, we're going to a meetup on June 6th, so I hope you guys come? >> John: Great, so I mean you said there's a lot of, going back to the conflict of business users, you know, folks who actually need to get stuff done, anything you're looking at in a conference in terms of the news, the clean release is out, so in terms of technologies, you're hearing about, talked about, buzz, the VTBU stuff, I don't know all what different, I know there's a lot of other storage news coming out this week, but anything that you guys are hearing in the air? >> Lisa: I mean, around again the adjacent technologies, CASA containers, a big focus here, and I hope that they're going to be a big focus, I hope I can finally run the first ever robotic containment meetup. We're going to have them do a hands-on lab at our OpenStack birthday party event on the "8th" I put that in quotes because it's a half-day hands-on lab training, it's sorry the 10th, July 10th, we want to focus on product containers, we want to focus on some of the new technology, Akrana, you heard me mention that yesterday. That's coming out, Edge, so Edge technology is huge, Vast was on stage again, right, talking about what they are doing, OpenDev as a subtrack of this constant or however they say that, it's super exciting. I think Boris Sunstach this morning, Boris is a sponsor Lawrence was a sponsor of that and I think the OpenDev community is really, it's bringing kind of of the developers and technology back into the fold and having this kind of of un-conference or sub-conference going on as a track, which is fantastic. I'm speaking tomorrow on the container track, container info-structure track, so super-excited about that it's also a track, but that's what I loved about this conference, about how they're really focusing on these kind of new and up-and-coming areas that are super hot. >> Stu: Lisa-Marie Namphy, really appreciate you helping us kick off day two coverage, so much these blendings of these communities helping the users put together the overall solution to get done what they need to get done. >> Lisa: Yeah, Bob Obasek of that foundation they've done a fantastic job, the energy of this summit has been fantastic. >> Stu: We've got a full lineup today, we've got practitioners, we've got the ecosystem, and for John Troyer I'm Stu Miniman. Thanks for watching the CUBE.

>> Announcer: Live, fro-- >> Announcer: Live from Vancouver, Canada it's theCUBE! Covering OpenStack Summit North America 2018. Brought to you by Red Hat, the OpenStack Foundation, and it's ecosystem partners. >> Hi and welcome to SiliconANGLE Media's production of theCUBE here at OpenStack Summit 2018 in Vancouver. I'm Stu Miniman with my cohost, John Troyer. We're here for three days of live wall-to-wall coverage at the OpenStack Foundation's show they have it twice a year John, pleasure to be with you again, you and I were together at the OpenStack show in Boston, a year ago, little bit further trip for me. But views like this, I'm not complaining. >> It's a great time to be in Vancouver, little bit overcast but the convention center's beautiful and the people seem pretty excited as well. >> Yeah so if you see behind us, the keynote let out. So John, we got to get into the first question of course for some reason the last month people are always Hey Stu where are you, what're you doing and when I walk through the various shows I'm doing when it comes to this one they're like, why are you going to the OpenStack show? You know, what's going on there, hasn't that been replaced by everything else? >> I got the same thing, there seems to be kind of a almost an antireligious thing here in the industry maybe more emotional perhaps at other projects. Although frankly look, we're going to take the temperature of the community, we're going to take the temperature of the projects, the customers, we got a lot of customers here, that's really the key here is that our people actually using this, being productive, functional, and is there enough of a vendor and a community ecosystem to make this go forward. >> Absolutely, so three years ago, when we were actually here in Vancouver, the container sessions were overflowing, people sitting in the aisles. You know containers, containers, containers, docker, docker, docker, you know, we went through a year or two of that. Then Kubernetes, really a wave that has taken over, this piece of the infrastructure stack, the KubeCon and CloudNativeCon shows, in general, I think have surpassed this size, but as we know in IT, nothing ever dies, everything is always additive, and a theme that I heard here that definitely resonated is, we have complexity, we need to deal with interoperability, everybody has a lot of things and that's the, choose your word, hybrid, multi-cloud world that you have, and that's really the state of opensource, it's not a thing, it's there's lots of things you take all the pieces you need and you figure out how to put 'em together, either buy them from a platform, you have some integrator that helps, so somebody that puts it all together, and that's where, you know, we live here, which is, by they way, I thought they might rename the show in the open, and they didn't, but there's a lot of pieces to discuss. >> Definitely an open infrastructure movement, we'll probably talk about that, look I loved the message this morning that the cloud is not consolidating, in fact it's getting more complicated, and so that was a practical message here, it's a little bit of a church of opensource as well, so the open message was very well received and, these are the people that are working on it, of course, but yeah, the fact that, like last year I thought in Boston, there was a lot of, almost confusion around containers, and where containers and Kubernetes fit in the whole ecosystem, I think, now in this year in 2018 it's a lot more clear and OpenStack as a project, or as a set of projects, which traditionally was, the hit on it was very insular and inward facing, has at least, is trying to become outward facing, and again that's something we'll be looking at this week, and how well will they integrate with other opensource projects. >> I mean John, you and I are both big supporters of the opensource movements, love the community at shows like this, but not exclusively, it's, you know, Amazon participating a little bit, using a lot of opensource, they take opensource and make it as a service, you were at Red Hat Summit last week, obviously huge discussion there about everything opensource, everything, so a lot going on there, let me just set for, first of all the foundation itself in this show, the thing that I liked, coming into it, one of the things we're going to poke at is, if I go up to the highest level, OpenStack is not the only thing here, they have a few tracks they have an Edge computer track, they have a container track, and there's a co-resident OpenDev Show happening a couple floors above us and, even from what the OpenStack Foundation manages, yes it OpenStack's the main piece of it, and all those underlying projects but, they had Katacontainers, which is, you know, high level project, and the new one is Zuul, talking about CI/CD, so there are things that, will work with OpenStack but not exclusively for OpenStack, might not even come from OpenStack, so those are things that we're seeing, you know, for example, I was at the Veeam show last week, and there was a software company N2WS that Veeam had bought, and that solution only worked on Amazon to start and, you know, I was at the Nutanix show the week before, and there's lots of things that start in the Amazon environment and then make their way to the on-premises world so, we know it's a complex world, you know, I agree with you, the cloud is not getting simpler, remember when cloud was: Swipe the credit card and it's super easy, the line I've used a lot of times is, it is actually more complicated to buy, quote, a server equivalent, in the public could, than it is if I go to the website and have something that's shipped to my data center. >> It's, yeah, it's kind of ironic that that's where we've ended up. You know, we'll see, with Zuul, it'll be very interesting, one of the hits again on OpenStack has been reinvention of the wheel, like, can you inter-operate with other projects rather than doing it your self, it sounds like there's some actually, some very interesting aspects to it, as a CI/CD system, and certainly it uses stuff like Ansible so it's, it's built using opensource components, but, other opensource components, but you know, what does this give us advantage for infrastructure people, and allowing infrastructure to go live in a CI/CD way, software on hardware, rather than, the ones that've been built from the dev side, the app side. I'm assuming there's good reasons, or they wouldn't've done it, but you know, we'll see, there's still a lot of projects inside the opensource umbrella. >> Yeah, and, you know, last year we talked about it, once again, we'll talk about it here, the ecosystem has shifted. There are some of the big traditional infrastructure companies, but what they're talking about has changed a lot, you know. Remember a few years ago, it was you know, HP, thousand people, billion dollar investment, you know, IBM has been part of OpenStack since the very beginning days, but it changes, even a company like Rackspace, who helped put together this environment, the press release that went was: oh, we took all the learnings that we did from OpenStack, and this is our new Kubernetes service that we have, something that I saw, actually Randy Bias, who I'll have on the show this week, was on, the first time we did this show five years ago, can't believe it's the sixth year we're doing the show, Randy is always an interesting conversation to poke some of the sacred cows, and, I'll use that analogy, of course, because he is the one that Pets vs Cattle analogy, and he said, you know, we're spending a lot of time talking about it's not, as you hear, some game, between OpenStack and Kubernetes, containers are great, isn't that wonderful. If we're talking about that so much, maybe we should just like, go do that stuff, and not worry about this, so it'll be fun to talk to him, the Open Dev Show is being, mainly, sponsored by Mirantis who, last time I was here in Vancouver was the OpenStack company, and now, like, I saw them a year ago, and they were, the Kubernetes company, and making those changes, so we'll have Boris on, and get to find out these companies, there's not a lot of ECs here, the press and analysts that are here, most of us have been here for a lot of time so, this ecosystem has changed a lot, but, while attendance is down a little bit, from what I've heard, from previous years, there's still some good energy, people are learning a lot. >> So Stu, I did want to point out, that something I noticed on the stage, that I didn't see, was a lot of infrastructure, right? OpenStack, clearly an infrastructure stack, I think we've teased that out over the past couple years, but I didn't see a lot of talk about storage subsystems, networking, management, like all the kind of, hard, infrastructure plumbing, that actually, everybody here does, as well as a few names, so that was interesting, but at the end of the day, I mean, you got to appeal to the whole crowd here. >> Yeah, well one of the things, we spent a number of years making that stuff work, back when it was, you know, we're talkin' about gettin' Cinder, and then all the storage companies lined up with their various, do we support it, is it fully integrated, and then even further, does it actually work really well? So, same stuff that went through, for about a decade, in virtualization, we went through this in OpenStack, we actually said a couple years ago, some of the basic infrastructure stuff has gotten boring, so we don't need to talk about it anymore. Ironic, it's actually the non-virtualized environments, that's the project that they have here, we have a lot of people who are talking bare metal, who are talking containers, so that has shifted, an interesting one in the keynote is that you had the top level sponsors getting up there, Intel bringing around a lot of their ecosystem partners, talking about Edge, talking about the telecommunications, Red Hat, giving a recap of what they did last week at their summit, they've got a nice cadence, the last couple of years, they've done Red Hat Summit, and OpenStack Summit, back-to-back so that they can get that flow of information through, and then Mark Shuttleworth, who we'll have on a little bit later today, he came out puchin', you know, he started with some motherhood in Apple Pi about how Ubuntu is everywhere but then it was like, and we're going to be so much cheaper, and we're so much easier than the VMwares and Red Hats of the world, and there was a little push back from the community, that maybe that wasn't the right platform to do it. >> Yeah, I think the room got kind of cold, I mean, that's kind of a church in there, right, and everyone is an opensource believer and, this kind of invisible hand of capitalism (laughs) reached in and wrote on the wall and, you know, having written and left. But at the end of the day, right, somebody's got to pay for babies new shoes. I think that it was also very interesting seeing, at Red Hat Summit, which I covered on theCUBE, Red Hat's argument was fairly philosophical, and from first principles. Containers are Linux, therefore Red Hat, and that was logically laid out. Mark's, actually I loved Mark's, most of his speech, which was very practical, this, you know, Ubuntu's going to make both OpenStack and containers simpler, faster, quicker, and cheaper, so it was clearly benefits, and then, for the folks that don't know, then he put up a couple a crazy Eddy slides like, limited time offer, if you're here at the show, here's a deal that we've put together for ya, so that was a little bit unusual for a keynote. >> Yeah, and there are a lot of users here, and some of them'll hear that and they'll say: yeah, you know, I've used Red Hat there but, you can save me money that's awesome, let me find out some more about it. Alright, so, we've got three days of coverage here John, and we get to cover this really kind of broad ecosystem that we have here. You talked about what we don't discuss anymore, like the major lease was Queens, and it used to be, that was where I would study up and be like oh okay, we've got Hudson, and then we got, it was the letters of the alphabet, what's the next one going to be and what are the major features it's reached a certain maturity level that we're not talking the release anymore, it's more like the discussions we have in cloud, which is sometimes, here's some of the major things, and oh yeah, it just kind of wraps itself in. Deployments still, probably aren't nearly as easy as we'd like, Shuttleworth said two guys in under two weeks, that's awesome, but there's solutions we can put, stand up much faster than that now, two weeks is way better than some of the historical things we've done, but it changes quite a bit. So, telecommunications still a hot topic, Edge is something, you know what I think back, it was like, oh, all those NFE conversations we've had here, it's not just the SDN changes that are happening, but this is the Edge discussion for the Telcos, and something people were getting their arms around, so. >> It's pretty interesting to think of the cloud out on telephone poles, and in branch offices, in data centers, in closets basically or under desks almost. >> No self-driving cars on the keynote stage though? >> No, nothing that flashy this year. >> No, definitely not too flashy so, the foundation itself, it's interesting, we've heard rumors that maybe the show will change name, the foundation will not change names. So I want to give you last things, what're you looking for this week, what were you hearing from the community leading up to the show that you want to validate or poke at? >> Well, I'm going to look at real deployments, I'd like to see how standard we are, if we are, if an OpenStack deployment is standardized enough that the pool of talent is growing, and that if I hire people from outside my company who work with OpenStack, I know that they can work with my OpenStack, I think that's key for the continuation of this ecosystem. I want to look at the general energy and how people are deploying it, whether it does become really invisible and boring, but still important. Or do you end up running OpenShift on bare metal, which I, as an infrastructure person, I just can't see that the app platform should have to worry about all this infrastructure stuff, 'cause it's complicated, and so, I'll just be looking for the healthy productions and production deployments and see how that goes. >> Yeah, and I love, one of the things that they started many years ago was they have a super-user category, where they give an award, and I'm excited, we have actually have the Ontario Institute for Cancer Research is one of our guests on today, they won the 2018 super-user group, it's always awesome when you see, not only it's like, okay, CERN's here, and they're doing some really cool things looking for the Higgs boson, and all those kind of things but, you know, companies that are using technology to help them attack the battle against cancer, so, you know, you can't beat things like that. We've got the person from the keynote, Melvin, who was up on stage talking about the open lab, you know, community, ecosystem, definitely something that resonates, I know, one of the reasons I pulled you into this show in the last year is you're got a strong background there. >> Super impressed by all the community activity, this still feels like a real community, lots of pictures of people, lots of real, exhortations from stage to like, we who have been here for years know each other, please come meet us, so that's a real sign of also, a healthy community dynamic. >> Alright, so John first of all, I want to say, Happy Victoria Day, 'cause we are here in Vancouver, and we've got a lot going on here, it's a beautiful venue, hope you all join us for all of the coverage here, and I have to give a big shout out to the companies that allowed this to happen, we are independent media, but we can't survive without the funding of our sponsors so, first of all the OpenStack Foundation, helps get us here, and gives us this lovely location overlooking outside, but if it wasn't for the likes of our headline sponsor Red Hat as well as Canonical, Kontron, and Nuage Networks, we would not be able to bring you this content so, be sure to checkout thecube.net for all the coverage, for John Troyer, I'm Stu Miniman, thanks so much for watching theCUBE. (bubbly music)

(soft rock music) >> Announcer: Live from Los Angeles, it's theCUBE. Covering Open Source Summit North America 2017. Brought to you by the Linux Foundation and Red Hat. >> Hello everyone, welcome to a special Cube coverage here in Los Angeles, California for The Linux Foundation's Open Source Summit in North America. I'm John Furrier, co-host of The Cube. This week I'll be co-hosting with Jeff Frick and Stu Miniman who will be here shortly. He's out getting data from the keynotes and scouring the community for information. Two days of coverage of line up here. Open source is changing the world. More than ever, open source is continuing to accelerate. Over 23 million developers now actively programming with open source. Where the world economy is now based on open source, relies on open source, and where open source and code is changing culture. Jeff, had a great keynote from the Linux Foundation open source community, and really this is an accumulation of many, many years of coverage for us in the developer community. Kind of sitting above all the different communities like Stack Overflow, all the different source foundational communities: Open Stack Summit, Cooper Netty's, KubeCon, now CNCF, a variety of other shows, and obviously industry shows. And this is now, we're seeing where open source is becoming so mainstream on a global scale, we're seeing something unprecedented in the history of the computer industry and that is the role of open source in society. And I think the number one message we're seeing is that the Linux software has been around for 25 plus years. Linus Torvalds was on stage today kind of like reminiscing. He's been Time Man of the Year, he's won the Nobel Prize in Computer Science, the Millennial Award I think it's called. Essentially the top award. 17th most important person in this decade. Linux is now a main force. People are relying on open source, and then look no further than the Equifax pact that has changed 150 plus million people in terms of their, potentially identity fraud out there. It's from open source software, so you're starting to see the reliance of open source, where a sustainable ecosystem is continuing to grow, but security is a concern, and which projects to join. There's so much action, I called it open bar and open source. There's so much goodness flowing in from Google, IBM, you name the companies out there. People are being paid to learn and write code at this point in history. This is a historic moment for the open source community. As society starts to be molded by the shape of code in the keynote they call it a Do-Acracy. For doers and builders who are changing democracy on a global scale. This is the big theme and obviously a slew of announcements on a project basis: Certification for Cooper Netty's, new people joining, the CNCF and a variety of different projects. But certainly from our standpoint and theCUBE, we covered a lot of the game of this past eight years. Certainly the Cloud and big data, and the software ecosystem. Software-defined Data Center to software eating the world, Data Science eating the world. This is only going to continue with things like Blockchain, virtual reality. And as fake news and bought networks in the cloud continuing to change the notion of what the source is, not just source code, source of information. More than ever, the role of communities will play a front and center role in all of this. >> Yeah I think that's as big of a deal as the software piece, John, is the role of communities that open source creates. And it's a different way of thinking about things. It's a different way of trying to get more innovation. It's acknowledging that the smartest people aren't necessarily in your four walls. So it's really an attitude, but I want to get your take 'cause there's a couple models of stewardship in the open source world. We're here at Open Source Summit in L.A. Linux Foundation event. Linux Foundation is taking on more and more of the stewardship of many of these projects, kind of bringing it under one roof. We see another model where the stewardship is kind of driven by one particular company, right, that's trying to build a commercial business around an open source stack, but there's a couple companies that have become almost the defacto steward for a new and evolving open source space. How do you see the pros and the cons against those two models. Ya know it's great is you got a great steward, it's maybe not so great is the steward is not so terrific and you get a conflict between the steward of the technology and the actual open source project. >> Well, Jeff, and this is the fundamental question on everyone's mind here, as we continue to see the communities grow. And also the scale out of communities as well as the number of overall lines of code. So a couple of key things, one is: We call it the ruling class, that's the elephant in the room here at the show is, we see it in politics, identity politics shaping our national level and certainly on a global scale. China blocking all block chain, ICOs, and all virtual currencies as of today. You're starting to see the intersection of geopolitics with code. Where the notion of a democracy, or democratization, or do-acracy, as one of the speakers has called it. You can think of code, lines of code, as a vote. You write a line of code, that's a vote into an ecosystem. And we're starting to see these notion of distributed labor, distributed control changing the face of capitalism. Ya know, it's really happening, and the value that corporations are creating in this new model is a real dynamic. And really what's happening is the change from a ruling class, even in the software world. The success of open source has always been based upon self-governance. Self-governance implies a group collective that manages and approves things. That group collective, some would argue, has not been inclusive over the years. Certainly the role of women in tech has been an issue. And so what you have developing is the potential for a ruling class of what shapes the future culture. Certainly there's a no-brainer with women in tech that there should be more women in tech because half the people in the world are women. They're users of software. Software is going to be relied on by all aspects of our world. Not just in Earth but also in Space. So, the notion of ruling class is changing and the inclusion is a huge deal. Onboarding new people. Building on individual successes, and building it together as a group relies on inclusion. It relies on inlcusion of people, and requires inclusion of how the self-governance goes forward. And again, this is a major concept in this world as it evolves because like I said, open source is relied on, people are leaning on it at a tier one level. Software that's powering the telescope in the North Pole, in the Antarctic to Space stations all use Linux. And this is, again, what we're seeing. Getting technology in the hands so people can use code to shape culture. That is ultimately a big thing, we're at a tipping point right now, were at an inflection point, whatever you want to call it. Open source is continuing to grow, and that culture-shaping notion of code equals culture, is really what it's all about, and the role of community is more important than ever. And inclusion is the number one factor in my opinion. >> The other interesting thing to get your take, John, is Android. So Linux has been around for a long time, everybody knows about Linux, and there was lots of flavors and it all kind of aggregated. Android is really growing as a significant factor, and I think it was announced here that Samsung has now joined the project. And there's a really interesting little gizmo now that you can take your Samsung phone, stick it in a docking station, and have it power a big giant screen and a keyboard. And so, ya know, as Android has developed as the power in the handheld devices, it's closer and closer, it's not surpassing what we have in these things. It's another big kind of shot in the arm towards the open source ecosystem that really wasn't as significant as it is today. >> Well I mean the Android Operating System is again, just an operating system in the minds of the tech world. Obviously consumers use it, device, huge market share iOS Android and even other operating systems. Who knows, maybe it'll be the year of Linux on the phone, at some point. But you're starting to see software powering devices. This is the internet of things phenomenon. This is where you start to see trends that build out of that notion, like Blockchain, like A.I. are going to start impacting lives. And that's one thing that Linus Torvalds was saying on stage was, the most rewarding thing in his career with all the accolades aside; the fact that he's had an impact on people's lives has been the number one thing that motivates him. That's what motivates most people. So I would say that the Android significance is one of pure numbers. More market share, more penetration for the user experience. And the user experience is a cultural issue. Back to culture equals code. And, inclusively powering everyone to get involved and be part of it, either as a user or a participant in the community or a coder, really is about deciding the future, and if people do not get involved and are not included, then the ruling class will decide what's best for the culture, and that is not the theme here today. The theme here in open source for the next level is letting the code and the technologists in an open collaborative self-governing way be in communities, be inclusive and shape the culture, letting the code shape the culture. And Android, again, is another straw in the camel's back that allows for more penetration and more influence. More relevance, and continued relevance of technology. Providers, coders, communities and certainly individuals. And again, collective intelligence is a group phenomenon. That is a community powered theme. That is what's going on here and again, this is to me, is very radical disruption to the global society. >> Get your take John, 'cause then you get kind of forking and things kind of move and groove, it's kind of like a river, finds another path, right. And you had the container and docker really drove a lot of activation on the container side. Google comes out strong with Cooper Netty's, another open source project that we just heard at the VMworld a week ago. Pivotal get on stage with Michael Dell and Pat Gelsinger talking about kind of a new derivation that they're kicking out that's not Cooper Netty's. I forget what it's called, a different, cube-something >> John: PKS. >> PKS. >> John: A little container service. >> Continues to evolve and kind of fork. So what's your take on kind of how these things continue to morph. >> Well that's a good point, I mean you're talking about vendors in industry. Industry is a term that they use here it's kind of a polite term for saying companies with a vol for capitalism. And capitalism, one of the factors involved in what's going on here: corporate value is not a bad thing. But capitalism driving the culture is not what it wants. Distributed labor, distributed control, changing the face and capitalism is about the role of open source. So there's a role for industry and corporations. The issue is that as vendors, in the old model, which is put stuff out there, control the standards bodies and influence the industry through their proprietary mechanisms. That's changed and they don't have the proprietary nature but they can try to use their muscle and money. That's not happening anymore, and I think forking, as you mentioned, the ability to take a piece of code and build on it, whether it's a framework or libraries out there. And writing custom code is what Jim Zemlin was talking about with us is the code sandwich. That 90 percent of the software out there is open source and only ten percent is highly differentiated. That is the programming model. So, to me I think forking is a wonderful democracy dynamic in open source. If you don't like it, you can fork it. And if it doesn't make it, then the Do-Acracy voted with their code. So, this a term you call voting with your code. We can use the term in marketing called people vote with their wallet, vote with their feet. In communities, in open source they vote with their code. So to me, forking if a good thing that provides great opportunity for innovation. The issue of vendors pushing stuff out there is what I call the calling the bullshit factor. Communities that are vibrant and sustainable they can call bullshit on this right away. So, companies can't operate on the old model, they have to ingratiate in, they have to make real contribution, and they have to be community citizens. Otherwise you're going to get called out for pushing their vendorware. And that is interesting, and I'm not saying that they are doing that but Pivotal is a great example. Ya know, Pivotal put out a pretty good service, makes Cooper Netty's manageable, Google Cloud engines tied directly to it. So any updates coming from the Google Cloud engine gets updated into Pivotal, that's the value to users. If it sucks, if it doesn't work well, people won't use it. So, voting with your code, voting with your feet, is what people will do. So there's now a new level of triangulation or a heat shield if you will from vendor dominance, throwing their muscle around and even Microsoft is here with Linux. It's a huge testament to the success of Linux, and that's really what it's all about. >> Yeah, Microsoft is here, Intel is here. A lot of big companies are here and a lot of, in the early days, people had issues with the big companies coming in. But, clearly they're a huge part of the ecosystem, they write big checks, they help fund nice events like this. So the last question for you John, before we get into it: Two days of wall to wall coverage, what are you looking for? What are some of the questions that you've got on top of your mind that we'd hope to get some answers over the next couple weeks, or couple days, excuse me. >> Well I saw a great quote up on stage, was called May The Source Be With You. And, it was kind of a Star Wars reference: May the force be with, may the source code be with you, if you will. I'm looking for things that changed people's lives, 'cause the theme in open source now is the reliance of code in all aspects of global life here on earth and in space now as we see it. That the quality of life for society depends on open source. And again, 90 percent of most great software is written in open source, ten percent is differentiated and unique. That's the model they call the code sandwich. It's easy to code, it's easier to get involved. There's more communities that are robust and vibrant. If it impacts the quality of life, so that's one thing. The second thing I'm looking for is, we're looking at some of these new future trends and I've been really thinking a lot about lately as you know in theCUBE, is the role of Blockchains and these really disrupted technologies. We've started to see the power of the user in communities where there's technologies empowering the individual at the same time creating a group dynamic where the groups can build. So, individual success can be part of something that contributes to a group that can build on top of it. That's an open source flywheel that works great. I'm looking for Blockchain, I'm looking for those new technologies that are going to be in that vein. And of course, the outcome is: Does it impact lives, does it make the quality of life better? >> Alright. Well you heard it there, we'll be here for two days of wall to wall coverage. We're at the Open Source Summit North America in L.A. It's pretty funny, right next to Staples Center. John, I don't think we've ever been right downtown L.A. You're watching theCUBE, we'll be back with our next guest after this short break, thanks for watching. (light electronic music)

>> Announcer: It's The Cube covering OpenStack Summit 2017 brought to you by the OpenStack Foundation, Red Hat, an additional ecosystem of support. >> Welcome back, I'm Stu Miniman joined by my cohost John Troyer. Happy to welcome back to the program the two Keynote emcees for the first two days, Jonathan Bryce who's the executive director and Mark Collier who's the COO of OpenStack Foundation. Both of you, thanks so much for joining us. >> Jonathan: Yeah, thanks for having us back. >> It's great to be on The Cube. >> Thank you for the foundation. Without your guys' support, we couldn't do this. It's our fifth year doing the show. I remember the first year, John Furrier went. They were like, "Hey, OpenStack has arrived. "The Cube's there!" And now, it's part of our regular rotation. I know our community loves it. Community, opensource, big part of the show. I wish we had two hours to tease out all the pieces, but Mark, I got to start with you. You just did a live Q&A with Edward Snowden. Somebody joked, they said the quality and the sound was too good. He was sitting in the backroom somewhere. Can you just tell us, how did this come about and how do you make that work? >> Yeah. I mean, pinch me. Is this real life? I keep asking myself 'cause it seems kind of surreal. Just briefly, I got a lot of people that ask, "How did we get connected with him?" It's kind of a funny story, but basically, several years ago when the whole story came out about somebody from the government, from NSA had leaked these documents, but nobody knew who it was. I was on vacation, it was in the summer. I forget what year, I was on vacation with family. We were in the lobby of this hotel where we were on vacation and I've been following the story with some interest. All of a sudden, I see on the TV screen in the lobby of the hotel, "Breaking news, we're about to reveal "the name of the leaker." I look up and I'm watching it and it says, "Here it is. It's Edward Snowden." The first thing I did is I pull up my phone. I immediately look and see if edwardsnowden.com was available, so I registered it thinking, "Well, this might come in handy." Some person just became the most famous person in the world, possibly. It was available, so I'm like, I'm furiously typing on my phone trying to register the domain. I register the domain edwardsnowden.com. No idea what I would actually do with it, just thinking, "If it's there, "this name is about to become really famous," so I registered it. Didn't do much with it, I just put some Twitter feeds on there, just thought, "We'll see what comes of this." A little while later as things developed, he ended up in Russia. I was contacted by some of his team that said, "We're putting together a legal defense fund. "It'd be great if we could host it at edwardsnowden.com. "Could we buy the domain from you?" I was like, "You can have it, I'll donate it. "I just grabbed it 'cause I figured "this might come in handy someday, "just was an impulse." They said, "Great, thank you. "Edward thanks you, we're going to really use "this domain for his legal defense fund webpage," and all that stuff. Overtime, I occasionally would ping them and say, "Look, the domain's free. You've got it. "I want you to have it, it's not my name. "I don't have any need, I don't have any right to this. "You guys use it, but it would be great "if he could come on the Summit thing that we do." This was three or four years ago. They were like, "Oh yeah, he would love to do it "to thank you for donating the domain," but each time we talked, it was always like, the schedule didn't lineup. I've been literally asking him for six or seven Summits. This was the first time the schedules lined up. I didn't tell anybody 'cause I thought, this is never going to happen, this is a pipe dream. I don't want to promise anything. It was only just a few weeks ago that we found out the schedule's lined up, it's on. Got connected from there. He's obviously an opensource-person, has a lot of passion behind that. We thought this is pretty interesting for our audience, so it worked out. >> All right, so Jonathan. Let's reset for a second here (Jonathan laughs) and step back. One of the things we'd love to see is the foundation is self-aware. There's always that balance when you get into, you don't want to read the press or things like that because they don't understand what we're doing or where we're going or things like that. In your opening Keynote and throughout the show, we called it, it's a little bit of a reset. If you think about where people thought OpenStack was and where it was going three years ago, it was like, the Amazon this or the cheaper VMware or how that is, where it is, where it's going, who's leading, who's involved, winning-and-losing type stuff, you guys did a good job of laying that out, so congrats on that. Take us in a little bit, and what message did you guys want to get out this week? >> Yeah, I think that you're right, we are very self-aware. I think that some of that comes from our role. At the foundation, we are not selling a product. We don't have anything to sell off the back of a truck, so to speak. What we actually really care about is moving the state of the community and the technology we produce forward. The thing that's great about that is we can look at the portfolio of technologies that we have. We can look at the things that are in the market and if we see a shift there, it's not like we have a $500 million dollar line of business that, "Uh-oh, we need to keep milking this cash cow "and turn a blind eye to these changes over here." I think over the last couple of years, I talked about a shift in what private clouds can do now and how they're built and operated. We seen that and we've sort of been teasing that out a little bit at previous Summits whether it's demos with Kubernetes or different integrations with Cloud Foundry and other things like that. What we decided this time is coming out of last year, there was a lot of news. What we saw really picking up is there would be these rumors or misperceptions that somebody would put out there, you know? Not based on fact, not based on reality. We were like, "You know what? "We can't just try to subtly hint at what's going on. "Let's just go out there and actually address "the state of things," and I think what you mentioned is actually what's at the root of a lot of these misconceptions as people look at opensource now. Because so much technology gets developed that way, they look at it and they expect it to be like the old world of IT where you need to have Microsoft versus Linux, and you need to have Oracle versus MySQL. Actually, what we see is just the cloud overall is growing so quickly. Public cloud, everybody believes that's growing. What we see is, private clouds are growing. We see that servers, there are more servers this year than there were last year. There are more virtual machines this year than there were last year. Far more containers this year than last year. All of these technologies are growing, so it's not a zero-sum game where in order for OpenStack to succeed, AWS has to lose. I think that we feel that way and we see that, but we realize that this is... We need to just go at it directly. >> Mark, I've heard good feedback from people when, you know, core, where it is, how it's matured. People like the component piece. They'd be able to take some digital pieces which, my understanding, they could do that before, it's becoming highlighted a bit. We talked about some of the opensource days and Cloud Foundry, Kubernetes. The piece where we've heard some people poking holes in is what big tent we discussed last year. Big tent, we poked a hole, is it dead? How do we reposition that? >> Yeah, that's a great question. I think first of all, one of the things that this just this strange stroke of luck that maybe turned out to be bad luck was, one of the few times when a handful of developers went off and organized something, gave it a random name and the name really stuck. It actually was almost too good of a name. You heard Big Tent and everyone's just rolling off the tongue all the time, "Big Tent, Big Tent, Big Tent," so everyone had to have an opinion about it and was like, "This is a huge change." It really wasn't meant to be a huge change. It wasn't even meant to be broadcast that widely to everyone who's just observing OpenStack. That's just kind of what happens, people talk about it. I do think that we are entering a point now when we're thinking about composable, open infrastructure, yes, you need to have different components. You need to be able to pick them, but we're also getting more serious about what things need to exist in OpenStack. I talked about that a little bit this morning. Not every single thing that we've launched needs to continue to be an OpenStack project. Whether you call it the Big Tent or not, or if you give it different names, the reality is we need to adopt and integrate technologies from other communities. Any opensource community out there is potentially developing something really powerful. >> Jonathan: Did you mention the FCB thing this morning in your, I can't remember if-- >> Yeah I mentioned it briefly. A perfect example of this is a lot of OpenStack services have said, "You know, we need to distributed lock management function "in order to evolve as a service. "Where should we go build it? "How're we going to write it?" Then, this culture of, "Well, hold on. "There are a lot of them out there, they're proven. "What about Etcd?" So the forum, which is the first time we've really had a dedicated space at the Summit for both developers and operators to be in the same room, not just next door to each other. They had a discussion yesterday on this and they said, "Yes, we're going to go forward with Etcd." That's an opensource project, very proven, it solves this particular function, it's not developed inside of OpenStack, but who cares? It's opensource. We can work, we can be friends with anybody who builds great opensource software. Let's not reinvent the wheels. I think that does represent a bit of a shift in the philosophy and culture at OpenStack of not trying to just build every single thing from scratch 'cause that's not the best thing for our users or the market. >> I think the ecosystem message and the landscape message came through really clearly. This is my first OpenStack Summit. I was very curious about what is the shape of OpenStack? Where does it fit in? Talking about the upper layers and Kubernetes and the app layers, and now talking about the overall landscape, right. Why rewrite that something like Etcd write. The whole ecosystem has grown up around OpenStack. During the 70's, the whole foundation has been working on it, all the members. One thing that impressed me, we are post-hype cycle. There are real customers here. There are people building their first clouds right now on OpenStack. Could you talk a little bit about just the community in general, the composition of it and the actual real use cases that we're seeing that happen. >> We had some new companies that spoke here for the first time, GE was one. The U.S. Army Cyber School is another one. We had some companies that came back as well. I think that you hit on a key point which is the maturity of the software. A company like GE, especially in their healthcare division, this is a highly regulated company. It's probably the most regulated company out there when you consider the things they do with aviation, nuclear power, healthcare, finance and all these things. They don't take those decisions lightly at all. I think that is an indicator of that maturity. What we see in the makeup of the community is a broader set of industries than ever before. We had strong representation among IT companies early on and continued with that, but now we have industrial companies. We have manufacturing companies like Volkswagen, BMW, you know, a number of car manufacturers, and defense companies. I think that kind of plays into that. I think the other thing that we've seen... When we talk about the OpenStack community and the platform overall, we think of it as an ecosystem that has three main parts. There's the users, which, that's why we exist. We create software for it to be used. There are the developers who are doing that, and then there's the ecosystem of companies who create commercial products and services. I think that's actually just as important. Right now, at the phase that we're at is how that is also reaching maturity. In the earlier days of OpenStack, I think that we had a lot of startups and we had a lot of activity, but the market didn't know how to consume it. It didn't understand what it was. I think that actually scared off some companies and it made a little bit of it more confusing, but as you get a few years into that, some of those companies succeed. Some of them don't succeed, but what you arrive at is a clear understanding of what the market wants, how the products should shape up. You get companies that stop trying to build it all themselves, kind of along with the not-invented-here, and they partner with people who know how to do opensource or they come up with new delivery models. I think that, actually, just as important is the maturing that we've seen in the commercial ecosystem because that leads to sustainable business models for these companies like Red Hat and Rackspace and others that then drive the development, but it also leads to clear adoption choices for users. >> One of the things that I think came out of last year at the Austin Summit was just where OpenStack fits in in this hybrid world. I think about GE, Rackspace, Red Hat, all of those companies clearly span both sides of it. Back to that winning-and-losing discussion we had at the beginning, it was always public cloud versus the private and the infrastructure piece. We know it's a multi-cloud, hybrid cloud world. How do you see that fitting in the conversations? The other piece on that, I see a large number, it was a 74% of deployment according to your latest survey, are not U.S. which is the inverse of we see such. North America's where we have a lot of public cloud adoption so does that fit in? What dynamics may be mixed up with you, Mark? >> A couple things, I would say that what we're finding is a few years ago, it was like, are we going to do cloud? Okay, now it's yes. Then it was, which app it's going to be? It's going to be as many as we can get. Then it was, are we going to do public or private? Well, we picked one. Now it's, okay, yes to everything. It's going to be cloud, we're going to put as many apps as we can. We're going to do public and private, so what happens next? Now, it's a question of where. Where do you place each workload? Some of them belong in the public cloud, some of them don't. Economics plays a big factor, performance, compliance, all the things that he said. The three C's, capabilities. I think that's the next discussion point that's happening inside of these boardrooms with CTOs and IT leaders at the major companies. How do we get a sophisticated strategy for where to place the workload? In terms of the geographic dynamic, I think one of the things Jonathan hit on yesterday is that it's just the nature of opensource that you never know where it's going to go. You just have no clue. Really, any new technology development, the market's going to go somewhere you could've never predicted like, the crystal ball is dead. It's really roadmaps or almost obsolete. It's like, you need to create a structure for how you respond and adopt to change 'cause you know it's coming. What's happened with OpenStack 'cause it's been used in all these new and different ways, and part of that's geographic. It's used to power cell phone networks in all these different countries. It's being used to fit within regulatory requirements in certain countries in data locality, both for performance and other reasons. I think that's why you see it, it's a big world out there. More than 74% of the world doesn't live in the United States, so I think we're closer to the real percentage out there. >> I want to jump in with one thing that you said that I might disagree with slightly. >> Mark: Okay, let's have a debate. On the right... >> Well, you said that these are the conversations that CTOs and CIOs are having is the strategy about how to do it. I think it's a conversation they should be having... >> Mark: Okay, fair point. >> But I think that what we see is, we see a lot of companies-- >> After they hear this, maybe they'll start talking about the right thing. >> I think that we see that, but we're kind of on the front edge of cloud adoption >> That's a good point. >> in the OpenStack community. >> Mark: I concede your point, sir. >> And I think that one of the issues that we see still is that people are thinking about it too simplistically, almost. As Larry Ellison famously said, "The IT industry is the most "fashion-driven industry out there." I think that right now, there are a lot of companies that they still think that there's some shiny object that's going to fix it all for them. Right now, it might be public cloud or containers. They've heard this word and they think that's... Never happened. Never happened in the history of IT ever before. There has never been at technology that came along and fixed the stuff before it. They all get edited. So, yes. We were talking with a CEO just this week, and it was real interesting to hear his perspective because he said that he actually thinks that the pendulum is going to shift back towards private cloud for people who run any significant amount of software. He goes, "I know that is not a popular viewpoint right now, "and if I said that to most other "technology C-level execs, "they would probably disagree with me and go, "No, cloud first, containers," but I think that just the fundamentals behind it, over the next few years, I don't know if it will shift all the way back. It may, who knows? But that's definitely something that I think is going to change from where the current fab might be. >> We'll have to have you back later to talk about how public is now moving to edge. Edge, of course, lives. >> Yeah. Oh, yes. >> Edge is the new data center, is what they have. I do have one final question before we let you go. That whole new shiny stuff? The last couple years, I'd been hearing, everybody's like, "Containers are going to subsume and take over. "DockerCon will be the new thing. "Oh wait, Kubernetes is just "going to dominate and take it over," and we have CubeCon and the CNCF. There's lots of Linux Foundation shows that do partnerships with what you do in Cloud Foundry Summit and on all these other pieces. What do you see as the future for the OpenStack Summit? Does it get pulled? This is being pulled into pieces, but for the show itself, for the foundation, and how it fits with that whole broad ecosystem of opensource. >> Well, the OpenStack Summit has always had some specific purposes. Again, this gets back to the fact that we are an opensource community and a foundation built to support that opensource community. The primary purposes of the OpenStack Summit are basically to strengthen those three pillars that I talked about earlier, especially on the software angle. Mark mentioned that this time around, we are doing what we call the forum. We used to have the Design Summit here, and we actually split that into two parts: one that's very technical and it's really gets down into implementation details. That's split out into a separate event. It happened in February, it's going to happen in September. What we did here is we set up time where developers and operators can get together and talk about strategic issues. Instead of talking about, "How do we fix this issue on line X of file Y?" they're talking about, "What should we use for distributed storage "and lock management? "Should we do Etcd? Should we do Zoo?" They're having more strategic conversation. That is a very critical piece for our community and for the people who run on it. We do a lot of education here. I think that what we've seen is that the OpenStack Summit is becoming more focused around users and the strategic needs of them as we build out the technology versus what it used to be. It originally started as a hacking event for 75 software developers. That's where I think it's going. Just to address the other point, all of the other opensource projects, a lot of them are here and we go to their events because, again, like we've been saying, it's not a zero-sum game. What we care about is that there are open alternatives and that they work well together. One of the things that I think we've seen and we've seen it proven over and over again with OpenStack is that getting communities together in person, those high-bandwidth interactions are actually really critical to getting work done and making things happen. I think they're all valuable and we're going to continue to participate in all of them. >> Yeah, well, Jonathan Bryce, Mark Collier. Really appreciate you joining us. I'm sure we'll see you at many of those other shows that The Cube will be covering throughout the years. Stay tuned with us, we've got lots more covered here at OpenStack Summit 2017 in Boston. Thanks for watching The Cube. (minimal electronic music)