>> Announcer: Live, from Vancouver, Canada, it's theCUBE, covering OpenStack Summit North America 2018. Brought to you by Red Hat, the OpenStack Foundation, and its ecosystem partners. >> Welcome to theCUBE's coverage of OpenStack Summit 2018 here in Vancouver. I'm Stu Miniman with my cohost, John Troyer. And happy to welcome back to the program, fresh off the keynote stage, Mark Collier, who's the chief operating officer of the OpenStack Foundation. >> Thank you. Thanks for having me back. >> Thank you for having us back and thank you again for doing the show in Vancouver, so-- >> Oh man, such an amazing place. Like this convention center, I don't think it's fair to call it a convention center because it's like a work of art, you know? >> And it's my second time here for this show, and I think kudos to your team because you have good enough content that people aren't just wandering around, taking pictures of the mountains. My wife is off seizing the whale watching right now, but everybody else here, they're engaged. And that's what you want in the community. >> Yeah, definitely. I guess you have to make sure you don't lose their attention to the whales and the sea planes, but so far everyone seems to be gettin' down to business. >> You know, I think it would be fair to say that there's some transitions going on in the marketplace in general, and at this show I notice when I got the invitation, it's like the OpenStack slash open infrastructure summit. Got a big track on edge computing, got another one on containers, been talking about containers for a few years at this show, which really interesting to talk about. And I mean, the edge stuff, we were talking about it as NFV and the telcos and all that stuff in the past. What is the OpenStack Summit these days, Mark? >> Yeah, I mean I think that it's evolving to reflect what people are doing with open source when it comes to infrastructure. And so we call it open infrastructure, but basically it's just a world of possibilities have been opened up by, of course, OpenStack, but also many, many other components, some of which came before like Linux and things like that, and some of which started after, like Kubernetes, and there's many other examples, TensorFlow for AI machine learning. So there's kind of this like embarrassment of riches these days if yo want to automate your infrastructure in a cloud-like fashion. You can do so many more things with it, and OpenStack solves a very specific, very important layer which is that kind of traditional infrastructure as a service layer, compute storage and networking. But once you automate that, it's proven, it's reliable, you could run millions of cores with it like some of our users are doing. You want to do more and that means layering other things on top or sort of connecting them in different ways. So just trying to help users get something more out of the technology is really what we're about and OpenStack becomes like an enabler rather than kind of like the whole conversation. Yeah, one of the things I always say in this industry, sometimes we just don't have the right expectations going into these environments. You know, when I think back 15 years ago as to what we thought Linux was going to do. Oh it's going to crush Microsoft. It's like, well, Microsoft is still doing quite well and Linux has done phenomenal. We wouldn't have companies like, Google if it wasn't for the likes of Linux. In an open source you've got a lot of tools out there. So while there are the CERNs and Walmarts of the world that take a full OpenStack distribution and put out tons of cores, I've run into software companies where when I dig into their IP, oh what do ya know, there's a project from OpenStack in there that enables what they're doing. So I've seen at a lot of shows they're like, there's companies that are like, yes, I want it, and then there's like, oh no, there's this piece of it I want, there's that piece what I want. And that's kind of the wonder of OpenStack that I can do all of those things. >> Yeah exactly. I think we've talked before about sort of calling it composable open infrastructure, and making, OpenStack's always been architecturally designed from, in terms of the goals around it, to be pluggable so from the beginning you could plug multiple hypervisors kind of underneath and you could plug different backends for storage and networking, so that sort of concept of being something, integration engine that plugs things in is part of the OpenStack kind of philosophy, but now you see that the OpenStack services themselves are sort of, you can think of them as microservices, and like if you just need block storage you can use sender. And that may make sense for some specific environments, and are you running OpenStack? Well, you are, but it gets a little bit fuzzy in terms of are you running all of it or part of it? And the reality is the things are not as simple as a binary yes or no. It's just that the options are much greater now. >> Well Mark, that has been some of the discussion in the community over the last few years, the core versus the big tent, and now of course with all this interoperability, conversations with both OpenStack participating in other communities and other communities here today, this week. I mean, what's the current state of that conversation about what is OpenStack and how does it interrelate? I think you kind of touched on it with this composable idea. >> Yeah, I mean I think that basically it's kind of like OpenStack is as OpenStack does, you know? So what are people doing with it and that tells you kind of what it is and what people are doing with it. There are a lot of different patterns. There's no like one specific deployment pattern that everyone uses, but probably by and large, by far the most common pattern is OpenStack plus Kubernetes. And so when you talk about the interop piece, this is a really good example where OpenStack has evolved to become a better, kind of better citizen, I guess, of open infrastructure by having more reliable APIs, kind of being a target that tools that build on top can rely on and not sort of have to worry about the snowflakes of different clouds and there's still more work to be done in that area, but we talked about OpenLab, which is an initiative, this morning, that puts together OpenStack, Kubernetes, and other pieces like Terraform and things like that, and does constant end-to-end testing on it, and that's really how you make sure that you know kind of what combinations work well together, and sometimes you just find bugs, and it turns out a couple of changes need to be made upstream in Kubernetes or in OpenStack or in gophercloud or in Terraform, and just if you don't know, then the user kind of with the some assembly required model, finds out and they're like, I don't know, it doesn't work, it's broken. Well, is it OpenStack's fault or Kubernetes's fault, and they don't, they just want it to work. >> So you're saying >> Identified upstream we can fix it. >> You're saying OpenStack has become more of a stable layer of the (mumbles). >> Yes exactly, yes. It has become a much more stable layer. >> Which means there wasn't a whole lot of flashy storage network and compute up on stage actually. >> A lot of the talk-- >> Yeah, it's a really good point. I think it's just really proven in that way, and you know, one of the things that was highlighted was like the virtual GPUs, right? So, if OpenStack is designed to be pluggable, what do people want to have as an option now in terms of compute storage and networking, on the compute side is they want GPUs, because that gives an AI machine learning much faster, if they're bit coin miners, like I'm sure you all are in your basement, they're going to want GPUs. And what was really interesting is that the PTL, like the technical leader of the Nova Project, got up and talked about virtual GPUs. I was back in the green room and like three of the other keynote speakers were like, oh man, we are so excited about this VGPU support. Like, our customers are asking for it, the guy, Mohammad from Vexos, is the CEO of Vexos, he said, our customers are demanding this queens release, which is the latest OpenStack, and we were kind of surprised, they just really want this queens release. So we asked them why and they're like well they want VGPU. So that's kind of an example of an evolution in OpenStack itself, but it's an extension, enabler for things like GPUs, and that's kind of an exciting area as well. >> You know, it's interesting because in previous years it was the major release was one of the main things we talked about. Queens, as you mentioned, other than the VGPUs and that little discussions, spent a lot more time outside, talked to a lot of the users. You talked about the new tracks that were there. And something I heard a lot this year that I hadn't heard for a few years was, get involved, we're looking to build. And I was trying to think of a sports analogy, and maybe it was like, okay, we're actually building more of a league here and we're looking to recruit as opposed to or is it rebuilding what exactly OpenStack 2.0 is in the future? >> Yeah, that's a really interesting point. You're absolutely right, and I can imagine or can remember sort of talking to some of the speakers as they were working on their content, and I don't think I totally picked up that that was a big trend, but you're absolutely right, that was a major call to action from so many different people. I think it's because when we think about what we are as a community, I talked about how we're a community of people who build and operate open infrastructure, and it's really about solving problems, and if you're as open to community collaboration and you want to solve problems, you can't be afraid to stand up and say we have problems. And sometimes maybe that feels awkward. It's like the tech 101 is get up and say you solved all the problems and you should buy it today. It's online or downloaded or whatever. And I think we just realized that the magic of our community is solving problems. There's always going to be more problems to solve, now you're putting more pieces together, which means the pieces themselves have to evolve and the testing and integration has to evolve. Like it's just a new set of challenges and sort of saying, here's what we're trying to solve, it's not done, help us, actually is more, I think, true to kind of what the community is all about. >> I'm wondering, do we know how many people are at the show this year? >> I don't have the exact count. I think it's around 2600, something like that. >> Yeah, so fair to say it might be a little bit less than last year's North America show? >> Yeah, it is a little bit less. >> And what are you hearing from the user? What are the main things they come for? That you got the new tracks, you've got the open dev conference co-located. What kind of key themes can you get from the users? >> Yeah, I mean, I think one of the things that we found is that we have twice as many cloud architects this year than a year ago. So I think there's always this period of time where conference attendance is driven by curiosity. Like, I've heard about this thing, what is it, or it's the cool factor, hype curves and all that stuff, I want to learn about it. At this point people know what OpenStack is. We've got tons of ways you can learn about it. There's local meetups, there's OpenStack Days all over the world, there's content, videos online. It's just not like a mystery anymore. Like the mystery draws in kind of the people that are just poking around to learn. Now we're at that point of, okay I know what it is, I know what it's for, I want to architect a solution around it, so seeing twice as many cloud architects I think is an interesting data point to think about how we're shifting more towards, people are not asking if it's proven, they're like it's been proven for whatever, two, three years, however, the perception is, but the technology is just very, very solid. It's running infrastructure all over the world, the largest banks and so on and so, I think that's kind of how things are shifting to what else can we do and put on top of it, now that it's a solid foundation. >> I wonder, sometimes there's that buzz as to what's going on out there. There was a certain large analyst firm that wrote a report a couple months ago that wasn't all that favorable about OpenStack. There's others that watching on Twitter during the keynote, and they're like, they're spending all their time talking about containers, why isn't this just part of the Cloud Native Con, KubCon show? What's the foundation's feedback on, what are you hearing kind of, what's your core deliverables? And why this show should continue in the future? >> Sure, I mean I think that what we're hearing generally from users and seeing in our data as well as from analysts like 451 and IDC, those are a couple of different reports coming out, like right now or just came out, that Jonathan mentioned this morning, I think is adoption just continues to grow, and so you know, I think people are not looking at just one technology stack. And maybe they never were, but I think there was this kind of temptation to just think of it, is it containers versus VMs or is it Kubernetes versus OpenStack? And it's like, no one who really runs infrastructure thinks like that because they might have thought it until they tried it, they realized these things go together. So I think the future of this conference is just becoming more and more centered around what are the use cases? What are the technical challenges we're trying to solve? And to the extent we're getting patterns and tools that are emerging like the lamp stack of the cloud, so to speak. How can people adopt them? So you think about cloud as taking all kinds of new forms, edge computing, those are the kinds of things that I think will become a bigger part of the conference in the future. I do like the open infrastructure angle on this. I mean, as infrastructure folks, right, you know that that storage compute network doesn't manage itself, doesn't configure itself. >> Mark: Totally. >> Doesn't provision itself. And so a lot of the app layer things should rely on this lower layer. And I thought last year in Boston there was this kind of curious OpenStack or containers conversation, which seemed odd at the time, and that's clarified, I think, at a number of levels from a number of camps and vendors. >> Yeah I agree, I think we have done our best from our point of view, from the foundation, myself, and the others that are involved in our community to try to dispell those myths or tamper down that kind of sense of a rivalry, but it takes time and I do feel like there is kind of a sea change now. There are just so many people running in production with various container tools, predominantly Kubernetes and in OpenStack that I think that that sort of myth that they're, that one's replacing the other, it's hard for that cognitive dissonance to last forever when you're given like the hundredth example of like somebody running in production at scale. Like they must be doing it for a reason, and then people start to go, well why is that? >> And I did like the comment you did make about cloud is not consolidating and simplifying, right? Even at the Dell Technologies World show, Michael Dell got up and talked about the distributed core, which is a little bit of an oxymoron, but the fact is compute and compute is everywhere, right? And it's not only, it's on the edge, it's on telephone poles, it's in little boxes in our, you know, going to be on our walls, in our walls, right? And this open infrastructure idea can play everywhere. It's not just about an on-prem data center anymore. >> Yeah and I think that's a big part of why we started to say open infrastructure instead of cloud, just because, I mean, you know, I guess we spent 10 years arguing over the definition of cloud, now we can argue over open infrastructure. But to me it's a little more descriptive and a little less kind of, I don't know, a little less baggage than the term cloud. >> Yeah, definitely differentiates it as to where you sit in the marketplace. And one thing I definitely want to give the foundation great kudos on, the diversity of this show is excellent. Not just that there was a welcome happy hour and there's a lunch, but look at all the PTLs, the project leads that are there, a lot of diversity, up on stage. It's just evident. >> Mark: Thank you. >> And it's just something kind of built into the community, so great job there. >> Thank you, I'm very proud of the fact that we had just so many excellent keynote speakers this morning, and you know, that's always something that we strive for, but I feel like we got closer to the goal than ever in terms of just getting broad representation up on the stage. And some amazing leaders. >> It's always nice from our standpoint because we always say give us your keynote speakers and give us some of the main people making things happen, and it just naturally flows that we have a nice diversity, from gender, from geography. >> Yeah, absolutely. >> From various backgrounds, so that's good. All right, want to give you the final word. Take aways that you want people after the show or maybe some things that people might not know if they didn't make it here for the show. >> I mean, I think, you know, the number one take away is it's all about the people, and we want to make it about the headlines or the technology, and even the technology is about the people, but certainly the operators are not, like I said, logos don't operate clouds or infrastructure, people do, so getting to meet the people, seeing what they're doing, like the Adobe I mentioned, they're marketing cloud. They have 100,000 cores of compute with four people operating it. So if you've got the right four people and the right playbook, you can do that, too. But you got to meet those people and find out how they're doing it, get their recipe, get their playbook, and they're happy to share it, and then you can run at that kind of scale, too, without a big team and you can change the way you operate. >> Yeah, I know I said in my last question, but the last thing, I know there's been a big emphasis to not just do the two big shows a year, but the OpenStack days and other events globally, give people, how do they get involved and where can they come to find out more? >> Yeah, that's a great question. I'm glad you asked because, there are so many ways to get involved and of course it's online, it's IRC, it's mailing lists 24/7, but there's no substitute when it's about the people for meeting in person. So we have the two summits a year. We're also having an event which is called the PTG, which is really for the developers and some of the operators will be coming this fall as well where we're having it in Denver, but the summits are the big shows twice a year, but the OpenStack days are really important. Those are annual, typically one to two day events, in 15 plus countries around the world. One in particular that is going to be really exciting this year is in Beijing. You know, we've had that for the last couple of years. Huge event, but of course, others throughout Europe and Asia. Tokyo is always an awesome OpenStack day, and then there are quite a few in Europe as well. So that's another way you can get involved. Not necessarily have to fly around the world, but if you do have to fly around the world, being in Vancouver is not a bad spot, so. >> Yeah, absolutely, and boy we know there's a lot of OpenStack happening in China. >> Yes there is. >> So Mark Collier, thanks again to the foundation for allowing theCUBE to cover this. >> Sure. >> And thanks so much for joining us. >> Mark: Thank you. >> For John Troyer, I'm Stu Miniman, back here with lots more of three days wall-to-wall coverage here from OpenStack Summit 2018. Thanks for watching theCUBE. (techno music) (shutter clicks)

>> Announcer: It's The Cube covering OpenStack Summit 2017 brought to you by the OpenStack Foundation, Red Hat, an additional ecosystem of support. >> Welcome back, I'm Stu Miniman joined by my cohost John Troyer. Happy to welcome back to the program the two Keynote emcees for the first two days, Jonathan Bryce who's the executive director and Mark Collier who's the COO of OpenStack Foundation. Both of you, thanks so much for joining us. >> Jonathan: Yeah, thanks for having us back. >> It's great to be on The Cube. >> Thank you for the foundation. Without your guys' support, we couldn't do this. It's our fifth year doing the show. I remember the first year, John Furrier went. They were like, "Hey, OpenStack has arrived. "The Cube's there!" And now, it's part of our regular rotation. I know our community loves it. Community, opensource, big part of the show. I wish we had two hours to tease out all the pieces, but Mark, I got to start with you. You just did a live Q&A with Edward Snowden. Somebody joked, they said the quality and the sound was too good. He was sitting in the backroom somewhere. Can you just tell us, how did this come about and how do you make that work? >> Yeah. I mean, pinch me. Is this real life? I keep asking myself 'cause it seems kind of surreal. Just briefly, I got a lot of people that ask, "How did we get connected with him?" It's kind of a funny story, but basically, several years ago when the whole story came out about somebody from the government, from NSA had leaked these documents, but nobody knew who it was. I was on vacation, it was in the summer. I forget what year, I was on vacation with family. We were in the lobby of this hotel where we were on vacation and I've been following the story with some interest. All of a sudden, I see on the TV screen in the lobby of the hotel, "Breaking news, we're about to reveal "the name of the leaker." I look up and I'm watching it and it says, "Here it is. It's Edward Snowden." The first thing I did is I pull up my phone. I immediately look and see if edwardsnowden.com was available, so I registered it thinking, "Well, this might come in handy." Some person just became the most famous person in the world, possibly. It was available, so I'm like, I'm furiously typing on my phone trying to register the domain. I register the domain edwardsnowden.com. No idea what I would actually do with it, just thinking, "If it's there, "this name is about to become really famous," so I registered it. Didn't do much with it, I just put some Twitter feeds on there, just thought, "We'll see what comes of this." A little while later as things developed, he ended up in Russia. I was contacted by some of his team that said, "We're putting together a legal defense fund. "It'd be great if we could host it at edwardsnowden.com. "Could we buy the domain from you?" I was like, "You can have it, I'll donate it. "I just grabbed it 'cause I figured "this might come in handy someday, "just was an impulse." They said, "Great, thank you. "Edward thanks you, we're going to really use "this domain for his legal defense fund webpage," and all that stuff. Overtime, I occasionally would ping them and say, "Look, the domain's free. You've got it. "I want you to have it, it's not my name. "I don't have any need, I don't have any right to this. "You guys use it, but it would be great "if he could come on the Summit thing that we do." This was three or four years ago. They were like, "Oh yeah, he would love to do it "to thank you for donating the domain," but each time we talked, it was always like, the schedule didn't lineup. I've been literally asking him for six or seven Summits. This was the first time the schedules lined up. I didn't tell anybody 'cause I thought, this is never going to happen, this is a pipe dream. I don't want to promise anything. It was only just a few weeks ago that we found out the schedule's lined up, it's on. Got connected from there. He's obviously an opensource-person, has a lot of passion behind that. We thought this is pretty interesting for our audience, so it worked out. >> All right, so Jonathan. Let's reset for a second here (Jonathan laughs) and step back. One of the things we'd love to see is the foundation is self-aware. There's always that balance when you get into, you don't want to read the press or things like that because they don't understand what we're doing or where we're going or things like that. In your opening Keynote and throughout the show, we called it, it's a little bit of a reset. If you think about where people thought OpenStack was and where it was going three years ago, it was like, the Amazon this or the cheaper VMware or how that is, where it is, where it's going, who's leading, who's involved, winning-and-losing type stuff, you guys did a good job of laying that out, so congrats on that. Take us in a little bit, and what message did you guys want to get out this week? >> Yeah, I think that you're right, we are very self-aware. I think that some of that comes from our role. At the foundation, we are not selling a product. We don't have anything to sell off the back of a truck, so to speak. What we actually really care about is moving the state of the community and the technology we produce forward. The thing that's great about that is we can look at the portfolio of technologies that we have. We can look at the things that are in the market and if we see a shift there, it's not like we have a $500 million dollar line of business that, "Uh-oh, we need to keep milking this cash cow "and turn a blind eye to these changes over here." I think over the last couple of years, I talked about a shift in what private clouds can do now and how they're built and operated. We seen that and we've sort of been teasing that out a little bit at previous Summits whether it's demos with Kubernetes or different integrations with Cloud Foundry and other things like that. What we decided this time is coming out of last year, there was a lot of news. What we saw really picking up is there would be these rumors or misperceptions that somebody would put out there, you know? Not based on fact, not based on reality. We were like, "You know what? "We can't just try to subtly hint at what's going on. "Let's just go out there and actually address "the state of things," and I think what you mentioned is actually what's at the root of a lot of these misconceptions as people look at opensource now. Because so much technology gets developed that way, they look at it and they expect it to be like the old world of IT where you need to have Microsoft versus Linux, and you need to have Oracle versus MySQL. Actually, what we see is just the cloud overall is growing so quickly. Public cloud, everybody believes that's growing. What we see is, private clouds are growing. We see that servers, there are more servers this year than there were last year. There are more virtual machines this year than there were last year. Far more containers this year than last year. All of these technologies are growing, so it's not a zero-sum game where in order for OpenStack to succeed, AWS has to lose. I think that we feel that way and we see that, but we realize that this is... We need to just go at it directly. >> Mark, I've heard good feedback from people when, you know, core, where it is, how it's matured. People like the component piece. They'd be able to take some digital pieces which, my understanding, they could do that before, it's becoming highlighted a bit. We talked about some of the opensource days and Cloud Foundry, Kubernetes. The piece where we've heard some people poking holes in is what big tent we discussed last year. Big tent, we poked a hole, is it dead? How do we reposition that? >> Yeah, that's a great question. I think first of all, one of the things that this just this strange stroke of luck that maybe turned out to be bad luck was, one of the few times when a handful of developers went off and organized something, gave it a random name and the name really stuck. It actually was almost too good of a name. You heard Big Tent and everyone's just rolling off the tongue all the time, "Big Tent, Big Tent, Big Tent," so everyone had to have an opinion about it and was like, "This is a huge change." It really wasn't meant to be a huge change. It wasn't even meant to be broadcast that widely to everyone who's just observing OpenStack. That's just kind of what happens, people talk about it. I do think that we are entering a point now when we're thinking about composable, open infrastructure, yes, you need to have different components. You need to be able to pick them, but we're also getting more serious about what things need to exist in OpenStack. I talked about that a little bit this morning. Not every single thing that we've launched needs to continue to be an OpenStack project. Whether you call it the Big Tent or not, or if you give it different names, the reality is we need to adopt and integrate technologies from other communities. Any opensource community out there is potentially developing something really powerful. >> Jonathan: Did you mention the FCB thing this morning in your, I can't remember if-- >> Yeah I mentioned it briefly. A perfect example of this is a lot of OpenStack services have said, "You know, we need to distributed lock management function "in order to evolve as a service. "Where should we go build it? "How're we going to write it?" Then, this culture of, "Well, hold on. "There are a lot of them out there, they're proven. "What about Etcd?" So the forum, which is the first time we've really had a dedicated space at the Summit for both developers and operators to be in the same room, not just next door to each other. They had a discussion yesterday on this and they said, "Yes, we're going to go forward with Etcd." That's an opensource project, very proven, it solves this particular function, it's not developed inside of OpenStack, but who cares? It's opensource. We can work, we can be friends with anybody who builds great opensource software. Let's not reinvent the wheels. I think that does represent a bit of a shift in the philosophy and culture at OpenStack of not trying to just build every single thing from scratch 'cause that's not the best thing for our users or the market. >> I think the ecosystem message and the landscape message came through really clearly. This is my first OpenStack Summit. I was very curious about what is the shape of OpenStack? Where does it fit in? Talking about the upper layers and Kubernetes and the app layers, and now talking about the overall landscape, right. Why rewrite that something like Etcd write. The whole ecosystem has grown up around OpenStack. During the 70's, the whole foundation has been working on it, all the members. One thing that impressed me, we are post-hype cycle. There are real customers here. There are people building their first clouds right now on OpenStack. Could you talk a little bit about just the community in general, the composition of it and the actual real use cases that we're seeing that happen. >> We had some new companies that spoke here for the first time, GE was one. The U.S. Army Cyber School is another one. We had some companies that came back as well. I think that you hit on a key point which is the maturity of the software. A company like GE, especially in their healthcare division, this is a highly regulated company. It's probably the most regulated company out there when you consider the things they do with aviation, nuclear power, healthcare, finance and all these things. They don't take those decisions lightly at all. I think that is an indicator of that maturity. What we see in the makeup of the community is a broader set of industries than ever before. We had strong representation among IT companies early on and continued with that, but now we have industrial companies. We have manufacturing companies like Volkswagen, BMW, you know, a number of car manufacturers, and defense companies. I think that kind of plays into that. I think the other thing that we've seen... When we talk about the OpenStack community and the platform overall, we think of it as an ecosystem that has three main parts. There's the users, which, that's why we exist. We create software for it to be used. There are the developers who are doing that, and then there's the ecosystem of companies who create commercial products and services. I think that's actually just as important. Right now, at the phase that we're at is how that is also reaching maturity. In the earlier days of OpenStack, I think that we had a lot of startups and we had a lot of activity, but the market didn't know how to consume it. It didn't understand what it was. I think that actually scared off some companies and it made a little bit of it more confusing, but as you get a few years into that, some of those companies succeed. Some of them don't succeed, but what you arrive at is a clear understanding of what the market wants, how the products should shape up. You get companies that stop trying to build it all themselves, kind of along with the not-invented-here, and they partner with people who know how to do opensource or they come up with new delivery models. I think that, actually, just as important is the maturing that we've seen in the commercial ecosystem because that leads to sustainable business models for these companies like Red Hat and Rackspace and others that then drive the development, but it also leads to clear adoption choices for users. >> One of the things that I think came out of last year at the Austin Summit was just where OpenStack fits in in this hybrid world. I think about GE, Rackspace, Red Hat, all of those companies clearly span both sides of it. Back to that winning-and-losing discussion we had at the beginning, it was always public cloud versus the private and the infrastructure piece. We know it's a multi-cloud, hybrid cloud world. How do you see that fitting in the conversations? The other piece on that, I see a large number, it was a 74% of deployment according to your latest survey, are not U.S. which is the inverse of we see such. North America's where we have a lot of public cloud adoption so does that fit in? What dynamics may be mixed up with you, Mark? >> A couple things, I would say that what we're finding is a few years ago, it was like, are we going to do cloud? Okay, now it's yes. Then it was, which app it's going to be? It's going to be as many as we can get. Then it was, are we going to do public or private? Well, we picked one. Now it's, okay, yes to everything. It's going to be cloud, we're going to put as many apps as we can. We're going to do public and private, so what happens next? Now, it's a question of where. Where do you place each workload? Some of them belong in the public cloud, some of them don't. Economics plays a big factor, performance, compliance, all the things that he said. The three C's, capabilities. I think that's the next discussion point that's happening inside of these boardrooms with CTOs and IT leaders at the major companies. How do we get a sophisticated strategy for where to place the workload? In terms of the geographic dynamic, I think one of the things Jonathan hit on yesterday is that it's just the nature of opensource that you never know where it's going to go. You just have no clue. Really, any new technology development, the market's going to go somewhere you could've never predicted like, the crystal ball is dead. It's really roadmaps or almost obsolete. It's like, you need to create a structure for how you respond and adopt to change 'cause you know it's coming. What's happened with OpenStack 'cause it's been used in all these new and different ways, and part of that's geographic. It's used to power cell phone networks in all these different countries. It's being used to fit within regulatory requirements in certain countries in data locality, both for performance and other reasons. I think that's why you see it, it's a big world out there. More than 74% of the world doesn't live in the United States, so I think we're closer to the real percentage out there. >> I want to jump in with one thing that you said that I might disagree with slightly. >> Mark: Okay, let's have a debate. On the right... >> Well, you said that these are the conversations that CTOs and CIOs are having is the strategy about how to do it. I think it's a conversation they should be having... >> Mark: Okay, fair point. >> But I think that what we see is, we see a lot of companies-- >> After they hear this, maybe they'll start talking about the right thing. >> I think that we see that, but we're kind of on the front edge of cloud adoption >> That's a good point. >> in the OpenStack community. >> Mark: I concede your point, sir. >> And I think that one of the issues that we see still is that people are thinking about it too simplistically, almost. As Larry Ellison famously said, "The IT industry is the most "fashion-driven industry out there." I think that right now, there are a lot of companies that they still think that there's some shiny object that's going to fix it all for them. Right now, it might be public cloud or containers. They've heard this word and they think that's... Never happened. Never happened in the history of IT ever before. There has never been at technology that came along and fixed the stuff before it. They all get edited. So, yes. We were talking with a CEO just this week, and it was real interesting to hear his perspective because he said that he actually thinks that the pendulum is going to shift back towards private cloud for people who run any significant amount of software. He goes, "I know that is not a popular viewpoint right now, "and if I said that to most other "technology C-level execs, "they would probably disagree with me and go, "No, cloud first, containers," but I think that just the fundamentals behind it, over the next few years, I don't know if it will shift all the way back. It may, who knows? But that's definitely something that I think is going to change from where the current fab might be. >> We'll have to have you back later to talk about how public is now moving to edge. Edge, of course, lives. >> Yeah. Oh, yes. >> Edge is the new data center, is what they have. I do have one final question before we let you go. That whole new shiny stuff? The last couple years, I'd been hearing, everybody's like, "Containers are going to subsume and take over. "DockerCon will be the new thing. "Oh wait, Kubernetes is just "going to dominate and take it over," and we have CubeCon and the CNCF. There's lots of Linux Foundation shows that do partnerships with what you do in Cloud Foundry Summit and on all these other pieces. What do you see as the future for the OpenStack Summit? Does it get pulled? This is being pulled into pieces, but for the show itself, for the foundation, and how it fits with that whole broad ecosystem of opensource. >> Well, the OpenStack Summit has always had some specific purposes. Again, this gets back to the fact that we are an opensource community and a foundation built to support that opensource community. The primary purposes of the OpenStack Summit are basically to strengthen those three pillars that I talked about earlier, especially on the software angle. Mark mentioned that this time around, we are doing what we call the forum. We used to have the Design Summit here, and we actually split that into two parts: one that's very technical and it's really gets down into implementation details. That's split out into a separate event. It happened in February, it's going to happen in September. What we did here is we set up time where developers and operators can get together and talk about strategic issues. Instead of talking about, "How do we fix this issue on line X of file Y?" they're talking about, "What should we use for distributed storage "and lock management? "Should we do Etcd? Should we do Zoo?" They're having more strategic conversation. That is a very critical piece for our community and for the people who run on it. We do a lot of education here. I think that what we've seen is that the OpenStack Summit is becoming more focused around users and the strategic needs of them as we build out the technology versus what it used to be. It originally started as a hacking event for 75 software developers. That's where I think it's going. Just to address the other point, all of the other opensource projects, a lot of them are here and we go to their events because, again, like we've been saying, it's not a zero-sum game. What we care about is that there are open alternatives and that they work well together. One of the things that I think we've seen and we've seen it proven over and over again with OpenStack is that getting communities together in person, those high-bandwidth interactions are actually really critical to getting work done and making things happen. I think they're all valuable and we're going to continue to participate in all of them. >> Yeah, well, Jonathan Bryce, Mark Collier. Really appreciate you joining us. I'm sure we'll see you at many of those other shows that The Cube will be covering throughout the years. Stay tuned with us, we've got lots more covered here at OpenStack Summit 2017 in Boston. Thanks for watching The Cube. (minimal electronic music)

>> Narrator: Vancouver, Canada. It's theCUBE, covering OpenStack Summit North America, 2018. Brought to you by Red Hat, the OpenStack Foundation and its Ecosystem partners. (soft music) >> Hi, and you're watching SiliconANGLE Medias coverage of theCUBE, here at OpenStack Summit 2018 in beautiful Vancouver. I'm Stu Miniman with my co-host John Troyer. We've been here, this is now the third day of coverage, John. We've done a couple dozen interviews already. We've got one more day of coverage. We had some kind of perceptions coming in and I have some interesting differing viewpoints as to where we are for OpenStack the project, where this show itself is going. First of all John, give me your impressions overall. Vancouver, your first time here, city I fell in love with last time I came here, and let's get into the show itself, too. >> Sure, sure, I mean the show's a little bit smaller this year than it had been in past years. Some of that is because they pulled some of the technical stuff out last year, or a couple years ago. By being a little bit smaller, and being in a place like Vancouver, I get good energy off of the crowd. The folks we've talked to, the folks that have been going to sessions, have said they've been very good. The people here are practitioners. They are running OpenStack, or about to run OpenStack, or upgrading their OpenStack, or other adjacent technologies. They're real people doing real work. As we talk to folks and sponsors, the conversations have been productive. So, I'd say in general, this kind of a small venue and a beautiful city allows for a really productive community-oriented event, so that's been great. >> Alright, so John come on, on the analysis segment we're not allow to pull any punches. Attendance, absolutely is down. Three years ago when we were here it was around 5500. Mark Collier, on our opening segment, said there was about 2600. But two-year point, I've not talked to a single vendor or attendee here that was like, "Oh boy, nobody's here, "it's not goin' on." Yes, the Expo Hall is way smaller and people flowing through the Expo Hall isn't great all the time, but why is that? Because the people that are here, they're in sessions. They have 40 sessions about Edge Computing. Hot topic, we've talked a bunch about that. Interesting conversations. There is way more in Containers. Containers for more than three years, been a topic conversation. There's so many other sessions of people digging in. The line you've used a couple a time is the people here are people that have mortgages. In a good way, it means these are jobs, these are not them, "Oh, I heard about "this cool new thing, and I'm going to "go check out beautiful Vancouver." Now, yes, we've brought our spouses or significant others, and checking out the environment because yeah, this place is awesome, but there's good energy at the show. There's good technical conversation. Many of the people we've talked to, even if they're not the biggest OpenStack fans, they're like, "But our customers are using this in a lot of different ways." Let's talk about OpenStack. Where is it, where isn't it? What's your take from what you've heard from the customers and the vendors? >> Sure, I definitely think the conversation is warranted. As we came in, from outside the community there was a lot of conversation, even backchannel, like why are you going to OpenStack Summit? What's going on there, is it still alive? Which is kind of a perception of maybe it's an indication of where the marketing is on this project, or where it is on the hype cycle. In terms of where it is and where it isn't, it's built into everything. At this point OpenStack, the infrastructure management, open infrastructure management solution, seems to be mature. Seems to be inside every Telco, every cable company, every transportation company, every bank. People who need private resources and have the smarts and power to do that have leveraged OpenStack now. That seems stable. What was interesting here is, that that doesn't speak to the health overall, and the history of, or the future of the project itself, the foundation, the Summit, I think those are separate questions. You know, the infrastructure and projects seem good. Also here, like we've talked about, this show is not just about OpenStack now. It's about Containers, it's broadening the scope of these people informally known as infrastructure operators, to the application level as well. >> Yeah, if you want to hear a little bit more, some two great interviews we did yesterday. Sean Michael Kerner, who's a journalist. Been here for almost every single one of the OpenStack shows. He's at eWeek, had some really good discussion. He said private cloud, it doesn't exist. Now, he said what does he mean by that? There are companies that are building large scalable cloud with OpenStack but it's like if some of the big China Telecom, big China cloud companies. Oracle and IBM have lots of OpenStack, in what they do, and yes there are, as you mentioned, the telcos are a big used case. We had some Canonical customers talking about Edge as in a used case for a different type of scalability. Lots of nodes but not one massive infrastructure as a service piece. If I talk, kind of the typical enterprise, or definitely going the SNE piece of the market, this is not something that they go and use. They will use services that have OpenStack. It might be part of the ecosystem that they're playing, but people saying, "Oh, I had my VMware environment "and I want to go from virtualization "to private cloud" OpenStack is not usually the first choice, even though Red Hat has some customers that kind of fit into some of the larger sides of that, and we'll be talking to them more about that today. Randy Bias is the other one, take a look. Randy was one of the early, very central to a lot of stuff happening in the Foundation. He's in the networking space now, and he says even though he's not a cheerleader for OpenStack, he's like, "Why am I here? "That's where my customers are." >> Right, right. I mean, I do think it's interesting that public cloud is certainly mentioned. AWS, Google, et cetera, but it's not top of mind for a lot of these folks, and it's mentioned in very different ways depending on, kind of, the players. I think it's very different from last week at Red Hat Summit. Red Hat, with their story, and OpenShift on top of OpenStack, definitely talked public cloud for folks. Then they cross-cloud, hybrid-cloud. I think that was a much different conversation than I've been hearing this week. I think basically, kind of maybe, depends on the approach of the different players in the market, Stu. I know you've been talkin' to different folks about that. >> Yeah, absolutely. So like, Margaret Dawson at Red Hat helped us talk about how that hybrid-cloud works because here, I hate to say it's, some oh yeah, public cloud, that's too expensive. You're renting, it's always going to be more. It's like, well no, come on, let's understand. There's lot of applications that are there and customers, it's an and message for almost all of them. How does that fit together, I have some critiques as to how this goes together. You brought up another point though John, OpenStack Foundation is more than just OpenStack projects. So, Kata Containers, something that was announced last year, and we're talking about there's Edge, there's a new CI/CD tool, Zuul, which is now fully under the project. Yes, joke of the week, there is no OpenStack, there's only Zuul. There are actually, there's another open-source project named Zuul too, so boy, how many CI/CD tools are out there? We've got two different, unrelated, projects with the same name. John, you look at communities, you look at foundations, if this isn't the core knitting of OpenStack, what is their role vis-a-vis the cloud native and how do they compare to say, the big player in this space is Linux Foundation which includes CNCF. >> That's a good one. I mean, in some sense like all organic things, things are either growing or shrinking. Just growing or dying. On the other hand, in technology, nothing ever truly dies. I think the project seems mature and healthy and it's being used. The Foundation is global in scope and continues to run this. I do wonder about community identity and what it means to be an OpenStack member. It's very community-oriented, but what's at the nut of it here if we're really part of this cloud-native ecosystem. CNCF, you know, it's part of Linux Foundation, all these different foundations, but CNCF, on the other hand, is kind of a grab-bag of technology, so I'm not sure what it means to be a member of CNCF either. I think both of these foundations will continue to go forward with slightly different identities. I think for the community as a whole, the industry as a whole, they are talking and they better be talking, and it's good that they're talking now and working better together. >> Yeah, great discussion we had with Lisa-Marie Namphy who is an OpenStack Ambassador. She holds the meat up in Silicon Valley and when she positions it, it's about cloud-native and its about all these things. So like, Kubernetes is front and center whereas some of the OpenStack people are saying, "Oh no, no, we need to talk more about OpenStack." That's still the dynamic here was, "Oh, we go great together." Well, sometimes thou dost protest too much. Kubranetes doesn't need OpenStack, OpenStack absolutely must be able to play in this Container, cloud-native Kubranetes world. There's lots of other places we can learn about Kubranetes. It is an interesting dynamic that have been sorting out, but it is not a zero-sum game. There's absolutely lots, then we have, I actually was real impressed how many customers we got to speak with on the air this time. Nice with three days of programming, we had a little bit of flexibility, and not just people that were on the keynote stage. Not just people that have been coming for years, but a few of the interviews we had are relatively new. Not somebody that have been on since very early in the alphabet, now we're at queens. >> Right. >> Anything more from the customers or that Container, Kubranetes dynamic that you want to cover? >> Sure, well I mean just that, you know, Containers at least, Containers are everywhere here. So, I think that kind of question has been resolved in some sense. It was a little more contentious last year than this year. I'm actually more bullish on OpenStack as a utility project, after this week, than before. I think I can constantly look people in the eye and say that. The interesting thing for me though, coming from Silicon Valley, is you're so used to thinking about VCs and growth, and new startups, and where's the cutting edge that it's kind of hard to talk about this, maybe this open source business model where the customer basis is finite. It's not growing at 100% a year. Sometimes the press has a hard time covering that. Analysts have a hard time covering that. And if you wanted to give advice to somebody to get into OpenStack, I'm not sure who should if they're not in it already, there's definitely defined use cases, but I think maybe those people have already self-identified. >> Alright, so yeah, the last thing I wanted to mention is yeah. Big thank you to our sponsors to help get us here. The OpenStack Foundation, really supportive of us for years. Six years of us covering it. Our headline sponsor, Red Hat, had some great customers. Talked about this piece, and kind of we talk about it's practically Red Hat month on theCUBE for John with Red Hat Summit and OpenStack. Canonical, Contron, Nuage Networks, all helping us to be able to bring this content to you. Be sure to check out theCUBE.net for all the coverage in the past as well as where we'll be. Hit John Troyer, J. Troyer, on Twitter or myself, Stu, on Twitter if you ever have any questions, people we should be talking to, viewpoints, whether you agree or disagree with what we're talking about. Big thanks to all of our crew here. Thank you to the wonderful people of Vancouver for being so welcoming of this event and of all of us. Check out all the interviews. For John Troyer, I'm Stu Miniman. Thanks for watching theCUBE. (soft upbeat music)

>> Announcer: Live from Vancouver, Canada it's theCUBE, covering OpenStack Summit North America 2018. Brought to you by Red Hat, the OpenStack foundation, and its Ecosystem partners. >> Welcome back, I'm Stu Miniman and my cohost John Troyer and you're watching theCUBE's coverage of OpenStack Summit 2018 here in Vancouver. Happy to welcome first-time guest Roland Cabana who is a DevOps Manager at Vault Systems out of Australia, but you come from a little bit more local. Thanks for joining us Roland. >> Thank you, thanks for having me. Yes, I'm actually born and raised in Vancouver, I moved to Australia a couple years ago. I realized the potential in Australian cloud providers, and I've been there ever since. >> Alright, so one of the big things we talk about here at OpenStack of course is, you know, do people really build clouds with this stuff, where does it fit, how is it doing, so a nice lead-in to what does Vault Systems do for the people who aren't aware. >> Definitely, so yes, we do build cloud, a cloud, or many clouds, actually. And Vault Systems provides cloud services infrastructure service to Australian Government. We do that because we are a certified cloud. We are certified to handle unclassified DLM data, and protected data. And what that means is the sensitive information that is gathered for the Australian citizens, and anything to do with big user-space data is actually secured with certain controls set up by the Australian Government. The Australian Government body around this is called ASD, the Australian Signals Directorate, and they release a document called the ISM. And this document actually outlines 1,088 plus controls that dictate how a cloud should operate, how data should be handled inside of Australia. >> Just to step back for a second, I took a quick look at your website, it's not like you're listed as the government OpenStack cloud there. (Roland laughs) Could you give us, where does OpenStack fit into the overall discussion of the identity of the company, what your ultimate end-users think about how they're doing, help us kind of understand where this fits. >> Yeah, for sure, and I mean the journey started long ago when we, actually our CEO, Rupert Taylor-Price, set out to handle a lot of government information, and tried to find this cloud provider that could handle it in the prescribed way that the Australian Signals Directorate needed to handle. So, he went to different vendors, different cloud platforms, and found out that you couldn't actually meet all the controls in this document using a proprietary cloud or using a proprietary platform to plot out your bare-metal hardware. So, eventually he found OpenStack and saw that there was a great opportunity to massage the code and change it, so that it would comply 100% to the Australian Signals Directorate. >> Alright, so the keynote this morning were talking about people that build, people that operate, you've got DevOps in your title, tell us a little about your role in working with OpenStack, specifically, in broader scope of your-- >> For sure, for sure, so in Vault Systems I'm the DevOps Manager, and so what I do, we run through a lot of tests in terms of our infrastructure. So, complying to those controls I had mentioned earlier, going through the rigmarole of making sure that all the different services that are provided on our platform comply to those specific standards, the specific use cases. So, as a DevOps Manger, I handle a lot of the pipelining in terms of where the code goes. I handle a lot of the logistics and operations. And so it actually extends beyond just operation and development, it actually extends into our policies. And so marrying all that stuff together is pretty much my role day-to-day. I have a leg in the infrastructure team with the engineering and I also have a leg in with sort of the solutions architects and how they get feedback from different customers in terms of what we need and how would we architect that so it's safe and secure for government. >> Roland, so since one of your parts of your remit is compliance, would you say that you're DevSecOps? Do you like that one or not? >> Well I guess there's a few more buzzwords, and there's a few more roles I can throw in there but yeah, I guess yes. DevSecOps there's a strong security posture that Vault holds, and we hold it to a higher standard than a lot of the other incumbents or a lot of platform providers, because we are actually very sensitive about how we handle this information for government. So, security's a big portion of it, and I think the company culture internally is actually centered around how we handle the security. A good example of this is, you know, internally we actually have controls about printing, you know, most modern companies today, they print pages, and you know it's an eco thing. It's an eco thing for us too, but at the same time there are controls around printed documents, and how sensitive those things are. And so, our position in the company is if that control exists because Australian Government decides that that's a sensitive matter, let's adopt that in our entire internal ecosystem. >> There was a lot of talk this morning at the keynote both about upgrades, and I'm blanking on the name of the new feature, but also about Zuul and about upgrading OpenStack. You guys are a full Upstream, OpenStack expert cloud provider. How do you deal with upgrades, and what do you think the state of the OpenStack community is in terms of kind of upgrades, and maintenance, and day two kind of stuff? >> Well I'll tell you the truth, the upgrade path for OpenStack is actually quite difficult. I mean, there's a lot of moving parts, a lot of components that you have to be very specific in terms of how you upgrade to the next level. If you're not keeping in step of the next releases, you may fall behind and you can't upgrade, you know, Keystone from a Liberty all the way up to Alcatel, right? You're basically stuck there. And so what we do is we try to figure out what the government needs, what are the features that are required. And, you know, it's also a conversation piece with government, because we don't have certain features in this particular release of OpenStack, it doesn't mean we're not going to support it. We're not going to move to the next version just because it's available, right? There's a lot of security involved in fusing our controls inside our distribution of OpenStack. I guess you can call it a distribution, on our build of OpenStack. But it's all based on a conversation that we start with the government. So, you know, if they need VGPUs for some reason, right, with the Queens release that's coming out, that's a conversation we're starting. And we will build into that functionality as we need it. >> So, does that mean that you have different entities with different versions, and if so, how do you manage all of that? >> Well, okay, so yes that's true. We do have different versions where we have a Liberty release, and we have an Alcatel release, which is predominant in our infrastructure. And that's only because we started with the inception of the Liberty release before our certification process. A lot of the things that we work with government for is how do they progress through this cloud maturity model. And, you know, the forklift and shift is actually a problem when you're talking about releases. But when you're talking about containerization, you're talking about Agile Methodologies and things like that, it's less of a reliance on the version because you now have the ability to respawn that same application, migrate the data, and have everything live as you progress through different cloud platforms. And so, as OpenStack matures, this whole idea of the fast forward idea of getting to the next release, because now they have an integration step, or they have a path to the next version even though you're two or three versions behind, because let's face it, most operators will not go to the latest and greatest, because there's a lot of issues you're going to face there. I mean, not that the software is bad, it's just that early adopters will come with early adopter problems. And, you know, you need that userbase. You need those forum conversations to be able to be safe and secure about, you know, whether or not you can handle those kinds of things. And there's no need for our particular users' user space to have those latest and greatest things unless there is an actual request. >> Roland, you are an IAS provider. How are you handling containers, or requests for containers from your customers? >> Yes, containers is a big topic. There's a lot of maturity happening right now with government, in terms of what a container is, for example, what is orchestration with containers, how does my Legacy application forklift and shift to a container? And so, we're handling it in stages, right, because we're working with government in their maturity. We don't do container services on the platform, but what we do is we open-source a lot of code that allows people to deploy, let's say a terraform file, that creates a Docker Host, you know, and we give them examples. A good segue into what we've just launched last week was our Vault Academy, which we are now training 3,000 government public servants on new cloud technologies. We're not talking about how does an OS work, we're talking about infrastructures, code, we're talking about Kubernetes. We're talking about all these cool, fun things, all the way up to function as a service, right? And those kinds of capabilities is what's going to propel government in Australia moving forward in the future. >> You hit on one of my hot buttons here. So functions as a service, do you have serverless deployed in your environment, or is it an education at this point? >> It's an education at this point. Right now we have customers who would like to have that available as a native service in our cloud, but what we do is we concentrate on the controls and the infrastructure as a service platform first and foremost, just to make sure that it's secure and compliant. Everyone has the ability to deploy functions as a service on their platform, or on their accounts, or on their tenancies, and have that available to them through a different set of APIs. >> Great. There's a whole bunch of open-source versions out there. Is that what they're doing? Do you any preference toward the OpenWhisk, or FN, or you know, Fission, all the different versions that are out there? >> I guess, you know, you can sort of like, you know, pick your racehorse in that regard. Because it's still early days, and I think open to us is pretty much what I've been looking at recently, and it's just a discovery stage at this point. There are more mature customers who are coming in, some partners who are championing different technologies, so the great is that we can make sure our platform is secure and they can build on top of it. >> So you brought up security again, one of the areas I wanted to poke at a little bit is your network. So, it being an IS provider, networking's critical, what are you doing from a networking standpoint is micro-segmentation part of your environment? >> Definitely. So natively to build in our cloud, the functions that we build in our cloud are all around security, obviously. Micro-segmentation's a big part of that, training people in terms of how micro-segmentation works from a forklift and shift perspective. And the network connectivity we have with the government is also a part of this whole model, right? And so, we use technologies like Mellanox, 400G fabric. We're BGP internally, so we're routing through the host, or routing to the host, and we have this... Well so in Australia there's this, there's service from the Department of Finance, they create this idea of an icon network. And what it is, is an actually direct media fiber from the department directly to us. And that means, directly to the edge of our cloud and pipes right through into their tenancy. So essentially what happens is, this is true, true hybrid cloud. I'm not talking about going through gateways and stuff, I'm talking about I speed up an instance in the Vault cloud, and I can ping it from my desktop in my agency. Low latency, submillisecond direct fiber link, up to 100g. >> Do you have certain programmability you're doing in your network? I know lots of service providers, they want to play and get in there, they're using, you know, new operating models. >> Yes, I mean, we're using the... I draw a blank. There's a lot of technologies we're using for network, and the Cumulus Networking OS is what we're using. That allows us to bring it in to our automation team, and actually use more of a DevOps tool to sort of create the deployment from a code perspective instead of having a lot of engineers hardcoding things right on the actual production systems. Which allows us to gate a lot of the changes, which is part of the security posture as well. So, we were doing a lot of network offloading on the ConnectX-5 cards in the data center, we're using cumulus networks for bridging, we're working with Neutron to make sure that we have Neutron routers and making sure that that's secure and it's code reviewed. And, you know, there's a lot of moving parts there as well, and I think from a security standpoint and from a network functionality standpoint, we've come to a happy place in terms of providing the fastest network possible, and also the most secure and safe network as possible. >> Roland, you're working directly with the Upstream OpenStack projects, and it sounds like some others as well. You're not working with a vendor who's packaging it for you or supporting it. So that's a lot of responsibility on you and your team, I'm kind of curious how you work with the OpenStack community, and how you've seen the OpenStack community develop over the years. >> Yeah, so I mean we have a lot of talented people in our company who actually OpenStack as a passion, right? This is what they do, this is what they love. They've come from different companies who worked in OpenStack and have contributed a lot actually, to the community. And actually that segues into how we operate inside culturally in our company. Because if we do work with Upstream code, and it doesn't have anything to do with the security compliance of the Australian Signals Directorate in general, we'd like to Upstream that as much as possible and contribute back the code where it seems fit. Obviously, there's vendor mixes and things we have internally, and that's with the Mellanox and Cumulus stuff, but anything else beyond that is usually contributed up. Our team's actually very supportive of each other, we have network specialists, we have storage specialists. And it's a culture of learning, so there's a lot of synchronizations, a lot of synergies inside the company. And I think that's part to do with the people who make up Vault Systems, and that whole camaraderie is actually propagated through our technology as well. >> One of the big themes of the show this year has been broadening out of what's happening. We talked a little bit about containers already, Edge Computing is a big topic here. Either Edge, or some other areas, what are you looking for next from this ecosystem, or new areas that Vault is looking at poking at? >> Well, I mean, a lot of the exciting things for me personally, I guess, I can't talk to Vault in general, but, 'cause there's a lot of engineers who have their own opinions of what they like to see, but with the Queens release with the VGPUs, something I'd like, that all's great, a long-term release cycle with the OpenStack foundation would be great, or the OpenStack platform would be great. And that's just to keep in step with the next releases to make sure that we have the continuity, even though we're missing one release, there's a jump point. >> Can you actually put a point on that, what that means for you. We talked to Mark Collier a little bit about it this morning but what you're looking and why that's important. >> Well, it comes down to user acceptance, right? So, I mean, let's say you have a new feature or a new project that's integrated through OpenStack. And, you know, some people find out that there's these new functions that are available. There's a lot of testing behind-the-scenes that has to happen before that can be vetted and exposed as part of our infrastructure as a service platform. And so, by the time that you get to the point where you have all the checks and balances, and marrying that next to the Australian controls that we have it's one year, two years, or you know, however it might be. And you know by that time we're at the night of the release and so, you know, you do all that work, you want to make sure that you're not doing that work and refactoring it for the next release when you're ready to go live. And so, having that long-term release is actually what I'm really keen about. Having that point of, that jump point to the latest and greatest. >> Well Roland, I think that's a great point. You know, it used to be we were on the 18 month cycle, OpenStack was more like a six month cycle, so I absolutely understand why this is important that I don't want to be tied to a release when I want to get a new function. >> John: That's right. >> Roland Cabana, thank you the insight into Vault Systems and congrats on all the progress you have made. So for John Troyer, I'm Stu Miniman. Back here with lots more coverage from the OpenStack Summit 2018 in Vancouver, thanks for watching theCUBE. (upbeat music)

>> Announcer: Live from Vancouver, Canada, it's theCUBE covering OpenStack Summit North America 2018, brought to you by Red Hat, The OpenStack Foundation, and its ecosystem partners. >> Welcome back to theCUBE's coverage of OpenStack Summit 2018 in beautiful Vancouver, British Columbia. It's Victoria Day, but we're working. So for John Troyer, I'm Stu Miniman. Happy to welcome back to the program, we've got Tim Burke who's the Vice President of Infrastructure and Cloud Engineering with Red Hat, and fresh off the keynote stage we have Mark McLoughlin who's the Senior Director of Engineering for OpenStack, also with Red Hat. Gentleman, thank you so much for joining us. >> Our pleasure, thank you. >> Thank you. All right, so Mark, I'll start with you. Keynote stage, you had a good discussion about, we were talking about open source, talking about community, is the themes that we heard at Red Hat Summit last weekend and again here at OpenStack. It's a nice couple of years in a row we've had the back-to-back of those two shows, so give us a little bit encapsulation of that message. >> Sure, I mean the key message of the keynote, really, was talking about the overlapping missions between the OpenStack and Kubernetes and really kind of showing how they come together for our customers and for users generally in terms of tackling that kind of broad, open infrastructure challenge of trying to give businesses the opportunity to be free from the infrastructure providers in terms of being able to switch between infrastructure providers and also OpenStack in terms of its role offering kind of on-premise infrastructure as an alternative to the public cloud. >> Yeah, Tim, I want to get your viewpoint on some things. It's interesting, we talk about we're at the OpenStack show but we're talking about containers, we're talking about edge computing. I think about one of the other foundations, The Linux Foundation does way more than Linux these days. They're doing all the cloud native things. Reminds me a lot of Red Hat themselves, broad spectrum of products. Sometimes it can almost get a little bit overwhelming for most people to say, "Oh my god, "there's so many projects, there's so many products. "How do you help me get to where I need to go "and where I need to go tomorrow?" What are you hearing from customers? How do you manage that? >> I think a lot of this mirrors Red Hat Enterprise Linux, and back when we started it was the day of the Unix wars, right? And in the early days of Linux it was this big challenge of getting your graphics drivers and putting all these pieces together, right? And now today it's more about broader infrastructure orchestration. And you see Mark Collier, for example, from The OpenStack Foundation started today showing a list of 30 different components that you have to piece together. And really, I think that that's what Red Hat focuses on, is two things. It's one, is where do we want to take the technology tomorrow through our open source fund, ranging from Linux to OpenStack and Ceph Filesystems, for example. But it's not just that. It's how do you get these pieces to work together? And I think that that's something that hasn't traditionally been the strength of the open source community because they may stick into these silos of operation. And I think that Red Hat's focus and strength right now is to do what we did for Red Hat Enterprise Linux in the OpenStack space by pulling all of these pieces together in a consumable and supported manner. >> Yeah, it's funny you mention getting graphics cards in. Come on, with the Queen's announcement we now have the virtual GPU support, so it feels like, but you know what, we've come so far yet. We're doing some of the same things over again. What are you hearing that's just massively different about kind of the state of open source today? And we just had one of your customers on talking about their digital transformation. >> I think what's really changed over the years in open source is I think it started out, honestly, as a clone. It was like can we compete with the likes of Solaris, right? And so it was, I'd call it catch up for innovation. Now you look at open source. It's not catching up, it's leading all the innovation today whether it's all the major public clouds are based on open source technologies. When we started open source was unproven and many customers were skeptical of consuming it. Now you're seeing customers, governments, all sorts of different businesses demanding open source because they want choice, they don't want to be locked into any one vendor, and they want to be able to work collaboratively to harness the power. And I think that collective collaborative model has really pretty proven its effectiveness. >> Mark, I wanted to talk a little bit about OpenStack itself. I think last year at OpenStack Summit there was a lot of talk. People seemed to be a little bit confused or at least there was a lot of interesting architectural conversations, containers on top, containers on the bottom, what sits on the bare metal. This year both at Red Hat Summit and here and even in the industry at large I think a lot of that conversation has clarified. There's the (laughs) application layer and there's an infrastructure layer which does very hard things that the application layer does not have to worry about. How are you looking at OpenStack as a citizen of the industry and of the Stack connections with other open source and taking care of that infrastructure piece in 2018, right, which is, we're pretty far from where we started. >> No, great points. To highlight those architectural discussions and really trying to figure out the kind of layering there obviously kind of approach OpenStack as kind of the best tool for managing your infrastructure, getting your infrastructure under control, making it scalable, making it automatable, and then building an application platform on top of that. I may have confused the architectural discussion a little bit this morning with the keynote because what we actually showed in the keynote was on the rack on stage we had an OpenStack cloud running on bare metal and then we would end deploying Kubernetes. Our open shift distribution, we were deploying that also on bare metal alongside OpenStack. Whereas I think often people would assume if you're going to do Kubernetes on OpenStack you're going to do it in virtual machines that are managed by OpenStack. But we were actually showing how you can use OpenStack to manage the bare metal, that you're actually running Kubernetes directly on the bare metal but that there's still integration between Kubernetes and OpenStack when they're side by side. So maybe confused the architectural discussion a little bit more but I think it's really trying to highlight that that assumption of running Kubernetes inside virtual machines isn't necessary. >> You used one of my favorite tools in your keynote. You used Venn diagrams because it is not a thing over here and a thing over here. There's overlap and there's decisions that you'll make, and lots of customers want a platform that will guide them down that path. And they also, oh wait, but I have this custom thing that I need to do. What's the biggest problem we have in IT, is it's not standardized and nothing ever gets thrown away. It's like I want to run my docker image on a z/VM in a mainframe. Oh, Walmart does that, but they also have an OpenStack deployment. So (laughs) you hear all of these discussions out there where it's like wait, is this, you know, (laughs) is this the main thing? Is this modified? What sits on what and where? So it's and, it seems to be, and there's a lot of choices. >> Absolutely, and I think one of the really, you know, one of the really interesting things when you're working in this space is you realize that customers are making really long-term strategic decisions appear. The example I used today was BBVA, and they realized that they needed to kind of keep up with a fast-changing market and they needed an internal platform to allow them to do that. And this is about them making a long-term decision about how they were going to build that platform into the, it's a really kind of long-term and basing their business on that and its future. So that's, it's kind of humbling in terms of having that responsibility of making that work. >> Yeah, Tim, maybe we can get your comments on the ecosystem. We sure have watched three years ago when we were here HP had a big army coming in here as to they doing their distribution. Well, HP's a hardware, HPE, I should say as they are now (laughs) is a hardware partner. Red Hat works across all of the traditional infrastructure companies. This ecosystem changed. Red Hat has a broad ecosystem. What are you seeing out there? What do you get from the partners that they're asking, and how does that play? >> Yeah, I think this really, again, mirrors our approach to Red Hat Enterprise Linux. And so if you look at all the different dimensions of compute, network, and storage, we have ecosystem partners in all of those. So we have the likes for storage, we have NetApp, EMC, IBM, many others. We have backup vendors like Trilio in on that. On the network front we have Cisco, Juniper, many others. We have ecosystem partners of all the major hardware OEMs. We have ecosystem partners in Innovee and Telco, all those spaces. So I think what really is the main driver of Red Hat Enterprise Linux is the ecosystem. It's not really the kernel anymore. It's like how do you run a consistent platform across multiple footprints? And that's what Red Hat is trying to provide because today I see there is a risk of vendor lock, and just like back in the day it was mainframe, right? Try to get everything from the lowest layer to the top layer on one platform. Many of the public cloud vendors are trying to be that one-stop shop, almost analogous to the mainframe. And what we're trying to do just like we did before for his ecosystem is to provide through leveraging the power of open source a platform that people can run, a hybrid platform that they can accelerate their business not only on all the different public clouds but also on-premise as well. >> It's interesting, last week of course big announcement with Red Hat is Microsoft's up on stage. It was like cats and dogs living together. Year before, Amazon you had a big announcement with. With Kubernetes and so many of these different tools, yes, there's that vertical integration but most of the companies understand that they're going to be in a customer environment and other people are. There's no longer, it's oh, IBM of 50 years ago where I'm going to be full in on that chop. >> Right, and I see Kubernetes is also, it's a huge open source project. So this is the difference between upstream and productization. It's what Red Hat does, is we do our maintenance, our support, our hardening, creation of this ecosystem, long life cycle support. The same thing's going to happen in Kubernetes where it's you don't just grab it upstream and run with whatever happens to be in it. And I think that there's a lot of companies that are claiming that just that Kubernetes is ubiquitous. And it's like the community innovation is ubiquitous and we're all in for advancing that. But it's really, if you're going to bet your business you want something that's productized and hardened by a contributor that you can trust. >> Well Tim, I want to connect that back with some of the other stuff that we've talked about on stage today. RHEL, super solid, history of engineering. The lower levels of your Stack need to be solid because you depend (laughs) on them. We talked a little bit about, on stage, about upgrades and things like that and how people are moving forward, the release schedule. I don't know, Mark, how are you approaching both upgrades and automation with Ansible? But other, OpenStack has other components too. How are you approaching that in the OpenStack day two to day 1000 scenario? >> Well absolutely, great question because today we've just announced our upcoming Red Hat OpenStack Platform 13 release, and that's our long life cycle release. So our last long life cycle release was version 10, and we've had a couple of shorter life versions in between. But when it comes to the upstream community what's supported in terms of upgrade is between those individual versions. When we came out with version 13, with this long life version, we have to support seamless upgrades between 10 and 13 in place without disrupting workloads that are running in your environment and make it completely smooth and seamless. And we're doing that with a feature called fast forward upgrades which is completely automated with Ansible. So that's been a big part of our focus with our engineering investment for open-- >> Ansible came up a couple of times on stage both with Zuul and also with the fast forward upgrades and it might have slipped in there a couple more times. It seems like Ansible is a big part of even this community. >> No, we're very happy with Ansible and it's a really powerful tool when it comes to automation. Got an amazing community around us. Kind of real, it's been a kind of an organic growth and we've been really happy with the team since they've joined Red Hat. It's a great foundation for everything we're doing. >> And Ansible's not just a foundation with an OpenStack. It's, for example, we have Ceph integration in with Ansible. We have OpenShift is how we deploy it using Ansible. It's how we're using NREL to what we call System Roles to be able to make it easier to upgrade from one to the other. So by combining a single technology it's making it easier for us to put together an integrated portfolio. >> Great, Tim, when people leave this show what are some of the key messages you want to make sure that they've heard from Red Hat as part of this community? >> I would say that it's Red Hat is bringing an integrated portfolio Stack because it's not just about components. It's really about how can you build, develop, and deploy applications rapidly and what's the most enterprise-ready dynamic environment that enables you to do that, and that's what we think that the power of Red Hat through its credibility in the open source community to bring all of those pieces of the Stack together from top to bottom. >> Stu: All right, and Mark, we'll give you the final word. >> Yeah, I'd actually reach for what we're reinforcing a lot on this summit. We're talking about innovate, empower, and accelerate, and that's really about these businesses that are our customers who are dealing with the challenge of trying to keep up with a rapidly changing market. And they need to innovate more. They need to move faster, need to accelerate. But they also need to empower their own application developers to do that innovation, to really kind of keep pace with the market. >> All right, well Tim Burke, Mark McLoughlin, thanks so much for all of the updates here. For John Troyer, I'm Stu Miniman. Back with much more coverage here at OpenStack Summit 2018 in Vancouver. Thanks for watching theCUBE. (upbeat music) (slow tones playing)

(energetic music) >> Narrator: Live from Boston, Massachusetts it's the Cube, covering OpenStack Summit 2017 brought to you by the OpenStack Foundation, Red Hat, and additional ecosystem support. >> Hi and welcome back to SiliconANGLE TV's production of the Cube here at OpenStack Summit 2017 in Boston. I'm Stu Miniman joined with my co-host for the week, John Troyer. As you can see behind us, the day 2 keynotes letting out. John, it's always interesting to look at these shows. They had some demos that were awesome, a couple of demos were the demo gods were not smiling on them. They had Edward Snowden live via Q&A. They had Brian Stevens, who we're going to be talking with in a little bit, the CTO of Google, who was on The Early Start. For me, they're a little up and down. There's some of the vendor pitches in there, people are like, "Oh I have a great demo," and then you say, "Come to my booth "and see a bunch of my sessions." So, a little bit uneven and disjointed, which has been a some of the feedback you get about OpenStack in general over the last few years as to all those pieces come together. But yeah, what are your early thoughts coming out of the day 2 keynote? >> Well, it was definitely a keynote focused at the OpenStack community. We started off with open source and talking about the importance of open source, which is a little bit odd, because everyone here know that. I did like the message that OpenStack was composed of different projects, that it was a piece of the puzzle, not the whole puzzle. You and I both noted VMware's Scott Lowe tweeted, "It's good to the OpenStack Foundation talking about being a part of the overall solution, not the overall solution." I mean, as one example, they mentioned using etcd, which is a distributed key value store, instead of writing their own. Etcd powers Kubernetes. Your would be insane in 2017 to rewrite or distribute a key value pair, sorb at this point. Because, it's just out there, it's mature. You know, OpenStack has been around for seven years. There's been a lot of ecosystem grown up around them. >> Yeah, yeah. A couple of pieces on that. One is, there was a message about like, oh I can now take the individual components of OpenStack. I could actually do that before. I've noted, I've talked to a number of software companies, that when you did down into what they're doing, oh what do you know, there's, you know, there's Syndrr. Or, there's, you know, something in there, just as when I use AWS, I can use some of the individual components, same thing with OpenStack. It's not a monolith. There are the individual pieces. But, they're highlighting that a little bit more. They're saying use some of the pieces. The other thing, on the open source in general, they noted that like, in the artificial intelligence machine learning space, like, everyone that you see is using open source. Everything from Google and TensorFlow, is one that gets highlighted a lot. Amazon made a big push at their show about what they're doing with, you know, some of the machine learning. I can't remember right now, the program on there. But, right, in some of these emerging spaces, open source is the defacto way to do that. We had, in one of the conversations we had yesterday with one of the Cysco Distinguished Engineers, you know, it used to be standards. Now, open source really drives a lot of that. I actually got a quick conversation with Martin Casado, who had, you know, worked on a lot of open source things before Vmware acquired him. And, now he's at Andreessen Horowitz looking at all the open source models. So, unfortunately Martin didn't have enough time to come on the program, but we've had him on many times. Yeah, so sometime he's going to do that. >> Stu, I have a question. >> Stu: Yeah. >> The message today of being part of an ecosystem and being a componentized, open source set of projects, does that detract or add to this conversation around OpenStack Core versus Big Tent? >> I think Big Tent is dying. We talked to a number of the participants yesterday and said it was a little overblown. It does not mean that some pieces might still get worked on, but it's the core components. And you know, when dug into the survey, how many of the pieces do we really need? We want to make sure the Core works. I can have that distribution if I want to do what is OpenStack. When they highlighted those components, it wasn't 27 different projects there. You know, I think it was a handful of like six. >> Yeah. >> That were there. So, you know Swift and Syndrr, some interesting, cool little graphics. It was ironic, I tell you. The little graphic there, that was like a scary looking bear. It's like, I wouldn't want to run into him in a cartoon alley. Uh, but (laughs). >> Yeah, I did tweet. Yeah, there was an angry bear, kind of a poisonous spider, and a horse's behind. So, I'm not quite sure about the marketing there. But (laughs). >> What is the message you're sending? But, there's some fun. We've got, you know, Mark Collier and Jonathan Bryce coming on soon. We can ask them, you know, was this the community? And are there just some people that have a funny sense of humor, and this is how they show it? >> I did love the demos in today's talk, Stu. I especially liked, they spun up, live on stage, 15 from scratch, OpenStack clouds. And then, had them all join a CockroachDB cluster. I thought that was kind of cool and amazing. >> Yeah, absolutely. You talk about that hybrid, multi cloud world, showing it, you know, in reality, how that works. Pretty neat, and you know, you can actually see some applicability as to how that would fit into a customer environment. And, kudos to all the people. I mean, these were live, no net demos, not Camtasia, not some prerecorded things. Because like, oh wait, this thing's not quite ready to be able to be bootable, or you know, let me come in. I mean, they're up there on stage doing it. The wifi all seemed to work fine. That wasn't a challenge, but yeah, it was pretty cool. >> Well again, trying to give the message that OpenStack is indeed not a science project. That it's live, that it's configurable, that it's stable, that it's installable. And, I think that kind of message of stability, and configurability, and simplicity maybe is one of the ones they're trying to hit here today. >> Yeah, last thing I want to hit on, John, is I want to get your opinion. We throw out the term "open" a bunch. And, I'm watching some of the other industry things, and they say "open" when they mean "choice," as opposed to "open" as in "open source." So, you know, we see Google here, and Google talks about open. So many things that are now open source, a lot of times started out as a Google white paper or something. As we all say, we're all using open source which Google was using 10 years ago, right? You know, MapReduce, and Borg, and Spanner, and some of those things eventually get their way out. I've got some view points on this, but love to get your take first, yeah. >> Well, I mean, definitely it was an homage to open source this morning. In some ways, it was kind of a dig at AWS and Amazon, which uses a lot of open source tools, but does not share back. You know, OpenStack is clearly open source, and they were emphasizing that. I don't know. What are your thoughts, Stu? >> Yeah, it's, customers now, it used to be if you said open source, you know, go back 10, 15 years, and it was like, ooh, no. Now, open source is, a lot of times, a plus, something that they're asking for. Many companies are contributing and engaging in that. OpenStack is a great example of companies that have participated, you know, in helping to build OpenStack. That being said, you know, I always go to, you know, what's the problem to be solved, what's the solution that solves it. And, if it happens to be a little bit pre standard, or not 100% open source, most companies are fine with that. We were at Red Hat Summit last week with the Cube though, and everything they do is 100% open source. They're building their business. Their customers are really happy. So, you know, open source still has a little bit of a double edged sword as to how you do it. But, you know, open source absolutely, there's no question of if open source, it's how much, and to what extent, and where it fits. >> Sure, there is an ecosystem of providers here. There's always lock-in when you make a technical choice. But, in this case, I think they've successfully were trying to show off that there is a choice of clouds. There is an open, a set of open source components that you can mix and match. And so, that actually ties in very well to the interview with Edward Snowden. >> Yeah, absolutely, yeah. It was, and last point. Edward Snowden, towards the end he said fear is, I think the quote was, "the most powerful weapon in the world today." From a political statement, is what he's doing. Fear in IT is a powerful weapon. We know that, you know, enterprise and inertia, you know, tend to go together. With my background in networking, I used to draw these timelines. And, say, from when the time the standard was done to when, you know, the early majority adopt, is often times a decade. So, the technology adoption, moving the operational, we know the people piece is always tough to do, moving my applications. We think people are definitely moving faster, but fear is definitely something that holds them back. What do you see, john? >> Sure, I think the through line of the whole morning was about choice and diversity. Edward Snowden talked about the centralization of information services like Facebook, Google, and Twitter. And I think, and I think by implication, Amazon. And, I think the message that he was giving to the OpenStack crowd was look, you are enabling a multitude of services and a multitude of clouds, and that actually is a lever, a cultural lever against the over centralization of commercial forces, which are a little bit outside people's control. >> Yeah, so John, thanks for helping me wrap up day one. As always, we welcome our audience to please send us feedback. John and I are both pretty active on Twitter, very easy to get in touch with. We are at so many shows. You can check out SiliconANGLE TV. See where we're at. If we're not at a show that you think we should be at, reach, there's contact information at the top. If there's guests that we should have on our program, we're always looking for feedback. Love to get, especially those end user stories, talking about with interesting startups. So, we've got two more days of live coverage. So, for John and myself, stay with us. And, thanks, as always, for watching The Cube. (exciting music)