(upbeat music) >> From the SiliconANGLE media office, in Boston Massachusetts, it's theCUBE. (upbeat music) Now, here's your host, Dave Vellante. >> Hi everybody, welcome to this cube conversation. This is part of our CIO series and Jason Thomas is here, he's the CIO of Cole, Scott, and Kissane. CSK is Florida's largest civil defense law firm. Cube along Jason Thomas, great to see you again, thanks for coming on. >> Yeah, thanks for having me. >> So, let's talk a little bit about, the firm. largest firm in Florida, the focus is on Civil Defense, so you got lawyers, you got paralegals running around, you got demanding clients. What's the business like that's driving your technology strategy? >> so when I I'm new to legal, so this, I've been here about almost four years now, so I started January. a whole different world. I came from, from Startup Biotech, that line of business and a completely different animal. it's some of what you imagine, very always on the go, very busy, lot of business, we open dozens of cases a day, new cases, so a lot of things going on. >> Really event driven? >> Yeah very, very busy, so and you know technology's, you know the firm has taken stance that, technology is very important, to the firm and, we want to use the best technology possible, to make us as efficient as possible, so that's the chief driver, for tech at the law firm. >> So tech, you know, 15 years ago, whatever it was like, take an email to SaaS, right? So, but I would imagine you're focusing a lot on just attorney and employee productivity, maybe collaboration, document management, compliance. Are those some of the hot topics? And how are you applying technology to deal with those? >> Yep, so that is a big drive, efficiency, using technology to be efficient, and to make our folks productive. What we don't want to see, and that you see sometimes, you throw a whole bunch of technology at folks thinking that it's going to make them efficient and productive, and actually, it could be the greatest technology in the world for one place, and apply it, and you put it in another firm, and it makes us unproductive, so that's kind of the magic there. Kind of a trick to figuring out, what is it that actually is going to make us productive? >> Are there pretty clear swim lanes in your firm? Or is there a lot of shadow IT going on? Because I would imagine a lot of the frustration of, you know, IT folks is, you get the shadow IT, they bring in a point product, and that IT goes, "CIO's calling clean up this crime scene," and is that a problem in your firm specifically? Or even your industry? Or is it pretty much hey, let the tech folks figure out what the right tool for the job is? >> so in my mind the trick here is, it's not going to be any one person, or any practice group that's going to define what's the best option, what's the best tech. I mean thankfully for me, I do try and drive most of the tech out the firm, but the key is, you have to understand how the business runs. Just because it's cool tech, or it's working at one firm, doesn't mean it's going to apply or work in others. So, I spent a lot of time, in conversations with, a lot of the partners and associates. I try to make myself available as much, just to chat, see what they're doing. see what could make them more efficient. Sometimes if you don't ask, they don't even tell you, but if you ask the question, you can learn a lot in 20 minutes from somebody. And that kind of helps me decide, okay, what is going to make sense, or what's the next thing I should be looking at, to help folks out. >> So basically, Columbo questions, for those of you who remember Columbo, kind of ask your basic questions? What about work flow, how do you spend your time? What kinds of questions would you ask attorneys? >> honestly they could be calling about something completely unrelated to what, you know, what I'm thinking. It just could be as simple as, "Hey I'm this thing with this program where I'm trying to do X and this is the way we're doing now. Is there a better way to do it?" Or, it could be as simple as, we just kind of fall into the conversation based on other things. You know. They just want to talk to somebody sometimes. But they're not necessarily going to bring it up, or just don't have the time, they don't have the time. >> So a lot of times in theCUBE we get caught up, We love the tech, we talk about data science, and machine learning, and block chains and everything else, but then there's this basic blocking and tackling, that the CIO has to worry about. I wondered if you could share your perspectives based on your experience, just in terms of, some of the advice you might give to, organizations that are maybe growing, maybe haven't had the experience of a CIO that's been around the block, maybe in different industries? But some of the basic blocking and tackling that you see, that maybe doesn't happen in organizations, that really needs to happen. >> the expectation, or when you're thinking about, thinking about what the next thing is for the firm, or for your company, you also want to kind of think, you want to think long term as well. You want to think three to five years out. So, if we do this now and based on our current, growth projections, will this work for us in three years? Will this work for us in five years? Or what's our game plan? Maybe we start small, and, expand from there, but you don't want to just plan for the immediate you want to plan for the future. That's kind of, I think that's what CIO should be doing. It's not just about the tech, or is it going to work in our environment, but is it going to work for us down the road. Because we don't want, nobody, CFOs don't want to hear, and CEOs don't want to hear that, hey, yeah we just bought this thing last year, but, yeah we're going to have to buy something new now because it doesn't work anymore. >> But it does happen sometimes? >> It happens all the time, you know. >> Right, I remember, it goes a ways back now, but the federal rules of civil procedure, I think it was 2006, and everybody was rushing to plug holes because the courts ruled that electronic material was evidentiary, for whatever, seven years or something. So everybody was like okay, we need to have a system that allows us to comply. So, they went out and bought email archiving systems, which they knew they were going to have to throw away in three or four year. So how do you deal with it? Do you face that? Especially in a compliance oriented world, and you just try to sort of balance the cost and the throw away nature of that initiative with something more strategic? How do you deal with that? And how do you communicate that to the powers that be? >> Number one, no one likes to be held at gunpoint, number one, and especially my boss, so. I mean he gets it right, I mean there's regulations. But I will say, nothing happens as fast as everyone says it's going to happen. so there's always that idea. There's always this panic, oh we've got to put this in, and honestly I feel like tech folks use an excuse, and of course I do too. Say like, oh you all this is awesome. You know, we get to put something new in and, you know no one's going to say no and, it's not always the best approach, and again you kind of have to look at it long term, holistically for the business. You know, what is really going to happen in a few years? Is this technology going to even be a thing in a few years? Or is it just like, just to satisfy an immediate solution? Because again, I don't want, the last thing I hate doing is putting something in and telling my boss that it has to be replaced. He hates hearing that, and I don't want to tell him that either, quite frankly it's embarrassing. >> I don't blame your boss. >> Yeah it's embarrassing, it's just, let's do it right the first time. >> How do you do planning? I mean obviously there's a technology component, of planning, but I'm inferring from what you say that the end of technology is kind of the, the last thing you should be worrying about. You should be worried about the direction of the firm, the business, the growth plan, how do you do, as CIO, planning and how do you align that with the business? >> conversations, so lots of conversations. Lots of conversations with the attorneys. continued conversations with my boss, the CEO, and sometimes I'm not really great about it sometimes. And, you know, weeks will go by, you know, and I won't even have a conversation with him, about what's going on, and he wants to know what's going on. He doesn't understand all of it, but in those, you know, 15, 20 minute conversations, you'll be surprised what you'll learn. What's going on in the business that you didn't, or I didn't know about, and from there I can make decisions about, you know, six months from now, or next year, or during budgeting season, what it is that we need because, budgeting season is not really the time that you need to try and figure out what you want to do for next year. You want to have a plan months before that. You know, You already want to have kind of an idea of what you want to do, I mean, I've been talking to my CFO since, the beginning of summer about things we want to do for 2020. you know, six months, nine months, ahead of time, so. >> So, do you do basically annual planning? Do you try to look out further? Do you formally document that stuff? >> Every quarter, so we have, we kind of have most of the conversations with our, with my CFO and COO. every quarter we have kind of a list of projects/ what is it we want to do for the next couple quarters. We just kind of, track that and based on what we're seeing and how we do, then we, basically we plan each quarter, is how it comes down to. And we have a, we'll call it a white board, a virtual white board of what we're doing and what we want to do. >> But relatively near the midterm planning, you know doing like five year plannings though right? >> No. >> Waste of time to try to do that, or? At least in your business, maybe in pharmaceuticals? >> At least for us it was really, it's hard for us, to do that because of how quickly we grew over the last, again I've only been here almost four years, but even when I started, in 2015, I think we had somewhere around 300 plus attorneys. Now we're somewhere in the 475 range, I'm not saying no one saw that happening, but I don't think we expected that. I mean business has been great and we're happy, and we're fortunate to have it, but you can only plan so much. but do the best you can with the data you have. >> And for organization structure, you report to the CFO, is that correct? >> CEO. >> CEO? Okay so the, so you're a peer essentially of the CFO, is that right? >> Yeah. >> So you talk to the CFO about budgeting? >> Yeah. >> So you've got the CEO's >> More of the nitty gritty you know the details and numbers. >> What's that conversation like? Is it obviously you've got to justify, show a business case, or is it more sort of hate space? >> So here's the good news. I got lucky again. the CFO is very technology forward and so he understands that it drives a lot of efficiencies within the firm. So he gets it but he's been in the history long enough to get it and knows that we can, again he's efficiency a lot, but there's just a lot of efficiencies, and a lot of inefficiencies seen in a lot of what folks do in law firms that no one takes the time to sit down and say okay why do you do it like this? there's got to be a better way. Well this is the way I just do it, and so, we've been able to kind of adjust a lot of those work flows, or change those work flows to make it more cost effective for the business. Like even things simple as, just manage print service, you know, do we store 100 toners in the back somewhere and then wait for someone to, say that they're out of toners? That's not very efficient. and it's very expensive actually, so you put in a much more efficient process in place for toners. Because we're a paperless firm, but you know, I mean we still have to print, so. >> So, the joke about the paperless office was something like paperless bathroom. So, the other way around, I want to ask you about security. Are you the defacto Chief Information Security Officer, or do you have a CISO, or? >> I do not have a CISO that is me, so that'll be me. >> So, that is you. Alright so let's talk security. So, what is the state of security and as you see it? it's constantly evolving. Security practitioners tell us that they got so many tools, they got, they might have a SEC ops team, you may or may not, it may be something embedded in your team, but they've got to respond, they've got to respond, sometimes it's hard to figure out what they should respond to, prioritization, the data, keeping up with the bad guys, all that stuff. What's your state of security? >> so I think these days, it's not really, it's not really about having the best firewall, or the best, outside protection, so I think a lot of the attacks that are happening now, not that they don't happen form the outside, but a lot of it is a lot of social engineering, and a lot of everything. They're taking advantage of the the ignorance of the users, for lack of a better way to say it, so a lot of it's coming in through email, malicious links, and they're taking advantage of the inside, and bad practices, and bad policies, and/or lack of So, I think based on what we see in the news now, and what you read about, it seems like there's a breech every week somewhere. And when it comes down to it you find out that X company didn't, didn't use a strong hashing. For assaulting, on the hashes for their passwords. Like simple simple, just basic basic stuff. It's not like some massive operation like you see in a movie where you know, they're making this big plan to break in a building and it pans out and they're sneaking in you know, from the ceiling and all that kind of stuff. They're just basic stuff, they're just passwords. How can passwords, reused passwords, just databases of passwords everywhere, out in the dark where you can just buy, and they're just utilizing simple stuff like that. It's not even complicated anymore, it's just, it's a lot of social engineering. >> Often times I say that bad user behavior trumps good security every time, I wanted to ask you about the state of the self security in the industry. So you are reinforced, we were there, and Steven Schmidt stood up and he said, "Look at this narrative from the vendor community that says security is broken, isn't productive. It hurts the industry at the same time." I was at VM world recently a couple months ago, last month actually, Pat Kelsinger basically stood up and said security is broken and we're here to fix it, they bought, you know made a big acquisition of carbon black a local company, so you have these two different, you know, polarizing opinions, I don't necessarily feel like the state of security is great. I look back every year I say do I feel more secure or not, you know remember art cove yellow, every year RSA would write his letter. but what are your thoughts on that? Are you basically saying hey, it's, a lot of times it's user behavior, it's things that maybe, you know it's education, is security a do over? I guess is my question. >> A do over in the sense that I think it just comes out to basic education. I have, you'd be, we're in tech and we understand security and we have all these grand ideas and technologies and vendors and software that we use to do different things on all these fancy dashboards. But, if you ask the basic person off the street about, I think I saw a skit on Twitter the other day and you know there was this guy going around asking them, asking people, you know, what's your Facebook password, or you know how complex is it and they'll just give them their passwords and stuff you know, and I mean there's just a lack of basic education, so all us security buffs walk around, and they don't understand what we're talking about, but they don't need to understand what we're talking about. We just need to be able to look, to just have a basic security awareness and training with folks. I have a friend who works in industry, or in a nonprofit that does, that helps folks who've been you know kind of, harassed or abused online. And she's saying, she's telling me, she's like, "Look you guys are great you're really smart, but these folks, they don't know the basic stuff like hey you know someone keeps logging into my internet, and I keep seeing someone, you know, these weird things in my yard, like cameras in my yard and, can I do this with my phone, and oh well I can't use, like, my dogs name for my Facebook password? Like this is just basic stuff that nobody knows. It's not because they're stupid it's just, they just don't know." And so, like we're up here, and your average everyday person is just on this level. >> How about ransom ware? Obviously a hot topic in the business. what should people be, what should they know and what should they be doing? >> at a basic level security ware is training, it's very simple to do, there's a lot of, no that I'm, pushing products there's plenty of products out there. Secure great ones that kind of help your user, or teach them what not to do, or what to look for. we run a fishing campaign in our firm every once in a while and at this point no one clicks on anything without asking. I mean I get direct emails and I say hey, how's this look? Does it look like I should click it or, you know, does it look legit, I mean it's great. They ask now, they know not to do it. Whereas, I mean that's how they get you. That's how they get most of these places. Especially from we get a lot of, we constantly hear about small firms or smaller clients/companies getting hacked, we constantly get emails from them all the time. They'll get hacked and then we'll get the the emails with the links or whatever. that's one on the user side. On the IT side, we just really need to take it back to the basics, let's make sure we have, backups, and a backup policy, and a data protection policy, and an instant response plan. Let's have a plan here, let's not react when something happens, let's just have a plan. Honestly at our firm, we do have backups, we have layered strategy, but there's just some basic things that we don't do, like you know, IT folks, we don't, we don't keep things on our desktop. Let's start with us, you know we're supposed to be the leadership, in this regard, so let's not keep stuff on our desk let's keep stuff on the network. Let's keep it protected. Make sure it's part of the backup schedule. things like that, I think you just start there, because I was you know, I was just reading about, there's an article that came out yesterday, I think it was Washington Post, and it was talking about the ransomer incident in Baltimore a few months ago. They're just now finding out that the, even the IT folks had stuff on their local computers that couldn't be recovered, important documentation. So, this is just data protection 101. You know, we've got to take it back to the basics, take it back. >> Last question, is just kind of your career, so you mentioned before, you were in, I think you said health care, or? >> Yeah so I worked with MSP, so I worked with a lot of start ups. >> So, how'd you get here how'd you become a CIO? People out there may be, you know people in tech, they aspire perhaps to stay in tech, but they want maybe more of a management role. What was your path, and what kind of advice would you give them? >> what I would say is, so it worked out where, I was I was a lead at the company I was at here in Mass at the time, and so long story short my wife had an opportunity in Orlando, we moved, and I said I would never work for a law firm, ever. because I was, when my current boss found out I was coming we have a, a long relationship. When I was in, grew up in Florida and so part of that yeah, okay so I was in the right place at the right time and I knew somebody, that's why it's important to stay on top of networking. Always be networking, not for any other reason, just get to know people, you know. the tough thing that I had growing in the industry, I didn't get involved early on, which I should've. I should've gone to events, things like that. Get to know folks because if the people don't know you, why are they going to hire you? It's easier to get in somewhere, or get an opportunity, if they at least know you, or know your name, or know somebody that knows you. That's number one, so I'm big on that. as soon as I moved back here I've already started, I have quarterly lunches with some of the CIOs at different firms, I just put myself put there. Just hey I'm here, want to get together for lunch? It's that simple. number two make sure this is what you want to do, it's a lot of it, and you hear this all the time, a lot of it has to do with personalities and people. You're managing personalities and people half the time. You are not just doing the tech. If you think you're just going to be doing tech, or you're just going to be doing cool stuff, not the case. So, make sure you can, you know, make sure you know what you're getting into because it's, it's very challenging. >> Now that's great, great advice, so network, it's not, I like to say it's not who you know it's who knows you, so get out there. And then, Love it because, a lot of times I would imagine it's thankless. Right, you hear, >> Yep. >> You hear a lot of the chatter when something goes wrong, >> It's like a defense of a football team, you know, it's fine until, >> Until somebody scores. >> And someone gets sacked you know what I mean, otherwise no one cares. >> Alright Jason well thanks for the update, really appreciate you coming on theCUBE again. >> Thank you. >> Alright you're welcome, alright keep it right there buddy. We will be back with our next segment, right after this short break. (mood music)

>> Announcer: Live from Midtown Manhattan. It's the CUBE. Covering Big Data New York City 2017. Brought to you by Silicon Angle Media and its ecosystem sponsor. (electronic music) >> Hey, welcome back everyone, live here in New York. This is the CUBE here in Manhattan for Big Data NYC's three days of coverage. We're one day three, things are starting to settle in, starting to see the patterns out there. I'll say it's Big Data week here, in conjunction with Hadoop World, formerly known as Strata Conference, Strata-Hadoop, Strata-Data, soon to be Strata-AI, soon to be Strata-IOT. Big Data, Mike Maccaux who's the Global Big Data Practice Lead at Dell EMC. We've been in this world now for multiple years and, well, what a riot it's been. >> Yeah, it has. It's been really interesting as the organizations have gone from their legacy systems, they have been modernizing. And we've sort of seen Big Data 1.0 a couple years ago. Big Data 2.0 and now we're moving on sort of the what's next? >> Yeah. >> And it's interesting because the Big Data space has really lagged the application space. You talk about microservices-based applications, and deploying in the cloud and stateless things. The data technologies and the data space has not quite caught up. The technology's there, but the thinking around it, and the deployment of those, it seems to be a slower, more methodical process. And so what we're seeing in a lot of enterprises is that the ones that got in early, have built out capabilities, are now looking for that, how do we get to the next level? How do we provide self-service? How do we enable our data scientists to be more productive within the enterprise, right? If you're a startup, it's easy, right? You're somewhere in the public cloud, you're using cloud based API, it's all fine. But if you're an enterprise, with the inertia of those legacy systems and governance and controls, it's a different problem to solve for. >> Let's just face it. We'll just call a spade a spade. Total cost of ownership was out of control. Hadoop was great, but it was built for something that tried to be something else as it evolved. And that's good also, because we need to decentralize and democratize the incumbent big data warehouse stuff. But let's face it, Hadoop is not the game anymore, it's everything else. >> Right, yep. >> Around it so, we've seen that, that's a couple years old. It's about business value right now. That seems to be the big thing. The separation between the players that can deliver value for the customers. >> Matt: Yep. >> And show a little bit of headroom for future AI things, they've seen that. And have the cloud on premise play. >> Yep. >> Right now, to me, that's the call here. What do you, do you agree? >> I absolutely see it. It's funny, you talk to organizations and they say, "We're going cloud, we're doing cloud." Well what does that mean? Can you even put your data in the cloud? Are you allowed to? How are you going to manage that? How are you going to govern that? How are you going to secure that? So many organizations, once they've asked those questions, they've realized, maybe we should start with the model of cloud on premise. And figure out what works and what doesn't. How do users actually want to self serve? What do we templatize for them? And what do we give them the freedom to do themselves? >> Yeah. >> And they sort of get their sea legs with that, and then we look at sort of a hybrid cloud model. How do we be able to span on premise, off premise, whatever your public cloud is, in a seamless way? Because we don't want to end up with the same thing that we had with mainframes decades ago, where it was, IBM had the best, it was the fastest, it was the most efficient, it was the new paradigm. And then 10 years later, organizations realized they were locked in, there was different technology. The same thing's true if you go cloud native. You're sort of locked in. So how do you be cloud agnostic? >> How do you get locked in a cloud native? You mean with Amazon? >> Or any of them, right? >> Okay. >> So they all have their own APIs that are really good for doing certain things. So Google's TensorFlow happens to be very good. >> Yeah. Amazon EMR. >> But you build applications that are using those native APIS, you're sort of locked. And maybe you want to switch to something else. How do you do that? So the idea is to-- >> That's why Kubernetes is so important, right now. That's a very key workload and orchestration container-based system. >> That's right, so we believe that containerization of workloads that you can define in one place, and deploy anywhere is the path forward, right? Deploy 'em on prem, deploy 'em in a private cloud, public cloud, it doesn't matter the infrastructure. Infrastructure's irrelevant. Just like Hadoop is sort of not that important anymore. >> So let me get your reaction on this. >> Yeah. So Dell EMC, so you guys have actually been a supplier. They've been the leading supplier, and now with Dell EMC across the portfolio of everything. From Dell computers, servers and what not, to storage, EMC's run the table on that for many generations. Yeah, there's people nippin' at your heels like Pure, okay that's fine. >> Sure. It's still storage is storage. You got to store the data somewhere, so storage will always be around. Here's what I heard from a CXO. This is the pattern I hear, but I'll just summarize it in one conversation. And then you can give a reaction to it. John, my life is hell. I have application development investment plan, it's just boot up all these new developers. New dev ops guys. We're going to do open source, I got to build that out. I got that, trying to get dev ops going on. >> Yep. >> That's a huge initiative. I got the security team. I'm unbundling from my IT department, into a new, difference in a reporting to the board. And then I got all this data governance crap underneath here, and then I got IOT over the top, and I still don't know where my security holes are. >> Yep. And you want to sell me what? (Matt laughs) So that's the fear. >> That's right. >> Their plates are full. How do you guys help that scenario? You walk in, actually security's pretty much, important obviously you can see that. But how do you walk into that conversation? >> Yeah, it's sort of stop the madness, right? >> (laughs) That's right. >> And all of that matters-- >> No, but this is all critical. Every room in the house is on fire. >> It is. >> And I got to get my house in order, so your comment to me better not be hype. TensorFlow, don't give me this TensorFlow stuff. >> That's right. >> I want real deal. >> Right, I need, my guys are-- >> I love TensorFlow but, doesn't put the fire out. >> They just want spark, right? I need to speed up my-- >> John: All right, so how do you help me? >> So, what we'd do is, we want to complement and augment their existing capabilities with better ways of scaling their architecture. So let's help them containerize their big data workload so that they can deploy them anywhere. Let's help them define centralized security policies that can be defined once and enforced everywhere, so that now we have a way to automate the deployment of environments. And users can bring their own tools. They can bring their data from outside, but because we have intelligent centralized policies, we can enforce that. And so with our elastic data platform, we are doing that with partners in the industry, Blue Talent and Blue Data, they provide that capability on top of whatever the customer's infrastructure is. >> How important is it to you guys that Dell EMC are partnering. I know Michael Dell talks about it all the time, so I know it's important. But I want to hear your reaction. Down in the trenches, you're in the front lines, providing the value, pulling things together. Partnerships seem to be really important. Explain how you look at that, how you guys do your partners. You mentioned Blue Talent and Blue Data. >> That's right, well I'm in the consulting organization. So we are on the front lines. We are dealing with customers day in and day out. And they want us to help them solve their problems, not put more of our kit in their data centers, on their desktops. And so partnering is really key, and our job is to find where the problems are with our customers, and find the best tool for the best job. The right thing for the right workload. And you know what? If the customer says, "We're moving to Amazon," then Dell EMC might not sell any more compute infrastructure to that customer. They might, we might not, right? But it's our job to help them get there, and by partnering with organizations, we can help that seamless. And that strengthens the relationship, and they're going to purchase-- >> So you're saying that you will put the customer over Dell EMC? >> Well, the customer is number one to Dell EMC. Net promoter score is one of the most important metrics that we have-- >> Just want to make sure get on the record, and that's important, 'cause Amazon, and you know, we saw it in Net App. I've got to say, give Net App credit. They heard from customers early on that Amazon was important. They started building into Amazon support. So people saying, "Are you crazy?" VMware, everyone's saying, "Hey you capitulated "by going to Amazon." Turns out that that was a damn good move. >> That's right. >> For Kelsinger. >> Yep. >> Look at VM World. They're going to own the cloud service provider market as an arms dealer. >> Yep. >> I mean, you would have thought that a year ago, no way. And then when they did the deal, they said, >> We have really smart leadership in the organization. Obviously Michael is a brilliant man. And it sort of trickles on down. It's customer first, solve the customer's problems, build the relationship with them, and there will be other things that come, right? There will be other needs, other workloads. We do happen to have a private cloud solution with Virtustream. Some of these customers need that intermediary step, before they go full public, with a hosted private solution using a Virtustream. >> All right, so what's the, final question, so what's the number one thing you're working on right now with customers? What's the pattern? You got the stack rank, you're requests, your deliverables, where you spend your time. What's the top things you're working on? >> The top thing right now is scaling architectures. So getting organizations past, they've already got their first 20 use cases. They've already got lakes, they got pedabytes in there. How do we enable self service so that we can actually bring that business value back, as you mentioned. Bring that business value back by making those data scientists productive. That's number one. Number two is aligning that to overall strategy. So organizations want to monetize their data, but they don't really know what that means. And so, within a consulting practice, we help our customers define, and put a road map in place, to align that strategy to their goals, the policies, the security, the GDP, or the regulations. You have to marry the business and the technology together. You can't do either one in isolation. Or ultimately, you're not going to be efficient. >> All right, and just your take on Big Data NYC this year. What's going on in Manhattan this year? What's the big trend from your standpoint? That you could take away from this show besides it becoming a sprawl of you know, everyone just promoting their wares. I mean it's a big, hyped show that O'Reilly does, >> It is. >> But in general, what's the takeaway from the signal? >> It was good hearing from customers this year. Customer segments, I hope to see more of that in the future. Not all just vendors showing their wares. Hearing customers actually talk about the pain and the success that they've had. So the Barclay session where they went up and they talked about their entire journey. It was a packed room, standing room only. They described their journey. And I saw other banks walk up to them and say, "We're feeling the same thing." And this is a highly competitive financial services space. >> Yeah, we had Packsotta's customer on Standard Bank. They came off about their journey, and how they're wrangling automating. Automating's the big thing. Machine learning, automation, no doubt. If people aren't looking at that, they're dead in my mind. I mean, that's what I'm seeing. >> That's right. And you have to get your house in order before you can start doing the fancy gardening. >> John: Yeah. >> And organizations aspire to do the gardening, right? >> I couldn't agree more. You got to be able to drive the car, you got to know how to drive the car if you want to actually play in this game. But it's a good example, the house. Got to get the house in order. Rooms are on fire (laughs) right? Put the fires out, retrench. That's why private cloud's kicking ass right now. I'm telling you right now. Wikibon nailed it in their true private cloud survey. No other firm nailed this. They nailed it, and it went viral. And that is, private cloud is working and growing faster than some areas because the fact of the matter is, there's some bursting through the clouds, and great use cases in the cloud. But, >> Yep. >> People have to get the ops right on premise. >> Matt: That's right, yep. >> I'm not saying on premise is going to be the future. >> Not forever. >> I'm just saying that the stack and rack operational model is going cloud model. >> Yes. >> John: That's absolutely happening, that's growing. You agree? >> Absolutely, we completely, we see that pattern over and over and over again. And it's the Goldilocks problem. There's the organizations that say, "We're never going to go cloud." There's the organizations that say, "We're going to go full cloud." For big data workloads, I think there's an intermediary for the next couple years, while we figure out operating pulse. >> This evolution, what's fun about the market right now, and it's clear to me that, people who try to get a spot too early, there's too many diseconomies of scale. >> Yep. >> Let the evolution, Kubernetes looking good off the tee right now. Docker containers and containerization in general's happened. >> Yep. >> Happening, dev ops is going mainstream. >> Yep. >> So that's going to develop. While that's developing, you get your house in order, and certainly go to the cloud for bursting, and other green field opportunities. >> Sure. >> No doubt. >> But wait until everything's teed up. >> That's right, the right workload in the right place. >> I mean Amazon's got thousands of enterprises using the cloud. >> Yeah, absolutely. >> It's not like people aren't using the cloud. >> No, they're, yeah. >> It's not 100% yet. (laughs) >> And what's the workload, right? What data can you put there? Do you know what data you're putting there? How do you secure that? And how do you do that in a repeatable way. Yeah, and you think cloud's driving the big data market right now. That's what I was saying earlier. I was saying, I think that the cloud is the unsubtext of this show. >> It's enabling. I don't know if it's driving, but it's the enabling factor. It allows for that scale and speed. >> It accelerates. >> Yeah. >> It accelerates... >> That's a better word, accelerates. >> Accelerates that horizontally scalable. Mike, thanks for coming on the CUBE. Really appreciate it. More live action we're going to have some partners on with you guys. Next, stay with us. Live in Manhattan, this is the CUBE. (electronic music)

>> Covering VMWorld 2015. Brought to you by VMWare, and its ecosystem sponsors. Now your hosts, Jon Furrier, and Dave Velante. >> Okay, welcome back everyone, we are here live in Muscone North Lobby at VMWorld 2015 San Francisco, this is theCUBE, SiliconANGLE's flagship program. We go out to the events and extract the signal from the noise. I'm John Furrier the founder of SiliconANGLE, joining my cohost Dave Velante, confounder of Wikibon.com Our next guest is Pat Kelsinger, CEO of VMware. Welcome back to theCUBE. Again every year. >> Hey my pleasure. >> Six years now in a row. CUBE alum in all our CUBEs. Thanks for taking the time. I know you're super busy. Thanks for-- >> My pleasure. >> Number one for the record. Number one guest. Number one CUBE. >> That's on the record. >> Yeah I was bugging you guys yesterday, that you tell that to all your guests. >> It's definitive that you are number one. >> Now you're the only one who's outlast us. 34 minutes is a record and your handlers were so mad at us. But that's okay. Thanks for coming on. >> My pleasure. >> So keynote was great. Just everyone who didn't watch the keynote, go check out the replay. It's on siliconangle.tv, on VMware.com under vmworld. Really good speech this year. I like how you laid out the future. Really set the canvas for the next generation. So was that kind of by design? Were you thinking hey I want to paint the picture. A lot of talk about VMware in the news that recently, speeds and feeds, Vcloud, all this product stuff. On day one. What was the purpose of the speech? >> Yeah and it really was as Rob and Carl and I were sort of architecting the speeches, and this whole idea of run, build, deploy, secure, and how we were trying to carry that theme through everything that we were doing. And having me kick it off would have been very traditional, right, and we says well what would it mean if I was wrapping it up with a much more visionary and future looking speech and ask Carl to set context. And the more we tried that idea, right it really sort allowed me to I'll say go to a different altitude, and you know rise up from some of the more techy things that I love but to put it in a context that's much more industry and futuristic. So the more we played with the idea, the more we liked the idea, and given the good response from this morning, I think it worked pretty well. >> And it brings a long term perspective, versus the short term myopic you know, what we can do and stock prices, all that stuff today so congratulations. But one of the things I noticed was this asymmetric messaging around the future. And I want to ask you because I asked you three years ago, Pat is hybrid cloud the resting, full destination or is it just a way station in between public, private cloud. Oh it's the future. So hybrid cloud I've been asking all the guests. What is hybrid cloud and what is it today, because clouds are different. Every company will have a different cloud. Is hybrid cloud a product or the outcome of deployment or engineering like distributed computing? >> You know clearly from our perspective is, you know it is the culmination right, of bringing together these capabilities. And to deliver to our users the ability to treat a range of different clouds, you know from SAS providers, through what they're doing in their own private data center, and be able to treat that in a homogeneous way. That they can look at the set of resources, they can manage across those secure, across those environments right, and in many cases have increasing flexibility of how they run their workloads and you know scale them across. That is the vision of what we're off to build. That is what unified hybrid cloud is about. Now obviously underneath that right, there's a whole lot of work to get done. And from us and a product perspective, hey that means our management products got to be heterogeneous. Right it means that they networking layer, hmm there's some things I can do when it's Vcloud Air on the other end of the wire, and you know VMware stacked within the data center, and you know wasn't that cross cloud VMotion, wasn't that cool? You know to me that was my favorite demo of the show. And then in other cases, boy there's more limited things. And we are starting to demonstrate even connectivity at the core networking layer into Amazon, right and one of the work bench will show let me show you how we can extend the NSX connection all the way into an Amazon node, I mean so those pieces are part of that broader set of vision, but we want our customers to be able to say, VMware you are my best partner to deliver that complete set of cloud services that I require. >> I like how you brought in the history lesson there, brought us some early intel days, and I want to ask you this question, the futuristic question around what's possible, because really you laid out the future. And I want to bring in kind of the Moore's law analogy. I just interviewed Jerry Chen at Graylock, and he said I was talking about cloud, and VMware's role potentially in the future, whether it's openstack today or containers tomorrow, he said, "Is this technology the best "of the last generation, or the first "of the next generation?" And I want you to take that quote in context. Talk about what Moore's laws could look like in the cloud, in the future if you assume that the market's going to be you know 10x improved, 100x improvements in these areas. How does Moore's law apply to the cloud, because the cloud is an accelerant? >> Yeah, and you know the beauty of Moore's law, you know I mean if you go down to it's fundamentals, right it's not a law in the physics sense. Right it's an observation in the economic and technology sense, right, this doubling every two years. And the power of the cloud though, is it allows you to benefit from both the scale, right you know the performant capabilities, as well as the economics right, because it's saying you know you can scale out, as well as scale up in each processor capacity. And that really is the magic of the cloud, and you're able to do that dynamically. And essentially I can rent the biggest computer in the world now I mean for ten bucks I can rent the largest supercomputer that's ever been built. It might be only for you know a few milliseconds, right but the ability to aggregate essentially an unlimited scale resource for my application you know is just fabulous. So you really benefit from Moore's law both economically as well as the scale. Each node gets bigger and faster as well. And that ability right is why every cloud is built on x86 is because you see this engine of innovation that has not stopped. >> So do you see creativity being unleashed on that, because I mean I know there's all these different themes of them over the years of unleash your creativity, but unleashing now think about that concept of unlimited as you were pointing out. What are some of the things that you see, and you guys on the VMware team see around what creatively is going to get done in that new world? >> Yeah and you know clearly some of the things that we described here as well, I mean some of the things with respect to security. Right you know these are very much game changing, and you know people as they build more and more of their mission critical environments, you have to address it. You know enabling some of these forward looking analytics environment that we described, and very much the proactive future that we described that you know, I mean you know it's not like machine learning and some of these AI algorithms. I mean these are 30 year kinds of investigations, and now you've just got this enormous compute resource that I can even take some mediocre algorithms with extraordinary amounts of data, and start bringing some incredible insights that predict behavior and opportunity. Right I mean those are exciting capabilities. If you start going into different domains as well, where all of a sudden you're, I mean you can ask almost any question, and get an answer very quickly to those when you've put your services and capabilities into the cloud. So it's so many ways, you know we're just creating you know this next phase of innovation that, as we described the proactive phase of the internet. >> You said recently, "We've committed ourselves "to the heterogeneous management strategy, "which allows us to be managing "in a multicloud environment both on and off premise, "including AWS and Microsoft Azure." Two questions. How much of AWS and Microsoft Azure are you managing today, and do you expect to be managing in the future? Let me start there. >> Yeah, and you know today we have a small amount that is being managed by a lot of customers. Right and you know it's interesting because almost every customer's asking, right but it's putting those CMP layers in, those cloud management platforms layer using those in the day and many cases it's I want to do a little bit, so I know that it works. Right I want to know that the proof point is there, that I can use it in that capacity. But what we're finding for customers is okay I need the promise of where I might go, but I got so much work to do just to operationalize my own private cloud environment that the reality of how much they're really doing in that way is fairly modest. Right now we're not bothered by that. In the sense that you know they are going through this fundamental transformative phase, and most of the private cloud automation for our management stack today is in this phase where they are going from ITIL, CMDB, trouble ticket dominated environments to self-service automated provisioning catalog environments. And they are so deep into that transition that taking advantage of some of the heterogeneous cloud things is sort of number four on their list and they haven't clicked off number one two and three yet. But that promise is definitely there, and we're seeing an increasing amount of customers taking advantage of it. >> So the second part of my question, and I want you to help me square a circle. So we've heard Joe Tucci in the past talk about the advantages that some of the big hyperscale guys have in homogeneity, and part of VMware strategy over the years has really been to get VMware out into the cloud service provider space. At the same time we live in this heterogeneous world, so how can you achieve that vision, with all that heterogeneity? What is the underlying strategy and technology that enables you to do that? >> Yeah in different layers of the stack, you need to do different things. And for instance at the lowest layer, cross cloud VMotion, that's going to be homogeneous for quite a while, right? (laughs) Just is, right and there's lots of things in terms of copying page tables, synchronizing page tables. Fail forward, fail back environments. >> You've got your best people working on it, but. >> Yeah. >> It's not trivial. >> And yeah right and that kind of stuff. But at higher levels of the stack, depositing work loads, observing work loads, getting telemetry on work loads, okay there you can be highly heterogeneous, so really I'd say the higher you are in the stack, the more heterogeneous you can be. Right the lower you go in stack, you know to deliver a value proposition, right you know it's exciting the customers, the more homogeneous you tend to be. And obviously technologies tend to sediment down over time. So our commitment is you know, a broader and broader set of cloud capabilities across other party clouds, and of course we want to enable as many of our partner clouds as well, and those technologies. I mean one of my most exciting products NSX, right you know one of the fastest growing segments, is into service providers who are running that as part of their cloud as well. So that's going to build some of those hybrid networking capabilities into non-VMware hosted cloud environments as well. >> You talked in your keynote about your Cinderella career. Is VMware your glass slipper? >> Is it my-- >> Is it your glass slipper? (all laugh) >> Well you know I'm loving what I'm doing right now. It's a great place to be in the industry. I don't expect to go anywhere else, so you know at this point in time I'd say yep sure is. >> Well so you were asked yesterday on CNBC, you know they want to know about how you touch consumers, and you gave some very good examples of ways that you power companies that power consumers. You also gave some internet of things, I would call internet of things examples, you said, "There are 7,200 objects orbiting the earth." And IT in your bloodstream were two, sort of two examples that you gave, so you upleveled your keynote this morning. Wondered if you could talk about VMware's role in powering things like the internet of things, and things like consumer technologies. >> Yeah you know one of the, maybe my favorite examples right now on some of the internet of things that we're doing, one is a medical devices. You know heart monitors, you know being able to pain medication injection devices and so on. It's ends, you know the next generation of those is going to be managed through a cell phone. Right you know so you'll be able to go to your cell phone, you click oh, my pacemaker kicked me three times last night, right kind of things. But those devices need to be managed and secured. So how's the next generation going to be done? The leveraging, air watch and our horizon suite. We're going to be doing that kind of capability. Right and those things are just, you know I mean we're talking about people's lives, and changing the lives, but then it's also about the telemetry that goes on the other end. You know my wife has a heart monitor in right now. Just, and you how painful it is to get access to that data? Right you know. >> It's my heart. >> Yeah and you know why is it so hard. It's going to be hosted in the cloud, and we're building those clouds for those environments and to me, some of those applications, you know it's not just about going to an IT guy and let me tell you how you can save a bunch of money. You know let me go to that IT guy and say let's go partner into your line of business and say how can we change your business? Right and that's really where I try to end this morning's speech is very much, right that is the role that everybody at VMworld gets to play. You're the smartest tech guys. Go be the evangelists, the entrepreneurs, inside of your business. Because you are the person who's going to enable them to take advantage of these core trends to change their business. >> Yeah one thing on that point is that people looking at, we talked to some, a lot of customers and CIOs, and they're looking at the different vendors. Oracle, you know they're looking at VMware, wherever, IBM, HP and everyone else. But the trend that we're seeing is kind of pivoting off the appliance and engineered systems concept and end to end, you mentioned homogeneity and heterogeneous at the top of the stack. They want an end to end solution. They want it to work so it can kind of outcomes you described. In order to have that they need developers, and you guys have an ecosystem that has a big focus on dev ops. So very geeky company, a lot of engineering at VMware. A lot of people know what dev ops is. Is that servicing up at the top of the senior management team where dev ops is top priority? The API-ification, these kinds of things. Can you share some of the mindset and some of the conversations you're having at the senior level with dev ops and developers. >> Yeah I find the conversation, by the way I'd be very interested in your guys' perspective on this. You know with one of the recent dev ops conferences recently that we had a team go and attend, and we're presenting some of our products and value propositions there, and a survey was done of how many of those were IT folks versus how many of those were developers. And what was the answer? >> Ops dev. >> It was almost all IT folk. >> It's, yeah. >> Operations guys. >> Right because do developers really want to carry pagers at midnight? Right you know it's. You know, no. Right you know and there's this funny-- >> No they're too busy writing code. >> Exactly, right. >> They write code at night. >> And so there's this aspect of hey, they want programmable infrastructure, right because they don't want some long, trouble ticket kind of model to go get infrastructure, so they want API access that's automated, self provisioned and so on. But do they really want to take over infrastructure operations? And that the answer to that is no freakin' way. >> Yeah, no way. >> At that point of way. >> Because they you know, so it's very much they don't want to be bottlenecked right, they want to be enabled by infrastructure right for it. And so a lot of this dev ops is how do we bring those two worlds together so the developers can go do what they want to do, right develop, innovate, and at the pace of that that they are never limited by any of the infrastructure deployment or lifecycle management capacities. So as we're having those conversations, it's very much how can we present more and more API access to a more, and more automated set of our products. And that's why we've embraced openstack. That's why we've embraced containers. It's why we've done the cloud foundry. Right it's why we continue to have our own traditional vsim interfaces that we've supported forever. We're just going to give them more API surface area than any other guy on the planet, and the next thing that comes up, right if the Volante development environment emerges, hey we're going to support that. If they get more than 10 developers on it, we'll be there. >> Right, CrowdChat. >> You support CrowdChat APIs, so I got to ask, the development's a good point, I love that point, because IT is where your wheelhouse is. Certainly in the ops side of VMware's install base. But now you bring up the developer community, those guys have embraced containers. That's changed the game a lot, because now you can abstract away the complexity you guys can provide, and kind of harden that top. So how do you see that market? So two questions. Containers, comment on the containers. We asked that last year. And where's the line on the hardened top? Where's the line where developers, hey don't look here you're cool, programmable interface whatever you want to call it, infrastructurous code, where's the line on the stack? And then develop this new developer ecosystem that's developing? >> And I think as I said last year when I was on the CUBE that you know we see the container trend as a more significant, a long term one even than openstack. Right and I think it really does become the biggest issue in the future for developers because it's an application value proposition right and at that level, how can I make application development, deployment, lifecycle management in a more effective and productive way. And software does eat the world, and everybody needs to become more productive in their application experience. And then the hardened top question. You know it's a great question because developers, do they want to reach, I mean do they want to go worry about infrastructure? No they don't, but they don't want to be hindered by infrastructure right at that level, so the question is can we present in a light way, open way that they can take care and not worry about oh how do I get enough storage for this. How do I secure that network, how do I connect to this other thing, what is my directory service. We're trying to present an infrastructure that gives them the surface area that they require, so that they don't need to go down the stack. Because they're not going down the stack because they want to but because there isn't a flexible, easy way for them to get there another way. >> To them it's just like smashing rocks, I mean they don't want to do that. They want to program some code. >> That's right you know. They want application code, interface code, you know things that create business value. So our job is to present them a capability that makes those things easy. And that's what the Photon platform announcement was all about, making it easy. Making it easy for traditional IT. >> NSX is playing a role there, too, big time. >> Oh yeah absolutely. NSX you know we're doing the bindings in the storage layers. We're absolutely bundling in the right way so that IT gets visibility into that environment so they can manage and secure it, you know deploy it, but the developers get the flexible interfaces that they like as well and really, sort of, if you remember the old Oklahoma movie, can the cowboys and the farmers be friends? Right you know and that's our objective is to bring those two worlds together. >> So I got to bring up the cloud native question, because we're seeing this transition now to, Dave and I were talking in theCUBE on the intro here about the old mini computer trend and how that spawned a whole level, you know you had Sun, HP, back, and Intel writing chips and this x86 servers. The whole SAP, workflow, ERP systems, manufacturing got innovated, all this new automation happened. So we're seeing cloud native take on a similar role there where you're seeing people at the services level, the big consulting firms want to deploy more apps fast. And you mentioned the apps are taking over Hollywood. So where do you see the pressure point for the services-- >> Bird Man or Angry Bird, I don't know. >> So that trend's happening right now. So what's the pressure, what's holding back that explosion of new services that are going to roll out, consulting services, big firms rolling out apps for banks and every vertical, as you said they're being disrupted. What in the infrastructure is holding back that? >> You know I think that, and part of the reason we're so excited about some of the Photon announcements in that sense is because it is too hard and too slow today. You know at the, it's heavy, complicated. Right the IT processes aren't nimble, and you know self service environments are minimally deployed. Right you got the application guys over here, hey they're innovating at pace, and these scale outs, container oriented microservices architectures that are beginning to, they're not scalable, they're not manageable, they're not secure. Right so the problems are so obvious on both sides of it. Right but it's these worlds are coming together, some of the early embodiments you know of the new applications et cetera are so thrilling that people are really are moving into the space. So the fundamental limiters right we think are, you know an agile, light weight infrastructure with the right set of northbounds APIs that give programmatic access to the infrastructure. And on the other end is a developer environment that can take advantage of those, that's highly productive with the level of software skills. I think ultimately you know on that side of things, you're going to be developing, you're going to be limited by software development capacity. And that's what we are finding when we meet, and particular Pivotal meets with the largest companies in the world right their biggest issue is, do I have the software development skills to do that? Can I be productive at that level? You know the app is now more important than the color and the warrantee on the car. You know that's the shift that's occurring. >> Pat I want to ask you a couple public policy questions. I don't want to get into politics, but as a CEO in Silicon Valley, you know you hear folks like Donald Trump sort of saying well we should really clamp down, he goes after Zuckerberg for example. >> Build that wall. >> Right build a wall. But he goes after Zuckerberg in particular. I'm talking about H1b visas so. What's your take I mean presumably, you want more talent, we educate talent, what do you say as a CEO of a public company regarding educating and then keeping folks here? >> I think it's wonderful that the world wants to export our top talent, their top talent, to the United States right. And almost-- >> Right, thank you. >> I mean please. >> Where's your best. >> Absolutely. >> And smartest people. >> And the fact that we want to close our doors to the most talented human beings on the planet that want to come and work, develop, create the next generation of startups in our, right in our communities and on our soil, right to me that's a stupid policy. >> Yeah great, and then the second question. You mentioned self driving cars. I wanted to ask you about, you know for decades, millennia, we've seen machines replace humans. And we're seeing now that GDP grows, you know income grows, but the average, median income has dropped from $55,000 down to say $50,000. From '99 til today. Yet you guys and I'll be interested in you, too John. You live out in Silicon Valley. And it's like okay well there's always opportunities. Because you guys live in a virtual reality field, and you're positive thinkers right. So are you concerned as again a CEO of a public company, and somebody who's pretty prominent, about that effect and what's the answer? Is it more education, and what can companies like VMware do to support that? Not that trend, but to reverse that trend? >> You know at the heart you know you mentioned education, to me that's so right, you know so foundational at that level and increasing you know STEM education, beginning at the earliest ages, you know we need more software programmers. We need more women in software programming in particular. I mean we have almost half the population is excluded from that potential right today by the very low entry rates into those areas. We got to fix those issues. The quality of U.S. education at the secondary level, you know at the collegiate and university level's unmatched on the planet, right. You know at the high school and junior high level it's pretty weak on a world scale. Those things are fundamental, got to be fixed in that respect. I also believe that you know many of these technology shifts are actually going to enable a, let's say a renaissance of some of the communities that some of the areas that have been not available for American workers and this whole idea of, I'll say just briefly mention in my speech this morning, the idea of customized, automated manufacturing. Well as that emerges you know now, right if I can have highly automated, customized manufacturing, you know 3D printing, et cetera that occurs, boy you know I believe we will see a resurgence of some of the manufacturing sectors you know back onto mature market, to soils, to back onto American soil as well. Because it isn't just going to be a cost arbitrage question anymore to find the lowest cost labor on the planet. Transportation costs become you know, essentially a barrier to export. >> And you're unlocking like, see big data as an example. You're unlocking new jobs around data analysis, and development. >> Right. >> You know that's very much what we see as one of the huge opportunities associated with internet connectivity in a global basis, whether it's health care, education, or unlocking new jobs-- >> Internet of things. >> I mean machines like airplanes, throwing off data, they're going to need people to analyze that. So I got to ask the question along with Dave, is that you know when I was talking with some young college kids and my wife and I talked to our two youngest, who are, one's in eighth grade, and one's a freshman in high school, around how to think about technologies. Not just oh you need to be computer science and have two daughters, so obviously we're talking to them about hey don't be bullied out of computer science. If you love technology there's plenty of things. So what's your take on that? What's your view on different opportunities for young people? Women, boys, girls. All across the board. It used to be just programming, electrical engineering, computer science. And now it's kind of like the two pillars. But now what new opportunities do you see to a young physics major, or someone in high school who just loves technology? Because they're all connected. They're all on Instagram, they're doing their thing. >> Uh-huh. >> They're breathing technology, they're natives. >> Yeah. >> So what academic, what things might inspire young people? >> Yeah I think some of-- (coughs) Excuse me. You know some of it is taking down some of those, I'll say false barriers or perceptions as well, and John Hennessy, president of Stanford, you know he and I have a great relationship, and Stanford now is almost 50/50 in the incoming class for women into computer science. I mean obviously they put huge emphasis on that, and so they said you know getting away from first player shooter games as the first touchpoint of technology and into much more social experiences has changed the perception, right, of you know females into that sector. Excuse me. You know I've still got two more days of VMWorld to go. I need a voice. >> The CUBE is tiring. >> We might outlast you this time. You beat us last time, 34 minutes that was a record. >> I think it was longer. >> It was more like 50 minutes. >> Yeah, right at that-- >> But there's a lot of >> opportunities to your point. I mean there's not just programming. There's a lot of interdisciplinary stuff now. >> Yeah and that was exactly the next point I was going to make. Because computer science and programming ends up being cool in every aspect. Right you know whether you're in economics. Hey you know I mean you got to build models. Hey if you're in the medical field. Hey there's an increasing amount of telemetry, big data, other things coming into it. Every field is touching on it, and to me that cross disciplinary view of the impact of technology, into every segment and every interest, becomes more and more powerful going forward. And I think some of those are the ways that we can actually change the perception even right that everybody, it's sort of like, imagine if you would go to school, and you would say our school does not teach math. I mean would you send your kid to that school? Of course not. >> Only if they had programming on top, instead of math. >> Right but... And they say, but you know your daughter, she wants to be a psychologist. But you're not going to teach her math? You know it's a basic life skill. She got to learn math. That is the essential of technology and computer science going forward. It is a basic life skill that we have to teach everybody, and have to participate in it regardless of what field that may pursue. >> So we're getting crunched on time here. I want to ask you my final question. Dave probably may have a final, final question. Seems to be the new thing going on here at the CUBE. This year at Vmworld, what do you think will happen this week when you look back down the road? You've got a great career here. Looking great with VMware, we love working with you on the CUBE here and the keynotes. What about this year is so transitional for VMware? Is it the fact that now we have full dev ops, now the cloud is mainstream? Is it the fact that the company's transforming itself into a whole, another power. Is it because the ecosystem, all of the above? What's your take on this year's kind of inflection point for VMware? >> Yeah I think you know obviously at the front of the list for us is this whole unified hybrid cloud. And really getting people to view, because you know three years ago, cloud was ooh I'm an enterprise customer. Now it's really how can I take advantage of these resources that will be heterogeneous across multiple environments and the value proposition that we can be and everybody needs to be doing that. So that's one of the takeaways. You know second is the engagement into the developer community, the Photon announcements are probably the most second, the second most important shift to thinking that we've delivered here. Maybe the third is you know the thing that I'm always thrilled about when I show up at VMworld is the ecosystem. You know friends and foe alike here show up to talk about how they're collaborating together to bring more from the things that we do, and that's what's just so energizing about it. When you go around the show floor it's just overwhelming. >> And you've got investors too after the VCs. Top tier VCs, NEA's here. Graylock, XL, all of them are here. >> Well a lot of startups coming out of the woodworks, too. >> Oh yeah. >> They launch at VMworld. >> Absolutely. >> You know it's just wonderful that way, and this ecosystem effect just couldn't be more powerful, and alive and well than it is here at the show this year. >> And we're six years here, we love watching the transformation. We've seen everyone. Palmer has produced that first slide that was there and now here so great job. >> Yeah and thank you for expanding our space this year. That's really great. >> Hey you know what. >> Us going north. >> You know. >> You said you were in a corner of Moscone North. I mean I said this is the CUBE. (all laugh) I think you mispositioned that. >> We were in the lobby, the big lobby of Moscone North. >> Half the lobby. >> We have the lobby. >> Thanks for everything, we appreciate six years. And great to see you every year, and thanks for taking the time out of your busy schedule to share your insight, >> Oh thank you I love it. and the data, and your vision, and product news. Thanks so much. >> Thank you. >> Pat Kelsinger here live inside theCUBE, here in San Francisco, Moscone North lobby. We got the big lobby here, and of course it's Vmworld 2015. I'm John Furrier with Dave Velante. We'll be right back. (light rock music)