(upbeat music) >> Okay, welcome back to theCUBES's coverage of Dockercon 2021. I'm John Furrier, your host of theCUBE. We have Justin Cormack, CTO of Docker. Was also involved in the CNCF technical oversight and variety of other technical activities. Justin, great to see you. Thanks for coming on theCUBE Virtual this year, again, twice in a row and maybe next year will be in person but certainly hybrid, great to see you. >> Yeah, great to see you too. Yeah, in person would be nice one of these days, yes. >> Yeah, when we get real life back. It's almost there, I can feel it, but there's so much activity. One of the things that we've been talking about, certainly in theCUBE and even here at DockerCon, same story. The pandemic really hasn't truly impacted developer community, because most of the people have been working remotely and virtually for many, many decades. And if you think about just in the past 10 years, all the innovation in cloud has come from virtual teams, open-source softwares, always had good kind of governance and a democratization of kind of how it becomes built. So not a bit's been skipped during the pandemic. In fact, if anything supply chain of software development has increased. So- >> Yeah, I think that it's definitely true that open-source was really the place that pioneered remote working. And a lot of the work methods the people worked out to do open-source as in communication and things like that, were things that people have adopted. It's a slightly different community. I'd say open-source projects like meetings less than some other organizations, but there was definitely that pioneering thing. And a lot of the companies that started off remote first, were in open-source software, and they started off for those reasons as well because developers were already working like that, and they could just hire them and they could continue to work like that. >> Yeah, one of the upsides of all this is that people won't tolerate even zoom or in person meetings that just go on, 15, 30 minutes good call. Why do we have a meeting? What's the purpose? (faintly speaking) the way to go. Let's get into the developer community. One of the things I love about DockerCon this year 2021 is the envelopes being pushed again almost to another level, it's almost a new level, this next level of containers is bringing more innovation to the table and productivity and simplicity. Some of the same messages last year but now more than ever, stuff's going on. What are you hearing directly from the community? You talk to a lot of the developers out of the millions of developers in the Docker ecosystem. What are they saying now in 2021? What's going on in their mind? >> Yeah, I think it's an area... More and more people are using Docker, and they're using it every day and it's a change that's been going on, obviously for a while, but it begins to sort of, as it spreads, the kind of developers using Docker, so different from... When I started at Docker, coming up for six years ago, it was a very bleeding edge type thing for early adopters. Now it's everywhere, millions and millions of ordinary developers are using Docker every day. And the kinds of things that's telling us is, well, some of this stuff that we thought, well, five years ago was an amazing breakthrough and simplicity. Now that's on its own still too hard. One of the things I mentioned in my keynote was that, we're talking to developers who just primarily have been working windows all their life but more and more applications being shipped on Linux. And they using Linux containers, but they find Docker files really hard because they have really, Linux shell scrapes and not a windows developer doesn't know how to use a Linux shell script. And it's bringing it down to that next level of use where you can adopt these things more easily, the pitched to the kind of level of developer who is just thinking about their language, their APIs and they don't want to have to learn kind of lots of new things to do Docker. They'll learn some, but they really wanted to kind of integrate better into the environments they work in and help them more. We've been working on a lot of detailed instructions about like how to use Docker better with JavaScript and Python, because people have told us, be specific about these things, tell us exactly how I do make things work well with the way I'm doing things now. >> What is the big upside for containers for the folks watching? And last year, one of the most popular sessions was the one-on-one Peter McKay did, which was fascinating, packed with people. And the adoption of containers is going everywhere and enabling a lot of growth. What's the main message to these new developers that are coming on board to ecosystem. >> I think what's happening is that people are gradually, very slowly starting to think about containers in a different way. When we started, the question everyone kept asking was about containers and VMS, what's the difference? That question didn't really, kind of really address what the big fundamental changes that containers made to how people work was. I'd like to think about it in terms of the physical shipping containers, like people are concerned about like, can you escape from the box? Can I get out of a container? These kinds of questions. This is not really the important question about containers is kind of escape from the box. The question is, what does it enable you to build? The shipping container let us build the supply chains that let people build products and factories and things that would never have been possible without the ability to actually just ship things in a routine and predictable and reliable and secure way, getting that content and the things that come in the container and you actually work more effectively. And, so I think that now we're talking about like what's the effect of containers on the industry as a whole? What are the things that we can learn about repeatability and documentation and metadata and reliability, that we kind of talked about a little bit before, but these are becoming the important use cases for containers. Containers are really about, they're not about that kind of security and escape piece, there're about the content, the supply chain and your actual process of working. >> What do you, first of all, great call out on the security piece. I want to get that in a second. I think that's a killer one. You've mentioned supply chain, can you define software supply chain, and is that where the automation value comes in? Because a lot of people are talking about automation is improving the developer experience. So can you clarify quickly, what do you mean by the software supply chain? And is that where automation comes in? Am I getting that right? >> Yeah, so the software supply chain is really that process by which you get components of software to build your applications. Around 99% of companies are using open-source software to build applications. And the vast majority of the pieces of any modern application art consists mainly of open-source software and some tries source software, and some software that people are writing themselves. But you've got to get these components in, you've got to make sure that they're updated and scanned and they're reliable. And that's the software supply chain is that process for bringing in components that you're using to build your applications. And so, the way automation comes in, is just because there's so much of the software dealing with it manually is just difficult, and it's an ongoing process of build and test and CI and all those scanning and all those processes. And I think as software developers, we fundamentally know that the most valuable things are the things that we automate. They're the things that we do all the time and they're important. And that a lot of building a software is about building repeatable processes, rather than just doing things one by one, because we know that we have to keep updating software, we have to keep fixing bags, we have to keep improving software. And so you've got to be able to keep doing these things, and automation is what helps us do that. >> I was talking to Dana Lawson the VP of Engineering at GitHub, and she and I were chatting about this one topic. I want to get your thoughts on it, because she was definitely of the camp of automation helps with productivity. No doubt, check, double check there. The question I have for you is how do you see the impact on say the developer experience and innovation specifically? Because, okay, I can see the productivity, okay, something happens a bunch of times automated. Then you start thinking about supply chain, then you thought about developer experience and ultimately with Kubernetes around the corner, with the relationship with containers, you can see the cloud-native benefits from an innovation standpoint. Can you share your thoughts on the automation impact to experience for the developer and the innovation strategies they need? >> Well, I think that one of the ways we're trying to think about everything we do at Docker is that we should be helping build processes rather than helping you do something once, because, if you do something three times, you want to automate it, but what if the first time you did it, that could also build that automated process. And if it was, why isn't it as easy to make something automated as it is to do it once? There's no real reason why it shouldn't be. And I think that kind of... I was having a conversation with someone the other day about how they would... They had kind of reversed their thinking and they found that often it was easier to start with automation and harder to do things manually. And that's a kind of real reversal of that kind of role between automation and doing stuff run, so, and it's not how we think about it, but I think it's really interesting to think about that kind of thing, and how could we make automation really, really simple. >> Well, that's a great example when you have that kind of environment, and certainly the psychology is better to have automation but if everyone's saying it's hard to do manual, that means they're at some sort of scale, right? So scale matters, right? So as you start getting the SRE vibes going, and you start getting Cloud Scale in cloud-native apps, that's going to be cool. Now, the question I want to ask you, because while the other thing that's happening is more people are coming into open-source than ever before, not just young developers, but also end users. Not like the hardcore-end users, looking like classic enterprises are coming in. So as more developers come in and increase over the year, what does that mean for the experience for developers? Now you have, does that change it? How do you view that? Because as more developers come in, you have institutional knowledge, you have scale, you have learnings, what's your thoughts on on the impact as the population of developers increase? How does Docker view that? >> Yeah, now, I think it's really interesting trend. It's been very visible in CNCF for the last few years. We've been seeing a lot more active end-user, company's doing open-source. Spotify has been one of the examples with a backstage project they brought into CNCF and other areas where they work. And I think it's part of this growing trend that's really important to Docker, Docker is a bottom up technology adoption company. Developers are using Docker because it works for them and they love it. And developers are doing open-source in their companies because open-source works for them and they love it. And it works for their business as well. And whereas historically like the the model was, you would buy kind of large enterprise products, with big procurement deals that were often not what the developers wanted, but now you're getting developers saying, what we want to do is adopt these open-source projects, because we know how they work, we already understand that we know how to integrate them better into our processes. And I think it's that developer lad demand that's really important, and it's the kind of integration that developers want to do, the kind of products that they want to work with, because they understand them and love them, and they had targeted at developers and that's incredibly important. And I think that's very much where Docker's focused and we really want to... Open-source is of the core of everything we've always done. We've built with the open-source community, and we've kind of come from that kind of environment. And we built things that we love as developers and that other developers love. >> Talk about your thoughts on security. Obviously it's always built in from the beginning, Shift-Left is the ethos, day two operations, AI apps, whatever people want to call that. Post-deployment mode, security has to be at the center of this, containers can be a great solution and give some great flexibility for developers. Can you talk about your view and Docker view on the security posture and situation? >> Yeah, I think Shift-Left is incredibly important because just doing things late, everyone knows is the wrong thing from the point of view of productivity. But I think Shift-Left can just mean, ask the developers to do everything, which is really a bit too much. I think that sometimes things need to be shifted even further left than people have actually thought. So like, why are you expecting developers to scan components to see if they're allowed to use? If they should be using them or they should be updated, why hasn't that happened before the developer even gets there? I think there's a, I sorted my keynote about this whole piece, about trusted content. And it's really important that we really shift that even further left, so it's long before it gets to the developer, those things that are happening. Security, it's a huge area, of course, but it's very much, we need to help developers because security is non-obvious. I think the more you understand about security, the more you understand that it doesn't come naturally to people and they need to be helped with it, and they need to learn a lot about things in a way to, I found myself that, learning how to think like an attacker is a really important way of thinking about how to secure softwares, like what what would they do rather than just thinking about the normal kind of, oh, this works in the (faintly speaking) What happens if things go wrong? That you have to think about as well. So there's a lot of work to do to educate and help and build tools that help developers there. And it's been really good working with Snyk, cause they're a very developer focused security company, that's why we chose to work with them. Whereas historically, security companies have been very oriented towards kind of the operator side of it, not the development side, not the developer experience. And the other piece is really around supply chain security. That's just kind of a new security area. And it's very important from the container point of view, because one of the things containers let you do is really control the components that you're using to build applications and manage them better. And so we can really build tooling that helps you manage, that helps you understand what's in a container, helps you understand where it came from, how it was built and automate those processes and sign and authenticate them as well. And we've been working with CNCF on Nature V2, which is for signing revamp of the container signing process, because people really want to know who originated this container? Where did it come from? What did they say is in it? There's a lot of work about build up materials and composition analysis and all those things that you need to know about. What's in a container, and the... >> Everyone wants to know what's in a container. If you've got a Kubernetes cluster for instance, that's all highly secure and in comes a container, how do you know what the... There's no perimeter, right? So again, as you said, thinking like an attack vector there, you got to understand that, this is where the action is, right? This is where a lot of work's being done on this idea of always on security. You don't know when the container's coming in. during the run stage, you're running a business now, it's not just build and share, your running infrastructure. >> Absolutely, you really want full control about everything that goes into it, and you want to know where everything that you're running in production came from, and you pretty tired of this, and that's your end to end supply chain. It's everything from developer inputs through the build process and grow to production. And in production, understanding whether it needs to be updated and whether there's new discover vulnerabilities and whether it's being attacked and how that relates back to what came into it in the first place. >> Lot more intelligence, lot more monitoring. You guys are enabling all that I know it's cool. Great stuff. Hey, I want to get your thoughts on just what got you here on the calendar, looking at the DockerCon '21 event, and we're having a fun time here with, we're on theCUBE track, get the keynote track. But if you look at the sessions that's going on, you got, and I'll get your comment on this, cause it's really interesting how it's cleverly laid out this is. You've got the classic run share build and then you've got a track called accelerate, interesting metadata around these labels. Take us through, because this basically shows the maturation of containers. We already talked about the relationship, somewhat with Kubernetes, everyone kind of sees that direction clearly, but you got acceleration, which is a key new track, but run, share, build, what's your reaction to that? Share your observations of what the layout of those names and what it means to an enterprise and people building. >> Yeah, (faintly speaking) has been Docker's kind of motto for a long time. It kind of encapsulates that kind of process of like, the developer building application, the collaborative piece that's really important about sharing content in containers and then obviously putting into production because that's the aim. But, accelerate is incredibly important too. Developers are just being asked to do a lot. Everything is software, there's a lot of software, and a lot of software has to be created and we've got to make it easier to do this. And that kind of getting quickly from idea to business outcomes and results is what modern software teams are really driving at. And, I think we've really been focused this last year on what the team needs to succeed, and especially, small focused teams delivering business value. It's how we're structured internally as well and is how our customers, to a large extent are structured. And there's that kind of focus on accelerating those business outcomes and the feedback loops from your ideas to what the feedback that your customers give you at helping you understand that it's really important. >> Talk about final question for you in terms of the topic here, cloud, hybrid cloud, multicloud, this is, put multicloud asides more hype. Everyone has multiple clouds, but it speaks to the general distributed computing architecture when you talk about public cloud and on-premises cloud operations. So modern developers looking at that as, okay, distributed environment, edge, whatever you're going to call it. What's your view of Docker as it goes forward for the folks watching, who have experience with Docker, loved the vibe, loved the open-source, but now I've got to start thinking about putting the containers everywhere. What's the Docker pitch, so to speak, with a tech story that they should walk away with from you? What's the story, what's the pitch? >> Yeah, so containers everywhere has been a sort of emerging trend for a while, the last year or so. The whole Kubernetes at the edge thing has really exploded with people experimenting with lots and lots of different architectures for different kinds of environments at the edge. What's totally clear is that people want to be able to update software really easily at the edge the way you can in the cloud. We can't have the sort of, there's no point in shipping a modern piece of manufacturing equipment that you can't update the software on, because the software is how it works, more and more equipment is becoming very general purpose, people making general purpose robots, general purpose factories, general purpose everything which need to be specialized into the application they're going to run that week. And also people are getting more and more feedback and data and feedback from the data. So if you're building something that runs on a farm, you're getting permanent feedback about how well it's doing and how well the crops are growing was coming back. And so everywhere you've got this, we need to update. And everywhere you need to update, you want containers because containers are the simple reliable way to update software. >> I know you talked about CNCF and your role there. Also the CTO of Docker, I have to ask cause we were just covered Coop con and cloud-native con just last month and this month. And it's clear that Kubernetes is becoming boringly good in a way that's good to be boring, right? It means it's working. And it's becoming more cloud-native con than Coop-con. That has been kind of editorial observation, which speaks to what we feel is a trend towards more cloud-native discussions, less about Kubernetes. So, it's still Kubernetes stuff going on, don't get me wrong, just saying it's not as controversial in the sense that people kind of clearly understand why that's important, and all the discussions now seem to be on cloud-native modern developer workflows. What's your reaction to that? Do you agree, if not, what's your take? >> Yeah, I think that's definitely true. Kubernetes is definitely much more boring. Everyone is using it. They're using it in production now vastly more than they were a few years ago, when it was just experiment, experiment, experiment, now it's production scale out. The ecosystem in CNCF is kind of huge. There's so many little bits that have to be filled in storage and networking and all that. So there's actually a lot of pieces that are around Kubernetes, but, there's definitely more of a focus coming on the developer experience there. Compared to DockerCon, the audience at Coop Con is incarnated kind of still much more operator focused rather than developer focused. And it's very nice coming to DockerCon, just to feel like being amongst that developer community, Coop Con still has a way to gauge to have more of a real developer audience, but the project is starting to pair with a more developer focused kind of aim or things like backstage from Spotify is a really interesting one where it's about operations, but it's a developer portal focused things. So, I think it's happening, and there's a lot more talk about that. There's a whole bunch of infrastructure, there's a lot more security projects in CNCF than they were before. And we're doing a lot of work on supply chain security and CNCF just released a white paper on that few days ago. So there's a lot of work there that touches on developer needs. I still think that audience (faintly speaking) that much different from DockerCon which is I think 80% developers and maybe 10% infrastructure rather than the other way round. >> I think if you're going to get operators it can be SRE/platformleads. The platform leads are definitely inside DockerCon now than they've ever been before from my observation. So, but that speaks to the sign of the times. Most development teams have an SRE in the team, not an SRE team. They're just starting to see much more integration amongst the kind of a threaded or threaded teams or whatnot. So... >> Yeah. (faintly speaking) Operate your apps is the model. And I think that it's going to lead to more and more crossover between these communities. It's what DevOps was supposed to be about, somehow got diverted into building DevOps teams instead of working together, but we'll get there. >> It's clear from my standpoint, at least from reporting here is that, from the DockerCon and community at large, cloud-native community, having end-to-end work-load visibility on developer test run, everything seems to be the consensus, without a doubt. And then having multiple teams, and then having some platform, have some flexing people moving between teams for the most part, but built insecurity, built in SRE, built in DevOps, DevSecOps, all the way from end-to-end. >> Absolutely, we know that that's what does work best, it's where most organizations are heading at different speeds, because it's very different from the traditional architecture. It takes time to get there, but that's the model that has come out of microservices that really containers enabled and allow that model to happen. And it's the team architecture of containers. >> Hey, monolithic applications have monolithic organizations, microservices have microservices teams. Justin, great to have you on theCUBE for this conversation. If folks watching this interview, check out Justin's keynote, came from the main stage, great stuff. Justin, thanks for coming on theCUBE, we really appreciate your time and insight. >> Thank you, good to see you again. >> Okay, this is theCUBES's coverage of DockerCon 2021 Virtual. I'm John Furrier, your host. Thanks for watching. (upbeat music)

(upbeat music) >> Hello, brilliant humans and welcome back to theCUBE. We're live from Detroit, Michigan. My name is Savannah Peterson. Joined here with John Furrier, John, so exciting, day three. >> Day three, cranking along, doing great, final day of KubeCon, it wraps up. This next segment's going to be great. It's about WebAssembly, the hottest trend here, at KubeCon that nobody knows about cause they just got some funding and it's got some great traction. Multiple players in here. People are really interested in this and they're really discovering it. They're digging into it. So, we're going to hear from one of the founders of the company that's involved. So, it'll be great. >> Yeah, I think we're right at the tip of the iceberg really. We started off the show with Scott from Docker talking about this, but we have a thought leader in this space. Please welcome Matt Butcher the CEO and co-founder of Fermyon Thank you for being here. Welcome. >> Yeah, thanks so much for having me. Favorite thing to talk about is WebAssembly after that is coffee but WebAssembly first. >> Hey, it's the morning. We can talk about both those on the show. (all chuckles) >> It might get confusing, but I'm willing to try. >> If you can use coffee as a metaphor to teach everyone about WebAssembly throughout the rest of the show. >> All right. That would be awesome. >> All right I'll keep that in mind. >> So when we were talking before we got on here I thought it was really fun because I think the hype is just starting in the WebAssembly space. Very excited about it. Where do you think we're at, set the stage? >> Honestly, we were really excited to come here and see that kind of first wave of hype. We came here expecting to have to answer the question you know, what is WebAssembly and why is anybody looking at it in the cloud space, and instead people have been coming up to us and saying, you know this WebAssembly thing, we're hearing about it. What are the problems it's solving? >> Savannah: Yeah. >> We're really excited to hear about it. So, people literally have been stopping us in restaurants and walking down the street, hey, "You're at KubeCon, you're the WebAssembly people. Tell us more about what's going on." >> You're like awesome celeb. I love this. >> Yeah, and I, >> This is great >> You know the, the description I used was I expected to come here shouting into the void. Hey, you know anybody, somebody, let me tell you about WebAssembly. Instead it's been people coming to us and saying "We've heard about it. Get us excited about it," and I think that's a great place to be. >> You know, one of the things that's exciting too is that this kind of big trend with this whole extraction layer conversation, multicloud, it reminds me of the old app server days where, you know there was a separation between the back end and front end, and then we're kind of seeing that now with this WebAssembly Wasm trend where the developers just want to have the apps run everywhere and the coding to kind of fall in, take a minute to explain what this is, why it's important, why are people jazzed about there's other companies like Cosmonic is in there. There's a lot of open source movement behind it. You guys are out there, >> Savannah: Docker. >> 20 million in fresh funding. Why is this important? What is it and why is it relevant right now? Why are people talking about it? >> I mean, we can't... There is no penasia in the tech world much for the good of all of us, right? To keep us employed. But WebAssembly seems to be that technology that just sort of arose at the right time to solve a number of problems that were really feeling intractable not very long ago. You know, at the core of what is WebAssembly? Well it's a binary format, right? But there's, you know, built on the same, strain of development that Java was built on in the 90's and then the .net run time. But with a couple of little fundamental changes that are what have made it compelling today. So when we think about the cloud world, we think about, okay well security's a big deal to us. Virtual machines are a way for us to run other people's untrusted operating systems on our hardware. Containers come along, they're a... The virtual machine is really the heavyweight class. This is the big thing. The workhorse of the cloud. Then along come Containers, they're a little slimmer. They're kind of the middleweight class. They provide us this great way to sort of package up just the application, not the entire operating system just the application and the bits we care about and then be able to execute those in a trusted environment. Well you know, serverless was the buzzword a few years ago. But one thing that serverless really identified for us is that we didn't actually have the kind of cloud side architecture that was the compute layer that was going to be able to fulfill the promise of serverless. >> Yeah. >> And you know, at that time I was at Microsoft we got to see behind the curtain and see how Azure operates and see the frustration with going, okay how do we get this faster? How do we get this startup time down from seconds to hundreds of milliseconds, WebAssembly comes along and we're able to execute these things in sub one millisecond, which means there is almost no cost to starting up one of these. >> Sub one millisecond. I just want to let everyone rest on that for a second. We've talked a lot about velocity and scale on the show. I mean everyone here is trying to do things faster >> Yep >> Obviously, but that is a real linchpin that makes a very big difference when we're talking about deploying things. Yeah. >> Yeah, and I mean when you think about the ecological and the cost impact of what we're building with the cloud. When we leave a bunch of things running in idle we're consuming electricity if nothing else. The electricity bill keeps going up and we're paying for it via cloud service charges. If you can start something in sub one millisecond then there's no reason you have to leave it running when nobody's using it. >> Savannah: Doesn't need to be in the background. >> That's right. >> So the lightweight is awesome. So, this new class comes up. So, like Java was a great metaphor there. This is kind of like that for the modern era of apps. >> Yeah. >> Where is this going to apply most, do you think? Where's it going to impact most? >> Well, you know, I think there are really four big categories. I think there's the kind of thing I was just talking about I think serverless and edge computing and kind of the server class of problem space. I think IOT is going to benefit, Amazon, Disney Plus, >> Savannah: Yes, edge. >> And PBS, sorry BBC, they all use WebAssembly for the players because they need to run the same player on thousands of different devices. >> I didn't even think about that use case. What a good example. >> It's a brilliant way to apply it. IOT is a hard space period and to be able to have that kind of layer of abstraction. So, that's another good use case >> Savannah: Yeah. >> And then I think this kind of plugin model is another one. You see it was Envoy proxy using this as a way to extend the core features. And I think that one's going to be very, very promising as well. I'm forgetting one, but you know. (all chuckles) I think you end up with these kind of discreet compartments where you can easily fit WebAssembly in here and it's solving a problem that we didn't have the technology that was really adequately solving it before. >> No, I love that. One of the things I thought was interesting we were all at dinner, we were together on Tuesday. I was chatting with Paris who runs Deliveroo at Apple and I can't say I've heard this about too many tools but when we were talking about WebAssembly she said "This is good for everybody" And, it's really nice when technologies come along that will raise the water level across the board. And I love that you're leading this. Speaking of you just announced a huge series aid, 20 million dollars just a few days ago. What does that mean for you and the team? >> I mean there's a little bit of economic uncertainty and it's always nice, >> Savannah: Just a little bit. >> Little bit. >> Savannah: It's come up on the show a little bit this week >> Just smidge. and it's nice to know that we're at a critical time developing this kind of infrastructure layer developing this kind of developer experience where they can go from, you know, blinking cursor to deployed application in two minutes or less. It would be a tragedy if that got forestalled merely because you can't achieve the velocity you need to carry it out. So, what's very exciting about being able to raise around like that at this critical time is that gives us the ability to grow strategically, be able to continue releasing products, building a community around WebAssembly as a whole and of course around our products at Fermyon is a little smaller circle in the bigger circle, and that's why we are so excited about having closed around, that's the perfect one to extend a runway like that. >> Well I'm super excited by this because one I love the concept. I think it's very relevant, like how you progress heavyweight, middleweight, maybe this is lightweight class. >> I know, I'm here for the analogy. No, it's great, its great. >> Maybe it's a lightweight class. >> And we're slimming, which not many of us can say in these times so that's awesome. >> Maybe it's more like the tractor trailer, the van, now you got the sports car. >> Matt: Yeah, I can go.. >> Now you're getting Detroit on us. >> I was trying for a coffee, when I just couldn't figure it out. (all chuckles) >> So, you got 20 million. I noticed the investors amplify very good technical VC and early stage firm. >> Amazing, yeah. >> Insight, they do early stage, big early stage like this. Also they're on the board of Docker. Docker was intent to put a tool out there. There's other competition out there. Cosmonic is out there. They're funded. So you got VC funded companies like yourselves and Cosmonic and others. What's that mean? Different tool chains, is it going to create fragmentation? Is there a common mission? How do you look at the competition as you get into the market >> When you see an ecosystem form. So, here we are at KubeCon, the cloud native ecosystem at this point I like to think of them as like concentric rings. You have the kind of core and then networking and storage and you build these rings out and the farther out you get then the easier it is to begin talking about competition and differentiation. But, when you're looking at that core piece everybody's got to be in there together working on the same stuff, because we want interoperability, we want standards based solutions. We want common ways of building things. More than anything, we want the developers and operators and users who come into the ecosystem to be able to like instantly feel like, okay I don't have to learn. Like you said, you know, 50 different tools for 50 different companies. "I see how this works", and they're doing this and they're doing this. >> Are you guys all contributing into the same open source? >> Yep, yeah, so... >> All the funding happens. >> Both CNCF and the ByteCode Alliance are organizations that are really kind of pushing forward that core technology. You know, you mentioned Cosmonic, Microsoft, SOSA, Red Hat, VMware, they're all in here too. All contributing and again, with all of us knowing this is that nascent stage where we got to execute it. >> How? >> Do it together. >> How are you guys differentiating? Because you know, open source is a great thing. Rising Tide floats all boats. This is a hot area. Is there a differentiation discussion or is it more let's see how it goes, kind of thing? >> Well for us, we came into it knowing very specifically what the problem was we wanted to solve. We wanted this serverless architecture that executed in sub one millisecond to solve, to really create a new wave of microservices. >> KubeCon loves performance. They want to run their stuff on the fastest platform possible. >> Yeah, and it shouldn't be a roadblock, you know, yeah. >> And you look at someone like SingleStore who's a database company and they're in it because they want to be able to run web assemblies close to the data. Instead of doing a sequel select and pulling it way out here and munging it and then pushing it back in. They move the code in there and it's executing in there. So everybody's kind of finding a neat little niche. You know, Cosmonic has really gone more for an enterprise play where they're able to provide a lot of high level security guarantees. Whereas we've been more interested in saying, "Hey, this your first foray into WebAssembly and you're interested in serverless we'll get you going in like a couple of minutes". >> I want to ask you because we had Scott Johnston on earlier opening keynote so we kind of chatted one-on-one and I went off form cause I really wanted to talk to him because Docker is one of the most important companies since their pivot, when they did their little reset after the first Docker kind of then they sold the enterprise off to Mirantis they've been doing really, really well. What's your relationship to Docker? He was very bullish with you guys. Insights, joint investor. Is there a relationship? You guys talk, what's going on there? >> I mean, I'm going to have to admit a little bit of hero worship on my part. I think Scott is brilliant. I just do, and having come from the Kubernetes world the Fermyon team, we've always kind of kept an eye on Docker communicated with a lot of them. We've known Justin Cormack for years. Chris Cornett. (indistinct) I mean yeah, and so it has been a very natural >> Probably have been accused of every Docker Con and we've did the last three years on the virtual side with them. So, we know them really well. >> You've always got your finger on the pulse for them. >> Do you have a relationship besides a formal relationship or is it more of pass shoot score together in the industry? >> Yeah. No, I think it is kind of the multi-level one. You come in knowing people. You've worked together before and you like working with each other and then it sort of naturally extends onto saying, "Hey, what can we do together?" And also how do we start building this ecosystem around us with Docker? They've done an excellent job of articulating why WebAssembly is a complimentary technology with Containers. Which is something I believe very wholeheartedly. You need all three of the heavyweight, middleweight, lightweight. You can't do all the with just one, and to have someone like that sort of with a voice profoundly be able to express, look we're going to start integrating it to show you how it works this way and prevent this sort of like needless drama where people are going, oh Dockers dead, now everything's WebAssembly, and that's been a great.. >> This fight that's been going on. I mean, Docker, Kubernetes, WebAssembly, Containers. >> Yeah. >> We've seen on the show and we both know this hybrid is the future. We're all going to be using a variety of different tools to achieve our goals and I think that you are obviously one of them. I'm curious because just as we were going on you mentioned that you have a PhD in philosophy. (Matt chuckles) >> Matt: Yeah. >> Which is a wild card. You're actually our second PhD in philosophy working in a very technical role on the show this week, which is kind of cool. So, how does that translate into the culture at Fermyon? What's it like on the team? >> Well, you know, a philosophy degree if nothing else teaches you to think in systems and both human systems and formal systems. So that helps and when you approach the process of building a company, you need to be thinking both in terms of how are we organizing this? How are we organizing the product? How do we organize the team? We have really learned that culture is a major deal and culture philosophy, >> Savannah: Why I'm bringing it up. >> We like that, you know, we've been very forward. We have our chip values, curiosity, humility inclusivity and passion, and those are kind of the four things that we feel like that each of us every day should strive to be exhibiting these kinds of things. Curiosity, because you can't push the envelope if you don't ask the hard questions. Humility, because you know, it's easy to get cocky and talk about things as if you knew all the answers. We know we don't and that means we can learn from Docker and Microsoft >> Savannah: That's why you're curious. >> And the person who stops by the booth that we've never met before and says, "hey" and inclusivity, of course, building a community if you don't execute on that well you can't build a good community. The diversity of the community is what makes it stronger than a singular.. >> You have to come in and be cohesive with the community. >> Matt: Yeah. >> The app focus is a really, I think, relevant right now. The timing of this is right online. I think Scott had a good answer I thought on the relationship and how he sees it. I think it's going to be a nice extension to not a extension that way, but like. >> It probably will be as well. >> Almost a pun there John, almost a pun. >> There actually might be an extension, but evolution what we're going to get to which I think is going to be pure application server, like. >> Yep, yep. Like performance for new class of developer. Then now the question comes up and we've been watching developer productivity. That is a big theme and our belief is that if you take digital transformation to its conclusion IT and developers aren't a department serving the business they are the business. That means the developer workflows will have to be radically rebuilt to handle the velocity and new tech for just coding. I call it architectural list. >> I like that. I might steal that. >> It's a pun, but it's also brings up the provocative question. You shouldn't have to need an architecture to code. I mean, Java was great for that reason in many ways. So, if that happens if the developers are running the business that means more apps. The apps is the business. You got to have tool chains and productivity. You can't have fragmentation. Some people are saying WebAssembly might, fork tool chains, might challenge the developer productivity. what's your answer to that? How would you address that objection? >> I mean the threat of forking is always lurking in the corner in open source. In a way it's probably a positive threat because it keeps us honest it keeps us wanting to be inclusive again and keep people involved. Honestly though, I'm not particularly worried about it. I know that the W-3 as a standards body, of course, one of the most respected standards bodies on the planet. They do html, they do cascading style sheets. WebAssembly is in that camp and those of us in the core are really very interested in saying, you know, come on in, let's build something that's going to be where the core is solid and you know what you got and then you can go into the resurgence of the application server. I mean, I wholeheartedly agree with you on that, and we can only get there if we say, all right, here are the common paradigms that we're all going to agree to use, now let's go build stuff. >> And as we've been saying, developers are setting, I think are going to set the standards and they're going to vote with their code and their feet, if you will. >> Savannah: A hundred percent. >> They will decide if you're not aligning with what they want to do. okay. On how they want to self-serve and or work, you'll figure that out. >> Yep, yep. >> You'll get instant feedback. >> Yeah. >> Well, you know, again, I tell you a huge fan of Docker. One of the things that Docker understood at the very outset, is that they had an infrastructure tool and developers were the way to get adoption, and if you look at how fast they got adoption versus many, many other technologies that are profoundly impacted. >> Savannah: Wild. >> Yeah. >> Savannah: It's a cool story. >> It's because they got the developers to go, "This is amazing, hey infrastructure folks, here's an infrastructure tool that we like" and the infrastructure folks are used to code being tossed over the wall are going, "Are you for real?" I mean, and that was a brilliant way to do it and I think that what.. >> John: Yeah, yeah. >> We want to replay in the WebAssembly world is making it developer friendly and you know the kind of infrastructure that we can actually operate. >> Well congratulations to the entire community. We're huge fans of the concept. I kind of see where it's going with connect the dots. You guys getting a lot of buzz. I have to ask you, my final question is the hype is beyond all recognition at this point. People are super pumped and enthusiastic about it and people are looking at it maybe some challenging it, but that's all good things. How do you get to the next level where people are confident that this is actually going to go the next step? Hype to confidence. We've seen great hype. Envoy was hyped up big time before it came in, then it became great. That was one of my favorite examples. Hype is okay, but now you got to put some meat on the bone. The sizzle on the stake so to speak. So what's going to be the stake for you guys as you see this going forward? What's the need? >> Yeah, you know, I talk about our first guiding story was, you know, blinking cursor to deployed application in two minutes. That's what you need to win developers initially. So, what's the next story after that? It's got to be, Fermyon can run real world applications that solve real world problems. That's where hype often fails. If you can build something that's neat but nobody's quite sure what to do with it, to use it, maybe somebody will discover a good use. But, if you take that gambling asset, >> Savannah: It's that ending answer that makes the difference. >> Yeah, yeah. So we say, all right, what are developers trying to build with our platform and then relentlessly focus on making that easier and solving the real world problem that way. That's the crucial thing that's going to drive us out of that sort of early hype stage into a well adopted technology and I talk from Fermyon point of view but really that's for all of us in the WebAssembly. >> John: Absolutely. >> Very well stated Matt, just to wrap us up when we're interviewing you here on theCUBE next year, what do you hope to be able to say then that you can't say today? >> All this stuff about coffee we didn't cover today, but also.. (all chuckles) >> Savannah: Here for the coffee show. Only analogies, that's a great analogy. >> I want to walk here and say, you know last time we talked about being able to achieve density in servers that was, you know, 10 times Kubernetes. Next year I want to say no, we're actually thousands of times beyond Kubernetes that we're lowering people's electricity bill by making these servers more efficient and the developers love it. >> That your commitment to the environment is something I want to do an entirely different show on. We learned that 7-8% of all the world's powers actually used on data centers through the show this week which is jarring quite frankly. >> Yeah, yeah. Tragic would be a better way of saying that. >> Yeah, I'm holding back so that we don't go over time here quite frankly. But anyways, Matt Butcher thank you so much for being here with us. >> Thank you so much for having me it was pleasure.. >> You are worth the hype you are getting. I am grateful to have you as our WebAssembly thought leader. In addition to Scott today from Docker earlier in the show. John Furrier, thanks for being my co-host and thank all of you for tuning into theCUBE here, live from Detroit. I'm Savannah Peterson and we'll be back with more soon. (ambient music)

>>Welcome back to the cubes coverage of dr khan 2021 virtual. I'm john for a host of the cube. Got a great cube segment here at Donnie Bergholz, VP of products at Docker Industry veterans, seeing all the ways of innovation now uh had a product that dr dani great to see you. >>It's great to see you again to john >>hey, great program this year, Dr khan almost pushing the envelope again. Just the world's changed significantly over the past few years in this past year has been pretty crazy last year were virtual at the beginning of the pandemic, the watershed moment. Dr khan 2020 you know, with virtual event and then share action packed keynote track, uh four tracks run share build accelerate, you got a cube track, you've got live hits. Uh, community rooms global, huge growth in the developer community around Docker Kubernetes is now well understood by everyone and the general consensus is everyone's in production with it moving like a fast train cloud natives at the center of the action coupons, very operational operators. Dr khan's very development focus. So this is a key developer event really in the CNC F cloud native world. What's going on the process? Give us the update? >>Yeah. And I think you made a fantastic point there, john which is the developer focus. Uh, I joined dr back in october of last year and one of the first things that I did was make sure that we were going out there listening to our customers, having a lot of fresh conversations with them and using those as the core product strategy as we were talking to customers. What we learned fell into three big buckets around building sharing and running modern applications. So we've used those to create our product strategy which is based on solving problems that our customers and developers using Docker care about rather than lot of product strategies that I've come across as an analyst and as a leader on the enterprise side, which are very much feature factory driven of like here's the thing we can ship it, what kind of shove it in your face and try and sell it to you. So I'm really excited about what we're doing a doctor by delivering things that are developers really care about based on problems that they have told us are really valuable to solve problems that when we win, we went together and so we're focused on helping developers really accelerate their application delivery. So what are we doing? There's so much stuff and you know, if you've seen the keynote already, you'll see more and more of that. We announced for really big things and a lot of smaller things as well, um things like uh doctor verified publisher program which brings more trusted content. Um the doctor deV environments that help teams collaborate more effectively, um dr desktop on apple silicon bringing environments to the latest and greatest of machines that everybody is trying to get ahold of. Especially now that cps are harder to come by. Uh uh as well as uh some of those little things like scoped personal access tokens, which makes it easier for people to use a Ci pipeline without having to give it full right privileges and be concerned that if they get hacked, if the sea acrobatic it's hacked, then they get hacked to we're trying to help them defend against those kinds of cases. >>It's funny you made me think of the eye with the apple silicon comment, the supply chain threats that you've seen in hardware. And even here I'm hearing the word kicked around just in the CTO of doctor used the word supply chain, software supply chain. So again, you bring up this idea of supply chain, you mentioned trust. I can almost see the dots connecting, you know, in real time out in the audience out there saying, okay, you've got trust supply chain hardware, software, containers, there's no perimeter and clouds. You have to have a kind of unit level security. This is kind of a big deal. Can you just unpack this trend? Because this is a security kind of anywhere kind of not going to use a buzzword, but like supply chain actually hits home here. Like talk about that. What? All wise all this means? >>Yeah, I think Doctor is in a really interesting position in terms of how development teams and enterprises are adopting it, because it's been around for long enough that enterprises have come to trust Docker and it's really gotten in there in a way that a lot of brand new technologies have not. And yet we're still pushing the boundaries of innovation at the same time. So when when we think about where dr fits in for developers, we've got dr official images, which are probably adopted the default for anything you're going to do in a container. You go and get a doctor official image and start doing it. But then what Right? You pulling a bunch of those, you start building applications, you start pulling other libraries, you build your own code on top, um, on your DEV environment where you're probably running doctor desktop to do so. And so we've got content coming from a trusted source, we've got dr running on the developer laptop and then we've got everything else like where else does it go from there? Uh, and so there's a ton of um, both problem and opportunity to help bring all that complex kind of spaghetti pipeline mess together and help provide people with the path of they can have confidence in while they're doing so. It's interesting because it's different for developers than it is for option. Security teams very, very different in terms of what they care about. >>So talk about the automation impact because I can see two things happening. One is the trusted environment, more containers everywhere. And then you have more developers coming on board. Right? So actually more people writing code, not just bots, machines and humans. So you have more people flooding in writing code, more containers everywhere that need to be trusted? What's the impact to the environment? What's the but how do you, how does develop experience get easier and simpler when that's happening? >>We see that as you get more and more content, The tail, the long tail continues to extend, right, more and more community generated third party content. People publishing their own applications on Docker hub and all across the Internet. And that makes the importance of being able to discover things that you can trust that you can incorporate without worrying about what might be there all the more important. So we've got dr official images today, we announced the doctor verified publisher program. All these are things that we're doing to try and make it easier for developers to find the good stuff to use it and not worry about it and just move on with their lives. >>What's your vision and what's your, what stalkers take on the collaboration aspect of coding? I think it's one of the key themes here. Where does that fit in? What's the story with collaboration? >>Yeah, we see this as an area that really has been left behind around the adoption of containers, the adoption of kubernetes, the focus has been so much on that pipeline and that path and production and production container orchestration where we watched the generation of kubernetes arise and most of the vendors in the space, we're doing some kind of top down infrastructure deal right selling to the VP of Ops or something along those lines. Um and so the development of those applications really was left by the wayside because that's not a problem that the VP of us cares about, but it's a very interesting problem as we think about dr being focused on developers now to help those teams collaborate because no application is built in a closet. Every single application that is built is built in partnership with other developers, with product managers, with designers, all these people who need to somehow work together to review not only the source code, but the application as a whole. >>What does the product? Um, Evolution looked like as Justin Cormack and I were talking about, you know, developer productivity, the simplification containers as a P. I. S. What is the, what is the priority? How, how do you look at that? Because the securities front and center and a variety of security partners here in the ecosystem. Where's the priorities on the road map? You can, if someone asked you, hey Donnie, what's the bottom line? What's the product strategy? >>Yeah, our priority is the team. First and foremost, it is not optimizing for the single developer, it is optimizing for that team working together effectively. We feel that that is a very underserved audience of that developer team as a unit. Um, if you look at everybody in the container space, like I said, they're all kind of focused on operations, production, cloud environments, not on that team. And so we see that as a great opportunity to solve really important problems that nobody else is doing a great job of solving today. >>I gotta ask you on the team formation is the general consensus. Also in a lot of my interviews here at dr khan and outside in the industry, is that the, the monolithic organization building monolithic applications certainly has been disrupted. Certainly the engineering teams now look like they're going to be into end workloads, full visibility and to end with an s sorry, on the team, everyone kind of built in these teams. We kind of platform engineering flexing in between. So you don't have that kind of like silent organization certainly has been discussed for well, but this seems to be the standard. Now, what's your take on this and is that what you mean by teams that could you share your view on how people are organizing teams? Because certainly get hub and a lot of other leaders are saying, yeah, we see the same way these teams have, you know, threaded leaders and or fully baked team members inside these teams. >>Yeah, we definitely see that team as a cross functional team. It's not, you know, your your old world, we might have been like, you've got the development team here, you've got the QA team here, you've got the operations team there. It's completely not that it's that team is it's got developers on it. If there are dedicated testers or software engineers and test their on it, if they need to have a devops person or an SRE there on it as well, it's all part of the same team and that team is building on top of the platforms that are exposed by other teams. And that's the big shift that I think has been in the works for probably a decade at this point has been that kind of rotation of responsibilities that you used to be, that DEV's owned the DEV environment and DEV test and ops owned Prod and everything about PROd and now it's much more that there are platforms that span every environment and there's a platform team responsible for each one of those components that delivers it in a self service way. And then there are teams that build on top of that that own their application all the way from development through to production, they support it there on call for it. This is how we work internally, our development teams in our product development teams, I should say, because they're cross functional, really take ownership for their applications and it's it's a super powerful imperative. It gives people the ability to iterate much more quickly by taking away a lot of those gatekeepers. And it's it's the same thing as a matter of fact, when I was at an enterprise before I joined dr it's the same thing we did. A big part of our strategy was creating these self service platforms so that product teams could move quickly. >>Remember I interviewed during the QB was awesome. Great concept. Go back to look at that tape. That's not exactly not tape, it's on disk, but Great. Great concept. Let me ask you one more question on that because one of the things that's clear that's coming out even in the university areas Engineering DeVOPS has now brought in much more of a focus of the SRE that used to be an ops role but now becomes becoming developer. I mean it's DEVOPS, as you said, it's been going on for a while over a decade now it's much more clear that this s. R. Re engineering role is key. So with that I've always thought Doctor and containers is a perfect integration tool capability. I mean why not? I mean that's one of the benefits of containers as you allow, you can contain arise things. So if you play out what you just said about the team's integration is huge. Talk about how you see that evolving as a product person. >>Yeah. I think as you say, the integration is huge. Um You know, one way that I look at it is that the application itself or the service itself is defined by either a container or a set of containers. Um And the product development team cares about what's inside of that set of containers up and to that container layer or that group of containers layer. Whether that's the doctor file with its containers. Docker compose those kinds of things and then there might be a platform team responsible for running a great kubernetes environment, whether they're using a cloud platform or in house and they care about everything outside of the containers, up to the containers as that interface. Uh So when we think about those focuses, like Docker is all about that application in words. Um And a lot of the more production oriented containers vendors are container outwards. So it's very different when we think about the kinds of problems we want to solve. It's about making that application definition really easy and portable and enabling a clean handoff to SRE teams who may be responsible for running that Apple product. >>You brought up trusted content, trusted containers, modern applications earlier. What does trusted containers mean to you? I mean that's I mean obviously means security built in but there's a lot of migration there with containers, containers coming in and out of clusters all the time. They're being orchestrated. They're being used with state and state stateless data. What does trusted content mean? >>No. Really, for us, the focus is an interesting one because when we think about building, sharing and running applications for developers, our run means we want to give developers are great interface into the production environment. We don't want to provide the production environment. And so some of those problems are ones we deeply care about where the developers are making sure that they've got a trusted, secure, verifiable path to get the content that they are incorporating into their app all the way to production or to a point of hand off. If there is a point of hand off, once it gets to production, it becomes the problem of different products and different vendors to make it really easy for those same enterprises to effectively secure that application and project. >>What does containers is as an A P. I mean that's just docker reference classic approach or is there a new definition to containers as a piece? Our container ap >>Yeah, I think the question becomes really interesting when you start thinking about what's inside of each one of those containers and how you might be able to use those as building blocks. Even thinking about trends that are on the rise, like Loco Noko development, how could you imagine incorporating containers or a service composed of a group of containers um, into one of those kinds of contexts to do so you have to have a clean ap that you can define and published in support of how a different component would interface with every one of those containers. What are the ports? What are the protocols? What are the formats? Every one of those things is important to creating an API >>So I gotta ask you don? T put you on the spot because you've been on many, many sides of the table, analyst Docker, you've been at an enterprise doing some hardcore devops. If I'm a customer out there and say I'm a classic main street enterprise. Hey Donnie, I'm putting my teams, we're kicking ass. We've been kicking the tires, been in the cloud pandemics, giving us a little lift, we know it to double down on, we feel good about where we're going. Um, but I got a couple clouds out there. I'm all in on one. I got another one going, but I'm going hybrid all the way. I don't even know what multi cloud is yet, but hybrid means edge and ultimately distributed computing. What do I do? What's the doctor Playbook, What do you, what do you say to me? How do you keep me calm and motivated? Yeah, >>I think, you know, the reality is like you say every company is going to be running in multiple different environments. Um It's probably not the same application in multiple environments and different apps and they've gotten to a place maybe accidentally as different business units are different functions started picking different clouds of their choice and getting them there. But in the end of it, like the company as a whole has to figure out how do I support that and how do I make it all work together effectively and deal with all the different, not just levels of expertise in these different environments, but the different levels of performance and latency to expect as you have applications that may need to run across all those, um you know, I used to work in the travel industry and you might have somebody trying to book a flight and that's but you know, bouncing across a cloud to a data center, to a different cloud, to a service provider and on back and you can imagine very quickly, how do you solve for those latency problems that we know are correlated to user experience and in an e commerce kind of context correlated with revenue because people balance if they can't get a good response, it's complicated. The fact is it's just it's a hard problem to solve. Um containers can definitely help solve part of that by providing a consistent platform that lets you take your applications from place to place. That lets you build a consistent set of expertise so that, you know, a container here is like a container, there is like a container over there um And work with those in a fairly consistent way. But there's always going to be differences. I think it's very dangerous to assume that because you have a container in multiple places, it's going to provide the same levels of guarantees. And we had a lot of these conversations back in the early 2010s when private cloud was really starting to pick up steam and we said Oh let's make compatible storage layers. Uh And it was true to a point you could provide api compatibility but you had to run as hard as you could to keep up with the changes and you couldn't provide the same level of resiliency, You couldn't provide the same level of data protection, you couldn't provide the same level of performance and global footprint and all those provide what what does the A. P. I mean to a developer using it. It's all of those things regardless of whether they're in an api spec somewhere. >>That's a great call out looking at the how things are moving so fast and you just got to keep up. It's almost like you want some peace, peace time kind of philosophy. So I gotta ask you as you look at the landscape again, you've got a unique perspective running product over a docker which puts you at the front lines and looking at the whole marketplace as as a whole cloud native. But you also been an analyst. I got to ask you what does success look like because as the world changes that it's not always obvious until you see it. And then you know that success and then some people are trying different approaches. How do you tell the winners from the losers or the better approaches versus the ones that struggle? Is there a pattern that you're seeing emerge from the pandemic as a team is a tech? What's the, what's the pattern of success that you see? Development teams and organizations deploying that's working and what's a sign of bad things? >>Yeah, I think, you know, one of the biggest patterns is the ability to iterate quickly and learn fast. You know, if there's nothing else that you can do, you just think about what are those basic principles that let you be Agile? Not as a development team. Agile is a company getting from those ideas and that customer feedback all the way through the loop. To build that thing, tested with your customers before you ship it, get it out there. Maybe you do some kind of a modern deployment practice to decrease your risk as you're doing so right. It's Canary, it's rolling, releases its blue green, all those things Right? How do you d risk, how do you experiment while you're doing so and how do you stay agile so that you're able to provide customer value as fast as possible? Almost every failure pattern that you see is one that happens because you're not listening to your customers effectively and often enough and you're not iterating quickly enough so you're building in a direction that is not what they wanted or needed, >>you know, looking at Dr khan 2021 this year, look at the calendar, the cube tracks in there, which I'm excited to do a bunch of coverage on. It's always fun. But you got the classic build share run, which is the ethos of Doctor, but you get a new track called accelerate, there is an acceleration coming out of the pandemic more than ever. Um it's been pretty cool. I mean you're seeing a lot more action in all areas but talk about the acceleration with containers and what you what you're seeing on the landscape side of the industry and how that's impacting customers. What specifically is this acceleration really all about? >>Yeah, when I think about what acceleration means to me, it's about how do you avoid building things, avoid finding things that you don't need to spend your time on? How can you pick things up? Incorporate those into your workflows, incorporate those into your applications that you don't have to build it yourself right, you can accelerate every time you want to accelerate. Its because somebody else built something that you can then reuse and build on top of whether its application components, whether that's SAs or apps, developer services, whether that's pre integrated pipelines. So you've already got plug ins and tools that work every one of those things as an accelerator, A lot of them are delivered by all kinds of different vendors all over the map. And so if they don't integrate well together, if there aren't open A. P. S, if there aren't pre integrated offerings, it's not gonna be an accelerator is gonna be exactly the opposite. It's going to be I want to get this thing in, let me bring in five or six different consulting teams to start trying to piece all this stuff together. Big, big slow down. So the pretty integrated solutions, the open A. P. S. Those are the kinds of things that really are going to accelerate people. >>I can't I can't agree with you more on this whole slowdown thing. And one of the hardest things to do is insert new team members are new kind of rules and process into kind of already accelerated momentum, which is hard. This is a hard new kind of a cloud native dynamic, which is scale and speed are critical, right? So it's one of those things that's actually benefit. But if you don't rein it in a little bit, how do you balance that? What's your advice to folks? This is, this is a common problem. I mean, it could get away from you. It's on one hand, but if you slow down too much, it's a gridlock and you, you misfire. What's your thoughts on this? >>Yeah, that, that balance of scale and speed. Um, and it definitely is a balance there. You know, I think there's always a danger of over architect ng for your current state of reality. Um, and you know, one of the things that I've learned over the years is, you've got to, you got to scale your process and scale your architecture to where you're at and where you're going to be soon, if you start Designing for five years, 10 years down the road, um it's going to slow you down in the short term and you might never get to where you thought you were going to be in five or 10 years. You've got to build for where you're at, built for where you're going soon, you're not gonna go for the future. And this is, it ties into these ideas like evolutionary architecture, like how do you build in a way that makes change easy because, you know, things are always going to change. Um, you know, some of the recent trends around things like project product playing so well to this, right? It's not like a project team comes together and builds the solution and then walks away and the solution works untouched for years or decades. Instead, it's it's that agile approach of is a product team there long lived. They own what they're building and they support it and they continue to enhance it, going forward to improve their ability to meet their customers needs over time. >>Yeah, and I think that's a super important point. The magical product team that just scales infinitely by itself while you're sleeping is different. Again, the team formation is an indicator of that. So, I think this whole agility going to the next level really is all about, you know, a series of these teams. Micro micro teams. Microservices, I mean, again, monolithic applications yielded monolithic organizations. >>Microservices >>brings in kind of this open source ethos, this new hate to use the term to Pizza team because it's an Amazonian thing, but it kind of applies here, Right? So you got to have these teams. I had to focus and to end and take ownership of that, whether it's product, platform or project at the end of the day, you're still serving customers. Final question for you on. Well, I got you here. I know end user experience you brought this up earlier. This is a huge important piece. I think last year, you and I talked about this briefly in our interview as developers come to the front lines of the business, some of them all don't have M B A. S and that always, you know, going to business school and some of the best engineers shouldn't go to business school in my opinion, But but you know, they have to learn the vernacular of complex topics, understand quality, get bring craft into the software more and more developers on the front lines closer and closer to the customer as they go direct. This is a huge change from just 5, 10 years ago. What's your thoughts on this? And what do you tell people when when they say hey donnie what how should I ah posture to the customer? What can I do to get better? What do you say to that? >>Yeah it's a great question. Um and it's one that I think a lot of companies are struggling to solve. How do we bring developers closer to the customers? And what does that mean? One of the things that we do regularly at Dr is we bring our developers along on customer interviews. So our product managers are constantly out there, you know kind of beating the virtual street, talking to developers talking to customers. Um and regularly they'll bring developers on the same team along. This is super valuable in helping our developers really build an understanding of the customers are building for, right. It may not even be about that specific thing that they're building on that one day. Um but it's about understanding the customer's needs and really making that something that is internalized in the way they think about how do they solve problems? How do they design solutions? How do they do? So in a way that is much more likely to resonate with the customers. Um Do they have an NBA? No, but where do you start? You gotta start somewhere? You start by bringing people into the conversation, so we don't expect them to lead an interview. We expect them to come along, learn and ask questions. And what happens so often is that people with, you know, the business in other companies might say yeah, developers, they're just these tech people will just like give him a set of requirements and they'll deliver stuff. Um but bring them along for the ride and letting them interact with the customers that are using their product is an amazing and exciting experience for developers. We hear consistently just super excited, treat back. >>It's clearly the trend. I mean one of the best, the best performing teams have the business and developers working together. It's really interesting phenomenon. I think it's going to change the makeup of taking that and to end approach to a whole nother level dani. Great to have you on. Great to see you final question. Um take a minute to put a plug in for the product team over there. What are you working on? What are you most excited about? Give a quick plug? >>You know, I am super excited about what we're doing in both trusted content and around team collaboration. Um I think both of those are just going to be amazing. Amazing opportunities to improve how developers are working on their microservices. It's so fragmented, it's so complicated that helping make that easier is going to be really important and valuable an area for development teams to focus on. >>Uh, Dr khan 2021 Virtual, Donnie Bergholz, VP of products and Dakar, good friend of the CUBA and the industry as well. Dani, thanks for that. Great insight and sharing some gems you drop there. Thanks. >>All right. Thank you. All >>right. Dr khan coverage I'm john for your host of the cube, The Cube track here at Dakar 2021 virtual. Thanks for watching. Mhm.

>> announcer: From around the globe. It's the theCUBE with digital coverage of DockerCon live 2020. Brought to you by Docker and its ecosystem partners. >> Welcome back to theCUBE coverage here at the DockerCon virtual headquarters, anchor desks here in the Palo Alto Studios were quarantined in this virtual event of DockerCon. I'm John Furrier, host along with Jenny Bertuccio, John Kreisa, Peter McKee, other folks who are moderating and weaving in and out of the sessions. But here we have a live sessions with Justin Graham, Vice President of the Products group at Docker. Justin, thanks for coming in DockerCon virtual '20. >> Absolutely, happy to be here from my home office in Seattle, Washington where it is almost sunny. >> You had a great backdrop traveler saying in the chat you got a bandwidth, a lot of bandwidth there. Looking good, some island. What a day for Docker global event. 77,000 people registered. It's just been an awesome party. >> It's been great, I could hardly sleep last night. I was up at 5:00 this morning. I was telling my son about it at breakfast. I interrupted his Zoom school. And he talked a little bit about it, so it's been awesome. I've been waiting for this interview slot for the most of the day. >> So yeah, I got to tell the kids to get off, download those gigabytes of new game updates and get off Netflix, I hear you. But you got good bandwidth. Let's get into it, I love your position. VP of Product at a company that's super technical, a lot of software, a lot of cloud. You've got a good view of the landscape of what the current situation is relative to the product, the deals that are going on with this new announced here, sneak Microsoft expansion, multiple clouds as well as the roadmap and community interaction. So you got a lot going on, you've got your fingers in all the action. When you get the keys to the kingdom, as we say in the product side of things, what's the story today from your perspective around DockerCon? What's the most important thing people should know about of what's going on with this new Docker? Obviously, ease of use, we've heard a lot about. What's going on? >> So I'll start with people. We are hyper focused on helping developers and development teams build and ship applications. That's what we're focused on. That's what we wake up every day thinking about. And we double click on that a minute in terms of what that means. If you think about where source control ends and having a running application on some production compute in the Cloud on the other end, there's a whole lot that needs to happen in the middle of those two things. And we hear from our development community and we see from those folks, there's a lot of complexity and choices and options and things in the middle there. And we really want to help streamline the creation of those pipelines to get those apps moving to production as fastly, as quickly as possible. >> And you can see it in some of the results and some of the sessions, one session coming up at around four, around how pipelining with Docker help increase the problem solving around curing cancer, really solving, saving people's lives to the front lines with COVID 19 to business value. So you seeing, again Docker coming back into the fold relative to the simple value proposition of making things super easy for developers, but on top of the mega trend of microservices. So, outside of some of these awesome sessions with his learning, the hardcore sessions here at DockerCon around microservices from monitoring, you name it, not a trivial thing cause you've got stateless and state, all kinds of new things are going on with multiple clouds. So not an easy-- >> No. >> road to kind of grok or understand you have to manage that. What are people paying attention to? What is happening? I think, first off I'll say, one of the things that I'm super passionate about is increasing access to technology, so the greatest and best ideas can get bubbled up to the top and expose no matter where they come from, whom they come from, et cetera. And I think one of the things that makes that harder, that makes that complex is just how much developers need to understand or even emerging developers need to understand. Just to even get started. Languages, IDEs, packaging, building where do you ship to? If you pick a certain powder end point, you have to understand networking and storage and identity models are just so much you have to absorb. So we're hyper focused on how can we make that complex super easy. And these are all the things that we get asked questions on. And we get interacted with on our public roadmap in other places to help with. So that's the biggest things that you're going to see coming out of Docker starting now and moving forward. We'll be serving that end. >> Let's talk about some of the new execution successes you guys had. Honestly, Snyk is security shifting left, that's a major, I think a killer win for Snyk. Obviously, getting access to millions of developers use Docker and vice versa. Into the shifting left, you get to security in that workflow piece. Microsoft expanding relationship's interesting as well because Microsoft's got a robust tech developer ecosystem. They have their own tools. So, you see these symbiotic relationship with Docker, again, coming into the fold where there's a lot of working together going on. Explain that meaning, what does that mean? >> So you're on the back of the refocus Docker in our hyperfocus on developers and development teams, one of the core tenants of the how. So before that was the what. This is the how we're going to go do it. Is by partnering with the ecosystem as much as possible and bringing the best of breed in front of developers in a way that they can most easily consume. So if you take the Snyk partnership that was just a match, a match made in developer dopamine as a Sean Connolly, would say. We're hyper focused on developers and development teams and Snyk is also hyperfocused on making it as easy as possible for developers and development teams to stay secure ship, fast and stay secure. So it really just matched up super well. And then if you think, "Well, how do we even get there in the first place?" Well, we launched our public roadmap a few months ago, which was a first that Docker has ever done. And one of the first things that comes onto that public roadmap is image vulnerability scanning. For Docker, at that time it was really just focused on Docker Hub in terms of how it came through the roadmap. It got up voted a bunch, there has been some interaction and then we thought, "Well, why just like checking that box isn't enough," right? It's just checking the box. What can we do that really brings sort of the promise of the Docker experience to something like this? And Sneak was an immediate thought, in that respect. And we just really got in touch with them and we just saw eye to eye almost immediately. And then off off the rest went. The second piece of it was really around, well why just do it in Docker Hub? What about Docker Desktop? It's downloaded 80,000 times a week and it's got 2.2 million active installations on a weekly basis. What about those folks? So we decided to raise the bar again and say, "Hey, let's make sure that this partnership includes "not only Docker Hub but Docker Desktop, so you'll be able, when we launch this, to scan your images locally on Docker Desktop. >> Awesome, I see getting some phone calls and then you got to hit this, hit the end button real quick. I saw that in there. I've got an interesting chat I want to just kind of lighten things up a little bit from Brian Stevenson. He says, "Justin, what glasses are those?" (Justin laughing) So he wants to know what kind of glasses you're wearing. >> They're glasses that I think signal that I turned 40 last year. >> (laughs) I'd say it's for your gaming environments, the blue light glasses. >> But I'm not going to say where they came from because it's probably not going to engender a bunch of positive good. But they're nice glasses. They help me see the computer screen and make sure that I'm not a bad fingering my CLI commands >> Well as old guys need the glasses, certainly I do. Speaking of old and young, this brought up a conversation since that came up, I'll just quickly riff into this cause I think it's interesting, Kelsey Hightower, during the innovation panel talked about how the developers and people want to just do applications, someone to get under the hood, up and down the stack. I was riffing with John Chrysler, around kind of the new generation, the kids coming in, the young guns, they all this goodness at their disposal. They didn't have to load Linux on a desktop and Rack and Stack servers all that good stuff. So it's so much more capable today. And so this speaks to the modern era and the expansion overall of opensource and the expansion of the people involved, new expectations and new experiences are required. So as a product person, how do you think about that? Because you don't want to just build for the old, you got to build for the new as well as the experience changes and expectations are different. What's your thoughts around that? >> Yeah, I think about sort of my start in this industry as a really good answer to that. I mean, I remember as a kid, I think I asked for a computer for every birthday and Christmas from when I was six, until I got one given to me by a friend's parents in 1994, on my way off to boarding school. And so it took that long just for me to get a computer into my hands. And then when I was in school there wasn't any role sort of Computer Science or coding courses until my senior year. And then I had to go to an Engineering School at Rensselaer city to sort of get that experience at the time. I mean, just to even get into this industry and learn how to code was just, I mean, so many things had to go my way. And then Microsoft hired me out of college. Another thing that sort of fell my way. So this work that we're doing is just so important because I worked hard, but I had a lot of luck. But not everybody's going to have some of that, right? Have that luck. So how can we make it just as easy as possible for folks to get started wherever you are. If you have a family and you're working another full time job, can you spend a few hours at night learning Docker? We can help you with that. Download Docker Desktop. We have tutorials, we have great docs, we have great captains who teach courses. So everything we're doing is sort of in service of that vision and that democratization of getting into the ideas. And I love what Kelsey, said in terms of, let's stop talking about the tech and let's stop talking about what folks can do with the tech. And that's very, very poignant. So we're really working on like, we'll take care of all the complexity behind the scenes and all of the VMs and the launching of containers and the network. We'll try to help take care of all that complexity behind the curtain so that you can just focus on getting your idea built as a developer. >> Yeah, and you mentioned Kelsey, again. He got a great story about his daughter and Serverless and I was joking on Twitter that his daughter convinced them that Serverless is great. Of course we know that Kelsey already loves Serverless. But he's pointing out this developer dopamine. He didn't say that's Shawn's word, but that's really what his daughter wanted to do is show her friends a website that she built, not get into, "Hey look, I just did a Kubernetes cluster." I mean it's not like... But pick your swim lane. This is what it's all about now. >> Yeah, I hope my son never has to understand what a service mesh is or proxy is. Right? >> Yeah. >> I just hope he just learn the language and just learns how to bring an idea to life and all the rest of it is just behind me here. >> When he said I had a parenting moment, I thought he's going to say something like that. Like, "Oh my kid did it." No, I had to describe whether it's a low level data structure or (laughs) just use Serverless. Shifting gears on the product roadmap for Docker, can you share how folks can learn about it and can you give some commentary on what you're thinking right now? I know you guys put on GitHub. Is there a link available-- >> Absolutely, available. Github.com/docker/roadmap. We tried to be very, very poignant about how we named that. So it was as easy as possible. We launched it a few months ago. It was a first in terms of Docker publicly sharing it's roadmap and what we're thinking and what we're working on. And you'll find very clear instructions of how to post issues and get started. What our code of conduct is. And then you can just get started and we even have a template for you to get started and submit an issue and talk to us about it. And internally my team and to many of our engineers as well, we triaged what we see changing and coming into the public roadmap two to three times a week. So for a half an hour to 45 minutes at a time. And then we're on Slack, batting around ideas that are coming in and saying how we can improve those. So for everyone out there, we really do pay attention to this very frequently. And we iterate on it and the image vulnerability scannings one of those great examples you can see some other things that we're working on up there. So I will say this though, there has been some continual asks for our Lennox version of Docker Desktop. So I will commit that, if we get 500 up votes, that we will triage and figure out how to get that done over a period of time. >> You heard 500 up votes to triage-- >> 500 >> You as get that. And is there a shipping date on that if they get the 500 up votes? >> No, no, (John laughs) you went to a shipping date yet, but it's on the public roadmap. So you'll know when we're working on it and when we're getting there. >> I want before I get into your session you had with the capital, which is a very geeky session getting under the hood, I'm more on the business side. The tail wind obviously for Docker is the micro services trend. What containers has enabled is just going to continue to get more awesome and complex but also a lot of value and agility and all the things you guys are talking about. So that obviously is going to be a tailwind for you. But as you guys look at that piece of it, specifically the business value, how is Docker positioned? Because a of the use cases are, no one really starts out microservices from a clean sheet of paper that we heard some talks here DockerCon where the financial services company said, "Hey, it's simple stack," and then it became feature creep, which became a monolith. And then they had to move that technical debt into a much more polyglot system where you have multiple tools and there's a lot of things going on, that seems to be the trend that also speaks to the legacy environment that most enterprises have. Could you share your view on how Docker fits into those worlds? Because you're either coming from a simple stack that more often and got successful and you're going to go microservice or you have legacy, then you want to decouple and make it highly cohesive. So your thoughts. >> So the simple answer is, Docker can help on both ends. So I think as these new technologies sort of gain momentum and get talked about a bunch and sort of get rapid adoption and rapid hype, then they're almost conceived to be this wall that builds up where people start to think, "Well, maybe my thing isn't modern enough," or, "Maybe my team's not modern enough," or, "Maybe I'm not moderate enough to use this." So there's too much of a hurdle to get over. And that we don't see that at all. There's always a way to get started. Even thinking about the other thing, and I'd say, one we can help, let us know, ping us, we'll be happy to chat with you, but start small, right? If you're in a large enterprise and you have a long legacy stack and a bunch of legacy apps, think about the smallest thing that you can start with, then you can begin to break off of that. And as a proof of concept even by just downloading Docker Desktop and visual studio code and just getting started with breaking off a small piece, and improve the model. And I think that's where Docker can be really helpful introducing you to this paradigm and pattern shift of containers and containerized packaging and microservices and production run time. >> And certainly any company coming out of his post pandemic is going to need to have a growth strategy that's going to be based on apps that's going to be based on the projects that they're currently working, double down on those and kind of sunset the ones that aren't or fix the legacy seems to be a major Taylor. >> The second bit is, as a company, you're going to also have to start something new or many new things to innovate for your customers and keep up with the times and the latest technology. So start to think about how you can ensure that the new things that you're doing are starting off in a containerized way using Docker to help you get there. If the legacy pieces may not be able to move as quickly or there's more required there, just think about the new things you're going to do and start new in that respect. >> Well, let's bring some customer scenarios to the table. Pretend I'm a customer, we're talking, "Hey Justin, you're looking good. "Hey, I love Docker. I love the polyglot, blah, blah, blah." Hey, you know what? And I want to get your response to this. And I say, "DevOps won't work here where we are, "it's just not a good fit." What do you say when you hear things like that? >> See my previous comment about the wall that builds up. So the answer is, and I remember hearing this by the way, about Agile years ago, when Agile development and Agile processes began to come in and take hold and take over for sort of waterfall processes, right? What I hear customers really saying is, "Man, this is really hard, this is super hard. "I don't know where to start, it's very hard. "How can you help? "Help me figure out where to start." And that is one of the things that we're very very very clearly working on. So first off we just, our docs team who do great work, just made an unbelievable update to the Docker documentation homepage, docs.docker.com. Before you were sort of met with a wall of text in a long left navigation that if you didn't know what you were doing, I would know where to go. Now you can go there and there's six very clear paths for you to follow. Do you want to get started? Are you looking for a product manual, et cetera. So if you're just looking for where to get started, just click on that. That'll give you a great start. when you download Docker Desktop, there's now an onboarding tutorial that will walk you through getting your first application started. So there are ways for you to help and get started. And then we have a great group of Docker captains Bret Fisher, many others who are also instructors, we can absolutely put you in touch with them or some online coursework that they deliver as well. So there's many resources available to you. Let us help you just get over the hump of getting started. >> And Jenny, and on the community side and Peter McKee, we're talking about some libraries are coming out, some educational stuff's coming around the corner as well. So we'll keep an eye out for that. Question for you, a personal question, can you share a proud devOps Docker moment that you could share with the audience? >> Oh wow, so many to go through. So I think a few things come to mind over the past few weeks. So for everyone that has no... we launched some exciting new pricing plans last week for Docker. So you can now get quite a bit of value for $7 a month in our pro plan. But the amount of work that the team had to do to get there was just an incredible thing. And just watching how the team have a team operated and how the team got there and just how they were turning on a dime with decisions that were being made. And I'm seeing the same thing through some of our teams that are building the image vulnerability scanning feature. I won't quote the number, but there's a very small number of people working on that feature that are creating an incredible thing for customers. So it's just how we think every day. Because we're actually almost trying to productize how we work, right? And bring that to the customer. >> Awesome, and your take on DockerCon virtual, obviously, we're all in this situation. The content's been rich on the site. You would just on the captains program earlier in the day. >> Yes. >> Doctor kept Brett's captain taught like a marathon session. Did they grill you hard or what was your experience on the captain's feed? >> I love the captain's feed. We did a run of that for the Docker birthday a few months ago with my co-worker Justin Cormack. So yes, there are two Justin's that work at Docker. I got the internal Justin Slack handle. He got the external, the community Slack Justin handle. So we split the goods there. But lots of questions about how to get started. I mean, I think there was one really good question there. Someone was saying asking for advice on just how to get started as someone who wants to be a new engineer or get into coding. And I think we're seeing a lot of this. I even have a good friend whose wife was a very successful and still is a very successful person in the marketing field. And is learning how to code and wants to do a career switch. Right? >> Yeah. >> So it's really exciting. >> DockerCon is virtual. We heard Kelsey Hightower, we heard James Governor, talk about events going to be more about group conventions getting together, whether they're small, medium, or large. What's your take on DockerCon virtual, or in general, what makes a great conference these days? Cause we'll soon get back to the physical space. But I think the genie's out of the bottle, that digital space has no boundaries. It's limitless and creativity. We're just scratching the surface. What makes a great event in your mind? >> I think so, I go back to thinking, I've probably flown 600,000 miles in the past three years. Lots of time away from my family, lots of time away from my son. And now that we're all in this situation together in terms of being sheltered in place in the global pandemic and we're executing an event that has 10 times more participation from attendees than we had in our in person event. And I sat back in my chair this morning and I was thinking, "Did I really need to fly that 600,000 miles "in the past three years?" And I think James Governor, brought it up earlier. I really think the world has changed underneath us. It's just going to be really hard to... This will all be over eventually. Hopefully we'll get to a vaccine really soon. And then folks will start to feel like world's a little bit more back to "normal" but man, I'm going to really have to ask myself like, "Do I really need to get on this airplane "and fly wherever it is? "Why can't I just do it from my home office "and give my son breakfast and take them to school, "and then see them in the evening?" Plus second, like I mentioned before in terms of access, no in person event will be able to compete ever with the type of access that this type of a platform provides. There just aren't like fairly or unfairly, lots of people just cannot travel to certain places. For lots of different reasons, monetary probably being primary. And it's not their job to figure out how to get to the thing. It's our job to figure out how to get the tech and the access and the learning to them. Right? >> Yeah (murmurs) >> So I'm super committed to that and I'll be asking the question continually. I think my internal colleagues are probably laughing now because I've been beating the drum of like, "Why do we ever have to do anything in person anymore?" Like, "Let's expand the access." >> Yeah, expand the access. And what's great too is the CEO was in multiple chat streams. So you could literally, it's almost beam in there like Star Trek. And just you can be more places that doesn't require that spatial limitations. >> Yeah. >> I think face to face will be good intimate more a party-like environment, more bonding or where social face to face is more impactful. >> We do have to figure out how to have the attendee party virtually. So, we have to figure out how to get some great electronic, or band, or something to play a virtual show, and like what the ship everybody a beverage, I don't now. >> We'll co-create with Dopper theCUBE pub and have beer for everybody if need they at some point (laughs). Justin, great insight. Thank you for coming on and sharing the roadmap update on the product and your insights into the tech as well as events. Appreciate it, thank you. >> Absolutely, thank you so much. And thanks everyone for attending. >> Congratulations, on all the work on the products Docker going to the next level. Microservices is a tailwind, but it's about productivity, simplicity. Justin, the product, head of the product for Docker, VP of product on here theCUBE, DockerCon 2020. I'm John Furrier. Stay with us for more continuous coverage on theCUBE track we're on now, we're streaming live. These sessions are immediately on demand. Check out the calendar. There's 43 sessions submitted by the community. Jump in there, there are own container of content. Get in there, pun intended, and chat, and meet people, and learn. Thanks for watching. Stay with us for more after this break. (upbeat music)