>> Announcer: Live from Vancouver, Canada. It's theCUBE covering OpenStack Summit North America 2018, brought to you by Red Hat, the OpenStack Foundation and its ecosystem partners. >> Welcome back, I'm Stu Miniman and my cohost John Troyer and you're watching theCUBE, the worldwide leader in tech coverage and this is exclusive coverage from OpenStack Summit 2018 in Vancouver. Usually this time of year it is a little bit overcast, but for the second time the OpenStack Summit has been here, the sun is shining. It has been gorgeous weather but we are in here really digging in and understanding it One of the people I have gotten to know through this community especially, is our wrap up guest today, Sean Michael Kerner, who is a senior editor with eWeek, amongst other bi-lines that you have. Pleasure to see you. >> Great, good seeing you too Stu. >> Alright, so we let you keep on the Toronto Bluejays hat >> Thank you, there we go. >> We have had quite a few Canadians on our program here. >> Well, seeing as how you're here in Canada, it's not all that surprising. >> It's lovely. They have you working on Victoria Day. >> Yeah, that's unfortunate but I will take Memorial Day off in a week, so it works out. >> Excellent. So Sean, for our audience that might not know you, give us a little bit about your background. You've been to umpteen of these shows. >> Sure. I have been with the same publication roughly, I guess 15-16 years at this point. I've been writing before there was cloud, core living and Opensource stuff, networking. And then through the magic of technology, I shifted a little bit to security, which is a core focus for me. I have been to every OpenStack Summit since the San Diego Summit, I guess, 2011. Somebody can correct me afterwards. I did miss the Sydney Summit for various reasons, but yeah, I've been to a bunch of these things, so interesting to see how things have shifted over the years from nothing to certain heights to where we are now. >> Alright, so bring us up to that, as to where we are now. Attendance is down a little bit. They haven't been talking a lot about it but quality I guess is here. Sessions, they've broadened down a bit of the scope. We have been digging into it, but want to get your take so far. >> Yeah, well it's like anything else, there are standard hype cycles, as it were and there's a trough of disillusionment. I wouldn't call this a trough of disillusionment, but when you get to a certain plateau, people just, there'sn't as much interest. In the early days, I remember the San Diego Summit I went to. They didn't schedule it properly. They didn't know how many people they were going to have, and they had to line up around the corner and stuff. That was six years ago, but that is when OpenStack was new. There was no such thing as the Foundation, and everyone was trying to figure out what was what. And, there was no clue at this point. Cloud is a well understood thing. There are competitive efforts or complimentary efforts, as the Foundation would probably like to put it; whether it's CNCF, there's the public cloud and it's different. There is, with all respect to the OpenStack Foundation and its member projects, there's not as much excitement. This in now a stable, mature ecosystem and because of that, I don't think there's as much of a draw. When something is brand new and shiny, you get more of a draw. If they would have put the name Blockchain somewhere, maybe, maybe they would have had a few more. They put Kubernetes in there, which is fine, but no machine learning or artificial intelligence quite yet, though that's a topic somewhere in there too. >> Yeah, John, you've been making a lot of comments this week talking about we've matured and the lower layer pieces just work a bit more. Give us your take about that. >> Sure. That's the way it seems. There wasn't a whole lot of talk about the release, news release, and all the different components, even the keynotes. But, the people we have talked to, both on the vendor and the customer side, they have working production OpenStack environments. They're very large. They require very few admins. They work. They're embedded in telecom and banking, et cetera. It's here and it's working. >> Yeah, that's so something that happened, maybe three cycles ago at this point, because they used to have the release the same time as the Summit and the Design Summit. It was together, so, there was essentially a celebration of the release. People would talk about the release and then they desegrigated that. I think that took a lot of steam out of the reason why you got developers to attend. So, when you don't have the Design Summit, there's this separate open endeavor, there's the forum, I don't quite understand how that works here now. There isn't as much momentum. Yeah, I agree with you. There has been very little talk about Queens. In each of the project update sessions I have been to, and I have been to a couple, there has always been a slight on Rocky, what's coming. I think we are on the second milestone of Rocky, at this point, so there's some development, but at this point it is incremental featurettes. There is no whiz bang. OK, we're going to have flying cars, you know send a Tesla to outer space kind of Earth shattering kind of news, literally, because that's not where it's at. It's just incremental tuck in features in stability and that kind of thing. >> Alright, you talk space and thinks like that and it brings to mind a certain attendee of the program that has actually been to outer space and maybe one of the more notable moments of the show so far. Give us your take on Mr. Shuttleworth. >> Well, I'm a big fan of Mr. Shuttleworth, top to bottom. Hey Mark. Big fan, always have been. He has his own opinion on things of course. Usually in a keynote you don't tend to take direct aim at competitors and he chose to do that. It made some people a little uncomfortable. I happened to be sitting in the front row, where I like to sit, and there was some Red Hat people, and there were some frantic emails going back and forth. And people were trying to see what was going on et cetera. I think, for me, a little bit of drama is okay. You guys go to more shows than I do, and sometimes you get these kind of sales kind of things. But in an open community, there's almost an unwritten rule, which perhaps will be written after this conference, that whether or not everybody is a business competitor or not, is that this is neutral territory as it were and everybody is kind of friendly. In the exhibit hall, you can say this and that, we are better, whatever, but on the stage you don't necessarily do that, so there was some drama there. Some of my peers wrote about that and I will be writing about it as well. It's a, I prefer to write about technology and not necessarily drama. Whether somebody is faster, better, stronger than others, you let the number prove them out. When we talk about Opensource, Opensource Innovation without Canonical, there probably wouldn't have been an OpenStack. All the initial OpenStack reference and limitations are on Canonical. They got a number of large public clouds, as does Red Hat. I think they both have their tactical merits and I'm sure on some respects Red Hat's better and on some respects Canonical is better, but him standing up there and beating on the competition was something that across the 13 summits I have been I have never seen before. One guy I talked to my first OpenStack Summit was in San Diego and the CTO of VMware at the time came up to, VMware was not an OpenStack contributor at the time, they were thinking about it, and he was fielding questions about how it was competitive or not and he was still complimentary. So there has always been that kind of thing. So, a little bit of an interesting shift, a little bit of drama, and gives this show something memorable, because you and I and others will be able to talk about this five years from now, et cetera. >> You talked about something you would write up. I mean part of your job is to take things back to the readers at eWeek. >> Yeah. >> What are the things, highlights you're going to be covering? >> The highlights for me, Stu and I talked about this at one point off the camera, this is not an OpenStack Summit necessarily, they're calling it Open Infrastructure. I almost thought that they would change, we almost thought that they would change the name of the entire organization to the Open Infrastructure Foundation. That whole shift, and I know the foundation has been talking about that since Sydney last year, that they're going to shift to that, but, that's the take away. The platform itself is not the only thing. Enabling the open infrastructure is nice. They're going to try and play well and where it fits within the whole stack. That gets very confusing because talking about collaboration is all fine and nice, but that is not necessarily news. That is how the hot dog is made and that's nice. But, people want to know what's in that dog and how it is going to work. I think it's a tougher show for me to cover than it has been in past years, because there has been less news. There's no new release. There was Kata 1.0 release and there was the Zuul project coming out on its own. Zuul project, they said it was 3.0, it was actually March was Zuul 3.03. Kata Container project, okay, interesting, we'll see how it goes. But a tougher project, tougher event for me to cover for that reason. Collaboration is all fine and nice. But, the CNCF CloudNativeCon KubeCon event two weeks ago, or three weeks ago, had a little bit more news and a lot it's same kind of issues come up here. So, long winded answer, tough to come up with lessons learned out of this, other than everyone wants to be friends, well some people want to be. And, collaboration is the way forward. But that is not necessarily a new message. >> When I think about Kubernetes, we are talking about the multi cloud world and that's still, the last few years, where it's been. Where does OpenStack really fit in that multi cloud world? One of the things I have been a little disappointed actually, is most of the time, when I'm having a conversation, it's almost the, yeah, there's public cloud, but we are going to claw things back and I need it for governments, and I need all of these other things. When I talk to customers, it is I'm going to choose what I put in my data center. I'm going to choose how I use probably multiple public cloud finders. It is not an anti-public cloud message, and it feels a little bit on the anti-public cloud mass. I want to work with what you're hearing when you >> talk to users? >> When I talk to users, vast majority of people, unless it's something, where there's regulatory issues or certain legacy issues or private cloud, public cloud period. The private cloud idea is gone or mostly gone. When I think about private clouds, it's really VmWare. We have virtualized instances that sitting there. >> What's OpenStack? >> OpenStack is fine, but how many are running OpenStack as a private cloud premise? >> Yeah, so what's OpenStack then? >> When I think of OpenStack, Oracles public cloud. Oracle is not here surprisingly. Oracle's public cloud, Larry Ellison, who I know you guys have spoken to more than once on theCUBE at various points on Oracle World and other things. Oracle's public cloud, they want to compete against AWS. That's all. OpenStack IBM cloud, all OpenStack. The various big providers out of China are OpenStack based. OEH is here. So that's where it fits in is that underlying infrastructure layer. Walmart uses it. Bestbuy, all these other places, Comcast, et cetera; ATT. But individual enterprises, not so much. I have a hard time finding individual enterprises that will tell me we are running our own private cloud as OpenStack. They will tell me they're running VmWare, they will tell me they're running REV or even some flavor of Citrix end server, but not a private cloud. They may have some kind of instances and they will burst out, but it's not, I don't think private cloud for mid tier enterprises ever took off the way some people thought five years ago. >> That's interesting. Let's go meta for a second. You talked about things you do and don't write about, you don't necessarily write the VC's are not here necessarily, but you don't write about necessarily financial stuff. >> Sometimes. There was actually at the Portland summit, I did a panel with press and analysts at the time and afterwards there might have been four different VC's that came up to me and asked me what I thought about different companies. They were looking at different things where they would invest. And I remember, we looked at the board and one VC who shall remain nameless, and I said you know what, we'll look at this board with all these companies and five years from now, three quarters of them will not be here. I think I was probably wrong because it is more than that. There are so many. I wrote a story, I don't remember the exact name of it, but I wrote a story not that long ago about OpenStack deadpool. There are so, multiple companies that raised funding that disappeared. In the networking space, there were things like Plumgrid, they mminorly acquired for assets by Vmware, if I'm not mistaken. There was Pivotal, Joshua McKenzie, one of the co-founders of OpenStack itself, got acquired by Cisco. But they would have collapsed perhaps otherwise. Nebula Computing is perhaps, it still shocks me. They raised whatever it was 50 odd million, someone will correct me afterward. Chris Kemp, CTO of NASA who helped start it. Gone. So, there has been tremendous consolidation. I think when VC's lose money, they lose interest really fast. The other thing you have to think about, from the VC side, they don't write too much on the financial. My good friend Fredrick, who didn't make it, Where are you, Fredrick, where are you? Does more on that funding side. But has there been a big exit for an OpenStack company? Not really, not really. And without that kind of thing, without that precedence it's a tough thing, especially for a market that is now eight years old, give or take. >> Even the exits that had a decent exit, you know that got bought into the say IBM's, Cisco's of the world, and when you look a couple of years later, there's not much left of those organizations. >> Yeah. It's also really hard. People really don't want to compete against, well, some people want to compete against AWS. But, if you're going to try to go toe to toe with them, it's a challenge. >> Okay, so what brings you back here every year? You're speaking at the show. You're talking to people. >> What brings me back here is regardless of the fact that momentum has probably shifted, it's not in that really hype stage, OpenStack's core infrastructure, literally, core infrastructure that runs important assets. Internet assets, whether it certain public cloud vendors, large Fortune 500 companies, or otherwise. So it's an important piece of the stack, whether it's in the hype cycle or not, so that brings me back, because it's important. It brings me back because I have a vested interest. I have written so much about it so I'm curious to see how it continues to evolve. Specifically, I'm speaking here on Thursday doing a panel on defending Cloud Counsel Security as a core competence, a core interest for me. With all these OpenStack assets out there, how they're defended or not is a critical interest. In the modern world, cyber attacks are a given. Everybody should assume they're always under a constant state of attack and how that security works is a core area of interest and why I will keep coming back. I will also keep coming back because I expect there to be another shift. I don't think we have heard the end of the OpenStack story yet. I think the shift towards open infrastructure will evolve a little bit and will come to an interesting conclusion. >> Alright, last thing is what's your favorite question you're asking at this show. Any final things you want to ask us as we wrap? >> Yeah, my favorite, well, I want to ask you guys, what the most interesting answer you got from all the great people you interviewed because I'm sure some of it was negative and you got mostly positive as well. >> Well, we aren't used to answering the questions Stu. >> I'm used to being on the other side here, right. >> Well, I do say we got a lot of stuff about some interesting and juicy cases, like I say, the practitioners I talked to were real. I was always impressed by how few administrators it takes to run a huge OpenStack based cloud once it's set up. I think that's something interesting to me. You asked some folks about a public cloud a lot. >> Yeah, so it has been interesting. For me, it's, we've reached that certain maturity level. I was looking at technology. What's kind of the watermark that this is going to come to? We had said years ago, I don't think you're going to have somebody selling a billion dollars worth of distribution on OpenStack. So, that story with how Kubernetes and Containers and everything fits in, OpenStack is part of the picture, and it might not be the most exciting thing, but then again, if you watch Linux as long as most of us have, Red Hat took a really long time to get a billion dollars and it was much more than just Linux that got them there. This still has the opportunity to be tooling inside the environment. We have talked to a number of users that use it. It's in there. It's not that the flagpole, we're an OpenStack company anymore because there really aren't many companies saying that that is the core of their mission, but that is still an important piece of the overall fabric of what we are covering. >> Exactly right. >> Alright, we on that note, Sean Michael Kerner, we really appreciate you joining us. Please support good technology journalism because it is people like him that help us understand the technology. I read his stuff all the time and always love chatting with him off the record and dragged him on here and Fredrick from Techron Show we are disappointed you could not join us, but we'll get you next time. For Jon Troyer, I'm Stu Miniman, be sure to join us for the third day tomorrow of three days of wall to wall live coverage here from OpenStack Summit 2018 in Vancouver. And once again, thank you for watching theCUBE. (upbeat music)

(upbeat music) >> Narrator: Live from Boston Massachusetts, it's The CUBE covering OpenStack Summit 2017, brought to you by the OpenStack Foundation, Red Hat and additional ecosystem support. >> Welcome back, I'm Stu Miniman joined by my co-host John Troyer. You're watching The CUBE, the worldwide leader in live tech coverage. Happy to welcome to the program Darrell Jordan-Smith who's the Vice President of Telecommunications at Red Hat. Thanks so much for joining us. >> It's great to be here thank you >> All right so Darrell last year at the show you know the telcos were like all in force. I got to interview Verizon. We're going to have Beth who was on the keynote stage on Monday on our coverage tomorrow. I know they're a Red Hat customer. When I hear at Red Hat summit, there were some really big telcos that are red hat customers. So to tell us why telco and OpenStack you know go so well together these days? >> Well telcos are looking for a open source for innovation. They need to change the way that they deliver services today and modernize their network infrastructure to become more agile, and a lot of them are doing that because of 5G, the next generation of services that they will be deploying over their network infrastructure. They can't do that unless they have an agile infrastructure fabric and an agile software capability to deliver those applications over those networks. >> All right well there's a lot to dig into yet. Let's start with NFV was the use case last year. Well 5G IOT definitely want to get into though but my understanding, I simplified it. NFV is just how the telcos can help deliver via software services they have. I mean think about how your set-top box, I can get channels and I can get certain programming. Is that kind of what you see, and how do they do their business model? >> Yeah traditionally, they bought appliances, hardware specific appliances. They put them in network operation centers and many thousands of those around the world. In the US there's tens of thousands of them. They're really moving more to a software based model where they don't necessarily need to buy a fixed appliance with its own silicone. They're going with commercial off-the-shelf x86 based technology and they're actually deploying that in what I call next generation data centers around Open Compute platform being an architecture, where you're looking at storage, compute, networking in a scalable fashion using open source technologies to deploy that in at massive scale. >> Very different from you think about like cloud might be a place where you have services run but the telcos are pushing services with their software out to their consumers. >> Yeah they're changing the core network infrastructure to support that and at the mobile edge in these network operation centers at the edge, they're making those more agile as well in order to push as many services out closely to the customer but also to aggregate content and data that their customers would acquire. So for example, you take a video clip on your phone, there's no point in storing that in the core of the network. You want to maybe store that at the edge, where maybe some of your friends would share it at that point in time, more efficient ways of drive that. >> I wonder if you can expand a little bit. That that term edge because we hear is that the edge of the network? Is that a mobile device? Is that a sensor for IOT in the telecom world? Is it all of the above? >> Well a lot of people use it is all the above but in the context I'm using it, it's at the edge of the network. It's not the device. That is a whole separate set of conversations, and things reach a very IOT-centric. At the moment, the telecommunications companies want to make the edge more efficient. They want to build clouds around the edge. They want to aggregate all those different clouds, and they want to build agile based infrastructure. So similarly to the way that Facebook, Amazon, Netflix, Google deliver their services today, they need to get into that space in order to be agile enough to develop and deploy their next generation of applications and services. >> So at this point OpenStack in its evolution with this customer vertical, it seems like we're not only talking about a cloud but maybe a cloud of clouds. >> Yes absolutely, I mean telcos again, they typically have one of everything. They are looking at decoupled solutions in terms of their network-based infrastructure. They want to be able to manage every layer of that infrastructure independently of the other layers in order to drive maximum flexibility and agility into their infrastructure but also so they don't get locked in to any one particular vendor. That's a big, big theme in the telco space. >> So you use the words agility and flexibility. So I in a previous lifetime, I did work with some telecom providers and they were not known for those words of agility and flexibility. We're in a world now with open source, with CICD, we talked about upgradability, a lot of the talk here at OpenStack is about manageability and flexibility and building, putting containers on top. Maybe we can go there next but do you, as you work with your customers and partners in the telecom space. It seems like they've had to have a cultural shift. I see a lot of people from the carriers here, right. They're as long haired and shaggy, and barefoot as any other engineer here at OpenStack summit. Has there been a real cultural shift inside telecom to accomplish this? >> Yeah, there's a real cultural shift that's ongoing. It's got a ways to go. The telcos themselves are engineeringly orientated. So they traditionally have come from an environment where we'll build it and customers will come. Now they're looking at we need to build it quicker and faster in order to attract customers, get them to come and view our services, get them addicted to a certain degree. Maybe the wrong word but to our content. So building sticky services, trying to reduce the churn they have in their business, driving innovation through open source because I think they've realized that innovation isn't necessarily within their own company. It sits elsewhere so which is the new Uber as it were? Which is new Airbnb? What is the new WhatsApp-based application? They want to create a network infrastructure that's flexible enough with all of those attributes through API so those companies can develop innovative next-generation content and services over their network infrastructure, in order to attract and make services sticky for their customers. >> Darrell, I wonder if you can speak to the complexity of the solutions in the telco space? Last year we spoke to Verizon, and they love what they have but they had to choose some glass, walk over some hot coals to be able to get the solution together. These are big complicated solutions. We've talked in general about OpenStack, and trying to simplify some of the complexity but can you speak to some of the how long it takes to roll these out and some of the effort involved for the telcos? >> Well it's it's sort of a walk, a cruel walk run process to a lot of that because A working with open source is very different than what they traditionally have done, and as you mentioned earlier, traditionally they'll buy an application through our appliance. They'll take nine months to deploy in all their centers. Then another three to six months later, they might switch it off. In the software agile world, they've got to condense that sort of 12 to 18 month period down to maybe three or four weeks. They may stand up a service for an event like the Olympics and then take it down after the Olympics. So there's a lot of complexity and change in the way that they need to deliver those services, and that complexity isn't trivial. So it involves delivering quality of service through the deployment of next generation network infrastructure because they are regulated companies. So they've got to maintain that quality of service in order to be able to bill, and meet the regulations that they they have to adhere to in the markets that they operate their network infrastructure. Very different from the Googles, the Facebooks of the world. They don't have that sort of regulation over their head. The telcos do so they have a level of discipline that they need to achieve in terms of availability of their network infrastructure, the availability of their services, the availability of their applications, and that links into a whole quality of service experience for their customers, and linked into their operation systems support, into their billing system and the list goes on, and on and on. So what we found at Red Hat is that, that is not trivial, that is hard, and a lot of the telcos are very engineeringly oriented. It's great working with them because they really understand the difficulties, and the fact that this is particularly hard. They also know that they want to build it and own it, and understand it themselves, because it's their business model. To them, the network is an asset. It's not something that they can just outsource to someone else, that doesn't necessarily understand that same degree of that asset. So they want to get their heads around that. >> So they need that reliability. From the eyes of a service provider how mature is OpenStack right now? Is it in production? Can they trust it? We're a few more than a few years into the OpenStack evolution so where are we in deployment? >> That, number of operators are in deployment. You mentioned one on a few months ago like Verizon. >> Stu: Yeah, AT&T is on stage. >> Absolutely, AT&T-- >> Deutsche Telekom, the headlines sponsored the event. >> Exactly, I mean, and what they're doing is they're starting very pragmatically. They're looking at specific services, and they're building slowly a service upon service upon service so they go from a crawl to walking, then to a run. I think, what we're seeing in OpenStack is not if but when these guys will deploy at mass scale. We're beginning now to see a general acceptance that this is a methodology and or a technology that they can deploy and will deploy in the NFE context. The other thing that's occurring in the space is they're looking at traditional IT workloads. So a telco-based cloud if you want to use that terminology is just as capable of running IT-based workloads and services as well. So a number of them are looking at their own enterprise and running those environments. Some of them are partnering with some of our partners to build OpenStack public cloud instances. So they want to try and attract services to that environment as well. >> It's interesting you point that out. There's been that ebbing flow of can the telco players be cloud as John pointed out. I worked in telecommunications back in the '90s. Agile and fast was not the thing of the day. One of the big companies who had bought a cloud company just sold off lots of their data centers. Do they feel that they're going to compete against the Amazon, Microsoft, Googles of the world? Do they think they'll be service providers? Where do they see is their natural fit in the cloud ecosystem? >> So my role is on a global basis. In North America, they don't want to, I don't think they feel they can compete in the way that you were intimating in that regard. However, where they do think they can compete and since we're going to probably talk about 5G and IOT, that is the area where they see public cloud applications and services being developed. So they're looking at the insurance industry, the automotive industry, the manufacturing industry, and creating an environment where those applications can be built to many many thousands of millions of devices connected to them. So I think the definition of in North America, of a public cloud infrastructure is going to evolve in that direction. In other markets such as Latin America and in Europe, some of the telecommunications companies believe that they can be competitive in that space. So more recently, Orange announced that they're working with OpenStack to deploy public cloud. Telefonica, Deutsche Telekom, China Mobile, America Movil, they're all using OpenStack to try and enter that specific market space. >> Okay, please talk to us about the 5G angles here. Obviously like Mobile World Congress, it was like be number one conversation. When we went to the Open Networking Summit, it was there. You're the first person to talk about it that I heard I didn't, maybe I missed it in one of the keynotes but you know none of our interviews has come out yet. So how does that fit into the OpenStack picture? >> So 5G is the reason why telcos are building NFEI, that they were NFE because they realize that to connect all of those devices to their network-based infrastructure, they need to do it intelligently, they need to do it at the edge, and they need to have a high degree of flexibility and agility to their network-based infrastructure to create an innovation environment for application developers to connect all those devices. So we talked about smart cars as a good example around 5G. You need low latency, you need the high availability, you need to be reliable, you need to provide all of that network infrastructure as an example plus you need a portfolio of developers that are going to create all sorts of different applications for those vehicles that we driving around on the street. So that without 5G, that does not happen. You're not, you know some metropolitan areas, the amount of connectivity that you have access to in terms of the traditional cloud-based access networking infrastructure doesn't facilitate the amount of density that 5G will actually facilitate. So you need to be able to change the basis in which you're building that infrastructure to lower the cost of the network in terms of being able to drive that. >> All right and I'm curious I think about the global reach we were just talking about. Usually, the global reach of a new technology like 5G lags a little bit in the rest of the world compared to Western Europe and North America. >> Well, I think in Asia, 5G is, if I look at what they're trying to do, the leading vendors ZTE, Samsung, Huawei, they're heavily invested in 5G-based infrastructure, and they don't have, their operators in those part of the world don't have an awful lot of legacy-based infrastructure to be able to have to replace. They can get there a lot faster. The other thing is with 5G, for them, the applications and services in the way that people experience network-based access or Internet if for want of another word is very different than way that maybe we experience it here in the US or in Europe. So I think you're going to see different applications and different business models evolve in different markets in Asia than you would say here in North America. In North America, I think that it's going to take a lot of the operators different business models to look at maybe some of the higher order of applications and services that drive stickiness for their own infrastructure and network services but also some of the more advanced applications like I mentioned smart cars or smart homes, or smart cities or energy or better ways of delivering products in terms of distribution to your home, those those types of applications and services we won't necessarily in some of those other markets be there and similarly for Europe. >> All right Darrell Jordan-Smith, really appreciate you joining us, giving us all the updates on telco, how it fits with OpenStack. Jon Troyer and I will be back with lots more coverage here from the OpenStack summit 2017 in Boston. You're watching The CUBE (upbeat music)