>>And welcome back to the cubes coverage of alias reinvent 2021. I'm Jon furrier, your host of the cube we're onsite we're hybrid. It's a hybrid event. We've got Odile, Shara Dean vice president of north America solution engineering at Salesforce. We deal SIM thank you for coming on the cube >>You John, excited to be >>Here. So w you know, Salesforce obviously, um, being in Palo Alto in the bay area, they've got the Salesforce tower, great business cloud before cloud great innovation. A lot of growth has been very successful at SAS and platform. So you take that to the government, uh, an area public sector where public sector and other areas around this have been exploding with the pandemic with new use cases and just kind of a refactoring and replatforming of L all aspects of digital. It's been a big digital transformation surge, and rightfully so you guys are in the mix here. Um, talk about the Salesforce is positioned as you guys innovate and scale your platform and rethink this architecture with AWS in the public sector. >>Yeah. Thank you, John. So you're spot on Salesforce defines SAS as a delivery of services to customers, and that's really the precursor to where we are with cloud here. So let's talk about public sector and what that means. I'm very proud to work in and around public sector for many years. And I'll Salesforce, public sector group supports any number of use cases, different missions, anywhere from state and local, all the way through to federal use cases on, on a global scale. But what that means, and I mean, right back to your question is how do we deliver those in the cloud in a scalable, responsive way? You mentioned the pandemic and throughout the pandemic, we were instrumental in trying to deliver these services and getting states and localities towns, countries up and running to deliver the critical things that we all learned about in a hurry contact pricing. >>COVID testing all these ideas around vaccine management, what it takes to get vaccines to populations, but many of our customers, many of our governments just weren't well positioned to do that. So what they were relying on was a secure, scalable, flexible environment that allowed them to define their workflows or their business models in a very, very rapid pace as we were dealing with the surge and the constantly changing landscape of the pandemic. So from our perspective, we've spent years investing in public sector to make sure that we need the compliance requirements, whether that's FedRAMP or, or CMMC, or protected being Canada, how do we do that reliably quickly so that our government customers can rely on us for situations like the pandemic to be able to respond? >>Yeah, one of the things we've been doing a lot of reporting around is the idea that the pandemic has kind of forced, and it was a forcing function around digital transformation. Uh, so I have to ask you knowing the history of Salesforce and the greatness of the company that you guys have had over the years, uh, when you get into the public sector, I'm sure you get all kinds of questions. We don't have sales forces, and we don't have sales managers. Um, we don't need a CRM. Um, and we have industry regulations. We're not a commercial thing. How do you answer those? Because you guys have infrastructure, you are a hyperscale, uh, what's your take on that and how do you answer those direct questions when they come up? >>All great questions and yes, we get them all the time. Uh, so how do we answer them? Well, first and foremost, the idea of a CRM is around putting your customer at the center of your view of them. So that customer relationship management means you, you have a view into the services your customer needs and how they're engaging with you, digitally engagement, in-person engagement, et cetera. I would intend that that's no different for a government entity than it is for a consumer. Very sensitive government entity wants to treat their constituents around the services they need and getting that full 360 view of what, what are the services available to them? How do they access them, et cetera, actually fits really well into that CRM model, but it does take some explaining and reinvisioning it, but it plays really well into the digital transformation imperatives that these agencies have, because what you want to do in a digital transformation is also re-imagined all these old systems and legacy systems, how you're going to make them more accessible. >>But also to your point, how do you bring them to this level of expectation that our consumers have? I'm now accustomed to having mobile apps and on-demand, uh, applications and websites for ordering products for ordering needs, et cetera, for booking a restaurant reservation, I've developed the exact same requirements and expectations of my government services and our government customers are clearly aware of this. So they want to bring this capability to the fore and offer their constituents a better experience as well. When you asked about government regulations, this is absolutely critical to how we think about delivering that service, the value of the cloud. Isn't just, you can go get access to a service and not have to worry about that service. It's also, how do we unencumber agencies from these compliance requirements from audits, from privacy checks and needs in a constantly evolving landscape. There's always a legislative imperative to change something, add more constraints, more privacy requirements, compliance requirements, et cetera. So what we want to do is free our customers up from having to worry about that. That's what we undertake. We provide them that level of assurance, and they focus once again, on that higher value of the business flows, the mission, the constituency context, and how to make that constituent experience better. >>I have to ask you, I had a chance to sit down one-on-one with Adam. Slupski the new CEO of AWS recently prior to re-invent. And he said something to me. I want to get your reaction to, he said with scale, you can get visibility on some new use cases. So this applies to Salesforce. You guys are a hyperscaler, you have this new architecture named hyper force. What is this all about? And how does that tie into celebrities comment? Okay. >>Yeah. Uh, excellent question. And we'll talk a little about that history that brings us to two hype before. So just like many of our customers, we realize that having the ability to scale across the globe and be able to offer our services in different regions, different compliance requirements meant that our investments in first party data centers needed to be reconstructed a little bit. And that posed a bit of a rearchitecture for us as well. But that's what gave us the flexibility then to essentially decouple our architecture from the physical infrastructure layer, but it afforded us then the ability to deploy very quickly and very scaleably on AWS in regions that we previously weren't operating in. So it allows us to move along quicker, allows us to bring that flexibility and that scale to the customer where they are. And then we can meet once again, coming back to compliance and regulations. >>We can meet requirements around data residency and data privacy requirements in different regions that we were somewhat constrained in doing earlier. And that also then gives us the ability, I think, to what Adam might've been alluding to now that we're able to bring that service to the customer, they can say, well, actually here's another use case that I would like Salesforce to deliver on. And it gives us that flexibility. We do a lot in terms of expanding across use cases. And if I can point to the pandemic again, just as a great frame of reference that we're all thrust into. Initially, if you cast your mind back to may of last year, we were all worried about contact tracing, right? No side effects scenes, yet we didn't even have pelvic testing. Well, shortly thereafter, COVID testing became available and states were offering those well that from contact tracing to COVID testing is a massive shift. If you think about the use case for technology. So we enable our customers to move very quickly from contact tracing, to COVID, testing them to vaccine management. They're actually entirely different use cases, even though they all apply to solving for the pandemic where we had so many others, digital outreach, helping with loans and grants and management through the PPP programs, through unemployment programs, all different use cases that we helped our customers extend to, which you can't do that if you're not flexible enough to move quickly and scale effectively to support those. >>I think that value proposition and that notion of having that regional global support is going to really come into the whole data programmability trend. I call data as dev ops kind of vibe where data as code becomes more, more agile, right? You're going to see that. I think that's going to be, that's a big theme at a reinvent this year. So, so I have to ask you now, now we're sitting in this global scale, you've got geopolitics, you got public sector. How does Salesforce government cloud plus, and hyper force help your help governments and their partners because their ecosystems too, right? So it's not a commercial. Now it's looking a lot like a commercial lines between commercial and government looking the same. How do you guys help governments and their partners? >>So having been in this, this, uh, area for so long, I, I like to position this tonight. I use this actually as a good selling point, even in selling the value propositions for investment internally, I think of the government regulations and requirements around privacy compliance as a minimum barrier of entry. So I'll, uh, you mentioned our government cloud, plus that's really more in the U S and it's a FedRAMP, uh, tested at a federal and PI level. We've got privacy of lays. We've got our DOD out for, uh, PA in there we've got HIPAA and PCI compliance bank 10. Those are efforts that if a company or a government customer were to go run through individually, it's going to take them a lot of time, effort, and investment to support those. And you end up creating an operations business that just does that for 24 7. >>That's the only reason for them to exist is to manage those. But then we have the government adjacent industries that you're referring to. What about the parkers that service government, they have their own set of regulations. more recently CMMC coming out, et cetera. We provide all of those as a baseline for our government cloud plus. So that level of assurance is assumed by customers and consumers of the service. And again, they're worried about what type of beta and what type of business workflows they're gonna enable and not, can they meet the basic regulations to stand up the service? >>Yeah, I think that highly of the workflows piece is critical because workflows is the new integration layer, right? So these seeing a lot of that, and again, that's a big theme at a re-invent this year. I'll see the performance is key graviton to all the processor stuff and, and, you know, it's lambed and old serverless, but as you move up to the stack where there's actual agility and modern applications that need to be built, whatever they are, you need to have this programmable cloud scale, but the customization on workflows and machine learning and AI. So this is all beautiful for everyone to think about, but now they have to implement it. So how might your customers and prospects consider expanding their offerings with Salesforce in the cloud? Is there, is there a certain playbook that you see, is there a situational awareness that's needed? How would you advise your customers will want to consider expanding, uh, their portfolio in their, their apps and workflows with Salesforce? >>Yeah, that's a fantastic question. So, John, and I'm going to start with, again, going back a little bit to what is Salesforce and who are we as a company? So in as much as we started talking about Salesforce as the number one CRM platform was SAS, we've also acquired some companies and invested in a lot of different, uh, elements of businesses, uh, Tableau NeoSoft and velocity more recently, the slack acquisition, and they're all slightly outside of our platform in terms of capabilities and what we intend for those to deliver. So our customers have a lot more options in terms of what it means to partner with and invest with Salesforce. Uh, slack is a great example of where that becomes a communications mesh and infrastructure that allows them to integrate, uh, technologies, applications, workflows, et cetera. So you want to rethink almost what is Salesforce and what does it mean in your enterprise? >>And then coming back to, to the core of what we do, a lot of how we enable our customers is here's an environment. We enable these very quickly a customer's access to the environment right away. They can set up testing environments, sandboxes, start playing with workflows and really reimagine what that environment is going to look like for their internal users and their engagement with these applications. So yes, we have runbooks we have playbooks, but we've also got enablers in the form of applications. We have a huge application market, if you will, where customers can download different accelerators and try those. We've got a huge network of partners that have delivered rich value added applications. So in most cases, our customers are going to find someone's already created the use case or the application or the workflow they needed. And maybe it's a case of just announcing that a little bit or updating it a little bit, or creating the integration to an in-house system already. So it makes it very exciting, but also makes it a very quick start to solve a problem. >>Oh, Nielsen, you guys have a great opportunity with the cloud and cloud scale. Obviously, companies successful Salesforce is well-known, but as data and governance has to be more agile, more secure often, that sounds counter-intuitive, but this is the big deal that's happening right now, where you need the leverage, the scale you need to have it secure, which you'd think needs to be protective, but making it more permissive is agility. This is the core theme, your, your reaction to wrap up, >>Uh, all great points and yes, to be the data isn't useful if it's entirely locked up. So at Todd, you bring the user to the data they have access to, and that data to provide them value. But especially in a, we'll put a government lens on this. On the government side, the data is ultimately what our government entities are stewarding. So yes services, but that data is imperative. So our customers understand the value of that data and then also how to not just extract value from it, but how to shepherd and steward the security of that data very well. So for us, it's the ability to get that data to the right users, allow them to construct their business omission flow on that data. But the data has to persist has to add value, has to be available for analytics and so on >>Nielsen. Jardeen vice president of north America solutions engineering at Salesforce. Thanks for coming on the cube and, and sharing your story and congratulate a big opportunity ahead for you guys. Congratulations. >>Absolutely. John, thank you so much. Enjoy the rest of the week. Okay. >>It was coverage of eight of us reinvent 2021. Um, John for a, your host. Thanks for watching.

>> Announcer: Live from San Francisco, celebrating 10 years of high tech coverage, it's theCUBE! Covering VMworld 2019. Brought to you by VMware and its ecosystem partners. >> Okay, welcome back everyone live CUBE coverage here in San Francisco at VMworld 2019 I'm Jon Furrier, my co-host this segment, Stu Miniman. 10 years Stu it's been a long run. A lot of CUBE alumnis around, we got two here. Honore LaBourdette Vice President go-to-market Telco Edge Cloud at VMware. And Lakshmi Mandyam, Vice President Product Manager, go-to-market Edge IoT at VMware. Great to see you, thanks for coming back. >> Thank you for having us. >> So, I think IoT's going to be a pretty big deal. 5G, jury's still out on 5G but it's looking good. Look, if Pat Gelsinger said it's going to be great, it's probably going to be great. What's new? Give us the update. >> Well, just a commentary on 5G, when you say you think it's going to be great, there is some skepticism in the marketplace because if you go back and look at all the different generations of cellular technologies, it's the odd numbers that have never been successful and the even numbers that have, from a monetary perspective for the telcos. Interesting thing about 5G is because it's such a system-oriented technology, that we do believe that it's going to enable a lot of the capabilities associated with IoT, right? So there's an interdependency between 5G and IoT and IoT and 5G that I think is going to make 5G more successful than any of its predecessors. >> All of us are nerds that geek out on RF and physics. I mean 5G has a lot of skeptics but they're deploying 5G, it's not like it's a vaporware. There are deployments going on in the United States, certainly outside of the United States. So it is real, it's actually happening. The question is what will be the impact to the network effect and what's it going to enable, which will certainly impact the industrial IoT and IoT markets. >> Well so one of the things that's happening with the deployments of 5G isn't just the innovation associated with the spectrum technology of five generations of mobile technology, right? There is an entire transformation happening with the core infrastructure of the telco network. And there's an interdependency there as well, right? So as the telco's software define the infrastructure on which they run all of their services, that then extends all the way through from the cloud to the core to the edge for all of the radio access and everything associated with 5G. >> And we're also seeing on the IoT side that there's a similar transformation going on, 'cause right now when you look at kind of example manufacturing, right? There's a real siloed infrastructure, siloed use cases and people are not able to scale and especially when you start to see the business impact that IoT's actually going to have, because most of the data that's being generated is actually being generated from the devices at the edge. And there's a viewpoint that a lot of the workloads that are actually being generated for the enterprise are actually going to be executed at the edge and when you take those things into consideration, it's really important to have an infrastructure that scales. And just like we've seen in other areas where a sprawl of infrastructure is really not going to be be effective in terms of delivering business value. That's the same problem that we see here. >> That brings up a good point. You mention systems view. I think this is interesting 'cause I think this business model innovation, as well as the architecture. I mean, you become what you're known for in the old infrastructure. You don't want that legacy to be dictating the new things, you mentioned backhaul. That's a topic that people talk about in the cellular business. You got the radios, you backhaul through a network, go to the core. But now you're getting at something different where if you're going to be backhauling, which implies moving packets around, moving data has become a really big problem or concern because the cost to move data, the physics involved, latency is a requirement. Processing at the edge becomes the new architecture. >> Yeah, I think the old paradigm was around moving data to the compute but the new paradigm is going to be moving compute to the data, especially on the edge and the IoT. And this is where managing that whole compute infrastructure is going to be really, really important. And that's what, you know, the VMware Telco Edge-- >> Well, we're going to ask Pat Gelsinger a question that riffs off what Dave asked years ago. Stu, I don't remember what year it was, 2012 or 2013, Dave Vellante asked Pat Gelsinger, "Is security a do-over?" You know Pat's very opinionated, he's like, "Absolutely a do-over." Really risky, bold take to say at that time, turns out he was right. The question I want to preview with you guys is, is the architecture a do-over? Because if you think about it, there's new capabilities, you mentioned the systems view. Is there an opportunity, not to throw it away, but like, just rethink it, get a second chance at deploying large scale edge, cloud, versus backhauling through the data center, maybe backhaul through the cloud. So, to me it's just kind of feels like a do-over. >> Well, there's very much an opportunity to, I'll say evolve rather than to do it over, right? 'Cause do-over kind of implies everybody's going to throw out everything that they have. But when you think about the beauty of software is that now we can have inherent security in all of the aspects of the software defined network all the way through the edge. So if you happened to hear Pat's keynote this morning, you know, he put up a slide of all the different security vendors across all of the different types of, the different areas of the clouds, the different cloud technologies and basically said that there is an opportunity now for us to do for security basically what we did for compute and networking and storage, by software defining that. And so that's the opportunity for security is to leverage all of what you can do with a software defined approach and have security be intrinsic to everything from the cloud to the core to the edge. And specifically for IoT. If you think about Lakshmi's comment about pushing the compute to the apps, and pushing the compute where the applications are going to be, or the user is going to be, I think there's going to be a greater requirement for security actually at the edge than even what we see in the cloud today. >> Lakshmi, you know, one of the comments we made is if you looked at the keynote this morning, the virtual machine is not the center of the the discussion. There's, you know, VMware, now plays a lot of places where that VM is not at the center. If you can bring us up to speed, when VMware looks at the edge architectures and how they're going to work with enterprises there, you know, what are the solutions that you're going to bring to bare out of the portfolio? >> Yeah so we have a, you know, when you think about IoT and there's all these things that are out there, oftentimes when someone installed it in the factory they didn't even update the factory settings, the threat surface of that is just expansive. And so, what we're doing with the product that I'm going to talk about, Pulse, we actually life cycle manage these devices, software updating, making sure that they're compliant with IT kind of security and other requirements. And so, what we see is the architecture, is we see kind of this managed infrastructure at the device level, that then feeds into kind of the thin edge, and you heard Pat talk about it this morning, right? Pulse and NSX and VeloCloud for the thin edge and that kind of, it's a continuum really. You can't define-- >> It's difficult to do. >> It's a continuum of compute ranging from very small footprint all the way up to our Dell EMC announcement. BMC on Dell EMC, sorry. >> We actually did some original research back when, you know, GE was putting together their industrial internet and one of the biggest stumbling blocks we saw is that huge gap between the IT and OT, they don't talk. You talk about the telco, that telco role doesn't tie in to the traditional data center world. It's at the edge and some expert comes in and does their piece but, you know, smashing these worlds together is a real challenge. >> What's interest-- >> Oh, I'm sorry. >> I was going to say 5G is the technology that I think is going to create the catalyst for those technologies to come together, right? So you have the enterprise edge, you have the industrial edge, and you have the telco edge. And over time, the more the telcos start pushing compute out to their edge, enterprise push compute out to their edge. And then you have all of these industrial IoT devices. The definition of the edge is going to begin to blur. >> I think this is, I think the IoT, industrial IoT, is probably the most important tech story this generation. It doesn't get as much play as AI, 'cause AI kind of sounds cooler, attracts young kids to be coders, but IoT is really the most important thing because think about the industrial IoT, the threats, cyber threats, cyber security. One hole, one hole and the attacker is in. Just to speak security and critical. >> I actually think it's beyond that because I don't know if you heard Pat talk about his definition of the edge, which is actually that merging of the digital and physical worlds. When you think about that, most of human problems can be solved by great technology, technology for good. And so you think about industries being pushed to produce more, 70% more food with just 5% extra land, or you know, carbon emissions, all of these problems which with good visibility control and management can be solved and that's really what we're trying to do-- >> Yeah, but good intentions, I understand where Pat's coming from. It's good, it's good marketing on the stage but the reality is, is when you roll out the tech to make that happen, if you don't have that security intrinsically pulled in, this means that you got to have the zero trust. But IoT is a different animal on a thin edge, than it is, say a data center. So like, it's just one of those things where we're watching 'cause it's just, there's so many, the service area is so large. >> Yeah, and in fact, one of the things that we're doing in terms of incorporating security in the management is looking at hardware Root of Trust right down to every device that's managed and being able to, you know, to attest whether something is legitimate or not. So we're rolling all of those things into our technologies. >> So, Pat brought up the telco. Earlier on, we were asking some of our guests about the business model on telco, because, you know, telcos have been struggling, they had owned infrastructure. So when you own infrastructure, it's hard to go out of business unless you actually run out of cash, but they had plenty of working capital, but they got to get their business model. You guys have any thoughts on as telco starts to modernize, whether they migrate and modernize or modernize and migrate with cloud, what's hopeful things that you can share that's showing business models for telco? Because 5G, someone's got to pay for it. It's not inexpensive to roll out 5G. >> So, what we're seeing with our telco customers is that they're finally beginning to realize that they can actually accelerate their time of revenue with new services, with a software defined infrastructure. So, I think when first we met, you know, we were in the early stages of developing the market for telco with software defined. But we've crossed the chasm now to where we have over a hundred discreet telcos that are in production on our platform. And so we have proof points that says, "Okay, now they can accelerate time to new revenue". What we're focused on now is helping them extend that out to the edge. And as you know, partners with Lakshmi, we see the telcos as a route to the enterprise market for our edge an IoT solutions. Right, so there's an opportunity for telcos to participate not just in the cloud economy but the edge economy. In terms of the business models, the change is driving the business model transformation. You know, the technology is driving business model transformation. But it's an excellent point. Its operating models are transforming, business models are transforming, and interestingly enough, commercial models are transforming as well. >> Lakshmi, you know the app side's going to be where the growth is now. Getting back to the good thing, once that infrastructure is stable, the apps can come out. So the application development, the microservices, that kind of to me connects that Kubernetes piece to it. That is an opportunity to telco providers, right? >> Yeah, absolutely. I mean again, it's all about deploying and managing applications right at the edge and so the infrastructure that we're building, with all of the announcements that you heard and the features that we're adding into the product profile is really about how do you deploy and manage these applications right down at the device level and that's really where I think it's going to transform. >> A lot of action. >> A study came out just yesterday that the edge market is targeted to be a $4.1 trillion market. >> Yeah, it's going to be huge. >> That's trillion with a T. >> Yeah, it's going to be huge. >> So, wondering what you can say about the ecosystem. Because, you know we've looked, VMware has always had ecosystems but it's many ecosystems, and you've got a cloud marketplace, and there's lots of different customers so will some of your existing partners go along with this, is it building out a new suite, you know, when you look at the edge and IoT? >> I think there will be a group of partners that come along, for sure, but, you know, IoT, especially when you think about industrial IoT, it is a new space of players and we're building that ecosystem and trying to figure out what customers want, right? Because, it's an ocean, you could boil it but that may not be the right approach. >> Yeah, I mean, it's like you said, there's a T on the TAM. It's a huge, huge TAM. It's going to be a huge application boom and IT culture's got to evolve from that perimeter-based security to a surface area that's out there, that's one light bulb on a factory, that IP enabled, could be a malware entry point. It could be something for a worm to get in there. >> Well, it's really like any device. What's that, any-- >> Any device, any application, any device, any Cloud. >> Any cloud, I think in IoT, it's anywhere. >> Anywhere, exactly. >> Totally, totally. >> And to your very accurate point about the security associated with that, right? In the telcos, actually owning that last mile. Right, so when we talk about $4.1 trillion of opportunity, and the need to develop an ecosystem that can support those edge and IoT solutions, the telcos really are in the cat seat to take advantage of that because they own that last mile of customer access, customer influence, they own the cell towers. Right, so as we push compute out to the radio access, telcos have an opportunity to participate. >> Honore, I want to get your thoughts while you're here and Lakshmi, if you can chime in, that's cool too. I'm doing a big editorial on industrial IoT national security. This all kind of leads into policy, potential regulation. You know, I mentioned tech for good, tech for bad is neutral how it's shaped. I'm assuming you guys are going to take a shape in some of those conversations. Any thoughts on regulatory things happening because with cyber security, cyber war that's happening on our digital turf, the telcos are in a prime position to assist and help shape that, you guys can do that. Any thoughts on how you see that, that conversation? Anything you'd like to add? >> So VMware is participating in consortiums associate with those very topics. And of course we are developing technology with an appreciation and understanding respect for the governing agencies across every country as it relates to privacy and security. And so I'm sure, you know and it varies from country to country. In terms of what data you have access to and how you deliver that data and what you do with that data, that's a really hot topic in Washington these days, right? >> And software helps too. >> Software does help, right? You have so much flexibility with software but at the same time you have so much risk that you have to prevent. What we've learned is, it's really about the individual's information. Whether that is a device or an industrial device or an end user or a potentially, a point of presence. It really does depend on what you do with that data, who touches the data, and where is that data going to be housed. And so each of the different countries, each of the different telcos, depending on their location are adhering to the governmental requirements for who does what with the data. >> Yeah, it's interesting, we just did a power panel in our studio, we had experts come in talking about called the "Cybergeddon" scenario, which is a hacker taking over not just malware and getting penetrated with worms and getting access to data, but actually taking over physical devices to harm people. So, this is kind of a nation threat thing. It's not so much a corporate thing, but you know, there is a shaping opportunity here when we're trying to identify where, you know, good governance, at least from a policy stand point, tech are coming together. More and more, it's happening. >> And of course, we participate very actively here in the U.S., right? Because we are a U.S. headquartered company. We try to participate where we can in some of the other countries for the regulatory agencies. And we're a part of the world economic forum. So through that vehicle, you know, through that consortium we're also trying to influence, for good, of course. We just recently, we announced this morning that we acquired Uhana and Uhana is an artificial intelligence machine learning and specific to telco, it will observe, analyze and report back on data all the way to the consumer level across a radio access network. And the one question we get asked from every telco that we do business with is, "What do you do with the data?" And of course, we don't do anything with the data. In that particular technology, we're observing it but we don't necessarily touch it. But you're exactly right, I think it's something that's going to be a hot topic for a time, awhile to come. >> It's an opportunity for tech for good. Guys, thanks for coming on, sharing your insights. Great to see you again, thanks for coming on. Great insights, a lot changing and certainly very relevant, the IoT Edge, telco, IoT's all happening, AI is a part of it. It's theCUBE, live coverage. I'm John Furrier with Stu Miniman. Be right back after this short break. (light techno music)

(uptempo orchestral music) >> Welcome to theCubeConversations here in Palo Alto, California. theCube Studios, I'm John Furrier. The co-host of theCube, and co-founder of SiliconANGLE Media. Junaid Islam is the present CTO of Vidder that supports the public sector as well as the defense community as well as other criminalist oriented security paradigms. Expert in the field. Also part of coming Vidder that's doing a lot of work in the area. Thanks for sharing your time here with us. >> Well thanks for having me. >> We had a segment earlier on cybersecurity and the government. So that was phenomenal and also, we talked on the impact of hacking on business. So the number one issue on the boardroom agenda is security. Data, security, it's a big data problem. It's an AI opportunity, some things that are coming out. Embryonic, it's an early shift. Security is a challenge. The old model, the firewall, a moot, doors, access, you get in then you're done. It's over, it's a criminalist world. People can get access to these networks. Security is screwed right now. And we generally feels that. So the question for you is the Enterprise and in business as we're looking to show up security. Isn't it a do-over? >> Yeah, yeah, I think like other industries. Whether you talk about the PBS. Yes, yes, where you talk about computers shifting to the data center and then the cloud. I think last year or this year, Gartner said 100 billion will be spent on security. I cannot believe anybody who was involved in that 100 billion dollar expenditure is happy. In fact we have something interesting. Security expenditure has risen consistently over the past five or six years, and cyber attacks have also risen consistently. So that's not the kind of correlation you want. >> And they're buying anything that moves basically, they're desperate so it seems like they're like drunken sailors. Just like give me something. They're thirsty for solutions. So they're groping for something. >> Yeah and what we're seeing is a couple of things. One is the attackers have gotten much more sophisticated. And they basically can bypass all of the existing security appliances. So what we need is a new approach or a new security stack that really fits both the architectural environment of American companies where they use Clouds and data centers, and they have employees and contractors. But also cyber attacks which have gone much more sophisticated. The classic cyber attack used to be connecting to the Server remotely or stealing a password. We still have the classics but we have some new ones where we have malware that can actually go from the user's device to inside the network. And you find that existing security products just don't work well in this environment. >> What are some of the do over ideas? >> Absolutely malware, we see it ransomware, super hot, the HBO example recently. They didn't given, who knows what they actually did. They weren't public about it but actually they maybe get a little bit in but these are organized businesses. They're targeting with the Sony hacks well documented but again businesses, I'm not always funded this. And then you got the move to the clouds. Couple dynamics. Cloud computing. Amazon has done extremely well, they're leading. Now getting a lot more of the Enterprise. They won the CIA deal a few years ago over IBM. And you see a lot of government Cloud rocking and rolling, and then you've got the on premise data center challenges. That's the situation of the customer then now you have potentially an understaffed security force. >> Well actually so, I think let's start with that point. In terms of our theme of a do over. Talk about that first and then let's talk the techno part. I think one do over that America needs is security has to move out of the IT department, and become a stand alone department reporting ideally to the executive staff and not being on it. I think one of the unfortunate things is because security is a cost center within IT, it competes with other IT expenditures such as new applications, which are revenue generating. It's very hard to be a cost center asking for money when there's a guy sitting next to you who's doing something to make money. But unfortunately, unless security is properly funded and staffed, it never happens. And this unfortunately is a chronic issue through all US companies. One of the things we've seen that has worked for example in the financial world is most financial institutions, probably all now security is a pure organization to IT, that helps a lot. This is actually not a new idea, this was something the intelligence community probably started-- >> Cost structures, it's just the cost structures. Reduce the cost is the optimization behavior. What you're saying is just like applications are tied to top line in revenue, which gives them top line mojo. You got to think of security as a money saving table stake. >> That's right. >> People are losing money. The cost are now becoming obvious, in some cases crippling. >> Yeah so I think people need to think of security as fundamental to the life of a company, number one. I think the other thing that needs to happen from a security perspective. Now that we've broken off this entity is it security needs to become a threat based or risk based. Too much of security in the United States is based on compliance models. Unfortunately cyber attackers do not follow that model when they want to attack us. They basically work outside the model and come up with creative ways to get inside of organizations. >> Basically blindside. >> That's right. >> The company. >> I can't tell you how many meetings probably all where I meet the security team and they're totally busy just going through the list of 20 or 50 things that they're are supposed to do. So when you talk about attack vectors. They say you know that's really great and I know it's important but we can't get to it. So this is another important shift organizationally. First you break it out. Second, get focus on something that's important. once we have that we get to the next part which is technologies. And right now what happens is people buy a security point product for different networks. One for data center or one for Cloud. And this doesn't work so I think we have to move to security solutions that can work across hybrid environments, and can also work across different roles. I think that is critical and unless we get that in technically. >> Yeah, this is the thing with Cloud and (indistinct talking). I want to bring this up. I had multiple change to sit down with Andy Jassy. The CEO of Amazon web services. Fantastic executive, built a great business there. On his mind, what's been important for him for many years has been security, and Amazon has done an amazing job with security. But that's in the Cloud. Now Andy Jassy and Amazon thinks everyone should be in the public Cloud. Now they have a deal with VMware but they're just powering VMware's on prem in their Cloud. It's not really a VMware issue but Amazon's world is raising the public Cloud. But they've done really, really good on security, but yet most of the buyers would say hey, the Cloud is unsecure I can't trust it. So you have the dynamic between the data center on premise resource. So people default to the behavior of and leaving here with the on premise. Or I'll put a little bit in the cloud, a little bit of workloads here. A little bit in the Microsoft. Google's got some, I'll keep the tire on Google. But they never really leaving the home base of the data center. But yet some are arguing and Dave Vellante, my co-host on theCube talks about this all the time. There's actually more scale in the Cloud. More data sharing going in the cloud and that the cloud actually got better security. So how do you see that resolving because this is a key architectural opportunity and challenge for Enterprise. >> Actually I think there's an optimal model which is if you think about what the data center gives you. It gives you a lot of visibility and physical control as in with your hands. The problem is when you put everything in the data center. You don't have enough people to manage it all properly. The Cloud on the other hand gives you a lot of scale but you can't actually touch the Cloud. So the optimal mix is imagine your encryption and access control solutions live in your data center. But what they control access to is to Cloud resources. So you can actually, if you're just open your mind conceptually. >> So it's like saying, it's like segmenting a network. You're segmenting feasibility. >> That's right, so now you don't need a gigantic data center because what's in your data center which can be a lot smaller now are things like your identity-based access management solutions. You can keep your cryptographic elements. You can have your HSM, things that generate random numbers and search there. But now this is actually can be very tiny. It can just be a rack of gear. But through that rack of gear, you can have very fine control of people accessing Cloud resources. And I think this idea of building, it's not so much a hybrid network, but it's a notion that a small physically locked down asset can control a lot of virtual assets. It's gaining mind share in the banking world. In fact, just this summer, there was bank that implemented such an architecture where the control elements were the Cloud were their FFIC data center. And it include, it basically managed access to Amazon VPC and it worked well. >> So interlocking is a strategy. I can see that, by the way I see that playing out pretty well. So I got to ask the next question which comes to mind is that sounds great on paper. Or actually in certain situations it might perfect. But what about the geo-political landscape? because Amazon has people that develop on the Cloud that aren't US citizens. So the government might say wait a minute, you got to only employ Americans so they got to carve out and do some whatever weird doings with the numbers to get that certification. But they need data centers in Germany because the German government wants certain things. So you have geo-political issues now on the companies. How does that affect security? Because now a Cloud like Amazon or a multinational company has two things going on. I have multiple offices and I'm operating in multiple geo-political landscapes with these regional centers. The regional clouds, or at Amazon they're called regions. >> So actually Amazon has actually done a great job. They basically have their global market, but they also have data centers now which are only opened to US persons in US companies like Globe Cloud. As well as well as they support the C2S which is the intelligence communities Black Cloud, which is basically off net so I think now-- >> John: So they're doing a good job? >> Yeah, they're doing a good job but the key thing is how you use that resource is really still up to the enterprise. And that's where enterprises have to get good at creating the architecture and policies to be able to harness Amazon's compute capacity. Amazon, is the foundation but you really have to finish off the solution and the other thing going back full circle to your first question. Unless the security team has their freedom and the mandate to do that, they'll actually never get there. >> So it's staffing and architecture. >> That's right. >> Well they both architecture. It's one's organizational architecture. Debt funding and one is more of a hardcore virtual and physical touching. >> And you know what I put in the middle? I'd say know your risks and develop counter measures to them. because if you go to that security team and you say you have to build a counter measure for every attack. That's not going to work either. A company has to be realistic is what is really important? Maybe it's the data of our customers. >> So the answer to the first question then obviously is yes a security do over is needed. But there is no silver bullet and you can't buy an application, it's an architectural framework holistically >> Junaid: That's right. >> That everyone has to do, okay cool. So the question I have on the Amazon, I want to get your thoughts 'cause it's a debate we have all the time on theCube is. And certainly Amazon has competitors that say, Amazon is really not winning in the enterprise. They've got thousand of Enterprise customers. They are winning in the Enterprise so Oracle is catching up, barely in fourth place. But trying to get there and they're actually making that transformation. Looking pretty good, what more now assume that Oracle will (indistinct talking). But Amazon has one great gov Cloud deals. So they're convinced the government that they could do it. >> Junaid: Yeah. >> So to me that's, my argument is if the government is winning with Amazon. It should be a no brainer for the Enterprises so this comes back down to the number one question that's been holding back Cloud growth. Whoa, security, I don't want to put it in the Cloud. How real is that objection now? 'Cause the knee jerk reaction is you know what, I got an on prem, I don't trust the Cloud. But it seems like the Cloud is getting more trust. What's your thoughts on that objection? >> So one of the things as even though when we use the word Cloud, generically or Amazon generically. Amazon has evolved a lot in the last three to four years that I've been working on it. The number of embedded tools in Amazon is vast now. If we were having this conversation two years ago. The notion that granular encryption modules would be there and Amazon is apart of an offering. It would have been science fiction or the fact that-- >> More that S3 and AC2, what else could there be? >> That's right or they have things like virtual HSM. They have embedded identity and access control tools all there so I think first of all. All of the building blocks that you would want are there. Now unfortunately there's no short cuts. Amazon is not going to do the work for you, you still need a staff that knows how to use digital certificates. You still need your own identity based access control system to manage access of your employees and contractors and people in India to these assets in the Cloud. But having said that, we now actually have a model that is much cheaper than the classic data center model. That's basically usable. >> I'm smirking some people think I'm an Amazon web services fan boy but besides the fact that I love the company. They've done well and there's so many new services, and they literally have been skating rings around the competition. If you look at the complexity that they have been dealing with and the innovations. So the outputs put that out there. I'm a little biased 'cause I think they're doing a great job. But now, the game start to shift as Amazon continues to add more services. Welcome to the big leagues called the Enterprise and government, which they're doing some business in now. So the question is besides Amazon, those other guys. Verizon, the Telecos have really trying to figure out what to do with over the top for years. Now they're also powering a lot of multi tenet workloads as well, including their own stuff. So telecos and service providers out there, what are they doing because they're still critical infrastructure around the world. >> Actually, I think if we just use Amazon as a reference point or example. Amazon initially didn't worry about security but then over the last few years, worked hard to integrate security into their offering. We're now in the early stages of seeing that from for example carriers like Verizon. Where in the past Verizon was saying first secure yourself then in the last two years. Version okay, here's some products and services you can buy. But now where we're heading is they're trying to make the network inherently secure. A lot of the basic components like device matching to identity matching basically making that apart of the underlying fabric. So I think the good news is as-- >> So they're making advances there. They have networks. They know networking. >> So the good news is as bleak as it all seems as we are making significant progress as an industry and as a country. Having said that, my only and warning is you still need an executive team. A security team that knows how to leverage all of these components and pull them together. And that goes back to having a risk based approach and protecting the most important things. I think you can do that, I think the tool set that's come out now is actually pretty sophisticated. >> So final question, I want to get your thoughts and we can end the segment and then we'll take a little bit about Vidder, your company. But I asked Pat Gelsinger, CEO of VMware at VM World just recently about the security duo 'cause Dave Vellante asked him years ago. He said absolutely it's going to be (indistinct talking) so Pat Gelsinger has it right again. The guy is like Nostradamus when it comes to tech trend. He's a wave guy from Intel, so he gets the waves. But I asked him about that question again this year and I'll send the tip out on Twitter. I'll put it out on Twitter, I'll make a link to it. He said that 5G is going to be the big kahuna of the next 30 years. He thinks that as 5G starts to get out, it's going to develop 10X number of antennas, 100X of bandwidth, new spectrum allocations, 100X new devices, they're all going to be connected as well. As you mentioned we're a connected world. This brings up the edges of the network where he says, "Next thirty years is going to be massive build out." So okay, 5G is coming. Industrial IoT, IoT internet of things is happening. How is this going to change a security game because now you have networking and you see VMware. We're doing NSX and Cisco has been trying to the Enterprise figuring out the virtualization of network level. Everything comes back down to the network. Is that where the action is because it seems to me that the network guys have to figure this out. And that seems to be the point of reference in terms of opportunity. Or is it a challenge or is it moving up the stack. How does all the networking changes happen? >> So for IoT, we really need two things to happen. I think one is we actually don't have a security standard for IoT devices. And specifically the issue is malware. IoT devices and softwares made worldwide and I think one of the biggest policy weaknesses we have right now is there's no minimum standard. This needs to be solved, otherwise we're in a lot of problem but in parallel to that. There is a lot of technical development. One of the things that's happening in the networking world is for the past 20 years. We were driven by what's called a network VPN of Layer 3 VPN, it's your classic VPN, that connects a device to a server. The problem with that is if you have malware on the device it gets through. So there's this new kind of VPN which is an application VPN or we call it a Layer 4, which is basically a softer process in the device tool. A softer process in a server. So that's the new model, which is-- >> They're making them as dumb as possible and go up the stat. >> Not so much-- >> There were guys that are going to roll-- >> I could have used different terms. I could have say make the app network application aware so that it only lets the applications get through. Not any kind of connection, so I think that is something. >> Well the networks have to smarter and enable the smartness. >> So smarter networks are happening and it's an area that I worked in. It's very excited. >> John: I don't mean to offend you by saying dumb network-- >> But the application but to be clear though that's just one piece of the puzzle. The other piece of the puzzle which unfortunately is a little bit lacking is there's no standards for IoT software today. And unless we have concepts like secure boot, that is the software can't be tampered with. I think I've unfortunately there's a bit of risk but I'm hopeful-- >> And then IoT for folks watching, there might be any inside baseball. It's a surface area problem. There's more points of attack vectors, so we talk about the compliance thing. >> Not only are there more attacks, by and large IoT devices are made outside of the United States. Physically they are made in China and a lot of the software comes from India. And there's nothing wrong with that, but the global supply chain provides plenty of opportunities for cyber attackers to inject in their code. And this is something we need to watch very carefully and then like I said-- >> So this is actually one of those weird derivative results of outsourcing that American companies have realized that's a problem. >> Yeah so. >> Is that right? >> Yeah so it's something we need to watch carefully. >> Okay, thanks for coming on the theCube. Really appreciate you sharing your perspectives. Talk about Vidder, you're the president and CTO. You guys in the security business. Obviously you're an expert with (indistinct talking). We'll have you back and multiple times. I'd love to get your company as we follow all the security trends. We have a cyber connect conference with Centrified coming up in New York. We're covering gov Cloud AWS and other players out there. What's Vidder doing? What's the company do for products? How do you guys sell? Who's your customers and what are the cool things you're doing? >> We've developed a access control solution based on a new standard called software defined parameter. And there's two things that are unique about it. First with technology like software defined parameter. We work in the Cloud in the data center, but more importantly, we're able to stop existing attacks and emerging attacks. So things like password theft, credential theft of server exploitation we stop because we don't want to allow connections from unknown devices or people. The other thing is say you're known, and you connect with server. We basically look inside your laptop and only allow the authorized process to connect to the server. So if there's malware on the device, it can't actually make it through. >> John: So it shuts down the malware. >> That's right. >> John: So you're trying sneak through. >> That's right, the malware. We can't stop the malware from getting on the device, but we can make sure it doesn't get to the other side. >> So it doesn't cross pollinate. It doesn't go viral. >> That right so a lot of the stuff we do is very important. We work with a range of-- >> You have government, obviously contracts. I'm sure you have that can't talk about but you do right? >> Yeah we do a little bit of work with the government and we're just start working with Verizon, which is public. Where they wish to create services where malware actually can't go through the connections. So we're doing exciting stuff and we're-- >> Enterprise customers at all? >> Yeah, yeah we have banks. >> Who are on high alert. >> That's right. >> You guys do tier one or it's the houses are burning down, you're there. So we do banks and we're just started doing some work in a hospital were again it's (indistinct talking) compliant, and they need to make sure that data doesn't leave the hospital. >> So what's the number one thing that you guys have as ransomware something that you solve. What areas do you guys being called in? What's the big fire bell, if you will? They ring the bell when do you come in? What the thing, just in general? >> Our number one reason for existing is stopping attacks on application servers or service that old data. That's our focus. So if you have data or an application that someone is after. We will make sure nobody gets to that data. In fact, we'll even make sure if there's a spy, or insider attack, who comes into your organization. They'll only be able to what their allowed to do and won't be able to do anything else. >> So on the weekly Fox that was big. Would you guys have helped there is they were a customer or is that just different thing? >> I know we could have helped because one of the things that happened is they used their server exploit to basically propagate through their data center. So we probably wouldn't have done much on the initial exploit, but we would have kept it from going deeper into the system. >> And they hid for four months and they were poking around so you would have detected. >> Yeah and we certainly would have stopped all the poking around. Because we basically, you can think of us as an identity based access control mechanism. So based on your identity, you can only do very specific things. And in their case, they had the identity of the user. We wouldn't have let them do anything except maybe just go to one website. >> Yeah you would have shut them down. They should have been doing business with Vidder. Jay thank you for coming on theCube here for theCubeConversation in Palo Alto, California. I'm Jon Furrier with theCubeConversation. Thanks for watching. (slow orchestral music)

>> Announcer: Live, from Las Vegas, it's The Cube covering Interconnect, 2017. Brought to you by, IBM. >> Hey welcome back everybody, live here in Las Vegas at the Mandalay Bay IMB Interconnect 2017, it's The Cube's exclusive coverage, I'm Jon Furrier, my co-host Dave Vellante, our next guest is Ramesh Gopinath who's the VP of Block Chain Solutions and Research, welcome to The Cube. >> Thank you. >> Block chain front and center, super exciting, it's been trending pretty much throughout the conference, really is an amazing story, big props from the CEO and (mumbles) and a variety of the executives. Watching is instrumental in the future of business, we had Don Tapscott on yesterday really talking about the revolution of what this is all about and he's the author of the book, The Blockchain Revolution, but if blockchain is a game changer shift to how the business will be operating in the future, so just to level step, just give us the one on one blochchain, versus bitcoin, and why IBM is going in this direction and where it came from. >> So blockchain is all about increasing a trust in business transactions. This is something we recognize about a couple of years ago when a small team of us started playing around with, you know, the technology behind bitcoin, right. And we look at it and said hey look, here's an opportunity for the first time for companies to share some information in a secure fashion with each other and, in addition, run some workflows or business processes on top. That was an eye opener for us, it immediately told us this could have applications in all industries, right. And so what do we do first? So we said let's play around with this a little bit. We looked at existing technologies out there for blockchain and to pick the platform you tried a few use cases and realize, oh my god, there is a whole lot to be done to get a blockchain for business, right. And that's how we started this journey, almost a year and a half, two years ago. And we decided to explore that. >> And the key distinction Ramesh, and we know from just highlighting it here for the folks, is bitcoin is a currency that has a blockchain, so it's powering bitcoin. You're talking about something more fundamental for business which is using the blockchain technology for businesses and what bitcoin is to blockchain, business is to blockchain from your standpoint. >> That's right, and also I think the blockchain is really, the inspiration for it comes from bitcoin perhaps, that's a good way of thinking about it. But today for example, the hyperledger version one that was announced earlier this week at this conference is dramatically different from the underlying blockchain and bitcoin in other platforms out there, right. Because it's really built primarily based on requirements that we have gathered by working with hundreds of clients in financial services and supply chain, in public sector, et cetera, and realizing what levels of confidentiality, what levels of privacy, what level of permissioning, you know, who participates in the transaction. All of that is what has led to, what we call the (mumbles)- >> John: Okay somebody's got a question. >> John: I got a follow up on that, but go ahead. >> Uh, just one more point on this but you can follow up on my point. Give us the status of blockchain today for IBM. Lay out the solution because you move from research now to the exclusions group, you have customer action going on, sales motions, solutions motions. What is the architecture, what does it look like, what is the solution today from a blockchain standpoint? >> So, just, you asked what are you doing at a high level, essentially we have three broad, big investments. One is everything to do with you know, opensource in a hyperledger project, I mentioned that. Then there is you package that into a platform, IBM blockchain, high security business network, that was also announced earlier this week. And the third layer is again what you asked about solutions. What we have been doing over the last year, year plus is, in fact, it's an interesting journey, we started out with what I call blockchain tourism, there were a whole bunch of POC's if you want to call it that, starting with financial services initially, but in gradually other areas, like supply chain, in healthcare, et cetera. Towards the middle of 2016 we saw a transition, at least on the financial service side people were started to talk about, hey now I understand this technology and what it's capable of, let's talk about production deployments, right now I'll give you a few examples as we go along. >> Dave: So, I want to go back if I can a little bit and just get somewhat didactic for a moment. My understanding is there's three attributes, I'm sure there are many more of blockchain which are really relevant, and especially as it relates to the security if I may, it's distributed obviously, and it's been said it's virtually unhackable unless 50% of the stakeholders agree to collude, and then there's no need for a trusted third party so it reduces the threat space. Are those sort of accurate statements and when somebody says, well it's virtually unhackable, you know you tweet that and somebody says, well everything's hackable, help us understand sort of those fundaments of blockchain and why they're relevant. >> That's right, so the way I think about it is a blockchain is a trusted database. Now why is it trusted? There are three properties, I'll get to it, kind of overlaps with what you mentioned. The first one is, any transaction you do onto the database, anything that goes in it basically is done in a nonreputiable fashion. If I do something I can't say, "I didn't do that," so that helps. What goes in, you know you have that property. The second piece is, whatever goes in goes in through a vetting process, we will call it the consensus. There is some sort of a chat between parties before something goes in. Therefore, I can't unilaterally do something onto the blockchain, right, I can't, somebody else vetted what I did, that increases trust. And the third piece is, once it gets in there it cannot be tampered with. We say it's immutable sometimes, and what is that based on? There's a whole lot of topographic math behind it, but at a high level there are two aspects to it. One is, there are multiple copies. So if I change something, if I hack into mine, I'm inconsistent with what others have, so that's one. The second is, the transactions are chained together, blocks of transactions are chained together where a fingerprint of one block is put into the next. What that means is, if I tamper with the block say 15, a long blockchain, all transactions after that are invalid, I have to do a lot of work to fix it, so it's very very hard to tamper with. Of course, as with security, there's no such thing as nothing that is hackable, right, so collusions et cetera, potentially can happen. But the key is, significant increase in the level of trust is the way I would put it. >> Dave: Great, okay, and so now if we can get into sort of how people are specifically applying this technology, you guys started with the hyperledger, you know, open project, but can we get more specific in terms of how say organizations are actually deploying blockchain? >> Ramesh: So we are still running a blockchain in productions since September 6th, right, so it's been only four months. In fact that blockchain is more than a half a million blocks today, so let me tell you what that solution is so you get a sense of, and it's very prototypical in terms of, you know, all solutions that I've dealt with so far across industries. The use case is a following, so you have a buyer, you have a seller and you have a financer, that's IBM. We basically finance, shotgun financing of, think of it as channel financing or inventory finance. What happens typically is, the buyer basically orders something and the seller essentially gets approval from us to say, okay, yeah we can basically send it to the buyer. A few days go by, IBM has already paid the seller basically, just like credit cards (mumbles) consumers. A month later basically we go in, say hey look, guys, time for you to pay up and they say, look, we didn't even receive the goods. So this entire process, what I just described you can think of as a workflow where these three parties are sending messages back and forth. The way we do it in a blockchain is, this entire workflow is captured as a sequence of transactions that are registered on the blockchain. Now how does this help us? Take the example I gave, proof of delivery. If when the logistics company delivers it at the buyer's site, it's recorded on the blockchain. There is no need for a dispute. And typically disputes, basically puts a lot of capital, you know, it holds up a lot of capital right. Capital inefficiency is the problem we're after. In fact, after six months of deployment I can tell you essentially a significant improvement in terms of the time savings as well as elimination of disputes. >> John: That's a great efficiency. Who's buying, who's actually implementing it customers-wise. Can you name names? >> Ramesh: Yeah, so, examples are the, let me give you a few in financial services. So we are working with Salus Bank which does, you now, five trillion dollars worth of foreign transactions every day. They are building a netting engine called Salusnet a solution called Salusnet, and we're working with them on that. Another example is the work that we are doing with Northern Trust, where basically they have a private equity administration blockchain. In fact, it's a very interesting one because it also involves the regulator as a part of the blockchain, so that's a second example. A third one is the one we announced in January with the Depository, Trading and Clearing Corporation DTCC, and that one is for credit debitors, life cycle management, in fact all the examples if you notice, there is a life cycle like I gave in that example earlier of buying till all your goods are delivered, payment is made, those life cycles, those processes are captured as trusted processes on a trusted data store. That's basically blockchain for you, right, that's financial services. Maybe I'll touch upon two more examples to complete the story. Supply chain. I walk into a store and buy some sliced mangos at Walmart, is it safe to eat? To answer that question you need to know the provinence. Which farm in Mexico did it come from, who all touched it, who washed it, who processed it, et cetera, all the way till it got to the store. That sort of information sharing does not happen today in the supply chain. We believe with the block chain that is possible, that allow us to get a good sense of where things came from, making consumers more comfortable. Similar story can deal with pharma too. I pop a pill, I want to be sure that it's safe to have. In fact, as you know the World Health Organization says in Africa, every year a hundred thousand kids die of counterfeit malaria drugs alone, right, so imagine if you could capture these sorts of supply chain flows on a blockchain you could make dramatic improvements. >> Dave: Diamonds provenience is another one, and it's not just blood diamonds. >> Ramesh: I'm more excited by the providence of food and pharma, but diamonds- >> But there's tons of fraud in the diamond supply chain. >> Ramesh: Absolutely. >> And that's really where they're, you know- >> John: Well this brings up the whole business model disruptions, so, what are you guys seeing for the kids of conversations? Because you're getting at the business model impact significantly one, you're reducing costs of transactional costs for new measurement systems, aka blockchain, and you have all the methodology behind it, but everything from music to art to content, I mean, payments, this is like a game changer. >> Absolutely, and I think from the point of view, you know, in all of the use cases I've seen, the sort of value to the ecosystem is clean and obvious, and so you can immediately say, aha, this is going to happen overnight. But the reality is basically, it's a complex ecosystem play though. So, for example, in the supply chain use case, food safety, you need to have the farmers, the entire value chain involved, participating in some fashion on the blockchain. That is not easy to do. So there is, how do you sort of set up ecosystems is a key part of- >> John: What's your strategy there? I'm going to ask Marie when she comes on, but what's the strategy with ecosystem? Because you want to jump start this, you got to prime the pump big time. >> Ramesh: Absolutely, so there are many ways to solve this, but one approach we have taken so far, and it's obvious in all the sort of partnerships that we're working on. Take for example food safety. One way to start with it is to start with a big retailer, like a Walmart. They bring in the suppliers, and the suppliers bring in the farmers. Take the case of what we are doing in container shipping. So basically, movement of containers from point A to point B, we're trying to completely digitize that process, this is a project that we're doing with Maersk. Why Maersk? They are 20% of the container shipping market, right? But in all of these cases I got to be very clear, we are not building a solution for Maersk or for Walmart. We're really building something for the industry, because food safety, you want to solve it for the industry. Just by helping Walmart along. >> John: That's why the open source thing is critical here. >> That's right. >> John: And the update on that, it's all open source on which components, or is it all open source? >> Ramesh: So the open source is all about at the platform layer. The solution itself, you know not everything in the solution is going to be open source. But the key point I was trying to make is that you go off the sort of significant anchor tenants in the ecosystem that draws others into the picture, but that's still not enough, you need to make sure there are economic incentives for others to join in. >> John: So to put it together, tie it together, the ecosystem strategy is, take an industry scope and try the rising tides floats all boats kind of approach. So adoption's critical. >> Absolutely correct, absolutely correct, and I think again I can use food safety to make that point. Think about it, right? So there is, let's say, a spinach problem, we had it in 2006. So you find a problem, you trace it back to a source. Let's say Walmart is the store in which somebody bought it and it was traced from there. That's not good enough. From the source it went to many other retailers. So you need to be able to track down and pull all of them off the shelves. Therefore you have to go for an industry solution. >> John: I can imagine the healthcare thing would be even more impactful too, I mean, financial services pretty obvious, transactional stuff there, but healthcare, so many different variations of supply chain and transactions. >> Ramesh: Absolutely, so in a way, the way I think about it is in a financial service everybody had a hunch this could be big, but supply chain, we've come a really long way, I think this is going to be the space which will have the most destruction, and its interesting considering when we started my first conversation with folks, whether it be a Walmart or Maersk, first question is, "what is blockchain?" We've come a long way in the last say eight, nine months. >> John: You guys get so excited where you're kind of pinching yourselves because you can get kind of euphoric about some of the disruption impact. It's just mind blowing to think when you're talking about food, the food industry and healthcare. You got to get tampered down a little bit in some realism, is there that IBM excitement internally share some color internally within IBM the excitement, and then you got to be getting realistic, a lot of the clients rolling it out to kind of got to walk before they can run. >> Ramesh: Yeah, so, the way I would state it is if you had asked me a year ago do you expect to be in the shape we are in today, I would have said no way. I've been shocked at the pace at which this has been moving both from the point of view of the technology itself, maturing of the technology, and in fact when we say blockchain is here now, so that's at the technology layer level, but in terms of use cases, think about it, there are a number of financial services institutions that are talking about production deployments late this year, early next year. In fact, when we did our own IBM Institute for Business Values survey, came back with fully 15% of those who were surveyed, there were like 400-odd banks plus capital market institutions are going to be in production by end of this year. When I heard that in September I still didn't believe it, but I am beginning to believe it now. >> Well it's interesting I think, the cultural shift is that technologists from computer scientists to practitioners that are technologists, they get it. They can see what blockchain does, so I think as people get more and more momentum, that's the fly wheel that you guys are open for and it's happening. >> That's right, in fact I'm also a techie at heart, but in terms of conversation (mumbles) I never talk about technology anymore because the thing is, there are only two concepts in blockchain. It's trusted data across companies, trusted business process. Everything else is detail. >> John: Got it, Ramesh, thanks so much for sharing, great conversation, formerly with IBM research, now Vice-President of Blockchain Solutions at IBM, great to interview, great insight, blockchain revolution is here, check out our interview yesterday with Dom Tapscott yesterday on YouTube, The Blockchain Revolution, his book really kind of lays out some of the big disruptive game changers. This is The Cube, doing our share of blockchain right now, bringing content in blocks and chunks, not yet blockchain enabled. I'm John Furrier, Dave Vellante, be back with more after this short break. (synthesized music)

>> Covering VMWorld 2015. Brought to you by VMWare, and its ecosystem sponsors. Now your hosts, Jon Furrier, and Dave Velante. >> Okay, welcome back everyone, we are here live in Muscone North Lobby at VMWorld 2015 San Francisco, this is theCUBE, SiliconANGLE's flagship program. We go out to the events and extract the signal from the noise. I'm John Furrier the founder of SiliconANGLE, joining my cohost Dave Velante, confounder of Wikibon.com Our next guest is Pat Kelsinger, CEO of VMware. Welcome back to theCUBE. Again every year. >> Hey my pleasure. >> Six years now in a row. CUBE alum in all our CUBEs. Thanks for taking the time. I know you're super busy. Thanks for-- >> My pleasure. >> Number one for the record. Number one guest. Number one CUBE. >> That's on the record. >> Yeah I was bugging you guys yesterday, that you tell that to all your guests. >> It's definitive that you are number one. >> Now you're the only one who's outlast us. 34 minutes is a record and your handlers were so mad at us. But that's okay. Thanks for coming on. >> My pleasure. >> So keynote was great. Just everyone who didn't watch the keynote, go check out the replay. It's on siliconangle.tv, on VMware.com under vmworld. Really good speech this year. I like how you laid out the future. Really set the canvas for the next generation. So was that kind of by design? Were you thinking hey I want to paint the picture. A lot of talk about VMware in the news that recently, speeds and feeds, Vcloud, all this product stuff. On day one. What was the purpose of the speech? >> Yeah and it really was as Rob and Carl and I were sort of architecting the speeches, and this whole idea of run, build, deploy, secure, and how we were trying to carry that theme through everything that we were doing. And having me kick it off would have been very traditional, right, and we says well what would it mean if I was wrapping it up with a much more visionary and future looking speech and ask Carl to set context. And the more we tried that idea, right it really sort allowed me to I'll say go to a different altitude, and you know rise up from some of the more techy things that I love but to put it in a context that's much more industry and futuristic. So the more we played with the idea, the more we liked the idea, and given the good response from this morning, I think it worked pretty well. >> And it brings a long term perspective, versus the short term myopic you know, what we can do and stock prices, all that stuff today so congratulations. But one of the things I noticed was this asymmetric messaging around the future. And I want to ask you because I asked you three years ago, Pat is hybrid cloud the resting, full destination or is it just a way station in between public, private cloud. Oh it's the future. So hybrid cloud I've been asking all the guests. What is hybrid cloud and what is it today, because clouds are different. Every company will have a different cloud. Is hybrid cloud a product or the outcome of deployment or engineering like distributed computing? >> You know clearly from our perspective is, you know it is the culmination right, of bringing together these capabilities. And to deliver to our users the ability to treat a range of different clouds, you know from SAS providers, through what they're doing in their own private data center, and be able to treat that in a homogeneous way. That they can look at the set of resources, they can manage across those secure, across those environments right, and in many cases have increasing flexibility of how they run their workloads and you know scale them across. That is the vision of what we're off to build. That is what unified hybrid cloud is about. Now obviously underneath that right, there's a whole lot of work to get done. And from us and a product perspective, hey that means our management products got to be heterogeneous. Right it means that they networking layer, hmm there's some things I can do when it's Vcloud Air on the other end of the wire, and you know VMware stacked within the data center, and you know wasn't that cross cloud VMotion, wasn't that cool? You know to me that was my favorite demo of the show. And then in other cases, boy there's more limited things. And we are starting to demonstrate even connectivity at the core networking layer into Amazon, right and one of the work bench will show let me show you how we can extend the NSX connection all the way into an Amazon node, I mean so those pieces are part of that broader set of vision, but we want our customers to be able to say, VMware you are my best partner to deliver that complete set of cloud services that I require. >> I like how you brought in the history lesson there, brought us some early intel days, and I want to ask you this question, the futuristic question around what's possible, because really you laid out the future. And I want to bring in kind of the Moore's law analogy. I just interviewed Jerry Chen at Graylock, and he said I was talking about cloud, and VMware's role potentially in the future, whether it's openstack today or containers tomorrow, he said, "Is this technology the best "of the last generation, or the first "of the next generation?" And I want you to take that quote in context. Talk about what Moore's laws could look like in the cloud, in the future if you assume that the market's going to be you know 10x improved, 100x improvements in these areas. How does Moore's law apply to the cloud, because the cloud is an accelerant? >> Yeah, and you know the beauty of Moore's law, you know I mean if you go down to it's fundamentals, right it's not a law in the physics sense. Right it's an observation in the economic and technology sense, right, this doubling every two years. And the power of the cloud though, is it allows you to benefit from both the scale, right you know the performant capabilities, as well as the economics right, because it's saying you know you can scale out, as well as scale up in each processor capacity. And that really is the magic of the cloud, and you're able to do that dynamically. And essentially I can rent the biggest computer in the world now I mean for ten bucks I can rent the largest supercomputer that's ever been built. It might be only for you know a few milliseconds, right but the ability to aggregate essentially an unlimited scale resource for my application you know is just fabulous. So you really benefit from Moore's law both economically as well as the scale. Each node gets bigger and faster as well. And that ability right is why every cloud is built on x86 is because you see this engine of innovation that has not stopped. >> So do you see creativity being unleashed on that, because I mean I know there's all these different themes of them over the years of unleash your creativity, but unleashing now think about that concept of unlimited as you were pointing out. What are some of the things that you see, and you guys on the VMware team see around what creatively is going to get done in that new world? >> Yeah and you know clearly some of the things that we described here as well, I mean some of the things with respect to security. Right you know these are very much game changing, and you know people as they build more and more of their mission critical environments, you have to address it. You know enabling some of these forward looking analytics environment that we described, and very much the proactive future that we described that you know, I mean you know it's not like machine learning and some of these AI algorithms. I mean these are 30 year kinds of investigations, and now you've just got this enormous compute resource that I can even take some mediocre algorithms with extraordinary amounts of data, and start bringing some incredible insights that predict behavior and opportunity. Right I mean those are exciting capabilities. If you start going into different domains as well, where all of a sudden you're, I mean you can ask almost any question, and get an answer very quickly to those when you've put your services and capabilities into the cloud. So it's so many ways, you know we're just creating you know this next phase of innovation that, as we described the proactive phase of the internet. >> You said recently, "We've committed ourselves "to the heterogeneous management strategy, "which allows us to be managing "in a multicloud environment both on and off premise, "including AWS and Microsoft Azure." Two questions. How much of AWS and Microsoft Azure are you managing today, and do you expect to be managing in the future? Let me start there. >> Yeah, and you know today we have a small amount that is being managed by a lot of customers. Right and you know it's interesting because almost every customer's asking, right but it's putting those CMP layers in, those cloud management platforms layer using those in the day and many cases it's I want to do a little bit, so I know that it works. Right I want to know that the proof point is there, that I can use it in that capacity. But what we're finding for customers is okay I need the promise of where I might go, but I got so much work to do just to operationalize my own private cloud environment that the reality of how much they're really doing in that way is fairly modest. Right now we're not bothered by that. In the sense that you know they are going through this fundamental transformative phase, and most of the private cloud automation for our management stack today is in this phase where they are going from ITIL, CMDB, trouble ticket dominated environments to self-service automated provisioning catalog environments. And they are so deep into that transition that taking advantage of some of the heterogeneous cloud things is sort of number four on their list and they haven't clicked off number one two and three yet. But that promise is definitely there, and we're seeing an increasing amount of customers taking advantage of it. >> So the second part of my question, and I want you to help me square a circle. So we've heard Joe Tucci in the past talk about the advantages that some of the big hyperscale guys have in homogeneity, and part of VMware strategy over the years has really been to get VMware out into the cloud service provider space. At the same time we live in this heterogeneous world, so how can you achieve that vision, with all that heterogeneity? What is the underlying strategy and technology that enables you to do that? >> Yeah in different layers of the stack, you need to do different things. And for instance at the lowest layer, cross cloud VMotion, that's going to be homogeneous for quite a while, right? (laughs) Just is, right and there's lots of things in terms of copying page tables, synchronizing page tables. Fail forward, fail back environments. >> You've got your best people working on it, but. >> Yeah. >> It's not trivial. >> And yeah right and that kind of stuff. But at higher levels of the stack, depositing work loads, observing work loads, getting telemetry on work loads, okay there you can be highly heterogeneous, so really I'd say the higher you are in the stack, the more heterogeneous you can be. Right the lower you go in stack, you know to deliver a value proposition, right you know it's exciting the customers, the more homogeneous you tend to be. And obviously technologies tend to sediment down over time. So our commitment is you know, a broader and broader set of cloud capabilities across other party clouds, and of course we want to enable as many of our partner clouds as well, and those technologies. I mean one of my most exciting products NSX, right you know one of the fastest growing segments, is into service providers who are running that as part of their cloud as well. So that's going to build some of those hybrid networking capabilities into non-VMware hosted cloud environments as well. >> You talked in your keynote about your Cinderella career. Is VMware your glass slipper? >> Is it my-- >> Is it your glass slipper? (all laugh) >> Well you know I'm loving what I'm doing right now. It's a great place to be in the industry. I don't expect to go anywhere else, so you know at this point in time I'd say yep sure is. >> Well so you were asked yesterday on CNBC, you know they want to know about how you touch consumers, and you gave some very good examples of ways that you power companies that power consumers. You also gave some internet of things, I would call internet of things examples, you said, "There are 7,200 objects orbiting the earth." And IT in your bloodstream were two, sort of two examples that you gave, so you upleveled your keynote this morning. Wondered if you could talk about VMware's role in powering things like the internet of things, and things like consumer technologies. >> Yeah you know one of the, maybe my favorite examples right now on some of the internet of things that we're doing, one is a medical devices. You know heart monitors, you know being able to pain medication injection devices and so on. It's ends, you know the next generation of those is going to be managed through a cell phone. Right you know so you'll be able to go to your cell phone, you click oh, my pacemaker kicked me three times last night, right kind of things. But those devices need to be managed and secured. So how's the next generation going to be done? The leveraging, air watch and our horizon suite. We're going to be doing that kind of capability. Right and those things are just, you know I mean we're talking about people's lives, and changing the lives, but then it's also about the telemetry that goes on the other end. You know my wife has a heart monitor in right now. Just, and you how painful it is to get access to that data? Right you know. >> It's my heart. >> Yeah and you know why is it so hard. It's going to be hosted in the cloud, and we're building those clouds for those environments and to me, some of those applications, you know it's not just about going to an IT guy and let me tell you how you can save a bunch of money. You know let me go to that IT guy and say let's go partner into your line of business and say how can we change your business? Right and that's really where I try to end this morning's speech is very much, right that is the role that everybody at VMworld gets to play. You're the smartest tech guys. Go be the evangelists, the entrepreneurs, inside of your business. Because you are the person who's going to enable them to take advantage of these core trends to change their business. >> Yeah one thing on that point is that people looking at, we talked to some, a lot of customers and CIOs, and they're looking at the different vendors. Oracle, you know they're looking at VMware, wherever, IBM, HP and everyone else. But the trend that we're seeing is kind of pivoting off the appliance and engineered systems concept and end to end, you mentioned homogeneity and heterogeneous at the top of the stack. They want an end to end solution. They want it to work so it can kind of outcomes you described. In order to have that they need developers, and you guys have an ecosystem that has a big focus on dev ops. So very geeky company, a lot of engineering at VMware. A lot of people know what dev ops is. Is that servicing up at the top of the senior management team where dev ops is top priority? The API-ification, these kinds of things. Can you share some of the mindset and some of the conversations you're having at the senior level with dev ops and developers. >> Yeah I find the conversation, by the way I'd be very interested in your guys' perspective on this. You know with one of the recent dev ops conferences recently that we had a team go and attend, and we're presenting some of our products and value propositions there, and a survey was done of how many of those were IT folks versus how many of those were developers. And what was the answer? >> Ops dev. >> It was almost all IT folk. >> It's, yeah. >> Operations guys. >> Right because do developers really want to carry pagers at midnight? Right you know it's. You know, no. Right you know and there's this funny-- >> No they're too busy writing code. >> Exactly, right. >> They write code at night. >> And so there's this aspect of hey, they want programmable infrastructure, right because they don't want some long, trouble ticket kind of model to go get infrastructure, so they want API access that's automated, self provisioned and so on. But do they really want to take over infrastructure operations? And that the answer to that is no freakin' way. >> Yeah, no way. >> At that point of way. >> Because they you know, so it's very much they don't want to be bottlenecked right, they want to be enabled by infrastructure right for it. And so a lot of this dev ops is how do we bring those two worlds together so the developers can go do what they want to do, right develop, innovate, and at the pace of that that they are never limited by any of the infrastructure deployment or lifecycle management capacities. So as we're having those conversations, it's very much how can we present more and more API access to a more, and more automated set of our products. And that's why we've embraced openstack. That's why we've embraced containers. It's why we've done the cloud foundry. Right it's why we continue to have our own traditional vsim interfaces that we've supported forever. We're just going to give them more API surface area than any other guy on the planet, and the next thing that comes up, right if the Volante development environment emerges, hey we're going to support that. If they get more than 10 developers on it, we'll be there. >> Right, CrowdChat. >> You support CrowdChat APIs, so I got to ask, the development's a good point, I love that point, because IT is where your wheelhouse is. Certainly in the ops side of VMware's install base. But now you bring up the developer community, those guys have embraced containers. That's changed the game a lot, because now you can abstract away the complexity you guys can provide, and kind of harden that top. So how do you see that market? So two questions. Containers, comment on the containers. We asked that last year. And where's the line on the hardened top? Where's the line where developers, hey don't look here you're cool, programmable interface whatever you want to call it, infrastructurous code, where's the line on the stack? And then develop this new developer ecosystem that's developing? >> And I think as I said last year when I was on the CUBE that you know we see the container trend as a more significant, a long term one even than openstack. Right and I think it really does become the biggest issue in the future for developers because it's an application value proposition right and at that level, how can I make application development, deployment, lifecycle management in a more effective and productive way. And software does eat the world, and everybody needs to become more productive in their application experience. And then the hardened top question. You know it's a great question because developers, do they want to reach, I mean do they want to go worry about infrastructure? No they don't, but they don't want to be hindered by infrastructure right at that level, so the question is can we present in a light way, open way that they can take care and not worry about oh how do I get enough storage for this. How do I secure that network, how do I connect to this other thing, what is my directory service. We're trying to present an infrastructure that gives them the surface area that they require, so that they don't need to go down the stack. Because they're not going down the stack because they want to but because there isn't a flexible, easy way for them to get there another way. >> To them it's just like smashing rocks, I mean they don't want to do that. They want to program some code. >> That's right you know. They want application code, interface code, you know things that create business value. So our job is to present them a capability that makes those things easy. And that's what the Photon platform announcement was all about, making it easy. Making it easy for traditional IT. >> NSX is playing a role there, too, big time. >> Oh yeah absolutely. NSX you know we're doing the bindings in the storage layers. We're absolutely bundling in the right way so that IT gets visibility into that environment so they can manage and secure it, you know deploy it, but the developers get the flexible interfaces that they like as well and really, sort of, if you remember the old Oklahoma movie, can the cowboys and the farmers be friends? Right you know and that's our objective is to bring those two worlds together. >> So I got to bring up the cloud native question, because we're seeing this transition now to, Dave and I were talking in theCUBE on the intro here about the old mini computer trend and how that spawned a whole level, you know you had Sun, HP, back, and Intel writing chips and this x86 servers. The whole SAP, workflow, ERP systems, manufacturing got innovated, all this new automation happened. So we're seeing cloud native take on a similar role there where you're seeing people at the services level, the big consulting firms want to deploy more apps fast. And you mentioned the apps are taking over Hollywood. So where do you see the pressure point for the services-- >> Bird Man or Angry Bird, I don't know. >> So that trend's happening right now. So what's the pressure, what's holding back that explosion of new services that are going to roll out, consulting services, big firms rolling out apps for banks and every vertical, as you said they're being disrupted. What in the infrastructure is holding back that? >> You know I think that, and part of the reason we're so excited about some of the Photon announcements in that sense is because it is too hard and too slow today. You know at the, it's heavy, complicated. Right the IT processes aren't nimble, and you know self service environments are minimally deployed. Right you got the application guys over here, hey they're innovating at pace, and these scale outs, container oriented microservices architectures that are beginning to, they're not scalable, they're not manageable, they're not secure. Right so the problems are so obvious on both sides of it. Right but it's these worlds are coming together, some of the early embodiments you know of the new applications et cetera are so thrilling that people are really are moving into the space. So the fundamental limiters right we think are, you know an agile, light weight infrastructure with the right set of northbounds APIs that give programmatic access to the infrastructure. And on the other end is a developer environment that can take advantage of those, that's highly productive with the level of software skills. I think ultimately you know on that side of things, you're going to be developing, you're going to be limited by software development capacity. And that's what we are finding when we meet, and particular Pivotal meets with the largest companies in the world right their biggest issue is, do I have the software development skills to do that? Can I be productive at that level? You know the app is now more important than the color and the warrantee on the car. You know that's the shift that's occurring. >> Pat I want to ask you a couple public policy questions. I don't want to get into politics, but as a CEO in Silicon Valley, you know you hear folks like Donald Trump sort of saying well we should really clamp down, he goes after Zuckerberg for example. >> Build that wall. >> Right build a wall. But he goes after Zuckerberg in particular. I'm talking about H1b visas so. What's your take I mean presumably, you want more talent, we educate talent, what do you say as a CEO of a public company regarding educating and then keeping folks here? >> I think it's wonderful that the world wants to export our top talent, their top talent, to the United States right. And almost-- >> Right, thank you. >> I mean please. >> Where's your best. >> Absolutely. >> And smartest people. >> And the fact that we want to close our doors to the most talented human beings on the planet that want to come and work, develop, create the next generation of startups in our, right in our communities and on our soil, right to me that's a stupid policy. >> Yeah great, and then the second question. You mentioned self driving cars. I wanted to ask you about, you know for decades, millennia, we've seen machines replace humans. And we're seeing now that GDP grows, you know income grows, but the average, median income has dropped from $55,000 down to say $50,000. From '99 til today. Yet you guys and I'll be interested in you, too John. You live out in Silicon Valley. And it's like okay well there's always opportunities. Because you guys live in a virtual reality field, and you're positive thinkers right. So are you concerned as again a CEO of a public company, and somebody who's pretty prominent, about that effect and what's the answer? Is it more education, and what can companies like VMware do to support that? Not that trend, but to reverse that trend? >> You know at the heart you know you mentioned education, to me that's so right, you know so foundational at that level and increasing you know STEM education, beginning at the earliest ages, you know we need more software programmers. We need more women in software programming in particular. I mean we have almost half the population is excluded from that potential right today by the very low entry rates into those areas. We got to fix those issues. The quality of U.S. education at the secondary level, you know at the collegiate and university level's unmatched on the planet, right. You know at the high school and junior high level it's pretty weak on a world scale. Those things are fundamental, got to be fixed in that respect. I also believe that you know many of these technology shifts are actually going to enable a, let's say a renaissance of some of the communities that some of the areas that have been not available for American workers and this whole idea of, I'll say just briefly mention in my speech this morning, the idea of customized, automated manufacturing. Well as that emerges you know now, right if I can have highly automated, customized manufacturing, you know 3D printing, et cetera that occurs, boy you know I believe we will see a resurgence of some of the manufacturing sectors you know back onto mature market, to soils, to back onto American soil as well. Because it isn't just going to be a cost arbitrage question anymore to find the lowest cost labor on the planet. Transportation costs become you know, essentially a barrier to export. >> And you're unlocking like, see big data as an example. You're unlocking new jobs around data analysis, and development. >> Right. >> You know that's very much what we see as one of the huge opportunities associated with internet connectivity in a global basis, whether it's health care, education, or unlocking new jobs-- >> Internet of things. >> I mean machines like airplanes, throwing off data, they're going to need people to analyze that. So I got to ask the question along with Dave, is that you know when I was talking with some young college kids and my wife and I talked to our two youngest, who are, one's in eighth grade, and one's a freshman in high school, around how to think about technologies. Not just oh you need to be computer science and have two daughters, so obviously we're talking to them about hey don't be bullied out of computer science. If you love technology there's plenty of things. So what's your take on that? What's your view on different opportunities for young people? Women, boys, girls. All across the board. It used to be just programming, electrical engineering, computer science. And now it's kind of like the two pillars. But now what new opportunities do you see to a young physics major, or someone in high school who just loves technology? Because they're all connected. They're all on Instagram, they're doing their thing. >> Uh-huh. >> They're breathing technology, they're natives. >> Yeah. >> So what academic, what things might inspire young people? >> Yeah I think some of-- (coughs) Excuse me. You know some of it is taking down some of those, I'll say false barriers or perceptions as well, and John Hennessy, president of Stanford, you know he and I have a great relationship, and Stanford now is almost 50/50 in the incoming class for women into computer science. I mean obviously they put huge emphasis on that, and so they said you know getting away from first player shooter games as the first touchpoint of technology and into much more social experiences has changed the perception, right, of you know females into that sector. Excuse me. You know I've still got two more days of VMWorld to go. I need a voice. >> The CUBE is tiring. >> We might outlast you this time. You beat us last time, 34 minutes that was a record. >> I think it was longer. >> It was more like 50 minutes. >> Yeah, right at that-- >> But there's a lot of >> opportunities to your point. I mean there's not just programming. There's a lot of interdisciplinary stuff now. >> Yeah and that was exactly the next point I was going to make. Because computer science and programming ends up being cool in every aspect. Right you know whether you're in economics. Hey you know I mean you got to build models. Hey if you're in the medical field. Hey there's an increasing amount of telemetry, big data, other things coming into it. Every field is touching on it, and to me that cross disciplinary view of the impact of technology, into every segment and every interest, becomes more and more powerful going forward. And I think some of those are the ways that we can actually change the perception even right that everybody, it's sort of like, imagine if you would go to school, and you would say our school does not teach math. I mean would you send your kid to that school? Of course not. >> Only if they had programming on top, instead of math. >> Right but... And they say, but you know your daughter, she wants to be a psychologist. But you're not going to teach her math? You know it's a basic life skill. She got to learn math. That is the essential of technology and computer science going forward. It is a basic life skill that we have to teach everybody, and have to participate in it regardless of what field that may pursue. >> So we're getting crunched on time here. I want to ask you my final question. Dave probably may have a final, final question. Seems to be the new thing going on here at the CUBE. This year at Vmworld, what do you think will happen this week when you look back down the road? You've got a great career here. Looking great with VMware, we love working with you on the CUBE here and the keynotes. What about this year is so transitional for VMware? Is it the fact that now we have full dev ops, now the cloud is mainstream? Is it the fact that the company's transforming itself into a whole, another power. Is it because the ecosystem, all of the above? What's your take on this year's kind of inflection point for VMware? >> Yeah I think you know obviously at the front of the list for us is this whole unified hybrid cloud. And really getting people to view, because you know three years ago, cloud was ooh I'm an enterprise customer. Now it's really how can I take advantage of these resources that will be heterogeneous across multiple environments and the value proposition that we can be and everybody needs to be doing that. So that's one of the takeaways. You know second is the engagement into the developer community, the Photon announcements are probably the most second, the second most important shift to thinking that we've delivered here. Maybe the third is you know the thing that I'm always thrilled about when I show up at VMworld is the ecosystem. You know friends and foe alike here show up to talk about how they're collaborating together to bring more from the things that we do, and that's what's just so energizing about it. When you go around the show floor it's just overwhelming. >> And you've got investors too after the VCs. Top tier VCs, NEA's here. Graylock, XL, all of them are here. >> Well a lot of startups coming out of the woodworks, too. >> Oh yeah. >> They launch at VMworld. >> Absolutely. >> You know it's just wonderful that way, and this ecosystem effect just couldn't be more powerful, and alive and well than it is here at the show this year. >> And we're six years here, we love watching the transformation. We've seen everyone. Palmer has produced that first slide that was there and now here so great job. >> Yeah and thank you for expanding our space this year. That's really great. >> Hey you know what. >> Us going north. >> You know. >> You said you were in a corner of Moscone North. I mean I said this is the CUBE. (all laugh) I think you mispositioned that. >> We were in the lobby, the big lobby of Moscone North. >> Half the lobby. >> We have the lobby. >> Thanks for everything, we appreciate six years. And great to see you every year, and thanks for taking the time out of your busy schedule to share your insight, >> Oh thank you I love it. and the data, and your vision, and product news. Thanks so much. >> Thank you. >> Pat Kelsinger here live inside theCUBE, here in San Francisco, Moscone North lobby. We got the big lobby here, and of course it's Vmworld 2015. I'm John Furrier with Dave Velante. We'll be right back. (light rock music)