>> live from Barcelona, Spain. It's the key covering KubeCon Cloud, Native Con Europe twenty nineteen by Red Hat, the Cloud, Native Computing Foundation and Ecosystem Partners. >> Welcome back to Barcelona, Spain >> were here of the era, and seventy seven hundred people are here for the KubeCon Cloud NativeCon, twenty, nineteen, Off student. My co host for the two days of coverage is Corey Quinn, and joining Me are the two co chairs of this CNC event. Janet Cooper, who is also thie, suffer engineer with Google and having done the wrap up on stage in the keynote this morning, find Lyle's a senior staff engineer with BM where thank you both for joining us, >> Thank you. >> Thanks for having me. >> So let's start. We're celebrating five years of Kubernetes as damn calm laid out this morning. You know, of course, you know came from Google board in over a decade of experience there. So it just helps out the state for us. >> Um, so I started working on communities since before the 1.4 release and then steal a project Montana today. And I feel so proud to see, uh, the progress off this project and its has grown exponentially. And today we have already thirty one thousand contributors and expect it to grow even more if you can. >> All right. So, Brian, you work with some of the original people that helped create who Burnett ease because you came to be and where, by way of the FTO acquisition, seventy seven hundred people here we said it. So it's, you know, just about the size of us feel that we had in Seattle a few months ago Way Expect that San Diego is going to be massive when we get there in the fall. But you know, talk to us is the co chair, you know, What's it mean to, you know, put something like this together? >> Well, so as ah is a long time open source person and seeing you know, all these companies move around for, you know, decades. Now it's nice to be a part of something that I saw from the sidelines for so, so long. I'm actually... it's kind of surreal because I didn't do anything special to get here. I just did what I was doing. And you know, Jan and I just wound up here together, so it's a great feeling, and it's the best part about it is whenever I get off stage and I walked outside and I walked back. It's like a ten minute walk each way. So many people are like, Yeah, you really made my morning And that's that's super special. >> Yeah. I mean, look, you know, we're we're huge fans of open source in general and, you know, communities, especially here. So look, there was no, you know, you both have full time jobs, and you're giving your time to support this. So thank you for what you did. And, you know, we know it takes an army to put together in a community. Some of these people, we're Brian, you know, you got upstate talk about all the various project. There's so many pieces here. We've only have a few minutes. Any kind of major highlights You wanna pull from the keynote? >> So the biggest. Actually, I I've only highlight won the open census open. Tracing merge is great, because not only because it's going to make a better product, but he had two pretty good pieces of software. One from Google, actually, literally both from Google. Ultimately, But they realize that. Hey, we have the same goals. We have similar interfaces. And instead of going through this arms race, what they did is sable. This is what we'LL do. We'LL create a new project and will merge them. That is, you know, that is one of the best things about open source. You know, you want to see this in a lot of places, but people are mature enough to say, Hey, we're going to actually make something bigger and better for everyone. And that was my favorite update. >> Yeah, well, I tell you, and I'm doing my job well, because literally like during the keynote, I reached out to Ben. And Ben and Morgan are going to come on the program to talk about that merging later today. That was interested. >> I've often been accused of having that first language being snark, and I guess in that light, something that I'm not particularly clear on, and this is not the setup for a joke. But one announcement that was made on stage today was that Tiller is no longer included in the current version of Wasn't Helm. Yes, yes, And everyone clapped and applauded, and my immediate response was first off. Wow, if you were the person that wrote Tiller, that probably didn't feel so good given. Everyone was copping and happy about it. But it seems that that was big and transformative and revelatory for a lot of the audience. What is Tiller and why is it perceived as being less than awesome? >> All right, so I will give you a disclaimer, >> please. >> The disclaimer is I do not work on the helm project... Wonderful >> ...so anything that I say should be fact checked. >> Excellent. >> So Well, so here's the big deal. When Tiller, when Helm was introduced, they had this thing called Tiller. And what tiller did was it ran at a basically a cluster wide level to make sure that it could coordinate software being installed and Kubernetes named Spaces or groups how Kubernetes applications are distributed. So what happens is is that that was the best vector for security problems. Basically, you had this root level piece of software running, and people were figuring out ways to get around it. And it was a big security hole. What >> they've done Just a component. It's an attack platform. It >> was one hundred percent. I mean, I remember bit. Nami actually wrote a block post. You know, disclaimer of'em were just bought that bit na me. >> Yes, I insisted It's called Bitten, am I? But we'LL get to that >> another. This's a disclaimer, You know, There Now you know there now my co workers But they wrote they were with very good article about a year and a half ago about just all the attack vectors, but and then also gave us solution around that. Now you don't need that solution. What you get by default. Now something is much more secure. And that's the most important piece. And I think the community really loves Helm, and now they have helm with better defaults. >> So, Janet, a lot of people at the show you talk about, you know, tens of thousands of contributors to it. But that being said, there's still a lot of the world that is just getting started. Part of the key note. And I knew you wrote something running workloads and cover Netease talk a little bit about how we're helping you know, those that aren't yet, you know, on board with you getting into the community ship. >> So I work on the C gaps. So she grabs one of the sub fracture that own is the work wells AP Eyes. That's why I had that. What post? About running for closing covered alleys. So basically, you you're using coronaries clarity, baby eyes to run a different type of application, and we call it were close. So you have stay full state wears or jobs and demons and you have different guys to run those clothes in the communities. And then for those who are just getting started, maybe start with, uh, stay last were close. That's the easiest one. And then for people who are looking Teo, contribute war I. I encouraged you to start with maybe small fixes, maybe take some documents or do some small P R's and you're reputations from there and star from small contributions and then feel all the way up. >> Yeah, so you know, one of one of the things when I look out there, you know, it's a complex ecosystem now, and, you know, there's a lot of pieces in there, you know, you know, trend we see is a lot of customers looking for manage services. A lot of you know, you know, I need opinions to help get me through all of these various pieces. You know what? What do you say to those people? And they're coming in And there's that, you know, paradox of choice When they, you know, come, come looking. You know, all the options out there. >> So I would say, Start with something simple that works. And then you can always ask others for advice for what works, What doesn't work. And you can hear from their success stories or failure stories. And then I think I recently he saw Block post about Some people in the community is collecting a potential failure stories. There is also a talk about humanity's fellow, the stories. So maybe you can go there and learn from the old those mistakes and then how to build a better system from there. >> I'd love that. We have to celebrate those failures that we hopefully can learn from them. Find anything on that, You know, from your viewpoint. >> Eso Actually, it's something I research is developer experience for you. Bernetti. So my communities is this whole big ping. I look on top of it and I'm looking at the outside in howto developers interact with Burnett, ese. And what we're seeing is that there's lots of room for opportunities and Mohr tools outside of the main community space that will help people actually interact with it because that's not really communities. Developers responsibility, you know, so one anything that I think that we're doing now is we're looking and this is something that we're doing and be aware that I can talk about is that we're looking at a P ice we're looking at. We realize that client go, which is the way that you burnett ese talks with sapi eyes, and a lot of people are using out externally were looking at. But what does it actually mean for human to use this and a lot of my work is just really around. Well, that's cool for computers. Now, what if a human has to use it? So what we're finding is that no. And I'm going to talk about this in my keynote tomorrow. You know, we're on this journey, and Kubernetes is not the destination. Coover Netease is the vehicle that is getting us to the destination that we don't even know what it is. So there's lots of spaces that we can look around to improve Kubernetes without even touching Cooper Netease itself, because actually, it's pretty good and it's fairly stable in a lot of cases. But it's hard, and that's the best part. So that's, you know, lots of work for us, the salt >> from my perspective. One of the turning points in Kou Burnett is a success. Story was when it got beyond just Google. Well, folks working on it. For better or worse, Google has a certain step of coding standards, and then you bring it to the real world, where there are people who are, Let's be honest, like me, where my coding standard is. I should try to right some some days, and not everything winds up having the same constraints. Not everything has the same approach. To some extent, it really feels like a tipping point for all of it was when you wind up getting to a position where people are bringing their real world workload that don't look like anything, anyone would be able to write a googol and keep their job. But still having to work with this, there was a wound up being sort of blossoming effect really accelerating the project. Conversely, other large infrastructure projects we need not mention when they had that tipping point in getting more people involved, they sort of imploded on themselves. I'm curious. Do you have any thoughts as to why you Burnett? He started thriving where other projects and failed trying to do the same things. >> I have something you go first. And >> I think the biggest thing about cybernetics is the really strong community and the ecosystem and also communities has the extensive bility for you to build on top of communities. We've seen people building from works, and then the platform is different platforms. Open source platforms on top of you. Burnett is so other people can use on other layers. Hyah. Layers off stacks on top of fraternities. Just use those open source. So, for example, we have the CRD. It's an A P I that allows you to feel your own customized, overnighted style FBI, so they're using some custom for couple databases. You could just create your own carbonated style FBI and call out your database or other stuffs, and then you can combine them into your own platform. And that's very powerful because everywhere. I can just use the same FBI, the Carbonari style idea to manage almost everything and that enables a Teo be able to, you know, on communities being adopted in different industry, such as I o t. A and Lord. >> So actually, this is perfect because the sleaze and so what I was going to say The secret of community is that we don't talk about actually job, Ada says. It's a lot, but it's a communities is a platform for creating platforms. So Kubernetes really is almost built on itself. You can extend Cooper. Netease like communities extends itself with the same semantics that it lets users extended. So Janet was talking about >> becoming the software that is eating the world. Yeah, it >> literally is. So Janet talked about the CRD sees custom resource definitions. It's the same. It's the same mechanism that Kubernetes uses to add new features. So whenever you're using these mechanisms, you're using Kou Burnett. He's basically the Cooper Nate's infrastructure to create. So really, what it is is that this is the tool kit for creating your solutions. What is why I say that Kubernetes is not an end point its its journey. >> So the cloud native system. >> So you know what? Yeah, and I like I like the limits analogy that people talk about. Like Coburn. Eighties is is like clinics. If you think about how Lennox you know little l. Lennox. Yeah. You know, I'm saying little l olynyk sub Let's put together. Yeah, you Burnett. He's like parts of communities would be system. And it's it's all these components come together the creature operating system, and that's the best part about it. >> Okay, so for me, the people that are not the seventy seven hundred that air here give them a little bit of, you know, walk around the show and some of the nooks and crannies that they might not know, like, you know, for myself having been to a number of these like Boy, there were so many half day and full day workshops yesterday there were, like, at least, like fifteen or seventeen or something like that that I saw, You know, obviously there's some of the big keynote. The Expo Hall is sprawling it, you know, I've been toe, you know, fifteen twenty thousand people show here This sex Bohol feels is bustling ahs that one is and well as tons of breakout session. So, you know, give us some of the things that people would have been missing if they didn't come to the show here. >> So just for the record, if you missed the show, you can still watch all the videos online. And then you can also watch the lifestream for keynotes so on. I personally love the applicant the different ways for a customizing covered at ease. So there's Ah, customizing overnight is track. And also there's the apple that applications track and I personally love that. And also I like the color case studies So you can't go to the case studies track to see on different users and users off Cooper, Natty shared. There were war stories, >> Yes, So I think that she will miss. There's a few things that you'll miss if you if you're not here in Barcelona right now, the first thing is that this convention center is huge. It's a ten minute walk from the door to where we're sitting right now, but more seriously, one. The things you'LL miss is that before the conference starts, there are there are a whole bunch of summits, Red had had a summit and fewer people had some. It's yesterday where they talk about things. There's the training sessions, which a lot of cases aren't recorded. And then another thing is that the special interest groups, the cigs. So Cooper ninety six, they all get together and they have faced the face discussions and then generally one from yesterday We're not. We're not recorded. So what you're missing is the people who actually make this big machine turn. They get together face to face and they first of all, they built from a rotary. But they get to discuss items that have require high bit of bandwith that you really can't do over again of issue or email, or even even a slack call like you can actually get this thing solved. And the best thing is watching these people. And then you watch the great ideas that in, you know, three, six months to a year become like, really big thing. So I bet yesterday, so something was discussed. Actually, I know of some things that we discussed yesterday that might fundamentally change how we deal with communities. So that's that is the value of being here and then the third thing is like when you come to a conference like this, where there's almost a thousand people, there's a lot of conversations that happened between, you know, the Expo Hall and the session rooms. And there's, um there's, you know, people are getting jobs here, People are finding new friends and people are learning. And before thing and I'll end with This is that I walk around looking for people who come in on the on the diversity scholarships, and I would not hear their stories if I did not come. So I met two people. I met a young lady from New Zealand who got the scholarship and flew here, you know, and super smart, but is in New Zealand and university, and I get to hear her insights with life. And then I get to share how you could be better in the same thing. I met a gentleman from Zimbabwe yesterday was going to school and take down, and what I hear is that there's so many smart people without opportunities, so if you're looking for opportunities, it's in these halls. There's a lot of people who have either money for you or they have re sources were really doesn't have a job or just you know what? Maybe there's someone you can call whenever you're stuck. So there is a lot of benefit to come into these. If you can get here, >> talent is evenly distributed. Opportunity is not. So I think the diversity scholarship program is one of the most inspirational things I saw mentioned out of a number of inspirational things that >> I know. It's It's my favorite part of communities. You know, I am super lucky that I haven't employees that our employer that can afford to send me here. Then I'm also super lucky that I probably couldn't afford to send myself here if I wanted to. And I do as much as I can to get people >> here. Well, Brian and Janet thank you so much for all you did to put this and sharing it with our community here. I'Ll repeat something that I said in Seattle. Actually, there was a lot of cloud shows out there. But if you're looking for you know, that independent cloud show that you know, lives in this multi hybrid cloud, whatever you wanna call it world you know this is one of the best out there. And the people? Absolutely. If you don't come with networking opportunities, we had into it on earlier, and they talked about how you know, this is the kind of place you come and you find a few people that you could hire to train the hundreds of people inside on all of the latest cloud native pieces. >> Can I say one thing, please? Brian S O, this is This is significant and it's significant for Janet and I. We are in the United States. We are, you know, Janet is a minority and I am a minority. This is the largest open source conference in the world. Siri's This is the largest open source conference in Europe. When we do, when we do, it ended a year. Whenever we do San Diego, it'Ll be the largest open source conference in the world. And look who's running it. You know, my new co chair is also a minority. This is amazing. And I love that. It shows that people who look like us we can come up here and do these things because like you said, opportunity is is, you know, opportunities the hard thing. Talent is everywhere. It's all over the place. And I'm glad we had a chance to do this. >> All right. Well, Brian, Janet, thank you so much for all of that. And Cory and I will be back with more coverage after this brief break. Thank you for watching the cues.

(spirited orchestral music) >> Hello and I'm John Furrier, cohost of theCUBE, founder of SiliconANGLE Media. I'm here at Palo Alto studios for CUBE Conversation as a preview for upcoming, the CNCF-sponsored KubeCon event coming up in Shanghai and in Seattle. I'm here with Janet Kuo, who is a software engineer at Google and recently named the co-chair of KubeCon, the main event around Kubernetes, multi-cloud, all the things happening in cloud-native. Janet, thanks for joining me today. >> Thanks for having me. So you were recently named co-chair, Kelsey was previously the co-chair and he always had those good demos but the program has been changing a lot and you're the new co-chair, what's it like? What's happening? What's the focus this year? What's the content going to look like? Tell us what's happening >> So we get a lot of overwhelming number of submissions, much more than last year, and I see a lot of interesting case studies and also I see that because Kubernetes is actually help you extract the infrastructure away and it runs anywhere so I see a lot of people are actually deploying it everywhere, multi-cloud, hybrid, and even in Edge. For example, I see Chick-Fil-A, they are going to talk about how they deploy Kubernetes in their Edge restaurants and the store owners, they are not tech expert, as you can expect. >> Yeah, I mean that's the edge of the network, a Chick-Fil-A, and you know, great retail example. We run a lot of Chick-Fil-A certainly out here in California it's like In-N-Out Burger, they go hand in hand. But this is a good use case of Edge and this is real world, so Kubernetes has certainly grown up. We know from the growth of KubeCon, the event itself has gotten to be pretty massive, the number of people involved has been great, how has Kubernetes grown up? Because we're seeing the conversation move from we love containers, Kubernetes is great for orchestrating everything, but now people are starting to really start really cranking it up a notch, is that the trend that you're seeing as well, and is that some of the content you'll be focused on? >> So I see, I took a lot at the Google trend for search for Kubernetes and it's still going way up since the beginning and also I look at a recent CNCF survey and I realize that about 40% of people who'll respond to their survey and they work in a enterprise and they said they run Kubernetes in production so that's a huge number. >> That's awesome. Well, now that you're the new co-chair, tell us a little bit about yourself, how, what's your background, how did you get there? >> I started working at Google in 2015 and that's before Kubernetes 1.0 was released and before CNCF and before the first KubeCon and when I joined Google, it's Kubernetes is a way, very new concept and not like it's fixed and it's already adopted by everyone so we work very hard to get the ease of use and get more people adoption and we get a lot of feedback from people and then Kubernetes is getting more and more popular, so after that I decided that I want to submit my first ever conference talk to KubeCon and I got selected and then I start to feel like I enjoy this and I did, and other CNCF hosted events, for example, a panel in San Francisco and I think that might be how I was selected. >> What was your first talk about, that you talked about? >> So I talk about running workloads in Kubernetes and I did an overview of the workloads API because I am the developer of that workloads API. >> So that's also, you got hooked on Kubernetes like everybody else, it's like the Kubernetes drug. So how did you get involved in open source? Were you always developing with open source? How did you get involved in the open source community? >> So Kubernetes is actually my first open source project and before that, I had a phone call with Tim Hawkins, he's the principal engineer at Google and he sold me the idea of Kubernetes and we need to be open and let people choose the best technology for them and he sold me the idea and I think Kubernetes is the future and also I want to work on open source but I just didn't have the chance to work on it yet. >> So we had a good fun time in Copenhagen for the last KubeCon, and we, theCUBE, has been at all the KubeCons as you know. We love this community, we think it's really special, not only because we've been there from the beginning, but we've gotten to see the people involved and the people have been very close-knit but yet so open and inclusive, we're seeing a lot of input, and then at the same time, so that's always great, open source, inclusive, and fun, but then the companies are coming in in waves, a massive amount of waves of commercial vendors jumping in, and I think this foundation's done a great job of balancing being a good upstream and good project but that dynamic is very interesting. It's probably the fastest open source kind of commercial, yet good vibes, commercial open source, how does that change or affect you guys as you pick and look at the data, 'cause you get surveys, you see what people want, vendors, users, industry participants, developers, what is the data telling you? What's all this data coming from the different KubeCons and how is that changing the selections and what's the trend I guess, what's the trends coming from the community? >> So from selecting talks, because we want to focus on make Kubernetes, make KubeCon, still community-focused conference so when we pick talks, we pick the ones that not just doing vendor pitch or sales pitch but we pick the ones that we think the community is going to benefit from and especially when they are talking about a solution that others could adopt or is it open source or not, then that affect our choice and then we also see a lot of people start customizing Kubernetes for their own needs and a lot of people are starting using Kubernetes API to managing resources outside of Kubernetes and that's a very interesting trend because with that, you can have Kubernetes to manage everything your infrastructure, lot of things running on Kubernetes. >> So what are some of those examples that are outside Kubernetes? So for example, you can use, so Kubernetes has a concept called custom resource that you can register a custom API in Kubernetes and so you can use that, you can register an API and you can implement a controller to manage anything you want, for example, different cloud resources or VMs, I even saw people use Kubernetes API to manage robots. >> Wow, so this is real world, so you mentioned you were working workload API at Google, the big trend that we're seeing on theCUBE and that crosses all the different events, not just cloud-native, is workload management, managing workloads and workloads are changing and it's very dynamic, it's not a static world anymore. So managing workloads to the infrastructure is where we see this nice activity happening from containers, Kubernetes, to service meshes, so there's a lot of activity going on there and some of the stuff is straightforward, I won't say straightforward, but containers and Kubernetes is easy to work with but services meshes are difficult. Istio, for instance, Kubeflow or Hot Projects, there's a real focus of stateless has been there, but stateful is hard, is there going to be talks about stateful applications, are you guys looking at some of the Istio, is service mesh going to be a focus this year? >> Yeah, we still see a lot of submissions from service meshes and so you can use service mesh to manage your service easily and secure them easily and we also see a lot of talks for stateful workloads, for example, how you customize something that manage your stateful workloads or what that best practice is and there is a pattern that's popular in the community which is called operator and the concept is that you write a controller, use the custom API that I just mentioned, and you just embed the knowledge of a human operator into that controller and let the controller do the automation for you. >> So it's putting intelligence, like an operator, into the software and letting that ride? >> Yeah and it will do all the work for you and you only need to write it once. >> And automation's a big trend, so if you could stack or rank the top three trends that we expect to see at KubeCon this year, what would they be? >> In the top three, I would say customize and multi-cloud and then service mesh or serverless they're both pretty popular, yeah. >> Is storageless coming? So if we have serverless, will there be storageless (laughs) I made that up, I tweeted that the other day, if there's servers, there's no servers, there's going to be no storage. I mean, service and storage go together so again, this is where the fun action is, the infrastructure is being programmable. And I think one of the things I like about what KubeCon has done is they've really enabled developers to be more efficient with DevOps, the DevOps trend, which is the cloud-native trend. The question I want to ask you is specifically kind of a Google question because I think this is important and Google cloud, I really love the trend of how application developers are being modernized, that's so cool, I love that, but the SRE concept that Google pioneered is becoming more of a trend as more of an operator role, not in the sense of what we just talked about but like an SRE, businesses are starting to look at that kind of scale out infrastructure where there's a need for kind of like an SRE, does that come up at KubeCon at all or is that too operator-oriented? Is that on the agenda? Does that come up in the KubeCon selection criteria, the notion of having operators or SRE-like roles? >> So we have a track called operations, so some of the operator, human operator, talks are submitting through that, to that topic, but we didn't see... >> Might be too early. >> Yeah, too early. >> It might be a little bit too early, that's what I think, alright and then since I brought up some of the tracks, we're always interested in knowing about startups 'cause there seems to be a lot of startup activity, doing a lot of AI stuff or applications, AI ops, and some new things going on, is there a startup activity involved that you're seeing, is there features of startups at all, do you guys look at that, is there going to be an emphasis of emerging companies and startups involved or is it mostly coming from the community? >> We definitely see a lot of startups and something in talks and also you just mentioned mission learning, we also see several talks on and about mission learning and AI submitting to both the Shanghai event and Seattle event. So projects like Kubeflow and Spark, that's being used a lot and we still, we see a lot of submissions from those. >> So those are the popular ones? >> Yeah, the popular ones and those are from Shanghai, I saw some AI submissions and I'm excited about those. >> Okay, so now back to the popular question, everyone wants to know where the popular parties are, what's the popular projects if you had to, in terms of contributors, activity, do you guys have like a rating like here's the most popular project? Do you guys look at just number of contributors? How do you rank the popularity of the projects? >> Or how would you rank them? >> We didn't actually look at the popularity of the projects because are you talking about CNCF projects or any projects? >> CNCF and KubeCon, let me ask the question differently... If I go to Shanghai or Seattle, what's going on? What do I engage, what should I pay attention to, what can I expect if I'm a user and I come to the event, what's going to happen at Shanghai and Seattle? What's the format? >> We separate all the talks in tracks so you can look up the track that you are interested in, for example, do you want to know all the case studies, then you can go to case studies and if you're interested in observability then you go to the observability track and they'll be a lot of different projects, they are presenting their own solutions and you can go and figure out which one fits you the best. >> And so multi-cloud's high, I'll ask you a multi-cloud question 'cause one of the things that we're tracking is what is multi-cloud and how is that different from hybrid? How would you describe that 'cause there are people that talk about hybrid cloud all the time but multi-cloud seems to have different definitions. Is there a different definition to hybrid cloud versus multi-cloud? >> So I think hybrid includes things that's not cloud, for example, your on-prem versus you have your on-premise solutions and you also use some cloud solutions and that's hybrid... >> And multi-cloud is multiple clouds so workloads on different clouds or sharing workloads across clouds? >> Workloads on different clouds. >> Yeah, so Office 365, that's Azure, a TensorFlow on Google and something, okay. I always want to know, comparing running workloads between clouds, that would be the ideal scenario. Here's the tough question for you, put you on the spot here, what is your favorite open source project in the CNCF and favorite track at KubeCon? >> My favorite project is of course Kubernetes and my favorite track would be case studies because I care a lot about user experience and I love to hear user stories. So for Seattle we picked a lot of user stories that we think are interesting and we also pick some keynote speakers that are going to talk about their large-scale usage of Kubernetes and that's very exciting for me, I can't wait to hear their story. >> Yeah, we love the end user stories too, 'cause it really puts the real world scenario around it. Okay, final question for you Janet, I wanted to ask you about diversity at KubeCon, what's going on and what can you share around that program? >> Yeah, we care about diversity a lot. We look at that when we select talks to accept and also we have a diversity scholarship that allows people to apply for a scholarship, we're going to cover the ticket to conference and also the travel to conference and also we have a diversity luncheon on December 12 and that will be sponsored by both Google and Heptio. >> So December 12 in Seattle? And that was a great, by the way, you did a great job last year, the program with scholarship got I think a standing ovation, so that's awesome. Thanks for doing that. >> Thank you, thanks. For the folks watching that might not be really deep on Kubernetes, in your opinion, why is Kubernetes so important and why should IT leaders, developers, and people in mainstream tech who are now new to Kubernetes and seeing the trends, why should they pay attention to Kubernetes, what's the relevance, what's the impact, why should they pay attention to Kubernetes? >> Because Kubernetes allows you to easily adopt cloud, because it's extract every infrastructure the infrastructure level away and allows you to easily run your infrastructure anywhere and most importantly, because a lot of people on different cloud and different stack of development, for example, CICD service mesh, they put a lot energy to integrate with Kubernetes so if you have Kubernetes you have everything. >> You have Kubernetes, you have everything. We love the work you're doing, thanks for co-chairing the KubeCon event, we love going there, CNCF's been very successful, been a great relationship, we love working with them, obviously it's a content-rich environment and I think everyone who is interested in cloud-native should go to the CNCF, there's a lot of sponsors, and more and more logos come on every day, so you guys are doing a good job. Thanks for doing that, appreciate it. Maybe we'll do two cubes this year. Janet Kuo, who is a software engineer at Google is joining me here at theCUBE. She's also the co-chair for KubeCon, the event put on by the CNCF and the industry around cloud-native and all things Kubernetes, multi-cloud, and really applications' workloads for a cloud environment. I'm John Furrier here in theCUBE studios in Palo Alto, thanks for watching. (spirited orchestral music)

>> Announcer: Live from Copenhagen, Denmark, it's theCUBE. Covering KubeCon and CloudNativeCon Europe 2018. Brought to you by the Cloud Native Computing Foundation and its ecosystem partners. >> Hello, everyone. Welcome back to theCUBE's exclusive coverage here in Copenhagen, Denmark for KubeCon 2018, part of the CNCF Cloud Native Compute Foundation, which is part of the Linux Foundation. I'm John Furrier, your host. We've got two great guests here, we've got Liz Rice, the co-chair of KubeCon and CloudNativeCon, kind of a dual naming because it's Kubernetes and it's Cloud Native and also technology evangelist at Aqua Security. She's co-chairing with Kelsey Hightower who will be on later today, and CUBE alumni as well, and Janet Kuo who is a software engineer at Google. Welcome to theCUBE, thanks for coming on. >> Yeah, thanks for inviting us. >> Super excited, we have a lot of energy even though we've got interviews all day and it's kind of, we're holding the line here. It's almost a celebration but also not a celebration because there's more work to do with Kubernetes. Just the growth of the CNCF continues to hit some interesting good performance KPIs on metrics. Growth's up on the membership, satisfaction is high, Kubernetes is being called a de facto standard. So by all kind of general qualitative metrics and quantitative, it's doing well. >> Lauren: It's doing great. >> But it's just the beginning. >> Yeah, yeah. I talked yesterday a little bit in, in the keynote, about project updates, about how Kubernetes has graduated. That's a real signal of maturity. It's a signal to the end-user companies out there that you know, the risk, nothing is ever risk-free, but you know, Kubernetes is here to stay. It's stable, it's got stable governance model, you know, it's not going away. >> John: It's working. >> It's going to continue to evolve and improve. But it's really working, and we've got end users, you know, not only happy and using it, they're prepared to come to this conference and share their stories, share their learnings, it's brilliant. >> Yeah, and Janet also, you know, you talk about China, we have announcement that, I don't know if it's formally announced, but Shanghai, is it out there now? >> Lauren: It is. >> Okay, so Shanghai in, I think November 14th, let me get the dates here, 14th and 15th in Shanghai, China. >> Janet: Yeah. >> Where it's going to be presented in either English or in Chinese, so it's going to be fully translated. Give us the update. >> Yeah, it will be fully translated, and we'll have a CFP coming soon, and people will be submitting their talks in English but they can choose to present either in English or Chinese. >> Can you help us get a CUBE host that can translate theCUBE for us? We need some, if you're out there watching, we need some hosts in China. But in all seriousness, this is a global framework, and this is again the theme of Cloud Native, you know. Being my age, I've seen the lift and shift IT world go from awesome greatness to consolidation to VMwares. I've seen the waves. But this is a different phenomenon with Cloud Native. Take a minute to share your perspectives on the global phenomenon of Cloud Native. It's a global platform, it's not just IT, it's a global platform, the cloud, and what that brings to the table for end users. >> I think for end users, if we're talking about consumers, it actually is, well what it's doing is allowing businesses to develop applications more quickly, to respond to their market needs more quickly. And end users are seeing that in more responsive applications, more responsive services, improved delivery of tech. >> And the businesses, too, have engineers on the front lines now. >> Absolutely, and there's a lot of work going on here, I think, to basically, we were talking earlier about making technology boring, you know, this Kubernetes level is really an abstraction that most application developers don't really need to know about. And making their experience easier, they can just write their code and it runs. >> So if it's invisible to the application developer, that's the success. >> That's a really helpful thing. They shouldn't have to worry about where their code is running. >> John: That's DevOps. >> Yeah, yeah. >> I think the container in Kubernetes technology or this Cloud Native technology that brings developer the ability to, you know, move fast and give them the agility to react to the business needs very quickly. And also users benefit from that and operators also, you know, can manage their applications much more easily. >> Yeah, when you have that abstraction layer, when you have that infrastructure as code, or even this new abstraction layer which is not just infrastructure, it's services, micro-services, growth has been phenomenal. You're bringing the application developer into an efficiency productivity mode where they're dictating the business model through software of the companies. So it's not just, "Hey build me something "and let's go sell it." They're on the front lines, writing the business logic of businesses and their customers. So you're seeing it's super important for them to have that ability to either double down or abandon quickly. This is what agile is. Now it's going from software to business. This, to me, I think is the highlight for me on this show. You see the dots connecting where the developers are truly in charge of actually being a business impact because they now have more capability. As you guys put this together and do the co-chair, do you and Kelsey, what do you guys do in the room, the secret room, you like, "Well let's do this on the content." I mean, 'cause there's so much to do. Take us through the process. >> So, a little bit of insight into how that whole process works. So we had well over 1,000 submissions, which, you know, there's no, I think there's like 150 slots, something like that. So that's a pretty small percentage that we can actually accept. We had an amazing program committee, I think there were around 60 people who reviewed, every individual reviewer looked at a subset. We didn't ask them to look at all thousand, that would be crazy. They scored them, that gave us a kind of first pass, like a sort of an ability to say, "Well, anything that was below average, "we can only take the top 15%, "so anything that's below average "is not going to make the cut." And then we could start looking at trying to balance, say, for example, there's been a lot of talk about were there too many Istio talks? Well, there were a lot of Istio talks because there were a lot of Istio submissions. And that says to us that the community wants to talk about Istio. >> And then number of stars, that's the number one project on the new list. I mean, Kubeflow and Istio are super hot. >> Yeah, yeah, Kubeflow's another great example, there are lots of submissions around it. We can't take them all but we can use the ratings and the advice from the program committee to try and assemble, you know, the best talks to try and bring different voices in, you know, we want to have subject matter experts and new voices. We want to have the big name companies and start-ups, we wanted to try and get a mix, you know. A diversity of opinion, really. >> And you're a membership organization so you have to balance the membership needs with the content program so, challenging with given the growth. I mean, I can only imagine. >> Yeah, so as program co-chairs, we actually have a really free hand over the content, so it's one of the really, I think, nice things about this conference. You know, sponsors do get to stand on stage and deliver their message, but they don't get to influence the actual program. The program is put together for the community, and by doing things like looking at the number of submissions, using those signals that the community want to talk about, I hope we can carry on giving the attendees that format. >> I would just say from an outsider perspective, I think that's something you want to preserve because if you look at the success of the CNCF, one thing I'm impressed by is they've really allowed a commercial environment to be fostered and enabled. But they didn't compromise the technical. >> Lauren: Yeah. >> And the content to me, content and technical tracks are super important because content, they all work together, right? So as long as there's no meddling, stay in your swim lane, whatever, whatever it is. Content is really important. >> Absolutely, yeah. >> Because that's the learning. >> Yeah, yeah. >> Okay, so what's on the cut list that you wish you could have put back on stage? Or is that too risque? You'll come back to that. >> Yeah. >> China, talk about China. Because obviously, we were super impressed last year when we went to go visit Alibaba just to the order of magnitude to the cultural mindset for their thinking around Cloud Native. And what I was most impressed with was Dr. Wong was talking about artistry. They just don't look at it as just technology, although they are nerdy and geeky like us in Silicon Valley. But they really were thinking about the artistry 'cause the app side of it has kind of a, not just design element to the user perspective. And they're very mobile-centric in China, so they're like, they were like, "This is what we want to do." So they were very advanced in my mind on this. Does that change the program in China vis a vis Seattle and here, is there any stark differences between Shanghai and Copenhagen and Seattle in terms of the program? Is there a certain focus? What's the insight into China? >> I think it's a little early to say 'cause we haven't yet opened the CFP. It'll be opening soon but I'm fully expecting that there will be, you know, some differences. I think the, you know, we're hoping to have speakers, a lot more speakers from China, from Asia, because it's local to them. So, like here, we tried to have a European flavor. You'll see a lot of innovators from Europe, like Spotify and the Financial Times, Monzo Bank. You know, they've all been able to share their stories with us. And I think we're hoping to get the same kind of thing in China, hear local stories as well. >> I mean that's a good call. I think conferences that do the rinse and repeat from North America and just slap it down in different regions aren't as effective as making it localized, in a way. >> Yeah. >> That's super important. >> I know that a lot of China companies, they are pretty invested pretty heavily into Kubernetes and Cloud Native technology and they are very innovative. So I actually joined a project in 2015 and I've been collaborating with a lot of Chinese contributors from China remotely on GitHub. For example, the contributors from Huawei and they've been invested a lot in this. >> And they have some contributors in the core. >> Yeah, so we are expecting to see submissions from those contributors and companies and users. >> Well, that's super exciting. We look forward to being there, and it should be excellent. We always have a fun time. The question that I want to ask you guys now, just to switch gears is, for the people watching who couldn't make it or might watch it on YouTube on Demand who didn't make the trip. What surprised you here? What's new, I'm asking, you have a view as the co-chair, you've seen it. But was there anything that surprised you, or did it go right? Nothing goes perfect. I mean, it's like my wedding, everything happens, didn't happen the way you planned it. There's always a surprise. Any wild cards, any x-factors, anything that stands out to you guys? >> So what I see from, so I attend, I think around five KubeCons. So from the first one it's only 550 people, only the small community, the contributors from Google and Red Hat and CoreOS and growing from now. We are growing from the inner circle to the outside circle, from the just contributors to also the users of it, like and also the ecosystem. Everyone that's building the technology around Cloud Native, and I see that growth and it's very surprising to me. We have a keynote yesterday from CERN and everyone is talking about their keynote, like they have I think 200 clusters, and that's amazing. And they said because of Kubernetes they can just focus on physics. >> Yeah, and that's a testimonial right there. >> Yeah. >> That was really good stories to hear, and I think maybe one of the things that surprises me, it sort of continues to surprise me is how collaborative, it's something about this kind of organization, this conference, this whole kind of movement, if you like. Where companies are coming in and sharing their learnings, and we've seen that, we've seen that a lot through the keynotes. And I think we see it on the conference floor, we see it in the hallway chat. And I think we see it in the way that the different SIGs and working groups and projects are all, kind of, collaborating on problem solving. And that's really exciting. >> That's why I was saying earlier in the beginning that there's a celebration amongst ourselves and the community. But also a realization that this is just the beginning, it's not a, it's kind of like when you get venture funding if you're a start-up. That's really when it begins, you don't celebrate, but you take a little bit of a pause. Now my personal take only to all of the hundreds of events we do a year is that I that think this community here has fought the hard DevOps battle. If you go back to 2008 timeframe, and '08, '09, '10, '11, '12, those years were, those were hyper scale years. Look at Google, Facebook, all the original DevOps engineers, they were eating glass and spitting nails. It was hard work. And it was really build your own, a lot of engineering, not just software development. So I think this, kind of like, camaraderie amongst the DevOps community saying, "Look, this is a really big "step up function with Kubernetes." Everyone's had some scar tissue. >> Yeah, I think a lot of people have learned from previous, you know, even other open source projects that they've worked on. And you see some of the amazing work that goes into the kind of, like, community governance side. The things that, you know, Paris Pittman does around contributor experience. It's so good to see people who are experts in helping developers engage, helping engineers engage, really getting to play that role. >> There's a lot of common experiences for people who have never met each other because there's people who have seen the hard work pay with scale and leverage and benefits. They see it, this is amazing. We had Sheryl from Google on saying, "When I left Google and I went out into the real world, "I was like, oh my God, "they don't actually use Borg," like, what? "What do they, how do they actually write software?" I mean, so she's a fish out of water and that, it's like, so again I think there's a lot of commonality, and it's a super great opportunity and a great community and you guys have done a great job, CNCF. And we hope to nurture that, the principles, and looking forward to China. Thanks for coming on theCUBE, we appreciate it. >> Yeah. >> Okay we're here at CNCF's KubeCon 2018, I'm John Furrier, more live coverage. Stay with us, day two of two days of CUBE coverage. Go to thecube.net, siliconangle.com for all the coverage. We'll be back, stay with us after this short break.