>> from Boston, Massachusetts. It's the queue covering active eo 2019. Data driven you by activity. >> Hi. We're right outside of the Boston Haba. You're watching >> the cube on stew Minimum in. And this is active Geo data driven. 2019 due date. Two days digging into, You >> know, the role of data inside Cos on, you know, in an ever changing world, happy to welcome to the program of first time guests are China Oven countrymen who's a research manager at I. D. C. Coming to us from across the pond in London. Thanks so much for joining us. Pleasure. So tell us a little bit. I d c. We know. Well, you know, the market landscapes, you know, watching what's happening. Thie said it 77 Zita bites that was put up in the keynote. Came came from I D. C. Tells you you're focused. >> Yeah, so I'm part of the data protection and storage research team, But I have, ah, European focus. I covered the Western European markets where data protection is almost off a neurotic interest to us. So a lot of our investment is actually made on the context of data protection. And how do I become data driven without compromising on security and sovereignty and data locality. So that's something that I look at. I'm also part of our broader multi cloud infrastructure team on also develops practice. I'm looking at all these modern new trends from data perspective as well. So it's kind of nice being >> keeping you busy, huh? Yeah. So about a year ago, every show that I went to there would be a big clock up on the Kino stage counting down until gpr went way actually said on the Q. Many times it's like we'll know when GPR starts with lawsuits. Sister and I feel like it was a couple of days, if not a couple of weeks before some of the big tech firms got sued for this. So here we are 2019. It's been, you know, been a while now since since since this launch. How important is GDP are you know what? How is that impacting customers and kind of ripple effect? Because, you know, here in the States, we're seeing some laws in California and beyond that are following that. But they pushed back from the Oh, hey, we're just gonna have all the data in the world and we'll store it somewhere sure will protect it and keep it secure. But but But >> yeah, yeah, so it's suggestive. Here is a game changer and it's interesting you said this big clock ticking and everybody has been talking about it. So when the European Commission >> announced repairs >> coming, organizations had about two years to actually prepare for it. But there were a lot of naysayers, and they thought, This is not gonna happen. The regulators don't have enough resources to actually go after all of these data breaches, and it's just too complicated. Not everyone's going complaints just not gonna happen. But then they realised that the regulators we're sticking to it on towards the end. Towards the last six months in the race to GDP, and there was this helter skelter running. Their organizations were trying to just do some Die Ryan patch of exercise to have that minimum viable compliance. So there they wanted to make sure that they don't go out of business. They don't have any major data breaches when Jean Pierre comes a difference that that was the story of 2018 although they have so much time to react they didn't on towards the end. They started doing a lot of these patch up work to make sure they had that minimum by the compliance. But over time, what we're seeing is that a lot off a stewed organizations are actually using GDP are as to create that competitive differentiations. If you look at companies like Barclays, they have been so much on top of that game on DH. They include that in their marketing strategies and the corporate social responsibility to say that, Hey, you know our business is important to us, but your privacy and your data is much more valuable to us, and that kind of instantly helps them build that trust. So they have big GDP, our compliance into their operations so much and so well that they can actually sell those kind of GPR consultancy services because they're so good at it. And that's what we are seeing is happening 2019 on DH. Probably the next 12 to 18 months will be about scaling on operational izing GDP are moving from that minimum viable compliance. >> Its interest weighed a conversation with Holly St Clair, whose state of Massachusetts and in our keynote this morning she talked about that data minimalist. I only want as much data as I know what I'm going to do. How I'm goingto leverage it, you know, kind of that pendulum swing back from the I'm goingto poured all the data and think about it later. It is that Did you see that is a trend with, you know, is that just governments is that, you know, you seeing that throughout industries and your >> interesting. So there was seven gpr came into existence. There were a lot of these workshops that were happening for on for organizations and how to become GDP. And there was this Danish public sector organization where one of the employees went to do that workshop was all charged up, and he came back to his employer and said, Hey, can you forget me on it Took that organization about 14 employees and three months to forget one person. So that's the amount of data they were holding in. And they were not dilating on all the processes were manual which took them so long to actually forget one person on. So if you don't cleanse a pure data act now meeting with all these right to be forgotten, Andi, all these specific clauses within GPR is going to be too difficult. And it's going to just eat up your business >> tryingto connecting the dots here. One of the one of the big stumbling blocks is if you look at data protection. If I've got backup, if I've got archive, I mean, if I've taken a snapshot of something and stuck that under a mountain in a giant tape and they say forget about me Oh, my gosh, Do I have to go retrieve that? I need to manage that? The cost could be quite onerous. Help! Help us connect the dots as to what that means to actually, you know, what are the ramifications of this regulation? >> Yeah, So I think so. Judy PR is a beast. It's a dragon off regulations. It's important to dice it to understand what the initial requirements are on one was the first step is to get visibility and classified the data as to what is personal data. You don't want to apply policies to all the data because I might be some garbage in there, so you need to get visibility on A says and classified data on what is personal data. Once you know what data is personal, what do you want to retain? That's when you start applying policies too. Ensure that they are safe and they're anonymous. Pseudonym ized. If you want to do analytics at a later stage on DH, then you think about how you meet. Individual close is so see there's a jeep airframe, but you start by classifying data. Then you apply specific policies to ensure you protect on back up the personal data on. Then you go about meeting the specific requirements. >> What else can you tell us about kind of European markets? You know, I I know when I look at the the cloud space, governance is something very specific to, and I need to make sure my data doesn't leave the borders and like what other trends in you know issues when you hear >> it from Jenny Peered forced a lot ofthe existential threat to a lot of companies. Like, say, hyper scale. Er's SAS men does so they were the first ones to actually become completely compliant to understand their regulations, have European data data hubs, and to have those data centres like I think At that time, Microsoft had this good good collaboration with T systems to have a local data center not controlled by Microsoft, but by somebody who is just a German organizations. You cannot have data locality more than that, right? So they were trying different innovative ways to build confidence among enterprises to make sure that cloud adoption continues on what was interesting. That came out from a research was that way thought, Gee, DPR means people's confidence and cloud is going to plunge. People's confidence in public cloud is going to pledge. That didn't happen. 42% of organizations were still going ahead with their cloud strategies as is, but it's just that they were going to be a lot more cautious. And they want to make sure that the applications and data that they were putting in the cloud was something that they had complete visibility in tow on that didn't have too much of personal data and even if it had, they had complete control over. So they had a different strategy off approaching public cloud, but it didn't slow them down. But over time they realised that to get that control ofthe idea and to get that control of data. They need to have that multiple multi cloud strategy because Cloud had to become a two way street. They need to have an exit strategy. A swell. So they tried to make sure that they adopted multiple cloud technologies and have the data interoperability. Ahs Well, because data management was one of their key key. Top of my prayer. >> Okay, last question I had for you. We're here at the active you event. What? What do you hear from your customers about Octavio? Any research that you have relevant, what >> they're doing, it's going interesting. So copy data management. That's how active you started, right? They created a market for themselves in this competition, a management and be classified copy data management within replication Market on replication is quite a slow market, but this copy data management is big issue, and it's one of the fastest growing market. So So So they started off from a good base, but they created a market for themselves and people started noticing them, and now they have kind of grown further and grown beyond and tried to cover the entire data management space. Andi, I think what's interesting and what's going to be interesting is how they keep up the momentum in building that infrastructure, ecosystem and platform ecosystem. Because companies are moving from protecting data centers to protecting centers of data on if they can help organizations protect multiple centers of data through a unified pane of glass, I have a platform approach to data management. Then they can help organizations become data drivers, which gives them the competitive advantage. So if they can keep up that momentum there going great guns, >> Thank you so much for joining us in Cheshire, sharing the data that you have in the customer viewpoints from Europe. So we'll be back with more coverage here from Active EO data driven 2019 in Boston. Mess fuses on stew Minimum. Thanks for watching the Q. Thank you.

>> From Boston, Massachusets, it's The Cube. Covering Actifio 2019: Data Driven, Brought to you by Actifio. >> Welcome back to Boston, everybody. We're here at the Intercontinental Hotel at Actifio's Data Driven conference, day one. You're watching The Cube. The leader in on-the-ground tech coverage. My name is is Dave Valante, Stu Minamin is here, so is John Ferrer, my friend Frank Gens is here, he's the Senior Vice President and Chief Analyst at IDC and Head Dot Connector. Frank, welcome to The Cube. >> Well thank you Dave. >> First time. >> First time. >> Newbie. >> Yep. >> You're going to crush it, I know. >> Be gentle. >> You know, you're awesome, I've watched you over the many years, of course, you know, you seem to get competitive, and it's like who gets the best rating? Frank always had the best ratings at the Directions conference. He's blushing but I could- >> I don't know if that's true but I'll accept it. >> I could never beat him, no matter how hard I tried. But you are a phenomenal speaker, you gave a great conversation this morning. I'm sure you drew a lot from your Directions talk, but every year you lay down this, you know, sort of, mini manifesto. You describe it as, you connect the dots, IDC, thousands of analysts. And it's your job to say okay, what does this all mean? Not in the micro, let's up-level a little bit. So, what's happening? You talked today, You know you gave your version of the wave slides. So, where are we in the waves? We are exiting the experimentation phase, and coming in to a new phase that multiplied innovation. I saw AI on there, block-chain, some other technologies. Where are we today? >> Yeah, well I think having mental models of the6 industry or any complex system is pretty important. I mean I've made a career dumbing-down a complex industry into something simple enough that I can understand, so we've done it again now with what we call the third platform. So, ten years ago seeing the whole raft of new technologies at the time were coming in that would become the foundation for the next thirty years of tech, so, that's an old story now. Cloud, mobile, social, big data, obviously IOT technologies coming in, block-chain, and so forth. So we call this general era the third platform, but we noticed a few years ago, well, we're at the threshold of kind of a major scale-up of innovation in this third platform that's very different from the last ten or twelve years, which we called the experimentation stage. Where people were using this stuff, using the cloud, using mobile, big data, to create cool things, but they were doing it in kind of a isolated way. Kind of the traditional, well I'm going to invent something and I may have a few friends help me, whereas, the promise of the cloud has been , well, if you have a lot of developers out on the cloud, that form a community, an ecosystem, think of GitHub, you know, any of the big code repositories, or the ability to have shared service as often Amazon, Cloud, or IBM, or Google, or Microsoft, the promise is there to actually bring to life what Bill Joy said, you know, in the nineties. Which was no matter how smart you are, most of the smart people in the world work for someone else. So the questions always been, well, how do I tap into all those other smart people who don't work for me? So we can feel that where we are in the industry right now is the business model of multiplied innovation or if you prefer, a network of collaborative innovation, being able to build something interesting quickly, using a lot of innovation from other people, and then adding your special sauce. But that's going to take the scale of innovation just up a couple of orders of magnitude. And the pace, of course, that goes with that, is people are innovating much more rapid clip now. So really, the full promise of a cloud-native innovation model, so we kind of feel like we're right here, which means there's lots of big changes around the technologies, around kind of the world of developers and apps, AI is changing, and of course, the industry structure itself. You know the power positions, you know, a lot of vendors have spent a lot of energy trying to protect the power positions of the last thirty years. >> Yeah so we're getting into some of that. So, but you know, everybody talks about digital transformation, and they kind of roll their eyes, like it's a big buzzword, but it's real. It's dataware at a data-driven conference. And data, you know, being at the heart of businesses means that you're seeing businesses transition industries, or traverse industries, you know, Amazon getting into groceries, Apple getting into content, Amazon as well, etcetera, etcetera, etcetera, so, my question is, what's a tech company? I mean, you know, Bennyhoff says that, you know, every company's a sass company, and you're certainly seeing that, and it's got to be great for your business. >> Yeah, yeah absolutely >> Quantifying all those markets, but I mean, the market that you quantify is just it's every company now. Banks, insurance companies, grocers, you know? Everybody is a tech company. >> I think, yeah, that's a hundred percent right. It is that this is the biggest revolution in the economy, you know, for many many decades. Or you might say centuries even. Is yeah, whoever put it, was it Mark Andreson or whoever used to talk about software leading the world, we're in the middle of that. Only, software now is being delivered in the form of digital or cloud services so, you know, every company is a tech company. And of course it really raises the question, well what are tech companies? You know, they need to kind of think back about where does our value add? But it is great. It's when we look at the world of clouds, one of the first things we observed in 2007, 2008 was, well, clouds wasn't just about S3 storage clouds, or salesforce.com's softwares and service. It's a model that can be applied to any industry, any company, any offering. And of course we've seen all these startups whether it's Uber or Netflix or whoever it is, basically digital innovation in every single industry, transforming that industry. So, to me that's the exciting part is if that model of transforming industries through the use of software, through digital technology. In that kind of experimentation stage it was mainly a startup story. All those unicorns. To me the multiplied innovation chapter, it's about- (audio cuts out) finally, you know, the cities, the Procter & Gambles, the Walmarts, the John Deere's, they're finally saying hey, this cloud platform and digital innovation, if we can do that in our industry. >> Yeah, so intrapreneurship is actually, you know, starting to- >> Yeah. >> So you and I have seen a lot of psychos, we watched the you know, the mainframe wave get crushed by the micro-processor based revolution, IDC at the time spent a lot of time looking at that. >> Vacuum tubes. >> Water coolant is back. So but the industry has marched to the cadence of Moore's Law forever. Even Thomas Friedman when he talks about, you know, his stuff and he throws in Moore's Law. But no longer Moore's Law the sort of engine of innovation. There's other factors. So what's the innovation cocktail looking forward over the next ten years? You've talked about cloud, you know, we've talked about AI, what's that, you know, sandwich, the innovation sandwich look like? >> Yeah so to me I think it is the harnessing of all this flood of technologies, again, that are mainly coming off the cloud, and that parade is not stopping. Quantum, you know, lots of other technologies are coming down the pipe. But to me, you know, it is the mixture of number one the cloud, public cloud stacks being able to travel anywhere in the world. So take the cloud on the road. So it's even, I would say, not even just scale, I think of, that's almost like a mount of compute power. Which could happen inside multiple hyperscale data centers. I'm also thinking about scale in terms of the horizontal. >> Bringing that model anywhere. >> Take me out to the edge. >> Wherever your data lives. >> Take me to a Carnival cruise ship, you know, take me to, you know, an apple-powered autonomous car, or take me to a hospital or a retail store. So the public cloud stacks where all the innovation is basically happening in the industry. Jail-breaking that out so it can come, you know it's through Amazon, AWS Outpost, or Ajerstack, or Google Anthos, this movement of the cloud guys, to say we'll take public cloud innovation wherever you need it. That to me is a big part of the cocktail because that's you know, basically the public clouds have been the epicenter of most tech innovation the last three or four years, so, that's very important. I think, you know just quickly, the other piece of the puzzle is the revolution that's happening in the modularity of apps. So the micro services revolution. So, the building of new apps and the refactoring of old apps using containers, using servos technologies, you know, API lifecycle management technologies, and of course, agile development methods. Kind of getting to this kind of iterative sped up deployment model, where people might've deployed new code four times a year, they're now deploying it four times a minute. >> Yeah right. >> So to me that's- and kind of aligned with that is what I was mentioning before, that if you can apply that, kind of, rapid scale, massive volume innovation model and bring others into the party, so now you're part of a cloud-connected community of innovators. And again, that could be around a Github, or could be around a Google or Amazon, or it could be around, you know, Walmart. In a retail world. Or an Amazon in retail. Or it could be around a Proctor & Gamble, or around a Disney, digital entertainment, you know, where they're creating ecosystems of innovators, and so to me, bringing people, you know, so it's not just these technologies that enable rapid, high-volume modular innovation, but it's saying okay now plugging lots of people's brains together is just going to, I think that, here's the- >> And all the data that throws off obviously. >> Throws a ton of data, but, to me the number we use it kind of is the punchline for, well where does multiplied innovation lead? A distributed cloud, this revolution in distributing modular massive scale development, that we think the next five years, we'll see as many new apps developed and deploye6d as we saw developed and deployed in the last forty years. So five years, the next five years, versus the last forty years, and so to me that's, that is the revolution. Because, you know, when that happens that means we're going to start seeing that long tail of used cases that people could never get to, you know, all the highly verticalized used cases are going to be filled, you know we're going to finally a lot of white space has been white for decades, is going to start getting a lot of cool colors and a lot of solutions delivered to them. >> Let's talk about some of the macro stuff, I don't know the exact numbers, but it's probably three trillion, maybe it's four trillion now, big market. You talked today about the market's going two x GDP. >> Yeah. >> For the tech market, that is. Why is it that the tech market is able to grow at a rate faster than GDP? And is there a relationship between GDP and tech growth? >> Yeah, well, I think, we are still, while, you know, we've been in tech, talk about those apps developed the last forty years, we've both been there, so- >> And that includes the iPhone apps, too, so that's actually a pretty impressive number when you think about the last ten years being included in that number. >> Absolutely, but if you think about it, we are still kind of teenagers when you think about that Andreson idea of software eating the world. You know, we're just kind of on the early appetizer, you know, the sorbet is coming to clear our palates before we go to the next course. But we're not even close to the main course. And so I think when you look at the kind of, the percentage of companies and industry process that is digital, that has been highly digitized. We're still early days, so to me, I think that's why. That the kind of the steady state of how much of an industry is kind of process and data flow is based on software. I'll just make up a number, you know, we may be a third of the way to whatever the steady state is. We've got two-thirds of the way to go. So to me, that supports growth of IT investment rising at double the rate of overall. Because it's sucking in and absorbing and transforming big pieces of the existing economy, >> So given the size of the market, given that all companies are tech companies. What are your thoughts on the narrative right now? You're hearing a lot of pressure from, you know, public policy to break up big tech. And we saw, you know you and I were there when Microsoft, and I would argue, they were, you know, breaking the law. Okay, the Department of Justice did the right thing, and they put handcuffs on them. >> Yeah. >> But they never really, you know, went after the whole breakup scenario, and you hear a lot of that, a lot of the vitriol. Do you think that makes sense? To break up big tech and what would the result be? >> You don't think I'm going to step on those land mines, do you? >> Okay well I've got an opinion. >> Alright I'll give you mine then. Alright, since- >> I mean, I'll lay it out there, I just think if you break up big tech the little techs are going to get bigger. It's going to be like AT&T all over again. The other thing I would add is if you want to go after China for, you know, IP theft, okay fine, but why would you attack the AI leaders? Now, if they're breaking the law, that should not be allowed. I'm not for you know, monopolistic, you know, illegal behavior. What are your thoughts? >> Alright, you've convinced me to answer this question. >> We're having a conversation- >> Nothing like a little competitive juice going. You're totally wrong. >> Lay it out for me. >> No, I think, but this has been a recurring pattern, as you were saying, it even goes back further to you know, AT&T and people wanting to connect other people to the chiraphone, and it goes IBM mainframes, opening up to peripherals. Right, it goes back to it. Exactly. It goes back to the wheel. But it's yeah, to me it's a valid question to ask. And I think, you know, part of the story I was telling, that multiplied innovation story, and Bill Joy, Joy's Law is really about platform. Right? And so when you get aggregated portfolio of technical capabilities that allow innovation to happen. Right, so the great thing is, you know, you typically see concentration, consolidation around those platforms. But of course they give life to a lot of competition and growth on top of them. So that to me is the, that's the conundrum, because if you attack the platform, you may send us back into this kind of disaggregated, less creative- so that's the art, is to take the scalpel and figure out well, where are the appropriate boundaries for, you know, putting those walls, where if you're in this part of the industry, you can't be in this. So, to me I think one, at least reasonable way to think about it is, so for example, if you are a major cloud platform player, right, you're providing all of the AI services, the cloud services, the compute services, the block-chain services, that a lot of the sass world is using. That, somebody could argue, well, if you get too strong in the sass world, you then could be in a position to give yourself favorable position from the platform. Because everyone in the sass world is depending on the platform. So somebody might say you can't be in. You know, if you're in the sass position you'll have to separate that from the platform business. But I think to me, so that's a logical way to do it, but I think you also have to ask, well, are people actually abusing? Right, so I- >> I think it's a really good question. >> I don't think it's fair to just say well, theoretically it could be abused. If the abuse is not happening, I don't think you, it's appropriate to prophylactically, it's like go after a crime before it's committed. So I think, the other thing that is happening is, often these monopolies or power positions have been about economic power, pricing power, I think there's another dynamic happening because consumer date, people's data, the Facebook phenomenon, the Twitter and the rest, there's a lot of stuff that's not necessarily about pricing, but that's about kind of social norms and privacy that I think are at work and that we haven't really seen as big a factor, I mean obviously we've had privacy regulation is Europe with GDPR and the rest, obviously in check, but part of that's because of the social platforms, so that's another vector that is coming in. >> Well, you would like to see the government actually say okay, this is the framework, or this is what we think the law should be. I mean, part of it is okay, Facebook they have incentive to appropriate our data and they get, okay, and maybe they're not taking enough responsibility for. But I to date have not seen the evidence as we did with, you know, Microsoft wiping out, you know, Lotus, and Novel, and Word Perfect through bundling and what it did to Netscape with bundling the browser and the price practices that- I don't see that, today, maybe I'm just missing it, but- >> Yeah I think that's going to be all around, you know, online advertising, and all that, to me that's kind of the market- >> Yeah, so Google, some of the Google stuff, that's probably legit, and that's fine, they should stop that. >> But to me the bigger issue is more around privacy.6 You know, it's a social norm, it's societal, it's not an economic factor I think around Facebook and the social platforms, and I think, I don't know what the right answer is, but I think certainly government it's legitimate for those questions to be asked. >> Well maybe GDPR becomes that framework, so, they're trying to give us the hook but, I'm having too much fun. So we're going to- I don't know how closely you follow Facebook, I mean they're obviously big tech, so Facebook has this whole crypto-play, seems like they're using it for driving an ecosystem and making money. As opposed to dealing with the privacy issue. I'd like to see more on the latter than the former, perhaps, but, any thoughts on Facebook and what's going on there with their crypto-play? >> Yeah I don't study them all that much so, I am fascinated when Mark Zuckerberg was saying well now our key business now is about privacy, which I find interesting. It doesn't feel that way necessarily, as a consumer and an observer, but- >> Well you're on Facebook, I'm on Facebook, >> Yeah yeah. >> Okay so how about big IPOs, we're in the tenth year now of this huge, you know, tail-wind for tech. Obviously you have guys like Uber, Lyft going IPO,6 losing tons of money. Stocks actually haven't done that well which is kind of interesting. You saw Zoom, you know, go public, doing very well. Slack is about to go public. So there's really a rush to IPO. Your thoughts on that? Is this sustainable? Or are we kind of coming to the end here? >> Yeah so, I think in part, you know, predicting the stock market waves is a very tough thing to do, but I think one kind of secular trend is going to be relevant for these tech IPOs is what I was mentioning earlier, is that we've now had a ten, twelve year run of basically startups coming in and reinventing industries while the incumbents in the industries are basically sitting on their hands, or sleeping. So to me the next ten years, those startups are going to, not that, I mean we've seen that large companies waking up doesn't necessarily always lead to success but it feels to me like it's going to be a more competitive environment for all those startups Because the incumbents, not all of them, and maybe not even most of them, but some decent portion of them are going to wind up becoming digital giants in their own industry. So to me I think that's a different world the next ten years than the last ten. I do think one important thing, and I think around acquisitions MNA, and we saw it just the last few weeks with Google Looker and we saw Tab Low with Salesforce, is if that, the mega-cloud world of Microsoft, Ajer, and Amazon, Google. That world is clearly consolidating. There's room for three or four global players and that game is almost over. But there's another power position on top of that, which is around where did all the app, business app guys, all the suite guys, SAP, Oracle, Salesforce, Adobe, Microsoft, you name it. Where did they go? And so we see, we think- >> Service Now, now kind of getting big. >> Absolutely, so we're entering a intensive period, and I think again, the Tab Low and Looker is just an example where those companies are all stepping on the gas to become better platforms. So apps as platforms, or app portfolio as platforms, so, much more of a data play, analytics play, buying other pieces of the app portfolio, that they may not have. And basically scaling up to become the business process platforms and ecosystems there. So I think we are just at the beginning of that, so look for a lot of sass companies. >> And I wonder if Amazon could become a platform for developers to actually disrupt those traditional sass guys. It's not obvious to me how those guys get disrupted, and I'm thinking, everybody says oh is Amazon going to get into the app space? Maybe some day if they happen to do a cam expans6ion, But it seems to me that they become a platform fo6r new apps you know, your apps explosion.6 At the edge, obviously, you know, local. >> Well there's no question. I think those appcentric apps is what I'd call that competition up there and versus kind of a mega cloud. There's no question the mega cloud guys. They've already started launching like call center, contact center software, they're creeping up into that world of business apps so I don't think they're going to stop and so I think that that is a reasonable place to look is will they just start trying to create and effect suites and platforms around sass of their own. >> Startups, ecosystems like you were saying. Alright, I got to give you some rapid fire questions here, so, when do you think, or do you think, no, I'm going to say when you think, that owning and driving your own car will become the exception, rather than the norm? Buy into the autonomous vehicles hype? Or- >> I think, to me, that's a ten-year type of horizon. >> Okay, ten plus, alright. When will machines be able to make better diagnosis than than doctors? >> Well, you could argue that in some fields we're almost there, or we're there. So it's all about the scope of issue, right? So if it's reading a radiology, you know, film or image, to look for something right there, we're almost there. But for complex cancers or whatever that's going to take- >> One more dot connecting question. >> Yeah yeah. >> So do you think large retail stores will essentially disappear? >> Oh boy that's a- they certainly won't disappear, but I think they can so witness Apple and Amazon even trying to come in, so it feels that the mix is certainly shifting, right? So it feels to me that the model of retail presence, I think that will still be important. Touch, feel, look, socialize. But it feels like the days of, you know, ten thousand or five thousand store chains, it feels like that's declining in a big way. >> How about big banks? You think they'll lose control of the payment systems? >> I think they're already starting to, yeah, so, I would say that is, and they're trying to get in to compete, so I think that is on its way, no question. I think that horse is out of the barn. >> So cloud, AI, new apps, new innovation cocktails, software eating the world, everybody is a tech company. Frank Gens, great to have you. >> Dave, always great to see you. >> Alright, keep it right there buddy. You're watching The Cube, from Actifio: Data Driven nineteen. We'll be right back right after this short break. (bouncy electronic music)

>> Announcer: Live from San Jose, California, it's theCUBE covering innovating to fuel the next decade of big data. Brought to you by Western Digital. >> Hey, welcome back everybody. Jeff Frick, here with theCUBE. We are at the Western Digital Headquarters in San Jose, California. It's the Al-Mady Campus. A historic campus. It's had a lot of great innovation, especially in hard drives for years and years and years. This event's called Innovating to Fuel the Next Data Big Data. And we're excited to have a big brain on. We like to get smart people who's been watching this story for a while and will give us a little bit of historical perspective. It's John Rydning. He is the Research Vice President for Hard Drives for IEC. John, Welcome. >> Thank you, Jeff. >> Absolutely. So, what is your take on today's announcement? >> I think it's our very meaningful announcement, especially when you consider that the previous BIGIT Technology announcement for the industry was Helium, about four or five years ago. But, really, the last big technology announcement prior to that was back in 2005, 2006, when the industry announced making this transition to what they called at that time, "Perpendicular Magnetic Recording." And when that was announced it was kind of a similar problem at that time in the industry that we have today, where the industry was just having a difficult time putting more data on each disc inside that drive. And, so they kind of hit this technology wall. And they announced Perpendicular Magnetic Recording and it really put them on a new S curve in terms of their ability to pack more data on each disc and just kind of put it in some perspective. So, after they announce Perpendicular Magnetic Recording, the capacity per disc increased about 30% a year for about five years. And then over, really, a ten year period, increased about an average of about 20% a year. And, so today's announcement is I see a lot of parallels to that. You know, back when Perpendicular Magnetic Recording was announced, really they build. They increased the capacity per platter was growing very slowly. That's where we are today. And with this announcement of MAMR Technology the direction that Western Digital's choosing really could put the industry on a new S curve and putting in terms of putting more capacity, storage capacity on each one of those discs. >> It's interesting. Always reminds me kind of back to the OS in Microsoft in Intel battles. Right? Intel would come out with a new chip and then Microsoft would make a bigger OS and they go back and back and forth and back and forth. >> John: Yeah, that's very >> And we're seeing that here, right? Cuz the demands for the data are growing exponentially. I think one of the numbers that was thrown out earlier today that the data thrown off by people and the data thrown off by machines is so exponentially larger than the data thrown off by business, which has been kind of the big driver of IT spin. And it's really changing. >> It's a huge fundamental shift. It really is >> They had to do something. Right? >> Yeah, the demand for a storage capacity by these large data centers is just phenomenal and yet at the same time, they don't want to just keep building new data center buildings. And putting more and more racks. They want to put more storage density in that footprint inside that building. So, that's what's really pushing the demand for these higher capacity storage devices. They want to really increase the storage capacity per cubic meter. >> Right, right. >> Inside these data centers. >> It's also just fascinating that our expectation is that they're going to somehow pull it off, right? Our expectation that Moore's laws continue, things are going to get better, faster, cheaper, and bigger. But, back in the back room, somebody's actually got to figure out how to do it. And as you said, we hit these kind of seminal moments where >> Yeah, that's right. >> You do get on a new S curve, and without that it does flatten out over time. >> You know, what's interesting though, Jeff, is really about the time that Perpendicular Magnetic Recording was announced way back in 2005, 2006, the industry was really, already at that time, talking about these thermal assist technologies like MAMR that Western Digital announced today. And it's always been a little bit of a question for those folks that are either in the industry or watching the industry, like IDC. And maybe even even more importantly for some of the HDD industry customers. They're kind of wondering, so what's really going to be the next technology race horse that takes us to that next capacity point? And it's always been a bit of a horse race between HAMR and MAMR. And there's been this lack of clarity or kind of a huge question mark hanging over the industry about which one is it going to be. And Western Digital certainly put a stake in the ground today that they see MAMR as that next technology for the future. >> (mumbles words) Just read a quote today (rushes through name) key alumni just took a new job. And he's got a pin tweet at the top of his thing. And he says, "The smart man looks for ways "To solve the problem. "Or looks at new solutions. "The wise man really spends his time studying the problem." >> I like that. >> And it's really interesting here cuz it seems kind of obvious there. Heat's never necessarily a good thing with electronics and data centers as you mentioned trying to get efficiency up. There's pressure as these things have become huge, energy consumption machines. That said, they're relatively efficient, based on other means that we've been doing they compute and the demand for this compute continues to increase, increase, increase, increase. >> Absolutely >> So, as you kind of look forward, is there anything kind of? Any gems in the numbers that maybe those of us at a layman level are kind of a first read are missing that we should really be paying attention that give us a little bit of a clue of what the feature looks like? >> Well, there's a couple of major trends going on. One is that, at least for the hard drive industry, if you kind of look back the last ten years or so, a pretty significant percentage of the revenue that they've generated a pretty good percentage of the petabytes that they ship have really gone into the PC market. And that's fundamentally shifting. And, so now it's really the data centers, so that by the time you get to 2020, 2021, about 60 plus percent of the petabytes that the industry's shipping is going into data centers, where if you look back a few years ago, 60% was going into PCs. That's a big, big change for the industry. And it's really that kind of change that's pushing the need for these higher capacity hard drives. >> Jeff: Right. >> So, that's, I think, one of the biggest shifts has taking place. >> Well, the other thing that's interesting in that comment because we know scale drives innovation better than anything and clearly Intel microprocessors rode the PC boom to get out scale to drive the innovation. And, so if you're saying, now, that the biggest scale is happening in the data center Then, that's a tremendous force for innovation in there versus Flash, which is really piggy-backing on the growth of these jobs, because that's where it's getting it's scale. So, when you look at kind of the Flash hard drive comparison, right? Obviously, Flash is the shiny new toy getting a lot of buzz over the last couple years. Western Digital has a play across the portfolio, but the announcement earlier today said, you're still going to have like this TenX cost differentiation. >> Yeah, that's right. >> Even through, I think it was 20, 25. I don't want to say what the numbers were. Over a long period of time. You see that kind of continuing DC&E kind of conflict between those two? Or is there a pretty clear stratification between what's going to go into Flash systems, or what's going to hard drives? >> That's a great question, now. So, even in the very large HyperScale data centers and we definitely see where Flash and hard disk drives are very complimentary. They're really addressing different challenges, different problems, and so I think one of the charts that we saw today at the briefing really is something that we agree with strongly at IDC. Today, maybe, about 7% or 8% of all of the combined HDD SSD petabyte shipped for enterprise are SSD petabytes. And then, that grows to maybe ten. >> What was it? Like 7% you said? >> 6% to 7%. >> 6% to 7% okay. Yeah, so we still have 92, 93%, 94% of all petabytes that again are HDD SSD petabytes for enterprise. Those are still HDD petabytes. And even when you get out to 2020, 2021, again, still bought 90%. We agree with what Western Digital talked about today. About 90% of the combined HDD SSD petabytes that are shipping for enterprise continue to be HDD. So, we do see the two technologies very complementary. Talked about SSD is kind of getting their scale on PCs and that's true. They really are going to quickly continue to become a bigger slice of the storage devices attached to new PCs. But, in the data center you really need that bulk storage capacity, low cost capacity. And that's where we see that the two SSDs and HDDs are going to live together for a long time. >> Yeah, and as we said the conflict barrier, complimentary nature of the two different applications are very different. You need the big data to build the models, to run the algorithms, to do stuff. But, at the same time, you need the fast data that's coming in. You need the real time analytics to make modifications to the algorithms and learn from the algorithms >> That's right, yeah. It's the two of those things together that are one plus one makes three type of solution. Exactly, and especially to address latency. Everybody wants their data fast. When you type something into Google, you want your response right away. And that's where SSDs really come into play, but when you do deep searches, you're looking through a lot of data that has been collected over years and a lot of that's probably sitting on hard disc drives. >> Yeah. The last piece of the puzzle, I just want to you to address before we sign off, That was an interesting point is that not just necessarily the technology story, but the ecosystem story. And I thought that was really kind of, I thought, the most interesting part of the MAMR announcement was that it fits in the same form factor, there's no change to OS, there's no kind of change in the ecosystem components in which you plug this in. >> Yeah, that's right. It's just you take out the smaller drive, the 10, or the 12, or whatever, or 14 I guess is coming up. And plug in. They showed a picture of a 40 terabyte drive. >> Right. >> You know, that's the other part of the story that maybe doesn't get as much play as it should. You're playing in an ecosystem. You can't just come up with this completely, kind of independent, radical, new thing, unless it'S so radical that people are willing to swap out their existing infrastructure. >> I completely agree. It's can be very difficult for the customer to figure out how to adopt some of these new technologies and actually, the hard disk drive industry has thrown a couple of technologies at their customers over the past five, six years, that have been a little challenging for them to adopt. So, one was when the industry went from a native 512 by sectors to 4K sectors. Seems like a pretty small change that you're making inside the drive, but it actually presented some big challenges for some of the enterprise customers. And even the single magnetic recording technologies. So, it has a way to get more data on the disc, and Western Digital certainly talked about that today. But, for the customer trying to plug and play that into a system and SMR technology actually created some real challenges for them to figure out how to adopt that. So, I agree that what was shown today about the MAMR technology is definitely a plug and play. >> Alright, we'll give you the last word as people are driving away today from the headquarters. They got a bumper sticker as to why this is so important. What's it say on the bumper sticker about MAMR? It says that we continue to get more capacity at a lower cost. >> (chuckles) Isn't that just always the goal? >> I agree. >> (chuckles) Alright, well thank you for stopping by and sharing your insight. Really appreciate it. >> Thanks, Jeff. >> Alright. Jeff Frick here at Western Digital. You're watching theCUBE! Thanks for watching. (futuristic beat)

(bright, peppy music) >> Announcer: From Chicago, it's theCUBE. Covering Veritas Vision Solution Day 2018. Brought to you by Veritas. >> Hello everyone, welcome to Chicago. We're here covering the Veritas Solution Day. Veritas, last year, had the Veritas Vision Conference and they brought together all their customers. This year they decided to go around the world, I think they have six or seven of these across the globe. And we just were in New York a few weeks ago at Tavern on the Green. We're here at the Palmer House in Chicago. Iconic hotel. About 60 to 70 customers here. Of course Chicago's a big opportunity for companies like Veritas because there's such a good customer base here. But what I want to do now is set up what's going on in the data protection business. According to a number of sources, Gartner, IDC Data, other survey data, certainly anecdotally when we talk to customers, about half of the customers that we talk to are going to replace their data protection platform within the next five years. Why is that? Well, there are a number of factors that are affecting that and I want to talk about the reasons why, the implications to the market, and what that means for customers. So if you look back 10 years ago, there was a similar dynamic going on catalyzed by the ascendancy of virtualization. What was happening is that you had all these servers that were underutilized and so the brilliance of virtualization was we're going to consolidate those servers, virtualize the compute power, dramatically increase the utilization and reduce the physical capacity that's on the floor. So you can get rid of stuff. Get rid of servers, spend less, and get more value out of that asset. Because you had all these underutilized hardware assets. Data protection backup in particular was the one workload that actually could use all that compute power. Why, because at the end of the day, you're backing up this huge stream of data. And so as a result, when you had to do a full backup, you didn't have the physical resources. So people had to rethink how they architected backup because of virtualization. So you now have a similar dynamic, but for different reasons. Some of the big trends that are going on here. The first one is of course digital. So digital means data and it's all about how you get value out of your data because data is increasingly an important asset. People are realizing that protecting that data is more and more important. As a result, people are rethinking just the definition of recovery. Recovery has to be faster, you've got to be always on in this digital world. So digital transformation is critical. You can't just bolt on backup as you have for the last 20, 30, 40 years really. Backup has been a bolt on. You've also got cloud. Everybody wants cloud-like. So you're seeing a shift from improving or dealing with resource utilization and allocation, as I explained in the virtualization world, now to automation. Why automation? Because people want a cloud-like experience. They realize they can't just shove all their data into the public cloud. There's data all over the place, and I'll talk about that in a moment in terms of distributed data, but specifically people want a cloud-like experience. What does that mean? That means they want pay-as-you-go, they want simple deployment, they want fast seamless recovery, and they want a lot of automation. While the price of technology comes down year after year, the price of people doesn't. And you can't just keep throwing people at the infrastructure problem, because it's so complex, you have to automate. And you want to shift resources toward higher value activities. Digital transformation, dev opps, application development. So this distributed data world, this multi-cloud world, and I'll talk a little bit more about that in a moment when I discuss the Edge, it's becoming a forcing function. Multi-cloud is a forcing function to rethink your backup. Because you've got different infrastructures, a service providers, you've got SAS providers, you've got all kinds of clouds that are popping up all over the lines of business and within your own data centers. As a result, you need to think about how do I catalog all that data, how do I protect that data, how do I govern that data, how do I deal with things like GDPR and make sure that I'm in compliance. So it becomes a much more complicated equation, and the variables are distinct. For example, I don't really understand what point in time means anymore. If you have distributed data, what does it mean to have a point in time copy? Point in what time? Who's the master? So you need some kind of controls in that multi-cloud world. That's a forcing function to rethink your backup. The other thing is platform. Platform beats products. I'll talk about that in a moment. People for years have looked at backup as purely insurance. Everybody hates buying insurance, we all know that, so you're seeing people trying to get more out of their backup and recovery platforms. For instance, integrating disaster recovery. So that's becoming an integral part of people's strategies. You're also seeing analytics becoming more and more important. People are trying to, because all the data sits in the corpus of the backup, people are saying why don't we analyze that data and get more out of it. Why don't we take snapshots of that data and make it available to dev opps. And what about ransomware, which again I'll talk about in a moment. Could I maybe look at anomalies in that data to determine if there are some problems. Many, many use cases emerging. Data classification, governance, I mentioned GDPR before, so you're seeing backup shift from pure insurance to a higher value business opportunity. And then of course, there's security, there's compliance, there's governance, ransomware is critical. Organizations are creating air gaps, meaning disconnecting from the internet, so that if they get hit with a ransomware attack they can isolate their data, but just even that is not enough. People can get through air gaps by physically putting in, whatever. Sticks or malware et cetera. So you still have to be able to use analytics to look at that corpus of backup data and identify anomalies. But again, because of those security risks and because of the importance of digital transformation and data people are rethinking how they do data protection. And finally, there's the Edge. We are living in a distributed world, it's a multi-cloud world, as I said before it's a forcing function, and the Edge is one of those clouds, if you will, which changes the way in which you think about backup. How does it change. Locality of the recovery data. If you've got Edge data, if you've got multi-cloud, you've, as I said before, got to have a global catalog and recover that data locally. Another thing to think about is SLAs. In a cloud world, you, the customer, are responsible for the recovery. Well, the cloud vendor can get the light back on on the disc system, or the computer, or the compute system, you are responsible for the people and the process to recover your business. That is not the cloud vendor's responsibility so you need to think about that. And think about recovery as recovery at the business level, not just recovery of the data, but recovery, getting your business back online. There's also the three laws of the cloud. We learned this from Pat Gelsinger this August at VMworld. The laws of physics, the laws of economics, and the law of the land. Those will dictate where you put data and how you back up that data. So all of this has created a new landscape in the data protection business. Let's run down that landscape. Who are the leaders. You've got Dell EMC, you've got Veritas, you've got Convault, and you've got IBM. Those guys comprise probably 2/3 or more of the marketplace. And you have startups like Cohesity and Rubrik who have raised hundreds of millions of dollars going after them and challenging them. You've got a whole new set of players that are taking new approaches. Actifio, for example, got the whole copy data management thing going. Datrium is creating end to end, both primary storage and data protection backup in the same platform with a software-based cloud-like, SAS-like offering. You've got companies like Zerto and Imanis Data that are specialists. You've got companies like WANdisco, again, taking new approaches. And then you have Oracle, with the Oracle recovery appliance, which is totally changing the way in which backup worked for Oracle databases exclusively. Taking a database-led approach to backup. And then of course you've got the storage players that are part of the ecosystem even though they're not directly competing with backup software vendors. Guys like Pure, NetApp, InfiniteApp. They're partnering with backup vendors. And then of course, there's the cloud guys. AWS, Azure, Google. The thing to think about as customers, really three things. Platform versus product. What's the platform look like? Is it an API-based platform? Because you want to program to that platform infrastructurer's code, you want to support your dev opps infrastructure. The second is cloud-like pricing, and cloud-like deployment. You want a cloud-based operating model to simplify your operations and lower your IT labor costs and shift those costs to more strategic efforts and initiatives such as digital transformation and application development. And the third is ecosystem alignment. Make sure that your backup software vendor and you backup solution vendors are all, their ecosystem is aligned with your ecosystem. Because you're going to get more facile integration and problem-solving and flexibility if those systems align. So take a look at that as well. Couple of things I want to mention and emphasize. New application development models. Cloud Native, Kubernetes. Function, you know people call it server-less, but function-based programming. Really to support dev opps and infrastructure as a code. That is going to have implications on how you protect data. And finally AI. How can you talk about anything today without talking about AI. Anticipatory staging of data for recovery, as in the example. Predicting where problems are going to occur. Machine intelligence will increasingly play a role in this whole landscape. So, as you can see, there's a lot going on. This is why data protection is such a hot space. That's why the VCs are getting in. It's why the incumbents like Veritas, Dell EMC, IBM, Convault, those that I mentioned are trying to re-platform and hang on to their large install bases and ultimately grow them. And it's why companies in the startup and the niche spaces, are tucking in and identifying new opportunities to participate. So that's a quick overview of what's going on here at the Veritas Vision Solution Day from Chicago. We'll be here all day talking to customers, talking to practitioners, technologists, and executives. So keep it right there, you're watching theCUBE. I'm Dave Vellante. Be right back. (bright music)