>>Good morning, brilliant humans. Good afternoon or good evening, depending on your time zone. My name is Savannah Peterson and I'm here live with the Cube. We are at CubeCon in Detroit, Michigan. And joining me is my beautiful co-host, Lisa, how you feeling? Afternoon of day three. >>Afternoon day three. We've had such great conversations. We have's been fantastic. The momentum has just been going like this. I love it. >>Yes. You know, sometimes we feel a little low when we're at the end of a conference. Not today. Don't feel that that way at all, which is very exciting. Just like the guests that we have up for you next. Kind of an unexpected player when we think about technology. However, since every company, one of the themes is every company is trying to be a software company. I love that we're talking to I n G. Joining us today is Ty Evers and Arno vk. Welcome to the show gentlemen. Thank >>You very much. Glad to be you. Thank you. >>Yes, it's wonderful. All the way in from Amsterdam. Probably some of the farthest flying folks here for this adventure. Starting off. I forgot what's going on with the shirts guys. You match very well. Tell, tell everyone. >>Well these are our VR code shirts. VR code is basically the player of our company to get people interested as an IT person in banking. Right? Actually, people don't think banking is a good place to work as an IT professional, but actually this, and we are using the OC went with these nice logos to get it attention. >>I love that. So let's actually, let's just talk about that for a second. Why is it such an exciting role to be working in technology at a company like I N G or traditional bank? >>I N G is a challenging environment. That's how do you make an engineer happy, basically give them a problem to solve. So we have lots and lots of problems to solve. So that makes it challenging. But yeah, also rewarding. And you can say a lot of things about banks and with looking at the IT perspective, we are doing amazing things in I and that's what we talked about. Can >>You, can you tell us any of those amazing things or are they secrets? >>Think we talked about last Tuesday at S shift commons conference. Yeah, so we had two, two presentations I presented with my coho sand on my journey over the last three years. So what has IG done? Basically building a secure container hosting platform. Yeah. How do we live a banking cot with cloud native technology and together with our coho young villa presented actually showed it by demo making life and >>Awesome >>In person. So we were not just presenting, >>It's not all smoke and mirrors. It's >>Not smoke and mirror, which we're not presenting our fufu marketing block now. We actually doing it today. And that's what we wanted to share here. >>Well, and as consumers we expect we can access our banking on any device 24 by seven. I wanna be able to do all my transactions in a way that I know is secure. Obviously security's a huge thing there, but talk about I n G Bank aren't always been around for a very long time. Talk about this financial institution as a software company. Really obviously a lot of challenges to solve, a lot of opportunity. But talk about what it's like working for a history and bank that's really now a tech company. >>Yes. It's been really changing as a bank to a tech company. Yeah. We have a lot of developers and operators and we do deliver offer. We OnPrem, we run in the public. So we have a huge engineers and people around to make our software. Yes. And I am responsible for the i Container Ocean platform and we deliver that the name space as a surface and as a real, real secure environment. So our developers, all our developers in, I can request it, but they only get a name space. Yeah, that's very important there. They >>Have >>Resources and all sort of things. Yeah. And it is, they cannot access it. They can only access it by one wifi. So, >>So Lisa and I were chatting before we brought you up here. Name space as a service. This is a newer term for us. Educate us. What does that mean? >>Basically it means we don't give a full cluster to our consumers, right? We only give them basically cpu, memory networking. That's all they need to host application. Everything else we abstract away. And especially in a banking context where compliance is a big thing, you don't need to do compliance for an entire s clusterized developer. It's really saves development time for the colleagues in the bank. It >>Decreases the complexity of projects, which is a huge theme here, especially at scale. I can imagine. I mean, my gosh, you're serving so many different people, it probably saves you time. Let's talk about regulation. What, how challenging is that for you as technologists to balance in all the regulations around banking and FinTech? It's, it's, it's, it's not like some of these kind of wild, wild west industries where we can just go out and play and prototype and do whatever we want. There's a lot of >>Rules. There's a lot of rules. And the problem is you have legislation and you have the real world. Right. And you have to find something in, they're >>Not the same thing. >>You have to find something in between with both parties on the stands and cannot adhere to. Yeah. So the challenge we had, basically we had to wide our, in our own container security standards to prove that the things we were doing were the white things to be in control as a bank because there was no market standard for container security. So basically we took some input from this. So n did a lot of good work. We basically added some things on top to be valid for a bank in Europe. So yeah, that's what we did. And the nice thing is today we take all the boxes we defined back in 2019. >>Hey, so you what it's, I guess, I guess the rules are a little bit easier when you get to help define them. Yep. Yeah. That it feels like a very good strategic call >>And they makes sense. Yeah. Right. Because the hardest problem is try to be compliant for something which doesn't make sense. Right, >>Right. Arnold, talk about, let's double click on namespace as a service. You talked about what that is, but give us a little bit of information on why I N G really believes this is the right approach for this company. >>It's protects for the security that developers doing things they don't shoot. Yeah. They cannot access their store anymore when it is running in production. And that is the most, most important. That is, it is immutable running in our platform. >>Excellent. Talk about both of you. How long have you, have you both been at I n G for a long time? >>I've been with I N G since September, 2001. So that's more than 20 years >>Now. Long time. Ana, what about you? >>Before 2000 already before. >>So both of your comment on that's a long time. Yeah. Talk about the culture of innovation that's at I N G to be able to move at such speed and be groundbreaking in what you're, how you're using technology, what, what's the appetite like at the bank to embrace new and emerging technologies? >>So we are really looking, basically the, the mantra of the bank is to help our customers get a step ahead in life and in business. And we do that by one superior customer service and secondly, sustainability at the heart. So anything which contributes to those targets, you can go to your manager and if you can make goods case why it contributes most of the cases you get some time or some budgets or even some additional colleagues to help you out and give it a try require from a culture perspective required open to trying things out before we reach production. Once you go to production. Yeah. Then we are back to being a bank and you need to take all the boxes to make really sure that we are confident with our customers data and basically we're still a bank but a lot of is possible. >>A lot. It is possible. And there's the customer on the other end who's expecting, like I said earlier, that they can access their data any time that they want, be able to do any transaction they want, making sure the content that's delivered to them is relevant, that it's secure. Obviously with, that's the biggest challenge especially is we think about how many generations are alive today and and those that aren't tech savvy. Yeah. Have challenges with that. Talk about what the bank's dedication is to ensuring from a security perspective that its customers don't have anything to worry about. >>That's always a thin line between security and the user experience. So I n g, like every other bank needs to make choices. Yes. We want the really ease of customers and take the risk that somebody abuses it or do we make it really, really secure and alienate part of our customer base. And that's an ongoing, that's a, that's a a hard, >>It's a trade off. That's >>A line. >>So it's really hard. Interesting part is in Netherlands we had some debates about banks closing down locations, but the moment we introduced our mobile weapon iPads, basically the debates became a lot quieter because a lot of elderly people couldn't work with an iPhone. It turned out they were perfectly fine with a well-designed iPad app to do their banking. Really? >>Okay. >>But that's already learning from like 15 years ago. >>What was the, what was the product roadmap on that? So how, I mean I can imagine you released a mobile app, you're not really thinking that. >>That's basically, I think that was a heavy coincidence. We just, Yeah, okay. Went out to design a very good mobile app. Yeah. And then looking out afterwards at the statistics we say, hey, who was using this way? We've got somebody who's signing on and I dunno the exact age, but it was something like somebody of 90 plus who signed on to use that mobile app. >>Wow. Wow. I mean you really are the five different generations living and working right now. Designing technology. Everybody has to go to the bank whether we are fans of our bank or we're not. Although now I'm thinking about IG as a bank in general. Y'all have a a very good attitude about it. What has kept you at the company for over 20 years? That is we, we see people move around, especially in this technology industry. Yes. Yeah. You know, every two to three years. Sometimes obviously you're in positions of leadership, they're obviously taking good care of you. But I mean multiple decades. Why have you stuck? >>Well first I didn't have the same job in I N D for two decades. Nice. So I went around the infrastructure domain. I did storage initially I did security, I did solution design and in the end I ended up in enterprise architecture. So yeah, it's not like I stuck 20 years in the same role. So every so years >>Go up the ladder but also grow your own skill sets. >>Explore. Yeah. >>So basically I think that's what's every, everybody should be thinking in these days. If you're in a cloud head industry, if you're good at it, you can out quite a nice salary. But it also means that you have some kind of obligation to society to make a difference. And I think, yeah, >>I wouldn't say that everybody feels that way. I >>Need to make a difference with I N G A difference for being more available to our consumers, be more secure to, to our consumers. I, I think that's what's driving me to stick with the company. >>What about you R Now? >>Yes, for me it's very important. Every two, three years are doing new things. I can work with the latest technology so I become really, really innovative so that it is the place to be. >>Yeah. You sort of get that rotation every two to three years with the different tools that you're using. Speaking of or here we're at Cuan, we're talking cloud native, we're talking Kubernetes. Do you think it's possible to, I'm coming back to the regulations. Do you think it's possible to get to banking grade security with cloud native Tech? >>Initially I said we would be at least as secure traditional la but last Tuesday we've proven we can get more secure than situational it. So yeah, definitely. Yes. >>Awesome. I mean, sounds like you proved it to yourself too, which is really saying something. >>Well we actually have Penta results and of course I cannot divulge those, but I about pretty good. >>Can you define, I wanna kind of double book on thanking great security, define what that is, thanking great security and how could other industries aim to Yeah, >>Hit that, that >>Standard. I want security everywhere. Especially my bank. The >>Architecture is zero privilege. So you hear a lot about lease privilege in all the security talks. That's not what you should be aiming for. Zero privilege is what you should be aiming for. And once you're at zero privileged environments, okay, who can leak data because no natural person has access to it. Even if you have somebody invading your infrastructure, there are no privileges. They cannot do privilege escalations. Yeah. So the answer for me is really clear. If you are handling customer data, if you're and customer funds aim for zero privilege architecture, >>What, what are you most excited about next? What's next for you guys? What's next for I n G? What are we gonna be talking about when we're chatting to you Right here? Atan next year or in Amsterdam actually, since we're headed that way in the spring, which is fun. Yes. >>Happy to be your host in Amsterdam. The >>Other way around. We're holding you to that. You've talked about how fun the culture is. Now you're gonna ask, she and I we need, but we need the tee-shirts. We, we obviously need a matching outfit. >>Definitely. We'll arrange some teachers for you as well. Yeah, no, for me, two highlights from this com. The first one was kcp. That can potentially be a paradigm change on how we deal with workloads on Kubernetes. So that's very interesting. I don't know if you see any implementations by next year, but it's definitely something. Looks >>Like we had them on the show as well. Yeah. So it's, it's very fun. I'm sure, I'm sure they'll be very flattered that you just just said. What about you Arnoldo that got you most excited? >>The most important for me was talking to a lot of Asian is other people. What if they thinking how we go forward? So the, the, the community and talk to each other. And also we found those and people how we go forward. >>Yeah, that's been a big thing for us here on the cube and just the energy, the morale. I mean the open source community is so collaborative. It creates an entirely different ethos. Arna. Ty, thank you so much for being here. It's wonderful to have you and hear what I n g is doing in the technology space. Lisa, always a pleasure to co-host with you. Of course. And thank you Cube fans for hanging out with us here on day three of Cuban Live from Detroit, Michigan. My name is Savannah Peterson and we'll see you up next for a great chat coming soon.

>>Good afternoon everyone, and welcome back to Cuan where my cohost John Farer and I are broadcasting live, along with Lisa Martin from Cuan Detroit, Michigan. We are joined this afternoon by two very interesting gentlemen who also happen to be legends on the cube. John, how long have you known the next few? They've, >>They've made their mark on the cube with Jerry Chen from Greylock was one of our most attended cube guests. He's a VC partner at Greylock and an investor and this company that just launched their new cloud observability platform should be a great segment. >>Well, I'm excited. I are. Are you excited? Should I string this out just a little bit longer? No, I won't. I won't do that to you. Please welcome Martin and Jeff from Chronosphere Martin. Jeff, thank you so much for being >>Here. Thank you for having us. Thank you. >>I noticed right away that you have raised a mammoth series C. Yeah. 200 million if I'm not mistaken. >>That is correct. >>Where's the company at? >>Yeah, so we raised that series C a year ago. In fact, we were just talking about it a year ago at Cub Con. Since then, at the time we're about 80 employees or so. Since then, we've tripled the headcount, so we're over 200 people. Casual, triple casual, triple of the headcount. Yeah. Luckily it was the support of business, which is also tripled in the last year. So we're very lucky from that perspective as well. And a couple of other things we're pretty proud of last year. We've had a hundred percent customer retention, which is always a great thing to have as a SaaS platform there. >>Real metric if you've had a hundred percent. I'm >>Kidding. It's a good metric to, to put out there if you had a hundred percent. I would say for sure. It's an A for sure and exactly welcome to meet >>Anyone else who's had a hundred percent >>Customer attention here at coupon this week and 90% of our customers are using more of the service and, and you know, therefore paying more for the service as well. So those are great science for us and I think it shows that we're clearly doing something right on the product side. I would say. And >>Last and last time you're on the cube. We're talking about about the right data. Not so much a lot of data, if I remember correctly. Yeah, a hundred percent. And that was a unique approach. Yeah, it's a data world on relative observability. And you guys just launched a new release of your platform, cloud native platform. What's new in the platform? Can you share an update on what you guys release? >>Yeah, well we did and, and you, you bring up a great point. You know, like it's not just in observably but overall data is exploding. Alright, so three things there. It's like, hey, can your platform even handle the explosion of data? Can it control it over time and make sure that as your business grows, the data doesn't continue explode at the same time. And then for the end users, can they make sense of all this data? Cuz what's the point of having it if the end users can't make sense of it? So actually our product announcement this time is a pretty big refresh of, of a lot of features in our, in our platform. And it actually tackles all three of these particular components. And I'll let Jeff, our head of product, Doug, >>You, you run product, you get the keys to the kingdom, I do product roadmap. People saying, Hey this, take this out. You're under a lot of pressure. What makes the platform platform a great observability product? >>So the keystone of what we do that's different is helping you control the data, right? As we're talking about there's an infinite amount of data. These systems are getting more and more and more complicated. A lot of what we do is help you understand the utility of the telemetry so that you can optimize for keeping and storing and paying for the data that's actually helpful as opposed to the stuff that isn't. >>What's the benefit now with observability, with all the noise out in the marketplace, there's been a shift over the past couple years. Cloud native at scale, you're seeing a lot more automation, almost a set to support the growth for more application development. We had a Docker CEO on earlier today, he said there are more applications being deployed in the past year than in the history of open source. So more and more apps are being deployed, more data's being generated. What's the key to observability right now that's gonna separate the winners from the losers? >>Yeah, I think, you know, not only are there more applications being deployed, but there are smaller and small applications being deployed mostly on containers these days more than if they, hence this conference gets larger and larger every year. Right? So, you know, I think the key is a can your system handle this data explosion is, is the first thing. Not only can it handle the data explosion, but you know, APM solutions have been around for a very long time and those were really introspecting into an application. Whereas these days what's more important is, well how is your application interfacing with every other application in your distributed architecture there, right? So the use case is slightly different there. And then to what Jeff was saying is like once the data is there, not only making use of what is actually useful to you, but then having the end user make sense of it. >>Because we, we, we always think about the technology changes. We forget that the end users are different now we used to have IT operations team operating everything and the developers would write the application, just throw it over the wall. These days the developers have to actually operate this thing in production. So the end users of these systems are very different as well. And you can imagine these are folks, your average developer as maybe not operated things for many years in production before. So they need to, that they need to pick up a new skill set, they need to use new tooling in order to, to do that. So yeah, it's, it's, >>And you got the developer persona, you got a developer that's building products for builders and developers that are building products to be consumed. So they're not, they're not really infrastructure builders, they're just app developers. >>Exactly. Exactly. That's right. And that's what a lot of the new functionality that we're introducing here at the show is all about is helping developers who build software by day and are on call by night, actually get in context. There's so much data chances of when that, when one of those pages goes off and your number comes up, that the problem happens to be in the part of the system that you know a lot about are pretty low, chances are you're gonna get bothered about something else. So we've built a feature, we call it collections that's about putting you in the right context and connecting you into the piece of the system where the problem is to orient you and to get you started. So instead of waiting through, through hundreds of millions of things, you're waiting through the stuff that's in the immediate neighborhood of where the >>Problem is. Yeah. To your point about data, you can't let it go unchecked. That's right. You gotta gotta understand that. And we were talking about containers again with, again with docker, you know, nuance point, but oh, scan your container. But not everyone's scanning the containers security nightmare, right? I mean, >>Well I think one of the things that I, I loved in reading the notes in preparation for you coming up is you've actually created cloud native observability with the goal of eliminating engineering burnout. And what you're talking about there is actually the cognitive burden of when things happen. Yeah, for sure. We we're, you know, we're not just designing for when everything goes right, You need to be prepared for when everything goes wrong and that poor lonely individual in the middle of the night has, it's >>A tough job. >>Has to navigate that >>And, and observability is just one thing you gotta mean like security is another thing. So, so many more things have been piled on top of the developer in addition to actually creating the application. Right? It is. There is a lot. And you know, observably is one of those key things you need to do your job. So as much as, as much as we can make that easier, that's a better bit. Like there are so many things being piled on right now. >>That's the holy grail right there. Because they don't want to be doing exactly >>The work. Exactly. They're not observability experts. >>Exactly. And automating that in. So where do you guys weigh in on the automation wave? Everything's automation. Yeah. Is that kind of a hand waving or what's going on? What's the reality? What's actually happening? >>Yeah, I think automation I think is key. You hear a lot of ai ml ops there. I, I don't know if I really believe in that or having a machine self heal itself or anything like that. But I think automation is key because there are a lot of repeatable tasks in a lot of what you're doing. So once you detect that something goes wrong, generally if you've seen it before, you know what the fix is. So I think automation plays a key on the sense that once it's detected again the second time, the third time, okay, I know what I did the previous time, let, let's make sure we can do that again. So automation I think is key. I think it helps a lot with the burnout. I dunno if I'd go as far as the >>Same burnout's a big deal. >>Well there's an example again in the, in the stuff we're releasing this week, a new feature we call query accelerator. That's a form of automation. Problem is you got all this data, mountain of data, put you in the right context so you're at least in the right neighborhood, but now you need to query it. You gotta get the data to actually inform the specific problem you're trying to solve. And the burden on the developer in that situation is really high. You have to know what you're looking for and you have to know how to efficiently ask for it. So you're not waiting for a long time and >>We >>Built a feature, you tell us what you want, we will figure out how to get it for you efficiently. That's the kind of automation that we're focused on. That's actually a good service. How can we, it >>Sounds >>Blissful. How can we accelerate and optimize what you were gonna do anyway, rather than trying to read your mind or predict the future. >>Yes, >>Savannah, some community forward. Yeah, I, I'm, so I'm curious, you, you clearly lead with a lot of empathy, both of you and, and putting your, well you probably have experience with this as well, but putting your mind or putting yourself in the mind to the developer are, what's that like for you from a product development standpoint? Are you doing a lot of community engagement? Are you talking to developers to try and anticipate what they're gonna be needing next in terms of, of your offering? Or how has that work >>For you? Oh, for sure. So, so I run product, I have a lot of product managers who work for me. Somebody that I used to work with, she was accusing me, but what she called, she called me an anthropologist of a product manager. I >>Get these kind of you, the very good design school vibes from you both of you, which >>Is, and the reason why she said the way you do this, you go and you live with them in order to figure out what a day in their life is really like, what the job is really like, what's easy, what's hard. And that's what we try to aim at and try to optimize for. So that's very much the way that we do all of >>Our work. And that's really also highlights the fact that we're in a market that requires acute realtime data from the customer. Cause it's, and it's all new data. Well >>Yeah, it's all changing. The tools change every day. I mean if we're not watching how, and >>So to your point, you need it in real time as well. The whole point of moving to cloud native is you have a reliable product or service there. And like if you need to wait a few minutes to even know that something's wrong, like you've already lost at that point, you've already lost a ton of customers, potentially. You've already lost a ton of business. You know, to your point about the, the community earlier, one other thing we're trying to do is also give back to the community a little bit. So actually two days ago we just announced the open source of a tool that we've been using in our product for a very long time. But of course our product is, is a paid product, right? But actually open source a part of that tool thus that the broader community can benefit as well. And that tool which, which tool is that? It's, it's called Prom lens. And it's actually the Prometheus project is the open sourced metrics project that everybody uses. So this is a query builder that helps developers understand how to create queries in a much more efficient way. We've had in our product for a long time, but we're like, let's give that back to the community so that the broader community of developers out there can have a much easier time creating these queries as well. What's >>Been the feedback? >>We only now it's two days ago so I'm not, I'm not exactly sure. I imagine >>It's great. They're probably playing with it right now. >>Exactly. Exactly. Exactly. For sure. I imagine. Great. >>Yeah, you guys mentioned burnout before and we heard this a lot now you mentioned in terms of data we've been hearing and reporting about Insta security world, which is also data specific observability ties right into security. Yep. How does a company figure out, first of all, burnout's a big problem. It's more and more data coming. It's like, it's like doesn't stop and the breaches are coming too. How does a company know when they need that their observability strategy is broken? Is there sig signs of you know, burnout? Is there signs of breaches? I mean, what are some of the tell signs that if I'm a CSO I go, you know what, maybe I should check out promisee. When do, when do you guys match in and go we're a perfect fit to solve that problem? >>Yeah, I, I would say, you know, because we're focused on the observability side, less so on the security side, some of those signals are like how many incidents do you have? How many outages do you have? What's the occurrence of these things and how long does it take to recover from from from these particular incidents? How >>Upsetting are we finding customers? >>Upsetting are >>Customer. Exactly. >>And and one trend was seeing >>Not churn happening. Exactly. >>And one trend we're seeing in the industry is that 68% of companies are saying that they're having more incidents over time. Right. And if you have more incidents, you can imagine more engineers are being paid, are being woken up and they're being put under more stress. And one thing you said that very interesting is, you know, I think generally in the observability world, you ideally actually don't want to figure out the problem when it goes wrong. Ideally what you want to do these days is figure out how do I remediate this and get the business back to a running state as quickly as I can. And then when the business isn't burning, let me go and figure out what the underlying root cause is. So the strategy there is changed as well from the APM days where like I don't want to figure out the problem in real time. I wanna make sure my business and my service is running as it should be. And then separately from that, once it is then I wanna go >>Under understand that assume it's gonna happen, be ready to close that isolate >>The >>Fire. Exactly. Exactly. And, and you know, you can imagine, you know the whole movement towards C I C D, like generally when you don't touch a system, nothing goes wrong. You deploy change, first thing you do is not figure out why you change break thing. Get that back like underplay that change roll that change back, get your business back to a estate and then take the time where you're not under pressure, you're not gonna be burnt out to figure out what was it about my change that that broke everything. So, yeah. Got >>It. >>Well it's not surprising that you've added some new exciting customers to the roster. We have. We have. You want to tell the audience who they might >>Be? Yes. It's been a few big names in the last year we're pretty excited about. One is Snapchat, I think everybody knows, knows that application And one is Robin Hood. So you know, you can imagine very large, I'll say tech forward companies that have completed their migrations to, to cloud native or a wallet on their way to Cloudnative and, and we like helping those customers for sure. We also like helping a lot of startups out there cause they start off in the cloud native world. Like if you're gonna build a business today, you're gonna use Kubernetes from day one. Right? But we're actually interestingly seeing more and more of is traditional enterprises who are just early, pretty early on in their cloudnative migration then now starting to adopt cloud native at scale and now they're running to the same problems. As well >>Said, the Gartner data last year was something like 85% of companies had not made that transformation. Right. So, and that, I mean that's looking at larger scale companies, obviously >>A hundred, you're >>Right on the pulse. They >>Have finished it, but a lot of them are starting it now. So we're seeing pilot >>Projects, testing and cadence. And I imagine it's a bit of a different pace when you're working with some of those transforming companies versus those startups that are, are just getting rolling. I >>Love and you know, you have a lot of legacy use case you have to, like, if you're a startup, you can imagine there's no baggage, there's no legacy. You're just starting brand new, right? If you're a large enterprise, you have to really think about, okay, well how do I get my active business moved over? But yeah. >>Yeah. And how do you guys see the whole cloud native scale moving with the hyper scales? Like aws? You've got a lot of multi-cloud conversation. We call it super cloud in our narrative, but there's now this new, we're gonna get some of common services being identified. We're seeing a, we're seeing a lot more people recognize and with Kubernetes that hey, you know what, you could get some common services maybe across clouds with SOS doing storage. We got Min iOS doing some storage. Yeah. Cloud flare, I mean starting to see a lot more non-hyper scale systems. >>Yeah, I mean I, and I think that's the pattern there and I think it, it's, especially for enterprise at the top end, right? You see a, a lot of companies are trying to de-risk by saying, Hey, I, I don't want to bet maybe on one cloud provider, I sort of need to hedge my bets a little bit. And Kubernetes is a great tool to go do that. You can imagine some of these other tools you mentioned is a great way to do that. Observability is another great way to do that. Or the cloud providers have their observability or monitoring tooling, but it's really optimized just for that cloud provider, just for those services there. So if you're really trying to run either your custom applications or a multi-cloud approach, you really can't use one cloud providers solution to go solve that problem. Do you >>Guys see yourselves with that unifying >>Layer? We, we, we are a little bit as that lay because it's agnostic to each of the cloud providers. And the other thing is we actually like to understand where our customers run and then try to run their observability stack on a different cloud provider. Cuz we use the cloud ourselves. We're not running our own data centers of course, but it's an interesting thing where everybody has a common dependency on the cloud provider. So when us e one ofs hate to call them out, but when us E one ofs goes down, imagine half the internet goes down, right? And that's the time that you actually need observability. Right? Seriously. And every other tooling there. So we try to find out where do you run and then we try to actually run you elsewhere. But yeah, >>I like that. And nobody wants to see the ugly bits anyway. Exactly. And we all know who when we're all using someone when everything >>Exactly. Exactly, exactly. >>People off the internet. So it's very, I, I really love that. Martin, Jeff, thank you so much for being here with us. Thank you. What's next? What, how do people find out, how do they get one of the jobs since three Xing your >>Employee growth? We're hiring a lot. I think the best thing is to go check out our website chronosphere.io. You'll find out a lot about our, our, our careers, our job openings, the culture we're trying to build here. Find out a lot about the product as well. If you do have an observability problem, like that's the best place to go to find out about that as well. Right. >>Fantastic. Well if you want to join a quarter billion, a quarter of a billion dollar rocket ship over here and certainly a unicorn, get in touch with Martin and Jeff. John, thank you so much for joining me for this very special edition and thank all of you for tuning in to the Cube live here from Motor City. My name's Savannah Peterson and we'll see you in a little bit. >>Robert Herbeck. People obviously know you from Shark Tanks, but the Herbeck group has been really laser focused on cyber security. So I actually helped to bring my.

>>And welcome to this cube conversation here in Palo Alto, California. I'm John furrier, host of the cube. We have a great guest coming in remotely from LA Christian Hernandez developer experienced lead at code fresh code fresh IO. Recently they were on our feature at a startup showcase series, season two episode one cloud data innovations, open source innovations, all good stuff, Christian. Thanks for coming on this cube conversation. >>Thank you. Thank you, John. Thank you for having me on, >>You know, I'm I was really impressed with code fresh. My met with the founders on here on the cube because GI ops AI, everything's something ops devs dev sec ops. You've got AI ops. You've got now GI ops, essentially operationalizing the software future is here and software's eating the world is, was written many years ago, but it's open source is now all. So all things software's open source and that's kind of a done deal. It's only getting better and better. Mainstream companies are contributing. You guys are on this wave of, of this open source tsunami and you got cloud scale. Automation's right there, machine learning, all this stuff is now the next gen of, of, of code, right? So you, your code fresh and your title is developer experience lead. What does that mean right now? What does it mean to be a developer experience lead? Like you make sure people having a good experience. Are you developing you figuring out the product? What does that mean? >>Yeah. That's and it's also part of the, the whole Debre explosion that's happening right now. I believe it's, you know, everyone's always asking, well, what, you know, what is developer advocate? What does that mean developer experience? What does that mean? So, so you, you kind of hit the nail on the head a little bit up there in, in the beginning, is that the, the experience of the developer when using a particular platform, right? Especially the code flash platform. That is my responsibility there at code fresh to enable, to enable end users, to enable partners, to enable, you know, anyone that wants to use the code fresh platform for their C I C D and get ops square flows. So that's, that's really my, my corner of the world is to make sure their experience is great. So that's, it's really what, what I'm here to do >>At food fresh. You know, one of the things I can say of my career, you've been kind of become a historian over time. When I was a developer back in the old days, it was simply you compiled stuff, you did QA on it. You packaged it out. You wanted out the door and you know, that was a workflow right now with the cloud. I was talking with your founders, you got new abstraction layers. Cloud has changed again again, open source. So newer things are coming, right? Like, like, like Kubernetes for instance is a great example that came out of the open source kind of the innovations. But that, and Hadoop, we were mentioning before he came on camera from a storage standpoint, kind of didn't make it because it was just too hard. Right. And it made the developer's job harder. And then it made the developer's requirements to be specialized. >>So you had kind of two problems. You had hard to use a lot of friction and then it required certain expertise when the developers just want to code. Right. So, so you have now the motion of, with GI ops, you guys are in the middle of kinda this idea of frictionless based software delivery with the cloud. So what's different now, can you talk about that specific point because no one wants to be, do hard work and have to redo things. Yeah. Shift left and all that good stuff. What's hard now, what do you guys solve? What's the, what's the friction that you're taking out what's to become frictionless. >>Yeah. Yeah. And you, you, you mentioned a very interesting point about how, you know, things that are coming out almost makes it seem harder nowadays to develop an application. You used to have it to where, you know, kind of a, sort of a waterfall sort of workflow where, you know, you develop your code, you know, you compile it. Right. You know, I guess back in the day, Java was king. I think Java still is, has a, is a large footprint out there where you would just compile it, deploy it. If it works, it works. Alright cool. And you have it and you kind of just move it along in its process. Whereas I think the, the whole idea of, I think Netflix came out with like the, the fail often fail fast release often, you know, the whole Atlassian C I C D thing, agile thing came into play. >>Where now it's, it's a little bit more complex to get your code out there delivered to get your code from one environment to the other environment, especially with the, the Avan of Kubernetes and cloud native architecture, where you can deploy and have this imutable infrastructure where you can just deploy and automate so quickly. So often that there needs to be some sort of new process now into place where to have a new process, like GI ops to where it'll, it it's frictionless, meaning that it's, it, it makes it that process a little easier makes that little, that comp that complex process of deploying onto like a cloud native architecture easier. So that way, as you said before, returning the developers to back to what they care about, mot, the most is just code. I just want to code. >>Yeah. You know, the other thing, cool thing, Christian, I wanna bring up and we'll get into some of the specifics around Argo specifically CD is that the community is responding as a kind of, it takes a village kind of mindset. People are getting into this just saying, Hey, if we can get our act together around some de facto workflows and de facto capabilities, everyone wins. It's a rising tide, floats all boats, kind of concept. CNCF certainly has been a big part of that. Even seen some of the big hyper scales getting behind it. But you guys are part of the founding members of the open get ups working group, Amazon Azure, GitHub, red hat Weaveworks and then a ton of contributors. Okay. So this is kind of cool. This means that there's like people behind this thing. Look, we gotta get here faster. What happened at co con this year? You guys had some news around Argo and you had some news around the hosted solution. Can you take a minute to explain two things, one the open community vibe, and then two, what you guys announced at Coon in Spain. >>Yeah. Yeah. So as far as open get ups, that was, you know, as you said before, code fresh was part of that, that founding committee. Right. Of, of group of people trying to figure out, define what get ups is. Right. We're trying to bring it beyond the, you know, the, the hype word, right beyond just like a marketing term to where we actually define what it actually is, because it is actually something that's out there that people are doing. Right. A lot of people, you know, remember that the, the Chick-fil-A story where it's like, they, they are completely doing, you know, this get ops thing, we're just now wanting, putting definition around it. So that was just amazing to see out at there in, in Cuban. And, but like you said, in QAN, we, you know, we're, we're, we're taking some of that, that acceleration that we see in the community to, and we, we announce our, our hosted get ops offering. >>Right. So hosted get ops is something that our customers have been asking for for a while. Many times when, you know, someone wants to use something like Argo CD, the, in, they install it on their cluster, they get up and running. And, but with, with all that comes like the feed and care of that platform, and, you know, not only just keeping the lights on, but also management security, you know, general maintenance, you know, all the things that, that come along with managing a system. And on top of that comes like the scale aspect of it. Right. And so with scale, so a lot of people go with like a hub and spoke others, go with like a fleet design in, in either case, right. There's, there's a challenge for the feet and care of it. Right. And so with code fresh coast of get ups, we take that management headache away. >>Right? So we, we take the, the, the management of, of Argo CD, the management of, of all of that, and kind of just offer Argo CD as a surface, right. Which offers, you know, allows users to, you know, let us take care of all the, of the get offs, runtime. And so they can concentrate on, you know, their application deployments. Right. And you also get things like Dora metrics, right. Integrated with the platform, you have the ability to integrate multiple CI providers, you know, like get hub actions or whatever, existing Jenkins pipelines. And really that, that code fresh platform becomes like your get ops platform becomes like, you know, your, your central view of the world of, of your, you know, get ups processes. >>Yeah. I mean, that whole single source of truth concept is really kind of needed. I gotta ask you though, with the popularity of the Argo CD on get ups internally, right. That's been clear, right. Kubernetes, the way that's going, it's accelerating fast. People want simple it's scaling, you got automation built in all that good stuff. What was the driver behind the hosted get up solution? Was it customer needs? Was it efficiency all the above? What was specifically and, and why would someone want to have the hosted versus say internal? >>Yeah. So it's, it was really driven by, you know, customer need been something that the customers have been asking for. And it's also been something that, you know, you, you, you have a process of developing an application to, you know, you know, a fleet of clusters in a traditional, you know, I keep saying traditional, get outs practice as if get outs are so old. And, you know, in, you know, when, when, when people first start out, they'll start, you know, installing Argo city on all these clusters and trying to manage that at scale it's, it's, it, it seemed like there was, you know, it it'd be nice if we can just like, be able to consume this as a service. So we don't have to like, worry about, you know, you know, best practices. We don't have to worry about security. We don't just, all of that is taken care of and managed by us at code fresh. So this is like something that, you know, has been asked for and, and something that, you know, we believe will accelerate, you know, developers into actually developing their, their applications. They don't have to worry about managing >>The platform. So just getting this right. Hosted, managed service by you guys on this one, >>Correct? Yes. >>Okay. Got it. All right. So let me, let me get in the Argo real quick, just to kind of just level set for the folks that are, are leaning into this and then kicking the tires. Where are we with Argo? What, why was it so popular? What did it do specifically? Did it just make it easier for developers to manage and monitor Kubernetes, keep 'em updated? What was the specific value behind Argo? Where, where, where did it come from and why is it so popular? >>Yeah, so Argo the Argo project, which is made up of, of a few tools, usually when people say Argo, they meet, they they're talking about Argo CD, but there's also Argo workflows, Argo events, Argo notifications. And, and like I said before, CD with that, and that is something that was developed internally at Intuit. Right? So for those of who don't know, Intuit is the company behind turbo tax. So for those, those of us in the us, we, we know, you know, we know that season all too well, the tax season. And so that was a tool that was developed internally. >>And by the way, Intuit we've done many years. They're very huge cloud adopters. They've been on that train from the day one. They've been, they've been driving a lot of cloud scale too. Sorry >>To interrupt. Yeah. And, and, and yeah, no, and, and, and also, you know, they, they were always open source first, right. So they've always had, you know, they developed something internally. They always had the, the intention of opensourcing it. And so it was really a tool that was born internally, and it was a tool that helped them, you know, get stuff done with Kubernetes. And that's kind of like the tagline they use for, for the Argo project is you need to get stuff done. They wanted their developers to focus less on deploying the application and more right. More than on writing the application itself. And so the, and so the Argo project is a suite of tools essentially that helps deploy onto Kubernetes, you know, using get ups as that, you know, that cornerstone in design, right in the design philosophy, it's so popular because of the ease of use and developer friendliness aspect of it. It's, it's, it's, it's meant to be simple right. In and simple in a, in a good sense of getting up and running, which attracted, you know, developers from, you know, all around the world. You know, other companies like red hat got into it as well. BlackRock also is, is a, is a big contributor, thousands of other independent contributors as well to the Argo project. >>Yeah. Christian, if you bring up a good point and I'm gonna go on a little tangent here, but I wanna get your reaction to something that Dave ante and I, and our cube team has been kind of riffing on lately. You mentioned, you know, Netflix earlier, you mentioned Intuit. There's a kind of a story that's been developing and, and with traction and momentum and trajectory over the past, say 10 years, the companies that went on the cloud, like Netflix into it, snowflake, snowflake, not so much now, but in terms of open source, they're all contributing lift. They're all contributing back to open source, but they're not cloud providers. Right. So you're seeing that kind of first generation, I's a massive contribution to open source. So open source been around for a while, remember the early days, and we'd all participate on projects, but now you have real companies building IP going open source first because they're on a hyperscale cloud, but they're not the cloud themselves. They took advantage of that. So there's kind of this cycle of flywheel of cloud to open source, not from the vendors themselves like Amazon, which services or Azure, but the people who rode their CapEx and built on that scale, feeding into the open source. And then coming back, this is kind of an interesting dynamic. What's your reaction to that? Do you see that? Yeah. Super cloud kind of vibe there. >>Yeah. Yeah. Well, and, and also it, it, I think it's, it's a, it's indicative that, you know, open source is not only, you know, a way to develop, you know, applications, a way to engineer, you know, your project, but also kind of like a strategic advantage in, in, in such a way. Right. You know, you, you see, you see companies like, like, like even like Microsoft has been going into, you know, open source, right. They they've been going to open source first. They made a, a huge pivot to, you know, using open source as, you know, like, like a, like a strategic direction for, for the company. And I think that goes back to, you know, a little bit for my roots, you know, I, I, I always, I always talk about, you know, I always talk about red hat, right. I always talk about, you know, I was, I was, I was in red hat previously and, you know, you know, red hat being, you know, the first billion dollar open source company. >>Right. I, we always joke is like, well, you know, internally, like we know you were a billion dollar company that sold free software. How, you know, how, how does that happen? But it's, it's, it's really, you know, built into the, built into being able to tap into those expert resources. Yeah. You know, people love using software. People love the software they love using, and they wanna improve it. Companies are now just getting out of their way. Yeah. You know, companies now, essentially, it's just like, let's just get out of the way. Let's let people work on, you know, what they wanna work on. They love the software. They wanna improve it. Let's let them, >>It's interesting. A lot of people love the clouds have all this power. If you think about what we are just riffing on and what you just said, the economics and the organic self-governing has always been the open source way where commercial value is enabled. If you play ball, right. Like, oh, red hat, for instance. And now you're seeing the community kind of be that arbiter of the cloud. So, Hey, if everyone can create value on say AWS or Azure, bring it to open source, everyone benefits across all clouds hope eventually. So the choice aspect comes in. So this community angle is huge. And I think it's changing a lot for the better. And I think this is where we're seeing a lot of that growth. And you guys have been the middle level with the Argo project and get ups specifically in that, in that sector. How have you seen that growth? What some dynamics have you seen power dynamics, organic? Is it governed well, whats some of the, the successes, what are some of the challenges? Can you share your thoughts on the community's growth around get ops and Argo project? >>Yeah, yeah. Yeah. So I've been, you know, part of some of these communities, right? Like the, the open, get, get ops community, the Argos community pretty much from the beginning and, and seeing it developed from an idea to, you know, having all these contributors, having, you know, the, the, the buzzword come out of it, you know, the get ups and it be that being the, you know, having it, you know, all over the, you know, social media, all over LinkedIn, all over all, all these, all these different channels, you know, I I've seen things like get ops con, right. So, you know, being part of the, get ops open, get ops community, you know, one of the things we did was we did get ops con it started as a meetup, you know, couple years ago. And now, you know, it was a, you know, we had an actual event at Cuan in Los Angeles. >>You know, we had like, you know, about 50 people there, but then, you know, Cuan in Valencia this past Cuan we had over 200 people, it was a second largest co-located events in, at Cuan. So that just, just seeing that community and, you know, from a personal standpoint, you know, be being part of that, that the, the community being the, the event chair, right. Yeah. Being, being one of the co-chairs was a, was a moment of pride for me being able to stand up there and just seeing a sea of people was like, wow, we just started with a handful of people at a meetup. And now, you know, we're actually having conferences and, and, and speaking of conference, like the Argo community as well, we put in, you know, we put on a virtual only event on Argo con last year. We're gonna do it in person today. You know, this year. >>Do you have a date on that? Do you have a date on that Argo con 22? >>Two? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Argo con September 19th, 2022. So, you know, mark your calendars, it it's, you know, it's a multi-day event, you know, it's, it's part of something else that I've seen in the community where, you know, first we're talk talking about these meetups. Now we're doing multi-day events. We're, you know, in talks of the open, get ups, you know, get ups can also make that a multi-day event. There's just so many talks in so many people that want to be involved in network that, you know, we're saying, well, we're gonna need more days because there's just so many people coming to these events, you know, in, in, you know, seeing these communities grow, not just from like the engineering standpoint, but also from the end user standpoint, but also from the people that are actually doing these things. And, you know, seeing some of these use cases, seeing some of the success, seeing some of the failures, right? Like people love listening to those talks about postmortems, I think are part of my favorite talks as well. So seeing that community grow is, is, you know, on a personal level, it's, it's a point >>It's like CSI for software developers. You want to curious about >>Exactly >>What happened. You know, you know, it's interesting, you mentioned about the, the multiple events at Coon. You know, the vibe that's going on is a very festival vibe, right? You have organic groups coming together. I remember when they had just started doing the day zero programs. Now you have like, almost like multiple stages of content at these events. It feels like, like a Coachella vibe or some sort of like festival vibe, like a lot of things going on and you, and if you pick your kind of area, but you can move around, I find that the kind of the format de Azure I think is going well these days. What do you think about that? >>Yeah, yeah. No, for sure. It's and, and, and I love that that analogy of Coachella, it does feel like, you know, it's, there's something for everyone and you can find what you like, and you'll find a little, you know, a little group, right. A little click of, of, of people that's probably the wrong term to use, but you know, you, you find, you know, you, you know, like-minded people and, you know, passionate about the same thing, right? Like the security guys, they, you know, you see them all clump together, right? Like you see like the, the developer C I CD get ops guys, we all kind of clump together and start talking, you know, about everything that we're doing. And it's, that's, that's, I think that's really something special that coupon, you know, some, you know, it's gotten so big that it's almost impossible to fit everything in a, in a week, because unless there's just so much to do. And there's so much that that interests, you know, someone, but it's >>A code, a code party is what we call it. It's a code party. Yeah. >>It's, it's a code party for sure. For >>Sure. Nerd nerd Fest on, on steroids. Hey, I gotta get, I wanna wrap this up and give you the final word, Christian. Thanks for coming on. Great insight, great conversation. There's a huge, you guys are in the middle of a hot area, obviously large scale data growth. Kubernetes is scaling beautifully and making it easier at managed services. What people want machine learning's kicking in and, and you get automation building in all favoring, the developer and C I CD pipeline and all that good stuff. People want to learn more. Can you take a minute to put the plug in for code fresh on the certification? How do I get involved? Where are you? Is there levels if I want to jump in and get trained and get fluent on code fresh, can you share commentary and, and, and what the status is? >>Yeah, yeah, for sure. So code fresh is offering a free certification, right? For get ups or Argo CD and get ops. The first of it's kind for Argo CD, first of it's kind for get ops is you can actually go get certified with Argo CD and get ops. You know, we there level one is out right now. You can go take that code, fresh.io/certification. It's out there, sign up, you know, you, you don't, you don't need to pay anything, right. It's, it's something it's a, of a free course. You could take level two is coming soon. Right? So level two is coming soon in the next few months, I believe I don't wanna quote a specific day, but soon because I, but soon I, it it's soon, soon as in, as in months. Right? So, you know, we're, we're counting that down where you can not only level one cert level certification, but a level, two more advanced certification for those who have been using Argo for a while, they can still, you know, take that and be, you know, be able to get, you know, another level of certification for that. So also, you know, Argo con will be there. We're, we're part of the programming committee for Argo con, right? This is a community driven event, but, you know, code fresh is a proud diamond sponsor. So we'll be there. >>Where's it located up to us except for eptember 19th multiday or one day >>It's a, it's a multi-day event. So Argo con from 19, 19 20 and 21 in a mountain view. So it'll be in mountain view in the bay area. So for those of you who are local, you can just drive in. Great. >>I'm write that down. I'll plug it. I'll put in the show notes. >>Awesome. Awesome. Yeah. And you will be there so you can talk to me, you can talk to anyone else at code, fresh talking about Argo CD, you know, find, find out more about hosted, get ups code, fresh.io. You know, you can find us in the Argo project, open, get ups community, you know, we're, we're, we're deep in the community for both Argo and get ups. So, you know, you can find us there as well. >>Well, let's do a follow up in when you're in town, so's only a couple months away and getting through the summer, it's already, I can't believe events are back. So it's really great to see face to face in the community. And there was responding. I mean, co con in October, I think that was kind of on the, that was a tough call and then get to see your own in Spain. I couldn't make it. Unfortunately, I had got COVID came down with it, but our team was there. Open sources, booming continues to go. The next level, new power dynamics are developing in a great way. Christian. Thanks for coming on, sharing your insights as the developer experience lead at code fresh. Thanks so much. >>Thank you, John. I appreciate it. >>Okay. This is a cube conversation. I'm John feer, host of the cube. Thanks for watching.

>>The cube presents, Coon and cloud native con Europe, 2022, brought to you by red hat, the cloud native computing foundation and its ecosystem partners. >>Welcome to Licia Spain in Coon and cloud native con Europe, 2022. I'm Keith Townsend, along with my cohot Paul Gillon, who's been putting in some pretty good work talking to incredible people. And we have, I don't wanna call, heard the face of CNCF, but you kind of introduced me to, you don't know this, but you know, charmer executive director of CNCF. You introduced me to Kuan at Cuan San Diego's my one of my first CU coupons. And I was trying to get my bearings about me and you're on stage and I'm like, okay. Uh, she looks like a reasonable person. This might be a reasonable place to learn about cloud native. Welcome to the show. >>Thank you so much for having me. And that's so nice to hear >><laugh> it is an amazing show, roughly 7,500 people. >>Yes, that's right. Sold out >>Sold. That's a big show. And with that comes, you know, uh, so someone told me, uh, CNCF is an outstanding organization, which it, which it is you're the executive director. And I told them, you know what, that's like being the president of the United States without having air force one. <laugh> like you get home. I dunno >>About that. You >>Get, no, you get all of the, I mean, 7,500 people from across, literally across the world. That's true at Europe. We're in Europe, we're in, we're coming out of times that have been, you know, it can't be overstated. It, this, this is unlike any other times. >>Yes, absolutely >>Difficult decisions. There was a whole co uh, uh, I don't know the term, uh, uh, cuffa uh, or blow up about mask versus no mask. How do you manage just, just the diversity of the community. >>That is such a great question, because I, as I mentioned in my keynote a little bit, right? At this point, we're a community of what, 7.1 million developers. That's a really big group. And so when we think about how should we manage the diversity, the way I see it, it's essential to treat each other with kindness, professionalism, and respect. Now that's easy to say, right. Because it sounds great. Right. Old paper is awesome. Yeah. Yeah. Great >>Concept. 0.1 million people later. >><laugh> exactly. And so, uh, this is why like, uh, I phoned a friend on stage and, um, van Jones came and spoke with us. Who's the renowned CNN contributor, uh, commentator, sorry. And his advice was very much that in such a diverse community, there's always gonna be lots of perspectives, lots opinions. And we need to a always bring the version of ourselves, which we think will empower this ecosystem, BEC what are, what we are doing. If everybody did that, is that gonna be a good thing or a bad thing? And the other is we need to give each other space and grace, um, space to do what we need to do. Grace. If there are mistakes, if there are challenges. And so those are, those are some good principles for us to live by. And I think that in terms of how CNCF tries to enable the diversity, it's by really trying to hear from everybody possible, the vocal loud voices, as well as the folks who you need to reach out a little bit, pull in a little bit. So it's an ongoing, it's an ongoing challenge that we do our best with. >>How do you balance? And I've been to a lot of trade shows and conferences over the years, their trade organizers are very coin operated. You know, they're there, they're there for the money. Yeah. <laugh> and you have traditional trade shows and you have a situation here where an open source community that is motivated by very different, um, principles, but you need to make money. You need the show to be profitable. Uh, you need to sell some sponsorships, but you also need to keep it available and open to the people who, who don't have the big budgets. How are you balancing that? >>So I would actually like to, uh, share something that may not be obvious, which is that we don't actually do the shows to make money. We, um, as you said, like, uh, a lot of trade shows are coin up and the goal there is like, um, well actually they're different kinds of, I think if it's an independent event organization, it can be like, Hey, let's make as much revenue as possible. If it's part of a large, um, large company, like, like cloud provider, et cetera, the events tend to be lost leaders because they're like lead gen, I think, >>But they're, they're lost leaders, but they're profit makers ultimately >>Long term. Yeah. Yeah. It's like top of the funnel. I, I guess for us, we are only doing the events to enable the community and bring people from different companies together. So our goal is to try and break even <laugh> >>Well, that's, that's laudable. Um, the, how big does it get though? I mean, you're at the point with 7,500 attendees here where you're on the cusp of being a really big event, uh, would you limit it size eventually? Or are you just gonna let this thing run? Its course. >>So our inherent belief is that we want to be accessible and open to more and more and more people because the mission is to make cloud native ubiquitous. Right. Uh, and so that means we are excited about growth. We are excited about opening the doors for as everyone, but I think actually the one, one good thing that came out of this pandemic is that we've become a lot more comfortable with hybrid. So we have a virtual component and an in-person component. So combining that, I think makes it well, it's very challenging cause like running to events, but it's also like, it can scale a little bit better. And then if the numbers increase from like, if they double, for example, we're still, I think we're still not in the realm of south by Southwest, which, which feels like, oh, that's the step function difference. So linear increases in number of attendees, I think is a good thing. If, and when we get to the point where it's, um, you know, exponential growth at that point, we have to think about, um, a completely different event really. Right, >>Right. So 7 billion people in the world approaching 8 billion, 7.1 members in the community. Technology is obviously an enabler where I it's enabled me to, to be here and Licia Spain experiencing this beautiful city. There's so much work to be done. What mm-hmm <affirmative> what is the role of CNCF in providing access to education and technology for the rest of the world? >>Absolutely. So, you know, one of the key, uh, areas we focus on is learning and development in supporting the ecosystem in learners beginners to start their cloud native journey or expand their cloud native journey with training certifications, and actually shared this in the keynote every year. Uh, the increase in number of people taking certifications grows by 216% year over year growth. It's a lot, right? And every week about a thousand people are taking a certification exam. So, and we set that up primarily to bring people in and that's one of our more successful initiatives, but we do so many, we do mentorship programs, internship programs. We, uh, a lot of diversity scholarships, these events, it all kind of comes together to support the ecosystem, to grow >>The turning away from the events, uh, toward just toward the CNCF Brit large, you have a growing number of projects. The, the number of projects within CNCF is becoming kind of overwhelming. Is there an upper threshold at which you would, do you tighten the, the limits on, on what projects you will incubate or how big does that tent become? >>Right. I think, you know, when we had 50 projects, we were feeling overwhelmed then too, but we seem to have cop just fine. And there's a reason for that. The reason is that cloud native has been growing so fast with the world. It's a representative of what's going on in our world over the course of the pandemic. As you know, every company became a technology company. People had to like double their engineering staffs over without anybody ever having met in person mm-hmm <affirmative> right. And when that kind of change is going around the world cloud needing be being the scaffolding of how people build and deploy modern software just grew really with it. And the use cases we needed to support grew. That's why the types of projects and kinds of projects is growing. So there's a method. There's a reason to the madness I should say. And I think, um, as the world and, uh, the landscape of technology evolves cloud native will, will evolve and keep developing in either into new projects or consolidation of projects and everything is on the table. >>So I think one of these perceptions Riley Arone is that CNCF is kind of where the big people go to play. If you're a small project and you're looking at CNCF, you're thinking one day I'll get big enough. Like how should small project leaders or leaders of small projects, how should they engage CNCF? >>Totally. And, you know, I want to really change this narrative because, um, in CNCF we have three tiers of projects. There's the graduated ones, which are at the top. These are the most mature ones we really believe and put our sand behind them. They, uh, then there's the incubating projects, which are pretty solid technologies with good usage that are getting there. And then there's the sandbox, which is literally a sandbox and op open ground for innovation. And the bar to entry is low in that it's, uh, easy to apply. There's a mass boat to get you in. And once you're in, you have a neutral IP zone created by being a CNCF project that you can attract more maintainers, more companies can start collaborating. So we, we become an enabler for the small projects, so everybody should know that >>FYI. Yeah. So I won't be interested to know how that, so I have an idea. So let's say I don't have an idea, but let's say that idea have, >>I'm sure you have an idea. <laugh>, I'm >>Sure I have idea. And, and I just don't have the infrastructure to run a project. I need help, but I think it it's going to solve a pro problem. Yeah. What's that application process like, >>So, okay. So you apply after you already have let's a GitHub repo. Okay. Yeah. >>So you, I have a GI help repo. >>Yeah. As in like your pro you've started the project, you started the coding, you've like, put it out there on GitHub, you have something going. And so it's not at just ideal level. Mm-hmm, <affirmative>, it's at like early stage of execution level. Um, and so, and then your question was, how do you apply? >>Yeah. So how do I, so I have, let's say that, uh, let, let's talk about something I'm thinking about doing, and I actually do, is that we're thinking about doing a open store, a cloud native framework for people migrating to the public cloud, to, or to cloud native. There's just not enough public information about that. And I'm like, you know what? I wanna contribute what I know to it. So that's a project in itself, not necessarily a software project, but a IP project, or let's say I have a tool to do that migration. And I put that up on my GitHub report. I want people to iterate on that tool. >>Right. So it would be a simple process of literally there is when you go to, um, our, uh, online, uh, materials, there's a simple process for sandbox where you fill a Google form, where you put in your URL, explain what you're doing, or some basic information hit submit. And we batch process these, um, about every once a month, I think. And, uh, the TC looks at the, what you've filled in, takes a group vote and goes from there. >>When about your operating model, I mean, do, do you, you mentioned you don't look to make a profit in this show. Do you look, and I wanna be sure CNCF is a non-profit, is that correct? Correct. Do you look, what models do you look at in determining your own governance? Do you look at a commercial business? Do you look at a nonprofit? Um, like of ourselves? Yeah. What's your model for how you run CNCF. >>Oh, okay. So it's a nonprofit, as I said, and our model is very simple. We want to raise the funds that we are able to raise in order to then invest them into community initiatives that play the supporter enabler role to all these projects we just talked about. We're not, we are never the project. We are the top cheerleader of the project. Think of us like that. And in terms of, um, but interestingly, unlike, I, I mean, I don't know much about other found, uh, nonprofit session compare, but interestingly, the donating companies are relevant, not just because of their cash that they have put in, but because those companies are part of this ecosystem and they need to, um, them being in this ecosystem, they help create content around cloud native. They, they do more than give us money. And that's why we really like our members, uh, they'll provide contributing engineers to projects. They will help us with marketing with case studies and interviews and all of that. And so it, it becomes this like healthy cycle of it starts with someone donating to become a member, but they end up doing so many different things. Mm-hmm <affirmative> and ultimately the goal is make cloud native ubiquitous and all this goes towards >>That. So talk to me about conflict resolution, because there's some really big projects in CNC, but only some stuff that is changed, literally changing the world, but there's competing interest between some of the projects. I mean, you, you, there there's, if you look at service mesh, there's a lot of service mesh solutions Uhhuh. Yes. And there's just different visions. Where's the CNCF and, and kind of just making sure the community aspect is thought across all of the different or considered across all the different projects as they have the let's say inevitably bump heads. >>Yeah. So by design CNCF was never meant to be a king maker where you picked one project. Right. And I think that's been working out really well because, um, one is when you accept a project, you're not a hundred percent sure that specific one is gonna take over that technology space. Right. So we're leaving it open to see who works it out. The second is that as every company is becoming a technology company, use cases are different. So a service mesh service mesh a might work really well for my company, but it really may not be a fit for your code base. And so the diversity of options is actually a really good thing. >>So talk to me about, uh, saw an interesting note coming out of the keynote yesterday, 65% of the participants here at CU con are new to Kuan. I'm like, oh, I'm a, I'm a vet. You are, I went to two or three before this. So O GE yeah, OG actually, that's what I tweeted OG of Kuan, but, uh, who, who are they like, what's making up? Are they developers? Are they traditional enterprises? Are they contributing companies? Who's the 65%, >>Um, who's the 65%, >>Right? The new, new, >>Well, it's all kinds of C companies sending their developers, right? It's sometimes there's a lot of them are end users. I think at least half or a third, at least of attendees are end user companies. And, uh, then there is also like the new startups around town. And then there is like the, every big company or small has been hiring developers as fast as possible. And even if they've always been a player in cloud native, they need to send all these people to this ecosystem to start building the relationships start like learning the technology. So it's all kinds of folks are collecting to that here. >>As I, as I think about people starting to learn the technologies, learn the communities, the one thing the market change for this coupon for me over others is the number of customers, sharing stories, end user organizations. Mm-hmm, <affirmative>, mm-hmm, <affirmative> much of the cuon that I've been through many of the open source conferences. It's always been like vendors pushing their message, et cetera. What talk, tell me about that. C change. >>One thing that's like just immediate, um, and the case right now is that all the co-chairs for the event who are in charge of designing the agenda are end users. So we have Emily Fox from apple. We have Jasmine James from Twitter, and we have Ricardo Roka from se. So they're all end users. So naturally they're like, you know, picking talks that they're like, well, this is very relevant. Imma go for that and I'm here for it. Right? So that's one thing that's just happening. The other though is a greater trend, which is, as I was saying in the pandemic, so many companies has to get going and quickly that they have built expertise and users are no longer the passive recipients of information. They're equal contributors. They know what they need, what they want, they have experiences to share. And you're seeing that reflected in the conference. >>One thing I've seen at other conferences in the past that started out really for practitioners, uh, is that invariably, they want to go upscale and they wanna draw the CIOs and the, oh yeah. The, uh, you know, the executive, the top executives. Is that an objective, uh, for you or, or do you really want to keep this kind of a, a t-shirt crowd for the long term? >>Hey, everyone's welcome. That's really important, you know? Right. And, um, so we, and that's why we are trying to expand. It's like, you know, middle out as they had in the Silicon valley show the idea being, sorry, I just meant this a little. Okay. So the idea being that we've had the core developer crews, developer, DevOps, SRE crowd, right op over the course of the last virtual events, we actually expanded in the other direction. We put in a business value track, which was more for like people in the business, but not in as a developer or DevOps engineer. We also had a student thing where it's like, you're trying to get all the university crowd people, and it's been working phenomen phenomenally. And then actually this, this event, we went, uh, in the other direction as well. We hosted our inaugural CTO summit, which is for senior leadership and end user companies. And the idea is they're discussing topics of technology that are business relevant. So our topic this time was resiliency in multi-cloud and we're producing a research paper about it. That's gonna come out in some weeks. So BA so with, for us, it's about getting everybody under this tent. Right. And, but it will never mean that we deprioritize what we started with, which is the engineering crowd. It's just an expansion >>Stay true to your roots. >>Yes. Well, Prianca, we're going to talk to a lot of those startup communities tomorrow. Ah, tomorrow's coverage. It's all about startups. Why should CTOs, uh, new startups talk to these upstarts of as opposed to some of the bigger players here on the show floor, over 170 sponsoring companies, the show floor has been vibrant engaging. Yes. And we're going to get into that community tomorrow's coverage on the cube from Valencia Spain. I'm Keith Townson, along with Paul Gillon and you're watching the cube, the leader and high tech coverage.

>>The cube presents, Coon and cloud native con Europe, 2022. Brought to you by red hat, the cloud native computing foundation and its ecosystem partners. >>Welcome to Licia Spain and cube con cloud native con 2022 Europe. I'm Keith Townsend, along with Paul Gillon senior editor, enterprise architecture for Silicon angle. We're gonna talk to some amazing folks. Day two coverage of Q con cloud native con Paul. We did the wrap up yesterday. Great. A great back and forth about what en Rico about yesterday's, uh, session. What are you looking for to today? >>I'm looking for, uh, to understand better, uh, how Kubernetes is being put into production, the types of applications that are being built on top of it. Yesterday, we talked a lot about infrastructure today. I think we're gonna talk a little bit more about applications, including with our first guest. >>Yeah, I was speaking our first guest. We have ish Degan CPO chief product officer at Hazelcast Hazelcast has been on the program before, but you, this is your first time in the queue, correct? >>It, it is Keith. Yeah. Well, >>Welcome to been Cuban. So we're talking data, which is always a fascinating topic. Containers are, have been known for not being supportive of stateful applications. At least you shouldn't hold the traditional thought. You shouldn't hold stateful data in containers. Tell me about the relationship between Hazel cast and containers we're at Cuan. >>Yeah, so a little bit about, uh, Hazelcast. We are a real time data platform and, uh, we are not a database, but a data platform because we basically allow, uh, data at rest as well as data in motion. So you can imagine that if you're writing an application, you can basically query and join a data coming in events, as well as data, which might have been persisted. So you can do both stream processing as well as, you know, low latency data access. And, and this platform of course, is supported on all the clouds. And we kind of delegate the orchestration of this kind of scale out system to Kubernetes. Um, and you know, that provides a resiliency and many things which go along with that. >>So you say you don't, you're not a database platform. What are you used for to manage the data? >>So we are, uh, we are memory first. So we are, you know, we started with low latency applications, but then we realized that real time has really become a business term. It's it's more of a business SLA mm-hmm, <affirmative>, it's really the, we see the opportunity, the punctuated change, which is happening in the market today is about real time data access to real time. I mean, there are real time applications. Our customers are building around real time offers, um, realtime thread detection. I mean, just imagine, you know, one of our customers like B and P par bars, they have, they basically originate a loan while the customer is banking. So you are in an ATM machine and you swipe your card and you are asking for, you know, taking 50 euros out. And at that point they can actually originate a custom loan offer based on your existing balance you're existing request and your credit score in that moment. So that's a value moment for them and they actually saw 400% loan origination go up because of that, because nobody's gonna be thinking about a credit, uh, line of credit after they're done banking. So it's in that value moment and we allow basically our data platform allows you to have fast access to data and also process incoming streams. So not before they get stored, but as they're coming in. >>So if I'm a developer and cuon is definitely a conference for developer and I, I come to the booth and I hear <inaudible>, that's the end value. I, I hear what I can do with my application. I guess the question is, how do I get there? I mean, uh, if it's not a database, how do I make a call from a container to, from my microservice to Hazel cath? Like, do I think of this as a, uh, a CNI or, or C CSI? How do I access >>PA care? Yeah. So, so we, uh, you know, we are, our server is actually built in Java. So a lot of the application which get written on top of the data platform are basically accessing through Java APIs. Or as you have a.net shop, you can actually use.net API. So we are basically an API first platform and SQL is basically the polyglot way of accessing data, both streaming data, as well as it store data. So most of the application developers, a lot of it is run done in microservices, and they're doing these fast get inputs for data. So they, they have a key, they want to get to a customer, they give a customer ID. And the beauty is that, um, while they're processing the events, they can actually enrich it because you need contextual information as well. So going back to the ATM example, you know, at that event happened, somebody swiped the card and ask for 50 euros, and now you want more information like credit score information, all that needs to be combined in that, in that value moment. >>So we allow you to do those joins and, you know, the contextual information is very important. So you see a lot of streaming platform out there, which just do streaming, but if you're an application developer, like you asked, you have to basically do call out to a streaming platform to get, um, to do streaming analytics and then do another call to get the context of that. You know, what is the credit score for this customer? But whereas in our case, because the data platform supports both streaming as well as data at rest, you can do that in one call and, you know, you don't want to have the operational complexity to stand out. Two different scale out servers is, is, is, is humongous, right? I mean, you want to build your business application. So, >>So you are querying data streaming data and data rest yes. In the same query >>Yes. In the same query. And we are memory first. So what happens is that we store a lot of the hot data in memory. So we have a scale out Ram based server. So that's where you get the low latency from. In fact, last year we did a benchmark. We were able to process a billion events a second, uh, with 99% of the latency under 30 milliseconds. So that kind of processing and that kind of power is, and, and the most important thing is determinism. I mean, you know, there's a lot of, um, if you look at real time, what real time is, is about this predictable latency at scale, because ultimately your, your adhering to a business SLA is not about milliseconds or microsecond. It's what your business needs. If your business needs that you need to deny or, uh, approve a credit credit card transaction in 50 milliseconds, that's your business SLA, and you need that predictability for every transaction. >>So talk to us about how how's this packaged in consumed. Cause I'm hearing a, a bunch of server Ram I'm hearing numbers that we're trying to adapt away from at this conference. We don't wanna see the onlay. We just want to use it. >>Yeah. So, so we kind of take a bit that, that complexity of managing this scale out, um, uh, uh, cluster, which actually utilizes Rams from each server. And then, you know, if you, you can configure it so that the hard set of data is in Ram, but the data, which is, you know, not so hard can actually go into a tiered storage model. So we are memory first. So, but what you are doing is you're doing simple, it's an API. So you do basically a crud, right? You create records, you read them through SQL. So for you, it's, it's, it's kind of like how you access that database. And we also provide you, you know, real time is also a journey. I mean, a lot of customers, you know, you don't want to rip their existing system and deploy another kind of scale out platform. Right? So we, we see a lot of these use cases where they have a database and we can sit in between the database, a system of record and the application. So we are kind of in between there. So that's, that's the journey you can take to real time. >>How does Kubernetes, uh, containers and Kubernetes change the game for real time analytics? >>Yeah. So, uh, Kubernetes does change it because what's hap first of all, we service most of the operational workloads. So it's, it's more on the, a lot of our customers. We have most, most of the big banks credit card companies in financial services and retail. Those are the two big sectors for us. And first of all, you know, a lot of these operational workloads are moving to the cloud and with move to the cloud, they're actually taking their existing applications and, and moving to, you know, one of the providers and to kind of orchestrate this scale out platform, which does auto scaling, that's where the benefit comes from mm-hmm <affirmative>. And it also gives them the freedom of choice. So, you know, the Kubernetes is, you know, a standard which goes across cloud providers. So that gives them the benefit that they can actually take their application. And if they want, they can actually move it to a different, a different cloud provider because we take away the orchestration complexity, you know, in that abstraction layer. >>So what happens when I need to go really fast? I mean, I, I, I need, uh, I'm looking at bare metal and I'm looking at really scaling a, a, a homogeneous application in a single data center set of data centers. Is there a bare metal play here? >>Yes. There, there, there are some very, very, uh, like if you want microsecond latency, mm-hmm, <affirmative>, um, you know, we have customers who actually store two to four terabytes in Ram and, and they can actually stand up. Um, you know, again, it depends on what kind of deployment you want. You can either scale up or scale out, scaling up is expensive, you know, because those boxes are not cheap, but if you have a requirement like that, where there is sub millisecond or microphone latency requirement, you could actually store the entire data set. I mean, a lot of the operational data sets are under four terabytes. So it's not uncommon that you could actually take the entire operational transactional data set, actually move, move that to a pure Ram. But, uh, I think now we, we also see that these operational workloads are also, there's a need for analytics to be done on top as well. >>I mean, we, going back to the example I gave you, so this, this, uh, customer is not only doing stream crossing, they're also influencing a machine learning algorithm in that same, in the same kind of cycle in the life cycle. So they might have trained a machine learning or algorithm on a data lake somewhere, but once they're ready, they're actually influencing the ML algorithm in our kind of life cycle right there. So, you know, that that really brings analytics and transactions kind of together because after all transactions are where the real, you know, insights are. >>Yeah. I'm, I'm struggling a little bit with this, with these two different use cases where I have transactional basically a transactional database or transactional data platform alongside a analytics platform. Those are two, like they're two different things. I have a, you know, I, I have spinning rust for one, and then I have memory and, and MBME for another. Uh, and that requires tuning requires DBAs. It requires a lot of overhead, there seems to be some type of secret sauce going on here. >>Yeah. Yeah. So, I mean, you know, we, we basically say that if you are, if you have a business case where you want to make a decision, you know, you, the only chance to succeed is where you are not making a decision tomorrow based on today's data. Right? I mean, the only way to act on that data is today. So the act is a keyword here. We actually let you generate a realtime offer. We, we let you do credit card fraud detection. In that moment, the analytics is about knowing less about acting on it. Right? Most of our applications are machine critical. They're acting on real time. I think when you talk about like the data lakes there, there's actually a real time there as well, but it's about knowing, and we believe that the operational side is where, you know, that value moment is there, you know, what good is, is to know about something tomorrow, you know, if something wrong happened, I mean, it, yeah, so there's a latency squeeze there as well, but we are on, on more on the kind of transaction and operational side. >>I gotcha. Yeah. So help me understand, like integrations. A lot of the, the, when I think of transactions, I'm thinking of SAP, Oracle, where the process is done, or some legacy banking or not legacy or new modern banking app, how does the data get from one platform to a, to Hazel cast so I can make those >>Decisions? Yeah. So we have, uh, this, the streaming engine, we have has a whole bunch of connectors to a lot of data sources. So in fact, most of our use cases already have data sources underneath there, their databases there's KA connectors, you know, joining us because if you look at it, events is, are comprised of transactions. So something, a customer did, uh, a credit card swipe, right. And also events events could be machine or IOT. So it's really unique connectivity and data ingestion before you can process that. So we have, uh, a whole suite of connectors to kind of bring data in, in our platform. >>We've been talking a lot, these last couple of days about, uh, about the edge and about moving processing capability closer to the edge. How do you enable that? >>Yeah. So edge is actually very, very relevant because of what's happening is that, um, you know, if you, if you look at like a edge deployment use case, um, you know, we have a use case where data is being pushed from these different edge devices to cloud data warehouse. Right. But just imagine that you want to be filtering data at the, at, at where it is being originated from, and you wanna push only relevant data to, to maybe a central data lake where you might want to do, you know, train your machine learning models. Mm-hmm <affirmative> so that at the edge, we are actually able to process that data. So Hazel cast will allow you to actually write a data pipeline and do stream processing so that you might want to just push, you know, a part or a subset of data, which applies by the rules. Uh, so there's, there's a big, um, uh, I think edge is, you know, there's a lot of data being generated and you don't want like garbage and garbage out there's there's, there is there's filtration done at the edge. So that only the relevant data lands in a data, data lake or something like that. >>Well, Monash, we really appreciate you stopping by realtime data is an exciting area of coverage for the queue overall from Valencia Spain, I'm Keith Townsend, along with Paul Gillon, and you're watching the queue, the leader in high tech coverage.

>>The cube presents, Coon and cloud native con Europe 22, brought to you by the cloud native computing foundation. >>Welcome to Valencia Spain and coverage of Q con cloud native con Europe, 2022. I'm Keith Townsend. You're a host of the cube along with Paul Gillum, senior editor, enterprise architecture for Silicon angle, ENCO, senior ready, senior it analyst for giga own. Uh, this has been a full day, 7,500 attendees. I might have seen them run out of food. This is just unexpected. I mean, they, the, it escalated from what understand it went from four, capping it off to 4,000 gold, 5,000 gold in and off. Finally at 7,500 people. I'm super excited for, you know, today's been a great day of coverage. I'm super excited for tomorrow's coverage, uh, from the cube. But first off, we'll let the, the new person on stage take the, the first question of, of the wrap up of the day of coverage, UN Rico on Rico. What's different about this year versus other Q coupons or cloud native conversations. >>I, I think in general, it's the maturity. So we talk it a lot about day two operations, uh, observability monitoring, uh, going deeper and deeper in the security aspects of the application. So this means that for many enterprises, Kubernetes is becoming real critical. They want to, to get more control of it. And of course you have the discussion around Phen op around, you know, uh, cost control because we are deploying Kubernetes everywhere. And, and if you don't have everything optimized control, monitor it, you know, uh, cost to the roof and think about, uh, deploying the public cloud. If your application is not optimized, you're paying more, but also in the on premises, if you are not optimiz, you don't have the clear idea of what is going to happen. So capacity planning become the nightmare that we know from the past. So there is a lot of going on around these topics, uh, really exciting, actually less infrastructure, more replication. That is what Kubernetes is India. >>Paul help me separate some of the signal from the noise. Uh, there is a lot going on a lot of overlap. What are some of the big themes of takeaways for day one that enterprise architects executives need to take home and really chew >>On? Well, the Kubernetes was a turning point. You know, Docker was introduced nine years ago and for the first three or four years, it was an interesting technology that was not very widely adopted. Kubernetes came along and gave developers a reason to use containers. What strikes me about this conference is that this is a developer event, you know, ordinarily you go to conferences and it's geared toward it managers towards CIOs. This is very much geared toward developers when you have the hearts and minds of developers, the rest of the industry is sort of pulled along with it. So this is ground zero for the hottest, uh, the, the hottest area of the entire computing industry. Right now, I is in this area building distributed services, BA microservices based cloud native applications. And it's the developers who are leading the way. I think that's, that's a significant shift. I don't see the managers here, the CIOs here, these are the people who are, uh, who are pulling this industry into the next generation. >>Um, one of the interesting things that I've seen when we, you know, we've always said, Kubernetes is for the developers, but we talk with, uh, an icon from, uh, MoneyGram. Who's a end user, he's an enterprise architect. And he brought Kubernetes to his front end developers and they, they, they kind of rejected it. They said, what is this? I just wanna develop cold. So when we say Kubernetes is for developers, or the developers are here, where, how do we reconcile that mismatch of experience? We have enterprise architecture. I hear constantly that, that the, uh, Kubernetes is for developers, but is it a certain kind of developer that Kubernetes is for? >>Well, yes and no. I mean, so the paradigm is changing. Okay. So, and maybe a few years back, it was tough to understand how, you know, uh, uh, make your application different. So microservices, everything was new for everybody, but actually, so everything is changed to a point. Now, the developer understands, you know, it is neural. So, you know, going through the application APIs automation, because the complexity of this application is, is huge. And you have, you know, 7 24 kind of development, uh, sort of deployment. So you have to stay always on cetera, et cetera. And actually to the point of, you know, developers, uh, you know, bringing this new generation of, uh, decision makers in India. So they are actually decision, they are adopting technology. Maybe it's a sort of shadow it at the very beginning. So they're adopting it, they're using it. And they're starting to use a lot of open source stuff. And then somebody upper in the stack, the executive says, what are, yeah, they, they discover that the technology is already in place is, uh, is a critical component. And then it's, uh, you know, uh, transformed in something enterprise, meaning, you know, paying enterprise services on top of it to be sure con uh, contract and so on. So it's a real journey. And these are, these guys are the real decision makers. Oh, they are at the base of the decision making process. At least >>Cloud native is something we're gonna learn to take for granted. You know, when you remember back, remember the fail whale in the early days of Twitter, when periodically the service would just would just, uh, um, crash from, uh, from, uh, traffic or Amazon went through the same thing. Facebook went through the same thing. We don't see that anymore because we are now learning to take cloud native for granted. We assume applications are gonna be available. They're gonna be performant. They're gonna scale. They're gonna handle anything. We throw at them that is cloud native at work. And I think we, we forget sometimes how refreshing it is to have, uh, an internet that really works for you. >>Yeah. I, I think we're much earlier in the journey. You know, we have Microsoft, uh, on the Xbox team talked about 22,000 pods running ni D some of the initial problems and pain points of, uh, around those challenges. Uh, much of my hallway track conversation has been centered around as we talk about kind of the decision makers, the platform teams. And this is what I'm getting excited to talk about in tomorrow's coverage. Who's on the ground doing this stuff. Is it developers as we are, as, as we see or hear or told, or is it what we're seeing from the Microsoft example, the MoneyGram example where central it is kind of getting it, and not only are they getting it, they're enabling developers to, to simply write code, build it. And Kubernetes is invisible. It seems like that's become the holy grill to make Kubernetes invisible cloud native invisible, and the experience is much closer to cloud. >>So I, I think that, uh, um, it's an interesting, I mean, I had a lot of conversation in the past year is that it's not that the original, you know, traditional it operations are disappearing. So it's just that, uh, traditional it operation are giving resources to these new developers. Okay. So it's a, it's a sort of walled garden. You don't see the wall, but it's a walled garden. So they are giving you resources and you use these resources like an internal cloud. So a few years back, we were talking about private cloud, the private cloud, as, you know, as a, let's say, uh, the same identical paradigm of, of the public cloud. This is not possible because there are no infinite resources or, well, whatever we, we think are infinite resources. So what you're doing today is giving these developers enough resources to think that they are unlimited and they can, uh, do automatic provisioning and do all these kind of things. So they don't think about infrastructure at all, but actually it's there. So it operation are still there providing resources to let developers be more free and agile and everything. So we are still in a, I think in an interesting time for all of it, >>Kubernetes and cloud native in general, I think are blurring the lines, traditional lines development and operations always were separate entities, obviously through with DevOps. Those two are emerging, but now we're moving. When you add in shift left testing shift, right? Testing, uh, dev SecOps, you see the developers become much more involved in the infrastructure and they want to be involved in infrastructure because that's what makes their applications perform. So this is gonna, cause I think it organizations to have, do some rethinking about what those traditional lines are, maybe break down those walls and have these teams work, work much closer together. And that should be a good thing because the people who are developing applications should also have intimate knowledge of the infrastructure they're gonna run on. >>So Paul, another recurring theme that we've heard here is the impact of funding on resources. What have you, what have your discussions been around founders and creators when it comes to sourcing talent and the impact of the markets on just their day to day? >>Well, the sourcing talent has been a huge issue for the last year. Of course, really ever since the pandemic started interesting. We, uh, one of our, our guests earlier today said that with the meltdown in the tech stock market, actually talent has become more available because people who were tied to their companies because of their, their stock options are now seeing those options are underwater. And suddenly they're not as loyal to the companies they joined. So that's certainly for the, for the startups. Uh, there are many small startups here. Um, they're seeing a bit of a windfall now from the, uh, from the tech stock, uh, bust, um, nevertheless skills are a long term problem. The us, uh, educational system is turning out about 10% of the skilled people that the industry needs every year. And no one I know, sees an end to that issue anytime soon. >>So ENGO, last question to you, let's talk about what that means to the practitioner. There's a lot of opportunity out >>There. >>200 plus sponsors I hear here I think is, or the projects is 200 plus, where are the big opportunities as a practitioner, as I'm thinking about the next thing that I'm going to learn to help me survive the next 10 or 15 years of my career? Where, where do you think the focus should be? Should it be that low level, uh, cloud builder, or should it be at those Le levels of extraction that we're seeing and reading about? >>I, I think, I think that, uh, you know, it's, uh, it's a good question. The, the answer is not that easy. I mean, uh, being a developer today, for sure grants, you, you know, uh, a salary at the end of the month, I mean, there is high demand, but actually there are a lot of other technical, uh, figures in, in the, in, uh, in the data center in the cloud that could, you know, really find easily a job today. So developers is the first in my mind also because they are more, uh, they, they can serve multiple roles. It means you can be a developer, but actually you can be also, you know, with the new roles that we have, especially now with the DevOps, you can be, uh, somebody that supports operation because, you know, automation, you know, a few other things. So you can be a C admin of the next generation, even if you're a developer, even if when you start as a developer, >>Cuan 20, 22 is exciting. I don't care if you're a developer practitioner, a investor, a, uh, it decision maker is CIO CXO. They're so much to learn and absorb here and we're going to be covering it for the next two days. Me and Paul will be shoulder to shoulder. We will, you, I'm not gonna say you're gonna get sick of this because it's just, you know, it's all great information. We'll, we'll, we'll help sort all of this from Valencia Spain. I'm Keith Townsend, along with my host ENCO senior, the Paul Gillon. And you're watching the, you, the leader in high tech coverage.