>>From around the globe. It's the cube with digital coverage of IBM. Think 20, 21 brought to you by IBM, >>Everybody welcome back to IBM. Think 2021. My name is Dave Vellante and you're watching the cubes continuous coverage of this event. We go out to the events, we extract the signal from the noise, but doing that virtually for the better part of a 14 months. Now we're going to get deeper into application modernization. Marie ASHRAE is here. She's the director of marketing at mainline information systems and David burrows. Burrows is an account executive at mainline folks. Welcome to the cube. Great to have you on today. >>Thank you. Nice to be here >>To start with with mainline. Uh, people might not be familiar with, with mainline, but you've transformed over the past five years. I wonder if you could describe that for our audience? >>Yes, we have. Indeed. We have, um, mainline, um, you know, it's a 30 plus year company and, um, and for 30 odd years we had really been focused a lot in hardware, right? Hardware reselling. That's what the market needed. That's what we did a lot of. But then in the past, I would say five to eight years, maybe even 10 years, we started on this transformation project, um, for the business where we started transforming ourselves into really systems integrators versus just hardware reseller. So now we can go to a client and we can say, Hey, now what are you struggling with? Right? What are your business challenges? And then from there, we can integrate a solution that might be hardware. It might be software, it might be some services, it could be managed services. It could be staffing services, um, could be a number of different things and put all that together and then deliver a complete solution that helps them with their, their business requirements. Okay, >>David, that, that must've been an interesting transition because what Marie just described is it used to be every opportunity was a nail and whatever box you were selling was the hammer. And, and that, that has changed dramatically. Of course. So you, you, I wonder what that discussion was like with, with, with clients. You must have heard that early on and said, Oh, this cloud thing is happening. The world is changing. We've got to change too. I wonder if you could chime in on that transformation. >>Yes. That's our, uh, as our clients have been changing, what we've been doing is, uh, you know, making sure that we fully understand what's available not only in the marketplace, but the competition and what, what each industry segment, for example, baking versus insurance versus a utility maybe facing, uh, during this this time. And so, you know, being able to transform as a, as an accounting dedicated, we've been able to, uh, indicate and so provide solutions as Marie indicated. Um, the large focus over the last five years has been networking and security as we move, uh, more compute to the edge, close to the edge. Security has been predominant. Uh, and so, you know, hardware is really almost commoditized through and through and with the exception of, you know, IBM, Z and, and power. Uh, and so, you know, we've had to really, uh, sellers, you know, focus on what customers are dealing with and how they transition. Uh, and as we, uh, you know, through COVID, it's actually been a bigger challenge, a bigger focus on security. And I think we'll talk about that a little bit later in more detail >>Let's, let's, let's do that now. So, so Marie, maybe at a high level, you could talk about those challenges that your clients are facing. And then we can sort of double click on how that was exacerbated by, by COVID. And I'm really interested in your perspectives on sort of the post isolation economy and how those challenges are going to shift, but, but maybe, maybe kick us off at the high level if you could. >>Sure. So, um, so, you know, people, companies were moving toward, um, uh, th the whole digital transformation, right? Probably for the past three to four years, we started seeing more and more that's constantly, everybody sees those buzz words all the time. Um, so clients were shifting in that direction and we were shifting to try to satisfy them with their needs with those solutions, but then came COVID and all of a sudden, right. What people were, were planning on doing for the next, let's say five years. I mean, most of the iOS were saying, yeah, we're going to get there in five years. Well, that had to happen. Right. It had to have brakes went on and it had to happen instantaneously. So that put a big change in focus, a big change in direction for not only our clients. Right. But for our own folks, folks like David, who are trying to service these clients with having to bring them these solutions that we're going to solve their digital business needs, um, today and not five years from now. >>Yeah. So David let's, let's talk about that. I mean, what Marie just described, I call it the forced March to digital, because as Maria, as you were saying, people were on a digital transformation, but there was a little bit of complacency and okay, we'll get there. We're really busy doing some other stuff. And then all of a sudden you've probably seen the meme of the COVID wrecking ball coming, coming into the building, the office building and saying, you know, well, we're doing fine. And all of a sudden, boom, the forest COVID comes in. So, so, so, so how did that affect your clients and how did you respond? I mean, they're asking for VDI and get me some laptops, I need end point security. And so how did that affect the, the application modernization efforts and David, maybe you could comment on that. >>So I, I think for, for me, the biggest challenge was all business, the competition within business to survive COVID, uh, you know, they had to put on first thing was how do we get our, our customer, uh, supported correctly and how do we get our workers supportive, working at home? So the very first thing we did over the initial six months was most companies had to transform immediately within the first 30 to 90 days to allow their workforce to work from home. Uh, that happened throughout my, my customer base, uh, both in Southern California, uh, was customers really focused on, uh, how do we business process, how do we compete in this marketplace and get return on investment speed, you know, time to value or what we invest in these, uh, COVID times so that we can compete with other, uh, businesses that are trying to stay alive, uh, through this transition. And, and now, you know, we're seeing on, uh, on the backend, uh, you know, that time, the value in terms of investment is even more important because some businesses have been significantly impacted from not only cashflow, uh, but you know, certainly in terms of profitability during this time >>Makes sense. And so I'm read, so we were talking earlier about the, sort of the initial path to digital transformation, and I wonder if that's gotta be course corrected. I would think we were forced in to compress, you know, the digital reality, uh, and, and I guess in a way that's good. Uh, but in a way it was, we probably made a lot of mistakes. It was a bit of a Petri dish. So now as we begin to knock on exit COVID, you would think those, those imperatives, uh, adjust and they start to become aligned. What's your take on that, especially as it relates to application and infrastructure modernization. >>Um, so I would agree with that. I think that there's definitely has to be a little bit of a, of a real alignment happening. And I know recently I read that, um, 20, 21 is expected to be a very, um, large year in it spend because all of those, um, initiatives that CEOs and others were going after pre COVID kind of got put on hold, right. So they could then go focus on all of those digital needs that were needed, like, you know, the CDI, you know, work at home, all the security stuff for that. So I think we're going to see, I'm thinking, we're going to see a shift again now, and maybe businesses are going to go back and try to pick up where they were, uh, prior to COVID and now start working on more of really of the application modernization, um, initiatives that were in mind. And I know we wanted to talk about that as well, because David's been working on quite a bit of application modernization with, um, a few of his clients, um, as we're seeing again, businesses change. Um, and, and I don't know that all of that changes because of COVID. I think all of that change was for their competitiveness, um, to get there anyway. So I think that's going to start, as you said before, Dave, I think it's going to start now having to >>Kind of rethink, >>It reminds me of traffic on the David, if you've ever been to driving in, in London when it's slingshots, right. It's that's what's COVID was like Murray you're absolutely right. Last year it spend was down four to 5% this year. I mean, our prediction is going to be in the six to 7% range, which, which kind of aligns with where Gartner and IDC are based on our surveys. But, you know, back in, in April, like I think the 16th of April, it was a headline in the wall street journal that the China grew 18% GDP in the quarter. So it's very hard to predict, but, but it's coming back, you know, we, we can see that David and so, so spending is really gonna accelerate. There's probably some pent-up demand for that application modernization. Maybe it's been a little bit, uh, neglected as we've done, as Maria was saying. And you were saying the work from home. So maybe you could talk a little bit more about the modernization aspects and maybe I'm really interested in the things that you guys deliver in your portfolio with IBM. >>Sure. Uh, so what I have customers in multiple phases within this, uh, current digital transformation, their customer, uh, moving everything to next gen, uh, development, which is, uh, only containerized code, uh, being able to, you know, swiftly go through their development tests, uh, and, uh, hybrid cloud environments where they're, um, they haven't made an investment yet, but they're sampling what it might be like to, uh, change into that world. And then there are customers are still in the, uh, typical environment, uh, the traditional environment, and are looking at what the solutions, as far as packages are available for them moving forward. So they can kind of skip over, uh, any kind of development and being able to, uh, leverage, uh, what I call them next, gen development or next gen systems, uh, immediately, as you know, you asked, you know, what are the, what are the systems that are available? IBM's cloud pack, uh, solution set. It provides a portfolio of capabilities, uh, both in the application, suite, database, suite security. Uh, I have customers today leveraging that. Uh, and, and so that is one of the first pieces, uh, that, that customers I see who are on the leading edge, or are also kind of trailing, are looking at, uh, these cloud packs to be able to, uh, uh, go time to market and time to value, uh, quickly. >>Yeah. So when I look at your portfolio, I just sort of scan the web. Uh, David just mentioned Marie cloud pack. I mean, we're talking software here. You guys do have a lot of expertise in ZZ Linux power, you mentioned is not a commodity. And it's one of the few pieces of hardware that, and Z they're not a commodity storage. I would think business resiliency fits in there beyond disaster recovery, your red hat, we're talking, you know, things like open OpenShift and Ansible for automation. So these are, these are not your grandfather's main line. These are toolkits are a piece of, you know, parts of the tool bag that you bring to bear to focus on on client outcomes and solutions is, am I getting that right? >>Yes, absolutely. Absolutely. Um, and again, right, that goes back to the original opening comment about how we've transformed as a business, right. To become, uh, an integrator, um, putting all of these different pieces together. I mean, I know that, um, something that, that David recently had worked on, Oh my goodness. If you would have looked at the list of pieces of elements to that solution, um, it was really quite incredible between, um, open source stuff, you know, and a bunch of IBM stuff. Um, yes, it was some storage and yeah, there was some power, um, yes, there was red hat. Right. But then there was other stuff there was VMware. Um, there was, um, some things that, um, I can't even remember now all the names to all the components, but it was, it was a laundry list. Right. And so that's where though mainline stepped in and put the pieces together, uh, for the customer so that the customer then can get done what they needed to get done, which was, which was really solve their business problem, which was trying to become more competitive in their market space. >>Okay, David, so when Maria was sustained was basically, my takeaways is as a system integrator, you've got all these piece parts with these technologies, you've got virtualization, you've got automation, you've got containers and so forth. Uh, and yes, there's there's hardware, but there's this integration that has to occur. And your job is to abstract that complexity, that underlying complexity away so that the customers can focus on the outcome. Maybe you could talk about that and how you do that. >>Sure. I'll give you a good example of a recent customer that we work with who was, uh, basically, I mean, we consider an enterprise data platform that, that, uh, was going to rework their entire data warehouse into something that had governance surrounding it, uh, where they could validate all the data that was coming into their warehouse. And so we underpinned that, uh, with an infrastructure of power, uh, we're running, uh, obviously IBM, uh, uh, pack for data, uh, with DB two warehouse. Uh, we use a combination of that with, uh, Cloudera data flow through IBM, uh, with the streaming and, uh, the governance, uh, IBM governance catalog piece, which is, uh, lots of knowledge catalog. So, uh, we've been able to take not only what their base requirements were, but all the microservices that are packaged in with cloud pack, uh, all running on OpenShift, uh, which was a great acquisition that IBM did last year. And, uh, then, uh, they also required other microservices outside, uh, to support that environment and paint a picture for >>Us as to what the future looks like. Uh, it's, it's much different than the past 30 years, uh, and bring us home please >>Or so, um, I think the future for us is to continue to, um, to find all of the solutions, um, that will, that will help our customers, um, you know, get to their next steps. Right. And, and there's a lot, as you know, there's lots of solutions out there. There's lots of new companies that are popping up all the time. Um, you know, inherently, you know, mainline is an IBM partner. We've been an IBM partner for 30 plus years since our inception. And that's the base of our business is, is IBM. But, but there are other requirements that are needed by, by businesses, by our customers. And that's where we, we reach out and partner up. We probably have gone my goodness, 200 plus partnerships with various companies, various technology companies that we can then, um, lean on and pull in those ancillary solutions, um, to, to, to complete that, that solution for the customer. >>So I think we're going to continue going down that path. We're going to continue making sure that we're partnered with the, um, the, the leading technology companies. So we can build that IBM solution for our customer and, and bolt on the other pieces that are needed. Uh, we're going to continue to grow and enhance our services business because we've got quite a large services business, whether it's implementation services, uh, we do managed services. We have staffing services. I think you're going to see if we're still going to continue to, to grow that business, because that is a piece where companies, you know, they don't want to worry about running all of that stuff, right. They want to know that their system's going to be running 24 seven. And if there is a bump or a burp or something happens, Hey, they could pick up the phone, they can call mainline. We can help them get things corrected. So I think we're going to still see a lot of that going on as well, um, within our, our, our offerings. >>Excellent. Well, congratulations for making it through that. Not a whole lot, not, not every, uh, hardware seller reseller made it through and you guys transformed. It's a, it's an inspiring story. Maria, David, thanks so much for coming on the cube. Thank you. Thank you very much. You're really welcome. And thank you for watching everybody. This is Dave Volante in our continuous coverage and the cube of IBM think 20, 21. Keep it right there.

>> From around the globe, it's the cube, with digital coverage of IBM think 2021 brought to you by IBM. >> Hi everybody, Welcome back to IBM Think 2021. My name is Dave Vellante and you're watching the cubes continuous coverage of this event. We go out to the events, we extract the signal from the noise but doing that virtually for the better part of a 14 months now, we're going to get deeper into application modernization. Marie Ashway is here. She's the director of marketing at Mainline Information Systems and David burrows. Burrows is an account executive at Mainline folks. Welcome to the cube, great to have you on today. >> Thank you. Nice to be here. >> Marie, I want to start with, with Mainline. A lot of people might not be familiar with Mainline but you've transformed over the past five years. I wonder if you could describe that for our audience? >> Yes, we have, indeed we have, Mainline, you know is a 30 plus year company and, and for 30 odd years we had really been focused a lot in hardware, right? Hardware reselling. That's what the market needed. That's what we did a lot of. But then in the past I would say five to eight years, maybe even 10 years we started on this transformation project for the business where we started transforming ourselves into really systems integrators versus just hardware reseller. So now we can go to a client and we can say, Hey now what are you struggling with? Right? What are your business challenges? And then from there we can integrate a solution that might be hardware. It might be software, it might be some services it could be managed services. It could be staffing services could be a number of different things and put all that together and then deliver a complete solution that helps them with their, their business requirements. >> Well, David, that that must've been an interesting transition because what Marie just described as it used to be every opportunity was a nail and whatever box you were selling was the hammer. And that, that has changed dramatically. Of course. So you, you, I wonder what that discussion was like with, with, with clients. You must have heard that early on and said, Uh-Oh this cloud thing is happening. The world is changing. We've got to change too. I wonder if you could chime in on that transformation. >> Yes. That's our, as our clients have been changing what we've been doing is, you know, making sure that we fully understand what's available, not only in the marketplace, but the competition. What, what each industry segment, for example, banking versus insurance versus a utility maybe facing during this this time. And so, you know, being able to transform as a as an accounting dedicated, we've been able to indicate. And so provide solutions as Marie indicated, the large focus over the last five years has been networking and security. As we move more compute to the edge, close to the edge security has been predominant. And so, you know, hardware is really almost commoditized through and through and with the exception of, you know IBM, Z and, and power. And so, you know, we've had to really sellers, you know focus on what customers are dealing with and how they transition. And as we, you know, through COVID, it's actually been a bigger challenge, a bigger focus on security. And I think we'll talk about that a little bit later in more detail >> Let's, let's, let's do that now. So, so Marie, maybe at a high level, you could talk about those challenges that your clients are facing. And then we can sort of double click on how that was exacerbated by, by COVID. And I'm really interested in your perspectives on sort of the post isolation economy and how those challenges are going to shift, but, but maybe maybe kick us off at the high level if you could. >> Sure. So, so, you know, people, companies were moving toward the the whole digital transformation, right? Probably for the past three to four years we started seeing more and more that constantly everybody sees those buzzwords all the time. So clients were shifting in that direction and we were shifting to try to satisfy them with their needs with those solutions but then came COVID and all of a sudden, right. What people were, were planning on doing for the next, let's say five years. I mean, most of the CEO's were saying, yeah we're going to get there in five years. Well, that had to happen. Right. It had to have brakes went on and it had to happen instantaneously. So that put a big change in focus a big change in direction for not only our clients. Right. But for our own folks, folks like David who are trying to service these clients with having to bring them these solutions that we're going to solve their digital business needs today and not five years from now. >> Yeah. So David let's, let's talk about that. I mean, what Marie just described I call it the forced march to digital, because as Marie as you were saying, people were on a digital transformation but there was a little bit of complacency and okay, we'll get there. We're really busy doing some other stuff. And then all of a sudden you've probably seen the meme of the COVID wrecking ball coming, coming into the building the office building and saying, you know, you know, well we're doing fine and all of a sudden, boom the forced COVID comes in. So, so, so so how did that affect your clients and how did you respond? I mean, they're asking for VDI and get me some laptops, I need end point security. And so how did that affect the the application modernization efforts and David maybe you could comment on that. >> So I, I think for, for me, the biggest challenge was all business, the competition within business to survive COVID, you know, they had to put on first thing was how do we get our, our customer supported correctly? And how do we get our workers supported working at home? So the very first thing we did over the initial six months was most companies had to transform immediately within the first 30 to 90 days to allow their workforce to work from home. That happened throughout my, my customer base, both in Southern California, was customers really focused on how do we do business process? How do we compete in this marketplace and get return on investment speed, you know, time to value or what we invest in these COVID times so that we can compete with other businesses that are trying to stay alive through this transition. And, and now, you know, we're seeing on the, on the back end you know, that time, the value in terms of investment is even more important because some businesses have been significantly impacted from knowing cashflow, but you know, certainly in terms of profitability during this time. >> Makes sense. And so, Marie, so we were talking earlier about the sort of the initial path to digital transformation. And I wonder if that's got to be course corrected. I would think we were forced in to compress, you know the digital reality and, and I guess in a way that's good but in a way it was, we probably made a lot of mistakes. It was a bit of a Petri dish. So now as we begin to ,knock on, exit COVID you would think those those imperatives adjust and they start to become aligned. What's your take on that, especially as it relates to application and infrastructure modernization. >> So I would agree with that. I think that there's definitely has to be a little bit of a of a realignment happening. And I know recently I read that 2021 is expected to be a very large year in IT spend because all of those initiatives that CEOs and others were going after pre COVID kind of got put on hold, right. So they could then go focus on all of those digital means that were needed. Like, you know, the CDI, you know, work at home all the security stuff for that. So I think we're going to see, I'm thinking, we're going to see a shift again now, and maybe businesses are going to go back and try to pick up where they were prior to COVID and now start working on more of really of the application modernization initiatives that were in mind. And I know we wanted to talk about that as well because David's been working on quite a bit of application modernization with a few of his clients as we're seeing again, businesses change. And, and I don't know that all of that changes because of COVID. I think all of that change was for their competitiveness, to get there anyway. So I think that's going to start, as you said before, David I think it's going to start now having to kind of rethink up >> It reminds me of traffic on the M four David have you ever been to driving in in London when it's slingshots? Right? It's that's what's COVID was like Marie, you're absolutely right. Last year IT spend was down 4 to 5% this year. I mean, our prediction is it's going to be in the 6 to 7% range, which, which, which kind of aligns with where Gartner and IDC are based on our surveys. But, you know, back in, in April like I think the 16th of April it was a headline of wall street journal that the China grew 18% GDP in the quarter. So it's very hard to predict, but, but it's coming back you know, we can see that David and so so spending is really going to accelerate. There's probably some pent-up demand for that application modernization. Maybe it's been a little bit neglected as we've done as Maria was saying. And you were saying that work from home. So maybe you could talk a little bit more about the modernization aspects and maybe I'm really interested in the things that you guys deliver in your portfolio with IBM. >> Sure. So what I have customers in multiple phases within this current digital transformation there are customers moving everything to the next gen development which is a fully containerized code. Being able to, you know swiftly go through their development tests and hybrid cloud environments where they're they haven't made an investment yet but they're sampling what it might be like to change into that world. And then there are customers are still in the typical environment, the traditional environment and are looking at what the solutions as far as packages are available for them moving forward. So they can kind of skip over any kind of development and being able to leverage what I call next gen development or next gen systems immediately as you know, you ask, you know, what are the what are the systems that are available? IBM's cloud pack solution set. It provides a portfolio of capabilities both in the application suite, database suite, security. I have customers today leveraging that. And, and so that is one of the first pieces that that customers I see who are on the leading edge or are also kind of trailing, are looking at these cloud bags to be able to go time to market and time to value quickly. >> Yeah. So when I look at your portfolio I just sort of scan the web. David just mentioned Marie, cloud pack. I mean, we're talking software here. You guys do have a lot of expertise in Z, Z Linux, Power. You mentioned is not a commodity. And it's one of the few pieces of hardware that and Z they're not a commodity. Storage, I would think business resiliency fits in there beyond disaster recovery. You Red Hat, we're talking, you know, things like open open shift and Ansible for automation. So these are, these are not your grandfather's main line. These are toolkits are a piece of, you know, parts of the tool bag that you bring to bear to focus on on client outcomes and solutions is am I getting that right? >> Yes, absolutely. Absolutely. And again, right, that goes back to the original opening comment about how we've transformed as a business, right. To become an integrator putting all of these different pieces together. I mean, I know that something that that David recently had worked on, Oh my goodness. If you would have looked at the list of pieces of elements to that solution, it was really quite incredible between open source stuff, you know and a bunch of IBM stuff. Yes. It was some storage and yeah, there was some power. Yes. There was Red Hat. Right. But then there was other stuff, there was VMware there was some things that I can't even remember now all the names to all the components, but it was it was a laundry list. Right. And so that's where though Mainline stepped in and put the pieces together for the customer so that the customer then can get done what they needed to get done, which was which was really solve their business problem which was trying to become more competitive in their market space. >> Okay, David, so when Marie was just staying was basically my takeaway is, is this a system integrator? You've got all these piece parts with these technologies you've got virtualization, you've got automation you've got containers and so forth. And yes, there's there's hardware but there's this integration that has to occur. And your job is to abstract that complexity that underlying complexity away so that the customers can focus on the outcome. Maybe you could talk about that and how you do that. >> Sure. I'll, I'll give you a good example of a recent customer that we work with, who was basically implying, we consider an enterprise data platform that, that was going to rework their entire data warehouse into something that had governance surrounding it where they could validate all the data that was coming into their warehouse. And so we underpinned that with an infrastructure of power. We're running, obviously IBM pack for data with DB two warehouse. We use a combination of that with five-year data flow through IBM with the streaming and the governance IBM governance catalog piece, which is lots of knowledge catalog. So we've been able to take not only what their base requirements were, but all the microservices that are packaged in with cloud pack, all running on open shift which was a great acquisition that IBM did last year. And then they also required other microservices outside to support that environment >> Paint a picture for us as to what the future looks like. It's, it's much different than the past 30 years and bring us home, please. >> Sure. So I think the future for us is to continue to to find all of the solutions that will that will help our customers, you know get to their next steps. Right. And, and there's a lot, as you know did this lots of solutions out there. There's lots of new companies that are popping up all the time. You know, inherently, you know, Mainline is an IBM partner. We've been an IBM partner for 30 plus years since our inception. And that's the base of our business is, is IBM. But, but there are other requirements that are needed by by businesses, by our customers. And that's where we, we reach out and partner up. We probably have gone my goodness 200 plus partnerships with various companies various technology companies that we can then lean on and pull in those ancillary solutions to, to to complete that, that solution for the customer. So I think we're going to continue going down that path. We're going to continue making sure that we're partnered with the, the, the leading technology companies. So we can build that IBM solution for our customer and and bolt on the other pieces that are needed. We're going to continue to grow and enhance our services business because we've got quite a large services business whether it's implementation services, we do manage services we have staffing services. I think you're going to see we're still going to continue to, to grow that business because that is a piece where companies, you know they don't want to worry about running all of that stuff, right. They want to know that their system's going to be running 24 seven. And if there is a bump or a burp or something happens, Hey they could pick up the phone, they can call Mainline. We can help them get things corrected. So I think we're going to still see a lot of that going on as well within our, our, our offerings. >> Excellent. Well, congratulations for making it through that. Not a whole lot, not not every hardware seller reseller made it through and you guys transformed. It's a, it's an inspiring story. Marie, David, thanks so much for coming on the cube. >> Thank you. >> Thank you very much. >> You're really welcome. And thank you for watching everybody. This is Dave Volante in our continuous coverage and the cube of IBM think 2021. Keep it right there.

(techno music) >> From Cambridge, Massachusetts, it's theCUBE. Covering MIT Chief Data Officer and Information Quality Symposium 2019, brought to you by SiliconANGLE Media. >> Welcome back to MIT CDOIQ. The CDO Information Quality Conference. You're watching theCUBE, the leader in live tech coverage. My name is Dave Vellante. I'm here with my co-host, Paul Gillin. This is our day two of our two day coverage. Jean Ross is here. She's the principle research scientist at MIT CISR, Jean good to see you again. >> Nice to be here! >> Welcome back. Okay, what do all these acronyms stand for, I forget. MIT CISR. >> CISR which we pronounce scissor, is the Center for Information Systems Research. It's a research center that's been at MIT since 1974, studying how big companies use technology effectively. >> So and, what's your role as a research scientist? >> As a research scientist, I work with both researchers and with company leaders to understand what's going on out there, and try to present some simple succinct ideas about how companies can generate greater value from information technology. >> Well, I guess not much has changed in information technology since 1974. (laughing) So let's fast forward to the big, hot trend, digital transformation, digital business. What's the difference between a business and a digital business? >> Right now, you're hoping there's no difference for you and your business. >> (chuckling) Yeah, for sure. >> The main thing about a digital business is it's being inspired by technology. So in the past, we would establish a strategy, and then we would check out technology and say, okay, how can technology make us more effective with that strategy? Today, and this has been driven a lot by start-ups, we have to stop and say, well wait a minute, what is technology making possible? Because if we're not thinking about it, there sure are a lot of students at MIT who are, and we're going to miss the boat. We're going to get Ubered if you will, somebody's going to think of a value proposition that we should be offering and aren't, and we'll be left in the dust. So, our digital businesses are those that are recognizing the opportunities that digital technologies make possible. >> Now, and what about data? In terms of the role of digital business, it seems like that's an underpinning of a digital business. Is it not? >> Yeah, the single biggest capability that digital technologies provide, is ubiquitous data that's readily accessible anytime. So when we think about being inspired by technology, we could reframe that as inspired by the availability of ubiquitous data that's readily accessible. >> Your premise about the difference between digitization and digital business is interesting. It's more than just a sematic debate. Do companies now, when companies talk about digital transformation these days, in fact, are most of them of thinking of digitization rather than really transformative business change? >> Yeah, this is so interesting to me. In 2006, we wrote a book that said, you need to become more agile, and you need to rely on information technology to get you there. And these are basic things like SAP and salesforce.com and things like that. Just making sure that your core processes are disciplined and reliable and predictable. We said this in 2006. What we didn't know is that we were explaining digitization, which is very effective use of technology in your underlying process. Today, when somebody says to me, we're going digital, I'm thinking about the new value propositions, the implications of the data, right? And they're often actually saying they're finally doing what we thought they should do in 2006. The problem is, in 2006, we said get going on this, it's a long journey. This could take you six, 10 years to accomplish. And then we gave examples of companies that took six to 10 years. LEGO, and USAA and really great companies. And now, companies are going, "Ah, you know, we really ought to do that". They don't have six to 10 years. They get this done now, or they're in trouble, and it's still a really big deal. >> So how realistic is it? I mean, you've got big established companies that have got all these information silos, as we've been hearing for the last two days, just pulling their information together, knowing what they've got is a huge challenge for them. Meanwhile, you're competing with born on the web, digitally native start-ups that don't have any of that legacy, is it really feasible for these companies to reinvent themselves in the way you're talking about? Or should they just be buying the companies that have already done it? >> Well good luck with buying, because what happens is that when a company starts up, they can do anything, but they can't do it to scale. So most of these start-ups are going to have to sell themselves because they don't know anything about scale. And the problem is, the companies that want to buy them up know about the scale of big global companies but they don't know how to do this seamlessly because they didn't do the basic digitization. They relied on basically, a lot of heroes in their company to pull of the scale. So now they have to rely more on technology than they did in the past, but they still have a leg up if you will, on the start-up that doesn't want to worry about the discipline of scaling up a good idea. They'd rather just go off and have another good idea, right? They're perpetual entrepreneurs if you will. So if we look at the start-ups, they're not really your concern. Your concern is the very well run company, that's been around, knows how to be inspired by technology and now says, "Oh I see what you're capable of doing, "or should be capable of doing. "I think I'll move into your space". So this, the Amazon's, and the USAA's and the LEGO's who say "We're good at what we do, "and we could be doing more". We're watching Schneider Electric, Phillips's, Ferovial. These are big ole companies who get digital, and they are going to start moving into a lot of people's territory. >> So let's take the example of those incumbents that you've used as examples of companies that are leaning into digital, and presumably doing a good job of it, they've got a lot of legacy debt, as you know people call it technical debt. The question I have is how they're using machine intelligence. So if you think about Facebook, Amazon, Microsoft, Google, they own horizontal technologies around machine intelligence. The incumbents that you mentioned, do not. Now do they close the gap? They're not going to build their own A.I. They're going to buy it, and then apply it. It's how they apply it that's going to be the difference. So do you agree with that premise, and where are they getting it, do they have the skill sets to do it, how are they closing that gap? >> They're definitely partnering. When you say they're not going to build any of it, that's actually not quite true. They're going to build a lot around the edges. They'll rely on partners like Microsoft and Google to provide some of the core, >> Yes, right. >> But they are bringing in their own experts to take it to the, basically to the customer level. How do I take, let me just take Schneider Electric for an example. They have gone from being an electrical equipment manufacturer, to a purveyor of energy management solutions. It's quite a different value proposition. To do that, they need a lot of intelligence. Some of it is data analytics of old, and some of it is just better representation on dashboards and things like that. But there is a layer of intelligence that is new, and it is absolutely essential to them by relying on partners and their own expertise in what they do for customers, and then co-creating a fair amount with customers, they can do things that other companies cannot. >> And they're developing a software presumably, a SAS revenue stream as part of that, right? >> Yeah, absolutely. >> How about the innovators dilemma though, the problem that these companies often have grown up, they're very big, they're very profitable, they see disruption coming, but they are unable to make the change, their shareholders won't let them make the change, they know what they have to do, but they're simply not able to do it, and then they become paralyzed. Is there a -- I mean, looking at some of the companies you just mentioned, how did they get over that mindset? >> This is real leadership from CEO's, who basically explain to their boards and to their investors, this is our future, we are... we're either going this direction or we're going down. And they sell it. It's brilliant salesmanship, and it's why when we go out to study great companies, we don't have that many to choose from. I mean, they are hard to find, right? So you are at such a competitive advantage right now. If you understand, if your own internal processes are cleaned up and you know how to rely on the E.R.P's and the C.R.M's, to get that done, and on the other hand, you're using the intelligence to provide value propositions, that new technologies and data make possible, that is an incredibly powerful combination, but you have to invest. You have to convince your boards and your investors that it's a good idea, you have to change your talent internally, and the biggest surprise is, you have to convince your customers that they want something from you that they never wanted before. So you got a lot of work to do to pull this off. >> Right now, in today's economy, the economy is sort of lifting all boats. But as we saw when the .com implosion happened in 2001, often these breakdown gives birth to great, new companies. Do you see that the next recession, which is inevitably coming, will be sort of the turning point for some of these companies that can't change? >> It's a really good question. I do expect that there are going to be companies that don't make it. And I think that they will fail at different rates based on their, not just the economy, but their industry, and what competitors do, and things like that. But I do think we're going to see some companies fail. We're going to see many other companies understand that they are too complex. They are simply too complex. They cannot do things end to end and seamlessly and present a great customer experience, because they're doing everything. So we're going to see some pretty dramatic changes, we're going to see failure, it's a fair assumption that when we see the economy crash, it's also going to contribute, but that's, it's not the whole story. >> But when the .com blew up, you had the internet guys that actually had a business model to make money, and the guys that didn't, the guys that didn't went away, and then you also had the incumbents that embrace the internet, so when we came out of that .com downturn, you had the survivors, who was Google and eBay, and obviously Amazon, and then you had incumbent companies who had online retailing, and e-tailing and e-commerce etc, who thrived. I would suspect you're going to see something similar, but I wonder what you guys think. The street today is rewarding growth. And we got another near record high today after the rate cut yesterday. And so, but companies that aren't making money are getting rewarded, 'cause they're growing. Well when the recession comes, those guys are going to get crushed. >> Right. >> Yeah. >> And you're going to have these other companies emerge, and you'll see the winners, are going to be those ones who have truly digitized, not just talking the talk, or transformed really, to use your definition. That's what I would expect. I don't know, what do you think about that? >> I totally agree. And, I mean, we look at industries like retail, and they have been fundamentally transformed. There's still lots of opportunities for innovation, and we're going to see some winners that have kind of struggled early but not given up, and they're kind of finding their footing. But we're losing some. We're losing a lot, right? I think the surprise is that we thought digital was going to replace what we did. We'd stop going to stores, we'd stop reading books, we wouldn't have newspapers anymore. And it hasn't done that. Its only added, it hasn't taken anything away. >> It could-- >> I don't think the newspaper industry has been unscathed by digital. >> No, nor has retail. >> Nor has retail, right. >> No, no no, not unscathed, but here's the big challenge. Is if I could substitute, If I could move from newspaper to online, I'm fine. You don't get to do that. You add online to what you've got, right? And I think this right now is the big challenge. Is that nothing's gone away, at least yet. So we have to sustain the business we are, so that it can feed the business we want to be. And we have to make that transition into new capabilities. I would argue that established companies need to become very binary, that there are people that do nothing but sustain and make better and better and better, who they are. While others, are creating the new reality. You see this in auto companies by the way. They're creating not just the autonomous automobiles, but the mobility services, the whole new value propositions, that will become a bigger and bigger part of their revenue stream, but right now are tiny. >> So, here's the scary thing to me. And again, I'd love to hear your thoughts on this. And I've been an outspoken critic of Liz Warren's attack on big tech. >> Absolutely. >> I just think if they're breaking the law, and they're really acting like monopolies, the D.O.J and F.T.C should do something, but to me, you don't just break up big tech because they're good capitalists. Having said that, one of the things that scares me is, when you see Apple getting into payment systems, Amazon getting into grocery and logistics. Digital allows you to do something that's never happened before which is, you can traverse industries. >> Yep. >> Yeah, absolutely >> You used to have this stack of industries, and if you were in that industry, you're stuck in healthcare, you're stuck in financial services or whatever it was. And today, digital allows you to traverse those. >> It absolutely does. And so in theory, Amazon and Apple and Facebook and Google, they can attack virtually any industry and they kind of are. >> Yeah they kind are. I would certainly not break up anything. I would really look hard though at acquisitions, because I think that's where some of this is coming from. They can stop the overwhelming growth, but I do think you're right. That you get these opportunities from digital that are just so much easier because they're basically sharing information and technology, not building buildings and equipment and all that kind of thing. But I think there all limits to all this. I do not fear these companies. I think there, we need some law, we need some regulations, they're fine. They are adding a lot of value and the great companies, I mean, you look at the Schneider's and the Phillips, yeah they fear what some of them can do, but they're looking forward to what they provide underneath. >> Doesn't Cloud change the equation here? I mean, when you think of something like Amazon getting into the payments business, or Google in the payments business, you know it used to be that the creating of global payments processing network, just going global was a huge barrier to entry. Now, you don't have nearly that same level of impediment right? I mean the cloud eliminates much of the traditional barrier. >> Yeah, but I'll tell you what limits it, is complexity. Every company we've studied gets a little over anxious and becomes too complex, and they cannot run themselves effectively anymore. It happens to everyone. I mean, remember when we were terrified about what Microsoft was going to become? But then it got competition because it's trying to do so many things, and somebody else is offering, Sales Force and others, something simpler. And this will happen to every company that gets overly ambitious. Something simpler will come along, and everybody will go "Oh thank goodness". Something simpler. >> Well with Microsoft, I would argue two things. One is the D.O.J put some handcuffs on them , and two, with Steve Ballmer, I wouldn't get his nose out of Windows, and then finally stuck on a (mumbles) (laughter) >> Well it's they had a platform shift. >> Well this is exactly it. They will make those kind of calls . >> Sure, and I think that talks to their legacy, that they won't end up like Digital Equipment Corp or Wang and D.G, who just ignored the future and held onto the past. But I think, a colleague of ours, David Moschella wrote a book, it's called "Seeing Digital". And his premise was we're moving from a world of remote cloud services, to one where you have to, to use your word, ubiquitous digital services that you can access upon which you can build your business and new business models. I mean, the simplest example is Waves, you mentioned Uber. They're using Cloud, they're using OAuth.in with Google, Facebook or LinkedIn and they've got a security layer, there's an A.I layer, there's all your BlockChain, mobile, cognitive, it's all these sets of services that are now ubiquitous on which you're building, so you're leveraging, he calls it the matrix, to the extent that these companies that you're studying, these incumbents can leverage that matrix, they should be fine. >> Yes. >> The part of the problem is, they say "No, we're going to invent everything ourselves, we're going to build it all ourselves". To use Andy Jassy's term, it's non-differentiated heavy lifting, slows them down, but there's no reason why they can't tap that matrix, >> Absolutely >> And take advantage of it. Where I do get scared is, the Facebooks, Apples, Googles, Amazons, they're matrix companies, their data is at their core, and they get this. It's not like they're putting data around the core, data is the core. So your thoughts on that? I mean, it looks like your slide about disruption, it's coming. >> Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. >> No industry is safe. >> Yeah, well I'll go back to the complexity argument. We studied complexity at length, and complexity is a killer. And as we get too ambitious, and we're constantly looking for growth, we start doing things that create more and more tensions in our various lines of business, causes to create silos, that then we have to coordinate. I just think every single company that, no cloud is going to save us from this. It, complexity will kill us. And we have to keep reminding ourselves to limit that complexity, and we've just not seen the example of the company that got that right. Sooner or later, they just kind of chop them, you know, create problems for themselves. >> Well isn't that inherent though in growth? >> Absolutely! >> It's just like, big companies slow down. >> That's right. >> They can't make decisions as quickly. >> That's right. >> I haven't seen a big company yet that moves nimbly. >> Exactly, and that's the complexity thing-- >> Well wait a minute, what about AWS? They're a 40 billion dollar company. >> Oh yeah, yeah, yeah >> They're like the agile gorilla. >> Yeah, yeah, yeah. >> I mean, I think they're breaking the rule, and my argument would be, because they have data at their core, and they've got that, its a bromide, but that common data model, that they can apply now to virtually any business. You know, we're been expecting, a lot of people have been expecting that growth to attenuate. I mean it hasn't yet, we'll see. But they're like a 40 billion dollar firm-- >> No that's a good example yeah. >> So we'll see. And Microsoft, is the other one. Microsoft is demonstrating double digit growth. For such a large company, it's astounding. I wonder, if the law of large numbers is being challenged, so. >> Yeah, well it's interesting. I do think that what now constitutes "so big" that you're really going to struggle with the complexity. I think that has definitely been elevated a lot. But I still think there will be a point at which human beings can't handle-- >> They're getting away. >> Whatever level of complexity we reach, yeah. >> Well sure, right because even though this great new, it's your point. Cloud technology, you know, there's going to be something better that comes along. Even, I think Jassy might have said, If we had to do it all over again, we would have built the whole thing on lambda functions >> Yeah. >> Oh, yeah. >> Not on, you know so there you go. >> So maybe someone else does that-- >> Yeah, there you go. >> So now they've got their hybrid. >> Yeah, yeah. >> Yeah, absolutely. >> You know maybe it'll take another ten years, but well Jean, thanks so much for coming to theCUBE, >> it was great to have you. >> My pleasure! >> Appreciate you coming back. >> Really fun to talk. >> All right, keep right there everybody, Paul Gillin and Dave Villante, we'll be right back from MIT CDOIQ, you're watching theCUBE. (chuckles) (techno music)

>> Announcer: Live from Miami Beach, Florida, it's theCUBE covering VeeamON 2019. Brought to you by Veeam. >> Welcome back to Miami everybody. This is Dave Volante with Peter Burris and you're watching theCUBE, the leader in live tech coverage. We go out to the events, we extract the signal from the noise, and we're here at VeeamON 2019 in Miami at the Fontainebleau Hotel. Raj Perumal is here. He's the CIO of Ducks Unlimited, Canada-based wetland and waterfowl conservation. Great to have you on theCUBE, thanks. >> Thank you. >> The keynote yesterday was awesome. You guys were talking about some of things that you're doing. We're going to get into that. You made a great statement. You said "the wetlands are the kidneys of the world." >> Raj: Yes. >> You know, explain that. >> (laughs) Sure, so, most people are very familiar with the Amazon rain forest, right? When you think about saving the planet and saving the environment, that's where everyone's mind or eyes go to, right? Well, wetlands are Mother Nature's way of essentially filtering water, stopping overland flooding, and so on. So, that's why we say they are the kidneys of the earth. >> Yeah, and so talk a little bit about the trends in the earth. It's been very challenging, right? I mean despite the great work that you're doing, you're still fighting this battle which sometimes might feel unwinnable. But give us the data, yeah. >> Absolutely, urban expansion, right? At the end of the day, you know as humans we're going across the planet. We're constantly building more cities, more parking lots, more everything, right? So wetlands are getting replaced with various things. Same thing with various resource mining, et cetera. Wetlands go away. So what Ducks Unlimited likes to do is adopt a no net loss policy. So what we do is we work closely with governments in various provinces across Canada. So if someone destroys an acre of wetlands, we can try and restore maybe four or ten acres for every one destroyed. It's better not to destroy it in the first place, but if it's going to happen, restore it somewhere else. >> Dave: So, some of the stats I saw. You've done 12,000 projects since you started this in the 1930's. 163.5 million acres that you have preserved. And as I say, still the wetlands loss is enormous. Is it not regulated to the point where public policy can help? >> Raj: Well, there's policy and there's law. And when it comes to Canada, there's policy but there's always exceptions. So what ends up happening is, you have these policies that say you can't do this, but then there's exception, exception, exception, exception. And usually corporations can get a way through some various exception and actually get through. Ducks Unlimited helped pass a law in Quebec not too long ago, so we actually have it in law in Quebec where it is actually being supported. >> So, the old adage that if you can't measure it, it doesn't get done. >> That's right. >> One of the most amazing things about some of these digital transformations is satellite imagery, other types of weather and related data, are making it possible to track typology in unbelievable minute detail. >> Absolutely. >> Peter: Now that's got to help you, but at the same time, it's got to really dramatically require a greater focal point on things like data protection. Especially since operational time series for wetlands is not measured in nanoseconds. It's measured in years. >> That's right. >> So you got to be able to use this technology to both enhance your mission right now, but also be able to show over time how things are changing. Have I got that right? >> That's absolutely correct. With climate change as an example, and yes, that's a real thing. With climate change, you're measuring, We want to keep data like over 30 years. And that's where we actually see true change. We're just talking about five, ten years. That's just weather, that's not climate change, right? So we need to keep that data. So yes, we have a whole GIS department, Geographical Information Systems, where we have satellite imagery, drone imagery of Canada, going years and years and years back. We have to keep all of that data and we can never get rid of it. >> So what does this mission have to do with Veeam? >> Sure, absolutely. So with all of that data, GIS data is very imagery intense. So think of it like x-rays or CAD. So it takes up a lot of space. So we have to back up that data. Every map has layers and layers and layers, so it's almost like a Google Maps for the environment. You can think of it that way. We run something called the Canadian Wetland Inventory. It's the largest inventory of wetlands, mapping of wetlands, in Canada. And we leave that as open data, so anyone can access the data and use it. So we use Veeam to back all of that up, and also to maintain our disaster recovery and so on for all our different operations. That's just one aspect of our operations, another big part, and you talked about the 12,000 projects we were doing. We started a division called conservation technology which is all about using technology to monitor the wetlands. So putting internet of things sensors out in the wetlands, gathering that data automatically through satellite and cellular networks, analyzing it with artificial intelligence and machine learning. Once we have that, we can get those insights, give them to our scientists or PhDs where the big minds can go and crunch that and go and look at it and go, okay, this is what's happening in the world. We need to back that data up too. And once again, going back to what I said before, we need to keep that data over long periods of time so we can actually see patterns and figure out what's going on with our planet. >> Do you do video on the ground as well? I mean, you're right Peter. With satellite imagery, you can get pretty minute detail. But then, like the ground truth, sometimes you got to go on the ground. . Are you capturing video on the ground? >> A little bit, not a lot. >> Dave: The changes in flora and fauna? Do you see that as useful in the future? Or is it just too much data or not as useful to sort of deploy those kind of cameras? >> I would love to be able to capture all of that data real-time. The problem with that is in Canada, our internet infrastructure is quite poor in the rural areas. In some places, you have better-than-dial-up speeds. That's it. So unfortunately, we can't bring that data back. So a lot of the times, we can't capture the video. But where we can, we do. >> Dave: Okay, but so you are putting sensors there and so talk more about that data. What are you doing with that data? Does that come back into a cloud? Yes, so we pull that into the cloud, Microsoft Azure, where we analyze it and do that AI and machine learning, and then spit it out from there. So we are in the hybrid cloud. So we have some stuff internally, some in the public cloud. A little mixture of everything. That's where Veeam comes into play. >> So I had a couple questions. One is on the data source side and one is on the data sync side, starting with the data sync. Certainly, climate scientists and others, folks who are looking at geopolitics and other types of things, are taking this kind of information and they're using it as a source for even more complex and advanced applications. Are you seeing communities evolve and emerge and evolve in response to the availability of your data? >> Absolutely, people are clamoring for more though. Everyone wants real-time data. A lot of our data is manually gathered at this point. We have people driving out to a specific project in the middle of nowhere, gathering the data manually, driving back and then uploading it because that's the only way we can do it. So, absolutely, we are seeing people wanting more use of it and making use of that data, but they want it live. They want it right now. We kind of live in an instant-on society, right? But once again, the challenges of rural areas kind of tie our hands. >> Well that was my second question. Do you see an opportunity to do crowdsourcing of video or other types of information? >> Absolutely. >> So is that becoming a way and are you using artificial intelligence? Start taking an extended number of data sources as people go out and take pictures of ducks, or whatever else it is, and then ingesting that into your system. Does that become part of the flow? >> Yeah, absolutely, so that kind of takes us back to the 1930's when Ducks first started. We had the key men of old that actually kind of stewarded their local areas for conservation. So, absolutely, we can use crowdsourcing in this day and age, and it's something we want to explore. We're not doing it yet, but we're getting there. >> How is your data pipeline? 1930's, you know the data, the data model in 1930's is a lot different than it is today. The keynote speaker today talked about the sort of bending of the innovation curve and how the next 20, 30, 40, 50 years we're going to see more change than we've ever seen before. We'll see. But the data model that you guys are doing, I mean at least in the last 10 years you've seen new technologies come out, new processes. How are you evolving that data model? >> It's more like data models. (laughs) For the various line of business because we do so many different things, right? But essentially what we're trying to do-- >> The big thing is keeping it all connected. Keeping it all in sync. Implementing things like master data management. We're a big partner with Dell Boomi for example. So we leverage them to move our data back and forth between all our systems, et cetera, while Veeam backs it up. So I would say it's hugely important to be continually pushing the envelope and how you move data and how you synchronize data, how you authenticate that data and how you verify that data. Especially in science, you want to make sure that it's not being tampered with. You got to make sure that the data is consistent and true. >> Raj, how long have you been in this role? >> At Ducks Unlimited? A little over two years, but in the industry, over 25. >> So Veeam at Ducks preceded you, is that right? >> No, I brought it in. >> Dave: So you brought it in? Talk about that. Why did you bring it in and what was going on before? Maybe tell us a before and after. >> Sure, absolutely. So I actually used to be on the reseller side of the business. I used to be a CIO for one of the larger IT consulting companies in Canada. And during my time there, I brought Veeam into the province of Manitoba and spent a lot of time with various different customers, putting Veeam into various different projects and company types. So lots of exposure to the product. So when I came into Ducks Unlimited Canada, I already came in knowing what was possible, and gave the existing backup product a shot because I didn't necessarily want to rip and replace everything on my team with the CIO coming in day one. >> Dave: New sheriff in town! Ugh, who's this guy? >> But when it wasn't doing exactly what I needed it to do, we decided to bring Veeam in and the rest is basically history. >> Talk more about that. What was the business impact of bringing-- >> Oh sure, absolutely, so before Veeam, we were spending over 40 hours a week just administering backups. >> Peter: 40 hours a week? >> Yeah, easily. And we have large data sets, and so as I was talking about in the keynote, with those large data sets, if you're doing a backup or a restore, especially a restore, if it fails, you can blow a day trying to get that data back. And so you've lost a day. So that's how you easily end up losing that much time. Especially with an organization where you have 27 locations across Canada, and 500 staff, and 4,500 volunteers all accessing this data in some way, shape, or form. So by moving to Veeam, all those tasks that we used to do before, just worked. Veeam always says "it just works." It's true. And so what ended up happening is stuff that was taking the team a week, all of a sudden was taking them minutes. Like literally minutes. And it's unbelievable. That FT, that full-time equivalent staff member all of a sudden becomes freed up to do the work I was talking about in conservation technology and other areas of our business. We're directly impacting science on the planet, so a lot more fun that just supporting regular IT. >> So you have that 40 hours, was arms and legs of the team? And how large was the team? >> 16. >> So six, zero? >> Raj: 16. >> 16! Okay, so it was 16, pieces of 16. Which a lot of times, people hear that and they're like oh, it's going to reduce jobs. I don't want to talk about that. But these guys must have hated that. That job, the 40 hours-- >> Absolutely, they're doing mund-numbing work, right? >> Dave: It's interruptive and-- >> Yeah, and so now they're doing a lot funner stuff, right? >> What funner stuff are they doing? >> Absolutely, so once again being involved directly with conservation technology and our IOT play and all of that AI and machine learning research. All the sexy stuff in IT that's happening now, right? So they're very happy. >> You guys got a pretty interesting IOT use case. So how, I'm curious as to, you know we've been watching various companies come in and announce their grand IOT strategies and say "Okay we're going to bring this box to the edge." What are your thoughts on IOT, the edge, all those sort of buzz words. How do you look at it from a practitioner and a customer standpoint? >> It's very much like building a mobile app. So, you know everyone says we need an app for their company, right? They don't know why they need an app. They just say they need an app. And then they go and build that app and then nothing happens with it, right? And then it all fails. IOT is much the same way. Internet of things, AI, machine learning, it's all the buzz words. But then you need to understand what you want to get out of it in the first place. Like where are you trying to go? What are you trying to do? What are you trying to accomplish? And then if IOT fits that, AI, machine learning, if that fits that, then great. And if it doesn't, then don't waste your time. That's my thought. >> So, specifically, what's your IOT strategy? What can you accomplish with edge? >> Absolutely, if we can get instant live data streaming into the cloud and actively analyzing it on the fly using cloud services like Azure, AI, machine learning IOT et cetera, or even Amazon services, a lot of different services out there. If we can do that on the fly and feed that into the Canadian Wetland Inventory that I was talking about before, using open data initiatives, we can now feed data to the planet about what's happening real-time to academia, to governments, et cetera, so they can make decisions with evidentiary-based statistics, right? Right now it's very hard for, this is why the fight over climate change, people go "There is such a thing." Other people go, "No there isn't", and this happens because there's not enough data available to the general public, right? So by having this open data and making it available to the general public, not just the scientific communities, I think that would go a long way to helping get support for these causes. >> That's awesome, changing the world. What are the skill sets you need to achieve that vision? Is it data science-heavy? Can you sort of outsource some of that? Is the tooling simplified enough now? Talk about that. >> It's a little bit of networking, little bit of data science, a lot of GIS, and a lot of old fashioned networking and talking to people, right? So that's really what makes up the team and allows us to do what we do. >> Are you hiring data scientists? >> Not at the moment, no. We have everyone we need. >> But you have data scientists on staff. >> Yes, exactly. Because even before the IOT thing, we have scientists on staff that do just that, right? It's just in the traditional sense, before that. >> So did you sort of create that role? Take somebody who's good in math and computers and stats and say "Hey, you're the data scientist now. Go do some training and make it happen." Or did you actually hire in a data scientist? >> We actually created that role, so we have numerous people that feed different aspects of that, but the main man that's actually running that for me is our right hand man and your manager of IT. He started as a biologist that became a GIS guy that became my manager of IT. So he has a little bit of experience in all these different areas and he's like the perfect person to run the conservation technology division for us. >> Cool. >> And he's here today. >> Oh really? So what do you think of VeeamOn? Have you been to previous Veeam shows? >> Yeah, most of them actually. >> Dave: Really? >> It's great, yeah. >> Oh, that's awesome, seeing the CIO crowd hang out with all us backup wonks. So, thoughts from the show, takeaways? >> Sure, absolutely. Well, first of all, if anyone isn't using Veeam, they should be using it already. I got to say that right now. So many people waste their time picking and choosing and hemming and hawing. Just use it, it just works. So please do that. You won't regret it whatsoever. Veeam has done some really great things. I love the announcements with Orchestrator in version 2 there, and some of the good things that are coming with the restore plans and the scopes, et cetera. And that's fantastic. So I think there's a lot of great things that Veeam is bringing to data management and data availability. >> Yeah, so they made a big deal out of being able to do restores from the backup corpus. Not having to go to a replicated chunk of data. Why is that important for you, and will you take advantage of that? >> It's just the speed. It's just the speed, so I don't have to bring it back from another place, right? It's just instant. >> Yeah, okay, so then you're going to use that other place for disaster recovery or just a second copy for just in case? >> Yup! >> But you've got basically a local copy that you can bring back instantaneously. Okay, great. And I presume that supports your sort of compressed RTO and RPO. Which, as long as I've been in this business, they've shrunk and shrunk and shrunk. >> Yup, that's right. >> Shrunk the RPO. Great, okay, I'll give you final words. Cool stuff you're working on, things you'd like to see our industry do better, you pick it. >> Sure, cool stuff we're working on. So, talking about what we're doing at Ducks Unlimited with IT and really kind of changing the shape of IT and how it's involved in science, and I talked about Wetland Inventory, that live data, et cetera. If we can build a model like that here, imagine what we can do across the world, right? I'd love to take that model and take it to other countries where they can do the same type of work, so altruistically, and share that data, that whole open data initiative, so other people can go and save wetlands. If we can get everyone working together that way, I think we'll all be better off. >> That's awesome, Raj, thank you so much for coming to theCUBE, sharing your insights and experiences. Appreciate it. All right, keep it right there buddy. We'll be back with our next guest. This is theCUBE live from VeeamON 2019 from Miami. We'll be right back.

>> Live, from Las Vegas. It's theCUBE, covering Adobe Summit 2019. Brought to you by Adobe. >> Hey welcome back everyone, this is CUBE's live coverage at Adobe Summit here in Las Vegas. I'm John Furrier, host of theCUBE with Jeff Frick, co-host for the next two days' live coverage. Our next guest is Amber Hameed, vice-president of Information Systems at the Dollar Shave Club. Welcome to theCUBE, thanks for coming on. >> It's great to be here. >> So I love your title, we were talking about it before the camera came on. It's not, it's Information Systems. Why is that different, tell us, what about the title. >> I think, everything from a technology point of view, there's no such thing as a purest anymore. I think it's really important to understand every aspect of the business as a technologist, to really evolve with the technology itself. I think, from a role that I play at Dollar Shave Club, I have the fortune of actually working very closely with all aspects of our business, From marketing, to fintech, to data, to technology, which is what our IT function is, is essentially embedded and ingrained within the entire holistic approach to technology. So it's not isolated anymore. And when we look at technologists, we actually look at how they actually interface with all of the aspects of business processes first. That's how we actually understand what the needs of the business are, to then cater the innovation and the technology to it. >> So is there a VP of IT, Information Technology? 'Cause IT is kind of a word that people think of the data center or cloud or buying equipment. It's a different role right, I mean that's not you. >> It is, if you look at the Information Systems evolution, you will see that, more and more systems are geared towards business needs, and less and less towards pure-play technology. So back in the day, you had a CTO role in an organization, which was focused on infrastructure, networks, technology, as DevOps is considered to be. Information Systems is actually focused more on the business itself, how do we enable marketing, how do we enable finance, how do we enable digital technology as a platform. But not so much as how do we develop a technology platform, that's part and parcel of what the business solution proposes, that drives how the technology operates. >> So what's old is new is coming back, Jeff, remember MIS, Management Information Systems? >> You don't want to remember this John. (laughing) >> Data Processing Systems Department. But if you think about it, we're doing Management Information Systems and we're processing a lot of data, kind of just differently, it's all with cloud now, so it's kind of important. >> That's exactly right. So technology's one aspect of bringing information together. So data is one aspect of it, business processes is another aspect of it and your resources, the way your teams are structured, are part and parcel of the strategy of any technology platform. >> Right, well what you're involved in, the topic of this show, is really not using that to so much support the business, but to be the business. And to take it to another level, to actually not support the product, but support the experience of the customer with your brand that happens to be built around some products, some of which are used for Shaving. So it's a really different way and I would imagine, except for actually holding the products in their hands, 99% of the customer engagement with your Dollar Shave Club is electronic. >> Well I mean our customer experience is a very, very unique combination within Dollar Shave Club. And that makes it even more challenging as a technologist to be able to cater, and bring that experience to what we call our members. So when we talk about a 360-degree approach from a technology platform point of view, we're taking into account, the interaction with the customer from the time we identify them, who they are, who are segmented market is, to the time they actually interact with us in any capacity, whether that's looking at our content, whether it's coming to our site, whether it's looking at our app, and then actually how we service them once we acquire them. So there's a big focus, an arm of our customer strategy, that's focused on the customer experience itself, once they are acquired, once they become part of the club. And it's that small community experience, that we want to give them, that's integral to our brand. >> You guys have all the elements of what the CEO of Adobe said on stage, we move from an old software model we're too slow, now we're fast, new generation of users, reimagining the product experience. You guys did that, that was an innovation. How do you keep that innovation going because you're a direct-to-consumer, but you got a club and a member model, you've got to constantly be raising the bar on capabilities and value to your members. What's the secret sauce how do you guys do that? >> It's exactly right. So as I mentioned it's an evolving challenge, we have to keep our business very, very agile obviously, 'cause our time to market is essential. How quickly the consumers actually change their minds, you know, so we have to target them, we have to be effective in that targeting. And how quickly do we actually deliver personalized content to them, that they can relate to, is integral to it. When we look at our our technology stack, we consider ourselves to be, you know, a cut above the others because we want to be on the bleeding edge of technology stack no matter what we do. We have an event-driven architecture. We invested quite a bit in our data infrastructure. I happen to be overseeing our data systems platform, and when I started with the organization, that was our central focus. In fact, before we invested in Adobe as a stack, which is helping us tremendously and drive some of the 360-degree view of customer centralization, we actually built our entire data architecture first, in order to make the Adobe products a success. And it was that architecture and platform, that then enabled a very successful implementation of Adobe Audience Manager going forward. >> How do you do that, because this is one of the things, that keeps coming up on the themes of every event we cover, all the different conversations with experts, people are trying to crack the code on the data architecture. I've heard people say it's a moving train, it's really hard. It is hard, how did you guys pull it off? Did you take kind of a slow approach? Was it targeted, was there a methodology to it? Can you explain? >> Yeah, so essentially, you know, as you can imagine, being a consumer driven organization, we have data coming out from all aspects. From all of our applications what we call first party data. We also have what we call second party data, which is essentially with our external marketers, information that we are using. They're using our information to channel, and we're using all of that channeled information back in, to then use that and make other strategic decisions. It was really, really important for us, to set up an architecture that is the core foundation of any sort of a data organization that you want to set. The other big challenge is the resources, as you can imagine this is a very competitive environment for data resources, so how do you keep them interested, how do you bring them to your brand, to work on your data architecture, is to make sure that you're providing them, with them latest and greatest opportunities, to take advantage of. So we're actually a big data organization, we run heavily on an AWS stack. We have bleeding edge technology stacks, that actually resources are interested in getting their their hands into, and learning and building on their skill sets. So when you take that ingredient in, the biggest driver is once you have that architecture set up, how do you get your organization, to be as a data-driven organization? And that is when you start, to start the adoption process slowly. You start delivering the insights, you start bringing your business along and explaining what those insights look like. >> I'm just curious, what are some of the KPIs that you guys take a look at, that probably a traditional marketer that graduated from P&G, thirty years ago, you know, wasn't really thinking about, that are really fundamentally different than just simply sales, and revenue, and profitability, and some of those things. >> Well I mean, I don't think there's a magic bullet, but I think they're things, that are key drivers in our business, obviously, because we're a subscription model, we are an industry disruptor there, and we started out by really looking at what the value is, that we can bring to our customers. So when we put them on a subscription model, it was very important for us to look at, how much we're spending in the acquisition, of that customer so our CPA and what we call the Golden Rule, and then how are we delivering on those. And the key KPI there is the LTV the longevity, which is the lifetime value of a customer. So we're very proud to have a pretty substantiated customer base, these members they've been with us for over six years. And the way we keep them interested, is refreshing all of that information that we're providing to them, in a very personalized way. >> How much do you think in terms of the information that they consume to stay engaged with the company, is the actual, what percentage of the value, you know, is the actual razor blade, or the actual product and the use of that versus, all the kind of ancillary material, the content, the being part of a club, and there's other things. I would imagine it's a much higher percentage on the ladder, than most people think. >> Exactly right, so our members are, we get this feedback constantly. I mean once they get into, usually a large customer base, we have over three million subscribers of our mail magazine, which is independent content delivery, from our site. And when people come and read the magazine, they automatically, they don't know at first, that it's part of the Dollar Shave Club umbrella. But once they get interested and they find out that it is, they automatically are attracted to the site and they land on it, so that's one arm that essentially targets through original content. The other aspect of it is, once you are a member, every shipment that you receive, actually has an original content insert in it. So the idea is that when you're in the bathroom, you're enjoying your products, you're also enjoying something that refreshes, keeps your mind, just as healthy as your body. >> So original content's critical to your strategy? >> It is, yes. >> On engagement and then getting that data. So I got to ask you a question, this is really an earned media kind of conversation, in that it used the parlance of the industry. Earning that trust is hard, and I see people changing their strategies from the old way of thinking of communities, forum software, login be locked in to me being more open. Communities' a hard nut to crack these days. You got to earn it, you know, you can't buy community. How is the community equation changing? You guys are doing it really, well what's the formula, obviously content's one piece. How would you share, how someone should set up their community strategy? >> Well I think it's also a lot of personal interaction. You know, we have club pros, that are exclusively dedicated to our members, and meeting our member needs. And it's world-class customer service. And from a technology point of view we have to make sure that our club pros understand our customers holistically. They understand how they've previously interacted with us. They understand what they like. We also do member surveys and profile reviews, with our members on a regular basis. We do what we call social scraping, so we understand what they're talking about, when they're talking about in social media, about our brand. And all of that is part of the technology stack. So we gather all this information, synthesize it, and provide it to our club pros. So when a member calls in, that information needs to be available to them, to interact properly and adequately. >> So it's intimacy involved, I can get an alignment. >> Absolutely yeah, it's hard core customer service, like right information, at the right time, in the right hands of our club pros. >> So he's a trick question for you, share a best practice in the industry. >> I think the idea of best practices, is sort of kind of on its way out. I think it's what we call evolving practices. I think that the cornerstone of every team, every culture, every company, is how you're learning constantly from the experiences, that you're having with your customers. And you bring a notion and it quickly goes out the door, based on feedback that you've received from your customers, or an interaction you've had. So you have to constantly keep on evolving on what are true and tested best practices. >> And that begs a question then that, if there's best practices used to be a term, like boiler plate, standards, when you have personalization, that's at the micro targeted level, personalization, that's the best practice, but it's not a practice it's unique to everybody. >> That's true and I think it's sort of, kind of a standing ground, it's a foundation. It gives you somewhere to start, but I think it would be you'd be hard-pressed, to say that that, is going to be the continuation of your experience. I think it's going to change and evolve drastically, especially in a world that we live in, which is highly digitized. Customer experiences and their attention span is so limited, that you cannot give them stale best practices, you have to keep changing. >> So the other really key piece is the subscription piece. A, it's cool that it's a club right, it's not just a subscription you're part of the club, but subscriptions are such a powerful tool, to force you to continue to think about value, continue to deliver value, to continue to innovate, because you're taking money every month and there's an there's an option for them to opt out every month. I wonder, how hard is that, to kind of get into people's heads that have not worked in that way, you know, I've worked in a product, we ship a new product once a year, we send it out, you know, okay we're working on the next PRD and MRD. Versus, you guys are almost more like a video game. Let's talk about video games, because a competitor will come out with a feature, suddenly, tomorrow and you're like, ah stop everything. Now we need to, you know, we need to feature match that. So it's a very different kind of development cycle as you said, you've got to move. >> Yeah exactly right. So there's different things that we deliver with every interaction with our customers. So one of the key ingredients is, is obviously we have an evolving brand and the content, a physical product of our brand. We recently launched groundskeeper, which is our deodorant brand, and essentially we want to make sure, that the idea is that, our consumers never actually have to leave their house. So the idea is to provide cheaper products, right, that a good quality, effective and they are delivered to your door. The idea of convenience is never outdated, never goes out of practice. But to your point, it's important to continue to listen to what your customers are asking for. So if they're asking, if they're bald, you don't want to continue to market Boogie's products, which is our hair care product to them. But if they're shaving their heads we want to, you know, evolve on our razors to be able to give them that flexibility so they have a holistic approach. >> Get that data flywheel going, see if the feedback loop coming in, lot of touch points. I got to ask the question around your success in innovation, which is awesome, congratulations. >> Thank you. >> There are a lot of people out there trying to get to kind of where you're at, maybe at the beginning of their journey, let's just say you have an innovative marketer out there or an IT, I mean a Information Systems person who says, we have a lot of members but we don't have a membership. We have a network, we have people, we're different content, we're great at original content. They have the piece parts, but now everything's not pulled together. What's your advice to that person watching, because you start to see people start to develop original content as an earned media strategy, they have open network effective content flowing. They might have members, do they do a membership? What's the playbook? >> Well I think the concept at the base of it all is, how do we, we need to stay very true to our mission. And I think that's the focal point, that sort of brings everything together. We never diverge too far away from that, is for men to really be able to take care of their minds and their bodies. So the area where we focus in on a lot, is that we can't just bombard you, with products, after products, after products. We have to be able to cater to your needs specifically. So when we're listening in to people and what they're talking about in their own personal grooming, personal care needs, we're also going out there and finding information and content to constantly allow them, to hear in on what their questions are all about. What their needs are on a daily basis. How do men interact with grooming products in general, when they go into a retail brick-and-mortar environment, versus when they are online. So all of that is the core ingredient that when we are actually positioning our technology around it. When it comes to innovation, my personal approach to innovation is, the people that are working for you in your organization, whether they're marketers, whether they're technologists, it's very, very important to keep them intrigued. So I personally have introduced what we call an innovation plan. And what that does, is as part of our roadmap delivery for technology, I allow my team members to think about, what they would want to do in the next phase of what they want to to deliver, outside of what they do everyday as their main job. That gets their creativity going and it adds a lot of value to the brand itself. >> And it's great for retention, 'cause innovative people want to solve hard problems, they want to work with other innovative people. So you got to kind of keep that going, you know, so the company wins. >> Exactly, and the company is very approachable when it comes to lunch-and-learn opportunities and essentially learning days. So you keep your resources, and your team's really, really invigorated and working on core things, that are important to the business. >> Amber, thank you so much for coming on, and sharing these amazing insights. >> Thank you, I appreciate it. >> I'll give you the final word, just a final parting word. Share an experience of something, that you've learned over your journey, as VP of Information. Something that you, maybe some scar tissue, something that was a bump in the road, that, a failure that you overcame and you grew from. >> I think as is as a female technologist, I think I would say, and I would encourage most women out there is that it's really important to focus on your personal brand. It's really important to understand what you stand for, what your message is and one of the things that I have learned is that takes a village, it takes a community of people, to really help you grow and really staying strong and connected to your resources, whether they are working with you directly, whether they're reporting to you, you learn constantly from them. And just to be open and approachable, and be able to be open to learning, and then evolving as you grow. >> Amber thank you for sharing. >> Great advice. >> Thank you so much. >> It's theCUBE live coverage here in Las Vegas, for Adobe Summit 2019. I'm John Furrier with Jeff Frick, stay with us. After this short break we'll be right back. (upbeat music)

>> Announcer: Live from Las Vegas, its theCUBE, covering Veritas Vision 2017. Brought to you by Veritas. >> Welcome back the the Aria in Las Vegas, everybody. This is theCUBE, the leader in live tech coverage. My name is Dave Vellante, I'm here with Stu Miniman. Angelo Sciascia is here, big Tom Brady fan, Senior Vice President of NetX Information Systems, from Brooklyn, New York, I don't think so. >> Not a Tom Brady fan. >> Thanks for coming on theCUBE do you think it matters, how much it airs at a football. >> No, not at all, Tom Brady doesn't care about that. >> No, well, listen, thanks for coming on. We have a great conversation, we love talking sports on the Cube. So welcome, how's the show going for you? >> Ah, it's fantastic, you know, lots of great material Veritas has been talking about. 360 Data Management, obviously we all know the benefits of that by now. So we have a lot of customers here so I'm glad they they got to see it from a senior leadership perspective, rather than our sales guys and sales engineers going in there and talking to them, and seeing Veritas executives really getting behind what we're talking about. So it backs up our story and, you know, our customers are pretty excited about it, actually. >> What's the nature of your relationship with Veritas. I know you have a relationship, and maybe still do, with Symantec. How's that all, how did it all evolve? >> Yeah, so we are a Veritas Platinum Partner, we would be, what we consider, a solution-provider type partner. A lot of our business today is either directly or indirectly tied to Veritas, which was kind of funny because we started as a security company, so our roots are systems management, you know. That's where we were in 2005 when I joined NetX, that's where we were for many, many years after Symantec acquired a company called Altiris. We just stayed in that vein, you know, managing endpoints, securing endpoints, encrypting data. And then, somewhere in 2013, we said hey, you know, let's try to diversify the portfolio a little bit. And we used to manufacture an endpoint management appliance for Altiris so we said hey, Symantec's got these things called NetBackup Appliances, let's check it out. It's a formed fact that we know how to sell and, shoot, four years later it's been a great partnership for us, great partnership, I'm sure, for Veritas, and for our customers and that's a lot of our business today. >> So, I mean, it's hot market, you know. Data protection is exploding, and security. I mean, you're in two of the sweet spots in the market right now. So how do you approach the business with customers? Do you, are you a specialist around data protection? You deliver services around them. Maybe you can explain it on the model? >> Yeah, you know, that's actually a good question, because it's evolved quite a bit, right? So, you know, when you had a limited portfolio of just one or two products that you can sell to a customer, you're really doing a product sale, right, which, I would say that was probably the most difficult transition from the split from Symantec to Veritas, because at Symantec we had thousands of products in the portfolio, or hundreds of products in the portfolio that we could actually talk to. And for a little while, really we had a handful, you know, we had NetBackup Appliances, Enterprise Vault and ancillary things to bulk on to that, like Clearwell. I think one of the most exciting things for us, as a reseller, is to now be able to go have a discussion with our customers that we were never able to have before. And rather than sit there and try to sell them a backup product or a storage solution, we could sell them a platform that solves many problems for them, right? Rather than sitting there and trying to sell one-off. So, our conversations are significantly more strategic now then they've ever been, and frankly I speak for myself and my whole team, I know everyone enjoys the conversation more now that we have a portfolio to talk about, than just a handful of products. >> Angelo, you've got an interesting viewpoint on this split off of Aritas from Symantec. What have your customers said about it? What's been your interaction with the organization? What can you tell us about kind of the inside going on? >> Yeah, look, I've lived firsthand on a Symantec acquisition of a company, okay. I was, we were not a Symantec partner when they acquired Veritas. Funny enough, I was actually doing Veritas consulting, you know, on my own on the side prior to Symantec purchasing Veritas. So I really, I'd made my career on two products; Veritas for backup and Altiris for systems management. Symantec bought Veritas and I was like okay, you know, I'm just going to stay with Altiris. Symantec bought Altiris and here we are now, so we can talk about all of them. The thing I noticed was Symantec was always going to be a security company, right, and they weren't going to change that no matter how much they try to integrate it. It's two radically different stories. You know, and for many, many years, things that we look at as new products today were kind of already there in the Symantec portfolio, but buried underneath other products that really never saw the light of day because when you have hundreds or thousands of products, like I said earlier, you know, the ones that are going to move the most are the ones that are going to get the attention. So I think the benefit of the split is that it really allowed Veritas to focus on what they do well, which is managing data, and Symantec to do what they do well, which is securing your infrastructure and securing your data. From my perspective, our customers really appreciated that. Sure, a couple of them were a little annoyed that they had to now split contracts and deal with that kind of stuff, but I think that was a momentary blip and for the most part, it's been well-received from everyone we've spoken to. >> Angelo, you said you're having, your conversations are evolving. Who are you talking to? And maybe take us inside some of those conversations. What are the big challenges they're having? >> Yeah, a year ago, a year and a half ago I was talking to either somebody who was on the messaging side and needed to archive emails or IMs, or on the backup side and they just wanted to be able to meet their backup windows and maybe to get some better d dub rates, right. Fun conversation to have, bit mundane. It's not really solving problems as much as backing up data or archiving data. Today, we're having overarching conversations at a C-level, or a senior VP level, or a director level, and talking about dramatic changes to the way they do business, and how we can do business with them. Six months ago, NetX, we weren't doing anything in the Cloud, you know. We were selling to some customers' Vdub space to the Cloud, and that's about it. We weren't talking Cloud strategy with them. Today we're talking to our customers about moving workloads to the Cloud, doing it in a way that's predictable for them, and doing it with Veritas. >> That's a really interesting point. I have to imagine that changed who you're talking with inside the company. Can you walk us through kind of a typical customer's, you know, and how you kind of move up into a more strategic discussion for Cloud strategy? >> You know, so for full transparency, that whole thing's still evolving, right. 360 Data Management is still fairly new. So what we're seeing, the conversations turned, it would start, again we're talking to somebody that we've been talking to historically in the backup side or architecture side, and we talk to them about wanting to do better things than what their backup is, and start to talk about, hey this is what 360 Data Management is. What's relevant to that person he's going to want to talk about but then there's going to be things in there that are not relevant to him. So he'll make that introduction and he'll get other stakeholders in the boat with him. And that's something we've really appreciated because the people you used to talk to are now bringing in stakeholders to offset their own desires and their own budgets, so want to bring in other technology. And typically, when we get to that point when we're starting to talk about strategic pricing, is when you're getting that C-level person to really have that aha moment, and say wow, we're offsetting costs here, we're doing things like truly getting rid of tape, or moving to the Cloud and things like that, and it's a conversation that really evolves and it's still starts at the bottom. But we're figuring out ways to start it at a higher point. >> Well, those strategies are still evolving for most customers; the roles of those people that might have had one role definitely are changing. I'm curious, one of the big transition points, especially for a company like Veritas, is going from licenses to some kind of more of a subscription model. Any commentary you have on your customers; their embrace, or like, dislike of some of those transitions? >> I think the one thing the Cloud has done is it's opened up a different avenue of how people consume IT, right. Cloud is very much consumption-based billing, and while that can complicate our lives from a reseller perspective in terms of how to collect and track monthly billing and things like that, they like it because they feel like, and it's the truth, they're only paying for what they're truly using, rather than paying for products or infrastructure that they're only using part of the day, or software that they're only using for a particular project. A lot of our healthcare systems might have a research project that their going on, and they might like to scale up for some backup licensing and scale back down once that project is done. Consumption licensing allows that, versus having to go to them and saying, hey, well now you got to buy 200 terabytes of perpetual licensing, and justify that capital expense, rather than having an operational expense on just that one particular workload that you have to back up for that one period of time. >> Angelo, Stu and I are always interested in the human capital management aspects of things, and you talked about, you went from sort of talking about having a conversation around email archiving or backup, to one about the Cloud, Cloud strategies. From your internal organization perspective, how did you manage that? Are you rescaling, are you retraining? Is it just you got really supersmart people that can adapt? >> We definitely have supersmart people, because they're all over there, that's right. But I definitely have supersmart people. But, you know, it's a little bit of both. It's a little bit of, you know, you take one of our data protection projects; see Christian Muma, you know, he's been in the data center for god knows how many years, he has seen technology evolve. It was a natural fit to look at Cloud infrastructure. Started taking some classes, consumed it, all the information he could, and now we're out there actively selling it. In some other respects, we had to hire from outside and bring in some services ourselves to actually use, maybe some third party partnerships to help us better understand how we price out Cloud for our customers. So it's a little bit of everything, and I think that that's what's exciting about it, because I think for the first time in a long time, everyone's learning something new at the same time, because, I don't care what anyone said about the Cloud years ago; it's different today, it's going to be different in six months, it's going to be different in nine months. And I think that that's exciting, and I've been in this industry since 1996. I've seen a lot of really cool things come and go. I just think that there's still infancy in the Cloud and I think it's exciting because everyone's still learning. And any time you can still learn, I think that's, I think an important part of your job. >> So when you think about your, sort of, near-term and midterm and long-term plan for the company, how do you sort of describe that? Where do you want to take this thing? >> Near-term, I want to have a solid end of the quarter. >> Business is good, right, I mean market's booming right now. >> Business is very good. Veritas will tell me it's not good enough but they're just never happy. No, business is, business is very good. I think, near-term for us, you said hey, how do we get our head around it? Near-term for us is, as we're absorbing all this information, is start to really figure out what our path is going to be. So near-term, I think we still have to identify other ancillary partners that we need to bring to the table. We've got our partnerships with Azure, Microsoft Azure, and our partnerships with AWS. We'll probably have to look at Google and IBM and see what they're doing, and then we have to look at other partnerships that are not related to Veritas but still drive that home. We maybe look at a different colo partnership or partnerships around outsourcing billing, things like that, that we can make where it's easier for our customers to consume the technology. So I think six to nine months from now if we were to have the same conversation, everything that we're doing today is probably going to be somewhat different. But I just think that there's still a lot of planning to do. >> Angelo, any feedback from your customers on what there's still on the to-do list from the vendors? We talked, you know, the strategy, Cloud's changing a lot, you know. What are some of the pinpoints that they said hey, if we could get this into the offering from Veritas or some of the others it would make our lives a lot easier. >> I mean, that's a tough question, because we're going to them now and changing the conversation already. You know, obviously they're always asking for different features, but I don't like to get into a feature conversation with the customers. I try to solve the problem. >> Dave: You're leading that conversation, is what you're saying. >> Yeah, I don't want to get into the weeds of talking about well, this widget does it at 50% and you do it at 48%. You know, I try to sit a little bit more macro. I think that one of the things our customers have asked us to do a better job at is figure out better ways to make it easier to consume the technology from budget perspective. So we're trying to figure that out now; 360 Data Management is a subscription, Veritas would like them sold in three years, we're trying to figure out ways to get creative with our customers on that. What's the right bundle, what's not the right bundle. One thing that I've noticed, and Veritas have been great at it, is we have to have some flexibility in terms of adding things in and make it seem like it's all part of that bundle. There's been some flexibility and I think that, because of that, we haven't hit that roadblock yet where, well, we really want this product in the bundle. Reality is that we'll work through that and try to add it in there, some way, shape or form, even if behind the scenes. >> The customers see you as the experts, and what we often see is that technology is the technology; it's pretty much understood. What's not understood by the customers is how to apply it to their business, and their business is changing so fast that it seems like they're looking to organizations like yours saying okay, here's our business challenge. How can you help me? You tell me, and then the best answer is somebody he'll be able to work with. Is that a valid, sort of, premise? >> Yeah, it is, it certainly is and I think we're really uniquely positioned in the fact that, here we've got, we've got our partnership with Veritas and we're 100% focused to everything in the Veritas portfolio so we don't compete from within. That's the same thing that we could say, basically, on Symantec and some of our traditional storage partners as well. That'll change most likely, on our storage partners, especially because of what Veritas have been releasing with Access and some of the other software providing storage technology. When we're brought in, we're brought in as the experts in that finite area, so we're not brought in as a generalist-type of reseller. We're brought in as, hey, I've got a data management problem, I've got a data security problem, or I'm trying to do some high-performance workloads on storage. So yeah, we are the experts, but at the same time we're being brought in for those handfuls of things, so we're not having these, hey, can you maximize my span on anti-virus software because I want to sell you commoditized software. It's just not us, it's not our thing. We're not adding any value to the customers, or the poor owners for that matter. >> Angelo, curious that there's a lot of startups in the data protection space. What do you here, your customers asking you about them? You know, what's your thoughts there? >> I guess I got to be nice, right? Because I'm being streamed everywhere. >> Stu: They're not listening, go ahead, be a New Yorker. >> Listen, I challenge Rubrik at any point of time, you know, those guys, Rubrik, Cohesity, those guys, they're new, they're the shiny new toy. The problem, the problem is they have their messaging out there, and the problem we have is that they're the shiny new toy. But when the rubber hits the road and when it's time to actually go and prove out what the technology can do, we'll win all the time. We will win ten out of ten times if we get the seat at the table, right. The problem is is because we were a limited portfolio, a limited product, limited integration type of company before, we weren't getting that seat at the table. I think they see it now, I think they're starting to get a little concerned about, hey, you know what, if this 360 Data Management is what it's going to be, and we all know it is, I think they're going to be concerned. They're new, and they're going to get attention. My honest opinion: I'm glad they came out, I'm glad that Rubrik and Cohesity and all these guys came out and did all this different ways to go to market, because I think it really forced all of us to say hey, we got some real tough decisions to make here, the competition has caught up, in certain ways. Let's change the game, and 360 Data Management does that. I think they should take as much business as they can right now, because it's going to be short-lived. >> You said it makes you rethink your strengths, and like you said, change the game. >> Yeah, it changes the game. >> Yeah. Uh, okay, predictions on the MLB? Yankees won their getaway game today to put the pressure on the Red Sox, two and a half to two and a half games back. You know, the Indians are looking good, my man, Terry Francona. What's your prediction for it? >> The Sox fan's outnumbered two to one here, so go ahead. >> You know, so I shouldn't say that the Yankees are going to win the World Series? >> No, he's a Yankees fan. >> I'm a Yankee fan, too. >> Honestly, as a Yankee fan, I think we all know that they weren't supposed to be this team, so I think this is, that's the team to look out for. >> Dave: Maybe this is their year. >> I think this is the year that they're going to challenge people, I mean, are they going to win? It's Cleveland, do you really think Cleveland's going to win anything? They won one thing in the last, what, 30 years. >> That's what they used to say about us in Boston. Angelo, thanks so much coming on, really appreciate it. Keep right there, buddy, we'll be back with our next guest right after this short break. We're live from-- (electronic music)

>> Announcer: Live from the Washington D.C. It's the CUBE covering AWS Public Sector Summit 2017. Brought to you be Amazon Web Services and it's partner Ecosystem. >> Welcome back here on the CUBE as we continue our coverage of the AWS Public Sector Summit 2017. Along with John Furrier, I'm John Walls we're in the Walter E. Washington Convention Center. For the sixth show, of almost 10,000 attending. somewhere in that ball park. It's come along way in a very short period of time. AWS has a lot to feel good about. >> It's a good reinvent for Public Sector. It's huge. >> And not just to think about government. We think about education as well. We had a couple of segments about that. We are going to talk about government with our next guest. If we get a name wrong on this segment shame on us, John Stephenson with John Walls and John Furrier. John's a senior manage at Public Policy at AWS. John nice to have you with us we appreciate that. >> Thank you for having me. >> Thank you for your time. So your focus primarily state and local governments. What exactly as the conduit do you want to bring to their table from of AWS? >> Well I'm Senior Manager, of Public Policy for Amazon Web Services in the Eastern United States. I handle state and local government relations in the Eastern U.S. from Texas to Main and then South Florida. I help our business and also our partners in government to understand how public policy can enable cloud and modern technologies. It's a very exciting place to be because there's a lot going on in state and local government when it comes to IT modernization and cloud right now. >> I think about government too. There's that big umbrella we can put on (mumbles). It's public service. But federal government has a place and state and local. I think much more responsive, much more grass roots. So those applications are much more immediate. I would think. Does that come into play with you? That you need to be a little more nimble. Or you're helping your clients to be a litter more nimble or more agile? >> Absolutely, if you look at what state and local governments are doing. Essential services from delivering health care to taking out the trash, providing public safety, providing education it's handled at the state and local government. If you look at the number of times you touch government. It is state and local. Think about renewing a driver license. Think about paying a parking ticket. Think about getting a zoning permit for remodeling of your house. You're dealing with state and local government. The demands on state and local government are also higher. They're holding more data on citizens than the Federal government. They are undergoing massive population changes. It's either positive or negative. State and local governments which have budget constraints. Need to be more nimble, more innovative. They are natural early adopters and first movers of technology. If you look at some of the more exciting things about technology that are happening in the government space. I think it's happening at state and local government in the U.S. >> Smart cities by the way is the hottest trend. Intel one of the key sponsors of this show. We had two folks on here. AI is going to be a real nice gateway for some of these innovations on their side. They have 5G opportunities. They have transformation. Lot of technology going on under the covers, under the hood if you will. One of them is smart cities and that is something that is just mind blowing. Just from a technology stand point but even more mind blowing from a policy perspective. Who sets the rules? What side does the car run on? What digital services are the citizens going to get? Who pays for them? What does the government do? What does the private sector do? These are issues that need to be grappled with. Your thoughts on how you guys look at that? And how are your constituents engaging with that and thinking about it? >> I'm glad you mentioned smart cities because there's a lot of activity going on in that space. If you look at the internet of things technologies alone. One of the enablers of smart cities. As many as 53% of state and local government according to NASCIO are looking at these technologies or deploying them. It's great to see that because that will enable a lot of potential from smarter government services, better government services, improving service delivery and improving constituent fulfillment. Which resonates with us, as part of Amazon. We're all about our customer fulfillment and delighting our customer. >> Lower prices and ship things faster that's Bezos' ethos. That's Amazon's culture. >> Exactly. >> And you could deliver services any digital service. >> Everything we do starts with the customer and we work backwards. In the conversations I've had with policy makers in the state and local governments. They see smart cities as a way to do that. Everything from improving transportation in places like Columbus, Ohio. To improving connectivity and engagement with the internet in places Kansas City, Missouri. And new ways of delivering services in places like New York and Los Angeles. It's very exciting stuff. Policy makers are coming to us and others in the industry. What are the policies? What are the best practices that can enable these technologies? We've been working with them. Providing information on what we're seeing around the world. How open data can be made (mumbles). How security and compliance can be built into applications. And we're happy to provide that because we know from working in the cloud ourselves. The potential that's there for state and local government. >> You want to foster innovation but at the same time you don't want to create this restrictive environment. Or have legacy be the baggage that holds things back. In fact you look at some of the best smart cities implementation. It's Singapore. It's Dubai. It's areas all over the world. In some cases it didn't have real strong infrastructure. So now come back to your role. As you look at the U.S. which has great infrastructure. Except for broadband connectivity, we'd be faster. They have some pre-existing conditions. They're under pressure. The cloud is a prefect vehicle for them. Because they can come in with their existing stuff. Get apps and services online quicker. How are you dealing with the challenge of? OK, calm down we're not going to take over the world. No, skynet's not coming. You know terminator reference. That's a concern, privacy. Lot of in policy issues, to be dealt with. How do you handle those? >> I think with any policy issue. I've been in public policy for a while now. It really starts with education. Understanding in really simple layman's terms. What the cloud is. And what it is not. It is a very transformative technology. It is not an end all one size fits all technology. What we've done is help educate policy makers by understanding the potential of cloud. What it can do in terms of cost savings, improved security, and being more agile. And to tell that story, we don't use PowerPoints at Amazon. We're not coming in and giving PowerPoint presentations. >> Good ole flesh pounding, hand shakes, and hit the streets. >> We'll more importantly it's sharing the customer's stories We're talking with them about what's happening at the New York City Department of Transportation. We're talking with them about what's happening at the city of Los Angeles with their emergency operation center. About how cities are using cloud technologies to deliver far superior products and services faster. >> So what is New York doing and what is L.A. doing specifically? >> New York city they have their iRide application to help citizens get from one point to the other much more quickly and safely as part of their Vision Zero campaign. Anyone who's been in New York, and I've been in New York quite a few times. Knows that traffic and be a real pain getting from part of Manhattan to the other. So what iRide does, is it helps people navigate Manhattan and the other boroughs much more quickly and efficiently using all the modes of transportation available to them. The city of New York was able to deploy that much more quickly, to many more people. They're able to update it, keep it secure thanks to cloud technology offered by AWS. The city of Los Angeles. They face cyber attacks everyday. Then there are the huge cost of maintaining that security. But with cloud they're able to build out event management systems and integrate those with their Homeland Security technologies and practices. And to be able to do it for a fraction of the cost using traditional systems, traditional IT, and traditional practices. It's very exciting. Suddenly local government can move at the speed and agility of a startup. Which has made Amazon very innovative. Last year we launched over a thousand new services and features. Local governments are seeing that. They want to be more like us and others in the industry. That are using cloud to deliver new products and services. And be better at their job. >> And the education, I say it probably patience in the educational role. You think about just the civil liberties of the citizens. That's really job one. Because I think most people get spooked. Whoa all this surveillance. The thing about it, just watching Patriots Day with my family. You know the Boston bombing, Boston strong with Mark Wahlberg. These things actually happen all the time. And we take for granted the some of the things we have in the surveillance community for the kinds of data that's out there. The same time that's the balance. Can you bring me value with my liberties. It's the same compliance scheme. Same governance game. This is the public sector. >> Well, that's where I think cloud has a great story to tell With cloud you get the benefits of economies of scale. Of Amazon with security and also with privacy. We have multiple compliance frameworks. Everything from HIPPA, FERPA, CJIS, Criminal Justice Information Systems. We are zealous guardians of security and our customer's privacy. We don't look at data. We don't share data about with out our customer's permission. We have very strong safeguards. That's why if you look a the customer base of Amazon from banks to government agencies, health care companies. Even companies like Netflix and you would think they're a competitor of ours. They're running their IT in AWS. They trust us even though with Amazon video and Amazon prime. You would think they're a competitor. But they've put that level of trust in us and our systems and our practices that they can put their data there. And we're hearing it from customer after customer. That they feel more safer and more secure with their data in the cloud offered by AWS. And we've shared that with government officials. And they take great comfort in those statements. >> You hit on something earlier. When you said that state governments and local governments have more data at their disposal than the federal government has about their consumers. Because of that, how much higher do find their concerns to be, in terms of cyber security, in terms of hack proof secured networks and systems as opposed to what might happen at the federal level. Cause we think federal. We think big. About what happened with the U.S. government's payment systems last year OPM. State and local they've got a lot more data they're protecting >> I've had a great opportunity in my current job to talk with a lot of IT officials and policy makers in the state. And, often times a meeting will start. And they'll say I've read about this. I've heard about this. And we're often able to say that's not an issue with the cloud offered the AWS. Or that's something we've already addressed through our security and compliance frame works. For example, I was in one meeting and a state policy maker asked me, well what do you do about HIPPA compliance. We have HIPPA compliance in AWS. And then he tried to ask questions, well what about this, what about that. And each time our team was able to tell the state policy maker. We meet that. We exceed that. We actually help write the standard for that compliance frame work. What we've been able to show that policy maker and others. The cloud just offers a far superior security posture than what they can do on their own. It's taken some time because the cloud is new. And as we like to say, it's still day one in this field. But we are very confident as word gets out. More and more people will be trusting particularly in state government their data to the cloud. Because of the superiority it offers on so many different levels. >> Well certainly the words getting out. This event here is just as big as it's ever been (mumbles). Use to be a little summit, now it's grown. There's a lot of interest. >> It's very exciting for me. I've been to reinvent now twice. And this is just so delightful to see so many people from government from the U.S. from internationally here to learn about the cloud share their stories. It's really inspirational to see what's possible. >> That's a testament to Teresa Carlson. Who was just years ago knocking on doors. That was before cloud was cloud. Now it's just come a long way. Congratulations to the whole team. >> Thank you. It's really to delightful to see. And I can't wait to see what's in store for next year and after that. >> We still got a little bit here to go John Don't kick us out. John Stephenson, Public Policy at AWS. Thanks for being with us we appreciate that. >> Thank you. >> Thank you. With John Furrier, I'm John Walls and we'll be back with more here on the CUBE from Washington D.C. right after this. (upbeat music)