>> From theCUBE studios in Palo Alto, in Boston, bringing you data driven insights from theCUBE and ETR. This is Breaking Analysis with Dave Vollante. >> The rise of Kubernetes came about through a combination of forces that were, in hindsight, quite a long shot. Amazon's dominance created momentum for Cloud native application development, and the need for newer and simpler experiences, beyond just easily spinning up computer as a service. This wave crashed into innovations from a startup named Docker, and a reluctant competitor in Google, that needed a way to change the game on Amazon and the Cloud. Now, add in the effort of Red Hat, which needed a new path beyond Enterprise Linux, and oh, by the way, it was just about to commit to a path of a Kubernetes alternative for OpenShift and figure out a governance structure to hurt all the cats and the ecosystem and you get the remarkable ascendancy of Kubernetes. Hello and welcome to this week's Wikibon CUBE Insights powered by ETR. In this breaking analysis, we tapped the back stories of a new documentary that explains the improbable events that led to the creation of Kubernetes. We'll share some new survey data from ETR and commentary from the many early the innovators who came on theCUBE during the exciting period since the founding of Docker in 2013, which marked a new era in computing, because we're talking about Kubernetes and developers today, the hoodie is on. And there's a new two part documentary that I just referenced, it's out and it was produced by Honeypot on Kubernetes, part one and part two, tells a story of how Kubernetes came to prominence and many of the players that made it happen. Now, a lot of these players, including Tim Hawkin Kelsey Hightower, Craig McLuckie, Joe Beda, Brian Grant Solomon Hykes, Jerry Chen and others came on theCUBE during formative years of containers going mainstream and the rise of Kubernetes. John Furrier and Stu Miniman were at the many shows we covered back then and they unpacked what was happening at the time. We'll share the commentary from the guests that they interviewed and try to add some context. Now let's start with the concept of developer defined structure, DDI. Jerry Chen was at VMware and he could see the trends that were evolving. He left VMware to become a venture capitalist at Greylock. Docker was his first investment. And he saw the future this way. >> What happens is when you define infrastructure software you can program it. You make it portable. And that the beauty of this cloud wave what I call DDI's. Now, to your point is every piece of infrastructure from storage, networking, to compute has an API, right? And, and AWS there was an early trend where S3, EBS, EC2 had API. >> As building blocks too. >> As building blocks, exactly. >> Not monolithic. >> Monolithic building blocks every little building bone block has it own API and just like Docker really is the API for this unit of the cloud enables developers to define how they want to build their applications, how to network them know as Wills talked about, and how you want to secure them and how you want to store them. And so the beauty of this generation is now developers are determining how apps are built, not just at the, you know, end user, you know, iPhone app layer the data layer, the storage layer, the networking layer. So every single level is being disrupted by this concept of a DDI and where, how you build use and actually purchase IT has changed. And you're seeing the incumbent vendors like Oracle, VMware Microsoft try to react but you're seeing a whole new generation startup. >> Now what Jerry was explaining is that this new abstraction layer that was being built here's some ETR data that quantifies that and shows where we are today. The chart shows net score or spending momentum on the vertical axis and market share which represents the pervasiveness in the survey set. So as Jerry and the innovators who created Docker saw the cloud was becoming prominent and you can see it still has spending velocity that's elevated above that 40% red line which is kind of a magic mark of momentum. And of course, it's very prominent on the X axis as well. And you see the low level infrastructure virtualization and that even floats above servers and storage and networking right. Back in 2013 the conversation with VMware. And by the way, I remember having this conversation deeply at the time with Chad Sakac was we're going to make this low level infrastructure invisible, and we intend to make virtualization invisible, IE simplified. And so, you see above the two arrows there related to containers, container orchestration and container platforms, which are abstraction layers and services above the underlying VMs and hardware. And you can see the momentum that they have right there with the cloud and AI and RPA. So you had these forces that Jerry described that were taking shape, and this picture kind of summarizes how they came together to form Kubernetes. And the upper left, Of course you see AWS and we inserted a picture from a post we did, right after the first reinvent in 2012, it was obvious to us at the time that the cloud gorilla was AWS and had all this momentum. Now, Solomon Hykes, the founder of Docker, you see there in the upper right. He saw the need to simplify the packaging of applications for cloud developers. Here's how he described it. Back in 2014 in theCUBE with John Furrier >> Container is a unit of deployment, right? It's the format in which you package your application all the files, all the executables libraries all the dependencies in one thing that you can move to any server and deploy in a repeatable way. So it's similar to how you would run an iOS app on an iPhone, for example. >> A Docker at the time was a 30% company and it just changed its name from .cloud. And back to the diagram you have Google with a red question mark. So why would you need more than what Docker had created. Craig McLuckie, who was a product manager at Google back then explains the need for yet another abstraction. >> We created the strong separation between infrastructure operations and application operations. And so, Docker has created a portable framework to take it, basically a binary and run it anywhere which is an amazing capability, but that's not enough. You also need to be able to manage that with a framework that can run anywhere. And so, the union of Docker and Kubernetes provides this framework where you're completely abstracted from the underlying infrastructure. You could use VMware, you could use Red Hat open stack deployment. You could run on another major cloud provider like rec. >> Now Google had this huge cloud infrastructure but no commercial cloud business compete with AWS. At least not one that was taken seriously at the time. So it needed a way to change the game. And it had this thing called Google Borg, which is a container management system and scheduler and Google looked at what was happening with virtualization and said, you know, we obviously could do better Joe Beda, who was with Google at the time explains their mindset going back to the beginning. >> Craig and I started up Google compute engine VM as a service. And the odd thing to recognize is that, nobody who had been in Google for a long time thought that there was anything to this VM stuff, right? Cause Google had been on containers for so long. That was their mindset board was the way that stuff was actually deployed. So, you know, my boss at the time, who's now at Cloudera booted up a VM for the first time, and anybody in the outside world be like, Hey, that's really cool. And his response was like, well now what? Right. You're sitting at a prompt. Like that's not super interesting. How do I run my app? Right. Which is, that's what everybody's been struggling with, with cloud is not how do I get a VM up? How do I actually run my code? >> Okay. So Google never really did virtualization. They were looking at the market and said, okay what can we do to make Google relevant in cloud. Here's Eric Brewer from Google. Talking on theCUBE about Google's thought process at the time. >> One interest things about Google is it essentially makes no use of virtual machines internally. And that's because Google started in 1998 which is the same year that VMware started was kind of brought the modern virtual machine to bear. And so Google infrastructure tends to be built really on kind of classic Unix processes and communication. And so scaling that up, you get a system that works a lot with just processes and containers. So kind of when I saw containers come along with Docker, we said, well, that's a good model for us. And we can take what we know internally which was called Borg a big scheduler. And we can turn that into Kubernetes and we'll open source it. And suddenly we have kind of a cloud version of Google that works the way we would like it to work. >> Now, Eric Brewer gave us the bumper sticker version of the story there. What he reveals in the documentary that I referenced earlier is that initially Google was like, why would we open source our secret sauce to help competitors? So folks like Tim Hockin and Brian Grant who were on the original Kubernetes team, went to management and pressed hard to convince them to bless open sourcing Kubernetes. Here's Hockin's explanation. >> When Docker landed, we saw the community building and building and building. I mean, that was a snowball of its own, right? And as it caught on we realized we know what this is going to we know once you embrace the Docker mindset that you very quickly need something to manage all of your Docker nodes, once you get beyond two or three of them, and we know how to build that, right? We got a ton of experience here. Like we went to our leadership and said, you know, please this is going to happen with us or without us. And I think it, the world would be better if we helped. >> So the open source strategy became more compelling as they studied the problem because it gave Google a way to neutralize AWS's advantage because with containers you could develop on AWS for example, and then run the application anywhere like Google's cloud. So it not only gave developers a path off of AWS. If Google could develop a strong service on GCP they could monetize that play. Now, focus your attention back to the diagram which shows this smiling, Alex Polvi from Core OS which was acquired by Red Hat in 2018. And he saw the need to bring Linux into the cloud. I mean, after all Linux was powering the internet it was the OS for enterprise apps. And he saw the need to extend its path into the cloud. Now here's how he described it at an OpenStack event in 2015. >> Similar to what happened with Linux. Like yes, there is still need for Linux and Windows and other OSs out there. But by and large on production, web infrastructure it's all Linux now. And you were able to get onto one stack. And how were you able to do that? It was, it was by having a truly open consistent API and a commitment into not breaking APIs and, so on. That allowed Linux to really become ubiquitous in the data center. Yes, there are other OSs, but Linux buy in large for production infrastructure, what is being used. And I think you'll see a similar phenomenon happen for this next level up cause we're treating the whole data center as a computer instead of trading one in visual instance is just the computer. And that's the stuff that Kubernetes to me and someone is doing. And I think there will be one that shakes out over time and we believe that'll be Kubernetes. >> So Alex saw the need for a dominant container orchestration platform. And you heard him, they made the right bet. It would be Kubernetes. Now Red Hat, Red Hat is been around since 1993. So it has a lot of on-prem. So it needed a future path to the cloud. So they rang up Google and said, hey. What do you guys have going on in this space? So Google, was kind of non-committal, but it did expose that they were thinking about doing something that was you know, pre Kubernetes. It was before it was called Kubernetes. But hey, we have this thing and we're thinking about open sourcing it, but Google's internal debates, and you know, some of the arm twisting from the engine engineers, it was taking too long. So Red Hat said, well, screw it. We got to move forward with OpenShift. So we'll do what Apple and Airbnb and Heroku are doing and we'll build on an alternative. And so they were ready to go with Mesos which was very much more sophisticated than Kubernetes at the time and much more mature, but then Google the last minute said, hey, let's do this. So Clayton Coleman with Red Hat, he was an architect. And he leaned in right away. He was one of the first outside committers outside of Google. But you still led these competing forces in the market. And internally there were debates. Do we go with simplicity or do we go with system scale? And Hen Goldberg from Google explains why they focus first on simplicity in getting that right. >> We had to defend of why we are only supporting 100 nodes in the first release of Kubernetes. And they explained that they know how to build for scale. They've done that. They know how to do it, but realistically most of users don't need large clusters. So why create this complexity? >> So Goldberg explains that rather than competing right away with say Mesos or Docker swarm, which were far more baked they made the bet to keep it simple and go for adoption and ubiquity, which obviously turned out to be the right choice. But the last piece of the puzzle was governance. Now Google promised to open source Kubernetes but when it started to open up to contributors outside of Google, the code was still controlled by Google and developers had to sign Google paper that said Google could still do whatever it wanted. It could sub license, et cetera. So Google had to pass the Baton to an independent entity and that's how CNCF was started. Kubernetes was its first project. And let's listen to Chris Aniszczyk of the CNCF explain >> CNCF is all about providing a neutral home for cloud native technology. And, you know, it's been about almost two years since our first board meeting. And the idea was, you know there's a certain set of technology out there, you know that are essentially microservice based that like live in containers that are essentially orchestrated by some process, right? That's essentially what we mean when we say cloud native right. And CNCF was seated with Kubernetes as its first project. And you know, as, as we've seen over the last couple years Kubernetes has grown, you know, quite well they have a large community a diverse con you know, contributor base and have done, you know, kind of extremely well. They're one of actually the fastest, you know highest velocity, open source projects out there, maybe. >> Okay. So this is how we got to where we are today. This ETR data shows container orchestration offerings. It's the same X Y graph that we showed earlier. And you can see where Kubernetes lands not we're standing that Kubernetes not a company but respondents, you know, they doing Kubernetes. They maybe don't know, you know, whose platform and it's hard with the ETR taxon economy as a fuzzy and survey data because Kubernetes is increasingly becoming embedded into cloud platforms. And IT pros, they may not even know which one specifically. And so the reason we've linked these two platforms Kubernetes and Red Hat OpenShift is because OpenShift right now is a dominant revenue player in the space and is increasingly popular PaaS layer. Yeah. You could download Kubernetes and do what you want with it. But if you're really building enterprise apps you're going to need support. And that's where OpenShift comes in. And there's not much data on this but we did find this chart from AMDA which show was the container software market, whatever that really is. And Red Hat has got 50% of it. This is revenue. And, you know, we know the muscle of IBM is behind OpenShift. So there's really not hard to believe. Now we've got some other data points that show how Kubernetes is becoming less visible and more embedded under of the hood. If you will, as this chart shows this is data from CNCF's annual survey they had 1800 respondents here, and the data showed that 79% of respondents use certified Kubernetes hosted platforms. Amazon elastic container service for Kubernetes was the most prominent 39% followed by Azure Kubernetes service at 23% in Azure AKS engine at 17%. With Google's GKE, Google Kubernetes engine behind those three. Now. You have to ask, okay, Google. Google's management Initially they had concerns. You know, why are we open sourcing such a key technology? And the premise was, it would level the playing field. And for sure it has, but you have to ask has it driven the monetization Google was after? And I would've to say no, it probably didn't. But think about where Google would've been. If it hadn't open source Kubernetes how relevant would it be in the cloud discussion. Despite its distant third position behind AWS and Microsoft or even fourth, if you include Alibaba without Kubernetes Google probably would be much less prominent or possibly even irrelevant in cloud, enterprise cloud. Okay. Let's wrap up with some comments on the state of Kubernetes and maybe a thought or two about, you know, where we're headed. So look, no shocker Kubernetes for all its improbable beginning has gone mainstream in the past year or so. We're seeing much more maturity and support for state full workloads and big ecosystem support with respect to better security and continued simplification. But you know, it's still pretty complex. It's getting better, but it's not VMware level of maturity. For example, of course. Now adoption has always been strong for Kubernetes, for cloud native companies who start with containers on day one, but we're seeing many more. IT organizations adopting Kubernetes as it matures. It's interesting, you know, Docker set out to be the system of the cloud and Kubernetes has really kind of become that. Docker desktop is where Docker's action really is. That's where Docker is thriving. It sold off Docker swarm to Mirantis has made some tweaks. Docker has made some tweaks to its licensing model to be able to continue to evolve its its business. To hear more about that at DockerCon. And as we said, years ago we expected Kubernetes to become less visible Stu Miniman and I talked about this in one of our predictions post and really become more embedded into other platforms. And that's exactly what's happening here but it's still complicated. Remember, remember the... Go back to the early and mid cycle of VMware understanding things like application performance you needed folks in lab coats to really remediate problems and dig in and peel the onion and scale the system you know, and in some ways you're seeing that dynamic repeated with Kubernetes, security performance scale recovery, when something goes wrong all are made more difficult by the rapid pace at which the ecosystem is evolving Kubernetes. But it's definitely headed in the right direction. So what's next for Kubernetes we would expect further simplification and you're going to see more abstractions. We live in this world of almost perpetual abstractions. Now, as Kubernetes improves support from multi cluster it will be begin to treat those clusters as a unified group. So kind of abstracting multiple clusters and treating them as, as one to be managed together. And this is going to create a lot of ecosystem focus on scaling globally. Okay, once you do that, you're going to have to worry about latency and then you're going to have to keep pace with security as you expand the, the threat area. And then of course recovery what happens when something goes wrong, more complexity, the harder it is to recover and that's going to require new services to share resources across clusters. So look for that. You also should expect more automation. It's going to be driven by the host cloud providers as Kubernetes supports more state full applications and begins to extend its cluster management. Cloud providers will inject as much automation as possible into the system. Now and finally, as these capabilities mature we would expect to see better support for data intensive workloads like, AI and Machine learning and inference. Schedule with these workloads becomes harder because they're so resource intensive and performance management becomes more complex. So that's going to have to evolve. I mean, frankly, many of the things that Kubernetes team way back when, you know they back burn it early on, for example, you saw in Docker swarm or Mesos they're going to start to enter the scene now with Kubernetes as they start to sort of prioritize some of those more complex functions. Now, the last thing I'll ask you to think about is what's next beyond Kubernetes, you know this isn't it right with serverless and IOT in the edge and new data, heavy workloads there's something that's going to disrupt Kubernetes. So in that, by the way, in that CNCF survey nearly 40% of respondents were using serverless and that's going to keep growing. So how is that going to change the development model? You know, Andy Jassy once famously said that if they had to start over with Amazon retail, they'd start with serverless. So let's keep an eye on the horizon to see what's coming next. All right, that's it for now. I want to thank my colleagues, Stephanie Chan who helped research this week's topics and Alex Myerson on the production team, who also manages the breaking analysis podcast, Kristin Martin and Cheryl Knight help get the word out on socials, so thanks to all of you. Remember these episodes, they're all available as podcasts wherever you listen, just search breaking analysis podcast. Don't forget to check out ETR website @etr.ai. We'll also publish. We publish a full report every week on wikibon.com and Silicon angle.com. You can get in touch with me, email me directly david.villane@Siliconangle.com or DM me at D Vollante. You can comment on our LinkedIn post. This is Dave Vollante for theCUBE insights powered by ETR. Have a great week, everybody. Thanks for watching. Stay safe, be well. And we'll see you next time. (upbeat music)

>> live from Boston, Massachusetts. It's the you covering your red hat. Some twenty nineteen >> rots. >> You buy bread >> hat, >> and we'LL go back here on the Cube as we continue our coverage here. Red Hat Summit day. One of three days of Walter Wall coverage coming to you exclusively here on the Q. I'm John Walls was too Millman. Thank you for joining us. And we're now joined by a couple of gentlemen. Guess the dynamic duo of the container World it at Red Hat. Scott McCarty is the principal product manager of Containers. That open shift and Forell. Scott. Good to see you, sir. >> You could see it >> and been. Bree are Who's the principal product? Manager of Containers and Koro s, Of course. Also it Red hat Been. Thank you for joining us. First off, just your thought about show. Obviously, there's a lot of educational programming going on up down, big crowds, a lot of buzz. Good activity day one, at least from our perspective. How are you guys seeing this so far? >> I love it. I mean, it's been great so far. We just had us. I just had a session, just got out of it. was completely full of people trying to get in that were lined up against a wall. So it's been very exciting so far. >> Yeah. Ben. So it's one of >> my favorite times of the year, right? It's so much energy. Everybody comes with the exchange of ideas, just feedback and everything is one of my favorites. >> Oh, good. Right now s o l e made available publicly today for the first time. We talked about that a lot so far on the program, I'd like to hear from >> your side of the fence. Then what does that mean to you in terms of the container world and the impact that you, you know, from here going forward, you've got a whole new world of concern, I would think Scott. >> Yeah. I mean, with the relic, it's it's >> exciting because we're releasing, uh, you know, a lot of new tools around containers, >> a ton of new operational, you know, management capabilities. I mean, it's just it's an exciting release, Ben. It's a It's a big step forward, right? Every single release is a big deal, and we look at the container space. It's evolved a lot in the past for five years right when we came out. Seven. So technology's matured, Really, it's Ah, it's a smooth, easy experience to get to the release. And if lots going into it a lot, >> Yeah, so, Scott, It's funny. I think back. Turn back. Five years ago, we had a lot of jokes about doctors. You mean the pants? Because container ization and, you know, limits, containers and everything. That was something most people hadn't heard about here. Twenty nineteen, You said, There's, you know, crowds trying to get in the door. And it's not what but there really digging in and understand the tools we give a little bit of. You know what? What's what's with the excitement these days? Where are the customers? And you know what? What do you digging into >> with them? Yeah, well ah, >> funny example. So I asked I asked this last session, You know, raise your hand if you've used containers. If you just even fired up a container before and everyone raise your hand. And now, five years ago, that was, like one person >> and then even last you worked for Google. Yeah. Even last >> year that it was still maybe forty percent of the people, and now it's one hundred percent when they come to a session. So I mean, it's it is it is definitely changed, a tremendous amount. And now it's about So I joked, You know, five years ago is about using a chef knife, you know, just like you cut everything with it, right? You cut it. Vegetables, meat, whatever. And there was like one thing, and you just figured out Doctor and Cooper names was even on the radar Yet now it's about refining all the tools and getting to a place where, like, it's really getting excited, cause now we have special paring knives and chef knife and, you know, hibachi, knife and all these different, more specialized >> tools. So it's getting saying >> You think it's easy to >> adopt now to write, because years ago everyone was hedging their bets on you know what orchestration am I going to use? What piece? Um, I'm gonna build my stack. We have >> now. It's much, much clear, well defined. You know, Cooper Netease is dominant factor, right? Mean, open shift is huge, huge growth for us in that space. So I mean, it's it's it's a lot easier for customers to get in that game now than it was, you know? Yeah, just a couple years ago. Yeah, just a couple years ago. All right, so let's let's sticking out security a little bit because that was one of the big question marks in the early days. And you know something? We talk about it all the shows. It's it's definitely a focus of the real late launch. So where were the container world today and anything new or nuance that the audience should understand? I think on the security side you've got I have three or four big points there. One is the container tools of worshipping. Today they basically inherit the full Lennox security model. Right? So no longer do you have ah, privilege socket. That is, I kind of that weak factor, if you will, that's gone on. Really? So that's a big That's a big win right there. Beyond that, we've got a new crystal policies. You can set a central policy for the O. S. And that works in the containers well, so of you and enforce a particular kind of floor, if you will, of crypto. You could do that with relate for the host way and images as well. That's a that's a big part of it. And then we also have new tools that you can build smaller containers because how did the security is what is in my container? So if you're putting less less packages and content in that image, that's a much smaller Becker as well. Soon. >> Yeah. So, um, from from a security perspective, too, you know, you know the fact that now we have, um, kind of we've got a set of tools now that we can do experiments with things like ruthless, for example. You know, we're tech preview release of ruthless contract, so historically have always ran them, you know, as route. That's just how it works. I mean, we kind of figured it out one way and did it, and it was cool. And then at a certain point, we went all right, we need these other use cases where want developers to build to do it. For example, I just talked to a customer that it has four two hundred. I'm sorry, developers that are all running instances on their laptops PM's with pod man and build a running and, you know, using these tools to actually build containers, and they want to do ruthless bad. They want to do it in all their essentially all their environment, so that people are really hungry for a lot of these security features that we're working on now and relate. And it's something that we're releasing even as a vato. >> How did the capabilities changed in terms of relate now and what you have to provide the support? So what's transformed? And then what will be the need in order to build on that toe work on that and to make it more secure stables on so >> far? Well, I think I think you kind of have to dig into, like, a selection of what tools we decided to go in. Relate you'LL see that it's pod man. Build a scope. Here are the three main lower level tools that we have, and those tools are built serving a Unix mindset where it's like you can pipe things together and do things and use them collaboratively together to go remotely inspect images, pull them, build them from scratch, you know, run them locally, not as roots run them as a non route, contains things like that way or not at, you know, we're not releasing doctrine. Relate. And so so the transition. There is probably the biggest transition for users. Kind of realizing. Okay, we're going kind of broken this apart into three little or tools that we can then use Todd Man being the main one you go to. And then and then it's got a command line that's very similar. And so it's very easy, tio kind of transition over. But then you start to again kind of my my chef knife reference. You realize once you transition from, say, Dr Pod man, you kind of that's your chef knife. You kind of know what? How to start doing things that way. But then you start to get more refined and start to dig deeper into, you know, like, you know, into building scope. You essentially teacher. Yeah. >> You're good there. Yeah. I don't know. All right. Whatever he says. Scott >> Universal base image. Something we've talked a little bit about to tell us how that this is going to impact, you know, talk about everybody building things on their laptop. Seems like that's an extension of where this fits. Help help us understand? >> Yeah, I can't hide my enthusiasm. One how excited I am by Eva, and I will admit Ivory had a couple people come to me and say, This is the most exciting thing for me at Summit period And I think that's interesting because it's not actually something new and that, you would say from a technology perspective, how exciting is that? I don't know, but like it allows a set of collaboration that we've never been able to like, really, really do with a well base image historically, and I think the real base image is the highest quality basement temperament out there. But the problem is, even if you had something really simple, like so you had one university and that created some kind of science experiment in a container, and then they want to push that out to a public registry, then pull it down a different university and share it. They couldn't do that under the terms of the rail base image. So that was that. Was that create a little bit of friction with the FBI? Now that's completely gone. You can now run it anywhere you want, distribute anywhere you want, just the distribution alone is exciting. It and the fact that when you >> run it on rail, you >> build on rail, run on relics completely supported Israel. But you can now push it out to a public registry and let it sit out there and other people can >> use it in an experiment. So is the, you know, coming together of container ization in that distribution is that would kind of is really new with this, as opposed to the ways that I used to be able to share lennox images in the past. >> Well, all I think I think the challenge was you'd have some people that would want to do something. They want to build a distributed anywhere they want have that freedom. But they still wanted the quality of the rail basement. Now that created friction, right? So then they'd have to make an unnatural choice between, like, a fedora or I use, you know, well, maybe how you sent to less and your lying and none of those have all the things that I want, right? It was like a card game trying to get all the components that you want. You want sport, ability of Raoul. You want the security of the performance center center. But you couldn't. You couldn't distribute anywhere, so that created friction where you make on natural choices on basement. Now you be. I just The name implies that universal use it for anything you want. >> Same for communities to write because they don't want to make one that could freely distribute and then another like supported variant. They have more to maintain its more cycles and everything so simple. Find that it is a big deal. Yeah, >> and migration between base images is a linen migration, so it's frustrating to do. You don't want to do it. You want to build on one thing. And then I thought I distribute that thing anywhere. Well, then it's >> interesting, you know, go back a few years. There was this big movement to do, like just enough OS. How do I slim down the core? Os was I don't need everything that you know Realm necessarily does. So have we gotten over that? And we now gotten with you know, the things like you be I down to like a nice unit that's easily terrible and distributed. It's a good question. It's a topic that we'LL never go away. I don't think we're still. It's just changing its form, right? It still exists on the host. It's still exists in images. It's still exist with unit colonels and everything. I >> think where we >> are today. That was a really good spot, right? We've got several footprints of FBI. If there's several footprints of Rehl, including well, Core OS, which is like bedded version of rail into open shift right for a small form factor container host. So where we are today is very strong, but it's going to continue to evolve and get better. So, yeah, >> and we I mean, we look at the future and we're we're looking at ways toe. Make it even smaller, you know, you're always looking at, but yeah, Ben, mention there's three footprints of you B i today. There's a minimal image. There's a standard image, and then there's even a little bit bigger images allows you run multiple services, but you know that's the selection today. But in the future, we're looking at making the minimal one more minimal. Were even looking at, you know, making the standard one more minimal. >> Yeah, we're not done. Yeah, we're not done. You're never done. I guess the last thing I have on this, you know, multi cloud is such you know where customers are today. You know, you're gonna have the CEO Microsoft up on stage today. Two years ago, when I was here, it was the partnership between Red had an eight of us was all the discussion. I spoke to the Red Hat team, the Cloud show recently. So how does the tooling that you have fit in tow all the clouds discussion that I have when I talked to users? You know, one of the biggest lock ins they have is the skill set and the understanding of different tools and knowledge. And so you know, where we standardize and where do we still have work to do in this space? That's a big question. So yeah, I guess way addressing a multiple levels right at the core. The center Israel. Right. So well ate right now today on all those cloud platforms that you just name, right. So same say maybe I level guarantee that ten years hard work everything. It's it's everywhere. It's pervasive today. Level up, right. You've got the container images and stuff same story. They're Goa level. You've got open shift that is pervasive everywhere. And now we're doing really cool things. And Cooper Net. He's like a machine, a p I and all these other things toe actually control those individual cloud infrastructures which abstracts all of the customers ations per for food for him, which is >> powerful. So I think, for me was the most exciting things is the open shift for paradigm shift that shift from managing individual nodes to ship to managing the cluster as a computer, which we've said for what, twenty years? The sun? I think you know the cluster is the computer, you know? But we're really there today. Like we have a single E p I. Ben mention the machine, the machine, a PR machine configure operator. There's there's essentially automation built into the chip platform now that allows you to appoint the same on any cloud. So eight of us azure, you know, open stack, even on VM, where even on, you know, even in liver gonna look a laptop. There's a way to deploy it in the identical, you know, in an identical configuration. To me, that's exciting, because now I have one set of things I could learn. And then again in the standard red hat way. If you feel locked in, you can go use a Okay, Daddy, you can use the upstream. So you're never locked into our product, Which that's something. Get a lot with Kat drives, right? Like if you're locked in there, you're you're locked in there. There's no there's no, you know, open source version of that to get out of that. >> So you've talked about growth opportunities? You said, No, we're not done yet. Making the joke about your own work. You've talked about a twenty year evolution, you know, Just refer to that. And if you could look, you know, whether it's three, four, five, whatever years down the road, where's the big leap? Where's that have to come? Where do you think it's going to come in terms of the capabilities that you want to work on and what you want to be able to deliver from where you are right? Now >> get my crystal ball. Yeah. >> Yeah, Well, I think you've got one. Yeah. Then I have a lot of confidence in you, but if you had to say okay, this is this is atleast where we're gonna be. We're gonna have to spend a lot of our time because this this is the area that we think I think needs most attention. A >> couple of things, right? People only scale so much. So automation is an area that's bulletproof going forward, and it's going to evolve and take many forms. Right now, our big push has been on the operator space and obviously technologies like answerable that's going to continue to evolve and make make people scale better. That's probably one of the biggest ones. And I >> think that's one of the biggest ones. I think I think for me, probably where my mind wanders, is around partners and building that ecosystem in the open ship space similar to what you see in the realm. Because system today I think three, four years from now you're going to see it really exploded at ABC that I already see it exploding. But by then you'LL see it maturing and you'LL really see. I think if you look at the operator paradigm, I'm very excited by that because it's kind of like the Emma science dollar that Microsoft invented. You know that kind of made that that ubiquitous that install experience. Except that operators make it you because they install and managed a too. So I think, like, kind of to his point of, like making that the install really simple and then the operation of it. Over time, I think you're going to see a lot of I think. I think you couldn't fill a room and ask him, Like what I in fact, I did. I asked what an operator was, you know, and they they weren't super aware of it yet. But I think in the next five years, that will become the big with this way of just installing software. >> All right, well, we're going to check back in five. We'LL see how it turns out and been by then. Bring that crystal ball back with wood. Ok, I'll do a good deal. Thanks, gentlemen. Thanks for the time you haven't put on the Cuba as we continue our coverage here. Red Hat Summit. We're in Boston back with more right after this

>> Live from Seattle, Washington, it's theCUBE, covering KubeCon, and CloudNativeCon North America 2018. Brought to you by Red Hat, the CloudNative Computing Foundation, and the Antigo System Partners. >> Hey, welcome back everyone live here in Seattle for the theCUBE's coverage of KubeCon and CloundNativeCon 2018. I'm John Furrier, theCUBE with Stu Miniman, breaking down all the action. Three days of coverage, we're in day two. A lot of action at Open-source. 8,000 attendees, up from 4,000 North America, they were in China, they were all over Europe. The community's growing in a massive way. We had two great guests from Red Hat, all making it happen, part of the community. We've got Diane Mueller, whose theCUBE alumni director of community development, many times on theCUBE, good to see you, and Rob Szumski, principal product manager, both at Red Hat. Guys, thanks for coming on. Great to see you again. >> Yeah, glad to be here. - Great to be here. >> So the world's changing a lot, and there was some news recently around Red Hat. I can't remember what it was. Recently, something big news, but you guys have been big players in Open-source for years. We always cover it, we always wax on about the origination of it and how the evolution, but the CloudNative piece has gotten so real, and your role in it particularly, we've had many conversations, going maybe back to the OpenStack days of how OpenShift was developing, then the bet on Kubernetes that you made, Core OS acquisition, those two things I think, to me, at least from my perspective, really catalyzed a lot of things at the right time, right? So, from there, just a lot of things has just been happening really in a good way. Big tail wind for you guys, CloudNative app developers are using Open-source, CI/CD pipeline, and then also policy based up under the hood, completely big shift in moving the game down the field. So big congratulations first of all. But what's new? What's the update? >> The update is Operators. I think the next big thing that we are really focusing on, and that's a game changer for all the second day operations type things, and we'll make Rob talk about it in detail, is the rise of Kubernetes' Operators. It's not a scary thing, it's not like terminator day, or anything like that, but it is really the thing that helps us make the service catalogs, the Kubernetes marketplaces really accessible to all of the data bases as a service, and all of the other things, and takes out some of the complexity of delivering applications and database  as a Service to anybody running Kubernetes anywhere. >> Take a minute to explain Operator, real quick, and then we can jump into it, because I think this is a fundamental trend, that we're seeing. Developer trend is pretty obvious, it's been that word for awhile, CloudScale, ML, machine learning, and all the goodness around application development, but the Operator side of it has been an IT thing. But now you guys have a different, a new approach that's winning. What is it? What is Operator? >> Well, it's Kubernetes that has the approach, and I'll let you-- >> Yeah, so it's basically like the rise of containers was great, because you could take a single container and package an application and give to somebody, and know that they can run it successfully. And Operator does that for a distributed system in the exact same way. So you're using all the Kubernetes primitives, so you're not reinventing service discovery, and seeker management, and all that. And you can give somebody an entire Kafka stack, or a machine learning stack, or whatever it is, these very complex distributed systems, and have them run it without having to be an expert. They need to know Kafka at a high level, but not exactly all the underpinnings of it, because that's all baked in the software. >> And the benefit and the impact of the organization is what? >> And just to clarify, so this was added in, I believe Kubernetes is like 1.7, it's something that's in there, it's not something Red Hat specific- >> Yeah, it's like-- >> So you're extending Kubernetes so that you have a custom resource definition, which is an extensible mechanism for saying, hey, I've got a deployment or a staple set, but what if I want to have a new object called a MongoDB? That knows how to deploy, and manage, and upgrade MongoDB. So that's the extension mechanism that we're using. >> Yeah, so you got to think, there's certain applications that this is going to make, just a lot easier how I manage them, deploy them, things like that. Any specific examples you want to share as to-- >> All the clustered data bases. >> There's a lot of the application side in this model have been very excited about this. >> So its all the vendors and partners that want a hybrid Cloud story, just targeting Kubernetes, and we're using Kubernetes under the hood, and then everybody wants to run like a staple data base tier, whether that's Mongo and Couchbase, and Cassandra, whatever. And these are all distributed systems. >> Alright, so I want you to just perch, you said a hybrid Cloud. Explain that model, because there's just something in general discussion that is hybrid or multi means I'm running multiple places, I'm not necessarily stretching an application, but I have instances there, just want to make sure we're on the same page. >> So this would be more the compatibility that you're programming against when you're building an operator, is Kubernetes. It's not a Cloud offering, it's not OpenShift, so you're just targeting Kubernetes, and so you can run MongoDB on prem, in the Cloud, and have it function the exact same, by standing up one of these Operators. And then if that Operator has higher level constructs for how to do multi-cluster aware data rebalancing, you can take advantage of that too. >> And the Open-source status of this product is what? >> It's all Open-source, it's all in the github repos, there's a Google group for Operator framework, that anyone can come and participate in. We hold SIG meetings on the third Friday of every month, 9 a.m. Pacific Time, and it's a completely Open-source project. There's a whole framework around it, so there's the Operator SDK, the Operator Lifecycle Management, and Operator metering, all the tooling there to help people build and manage these Operators, and it's all being built out there in the open with the community's support and feedback loops. >> What's the feedback? What's the top feedback you guys are getting right now? Seeing right now? >> I have to say, this is really, like I've been hanging out with you guys like for the past three, four months on this topic, trying to get my head around it and everything, and we came here and we had two sessions, an intro session and a deep dive session, intro yesterday, deep dive today. Today's deep dive, the room was about 250 people, and they're were people outside of it-- >> Security guards blocking people from coming in. >> Nobody could come in and it's like, it's insane. It's like, everybody needs these things, and everybody wants to figure out that, and when you ask people in the room whose building one, half the room raises their hands. It's just crazy. This thing crept up on us really, maybe not on Core OS, okay, it crept up on me very quickly, and it's very rapid adoption. We have a Kubernetes Operators workshop on Friday, so not only do we have pre-conference days of like OpenShift Cons that are huge now, but now we're starting to book end, CNCF events and put on other things, just because, and that, we had 100 seats that we were hoping we would fill, and it sold out in like minutes once it got in there, and there's a waiting list of like 300 people. It is like one of, aside from Knative, and all the other wonderful hot things too, it is one of the most interesting developments I think right now. >> Thirst for the content. Would it impact? >> Yeah, and you can get all of the documentation is out there now, and people are already building them. We have a list of 50 community Operators. It's just, it's phenomenal how quickly it's growing. >> You know, Diane and Rob, it's funny because you know, we do so many of these theCUBE interviews, and this is our 10th year doing theCUBE coming up, and I remember the conversations going back in the OpenStack days, we would ask questions like, if you had a magic wand, what would you like, hope to have happened, right? And you know, those are parts of the evolution, where it's like, it's aspirational, things are being built. It seems now with Kubernetes, it's almost like, wait a minute, it's actually, this is like the goodness is so compelling, above and below Kubernetes that it's almost like uncomprehendible. You think about, oh this is actually happening. Finally the kinds of steady state kind of operational things that have been a pain in the butt for years-- >> Yeah, the toil, it's gone, for the most part. >> Yeah. >> So Rob, I've been having a lot of just thinking back to, you're employee number two at Core OS, when I first talked to Core OS, it was, we're going to build all of these individual tools, and we're going to Open-source them, and it's going to be good. We watched this just rising ecosystem and the CNCF, and it feels like what's nice and what's different that I see, compared to some previous things, is it's not one product or even a small group of companies. It's, I have this tool kit, and some of them work together, but many of them are independently used. We've talked to your peers earlier about it, etCD. etCD is totally stand alone, doesn't need to be Kubernetes. What have you seen, if you go back to that original vision, would Core OS just been, part of this whole ecosystem, and done it, if this was available, and has this delivering on a promise that your team had hoped to work on? >> Yeah, so we've always filled in where we see gaps, and so something like etCD, the concept is not new, and it comes from Google, and they have a system internally, and as Brandon got up on stage and said, we needed that coordinate, reboot, to grow out, to cluster of machines. It didn't exist so we had to build it. Same thing with how we wanted to manage Linux. There was no distro that even resembled what we were doing. Wanted to do automatic upgrades, people thought that was crazy, so we had to go build it. And so, but we always adopted the best of breed technology, when it existed. In our early bet Kubernetes, we just saw, this is the thing, and went for it. I don't even remember what version, but it was months and months before it was zero point oh, or one point oh, so it was, we've been doing it forever. And you just see the right thing, and it's the little nugget that you need, and if you don't see it, then you build it. >> What are you surprised about Rob, in terms of the ecosystem now, you mentioned some goodness is happening, still a lot more to do, visibility around value creation, you're starting to see spots where value can be created in the ecosystem, which is great. Still more work areas, but what's surprising you? What do you see as opportunities, challenges? Your thoughts, because this vision of ease of use and programmability, is happening, right? So there's still more work to do. What's your vision there? What's your thoughts? >> I mean, I think self service is key, so this is like the rise of the Cloud comes from self service for developers, and Kubernetes gives you the right abstraction, where self service for VM's, like OpenStack, which is not quite at the level of what you want. You don't want a VM, you actually wanted a place to deploy an application, you wanted load balancing, you wanted service discovery, you didn't want like a bare Ubuntu VM, and so Kubernetes raises you up to where you're productive, and then it's about building stuff on top. But what's interesting, in the space is, we're still kind of competing on Kubernetes installers, and stuff like that, so we're not even really into like the phase where people are being super productive on the platform, other than these leading companies. So I think we'll democratize that, and we'll have a whole new landscape. >> And so 2019 you see as what being a key theme for Kubernetes? >> I think it'll be Core stuff built on top, like all the serverless frameworks, a bunch of container natives storage solutions, solving some of these problems that folks are reaching out to external machine learning, but bringing that onto the cluster, GPU support, that type of stuff. It's all about the workloads. >> And tradition end users, you have a huge install base, with Red Hat, well documented, as the end users start coming in and looking at CloudNative, and doing a reimagine of their environment, whether it's IT span, IT investments, to have a run their coding and the deployments. It's going to change. 2019's going to have an impact on what I call mainstream enterprise, for lack of a better description. What's the impact of those guys, 'cause now, they now have head room, they can do more, what's the main stream enterprise look like right now with the impact of Kubernetes? >> I think they're going to start deploying applications and get like lower the time to business value, much, much lower. And I was just talking to a customer, and they ordered bare metal machines like a year ago, and they're still not racked and in the data center. And so people are still getting over that type of stuff, but once you have like a shared Kubernetes layer, you can onboard teams like crazy. I mean, name spaces are free, quote, unquote, and you can get 35 engineering teams on a Kubernetes cluster super easy. >> So they can ramp up in development teams basically, as they bring value in-house, versus outsourcing everything. They start getting development teams, this is where the action is. >> I think you're also going to see the rise of those end users contributing back things, to the Kubernetes community and as Lyft, and Uber, and everybody are great examples of that. Uber with Jaeger, and Lyft is, we were just in the Operators thing, and they raised their hand that they are about to Open-source it, a few Operators that they're building and stuff, and you're just going to see people that you didn't normally see. Often these large foundation driven things are vendor driven, but I think what you see here, is the end user community is now embracing the Open-source, is getting the legal teams there, allowing them to share their things, because one, they get more people to maintain them, and more people working on them, but it's really I think the rise of the end user we'll see, as they start participating more and more in here. And that's the promise of Open-source. >> And that's where CNCF really made it's bones. It wasn't really vendor led per se, it was really end users, the guys building out their stuff for the first time. You see Lyft for instance, great example, you guys did a Core OS, this is like the new generational model. Final question before we break. I want to get this out there. Get a plug in for Red Hat. What are you guys, what's the focus for the show? What's the news? What's the big story for Red Hat here at KubeCon this year? >> I think it's Operators, that's what we're here talking about. It's a really big push to once again get smarter workloads onto the cluster. We've got a really great hybrid story, we've got a really great over the air upgrade story that we're bringing from some of the Core OS technology, and then the next thing is, once it's easy to run 35 clusters, we need a bunch of workloads to put on there. And so we want to save folks from the toil of running all those workloads as well, just like we did at the cluster level. >> Awesome. >> Well put. I couldn't add more. One of the things that Core OS did, you hit the nail on the head earlier, is when there was something missing, they helped us build it, and with the Operator SDK, and the Lifecycle Management, and the metering, and whatever else the tooling is, they have really been inspirational inside of Red Hat. And so they filled a number of gaps, and it's just been all Operators all the time right now. >> It's great when a plan comes together. You guys got a great tail wind. Congratulations on all the success, and it's just the beginning of the wave. It's theCUBE, covering the wave of innovation here at KubeCon CloudNativeCon 2018, we'll be back with more live coverage. Day two of Three days of Kube Coverage. We'll be right back. (upbeat music)

>> Live from Seattle, Washington, it's the Cube, covering KubeCon and Cloud Native Con North America 2018. Brought to you by Red Hat, the Cloud Native Computing Foundation and its ecosystem partners. >> Welcome back everyone. We are live in Seattle for KubeCon 2018, Cloud Native Con. It's the Cube, I'm John Furrier, your host with Stu Miniman. Our next guest is Ashesh Badani, who is the Vice-President and General Manager of Cloud Platforms at Red Hat. Great to see you, welcome back to the Cube. >> Thanks for having me on. Always good to be back. >> So you guys, again, we talk every year with you. It's almost like a check-in. So what's new? You got some big, obviously, the news about the IBM. We don't really want to get into that detail. I know you just a stop on that because it's already out there. But you guys had great success with platformers of service. Now you got the growth of Kubecon and Cloud Native Con, 8000 attendees and users. There's uptake. What's the update on the Red Had side? >> Yeah, we're excited. Excited to be back at Kubecon. It's bigger and better than it's ever been, I think so. That's fantastic. We've been investing in this community for over four years now, since 2014. Really, from the earliest days. Based the entire platform on it. Continue growing that, adding lots of customers across the world. And I think what's really been gratifying for us to see is just the diversity of participants. Both in user perspective as well as the wider ecosystem. So whether you're a storage player, a networking player, management, marketing, what have you. Everything sort of building around this ecosystem. I think we're creating a great amount of value and we're seeing diverse applications being built. >> So you guys have been good then on (mumbles), good timing, a lot of things are going on. This show is an open-source community, right. And that's been a great thing. This is kind of where the end users come from. But two other personas come in that we're seeing participate heavily. The IT pro, the IT expert, and then the classic developer. So you have kind of a melting pot of how this is kind of horizontally connecting. You guys have been successful in the IT side. Where is this impacting the end users?6 How is this open-source movement impacting IT, specifically, and at the end of the day, the developers who are writing code? Have to get more stuff out. What's your thoughts? >> So, we hosted OpenShift Commons yesterday. OpenShift Commons, for the the folks who don't know, is our gathering of participants within the larger OpenShift community. We had lots of end users come and talk about the reason they're adopting a Kubernetes-based platform is to get greater productivity. So for example, if you're someone like Progressive Insurance, an established organization, how do you release applications quicker? How do you make your developers more productive? How do you enable them to have more languages, tools, frameworks at their disposal? To be able to compete in this world where you've got start-ups, you've got other companies trying to compete aggressively with you. I think it's a big dent here, right? It's not just for if you work traditional IT. But it's for if you were a company of all sizes. >> When you talk about customers, every customer is different. You've got, you look at IT, everything is additive, it tends to be a bit of a heterogeneous mess when you get there. Help connect for us what are you hearing from customers? How does, not just Kubernetes, but everything going on here in the Cloud Native environment? How is it helping them? How is it changing the way that they do their business and how's Red Hat involved? >> So one thing we've been noticing is that Hybrid Cloud is here and here to stay. So we've consistently been hearing this from customers. They've invested lots of money and time and energy, skills, in their existing environments. And they want to take advantage of public clouds. But they want to do that with flexibility, with portability, to bring to bear. What we've been trying to do is focus on exactly that. How do we help solve that problem and provide an abstraction. How do you provide primitives. So, for example, we announced our support of Knative, and how we'll make that available as part of OpenShift. Why's that? Well, how can we provide Serverless primitives within the platform so folks can have the flexibility to be able to adopt next-generation technologies. But to be able to do that consistently regardless of where they deploy. >> So, I love that. Talk about meeting the customers there. One of the things that really strikes me, there's so much change going on in the industry. And that's an area that Red Hat has a couple decades of experience. Maybe help explain how Red Hat in bringing some of that enterprise, oversight. Just like they've done for Linux for a long time. >> Yeah, yeah. Stu, you're following us very closely, as are you John, and the team at the Cube. We're trying to embrace that change as it comes upon us. So, I think the last time I was here, I was here with Alex Polvi of Core OS. Red Hat acquired Core OS in January. >> Big deal. >> Yeah, big acquisition for us. And now we're starting to see the fruits of some of that labor. In terms of integrating that technology. Why did we do that? We wanted to get more automation into the platform. So, customers have said, hey, look, I want these clusters to be more self-managing, self-healing. And so we've been really focused on saying how can we take those challenges the customers have, bring that directly into a platform so they're performing more and more like the expectations that they have in the public cloud, but in these diverse, introgenous, environments. >> That speaks to the operating model of cloud. You guys have a wholistic view because you're Red Hat. You got a lot of customers. You have the Dev House model, you got the Kubernetes container orchestration, micro-services. How does that all connect together for the customer? I mean, is it Turn Key and Open Shift? You guys had that nice bet with Core OS, pays big, huge dividends. What are some of those fruits in the operating model? So the customer has to think about the systems. It's a systems model, it's an operating system, so-to-speak. But they still got to develop and build apps. So you got to have a systems-wholistic view and be able to deliver the value. Where does it all connect? What's your explanation? >> So distributed systems are complex. And we're at the point where no individual can keep track of the hundreds, the thousands, the hundred-thousand containers that are running. So, the only way, then, to do it is to be able to say, how can the system be smart? So, at the Commons yesterday we had sort of a tongue-in-cheek slide that said, the factory of the future will only have two employees, a man and a dog. The man's there to feed the dog, and the dog's in place to ensure the man doesn't go off and actually touch the equipment. And the point really being, how can we bring technology that can bring that to bare. So, one example of that is actually through our Core OS acquisition. The Core OS team was working on a technology called, operators. Which is to say, how can we take the human knowledge that exists. To take complex software that's built by third parties and bring that natively into the platform and then have the platform go and manage them on behalf of the actual customer itself. Now we've got over 60 companies building operators. And we've, in fact, taken entire open-shift platforms, put operators to work. So it's completely automated and self-managed. >> The trend of hybrid is hot. You mentioned it's here to stay. We would argue that it's going to be a gateway to multi-cloud. And as you look at the stacks that are developing and the choices, the old concept of a stack-- and Chris was on earlier, the CTO of CNCF. And I kind of agree with him. The old notion of stack is changing because if you've got a horizontal, scale-able cloud framework, you got specialty with machine learning at the top, you got a whole new type of stack model. But, multi-cloud is what the customers want choice for. Red Hat's been around long enough to know what the multi-vendor word was years ago. Multi-vendor choice, multi-cloud choice. Similar paradigms happening now. Modern version of multi-vendor is multi-cloud. How do you guys see the multi-cloud evolution? >> So we keep investing and helping to make that a reality. So, last week, we made some announcements around Open Shift dedicators. Open Shift dedicators is the Open Shift manage service, or AWS. Open Shift is available in ways where it can be self-managed directly by customers in a variety of environments. Directly run around any public cloud or open stack, or what you'd like environment. We have third-party partners. For example, DXC D-systems providing managed versions of Open Shift. And then you can have Red Hat managed Open Shift for you. For example, on AWS, or coming next year, with Microsoft. Through our partnership for Open Shift on Azure. So you as a customer now have, I think, more choice than you ever had before. In terms of adopting Dev-Ops or dealings with micro-services. But then having flexibility with regard to taking advantage of tools, services, that are coming from, pretty much, every corner of IT industry. >> You guys have a huge install base. You've been servicing customers for many, many years, decades. Highest level support. Take us through what a customer, a traditional Red Hat customer that might not be fully embracing the cloud in the past, now is on-boarding to the cloud. What's the playbook? What do you guys offer them? How do you engage with them? What's the playbook? Is it, just buy Open Shift? Is there a series of-- how do you guys bring that Red Hat core Lenux customer that's been on Prim. Maybe a little bit out of shadow IT in the cloud, saying, hey, we're doing additional transformation. What's the playbook? >> So, great question, John. So, first fall into the transformation might be an over-hyped term. Might be a peak hype at this point in time. But I think that the bigger point from my perspective is how do you move more dollars, more euros, more spend towards innovation. That's what every company is sort of trying to do. So, our focus is, how can we build on the investments that they've made? At this point in time, (mumbles) Lenux probably has 50,000 customers. So, pretty much, every customer, any size, around the world, is some kind of Lenux user. How can we then say, how can we now provide you a platform to have greater agility and be able to develop these services quicker? But, at the same time, not forget the things that enterprises care about. So, last week we had our first big security issue released on Kubernetes. The privilege escalation flaw. And so, obviously, we participate in the community. We had a bunch of folks, along with others addressing that, and then we rolled our patches. Our patch roll-out went back all the way to version 3.2, 3.2 shipped in early 2016. Now, the one hand you say, hey, everyone has Dev-Ops, why do you need to have a patch for something that's from 2016? That's because customers still aren't moving as quickly as we'd like. So, I just want to temper, there's an enthusiasm with regard to, everyone's quick, everything's lightning fast. At the same time, we often find-- and so, going back to your question, we often find some enterprises will just take a little bit longer, in reality to kind of get-- (both speaking at once) >> Work loads, they're not going to be moving overnight. >> That's right. >> So there's some legacy from those workloads. >> Right, right. And so, what we want to do is ensure, for example, the platform. So we talked about the security and lifecycle. But, is supporting these Cloud Native, next generation, stateless applications, but also established legacy stateful applications all on the same platform. And so the work we're doing is ensure we don't-- you know, it's like, leave no application behind. So, either the work that we'll do, for example, with Red Hat Innovation Labs. We help sort of move that forward. Or with GSIs, global integrated, real integrators to bring those to bare. >> Ashesh, wonder if we could drill a little bit. There's a lot of re-training that needs to happen. I've been reading lots on there. It's not, oh, I bring in this new Cloud Native team that's just going to totally re-vamp it and take my old admins and fire them all. That's not the reality. There's not enough training people to do all of this wonderful stuff. We see how many people are at this show. Explain what Red Hat's doing. Some of the training maturation, education paths. >> So we do a lot of work on the just core training aspect, learning services, get folks up to speed. There's work that happens, for example, in CNCF. But we do the same thing around certifications, around administering the systems, developing applications, and so on. So that's one aspect that needs to be learned. But then there's another aspect with regard to how do we get the actual platform, itself, to be smart enough to do things, that in the past, individual people had to do? So, for example, if we were to sort of play out the operator vision fully and through execution. In the past, perhaps you needed several database admins. But, if you had operators built for databases, which, for example couch, base, and mongo, and others, have built out. You can now run those within the platform and then that goes and manages on behalf. Now you don't need as many database admins, you free those people up now to build actual business innovation value. So, I think what we're trying to do is increasingly think about how we sort of, if you will, move value up the stack to free up resources to kind of work on building the next generation of services. And I think that's our business transformation work. >> And I think, even though digital transformation is totally over-hyped, which I agree, it actually is really relevant. Because I think the cloud wave, right now, has been certainly validated. But what's recognized is that, people have to re-imagine how they do their infrastructure. And IT is programmable. You're seeing the network. The holy trinity of IT is storage, networking, and compute. So, when you start thinking about that in a way that's cloud-based, it's going to require them to, I don't want to say re-platform, but really move to an operating-environment that's different, that they used to have. And I think that is real. We're seeing evidence of that. With that in mind, what's next? What do you guys got on the horizon? What's the momentum here? What's the most important story that you guys are telling here at Red Hat? And what's around the corner? >> Yeah, so obviously, I talked about a few announcements that we made right around Open Shift Dedicated and the upgrades around that. And things like, for example, supporting bring-your-own-cloud. So, if you got your own Amazon security credentials, we help support that. And manage that on your behalf, as well. We've talked this week about our support native, trying to introduce more server-less technologies into Open Shift. We announced the contribution of SCD to the Cloud Native Computing Foundation. So, continuing re-affirming our commitment to the community I think looking ahead, going forward, our focus next year will be on Open Shift four, which will be the next release of the platform. And there, it's all about how do we give you a much better install than upgrade experience than you've had before? How do we give you these clusters that you can deploy in multiple different environments and manage that better for you? How do we introduce operators to bring more and more automation to the platform? So, for the next few months our focus is on creating greater automation in the platform and then enabling more and more services to be able to run on that. >> Pretty exciting for you guys riding the wave, the cloud wave. Pretty dynamic. A lot of action. You've guys have had great success, congratulations. >> Thank you very much. >> You're fun to watch. The Cube coverage here. We're in Seattle for KubeCon 2018 and Cloud Native Con. I'm John your host. Stay with us for more coverage of day one of three days of coverage after this short break. We'll be right back. (upbeat music)

(techno music) >> Narrator: Live, from Barcelona, Spain, it's theCUBE, covering Cisco Live 2018. Brought to you by Cisco, Veeam, and theCUBE's ecosystem partners. (techno music) >> Okay, welcome back everyone. This is theCUBE's exclusive coverage. Day two. We're wrapping up the show here at Cisco Live 2018, in Europe. We're in Barcelona, Spain. The past two days we've been here. I'm John Furrier with Stu Miniman, talking to the most important people at Cisco, the top executives, some developers, and really kind of getting the lay of the land. It's the first time theCUBE has been at Cisco Live in its existence, so it's great to be here. Stu, Cisco Live, a lot of smart people. So it's great to have theCUBE. The Cube fits beautifully with Cisco Live because you've got people sharing, you have great, smart networking guys, but they are also doing applications. This is really an awesome opportunity because this is like the perfect storm for Cisco. This is an opportuity to galvanize their base, grow them into the new talent to move forward in this cloud edge world, where the network needs to be more intelligent. This is your wheelhouse. You have been covering this for a long time. >> So, John, yeah, I was looking forward to this. It's been years since I've attended Cisco Live in person. There is a term we haven't talked about a lot this week, but I think it fits. It's the digital transformation. And Cisco is in the midst of this transformation. I said in our open on day one, my barometer was going to be, look how is Cisco doing becoming a software company? Of course, things like IOS have been in the guts of what they did from networking, but being here in the DevNet Zone. DevNet, Susie Lee's team, really helping to drive some of that transformation. We had a great conversation with Rowan talking about the future. Talking about apps. Talking about so many of the different things that Cisco is doing to not just be boxes and ports. Hardware still an important piece. >> Yep. >> I'm actually concerned that maybe they have a little bit of that hardware holding them back a tiny bit because Cisco has skills there. They have lots of expertise. It might be mostly software, but even when they talk about things like collaboration there is hardware underneath a lot of that. >> Stu, Rowan Trollope, who is the SVP, general manager of the applications team, is the rising star. He is being promoted, and watch. This is a signal from Cisco. They recognize it. So, we heard from Andy Jassy at AWS re:Invent, there is the old guard meaning, they are talking about Oracle, and then the new guard, trying to obviously position themselves as the new guard to carry customers into the future. Rowan Trollope, on his keynote yesterday, who the big story cause the CEO wasn't here. He was the lead dog. So he's getting promoted. He was telling about the future. So the question I have for you is, as an analyst, is Cisco an old guard, or are they a new guard? Or, are they moving to be a new guard? What is your opinion? >> Yeah, too soon to say. Cisco was one of the four horsemen of the internet era. Absolutely, they should have a place going forward. But look, they're not one of the big public cloud providors. They don't sell a lot to the hyper-scale players. But, they have a very strong position in a lot of places. Still dominant in traditional networking. Do very well in collaboration. Have a lot of software pieces. They have made a number of acquisitions. The telecompany we had tracked before doing well inside of Cisco. AppD, lot of buzzwords going on. We got to learn a bunch about Spark this week, John. Heck, even little tidbits I got. There is these two colored globes sitting behind you. It's like, oh, it's Alexa apps. And there's been people doing developer labs this entire week. So Cisco, part of helping to educate and do that transformation. Other companies, like Pivotal, is a partner. Lots of partnerships. And not just the traditional infrastructure companies, but we heard about what they are doing with Google, with Apple, and others. So, I'm not ready to anoint Cisco as a winner in the new world. But, if multi-cloud, which I'd love to get your take on, What you think with the multi-cloud strategy is. But, Cisco at least has a right to be at the table. They've got strong customer relationships. Strong in the enterprise. Strong in service providers. >> But if Oracle is an old guard, then why isn't Cisco? I mean, Oracle is plumbing. They have these database deals. They're not going anywhere soon. So, you can make an argument that Oracle is not going to be displaced anytime soon, cause they have the massive deals. But a lot of people will say, and we even said, that Oracle's relevance is waning with new database growth happening outside the proprietary database. So, is Cisco relevant? >> Yeah, John. It's a good question. So for one piece, if you say okay how are they doing on the transition to becoming recurring revenue rather than boxes, they still have quite a ways to go. They are not far enough along that journey. But, my measuring stick was how much are they a software company? How much are they an infrastructure company? They're kind of straddling the line. They are moving up the stack. More than some of the other initiatives in the past. It's taken hold. Thousands of people, so I give them good marks, John. What's your take? >> I mean, I don't know. I think, here's my take on Cisco. Cisco knows the networking. You can't, like I was saying with Oracle, they're not going anywhere. No one is going to rip out Cisco and replace it. There's nothing else to replace it with. I mean, there is no other competition, really. The competition to Oracle, I mean Cisco, is not being on the right side of history. So to me, I think Cisco should be worried about one thing, making the bet wrong on architecture. So, they own the network. The other thing that people don't know about Cisco, that is a competitive advantage is, they know the edge of the network. They have been doing edge computing since it existed. So, okay sending it out to IOT is not a big deal, in my opinion. I think that is going to be an easy get for Cisco. Extending it to wireless, they have that with their deal with Jasper. That's interesting. That's going to be a game changer. But that's not going to be their problem. Wireless, human, cars, that's the new edge. That's just an extension for Cisco. That is a major advantage. So competitively speaking, I think that is a real point that they are going to really nail home that a lot of people don't understand. The second thing is that their DevNet program is showing that they're upgrading and advancing their capabilities up the stack and bringing along with them their entire developer consistencies, which were essentially network engineers. So, they were once the rock stars, those network engineers, of any enterprise. You go into any enterprise you say, the network engineers, they ran the show. Now, the threat is coming from alpha perspective from developers. So now you have this kind of dynamic going on Stu, where the network engineers need to move up the stack to meet the new developers, and that is where the rubbing is going on, right. That's where the action is. That's what DevNet's doing. They're doing a masterful job, in my opinion. They are not over driving, not overplaying their hand. They are in the cloud native rule with DevNet Create. So I think their best move is to just continue to march down that path, but they got to own the IOT edge. Without the IOT edge, Cisco could crumble. >> Yeah, so a couple comments on that, John. One, IOT, Cisco started messaging IOT really early, and they've gone through a couple of iterations, so that what they're talking about IOT wasn't what they were talking about a few years ago. I like their story much better today. Absolutely, both from a wireless standpoint, they have got the hardware gear like Meraki, they talked on stage. From the software standpoint, like Jasper. One of the areas we got feedback from the community, John, they are talking about containers and Kubernetes, sure. They're not involved with serverless yet. And that is a blindness. Is it something that the big public cloud's are going to do there? >> Well I have an opinion on that. >> They're, I'm sorry? >> I have an opinion on that. >> Okay. >> Cisco is running billion dollar partnerships. They're doing billions of dollars in revenue. So I think you can't really judge them there by their participation in these open source projects yet. I think they've got to bring something to the party quickly. I think it's too early to tell, I would agree with you on that point. On this piece, they've got to go to open source. And they've got to figure out a way to do it in a way that is not distracting from the core mission. If I am Cisco, if I'm advising the CEO, I'm like, march with the network as the value, maximize the software play, and don't blow off open source. They cannot blow off open source. Are they brilliant at open source right now? Outside of Lew Tucker, who do we see? >> Look, no. I mean, from a network standpoint, Cisco has been involved across lots of projects, not just open stack containers. We've talked about what they are doing with Kubernetes and Istio. >> Give them a grade, open source, give them a grade. A, B, C, or D, or F? >> You know, I tell you at least a strong B. >> Okay, that's decent. >> Yeah, I mean look, they are not monetizing open source. They're not rallying around the flag. They are doing great with developers, which John, I guess we say, is it contributing for contributing sake or how does it fit in the business model? We did a couple of interviews here where it said, no open source, we're not negative on it. They're not pushing against public cloud. They're not against these things. It just doesn't fit as much into their environment. >> I think the multi-cloud thing, well getting back to you're question about containers. So containers are being commoditized. Red Hat just bought Core OS. Docker's Docker. Docker's got a business model challenge. We've reported on that, Stu. And we're doing a feature report on it now. And so what are they going to do? But still, container is a goodness. People like containers. Is it super complicated? Not really. Is Kubernetes strategic and important? Yes, that's obvious. So the service mesh is interesting to me. And I think the net devops positioning that they announced here, Cisco is bringing this devops culture to the networking world. They are kind of creating a new devops ethos at a networking layer. I think that's going to be a really, really big deal. And that is either going to be a go big or go home situation. It is either going to work like a charm, or it's going to fail miserably. So, what do you think? I mean the smell, it lines up with Istio, it lines up with Service Mesh, programmable infrastructures, managing micro services. I mean, it kind of hangs together, Stu. What do you think? >> Yeah, I mean, John, it goes along with the whole trend we have been seeing. The people that were managing the network can't be managing devices, or even groups of devices. Intent based networking is one of the big items coming into here. It's how do I let the machine learning, the programmability help me in this environment because it is only going to get more complicated. The edge you talked about is critical. IOT keeps growing. And it's not something that people alone can do, it needs to be people plus machines. And I've seen nice maturation of how Cisco does this. Cisco, to be critical on Cisco for the last decade, is thy have thrived in complexity. And I think they are trying to get over that some and shift their model to more of a softer model. >> Well, Stu, I think you nailed that this. So here's my take. Software model allows them to scale. With machine learning, they can do what Facebook and Google has done. So if you go to Google, for instance, how they manage their data center, they have site reliability engineers. They have changed the IT model to scale the number of machines that they have. The number of devices that are coming on the network cannot be physically managed by people. So this means machine learning and software has to automate. That is Cisco's opportuity. I'm not seeing it clearly right now, but if that's what they're talking about, that to me will be the tell sign. If Cisco can create a site reliability engine, like what Google did for networks, that's a game changer. Alright Stu, final thoughts. Let's go through, let's riff on what we saw here. Obviously Barcelona great city. The weather's been phenomenal. It's been really great. Good food, good tapas. But Cisco, good vibe. Cube in the DevNet Zone, it's been really interesting to watch. People love the labs. It's very chill and relaxed, but very active. The keynote looking forward, not looking back. Notable point, the CEO wasn't here. So that to me-- >> It's the end of the quarter and he was just at Davos, and there is a bunch there. He didn't come last year either. >> John: Okay. >> But Chuck will be at the Orlando show. Hoping we'll have him on theCUBE when we go there. We're going to be at the Orlando show. We've got theCUBE at the DevNet Create show again. And John, chill I think was the right word. And part of me is wondering, is it because we are here in Barcelona and it is just a relaxed atmosphere of a city. I've really enjoyed it this week. Or, network people, it used to be a little bit uptight. I mean, it's the risk and fear are things that kind of ruled in networking before. And people seemed a little bit more chill here. >> Pros and cons, Stu. Or observations that were good and not so good? Observations to me were, on the good side, was a lot of activity in the DevNet Zone. A lot of energy in the hallway, and in Barcelona wise. There was a lot of European flavor. The signal I thought was good was the keynote was packed. You and I thought it might be empty, right. But people strolled in. They packed every seat. The other area is that you can just tell people were interested in the new direction. The critical analysis to me would be, I didn't hear enough data driven. I want to see more data driven, but I didn't want to hear AI is changing the world. I want to see real, practical examples of data-driven impact to data center and I wanted to see more meat on the bone on multicloud. Because I didn't really see much there, I just heard about it. It was almost like a, "we're going there," not a lot of data driven, not a lot of multicloud. Outside of that, I thought it was really, really a great conference. >> And John, we had some phenomenal guests here. So on the data driven piece, Michelle Dennedy, the Chief Privacy Officer, really good piece and she said, oh, you guys are missing it if you didn't hear the data-driven. And she drove home in the interview with us how Cisco is involved there. So, John, there is a lot going on. Cisco is a big company. Big show. There is a lot we are not going to be able to get. Reaz Rehan, got the IOT piece, seeing some new players. Really helping to shift along this transition. Love Susie Lee's discussion about the four year transformation that we are talking. And Rowan, strong executive, good bench at Cisco. Stock has been up, like most of the tech stocks the last few months. >> I mean, we forgot to mention that, good point, Stu. New sheriff in town on IOT, that was a great interview. Again, Susie's at DevNet's hit a home run here. She's got a great group she's developing. Awesome stuff. >> So last thing, John. If Chuck Robbins gave you a call and said, Hey John, I've got that 10, 20, 30 billion dollars that I might be able to play with. Any final advice for him? >> I would really sure up the collab stuff. I think there is a distraction there from the sense of that I get why its developing. But if you use WebEx or all these tools, you're biased. You don't understand, it's the tools you use. You're just going to use it. I think that is a great data. And I think that the collab apps, if you look at it not as a software play, but as an IOT edge device, data-driven device. That's a good play. So I like the direction. I would throw a lot of dough at the collab and make that an IOT edge feature. Cause they can cross connect great data from WebEx to Spark. And I think Spark feels like an app. I want to see, it's not an app. It's a platform. >> Look, it's a messy space. Who leads in those spaces tends to be a lot more the consumer companies that did this. Cisco killed most of their consumer stuff. Then they did, after they had Flip in the set top boxes. So very different Cisco. What assets do they have? >> But to answer your question, Stu, what I would say, I would say Chuck, own the edge. This is a strategic imperative. I would throw the kitchen sink at owning the edge of the network. That means from the core to the edge, and I'd push that edge all the way to the wearables. All the way to the implants in your brain in the future. Own it end to end. Lock that down. Make it dynamic. Make it programmable. That is a holy grail moment and to me, lock it down. And everything will fall into place. You'll have cloud traction. You'll have app traction. Everything will happen. >> And they don't need to be the owner of the public cloud to be successful in what you said, John. So good strategy, I like that. >> Alright, theCUBE, with all the strategy for the CEO, Chuck Robbins, who's watching. Chuck, good to see you. Thanks for having us at Cisco Live. Stu, great analysis. I want to thank all the guests, thank the crew here. Tony Day and the team, and Brendan and Brian, great job. And all the people back home at theCUBE network and theCUBE network operating center in Palo Alto and Boston. This is live coverage. This is our wrap-up from Barcelona, Spain. Cube is calling it a day here at Cisco Live 2018 in Europe. Thanks for watching. (techno music)