>> [Voiceover] Live, from Los Angeles, it's theCUBE. Covering Open Source Summit, North America 2017. Brought to you by the Linux Foundation, and Red Hat.>> Hello everyone, welcome back to our special Cube live coverage of Linux Foundation's Open Source Summit North America here in LA, I'm John Furrier your co-host with Stu Mitiman. Our next guest is Christine Corbett Moran, Ph.D. at astronomy, astrophysics post-doctoral fellow at Caltech.>> That's right, it's a mouthful.>> Welcome to theCUBE, a mouthful but you're also keynoting, gave one of the talks opening day today after Jim Zemlin, on tech and culture and politics.>> That's right, yeah.>> Which I thought was fantastic. A lot of great notes there. Connect the dots for us metaphorically speaking, between Caltech and tech and culture. Why did you take that theme?>> Sure. So I've been involved in programming since I was an undergraduate in college. I studied computer science and always attending more and more conferences. hacker cons, security conferences, that sort of stuff. Very early on what attracted me to technology was not just the nitty gritty nuts and bolts of being able to solve a hard technical problem That was a lot of fun, but also the impact that it could have. So even as I went on a very academic track, I continued to make open source contributions. Really seeking that kind of cultural impact. And it wasn't something that I was real vocal about. Talking about. More talking about the technology side of things than the politics side of things. But in the past few years, I think with the rise of fake news, with the rise of various sorts of societal problems that we're seeing as a consequence of technology, I decided I was going to try to speak more to that end of things. So that we can focus on that as a technology community on what are we going to do with this enormous power that we have.>> And looking at that, a couple of direct questions for you, it was awesome talk. You get a lot in there. You were riffing some good stuff there with Jim as well. But you had made a comment that you originally wanted to be lawyer, you went to MIT, and you sort of got pulled in to the dark side>> That's right, yeah.>> In programming. As a former computer scientist myself, what got the bug take us through that moment. Was it you just started coding and said damn I love coding? What was the moment?>> Sure, so I was always talented in math and science. That was part of the reason why I was admitted to MIT and chose to go there. My late father was a lawyer. I didn't really have an example of a technologist in my life. So, to me, career wise I was going to be a lawyer, but I was interested in technology. What kind of lawyer is that? Patent attorney. So that was my career path. MIT, some sort of engineering, then a patent attorney. I got to MIT and realized I didn't have to be a attorney. I could just do the fun stuff. For some people that's the fun part. For me it ended up being when I took my first computer science class. Something that was fun, that I was good at, and that I really got addicted to kind of the feedback loop of you always have a problem you're trying to solve. It doesn't work, it doesn't work. Then you get it to work and then it's great for a minute and then there's a new problem to solve.>> That's a great story. I think it was very inspirational. A lot of folks of watching will be inspired by that. The other thing that inspired me in the key note was your comment about code and culture.>> [Christine] Yeah.>> I love this notion that code is now at a point where open source is a global phenomenon. You mentioned Earth and space.>> [Christine] Yeah.>> You know and all this sort of space is now Linux based now. But coding can shape culture. Explain what you mean by that, because I think it's one of those things that people might not see happening right now, but it is happening. You starting to see the more inclusionary roles and the communities are changing. Code is not just a tech thing. Explain what you mean by code-shaping culture.>> Well we can already that in terms of changing corporate culture. So, for example, 10 or 15, 20 years ago it might be inconceivable to make contributions that might benefit your corporate competitor. And we all have corporate competitors whether that's a nation, the US having competitors. Whether that's your local sports rivalry. We all have competitors, but open source has really shown that you're relying on things that you as a group, no matter what entity you are, you can't do as much as you can if you share your contributions and benefit from people around the globe. So that's one big way I've seen corporate culture in just every day culture change that people have recognized. Whether it's science, or corporate success, you can't do it alone. There's no lone genius. You really have to do it as a community.>> As a collective too you mentioned some of the ruling class and you kind of referring to not ruling class and open source, but also politics. In that gerrymandering was a word you used. We don't hear that often at conferences, but the idea of having more people exposed creates more data. Talk about what you mean by that because this is interesting. This truly is a democratization opportunity.>> [Christine] Absolutely.>> If not handled properly could go away.>> Yeah, I think am a little, I don't know if there's any Game of Thrones fans out there, but you know at some point this season and previous seasons you know Daenerys Targaryen is there and they're like well if you do this you're going to be the same evil person just new face. I think there's a risk of that in the open source community that if it ends up just being a few people it's the same oligarchy. The same sort of corruption just a different face to it. I don't think open source will go that way just based on the people that I've met in the community. It is something that we actively have to guard against and make sure that that we have as many people contributing to open source so that it's not just a few people who are capable of changing the world and have the power to decide whether it's going to be A or B, but as many people as possible.>> Christine, the kind of monetization of open source is always an interesting topic at these kind of shows. You had an interesting piece talking about young people contributing. You know contributing to open source. It's not just oh yeah do it for free and expect them to do it. Same thing in academia a lot of times. Like oh hey, you're going to do that research and participate and write papers and you know money is got to come somewhere to help fund this. How does kind of the money fit into this whole discussion of open source?>> So I think that's been one of the big successes of open source and we heard that from Jim as well today. It isn't you know some sort of unattainable in terms of achieving value for society. When you do something of value, money is a reward for that. The only question is how to distribute that award effectively to the community. What I see sometimes in the community is there's this myth of everyone in open source getting involved for just the fun of it and there's a huge amount of that. I have done a bunch of contributions for free on the side, but I've always in the end gotten some sort monetary reward for that down the line. And someone talked today about that makes you more employable, et cetera. That has left me with the time and freedom to continue that development. I think it's a risk that as a young person who is going into debt for college to not realize that that monetary reward will come or have it be so out of sync with their current life situation that they're unable to get the time to develop the skills. So, I don't think that money is a primary motivating factor for most people in the community, but certainly as Linus said today as well. When you don't have to worry about money that's when you do the really cool nitty-gritty things that might be a risk that then grow to be that next big project.>> It's an interesting comment you made about the US how they couldn't do potentially Linux if it wasn't in the US. It opens up your eyes and you say hmm we got to do better.>> Yeah.>> And so that brings up the whole notion of the radical comment of open source has always been kind of radical and then you know when I was growing up it was a tier two alternative to the big guys. Now it's tier one. I think the stakes are higher and the thing I'd like you to get your comment or reaction to is how does the community take it to the next level when it's bigger than the United States. You have China saying no more ICOs, no more virtual currencies. That's a potential issue there's a data point of many other things that can be on the global scale. Security, the Equifax hack, identity theft, truth in communities is now an issue, and there's more projects more than ever. So I made a comment on Twitter. Whose shoulders do we stand on in the expression of standing on the shoulders before you.>> [Christine] Yeah, you're standing on a sea.>> So it's a discovery challenge of what do we do and how do we get to the truth. What's your thoughts on that?>> That is a large question. I don't know if I can answer it in the short amount of time. So to break it down a little bit. One of the issues is that we're in this global society and we have different portions trying to regulate what's next in technology. For example, China with the ICOs, et cetera. One of the phrases I used in my talk was that the math was on the people's side and I think it is the case still with a lot of the technologies that are distributed. It's very hard for one particular government, or nation state, to say hey we're going to put this back in the box. It's Pandora's box. It's out in the open. So that's a challenge as well for China and other people, the US. If you have some harmful scenario, how to actually regulate that. I don't know how that's going to work out moving forward. I think it is the case in our community how to go to the next level, which is another point that you brought up. One thing that Linus also brought up today, is one of the reasons why it's great to collaborate with corporations is that often they put kind of the finishing touches on a product to really make it to the level that people can engage with it easily. That kind of on ramping to new technology is very easy and that's because of corporations is very incentivized monetarily to do that, whereas the open source community isn't necessarily incentivized to do that. Moreover, a lot of that work that final 1% of a project for the polish is so much more difficult. It's not the fun technical element. So a lot of the open source contributors, myself included, aren't necessarily very excited about that. However, what we saw in Signal, which is a product that it is a non-profit it is something that isn't necessarily for corporate gain, but that final polish and making it very usable did mean that a lot more people are using the product. So in terms of we as a community I think we have to figure out how keeping our radical governance structure, how to get more and more projects to have that final polish. And that'll really take the whole community.>> Let them benefit from it in a way that they're comfortable with now it's not a proprietary lock and it's more of only 10% of most of the applications are uniquely differentiated with open source. Question kind of philosophic thought experiment, or just philosophical question, I'll say astronomy and astrophysics is an interesting background. You've got a world of connected devices, the IoT, Internet of Things, includes people. So, you know I'm sitting there looking at the stars, oh that's the Apache Project, lots of stars in that one. You have these constellations of communities, if you will out there to kind of use the metaphor. And then you got astrophysics, the Milky Way, a lot of gravity around me. You almost take a metaphor talks to how communities work. So let's get your thoughts. How does astrophysics and astronomy relate to some of the dynamics in how self-governing things work?>> I'd love to see that visualization by the way, of the Apache Project and the Milky Way,>> [John] Which one's the Big Dipper?>> That sounds gorgeous, you guys should definitely pursue that.>> John you're going to find something at Caltech, you know our next fellowship.>> Argued who always did the Big Dipper or not, but you know.>> I think some of the challenges are similar in the sciences in that people initially get into it because it's something they're curious about. It's something they love and that's an innate human instinct. People have always gazed up at the stars. People have always wondered how things work. How your computer works? You know let me figure that out. That said, ultimately, they need to eat and feed their families and that sort of stuff. And we often see in the astrophysics community incredibly talented people at some stage in their career leaving for some sort of corporate job. And retaining talent is difficult because a lot of people are forced to move around the globe, to different centers in academia, and that lifestyle can be difficult. The pay often isn't as rewarding as it could be. So to make some sort of parallel between that community and the open source community, retaining talent in open source, if you want people to not necessarily work in open source under Microsoft, under a certain corporation only, but to kind of work more generally. That is something that ultimately, we have to distribute the rewards from that to the community.>> It's kind of interesting. The way I always thought the role of the corporation and open source was always trying to change the game. You know, you mentioned gerrymandering. The old model was we got to influence a slow that down so that we can control it.>> So John we've had people around the globe and even that have made it to space on theCUBE before. I don't know that we've ever had anybody that's been to the South Pole before on theCUBE. So Christine, maybe tell us a little about how's technology you know working in the South Pole and what can you tell our audience about it?>> Sure. So I spent 10 and half months at the South Pole. Not just Antarctica, but literally the middle of the continent, the geographic South Pole. There the US has a research base that houses up to about 200 people during the austral summer months when it's warm that is maybe minus 20 degrees or so. During the cold winter months, it gets completely dark and planes have a very difficult time coming in and out so they close off the station to a skeleton crew to keep the science experiments down there running. There are several astrophysical experiments, several telescopes, as well as many research projects, and that skeleton crew was what I was a part of. 46 people and I was tasked with running the telescope down there and looking at some of the echoes of the Big Bang. And I was basically a telescope doctor. So I was on call much like a sys-admin might be. I was responsible for the kind of IT support for the telescope, but also just physical, something physically broke, kind of replacing that. And that meant I could be woken up in the middle of night because of some kind of package update issue or anything like that and I'd have to hike out in minus a 100 degrees to fix this, sometimes. Oftentimes, there was IT support on the station so we did have internet running to the telescope which was about a kilometer away. It took me anywhere from 20 to 30 minutes to walk out there. So if it didn't require on-site support sometimes I could do the work in my pajamas to kind of fix that. So it was a kind of traditional computer support role in a very untraditional environment.>> That's an IoT device isn't it.>> Yeah.>> Stu and I are always interested in the younger generation as we both have kids who are growing up in this new digital culture. What's your feeling in terms of the younger generation that are coming up because people going to school now, digital natives, courseware, online isn't always the answer, people learn differently. Your thoughts on onboarding the younger generation and for the inclusion piece which is super important whether it's women in tech and/or just people just getting more people into computer science. What are some of things that you see happening that excite you and what are some of the things that get you concerned?>> Yeah, so I had the chance I mentioned a little in my talk to teach 12 high school students how to computer program this summer. Some of them have been through computer programming classes at their colleges, or at their high schools, some not. What I saw when I was in high school was a huge variety of competence in the high school teachers that I had. Some were amazing and inspiring. Others because in the US you need a degree in education, but not necessarily a degree in the field that you're teaching. I think that there's a huge lack of people capable of teaching the next generation who are working at the high school level. It's not that there's a huge lack of people who are capable, kind of anyone at this conference could sit down and help a high schooler get motivated and self-study. So I think teacher training is something that I'm concerned about. In terms of things I'm very excited about, we're not quite there yet with the online courses, but the ability to acquire that knowledge online is very, very exciting. In addition, I think we're waking up as a society to the fact that four year college isn't necessarily the best preparation for every single field. For some fields it's very useful. For other fields, particularly engineering, maybe even computer science engineering, apprenticeships or practical experience could be as valuable if not more valuable for less expense. So I'm excited about new initiatives, these coding bootcamps. I think there's a difficulty in regulation in that you don't know for a new coding bootcamp. Is it just trying to get people's money? Is it really going to help their careers? So we're in a very frothy time there, but I think ultimately how it will shake out is it's going to help people enter technology jobs quicker.>> You know there's a percentage of jobs that aren't even invented yet. So there's AI. You see self-driving cars. These things are easy indicators that hey society's changing.>> Yeah. And it's also good to be helpful for a professionals like us, older professionals who want to keep up in this ever growing field and I don't necessarily want to go back for a second Ph.D, but I'll absolutely take an online course in something I didn't see in my undergrad.>> I mean you can get immersed in anything these days online. It's great, there's a lot of community behind it. Christine thanks so much for sharing. Congratulations on a great keynote. Thanks for spending some time with us.>> [Christine] Yeah, thanks for having me.>> It's theCUBE live coverage here in LA for Open Source Summit in North America. I'm John Furrier, Stu Miniman, and we'll be right back with more live coverage after this short break.

(upbeat music) >> Narrator: Live from Los Angeles it's The Cube covering Open Source Summit North America 2017. Brought to you by the Lennox Foundation and Red Hat. >> Welcome back, everyone. Live in Los Angeles for The Cube's exclusive coverage of the Open Source Summit North America. I'm John Furrier, your host, with my co-host, Stu Miniman. Our next guest is Elaine Yeung, @egsy on Twitter, check her out. Student at Holberton School? >> At Holberton School. >> Holberton School. >> And that's in San Francisco? >> I'm like reffing the school right here. (laughs) >> Looking good. You look great, so. Open Source is a new generation. It's going to go from 64 million libraries to 400 million by 2026. New developers are coming in. It's a whole new vibe. >> Elaine: Right. >> What's your take on this, looking at this industry right now? Looking at all this old, the old guard, the new guard's coming in, a lot of cool things happening. Apple's new ARKit was announced today. You saw VR and ARs booming, multimedia. >> Elaine: Got that newer home button. Right, like I-- >> It's just killer stuff happening. >> Stu: (laughs) >> I mean, one of the reason why I wanted to go into tech, and this is why I, like, when I told them that I applied to Holberton School, was that I really think at whatever next social revolution we have, technology is going to be somehow interval to it. It's probably not even, like, an existing technology right now. And, as someone who's just, like, social justice-minded, I wanted to be able to contribute in that way, so. >> John: Yeah. >> And develop a skillset that way. >> Well, we saw the keynote, Christine Corbett Moran, was talking really hardcore about code driving culture. This is happening. >> Elaine: Right. So this is not, like, you know, maybe going to happen, we're starting to see it. We're starting to see the culture being shaped by code. And notions of ruling classes and elites potentially becoming democratized 100% because now software, the guys and gals doing it are acting on it and they have a mindset-- >> Elaine: Right. >> That come from a community. So this is interesting dynamic. As you look at that, do you think that's closer to reality? Where in your mind's eye do you see it? 'Cause you're in the front lines. You're young, a student, you're immersed in that, in all the action. I wish I was in your position and all these great AI libraries. You got TensorFlow from Google, you have all this goodness-- >> Elaine: Right. >> Kind of coming in, I mean-- >> So you're, so let me make sure I am hearing your question right. So, you're asking, like, how do I feel about the democratization of, like, educ-- >> John: Yeah, yeah. Do you feel it? Are you there? Is it happening faster? >> Well, I mean, things are happening faster. I mean, I didn't have any idea of, like, how to use a terminal before January. I didn't know, like, I didn't know my way around Lennox or GitHub, or how to push a commit, (laughs) until I started at Holberton School, so. In that sense, I'm actually experiencing this democratization of-- >> John: Yeah. >> Of education. The whole, like, reason I'm able to go to this school is because they actually invest in the students first, and we don't have to pay tuition when we enroll. It's only after we are hired or actually, until we have a job, and then we do an income-share agreement. So, like, it's really-- >> John: That's cool. >> It's really cool to have, like, a school where they're basically saying, like, "We trust in the education that we're going to give you "so strongly that you're not going to pay up front. >> John: Yeah. >> "Because we know you're going to get a solid job and "you'll pay us at that point-- >> John: Takes a lot of pressure off, too. >> Yeah. >> John: 'Cause then you don't have to worry about that overhang. >> Exactly! I wrote about that in my essay as well. Yeah, just, like because who wants to, like, worry about student debt, like, while you're studying? So, now I can fully focus on learning C, learning Python (laughs) (mumbles) and stuff. >> Alright, what's the coolest thing that you've done, that's cool, that you've gotten, like, motivated on 'cause you're getting your hands dirty, you get the addiction. >> Stu: (laughs) >> Take us through the day in the life of like, "Wow, this is a killer." >> Elaine: I don't know. Normally, (laughs) I'm just kind of a cool person, so I feel like everything I-- no, no. (laughs) >> John: That's a good, that's the best answer we heard. >> (laughs) Okay, so we had a battle, a rap battle, at my school of programming languages. And so, I wrote a rap about Bash scripts and (laughs) that is somewhere on the internet. And, I'm pretty sure that's, like, one of the coolest things. And actually, coming out here, one of my school leaders, Sylvain, he told me, he was like, "You should actually put that, "like, pretty, like, front and center on your "like, LinkedIn." Or whatever, my profile. And what was cool, was when I meet Linus yesterday, someone who had seen my rap was there and it's almost like it was, like, set up because he was like, "Oh, are you the one "that was rapping Bash?" And, I was like, "Well, why yes, that was me." (laughs) >> John: (laughs) >> And then Linus said it was like, what did he say? He was like, "Oh, that's like Weird Al level." Like, just the fact that I would make up a rap about Bash Scripts. (laughs) >> John: That's so cool. So, is that on your Twitter handle? Can we find that on your Twitter handle? >> Yes, you can. I will-- >> Okay, E-G-S-Y. >> Yes. >> So, Elaine, you won an award to be able to come to this show. What's your take been on the show so far? What was exciting about you? And, what's your experience been so far? >> To come to the Summit. >> Stu: Yeah. >> Well, so, when I was in education as a dean, we did a lot of backwards planning. And so, I think for me, like, that's just sort of (claps hands). I was looking into the future, and I knew that in October I would need to, like, start looking for an internship. And so, one of my hopes coming out here was that I would be able to expand my network. And so, like that has been already, like that has happened like more than I even expected in terms of being able to meet new people, come out here and just, like, learn new things, but also just like hear from all these, everyone's experience in the industry. Everyone's been just super awesome (laughs) and super positive here. >> Yeah. We usually find, especially at the Open Source shows, almost everyone's hiring. You know, there's huge demand for software developers. Maybe tell us a little bit about Holberton school, you know, and how they're helping, you know, ramp people up and be ready for kind of this world? >> Yeah. So, it's a two-year higher education alternative, and it is nine months of programming. So, we do, and that's split up into three months low-level, so we actually we did C, where we, you know, programmed our own shell, we programmed printf. Then after that we followed with high-levels. So we studied Python, and now we're in our CIS Admin track. So we're finishing out the last three months. And, like, throughout it there's been a little bit, like, intermix. Like, we did binary trees a couple weeks ago, and so that was back in C. And so, I love it when they're, like, throwing, like, C at us when we've been doing Python for a couple weeks, and I'm like, "Dammit, I have to put semicolons (laughs) >> John: (laughs) >> "And start compiling. "Why do we have to compile this?" Oh, anyway, so, offtrack. Okay, so after those nine months, and then it's a six month internship, and after that it's nine months of specialization. And so there's different spec-- you can specialize in high-level, low-level, they'll work with you in whatever you, whatever the student, their interests are in. And you can do that either full-time student or do it part-time. Which most of the students that are in the first batch that started in January 2016, they're, most of them are, like, still working, are still working, and then they're doing their nine month specialization as, like, part-time students. >> Final question for you, Elaine. Share your personal thoughts on, as you're immersed in the coding and learning, you see the community, you meet some great people here, network expanding, what are you excited about going forward? As you look out there, as you finish it up and getting involved, what's exciting to you in the world ahead of you? What do you think you're going to jump into? What's popping out and revealing itself to you? >> I think coming to the conference and hearing Jim speak about just how diversity is important and also hearing from multiple speakers and sessions about the importance of collaboration and contributions, I just feel like Lennox and Open Source, this whole movement is just a really, it's a step in the right direction, I believe. And it's just, I think the recognition that by being diverse that we are going to be stronger for it, that is super exciting to me. >> John: Yeah. >> Yeah, and I just hope to be able to-- >> John: Yeah (mumbles) >> I mean, I know I'm going to be able to add to that soon. (laughs) >> Well, you certainly are. Thanks for coming on The Cube. Congratulations on your success. Thanks for coming, appreciate it. >> Elaine: Thank you, thank you. >> And this is The Cube coverage, live in LA, for Open Source Summit North America. I'm John Furrier, Stu Miniman. More live coverage after this short break. (upbeat music)

(gentle music) >> Announcer: Live, from Los Angeles, it's theCUBE, covering Open Source Summit, North America, 2017, brought to you by the Linux Foundation and Red Hat. >> Okay welcome back, and we're live here in Los Angeles, this is theCUBE's exclusive coverage of the Linux Foundation's Open Source Summit North America. I'm John Furrier, your host with my co-host Stu Miniman. Our next guest is Chris Aniszczyk, who's the COO, Chief Operating Officer of the CNCF, the Cloud Native Compute Foundation, formerly Cube-Con, Cloud Native Foundation, all rolled into the most popular Linux Foundation project right now, very fashionable, cloud native, running on native clouds, Chris welcome back to theCUBE, good to see you. >> Awesome, it's been a while, great to be back. >> So you are the Chief Operating Officer of the hottest project, to me at least, in the Foundation. Not the most important, because there's a lot of really important, everything's important, you don't pick a favorite child, but, if one's trending, the CNCF is certainly trending, it's got the most sponsors, it's got the most participants, there's so much action going on, there's so much change and opportunity, around Kubernetes, around containers, around writing cloud-native applications. You've guys have really put together a nice foundation around that, nice group, congratulations. >> Thank you. >> Take a step back and explain to us, what the hell is the CNCF? We know what it is, we were there present at creation, but it's super-important, it's growing in relevance every day. Take a minute to explain. >> So I mean, you know, CNCF is all about providing a neutral home for cloud-native technology, and it's been about almost two years since our first board meeting and the idea was, there's a certain set of technology out there that are essentially micro-service-based, that live in containers that are centrally orchestrated by some process, right, that's essentially what we mean when we say cloud-native, right, and CNCF was seeded with Kubernetes as its first project, and as we've seen over the last couple of years, Kubernetes has grown quite well, they have a large community, diverse contributor base, and have done kind of extremely well. They're one of actually the fastest, highest velocity open source projects out there, maybe only, compared to the kernel is maybe a little bit faster but it's just great to kind of see it growing. >> Why is it so hot right now? What's the catalyst? >> So I think if we kind of step back and we look at the trends in industry, right, more and more companies are becoming software companies, you know, folks like John Deere, building IoT platforms. You need some type of infrastructure to run this stuff, and especially at scale. You know, imagine sensors in every tractor, farm or in every vehicle, you're going to need serious infrastructure and cloud native really is a way to scale those type of infrastructure needs and so this is kind of I think why you're seeing a lot of interest being piqued in CNCF-related technology. >> A lot of prototypes too. >> Chris, see you know, it's interesting, I look back you know, a year or two ago, and it was like, oh, it was like the orchestration wars, it was Swarm versus Mesos, and now I look at it in the last year it's like, wait, Mesos fully embracing it, MesosCon they're going to be talking about how Mesos is the best place to you know, Kubernetes on DCOS, containerd now part of the container wars, so the container wars, we're going to talk about OCI, you know, Amazon, Microsoft, of course Google, out there at the beginning. Is there anybody that's not on board that Kubernetes... >> I mean we really have the top five cloud providers in the world, depending on what metrics you look at, part of CNCF, you know there's some others out there that still aren't fully part of the family. Hopefully if you stay tuned over the next week or so you may hear some announcements coming from CNCF of other large cloudy-type companies joining the family. >> Every week there's a new platinum sponsor (Chris laughs) and you guys are getting a check every week it seems. >> To me it's great to see companies stepping up to the play and actually sustaining open source foundations that are critical to the actual business, and I think that it's great to see this involvement. So to me I'm personally thrilled, 'cause otherwise we'd be in a situation where if the top five cloud providers in the world weren't part of CNCF, maybe they'd be trying to do their own initiative, so it's great that we have these companies at the table, and all trying to build, you know, find their own pathway to cloud-native. >> You guys are hyper-growth right now, and you're new too, you're still kind of you know, >> Chris: Less than two years old! >> I mean it's amazing. So I want to put a little Jim Zemlin test to you, (Chris laughs) which is, in his keynote today he talked about, this is the big kind of event for the whole community of open source to come together, and again, you're talking 64 million libraries out there now. He projected by 2026, 400 million, it literally is a hockey stick growth, so you got growth there, so he talked about four things, my summary. Project health, so healthiness, sustainability, secure code, training, new members. What's your strategy re those four things? Keeping the CNCF healthy, you don't eat too much and choke on all of that growth... >> Yeah, so in terms of projects, we have a very unique governance structure in place when we designed CNCF. So we kind of have this independent technical operating committee, we kind of jokingly refer to them as a technical supreme court, but they are made up of people from, kind of luminaries in the container cloud-native space, they're from competing companies too, but they try to really wear an independent hat and make sure that we're, projects that we're accepting are high quality, are a good fit for the foundation, and so it's actually fairly hard to get a project in CNCF, 'cause it really requires the blessing of this TOC. So, even though we have 10 projects now in about two years, I think that's about a project every two months, which is an okay pace. The other unique thing that we're doing is we have different levels of projects, we have inception, incubation and graduation. Right now, we have no graduated projects in CNCF, believe it or not, Kubernetes has not graduated yet because they're still finalizing their governance for the project and they're almost there. Once they do that, they'll most likely graduate. >> They'll walk cap and gown all nine yards, eh? >> Exactly, it'll be great. December we'll have the cap and gown ceremony. But the other unique thing is we're not, we do annual kind of reviews for some of our projects, certain levels will be annually reviewed, and if they're not longer healthy or a good fit, we're okay archiving them, or telling, you know, telling them you know, maybe you're not a good fit anymore for the foundation, or you know. And so I think you have to have a process in place where sometimes you do have to move things to the attic. >> Do you have a high bar on the projects >> The initial bar is extremely, extremely high, and I think over time, we may see some projects that get recycled or moved to the attic, or maybe they maybe merged together, we'll see, so we're thinking about this already, so... >> John: Okay, security? >> Security, so we, all projects in CNCF that graduate have to partake in the core infrastructures best practices badging program, so if the CII has this great effort that is basically helping to ensure projects meet a minimal level of best practices that make their projects secure. You know, it doesn't give you like full-blown guarantee, but these are good practices. >> So you were leveraging pre-existing work, classic, open-source ethos. >> Exactly, and they have like a set of domain experts completely focused on security building out these practices and you'll notice Kubernetes recently merged in the CII Best Practices badge, so if you go to the readme, you'll actually see it, and you'll click through and you'll see all the things that they've had to sign off and check on that they participate in, and so all of our projects are kind of going >> Training. >> Training, yeah, we just recently announced couple things. One is we have a >> Looking good so far, you get an A plus. >> Yeah, so as of today we've launched the Certified Kubernetes Administrator Program or CKA for short. So we have folks that are getting trained on, and are having official stamps that they are certified Kubernetes administrators, and to me that's huge, given like how hot the space is, having some stamp of approval that they are really certified in the space is huge. So we also offer free training through edX, so we launched some training courses earlier, and to be honest, if you look at our member companies, lots of great folks out there providing training material. >> So one of the keynotes that Christine Corbett Moran was talking about in her keynote was, more inclusion so there's no ruling class. Now I know you really have a ruling class going on with your high bar, I get that. How are you getting new members in, what's the strategy, who are the new members, how are you going to manage the perception possibly that a few people control the swing votes at potentially big projects? >> So here what's interesting is, people joining CNCF, like I mentioned before, we have a TOC, right? So there's kind of this separation of, I don't say church and state, but like, so the governing board, people who pay to join CNCF, they pay to sustain our open source projects, and so essentially they help with, they pay for marketing, staff, events and so on. They actually don't have technical influence over the projects. You don't have to be a member to have technical influence over our projects. People join CNCF because they want to have a say in the overall budget of how marketing, events and stuff, and just overall support the organization. But on the technical side, there's this kind of firewall, there's an independent TOC, they make the technical decisions. You can't really pay to join that at all, you have to actually be heavily participating in that community. >> John: How does someone get in that group? Is there a code? >> They have to just be like a luminary, we have a kind of election process that happens every two or three years, depending on how things are structured, and it's independently elected by the CNCF member community, essentially, is the simplest way I can explain it. >> The other announcement you talked about, kind of the individual certification, but the KCSP sort of programs >> Correct, exactly. >> Maybe you can tell us a little bit about that. >> Yes, so we had a program set up so it's Kubernetes Certified Service Provider, KCSP, that basically >> rolls right off the tongue >> I know, right, exactly. Herbal space program, whatever, I think of sometimes video games when we say it, but essentially, the program was put in place that a lot of end users out there in companies that are new to cloud native, and they're new to Kubernetes, essentially want to find a trusted set of partners that they can rely on, services and other things, so we created KCSP as a way to vet a certain set of companies that have at least a minimum of three people that have passed the Kubernetes certification exam that I talked about, and are essentially participating upstream in some way actively in the Kubernetes community. So we got a couple handfuls of companies that have launched, which is great, and so now, given that we're growing so fast, companies out there that are early end users that are exploring the space now have a trusted set of companies that go look at, and we're hoping to grow that program over time too. So this is just phase one. >> All right, so Chris, the other thing that I want to make sure we talk about, the Open Container Initiative, so I think it was originally OCP, which of course is, >> Open Container Project which when OCP was announced, it was like, okay, the cold war of Docker versus CoreOS versus everybody else, (Chris laughs) trying to figure out what that container format was, we all shook hands, I took a nice selfie with Ben who was CEO at the time, and everybody. So 1.0 is out. So, container's fully mature, ready to be rolled out right? But what does it mean? >> So I mean it's funny 'cause I basically joined the Linux Foundation, to help both start CNCF and OCI around the same time, right, and OCI was very narrowly scoped to only care about a small set of container-specific issues. One around how do you actually really run containers, start, stop, all that kind of life cycle bit, and how are containers laid out on disk, we call that the image specification. So you have the runtime spec and the image spec, and those are just very limited core pieces, like that OCI was not opinionated on networking or storage or any of, those are all left to other initiatives. And so after almost two years, we shipped 1.0, we got basically all the major container players to agree that this is 1.0 and we're going to build off from this, and so if you look at Docker with it's containerd project, or you know, fully adopting OCI, the Mesos community is, Cloud Foundry, even AWS announced their container register's supporting OCI, so we got the 1.0 out there, now we're going to see an abundance of people building tools and other things. I think you'll see more end users out there exploring containers. I've talked to a lot of companies that I can't necessarily name, but there's a lot of folks out there that may not dive into container technology until there is actually a mature standard and they feel like this technology is just not going to go away or they're going to get locked into some specific platforms. So, with 1.0 out the door, you'll see over the next six to 12 months, more tools being built. We're actually working to roll out a certification program so you get that nice little, you know, hey, this product is OCI-certified and supports the spec, so you'll see that happen over the next... >> Okay, so you've got the runtime spec and the image format spec, >> Yep, those are the two big ones. >> All 1.0, we're ready to roll, what's the roadmap >> Yeah, what's next. So there are early discussions about what other mature areas are out there kind of in container land right now. There are some discussions around distribution, so having a standard API to basically fetch and push container images out there. If you look at it, each container registry has basically a different set of APIs, and wouldn't it be nice if we could all kind of easily work together and have maybe one set, a way to kind of distribute these things. So there are some early discussions around potentially building out a distribution specification, but that's something that the technical community has to decide within OCI to do, and so over the next couple of months we're having some meetings, we're doing a bigger meeting at DockerCon Europe coming up in October to basically try to figure out what's really next. So I think after we shipped 1.0 a lot of people took a little bit of a breather, a break, and say like, congratulate themselves, take some vacation over the summer, and now we're going to get back into the full swing of things over the next couple of months. >> Say, what's the big conversation here, obviously at your event in Austin, it's got a plug for, theCUBE will be live covering it as well. >> I know, I'm excited. >> What's the uptake, what's the conversation in the hallways, any meetings, give us some >> Yeah, so we're doing >> I know there's some big announcement coming on Wednesday, there's some stuff happening >> Yeah, so, you know, first coming Wednesday, so like I mentioned, we have 10 projects right now in CNCF. We have two projects currently out for vote. So one of them is Envoy. There's a company you've probably heard of, Lyft, ride-sharing company, but Envoy essentially is their fancy service mesh that powers the Lyft platform, and many other companies out there are actually taking advantage of Envoy. Google's playing around with it, integrating into the Istio project, which is pretty powerful, but Envoy is currently, it was invited by the TOC for a formal vote, the voting period started last week, so we're collecting votes from the nine TOC members, and once that voting period is hopefully we can announce whether the project was accepted or not. The other project in the pipeline is a project called Jaeger, which is from Uber, you know, nice to have Uber >> John: Jaegermeister. >> Yeah, Jaegermeister, a bit like it. It's nice to have a product from Uber, another product from Lyft, kind of it's nice to see >> And if you have too much Jaeger, you have to take the Lyft to get home, right? >> Exactly, correct. So you know, just like Envoy, Jaeger is, you know, was formally invited by the TOC, it's out for vote, and hopefully we'll count the votes soon and figure out if it gets accepted or not. So Jaeger is focused on distributed tracing, so one problem in micro-services land is once you kind of like refactor your application to kind of be micro-services-based, actually tracing and figuring out what happens when things go wrong is hard, and you need a really good set of distributed tracing tools, 'cause otherwise it's like the worst murder mystery, you have like no idea what's happened, so having solid distributed tracing solution like Jaeger is great, 'cause in CNCF we're going to have a project called OpenTracing, but that's just kind of like the spec of how you do things, there's no full-blown client-server distributed >> For instance you usually need it for manageability >> Exactly, and that's what Jaeger provides, and I'm excited to kind of have these two projects under consideration in CNCF. >> Is manageability the hottest thing going on right now in terms of conversations? (Chris sighs) Or is it more stability and getting projects graduating? >> Yeah, so like our big focus is like, we want to see projects graduate, kind of meet the minimum bar that the TOC set up for graduated projects. In terms of other hot areas that are under discussion in CNCF are storage, so for example we have a storage working group that's been working hard to kind of bring in all the vendors and different storage folks together, and there's some early work called the container storage interface, we call it CSI for short, and so you know there's another project at CNCF called CNI, which basically tried to build a standard around how networking is done in container land. CSI is doing the same thing because, you know, it's no fun rewriting your storage drivers for all the different orchestration systems out there, and so why not get together and build out a standard that is used by Kubernetes, by Mesos, by Cloud Foundry, by Docker, and just have it so they all work across these things. So that's what's happening, and it's still early days, but there's a lot of excitement in that. >> Okay, the event in Austin, what can people expect? Cube-Con. >> You're literally going to have the biggest gathering of Kubernetes and cloud-native talent. It's actually going to be one of our biggest events probably for the Linux Foundation at all. We're probably going to get 3-4,000 people minimum out there, and I'm stoked, we're going to have some... Schedule's not fully announced yet. I do secretly know some of the keynotes potentially, but just wait for that announcement, I promise you it's going to be great. >> And one question I get, just I thought I'd bring it up since you're here in the hot seat, lot of people coming in with, supporting you guys on the governing side, not even cyclical. How are you going to service them, how are you going to scale up, do you have confidence that you have the ability to execute against those sponsorships, support the members, what's your plan, can you share some insights, clarify that? >> You know, pressure makes diamonds, right? We have a lot of people at the right table, and we are doing some hiring, so we have a couple spots open for developer advocacy, technical writing, you know additive things that help our project overall. We're also trying to hire a head of marketing. So like, we are in the process of expanding the organization. >> Do you feel comfortable... >> I feel comfortable, like things are growing, things are moving at a fast clip, but we're doing the best we can to hire and don't be surprised if you hear some announcements soon about some fun hires. >> Well it's been great for us covering, we've been present and creating, if you will, this movement, which has been kind of cool, because it kind of a confluence of a couple of things coming together. >> Chris: Yeah, absolutely. >> It's just been really fun to watch, just the momentum from the cloud really early days, 2009 timeframe to now, it's been a real nice ride and congratulations to the entire community. >> Thank you, like for me it's just exciting to have all these companies sitting together at the same table, having Amazon join, and the other top fighters, all basically committing to saying, we are in the cloud-native, we may have different ways of getting there, but we're all committed working together at some level. So I'm stoked. >> Great momentum, and you guys doing some great work, congratulations. >> Thank you very much. >> And you know it's working when I get focused, hey can you, so and so, I'm like, oh yeah, no problem, oh wow, they're big time now, you guys are big time. Congratulations. >> Thank you, it's in phase one now, like we have the right people at the table >> Don't screw it up! (John and Chris laugh) As they say. It's on yours. Chris Aniszczyk, who's the COO of the Cloud Native Compute Foundation, the hottest area of Linux Foundation right now, a lot of action on cloud, cloud-native developers where DevOps is meeting, lot of progress in application development. Still, they're really only two years old, get involved, more inclusion the better. It's theCUBE, Cube coverage of CNCF. We'll be in Austin in December. >> Chris: Yep, six to eight. >> December 6 to 8, we'll be there live. More live coverage coming back in Los Angeles here for the Open Source Summit North America after this short break.