>> Live from New York City, it's theCUBE. Covering Lenovo Transform 2.0. Brought to you by Lenovo. >> Welcome back to theCUBE, everyone. We are here at Lenovo Transform in New York City. I'm your host, Rebecca Knight, along with my cohost Stu Miniman. We're joined by Laura Laltrello. She is the VP Datacenter Group Services here at Lenovo. Thanks so much for coming on theCUBE. >> Thank you. It's your first time on the show. >> Yes, thank you for inviting me. >> Welcome. We're talking to you today about DevOps and blockchain, two of our favorite topics here on theCUBE. Let's start by talking about DevOps in general. About how much it has transformed the way we test and monitor and deploy new kinds of technology, and then add blockchain to this. Tell our viewers a little bit about what you do. >> DevOps has absolutely transformed many companies. The companies I've talked about today, at Transform, all three of them in the past two years have doubled their stock price. Imagine being able to double your stock price. Some have gone almost to triple, and they've done it by being able to go to market very fast and get what they want out in market. Then, adjust to the market as market demands change. They're using both agile software development along with setting up instant infrastructure and combining those techniques and the methodology and culture that goes on top of that to have small teams focused on business outcomes and that is, in summary, the DevOps process. >> I love that. Rebecca and I love talking about the cultural piece and we know a lot of times the technology piece is the easy part, the networking, it's the things upper in the stack, it's the people and processes and politics where we get tough. If I knew we were talking about DevOps, I wouldn't have worn the tie today. (all laughing) >> Yeah. >> How is Lenovo transforming internally, and how are you helping customers that are digging into this process? >> That's a really good point. DevOps is more of a mentality than a methodology. The methodology's great, but we work with our customers to ensure that they have the right project, that they have the right culture, and that they've gone through change management process they need to get everybody onboard to a new way of thinking about driving their business. We've done it internally with our blockchain process. We've implemented blockchain in our supply chain in three different areas, and they started as tiny proof of concepts and we just keep iterating and building on it like a typical DevOps model so that we're getting benefit from it, and we're starting to see it. >> You're using yourself as a case study here. >> Absolutely. >> Can you explain a little bit to our audience, a lot of times, they're going to hear blockchain and they're going to think bitcoin. >> Sure. Maybe explain, we understand that there's relationship, but it's not the same at all. >> One of our blockchain processes, we work with our suppliers, and we use it for supply and demand forecasting. If anyone knows how supply and demand forecasting works, typically by the time the person gets the information, the information's old and something's happened in the market and it's changed. With blockchain, you have access instantly to the exact same information, so you're working on the same level and the same basis, and it makes it transparent and clear to everyone. One of the other places we've used it is in software. Software licensing credits. We don't want to pay inventory costs for software licensing, so we're able to use blockchain so that when our users start using the software, then we start paying for it. It saves a ton and everybody's aware of what's happening because of the blockchain. >> You were talking about the right mindset for DevOps. Can you describe what you mean by that? >> A lot of IT teams still operate under we've got a milestone to hit, and then we've got another deliverable, and we have another milestone. With DevOps, what you're doing is you're having a very small group of people with a business outcome, which is extremely different. You want to take your time-to-quote process and cut it in half. That might be the business outcome that you're aligning your DevOps group to, and then they figure out exactly how to get there. It's very different than planning up front and saying I need this released in the U.S. by this date. Because a lot of times, by the time you get there, it's not the outcome you really wanted. >> When you talked about yourself as a case study here, how would you describe the Lenovo team and how everything changed and how the iteration process worked and whether or not you had to win over any skeptics? >> There are a ton of skeptics just on DevOps itself, and then obviously there are more on blockchain because it's so foreign, it's such a foreign concept. We started by just getting small groups of people to work together in that type of environment so that they get it and understand it and realize that the potential security risks are not as threatening as you might think because there's a DevSecOps security process. Once they realize that you can align on business outcomes and you can accomplish so much more by bringing something to market faster, they start to realize oh, I can keep making this better and we've gotten small teams, grassroot efforts involved to start doing that. >> Obviously, we've heard from Lenovo many times that service levels and how you're measured by customers, Lenovo does very well. First of all, congratulations. The question is is it enough, and of course it's a piece of the overall puzzle, so maybe help explain how support and service fit into the overall story as to how you not only maintain customers but win new customers. >> It is not enough. My service practice, my aspiration is to drive a complete, effortless experience for the customer, meaning every single time they engage with us they do not have to put any effort forward. When you start thinking about your processes internally backwards, and you're looking at it from a customer point of view and thinking what effort did they have to put in, it drives a very different mindset and it shifts people to think about doing the process very differently. We're thinking about things like entitlement. The customer doesn't get any value out of entitlement so how do we make it go away, and how do we make all unnecessary steps go away so we can continue to maintain that high customer sat. >> It's interesting, I think back, I'll date myself, 20 years in my career when I was out in the field dealing with customers. Customers loved me cause I took care of them. Where'd you become the Maytag repair man? They don't even have to see you, they don't have to know you. Certain people I talk to it's like wait, whose that Lenovo, oh wait, those are all those machines I have everywhere that I didn't even think about. >> That's OK. >> How do you balance that? >> There is so much going on right now in tech between machine learning and IoT and edge computing that we have a place, and that place should be providing value and driving business outcomes for our customers, not in repairing their machines. >> Going back to the culture, because this is just where I love to be, we heard on the mainstage so much about Kirk and (mumbles) talking about these points of pride for this company is this customer centricity but also being seen as an ethical, as a sustainable company, lauded for its social conduct. How does that feel when you're on the inside of Lenovo? How does that feel as an employee? >> I've talked to a lot of companies in the past 15 years I've been with Lenovo, and I can truly say we're one of the only companies that acts globally, and we look at a diverse set of opinions and that to me is really valued because when you're starting to try to see the elephant from every single angle, you get a better outcome. Every time I think about what's going to happen with this company, I know that foundation of thinking about things globally and looking at it from our entire customer set makes us a truly unique and different company. >> That's a great point. Do you have any examples or something you can say because there's lots of multi-national companies out there, but not that many that are truly global. >> Our Lenovo leadership team, they meet every quarter. They purposefully choose a different city to meet in every quarter and a different continent. When they do that, they go and immerse themselves in the culture of that continent so they get that flavor, and then we ensure that our board members and our LEC is a makeup of different nationalities and different perspectives. That alone gives you that tension to think about things much differently. Where a lot of our competitors, and a lot of companies out there, they really do make decisions in one city and if you're not in that city, you're not really part of the decision-making body of the company. >> They pay a lot of lip service to oh no, we care about these things, but actually what you're saying is so important by actually living that. What do you think, one of the questions that Stu and I have had for all these executives is the transformation story is great, as we know, we know by the numbers that this company has turned the corner and is really accelerating. The momentum is there. What are we looking at three to five years from now? What does success really look like for Lenovo? >> The customers will start to see us as a customer experience company more than a product company. You will see us transform our customer experience end to end, from every contact point, and even contact points within the devices. If anybody's had a chance to look at our OK Google device, they'll see that thing is based on looking at a customer experience and changing the way people use those devices. It's just a simple add of a few things in technology that's made that work. >> Laura, thank you so much for coming on the show. >> Thank you. >> It's great to have you. I'm sure you'll be back. >> Yes, I appreciate it, thank you for the time today. >> I'm Rebecca Knight, for Stu Miniman, we will have more from Lenovo Transform in just a little bit. (upbeat music)

>> Announcer: Live from Las Vegas, it's theCUBE, covering HPE Discover 2017 brought to you by Hewlett Packard Enterprise. >> Welcome back everyone, we are here live in Las Vegas for HPE, Hewlett Packard Enterprise Discover 2017. This is theCUBE, Silicon Angle's flagship program, we go out to the events and extract the signal from the noise, I'm John Furrier with my co-host Dave Vellante. Our next guest is Phillip Cutrone, who is the VP and General Manager of Worldwide OEM Datacenter Infrastructure Group, you're taking all of the stuff and offering it out to customers for HP. The portfolio's massive, welcome to theCUBE. >> That's right, hey, thank you so much, it's great to be here and what a great business. I got to tell you we have thousands of customers. Multiple billions of dollars of revenue, double digit growth for the past five years. It's an awesome business and I'd love to talk to you about all the vertical markets that we're taking care of. >> Let's start in with the strategy, so we see HP, okay, you now have a cloud play which is fine, I mean, what does a cloud play really mean, the cloud is everywhere so it's not like a cloud play kind of reminds me of the internet play. What's your internet play? It's the internet. So you guys are seeing the cloud all around you with other folks, that's an OEM opportunity, in and of itself as people become service providers. >> You know, >> The solutions are all over the place as well. >> There are services providers, but we find with OEM customers, let's think about OEM customers like this. Let's talk about edge for a moment. We've move compute to the edge as far as possible, right. That's an en vogue, that's a current contemporary topic of saying at the edge. In OEM we work with customers, say in healthcare. Whether you want records at the hospital, having it in a private cloud accessible to all doctors, but it goes a step further. You need to acquire the data first. Now let's talk about a CT scanner. A CT scanner needs a lot of processing to produce the image. So, we'll put a compute, specialized compute server inside the CT scanner to receive probably at a terabyte of data per minute that has to be recorded flawlessly into the server. Now we accumulate that information now it's not just one record, it's thousands of records. Now we can take, doctors can take a look at all that information to try to make, create better outcomes for patients. So think about pushing all of that data to a private cloud inside of a hospital in a healthcare example. Now, you can look at video surveillance, another great example, manufacturing, control of assets on your manufacturing floor and possibly telecommunications. So think about not just cloud, but pushing it down to the edge and doing the compute, processing, storage there and possibly using the cloud later on for big data analytics. >> I got to ask you the question, why are people interested in the OEM solution from you. You mentioned business is good, doing over billions of dollars, but why are they wanting to OEM, why HP? Why not just buy off the shelf stuff and cobble together? >> Yeah, so that's a long answer and hopefully I have enough energy to keep you and your audience entertained here. But let me say this, if you're going to bet your business on a product, on the infrastructure, who're you going to do it with? 'Cause it's a lot of responsibility. I can't book revenue until my OEM customers book revenue. That means they depend on Hewlett Packard Enterprise. So think about that level of responsibility. Okay, now let's think about the four components of what makes our OEM business. First off I'm going to say, I'm going to break this down into four Ss. The first S is going to be solution. Everything around here you see at HP Discover, is all about the portfolio. Resilient portfolio. What does OEMs care about? They care about great products, quality products, feature-its, great value, but, they also care about long life. So why do I care about long life? Some of these customers will spend six months to eight months, qualifying, certifying a solution on a server. They don't want to agree to do that for possibly another year, two, five years down the road. Pardon me. So they actually want to take their time and live that life out as long as it squeezes. >> It's integral to their solution. And they really spec it out. They're not just like bloating it, stacking and racking. >> That's right, now, but now they need someone to execute it. They need a supply chain, the second S. They may, if a customer, a small customer inside of Iowa, wants to ship product in Singapore, Japan, or South America, they need a company that can take them global, we can do that. One SKU, a custom SKU for that customer, the exact configuration, their image loaded in the factory deployed globally. The third S, services. Once it's deployed, they're going to need someone to maintain it. They'll do first level call on their application or something like along those lines, but they need someone to get on site and actually fix it if something were to happen. We give that assurance in our services. And then finally, you know, the OE in business is a dedicated business. It's not a, you may have not heard about us before, they were just a covert business, but it has dedicated resources, dedicated sales staff, dedicated engineering to manage and maintain. We have like a control tower. So think about our IT customers who are receiving products into their data center. It's a one time transaction generally speaking or infrequent For OEMs, it's every week we get a PO, we've got to be executing flawlessly all the time. So we need a control tower to maintain that entire ecosystem to make sure it's a flawless execution. >> So what's the fourth S? I got solution, supply chain, services. >> Staff, I call it dedicated resources, staff. >> Now I got to ask you Phil. >> Yeah. >> So you would before the split with HPE, HP had a big instrumentation business and it's sold presumably to a lot of, for instance, medical you know, device applications and use cases. Was there synergy between your business and that business? How did the split affect you? Certainly it affected the supply chain in a way, you know supply chain shrunk. Did it affect your buying power? How did you navigate that split? >> So generally speaking, the two businesses were operating separately anyway, even from a supply chain perspective, and yes it's true that there are common customers between say HPI today and HPE today as well, but in a case of calling on common customers, there's a workstation application where HPI specializes in, and then there's a storage or a compute from a server perspective, and we specialize in that, and there actually has been minimal overlap, so actually, if anything, there's still a very collaborative relationship with HPI today. >> And, and you said it's multiple billions, growing in double digits. >> That's right. >> Per year. And what exactly, I mean can you give us a sense of some of the solutions that your selling. >> Absolutely. >> What's hot? >> Yeah, I'll tell you, I want to go back to, I'm going to say two items. First off, telecommunications. Telecommunications was a huge opportunity doing the build out of 4G. Now 4G is out and that was billions of dollars of opportunity working with all our OEM customers. Now we're looking ahead of 5G. Now there's a tremendous opportunity. And we're starting to work on the servers of tomorrow. Now do we have the portfolio today to do 5G? Of course, but when 5G finally lands, it's probably going to be a vol, it's going to evolve, and it'll probably end up even being a different server than what we actually have on the truck today, because we're going to optimize and tune. But what's super super hot, I want to go back to healthcare for a minute. And it's important for all of us. When my children sometimes ask me, hey dad, what do you do for a living? Well if I tell them, I say, well you know, I OEM out, the don't know what the hell that means, right? Okay so, no no, we build servers. I don't understand that, what's a server? Storage, they don't get it. But if I say it this way, I help you connect that phone. Probably 90% of the phones in the United States connect through an HPE server, that's a fact. Okay that means it's enabling. So we provide communications, we provide entertainment, we're the infrastructure behind. And we save lives. How can you possibly proclaim that we save lives? I'll tell you how. When I'm, I go back to that CT scanner example. When a terabyte comes off that scanner and goes onto that server, there cannot be a hiccup. It's not buffered, it's not, it's got to land directly on it. If not, it's a misget. That means the patient gets reradiated, and it's an FDA offense. We have family members that have to go through CT scans, that's not a good thing. So we help save lives, that's the perspective. Now what's happening, what's so popular is collecting that data and let's go to digital pathology. That's the latest thing, now are you familiar with digital pathology? >> Not really. >> But the key point though is that the, the having the reliability is critical on the OEM, and they go to HP for the reliability, the custom engineering, staff. >> That's right. >> Because of the services you guys provide. >> And big data analytics. And that's where digital pathology, I want to close on this topic. When you go in, if someone has cancer, and they take a tissue sample, and they look for, they run the genome sequencing, and they're looking for the mutations in the cell, now, as you start to accumulate that, and we work with companies that are accumulating a petabyte a week of data on this very topic. Okay that's a lot of data. So now I want to figure out what's the most effective cure. So I can go back and look at millions of patients and look at what the therapies were for that specific mutation. That's very compelling. Now instead of throwing a barrage of every possible treatment to treat every patient, which in and of itself is detrimental to the body, now maybe it can be very small. I talked to some doctors and they say, you know, sometimes an aspirin can be a therapy for a specific mutation. Well why would I give it radiation? And this is the reason why, >> This is the power of data. >> Power of big data. It's going to help us make better decisions. >> Phil, thanks so much for coming in, really appreciate your insight, OEM opportunities are out there, and congratulations on your success. >> Thank you so much, appreciate it. >> This is The Cube coverage here at HPE Discover 2017, stay with us for more. We're on day two of three days of exclusive coverage with theCUBE, I'm John Furrier with Dave Vellante, be right back, stay with us. (electronic music)

>> Narrator: From Austin, Texas, it's theCUBE covering DockerCon 2017, brought to you by Docker and support from it's ecosystem partners. (upbeat music) >> Hi, and we're back, I'm Stu Miniman, and this is SilconANGLES production of the Cube, here at DockerCon 2017, Austin, Texas. Happy to have on the program Kiran Kamity, who was CEO of ContainerX which was acquired by Cisco. And you're currently the senior director and head of container products at Cisco. And also joining us is Brad Wong, who is the director of product management at Docker. Gentlemen, thank you so much for joining us. >> Brad: Thanks for having us. [Kiran] Thank you, Stu. >> So Kiran, talk a little bit about ContainerX, you know, bring us back to, why containers, you know why you help start a company with containers, and when to be acquired by a big company like Cisco. >> Yeah, it was actually late 2014 is when Pradeep and I, my co-founder from ContainerX, we started brainstorming about, you know, what do we do in the space and the fact that the space was growing, and my previous company called RingCube, which has sold to Citrix, where we had actually built a container between 2006 and 2010. So we wanted to build a management platform for containers, and it was in a way there was little bit of an overlap with Docker Datacenter, but we were focusing on mostly tendency aspects of it. Bringing in concepts like viamordi rs into containers et cetera. And we were acquired by Cisco about eight months ago now, and the transition in the last eight months has been fantastic. >> Great, and Brad, you're first time on the cube, so give us your background, what brought you to Docker? >> Yeah, so actually before Docker I was at actually, a veteran of Cisco, interestingly enough. Many different ventures in Cisco, most recently I was actually part of the Insieme Networks team, focusing on the software defined networking, and Application Centric Infrastructure. Obviously I saw a pretty trend in the infrastructure space, that the future of infrastructure is being led by applications and developers. With that I actually got to start digging around with Docker quite a lot, found some good interest, and we started talking, and essentially that's how I ended up at Docker, to look at our partner ecosystem, how we can evolve that. Two years ago now, actually. >> I think two years ago Docker networking was a big discussion point. Cisco's been a partner there, but bring us up to speed if you would, both of you, on where you're engaging, on the engineering side, customer side, and the breadth and depth of what you're doing. >> You're right, two years ago, networking was in quite a different place. We kicked it off with acquiring a company back then called SocketPlane, which helped us really define-- >> Yeah and we know actually, ---- and ----, two alums, actually I know those guys, from the idea to starting the company, to doing acquisition was pretty quick for you and for them. >> Right, and we felt that we really needed to bring on board a good solid networking DNA into the company. We did that, and they helped us define what a successful model would be for networking which is why they came up with things like the container networking model, and live network, which then actually opened the door for our partners to then start creating extensions to that, and be able to ride on top of that to offer more advanced networking technologies like Contiv for example. >> Contiv was actually an open source project that was started within Cisco, even before the container was acquisitioned. Right after the acquisition happened, that team got blended into our team and we realized that there were some really crown jewels in Contiv that we wanted to productize. We've been working with Docker for the last six months now trying to productize that, and we went from alpha to beta to g a. Now Contiv is g a today, and it was announced in a blog post today, and it's actually 100% open-source networking product that Cisco TAC and Cisco advanced services have offered commercial support and services support. It's actually a unique moment, because this is the fist 100% open-source project that Cisco TAC has actually offered commercial support for, so it's a pretty interesting milestone I think. >> I think also with that, we also have it available on Docker store as well. It's actually the first Docker networking plug-in that it's been certified as well. We're pretty also happy to have that on there as well. >> Yeah. >> Anything else for the relationship we want to go in beyond those pieces? >> We also saw that there was a lot of other great synergies between the two companies as well. The first thing we wanted to do was to look at how we can also make it a lot better experience for joint customers to get Docker up and running, Docker Enterprise Edition up and running on infrastructure, specifically on Cisco infrastructure, so Cisco UCS. So we also kicked off a series of activities to test and validate and document how Docker Enterprise Edition can run on Cisco UCS, Nexus platforms, et cetera. We went ahead with that and a couple months later we brought out, jointly, to our Cisco validated designs for Docker Enterprise Edition. One on Cisco UCS infrastructure alone, and the other one jointly with NetApp as well, with the FlexPod Solution. So we're also very very happy with that as well. >> Great. Our community I'm sure knows the CVD's from what they are out there. UCS was originally designed to be the infrastructure for virtualized environments. Can you walk me through, what other significant differences there or anything kind of changing to move to containers versus what UCS for virtualized environment. >> The goal with that, UCS is esentially considered a premium kind of infrastructure server infrastructure for our customers. Not only can they run virtual environments today, but our goal is as containers become mainstreamed, containers evolved to being a first-class citizen alongside VM. We have to provide our customers with a solution that they need. And a turnkey solution from a Cisco standpoint is to take something like a Docker stack, or other stacks that our customer stopped, such as Kubernetes or other stacks as well, and offer them turnkey kind of experience. So with Docker Data Center what we have done is the CVD that we've announced so far has Docker Data Center, and the recipe provides an easy way for customers to get started with USC on Docker Data Center so that they get that turnkey experience. And with the MTA program that was announced, today at the key note. So that allows Cisco and Docker to work even more closely together to have not just the products, but also provide services to ensure that customers can completely sort of get started very very easily with support from advanced services and things like that. >> Great, I'm wondering if you have any customer examples that you can talk through. If you can't talk about a specific, logo, maybe you can talk about. Or if there are key verticals that you see that you're engaging first, or what can you share? >> We've been working joint customer evals, actually a couple of them. Once again I don't think we can point out the names yet. We haven't fully disclosed, or cleared it with their Prs Definitely into financials. Especially the online financials, a significant company that we've been working with jointly that has actually adopted both Contiv, and is actually seeing quite a lot of value in being able to take Docker, and also leverage the networking stack that Contiv provides. And be able to not just orchestrate networking policies for containers, but the other thing that they want to do is to have those same policies be able to run on cloud infrastructure, like EWS for example. So they obviously see that Docker is a great platform to be enable their affordability between on premises and also public cloud. But at the same time be able to leverage these kind of tools that makes that transition, and makes that move a lot easier so they don't have to re-think their security networking policies all over again. That's been actually a pretty used case I thought of the joint work that we did together with Contiv. >> Some of the customers that we've been talking to in fact we have one customer that I don't think I'm supposed say the name just yet, but we've drollled it out, has drolled out Contiv with the Docker on time. In five production data centers already. And these are the kind of customers that actually take to advanced networking capabilites that Contiv offers so that they can comprehensive L2 networking, L3 networking. Their monitoring pools that they currently use will be able to address the containers, because the L2, the L3 networking capabilities allows each container to have an IP address that is externally addressable, so that the current monitoring tools that you use for VMs et cetera can completely stay relevant, and be applicable in the container world. If you have an ACI fabric that continues to work with containers. So those are some of the reasons why these customers seem to like it. >> Kiran, you're relatively new into Cisco, and you were a software company. Many people they still think of Cisco as a networking company. I've heard people derogatory it's like, "Oh they made hardware define networking when they rolled out some of this stuff." Tell us about, you talk about an open source project that you guys are doing. I've talked to Lou Tucker a number of times. I know some of the software things you guys are doing. Give us your viewpoint as to your new employer, and how they might be different than people think of as the Cisco that we've known for decades. >> Cisco is, has of course it has, you know, several billion dollars of revenue coming in from hardware and infrastructure. And networking and security have been the bread and the butter for the company for many many years now But as the world moves to Cloud-Native becoming a first class citizen, the goal is really to provide complete solutions to our customers. And if you think of complete solutions, those solutions include things like networking, thing like security. Including analytics, and complete management platforms. At the same time, at the end of the day, the customers want to come to peace with the fact that this is a multi-cloud world Customers have data centers on premises, or on hosted private cloud environments. They have workloads that are running on public clouds. So with products like cloud center, our goal is to make sure that whatever they, the applications that they have, can be orchestrated across these multiple clouds. We want to make sure that the pain points the customers have around deploying whole solutions include easy set-up of products on infrastructure that they have, and that includes partnerships like UCS, or running on ACI or Nexus. We want to make sure that we give that turnkey experience to these customers. We want to make sure that those workloads can be moved across and run across these different clouds. That's where products like cloud center come in. We want to make sure that these customers have top grade analytics, which is completely software. That's were the app dynamics acquisition comes in. And we want to make sure that we provide that turnkey experience with support in terms of services. With our massive services organization, partners, et cetera. We view this as our job is to provide our customers what they need in terms of the end solution that they're looking for. And so it's not just hardware, it's just a part of it. Software, services, et cetera, complimented. >> Alright, Brad last question that I have for you in the keynote yesterday, I couldn't count how many times the word ecosystem was used. I think it was loud and clear that everybody there I think it was like, you know, Docker will not be successful unless it's partners are successful, kind of vice versa. When you look at kind of the product development piece of things, how does that resonate with you and the job that you're doing? >> We basically are seeing Docker become more of a, more and more of a platform as evidenced by yesterdays keynote. Every platform, the only way that platform's going to be successful is if we can do great, we have great options for our partners, like Cisco, to be able to integrate with us on multiple different levels, not just on one place. The networking plug-in is just one example. Many many other places as well Yesterday we announced two new open source initiatives. Lennox kit and also the movi project. You can imagine that there's probably lots of great places where partners like Cisco can actually play in there, not just only in the service fees, but maybe also in things like IOT as well, which is also a fast-emerging place for us to be. And all the way up until day two type of monitoring, type of environment as well where we think there's a lot of great places where once again, options like app dynamics, tetration analytics can fit in quite nicely with how do you take applications that have been migrated or modernized into containers, and start really tracking those using a common tool set. So we think that's really really good opportunities for our ecosystem partners to really innovate in those spaces, and to differentiate as well. >> Kiran, I want to give you the final word, take-aways that you want the users here, and those out watching the show to know about, you know, Cisco, and the Docker environment. >> I want to let everybody know that Cisco is not just hardware. Our goal is to provide turnkey complete solutions and experiences to our customers. And as they walk through this journey of embracing Cloud-Native workloads, and containerized workload there's various parts of the problem, that include all the way from hardware, to running analytics, to networking, to security, and services help, and Cisco as a company is here to offer that help, and make sure that the customers can walk away with turnkey solutions and experiences. >> Kiran and Brad, thank you so much for joining us. We'll be back with more coverage here. Day two, DockerCon 2017, you're watching theCube.

>> Announcer: From Austin, Texas, it's theCUBE covering DockerCon 2017. Brought to you by Docker and support from its ecosystem partners. (techno music) >> Welcome back. Hi, I'm Stu Miniman, joined with Jim Kobielus. You're watching theCUBE's SiliconANGLE Media's production of DockerCon 2017. We're the worldwide leader in live enterprise tech coverage. And we can't finish any DockerCon without having Jerry Chen on. So, Jerry, partner with Greylock, always a pleasure to interview you. We've had you on the Amazon shows a lot, Docker, other ecosystem shows, so, great to see ya. >> Stu, Jim. Hey, thanks for having me, as always. It's great to be here. >> Alright, so first of all, I mean, you invested back in the dotCloud days. Could you imagine, when you were meeting with Solomon and those guys and everything that we'd be here with 5,500 people as to where they'd go? What's your take on the growth? >> Every year just blows my mind, both in open-source community developers, ecosystem partners, and more recently, past year and a half, the enterprise customers that take Docker seriously, or replatformed applications on Docker, amazes me. I think I did an investment in 2013, and there were a few hundred thousand downloads of Docker, now there's billions and billions of containers being pulled. When I talk to CIOs that I deal with frequently, they're like, "Docker containers, what is this thing, pants?" And then, (laughter) three and a half, four years later, I can't have a conversation without a Fortune 500 CIO without talking about their Docker container strategy. >> By the way, I hear if you do send back a belt or something that's broken to the Docker people, they'll fix it for you, and maybe send some whale stickers. >> It's like the old school Nordstroms where they take any return. They're this urban store, with the four tires return to Nordstrom, return some pants, you'll be fine. >> You know, we work on container strategy, but we're also your repair shop for you know, men's apparel. So, it's always interesting to look at-- >> Jim: Integration fabric. >> Brilliant. You know, the maturation of technology, of ecosystem, of monetization. I feel like you talked about the growth of the containers. We've seen the ecosystem. It's gone through some fits and spurts and changes over the last couple of years. I think we're really well-received this week. And then there's the money maturation and how they mature that. What do you see? How does open-source fit into your investment strategy, and any commentary on Docker and beyond? >> I was thinking about this on the flight over here today. Open source today is very different than open source five years ago, 10 years ago, as 15. So what what Red Hat did 20 years ago, is very different than what Xen tried to do 10 years ago. When I was at VMware, very different from what Docker is doing today. And it's different in a couple ways. I think the way you monetize is different. Because you have cloud, and cloud changes things. The ecosystem's very different, because all of a sudden the developers, contributors, are not just kind of your misfits and rebels working on the weekends. They are Fortune 100, Fortune 500 companies. Their jobs are now dedicated to this. And then the business models of the developers' ecosystem, how you work with them is very different. So before, you had maybe one or two models to make money in open source. Or one or two ways to develop a community. We did that at Red Hat, which Greylock was lucky enough to be investors in years ago. I was at VMware around Cloud Foundry, we built that. We had a model mine, we had a spring source as well, and what you've seen Docker in the past three or four years, is they're really pioneering a way to bring open source and community ecosystem into the next 10-20 years. So I think it's one to watch. I think Solomon's probably as good as anybody understanding what developers need. >> So a little broader, what's your thoughts on developers today? You actually made the comment coming over, there's two big developer shows this week. You've got F8 and you've got DockerCon, two very different communities. >> Right, it's kind of funny. There's always this sense of, do you consider yourself a developer? So if I write a line of JavaScript, am I a developer? My two cents is yes. If I'm a developer, from JavaScript to Swift to Docker to cURL hacking, it's all great. But if you look at those two conferences, you have F8 going on right now, and the announcements there around augmented reality and messaging, and it's trying to be a platform, but they're doing many of the same things. You have a distribution platform be it Messenger or Facebook, and they're open sourcing technologies around the camera, the lens, the filters, to have developers a) go through the channel, b) add apps or widgets. It's really beyond my ability to comprehend these filters, but Docker today announced a couple great projects: Moby and Linux Kit, much the same way as trying to give tools to the ecosystem developers to build what they want. I think what you've learned is, if you give developers the building blocks, the "Legos" as they call it today, they're going to build some awesome structures. >> Jim was, we talked about coming in here as the role of how data science fits into the developers, and developer is such a broad term, as to what we have here. >> One of the core themes I have is that the data scientist is the nucleus of next generation developer because much of the IP that's being built in the applications now, is statistical models and machine learning and so forth, driving recommendation, but much of that development is being containerized using new tool kits and so forth. But it needs to be more containerized so you can deploy statistical predictive models, machine learning, deep porting to routing the string ecosystem into a hybrid cloud to perform various functions. >> Right now there's, in most companies, there's a data engineer, there's a data scientist, and the two typically work hand in hand. >> Jim: One manages Hadoop, the other one does the modeling. >> Does the modeling, so one speaks in R and Python and works in Jupyter Notebook, the other person runs on Hadoop or database or Redis. The two need to work together and so what you're seeing now and obviously we're investors of Cloudera, that's another great open source company, what you see now is either a) a set of tools and technologies to either blend the two together in some cases, either enable engineers to be more data scientists, or enable data scientists to be more engineers, but also see a bunch of technology tools that say, no, two different roles, I'm going to create tools purpose-built for the data scientists, create tools purpose-built for the power of a data engineer. And I think there's space for both to the extent that you have applications running from news feed or ads to predicting how my self-driving car should make a left turn, you're going to need tools that are used by both types of populations. >> I think Cloudera now has a collaboration environment in the data science department. IBM has something very similar with what they're doing, so it's a team that has specialties such as coders, such as data modelers and data engineers. Point well taken. Cloudera's made a major entrance into that space of collaborative development, of these rich stacks of IP, essentially, that include deterministic program code, but also probabilistic models in a deepening stack. >> I think you've seen Cloudera definitely follow that path from Hadoop and low-level file system HDFS, to these high-level tools for data scientists that's becoming a platform for machine learning for these next generation applications. I think you see Docker in the infrastructure analogy doing low-level tools like Project Moby and Linux Kit, to high-level services around Docker Datacenter. So you can either have the basic tools for your low-level developer, or for the system admin or administrator who wants to operate or run the cloud, you have tools for him or her, too. >> It's interesting, you look at some of these projects and some of the maturation and pivots you see. We talked about dotCloud went over to Docker. You see a bunch of open stock companies that are now Kubernetes companies. I see companies that were big data, they're now, "Oh, I'm an AI or ML company." It's always like, it's usually not the tool, it's the wave. What is the driver? Is data the driver of our next wave there? Is it the application? Is it some combination of the two? Those are the two that I usually look at. Follow the data, follow the application. >> I would say it's data driving. It's really data application, it's data, and the applications make use of the data. Algorithms, I think, is a component. They're important, but they're a component. So what you see now is, to be on the right side of history, data is outstripping compute and storage, so the amount of videos and center data that we're generating from our phones, our cars, our homes, that is outstripping most of the other charts in compute, networking, whatever. That's definitely kind of a rising tide or a wave, as Stu was saying. Now how do we extract data, or value from this data? And historically, because you didn't have infrastructure, that cloud, or compute capacity to make use of this data, it was kind of stranded, so what you've seen in generation technologies like Hadoop or big data or cloud technologies like Docker did, is distribute your applications across a cloud. That's actually enabling you to now build applications to get value out of this data. And that value can be something like forecasting your sales this quarter. It can be about figuring which shade of brown belt you should wear with your pants, going back to our clothing analogy. Or it could be like, let me build a model around how this car or this drone should drive or fly itself. So you combine the vast amount of data, nearly infinite resource of compute, with these machine-learning or AI techniques. Machine learning is one AI technique, but all these other techniques, you can build another generation application, this new intelligent application to power everything from your home, your car, your watch, or your enterprise app, as wonderful as that is. >> Much of the sea change is less and less coding or programming is actually being done or needs to be done because more of the application logic is being distilled directly from the data in the form of machine learning. There's automated machine learning tools that are coming. Google has been a major investor as is Facebook in automated machine learning. >> I would say application logic from the inside, right. So in my mind, application logic, an application is reflecting business process. Hire to fire, order to cash. You still need a program that does logic. Data in itself, or AI in itself without that context, without that business process, is meaningless, right. Just having a model around Jim or Stu, it doesn't matter unless you're trying to buy something. Google pioneered machine learning in a workflow perfectly. You're searching for something, they knew who you were based upon history, you're searching the right ad and say, "Oh, you really want to buy a car, you want to buy a house." So in the workflow, or in the application logic of a search, they used ML to serve you timely information. Now if you're an enterprise, you're looking at help desk tickets, be it ITSM like ServiceNow, or support tickets like Zendesk supporting B to C support tickets. That's a workflow, there's application logic. They take information on a user or a grumpy customer, and they do things like automatically respond to a help ticket, reset your password, provision a server. So I think when you have AI or have applications using this data in the context of a business process, that's magic. And I think we're seeing some core technologies like TensorFlow out there that are super compelling. But we're seeing a generation of developers and founders take that technology, apply it to a problem, it could be HR or CRM, ITSM, or true vertical. Construction, finance, health care. >> Jim: Streaming media analytics is a core area where that's coming in. >> Media analytics because there's a ton of data. Understand what you watch and what you want to see, and so you apply things to a vertical, like health care, or apply the technology to a problem space like media analytics, and you have a wonderful application and hopefully a great company. >> Jerry, we've talked a lot at the cloud shows about how do the startups maintain relevant and get involved when there's all of these platforms. We talked about what Google does, Amazon of course is eating the entire world in everything. Microsoft is making lot of moves here. How do companies, what do you look for? Has your investment strategy changed at all in the last couple of years? >> It is daunting. I think about this a lot in terms of business models and defensibility, and the question goes, what are the sustainable moats you can build around your business as a startup anymore? 'Cause you feel like economies of scale and ecosystems, network effects, those were historically big defensive moats for a Windows operating system. Now those apply to Facebook's platform, Apple's platform, or AWS. They have scale and they have network effects for the ecosystem, so now your startup is saying, okay, how can I either a) overcome those moats, or b) how can I develop my own IP or my own moats around myself that I can actually sustain and thrive in this generation. I think you got to play a different game. As a startup, you're not going to try to out-scale Google or Microsoft; leave that to Amazon and those three or four players. But you can get scale in a domain, so either a problem space like autonomous vehicles, security is a great one, or vertical construction or health care. You redefine the market that you can dominate, can you build your own moat around that IP. >> It's interesting. did you hear Adrian Cockcroft who went from Battery Ventures over to AWS. He's like, "Well, rather than go startup that business, "come build that next thing at Amazon "and we'll do it there." Is that a viable way for people with the entrepreneurial spirit to go be part of that two-pizza team doing something cool inside a large platform? >> I think Adrian probably has motivation and more developers on Amazon now, but I would say most of our companies, not all, but a lot of them started at Amazon. Some start in ads, some start in Google, some start with their own data centers. I think what they believe is they'll get started in one of these clouds but I don't believe, so we talked about this first, it's not a one-cloud-rules-all world. I think there'll be three or four, if not more, clouds in every different geography from Europe to Asia to Russia to the US, will have different clouds, different players. So I think it's fine to get started in Amazon and be a two-pizza team with the other two-pizza team, but over time I see these applications being cross-cloud, and that's where something like Docker comes into play. Docker wants to be cross-cloud, better than any other technology out there. >> On some level, actually, the moat could be, or increasingly is, the training data that drives the refinement of your AI, like Tesla is a perfect example. The self-driving capabilities that they built into the vehicle, they have now a few years' worth of rich test data, training data I should say, that is a core moat in terms of continuing refinement of those algorithms. So that gives you sort of an example of some startup might come along with some very specialized application that takes the consumer world by storm and then they build up some deep well of training data in some very specialized area that becomes their core asset that their next competitor down the pipe doesn't have. >> It has to be a set of data that's unique or proprietary. You're not going to basically out-train your model on cat photos from Google, right? So it has to be a combination of either proprietary data or a combination of data sources that you can stick together. So it's not just one data source, I believe you have to combine multiple data sources together. >> So Jerry, sitting over Jim's shoulder is VMware's booth. I haven't talked about VMware at all this week. You worked at VMware, I've worked with VMware since pretty early days. What advice would you give VMware in the containerized cloud future? How should they be doing more to be part of more conversations? >> I think it's amazing that they have a presence here in the size and scale. The past couple years they're really done a lot to embrace containers and Docker, so I think that's first and foremost. They've done a couple great moves lately. Embracing Amazon last year, with VMware on Amazon, was a big move. Embracing containers with some of their cloud and data technologies I think was an aggressive move too. So I think they're moving in the right direction. I think what they need to understand is, are they going to revolutionize themselves and push these new technologies aggressively, or are they going to keep hanging onto some of their old businesses? For any company of their size and scale, they have multiple motivations, but I think they're making the right steps. So five years ago, or four years ago, I don't think they would have taken this DockerCon seriously. I don't think they were exhibitors at the first DockerCon. But in the past 24 months they've done some amazing moves, so I would say it makes me smile to see them take these great steps forward. >> Jerry, I want to give you the last word. Any cool companies we should be looking at, or things that are exciting to you without giving away trade secrets? >> I can't broadcast the companies I want because everyone else is going to chase those investments. I don't know, I think I'm going to enjoy spending time, actually less with the companies here but a lot with the developers and customers, because I think by the time they have a booth here, everybody knows the company's investment is probably too far along maybe for me to invest, maybe not. But talking to developers to hear what are their friction points? I think when you hear enough friction either in this ecosystem or another ecosystem or at AWS or VWware, then there's something there, you just got to scratch. >> I was talking to some of the people working the booths and they just said the quality of the attendees here, you learn something with every single person you talk to, and there's only a few shows that say that. Amazon reinvented one, the quality of the attendees always real good, this one and a few others. >> I think people who come here by definition are learners, both the companies and the individuals, and you want to surround yourself with learners, people who are open and honest and always learning. >> Jerry, I think that's a perfect note to end it on. We are always learners here and helping to help our audience in trying to understand these technologies, so Jerry Chen, always a pleasure. And we'll be back with the wrap-up here of day one DockerCon 2017. You're watching theCUBE. (techno music)

>> Announcer: Live from Austin, Texas. It's theCUBE, covering DockerCon 2017. Brought to you by Docker, and support from its ecosystem partners. (bright electronic music) >> Welcome back. I'm Stu Miniman, joined by Jim Kobielus for two days of theCUBE's live coverage, DockerCon 2017, here in Austin, Texas. We are the worldwide leader in live enterprise tech coverage, happy to welcome to the program, a first-time guest on theCUBE, happens to also be a local here in the Austin area, so Dustin Kirkland, the Ubuntu Product and Strategy, with Canonical, thanks so much for joining us. >> Thanks, Stu. >> All right, so Dustin, give us a good thumbnail, what's your role, and how excited are you to be at another local show. All the open source shows seem to be here in Austin. I mean, we love doing it. >> I'm super glad. >> Dustin: We love sharing Austin. Glad for people to come and visit. Just make sure you go home at the end of it. (chuckles) >> Jim: Keep Austin weird and keep it open. >> That's right, that's right. Yeah, it's great to be local, it's great to have the Docker community back in Austin. It was, a lot of these people were here for OpenStack. We'll be back for CubeCon later this year. OSCON in between. >> All right, and tell us a little bit about your role. >> Yes, so I lead Product and Strategy at Ubuntu. We make an operating system that runs in the cloud, on public clouds, private clouds, bare-metal, physical servers, down to desktops and embedded devices. >> Okay, so, I have a serious question for you. Every time we see the surveys of OpenStack, the surveys in the public cloud, Canonical's always there. I mean, everybody's using your stuff. >> Dustin: Good! >> But where are people paying money for it? What's kind of from the business standpoint, maybe you can give us the quick update on that. >> People pay money when it's mission-critical. When Ubuntu and OpenStack and soon, Kubernetes, certainly more and more, Docker, when that's part of the mission-critical infrastructure, they pay for that. They pay the support and the services, they pay for consulting, for design, for leads, for architecture. They pay for access to the product roadmap, and so we do have some really brand-name customers who pay us good money for that. >> Okay, it's our third year doing theCUBE at this show, and every year, it seems we come in with one of the same questions, which is like, all right, is this ready for production, is anybody using it? We backed you to knock down the doors of everybody here, and give us more customers to talk to, so, what do you see, what's your answer to that? >> Yeah, I mean, it strikes me as really odd when people are still asking, "Are containers ready "for production?" Containers have been part of our DNA in Ubuntu for almost 10 years now. Shipping an OS that boots into a container that's able to run LXD containers, Docker containers, and run those at tremendous scale. We'd run containers underneath as the control plane of every OpenStack cloud we've ever deployed, every Kubernetes cloud we've ever deployed, every Hadoop cloud we've ever deployed. So containers are part of our production system. >> So do you guys have a marketing term? You guys are the hipster Linux container company. You were doing it before it was cool. >> I guess so, I mean it's, I guess, it's like asking, and I wonder, you think cellphones are mainstream yet? It's like, yeah, it is now, but you're probably one of the first in your family to have a cellphone, right? It's, we're kind of at that juncture, where we've been doing for a long time, and it's good to see others finally taking advantage as well. >> In the keynote this morning, we talked, we saw a lot about the maturation of Docker. They really started out working with the developer, they've really grown, working with the business, working with the enterprise. Talk to us about your customers as it fits into the container space in general, Docker, specifically. What are you guys seeing? >> As an operating system that delivers the latest and greatest open source software across multiple architectures, public and private clouds, Docker fits into that very well, in fact. It sits alongside LXD at giving that machine container, replace your VM's experience, but also the new way of writing applications. Solomon talked about applications, and if you're going to develop an application, Docker is a great application development platform. So when applications are being developed, (mumbles) or microservices, from scratch, Docker is a fantastic approach, and we see more developers using Ubuntu desktops and Ubuntu in the cloud, as that development platform. As that matures, then we get into a situation where it becomes mission-critical, and then we have really interesting commercial discussions around how do we really help that platform succeed? >> All right, we just Microsoft on the program. >> Dustin: John, right? >> Yeah, John was on, talks about, (mumbles) Microsoft is talking about being open, Microsoft's talking about choice. They actually talked, John mentioned, your company and your operating system. When we get to cloud solutions, Canonical's supported everywhere. How do you guys differentiate? How do you make sure that they're choosing your product as opposed to something else? >> So Ubuntu itself, always latest and greatest. It's fresh, you're never more than six months away from the next latest and greatest everything across the board. You're never more than two years away from an LTS, a long-term support release. That's really the key differentiator for Ubuntu is its freshment, its velocity, and that maps very well to the container world, where things are revving very, very quickly. >> All right, security was a big focus this morning also. What's your viewpoint as to where security lives, how that works with all of your environment, and what you guys do for that-- >> I've been a security nerd for most of my career. In fact, it's one of those jobs you leave but you always kind of get sucked back into because you care about it, honestly. Ubuntu as a platform, security, we take very seriously. Encryption anywhere, we can use encryption, updates, latest and greatest updates, kernel patches, Livepatch for the kernel. (coughs) Livepatch for the kernel is particularly interesting from a security perspective because it enables us to address security vulnerabilities without rebooting systems, and that's really important in a containerized environment, where you're not just running one or two machines, you're running potentially thousands of machines or containers or applications, and being able to update one single kernel with a Livepatch, without rebooting any of them, that's what security people are excited about when we talk Ubuntu kernel and security. >> (mumbles) Ubuntu being deployed into Internet of things, or to what extent is your roadmap going in that direction 'cause we're seeing a lot of new development going into the Internet of things, to deploy artificial intelligence and deep learning algorithms and data, down to the edge, and so-- >> Yeah, it's beautiful, I mean, that edge-to-cloud story is something that we've got a very clear view on. We produce an OS, an Ubuntu OS called Ubuntu Core, is a read-only operating system custom-tailored for IoT devices. That's the OS, it's the same Ubuntu but rolled and managed and updated in a different way. Applications fit onto that device in the form of snaps, or Docker containers, frankly. They're a little bit different in the way that they're implemented, but we have a new packaging system that's well-adapted, well-tuned-- >> A snap is more, something different from a container, how? >> It is, it's a form of a container. It's less than a container, but it uses some of the same container primitives. It's, frankly, it's an archive and a set of security profiles that wrap that tarball, essentially, and the way it's executed in a very secure manner, so it's wrapped with AppArmor profiles, it only has access to certain parts of the system, it contains its own dependencies, but they're contained in such a way that they're protected from the rest of the system. A lot of that sounds like Docker, and it is similar to Docker, but Docker provides a little bit more of that machine experience. Docker will include a file system, it'll draw an IP address sometimes, or defroute traffic, whereas a snap actually runs directly on the underlying OS. It's more tightly linked to that OS. In terms of linking back to the machine learning, that happens in the cloud. Inevitably, IoT drives more cloud adoption because those little IoT devices, they've got so little processing power and storage by design, that information needs to go somewhere, and it goes to the cloud, where something like a TensorFlow, running in a Docker Swarm, or a Kubernetes, or some combination of those two, are really crunching the interesting problems. >> First, Google recently made a big to-do about federating more of the machine learning algorithms all the way to the edge device, so, the world is going in that direction but I hear you. That's, they're very constrained-- >> Dustin: We hear a lot about the edge. >> To run the algorithms that pull power on the edge device, but it's coming. >> Yeah, for sure. >> Great. >> Stu: All right, so Dustin, I heard Kubernetes and Swarm, you guys, agnostic to that, support all of it. >> Dustin: We are. >> What do you guys code on, what do you hear from customers? >> Yeah, so we're very proud of our position here. I'm here at DockerCon, supporting Docker. Docker Inc. is a close commercial partner of Canonical. We, Canonical is authorized to resell Docker Enterprise Edition, Docker services, Docker support. We've got mutual customers who buy that directly from Canonical, and we support Docker and Swarm and Datacenter on top of Ubuntu, and that's a great story that brings us from the developers who are running Docker on Ubuntu on their Macs and Windows machines. John, I'm sure, was talking about Windows and Docker. But when they put that into production, we've got the wherewithal to support that. We offer Kubernetes as another platform. I've spoken with some really bright, just last night, with a really bright cloud architect from a major Internet service provider, and their role is they set up Docker Swarms for their internal customers, and Kubernetes Clusters for their internal customers, and Cloud Foundries, and OpenStacks, all inside of this big telco Internet cable giant, and it makes sense, and they can do all of that, and do all of that on top of Ubuntu, because it's the platform that can offer whatever they need for their customers. >> All right, one of the other announcements in the keynote this morning was LinuxKit, so, I got a little bit of a preview before the show, and I don't feel that it was Docker trying to punch at the providers of Linux, and it didn't seem to come off that way in the keynote, but for those that hear at a glance, oh, wait, LinuxKit developed with a bunch of, you know, seems like mostly hardware companies plus Microsoft and Docker. What do you guys see, how do you look at that? >> It's genuinely fun for an open source engineer to put together a Linux distribution. It's like the thing you want to do, and customize it and tailor it, and the beauty of open source is you can absolutely do that, and so, what I saw from LinuxKit, I too got a little preview, it seems it comes out of the part of Docker that also works on unikernels, Alpine, to an extent, and they've built a container-optimized, or Docker-optimized OS from Docker, so if you want Docker all the way down, it sounds like LinuxKit is a solution that they're working on, still working on. I'll say that Ubuntu, containers are in our DNA, we built a kernel and we built a security system around containers for quite some time, and we continue to optimize that, and we work directly with Microsoft, Google, Amazon to ensure that the Ubuntu that's running in those public clouds is ready to run Docker and other container systems out of the box, and very consistently, in a way that looks exactly like the Ubuntu that's running as the bash shell on the Windows desktop, as the Ubuntu desktop itself, as the server that you might run in any one of the public clouds. It's a very consistent experience. We do tune that and tailor that, but it's in ways that ensures portability. >> All right, so Dustin, you talked about kind of the history and how long people have been using it. Production should not be a question. It's just where, what, how you're doing this. What things do you still see us needing to mature, or what excites you about this going forward? >> Yeah. The management, honestly, and that comes back to security. Ensuring that running those containers at scale, you're doing that in a secure manner. Minimal is part of it. We hear that quite a bit, that, "I want a minimal image, I want a minimal host." That is an important part of it. It's, we have to be a little bit careful that we don't go so minimal that we end up creating a bunch of snowflakes, special unicorns where every container image is a little bit different, every host is a little bit different, because it's more minimal than the previous one. That actually creates more security problems, so I think thinking that problem through is, it's one of the most important problems that I think through, or I'm working on right now, and I think others are interested in working on as well. >> All right, Dustin, you've been way too pleasant through all of this interview, so before we end up, as an Austin local here, I have to ask you the divisive question. Your favorite barbecue place. (Dustin groans) >> You know-- >> Jim: Your favorite bar band, too. Keep going. >> Okay, yeah, I mean, you can't go wrong with the award-wining Franklin's barbecue or the gas station Rudy's, we love those. My favorite's a little hole in the wall out close to where I live. It's a trailer that's been serving barbecue out of that trailer since 1997. It's called Bee Caves barbecue. Those guys, they put together some fantastic barbecue five days a week. They sell it until they're out, and then they close up the shop and they go fishing, and it's, you got to get there early, and when they're done, they're done, so I-- >> Yeah, is there a connection between people that make barbecue and people that put together Linux distributions? It sounds like a lot of the same thing. >> Maybe so, maybe so, yeah. I've got a smoker out back. I like to smoke meat as much as I can. >> Absolutely, all right, well, Dustin, really appreciate you joining us. Welcome to the >> Stu, thank you, Jim. >> Stu: CUBE alumni list now, and we'll be back with more coverage here from DockerCon 2017. You're watching theCUBE. (bright electronic music) >> I remember--