>>on the globe. It's the Cube with digital coverage of AWS reinvent 2020 sponsored by Intel, AWS and our community partners. Hello and welcome back to the Cubes Live coverage Cube live here in Palo Alto, California, with the Virtual Cube this year because we can't be there in person. I'm your host, John Fairy year. We're kicking off Day two of the three weeks of reinvent a lot of great leadership sessions to review, obviously still buzzing from the Andy Jassy three. Our keynote, which had so many storylines, is really hard to impact. We're gonna dig that into into into that today with Jerry Chan, who has been a Cube alumni since the beginning of our AWS coverage. Going back to 2013, Jerry was wandering the hallways as a um, in between. You were in between vm ware and V C. And then we saw you there. You've been on the Cube every year at reinvent with us. So special commentary from you. Thanks for coming on. >>Hey, John, Thanks for having me and a belated happy birthday as well. If everyone out there John's birthday was yesterday. So and hardest. Howard's working man in technology he spent his entire birthday doing live coverage of Amazon re events. Happy birthday, buddy. >>Well, I love my work. I love doing this. And reinvent is the biggest event of the year because it really is. It's become a bellwether and eso super excited to have you on. We've had great conversations by looking back at our conversations over the Thanksgiving weekend. Jerry, the stuff we were talking about it was very proposed that Jassy is leaning in with this whole messaging around change and horizontal scalability. He didn't really say that, but he was saying you could disrupt in these industries and still use machine learning. This was some of the early conversations we were having on the Cube. Now fast forward, more mainstream than ever before. So big, big part of the theme there. >>Yeah, it z you Amazon reinvent Amazon evolution to your point, right, because it's both reinventing what countries are using with the cloud. But also what Amazon's done is is they're evolving year after year with their services. So they start a simple infrastructure, you know, s three and e c. Two. And now they're building basically a lot of what Andy said you actually deconstructed crm? Ah, lot of stuff they're doing around the call centers, almost going after Salesforce with kind of a deconstructed CRM services, which is super interesting. But the day you know, Amazon announces all those technologies, not to mention the AI stuff, the seminar stuff you have slack and inquired by Salesforce for $27.7 billion. So ah, lot of stuff going on in the cloud world these days, and it's funny part of it, >>you know, it really is interesting. You look up the slack acquisition by, um, by Salesforce. It's interesting, you know, That kind of takes slack out of the play here. I mean, they were doing really well again. Message board service turns into, um, or collaboration software. They hit the mainstream. They have great revenue. Is that going to really change the landscape of the industry for Salesforce? They've got to acquire it. It opens the door up from, or innovation. And it's funny you mention the contact Center because I was pressing Jassy on my exclusive one on one with him. Like they said, Andy, my my daughter and my sons, they don't use the phone. They're not gonna call. What's this? Is it a call center deal? And he goes, No, it's the It's about the contact. So think about that notion of the contact. It's not about the call center. It's the point of contact. Okay, Linked in is with Microsoft. You got slack and Salesforce Contact driven collaboration. Interesting kind of play for Microsoft to use voice and their data. What's your take on that? >>I think it's, um you know, I have this framework. As you know, I talked my friend systems of engagement over systems intelligence and systems record. Right? And so you could argue voice email slack because we're all different systems of engagement, and they sit on top of system of record like CRM customer support ticketing HR. Something like that. Now what sells first did by buying slack is they now own a system engagement, right? Not on Lee is slack. A system engagement for CRM, but also system engagement for E. R. P Service. Now is how you interact with a bunch of applications. And so if you think about sales for strategy in the space, compete against Marcus Soft or serves now or other large AARP's now they own slack of system engagement, that super powerful way to actually compete against rival SAS companies. Because if you own the layer engagement layer, you can now just intermediate what's in the background. Likewise, the context center its own voice. Email, chat messaging, right? You can just inter mediate this stuff in the back, and so they're trying to own the system engagement. And then, likewise, Facebook just bought that company customer a week ago for a billion dollars, which also Omni Channel support because it is chat messaging voice. It's again the system engagement between End User, which could be a customer or could be employees. >>You know, this really gonna make Cit's enterprise has been so much fun over the past 10 years, I gotta say, in the past five, you know, it's been even more fun, has become or the new fun area, you know, And the impact to enterprise has been interesting because and we're talking about just engaging system of record. This is now the new challenge for the enterprise. So I wanna get your thoughts, Jerry, because how you see the Sea, X O's and CSOs and the architects out there trying to reinvent the enterprise. Jassy saying Look and find the truth. Be on the right side of history here. Certainly he's got himself service interest there, but there is a true band eight with Cove it and with digital acceleration for the enterprise to change. Um, given all these new opportunities Thio, revolutionize or disrupt or radically improve, what's the C. C X's do? What's your take on? How do you see that? >>It's increasingly messy for the CXS, and I don't I don't envy them, right? Because back in the day they kind of controlled all the I t spend and kind of they had a standard of what technologies they use in the company. And then along came Amazon in cloud all of sudden, like your developers and Dio Hey, let me swipe my credit card and I'm gonna access to a bunch of a P I s around computing stories. Likewise. Now they could swipe the credit card and you strike for billing, right? There's a whole bunch of services now, so it becomes incumbent upon CSOs. They need Thio new set of management tools, right? So not only just like, um, security tools they need, they need also observe ability, tools, understanding what services are being used by the customers, when and how. And I would say the following John like CSOs is both a challenge for them. But I think if I was a C X, so I'll be pretty excited because now I have a bunch of other weapons and other bunch of services I could offer. My end users, my developers, my employees, my customers and, you know it's exciting for them is not only could they do different things, but they also changed how their business being done. And so I think both interact with their end users. Be a chat like slack or be a phone like a contact center or instagram for your for your for your kids. It's actually a new challenge if I were sick. So it's it's time to build again, you know, I think Cove it has said it is time to build again. You can build >>to kind of take that phrase from the movie Shawshank Redemption. Get busy building or get busy dying. Kinda rephrase it there. And that's kind of the theme I'm seeing here because covert kind of forced people saying, Look, this things like work at home. Who would have thought 100% people would be working at home? Who would have thought that now the workloads gonna change differently? So it's an opportunity to deconstruct or distant intermediate these services. And I think, you know, in all the trends that I've seen over my career, it's been those inflection points where breaking the monolith or breaking the proprietary piece of it has always been an opportunity for for entrepreneur. So you know, and and for companies, whether you're CEO or startup by decomposing and you can come in and create value E I think to me, snowflake going public on the back of Amazon. Basically, this is interesting. I mean, so you don't have to be. You could kill one feature and nail it and go big. >>I think we talked to the past like it's Amazon or Google or Microsoft Gonna win. Everything is winner take all winner take most, and you could argue that it's hard to find oxygen as a start up in a broad platform play. But we think Snowflake and other companies have done and comes like mongo DB, for example, elastic have shown that if you can pick a service or a problem space and either developed like I p. That's super deep or own developer audience. You can actually fight the big guys. The Big Three cloud vendors be Amazon, Google or or market soft in different markets. And I think if you're a startup founder, you should not be afraid of competing with the big cloud vendors because there there are success patterns and how you can win and you know and create a lot of value. So I have found Investor. I'm super excited by that because, you know, I don't think you're gonna find a company takedown Amazon completely because they're just the scale and the network effects is too large. But you can create a lot of value and build Valuable comes like snowflake in and around the Amazon. Google Microsoft Ecosystem. >>Yeah, I want to get your thoughts. You have one portfolio we've covered rock rock set, which does a lot of sequel. Um, one of your investments. Interesting part of the Kino yesterday was Andy Jassy kind of going after Microsoft saying Windows sequel server um, they're targeting that with this new, uh, tool, but, you know, sucks in the database of it is called the Babel Fish for Aurora for post Chris sequel. Um, well, how was your take on that? I mean, obviously Microsoft big. Their enterprise sales tactics are looking like more like Oracle, which he was kind of hinting at and commenting on. But sequel is Lingua Franca for data >>correct. I think we went to, like, kind of a no sequel phase, which was kind of a trendy thing for a while and that no sequel still around, not only sequel like mongo DB Document TV. Kind of that interface still holds true, but your point. The world speaks sequel. All your applications be sequel, right? So if you want backwards, compatibility to your applications speaks equal. If you want your tire installed base of employees that no sequel, we gotta speak sequel. So, Rock said, when the first public conversations about what they're building was on on the key with you and Me and vent hat, the founder. And what Rock said is doing their building real time. Snowflake Thio, Lack of better term. It's a real time sequel database in the cloud that's super elastic, just like Snowflake is. But unlike snowflake, which is a data warehouse mostly for dashboards and analytics. Rock set is like millisecond queries for real time applications, and so think of them is the evolution of where cloud databases air going is not only elastic like snowflake in the cloud like Snowflake. We're talking 10 15 millisecond queries versus one or two second queries, and I think what any Jassy did and Amazon with bowel officials say, Hey, Sequels, Legal frank of the cloud. There's a large installed base of sequel server developers out there and applications, and we're gonna use Babel fish to kind of move those applications from on premise the cloud or from old workload to the new workloads. And, I think, the name of the game. For for cloud vendors across the board, big and small startups thio Google markets, often Amazon is how do you reduce friction like, How do you reduce friction to try a new service to get your data in the cloud to move your data from one place to the next? And so you know, Amazon is trying to reduce friction by using Babel fish, and I think it is a great move by them. >>Yeah, by the way. Not only is it for Aurora Post Chris equal, they're also open sourcing it. So that's gonna be something that is gonna be interesting to play out. Because once they open source it essentially, that's an escape valve for locking. I mean, if you're a Microsoft customer, I mean, it ultimately is. Could be that Gateway drug. It's like it is ultimately like, Hey, if you don't like the licensing, come here. Now there's gonna be some questions on the translations. Um, Vince, um, scuttlebutt about that. But we'll see it's open source. We'll see what goes on. Um great stuff on on rocks that great. Great. Start up next. Next, uh, talk track I wanna get with you is You know, over the years, you know, we've talked about your history. We're gonna vm Where, uh, now being a venture capitalist. Successful, wanted Greylock. You've seen the waves, and I would call it the two ways pre cloud Early days of cloud. And now, with co vid, we're kind of in the, you know, not just born in the cloud Total cloud scale cloud operations. This is kind of what jazz he was going after. E think I tweeted Cloud is eating the world and on premise and the edges. What it's hungry for. It kind of goof on mark injuries since quote a software eating the world. This is where it's going. So it's a whole another chapter coming. You saw the pre cloud you saw Cloud. Now we've got basically global I t everything else >>It's cloud only I would say, You know, we saw pre cloud right the VM ware days and before that he called like, you know, data centers. I would say Amazon lawns of what, 6 4007, the Web services. So the past 14 15 years have been what I've been calling cloud transition, right? And so you had cos technologies that were either doing on migration from on premise and cloud or hybrid on premise off premise. And now you're seeing a generation of technologies and companies. Their cloud only John to your point. And so you could argue that this 15 year transitions were like, you know, Thio use a bad metaphor like amphibians. You're half in the water, half on land, you know, And like, you know, you're not You're not purely cloud. You're not purely on premise, but you can do both ways, and that's great. That's great, because that's a that's a dominant architecture today. But come just like rock set and snowflake, your cloud only right? They're born in the cloud, they're built on the cloud And now we're seeing a generation Startups and technology companies that are cloud only. And so, you know, unlike you have this transitionary evolution of like amphibians, land and sea. Now we have ah, no mammals, whatever that are Onley in the cloud Onley on land. And because of that, you can take advantage of a whole different set of constraints that are their cloud. Only that could build different services that you can't have going backwards. And so I think for 2021 forward, we're going to see a bunch of companies or cloud only, and they're gonna look very, very different than the previous set of companies the past 15 years. And as an investor, as you covering as analysts, is gonna be super interesting to see the difference. And if anything, the cloud only companies will accelerate the move of I t spending the move of mawr developers to the cloud because the cloud only technologies are gonna be so much more compelling than than the amphibians, if you will. >>Yeah, insisting to see your point. And you saw the news announcement had a ton of news, a ton of stage making right calls, kind of the democratization layer. We'll look at some of the insights that Amazon's getting just as the monster that they are in terms of size. The scope of what? Their observation spaces. They're seeing all these workloads. They have the Dev Ops guru. They launched that Dev Ops Guru thing I found interesting. They got data acquisition, right? So when you think about these new the new data paradigm with cloud on Lee, it opens up new things. Um, new patterns. Um, S o. I think I think to me. I think that's to me. I see where this notion of agility moves to a whole nother level, where it's it's not just moving fast, it's new capabilities. So how do you How do you see that happening? Because this is where I think the new generation is gonna come in and be like servers. Lambs. I like you guys actually provisioned E c. Two instances before I was servers on data centers. Now you got ec2. What? Lambda. So you're starting to see smaller compute? Um, new learnings, All these historical data insights feeding into the development process and to the application. >>I think it's interesting. So I think if you really want to take the next evolution, how do you make the cloud programmable for everybody? Right. And I think you mentioned stage maker machine learning data scientists, the sage maker user. The data scientists, for example, does not on provisioned containers and, you know, kodama files and understand communities, right? Like just like the developed today. Don't wanna rack servers like Oh, my God, Jerry, you had Iraq servers and data center and install VM ware. The generation beyond us doesn't want to think about the underlying infrastructure. You wanna think about it? How do you just program my app and program? The cloud writ large. And so I think where you can see going forward is two things. One people who call themselves developers. That definition has expanded the past 10, 15 years. It's on Lee growing, so everyone is gonna be developed right now from your white collar knowledge worker to your hard core infrastructure developer. But the populist developers expanding especially around machine learning and kind of the sage maker audience, for sure. And then what's gonna happen is, ah, law. This audience doesn't want to care about the stuff you just mentioned, John in terms of the online plumbing. So what Amazon Google on Azure will do is make that stuff easy, right? Or a starved could make it easy. And I think that the move towards land and services that moved specifically that don't think about the underlying plumbing. We're gonna make it easy for you. Just program your app and then either a startup, well, abstract away, all the all the underlying, um, infrastructure bits or the big three cloud vendors to say, you know, all this stuff would do in a serverless fashion. So I think serverless as, ah paradigm and have, quite frankly, a battlefront for the Big Three clouds and for startups is probably one in the front lines of the next generation. Whoever owns this kind of program will cloud model programming the Internet program. The cloud will be maybe the next platform the next 10 or 15 years. I still have two up for grabs. >>Yeah, I think that is so insightful. I think that's worth calling out. I think that's gonna be a multi year, um, effort. I mean, look at just how containers now, with ks anywhere and you've got the container Service of control plane built in, you got, you know, real time analytics coming in from rock set. And Amazon. You have pinned Pandora Panorama appliance that does machine learning and computer vision with sensors. I mean, this is just a whole new level of purpose built stuff software powered software operated. So you have this notion of Dev ops going to hand in the glove software and operations? Kind of. How do you operate this stuff? So I think the whole new next question was Okay, this is all great. But Amazon's always had this problem. It's just so hard. Like there's so much good stuff. Like, who do you hired operate it? It is not yet programmable. This has been a big problem for them. Your thoughts on that, >>um e think that the data illusion around Dev ops etcetera is the solution. So also that you're gonna have information from Amazon from startups. They're gonna automate a bunch of the operations. And so, you know, I'm involved to come to Kronos Fear that we talked about the past team kind of uber the Bilson called m three. That's basically next generation data dog. Next generation of visibility platform. They're gonna collect all the data from the applications. And once they have their your data, they're gonna know how to operate and automate scaling up, scaling down and the basic remediation for you. So you're going to see a bunch of tools, take the information from running your application infrastructure and automate exactly how to scale and manager your app. And so AI and machine learning where large John is gonna be, say, make a lot of plumbing go away or maybe not completely, but lets you scale better. So you, as a single system admin are used. A single SRE site reliability engineer can scale and manage a bigger application, and it's all gonna be around automation and and to your point, you said earlier, if you have the data, that's a powerful situations. Once have the data can build models on it and can start building solutions on the data. And so I think What happens is when Bill this program of cloud for for your, you know, broad development population automating all this stuff becomes important. So that's why I say service or this, You know, automation of infrastructure is the next battleground for the cloud because whoever does that for you is gonna be your virtualized back and virtualized data center virtualized SRE. And if whoever owns that, it's gonna be a very, very strategic position. >>Yeah, it's great stuff. This is back to the theme of this notion of virtualization is now gone beyond server virtualization. It's, you know, media virtualization with the Cube. My big joke here with the Q virtual. But it's to your point. It's everything can now be replicated in software and scale the cloud scale. So it's super big opportunity for entrepreneurs and companies. Thio, pivot and differentiate. Uh, the question I have for you next is on that thread Huge edge discussion going on, right. So, you know, I think I said it two years ago or three years ago. The data center is just a edges just a big fat edge. Jassy kind of said that in his keynote Hey, looks at that is just a Nedum point with his from his standpoint. But you have data center. You have re alleges you've got five G with wavelength. This local zone concept, which is, you know, Amazon in these metro areas reminds me the old wireless point of presence kind of vibe. And then you've got just purpose built devices like cameras and factory. So huge industrial innovation, robotics, meet software. I mean, whole huge edge development exploding, Which what's your view of this? And how do you look at that from? Is an investor in industry, >>I think edges both the opportunity for start ups and companies as well as a threat to Amazon, right to the reason why they have outposts and all the stuff the edges if you think about, you know, decentralizing your application and moving into the eggs from my wearable to my home to my car to my my city block edges access Super interesting. And so a couple things. One companies like Cloudflare Fastly company I'm involved with called Kato Networks that does. SAS is secure access service edge write their names and the edges In the category definition sassy is about How do you like get compute to the edge securely for your developers, for your customers, for your workers, for end users and what you know comes like Cloudflare and Kate have done is they built out a network of pops across the world, their their own infrastructure So they're not dependent upon. You know, the big cloud providers, the telco providers, you know, they're partnering with Big Cloud, their parting with the telcos. But they have their own kind of system, our own kind of platform to get to the edge. And so companies like Kato Networks in Cloud Player that have, ah, presence on the edge and their own infrastructure more or less, I think, are gonna be in a strategic position. And so Kate was seen benefits in the past year of Of of Cove it and locked down because more remote access more developers, Um, I think edge is gonna be a super great area development going forward. I think if you're Amazon, you're pushing to the edge aggressively without post. I think you're a developer startup. You know, creating your own infrastructure and riding this edge wave could be a great way to build a moat against a big cloud guy. So I'm super excited. You think edge in this whole idea of your own infrastructure. Like what Kato has done, it is gonna be super useful going forward. And you're going to see more and more companies. Um, spend the money to try to copy kind of, ah, Cloudflare Kato presence around the world. Because once you own your own kind of, um, infrastructure instead of pops and you're less depend upon them a cloud provider, you're you're in a good position because there's the Amazon outage last week and I think like twilio and a bunch of services went down for for a few hours. If you own your own set of pops, your independent that it is actually really, really secure >>if you and if they go down to the it's on you. But that was the kinesis outage that they had, uh, they before Thanksgiving. Um, yeah, that that's a problem. So on this on. So I guess the question for you on that is that Is it better to partner with Amazon or try to get a position on the edge? Have them either by you or computer, create value or coexist? How do you see that that strategy move. Do you coexist? Do you play with them? >>E think you have to co exist? I think that the partner coexist, right? I think like all things you compete with Amazon. Amazon is so broad that will be part of Amazon and you're gonna compete with and that's that's fair game, you know, like so Snowflake competes against red shift, but they also part of Amazon's. They're running Amazon. So I think if you're a startup trying to find the edge, you have to coexist in Amazon because they're so big. Big cloud, right, The Big three cloud Amazon, Google, Azure. They're not going anywhere. So if you're a startup founder, you definitely coexist. Leverage the good things of cloud. But then you gotta invest in your own edge. Both both figure early what? Your edge and literally the edge. Right. And I think you know you complement your edge presence be it the home, the car, the city block, the zip code with, you know, using Amazon strategically because Amazon is gonna help you get two different countries, different regions. You know you can't build a company without touching Amazon in some form of fashion these days. But if you're a star found or doing strategically, how use Amazon and picking how you differentiate is gonna be key. And if the differentiation might be small, John. But it could be super valuable, right? So maybe only 10 or 15%. But that could be ah Holton of value that you're building on top of it. >>Yeah, and there's a little bit of growth hack to with Amazon if you you know how it works. If you compete directly against the core building blocks like a C two has three, you're gonna get killed, right? They're gonna kill you if the the white space is interest. In the old days in Microsoft, you had a white space. They give it to you or they would roll you over and level you out. Amazon. If you're a customer and you're in a white space and do better than them, they're cool with that. They're like, basically like, Hey, if you could innovate on behalf of the customer, they let you do that as long as you have a big bill. Yeah. Snowflakes paying a lot of money to Amazon. Sure, but they also are doing a good job. So again, Amazon has been very clear on that. If you do a better job than us for, the customer will do it. But if they want Amazon Red Shift, they want Amazon Onley. They can choose that eso kind of the playbook. >>I think it is absolutely right, John is it sets from any jassy and that the Amazon culture of the customer comes first, right? And so whatever is best for the customer that's like their their mission statement. So whatever they do, they do for the customer. And if you build value for the customer and you're on top of Amazon, they'll be happy. You might compete with some Amazon services, which, no, the GM of that business may not be happy, but overall. Net Net. Amazon's getting a share of those dollars that you're that you're charging the customer getting a share of the value you're creating. They're happy, right? Because you know what? The line rising tide floats all the boats. So the Mork cloud usage is gonna only benefit the Big Three cloud providers Amazon, particularly because they're the biggest of the three. But more and more dollars go the cloud. If you're helping move more. Absolute cloud helping build more solutions in the cloud. Amazon is gonna be happy because they know that regardless of what you're doing, you will get a fraction of those dollars. Now, the key for a startup founder and what I'm looking for is how do we get mawr than you know? A sliver of the dollars. How to get a bigger slice of the pie, if you will. So I think edge and surveillance or two areas I'm thinking about because I think there are two areas where you can actually invest, own some I p owned some surface area and capture more of the value, um, to use a startup founder and, you know, are built last t to Amazon. >>Yeah. Great. Great thesis. Jerry has always been great. You've been with the Cube since the beginning on our first reinvented 2013. Um, and so we're now on our eighth year. Great to see your success. Great investment. You make your world class investor to great firm Greylock. Um great to have you on from your perspective. Final take on this year. What's your view of Jackie's keynote? Just in general, What's the vibe. What's the quick, um, soundbite >>from you? First, I'm so impressed and you can do you feel like a three Archy? No more or less by himself. Right then, that is, that is, um, that's a one man show, and I'm All of that is I don't think I could pull that off. Number one. Number two It's, um, the ability to for for Amazon to execute at so many different levels of stack from semiconductors. Right there, there there ai chips to high level services around healthcare solutions and legit solutions. It's amazing. So I would say both. I'm impressed by Amazon's ability. Thio go so broad up and down the stack. But also, I think the theme from From From Andy Jassy is like It's just acceleration. It's, you know now that we will have things unique to the cloud, and that could be just a I chips unique to the cloud or the services that are cloud only you're going to see a tipping point. We saw acceleration in the past 15 years, John. He called like this cloud transition. But you know, I think you know, we're talking about 2021 beyond you'll see a tipping point where now you can only get certain things in the cloud. Right? And that could be the underlying inference. Instances are training instances, the Amazons giving. So all of a sudden you as a founder or developer, says, Look, I guess so much more in the cloud there's there's no reason for me to do this hybrid thing. You know, Khyber is not gonna go away on Prem is not going away. But for sure. We're going to see, uh, increasing celebration off cloud only services. Um, our edge only services or things. They're only on functions that serve like serverless. That'll be defined the next 10 years of compute. And so that for you and I was gonna be a space and watch >>Jerry Chen always pleasure. Great insight. Great to have you on the Cube again. Great to see you. Thanks for coming on. >>Congrats to you guys in the Cube. Seven years growing. It's amazing to see all the content put on. So you think it isn't? Just Last point is you see the growth of the curve growth curves of the cloud. I'd be curious Johnson, The growth curve of the cube content You know, I would say you guys are also going exponential as well. So super impressed with what you guys have dealt. Congratulations. >>Thank you so much. Cute. Virtual. We've been virtualized. Virtualization is coming here, or Cubans were not in person this year because of the pandemic. But we'll be hybrid soon as events come back. I'm John for a year. Host for AWS reinvent coverage with the Cube. Thanks for watching. Stay tuned for more coverage all day. Next three weeks. Stay with us from around the globe. It's the Cube with digital coverage of aws reinvent 2020 sponsored by Intel >>and AWS. Welcome back here to our coverage here on the Cube of AWS.

>> live from Boston, Massachusetts. It's the Cube covering A W s reinforce 2019 brought to you by Amazon Web service is and its ecosystem partners. >> Hey, welcome back, everyone to Cubes. Live coverage here in Boston, Massachusetts for eight of us reinforced Amazon Web service is inaugural event around Cloud Security. I'm Jeffrey Day Volante. Two days of coverage. We're winding down Day two. We're excited to have a year in The Cube Special guest, part of Big and that one of the big announcements. Well, I think it's big. Nerdy Announcement is the automated reasoning. Byron Cook, director of the Automated Reasoning Group within AWS. Again, this is part of the team that's gonna help figure out security use automation to augment humans. Great to have you on big part of show here. Thanks very much to explain the automated reasoning group. Verner Vogel had a great block post on All things distributed applies formal verification techniques in an innovative way to cloud security and compliance for our customers. For our own there's developers. What does that mean? Your math? >> Yeah, let me try. I'll give you one explanation, and if I puzzle, you all try to explain a different way. 300 So do you know the Pythagorean Theorem? Yeah, sure, Yeah. So? So that the path I agree in theory is about all triangles that was proved in approximately B. C. It's the proof is a finite description in logic as to why it's true and holds for all possible triangles. So we're basically using This same approach is to prove properties of policies of networks of programs, for example, crypto virtualization, the storage, et cetera. So we write software. This finds proofs in mathematics and this the proofs are the same as what you could found for thuggery and should apply into >> solve problems that become these mundane tasks of checking config files, making sure things are that worries kind of that's I'll give you an example. So so that's two in which is the T. L s implementation used, for example, in history. But the large majority >> of AWS has approximately 12,000 state holding elements, so that with if you include the stack of the heat usage, so the number >> of possible >> states it could reach us to to the 12,000. And if you wanted to show that the T. L s handshake Implementation is correct or the H Mac implementation is correct. Deterministic random bit generator implementation is correct, which is what we do using conventional methods like trying to run tests on it. So you would need, if you have, like, 1,000,000 has, well, microprocessors and you would need many more lifetimes in the sun is gonna admit light at 3.4 $4,000,000,000 a year to test to exhaustively test the system. So what we do is we rather than just running a bunch of inputs on the code, we we represent that as the mathematical system and then we use proof techniques, auto automatically search for a proof and with our tools, we in about 10 minutes or able to prove all those properties of s two in the way of your intimidates. And then we apply that to pieces of s three pieces of easy to virtual ization infrastructure on. Then, uh, what we've done is we've realized that customers had a lot of questions about their networks and their policies. So, for example, they have a complicated network worldwide different different availability zones, different regions on. They want to ask. Hey, does there exist away for this machine to connect to this other machine. Oh, are you know, to do all this all SS H traffic coming in that eventually gets to my Web server, go through a bastion host, which is the best, best practice. And then we can answer that question again, using logic. So we take the representation that semantics of easy to networking the policy, the network from the customer, and then the question we're asking, expressing logic. And we throw a big through their call ifthere improver, get the answer back. And then same for policy. >> So you're analyzing policies, >> policies, networks, programs, >> networks, connections. Yeah, right. And it to the tooling is sell cova. Eso >> eso eso basically way come with We come with an approach and then we have many tools that implement the approach on different, different problems. That's how you apply Volkova all underneath. It's all uses of a kind of tool called SMT inside. So there's a south's over, uh, proves theorems about formula and proposition. A logic and SMT is sat modular theories. Those tools can prove properties of problems expressed in first order logic. And so what we do is we take the, for example, if you have a question about your policies answering, answering semantic level questions about policies is actually a piece space problem. So that's harder than NP complete. We express the question in logic and then call the silvery and they get their answer back on Marshall it back. And that's what Volkova does. So that's calling a tool called CVC four, which is which is an open source. Prove er and we wenzel Koval. We take the policy three question encoded to logic. Call a Silver and Marshall answer back. >> What's the What's the root of this? I mean, presumably there's some academic research that was done. You guys were applying it for your specific use case, But can you share with this kind of He's the origination of this. >> So the first Impey complete problem was discovered by a cook and not not me. Another cook the early seventies on. So he proved that the proposition a ll satisfy ability problem is impeccably and meanwhile, there's been a lot of research from the sixties. So Davis and Putnam, for example, I think a paper from the mid sixties where they were, we're trying to answer the question of can we efficiently solved this NP complete problem proposition will satisfy ability on that. Researchers continue. There have been a bunch of breakthroughs, and so now we're really starting to see very from. There's a big breakthrough in 2001 on, then some and then some further breakthroughs in the 5 4008 range. So what we're seeing is that the solvers air getting better and better. So there's an international competition of Let's Save, usually about 30 silvers. And there's a study recently where they took all of the winners from this competition each year 2001 5 4008 30 2002 to 2011 and compared them on the same bench marks and hardware, and the 2002 silver is able to solve 1/4 of the benchmarks in the 2011 solved practically all of them and then the the 2019 silvers, or even better. Nowadays they can take problems and logic that have many tens of millions of variables and solve them very efficiently. So we're really using the power of those underlying solvers and marshaling the questions to those to those overs, codifying thinking math. And that's the math. The hour is you gave a talk in one sessions around provable security. Kind of the title proves provable. >> What's what is that? What is that? Intel. Can you just explain that concept and sure, in the top surfaces. So, uh, uh, >> so mathematical logic. You know, it's 2000 years old, right? So and has refined Sobule, for example, made logic less of a philosophical thing and more of a mathematical thing. Uh, and and then automated reasoning was sort of developed in the sixties, where you take algorithms and apply algorithms to find proofs and mathematical logic. And then provable security is the application of automated reasoning to questions and security and compliance. So we you wanna prove absence of memory, corruption errors and C code You won't approve termination of of event handling routines that are supposed to handle security events. All of those questions, their properties of your program. And you can use these tools to automatically or uh oh, our find proofs and then check The proofs have been found manually. That's what that's >> where approvable security fix. What was the makeup of the attendee list where people dropping this where people excited was all bunch of math geeks. You have a cross section of great security people here, and they're deep dive conversations Not like reinvent this show. This is really deep security. What was some of the feedback and makeup of the attendees? >> Give you two answers because I actually gave to talks. And the and the answers are a little bit different because the subject of the talk So there was one unprovable security, which was a basically the foundation of logic And how we how Cheers since Volkova and our program, because we also prove correctness of crypto and so on. So those tools and so that was largely a, uh uh, folks who had heard about it. And we're wanting to know more, and we're and we're going to know how we're using it and trying to learn there was a second talk, which was about the application of it to compliance. So that was with Tomic, Andrew, who is the CEO of Coal Fire, one of the third party auditors that AWS uses in a lot of customers used and also Chad Wolf, who's vice president of security, focused on compliance. And so the three of us spoke about how we're using it internally within eight of us to automate, >> uh, >> certification compliance, sort of a commission on. So that crowd was really interesting mixture of people interested in automated reasoning and people interested in compliance, which are two communities you wouldn't think normally hang together. But that's sort of like chocolate and peanut butter. It turns out to be a really great application, >> and they need to work together to, because it is the world. The action is they don't get stuck in the compliance and auditing fools engineering teams emerging with old school compliance nerds. So there's a really interesting, uh, sort of dynamic to proof that has a like the perfect use casing compliance. So the problem of like proving termination of programs is undecided ble proving problems and proposition a logic is np complete as all that sounds very hard, difficult and you use dearest six to solve this problem. But the thing is that once you've found a proof replaying, the proof is linear and size of the proof, so actually you could do extremely efficiently, and that has application and compliance. So one could imagine that you have, for example, PC I hip fed ramp. You have certain controls that you want to prove that the property like, for example, within a W s. We have a control that all data dressed must be encrypted. So we are using program verification tools, too. Show that of the code base. But now, once we've run that tool that constructs a proof like Euclid founded the sectarian serum that you can package up in a file hand to an auditor. And then a very simple, easy to understand third party open source tool could replay that proof. And so that becomes audit evidence. It's a scale of total examples >> wth e engineering problem. You're solving a security at scale. The business problem. You're solving it. Yeah. His customers are struggling. Just implementing There just >> aren't enough security professionals to hire right? So the old day is, the talk explains. It's out there all on YouTube's. The people watching the show can go check it out. But I am by the way I should I should make a plug for if you Google a W s provable security. There's a Web page on eight of us that has papers and videos and lots of information, so you might wanna check that out. I can't remember what I was answering now, but >> it's got links to the academic as >> well. Oh, yes. Oh, yes. That was the point that Tommy Kendra is pointing out, as in the old days, you would do an audit would come in to be a couple minutes box that we win this box. You check a few things to be a little network. Great. But now you have machines across the world, extremely complex networks, interaction between policies, networks, crypto, etcetera. And so there's There's no way a human or even a team of human could come in and have any reasonable chance of actually deeply understanding the system. So they just sort of check some stuff and then they call it success. And these tools really allow you to actually understand the entire system buyer and you guys doing some cutting edge work, >> folks watching and want to know how math translates into the real world with all your high school kids out their parents. This is stuff you learn in school like you could be played great work. I think I think this is cutting edge. I think math and the confidence of math intersects with groups. The compliance example audited example shows that world's gonna come together with math. I think this is a big mega trend. It's gonna not eliminate the human element. It's going augment that so great stuff, its final question just randomly. And while you're here, since your math guru we're always interested, we always covering our favorite topic of Blockchain, huh? We believe that a security conference is gonna soon have a Blockchain component because because of the mutability of it, there's a lot of math behind it. So as that starts to mature certainly Facebook entering him at their own currency. Whole nother conversation you don't want to have here is bring a lot of attention. So we see the intersection of security being a supply chain problem in the future. Your thoughts on that just generally. So So the problem of proving programs is undecided, and that means that you can't build a general solution. What you're gonna have to do is look >> for niche areas like device drivers, networks, policies, AP, I used to dream crypto et cetera, and then make the tools work for that area, and you will have to be comfortable with the idea that occasionally the tools aren't gonna be able to find an answer. And so the Amazon culture of being customer obsessed and working as closely as possible with the customer has been really helpful to my community of of logic, uh, full methods, practitioners, because they were really forced to work with a customer, understand the problem. So what I've been doing is listening to the customer on finding out what the problems with concerns. They are focusing my attention on that. And I haven't yet heard of, uh, of customers asking for mathematical proof on crypto currency Blockchain sorts of stuff. But I'm I I await further and you're intrigued. Yeah, I'm s I always like mathematics, but where we have been hearing customers asked for help is for Temple. We're working on free Our toss s o i o T applications Understand the networks that are connecting up the coyote to the cloud, understanding the correctness of machine learning. So why, why So I reused. I've done some machine learning. I've constructed a model. How do I know what it does? And is it compliant? Does it respect hip fed ramp PC, i et cetera, and some other issues like that. >> There's a lot of talk in the industry about quantum computing and creating nightmares for guys like you. How much thought given that you have any thing that you can share with us? >> Yes. Oh, there's there's work in the AWS crypto team preparing for the post quantum world. So imagine Adversary has quantum computer. And so there are proposals on eight of us has a number of proposals, and we've and those proposals have been implemented. So their standards and we've our team has been doing proof on the correctness of those. So, actually, in the one of my talks, I think the talk not with Chad and Tom. I show a demo of our work to prove the correctness of someplace quantum code. >> So, Byron, thank you for coming on the inside. Congratulations on the automated reason. Good to see it put in the practice and appreciate the commentary. Thank you very much. Thank you. Here for the first inaugural security cloud security event reinforced AWS is putting on cube coverage. I'm John Fairy with Day Volonte. Thanks for watching

>> Hello, everyone. This is a special presentation of the Cube. We're here in London at eight of us, one of eight of US locations in London. My name is Dave Volante and the Q We go, we'd like to go out to the events. We extract a signal from the noise and we've been following the ascendancy of a ws public sector from its early days. If you go back to two thousand thirteen, there was a significant moment in the history of eight of us where it won CIA contract a very large contract. CIA. It was contested by idea. My bm was used to kind of the what sometimes called the old guard the legacy companies used to selling into the government big, big contracts. And here comes this start up essentially eight of us taking away government business with CIA no less huge, huge contract. Well, IBM contested it. Judge Wheeler ruled against IBM for eight of us. And when reading that ruling, it was clear that the eight of US platform was superior to the IBM platform. He laid out the essentially the components of the R F P and the line by line and showed that a ws was the winner and virtually all of the line items. I think there was parody and won the reason why that was so important. It was that there were several factors there. One, It was a major milestone event. No, only Frito. Eight of us. But for cloud in general, if you think about security Ah, CIA, obviously very security conscious. It was the recognition that cloud actually could be more secure than on premises infrastructure. So the government was actually one of the first to kind of realise that and lean into that as a side effect, IBM had to go out and spend two billion dollars on soft layer toe actually compete in the cloud market Plys. So you had all these ripple effects Fast forward today to two thousand nineteen. You have the jet icon to contract a joint enterprise defense initiative. It's a ten billion dollar contract. A ws is in the lead for that contract. Oracle again another old Guard company has contested. And when you look through when when a company contests these bids, a whole lot of public information comes out. What? What the information suggested was that a single cloud the D o d determine that a single cloud was more secure, less complex and more cost effective. And so Oracle contested the the likelihood of an award to a single company because government contracts usually are awarded to multiple vendors. But in this case, because it's so critical tohave the data in one place so that they can serve the field better and responded the field better, the D o. D decided to use a single cloud. So oracles, you know, throwing off all rights of muck into the ring. Ah, basically asking the General Accountability Office to look at it. They did, Ggo said. If we're going to go with the D. O. D s decision, the D. O. D itself did an internal investigation. Now it's narrowed down to two vendors eight of us and Microsoft, and we believe that eight of us is the leading contender. Why is that? It's because eight of us says the most services. It's the most advanced, the highest levels of security and certifications within the government that are necessary to win these types of contracts. Why don't I spend so much time on these things? There's a two milestone events, the CIA contract in two thousand thirteen and what will soon to be the Jet I contract in two thousand nineteen. And what we're seeing is Amazon Web services, a thirty billion dollars run rate company growing at forty plus percent per annum. It's just a massive flywheel effect that we always talk about on the Cube. So we're here in London because we wanted to see how the public sector activities of Amazon are translating into the European markets. So we're here at a special public sector mini summit, if you will. There's a healthcare predate going on. This is ahead of the eight of US London summit, and we're siphoning off a number of the practitioners in and and startups software companies. Eight of US partners in the health care industry, as well as a WS executives particularly focused on the public sector today. So we're doing this sort of. We followed the career of Teresa Carlson for a number of years, seen the ascendancy of a ws public sector. We've covered ah, public sector summit in D. C. We flew to Bahrain last year. John Fairy of my business partner did the Bahrain summit. Bahrain was the first country in the Middle East to declare cloud first. So ah, critical location in the Middle East and you're seeing it now. Europe across a number of industries, obviously n hs than Ethan's. National Health Service is a very prominent in in the UK in a in a big consumer of services all kinds of startups and other software companies trying to sell and helped transform The N H s N hs has ah put forth a half a billion dollars nearly a half a billion dollar pound initiative on modernization. Ah, lot of that modernization is evolving the cloud. So the cube is here. We're trying to peel back the onion, understand what's going on here. Who were the winners? Who was going to get affected? Practitioners of startups, CEOs, nonprofit organizations, NGOs, executives from a ws and across the industry. So we'LL be here. We have three events this week in Ah in London here today at eight of US headquarters in London. Ah, tonight we have an impact investor event and then tomorrow we're at the eight of us Summit in AA in London at the XL Center. So keep it right here. Watch this channel. Check out silicon angle dot com For all the news, check out the cube dot net, which is where we host all these videos. And of course, we could bond downward for all the research. So thank you for watching and keep it right there. And you're watching the Cube this day, Volante.

okay we're back at vmworld twenty twelve i'm john fairy with SiliconANGLE calm this is the cube this is our flagship telecast we go out to the events extract a signal from the noise and share that with you i'm joe and stu miniman my co-host with this segment and martine casado the co-founder of nicera you guys are ranking number one on our trending tool that we built under networking because it moved up to the top of the list because of vmworld company had spent a billion dollars for you guys jaishree from Arista called you guys the Instagram of networking kind of tongue-in-cheek on the huge buyout but hey congratulations great wired story today SR with you guys we've done about the talent you have and you brought over the vmworld and you're the top story here so congratulations thank you welcome to the cube thank you so take us through the logic and your motion around past year okay up until the buyout what a roller coaster so just share with us personally from Europe as an entrepreneur what was it like what highlights of what happened well I guess I've been very focused on changing networking right so for me it's been largely a technical ride and since we started the company five years ago we've been focusing on developing core technology and we did that for the first three years and then the last year to us was primarily about execution and customer engagement and so you know we've spent a lot of time proving the technology getting into production doing the support and fixing out that model and so it turned out is a very natural transition point when the acquisition happened because we had gotten traction we had starting to realize how difficult it is to address a market as large as this within a small start-up and so it was very welcome to come join a much larger company where we can kind of provide this as a much box so you guys have some big backers obviously you know they're all it's all well documented in the valley but every entrepreneur has that moments like wait a minute is this what I wanted is this tea but the dollars was so good and vmware's asti growing company what clicked for you what made you go is this the right thing take us through that decision you know absolutely so I mean like to me business guides behavior and at the end of the day the goal is is how do you change networking and have a very very firm belief that the access layer to that network is moving from within the network towards the edge and so we wanted to develop technologies that can use this position to re-implement networking and software and so once you get the core technology done once you prove it out with large customers once you prove out the market the question is is kind of what is the best way to have the biggest impact and I think in some respects you can look at vmware is one of the largest networking companies in the in the world just based on port count right the number of virtual ports that they control is as large as any large networking vendor so this is the opportunity of a lifetime to change in industry so like I've been doing this now you know sdn since those doing my PhD at stanford for so going on 10 years now and this is the the opportunity of a lifetime to actually have broad broad like planet scale impact well congratulations certainly you disrupted the market not only in the validation of the acquisition but as you guys were moving out and talking about some of the deployments you guys were doing it just came out of left field for most people but in the inside baseball sure people knew it was going on in terms of like how you guys are disrupting so so congratulations thank you here I want to talk about is also the messaging here at vmworld very solid around suffered to find datacenter sure and that really kind of brings you into a whole nother beyond networking so you know we've been covering converged infrastructure that's looking a look upon you know around house storage servers and networking so its bigger now than just networking right so now you're taking it to a whole nother leg of the journey so connect the dots out there for the folks between software virtualization and software-defined networking to this to the data center help them understand what is going to happen under that next leg of the journey yeah of course so we're all familiar with compute virtualization right I mean this is how vmware initially changed the world where the time it takes to provision a workload when from weeks to literally minutes like two minutes however I t isn't about single workloads ideas about applications and all the network services that those applications require for example firewalling or security or or monitoring debugging and so even though we reduce the time it took to provisional workload from weeks two minutes you still took days to do everything else that was required so if we take a broad scope if we take a broad look at a thai tea we still realize it still takes days to provision new applications and to provision new workloads and so the only way to get past this the next step that we want to take is to virtualize every aspect of infrastructure and so there's three of those there's there's compute which is virtualized their storage which we're making good progress on and there's network and network really is a pivot piece right it's the one piece that touches everything right it is between the compute in the storage it is between the different types of compute and so if you look at large data centers even cloud data centers the long pole in the tent and provisioning is the network so we must must virtualize that so the goal is the software-defined data center that's like everything's in software everything's totally dynamic you create it on demand you can move it its liquid it's like water it'll go anywhere but in order for this dream to be realized we've got to get the network out of the way and that's what the sierra does we've been talking about going to go and Wikibon we've just kicked up a whole kind of research section on what we're calling data infrastructure and really highlighting this modern era right and we kind of use a lot of sports analogies but you know a modern era meaning the new way not the old way right so you're a classic example of disruption in a new way so talk about the enablement that you see happening from a from a marker play standpoint just you know open your mind and share the crowds and vision around what you will enable with this because networking is has to be dynamic it has that makes total sense you guys have done it what's going to happen next in your mind's eye in terms of what the possibilities are yeah yeah absolutely so I think ultimately this is where we want to get to we want to build a platform that will provide that will recreate you know every Network Service and functionality in a virtualized manner in software from the edge and that means that there can be any service available anywhere over any type of hardware at any scale that's needed and it can be done all at virtualization timeframe so this is like you do an API call you get a virtual network abstraction you add a firewall to it you you configure ackles to it and so all of network configuration all of network services all of network operations become soft state it becomes like a VM image and it's available anywhere that you want it to and so that is the first step so I believe these transformations and systems and this happened many times in the past happen in two steps the first one is you virtualize and when you virtualize you offer the same thing but in a more flexible manner like when you virtualize compute you offered an x86 cpu but you did it in software after you virtualize you can actually change the operational paradigm like when you when they created compute virtualization they didn't immediately get to migration or snapshot or rewind all these other kind of operational benefits these came later so the first step is any networking anywhere you want at any scale automatically and then the second step is like drastically changing the operational paradigm so you can do things like better security so you can rewind configuration state I mean things that we can't even think about today because now we have this ultimate point of indirection that's virtualized this virtualized layer and who's the candidate for these developers just admins net admins all the above is it going to be software programmatic I mean how does that it takes DevOps right to a level of functionality that is just mind-boggling so yeah who's the new personnel yeah it was like who's life does this impact think what happens called a CI easy out there well I mean it's a good question whose life does this impact I mean I mean immediately anybody that's building out a data center like a cloud architect is going to have this this primitive that that they can use to architect better system just like you gave them a virtual machine they use that as a primitive for building better data centers now we're giving them virtual networks as a primitive build virtual data centers so the cloud architects job gets easier application developers don't have to worry about the basics of you know the way networks work our network configuration operations will have a lot more flexibility and the virtual layer of where they can move things around as far as the physical networking layer the problem actually becomes quite a bit simpler but you still have to focus the on the problem of building a physical network so for example when server virtualization came around you didn't like reduce the need for servers you needed more servers and just like the same thing will happen with with network virtualization which is you'll still need physical networks and they're going to probably have to be better physical networks but the problem now is more of how do you build a physical network with high capacity that can support any workload and less about doing all the operational stuff you do today how does an impact we just had chris hoffman from juniper who's now a worker he's been a big security buff a great guest for us but we just were just riffing on the security problems right so give us your perspective on how this new canvas of software-defined virtualization is gonna impact security paradise yeah so I mean I think there are a couple of answers i actually think ultimately the security model is improved honestly so yeah the original work was done with the intelligence community actually the the original funding for nasira came from the intelligence community my background I used to work for the intelligence agencies and when you move everything to software we already have a fundamental security paradigm which is crust consolidation in the hypervisor right and with network virtualization you follow the same paradigm which is you you entrust the hypervisor to enforce things like isolation enforce the security but now you've got a strongly authenticated endpoint there you're not guessing about things but but it requires the security community to evolve with the virtualization community so I think that there's much more of a socialization hurdle more of a social hurdle than a technical hurdle like all of the technology is there to do good security in the cloud I think getting the traditional vendors to evolve their tools into of all they're thinking it's much more difficult so I've got one more thing to add I actually think there's an opportunity to do security in entirely new ways ones that again can transform the industry so for example with virtualization you've got deep semantics into the workloads I mean you're in the hypervisor you can look inside the VMS you know who's using them know what applications they're using guy you could even know what the documents are being sent or or read or passed around and because you have this information at the edge if you virtualize the network as well you can pass this context into the network so now instead of like looking at packets and kind of trying to guess what application there is by looking at traffic you can actually get past like the ground truth information from the hypervisor so I think we have the potential so it's like drastically improved security that's Martine if you look at the networking industry there's lots of companies that have tried to change it in the past when you talk about innovation standards have a lot of times slow things down yep you know there's the legacy thought set you know great respect for ccie s but you know they have their install base in their way of doing things so you know there's there's so many pieces that make up networking and even the first time I saw your solution there's multiple standards and open you know groups working on this so you know how do you guys tease through and work through all of these issues yeah so clearly a very complex and multifarious question so I'm going to I'm going to attack one piece of it and we can go from there one of the primary benefits of actual virtualization like actual virtualization is that what you end up with should look like what you started with right so like if you're fundamentally changing an operational paradigm you're probably not doing virtualization so for example in a network virtualization solution the physical network is still a physical Network and it needs to be managed like a physical network with physical networking tools and in order to be fully virtualized the virtual abstraction I give you if I give you a virtual network that should also look like the networks that you've kind of grown to love as a child right they should have all the counters all the debugging the ability to interpose services right and so from from that standpoint you're still preserving the interfaces that people are used to it says there's more of them so like for example when I talk to a network operator today they're like oh this is confusing I've got virtualization I say actually instead of having one network that's really complicated you've got em and simple networks now you've got a very simple physical Network and if you got any virtual networks and they all all of the same interfaces that you use to manage it however there's one catch and that one catch is is there's an additional bit of information which is how do you map this virtual world to the physical world which happened in compute virtualization as well so like everybody understood a virtual machine everybody understood the physical machine but people weren't entirely sure how you debug the mapping between the two and that's incumbent as US is software providers and solution providers to provide that to provide the ability to to map from this kind of you know like platonic virtual reality down to this kind of gritty physical reality okay so from a standard standpoint you I mean you guys helped invent OpenFlow you guys created the open V switch you're heavily involved in OpenStack Andy there's been a lot of buzz since the acquisition about you know the involvement in OpenStack and yeah yeah kind of God how many people today everything in what's your thoughts on it yeah so let me also teach a tease apart you know two things before I get to that one so in networking standards are really important and like in the way standards work he's got a bunch of people that kind of go and talk about things and they design things they agree on them that's actually quite different than open source right and like their different processes different communities different rules of engagement so let me focus on the open source first then we'll go back to the standards thank you because I perfect just to give you a little bit foreshadowing like I hope the world goes open source not open Stan so can we do to it so but we'll get there right so as far as open source yes so I wrote the first version of open flow I mean it came out of my thesis right the first three employees of nicera created the first craft of open flow and it was it was just something that we wanted to use to control switches right i mean we wrote the first reference implementation the first open flow controller you know we seeded the stanford stuff of course i'm a consulting a faculty at stanford so i was involved there we also are the primary developers behind open V switch it's in the linux kernel you know we've probably put you know many millions of dollars in developing that it's used by competitors and partners alike that's used in many clouds and then we've heavily participated in an OpenStack in particular you know where the Delete on quantum which is the networking portion of OpenStack we've done a lot of development bear so as far as the merger is concerned the acquisitions concerned none of that will change we're fully committed to open V switch to OpenStack will continue and even escalate our contribution there quick quick note on OpenStack i was told that something for folks have actually entered some code into the OpenStack of storage just kind of curious about that so and we touched many areas of OpenStack and again the the networking piece touches everything and you know we do a lot of the development on quantum and we run actually nasira internally randa an openstack cloud for internal dev cloud and we've got thousands of VMs on it that we use it and so we're heavily we're like heavy users and contributors to both OpenStack and linux I mean if you look in Linux we've actually fixed a lot of the veal and issues in the kernel right so like and we're very very involved in open source but we're involved as users right like we don't sell you know linux we don't sell OpenStack but we do believe for to have a vibrant ecosystem is nice to have these tools out there and as we use the tools we fix them and we contribute it back okay what about multi hypervisor environments because that was one of the things that really impressed me about like the open D switch is it really doesn able kind of that that multi hypervisor even more than kind of heterogeneous switches it's the multi hypervisor piece yeah that's right so if you kind of zoom away like I think we've had like a fairly myopic focus in the industry on servers over the last 10 years and it's like if you zoom away from the server to a data center you end up in this realm of heterogeneous technologies multiple cloud management systems multiple hypervisors and so when we came up with our our initial strategy of building a network virtualization layer we knew networks touch everything we must support all of those technologies and so it was like a fundamental tenant of the technology that we might support all hypervisors and physical hardware switches as well because there are workloads that are not july's and so you know open V switch itself which is the V switch that we use it's in sports in kvm bare metal linux it's been ported to bsd it's been ported to other operating systems it's been ported to top-of-rack hardware switches so we can use all of them to do to do network virtualization so mark can I want to ask you about the sufferer define partnering strategy from a technical perspective obviously we're really big believers in open source as well they love that we'd love to think it's great and it's now a business model in the industry so it's great to see all that work as vmware now with you guys in the family there go to other unifying clouds so they took a multiple clouds at this point so you know what would you bring to the table from hyper Microsoft hyper-v environment and other big vendors HP Dell yeah Microsoft what can you bring to the table in working with those guys or are you outgoing are you talking to them and and if you were having those conversations what does what would those conversations be well so the product itself that we're developing and we we do bring to market now we will continue is a network virtualization platform that's multi hypervisor right and so the goal is to have something that you can deploy into any cloud environment regardless of what CMS are running and regardless of what of what hypervisors they're using now we have many many partners whether their system integrators with the solution partners and so you know we don't have any religion on on the type of technologies in play we want to provide the best virtual networking solution in the industry and that's really our primary our primary focus let me ask you about it Trent some trends in the in the tech community in in academia and the research areas obviously at this example just randomly low-level virtual machines that kind of those kinds of shifts are happening could you talk about just what you're tracking right now that your get your eye on in terms of what's going on at some of the top university obviously low-level virtual machines at the University of Illinois and in Chicago so what other areas can you share with us that you monitoring listen this is a great question to ask a nap academic and I'm going to totally disappoint you in that I you know I i I'm on a lot of pcs and I follow a lot of research I mean you know I submit papers you know all the time and like I've mostly lost faith in the academic process on the research side lately which i haven't relevant so in terms of trends no but that's exactly the point I think that there's enough vision to last for a century and like now it's time to do work and if it were up to me we would all be taking these ideas that we've come up with over the last 10 years there's very few new ones in my opinion and we'd be executing like crazy and so well again while i'm on the pcs and while i do review the papers i do submit the papers i think we should all focus on like changing infrastructure into software executing like hell and changing the world that way and so and I don't have a really bad attitude about this especially as abuse or but it's a bad attitude okay we say it we hit it all hang out so final question for me and if she wants to get one more in and don't you can't say the acquisition as the answer what is the biggest surprise that that that you fell out of your chair over the past 24 months around you in the industry in your entrepreneurial venture here now at VMware and it could be like a surprise and this trend didn't happen that happened that you know these are the things that happened it could be good or bad what's the biggest surprise that caught you off guard this year that's 24 months yeah it's a good question I think the one that actually been a little the most shocking is how how difficult is being just very honest is how difficult to manage perception in the industry and if you look at kind of social media and you look at a lot of the buzz in the rags so much of it is generated by non disinterested parties so invested parties and so I think it's possible to be a perfectly good citizen and then get paint in a very negative light or be a very negative citizen and be painted in a very good light and it's been counterintuitive to me how you manage this effectively like almost a dynamic feedback system so for example this year has been an enormous contributor to open source I think we've contributed more than anybody in our space by you know factor of 10 or more we contributed most of the core technologies and often people like well but it's a proprietary solution on the other hand there sometimes we're like okay this is a closer source product people like we should use this here because it's the open solution and so well I think that definitely felt on both sides you know being both open source and close or sometimes it's worked for us and for the wrong reasons sometimes it's not worked for us for the right reasons and so that dynamic has been the least intuitive to me so I'm not sure I fell off my chair but definitely it's been the most surprising yeah and you know and that's what we're trying to solve a SiliconANGLE as we say we're agile media and ultimately with social media the whole media business is changing so we know one of the things that we care about here so that's why we have the qubits we just this is raw data we want to share be provocative be edgy is too it's a data-driven world and we believe the media business is absolutely screwed up beyond all recognition so so because of just lack of fact-checking just old techniques aren't working and but it's the same game right so it's just so things circulate things get branded and we've seen a time and time again I've seen great people show up as like almost painted as criminals yeah so it's just a sad state of reporting and media so would agree with you there okay John so if I if I can have that one last question your machine you know the networking industries is a big community and when you talk about kind of the jobs that people are doing today what's your recommendation to folks out there in the networking industry what should what should they start to you know we'd or you know start playing with to kind of understand where things are going down the line honestly I don't want to say a cliche but I actually really believe this one I think I think networking networks are evolving to become proper systems and proper systems in an end-to-end manner meaning that goes a very well-defined hardware a software layer they all work together and I think the data center is is becoming a large computer and I think the most important thing is to view the industry and that lens meaning you know I would get as much information as I could on how guys like Google or Amazon or Facebook build their data centers and you realize that if you do a cross-section of these things like the Capital savings the operational savings the flexibility of the software like that's changing the world and if it's not changing the world directly by changing infrastructure it's changing the world to the surfaces they deliver and understanding that model in your bones I think is the beacon going forward so if it were me the first thing I do is I really understand why they make those decisions what the benefits are and I would use that to guide my learning going forward okay Martinez out of this co-founder of this year now at do you have a title at VMware yet or do you I mean did i do I don't know my head honcho of the Sierra am where Thanks coming inside the cube really preciate it we right back with our next guest we're going to wrap up try to wrap up the day as they start to bon jovi soundcheck here at V emerald 2012 this is SiliconANGLE calm and Wikibon doors continues coverage at vmworld great thank you