>> From theCUBE Studios in Palo Alto in Boston, bringing you data-driven insights from theCUBE and ETR, this is Braking Analysis with Dave Vellante. >> Intel's big announcement this week underscores the threat that the United States faces from China. The US needs to lead in semiconductor design and manufacturing. And that lead is slipping because Intel has been fumbling the ball over the past several years, a mere two months into the job, new CEO Pat Gelsinger wasted no time in setting a new course for perhaps, the most strategically important American technology company. We believe that Gelsinger has only shown us part of his plan. This is the beginning of a long and highly complex journey. Despite Gelsinger's clear vision, his deep understanding of technology and execution ethos, in order to regain its number one position, Intel we believe we'll need to have help from partners, competitors and very importantly, the US government. Hello everyone and welcome to this week's Wikibon CUBE insights powered by ETR. In this breaking analysis we'll peel the onion Intel's announcement of this week and explain why we're perhaps not as sanguine as was Wall Street on Intel's prospects. And we'll lay out what we think needs to take place for Intel to once again, become top gun and for us to gain more confidence. By the way this is the first time we're broadcasting live with Braking Analysis. We're broadcasting on the CUBE handles on Twitch, Periscope and YouTube and going forward we'll do this regularly as a live program and we'll bring in the community perspective into the conversation through chat. Now you may recall that in January, we kind of dismissed analysis that said Intel didn't have to make any major strategic changes to its business when they brought on Pat Gelsinger. Rather we said the exact opposite. Our view at time was that the root of Intel's problems could be traced to the fact that it wasn't no longer the volume leader. Because mobile volumes dwarf those of x86. As such we said that Intel couldn't go up the learning curve for next gen technologies as fast as its competitors and it needed to shed its dogma of being highly vertically integrated. We said Intel needed to more heavily leverage outsourced foundries. But more specifically, we suggested that in order for Intel to regain its volume lead, it needed to, we said at the time, spin out its manufacturing, create a joint venture sure with a volume leader, leveraging Intel's US manufacturing presence. This, we still believe with some slight refreshes to our thinking based on what Gelsinger has announced. And we'll talk about that today. Now specifically there were three main pieces and a lot of details to Intel's announcement. Gelsinger made it clear that Intel is not giving up its IDM or integrated device manufacturing ethos. He called this IDM 2.0, which comprises Intel's internal manufacturing, leveraging external Foundries and creating a new business unit called Intel Foundry Services. It's okay. Gelsinger said, "We are not giving up on integrated manufacturing." However, we think this is somewhat nuanced. Clearly Intel can't, won't and shouldn't give up on IDM. However, we believe Intel is entering a new era where it's giving designers more choice. This was not explicitly stated. However we feel like Intel's internal manufacturing arm will have increased pressure to serve its designers in a more competitive manner. We've already seen this with Intel finally embracing EUV or extreme ultraviolet lithography. Gelsinger basically said that Intel didn't lean into EUV early on and that it created more complexity in its 10 nanometer process, which dominoed into seven nanometer and as you know the rest of the story and Intel's delays. But since mid last year, it's embraced the technology. Now as a point of reference, Samsung started applying EUV for its seven nanometer technology in 2018. And it began shipping in early 2020. So as you can see, it takes years to get this technology into volume production. The point is that Intel realizes it needs to be more competitive. And we suspect, it will give more freedom to designers to leverage outsource manufacturing. But Gelsinger clearly signaled that IDM is not going away. But the really big news is that Intel is setting up a new division with a separate PNL that's going to report directly to Pat. Essentially it's hanging out a shingle and saying, we're open for business to make your chips. Intel is building two new Fabs in Arizona and investing $20 billion as part of this initiative. Now well Intel has tried this before earlier last decade. Gelsinger says that this time we're serious and we're going to do it right. We'll come back to that. This organizational move while not a spin out or a joint venture, it's part of the recipe that we saw as necessary for Intel to be more competitive. Let's talk about why Intel is doing this. Look at lots has changed in the world of semiconductors. When you think about it back when Pat was at Intel in the '90s, Intel was the volume leader. It crushed the competition with x86. And the competition at the time was coming from risk chips. And when Apple changed the game with iPod and iPhone and iPad, the volume equation flipped to mobile. And that led to big changes in the industry. Specifically, the world started to separate design from manufacturing. We now see firms going from design to tape out in 12 months versus taking three years. A good example is Tesla and his deal with ARM and Samsung. And what's happened is Intel has gone from number one in Foundry in terms of clock speed, wafer density, volume, lowest cost, highest margin to falling behind. TSMC, Samsung and alternative processor competitors like NVIDIA. Volume is still the maker of kings in this business. That hasn't changed and it confers advantage in terms of cost, speed and efficiency. But ARM wafer volumes, we estimate are 10x those of x86. That's a big change since Pat left Intel more than a decade ago. There's also a major chip shortage today. But you know this time, it feels a little different than the typical semiconductor boom and bust cycles. Semiconductor consumption is entering a new era and new use cases emerging from automobiles to factories, to every imaginable device piece of equipment, infrastructure, silicon is everywhere. But the biggest threat of all is China. China wants to be self-sufficient in semiconductors by 2025. It's putting approximately $60 billion into new chip Fabs, and there's more to come. China wants to be the new economic leader of the world and semiconductors are critical to that goal. Now there are those poopoo the China threat. This recent article from Scott Foster lays out some really good information. But the one thing that caught our attention is a statement that China's semiconductor industry is nowhere near being a major competitor in the global market. Let alone an existential threat to the international order and the American way of life. I think Scotty is stuck in the engine room and can't see the forest of the trees, wake up. Sure. You can say China is way behind. Let's take an example. NAND. Today China is at about 64 3D layers whereas Micron they're at 172. By 2022 China's going to be at 128. Micron, it's going to be well over 200. So what's the big deal? We say talk to us in 2025 because we think China will be at parody. That's just one example. Now the type of thinking that says don't worry about China and semi's reminds me of the epic lecture series that Clay Christiansen gave as a visiting professor at Oxford University on the history of, and the economics of the steel industry. Now if you haven't watched this series, you should. Basically Christiansen took the audience through the dynamics of steel production. And he asked the question, "Who told the steel manufacturers that gross margin was the number one measure of profitability? Was it God?" he joked. His point was, when new entrance came into the market in the '70s, they were bottom feeders going after the low margin, low quality, easiest to make rebar sector. And the incumbents nearly pulled back and their mix shifted to higher margin products and their gross margins went up and life was good. Until they lost the next layer. And then the next, and then the next, until it was game over. Now, one of the things that got lost in Pat's big announcement on the 23rd of March was that Intel guided the street below consensus on revenue and earnings. But the stock went up the next day. Now when asked about gross margin in the Q&A segment of the announcement, yes, gross margin is a if not the key metric in semi's in terms of measuring profitability. When asked Intel CFO George Davis explained that with the uptick in PCs last year there was a product shift to the lower margin PC sector and that put pressure on gross margins. It was a product mix thing. And revenue because PC chips are less expensive than server chips was affected as were margins. Now we shared this chart in our last Intel update showing, spending momentum over time for Dell's laptop business from ETR. And you can see in the inset, the unit growth and the market data from IDC, yes, Dell's laptop business is growing, everybody's laptop business is growing. Thank you COVID. But you see the numbers from IDC, Gartner, et cetera. Now, as we pointed out last time, PC volumes had peaked in 2011 and that's when the long arm of rights law began to eat into Intel's dominance. Today ARM wafer production as we said is far greater than Intel's and well, you know the story. Here's the irony, the very bucket that conferred volume adventures to Intel PCs, yes, it had a slight uptick last year, which was great news for Dell. But according to Intel it pulled down its margins. The point is Intel is loving the high end of the market because it's higher margin and more profitable. I wonder what Clay Christensen would say to that. Now there's more to this story. Intel's CFO blame the supply constraints on Intel's revenue and profit pressures yet AMD's revenue and profits are booming. So RTSMCs. Only Intel can't seem to thrive when there's this massive chip shortage. Now let's get back to Pat's announcement. Intel is for sure, going forward investing $20 billion in two new US-based fabrication facilities. This chart shows Intel's investments in US R&D, US CapEx and the job growth that's created as a result, as well as R&D and CapEx investments in Ireland and Israel. Now we added the bar on the right hand side from a Wall Street journal article that compares TSMC CapEx in the dark green to that of Intel and the light green. You can see TSMC surpass the CapEx investment of Intel in 2015, and then Intel took the lead back again. And in 2017 was, hey it on in 2018. But last year TSMC took the lead, again. And appears to be widening that lead quite substantially. Leading us to our conclusion that this will not be enough. These moves by Intel will not be enough. They need to do more. And a big part of this announcement was partnerships and packaging. Okay. So here's where it gets interesting. Intel, as you may know was late to the party with SOC system on a chip. And it's going to use its packaging prowess to try and leap frog the competition. SOC bundles things like GPU, NPU, DSUs, accelerators caches on a single chip. So better use the real estate if you will. Now Intel wants to build system on package which will dis-aggregate memory from compute. Now remember today, memory is very poorly utilized. What Intel is going to do is to create a package with literally thousands of nodes comprising small processors, big processors, alternative processors, ARM processors, custom Silicon all sharing a pool of memory. This is a huge innovation and we'll come back to this in a moment. Now as part of the announcement, Intel trotted out some big name customers, prospects and even competitors that it wants to turn into prospects and customers. Amazon, Google, Satya Nadella gave a quick talk from Microsoft to Cisco. All those guys are designing their own chips as does Ericsson and look even Qualcomm is on the list, a competitor. Intel wants to earn the right to make chips for these firms. Now many on the list like Microsoft and Google they'd be happy to do so because they want more competition. And Qualcomm, well look if Intel can do a good job and be a strong second sourced, why not? Well, one reason is they compete aggressively with Intel but we don't like Intel so much but it's very possible. But the two most important partners on this slide are one IBM and two, the US government. Now many people were going to gloss over IBM in this announcement, but we think it's one of the most important pieces of the puzzle. Yes. IBM and semiconductors. IBM actually has some of the best semiconductor technology in the world. It's got great architecture and is two to three years ahead of Intel with POWER10. Yes, POWER. IBM is the world's leader in terms of dis-aggregating compute from memory with the ability to scale to thousands of nodes, sound familiar? IBM leads in power density, efficiency and it can put more stuff closer together. And it's looking now at a 20x increase in AI inference performance. We think Pat has been thinking about this for a while and he said, how can I leave leap frog system on chip. And we think he thought and said, I'll use our outstanding process manufacturing and I'll tap IBM as a partner for R&D and architectural chips to build the next generation of systems that are more flexible and performant than anything that's out there. Now look, this is super high end stuff. And guess who needs really high end massive supercomputing capabilities? Well, the US military. Pat said straight up, "We've talked to the government and we're honored to be competing for the government/military chips boundary." I mean, look Intel in my view was going to have to fall down into face not win this business. And by making the commitment to Foundry Services we think they will get a huge contract from the government, as large, perhaps as $10 billion or more to build a secure government Foundry and serve the military for decades to come. Now Pat was specifically asked in the Q&A section is this Foundry strategy that you're embarking on viable without the help of the US government? Kind of implying that it was a handout or a bailout. And Pat of course said all the right things. He said, "This is the right thing for Intel. Independent of the government, we haven't received any commitment or subsidies or anything like that from the US government." Okay, cool. But they have had conversations and I have no doubt, and Pat confirmed this, that those conversations were very, very positive that Intel should head in this direction. Well, we know what's happening here. The US government wants Intel to win. It needs Intel to win and its participation greatly increases the probability of success. But unfortunately, we still don't think it's enough for Intel to regain its number one position. Let's look at that in a little bit more detail. The headwinds for Intel are many. Look it can't just flick a switch and catch up on manufacturing leadership. It's going to take four years. And lots can change in that time. It tells market momentum as well as we pointed out earlier is headed in the wrong direction from a financial perspective. Moreover, where is the volume going to come from? It's going to take years for Intel to catch up for ARMS if it never can. And it's going to have to fight to win that business from its current competitors. Now I have no doubt. It will fight hard under Pat's excellent leadership. But the Foundry business is different. Consider this, Intel's annual CapEx expenditures, if you divide that by their yearly revenue it comes out to about 20% of revenue. TSMC spends 50% of its revenue each year on CapEx. This is a different animal, very service oriented. So look, we're not pounding the table saying Intel's worst days are over. We don't think they are. Now, there are some positives, I'm showing those in the right-hand side. Pat Gelsinger was born for this job. He proved that the other day, even though we already knew it. I have never seen him more excited and more clearheaded. And we agreed that the chip demand dynamic is going to have legs in this decade and beyond with Digital, Edge, AI and new use cases that are going to power that demand. And Intel is too strategic to fail. And the US government has huge incentives to make sure that it succeeds. But it's still not enough in our opinion because like the steel manufacturers Intel's real advantage today is increasingly in the high end high margin business. And without volume, China is going to win this battle. So we continue to believe that a new joint venture is going to emerge. Here's our prediction. We see a triumvirate emerging in a new joint venture that is led by Intel. It brings x86, that volume associated with that. It brings cash, manufacturing prowess, R&D. It brings global resources, so much more than we show in this chart. IBM as we laid out brings architecture, it's R&D, it's longstanding relationships. It's deal flow, it can funnel its business to the joint venture as can of course, parts of Intel. We see IBM getting a nice licensed deal from Intel and or the JV. And it has to get paid for its contribution and we think it'll also get a sweet deal and the manufacturing fees from this Intel Foundry. But it's still not enough to beat China. Intel needs volume. And that's where Samsung comes in. It has the volume with ARM, has the experience and a complete offering across products. We also think that South Korea is a more geographically appealing spot in the globe than Taiwan with its proximity to China. Not to mention that TSMC, it doesn't need Intel. It's already number one. Intel can get a better deal from number two, Samsung. And together these three we think, in this unique structure could give it a chance to become number one by the end of the decade or early in the 2030s. We think what's happening is our take, is that Intel is going to fight hard to win that government business, put itself in a stronger negotiating position and then cut a deal with some supplier. We think Samsung makes more sense than anybody else. Now finally, we want to leave you with some comments and some thoughts from the community. First, I want to thank David Foyer. His decade plus of work and knowledge of this industry along with this collaboration made this work possible. His fingerprints are all over this research in case you didn't notice. And next I want to share comments from two of my colleagues. The first is Serbjeet Johal. He sent this to me last night. He said, "We are not in our grandfather's compute era anymore. Compute is getting spread into every aspect of our economy and lives. The use of processors is getting more and more specialized and will intensify with the rise in edge computing, AI inference and new workloads." Yes, I totally agree with Sarbjeet. And that's the dynamic which Pat is betting and betting big. But the bottom line is summed up by my friend and former IDC mentor, Dave Moschella. He says, "This is all about China. History suggests that there are very few second acts, you know other than Microsoft and Apple. History also will say that the antitrust pressures that enabled AMD to thrive are the ones, the very ones that starved Intel's cash. Microsoft made the shift it's PC software cash cows proved impervious to competition. The irony is the same government that attacked Intel's monopoly now wants to be Intel's protector because of China. Perhaps it's a cautionary tale to those who want to break up big tech." Wow. What more can I add to that? Okay. That's it for now. Remember I publish each week on wikibon.com and siliconangle.com. These episodes are all available as podcasts. All you got to do is search for Braking Analysis podcasts and you can always connect with me on Twitter @dvellante or email me at david.vellante, siliconangle.com As always I appreciate the comments on LinkedIn and in clubhouse please follow me so that you're notified when we start a room and start riffing on these topics. And don't forget to check out etr.plus for all the survey data. This is Dave Vellante for theCUBE insights powered by ETR, be well, and we'll see you next time. (upbeat music)

>> Narrator: From around the globe. It's theCUBE covering space in cybersecurity symposium 2020 hosted by Cal Poly. >> Hello, everyone. Welcome to the space and cybersecurity symposium, 2020 hosted by Cal Poly where the intersection of space and security are coming together. I'm John Furrier, your host with theCUBE here in California. I want to welcome our featured guest, Lieutenant General, John F. Thompson with the United States Space Force approach to cybersecurity. That's the topic of this session. And of course he's the commander of the space and missile system center in Los Angeles Air Force Base. Also heading up Space Force. General, thank you for coming on. I really appreciate to you kicking this off. Welcome to the symposium. >> Hey, so thank you very much, John, for that very kind introduction. Also very much thank you to Cal Poly for this opportunity to speak to this audience today. Also a special shout out to one of the organizers, Dustin Debrun, for all of his work, helping get us to this point. Ladies and gentlemen as a John mentioned, I'm JT Thompson. I lead the 6,000 men and women of the United States Space Force's Space and Missile System Center, which is headquartered here at Los Angeles Air Force Base and El Segundo. If you're not quite sure where that's at, it's about a mile and a half from LAX. This is our main operating location, but we do have a number of other operating locations around the country. We're about 500 people at Kirtland Air Force Base in Albuquerque, New Mexico, and an about another 500 people on the front range of the Rockies between Colorado Springs and Denver plus a smattering of other much smaller operating locations nationwide. We're responsible for acquiring, developing and sustaining the United States Space Force's, critical space assets. That includes the satellites in the space layer and also on the ground layer our ground segments to operate those satellites. And we also are in charge of procuring launch services for the US Space Force and a number of our critical mission partners across the Department of Defense and the intelligence community. Just as a couple of examples of some of the things we do, if you're unfamiliar with our work we developed and currently sustain the 31 satellite GPS constellation that satellite constellation, while originally intended to help with global navigation, those GPS signals have provided trillions of dollars in unanticipated value to the global economy over the past three decades. GPS is everywhere. I think everybody realizes that. Agriculture, banking, the stock market, the airline industry, separate and distinct navigation systems. It's really pervasive across both capabilities for our Department of Defense and capabilities for our economy and individuals, billions of individuals across our country and the planet. Some of the other work we do for instance, in the communications sector, secure communications satellites that we designed and build that link America's sons and daughters serving in the military around the world and really enable real time support and comms for our deployed forces. And those of our allies. We also acquire infrared missile warning satellites that monitor the planet for missile launches that provide advanced warning to the US Homeland and to our allies in case some of those missile launches are nefarious. On a note, that's probably a lot closer to home, maybe a lot closer to home than many of us want to think about here in the state of California. In 2018, SMC jumped through a bunch of red tape and bureaucracy to partner with the US Forest Service during two of the largest wildfires in the state's history, the Camp and Woolsey fires in Northern California. As those fires spread out of control, we created processes on the fly to share data from our missile warning satellites. Those are satellites that are systems that are purpose built to see heat sources from thousands of miles above the planet. And we collaborated with the US Forest Service so that firefighters on the ground could track those fires more in real time and better forecast fires and where they were spreading, thereby saving lives and property by identifying hotspots and flareups for firefighters. That data that we were able to working with our contractors pass to the US Forest Service and authorities here in California, was passed in less than an hour as it was collected to get it into the hands of the emergency responders, the first responders as quickly as possible and doing that in an hour greatly surpassed what was available from some of the other assets in the airborne and ground-based fire spotters. It was really instrumental in fighting those fires and stopping their spread. We've continued that involvement in recent years, using multiple systems to support firefighters across the Western US this fall, as they battled numerous wildfires that unfortunately continue. Working together with the US Forest Service and with other partners we'd like to think that we've made a difference here, but there's still a lot more work to go. And I think that we should always be asking ourselves what else can space data be used for and how can we more rapidly get that space data to stakeholders so that they can use it for purposes of good, if you will. How else can we protect our nation? How else can we protect our friends and allies? I think a major component of the discussion that we will have throughout this conference is that the space landscape has changed rapidly and continues to change rapidly. Just over the past few years, John and I were talking before we went live here and 80 nations now have space programs. Nearly 80 space faring nations on the planet. If you just look at one mission area that the Department of Defense is interested in, and that's small launch, there are currently over 100 different small launch companies within the US industrial base vying for commercial DoD and civil payload capabilities, mostly to lower earth orbit. It's truly a remarkable time. If you factor in those things like artificial intelligence and machine learning, where we're revolutionizing really, the ways that we generate process and use data. It's really remarkable. In 2016, so if you think about this four years ago, NASA estimated that there were 28 terabytes of information transiting their space network each day. And that was four years ago. Obviously we've got a lot of desire to work with a lot of the people in the audience in this conference, we need to work with big thinkers, like many of you to answer questions on how best we apply data analytics to extract value and meaning from that data. We need new generations of thinkers to help apply cutting edge theories of data mining, cyber behaviorism, and Internet of Things 2.0, it's just truly a remarkable time to be in the space business and the cyber aspects of the space business are truly, truly daunting and important to all of us. Integrating cyber security into our space systems, both commercial and government is a mandate. it's no longer just a nice to have as the US Space Force and Department of the Air Force leadership has said many times over the past couple of years, space is becoming congested and contested. And that contested aspect means that we've got to focus on cyber security in the same way that the banking industry and cyber commerce focus on cybersecurity day in and day out. The value of the data and services provided is really directly tied to the integrity and availability of that data and services from the space layer, from the ground control segments associated with it. And this value is not just military, it's also economic and it's not just American, it's also a value for the entire world, particularly our allies, as we all depend upon space and space systems. Your neighbors and friends here in California that are employed at the space and missile system center work with network defenders. We work with our commercial contractors and our systems developers, our international allies and partners to try and build as secure and resilient systems as we can from the ground up that keep the global comments of space free and open for exploration and for commerce as John and I were talking earlier, before we came online, there's an aspect of cybersecurity for space systems, especially for some of our legacy systems, that's more, how do we bolt this on? Cause we fielded those space systems a number of years ago, and the challenges of cybersecurity in the space domain have grown. So we have a part that we have to worry about, bolting it on, but then we have to worry about building it in as we field new systems and build in a flexibility that realizes that the cyber threat or the cybersecurity landscape will evolve over time. It's not just going to be stagnant. There will always be new vulnerabilities and new threat vectors that we all have to look at. Look, as Secretary Barrett, who is our secretary of the air force likes to say most Americans use space before they have their first cup of coffee in the morning. The American way of life really depends on space. And as part of the United States Space Force, we work with defense leaders, our Congress joint, and international military teammates and industry to ensure American leadership in space. I really thank you for this opportunity to address the audience today, John, and thanks so much to Cal Poly for letting me be one of the speakers at this event. I've really looked forward to this for several months. And so with that, I look forward to your questions as we kind of move along here. >> General, thank you very much for those awesome introductory statement. For the folks watching on the stream, Brigadier General Carthan's going to be in the chat, answering any questions, feel free to chat away. He's the vice commander of Space and Missile System Center, he'll be available. A couple of comments from your keynote before I get to my questions. Cause it just jumped into my head. You mentioned the benefits of say space with the fires in California. We're living that here. That's really realtime. That's a benefit. You also mentioned the ability for more people launching payloads into space. I'm only imagined Moore's law smaller, faster, cheaper applies to rockets too. So I'm imagining you have the benefits of space and you have now more potential objects flying out sanctioned and maybe unsanctioned. So is it going to be more rules around that? This is an interesting question cause it's exciting Space Force, but for all the good there is potentially bad out there. >> Yeah. So John, I think the basics of your question is as space becomes more congested and contested, is there a need for more international norms of how satellites fly in space? What kind of basic features satellites have to perhaps de orbit themselves? What kind of basic protections should all satellites be afforded as part of a peaceful global commons of space? I think those are all fantastic questions. And I know that US and many allied policy makers are looking very, very hard at those kinds of questions in terms of what are the norms of behavior and how we field, and field as the military term. But how we populate using civil or commercial terms that space layer at different altitudes, lower earth orbit, mid earth orbit, geosynchronous earth orbit, different kinds of orbits, what the kind of mission areas we accomplished from space. That's all things that need to be definitely taken into account as the place gets a little bit, not a little bit as the place gets increasingly more popular day in and day out. >> I'm super excited for Space Force. I know that a new generation of young folks are really interested in it's an emerging, changing great space. The focus here at this conference is space and cybersecurity, the intersection. I'd like to get your thoughts on the approach that a space force is taking to cybersecurity and how it impacts our national goals here in the United States. >> Yeah. So that's a great question John, let me talk about it in two basic ways. At number one is an and I know some people in the audience, this might make them a little bit uncomfortable, but I have to talk about the threat. And then relative to that threat, I really have to talk about the importance of cyber and specifically cyber security, as it relates to that threat. The threats that we face really represented a new era of warfare and that new era of warfare involves both space and cyber. We've seen a lot of action in recent months from certain countries, notably China and Russia that have threatened what I referred to earlier as the peaceful global commons of space. For example, it threw many unclassified sources and media sources. Everybody should understand that the Russians have been testing on orbit anti-satellite capabilities. It's been very clear if you were following just the week before last, the Department of Defense released its 2020 military and security developments involving the People's Republic of China. And it was very clear that China is developing ASATs, electronic jammers, directed energy weapons, and most relevant to today's discussion, offensive cyber capabilities. There are kinetic threats that are very, very easy to see, but a cyber attack against a critical command and control site or against a particular spacecraft could be just as devastating to the system and our war fighters in the case of GPS and important to note that that GPS system also impacts many civilians who are dependent on those systems from a first response perspective and emergency services, a cyber attack against a ground control site could cause operators to lose control of a spacecraft or an attacker could feed spoofed data to assist them to mislead operators so that they sent emergency services personnel to the wrong address. Attacks on spacecraft on orbit, whether directly via a network intrusion or enabled through malware introduced during the system's production while we're building the satellite can cripple or corrupt the data. Denial-of-service type attacks on our global networks obviously would disrupt our data flow and interfere with ongoing operations and satellite control. If GPS went down, I hesitate to say it this way, cause we might elicit some screams from the audience. But if GPS went down a Starbucks, wouldn't be able to handle your mobile order, Uber drivers wouldn't be able to find you. And Domino's certainly wouldn't be able to get there in 30 minutes or less. So with a little bit of tongue in cheek there from a military operations perspective, it's dead serious. We have become accustomed in the commercial world to threats like ransomware and malware. And those things have unfortunately become commonplace in commercial terrestrial networks and computer systems. However, what we're seeing is that our adversaries with the increased competition in space these same techniques are being retooled, if you will, to use against our national security space systems day in and day out. As I said, during my opening remarks on the importance of cyber, the value of these systems is directly tied to their integrity. If commanders in the field, firefighters in California or baristas in Starbucks, can't trust the data they're receiving, then that really harms their decision making capabilities. One of the big trends we've recently seen is the move towards proliferated LEO constellations, obviously Space X's Starlink on the commercial side and on the military side, the work that DARPA and my organization SMC are doing on Blackjack and Casino, as well as some space transport layer constellation work that the space development agency is designing are all really, really important types of mesh network systems that will revolutionaries how we plan and field war fighting systems and commercial communications and internet providing systems. But they're also heavily reliant on cybersecurity. We've got to make sure that they are secured to avoid an accident or international damage. Loss of control of these constellations really could be catastrophic from both a mission perspective or from a satellites tumbling out of low earth orbit perspective. Another trend is introductions in artificial intelligence and machine learning, onboard spacecraft are at the edge. Our satellites are really not so much hardware systems with a little software anymore in the commercial sector and in the defense sector, they're basically flying boxes full of software. And we need to ensure that data that we're getting out of those flying boxes full of software are helping us base our decisions on accurate data and algorithms, governing the right actions and that those systems are impervious to the extent possible to nefarious modifications. So in summation, cybersecurity is a vital element of everything in our national security space goals. And I would argue for our national goals, writ large, including economic and information dimensions, the Space Force leadership at all levels from some of the brand new second lieutenants that general Raymond swore in to the space force this morning, ceremonially from the air force associations, airspace and cyberspace conference to the various highest levels, General Raymond, General DT Thompson, myself, and a number of other senior leaders in this enterprise. We've got to make sure that we're all working together to keep cyber security at the forefront of our space systems cause they absolutely depend on it. >> You mentioned hardware, software threats, opportunities, challenges. I want to ask you because you got me thinking of the minute they're around infrastructure. We've heard critical infrastructure, grids here on earth. You're talking about critical infrastructure, a redefinition of what critical infrastructure is, an extension of what we have. So I'd love to get your thoughts about Space Force's view of that critical infrastructure vis-a-vis the threat vectors, because the term threat vectors has been kicked around in the cyberspace. Oh you have threat vectors. They're always increasing the surface area. If the surface area is from space, it's an unlimited service area. So you got different vectors. So you've got new critical infrastructure developing real time, really fast. And you got an expanded threat vector landscape. Putting that in perspective for the folks that aren't really inside the ropes on these critical issues. How would you explain this and how would you talk about those two things? >> So I tell you, just like, I'm sure people in the security side or the cybersecurity side of the business in the banking industry feel, they feel like it's all possible threat vectors represent a dramatic and protect potentially existential threat to all of the dollars that they have in the banking system, to the financial sector. On the Department of Defense side, we've got to have sort of the same mindset. That threat vector from, to, and through space against critical space systems, ground segments, the launch enterprise, or transportation to orbit and the various different domains within space itself. Like I mentioned before, LEO, MEO and GEO based satellites with different orbits, all of the different mission areas that are accomplished from space that I mentioned earlier, some that I did mention like a weather tactical or wide band communications, various new features of space control. All of those are things that we have to worry about from a cyber security threat perspective. And it's a daunting challenge right now. >> Yeah, that's awesome. And one of the things we've been falling on the hardware side on the ground is the supply chain. We've seen, malware being, really put in a really obscure hardware. Who manufactures it? Is it being outsourced? Obviously government has restrictions, but with the private sector, you mentioned China and the US kind of working together across these peaceful areas. But you got to look at the supply chain. How does the supply chain in the security aspect impact the mission of the US space Force? >> Yeah. Yeah. So how about another, just in terms of an example, another kind of California based historical example. The very first US Satellite, Explorer 1, was built by the jet propulsion laboratory folks, not far from here in El Segundo, up in Pasadena, that satellite, when it was first built in the late 50s weighing a little bit, over 30 pounds. And I'm sure that each and every part was custom made and definitely made by US companies. Fast forward to today. The global supply chain is so tightly coupled, and frankly many industries are so specialized, almost specialized regionally around the planet. We focus every day to guarantee the integrity of every component that we put in our space systems is absolutely critical to the operations of those satellites and we're dependent upon them, but it becomes more difficult and more difficult to understand the heritage, if you will, of some of the parts that are used, the thousands of parts that are used in some of our satellites that are literally school bus sized. The space industry, especially national security space sector is relatively small compared to other commercial industries. And we're moving towards using more and more parts from non US companies. Cybersecurity and cyber awareness have to be baked in from the beginning if we're going to be using parts that maybe we don't necessarily understand 100% like an Explorer one, the lineage of that particular part. The environmental difficulties in space are well known. The radiation environment, the temperature extremes, the vacuum, those require specialized component. And the US military is not the only customer in that space. In fact, we're definitely not the dominant customer in space anymore. All those factors require us along with our other government partners and many different commercial space organizations to keep a very close eye on our supply chains, from a quality perspective, a security perspective and availability. There's open source reporting on supply training intrusions from many different breaches of commercial retailers to the infectious spread of compromised patches, if you will. And our adversaries are aware of these techniques. As I mentioned earlier, with other forms of attack, considering our supply chains and development networks really becomes fair game for our adversaries. So we have to take that threat seriously. Between the government and industry sectors here in the US. We're also working with our industry partners to enact stronger defenses and assess our own vulnerabilities. Last fall, we completed an extensive review of all of our major contracts here at Space and Missile System Center to determine the levels of cyber security requirements we've implemented across our portfolio. And it sounds really kind of businessy geeky, if you will. Hey, we looked at our contracts to make sure that we had the right clauses in our contracts to address cybersecurity as dynamically as we possibly could. And so we found ourselves having to add new language to our contracts, to require system developers, to implement some more advanced protective measures in this evolving cyber security environment. So that data handling and supply chain protections from contract inception to launch and operations were taken into account. Cyber security really is a key performance parameter for us now. Performance of the system, It's as important as cost, it's as important as schedule, because if we deliver the perfect system on time and on cost, it can perform that missile warning or that communications mission perfectly, but it's not cyber secure. If it's doesn't have cyber protections built into it, or the ability to implement mitigations against cyber threats, then we've essentially fielded a shoe box in space that doesn't do the CA the war fighter or the nation any good. Supply chain risk management is a major challenge for us. We're doing a lot to coordinate with our industry partners. We're all facing it head on to try and build secure and trusted components that keep our confidence as leaders, firefighters, and baristas as the case may be. But it is a challenge. And we're trying to rise to that challenge. >> This is so exciting this new area, because it really touches everything. Talk about geeking out on the tech, the hardware, the systems but also you put your kind of MBA hat on you go, what's the ROI of extra development and how things get built. Because the always the exciting thing for space geeks is like, if you're building cool stuff, it's exciting, but you still have to build. And cybersecurity has proven that security has to be baked in from the beginning and be thought as a system architecture. So you're still building things, which means you got to acquire things, you got to acquire parts, you got acquire build software and sustain it. How is security impacting the acquisition and the sustainment of these systems for space? >> Yeah. From initial development, through planning for the acquisition, design, development, our production fielding and sustainment, it impacts all aspects of the life cycle, John. We simply, especially from the concept of baking in cybersecurity, we can't wait until something is built and then try and figure out how to make it cyber secure. So we've moved way further towards working side by side with our system developers to strengthen cybersecurity from the very beginning of a systems development, cyber security, and the resilience associated with it really have to be treated as a key system attribute. As I mentioned earlier, equivalent with data rates or other metrics of performance. We like to talk in the space world about mission assurance and mission assurance has always sort of taken us as we technically geek out. Mission assurance has always taken us to the will this system work in space. Can it work in a vacuum? Can it work in as it transfers through the Van Allen radiation belt or through the Southern hemisphere's electromagnetic anomaly? Will it work out in space? And now from a resiliency perspective, yeah, it has to work in space. It's got to be functional in space, but it's also got to be resistant to these cybersecurity threats. It's not just, I think a General D.T Thompson quoted this term. It's not just widget assurance anymore. It's mission assurance. How does that satellite operator that ground control segment operate while under attack? So let me break your question a little bit, just for purposes of discussion into really two parts, cybersecurity, for systems that are new and cybersecurity for systems that are in sustainment are kind of old and legacy. Obviously there's cyber vulnerabilities that threatened both, and we really have to employ different strategies for defensive of each one. For new systems. We're desperately trying to implement across the Department of Defense and particularly in the space world, a kind of a dev sec ops methodology and practice to delivering software faster and with greater security for our space systems. Here at SMC, we have a program called enterprise ground services, which is a toolkit, basically a collection of tools for common command and control of different satellite systems, EGS as we call it has an integrated suite for defensive cyber capabilities. Network operators can use these tools to gain unprecedented insight to data flows and to monitor space network traffic for anomalies or other potential indicators of a bad behavior, malicious behavior, if you will, it's rudimentary at this point, but because we're using DevSecOps and that incremental development approach, as we scale it, it just becomes more and more capable. Every product increment that we feel. Here at LA Air Force Base, we have the United Space Force's West Coast Software Factory, which we've dubbed the Kobayashi Maru. They're using those agile DevOps software development practices to deliver a space awareness software to the combined space operations center. Affectionately called the CSpock that CSpock is just on the road from Cal Poly there in San Luis Obispo at Vandenberg Air Force Base. They've so securely linked the sea Spock with other space operation centers around the planet, our allies, Australia, Canada, and the UK. We're partnering with all of them to enable secure and enhanced combined space operations. So lots of new stuff going on as we bake in new development capabilities for our space systems. But as I mentioned earlier, we've got large constellations of satellites on orbit right now. Some of them are well in excess of a decade or more or old on orbit. And so the design aspects of those satellites are several decades old. But we still have to worry about them cause they're critical to our space capabilities. We've been working with an air force material command organization called CROWS, which stands for the Cyber Resiliency Office for Weapon Systems to assess all of those legacy platforms from a cyber security perspective and develop defensive strategies and potential hardware and software upgrades to those systems to better enable them to live through this increasingly cybersecurity concerned era that we currently live in. Our industry partners have been critical to both of those different avenues. Both new systems and legacy systems. We're working closely with them to defend and upgrade national assets and develop the capabilities to do similar with new national assets coming online. The vulnerabilities of our space systems really kind of threatened the way we've done business in the past, both militarily and in the case of GPS economically. The impacts of that cybersecurity risk are clear in our acquisition and sustainment processes, but I've got to tell you, as the threat vectors change, as the vulnerabilities change, we've got to be nimble enough, agile enough, to be able to bounce back and forth. We can't just say, many people in the audience are probably familiar with the RMF or the Risk Management Framework approach to reviewing the cyber security of a system. We can't have program managers and engineers just accomplish an RMF on a system. And then, hey, high five, we're all good. It's a journey, not a destination, that's cybersecurity. And it's a constant battle rhythm through our weapon systems lifecycle, not just a single event. >> I want to get to this commercial business needs and your needs on the next question. But before I go there, you mentioned agile. And I see that clearly because when you have accelerated innovation cycles, you've got to be faster. And we saw this in the computer industry, mainframes, mini computers, and then we started getting beyond maybe when the internet hit and PCs came out, you saw the big enterprises, the banks and government start to work with startups. And it used to be a joke in the entrepreneurial circles is that, there's no way if you are a startup you're ever going to get a contract with a big business enterprise. Now that used to be for public sector and certainly for you guys. So as you see startups out there and there's acquisition involved, I'm sure would love to have a contract with Space Force. There's an ROI calculation where if it's in space and you have a sustainment view and it's software, you might have a new kind of business model that could be attractive to startups. Could you share your thoughts on the folks who want to be a supplier to you, whether they're a startup or an existing business that wants to be agile, but they might not be that big company. >> John, that's a fantastic question. We're desperately trying to reach out to those new space advocates, to those startups, to those what we sometimes refer to, within the Department of Defense, those non traditional defense contractors. A couple of things just for thinking purposes on some of the things that we're trying to highlight. Three years ago, we created here at Space and Missile System Center, the Space Enterprise Consortium to provide a platform, a contractual vehicle, really to enable us to rapidly prototype, development of space systems and to collaborate between the US Space Force, traditional defense contractors, non traditional vendors like startups, and even some academic institutions. SPEC, as we call it, Space Enterprise Consortium uses a specialized contracting tool to get contracts awarded quickly. Many in the audience may be familiar with other transaction agreements. And that's what SPEC is based on. And so far in just three years, SPEC has awarded 75 different prototyping contracts worth over $800 million with a 36% reduction in time to award. And because it's a consortium based competition for these kinds of prototyping efforts, the barrier to entry for small and nontraditional, for startups, even for academic institutions to be able to compete for these kinds of prototyping has really lowered. These types of partnerships that we've been working through on spec have really helped us work with smaller companies who might not have the background or expertise in dealing with the government or in working with cyber security for their systems, both our developmental systems and the systems that they're designing and trying to build. We want to provide ways for companies large and small to partner together in support kind of mutually beneficial relationships between all. Recently at the Annual Air Force Association conference that I mentioned earlier, I moderated a panel with several space industry leaders, all from big traditional defense contractors, by the way. And they all stressed the importance of building bridges and partnerships between major contractors in the defense industry and new entrance. And that helps us capture the benefits of speed and agility that come with small companies and startups, as well as the expertise and specialized skill sets of some of those larger contractors that we rely on day in and day out. Advanced cyber security protections and utilization of secure facilities are just a couple of things that I think we could be prioritizing more so in those collaborations. As I mentioned earlier, the SPEC has been very successful in awarding a number of different prototyping contracts and large dollar values. And it's just going to get better. There's over 400 members of the space enterprise consortium, 80% of them are non traditional kinds of vendors. And we just love working with them. Another thing that many people in the audience may be familiar with in terms of our outreach to innovators, if you will, and innovators that include cyber security experts is our space pitch day events. So we held our first event last November in San Francisco, where we awarded over a two day period about $46 million to 30 different companies that had potentially game changing ideas. These were phase two small business innovative research efforts that we awarded with cash on the spot. We're planning on holding our second space pitch day in the spring of 2021. We're planning on doing it right here in Los Angeles, COVID-19 environment permitting. And we think that these are fantastic venues for identifying and working with high-speed startups, and small businesses who are interested in really, truly partnering with the US Air Force. It's, as I said before, it's a really exciting time to be a part of this business. And working with the innovation economy is something that the Department of Defense really needs to do in that the innovation that we used to think was ours. That 80% of the industrial base innovation that came from the Department of Defense, the script has been flipped there. And so now more than 70%, particularly in space innovation comes from the commercial sector, not from the defense business itself. And so that's a tsunami of investment and a tsunami of a capability. And I need to figure out how to get my surfboard out and ride it, you know what I mean? >> Yeah, It's one of those things where the script has been flipped, but it's exciting because it's impacting everything. When you're talking about systems architecture? You're talking about software, you're talking about a business model. You're talking about dev sec opsx from a technical perspective, but now you have a business model innovation. All the theaters are exploding in innovation, technical, business, personnel. This brings up the workforce challenge. You've got the cyber needs for the US Space Force, It's probably great ROI model for new kinds of software development that could be priced into contracts. That's a entrepreneurial innovation, you've got the business model theater, you've got the personnel. How does the industry adopt and change? You guys are clearly driving this. How does the industry adjust to you? >> Yeah. So I think a great way to answer that question is to just talk about the kind of people that we're trying to prioritize in the US Space Force from an acquisition perspective, and in this particular case from a cybersecurity perspective. As I mentioned earlier, it's the most exciting time to be in space programs, really since the days of Apollo. Just to put it in terms that maybe have an impact with the audience. From 1957 until today, approximately 9,000 satellites have been launched from the various space varying countries around the planet. Less than 2000 of those 9,000 are still up on orbit and operational. And yet in the new space regime players like Space X have plans to launch, 12,000 satellites for some of their constellations alone. It really is a remarkable time in terms of innovation and fielding of space capabilities and all of those space capabilities, whether they're commercial, civil, or defense are going to require appropriate cybersecurity protections. It's just a really exciting time to be working in stuff like this. And so folks like the folks in this audience who have a passion about space and a passion about cybersecurity are just the kind of people that we want to work with. Cause we need to make sure our systems are secure and resilient. We need folks that have technical and computing expertise, engineering skills to be able to design cyber secure systems that can detect and mitigate attacks. But we also, as you alluded to, we need people that have that business and business acumen, human networking background, so that we can launch the startups and work with the non traditional businesses. Help to bring them on board help, to secure both their data and our data and make sure our processes and systems are free as much as possible from attack. For preparation, for audience members who are young and maybe thinking about getting into this trade space, you got to be smart on digital networking. You got to understand basic internet protocols, concepts, programming languages, database design. Learn what you can for penetration or vulnerability testing and a risk assessment. I will tell you this, and I don't think he will, I know he will not mind me telling you this, but you got to be a lifelong learner and so two years ago, I'm at home evening and I get a phone call on my cell phone and it's my boss, the commander of Air Force Space command, General, J. Raymond, who is now currently the Chief of Space Operations. And he is on temporary duty, flying overseas. He lands where he's going and first thing he does when he lands is he calls me and he goes JT, while I was traveling, I noticed that there were eBooks available on the commercial airliner I was traveling on and there was an ebook on something called scrumming and agile DevSecOps. And I read it, have you read it? And I said, no, sir. But if you tell me what the title of the book is, I will read it. And so I got to go to my staff meeting, the very next week, the next time we had a staff meeting and tell everybody in the staff meeting, hey, if the four star and the three star can read the book about scrumming, then I'm pretty sure all of you around this table and all our lieutenants and our captains our GS13s, All of our government employees can get smart on the scrumming development process. And interestingly as another side, I had a telephone call with him last year during the holidays, where he was trying to take some leave. And I said, sir, what are you up to today? Are you making eggnog for the event tonight or whatever. And the Chief of Space Operations told me no, I'm trying to teach myself Python. I'm at lesson two, and it's not going so well, but I'm going to figure this out. And so that kind of thing, if the chief of staff or the Chief of Space Operations can prioritize scrumming and Python language and innovation in his daily schedule, then we're definitely looking for other people who can do that. And we'll just say, lower levels of rank throughout our entire space force enterprise. Look, we don't need people that can code a satellite from scratch, but we need to know, we need to have people that have a basic grasp of the programming basics and cybersecurity requirements. And that can turn those things into meaningful actions, obviously in the space domain, things like basic physics and orbital mechanics are also important spaces, not an intuitive domain. So under understanding how things survive on orbit is really critical to making the right design and operational decisions. And I know there's probably a lot, because of this conference. I know there's probably a whole lot of high speed cybersecurity experts out in the audience. And I need those people in the US Space Force. The country is counting on it, but I wouldn't discount having people that are just cyber aware or cyber savvy. I have contracting officers and logisticians and program managers, and they don't have to be high end cybersecurity experts, but they have to be aware enough about it to be able to implement cyber security protections into our space systems. So the skill set is really, really broad. Our adversaries are pouring billions of dollars into designing and fielding offensive and destructive space, cybersecurity weapons. They repeatedly shown really a blatant disregard of safety and international norms for good behavior on orbit. And the cyber security aspects of our space systems is really a key battleground going forward so that we can maintain that. As I mentioned before, peaceful global comments of space, we really need all hands on deck. If you're interested in helping in uniform, if you're interested in helping, not in uniform, but as a government employee, a commercial or civil employee to help us make cyber security more important or more able to be developed for our space systems. And we'd really love to work with you or have you on the team to build that safe and secure future for our space systems. >> Lieutenant General John Thompson, great insight. Thank you for sharing all that awesome stories too, and motivation for the young next generation. The United States Space Force approach to cybersecurity. Really amazing talk, thank you for your time. Final parting question is, as you look out and you have your magic wand, what's your view for the next few years in terms of things that we could accomplish? It's a super exciting time. What do you hope for? >> So first of all, John, thanks to you and thanks to Cal Poly for the invitation and thanks to everybody for their interest in cybersecurity, especially as it relates to space systems, that's here at the conference. There's a quote, and I'll read it here from Bernard Schriever, who was the founder, if you will, a legend in a DoD space, the founder of the Western development division, which was a predecessor organization to Space and Missile System Center, General Schriever, I think captures the essence of how we see the next couple of years. "The world has an ample supply of people "who can always come up with a dozen good reasons "why new ideas will not work and should not be tried, "but the people who produce progress are breed apart. "They have the imagination, "the courage and the persistence to find solutions." And so I think if you're hoping that the next few years of space innovation and cybersecurity innovation are going to be upon a pony ride at the County fair, then perhaps you should look for another line of work, because I think the next few years in space and cybersecurity innovation are going to be more like a rodeo and a very dynamic rodeo as it goes. It is an awesome privilege to be part of this ecosystem. It's really an honor for me to be able to play some small role in the space ecosystem and trying to improve it while I'm trying to improve the chances of the United States of America in a space war fighting environment. And so I thank all of you for participating today and for this little bit of time that you've allowed me to share with you. Thank you. >> Sir, thank you for your leadership and thank you for the time for this awesome event, Space and Cyber Cybersecurity Symposium 2020, I'm John Furrier on behalf of Cal Poly, thanks for watching. (mellow music)

from the silicon angle media office in Boston Massachusetts it's the queue now here's your host David on tape hello everyone and welcome to this special presentation we're gonna introduce you to a new kind of company first you might recall we've been reporting extensively on multi cloud and the need to create consistent experiences across cloud at high performance now a key to that outcome is the ability to leave data in place where it belongs not moving it around and bringing a cloud like experience to that data we've talked about kubernetes as a multi cloud enabler but it's an insufficient condition for success latency matters in fact it's critical and the ability to access data at high speeds wherever that data lives well we believe be a fundamental tenet of multi cloud now today I want to introduce you to a company called vicinity V CIN ity the simplest way to think of this company is they turn wide area networks into a global land and with me is Craig Hobart to talk about this he's the VP at vicinity Craig good to see you again thanks a lot thanks Howie middays good to be back so when I first heard about this company I said wow no it can't that breaking the law of physics so first of all tell me a little bit background about the company sure yeah absolutely so about two decades ago this company was formerly known as Bay Microsystems they were they were asked to come up with a solution specific for the United States military and there was a couple of people involved in that that tender fortunately for us Bay Microsystems prevailed and they've had their solution in place with the US military for well over a decade approach in two decades so that is the foundation that is the infrastructure of where we originated so did I get it right it kind of come through what you do can you add some color to that yeah yeah as much as I can right so based on who the the main consumer is so we do some very creative things where we we take the benefits of tcp/ip which is the retransmit the ability to ensure the data arrives there in one piece but we take away all the bad things with it things like dropping packets typically ones are lossy networks and and most people are accustomed to two fiber channel networks which of course which are lossless right and so what we've done is take the beauty of tcp/ip but remove the hindrances to it and that's how we get it to function at the same speeds as Al and overall one so but there's got to be more to it than that I mean it just sounds like magic right so you're able to leave data in place and access it at very low latency very high speeds so you know what's the secret sauce behind that is it is it you know architecture patents I mean yeah absolutely so we have over 30 unique patents that contribute to that we're not just doing those things that I just thought about before is a lot more we're actually shortly in the typical OSI stack the the moving through those layers and using our DMA so a lot of companies users today obviously infinite out uses in between the nodes Dell uses at HP is it's a very ubiquitous technology but typically it has a very short span it's designed for low latency as a 21-foot limitation there's certain things you can do to get around that now so what we did in our earlier iterations is extend that so you could go across the world but utilizing that inside a proprietary sort of l2 a tunneling protocol allows you to reinstate those calls that happened on the local side and bring them up on the other side of the world so presumably that sets up for Rocky it does yeah and rocky to you absolutely so we use that we use it converged Ethernet we can do some magical things where we can go in InfiniBand and potentially come out rocky at the other end there's a lot of really good things that we do obviously if it uh bans expensive converged Ethernet it's a lot more feasible and a lot easier to adapt when we can make sure I understand this so you think InfiniBand you're thinking you know in a data center you know proximate and shocking synchronous distances are you saying that you can extend that we can but extended not extending finna band but you're saying you can you translate it into Ethernet yeah yeah we we translate into we have some proprietary mechanisms obviously that that all the patents on but in essence that's exactly what we're doing yeah we take in the earlier years InfiniBand and extend that to wherever it needed to be over any distance and and now we do it with conversion and infinite in like speeds yeah yeah so obviously you've got that we can't get around physics oh I mean it for instance between our Maryland office and our San Jose office it's a 60 millisecond r/t team we can't get beyond that we can't achieve physics but what we can do is deliver us sometimes a 20x payload inside that same RTT so in essence you could argue that would be due to the speed of light by delivering a higher payload is what's the trade-off I mean there's got to be something here yeah so it's today it's not it's not ideal for every single situation if you were to do a transactional LTP a database at one side of the world to the other it would that would not be great for that something files yeah so so what we actually do I mean some some great examples we have is seismic data we have some companies that are doing seismic exploration and it used to take a lot of time to bring that data back to shore copied to a disk array and then you know copied to multiple disk arrays across the world so people can analyze it in that particularly use case we bring that data back we can even access it via satellite directly from the boats that are doing the the surveys and then we can have multiple people around the world looking at that sample live when we do a demonstration for our customers that shows that so that's one great example of time to market and getting ahead of your competition what's the file system underneath so we have a choice of different file system is a parallel file system we chose spectrum Connect it's a very ubiquitous file system it's well known it has there is no other file system that has the the hours of runtime that that has we off you skate the complexities from the customers we do all of the tuning so it's a custom solution and so they don't see it but we do have some of the hyper scales that want to use lustre and cluster and be GFS and things that we can accommodate those so you have a choice but the preferred is gpfs is a custom one we have you absolutely if somebody wants to use another one we have done that and can certainly have dialogues around it could talk about how this is different from competitors I think of like guys like doing Wayne acceleration sure sure yeah so what acceleration regardless of who you are today with it's predicated upon caching substantial caching and some of the problems with that are obviously once you turn on encryption that compression and those deduplication or data reduction technologies are hampered in that caching based on who our primary customer was we're handed encrypted data from them we encrypted as well so we have double layers of encrypted data and that does not affect our performance so massive underlying technological differences that allow you to adapt to the modern world with encrypted data so we've been talking about I said in the intro a lot about multi cloud can you tell us sooner where do you fit in but first of all how do you see that evolving sure and where do you guys fit in Joe so I actually read to assess very certain dividends I read your article before we had a dialogue last week and there was a good article talking about the complexities around multi cloud and I think you know you look at Google it's got some refactoring involved in it they're all great approaches we think the best way to deal with multi cloud today is to hold your data yourself and bring those services that you want to it and before we came along you couldn't do that so think now a movie studio we have a company in California that needs people working on video editing across the world and typically they would proliferate multiple copies out to storage in India and China and Australia and not only is that costly but it's incredibly time consuming and in one of those instances it opens up security holes and the movies were getting hacked and stolen and of course that's billions of dollars worth of damage to to any movie company so by having one set of security tenants in your in your physical place you can now bring anybody you want to consume that day to bring them all together bid GCP AWS as you for the compute and you maintain your data and that segues well into things like gdpr and things like that where the data isn't moving so you're not affected by those rules and regulations the data stays in one place it's we think it's a huge advantage so has that helped you get some business I mean the fact that you have to move data and you can keep it in you can give us an example yeah it absolutely doesn't mean if you think of companies like pharmaceutical companies that have a lot of data to process whether it's electron microscopy data nano tissue samples they need heavy iron to do that we're talking craze so we can facilitate the ability to rent out supercomputers and the security company of the farmers is happy to do that because it's not leaving the four walls present the data and run it live because we're getting land speeds right we're giving you land speed performance over the wine so it's it's possible we've actually done it for them to do that craze make money by renting the farmers are happy because they can't afford craze it's a great way to accelerate time to marketing in that case they're making drug specific for your genome specific for your body tissue so the efficacy of the drugs is greatly improved as well well as you have been we know the storage business primary storage right now is I've said it's a knife fight yeah and it's a cloud is eating away at it flash was injected and gave people a lot of head rooms and they're not buying spindles for performance anymore but but data protection and backup and and data management is really taking off do you guys fit in there is are there use cases for you you there when you think of companies like cookie City and rubric and and many others that are the cloud seems to be a tailwind for them is it a tailwind for you I think so and I think he just brought up a great point if you look at and again another one of your articles I'm giving you some thanks Rick you know saying I won't forget it is the article you wrote I thought was excellent about how data is changed it's not so much about the primary data now it's about the backup data and what rubric and cohesive tea especially have done is bring value to that data and they've elevated it up the stack for analytics and AI and made available to DevOps and that's brilliant but today that can find it too within the four walls of that company what vicinity can do for those companies has come along and make that data available anywhere in the world at anytime so if they've got different countries that they're trying to sell into that may have diff back up types or different data they can access this and model the data and see how it's relevant to their specific industry right as we say our zeros and ones are different than your zeros and ones so it's a massive expansion it take that richness that they've created and extrapolate that globally and that's what facility brings to the table you know within the days of big data we used to look at high performance computing as an example going more into commercial notes that's clearly happened but mainstream is still VMware is there a VMware play for you guys or opportunity great question great question in q1 of this year so so January end of January 2020 typically in the intro we talked about how we were born on a6 which is incredibly expensive and limited you get one go ahead and then we move to FPGAs we actually wrote a lot of libraries that took the FPGAs into a VMware instance and so what we're doing now with our customers is when we go in and present they say there's no way you can do this and we show them the demo when we actually leave they can log-in download to VMware instances put one in in these case one the west coast or with one of my customers we have now one on the east coast one in London download the VM and see the improvement that we can get over their dedicated lines or even the Internet by using the VM fact we did that in a test with AWS last week and got a 90 percent improvement just using the VM so when you are talking to customers what's the you know what's the the situation that you're looking for the the problem that comes up that you say bone that's vicinity maybe you could show not you do slash call in there so I think a lot of that is people looking to use multi cloud right that aren't sure which way they want to go how they want to do it and for other companies that can't move the data there's a lot of companies that either went to the cloud and came back or cannot go to the cloud because of the sensitivity of the data so and also things like the the seismic exploration right there is no cloud solution that makes that expedient enough to consume it as it's been developed and so anybody that needs movie editing large file transfer dr you know if you're moving a lot of files from one location to another we can't get involved in storage replication but if it's a file share we can do that and one of the great things we do is if you have cysts or NFS shares today we can consume those shares with the with the spectrum scale the gpfs under the cover and make that appear anywhere else in the world and we do that through our proprietary technology of course so now remote offices can collapse a lot of the infrastructure they have and consume the resources from the main data center because we can reach right back here at land space they just become an extension of the land no different than me plug in the laptop into an Ethernet you pay a penalty on first byte we do but it's almost transparent because of the way tcp/ip works very chatty yeah it is so we drop all that and that that's a great question an analogy we use in house is you turn on a garden house and it takes a few seconds for that garden hose to fill but with us that water stream is constant and it's constantly output in water with tcp/ip a bit stop start stop start stop start and if you have to start doing retransmit which is a regular occurrence of tcp/ip and that entire capacity of that garden hose will be dropped and then refilled and this is where our advantage is the ability to keep that full and keep serving data in that what you just described makes people really think twice about multi clouds essentially they want to put the right workload in the right place and kind of leave it there and essentially it's like the old mini computer days they're creating you know silos you're helping sort of bridge those we are that and that is the plot and so you know we have B to B we are B to C I mean if you sit and think about the possibilities I mean it could end up on every one of these right this software you know do we tackle every Wireless point this is this is some of the things that we can do you're an app or do we put vicinity on that to take the the regular tcp/ip and send the communication you know through through our proprietary Network around proprietary configuration so there's a lot of things that we can do we can we can affect everybody and that is that is the goal so divide by hardware from you or software or both that's another great question so if you are in a data center in the analogy I just gave before about being a a big data center you would use a piece of hardware that's got accelerants in it and then the remote office could use a smaller piece of hardware or just the VM with the movie company example I gave you earlier India and Australia is edit in live files on the west coast of the United States of America just using the VM so it depends what we come in as we look at your needs and we don't oversell you we try and sell you the correct solution and that typically is a combination of some hardware in the main data center and some software at the others so I've said you know multi-cloud in many ways creates more problems today than it solves you guys are really in there attacking that multi-cloud is a reality it's it's happening you know I said historically it's been a symptom of multi-vendor but now it's becoming increasingly a strategy and I think frankly I think companies like yours are critical in the ecosystem to really you know drive that transformation for organizations so congratulations thank you thank you we hope so and I'm sure we'll be seeing more of you in the future excellent well thanks for coming in Craig and we'll talk to you soon thank you for watching everybody this is Dave latte for the cube and we'll see you next time

>> Announcer: Live from San Diego, California it's The Cube! Covering Cisco Live US 2019. Brought to you by Cisco and it's ecosystem partners. >> Welcome back to The Cube's coverage of Cisco Live Day 2 from sunny San Diego. I'm Lisa Martin joined by Dave Vallante. Dave and I have an alumni, a Cube alumni back with us, Jeff Moncrief, consulting systems engineer from Cisco. Jeff, welcome back! >> Thank you very much, it's great to be back! >> So, we're in the DevNet Zone, loads of buzz going on behind us. This community is nearly 600,000 strong. We want to talk with you about Stealthwatch. You did a very interesting talk yesterday. You said, it had a couple hundred folks in there. War stories from real networks. War stories ... strong descriptor. Talk to us about what that means, what some of those war stories are, and how Stealthwatch can help customers learn from that and eradicate those. >> So it's called Saved by Stealthwatch. It was a really good session. This is the third Cisco Live that I've presented this session at. And it's really just stories from actual customer networks where I've actually deployed Stealthwatch into. I've been selling Stealthwatch for about five years now. And I've compiled quite a list of stories, right? And it really ... if you think about advanced threats and insider threats and those kinds of exciting things, the presentation was really about getting back to fundamentals. Getting back to the fact that in all these years that I've been working with customers and using Stealthwatch, a lot of the scary things that I have found have nothing to do with that. With the advanced type threat stuff. It really has to do with the fact that they're forgetting the basics. Their firewalls are wide open, their networks are flat. Their segmentation boundaries aren't being adhered to. So it's allowed us to come in and expose a lot of scary things that were going on and they were just completely oblivious to it. >> Why are those gaps there? Is it because of a change management issue? Technology's moving so quickly? Lack of automation? >> Yeah, I think there's a couple reasons that I've seen. It's a recurring theme really. Limited resources ... number one. Number two, limited budgets, so your priorities have to shift. But I think a big one that I've seen a lot is turnover and attrition. A lot of times we'll go in with Stealthwatch and we'll kick off an evaluation or whatnot and the customer will say, I just don't know what's there. I don't know if I have 100 machines that need visibility or for a thousand. And I'm a Stealthwatch cloud consulting systems engineer so the cloud world is where I spend a lot of my time now and what I'm seeing as it relates to the cloud realm is that's exponentially worse now. Because now you've got things like devops and shadow IT that are all playing in the customer's public cloud environment deploying workloads, deploying instances and building things that the security team has no awareness of. So there's a lot of things that are living and breathing on the network that they just don't know about. >> And so the tribal knowledge leaves the building, how do you guys help solve that problem? >> So we come in ... and you know the last time that you and I spoke, you used the term cockroaches, I think, which I loved. I actually have used that a lot since then, so thank you for that. >> Dave: Yeah, you're welcome. >> No, but, you know ... we come in and we actually, we turn the customer's network infrastructure ... Whether it's on-prem or in the public cloud into a giant security sensor grid. And we leverage something called NetFlow, which you've probably heard of. And it's essentially allowing us to account for every conversation throughout the entire infrastructure, whether or not it's on-prem or in the public cloud or maybe even in a private cloud. We've got you covered in that area. And it allows us to expose every one of those living, breathing things. And then we can just query the system. So think of us like a giant network DVR on steroids. We see everything, you can't hide from us, because we're using the network to look at everything. And then we can just set little trip wires up. And that's kind of what I go into in my presentation also is how you can set these trip wires ahead of time to find things that are going on that you just didn't know about and frankly, they're probably going to scare ya. >> One of the stories that you shared in your talk yesterday. You talk about people really forgetting the basics. A university that had a vending machine breach. You just think, a vending machine in a cafeteria? >> Jeff: That's right. >> Really? Tell us about that. What kind of data was exposed from a vending machine? >> So that's one of my favorite stories to tell. We had gone in and we'd installed Stealthwatch at a small university in the US. And they had a very small team. Okay, you're going to see that recurring theme. Limited staff. And they really just had a firewall. Okay, that was what they were doing for security. So we came in, we enabled NetFlow, we kind of let Stealthwatch do it's thing for a couple of days, and I just queried the system. Okay, it's not rocket science, it's not AI a lot of times, it's really the fundamentals. And I just said, tell me anything talking on remote desktop protocols inside the network out to the internet. And lo and behold, there was one IP address that had communication from it to every bad country you can imagine ... actively. And I said to them ... I said, what is this IP address? What's it doing? And that was in the conference room in the university with their staff and the guy looked it up in the asset inventory system, and he looked at me and he goes, that's a vending machine. And I said, a vending machine? And he said, yeah. And then I was like, okay, well that's a first, I've never heard of that before. And he goes wait a minute, it's a dirty tray return machine. You ever heard of one of those? >> Lisa: No. >> I hadn't either. >> Lisa: Explain. >> So for loss prevention, I guess universities and other public institutions, they will buy these unique vending machines that are designed for loss prevention. So that the college students don't go around and you know, steal or throw away the trays from the cafeteria. You have to return the tray to get a coin. There's a common supermarket chain that does the same thing with their shopping carts. And it's for loss prevention. So I said, okay, that's pretty strange. Even stranger than just vending machine. And I said, well did you realize that it was talking to a remote desktop all over the world? And he said no. And I said so, can you tell me what it has access to? So he looked it up in the firewall manager right there and he said, it has access to the entire network. Flat network, no segmentation. No telling how long this had been going on, and we exposed it. >> And Stealthwatch exposes those gaps with just kind of old school knock on the door. >> Yeah, it really is. We're talking about fundamental network telemetry that we're gathering off the route switch infrastructure itself. You know, obviously, we're at Cisco Live, we work really well with Cisco gear. Cisco actually invented NetFlow about 20 years ago. And we leveraged that to give visibility footprint that allow us to expose things like the vending machine. I've found hospital x-ray machines that were scanning all the US military, for instance. I find things in the cloud that are just completely wide open from a security ACL standpoint. So we've got that fundamental level of visibility with Stealthwatch, and then we kick in some really cool machine learning and statistical analytics and machine running analytics and that allows us to look for anomalies that would be indicators of compromise. So we're taking that visibility footprint and we're taking it to that next level looking for threats that might be in the customer's environment. >> So before we get to the machine intelligence, I presume that cloud and containers only makes this problem worse. What are you seeing in the field? How are you dealing with that? >> So we're in a landscape today where we've got a lot of customers that might be cloud averse. But we've also got a lot of customers that are on the wide other side of that spectrum and they're very cloud progressive. And a lot of them are doing things like server-less micro services, containers and, when you think of containers you think of container orchestration ... kubernetes. So Stealthwatch Cloud is actually in that realm right now today, able to protect and illuminate those environments. That's really the Wild West right now, is trying to protect those very abstract server-less and containerized environments but yeah, we come in, we are able to deploy inside kubernetes clusters or AWS or azure or GCP, and tell the Stealthwatch story in those environments, find segmentation violations, find firewall holes just like we would on premise, and then look for anomalies that would be interesting. >> So the security paradigm for those three you mentioned, those three cloud vendors, and you're on-prem, and maybe even some of your partners, is a lot of variability there. How should customers deal with maintaining the edicts of the organization and sort of busting down those silos? >> Yeah, so you think about like Stealthwatch Cloud which is the product that I'm a CSE for, we're really focusing on automation, high efficacy and accuracy. All right, we're not going to be triggering hundreds or thousands of alerts whenever you plug us in. It's going to further bog down a limited team. They've got limited time and they have to change their priorities constantly. This solution is designed to work immediately out of the box quickly deploy within a matter of hours. It's all SAAS based so actually it lives in the cloud. And it really takes that burden off of the organization of having to go and set a bunch of policies and trip wires and alerts. It does it automatically. It's going to let you know when you need to take a look at it so that you can focus on your other priorities. >> So curious where your conversations are within an organization - whether it's a hospital, or a university when what you're finding is in this multi-cloud world that we live in where there's attrition and all of these other factors contributing to organizations that don't know what they have with multi-cloud edge comes this very amorphous perimeter, right? Where are those conversations because if data is the lifeblood of an organization, if it's not secure and protected, if it's exposed there's a waterfall of problems that could come with that. So is this being elevated into the C-Suite of an organization? How do you start those conversations? >> So it's not just the C-Suite and the executive type structure that we're having to talk to now, traditionally we would go in with the Stealthwatch opportunity and talk to the teams in the organization it's going to be the InfoSec team, right? As we move to the cloud though, we're talking about a whole bunch of different teams. You've got the InfoSec team, you've got the network operations team now, they're deploying those workloads. The big one though that we've really got to think about and what we've really got to educate our customers on is the Dev Ops teams. Because the Dev Ops teams, they're really the ones that are deploying those cloud workloads now. You've got to think about ... they've got API access, they've got direct console login access. So you've got multiple different entry points now into all these different heterogeneous environments. And a lot of times, we'll go in and we'll turn on Stealthwatch and we show the organization, yeah, you knew that Dev Ops was in the VPC's deploying things, but you didn't know the extent that they were deploying them. >> Lights up like a Christmas tree? >> Yeah, lights up like a Christmas tree and like a conversation I had last week with a customer. I asked them, I said, all right so you're in AWS, are we talking do you have 50 instances or do you have 500? He said, I have no idea. Because I'm not the one deploying these instances. I'm just lucky enough to get permission to have access to them to let you plug your stuff in to show me what's going on in that environment. But yet they're in charge of securing that data. So it's quite frightening. >> So you've got discovery, you've got ways to expose the gaps, and then you're obviously advising on remediation activity. And you're also bringing in machine intelligence. So what's the endgame there? Is it automation? Is it systems of agency where the machine is actually taking action? Can you explain that? So when the statistical analysis comes in and the anomaly detection comes in, it's really that network DVR, so we've got the data, now let's do some really cool things with it. And that's where we're in actually, for every single one of these entities, and I do stress entities because the days of operating systems and IP addresses are going away. Face it, it's happening. Things are becoming more and more abstract. You know, API keys, user accounts, lambda's and runtime compute, we have to think about those. So what we do for all these different entities is we build a model for each one of these, and that model, that's where all the math and the AI comes in. We're going to learn Known Good for it. Who do they talk to? How much data's sent or received? And then we start looking for activity in that infrastructure as it relates to that entity that's outside of that Known Good model. So that would be the anomaly detection and you know, our anomaly detection, it really can be attributed to two different major categories. Number one is going to be, we're looking for things that cross the cyber kill chain. So those different IOC's as a threat actually manifests. That's what the anomaly detection's doing. And then we're also looking for just straight compliance and configuration violations in the customer's cloud infrastructure, for instance, that would just be a flat out security risk today, day one, forget base lining anomaly detection, it should just not be configured that way. >> Let's see, roughly 25% of Cisco's revenue is in services, what role does the customer service team play in all this? How do you interact ... how do the product guys and the service guys work together? >> So we've got a great customer experience team, customer services team for Stealthwatch and it doesn't matter if we're talking Stealthwatch on-premise or the Stealthwatch cloud, they cover both. And what will happen is we'll come in from a pre-sales standpoint, we do the evaluation, show good value, and then we've got a good relationship with the CX team where we'll hand that off to them, and then we'll work with the CX team to make sure that customer is good to go, they're taken care of, and it's not we've sold this and we're just going to forget you type scenario. They do a good job of coming in, they make sure that the customer's needs are met, any feature requests that they like taken care of. You know, they have routine touchpoints with the customers and they make sure that the product, for all intents and purposes, doesn't lose interest or visibility in the customer's environment. That they're using it, they're getting good value out of it, and we're going to build a relationship. I call it cradle to grave. We're going to be with that customer cradle to grave. >> Now Jeff, one of the things I didn't talk to you about at Google Next was ... first I got to ask you, you're a security guy, right? Have you always been a security guy? >> Yeah, security for about 20 years now, dating back to internet security systems. >> The question I often ask security guys is who's your favorite superhero? >> My favorite superhero ... I'd say Batman. >> Dave: Batman? >> Yeah. >> I like Batman. (chuckles) The reason I ask is that somebody told me one time that true security guys, they love superheroes because they grew up kind of wanting to save the world and protect the innocent. So ... just had to ask. >> Yeah there you go .. Batman. >> I'm sensing a tattoo coming. Last question for you Jeff is in terms of time to business impact, the vending machine story is just so polarizing because it's such a shocking massive exposure point, did they ever discover how long it had been open and in terms of being able to remedy that, how quickly can Stealthwatch come in, identify these- >> So very quick operation wise. So like the vending machine story, that's something that if you turn on Flow, and you send it to Stealthwatch right now, we can pick that up in 10 minutes. That quick to visibility and value. Now how long has it been going on? A lot of times they can't answer that question because they've never had anything to illuminate that to begin with. But moving forward, now they've got a forensic incident response audit trail capability with Stealthwatch which is actually a pretty common use case. Especially if you think about things like PCI that have got auto requirements and whatnot. A lot of organizations if they're not using a Flow based security analytics tool, they can't always meet those audit and forensic requirements. So at least from the point of installing Stealthwatch they'll be good to go from that point forward. >> So if they can find an anomaly that needs to be rectified in 10 minutes, what's the next step for them to actually completely close that gap? >> So like with Cisco Identity Services engine, we've got a great integration there where we can actually take action, shut off that machine instantly. We can shut off a switch port. We can isolate that machine to an isolated sandboxed VLAN, get it off the network, and then in the cloud, we can do things like automated remediation. We can use things like Amazon and Lambda to actually shut off an instance that might be compromised. We can actually use Lambda's to insert firewall rules. So if we find a hole, we can plug it. Very easily, automated- >> Ship a function to it and plug a hole. >> Batman slash detective. I think you need a tattoo and a badge. >> I can work on that, I like it. >> Jeff thank you so much for joining Dave and me on The Cube this afternoon. >> My pleasure. >> Really interesting stuff, we appreciate your time. >> Absolutely. >> For Dave Vallante, I'm Lisa Martin. You're watching The Cube's second day of coverage of Cisco Live from San Diego. Thanks for watching. (upbeat music)

>> From Times Square, in the heart of New York City, it's theCUBE. Covering Imagine 2018. Brought to you by Automation Anywhere. >> Welcome back everybody, Jeff Frick here with theCUBE, we are at Automation Anywhere in midtown Manhattan, 2018, excited to have our next guest, he's Kevin Kroen, he's partner of financial services, intelligent automation leader at PWC, Kevin, great to see you. >> Thank you. >> So financial services seems to be a theme, we're here in Manhattan, why is financial services an early adopter or maybe a frequent adopter or an advanced adopter of the RPA technology? >> Sure, so I think as we see our financial services clients and their agendas, there's been a huge focus on productivity and simplifying their overall operating model over the past couple of years. Banks in particular have gone through several years of having to focus their spending on non discretionary manners like regulatory compliance and risk management. And what that's generated is a need, as they started looking towards the next generation to really start thinking about what they're gonna look like in a post regulatory environment. And automation has quickly risen to the top of the agenda. >> What they're gonna look like in a post regulatory environment. >> Yes. >> Why a post regulate? >> Well I mean if you look through, you know what banks have had to deal with in term of Dodd-Frank, in terms of CCAR, you know, the regulation from federal reserve, these are things that took a lot of spending both on implementing operational processes and on implementing technology. A lot of that work is starting to you know, the banks are putting that behind themselves and so as they look forward and look at how they're going to gain more profitability in the future, the challenge becomes, there's not necessarily a new set of product innovation coming in, and so you have to really look at the expense line. >> Right. >> And so because of that automation has risen to the top of that agenda and so this continues to be one of the top areas of interest that we're getting from our clients. >> Right, so when you say post regulatory, you mean like a new regulation that they have to respond to, not that they're suddenly not gonna be regulated. >> There's not a lot of new regulations coming in right now, especially- >> That pesky one last week, GDRP. >> Yeah but in the US we're in an environment right now, there was just, you know, the revisions to the Dodd-Frank bill that were passed a lot of regulatory rules were actually being loosened so you don't necessarily have an increase in dollars that are going to be going into that. >> Right right, so it just always fascinates me, right, I thought ERP was supposed to wring out all the efficiency in our systems but that was not the case, not even by a long shot and now we continue to find these new avenues for more efficiency and clearly this is a big one that we've stumbled upon. >> Yeah, you know I think it's interesting, when you look at big technology investment over the last decade or two, you could argue a lot of efforts been focused at what I call the kind of core infrastructure and core plumbing so you know, how do I consolidate data into a single location? How do I make sure that data reconciles into different parts of my organization but that like kind of last mile of what someone does as part of their day to day business process was never really addressed, you know or is only addressed in pieces, and so I think as you start looking at the productivity term and how you actually start getting efficiency, we have very few clients that are saying, I want to take on that next big ERP type of limitation or I'm ready to spend 300 million dollars on a new project, they're looking to try to get the most value out of what they already have and they're actually looking to look at that last mile and how can they actually gain some benefit off it so the RPA technologies I think we're one of the catalysts of just being the perfect technology in the right place at the right time from a current business environment, a current technology spend perspective. >> Yeah it's pretty interesting Mihir was talking about, you know one of the big benefits is that you can take advantage of your existing infrastructure, you know, it's not a big giant rip and replace project but it's, again, it's this marginal incremental automation that you just get little benefit, little benefit, little benefit, end of the day, turns into a big benefit. >> Yeah, and I think that's, you know, it's quick, it's fast, it's, you know it can be implemented in an agile manner and you know, our clients are continuously telling us over and over again, they're willing to invest, but they wanna invest where they're gonna see a tangible payback immediately. >> Right. >> And I think when you start to talk the concept of digital transformation, it can mean a lot of different things to a lot of different people but there are big picture changes that could be made, those may be longer term trends but they're more immediate things and more immediate benefits that could be gained and I think that's really the sweet spot of where RPA and Automation Anywhere fall into. >> I was just looking up Jeff Immelt in his key note said this is the easy fountain money of any digital transformation project, I think that was the quote, that you'll ever do. That's a pretty nice endorsement. >> Yeah and it's, as we go out, we talk to CFOs, COOs, CIOs, you know, it's, the value proposition is really attractive because, you know, there have been, there's a track record of failed, technology projects failed big transformation projects and, you know, no one wants to necessarily risk their career on creating the next big failure and so I think using technology like RPA almost as an entry point or kind of like a gateway drug into the digital world, see the benefits, start to understand what are some of the business problems and historical kind of, you know, things you're trying to untangle in your infrastructure, attack that and then, you know, start to layer on additional things on top of that, once you get good with RPA and then you can start figuring out, okay, that's they gateway to artificial intelligence, okay how do I start to apply AI across my organization? As you get beyond AI, okay, how do I get into, more advanced state infrastructure and you can start thinking about this world where you can, you know, rather than do the big, five year project where you're gonna try to solve world hunger, it gives you a chance to kind of incrementally go digital over time and I think that's definitely the direction we see a lot of our clients wanting to go in. >> Right, Kevin I want to get your feedback on another topic that came up again in the keynote, was just security, you know it was like the last thing that was mentioned, you know, like A B C D E F G and security, financial services, obviously security is number one, it's baked into everything that everyone's trying to do now, it's no longer this big moat and wall, but it's got to be everywhere so I'm just curious, from the customer adoption point of view, where does security come up in the conversation, has it been a big deal, is it just assumed, is there a lot of good stuff that you can demonstrate to clients, how does security fit within this whole RPA world? >> You know with security and I would just say the broader kind of risk management pieces to the operator infrastructure are one of the first questions we get asked and a highly regulated environment like financial services, you know, the technology is easy and powerful with RPA but you also have to take a step back and say okay, I can program a bot to go do anything in my infrastructure, and that could mean running a reconciliation or it could mean going to our wire system and trying to send money out the door. And so there's a lot of concern around, not only understanding the technical aspects to you know, how the tools work with different types of security technologies, but more looking at your approach to entitlements and your approach to how you actually manage who has access to code bots, deployed bots in production, the overtime, understand what happens, you know we did a presentation to a board of directors a couple months ago on kind of automation more broadly and you know this is, you know, senior level executives the first question we got was, you know, okay, how do I prevent the 22 year old kid that just came off of campus from building a bot that no one knows about, setting it loose in our infrastructure and it going rogue, right? And so I mean this group was pretty savvy, they caught onto it very quickly and you know, the CIO of this client was sitting next to me and she kind of didn't have an immediate answer to that and I think that was kind of the a-ha moment, this is something we really need to put some thought into around you know, who are we gonna let build bots, what policies are gonna be set around how bots get deployed into our production environment, how are we gonna monitor what happens? You know how are we gonna get our auditors, our operational risk folks, our regulators, how are we gonna get all our different stakeholder groups comfortable that we have a well controlled, well functioning bot infrastructure that exists? >> Right, cause the bots actually act like people, they're entitled as like a role right, within the organization? >> We have clients that have literally had to set bots up as new employees, like they get onboarded, they have a, you go to the corporate directory and you can see a picture of R2D2, right like and it's the way they get around how they get a bot intel to a system but it's still, it's not a human right, so you still have to have a policy for how you actually will get code that uses that bot entitlement to function right and so that has to be done in a well disciplined, well controlled manner. >> Right, because to give them the ability to provide information to help a person make a decision is very different then basically enabling them to make that decision and take proactive action. >> Exactly. >> Yeah, it's funny we talked to Dr. Robert Gates at a show a little while ago and he said the only place in the US military where a machine can actually shoot a gun is on the Korean border, but every place else they can make suggestions but ultimately it's gotta be a person that makes the decision to push the button. >> And we're seeing, you know, trying to equate that to financial services, you see a similar pattern where there are certain areas where people are very comfortable playing this technology, you know you get into accounting and reporting and you know more back office type processes, you got other areas that people are a little less comfortable, you know anything that touches kind of wire systems or touches things that, you know, going out the door, touches kind of core trading processes, things like that there's a different risk profile associated with it. I think the other challenge is too is RPA is getting the gateway drug into this going back to my previous point, as you start to layer additional technologies into this, you might have less transparency over understanding clearly what's happening, especially as artificial intelligence takes a much broader role in this and so there's gonna be a lot of scrutiny I think over the next couple years put into like how do I understand the models that are created by artificial intelligence technologies and those decisions that are being made because you, if your regulator says, okay, why did you make this decision, you have to be able to explain it as the supervisor of that intelligent bot, you can't just say, oh it's cause what the machine told me to do, as so, that'll be one of the interesting challenges that's ahead of us. >> Yeah it's good, I mean it's part of the whole scale of conversation, I had interesting conversation with a guy, talking about really opening up those AI boxes so that you have an auditable process, right, you can actually point to why it made the decision even if you're not the one that made it in real time and it's doing it really really quickly so. >> Exactly. >> Really important piece. >> Yeah and as PWC, it's one of our challenges, as a consultant I'm helping clients implement this, my colleagues in our audit practice are now grappling with that same question because we're increasingly being asked to audit that type of infrastructure and have to prove that something did what it was suppose to have done. >> Right, right, alright Kevin, well nothing but opportunities for you ahead and thanks for taking a few minutes to stop by. >> Okay, thank you for having me. >> Alright, he's Kevin, I'm Jeff, you're watching theCUBE from Automation Anywhere, Imagine 2018 in Manhattan, thanks for watching. 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>> Host: New York City, it's The Cube covering Cyber Connect 2017, brought to you by Centrify and the Institute for Critical Infrastructure Technology. >> Hey, welcome back, everyone. This the Cube's live coverage in New York City. This is the Cyber Connect 2017, presented by Centrify, underwritten by such a large industry event. I'm John Furrier, Dave Vellante. Our next guest is Byron Acohido who's the journalist at lastwatchdog.com. Thanks for joining us, welcome to The Cube. >> Thank you, pleasure to be here. >> So, seasoned journalist, there's a lot to report. Cyber is great, we heard a great talk this morning around the national issues around the government. But businesses are also struggling, too, that seems to be the theme of this event, inaugural event. >> It really is a terrific topic that touches everything that we're doing, the way we live our lives today. So, yeah, this is a terrific event where some of the smartest minds dealing with it come together to talk about the issues. >> What's the top level story in your mind in this industry right now? Chaos, is it data, civil liberties, common threats? How do you stack rank in level of importance, the most important story? >> You know, it really is all of the above. I had the privilege to sit at lunch with General Keith Alexander. I've seen him speak before at different security events. So it was a small group of the keynote speakers, and Tom Kemp, the CEO of Centrify. And he just nailed it. He basically, what resonated with me was he said basically we're kind of like where we were, where the world was at the start of World War I, where Russia and Germany and England, we're all kind of lining up, and Serbia was in the middle, and nobody really knew the significance of what lay ahead, and the US was on the sidelines. And all these things were just going to converge and create this huge chaos. That's what he compared it today, except we're in the digital space with that, because we're moving into cloud computing, mobile devices, destruction of privacy, and then now the nation states, Russia is lining up, North Korea, and Iran. We are doing it too, that was probably one of the most interesting things that came at you. >> His rhetoric was very high on the, hey, get our act together, country, attitude. Like, we got a lot to bring to the table, he highlighted a couple use cases and some war stories that the NSA's been involved in, but almost kind of teasing out, like we're kind of getting in our own way if we don't reimagine this. >> Yes, he is a very great advocate for the private sector industry, but not just industry, the different major verticals like especially the financial sector and the energy sector to put aside some of the competitive urges they have and recognize that this is going on. >> Okay, but I got to ask you, as a journalist, Last Watchdog, General Alexander definitely came down, when he sort of addressed privacy, and Snowden, and the whole story he told about the gentleman from the ACLU who came in a skeptic and left an advocate. As a journalist whose job is to be a skeptic, did you buy that? Does your community buy that? What's the counterpoint to that narrative that we heard this morning? >> Well, actually I think he hit it right on the head. As a journalist, why I got into this business and am still doing it after all these years is if I can do a little bit to shed a little bit of light on something that helps the public recognize what's going on, that's what I'm here to do. And this topic is just so rich and touches everything. We were talking just about the nation state level of it, but really it effects down to what we're doing as a society, what Google, and Facebook, and Twitter, how they're shaping our society and how that impacts privacy. >> We were talking last night, Dave, about the Twitter, and Facebook, and Alphabet in front of the Senate hearings last week, and how it means, in terms, he brought it up today. The common protection of America in this time, given the past election, that was the context of the Google thing, really has got a whole opportunity to reimagine how we work as a society in America, but also on the global stage. You got China, Russia, and the big actors. So, it's interesting, can we eventually reimagine, use this opportunity as the greatest crisis to transform the crap that's out there today. Divisiveness, no trust. We're living in an era now where, in my life time I can honestly say I've never seen it this shitty before. I mean, it's bad. I mean, it's like the younger generation looking at us, looking at, oh, Trump this, Trump that, I don't trust anybody. And the government has an opportunity. >> Alright, but wait a minute. So, I'm down the middle, as you know, but I'm going to play skeptic here a little bit. What I basically heard from General Alexander this morning was we got vetted by the ACLU, they threw sort of holy water on it, and we followed the law. And I believe everything he said, but I didn't know about that law until Snowden went public, and I agree with you, Snowden should be in jail. >> John: I didn't say that. >> You did, you said that a couple, few years ago on The Cube, you said that. Anyway, regardless. >> I'm going to go find the archive. >> Maybe I'm rewriting history, but those laws were enacted kind of in a clandestine manner, so I put it out to both of you guys. As a citizen, are you willing to say, okay, I'll give up maybe some of my privacy rights for protection? I know where I stand on that, but I'm just asking you guys. I mean, do all your readers sort of agree with that narrative? Do all of The Cube? >> If you look at the World War I example the general, he brought up at lunch, I wasn't there, but just me thinking about that, it brings up a good perspective. If you look at reinventing how society in America is done, what will you give up for safety? These are some of the questions. What does patriotizing mean for if industry's going to work together, what does it mean to be a patriot? What I heard from the general onstage today was, we're screwed if we don't figure this out, because the war, it's coming. It's happening at massive speeds. >> Again, I know where I stand on this. I'm a law-abiding citizen. >> - Byron, what do you think? >> Go ahead and snoop me, but I know people who would say no, that's violating my constitutional rights. I dunno, it's worth a debate, is all I'm saying. >> It's a core question to how we're living our lives today, especially here in the US. In terms of privacy, I think the horse has left the barn. Nobody cares about privacy if you just look at the way we live our lives. Google and Facebook have basically thrown the privacy model-- >> GPS. >> That came about because we went through World War I and World War II, and we wanted the right to be left alone and not have authoritative forces following us inside the door. But now we don't live in just a physical space, we live in a cyberspace. >> I think there's new rules. >> There is no privacy. >> Don't try and paint me into a corner here, I did maybe say some comments. Looking forward the new realities are, there are realities happening, and I think the general illuminated a lot of those today. I've been feeling that. However, I think when you you define what it means to be a patriot of the United States of America and freedom, that freedom has to be looked through the prism of the new realities. The new realities are, as the General illuminated, there are now open public domain tools for anyone to attack the United State, industry and government, he brought it up. Who do they protect, the banks? So, this ends up, I think will be a generational thing that the younger generation and others will have to figure out, but the leaders in industry will have to step up. And I think that to me is interesting. What does that look like? >> I think leadership is the whole key to this. I think there's a big thread about where the burden lies. I write about that a lot as a central theme, where is the burden? Well, each of us have a burden in this society to pay attention to our digital footprint, but it's moving and whirling so fast, and the speaker just now from US Bank said there is no such thing as unprecedented, it's all ridiculous the way things are happening. So, it has to be at the level of the leaders, a combination, and I think this is what the general was advocating, a combination of the government as we know it, as we've built it, by and for the people, and industry recognizing that if they don't do it, regulations are going to be pushed down, which is already happening here in New York. New York State Department of Financial Services now imposes rules on financial services companies to protect their data, have a CSO, check their third parties. That just went in effect in March. >> Let's unpack that, because I think that's what new. If they don't do this, they don't partner, governments and industry don't partner together, either collectively as a vertical or sector with the government, then the government will impose new mandates on them. That's kind of what you're getting at. That's what's happening. >> It'll be a push and shove. Now the push is because industry has not acted with enough urgency, and even though they were seeing them in the headlines. California's already led the way in terms of its Data Loss Disclosure law that now 47 states have, but it's a very, I mean, that's just the level the government can push, and then industry has to react to that. >> I got to say, I'm just being an observer in the industry, we do The Cube, and how many events will we hear the word digital transformation. If people think digital transformation is hard now, imagine if the government imposes all these restrictions. >> What about GDPR? >> Byron: That's a good question, yeah. >> You're trying to tell me the US government is going to be obliged to leak private information because of a socialist agenda, which GDPR has been called. >> No, that's another one of these catalysts or one of these drivers that are pushing. We're in a global society, right? >> Here's my take, I'll share my opinion on this, Dave, I brought it up earlier. What the general was pointing out is the terror states now have democratized tools that other big actors are democratizing through the public domain to allow any enemy of the United States to attack with zero consequences, because they're either anonymous. But let's just say they're not anonymous, let's just say they get caught. We can barely convert drug dealers, multiple jurisdictions in court and around the world. What court is out there that will actually solve the problem? So, the question is, if they get caught, what is the judicial process? >> Navy SEALs? >> I mean, obviously, I'm using the DEA and drug, when we've been fighting drug for multiple generations and we still have to have a process to multiple years to get that in a global court. I mean, it's hard. My point is, if we can't even figure it out for drug trade, generations of data, how fast are we going to get cyber criminals? >> Well, there is recognition of this, and there is work being done, but the gap is so large. Microsoft has done a big chunk of this in fighting botnets, right? So, they've taken a whole legal strategy that they've managed to impose in maybe a half-dozen cases the last few years, where they legally went and got legal power to shut down hosting services that were sources of these botnets. So, that's just one piece of it. >> So, this World War I analogy, let's just take it to the cloud wars. So, in a way, Dave, we asked Amazon early on, Amazon Web Services how their security was. And you questioned, maybe cloud has better security than on premise, at that time eight years ago. Oh my God, the cloud is so insecure. Now it looks like the cloud's more secure, so maybe it's a scale game. Cloud guys might actually be an answer, if you take your point to the next level. What do you think? >> Correct me if I'm wrong, you haven't seen these kind of massive Equifax-like breaches at Amazon and Google. >> That we know about. >> That we know about. >> What do you think? Don't they have to disclose? >> Cloud players have an opportunity? >> That we know about. >> That's what I was saying. The question on the table is, are the cloud guys in a better position to walk around and carry the heavy stick on cyber? >> Personally, I would say no question. There's homogeneity of the infrastructure, and standardization, and more automation. >> What do you think? What's your community think? >> I think you're right, first of all, but I think it's not the full answer. I think the full answer is what the general keeps hammering on, which is private, public, this needs to be leadership, we need to connect all these things where it makes sense to connect them, and realize that there's a bigger thing on the horizon that's already breathing down our necks, already blowing fire like a dragon at us. It's a piece of the, yeah. >> It's a community problem. The community has to solve the problem at leadership level for companies and industry, but also what the security industry has always been known for is sharing. The question is, can they get to a data sharing protocol of some sort? >> It's more than just data sharing. I mean, he talked about that, he talked about, at lunch he did, about the ISAC sharing. He said now it's more, ISACs are these informational sharing by industry, by financial industry, health industry, energy industry, they share information about they've been hacked. But he said, it's more than that. We have to get together at the table and recognize where these attacks are coming, and figure out what the smart things are doing, like at the ISP level. That's a big part of the funnel, crucial part of the funnel, is where traffic moves. That's where it needs to be done. >> What about the the balance of power in the cyber war, cyber warfare? I mean, US obviously, US military industrial complex, Russia, China, okay, we know what the balance of power is there. Is there much more of a level playing field in cyber warfare, do you think, or is it sort of mirror the size of the economy, or the sophistication of the technology? >> No, I think you're absolutely right. There is much more of a level playing field. I mean, North Korea can come in and do a, this is what we know about, or we think we know about, come in and do a WannaCry attack, develop a ransomware that actually moves on the internet of things to raise cash, right, for North Korea. So there, yeah, you're absolutely right. >> That's funding their Defense Department. >> As Robert Gates said when he was on The Cube, we have to be really careful with how much we go on the offense with cyber security, because we have more to lose than anybody with critical infrastructure, and the banking system, the electrical grid, nuclear facilities. >> I interviewed a cyber guy on The Cube in the studio from Vidder, Junaid Islam. He's like, we can look at geo and not have anyone outside the US access our grid. I mean, no one should attack our resources from outside the US, to start with. So, core network access has been a big problem. >> Here's something, I think I can share this because I think he said he wouldn't mind me sharing it. At the lunch today, to your point that we have more to lose is, the general said yeah, we have terrific offensive capability. Just like in the analog world, we have all the great bombers, more bombers than anybody else. But can we stop people from getting, we don't have the comparable level of stopping. >> The defense is weak. >> The defense, right. Same thing with cyber. He said somebody once asked him how many of your, what percentage of your offensive attacks are successful? 100%. You know, we do have, we saw some of that with leaks of the NSA's weapons that happened this year, that gone out. >> It's like Swiss cheese, the leaks are everywhere, and it's by the network itself. I ran into a guy who was running one of the big ports, I say the city to reveal who it was, but he's like, oh my God, these guys are coming in the maritime network, accessing the core internet, unvetted. Pure core access, his first job as CIO was shut down the core network, so he has to put a VPN out there and segment the network, and validate all the traffic coming through. But the predecessor had direct internet access to their core network. >> Yeah, I think the energy sector, there's a sponsor here, ICIT, that's in the industrial control space, that I think that's where a lot of attention is going to go in the next couple of years, because as we saw with these attacks of the Ukraine, getting in there and shutting down their power grid for half a day or whatever, or with our own alleged, US own involvement in something like Stuxnet where we get into the power grid in Iran, those controls are over here with a separate legacy. Once you get in, it's really easy to move around. I think that needs to be all cleaned up and locked down. >> They're already in there, the malware's sitting in there, it's idle. >> We're already over there probably, I don't know, but that's what I would guess and hope. >> I don't believe anything I read these days, except your stuff, of course, and ours. Being a journalist, what are you working on right now? Obviously you're out there reporting, what are the top things you're looking at that you're observing? What's your observation space relative to what you're feeding into your reports? >> This topic, security, I'm going to retire and be long gone on this. This is a terrific topic that means so much and connects to everything. >> A lot of runway on this topic, right? >> I think the whole area of what, right there, your mobile device and how it plugs into the cloud, and then what that portends for internet of things. We have this whole 10-year history of the laptops, and we're not even solving that, and the servers are now moving here to these mobile devices in the clouds and IOT. It's just, attack surface area is just, continues to get bigger. >> And the IT cameras. >> The other thing I noticed on AETNA's presentation this morning on the keynote, Jim was he said, a lot of times many people chase the wrong attack vector, because of not sharing, literally waste cycle times on innovation. So, it's just interesting market. Okay, final thoughts, Byron. This event, what's the significance of this event? Obviously there's Black Hat out there and other industry events. What is so significant about CyberConnect from your perspective? Obviously, our view is it's an industry conversation, it's up-leveled a bit. It's not competing with other events. Do you see it the same way? What is your perspective on this event? >> I think that it's properly named, Connect, and I think that is right at the center of all this, when you have people like Jim Ralph from AETNA, which is doing these fantastic things in terms of protecting their network and sharing that freely, and the US Bank guy that was just on, and Verizon is talking later today. They've been in this space a long time sharing terrific intelligence, and then somebody like the general, and Tom Kemp, the CEO of Centrify, talking about giving visibility to that, a real key piece that's not necessarily sexy, but by locking that down, that's accessing. >> How is the Centrify message being received in the DC circles? Obviously they're an enterprise, they're doing very well. I don't know their net revenue numbers because they're private, they don't really report those. Are they well-received in the DC and the cyber communities in terms of what they do? Identity obviously is a key piece of the kingdom, but it used to be kind of a fenced off area in enterprise software model. They seem to have more relevance now. Is that translating for them in the marketplace? >> I would think so, I mean, the company's growing. I was just talking to somebody. The story they have to tell is substantive and really simple. There's some smart people over there, and I think there are friendly ears out there to hear what they have to say. >> Yeah, anything with identity, know your customer's a big term, and you hear in blockchain and anti-money laundering, know your customer, big term, you're seeing more of that now. Certainly seeing Facebook, Twitter, and Alphabet in front of the Senate getting peppered, I thought that was interesting. We followed those guys pretty deeply. They got hammered, like what's going on, how could you let this happen? Not that it was national security, but it was a major FUD campaign going on on those platforms. That's data, right, so it wasn't necessarily hacked, per se. Great stuff, Byron, thanks for joining us here on The Cube, appreciate it. And your website is lastwatchdog.com. >> Yes. >> Okay, lastwatchdog.com. Byron Acohido here inside The Cube. I'm John Furrier, Dave Vellante, we'll be back with more live coverage after this short break.

>> Announcer: Live from Washington, DC it's theCUBE. Covering .conf2017. Brought to you by Splunk. >> Welcome back here on theCUBE continuing our coverage of .conf2017 sponsored by Get Together in your nations capitol, we are live here at the Walter Washington Convention Center in Washington, DC. Along with Dave Vellante I'm John Walls Joined now by a couple CUBE alums, actually, you guys were here about a year ago. Yeah, Robert Herjavec, with the Herjavec Group of course you all know him from Shark Tank fame answer Atif Ghauri who is the VP of Customer Service Success at the Herjavec Group. I love that title, Atif we're going to get into that in just a little bit. Welcome. >> Thank you. >> Good to see you all. >> We're more like CUBE groupies We're more like CUBE groupies. >> Alums. >> Alums, okay, yeah. >> If we had a promo reel. >> Yeah, we love it here. We get free mugs with the beautiful Splunk. >> That doesn't happen all the time does it. >> Where did you get those? >> They're everywhere. >> Dave, I'll share. >> So again for folks who don't, what brings you here what, what's the focus here for the Herjavec Group in in terms of what you're seeing in the Splunk community and I assume it's very security driven. >> Yeah, well we've been part of the Splunk community for many years going on gosh, eight, nine years. We're Splunkers and we use Splunk as our core technology to provide our managed service and we manage a lot of customer environments with Splunk and we've been really forefront of Splunk as a SIM technology for a long time. >> Atif, excuse me, David, just the title, VP of Customer Service Success, what's under that umbrella? >> Yeah, it's actually pretty simple and straightforward given especially that Splunk's aligned the same way. Christmas success is King, right. If our customers aren't successful then how are we successful? So what we're trying to do there is putting the customer first and help in growing accounts and growing our services starting with our customers that we have today. >> It was actually Doug Maris, I have to give him full credit him and I were on a flight, and I said to him what's really critical to you growing revenue, efficiency, innovation and he said, number one for us is customer success. So we're very happy to steal other people's ideas if they're better. >> So security's changing so fast. You mentioned SIM, Splunk's narrative is that things are shifting from a traditional SIM world to one of an analytic driven remediation world. I wonder if you could talk about what you're seeing in the customer base, are people actually shifting their spending and how fast and where do you see it all going? >> Yeah, so the days of chasing IOC's is a dead end. Because that's just a nonstop effort. What's really happening now is technique detection. Defining, looking at how hackers are doing their trade craft and then parroting that. So Splunk has ideas and other vendors have ideas on how to go about trying to detect pattern recognition of attacker trade craft. And so what definitely was driving what's next when it comes to security automation, security detection, for our customers today. >> You know, we always tell people and it's just dead on but the challenge is people want to buy the, sexy, exciting thing and why I always try to say to customers is you're a dad and you have three kids, and you have a minivan. You don't really want to own a minivan, you want a really nice Ferrari or Corvette but at the end of the day, you have three kids and you got to get to the store. And in the security world it's a little bit like that. People talk about artificial intelligence and better threat metrics and analytics but the core, foundational basis still is logs. You have to manage your log infrastructure. And the beauty of Splunk is, it does it better than anyone and gives you an upstream in fact to be able to do the analytics and all those other things. But you still got to do the foundation. You still got to get three kids into the minivan and bring back groceries. >> So there's been a lot of focus, obviously security's become a Board level topic. You hear that all the time, you used to not hear it all the time, used to be IT problem. >> Absolutely, the only way I could get a meeting with the CEO or CIO was because I was on Shark Tank. But as a security guy, I would never meet any executives. Oh yeah I spend 80% of my time meeting with CEO, not just CIO's, but CEO's and Boards and that kind of stuff, absolutely. >> How should the CIO be communicating the Board about security, how often, what should be the narrative you know, transparency, I wonder if you could give us your thoughts. >> It's a great question. There's a new financial regulation that's coming out where CISO's and CIO's actually have to sign off on financial statements related to cyber security. And there's a clause in there that says if they knowingly are negligent, it carries criminal charges. So the regulations coming into cyber security are very similar to what we're seeing and Sarbanes Oxley like if a CEO signs an audit statement that he suspects might have some level of negligence to it I'm not talking about outright criminal fraud but just some level of negligence, it carries a criminal offense. If you look at the latest Equifax breach, a lot of the media around it was that there should be criminal charges around it. And so as soon as as you use words like criminal, compliance, audit, CEO's, executives really care. So the message from the CIO has to be we're doing everything in our power, based on industry standards, to be as secure as we can number one. And number two we have the systems in place that if we are breached, we can detect it as quickly as possible. >> So I was watching CNBC the other day and what you don't want to see as a Board member, every Board members picture from Equifax up there, with the term breach. >> Is that true? >> Yeah, yeah. >> See, but, isn't that different. Like you never, like if we think back on all the big breaches, Target and Sony they were all seminal in their own way. Target was seminal because the CEO got fired. And that was the first time it happened. I think we're going to remember Equifax, I didn't know that about the Board. >> For 50 seconds it was up there. I the sound off. >> You don't want to be a Board member. >> I mean, I hate to say it, but it's got to be great for your business, first of all it's another reason not to be a public company is one more hurdle. But if you are they need help. >> They absolutely need help. And on point I don't want to lose is that what we're seeing with CISO's, Chief Information Security Officers, Is that that role's transcending, that role is actually reporting directly to in to CEO's now. Directly into CFO's now, away from the CIO, because there's some organizational dynamics that keep the CISO from telling, what's really going on. >> Fox in henhouse. >> Exactly. >> You want to separate those roles. You're you're seeing that more often. What percent of the CISO's and CIO's are separate in your experience? >> Organizations that have a mature security program. That have evolved to where it's really a risk-based decision, and then the security function becomes more like risk management, right. Just what you they've been doing for decades. But now you have a choice security person leading that charge. >> So what we really always saying theCUBE, it's not a matter of if, it's when you're going to get infiltrated. Do you feel as though that the Boards and CIO's are transparent about that? Do Boards understand that that it's really the remediation and the response that's most important now, or there's still some education that has to go on there? >> You know, Robert speaks to Boards are the time he can comment on that, but they really want to know two things, how bad is it and how much money do you need. And those are the key questions that's driving from a Board perspective what's going to happen next. >> What's worse that Equifax got breached or that Equifax was breached for months and didn't know about it. I mean, as a Board member the latter is much worse. There's an acceptance like I have a beautiful house and I have big windows a lots of alarms and a dog, not a big dog, but still, I have a dog. >> A yipper. >> Yeah, I have a yipper. It's worse to me if somebody broke into my house, was there for a while and my wife came home at night and the person was still there. That to me is fundamentally worse than getting an alarm and saying, somebody broke the window, went in, stole a picture frame. You're going to get breached, it's how quickly you respond and what the assets are. >> And is it all shapes and sizes, too I mean, we talk about big companies here you've mentioned three but is it the mid-level guys and do smaller companies have the same concerns or same threats and risks right now? >> See these are the you heard about. What about all the breaches you don't know. >> That's the point, how big of a problem are we talking about? >> It's a wide scaling problem right and to the previous question, the value now in 2017, is what is the quality of your intelligence? Like what actions can I take, with the software that you're giving me, or with the service that you're giving me because you could detect all day but what are you going to do about it? And you're going to be held accountable for that. >> I'm watching the service now screen over here and I've seen them flash the stat 191 days to detect an infiltration. >> That sounds optimistic to me. I think most people would be happy with that if they could guarantee that. >> I would think the number's 250 to 300 so that now maybe they're claiming they can squeeze that down but, are you seeing any compression in that number? I mean it's early days I know. >> I think that the industry continues to be extremely complicated. There's a lot of vendors, there's a lot of products. The average Fortune 500 company has 72 security products. There's a stat that RSA this year that there's 1500 new security start ups every year. Every single year. How are they going to survive? And which ones do you have to buy because they're critical and provide valuable insights. And which ones are going to be around for a year or two and you're never going to hear about again. So it's a extremely challenging complex environment. >> From the bad guys are so much more sophisticated going from hacktivists to whatever State sponsored or criminal. >> That's the bottom line, I mean the bad guys are better, the bad guys are winning. The white hats fought their way out to the black hats, right. The white hats are trying, trying hard, we're trying to get organized, we're trying to win battles but the war is clearly won by the by the black hats. And that's something that as an industry we're getting better at working towards. >> Robert, as an investor what's your sentiment around valuations right now and do you feel as though. >> Not high enough. >> Oh boy. >> Managed security companies should be trading way higher value. >> Do you feel like they're somewhat insulated? >> Its a really good question, we're in that space you know we're we're about a $200 million private company. We're the largest privately held, managed security company in the world actually. And so I always think every time we're worth more I think wow, we couldn't be worth more, the market can't get bigger. Because your values always based for potential size. Nobody values you for what you're worth today. Because an investor doesn't buy history an investor doesn't buy present state, an investor buys future state. So if the valuations are increasing, it's a direct correlation because the macro factors are getting bigger. And so the answer to your question is values are going to go up because the market is just going to be fundamentally bigger. Is everybody going to survive? No, but I think you're going to see valuations continue to increase. >> Well in digital business everybody talks about digital business. We look at digital business as how well you leverage data. We think the value of data is going through the roof but I'm not sure customers understand the intrinsic value of the data or have a method to actually value their data. If they did, we feel like they would find it's way more valuable and they need to protect it better. What are you seeing in that regard with customers? >> There's an explosion of data in that with IoT, internet of things, and the amount of additional data that's come now. But, to your point, how do you sequence and label data? That's been a multi-decade old question more organizations struggle with. Many have gone to say that, it's all important so let's protect it all, right. And verses having layers of approach. So, it's a challenging problem, I don't think across all our customer base. That's something that each wrestling with to try to solve individually for their companies. >> Well, I think you also have the reality though of money. So, it's easy to say all the data is important, Structured unstructured, but you look at a lot of the software and tools that you need around this floor are sold to you on a per user or per ingestion model. So, even though all your data is critical. You can't protect all your data. It's like your house, you can't protect every single component of it, you try, and every year gets better maybe get a better alarm maybe I'll get rid the yappy dog and get a Doberman you know you're constantly upgrading. But you can't protect everything, because reality is you still live in an unstructured, unsafe world. >> So is that the complexity then, because the a simple question is why does it take so long to find out if there's something wrong with your house? >> I think it's highly complex because we're dealing with people who are manipulating what we know to their benefit in ways we've never done it. The Wannacry breach was done in a way that had not been done before. If it had done before we could have created some analytics around it, we could created some, you know, metrics around it but these are attacks that are happening in a way we've never seen before and so it's this element of risk and data and then you always have human nature. Gary Moore was that the Council this morning. The writer of Crossing the Chasm, legendary book, and he said something very interesting which was Why do people always get on a flight and say, good luck with the flight, hope you fly safe. But they don't think twice about hopping in their car and driving to the grocery store. Whereas statistically, your odds of dying in that car are fundamentally greater, and it's human nature, it's how we perceive risk. So it's the same with security and data in cyber security. >> As security experts I'm curious and we're here in DC, how much time you think about and what your thoughts might be in the geopolitical implications of security, cyber war, you know it's Stuxnet, fast forward, whatever, ten years. What are you thoughts as security practitioners in that regard? >> The longest and most heated battles in the next World War, will not be on Earth, they'll be in cyberspace. It's accepted as a given. That's the way this Country is moving. That's the way our financial systems are tied together and that's the way we're moving forward. >> It's interesting we had Robert Gates on last year and he was saying you know we have to be really careful because while we have the United States has the best security technologies, we also have the most to lose with our infrastructure and it's a whole new you know gamification or game theory balance we have to play. >> I would agree with him that we have some of the best security technology in the world but I would say that our barometer and our limiter is the freedom of our society. By nature what we love about our country and Canada is that we love freedom. And we love giving people access to information and data and free speech. By nature we have countries that may not have as good a security, but have the ability to limit access to outsiders, and I'm not saying that's good by any means but it does make security a little bit easier from that perspective. Whereas in our system, we're never going to go to that, we shouldn't go to that. So now we have to have better security just to stay even. >> To Dave's point talking about the geopolitical pressures, the regulatory environment being what it is, you know legislators, if they smell blood right, it in terms of compliance and what have you, what are you seeing in terms of that shift focus from the Hill. >> Great question. I did a speech to about two thousand CIO's, CISO's not long ago and I said, how many people in this room buy security to be more secure and how many people buy because you have to be compliant. 50/50, even the security ones admitted that how they got budget was leveraging the compliance guys. It was easier to walk into CEO's office and say look, we have to buy this to meet some kind of a political, compliance, Board issue. Than it was to say this will make us better. Better is a hard sell. So that, has to go to the head to pull the trigger to do some of that. >> You know, I think in this geopolitical environment it's look at the elections, look at all the rhetoric. It's just there is going to be more of that stuff. >> A lot's changed in crypto and its potential applications in security. More money poured into ICO's in the first half than venture backed crypto opportunities. >> There are practical applications of blockchain technology all across the board, right, but as you mentioned is fundamentally built on pathology. On core gut security work and making a community of people decide whether something's authentic or not. It's a game changer, as far what what we could do from a platform standpoint to secure our financial systems and short answer it's volatile. As you saw with the fluctuation of Bitcoin and then the currency of Bitcoin, how it's gone up and down. It's quite volatile right now because there's a lot of risk So I say what's the next Bitcoin in six months or eighteen months and what's going to happen to the old Bitcoin and then all the money that into there, where is that going to go? So that's a discuss the pivot point I think for the financial services industry and more and more their larger institutions are just trying to get involved with that whole network of blockchain. >> Crypto currencies really interesting. In some ways it's the fuel that's funding the cyber security ransomeware. I mean it's one of the easiest ways to send money and be completely anonymous. If you didn't have crypto currency, how would you pay for ransomware? You give them your checking account? You deposit into their checking account? So, I think that you're seeing a big surge of it but if you look at the history of money or even checks, checks were developed by company called Deluxe here in the United States 104 years ago. They're a customer of ours, that's why I know this, but the basis of it is that somebody, a real institution with bricks and mortar and people in suits is backing that check, or that currency. Who's backing crypto currency today? So you have, by nature, you have this element of volatility and I don't know if it's going to make it or it's not going to make it. But inevitably has to cross from a purely electronic crypto form to some element of a note or a tender that I can take from that world and get backing on it. >> That's kind of what Warren Buffet has said about it. I mean I would respond that it's the community, whatever that means, that's backing it. I mean, what backs the greenback, it's the US Government and the US military. It's an interesting. >> Right like, at the end of the day I would still rather take a US dollar than even a Canadian dollar or a UK dollar. >> Gentlemen thanks for being with us. >> Great to see you. >> Thank you for the coffee mug. >> This is incredible. >> There's actually stuff in it too so be careful. >> I drank it is that okay? >> Can I go to the hospital. >> Atif, thanks for the time and Robert good luck with that new dog. (all laughing) >> Don't tell my wife I got rid of her dog. >> In time. >> In time. All things a time, theCUBE continues live here Washington DC at .conf2017 right after this.