(upbeat music) >> Hi everybody, this is Dave Vellante. And welcome to this CUBE conversation where we welcome an ESG senior analyst, Bob Laliberte Bob, good to see you. >> Great to see you too. Thanks for having me >> Love it, I love to have the analyst sessions. Set it up. What's your scope, what's your area of expertise? >> So my coverage area right now is networking in its entirety. So that spans everything from enterprise networking, wired, wireless, campus, data center, et cetera. All the way up through telco and, in cloud networking. >> So how do you look at the landscape? One of the big things I think about a lot is how does the shift to cloud migration? How does that affect the existing, network layers? I mean, you got Cisco as the big whale and it's just, it's amazing to me. They still have whatever percent market share they have 60, 65% of the market. Are things, what's happening in the competitive landscape. How is cloud affecting that? >> That's a great question. I think the interesting piece is so many times organizations think about the network as plumbing. But the reality is the it's really important plumbing because as you talk about cloud and things get more distributed, well, guess what connects those distributed locations? It's the network. And so organizations as they've moved to the cloud you've seen a big shift with things like SD-WAN and so forth. How do I get more efficient connectivity up to that cloud? How do I not only enable able better connectivity between my data centers in the cloud, but now all my remote workers in the cloud. And so there's been a lot of big shifts going on that have driven the importance of having not only network, but secure networks. So like I said, cloud is one thing, and you're moving your applications there. But with the pandemic you saw the remote work. Think about the network administrators who we're managing, hey, I've got to control network connections between my data centers, a couple clouds and maybe dozens maybe a hundred remote branches. And now I'm connecting to 10,000 micro branches that I need to ensure that they can connect up to these applications and so forth. Hell of a lot more complex environment today than it used to be for these network teams. When we look at the, what we're seeing, how the networking providers are responding it's by driving comprehensive end-to-end solutions. So unifying, wired, wireless, and WAN. Driving efficiencies there. You're seeing even ThousandEyes for Cisco and things like that. Because they know the Internet's becoming more integral part of the corporate network. So being able to drive those types of things being able to, I think look at how to drive those operational efficiencies through AI and ML. So one of the big shifts we've seen in networking is the transition to cloud-based network management. And obviously that couple of things that helps with, first of all, the operations teams who are working remotely can more easily access it. But once all that data is up in the cloud, it creates a platform to be able to invest in AI/ML, and be able to drive intelligent alerting and even automation. And that's really what's needed because as the environments get more distributed and complex, you need to have that those operational efficiencies that automation, that intelligence to help them. >> How has remote work and hybrid work affected sort of network, spending priorities. Obviously when the pandemic hit you had to accommodate end points. And I always have this theory okay, when people come back to the office and I know it's going to be a different world but, the HQ probably needs some love as well. So has that been a tailwind for the industry? >> Absolutely, that's what we're seeing now. I think when the pandemic first hit, everyone said I've got to ramp up my VPNs. I've got to scale out my concentrators. I've got to add more firewalls in my data center. And then after a while, when they realized this was here to stay, they said, okay we just created that hub-and-spoke network that we just got rid of with SD-WAN. So what are the better solutions we can implement? So now you're seeing them not only implement better networking solutions for the remote workers. But reimagining what the campus looks like. Because it's not going to be ever 100% full or maybe it will, but how, for how many times a year will it be 100% full? So you've got to go from 80% cubes and 20% conference and collaboration areas, to 80% collaboration areas and 20% cubes. So we're seeing a lot of transition taking place in the campus environment as organizations are deploying newer technologies like Wi-Fi 6E. That have greater bandwidth to allow for those collaboration apps to run in those collaboration areas. Instead of just having the single wired conference room for video. Everyone's got to be able to run their video, voice and video collaboration apps. >> So how do you look at the landscape now? Again, you can't talk about networking without talking about Cisco. I think they, up there, I saw you and Zeus as talking about out, Cisco's quarter and other networking topics. Their long term guidance is for 60% growth for a company that size that's really outstanding. I mean, Cisco's, really has always been an execution machine of course. And it's a new era now under Chuck. There are more than ankle biters. If you look at Arista's doing pretty well there's guys like Extreme, there's others that are out there but nobody seemed to be able to unseat Cisco. What's happening in the landscape? >> I mean, that's a great question. Cisco's just been around for so long and been so big for so long. And you have to also keep in mind that with Cisco it's not just about the technology, but the fact from a if you think about it from a cultural standpoint these are workers who have been trained on Cisco since, some of them since high school. The educational component that Cisco has done has groomed generations of network technologists. So when they come into the market, they're fully familiar and used to Cisco. Plus they make a really good product and they've got products that cover everything. They cover the whole gambit. So they're still able to maintain their share. They're able to grow. They're able to move. They've made a shift last year. They announced in last spring that they were going to focus more on end-to-end. So instead of just having, hey, here's a point product, here's a point product. Here's a point product. Let's think about it in its entirety. Let's deliver a complete end-to-end solution solve bigger problems for customers, which obviously makes it much harder to remove when you're just trying to remove a piece of that single problem. But the other competitors are also having good years. And I think also the rising tide floats all boats. And so because of this distributed nature, the importance of the network, everyone is doing that. Plus obviously this has to be said, the supply chain issues where people are ordering ahead as well. But organizations, you look at Arista, they've gone from just being a data center company to expanding all the way down to the campus edge, wireless, right there creating an end-to-end environment Extreme did the same thing. They went out and made a lot of acquisitions. They pulled them all together, integrated. They're all moving to this cloud based end-to-end network management. Arista has been on a tear, bringing in a lot of, not only innovative technology, but innovative technologists. So if you look at some of the organizations they bought. I keep calling it Route 128, it's 128 Technologies. So sorry folks I live in Massachusetts. It's always been Route 128. >> You Remember when don't we. 128 Technology's Mist was their big. Mist was their, Mist was kind of like their VMware. VMware to EMC was Mist was to Juniper. And so we call it the Mistification of Juniper where every organization, every company they bring in they're rolling under that and this the AI engine. So they're bringing in 128 Technologies into that. They've got their own, their own stuff under that, their wired switches. So they've got this unified wired and wireless and WAN assurance now that they have. They've been gaining a lot of traction with that. And again, for the things we were talking about because it's far more distributed and complex. You need to have, It's not like people are getting replaced. It's not like, hey, we're leveraging this automation so that we can get rid of network teams. It's because it's getting so much more complex just to have the same number of people manage that more complex environment. We need those intelligence solutions. >> So I want to ask you about network and multi-cloud. And so it's kind of tongue in cheek because we coined this term super cloud. And so what we meant by that, so here's the premise. And I wonder you could give us your perspective. Multi-cloud, I've said many times is I think largely a symptom of multi-vendor I run in this, I run in AWS or, Azure, I've done the work to understand their primitives and or Google, whatever it is. But it's not like an abstraction layer that's floating above all those but now you're starting to see that. In fact, it re:Invent in November. The ecosystem it seemed like was everybody was focused on developing what we call these super clouds. And again, it's tongue in cheek, this abstraction layer it hides the underlying complexity of the primitives and the APIs adds incremental value on top of that. So there's a company Prosimo, which Steve Herrod, is invested in and others Praveen Akkiraju, whom I'm sure you know from Viptela. Aviatrix is another company that's sort of, Steve Malaney has come on theCUBE and talked about what they're doing. Like yeah, that's super cloud. It seems like it's something new and different than just multi-cloud which is kind of connecting in to different clouds. It's that value on top. What do you think about that? And what does that mean for networking? >> That's a really good point because we are starting to see the inception of organizations going beyond having multiple cloud providers and looking at starting to deploy applications across multiple clouds. It's still really early. The vast majority of organizations are still, I use this application for this cloud and this application for that cloud. But that's the next frontier. That's what they're trying to solve is how do I create this basically cloud fabric and make it as simple as possible. And again, all the things we've been talking about how do I, instead of you having to learn Amazon, Google, Azure networking technology, learn mine, I'll take care of it, but I'll abstract all that complexity from you and make it so much simpler to be able to connect to these interconnect, and connect to them in a seamless fashion. And so that's what they're really trying to do is they're. And the hard part is it takes really sophisticated solutions to remove that high level of complexity and make it simple for an organization to do that. So yeah, absolutely. >> If I had more time I'd make it shorter as somebody who writes a lot. And I think you're right. I think it is future. It's not definitely not here today, but the other thing is it ties into digital transformation. We used this again, throw that buzzword around but, companies not just tech company, I mean everybody's becoming like a tech company, but organizations, financial services companies, healthcare they're building their own clouds on top of the hyperscalers who spend $100 billion a year on CapEx. And that seems to be a trend that I think is going to take legs over this next decade. Just like in the previous decade everybody was thinking, okay, we're going to SaaSify our business softwares (indistinct) the world. And now it's software and cloud services are the way in which I'm going to create customer experiences. >> Correct, yeah. It's why should I go out and make an investment in technology when the technology's already there? And I can rent it for when I need it scale it as I need it and, and do all of that. I agree with that. I think that's something that we're seeing. The interesting part though is that when we look at our data points, probably let than 40% of the applications and workloads are in the cloud today. So there's still a role that the corporate data center plays. We are seeing over time. They expect that to progress and transition but I think there's still always going to be maybe a quarter of the workloads and applications may never leave. Depending on how they're built, et cetera. So there's always going to be that distributed environment where you've got workloads in the private data centers, workloads in multiple public clouds. And also, the big thing too is don't forget about the edge. We're seeing a lot more edge activity take place as organizations recognize, as they deploy more IOT devices, and want to get realtime business insights they've got to deploy the compute there. >> Well, and that's something that I wanted to ask you about, but going back to what you just said, which is, I agree with you. So that suggests to me, Bob that we're just kind of, with cloud just entering the steep part of the S curve. Amazon's headed toward $100 billion, run rate business. Maybe they probably won't get there this year but they will next year. We're entering that steep growth phase, really could be. It's incredible. But I wanted to ask you about the edge. Because you're right is we got to move compute to the edge, ARM is going to dominate. I would think, the edge. They already are with our smartphones. How do you see the cloud guys participating in the edge? Whether it was Andy Jassy, or now Adam Selipsky or anybody at Amazon. They have the dogma of in the fullness of time all workloads are going to be in the cloud. So they either have to change their definition of cloud. Or they're wrong. So what's your thought on that? >> I think it really starts coming down to what's your definition of edge. And so, much like when the cloud technologies first came about and you had all the shadow IT. Everyone running off, and everyone thought oh this is all great, until you realized you had to operationalize it and you had to pull the brakes. Stop doing that. We're going to make sure IT operations. >> Call the CIO up. Exactly, finding out where stuff was by going through accounting and seeing credit card charges. For the edge what we've seen I think is maybe organizations really saying I've got to deploy my servers in my own site. Right at that edge in order to get the lowest possible latency. And so what I think we're starting to see is organizations looking at that and saying, okay well I'm in a metro and I've got 25 locations in a metro. And I've deployed technology to every single one of those sites. Do I need it there? Or can I put it in an Equinix facility that's less than five milliseconds from all 25 sites? So I think there's starting to be this pragmatic approach of looking at let's look at the edge, let's take a look at what type of latencies. What is our definition of real time. When do we actually need the data and so forth? What kind of connectivity do we have? And then from there figure out how we go about connecting it. And so for companies like AWS and Google and Azure a lot of them there's local zones and things like that. They're deploying them in those colos because they don't have data centers in every metro but they can leverage an Equinix. They can leverage someone else's hardware that's there to deploy their software stack within that location. So I think that's something that we're starting to see more and more of as the edge. And obviously the association with the telcos as well. They've got a great footprint. If you want to get close to the edge with their colos Their home offices and things like that and whatnot. Their ability to move the compute closer to the edge, the base stations of the antennas and things like that, are certainly significant. And that's why you're seeing the wavelengths and things like that, programs like that. >> So I was going to close, but there some really interesting topics you just brought up. Call it whatever you going to call it near edge, far edge or deep edge. And you mentioned real time. Yeah. So for those Equinix data centers, I don't need, true real time. But for Tesla, I need real time. I need real time inference at the edge probably using a bunch of ARM cores and I can't go back to any cloud. How do you look at that? Both, I would think big markets. Do you have a sense as to, is one bigger than the other? Are they both just enormous or we don't even know yet. >> I'm not sure that we know yet. I think certainly, it's riding the tail of the IOTs. So the more sensors, the more things that are deployed the more that, that data businesses realize they can leverage that data to make real time business insights to drive either better experiences. And if you're in retail. So location based services and real time offer management it doesn't do any good to offer a coupon for something that you've, that's 40 yards behind you. That that's past, like you said with the cars there's, I've seen some studies recently. They say, well, based on the latency, if the command is to stop and you're at one millisecond, it stops within four inches. If you are at 50 milliseconds, it stops 10 feet later. That's a big difference. And I don't know if those numbers are right but you get the idea about the impact, what the real time impact is of. >> Margin is not huge. >> Exactly, so that's where organizations, I think first and foremost need to take a pragmatic approach to determine what is real time for us. What's our definition of it. And then that can lead them to where do I need to place this compute technology? And then that goes to how do I then connect to it? So for the Teslas and so forth, obviously you're going to want 5G connections if possible. Ultra low latency and not just any 5G. The good stuff, the millimeter bandwidth stuff that that's the ultra low latency. >> So let's wrap. So, what's going on in your research world obviously the big, big acquisition tech target they seem to be investing in ESG. You guys are really growing and hiring. That's awesome. Any research that you're working on? >> Yeah, there's a couple of couple of projects we have going on right now. We're wrapping up a four part distributed cloud research series. So we did it on distributed cloud infrastructure. Applications, observability. And now this last one is on the edge. Coincidentally. So we're working on that. We've got some new network modernization research that we've published. And we're going to be looking, from a networking perspective looking at end-to-end network modernization which will be coming out soon. >> Awesome, Bob, thanks so much for coming on theCUBE. I really would love to have you back and chat about some of those things. Observability hot space. God, I wish we had more time. >> Absolutely, appreciate it, thanks. >> And thank you for watching this CUBE conversation. This is Dave Vellante and we'll see you next time. (upbeat music)

>>From around the globe. It's the cube with digital coverage of AWS reinvent 2020 sponsored by Intel, AWS, and our community partners. >>Hello, everyone. Welcome back to the cubes. Virtual coverage of AWS reinvent 2020 it's virtual this year because of the pandemic. We're not there in person and in real life, we're remote. I'm John for a year hosting the cube or the cube virtual. Um, as we continue to cover the three weeks of AWS reinvent and analyze the keynotes, we bring it in, uh, from our Cuban alumni, uh, network experts. And we have here great guest, Steve Malaney, CEO of Ava Trex, industry executive legend, former entrepreneur had done startups, um, been very, very successful with luminary and Silicon Valley, um, Palo Alto networks and the Sierra Cisco, I me, all the companies you've worked for. Um, Steve, great to see you again. >>Oh yeah. Hey awesome. Even if it's just virtual, John's great to be back in the cube. >>Okay, Steve, what's up? Am I muted? I got you. Okay. >>Gotcha. Oh, okay. I just said it's great. They're great to be back in the cube. >>I had to shut up my volume, got to love live cube TV. Um, I wanted to bring you on, because one, we've been talking with you guys and your company that you're now heading. You came off the board to take the helm of Ava tricks. You really saw the vision early on before the pandemic. We were actually, we did a hybrid event with you guys, a digital hybrid and your vision of multi-cloud and hybrid was pretty much in line with what Andy Jassy. And Amazon's now rolling out, except they're not calling it. Multi-cloud, they're just saying hybrid. But when you factor in the edge, the complexity there, you're really talking multiple environments. So I want to get your take, as you look at what Amazon has done in their announcements, they're continuing to power long. What's your analysis. What's your industry take? >>Yeah, I, I think it's, uh, you know, I think it's great. I think, you know, when we were a year ago, it was just a little over a year ago, we were at a multi-cloud conference and I think people kind of thought, wow, is multicloud something that the vendors are wanting to happen because they don't want to be killed by AWS. And you know, I mean, I saw this two years ago, I call it the Cambridge and explosion to cloud where every enterprise to we are now going to move to cloud. And they had been talking about it for six or seven years, but they didn't really mean it. And two years ago I saw they meant it and I knew what was going to happen. It was going to go multi-cloud they we're going to care about day two operations, visibility, control, security, all the things that enterprises care about. And I think, um, you know, what we've seen really over the last year is AWS and all the other cloud providers recognizing this, that the world is going multicloud. Um, and day two operations matter. You've gotta be able to operationalize this and enterprises. Can't just, it's not just about wiring it and building it up. You got do, you can operate it. And so that's, I think the thing that's really interesting is the maturity of the messaging. I would say from AWS to recognize, um, where enterprises are in their journey. >>You know, Steve, I want to just reflect on something. When I was 19 years old in my first job, uh, in New York, it was on a prime mini computer, my first exposure to the enterprise office and then went and worked for IBM and HP and others. I've been in the, around the enterprise. Let me just go back 10 years in Silicon Valley, you could literally count on one or two hands. The number of enterprise experts out there that you knew of that were out circulating that weren't retired. Um, because it went through this kind of commodity stage of outsource everything kind of down to the bone, you know, just keeping the lights on there. Wasn't really a lot of innovation in the enterprise. Now it's the hottest thing in the world. And you, and you look at what's happening with cloud. They're redefining the enterprise in Andy Jassy said to me, and I'm going to interview him, uh, later this week. And you know, he said, we're done with eyes and pads. We checked that's anything. I say anyone, but he's kind of implying that we did. I, as in pass, we're targeting global it. >>Yeah. Well, you know, >>Now enterprise is super hot and you know, it's, it's a whole nother ball game to restructuring on G >>Yeah, I mean, so I, uh, the AWS is marketing slogan, Mark. My words I'll bet you a hundred bucks within the next year is going to change. They are not going to say go build anymore. Right? Because that's what they're going to say. Go consume because no enterprise wants to build and Oh, by the way, here's the other thing that they're now also figuring out. Cause I know Andy Jassy analysis, there's a skills shortage of cloud, so they don't have the skills at the aptitude, but there's also a people shortage. It's not just the skills, it's the amount of people. They don't have the ability to go deploy this. And they're going to, you're going to need solutions like ABA tricks, abstract the way a lot of the complexities of the underlying clouds and deliver this architecture for people to be able to actually deploy. >>Where is the skill gaps in your opinion, where do you see them? >>You know, I was just talking to a customer yesterday and he said most of my, most of my team are CLI jockeys. And so for networking, that means the CLI the command line interface that a human manipulates to control the Cisco router. That's the old operational model. The model of this, these days are Terraform. You're going to infrastructure is code everything. You need scriptures. You need, you need developers that are going to be driving your infrastructure. And, and, but I can't, I can't fire all these people that I've had in my enterprise for the last 30 years. I got to bring them along. I got to bring them along and the tools and the platforms to be able to go, to go do that. >>Andy's argument and Amazon's position is we eliminate the undifferentiated heavy lifting and we have all this training and content to bring everyone along. Okay. By that. >>Well, I mean, here's, here's the thing that I think AWS and all the, all the cloud providers are figuring out is the enterprise is a different beast. You know, when you go to a company as AWS and say, Hey, you can get it as long as it's any color you want, as long as it's black. And so guess what, I'm a service. And the beautiful thing is you don't need to know anything about how we do anything and just trust me, it's all going to work that does not go over well with an enterprise because they say, I'm the guy that needs to know I will get fired. If this infrastructure goes down, you know, you saw us East one go down two weeks ago, Google had a outage to two days ago or whatever it was, shit happens. I don't know if I can say that on the cube. >>We're not going to actually see regulated at this point, but who's going to know. >>Um, and you know what? I've got to have that visibility in controls and enterprise, and I need the granular controls and the visibility to troubleshoot and the security controls and the performance controls that I used to have on prem, because I'm a regulated enterprise. I need that visibility and control. And the cloud providers just say, look, I deliver a service and I deliver it to everybody. And it's the same service. And you don't need to know that does not fly with the >>Well, certainly you're seeing more regulated industries. It used to be just public sector. I just talked with Teresa Carlson. She now took over all the industries. So FinTech is regulated. Energy is regulated. Telecom's regulated. The only thing that's not regulated is a VC and startup sectors, right? So there's a >>Well, and, and, and every, every good CIO of an enterprise knows nothing good comes from your, from your infrastructure that gets outsourced. We tried that it doesn't work. Now, maybe in 20 years, I can outsource my infrastructure if I'm the CIO of a major enterprise corporation. But right now I am not outsourcing that I have to have control. Now, am I going to leverage services and basic infrastructure from the cloud providers? Absolutely. I'm not going to build it on my own data centers. That world is over, but what I'm going to maintain is the visibility and control. >>Yeah. And that's what we heard from Verner. Vogel's around observability systems, thinking control versus observability, um, evolvable systems, things like reasoning, um, you know, these are, these are innovations, right? So, so let's get back to that builders thing, because you mentioned that earlier, I think there might be an opportunity. And I think this is where I think Jassy will either look brilliant or it might not pan out. So go big or go home moment. Can Amazon create a market for companies to say, instead of bringing along everybody, I'm going to bring along some people and hire more builders because there's rewards as spoils to be had for those builders. At this point in time, given the pandemic, it's kind of put everything on full display in terms of what to do. What's your thoughts on that? >>I think, I think outside in meaning I, I look at the customer and I, and I sit at the same side of the table as a customer. I think, what did they want? And every enterprise customer right now is building out their PRI it's just like in 1992, when they built out their private infrastructures, global infrastructure, and they did it with on-prem and data centers. I bought my stories, my compute, my networking, my MPLS, and I built my infrastructure. And it was my infrastructure. They're doing the same thing. It's just, they're architecting on top of cloud and they're doing it in a multi-cloud world because they're not going to be locked in to just one cloud. And they're going to have some applications that run better on GCP. Some have better in AWS and some on Oracle, and all of our customers are doing this. And what they want though, is a common infrastructure. That's their architecture and their infrastructure, not an AWS architecture and a Google architecture and an Azure architecture. What architecture, abstracted away above the clouds. That's my architecture. And it's common for my global network that that's what enterprises want to do. And I think each of the individual clouds are going to have to understand that they are a piece of the puzzle. They are not the puzzle. And I think you're going to have to come to that realization. >>I appreciate your expertise and insight into the commentary real quick, last 30 seconds, give a quick plug for Ava tricks. What are you guys doing? What's new cause the quick update. >>I mean, it's, it's, it's crazy just since, uh, I've been the CEO for two years and you know, the, the logos of large enterprise that we're getting right now. My, my Cambrian explosion that I saw two years ago is real, um, more executing on that strategy. It's a, who's who of logos right now. We've got 450 customers now we're, uh, exploding and more importantly, enterprises are now getting that deployment phase. They have, they're done with the architecture phase of, Hey, let me check this whole thing out in cloud. And now they're pushing the button and they're, they're accelerating, which my guess is it's not a coincidence that AWS is now talking about operations. And what Aviatrix does is, is, is, does gives that visibility and control cloud networking, but in a very cloud native way with Terraform simplicity, agility, because agility is part of mission critical infrastructure. Now can't be like it was in 1994 with a Cisco infrastructure where it said, what year do you want your, your, your infrastructure, Mr. Customer? >>Great. And the biggest thing people should pay attention to this year, uh, for around the enterprise dynamics with cloud and scale what's what should people be watching >>In your opinion? Just the continued movement of big enterprises, uh, all into cloud. The center of gravity is now into cloud and, uh, they're going to be completely running away from everything on prem. >>All right. Steven Landy, CEO of VBA tricks, a proven success entrepreneur CEO, back in the two years of the helm, the VBA tricks. Great to see you. I wish we were in person. One of our last events was your altitude event. It's on YouTube. If anyone was interested in watching, we had a great time. Steve, thank you so much for your candid commentary. Yeah. Thanks, John. Okay. I'm Jennifer with the cube. You're watching the cube virtual here on the cube. Thanks for watching..

>> Narrator: Live from Las Vegas, it's theCUBE covering AWS reInvent 2019. Brought to you by Amazon Web Services and Intel along with it's Ecosystem partners. >> Well, welcome back, everyone theCUBE's live coverage in Las Vegas for AWS reInvent. It's theCUBE's 10th year of operations, it's our seventh AWS reInvent and every year, it gets better and better and every year, we've had theCUBE at reInvent, Jerry Chen has been on as a guest. He's a VIP, Jerry Chen, now a general partner at Greylock Tier One, one of the leading global Venture capitals at Silicon Valley. Jerry, you've been on the journey with us the whole time. >> I guess I'm your good luck charm. >> (laughs) Well, keep it going. Keep on changing the game. So, thanks for coming on. >> Jerry: Thanks for having me. >> So, now that you're a seasoned partner now at Greylock. You got a lot of investments under your belt. How's it going? >> It's great, I mean look, every single year, I look around the landscape thinking, "What else could be coming? "What if we surprise this year?" What's the new trends? What both macro-trends, also company trends, like, who's going to buy who, who's going to go public? Every year, it just gets busier and busier and bigger and bigger. >> All these new categories are emerging with this new architecture. I call it Cloud 2.0, maybe next gen Cloud, whatever you want to call it, it's clear visibility now into the fact that DevOps is working, Cloud operations, large scale operations with Cloud is certainly a great value proposition. You're seeing now multiple databases, pick the tool, I think Jassy got that right in his keynote, I believe that, but now the data equation comes over the top. So, you got DevOps infrastructure as code, you got data now looking like it's going to go down that same path of data as code where developers don't have to deal with all the different nuances of how data's stored, how it's handled, where is it, warm or cold or at glacier. So, developers still don't have that yet today. Seems to be an area of Amazon. What's your take on all this? >> I think you saw, so what drove DevOps? Speed, right? It's basically how developers shows you operations, merging of two groups. So, we're seeing the same trend DataOps, right? How data engineers and data scientists can now have the same speeds developers had for the past 10 years, DataOps. So, A, what does that mean? Give me the menu of what I want like, Goldilocks, too big, too small, just right. Too hot, too cold, just right. Like, give me the storage tier, the data tier, the size I want, the temperature I want and the speed I want. So, you're seeing DataOps give the same kind of Goldilocks treatment as developers. >> And on terms of like Cloud evolution again, you've seen the movie from the beginning at VM where now through Amazon, seventh year. What jumps out at you, what do you look at as squinting through the trend lines and the fashion of the features, it still seems to be the same old game, compute memory storage and software. >> Well I mean, compute memory storage, there's an atomic building blocks of a compute, right? So, regardless of services these high level frameworks, deep down, you still have compute networking and storage. So, that's the building blocks but I think we're seeing 10th year of reInvent this kind of, it's not one size fits all but this really big fat long tail, small instances, micro-instances, server lists, big instances for like jumbo VMs, bare metal, right? So, you're seeing not one architecture but folks can kind of pick and choose buy compute by the drip, the drop or buy compute by the whole VM or whole server full. >> And a lot of people are like, the builders love that. Amazon owns the builder market. I mean, if anyone who's doing a startup, they pretty much start on Amazon. It's the most robust, you pick your tools, you build, but Steve Malaney was just on before us says, "Enterprise don't want power tools, "they're going to cut their hand off." (laughs) Right so, Microsoft's been winning with this approach of consumable Cloud and it's a nice card to play because they're not yet there with capabilities with Amazon, so it's a good call, they got an Enterprise sales force. Microsoft playing a different game than AWS because they have to. >> Sure I mean, what's football now, you have a running game, you need a passing game, right? So, if you can't beat them with the running game, you go with a passing game and so, Amazon has kind of like the fundamental building blocks or power tools for the builders. There's a large segment of population out there that don't want that level of building blocks but they want us a little bit more prescriptive. Microsoft's been around Enterprise for many many years, they understand prescriptive tools and architectures. So, you're going to become a little bit more prefab, if you will. Here's how you can actually construct the right application, ML apps, AI apps, et cetera. Let me give you the building blocks at a higher level abstraction. >> So, I want to get your take on value creations. >> Jerry: Sure. >> So, if it's still early (mumbles), it's took a lot more growth, you start to see Jassy even admit that in his keynotes that he said quote, "There are two types "of developers and customers. "People want the building blocks "or people who want solutions." Or prefab or some sort of more consumable. >> More prescriptive, yeah. >> So, I think Amazon's going to start going that way but that being said, there's still opportunities for startups. You're an investor, you invest in startups. Where do you see opportunities? If you're looking at the startup landscape, what is the playbook? How should you advise startups? Because ya know, have the best team or whatever but you look at Amazon, it's like, okay, they got large scale. >> Jerry: Yeah. >> I'm going to be a little nervous. Are they going to eat my lunch? Do I take advantage of them? Do I draft off them? There are wide spaces as vertical market's exploding that are available. What's your view on how startups should attack the wealth creation opportunity value creation? >> There, I mean, Amazon's creating a new market, right? So, you look at their list of many services. There's just like 175 services out there, which is basically too many for any one company to win every single service. So, but you look at that menu of services, each one of those services themselves can be a startup or a collection of services can be a startup. So, I look at that as a roadmap for opportunity of companies can actually go in and create value around AI, around data, around security, around observability because Amazon's not going to naturally win all of those markets. What they do have is distribution, right? They have a lot of developer mind share. So, if you're a startup, you play one or three themes. So like, one is how do I pick one area and go deep for IP, right? Like, cheaper, better, faster, own some IP and though, they're going to execute better and that's doable over and over again in different markets. Number two is, we talked about this before, there's not going to be a one Cloud wins all, Amazon's clearly in the lead, they have won most of the Cloud, so far, but it'll be a multi-Cloud world, it'll be On Premise world. So, how do I play a multi-Cloud world, is another angle, so, go deep in IP, go multi-Cloud. Number three is this end to end solution, kind of prescriptive. Amazon can get you 80% of the way there, 70% of the way there but if you're like, an AI developer, you're a CMO, you're a marketing developer, you kind of want this end to end solution. So, how can I put together a full suite of tools from beginning to end that can give me a product that's a better experience. So, either I have something that's a deeper IP play a seam between multiple Clouds or give it end to end solutions around a problem and solve that one problem for our customer. >> And in most cases, the underlay is Amazon or Azure. >> Or Google or Alley Cloud or On Premises. Not going to wait any time soon, right? And so, how do I create a single fabric, if you will that looks similar? >> I want to riff with you in real time here on theCUBE around data. So, data scale is obviously a big discussion that's starting to happen now, data tsunami, we've heard that for years. So, there's two scale benefits, horizontal scale with data and then vertical specialism, vertical scale or ya know, using AI machine learning in apps, having data, so, how do you view that? What's your reaction to the notion of creating the horizontal scale value and vertical specialism value? >> Both are a great place for startups, right? They're not mutually exclusive but I think if you go horizontal, the amount of data being created by your applications, your infrastructure, your sensors, time stories data, ridiculously large amount, right? And that's not going away any time soon. I recently did investment in ChronoSphere, 'cause you guys covered over at CUBEcon a few weeks ago, that's talking about metrics and observability data, time stories data. So, they're going to handle that horizontal amount of data, petabytes and petabytes, how can we quarry this quickly, deeply with a lot of insight? That's one play, right? Cheaper, better, faster at scale. The next play, like you said, is vertical. It's how do I own data or slice the data with more contacts than I know I was going to have? We talked about the virtual cycle of data, right? Just the system of intelligence, as well. If I own a set of data, be it healthcare, government or self-driving car data, that no one else has, I can build a solution end to end and go deep and so either pick a lane or pick a geography, you can go either way. It's hard to do both, though. >> It's hard for startup. >> For a startup. >> Any big company. >> Very few companies can do two things well, startups especially, succeed by doing one thing very well. >> I think my observation is that I think looking at Amazon, is that they want the horizontal and they're leaving offers on the table for our startups, the vertical. >> Yeah, if you look at their strategy, the lower level Amazon gets, the more open-sourced, the more ubiquitous you try to be for containers, server lists, networking, S3, basic sub straits, so, horizontal horizontal, low price. As you get higher up from like, deep mind like, AI technologies, perception, prediction, they're getting a little bit more specialized, right? As you see these solutions around retail, healthcare, voice, so, the higher up in the stack, they can build more narrow solutions because like any startup of any product, you need the right wedge. What's the right wedge in the customers? At the base level of developers, building blocks, ubiquitous. For solutions marketing, healthcare, financial services, retail, how do I find a fine point wedge? >> So, the old Venture business was all enamored with consumers over the years and then, maybe four years ago, Enterprise got hot. We were lowly Enterprise guys where no one-- >> Enterprise has been hot forever in my mind, John but maybe-- >> Well, first of all, we've been hot on Enterprise, we love Enterprise but then all of a sudden, it just seemed like, oh my God, people had an awakening like, and there's real value to be had. The IT spend has been trillions and the stats are roughly 20 or so percent, yet to move to the Cloud or this new next gen architecture that you're investing companies in. So, a big market... that's an investment thesis. So, a huge enterprise market, Steve Malaney of Aviation called it a thousand foot wave. So, there's going to be a massive enterprise money... big bag of money on the table. (laughs) A lot of re-transformations, lot of reborn on the Cloud, lot of action. What's your take on that? Do you see it the same way because look how they're getting in big time, Goldman Sachs on stage here. It's a lot of cash. How do you think it's going to be deployed and who's going to be fighting for it? >> Well, I think, we talked about this in the past. When you look to make an investment, as a startup founder or as a VC, you want to pick a wave bigger than you, bigger than your competitors. Right so, on the consumer side, ya know, the classic example, your Instagram fighting Facebook and photo sharing, you pick the mobile first wave, iPhone wave, right, the first mobile native photo sharing. If you're fighting Enterprise infrastructure, you pick the Cloud data wave, right? You pick the big data wave, you pick the AI waves. So, first as a founder startup, I'm looking for these macro-waves that I see not going away any time soon. So, moving from BaaS data to streaming real time data. That's a wave that's happening, that's inevitable. Dollars are floating from slower BaaS data bases to streaming real time analytics. So, Rocksett, one of the investors we talked about, they're riding that wave from going BaaS to real time, how to do analytics and sequel on real time data. Likewise, time servers, you're going from like, ya know, BaaS data, slow data to massive amounts of time storage data, Chronosphere, playing that wave. So, I think you have to look for these macro-waves of Cloud, which anyone knows but then, you pick these small wavelettes, if that's a word, like a wavelettes or a smaller wave within a wave that says, "Okay, I'm going to "pick this one trend." Ride it as a startup, ride it as an investor and because that's going to be more powerful than my competitors. >> And then, get inside the wave or inside the tornado, whatever metaphor. >> We're going to torch the metaphors but yeah, ride that wave. >> All right, Jerry, great to have you on. Seven years of CUBE action. Great to have you on, congratulations, you're VIP, you've been with us the whole time. >> Congratulations to you, theCUBE, the entire staff here. It's amazing to watch your business grow in the past seven years, as well. >> And we soft launch our CUBE 365, search it, it's on Amazon's marketplace. >> Jerry: Amazing. >> SaaS, our first SaaS offering. >> I love it, I mean-- >> John: No Venture funding. (laughs) Ya know, we're going to be out there. Ya know, maybe let you in on the deal. >> But now, like you broadcast the deal to the rest of the market. >> (laughs) Jerry, great to have you on. Again, great to watch your career at Greylock. Always happy to have ya on, great commentary, awesome time, Jerry Chen, Venture partner, general partner of Greylock. So keep coverage, breaking down the commentary, extracting the signal from the noise here at reInvent 2019, I'm John Furrier, back with more after this short break. (energetic electronic music)