>>from around the globe. It's the Cube presenting Cuban cloud brought to you by silicon angle. Hi. I'm still Minuteman. And welcome back to the Cube on Cloud. Talking about really important topics is toe how developers we're changing how they build their applications where they live. Of course. Long discussion we've had for a number of years, you know? How do things change in hybrid environment? We've been talking for years. Public cloud and Private Cloud and really excited for this session. We're gonna talk about how edge environment and ai impact that. So happy to walk back. One of our cube alumni, Simon Crosby, is currently the chief technology officer with swim. Got plenty of viewpoints on AI the edge and knows the developer world. Well, Simon, welcome back. Thanks so much for joining us. >>Thank you, sir, for having me. >>All right. So let let let's start start for a second. Let's talk about developers, you know, used to be, you know, for for years we talked about, you know, what's the level of abstraction we get? Does it sit? You know, you know, do I put it on bare metal? Do I virtualized it? Do I contain Arise it. Do I make it serve? Ellis? Ah, lot of those things. You know that the app developer doesn't want to even think about. But location matters a whole lot when we're talking about things like a I where do I have all my data? That I could do my training? Where do I actually have to do the processing? And, of course, edge. Just changes by orders of magnitude, Some of the things like Leighton see, and where data lives and everything like that. So with that as a set up would love to get just your framework as to what you're hearing from developers and what will gettinto Some of the solutions that that you and your team are helping them toe do their jobs >>where you're up to lights to the data onslaught is very riel. Companies that I deal with are facing more and more real time data from products from their infrastructure from their partners, whatever it happens to be, and they need to make decisions rapidly. And the problem that they're facing is that traditional ways of processing that data or to so so perhaps the big data approach which by now is a bit old. It's been long in the tooth, Um, where you stored it and then you analyze it later is problematic. First of all, data streams of boundless so you don't really know winter analyze. But second, you can't store all. And so the story and analyze approach has to change and swim is trying to do something about this by adopting a process off. Analyze um, on the fly. So as dead is generate as you receive events, you don't bother Saw them. You you analyze them, and then if you have tow you still the data. But you you need to analyze as you receive data. Andre react immediately to be able to generate reasonable insights or predictions that can drive commerce and decisions in the real world. >>Yeah, absolutely. I remember back, you know, the early days of big data, you know, real time got thrown around a little, but it was usually I need to react fast enough toe. Make sure we don't, you know, lose the customer, we react toe something. But it was we gather all the data and let's move compute to the data. Uh, today is you talk about real time streams are so important. We've been talking about observe ability for last couple of years to just really understand the systems and the outputs More than, uh, looking back historically at where things were waiting for alerts. So could you give us some examples, if you would, Is toe You know that those streams, you know what is so important about being able to interact and leverage that data when you need it? And, boy, it's great if we can if we can use it then and not have to store it and think about it later. Obviously, there's some benefits there because >>every product nowadays has a CPU, right? And so there's more and more data and just let me give you an example. Um, swim processes real time data from more than 100 million mobile devices in real time, Um, in for a mobile operator. And what we're doing there is We're optimizing connection quality between devices and the network. Now that volume of data is more than four petabytes per day. Okay, now there is simply no way you could ever store that and analyze it later. The interesting thing about this is that if you adopt and analyze. And then if you really have to store architecture, you get to take advantage of Muslim. So you're running at CPU memory speeds instead of a disc speed, and so that gives you a million fold speed up. And it also means you don't have the Leighton see problem off reaching out to her boat storage, dead base or whatever. And so that reduces cost so we can do it all about 10% of the infrastructure that they previously had for her do style implementation. >>So maybe would help if we just explain when we say edge, people think of a lot of different things. Is it? You know, on I o. T device sitting out into the edge Are we talking about the telecom edge? We're watching a WS for years, you know, Spider out their services and into various environment. So what when you talk about the type of solutions you're doing and what your customers have is that the Telkom edges that the, you know, actual device edge, you know, where where does processing happen and where do these, you know, services that that work on it live? >>Uh, so I think the right way to think about edges. Where can you reasonably process the data? And it obviously makes sense to process data at the first opportunity you have. But much data is encrypted between the original device. Say Onda. The application and so edge as a place doesn't make as much sense as edge as an opportunity to decrypt and analyze data in the clear. So is computing is not so much a place in my view as the first opportunity you have to process state in the clear and to make sense of it. And then edge makes sense in terms of Leighton, see, by locating compute as close as possible to the sources of data, um, to reduce latency and maximize your ability to get insights. You know, Andre return to uses in, you know, quickly. So edge for me often is the cloud >>excellent. One of the other things I I think about back from, you know, the big data days or even earlier It was that how long it took to get from the raw data to processing that data, to be able to getting some insight and then being able to take action. Uh, it sure sounds like we're trying to collapse That completely. Is that you know, how do we do that? You know, Can we actually, you know, build the system so that we can, you know, in that real time continuous model that you talk about, You know? So what character movements? One >>of the wonderful things about cloud computing is that two major abstractions really served us on. Those are rest which expect this computing and databases and rest means in the old server can do the job for me. And then the database is just a napi I call away. The problem with that is that it's desperately slow. So when I say desperately slow, I mean, it's probably thrown away the last 10 years, Um, was law. Just think about this way. Your CPU runs at gigahertz and the network runs at milliseconds. So by definition, every time you reach out to a data store, you're going a million times slower than your Cebu. That's terrible. It's absolutely tragic. Okay, so a model which is much more effective is to have and in memory, computing architecture er in which you engage in state will computation. So instead of having to reach out to a database every time to update the database and whatever you know, store something and then fetch it again a few moments later when the next event arrives. You keep state in memory and you compute on the fly as data arrives and that way you get a million times speed up. You also end up with this tremendous cost direction because you don't end up with as many instances having to compute by comparison. So let me give you a quick example. If you go to a traffic dots from the AI, you can see, um, the real time state off the traffic infrastructure in Palo Alto. And, um, each one of those, um intersections is predicting its own future. Now, the volume of data from just a few 100 lights in Palo Alto is about four terabyte today. And sure, you can deal with this in AWS Lambda. There are lots and lots of servers up there. But the problem is that the end to end per event leighton see, is about 100 milliseconds. And you know, if I'm dealing with 30,000 events a second, that's just too much so solving that problem with a stateless architectures is extraordinarily expensive. You know, more than $5000 a month. Where is the staple architectural? Which you could think of as an evolution all for, uh, you know, something reactive or the actor model, Um, get you, You know, something like 1/10 of the cost. Okay, so cloud is fabulous for things that need to scale wide, but a state formal is required for dealing with things which update you rapidly or regularly about their changes in state. >>Yeah, absolutely. I You know, I think about if we were talking, I mentioned before AI training models often, if you look at something like autonomous vehicles, the massive amounts of data that it needs to process, you know, has to happen in the public cloud. Um, but then that gets pushed back down to the end device. In this case, it's a car because it needs to be able to react in real time and get fed at a regular update. The new training algorithms that that it has there. Um what are you saying? You know, we >>were reviews on on this training approach and the science in general, and that is that there aren't enough the scientists or no smart people to train these algorithms, deploy them to the edge and so on. And so there is an alternative worldview, which is a much simpler one, and that is that relatively simple algorithms deployed at scale to staple representatives. Their school, you know, digital twins off things, um, can deliver enormous improvements in behavior. Um, as things learn for themselves. So the way I think the at least this edge world gets smaller is that relatively simple models off things will learn for themselves for their own futures based on what they can see and and then react. And so this idea that we have lots and lots of very scientists dealing with vast amounts of information in the cloud, Um, it's suitable for certain algorithms, but it doesn't work for the vast majority of our applications. >>So where are we with the state of what the developers need to think about? You mentioned that there's compute in most devices. That's true, but you know they need some special in video chip set out there. Are there certain programming languages that that you're seeing more prevalent? Yeah, you know, interoperability. Give us a little bit of toe, you know, some tips and tricks for for those developing >>super so number one a staple architectures is fundamental and sure react is well known. Andi, there are, For example, on er lang swim is another. So I'm going to use some language. And I would encourage you to look at Cem O s or G to go from play there. A staple architecture, ER which allows actors small, concurrent objects to Stapley evolve their own state based on updates from the real world is fundamental. But the way in swim, we use data to build these models. So, um, these little agents for things we call them Web agents because the object I'd is a your I, um they staple evolved by processing their own real world data safely representing it. And then they do this wonderful thing, which is build a model on the fly, and they build a model by linking to things that they're related to. So a knit section would link to all of its sensors. But it would also licked all of its neighbors because the neighbors and linking is like a sub in pubs up and it allows that Web agent then to continually analyze, learn and predict on the fly. And so every one of these concurrent objects is doing this job off and analyzing its own raw data and then predicting from that and streaming the results so and swim you get stream board data in. And what streams out is predictions. Predictions about the future state off the infrastructure, and that's a very powerful staple approach, which can run all the memory. No stories required, by the way. It's still persistence. If you lose the no, you can just come back up and carry on. But there's no need to store huge amounts of raw data if you don't need it. And let me just be clear. The volumes of raw data from the real world are staggering, right? So for Porter by today from Palo Alto. But Las Vegas, about 60 terabytes today from the traffic lights, Um, no more than 100 million mobile devices is is tens of petabytes per day, which is just too much the store. >>Well, Simon, you'd mentioned that we we have a shortage when it comes to data scientists and the people that could be involved in those things. How about from the developer side? Do most enterprises that you're talking to? Do they have the skill set? Is the ecosystem mature enough for the company take involved? Or what do we need to do? Looking forward, toa help companies be able to take advantage of this opportunity. >>Yeah, So there is a huge change in terms of, I guess just cloud native skills. Um, and this is exacerbated. The more you get out into, I guess what you could think of as traditional kind of companies, all of whom have tons and tons of data sources. So we need to make it easy and swim tries to do this by effectively using skills of people already have Java or JavaScript and giving them easy ways to develop, deploy and then run applications without thinking about them. So instead of finding developers to notions of place and where databases are and all that sort of stuff, if they can write simple, object oriented programs about things like intersections and push buttons, a pedestrian lights, and in road loops and so on and simply relate basic objects in their world to each other, then we let data build the model by essentially creating these little concurrent objects for each thing, and they will then link to each other and solve the problem. We end up solving a huge problem for developers to which is that they don't need to acquire complicated cloud native skill sets to get to work. >>Well, absolutely. Simon, that's something we've been trying to do for a long time. Is to truly simplify things. I wanna let you have the final word. Uh, if you look out there, uh, the opportunity that challenge in the space, what final takeaways would would you get our audience? >>So very simple. If you adopt a staple competing Achter should like swim, you get to go a million times faster. The applications always have an answer. They analyze, learn and predict on the fly, and they go million times faster. They use 10% less. No. So 10% off the infrastructure of a store than analyze approach. And it's the way of the future. >>Simon Crosby. Thanks so much for sharing. Great having you on the program. >>Thank you too. >>And thank you for joining. I'm stew Minuteman. Thank you. As always for watching the cube. Yeah,

>> Hi, I'm Stu Miniman, and welcome back to theCUBE on Cloud talking about really important topics as to how developers, were changing how they build their applications, where they live, of course, long discussion we've had for a number of years. You know, how do things change in hybrid environments? We've been talking for years, public cloud and private cloud, and really excited for this session. We're going to talk about how edge environment and AI impact that. So happy to welcome back one of our CUBE alumni, Simon Crosby, is currently the Chief Technology Officer with Swim. He's got plenty of viewpoints on AI, the edge and knows the developer world well. Simon, welcome back. Thanks so much for joining us. >> Thank you, Stu, for having me. >> All right, so let's start for a second. Let's talk about developers. You know, it used to be, you know, for years we talked about, you know, what's the level of abstraction we get. Does it sit, you know, do I put it on bare metal? Do I virtualize it? Do I containerize it? Do I make it serverless? A lot of those things, you know that the app developer doesn't want to even think about but location matters a whole lot when we're talking about things like AI where do I have all my data that I could do my training? Where do I actually have to do the processing? And of course, edge just changes by orders of magnitude. Some of the things like latency and where data lives and everything like that. So with that as a setup, would love to get just your framework as to what you're hearing from developers and what we'll get into some of the solutions that you and your team are helping them to do their jobs. >> Well, you're absolutely right, Stu. The data onslaught is very real. Companies that I deal with are facing more and more real-time data from products from their infrastructure, from their partners whatever it happens to be and they need to make decisions rapidly. And the problem that they're facing is that traditional ways of processing that data are too slow. So perhaps the big data approach, which by now is a bit old, it's a bit long in the tooth, where you store data and then you analyze it later, is problematic. First of all, data streams are boundless. So you don't really know when to analyze, but second you can't store it all. And so the store then analyze approach has to change and Swim is trying to do something about this by adopting a process of analyze on the fly, so as data is generated, as you receive events you don't bother to store them. You analyze them, and then if you have to, you store the data, but you need to analyze as you receive data and react immediately to be able to generate reasonable insights or predictions that can drive commerce and decisions in the real world. >> Yeah absolutely. I remember back in the early days of big data, you know, real time got thrown around a little but it was usually I need to react fast enough to make sure we don't lose the customer, react to something, but it was, we gather all the data and let's move compute to the data. Today as you talk about, you know, real time streams are so important. We've been talking about observability for the last couple of years to just really understand the systems and the outputs more than looking back historically at where things were waiting for alerts. So could you give us some examples if you would, as to you know, those streams, you know, what is so important about being able to interact and leverage that data when you need it? And boy, it's great if we can use it then and not have to store it and think about it later, obviously there's some benefits there, because-- >> Well every product nowadays has a CPU, right? And so there's more and more data. And just let me give you an example, Swim processes real-time data from more than a hundred million mobile devices in real time, for a mobile operator. And what we're doing there is we're optimizing connection quality between devices and the network. Now that volume of data is more than four petabytes per day, okay. Now there is simply no way you can ever store that and analyze it later. The interesting thing about this is that if you adopt and analyze, and then if you really have to store architecture, you get to take advantage of Moore's Law. So you're running at CPU memory speeds instead of at disk speed. And so that gives you a million fold speed up, and it also means you don't have the latency problem of reaching out to, or about storage, database, or whatever. And so that reduces costs. So we can do it on about 10% of the infrastructure that they previously had for Hadoop style implementation. >> So, maybe it would help if we just explain. When we say edge people think of a lot of different things, is it, you know an IOT device sitting out at the edge? Are we talking about the Telecom edge? We've been watching AWS for years, you know, spider out their services and into various environments. So when you talk about the type of solutions you're doing and what your customers have, is it the Telecom edge? Is it the actual device edge, you know, where does processing happen and where do these you know, services that work on it live? >> So I think the right way to think about edge is where can you reasonably process the data? And it obviously makes sense to process data at the first opportunity you have, but much data is encrypted between the original device, say, and the application. And so edge as a place doesn't make as much sense as edge as an opportunity to decrypt and analyze data in the clear. So edge computing is not so much a place in my view as the first opportunity you have to process data in the clear and to make sense of it. And then edge makes sense, in terms of latency, by locating, compute, as close as possible to the sources of data, to reduce latency and maximize your ability to get insights and return them to users, you know, quickly. So edge for me often is the cloud. >> Excellent, one of the other things I think about back from, you know, the big data days or even earlier, it was that how long it took to get from the raw data to processing that data, to be able to getting some insight, and then being able to take action. It sure sounds like we're trying to collapse that completely, is that, you know, how do we do that? You know, can we actually, you know, build the system so that we can, you know, in that real time, continuous model that you talk about, you know. Take care of it and move on. >> So one of the wonderful things, one of the wonderful things about cloud computing is that two major abstractions have really served us. And those are rest, which is static disk computing, and databases. And rest means any old server can do the job for me and then the database is just an API call away. The problem with that is that it's desperately slow. So when I say desperately slow, I mean, it's probably thrown away the last 10 years of Moore's law. Just think about it this way. Your CPU runs at gigahertz and the network runs at milliseconds. So by definition, every time you reach out to a data store you're going a million times slower than your CPU. That's terrible. It's absolutely tragic, okay. So a model which is much more effective is to have an in-memory computer architecture in which you engage in staple computation. So instead of having to reach out to a database every time to update the database and whatever, you know, store something, and then fetch it again a few moments later when the next event arrives, you keep state in memory and you compute on the fly as data arrives. And that way you get a million times speed up. You also end up with this tremendous cost reduction because you don't end up with as many instances having to compute, by comparison. So let me give you a quick example. If you go to a traffic.swim.ai you can see the real time state of the traffic infrastructure in Palo Alto. And each one of those intersections is predicting its own future. Now, the volume of data from just a few hundred lights in Palo Alto is about four terabytes a day. And sure you can deal with this in AWS Lambda. There are lots and lots of servers up there. But the problem is that the end to end per event latency is about 100 milliseconds. And, you know, if I'm dealing with 30,000 events a second, that's just too much. So solving that problem with a stateless architecture is extraordinarily expensive, more than $5,000 a month. Whereas the staple architecture which you could think of as an evolution of, you know, something reactive or the actor model, gets you, you know something like a 10th of the cost, okay. So cloud is fabulous for things that need to scale wide but a staple model is required for dealing with things which update you rapidly or regularly about their changes in state. >> Yeah, absolutely. You know, I think about if, I mentioned before AI training models, often, if you look at something like autonomous vehicles, the massive amounts of data that it needs to process, you know, has to happen in the public cloud. But then that gets pushed back down to the end device, in this case it's a car, because it needs to be able to react in real time and gets fed at a regular update, the new training algorithms that it has there. What are you seeing-- >> I have strong reason on this training approach and data science in general, and that is that there aren't enough data scientists or, you know, smart people to train these algorithms, deploy them to the edge and so on. And so there is an alternative worldview which is a much simpler one and that is that relatively simple algorithms deployed at scale to staple representatives, let's call them digital twins of things, can deliver enormous improvements in behavior as things learn for themselves. So the way I think the, at least this edge world, gets smarter is that relatively simple models of things will learn for themselves, create their own futures, based on what they can see and then react. And so this idea that we have lots and lots of data scientists dealing with vast amounts of information in the cloud is suitable for certain algorithms but it doesn't work for the vast majority of applications. >> So where are we with the state of what, what do developers need to think about? You mentioned that there's compute in most devices. That's true, but, you know, do they need some special Nvidia chip set out there? Are there certain programming languages that you are seeing more prevalent, interoperability, give us a little bit of, you know, some tips and tricks for those developing. >> Super, so number one, a staple architecture is fundamental and sure React is well known and there are ACA for example, and Spurling. Swim is another so I'm going to use some language and I would encourage you to look at swimos.org to go from play there. A staple architecture, which allows actors, small concurrent objects to stapely evolve their own state based on updates from the real world is fundamental. By the way, in Swim we use data to build these models. So these little agents, for things, we call them web agents because the object ID is a URI, they stapley evolve by processing their own real-world data, stapley representing it, And then they do this wonderful thing which is build a model on the fly. And they build a model by linking to things that they're related to. So a need section would link to all of its sensors but it would also link to all of its neighbors because the neighbors and linking is like a sub in Pub/Sub, and it allows that web agent then to continually analyze, learn, and predict on the fly. And so every one of these concurrent objects is doing this job of analyzing its own raw data and then predicting from that and streaming the result. So in Swim, you get streamed raw data in and what streams out is predictions, predictions about the future state of the infrastructure. And that's a very powerful staple approach which can run all their memory, no storage required. By the way, it's still persistent, so if you lose a node, you can just come back up and carry on but there's no need to store huge amounts of raw data if you don't need it. And let me just be clear. The volumes of raw data from the real world are staggering, right? So four terabytes a day from Palo Alto, but Las Vegas about 60 terabytes a day from the traffic lights. More than 100 million mobile devices is tens of petabytes per day, which is just too much to store. >> Well, Simon, you've mentioned that we have a shortage when it comes to data scientists and the people that can be involved in those things. How about from the developers side, do most enterprises that you're talking to do they have the skillset? Is the ecosystem mature enough for the company to get involved? What do we need to do looking forward to help companies be able to take advantage of this opportunity? >> Yeah, so there is this huge challenge in terms of, I guess, just cloud native skills. And this is exacerbated the more you get added to. I guess what you could think of is traditional kind of companies, all of whom have tons and tons of data sources. So we need to make it easy and Swim tries to do this by effectively using skills that people already have, Java or JavaScript, and giving them easy ways to develop, deploy, and then run applications without thinking about them. So instead of binding developers to notions of place and where databases are and all that sort of stuff if they can write simple object-oriented programs about things like intersections and push buttons, and pedestrian lights, and inroad loops and so on, and simply relate basic objects in the world to each other then we let data build the model by essentially creating these little concurrent objects for each thing, and they will then link to each other and solve the problem. We end up solving a huge problem for developers too, which is that they don't need to acquire complicated cloud-native skillsets to get to work. >> Well absolutely, Simon, it's something we've been trying to do for a long time is to truly simplify things. Want to let you have the final word. If you look out there, the opportunity, the challenge in the space, what final takeaways would you give to our audience? >> So very simple. If you adopt a staple competing architecture, like Swim, you get to go a million times faster. The applications always have an answer. They analyze, learn and predict on the fly and they go a million times faster. They use 10% less, no, sorry, 10% of the infrastructure of a store than analyze approach. And it's the way of the future. >> Simon Crosby, thanks so much for sharing. Great having you on the program. >> Thank you, Stu. >> And thank you for joining I'm Stu Miniman, thank you, as always, for watching theCUBE.

>> Hi, I'm Peter Burris and welcome to another Cube Conversation. We're broadcasting from our beautiful Palo Alto studios and this time we've got a couple of great guests from SWIM. And one of them is Chris Sachs, who's the founder and lead architect. And the other one is Simon Crosby, who's the CTO. Welcome to the Cube, guys. >> Great to be here. >> Thank you. >> So let's start. Tell us a little bit about yourselves. Well, Chris, let's start with you. >> So my name's Chris Sachs. I'm a co-founder of SWIM, and my background is embedded in distributed systems and bringing those two worlds together. And I've spent the last three years building software from first principles for its computing. >> But embedded, very importantly, that's small devices, highly distributed with a high degree of autonomy-- >> Chris: Yes. >> And how they will interact with each other. >> Right. You need both the small footprint and you need to scale down and out, is one thing that we say. People get scaling out in the cloud and scaling up and out. For the edge, you need to scale down and out. There's similarities to how clouds scale and some very different principles. >> We're going to get into that. So Simon, CTO. >> Sure, my name is Simon Crosby. I came this way courtesy of being an academic, a long time ago, and then doing startups. This is startup number five for me. I was CTO and founder at XenSource. We built the Xen hypervisor. Also at Bromium, where we did micro-virtualization, and I'm privileged to be along for the ride with Chris. >> Excellent. So guys, the SWIM promise is edge AI. I like that, down and out. Tell us a little bit about it, Chris. >> So one of the key observations that we've made over the past half decade is there's a whole lot of compute cycles being showered on planet Earth. ARM is shipping five billion chips a quarter. And there's a tremendous amount of computing, generating a tremendous about of data and it's trapped in the edge. There are physics problems, economic problems with back on it all to the cloud, but there's tremendous, you're capturing the functionality of the world on these chips. >> We like to say that if software's going to eat the world, it's going to eat it at the edge. Is that kind of what you mean? >> Yes. >> That's right. >> And you start running into, when you decide you want to eat the edge, you run into problems very quickly with a traditional way of doing things. So one example is where does your database live if you live on the edge? Which telephone pole are you going to put at your database node in? >> Simon: How big does this need to be? >> There are a number of decisions that are very difficult to make. So SWIM's promises, now, you have some advantages as well in that billions of clock cycles go by on these chips in between that work packets. And if you can figure out how to squeeze your software into these slop cycles between network packets, you can actually do, you actually have a super computer, a global super computer on which you can do machine learning. You can try and predict the future of how physical systems are going to play out-- >> Hence, your background in distributive systems because the goal is to try to ensure that the network packets are as productive as possible. >> Chris: Exactly. >> Here's another way of looking at the problem. If you count top down, it's reasonable to think of things in the future, all sorts of things, which have got computer and maybe some networking in them, presenting to you a digital twin of themselves. Where's the thing come from? >> Now, describe digital twin. We've done a lot of research on this, but it's still is relatively novel concept. GE talked about it. IVM talks about it. When we say digital twin, we're talking about the simulacrum, the digital representation of an actual thing, right? >> Of an actual thing. There are a couple of ways you can get there. One way is if you give me the detailed design of a thing and exactly how it works, I can give you all of that detail and maybe (mumbles) can help use that to find a problem. The other way is to try and construct it automatically. And that's exactly what SWIM does. >> So it takes the thing and builds models around it that are-- >> Well, so what do things do? Things give us data. So the problem, then, becomes how can I build a digital twin just given the data? Just given the observations of what this thing is seeing, what its sensors are bleating about, what things near it are saying. How can I build a digital twin, which will analyze itself, tell you what its current state is and predict the future, just from the data? >> All right, so the bottom line is that you've got, you're providing a facility to help model real world things that tend to operate in an analog way and turning them into digital representations that then can be a full member, in fact, perhaps even a superior member in a highly distributed system of how things work together. >> Yes. >> Got that right. >> A few key points is digital twins are in the loop with the real world. And they are in the loop with their neighbors, and you start with digital twins that reflect the physical world, but they don't end there. You can have physical twins. You can have digital twins of concepts as well and other higher order notions. And from the masses of data that you get from physical devices, you can actually infer the existence of twins where you don't even have a sensor. >> It's making it real. So you could have a digital. If you happen to be tracking all of the buses in downtown San Francisco, you can infer PM10 pollution as a virtual sensor on a bus. And then you can pretty quickly work out something which is a value to somebody who's trying to sell insurance, for example. And that's not a real sensor on every bus, but you can then compose these things, given that you have these other digital twins which are manifesting themselves. >> So folks talk about the butterfly effect and things like chaos theory, which is a butterfly affecting the weather in China. But what we're talking about is locality really matters. It matters in real systems. And it matters in computers. And if you have something that's generating data, more than likely, that thing is going to want its own data because of locality. But also, the things near it are also going to want to be able to infer or understand the behavior of that thing, because it's going to have a consequential impact on them. >> Correct, so I'll give you two examples of that. We've been using aircraft manufacturing facility. The virtual twin here is some widget which has an RFID tag in it. We don't know what that is. We just know there's a tag and we can place it in three ways because it gets seen by multiple sensors we triangulate. And then, as these tags come together makes an aircraft sub-assembly. That meaning of an aircraft sub-assembly is kind of another thing but the nearness, it's the locality that gets you there. So I can say all these tags came together. Let's track that as a superior object. There's a containment notion there. And suddenly, we're tracking will assemblies instead of widgets. >> And this is where the AI comes in, because now, the AI is the basis for recognizing the patterns of these tags and being able to infer from the characteristics of these patterns that it's a sub-assembly. Have I got that right? >> Right. There's a unique opportunity that is opened up in AI when you're watching things unfold live in that you have this great unifying force to learn off of, which is causality. It's the what does everything have in common? It's that data that you've lost through time. And what do you do when you have billions of clock cycles to spare between network packets? Well, you can make a guess about what your particular digital twin might see next. So you can take a guess based on what you're state is, what the sensors around you are saying, and just make a guess. Then you can see what actually happens. You see what actually happens. You measure the error between what you predicted would happen and what actually happened. And you can correct for that. And you could do that just add in an item. Just trillions of times over the course of a year, you make small corrections for how you think. Your particular system will evolve, whether it's a street of traffic light trying to predict when it's going to change, when cars are going to show up, when pedestrians are going to push buttons, or it's a machine, a conveyor belt or a motor in a factory, trying to predict when it might break down, you can learn from these precise systems that very specific models of how they're going to evolve and you can play reality forward. You learn a simulation. And you can play your own, predict your own future. >> And there's a very cool thing that shows up from that. So instead of say, let's take a city and all of its lights. Instead of trying to gather all that data from the city and go then solve a big model, which is the cloud approach to doing this, big data in cloud approach, essentially each one of these digital twins is solving its own problem of how do I predict my own future? So instead of solving one big model, you'll have 200 different insections all predicting their own future, which is totally cool, because it distributes well in this fabric of space CPU cycles and can be very efficient to computers. >> And a consequence of that is, again, you can get these very rich patterns that then these things can learn more from and each acting autonomously in individual as groups. >> Even more than that. There's an even cooler thing. Imagine I set you down by an insection and I said, "Write me a program for how this thing is going to behave." First of all, you wouldn't know how to do it. Second, there aren't enough humans on planet Earth to do this. What we're saying is that we can construct this program from the data, from this thing as it evolves through time. We'll construct the program, and it will be merely a learned model. And then you could ask it how it's going to behave in the future. You could say, "Well, what if I do this? "What if a pedestrian pushes this button? "What will the response be?" So effectively, you're learning a program. You're learning the digital twin just from the data. >> All right, so how does SWIM do this? So we know now we know what it is. And we know that it's using, it's stealing cycles from CPUs that are mainly set up to gather, to sense things, and package data up and send it off somewhere else, but how does it actually work? What does the designer, the developer, the operator do with SWIM that they couldn't do before? >> So SWIM is a tiny, vertically integrated software stack that does all, has all the capabilities you'd find in an open source cloud platform. You have persistence. You have message dispatch. You have peer-to-peer routing. You have analytics and a number of other capabilities. But SWIM hides that and it takes care of it, abstracts over what you need to do to, rather than thinking about where do you place compute, it's when you think "What is my model? "What is my digital twin? "And what am I related to?" And SWIM dynamically maps these logical models to physical hardware at run time and dynamically moves these encapsulated agents around as needed based on the loads and the demand in the network. And in the same way that-- >> In the events? >> Yes, in the events. And in the same way that you, if you're using Microsoft Word, you don't really what CPU core is that running on? Who knows and who cares? It's a solved problem. We look from the ground up and the edge is just one big massively, multi-core computer. And there's similar principles to apply in terms of how you maintain consistency, how you efficiently route data that you can abstract over and eliminate as a problem that you have to be concerned about as a developer or a user who just wants to ingest some data and get insights on how-- >> So I'm going to make sure I got that. So if I look at the edge, which might have 200, might have 10 thousand sensors associated with it, we can imagine, for example, level of complexity like what happens on a drilling platform on an oil field. Probably is 10 thousand sensors on that thing, all of these different things. Each of those sensors are doing something. And they're sending, dispatching information. But what you're doing is you're basically saying we can now look at those sensors that can do their own thing, but we can also look at them as a cluster of processing capability. We'll put a little bit of software on there that will provide a degree of coordinated control so that models can-- >> So two things. >> Build up out of that? >> So first off, SWIM itself builds a distributed fabric on whatever computer's available. And you can smear SWIM between an embedded environment and a VM in the cloud. We just don't care. >> But the point is anything you pointed at becomes part of this cluster. >> Yes, but the second level of this is when you start to discover the entities in the real world. And you begin to discover the entities from that data. So I'll get all this gray stuff. I don't really know what it means, but I'm going to find these entities and what they're related to and then, for each entity, instantiate when these digital twins as an active, essentially the things that microservice. It's a stateful microservice, which is then just going to consume its own real world data and do its thing and then present what it knows by an API or graphical UI components. >> So I'm an operator. I install. What do I do to install? >> You start a process on whatever devices you have available. So SWIM is completely self-contained and has no external dependencies. So we can run as the (mumbles) analytics box or even without an operating system. >> So I basically target swim at the device and it installs? >> Chris: Correct. >> Once it's installed, how am I then acquiring it through software development? >> Ultimately, in this edge world, there is, you've asked the key question, which is how the hell do I get ahold of this stuff and how does it run? And I don't think the world knows the answer to all these questions. So, for example, in the traffic views case, the answer is this. We've published an API. It happens to be an (mumbles), but who cares? Where people like Uber and Lyft or UPS can show up and say what's this traffic light can do in the future. And they just hit that. What they're doing is going for the insides of digital twins in real time as a service. That's kind of an interesting thing to do, right? But you might find this embedded in a widget, because it's small enough to be able to do that. You might find that a customer installs them in a couple of boxes and it just runs. We don't really care. It will be there, and it's trivial to run. >> So you're going to be moving it into people who are building these embedded fixtures? >> Sure. >> Yes. >> Sure, but the key point here is that I know you, particularly in the Cube, you're hearing all these wonderful stories about DevOps and (mumbles) and all this guff up in the cloud, fine. That's where you want those people to be. >> Don't call it guff (laughs). >> But at the edge, no (mumbles). There aren't enough humans to run this stuff so it's got to be completely automatic. It's got to just wake up, run, find all the compute, run ceaselessly, distribute load, be resilient, be secure, all these things that just got to happen. >> So SWIM becomes a service that is shipped with an embedded system. >> Possibly, or there is a potential outcome where it's delivered as software which runs on a box close to some widget. >> Or willed out as a software update with some existing manufacturers. >> In this particular case of traffic, we should be on 60 thousand insections by the end of this year. The traffic infrastructure vendor, the vendor that delivers the traffic management system, just rolls up an upgrade and suddenly, a whole bunch of new insections appear in a cloud API. And an UBER or a Lyft or whatever, it's just hitting that thing and finding out what they are. >> Great, and so but as developers, am I going into a SWIM environment and doing anything? This is just the way that the data's being captured. >> Simon: So we take data. >> That the pattern's being identified. >> Take data, turn into digital twins with intelligent things to say and expose that as APIs or as UI components. >> So that now the developers can go off and use whatever tools they want and just invoke the service through the API. >> Bingo, so that's right. So developers, if they're doing something, just hit digital twins. >> All right, so we've talked a couple. We've talked a little bit about the traffic example and mentioned being in an oil field. What are some of the other big impacts? As this thing gets rolling, what is it going to, what kind of problems is this going to allow us to solve? Not just one, but there's definitely going to be a network effect here, right? >> Sure, so the interesting thing about the edge world is that it's massively diverse. So even one cookie factory's different from another cookie factory in that they might have the same equipment, but they're in different places on planet Earth, may have different operators in everything else. So the data will be different in everything else. So the challenge in general with the edge environment has been that we've been very professional services centric people bring in (mumbles) people and try and solve a local problem and it's very expensive. SWIM has this opportunity to basically just show up, consume this gray data, and tell you real stuff without enormous amounts of semantic knowledge a priority. So we hae this ability to conquer this diversity problem, which is characteristic of the edge, and also come up with highly realistic and highly accurate models for this particular thing. I want to be very clear. The widget in chocolate factory A is exactly the same as the widget in chocolate factory B, but the models will be 100% different and totally (mumbles) at either place, because if the pipes go bang at 6 a.m. here, it's in the model. >> And SWIM has the opportunity to reach the 99.9% of data that currently is generated and immediately forgotten, because it's too expensive to store. It's too expensive to transport. And it's too expensive to build applications to use. >> We should talk about cost, because that's a great one. So if you wanted to solve the problem of predicting what the lights in Palo Alto are going to do for the next five minutes, that's heading towards 10 thousand dollars a month in AWS. SWIM will solve that problem for a tiny fraction, like less than a 100th of that, just on stranded CPU cycles lying around at the edge. And you have say, bandwidth and a whole bunch of things. >> Yeah, and that's a very important point, because the edge is, it's been around for a while. Operational technology. People have been doing this for a while, but not in a way that's naturally, easily programmable. You're bringing the technology that makes it easy to self-discover simply by utilizing whatever cycles and whatever data's there and putting a persistence, making it really simple for that to be accessed through an API, and ultimately, it creates a lot of options on what you can do with your devices in the future. Makes existing assets more valuable, because you have options in what you can do with it. >> If you look at the traffic example, it's the AWS scenario is $50 per month per insection. No one's going to do that. But if it's like a buck, I'm in. And you can do things, 'cause then it's worthwhile for UBER to hit that API. >> All right, so we got to wrap this up. So one way of thinking about it is, I'm thinking. And there's so many metaphors that one could invoke, but this is kind of like the teeth that are going to eat the real world. The software teeth that's going to eat the real world at the edge. >> So if I can leave with one thought, which is SWIM loosely stems from software and motion. And the idea is that teeth edge. You need to move the software to where the data is. You can't move the data to where the software is. The data is huge. It's immobile. And the quantities of data are staggering. You essentially have a world of spam bots out there. It's intractable. But if you move the software to where the data is, then the world's yours. >> One thing to note is that software's still data. It just happens to be extremely well organized data. So the choice is do you move all the not-particularly-well-organized data somewhere where it can operate or would you move the really well organized and compact? And information theory says move the most structured thing you possibly can and that's the application of the software itself. All right. Chris Sachs, founder and lead architect of SWIM. Simon Crosby, CTO of SWIM. Thank you very much for being on the Cube. Great conversation. >> Thanks for having us. >> Good luck. >> Enjoy. >> And once again, I'm Peter Burris. And thank you for participating in another Cube conversation with SWIM. Talk to you again soon.

>> Narrator: From theCUBE Studios in Palo Alto, in Boston bringing you data-driven insights from theCUBE and ETR. This is "Breaking Analysis" with Dave Vellante. >> The next 10 years of cloud, they're going to differ dramatically from the past decade. The early days of cloud, deployed virtualization of standard off-the-shelf components, X86 microprocessors, disk drives et cetera, to then scale out and build a large distributed system. The coming decade is going to see a much more data-centric, real-time, intelligent, call it even hyper-decentralized cloud that will comprise on-prem, hybrid, cross-cloud and edge workloads with a services layer that will obstruct the underlying complexity of the infrastructure which will also comprise much more custom and varied components. This was a key takeaway of the guests from theCUBE on Cloud, an event hosted by SiliconANGLE on theCUBE. Welcome to this week's Wikibon CUBE Insights Powered by ETR. In this episode, we'll summarize the findings of our recent event and extract the signal from our great guests with a couple of series and comments and clips from the show. CUBE on Cloud is our very first virtual editorial event. It was designed to bring together our community in an open forum. We ran the day on our 365 software platform and had a great lineup of CEOs, CIOs, data practitioners technologists. We had cloud experts, analysts and many opinion leaders all brought together in a day long series of sessions that we developed in order to unpack the future of cloud computing in the coming decade. Let me briefly frame up the conversation and then turn it over to some of our guests. First, we put forth our view of how modern cloud has evolved and where it's headed. This graphic that we're showing here, talks about the progression of cloud innovation over time. A cloud like many innovations, it started as a novelty. When AWS announced S3 in March of 2006, nobody in the vendor or user communities really even in the trade press really paid too much attention to it. Then later that year, Amazon announced EC2 and people started to think about a new model of computing. But it was largely tire kickers, bleeding-edge developers that took notice and really leaned in. Now the financial crisis of 2007 to 2009, really created what we call a cloud awakening and it put cloud on the radar of many CFOs. Shadow IT emerged within departments that wanted to take IT in bite-sized chunks and along with the CFO wanted to take it as OPEX versus CAPEX. And then I teach transformation that really took hold. We came out of the financial crisis and we've been on an 11-year cloud boom. And it doesn't look like it's going to stop anytime soon, cloud has really disrupted the on-prem model as we've reported and completely transformed IT. Ironically, the pandemic hit at the beginning of this decade, and created a mandate to go digital. And so it accelerated the industry transformation that we're highlighting here, which probably would have taken several more years to mature but overnight the forced March to digital happened. And it looks like it's here to stay. Now the next wave, we think we'll be much more about business or industry transformation. We're seeing the first glimpses of that. Holger Mueller of Constellation Research summed it up at our event very well I thought, he basically said the cloud is the big winner of COVID. Of course we know that now normally we talk about seven-year economic cycles. He said he was talking about for planning and investment cycles. Now we operate in seven-day cycles. The examples he gave where do we open or close the store? How do we pivot to support remote workers without the burden of CAPEX? And we think that the things listed on this chart are going to be front and center in the coming years, data AI, a fully digitized and intelligence stack that will support next gen disruptions in autos, manufacturing, finance, farming and virtually every industry where the system will expand to the edge. And the underlying infrastructure across physical locations will be hidden. Many issues remain, not the least of which is latency which we talked about at the event in quite some detail. So let's talk about how the Big 3 cloud players are going to participate in this next era. Well, in short, the consensus from the event was that the rich get richer. Let's take a look at some data. This chart shows our most recent estimates of IaaS and PaaS spending for the Big 3. And we're going to update this after earning season but there's a couple of points stand out. First, we want to make the point that combined the Big 3 now account for almost $80 billion of infrastructure spend last year. That $80 billion, was not all incremental (laughs) No it's caused consolidation and disruption in the on-prem data center business and within IT shops companies like Dell, HPE, IBM, Oracle many others have felt the heat and have had to respond with hybrid and cross cloud strategies. Second while it's true that Azure and GCP they appear to be growing faster than AWS. We don't know really the exact numbers, of course because only AWS provides a clean view of IaaS and passwords, Microsoft and Google. They kind of hide them all ball on their numbers which by the way, I don't blame them but they do leave breadcrumbs and clues on growth rates. And we have other means of estimating through surveys and the like, but it's undeniable Azure is closing the revenue gap on AWS. The third is that I like the fact that Azure and Google are growing faster than AWS. AWS is the only company by our estimates to grow its business sequentially last quarter. And in and of itself, that's not really enough important. What is significant is that because AWS is so large now at 45 billion, even at their slower growth rates it grows much more in absolute terms than its competitors. So we think AWS is going to keep its lead for some time. We think Microsoft and AWS will continue to lead the pack. You know, they might converge maybe it will be a 200 just race in terms of who's first who's second in terms of cloud revenue and how it's counted depending on what they count in their numbers. And Google look with its balance sheet and global network. It's going to play the long game and virtually everyone else with the exception of perhaps Alibaba is going to be secondary players on these platforms. Now this next graphic underscores that reality and kind of lays out the competitive landscape. What we're showing here is survey data from ETR of more than 1400 CIOs and IT buyers and on the vertical axis is Net Score which measures spending momentum on the horizontal axis is so-called Market Share which is a measure of pervasiveness in the data set. The key points are AWS and Microsoft look at it. They stand alone so far ahead of the pack. I mean, they really literally, it would have to fall down to lose their lead high spending velocity and large share of the market or the hallmarks of these two companies. And we don't think that's going to change anytime soon. Now, Google, even though it's far behind they have the financial strength to continue to position themselves as an alternative to AWS. And of course, an analytics specialist. So it will continue to grow, but it will be challenged. We think to catch up to the leaders. Now take a look at the hybrid zone where the field is playing. These are companies that have a large on-prem presence and have been forced to initiate a coherent cloud strategy. And of course, including multicloud. And we include Google in this so pack because they're behind and they have to take a differentiated approach relative to AWS, and maybe cozy up to some of these traditional enterprise vendors to help Google get to the enterprise. And you can see from the on-prem crowd, VMware Cloud on AWS is stands out as having some, some momentum as does Red Hat OpenShift, which is it's cloudy, but it's really sort of an ingredient it's not really broad IaaS specifically but it's a component of cloud VMware cloud which includes VCF or VMware Cloud Foundation. And even Dell's cloud. We would expect HPE with its GreenLake strategy. Its financials is shoring up, should be picking up momentum in the future in terms of what the customers of this survey consider cloud. And then of course you could see IBM and Oracle you're in the game, but they don't have the spending momentum and they don't have the CAPEX chops to compete with the hyperscalers IBM's cloud revenue actually dropped 7% last quarter. So that highlights the challenges that that company facing Oracle's cloud business is growing in the single digits. It's kind of up and down, but again underscores these two companies are really about migrating their software install basis to their captive clouds and as well for IBM, for example it's launched a financial cloud as a way to differentiate and not take AWS head-on an infrastructure as a service. The bottom line is that other than the Big 3 in Alibaba the rest of the pack will be plugging into hybridizing and cross-clouding those platforms. And there are definitely opportunities there specifically related to creating that abstraction layer that we talked about earlier and hiding that underlying complexity and importantly creating incremental value good examples, snowfallLike what snowflake is doing with its data cloud, what the data protection guys are doing. A company like Loomio is headed in that direction as are others. So, you keep an eye on that and think about where the white space is and where the value can be across-clouds. That's where the opportunity is. So let's see, what is this all going to look like? How does the cube community think it's going to unfold? Let's hear from theCUBE Guests and theCUBE on Cloud speakers and some of those highlights. Now, unfortunately we don't have time to show you clips from every speaker. We are like 10-plus hours of video content but we've tried to pull together some comments that summarize the sentiment from the community. So I'm going to have John Furrier briefly explain what theCUBE on Cloud is all about and then let the guests speak for themselves. After John, Pradeep Sindhu is going to give a nice technical overview of how the cloud was built out and what's changing in the future. I'll give you a hint it has to do with data. And then speaking of data, Mai-Lan Bukovec, who heads up AWS is storage portfolio. She'll explain how she views the coming changes in cloud and how they look at storage. Again, no surprise, it's all about data. Now, one of the themes that you'll hear from guests is the notion of a distributed cloud model. And Zhamak Deghani, he was a data architect. She'll explain her view of the future of data architectures. We also have thoughts from analysts like Zeus Karavalla and Maribel Lopez, and some comments from both Microsoft and Google to compliment AWS's view of the world. In fact, we asked JG Chirapurath from Microsoft to comment on the common narrative that Microsoft products are not best-to-breed. They put out a one dot O and then they get better, or sometimes people say, well, they're just good enough. So we'll see what his response is to that. And Paul Gillin asks, Amit Zavery of Google his thoughts on the cloud leaderboard and how Google thinks about their third-place position. Dheeraj Pandey gives his perspective on how technology has progressed and been miniaturized over time. And what's coming in the future. And then Simon Crosby gives us a framework to think about the edge as the most logical opportunity to process data not necessarily a physical place. And this was echoed by John Roese, and Chris Wolf to experience CTOs who went into some great depth on this topic. Unfortunately, I don't have the clips of those two but their comments can be found on the CTO power panel the technical edge it's called that's the segment at theCUBE on Cloud events site which we'll share the URL later. Now, the highlight reel ends with CEO Joni Klippert she talks about the changes in securing the cloud from a developer angle. And finally, we wrap up with a CIO perspective, Dan Sheehan. He provides some practical advice on building on his experience as a CIO, COO and CTO specifically how do you as a business technology leader deal with the rapid pace of change and still be able to drive business results? Okay, so let's now hear from the community please run the highlights. >> Well, I think one of the things we talked about COVID is the personal impact to me but other people as well one of the things that people are craving right now is information, factual information, truth, textures that we call it. But here this event for us Dave is our first inaugural editorial event. Rob, both Kristen Nicole the entire cube team, SiliconANGLE on theCUBE we're really trying to put together more of a cadence. We're going to do more of these events where we can put out and feature the best people in our community that have great fresh voices. You know, we do interview the big names Andy Jassy, Michael Dell, the billionaires of people making things happen, but it's often the people under them that are the real Newsmakers. >> If you look at the architecture of cloud data centers the single most important invention was scale-out. Scale-out of identical or near identical servers all connected to a standard IP ethernet network. That's the architecture. Now the building blocks of this architecture is ethernet switches which make up the network, IP ethernet switches. And then the server is all built using general purpose x86 CPU's with DRAM, with SSD, with hard drives all connected to inside the CPU. Now, the fact that you scale these server nodes as they're called out was very, very important in addressing the problem of how do you build very large scale infrastructure using general purpose compute but this architecture, Dave is a compute centric architecture. And the reason it's a compute centric architecture is if you open this, is server node. What you see is a connection to the network typically with a simple network interface card. And then you have CPU's which are in the middle of the action. Not only are the CPU's processing the application workload but they're processing all of the IO workload what we call data centric workload. And so when you connect SSDs and hard drives and GPU is everything to the CPU, as well as to the network you can now imagine that the CPU is doing two functions. It's running the applications but it's also playing traffic cop for the IO. So every IO has to go to the CPU and you're executing instructions typically in the operating system. And you're interrupting the CPU many many millions of times a second. Now general purpose CPU and the architecture of the CPU's was never designed to play traffic cop because the traffic cop function is a function that requires you to be interrupted very, very frequently. So it's critical that in this new architecture where does a lot of data, a lot of these stress traffic the percentage of workload, which is data centric has gone from maybe one to 2% to 30 to 40%. >> The path to innovation is paved by data. If you don't have data, you don't have machine learning you don't have the next generation of analytics applications that helps you chart a path forward into a world that seems to be changing every week. And so in order to have that insight in order to have that predictive forecasting that every company needs, regardless of what industry that you're in today, it all starts from data. And I think the key shift that I've seen is how customers are thinking about that data, about being instantly usable. Whereas in the past, it might've been a backup. Now it's part of a data Lake. And if you can bring that data into a data lake you can have not just analytics or machine learning or auditing applications it's really what does your application do for your business and how can it take advantage of that vast amount of shared data set in your business? >> We are actually moving towards decentralization if we think today, like if it let's move data aside if we said is the only way web would work the only way we get access to various applications on the web or pages to centralize it We would laugh at that idea. But for some reason we don't question that when it comes to data, right? So I think it's time to embrace the complexity that comes with the growth of number of sources, the proliferation of sources and consumptions models, embrace the distribution of sources of data that they're not just within one part of organization. They're not just within even bounds of organizations that are beyond the bounds of organization. And then look back and say, okay, if that's the trend of our industry in general, given the fabric of compensation and data that we put in, you know, globally in place then how the architecture and technology and organizational structure incentives need to move to embrace that complexity. And to me that requires a paradigm shift a full stack from how we organize our organizations how we organize our teams, how we put a technology in place to look at it from a decentralized angle. >> I actually think we're in the midst of the transition to what's called a distributed cloud, where if you look at modernized cloud apps today they're actually made up of services from different clouds. And also distributed edge locations. And that's going to have a pretty profound impact on the way we go vast. >> We wake up every day, worrying about our customer and worrying about the customer condition and to absolutely make sure we dealt with the best in the first attempt that we do. So when you take the plethora of products we've dealt with in Azure, be it Azure SQL be it Azure cosmos DB, Synapse, Azure Databricks, which we did in partnership with Databricks Azure machine learning. And recently when we sort of offered the world's first comprehensive data governance solution and Azure overview, I would, I would humbly submit to you that we are leading the way. >> How important are rankings within the Google cloud team or are you focused mainly more on growth and just consistency? >> No, I don't think again, I'm not worried about we are not focused on ranking or any of that stuff. Typically I think we are worried about making sure customers are satisfied and the adding more and more customers. So if you look at the volume of customers we are signing up a lot of the large deals we did doing. If you look at the announcement we've made over the last year has been tremendous momentum around that. >> The thing that is really interesting about where we have been versus where we're going is we spend a lot of time talking about virtualizing hardware and moving that around. And what does that look like? And creating that as more of a software paradigm. And the thing we're talking about now is what does cloud as an operating model look like? What is the manageability of that? What is the security of that? What, you know, we've talked a lot about containers and moving into different, DevSecOps and all those different trends that we've been talking about. Like now we're doing them. So we've only gotten to the first crank of that. And I think every technology vendor we talked to now has to address how are they are going to do a highly distributed management insecurity landscape? Like, what are they going to layer on top of that? Because it's not just about, oh, I've taken a rack of something, server storage, compute, and virtualized it. I know have to create a new operating model around it in a way we're almost redoing what the OSI stack looks like and what the software and solutions are for that. >> And the whole idea of we in every recession we make things smaller. You know, in 91 we said we're going to go away from mainframes into Unix servers. And we made the unit of compute smaller. Then in the year, 2000 windows the next bubble burst and the recession afterwards we moved from Unix servers to Wintel windows and Intel x86 and eventually Linux as well. Again, we made things smaller going from million dollar servers to $5,000 servers, shorter lib servers. And that's what we did in 2008, 2009. I said, look, we don't even need to buy servers. We can do things with virtual machines which are servers that are an incarnation in the digital world. There's nothing in the physical world that actually even lives but we made it even smaller. And now with cloud in the last three, four years and what will happen in this coming decade. They're going to make it even smaller not just in space, which is size, with functions and containers and virtual machines, but also in time. >> So I think the right way to think about edges where can you reasonably process the data? And it obviously makes sense to process data at the first opportunity you have but much data is encrypted between the original device say and the application. And so edge as a place doesn't make as much sense as edge as an opportunity to decrypt and analyze it in the care. >> When I think of Shift-left, I think of that Mobius that we all look at all of the time and how we deliver and like plan, write code, deliver software, and then manage it, monitor it, right like that entire DevOps workflow. And today, when we think about where security lives, it either is a blocker to deploying production or most commonly it lives long after code has been deployed to production. And there's a security team constantly playing catch up trying to ensure that the development team whose job is to deliver value to their customers quickly, right? Deploy as fast as we can as many great customer facing features. They're then looking at it months after software has been deployed and then hurrying and trying to assess where the bugs are and trying to get that information back to software developers so that they can fix those issues. Shifting left to me means software engineers are finding those bugs as they're writing code or in the CIC CD pipeline long before code has been deployed to production. >> During this for quite a while now, it still comes down to the people. I can get the technology to do what it needs to do as long as they have the right requirements. So that goes back to people making sure we have the partnership that goes back to leadership and the people and then the change management aspects right out of the gate, you should be worrying about how this change is going to be how it's going to affect, and then the adoption and an engagement, because adoption is critical because you can go create the best thing you think from a technology perspective. But if it doesn't get used correctly, it's not worth the investment. So I agree, what is a digital transformation or innovation? It still comes down to understand the business model and injecting and utilizing technology to grow our reduce costs, grow the business or reduce costs. >> Okay, so look, there's so much other content on theCUBE on Cloud events site we'll put the link in the description below. We have other CEOs like Kathy Southwick and Ellen Nance. We have the CIO of UI path. Daniel Dienes talks about automation in the cloud and Appenzell from Anaplan. And a plan is not her company. By the way, Dave Humphrey from Bain also talks about his $750 million investment in Nutanix. Interesting, Rachel Stevens from red monk talks about the future of software development in the cloud and CTO, Hillary Hunter talks about the cloud going vertical into financial services. And of course, John Furrier and I along with special guests like Sergeant Joe Hall share our take on key trends, data and perspectives. So right here, you see the coupon cloud. There's a URL, check it out again. We'll, we'll pop this URL in the description of the video. So there's some great content there. I want to thank everybody who participated and thank you for watching this special episode of theCUBE Insights Powered by ETR. This is Dave Vellante and I'd appreciate any feedback you might have on how we can deliver better event content for you in the future. We'll be doing a number of these and we look forward to your participation and feedback. Thank you, all right, take care, we'll see you next time. (upbeat music)

>>from around the globe. It's the Cube presenting Cuban cloud brought to you by silicon angle, everybody to Cuban cloud. My name is Dave Volonte, and I'll be here throughout the day with my co host, John Ferrier, who was quarantined in an undisclosed location in California. He's all good. Don't worry. Just precautionary. John, how are you doing? >>Hey, great to see you. John. Quarantine. My youngest daughter had covitz, so contact tracing. I was negative in quarantine at a friend's location. All good. >>Well, we wish you the best. Yeah, well, right. I mean, you know what's it like, John? I mean, you're away from your family. Your basically shut in, right? I mean, you go out for a walk, but you're really not in any contact with anybody. >>Correct? Yeah. I mean, basically just isolation, Um, pretty much what everyone's been kind of living on, kind of suffering through, but hopefully the vaccines are being distributed. You know, one of the things we talked about it reinvent the Amazon's cloud conference. Was the vaccine on, but just the whole workflow around that it's gonna get better. It's kind of really sucky. Here in the California area, they haven't done a good job, a lot of criticism around, how that's rolling out. And, you know, Amazon is now offering to help now that there's a new regime in the U. S. Government S o. You know, something to talk about, But certainly this has been a terrible time for Cove it and everyone in the deaths involved. But it's it's essentially pulled back the covers, if you will, on technology and you're seeing everything. Society. In fact, um, well, that's big tech MIT disinformation campaigns. All these vulnerabilities and cyber, um, accelerated digital transformation. We'll talk about a lot today, but yeah, it's totally changed the world. And I think we're in a new generation. I think this is a real inflection point, Dave. You know, modern society and the geo political impact of this is significant. You know, one of the benefits of being quarantined you'd be hanging out on these clubhouse APS, uh, late at night, listening to experts talk about what's going on, and it's interesting what's happening with with things like water and, you know, the island of Taiwan and China and U. S. Sovereignty, data, sovereignty, misinformation. So much going on to talk about. And, uh, meanwhile, companies like Mark injuries in BC firm starting a media company. What's going on? Hell freezing over. So >>we're gonna be talking about a lot of that stuff today. I mean, Cuba on cloud. It's our very first virtual editorial event we're trying to do is bring together our community. It's a it's an open forum and we're we're running the day on our 3 65 software platform. So we got a great lineup. We got CEO Seo's data Practitioners. We got a hard core technologies coming in, cloud experts, investors. We got some analysts coming in and we're creating this day long Siri's. And we've got a number of sessions that we've developed and we're gonna unpack. The future of Cloud computing in the coming decade is, John said, we're gonna talk about some of the public policy new administration. What does that mean for tech and for big tech in General? John, what can you add to that? >>Well, I think one of the things that we talked about Cove in this personal impact to me but other people as well. One of the things that people are craving right now is information factual information, truth texture that we call it. But hear this event for us, Davis, our first inaugural editorial event. Robbo, Kristen, Nicole, the entire Cube team Silicon angle, really trying to put together Morva cadence we're gonna doom or of these events where we can put out feature the best people in our community that have great fresh voices. You know, we do interview the big names Andy Jassy, Michael Dell, the billionaires with people making things happen. But it's often the people under there that are the rial newsmakers amid savory, for instance, that Google one of the most impressive technical people, he's gotta talk. He's gonna present democratization of software development in many Mawr riel people making things happen. And I think there's a communal element. We're going to do more of these. Obviously, we have, uh, no events to go to with the Cube. So we have the cube virtual software that we have been building and over years and now perfecting and we're gonna introduce that we're gonna put it to work, their dog footing it. We're gonna put that software toe work. We're gonna do a lot mawr virtual events like this Cuban cloud Cuban startup Cuban raising money. Cuban healthcare, Cuban venture capital. Always think we could do anything. Question is, what's the right story? What's the most important stories? Who's telling it and increase the aperture of the lens of the industry that we have and and expose that and fastest possible. That's what this software, you'll see more of it. So it's super exciting. We're gonna add new features like pulling people up on stage, Um, kind of bring on the clubhouse vibe and more of a community interaction with people to meet each other, and we'll roll those out. But the goal here is to just showcase it's cloud story in a way from people that are living it and providing value. So enjoy the day is gonna be chock full of presentations. We're gonna have moderated chat in these sessions, so it's an all day event so people can come in, drop out, and also that's everything's on demand immediately after the time slot. But you >>want to >>participate, come into the time slot into the cube room or breakout session. Whatever you wanna call it, it's a cube room, and the people in there chatting and having a watch party. So >>when you're in that home page when you're watching, there's a hero video there. Beneath that, there's a calendar, and you'll see that red line is that red horizontal line of vertical line is rather, it's a linear clock that will show you where we are in the day. If you click on any one of those sessions that will take you into the chat, we'll take you through those in a moment and share with you some of the guests that we have upcoming and and take you through the day what I wanted to do. John is trying to set the stage for the conversations that folks are gonna here today. And to do that, I wanna ask the guys to bring up a graphic. And I want to talk to you, John, about the progression of cloud over time and maybe go back to the beginning and review the evolution of cloud and then really talk a little bit about where we think it Z headed. So, guys, if you bring up that graphic when a W S announced s three, it was March of 2000 and six. And as you recall, John you know, nobody really. In the vendor and user community. They didn't really pay too much attention to that. And then later that year, in August, it announced E C two people really started. They started to think about a new model of computing, but they were largely, you know, chicken tires. And it was kind of bleeding edge developers that really leaned in. Um what? What were you thinking at the time? When when you saw, uh, s three e c to this retail company coming into the tech world? >>I mean, I thought it was totally crap. I'm like, this is terrible. But then at that time, I was thinking working on I was in between kind of start ups and I didn't have a lot of seed funding. And then I realized the C two was freaking awesome. But I'm like, Holy shit, this is really great because I don't need to pay a lot of cash, the Provisional Data center, or get a server. Or, you know, at that time, state of the art startup move was to buy a super micro box or some sort of power server. Um, it was well past the whole proprietary thing. But you have to assemble probably anyone with 5 to 8 grand box and go in, and we'll put a couple ghetto rack, which is basically, uh, you know, you put it into some coasting location. It's like with everybody else in the tech ghetto of hosting, still paying monthly fees and then maintaining it and provisioning that's just to get started. And then Amazon was just really easy. And then from there you just It was just awesome. I just knew Amazon would be great. They had a lot of things that they had to fix. You know, custom domains and user interface Council got better and better, but it was awesome. >>Well, what we really saw the cloud take hold from my perspective anyway, was the financial crisis in, you know, 709 It put cloud on the radar of a number of CFOs and, of course, shadow I T departments. They wanted to get stuff done and and take I t in in in, ah, pecs, bite sized chunks. So it really was. There's cloud awakening and we came out of that financial crisis, and this we're now in this 10 year plus boom um, you know, notwithstanding obviously the economic crisis with cove it. But much of it was powered by the cloud in the decade. I would say it was really about I t transformation. And it kind of ironic, if you will, because the pandemic it hits at the beginning of this decade, >>and it >>creates this mandate to go digital. So you've you've said a lot. John has pulled forward. It's accelerated this industry transformation. Everybody talks about that, but and we've highlighted it here in this graphic. It probably would have taken several more years to mature. But overnight you had this forced march to digital. And if you weren't a digital business, you were kind of out of business. And and so it's sort of here to stay. How do you see >>You >>know what this evolution and what we can expect in the coming decades? E think it's safe to say the last 10 years defined by you know, I t transformation. That's not gonna be the same in the coming years. How do you see it? >>It's interesting. I think the big tech companies are on, but I think this past election, the United States shows um, the power that technology has. And if you look at some of the main trends in the enterprise specifically around what clouds accelerating, I call the second wave of innovations coming where, um, it's different. It's not what people expect. Its edge edge computing, for instance, has talked about a lot. But industrial i o t. Is really where we've had a lot of problems lately in terms of hacks and malware and just just overall vulnerabilities, whether it's supply chain vulnerabilities, toe actual disinformation, you know, you know, vulnerabilities inside these networks s I think this network effects, it's gonna be a huge thing. I think the impact that tech will have on society and global society geopolitical things gonna be also another one. Um, I think the modern application development of how applications were written with data, you know, we always been saying this day from the beginning of the Cube data is his integral part of the development process. And I think more than ever, when you think about cloud and edge and this distributed computing paradigm, that cloud is now going next level with is the software and how it's written will be different. You gotta handle things like, where's the compute component? Is it gonna be at the edge with all the server chips, innovations that Amazon apple intel of doing, you're gonna have compute right at the edge, industrial and kind of human edge. How does that work? What's Leighton see to that? It's it really is an edge game. So to me, software has to be written holistically in a system's impact on the way. Now that's not necessarily nude in the computer science and in the tech field, it's just gonna be deployed differently. So that's a complete rewrite, in my opinion of the software applications. Which is why you're seeing Amazon Google VM Ware really pushing Cooper Netease and these service messes in the micro Services because super critical of this technology become smarter, automated, autonomous. And that's completely different paradigm in the old full stack developer, you know, kind of model. You know, the full stack developer, his ancient. There's no such thing as a full stack developer anymore, in my opinion, because it's a half a stack because the cloud takes up the other half. But no one wants to be called the half stack developer because it doesn't sound as good as Full Stack, but really Cloud has eliminated the technology complexity of what a full stack developer used to dio. Now you can manage it and do things with it, so you know, there's some work to done, but the heavy lifting but taking care of it's the top of the stack that I think is gonna be a really critical component. >>Yeah, and that that sort of automation and machine intelligence layer is really at the top of the stack. This this thing becomes ubiquitous, and we now start to build businesses and new processes on top of it. I wanna I wanna take a look at the Big Three and guys, Can we bring up the other The next graphic, which is an estimate of what the revenue looks like for the for the Big three. And John, this is I asked and past spend for the Big Three Cloud players. And it's It's an estimate that we're gonna update after earning seasons, and I wanna point a couple things out here. First is if you look at the combined revenue production of the Big Three last year, it's almost 80 billion in infrastructure spend. I mean, think about that. That Z was that incremental spend? No. It really has caused a lot of consolidation in the on Prem data center business for guys like Dell. And, you know, um, see, now, part of the LHP split up IBM Oracle. I mean, it's etcetera. They've all felt this sea change, and they had to respond to it. I think the second thing is you can see on this data. Um, it's true that azure and G C P they seem to be growing faster than a W s. We don't know the exact numbers >>because >>A W S is the only company that really provides a clean view of i s and pass. Whereas Microsoft and Google, they kind of hide the ball in their numbers. I mean, I don't blame them because they're behind, but they do leave breadcrumbs and clues about growth rates and so forth. And so we have other means of estimating, but it's it's undeniable that azure is catching up. I mean, it's still quite distance the third thing, and before I want to get your input here, John is this is nuanced. But despite the fact that Azure and Google the growing faster than a W s. You can see those growth rates. A W s I'll call this out is the only company by our estimates that grew its business sequentially last quarter. Now, in and of itself, that's not significant. But what is significant is because AWS is so large there $45 billion last year, even if the slower growth rates it's able to grow mawr and absolute terms than its competitors, who are basically flat to down sequentially by our estimates. Eso So that's something that I think is important to point out. Everybody focuses on the growth rates, but it's you gotta look at also the absolute dollars and, well, nonetheless, Microsoft in particular, they're they're closing the gap steadily, and and we should talk more about the competitive dynamics. But I'd love to get your take on on all this, John. >>Well, I mean, the clouds are gonna win right now. Big time with the one the political climate is gonna be favoring Big check. But more importantly, with just talking about covert impact and celebrating the digital transformation is gonna create a massive rising tide. It's already happening. It's happening it's happening. And again, this shift in programming, uh, models are gonna really kinda accelerating, create new great growth. So there's no doubt in my mind of all three you're gonna win big, uh, in the future, they're just different, You know, the way they're going to market position themselves, they have to be. Google has to be a little bit different than Amazon because they're smaller and they also have different capabilities, then trying to catch up. So if you're Google or Microsoft, you have to have a competitive strategy to decide. How do I wanna ride the tide If you will put the rising tide? Well, if I'm Amazon, I mean, if I'm Microsoft and Google, I'm not going to try to go frontal and try to copy Amazon because Amazon is just pounding lead of features and scale and they're different. They were, I would say, take advantage of the first mover of pure public cloud. They really awesome. It passed and I, as they've integrated in Gardner, now reports and integrated I as and passed components. So Gardner finally got their act together and said, Hey, this is really one thing. SAS is completely different animal now Microsoft Super Smart because they I think they played the right card. They have a huge installed base converted to keep office 3 65 and move sequel server and all their core jewels into the cloud as fast as possible, clarified while filling in the gaps on the product side to be cloud. So you know, as you're doing trends job, they're just it's just pedal as fast as you can. But Microsoft is really in. The strategy is just go faster trying. Keep pedaling fast, get the features, feature velocity and try to make it high quality. Google is a little bit different. They have a little power base in terms of their network of strong, and they have a lot of other big data capabilities, so they have to use those to their advantage. So there is. There is there is competitive strategy game application happening with these companies. It's not like apples, the apples, In my opinion, it never has been, and I think that's funny that people talk about it that way. >>Well, you're bringing up some great points. I want guys bring up the next graphic because a lot of things that John just said are really relevant here. And what we're showing is that's a survey. Data from E. T. R R Data partners, like 1400 plus CEOs and I T buyers and on the vertical axis is this thing called Net score, which is a measure of spending momentum. And the horizontal axis is is what's called market share. It's a measure of the pervasiveness or, you know, number of mentions in the data set. There's a couple of key points I wanna I wanna pick up on relative to what John just said. So you see A W S and Microsoft? They stand alone. I mean, they're the hyper scale er's. They're far ahead of the pack and frankly, they have fall down, toe, lose their lead. They spend a lot on Capex. They got the flywheel effects going. They got both spending velocity and large market shares, and so, but they're taking a different approach. John, you're right there living off of their SAS, the state, their software state, Andi, they're they're building that in to their cloud. So they got their sort of a captive base of Microsoft customers. So they've got that advantage. They also as we'll hear from from Microsoft today. They they're building mawr abstraction layers. Andy Jassy has said We don't wanna be in that abstraction layer business. We wanna have access to those, you know, fine grain primitives and eso at an AP level. So so we can move fast with the market. But but But so those air sort of different philosophies, John? >>Yeah. I mean, you know, people who know me know that I love Amazon. I think their product is superior at many levels on in its way that that has advantages again. They have a great sass and ecosystem. They don't really have their own SAS play, although they're trying to add some stuff on. I've been kind of critical of Microsoft in the past, but one thing I'm not critical of Microsoft, and people can get this wrong in the marketplace. Actually, in the journalism world and also in just some other analysts, Microsoft has always had large scale eso to say that Microsoft never had scale on that Amazon owned the monopoly on our franchise on scales wrong. Microsoft had scale from day one. Their business was always large scale global. They've always had infrastructure with MSN and their search and the distributive how they distribute browsers and multiple countries. Remember they had the lock on the operating system and the browser for until the government stepped in in 1997. And since 1997 Microsoft never ever not invested in infrastructure and scale. So that whole premise that they don't compete well there is wrong. And I think that chart demonstrates that there, in there in the hyper scale leadership category, hands down the question that I have. Is that there not as good and making that scale integrate in because they have that legacy cards. This is the classic innovator's dilemma. Clay Christensen, right? So I think they're doing a good job. I think their strategy sound. They're moving as fast as they can. But then you know they're not gonna come out and say We don't have the best cloud. Um, that's not a marketing strategy. Have to kind of hide in this and get better and then double down on where they're winning, which is. Clients are converting from their legacy at the speed of Microsoft, and they have a huge client base, So that's why they're stopping so high That's why they're so good. >>Well, I'm gonna I'm gonna give you a little preview. I talked to gear up your f Who's gonna come on today and you'll see I I asked him because the criticism of Microsoft is they're, you know, they're just good enough. And so I asked him, Are you better than good enough? You know, those are fighting words if you're inside of Microsoft, but so you'll you'll have to wait to see his answer. Now, if you guys, if you could bring that that graphic back up I wanted to get into the hybrid zone. You know where the field is. Always got >>some questions coming in on chat, Dave. So we'll get to those >>great Awesome. So just just real quick Here you see this hybrid zone, this the field is bunched up, and the other companies who have a large on Prem presence and have been forced to initiate some kind of coherent cloud strategy included. There is Michael Michael, multi Cloud, and Google's there, too, because they're far behind and they got to take a different approach than a W s. But as you can see, so there's some real progress here. VM ware cloud on AWS stands out, as does red hat open shift. You got VM Ware Cloud, which is a VCF Cloud Foundation, even Dell's cloud. And you'd expect HP with Green Lake to be picking up momentum in the future quarters. And you've got IBM and Oracle, which there you go with the innovator's dilemma. But there, at least in the cloud game, and we can talk about that. But so, John, you know, to your point, you've gotta have different strategies. You're you're not going to take out the big too. So you gotta play, connect your print your on Prem to your cloud, your hybrid multi cloud and try to create new opportunities and new value there. >>Yeah, I mean, I think we'll get to the question, but just that point. I think this Zeri Chen's come on the Cube many times. We're trying to get him to come on lunch today with Features startup, but he's always said on the Q B is a V C at Greylock great firm. Jerry's Cloud genius. He's been there, but he made a point many, many years ago. It's not a winner. Take all the winner. Take most, and the Big Three maybe put four or five in there. We'll take most of the markets here. But I think one of the things that people are missing and aren't talking about Dave is that there's going to be a second tier cloud, large scale model. I don't want to say tear to cloud. It's coming to sound like a sub sub cloud, but a new category of cloud on cloud, right? So meaning if you get a snowflake, did I think this is a tale? Sign to what's coming. VM Ware Cloud is a native has had huge success, mainly because Amazon is essentially enabling them to be successful. So I think is going to be a wave of a more of a channel model of indirect cloud build out where companies like the Cube, potentially for media or others, will build clouds on top of the cloud. So if Google, Microsoft and Amazon, whoever is the first one to really enable that okay, we'll do extremely well because that means you can compete with their scale and create differentiation on top. So what snowflake did is all on Amazon now. They kind of should go to azure because it's, you know, politically correct that have multiple clouds and distribution and business model shifts. But to get that kind of performance they just wrote on Amazon. So there's nothing wrong with that. Because you're getting paid is variable. It's cap ex op X nice categorization. So I think that's the way that we're watching. I think it's super valuable, I think will create some surprises in terms of who might come out of the woodwork on be a leader in a category. Well, >>your timing is perfect, John and we do have some questions in the chat. But before we get to that, I want to bring in Sargi Joe Hall, who's a contributor to to our community. Sargi. Can you hear us? All right, so we got, uh, while >>bringing in Sarpy. Let's go down from the questions. So the first question, Um, we'll still we'll get the student second. The first question. But Ronald ask, Can a vendor in 2021 exist without a hybrid cloud story? Well, story and capabilities. Yes, they could live with. They have to have a story. >>Well, And if they don't own a public cloud? No. No, they absolutely cannot. Uh hey, Sergey. How you doing, man? Good to see you. So, folks, let me let me bring in Sergeant Kohala. He's a He's a cloud architect. He's a practitioner, He's worked in as a technologist. And there's a frequent guest on on the Cube. Good to see you, my friend. Thanks for taking the time with us. >>And good to see you guys to >>us. So we were kind of riffing on the competitive landscape we got. We got so much to talk about this, like, it's a number of questions coming in. Um, but Sargi we wanna talk about you know, what's happening here in Cloud Land? Let's get right into it. I mean, what do you guys see? I mean, we got yesterday. New regime, new inaug inauguration. Do you do you expect public policy? You'll start with you Sargi to have What kind of effect do you think public policy will have on, you know, cloud generally specifically, the big tech companies, the tech lash. Is it gonna be more of the same? Or do you see a big difference coming? >>I think that there will be some changing narrative. I believe on that. is mainly, um, from the regulators side. A lot has happened in one month, right? So people, I think are losing faith in high tech in a certain way. I mean, it doesn't, uh, e think it matters with camp. You belong to left or right kind of thing. Right? But parlor getting booted out from Italy s. I think that was huge. Um, like, how do you know that if a cloud provider will not boot you out? Um, like, what is that line where you draw the line? What are the rules? I think that discussion has to take place. Another thing which has happened in the last 23 months is is the solar winds hack, right? So not us not sort acknowledging that I was Russia and then wish you watching it now, new administration might have a different sort of Boston on that. I think that's huge. I think public public private partnership in security arena will emerge this year. We have to address that. Yeah, I think it's not changing. Uh, >>economics economy >>will change gradually. You know, we're coming out off pandemic. The money is still cheap on debt will not be cheap. for long. I think m and a activity really will pick up. So those are my sort of high level, Uh, >>thank you. I wanna come back to them. And because there's a question that chat about him in a But, John, how do you see it? Do you think Amazon and Google on a slippery slope booting parlor off? I mean, how do they adjudicate between? Well, what's happening in parlor? Uh, anything could happen on clubhouse. Who knows? I mean, can you use a I to find that stuff? >>Well, that's I mean, the Amazons, right? Hiding right there bunkered in right now from that bad, bad situation. Because again, like people we said Amazon, these all three cloud players win in the current environment. Okay, Who wins with the U. S. With the way we are China, Russia, cloud players. Okay, let's face it, that's the reality. So if I wanted to reset the world stage, you know what better way than the, you know, change over the United States economy, put people out of work, make people scared, and then reset the entire global landscape and control all with cash? That's, you know, conspiracy theory. >>So you see the riches, you see the riches, get the rich, get richer. >>Yeah, well, that's well, that's that. That's kind of what's happening, right? So if you start getting into this idea that you can't actually have an app on site because the reason now I'm not gonna I don't know the particular parlor, but apparently there was a reason. But this is dangerous, right? So what? What that's gonna do is and whether it's right or wrong or not, whether political opinion is it means that they were essentially taken offline by people that weren't voted for that. Weren't that when people didn't vote for So that's not a democracy, right? So that's that's a different kind of regime. What it's also going to do is you also have this groundswell of decentralized thinking, right. So you have a whole wave of crypto and decentralized, um, cyber punks out there who want to decentralize it. So all of this stuff in January has created a huge counterculture, and I had predicted this so many times in the Cube. David counterculture is coming and and you already have this kind of counterculture between centralized and decentralized thinking and so I think the Amazon's move is dangerous at a fundamental level. Because if you can't get it, if you can't get buy domain names and you're completely blackballed by by organized players, that's a Mafia, in my opinion. So, uh, and that and it's also fuels the decentralized move because people say, Hey, if that could be done to them, it could be done to me. Just the fact that it could be done will promote a swing in the other direction. I >>mean, independent of of, you know, again, somebody said your political views. I mean Parlor would say, Hey, we're trying to clean this stuff up now. Maybe they didn't do it fast enough, but you think about how new parlor is. You think about the early days of Twitter and Facebook, so they were sort of at a disadvantage. Trying to >>have it was it was partly was what it was. It was a right wing stand up job of standing up something quick. Their security was terrible. If you look at me and Cory Quinn on be great to have him, and he did a great analysis on this, because if you look the lawsuit was just terrible. Security was just a half, asshole. >>Well, and the experience was horrible. I mean, it's not It was not a great app, but But, like you said, it was a quick stew. Hand up, you know, for an agenda. But nonetheless, you know, to start, get to your point earlier. It's like, you know, Are they gonna, you know, shut me down? If I say something that's, you know, out of line, or how do I control that? >>Yeah, I remember, like, 2019, we involved closing sort of remarks. I was there. I was saying that these companies are gonna be too big to fail. And also, they're too big for other nations to do business with. In a way, I think MNCs are running the show worldwide. They're running the government's. They are way. Have seen the proof of that in us this year. Late last year and this year, um, Twitter last night blocked Chinese Ambassador E in us. Um, from there, you know, platform last night and I was like, What? What's going on? So, like, we used to we used to say, like the Chinese company, tech companies are in bed with the Chinese government. Right. Remember that? And now and now, Actually, I think Chinese people can say the same thing about us companies. Uh, it's not a good thing. >>Well, let's >>get some question. >>Let's get some questions from the chat. Yeah. Thank you. One is on M and a subject you mentioned them in a Who do you see is possible emanate targets. I mean, I could throw a couple out there. Um, you know, some of the cdn players, maybe aka my You know, I like I like Hashi Corp. I think they're doing some really interesting things. What do you see? >>Nothing. Hashi Corp. And anybody who's doing things in the periphery is a candidate for many by the big guys, you know, by the hyper scholars and number two tier two or five hyper scholars. Right. Uh, that's why sales forces of the world and stuff like that. Um, some some companies, which I thought there will be a target, Sort of. I mean, they target they're getting too big, because off their evaluations, I think how she Corpuz one, um, >>and >>their bunch in the networking space. Uh, well, Tara, if I say the right that was acquired by at five this week, this week or last week, Actually, last week for $500 million. Um, I know they're founder. So, like I found that, Yeah, there's a lot going on on the on the network side on the anything to do with data. Uh, that those air too hard areas in the cloud arena >>data, data protection, John, any any anything you could adhere. >>And I think I mean, I think ej ej is gonna be where the gaps are. And I think m and a activity is gonna be where again, the bigger too big to fail would agree with you on that one. But we're gonna look at white Spaces and say a white space for Amazon is like a monster space for a start up. Right? So you're gonna have these huge white spaces opportunities, and I think it's gonna be an M and a opportunity big time start ups to get bought in. Given the speed on, I think you're gonna see it around databases and around some of these new service meshes and micro services. I mean, >>they there's a There's a question here, somebody's that dons asking why is Google who has the most pervasive tech infrastructure on the planet. Not at the same level of other to hyper scale is I'll give you my two cents is because it took him a long time to get their heads out of their ads. I wrote a piece of around that a while ago on they just they figured out how to learn the enterprise. I mean, John, you've made this point a number of times, but they just and I got a late start. >>Yeah, they're adding a lot of people. If you look at their who their hiring on the Google Cloud, they're adding a lot of enterprise chops in there. They realized this years ago, and we've talked to many of the top leaders, although Curry and hasn't yet sit down with us. Um, don't know what he's hiding or waiting for, but they're clearly not geared up to chicken Pete. You can see it with some some of the things that they're doing, but I mean competed the level of Amazon, but they have strength and they're playing their strength, but they definitely recognize that they didn't have the enterprise motions and people in the DNA and that David takes time people in the enterprise. It's not for the faint of heart. It's unique details that are different. You can't just, you know, swing the Google playbook and saying We're gonna home The enterprises are text grade. They knew that years ago. So I think you're going to see a good year for Google. I think you'll see a lot of change. Um, they got great people in there. On the product marketing side is Dev Solution Architects, and then the SRE model that they have perfected has been strong. And I think security is an area that they could really had a lot of value it. So, um always been a big fan of their huge network and all the intelligence they have that they could bring to bear on security. >>Yeah, I think Google's problem main problem that to actually there many, but one is that they don't They don't have the boots on the ground as compared to um, Microsoft, especially an Amazon actually had a similar problem, but they had a wide breath off their product portfolio. I always talk about feature proximity in cloud context, like if you're doing one thing. You wanna do another thing? And how do you go get that feature? Do you go to another cloud writer or it's right there where you are. So I think Amazon has the feature proximity and they also have, uh, aske Compared to Google, there's skills gravity. Larger people are trained on AWS. I think Google is trying there. So second problem Google is having is that that they're they're more focused on, I believe, um, on the data science part on their sort of skipping the cool components sort of off the cloud, if you will. The where the workloads needs, you know, basic stuff, right? That's like your compute storage and network. And that has to be well, talk through e think e think they will do good. >>Well, so later today, Paul Dillon sits down with Mids Avery of Google used to be in Oracle. He's with Google now, and he's gonna push him on on the numbers. You know, you're a distant third. Does that matter? And of course, you know, you're just a preview of it's gonna say, Well, no, we don't really pay attention to that stuff. But, John, you said something earlier that. I think Jerry Chen made this comment that, you know, Is it a winner? Take all? No, but it's a winner. Take a lot. You know the number two is going to get a big chunk of the pie. It appears that the markets big enough for three. But do you? Does Google have to really dramatically close the gap on be a much, much closer, you know, to the to the leaders in orderto to compete in this race? Or can they just kind of continue to bump along, siphon off the ad revenue? Put it out there? I mean, I >>definitely can compete. I think that's like Google's in it. Then it they're not. They're not caving, right? >>So But But I wrote I wrote recently that I thought they should even even put mawr oven emphasis on the cloud. I mean, maybe maybe they're already, you know, doubling down triple down. I just I think that is a multi trillion dollar, you know, future for the industry. And, you know, I think Google, believe it or not, could even do more. Now. Maybe there's just so much you could dio. >>There's a lot of challenges with these company, especially Google. They're in Silicon Valley. We have a big Social Justice warrior mentality. Um, there's a big debate going on the in the back channels of the tech scene here, and that is that if you want to be successful in cloud, you have to have a good edge strategy, and that involves surveillance, use of data and pushing the privacy limits. Right? So you know, Google has people within the country that will protest contract because AI is being used for war. Yet we have the most unstable geopolitical seen that I've ever witnessed in my lifetime going on right now. So, um, don't >>you think that's what happened with parlor? I mean, Rob Hope said, Hey, bar is pretty high to kick somebody off your platform. The parlor went over the line, but I would also think that a lot of the employees, whether it's Google AWS as well, said, Hey, why are we supporting you know this and so to your point about social justice, I mean, that's not something. That >>parlor was not just social justice. They were trying to throw the government. That's Rob e. I think they were in there to get selfies and being protesters. But apparently there was evidence from what I heard in some of these clubhouse, uh, private chats. Waas. There was overwhelming evidence on parlor. >>Yeah, but my point is that the employee backlash was also a factor. That's that's all I'm saying. >>Well, we have Google is your Google and you have employees to say we will boycott and walk out if you bid on that jet I contract for instance, right, But Microsoft one from maybe >>so. I mean, that's well, >>I think I think Tom Poole's making a really good point here, which is a Google is an alternative. Thio aws. The last Google cloud next that we were asked at they had is all virtual issue. But I saw a lot of I T practitioners in the audience looking around for an alternative to a W s just seeing, though, we could talk about Mano Cloud or Multi Cloud, and Andy Jassy has his his narrative around, and he's true when somebody goes multiple clouds, they put you know most of their eggs in one basket. Nonetheless, I think you know, Google's got a lot of people interested in, particularly in the analytic side, um, in in an alternative, hedging their bets eso and particularly use cases, so they should be able to do so. I guess my the bottom line here is the markets big enough to have Really? You don't have to be the Jack Welch. I gotta be number one and number two in the market. Is that the conclusion here? >>I think so. But the data gravity and the skills gravity are playing against them. Another problem, which I didn't want a couple of earlier was Google Eyes is that they have to boot out AWS wherever they go. Right? That is a huge challenge. Um, most off the most off the Fortune 2000 companies are already using AWS in one way or another. Right? So they are the multi cloud kind of player. Another one, you know, and just pure purely somebody going 200% Google Cloud. Uh, those cases are kind of pure, if you will. >>I think it's gonna be absolutely multi cloud. I think it's gonna be a time where you looked at the marketplace and you're gonna think in terms of disaster recovery, model of cloud or just fault tolerant capabilities or, you know, look at the parlor, the next parlor. Or what if Amazon wakes up one day and said, Hey, I don't like the cubes commentary on their virtual events, so shut them down. We should have a fail over to Google Cloud should Microsoft and Option. And one of people in Microsoft ecosystem wants to buy services from us. We have toe kind of co locate there. So these are all open questions that are gonna be the that will become certain pretty quickly, which is, you know, can a company diversify their computing An i t. In a way that works. And I think the momentum around Cooper Netease you're seeing as a great connective tissue between, you know, having applications work between clouds. Right? Well, directionally correct, in my opinion, because if I'm a company, why wouldn't I wanna have choice? So >>let's talk about this. The data is mixed on that. I'll share some data, meaty our data with you. About half the companies will say Yeah, we're spreading the wealth around to multiple clouds. Okay, That's one thing will come back to that. About the other half were saying, Yeah, we're predominantly mono cloud we didn't have. The resource is. But what I think going forward is that that what multi cloud really becomes. And I think John, you mentioned Snowflake before. I think that's an indicator of what what true multi cloud is going to look like. And what Snowflake is doing is they're building abstraction, layer across clouds. Ed Walsh would say, I'm standing on the shoulders of Giants, so they're basically following points of presence around the globe and building their own cloud. They call it a data cloud with a global mesh. We'll hear more about that later today, but you sign on to that cloud. So they're saying, Hey, we're gonna build value because so many of Amazon's not gonna build that abstraction layer across multi clouds, at least not in the near term. So that's a really opportunity for >>people. I mean, I don't want to sound like I'm dating myself, but you know the date ourselves, David. I remember back in the eighties, when you had open systems movement, right? The part of the whole Revolution OS I open systems interconnect model. At that time, the networking stacks for S N A. For IBM, decadent for deck we all know that was a proprietary stack and then incomes TCP I p Now os I never really happened on all seven layers, but the bottom layers standardized. Okay, that was huge. So I think if you look at a W s or some of the comments in the chat AWS is could be the s n a. Depends how you're looking at it, right? And you could say they're open. But in a way, they want more Amazon. So Amazon's not out there saying we love multi cloud. Why would they promote multi cloud? They are a one of the clouds they want. >>That's interesting, John. And then subject is a cloud architect. I mean, it's it is not trivial to make You're a data cloud. If you're snowflake, work on AWS work on Google. Work on Azure. Be seamless. I mean, certainly the marketing says that, but technically, that's not trivial. You know, there are latent see issues. Uh, you know, So that's gonna take a while to develop. What? Do your thoughts there? >>I think that multi cloud for for same workload and multi cloud for different workloads are two different things. Like we usually put multiple er in one bucket, right? So I think you're right. If you're trying to do multi cloud for the same workload, that's it. That's Ah, complex, uh, problem to solve architecturally, right. You have to have a common ap ice and common, you know, control playing, if you will. And we don't have that yet, and then we will not have that for a for at least one other couple of years. So, uh, if you if you want to do that, then you have to go to the lower, lowest common denominator in technical sort of stock, if you will. And then you're not leveraging the best of the breed technology off their from different vendors, right? I believe that's a hard problem to solve. And in another thing, is that that that I always say this? I'm always on the death side, you know, developer side, I think, uh, two deaths. Public cloud is a proxy for innovative culture. Right. So there's a catch phrase I have come up with today during shower eso. I think that is true. And then people who are companies who use the best of the breed technologies, they can attract the these developers and developers are the Mazen's off This digital sort of empires, amazingly, is happening there. Right there they are the Mazen's right. They head on the bricks. I think if you don't appeal to developers, if you don't but extensive for, like, force behind educating the market, you can't you can't >>put off. It's the same game Stepping story was seeing some check comments. Uh, guard. She's, uh, linked in friend of mine. She said, Microsoft, If you go back and look at the Microsoft early days to the developer Point they were, they made their phones with developers. They were a software company s Oh, hey, >>forget developers, developers, developers. >>You were if you were in the developer ecosystem, you were treated his gold. You were part of the family. If you were outside that world, you were competitors, and that was ruthless times back then. But they again they had. That was where it was today. Look at where the software defined businesses and starve it, saying it's all about being developer lead in this new way to program, right? So the cloud next Gen Cloud is going to look a lot like next Gen Developer and all the different tools and techniques they're gonna change. So I think, yes, this kind of developer ecosystem will be harnessed, and that's the power source. It's just gonna look different. So, >>Justin, Justin in the chat has a comment. I just want to answer the question about elastic thoughts on elastic. Um, I tell you, elastic has momentum uh, doing doing very well in the market place. Thea Elk Stack is a great alternative that people are looking thio relative to Splunk. Who people complain about the pricing. Of course it's plunks got the easy button, but it is getting increasingly expensive. The problem with elk stack is you know, it's open source. It gets complicated. You got a shard, the databases you gotta manage. It s Oh, that's what Ed Walsh's company chaos searches is all about. But elastic has some riel mo mentum in the marketplace right now. >>Yeah, you know, other things that coming on the chat understands what I was saying about the open systems is kubernetes. I always felt was that is a bad metaphor. But they're with me. That was the TCP I peep In this modern era, C t c p I p created that that the disruptor to the S N A s and the network protocols that were proprietary. So what KUBERNETES is doing is creating a connective tissue between clouds and letting the open source community fill in the gaps in the middle, where kind of way kind of probably a bad analogy. But that's where the disruption is. And if you look at what's happened since Kubernetes was put out there, what it's become kind of de facto and standard in the sense that everyone's rallying around it. Same exact thing happened with TCP was people were trashing it. It is terrible, you know it's not. Of course they were trashed because it was open. So I find that to be very interesting. >>Yeah, that's a good >>analogy. E. Thinks the R C a cable. I used the R C. A cable analogy like the VCRs. When they started, they, every VC had had their own cable, and they will work on Lee with that sort of plan of TV and the R C. A cable came and then now you can put any TV with any VCR, and the VCR industry took off. There's so many examples out there around, uh, standards And how standards can, you know, flair that fire, if you will, on dio for an industry to go sort of wild. And another trend guys I'm seeing is that from the consumer side. And let's talk a little bit on the consuming side. Um, is that the The difference wouldn't be to B and B to C is blood blurred because even the physical products are connected to the end user Like my door lock, the August door lock I didn't just put got get the door lock and forget about that. Like I I value the expedience it gives me or problems that gives me on daily basis. So I'm close to that vendor, right? So So the middle men, uh, middle people are getting removed from from the producer off the technology or the product to the consumer. Even even the sort of big grocery players they have their APs now, uh, how do you buy stuff and how it's delivered and all that stuff that experience matters in that context, I think, um, having, uh, to be able to sell to thes enterprises from the Cloud writer Breuder's. They have to have these case studies or all these sample sort off reference architectures and stuff like that. I think whoever has that mawr pushed that way, they are doing better like that. Amazon is Amazon. Because of that reason, I think they have lot off sort off use cases about on top of them. And they themselves do retail like crazy. Right? So and other things at all s. So I think that's a big trend. >>Great. Great points are being one of things. There's a question in there about from, uh, Yaden. Who says, uh, I like the developer Lead cloud movement, But what is the criticality of the executive audience when educating the marketplace? Um, this comes up a lot in some of my conversations around automation. So automation has been a big wave to automate this automate everything. And then everything is a service has become kind of kind of the the executive suite. Kind of like conversation we need to make everything is a service in our business. You seeing people move to that cloud model. Okay, so the executives think everything is a services business strategy, which it is on some level, but then, when they say Take that hill, do it. Developers. It's not that easy. And this is where a lot of our cube conversations over the past few months have been, especially during the cova with cute virtual. This has come up a lot, Dave this idea, and start being around. It's easy to say everything is a service but will implement it. It's really hard, and I think that's where the developer lead Connection is where the executive have to understand that in order to just say it and do it are two different things. That digital transformation. That's a big part of it. So I think that you're gonna see a lot of education this year around what it means to actually do that and how to implement it. >>I'd like to comment on the as a service and subject. Get your take on it. I mean, I think you're seeing, for instance, with HP Green Lake, Dell's come out with Apex. You know IBM as its utility model. These companies were basically taking a page out of what I what I would call a flawed SAS model. If you look at the SAS players, whether it's salesforce or workday, service now s a P oracle. These models are They're really They're not cloud pricing models. They're they're basically you got to commit to a term one year, two year, three year. We'll give you a discount if you commit to the longer term. But you're locked in on you. You probably pay upfront. Or maybe you pay quarterly. That's not a cloud pricing model. And that's why I mean, they're flawed. You're seeing companies like Data Dog, for example. Snowflake is another one, and they're beginning to price on a consumption basis. And that is, I think, one of the big changes that we're going to see this decade is that true cloud? You know, pay by the drink pricing model and to your point, john toe, actually implement. That is, you're gonna need a whole new layer across your company on it is quite complicated it not even to mention how you compensate salespeople, etcetera. The a p. I s of your product. I mean, it is that, but that is a big sea change that I see coming. Subject your >>thoughts. Yeah, I think like you couldn't see it. And like some things for this big tech exacts are hidden in the plain >>sight, right? >>They don't see it. They they have blind spots, like Look at that. Look at Amazon. They went from Melissa and 200 millisecond building on several s, Right, Right. And then here you are, like you're saying, pay us for the whole year. If you don't use the cloud, you lose it or will pay by month. Poor user and all that stuff like that that those a role models, I think these players will be forced to use that term pricing like poor minute or for a second, poor user. That way, I think the Salesforce moral is hybrid. They're struggling in a way. I think they're trying to bring the platform by doing, you know, acquisition after acquisition to be a platform for other people to build on top off. But they're having a little trouble there because because off there, such pricing and little closeness, if you will. And, uh, again, I'm coming, going, going back to developers like, if you are not appealing to developers who are writing the latest and greatest code and it is open enough, by the way open and open source are two different things that we all know that. So if your platform is not open enough, you will have you know, some problems in closing the deals. >>E. I want to just bring up a question on chat around from Justin didn't fitness. Who says can you touch on the vertical clouds? Has your offering this and great question Great CP announcing Retail cloud inventions IBM Athena Okay, I'm a huge on this point because I think this I'm not saying this for years. Cloud computing is about horizontal scalability and vertical specialization, and that's absolutely clear, and you see all the clouds doing it. The vertical rollouts is where the high fidelity data is, and with machine learning and AI efforts coming out, that's accelerated benefits. There you have tow, have the vertical focus. I think it's super smart that clouds will have some sort of vertical engine, if you will in the clouds and build on top of a control playing. Whether that's data or whatever, this is clearly the winning formula. If you look at all the successful kind of ai implementations, the ones that have access to the most data will get the most value. So, um if you're gonna have a data driven cloud you have tow, have this vertical feeling, Um, in terms of verticals, the data on DSO I think that's super important again, just generally is a strategy. I think Google doing a retail about a super smart because their whole pitches were not Amazon on. Some people say we're not Google, depending on where you look at. So every of these big players, they have dominance in the areas, and that's scarce. Companies and some companies will never go to Amazon for that reason. Or some people never go to Google for other reasons. I know people who are in the ad tech. This is a black and we're not. We're not going to Google. So again, it is what it is. But this idea of vertical specialization relevant in super >>forts, I want to bring to point out to sessions that are going on today on great points. I'm glad you asked that question. One is Alan. As he kicks off at 1 p.m. Eastern time in the transformation track, he's gonna talk a lot about the coming power of ecosystems and and we've talked about this a lot. That that that to compete with Amazon, Google Azure, you've gotta have some kind of specialization and vertical specialization is a good one. But of course, you see in the big Big three also get into that. But so he's talking at one o'clock and then it at 3 36 PM You know this times are strange, but e can explain that later Hillary Hunter is talking about she's the CTO IBM I B M's ah Financial Cloud, which is another really good example of specifying vertical requirements and serving. You know, an audience subject. I think you have some thoughts on this. >>Actually, I lost my thought. E >>think the other piece of that is data. I mean, to the extent that you could build an ecosystem coming back to Alan Nancy's premise around data that >>billions of dollars in >>their day there's billions of dollars and that's the title of the session. But we did the trillion dollar baby post with Jazzy and said Cloud is gonna be a trillion dollars right? >>And and the point of Alan Answer session is he's thinking from an individual firm. Forget the millions that you're gonna save shifting to the cloud on cost. There's billions in ecosystems and operating models. That's >>absolutely the business value. Now going back to my half stack full stack developer, is the business value. I've been talking about this on the clubhouses a lot this past month is for the entrepreneurs out there the the activity in the business value. That's the new the new intellectual property is the business logic, right? So if you could see innovations in how work streams and workflow is gonna be a configured differently, you have now large scale cloud specialization with data, you can move quickly and take territory. That's much different scenario than a decade ago, >>at the point I was trying to make earlier was which I know I remember, is that that having the horizontal sort of features is very important, as compared to having vertical focus. You know, you're you're more healthcare focused like you. You have that sort of needs, if you will, and you and our auto or financials and stuff like that. What Google is trying to do, I think that's it. That's a good thing. Do cook up the reference architectures, but it's a bad thing in a way that you drive drive away some developers who are most of the developers at 80 plus percent, developers are horizontal like you. Look at the look into the psyche of a developer like you move from company to company. And only few developers will say I will stay only in health care, right? So I will only stay in order or something of that, right? So they you have to have these horizontal capabilities which can be applied anywhere on then. On top >>of that, I think that's true. Sorry, but I'll take a little bit different. Take on that. I would say yes, that's true. But remember, remember the old school application developer Someone was just called in Application developer. All they did was develop applications, right? They pick the framework, they did it right? So I think we're going to see more of that is just now mawr of Under the Covers developers. You've got mawr suffer defined networking and software, defined storage servers and cloud kubernetes. And it's kind of like under the hood. But you got your, you know, classic application developer. I think you're gonna see him. A lot of that come back in a way that's like I don't care about anything else. And that's the promise of cloud infrastructure is code. So I think this both. >>Hey, I worked. >>I worked at people solved and and I still today I say into into this context, I say E r P s are the ultimate low code. No code sort of thing is right. And what the problem is, they couldn't evolve. They couldn't make it. Lightweight, right? Eso um I used to write applications with drag and drop, you know, stuff. Right? But But I was miserable as a developer. I didn't Didn't want to be in the applications division off PeopleSoft. I wanted to be on the tools division. There were two divisions in most of these big companies ASAP. Oracle. Uh, like companies that divisions right? One is the cooking up the tools. One is cooking up the applications. The basketball was always gonna go to the tooling. Hey, >>guys, I'm sorry. We're almost out of time. I always wanted to t some of the sections of the day. First of all, we got Holder Mueller coming on at lunch for a power half hour. Um, you'll you'll notice when you go back to the home page. You'll notice that calendar, that linear clock that we talked about that start times are kind of weird like, for instance, an appendix coming on at 1 24. And that's because these air prerecorded assets and rather than having a bunch of dead air, we're just streaming one to the other. So so she's gonna talk about people, process and technology. We got Kathy Southwick, whose uh, Silicon Valley CEO Dan Sheehan was the CEO of Dunkin Brands and and he was actually the c 00 So it's C A CEO connecting the dots to the business. Daniel Dienes is the CEO of you I path. He's coming on a 2:47 p.m. East Coast time one of the hottest companies, probably the fastest growing software company in history. We got a guy from Bain coming on Dave Humphrey, who invested $750 million in Nutanix. He'll explain why and then, ironically, Dheeraj Pandey stew, Minuteman. Our friend interviewed him. That's 3 35. 1 of the sessions are most excited about today is John McD agony at 403 p. M. East Coast time, she's gonna talk about how to fix broken data architectures, really forward thinking stuff. And then that's the So that's the transformation track on the future of cloud track. We start off with the Big Three Milan Thompson Bukovec. At one oclock, she runs a W s storage business. Then I mentioned gig therapy wrath at 1. 30. He runs Azure is analytics. Business is awesome. Paul Dillon then talks about, um, IDs Avery at 1 59. And then our friends to, um, talks about interview Simon Crosby. I think I think that's it. I think we're going on to our next session. All right, so keep it right there. Thanks for watching the Cuban cloud. Uh huh.

>> Narrator: Live from Las Vegas, it's the Cube, covering VMWorld 2017. Brought to you by VMWare and its ecosystem partners. (bright music) >> Hi, I'm Stu Miniman with the Cube, here with my guest host, Justin Warren. Happy to have a returning Cube alum, but in a different role then we had. It's been a few years. Tal Klein, who is the author of The Punch Escrow. >> Au-tor, please. No, I'm just kidding. (laughing) Tal, thanks so much for joining us. It's great for you to be able to find time to hang out with the tech geeks rather than all the Hollywood people that you've been with recently. (laughing) >> You guys are more interesting. (laughing) >> Well thank you for saying that. So last time we interviewed you, you were working for a sizable tech company. You were talking about things like, you know, virtualization, everything like that. Your Twitter handle's VirtualTal. So how does a guy like that become not only an author but an author that's been optioned for a movie, which those of us that, you know, are geeks and everything are looking at, as a matter of fact, Pac Elsiger this morning said, "we are seeing science fiction become science fact." >> That's right. >> Stu: So tell us a little of the journey. >> Yeah, cool, I hope you read the book. (laughing) I don't know, the journey is really about marketing, right? Cause a lot of times when we talk about virtual, like, in fact last time I was on the Cube, we were talking about the idea that desktops could be virtual. Cause back then it was still this, you know, almost hypothetical notion, like could desktops be virtual, and so today, you know, so much of our life is virtual. So much of the things that we do are not actually direct. I was watching this great video by Apple's new augmented reality product, where you sit in the restaurant and you look at it with your iPad, and it's your plate, and you can just shift the menu items, and you see the menu items on your plate in the context of the restaurant and your seat and the person you're sitting across from. So I think the future is now. >> Yeah, it reminds of, you know, the movie Wall-E, the animated one. We're all going to be sitting in chairs with our devices or Ready Player One, you know, very popular sci-fi book that's being done by Speilberg, I believe. >> Yes, yeah, very exciting. >> Tell us a little bit about your book, you know, we talked, when I was younger and used to read a lot of sci-fi, it was like, what stuff had they done 50 years ago that now's reality, and what stuff had they predicted, like, you know, we're going to go away from currency and go digital currency, and it's like we're almost there. But we still don't have flying cars. >> Yeah, we're, I mean, the main problem with flying cars is that we need pilots. And I think actually we're very close to flying cars, cause once we have self-driving vehicles and we no longer need to worry about it being a person behind the joystick, then we're in really good shape. That's really the issue, you know, the problem with flying cars is that we are so incompetent at driving and or flying. That's not our core competency, so let's just put things that do understand how to make those things happen and eliminate us from the equation. >> Everything is a people problem. >> Yeah, so when I wrote the book, Punch Escrow, Punch Escrow, (laughing) when I wrote the book, I really thought about all the things that I read growing up in science fiction, you know, things like teleportation, things like nanotechnology, things like digital currency, you know, how do we make those, how do we present those in a viable way that doesn't seem too science fictiony. Like one of the things I really get when people read the book is it feels really near-future, even though it's set like 100 plus years in the future, all the concepts in it feel very pragmatic or within reach, you know? >> Yeah, absolutely. It's interesting, we look at, you know, what things happen in a couple of years and what things take a long time. So artificial intelligence, machine learning, it's not like these are new concepts, you know? I read a great book by, you know, it was Isaacson, The Innovators. You go back to like Aida Lovelace, and the idea of what a machine or computer would be able to do. So 100 years from now, what's real, what's not real? We still all have jobs or something? >> We have jobs but different. Remember, I don't know if you're a historian, but back in the industrial age, there was a whole bunch of people screaming doom and gloom. In fact, if we go way back to the age of the Luddites, who just hated machines of any kind. I think that in general, we don't like, you know, we're scared of change. So I do think a lot of the jobs that exist today are going to be done by machines or code. That doesn't mean the jobs are going away. It means jobs are changing. A lot of the jobs that people have today didn't exist in the industrial age. So I think that we have to accept that we are going to be pragmatic enough to accept the fact that humans will continue to evolve as the infrastructure powering our world evolves, you know? We talk about living in the age of the quantified self, right? There's a whole bunch that we don't understand how to do yet. For example, I can think of a whole industry that tethers my FitBit to my nutrition. You know, like there's so much opportunity that for us to say, oh that's going to be the end of jobs, or the end of innovation or the end of capitalism, is insane. I think this just ushers in a whole new age of opportunity. And that's me, I'm just an optimist that way, you know. >> So the Luddites did famously try to destroy the machines. But the thing is, the Luddites weren't wrong. They did lose their jobs. So what about the people whose jobs are replaced, as you say net new, there's a net new number of jobs. But specific individuals, like people who manufacture cars for example, lose their jobs because a robot can do that job safer and better and faster than a human can do it. So what do we do with those humans? Because how do we get people to have new jobs and retrain themselves? >> I address some of these notions in the book. For example, one of the weird things that we're suffering from is the lack of welders in society today, cause welding has become this weird thing that we don't think we need people for, so people don't really get trained up in it because, you know, machines do a lot of welding but there's actually specialty welding that machines can't do. So I think the people who are really good at the things that they do will continue to have careers. I think their careers will become more niche. Therefore they'll be able to create, to demand a higher wage for it because almost like a carpenter, you know, a specialist carpenter will be able to earn a much higher wage today by having fewer customers who want really custom carpentry versus things that can be carved up by a machine. So I think what we end up seeing is that it's not that those jobs go away. It's they become more specialized. People still want Rolls Royces. People still want McLarens. Those are not done by machines. Those are hand-made, you know? >> That's an interesting point, so the value of something being hand-made becomes, instead of it being a worse product, it's actually- >> Tal: That's a big concept in the book. >> Oh okay, right. >> A big concept in the book is that we place a lot of value on the uniqueness of an object. And that parlays in multiple ways. So one of the examples that I use in the book is the value of a Big Mac actually coming from McDonald's. Like, you can make a Big Mac. We know the recipe for a Big Mac. But there is a weird sort of nacent value to getting a Big Mac from McDonald's. It's something in our brain that clicks that tethers it to an originality. Diamonds, another really good example. Or you know, we know there's synthetic diamonds. We still want the ones that get mined in the cave. Why? We don't know. Right, they're just special. >> Because De Beers still has really good marketing. (laughing) >> So I think there's- >> That's interesting, so the concept of uniqueness, which again comes to scarcity and so on. As an author, someone who is no doubt, signed a lot of his book, that means that that book is unique because it's signed by the author, unlike something which is mass produced and there is hopefully thousands and thousands of copies that you sell. >> Going into this, I actually thought about that a lot. And that's why I've created like multiple editions of the book. So like the first 500 people who pre-ordered it, they get like a special edition of the book that's like stamped and all this kind of stuff. I even used different pens. (laughs) I appreciate that because I'm also a collector. I collect music, I collect books. And you know, so I see those aspects in myself. So I know what I value about them, you know? >> And the crossover between music and books is interesting. So as someone who has a musical background, I know that there's a lot of musicians who'll come out with special editions, and you know, because this is an age where we can download it. You can download the book. Do you think there is something, is there something that is intrinsic to having a physical object in a virtual world? >> I think to our generation, yes. I'm not so sure about millennials, when they grow up. But there are, for example, I'm going to see U2 next week, I'm very lucky to see that. But part of the U2 buying experience, to get access to the presale, you need to be part of their fan club. To be a part of their fan club, you need to get, you get like a whole bunch of limited edition posters, limited edition vinyl, and all this kind of stuff. So there's an experience. It's no longer just about going to see U2 at a concert. There's like the entire package of you being a special U2 fan. And they surround it with uniqueness. It's not necessarily limited, but there's an enhanced experience that can't just be, it's not just about you having a ticket to a single concert. >> Justin: Yeah, okay. >> I'm curious, the genre, if you'd call it, is hard science fiction. >> Yes. >> The challenge with that is, you know, what is an extension of what we're doing, and what is fiction? And people probably poke at that. Have you had any interesting experience, things like that? I mean, I've listened to a lot of stuff like Andy Weir, like let the community give feedback before he created the final The Martian. (laughing) But so yeah, what's it like, cause we can, the geeks can be really harsh. >> Yes, I've learned from my Reddit experience that, so what's really funny about it is the first draft of this novel was hard as nails. It was crazy. And my publisher read it, and it would have made all the hard science fiction guys super happy. My publisher read it, he was like, you've written a really great hard science fiction book, and all five people who read it are going to love it. (laughing) You know, but like, I came here with my buddy Danny. He couldn't even get through the first three pages of it. He's like, he wanted to read it. So part of working through the editorial process is saying, look, I care a lot about the science because one of my deep goals is to write a STEM-oriented book that gets people excited about technology and present the future as not a dystopian place. And so I wanted the science to be there and have a sort of gravity to the narrative. But yeah, it's tough. I worked with a physicist, a biologist, a geneticist, an anthropologist, and a lawyer. (laughs) Just to try to figure out, how do we carve out, you know, what does the future look like, what does the evolution of each individual sciences, we talked about the mosquitoes, right? You know, we're already doing a lot of crazy stuff with mosquitoes. We're modifying them so that the males mate with females that carry the Zika virus, you know, give birth to offspring that never reach maturity. I mean, this is just crazy, it's science fiction. And now that they're working on modifying female mosquitoes into vaccine carriers instead of disease carriers. I mean, this is science fiction, right? Like who believes this stuff? It's crazy. >> Christopher is amazing. >> Yeah, I've loved, there's been a bunch of movies recently that have kind of helped to educate on STEM some, you know, Martian got a lot of people excited, you know, Hidden Figures, the one that I could being my kids that are teenagers now into it and they get excited, oh, science is great. So the movie, how much will you be involved? You know, what can you share about that experience, too, so far? >> It's been, it's very surreal. That's the word is use to describe it, the honest, god's honest truth, I mean. I've been very lucky in that my representation in Hollywood is this rock-solid guy called Howie Sanders. And he's this bigger-than-life Hollywood agent guy. He's hooked me up, we've made a lot of business decisions that we're focused less on the money and more on the team, which is nice to be, like when you're in your 40s and you're more financially settled, you're not in the kind of situation where you might be in your 20s and just going to sign the first deal that people give you. So we really focused on hooking up with like the director, James Bovin is, you know, he's the guy who co-created Flight of the Concords. He did the Muppets movie, you know, Alice Through the Looking Glass. Really professional guy but also really understands the tone of the book, which is like humorous, you know, kind of sarcastic. It's not just about the technology. It's also about the characters. Same thing with the production team. The two producers, Mandeville Productions, I was just talking to Todd Lieberman, and we're talking about just what is augmented reality, like how does it look like on the screen? So I'm not- >> It's not going to look like Blade Runner is what I'm hearing. >> (laughs) I don't know. It's going to look real. I imagine, I don't know, they're going to make whatever movie they're going to make, but their perspective, one of the things we talked about is keeping the movie very grounded. Like you know, one of the big questions they ask first going into it is before we even had any sort of movie discussions is like is this more of like a Looper, Gattica, or District Nine, or is it more like The Fifth Element, you know, I mean, is it like, do you want it to be this sort of grounded movie that feels authentic and real and near future or do you want this to be like completely alien and weird and out of it. And the story is more grounded. So I think a lot, hopefully what we display on the screen will not feel that far away from reality. >> Okay, yeah. >> You do marketing in your day job. >> I do. >> I'm curious as you look at this, kind of the balance of educating, reaching a broad audience, you have passion for STEM, what's your thoughts around that? Is it, I worry there's so much general, like television or things like that, when I see the science stuff, it like makes me groan. Because you know, it's like I don't understand that. >> I am the worst, because I got a security background too, so that's the one I get scrambled on. The war, I mean, like. >> Wait, thank goodness I updated my firewall settings because I saved the world from terrorists. >> Hang on, we're breaking through the first firewall. Now we're through the second firewall. (laughing) Now we're going through the third firewall, like 15 firewalls. And let me upload the virus, like all that stuff. It's difficult for me. I think that, you know, hopefully, there's also a group in Hollywood called the Hollywood Science and Entertainment Exchange. And they're a group of scientists who work with film makers on, you know, reigning things in. And film makers don't usually take all their advice, i.e. Interstellar, (laughing) but you know, I think (laughing) in many cases there's some really good ideas that come to play into it that hopefully bring up, like I think Jarvis for example, in Iron Man or the Avengers is a really cool implementation of what the future of AI systems might be like. And I know they used the Hollywood Science Exchange to figure out how is that going to work? And I think the marketing aspect is, you know, the reason I came up with the idea for this book is because my CEO of a company I used to work for, he had this whole conversation about teleportation, like teleportation was impossible. And he's like, it's not because the science, yes, the science is a problem right now, but we'll get over it. The main issue is that nobody would ever step foot into a device that vaporizes them and then printed them out somewhere else. And I said, well that's great, cause that's a marketing problem. (laughing) >> Yeah, you're dead every time you do it. But it's the same you, I can't tell the difference. >> Well, you say you're dead, I'm saying you're just moving. (laughing) >> Artificial intelligence, you know, kind of a big gap between the hype to where we need to go. What's your thoughts on that space in general? >> I think that we have, it's a great question because I feel like that's a term that gets thrown around a lot, and I think as a result it's becoming watered down. So you've this sort of artificial intelligence that comes with like, you know, Google building an app that can beat the world's best Go player, which is a really, really difficult puzzle. The problem is, that app can do one thing, and that's play Go. You put in it a chess game, and it's like I don't know what's going on. >> It's a very specialized kind of intelligence, yeah. >> Now with Open AI, you know, they just had some pretty interesting implementations where they actually played video games with a real live competition and won. Again, you know, but without the smack talk, which really I think would add a lot. Now you got to get an AI to smack talk. So I think the problem is we haven't figured out a really good way of creating a general purpose AI. And there's a lot of parallels to the evolution of computing in general because if you look at how computers were before we had general purpose operating systems like Unix, every computer was built to do a very, very specific function, and that's kind of what AI is right now. So we're still waiting to have a sort of general purpose AI that can do a lot of specialized activities. >> Even most robots are still very single-purpose today. >> That's the fundamental problem. But you're seeing the Cambridge guys are working on sort of the bipedal robot that can do lots of things. And Siri's getting better, Cortana's getting better, Watson's getting better, but we're not there. We still need to find a really good way of integrating deep knowledge with general purpose conversational AI. Cause that's really what you need to like, Stu, what do you need? Here, let me give it to you, you know? >> Do you draw a distinction between AI that's able to simply sort of react as a fairly complex machine or something that can create new things and add something? >> That's in the book as well. So the fundamental thing that I don't think we get around even in the future is giving computers the ability to actually come up with new ideas. There's actually a career, the main job of the protagonist in the book, his job is a salter. And his job is to salt AI algorithms to introduce entropy so they can come up with new ideas. >> Okay, interesting. >> So based off the sort of chaos theory. >> Like chaos monkey, right? >> Yeah. And that's really what you're trying to do is like, okay, react to things that are happening because you can't just come up with them on their own. There's a whole, I don't want to bore you, but there's a whole bunch of stuff in the book about how that works. >> It's like hand-carving ideas that are then mass produced by machines. >> Yeah, I don't know if you guys are going to have Simon Crosby on here, he's kind of like an expert on that. He was the Dean of Kings College, which is where Turing came from. So he really knows a lot about that. He's got a lot of strong ideas about it. But I learned a lot from him in that regard. There's a lot of like, the snarky spirit of Simon Crosby lives on in my book somewhere. But he's just funny cause he's, coming from that field, he immediately sees a lot of BS right off the bat, whenever anybody's presenting. He's got like the ability to just cut through it. Because he understands what it would actually take to make that happen, you know? So I tried to preserve some of that in the book. >> That is refreshing in the tech industry. >> So Tal, I need to let you, you know, wrap this up. Give us a plug for the book, tell us, when are we going to be able to see this on the big screen? >> I don't know about the big screen, but the Punch Escrow is now available. You can get it on Amazon, Barnes and Noble, anywhere books are sold. It's been optioned by Lionsgate. The director attached to it is James Bovin, production team is Mandeville Productions. I'm very excited about it. Go check it out. It's a pretty quick read, reads like a technothriller. It's not too hard. And it's fun for the whole family. I think one of the coolest things about it is that the feedback I've been getting has been that it really is appealing to everybody. I've got mother-in-laws reading it, you know, it's pretty cool. Initially I sold it, my initial audience is like us, but it's kind of cool, like, Stu will finish the book, he'll give it to, you know, wife, daughter, anything, and they're really digging it. So it's kind of fun. >> Justin: Thanks a lot. >> Tal Klein, really appreciate you coming. Congratulations on the book, we look forward to the movie. Maybe, you know, we'll get the Cube involved down the road. (laughing) >> And we're giving away 75 copies of it here at Lakeside booth, if you guys want to come. >> Tal Klein, author of The Punch Escrow, also CMO of Lakeside, who is here in the thing. But yeah, (laughing) a lot of stuff. Justin and I will be back with more coverage here from VMWorld 2017. You're watching the Cube. (bright music)