>> Announcer: Live, from New Orleans, Louisiana. It's theCUBE! Covering .NEXT conference 2018, brought to you by Nutanix! >> Welcome back to theCUBE! This is SiliconANGLE Media's live production of Nutanix .NEXT 2018. If you've eaten a lot of the cuisine here in New Orleans, you might want to do something to help burn those calories, and joining us for this segment, happy to welcome Sarah Robb O'Hagan, who's the CEO of Flywheel Sports and also the author of Extreme You. Sarah, welcome to our program. >> Thanks for having me! >> Tell us a little bit about your company and what brings your group to the show? >> Yeah, we're very excited to be here, this is a whole new experience for us. Flywheel is an indoor cycling business We started off as basically bricks and mortar, indoor cycling classes, and we were the first company to put technology on the bike, so have either of you done spinning before ever? >> I've seen them in a gym. >> Seen them in a gym. >> I take my bike out on the trails and get my kids out a bunch, but not indoors so much. >> So in the old days if you did a spinning class and the instructor was like turn up your resistance, you'd maybe kind of pretend but you didn't do it, whereas we put tech on the bike so it's like, oh, you have to hit this number and you've got to get this output, and so it makes it much more athletic and accountable, and then we just recently launched a streaming platform, so now you can stream the classes into one of our bikes in your home, it's for flight anywhere, so we ended up coming here 'cause I was speaking at the conference with regards to my book and we were like these are fun people, they're going to want to check out our bikes and our techs, so let's do it. >> Wait, so the tech people, do they get engaged, are they trying it out? >> Oh it's amazing, yeah. We've seen people riding to the leaderboard wearing jeans, it's fantastic. >> I'm a runner, so-- >> Yeah, me too! >> But, you know there's certain runners and there's certain cyclists that there's this built-in competition like, you know, cycling is for the hardcore folks that really like the workout, and then you have guys like me. I can't stream a app to say, hey, you know what, you need to pick up your pace and keep it moving. That is an amazing kind of innovation, especially for that market, there's an awful lot of competition. How are you differentiating yourself between the competition? >> That's a great question. So it starts with who we're serving, who we're doing it for, right, so if there's about a hundred million in America that work out maybe between zero and six times a week. Our consumers are the ones that are like five to six times a week, they are hardcore, they're intense, they like competition, they are, like, I can't let the kids win at Monopoly kind of people, and so how we differentiate is everything in the product has been designed with them in mind, so allowing them to really push their own performance in a big way and the metrics, every time you do a ride, particularly on the streaming platform, you can pace against yourself last time you rode, so you can see am I keeping up, am I doing better, so it's basically about really focusing on one kind of athlete, as we call them, and meeting their needs as best as we can. >> Digital transformation is hitting your industry hard. >> Totally. >> You're streaming now, you've been through some big brands in the past, how's this impacting? How does your company deal with the pace of change? >> Well, you know, it's funny. I have been lucky in that my career, I've journeyed through some very big iconic brands. I was at Virgin Megastores when we used to buy music, do you remember on things that went round and round from retail store, right? And then along came Napster and totally disrupted that industry. I was at Gatorade when we had to transform that, and what I've learned along the way is that you just have to commit yourself to constantly innovating and disrupting yourself. If you let the environment do it to you it's too late, and so I think that's how we think about it, like we soar not so much from the market, because certainly streaming is taking off, like health and fitness apps in the app store are always the top category on both Android and iPhone. Also boutique fitness was exploding, so that's where you do one kind of modality as opposed to going to a full service gym, and so we saw these trends happening, but then you speak to the consumer, it's like what are you looking for? And what we kept hearing was I love being at Flywheel, but I wish I could get it when I was on the road, when I'm in the hotel, when I'm, you know, and so we're like how do we bring out content to you wherever you need it at any time? So that was really what led to it. >> So, I would like to talk to you about discoverability, like as you said, go to the app store, Google fitness app, going to get 10,000 results. How do you guys rise to the top? How do you find new customers? >> Interestingly enough, we, I think, are lucky because of our existing business, so we have a footprint of 42 studios, we have 600,000 people that have ridden with Flywheel over the years, and what's neat about having that in-person experience is you really build brand evangelists, so a lot of our early sales of the streaming platform have come from those people who are telling their friends about it, who are not in communities where our studios exist, and then from obviously a paid digital ad standpoint, we can get very very specific in to look-alike types to the kinds of consumer we have because they have pretty standard typical behaviors, in terms of they happen to do a lot of marathons, they happen to do Tough Mudders and stuff like that. They're runners, they're doing strength workouts, so we can see what these kinds of people are online to really be focused on how we target them. >> So what about the monetization? You know there's the freemium models, there's all different things, how is this move impacted that? >> That's a great question. We're doing our streaming as a subscription model and actually we look for a one year commitment, 'cause we really believe that, particularly 'cause we're going after someone who's very engaged in the category. We want them to sign up and be with the program and basically get that loyalty to, not only the programming, the instructors they love, but the data, like once they've got data in the system that becomes a method of loyalty, because it keeps them wanting to know what their previous results were, so for us we're not really doing free leading in. I mean, certainly we do trial classes in our studios, but we know that people, basically, if they make a commitment, that's how they become really loyal to our brand and our category. >> So talk to us as a leader and someone who's, you know there's probably nothing more personal, more critical to me than my running data, like I completely trust it to my cloud provider, and if it was to ever go away I'd be devastated if I have a big running goal. As you pick technology partners and you have that weight like someone may look at it from the outside, oh, what's the big deal if you're cycling data is gone? That's very serious. How do you pick technology partners that help you to extend the trust that your users put in to you, to your technology partner? >> It's so profoundly important to the relationship with our consumer, that when we're picking technology partners we're always going to go for best in class, and we're always going to make sure those are the people that we know are treating the data with the same kind of importance, I guess, that we are. For example, we're actually doing a lot with Apple right now, not surprisingly with the Apple Watch because that's the kind of partner we see so many of our riders are using Apple Watches in the experience anyway, and we want to be able to take the data that's coming through that device, add it to what we're getting off the bike, and make it more meaningful for that particular consumer. It's very important to us, we would not ever go with some fly-by-night tech partner if they didn't have the kind of credentials that we were looking for. >> Alright. So Sarah, tell us about the book. Step Up, Stand Out, Kick Ass, Repeat? >> Kick ass, people. That's what it's about. So I wrote the book about a couple years ago, it's interesting how it came about, you're a runner so I think you'll appreciate this. I have three kids, and my kids were going and playing new sports, and coming home with participation trophies, and I'm like what the hell is that? Like why did you get a trophy just for showing up, you know? And then at the same time I noticed in the workforce, younger employees that were coming in who were like, where's my promotion? I'm here. It's connected, right? And so I started to do a lot of research, and I realized that for 20, 30 years we have been raising kids from a self-empowerment standpoint, to not expose them to risks and failing and all of these things, yet the most successful people in the world have gone through really tough times to get there, and so I went down this journey of interviewing some really incredible people, like from Condoleezza Rice through to Bode Miller, the skier, through to Mister Cartoon who's a tattoo artist, like all people who are top of their game at what they do. To basically weave together what were the commonalities that got them there to help educate another generation of how to do the same for themselves, and then also applied it to business, so take those themes and how do you bring that to life as a leader within your team to get the most results out of your organization. >> Well it was surprising, well I guess it's not surprising how many people in our industry that are high performers, executives, that are also extreme athletes, whether they're extreme cyclists. Ran into a group of people the other day, one of the cycler's says, "You know what "my biggest complaint about the iPhone is? "It only lasts three hours." >> Yeah, yeah, I get that. >> That same attitude extends out. One question about innovation. How do you guys consider or approach innovation in a market that, like cycling is pretty straight forward, get on a bike and you run, or if you're not directly creating equipment, how do you guys consider innovation, is it just physical, is it data, is it services, what's the approach? >> All of the above, right? And what I love about being in this category, I've been in sports and fitness for 20 years. I was at Nike, I was at Gatorade, and now I'm at Flywheel, and what I love is innovation is all about are we making the athlete better, period. And so it's such a clear filter and that may be through data that gives you insights of how you rode today versus yesterday, what did you eat, did that make the ride better or worse, or it may be, in the case of Nike and Gatorade, the products you put on your body, in your body, like they're all in service of helping you be better and I think it enables us to sort of not get distracted by the sort of, oh, this is the cool hip thing right now that everyone's doing in every category, and instead go is that helping to make an athlete better, is it motivating them, is it helping them physically, is it essentially getting them better results? >> Alright. Sarah Robb O'Hagan, thank you so much for joining us. >> It's been fun. >> We definitely have to check out your area before we wrap up. We'll be back with lots more coverage here from Nutanix .NET's 2018 in New Orleans, for Keith Townsend. I'm Stu Miniman, thanks for watching theCUBE! (light electro music)

>>from around the globe. It's the queue with digital coverage of Docker Con Live 2020 brought to you by Docker and its ecosystem partners. Everyone welcome back to Docker Con 2020 Docker Con 20. I'm John Furrier, host of the Cube. We're here for virtual event docker con docker, con dot com, and check out all the great footage. And also great guests were talking to all the major thought leaders and people in the industry making it happen as we have this new reality, a great guest and a great segment here from Engine. It's now part of F five, Robb said. Who's the vice president? Product management Sydney, thanks for coming on this segment. Appreciate you taking the time to chat with us. >>No problem. Happy to be here >>so and UNIX Everyone that does development knows about you. Guys have been very popular product with developers. Number one in the Docker hub will get to that later on this segment. So it's known really in the industry is really easy, easy to use and very reliable component of cloud native and cloud, if you will Anything that working So So I got I got to ask you with the new reality we're living with Covert 19 we now see the new reality that's now apparent to everyone in the world that with new work style, working at home VPNs are under provision now. People working from home, more service area with security. The at scale problems are surface for the executives and business, saying, We need to figure this new reality out because this is not going to change. It's going to move to hybrid when it comes back. But ultimately it exposes and highlights the opportunities around cloud native and kind of shows the operating model of how applications are going to be using. So I think this is going to be mainstream trend for what used to be an inside baseball kind of industry. Conversation around micro services, containers, docker containers, kubernetes. This is all now a tailwind for what will be a massive surge in new APS. I want to get your thoughts and reaction to that as you guys are in the middle of it with your product and the developers would have to build new value on top of it. What's your reaction? >>Yeah, I think you're absolutely right. We're also dealing with our own version of this new way of working right. We're also working from home and working remotely and seeing how that impacts us. But as we think about our customers and the folks that leverage in genetics, we started with scaling applications. We have 10 X solution that made it easier to deploy an application, have it scale in a very efficient way. And so it's folks are moving online more and more, relying more on staying connected, no matter where they're working from. Providing that capability is something that's going to continue to be core and will increase in importance. And these folks are looking to build more modern applications or modernize what they already have. Leveraging our technologies is just a natural extension. It's the technology they're already familiar with. They've been relying on it for many years and, you know, as they look to the future, has the capabilities they need to continue to rely on it going forward. >>What are some of the new things that you're working on? You can share with the audience because you're known for tried and true, very reliable. Okay, now you got micro services, which is emerging and very dynamic, literally, figuratively. So what's the new stuff? What do you guys focused on? Can you share some insights into how you're thinking about it and some things that you're doing? >>Yeah, a big part of what we're focusing on is really taking with headaches that come with scaling up applications, especially in the modern world. Now, those headaches are all about understanding the complexity of these new applications, being in the confidence needed to be able to deploy them at scale and understand not only what they're doing, but make sure that if something were to go wrong, they could figure out what was happening. And so, as we think about the investments we're making at the help folks modernize versus just making it easier to employ at modern applications of scale, which is one category of things, second is making sure that you have a really strong understanding of how the application is really working, so that, you know, with if it breaks, it could be fixed quickly. But there opportunities to improve it. We can quickly see the impact of it, and, you know, there's a lot of capabilities we're building in on those two dimensions. And in the third dimension, I would say is around security. I think there's a lot of new surface area. It's being exposed as folks start to build more micro services based applications. And you know, with the technology we have way allow people to buy both rich security capabilities as well as very surgical capabilities, depending on where they need the right functionality. >>And the container business has been really great ride to watch the rise of containers that really someone who has been in software engineering since I was 17. You know, the old way of systems thinking is modernized with containers, and you saw that the beginning of a surge of a sea change Now, actually, with micro services, you just pointed out it's gonna create a whole nother level level of head room. But containers really brought in this notion of making systems work better together, and I think that's really been a great boon for developers. So I got to ask you, you know, Docker containers and now kubernetes on this trend, you guys have been very popular, if not the most popular downloaded container in the hub, and so you've been super popular developers. So what happens next? First? Well, why is that the case and talk to the developers? Why will you continue to be popular? What do you guys have got to keep that that satisfaction going. Why so popular? And how are you going to keep that rolling? >>Yeah, I think. Why so popular? I think we've been fortunate to ride the wave of trusted solutions, right? So folks were already leveraging us for their critical applications. I've been very critical location. It's natural to look to that same text technology as you move to new environments. And, yeah, we've been very fortunate. Teoh have folks continue to trust us with their applications as they move to new environments as a containerized things. And we appreciate that. And we continue to invest in making sure that our feature set is just as capable in those environments as it is anywhere else. And in addition to that, we do invest heavily in making sure that our capabilities and those in the container, space and micro services space specifically, are you staying ahead of where there's a lot of work we're doing to support the next generation capabilities that folks want to be able to leverage but aren't necessarily yet. And that scales from kind of near term things like like G rpc all the way out to HDP three. That's on the horizon. So as we look at the space, we're privileged to have the footprint already. But at the same time, we're not resting on our laurels. We're absolutely investing and making sure that we allow folks to continue to deliver that high quality, high performance application experience no matter what environment they choose to use. >>You know, you know, this whole covert crisis brings up the glass is half full or half empty, depending on your view is you know that due to the two worlds are certainly getting more collision oriented when it come together. The CSO level size of sides of the business and the developer side. We've always said for years other developers on the front lines and it's true, have been cloud native and cloud has been great for developers, but now more than ever, the conversation having on the business side would CSO CIO, CIO, CSO, or whatever have been Hey, my house is on fire after I don't have worry about I don't need to worry about the appliances and what's going on in my kitchen. I need to save my business. And so they're then gonna call the developers to the table. And you're seeing this this kind of formation of critical path thinking around OK, we need to come out of this crisis on a reinvention growth trajectory, which brings the developers into the mix even faster. So I want to get your thoughts on that because, you know, what does that actually mean? Are they gonna be called in for projects? I mean, what's the media's look like? Because you have a zoom meeting or whatever this is going to be now a new dynamic, A new psychology of the business models of these companies with developers are going to be very active leaders in that new role. Because the virtualized world, now that we live in, is going to be different. The applications have more demands and more more needs more capabilities. So take us through your thinking on this and what what should developers expect when they get called to those meetings? >>Yeah, I think you know the trend that we're seeing that's going to accelerate. I believe as a result of this is the internal transformation. So there's a lot of technologies that developers already leverage be able to deliver that absent. There's technologies that they'd like to be able to leverage more and more, especially if they're using more modern environments. And that tends to come into sharp relief against the legacy infrastructure that exists in the legend legacy tooling that oftentimes exists in large organizations. And so, as organizations start to see, not only about the in the world has changed prior to code, and they need to modernize and transform. I think you know this. This crisis will also spur folks toe really put more thought into how they operate. We're already looking at from the remote work perspective, but also the agility that businesses really want to be able to have but traditionally have been prevented from having. And so I think that the developers are really gonna have an opportunity here to really drive that agile change they want to see in an organization so they can get the capabilities they want help to market quickly. That's going to require new tools, new processes within the organization and those types of things that we're fully supported about. We work in legacy environments, work in modern environments. We allow companies to be as agile as they like to be. I think developers have a really good opportunity here to really be leaders of that change. >>That's awesome. Great insight. So let's talk about the developer side. I'll put my developer hat on for a second here. Sydney. OK, The business guys came to me. We're gonna We're gonna do more cool stuff. I get that. That's totally relevant. Very good insight there. But now in the developer and I have been working with engineers, and I know of Engine X. What's in it for me? What's in it for me? The developer? What do I need to know about Engine X now for me, as a developer, going forward? >>Look, I mean, way come from a really strong, open source tradition. And you know the main reason folks use our solutions. Because if we take headaches away right, I mean, we're a tool that allows folks to deliver their applications, deploy their applications without having to worry about the mechanics. And so for the developers, you know what's in it for you is you build, the application will take care of. The rest will make sure it gets delivered with the controls that are required with security and authentication is required. We operate as an extension of your application. We provide a lot of nice things in the front door. All the way back to you know, into the bedroom is technically a spark, as the application infrastructure is concerned. But, you know, we take care of that common infrastructure. They keep infrastructure set of capabilities needed. That application. Developers can simply focus on building the best applications they can, and we'll make sure that they were >>awesome. Now let's get into the F five acquisition combination with Engine X. What does that do for you guys? As a change of capabilities as it increased more head room for solutions? Is there a new joint tech take us through some of the impacts of that combination? >>Yeah, so it's been a good right. It's been just over a year since the deal closed, and we've been aggressively investing in scaling up the vision that we had previously have. We really want to bring applications to life. You make it so that your application not only scalable and highly available, but it's able to adapt over time. And that, of course, would require input from operations teams, of course, but you know, we're trying to make sure that folks have the ability to operate their applications under any circumstances, whether they're being attacked, whether they're under high demand, whether people are moving all over the place, and we're really trying to make it so that the application is essentially bullet proof. So with that five, we have the ability to invest more in that road map in that vision, in addition to bringing on some pretty cool, complimentary capabilities. One of the things that we're really happy to see is the rich security capabilities that five have has that we're now able todo leverage with the Internet solutions side by side, providing no again new ways to get really advanced security capabilities into the right places in your application greeting. Yeah, >>great insights. I really appreciate that That commentary love to get your thoughts on just something that's always been near and dear to my heart, being cloud world since the early days and trying stuff. Now it's fully enterprise ready and doing all sorts of new things that multi cloud hybrid. But remember the days back when Dev Ops was kind of debated? All that is the day of is it ops? And it always had that Dev ops kind of. I'm an operations person or a devil developer. That's kind of generally been resolved in the sense that infrastructure is code is kind of resolve that. But now, with the Covad crisis, you're seeing operations clearly front and center again, right? So you got security ops now coming online, networking up. So I think the new reality and the edge exploding people are home. That's technically an edge. Perimeter security is now the edge point. More and more edge is more and more network traffic is getting more and more complicated. This >>is >>put bring up a lot of conversation around. What is the new formula As you navigate this, how do you attack the problem? Space is how do you create solutions? Is there a playbook? Is there anything that you could share in terms of this new thinking? Because it's gonna be a new trajectory. I think this is an inflection point came from explosions coming of APS. I believe we've been reporting on that. But the thinking has to change. It's going to be pretty crazy. What's your what's your thoughts on this? >>Yeah, I think folks are getting more and more experience with this new way of working on infrastructure of code is absolutely here. Um, automation is absolutely your orchestrations. Absolutely here. And so I see no more and more of these capabilities will get stitched together. And as I said earlier, you know this this organizational transformation It's all about taking the human more and more out of the loop for certain things to be ableto benefit or to the benefit of being able to move more quickly, but in a predictable way. So you're living failures that come with moving quickly. But you're getting that elasticity that you really want. And so, yeah, I think there's more, more adoption of practices. It's not gonna be overnight for folks. But I do think again, this this crisis is gonna give folks an opportunity to really take a deeper look at how they've been operating and where they want to get to, and it's gonna provide an opportunity to accelerate that move, >>you know, from a developer's perspective. The tried and true form of making something complex, easy with us through abstractions making highly performing and highly available. Always a good formula, right? I mean, as the world gets more complex, you still got to move packets around. You still got to run applications. It's just gonna be that tried and true formula of reduce the complexity, make things easier but makes things run faster, make things runs higher scale. This seems to be the play book. What's your thoughts? >>Yeah, absolutely. You know, things that once were hard to becoming easy. And I think we look back three years. Five years from now, we'll see a world that's that's even more automated, moving much more quickly. And some of the things that look difficult now are gonna become commoditized, right? So, you know, as I talked about bringing applications of life and making applications more resilience, more able to protect themselves more ableto, he'll defend all that kind of stuff. The things that the advanced things that we're doing now that folks are playing with will become the easy things, and we'll have new challenges to focus on, especially as we look at things like Ai. We're really starting to get a sense for some of the capabilities we can apply Teoh impact application behaviors and performance. But once you get to the point where you build up a good library of capabilities now, you really have a nice playbook that can become a foundation for even more advanced things. >>Yeah, build that foundation. Scale it up. It's beautiful scales and new competitive Advantage. Lovett Final question. Just take a minute to give the plug for Engine X. Really appreciate your insights here in this segment on this new reality, this new new developer environments going to be huge. Give the plug for engines. What are you guys working on? What should people know about share? What's happened? >>Yeah, so Internet spent, you know, the last decade plus making applications work at scale. I'm really focused now on making applications easy and bringing them to life. And so, you know, the laser focus we have is on taking away the headaches that folks might have, you know, as they try to scale up on their applications. So we're focused on that space we're focused on taking with headaches that folks have is they're trying to make sure that the applications more secure we're taking away the headaches of folks have is they're dealing with complexity of applications. Um, and 80 eyes. You know, that's that's the hottest thing. Right now, people are talking about applications, but they're actually talking about AP eyes that needs to be leveraged, to be able to make their applications really saying so, you know, in all of those spaces, our focus is on making modernization much easier And taking where the headaches associated with doing so. >>Sidney, wrap side with VP of product management at engine X now part of F five. Great conversation. Um, him up on Twitter. He's out there. Great conversation with the community. Really appreciate you taking the time. Thank you. >>Thank you. >>Okay. Him up on Twitter? If any questions jump into the event, this is Docker con 2020. I'm John Furrier here in the Palo Alto studios. Getting all the moat interviews as fast as we can get them to you. Here is Docker con segment. Thanks for watching. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah

>> from our studios in the heart of Silicon Valley. PALO ALTO, California It is a cute conversation, >> living welcome to this special Cuba conversation in Palo Alto, California We're here with our friends on Twitter and influences in the cloud computing edge and open source game. We have our distinguished power panel here talking about if every tech company, every company should be a tech company. And what does it mean in the air of a modern infrastructure? Police to have my kale with ct of everest dot org's from most Gatto's California Rob Hirschfeld, founder and CEO of Rock n Calling in From Where You Calling in from >> Austin, Texas. >> Austin, Texas. Good to have you and Mark Theo Who's with EJ Gravity brand New opportunity. Congratulations calling in Las Vegas. Thanks for coming in, guys. Thanks for spending the time on this cube power panel from the influencers. Always great to see you guys on Twitter with this morning. I woke up, was very active at a Crouch said earlier this morning. And Mark, you wrote a post that got my attention. So I think you hit a nerve that has been sparking around the Internets around the role of technology as couples, they're starting to rethink and building out there enterprise architectures in their businesses. And we're seeing some signals around cybersecurity. Dev Ops certainly has been kind of banging on this drum with cloud computing, and that is that the role of technology plays as a percentage of the business part of the business. And your tweet was simply put, you said every bit. If every business needs to become a tech business, it business has to decide to own its own infrastructure something of that effect, which which triggered me because it's like That's a good question. It isn't just a part of an organization supporting it. Tech is becoming much more instrumental. So I want to get your reaction. What was the motivation behind that tweet? What's your what's your What was your point around it? >> Yeah, I mean, like many of my tweets, they're poorly worded and rushed out, so you know, it's not as clear as it could have been. But the real point of the message wasn't Thio highlight that a technology company has to be all in the cloud or has to own its infrastructure, but rather as a company makes a change towards becoming a technology company. I mean, if we go back Thio you know, 1995 or 1996 when we wanted a library, we went to the library. But now we have Google. We didn't know that Google was gonna become an online the equivalent of a library. But it became a digital company before anybody asked for that solution or anybody was running that kind of solution in some sort of company format and then changed it over. But, you know, Google Facebook, Microsoft's into it. Adobe PayPal. We could go down the long list there. All I t cos in the end, whether you call the technology that they built to run their businesses engineering with a CTO or I t. Is the material. They are in fact, large giant I t organizations that do what they do to make money. And so, as more companies look to make the change as digital transformation takes hold as more efforts are presented to try to get a closer handle on customers to build loyalty with customers, create new engagement models, maybe at the edge, even in traditional application environments, then companies have to make a decision about how they're going toe oh, nightie and whether they're goingto own any portion of the infrastructure of I T. And if they're going to do that, then I don't think that there's any question that they have to own it. Atleast following a model of the way the large providers and the facebooks, et cetera have provided for us cannot continue. In other words, what I've been known to say before, we can't continue to throw more hardware and people at the problem. >> My mike, I want to get your thoughts on this because one of the things that I know you have been involved a lot with security on dhe I t. As well in security, which which is a canary in the coal mine. For a lot of these architectural decisions are all kind of looking at how they hire and build on premise in house around tech stacks. And one of the things that became apparent to me at Amazon Aws reinforce, which is their Amazons first cloud security conference, was most of the ceases. When I talk privately was saying, we don't really believe in multi cloud. We have multiple clouds, but We're investing in people on certain stacks that fit our guiding principles of what we're building as a company. And they said we then go to the suppliers and saying, Here's the AP eyes we want you to support So you start to see the shift from being hiring the general purpose software vendors to come in and supply them with I t stuff Were hardware. As Mark pointed out, too much more, the customer saying No, no, this is our spec build that we built it. And so the trend that points to the trend of a reinvestment of building tech at the core of the business, which would imply to Mark's point around their tech companies. What's your thoughts on this? >> So a nuance. My answer. I think their tech enabled companies more than tech companies like Tech is enabling, whether it's Google or into it or pay power of the other companies. Mark mentioned technologies the base of their companies stack, um, then to go into your security portion, security has to be architected and embedded into the core solutions not bolted on after the fact with vendor solutions like it is today, and I think we've proven time and time again, including the capital one issue as a day or two ago that the current approaches are not working. And, uh, I agree with whomever See says you've been talking thio like being driving a P I integrations and be consumptive of them and telling what you need to build is a much better approach. Would you want to build a custom house with that actually talking to your builder and finding out later? What? What features and pictures have been installed in your home. But what do you wanna have a hand in that from the ground up? I think that's the mischief. >> Well, I want to come back to the capital. One point that's gonna be a separate talk track. So let's hold that thought. Rob, I want to go to you. Because StarBeat Joel, whose prolific on these threads you know, posting is nice Twitter cards on their um, he said, If you know, talk about leasing out extra capacity in a private data centers question Mark, you know, teasing out the question. And then Ben Haines responded and said, Why the hell would you want to be in that business when you have a real business to run again to what Mark was saying about, You know, Tech is going to be everywhere. Why should I even be in the data center? Because I don't want to be in that business. I gotta figure out Tech for the business. So Ben kind of brings that practitioner perspective. What's your thought? Because you're in the middle of this with the devil's movement. Bare metal, big part of it, Your thoughts. >> Yeah, And that's why we really focus on fixing the bear mental problem. Andi, I want to come back to where a bear metal fits with all this because you really can't get away from bare metal. I think the first question is really is every day to send is every business in I t business. And you know, not every business is a Google and strictly a nighty business. But what we're seeing with machine learning and Internet of things and just extension of what was traditionally siloed I t or data center, I t into everyday operations. You can't get away from the fact that if you're not able to take in the data, work with the data, manipulate and understand what your customers were doing. Then you are going to be behind. That's That's how you're gonna lose. You're gonna be out of business on. So I think that what we're doing is we're redefining business into not just a product that you're selling, but understanding how your customers air interacting with that product, what value they're getting from it. We really redefined supply chain in a very transformative way compared to anything else. And that's an I T enabled transformation. >> Ben brings up a good point, but the Brent wanted Friends Point is essentially teasing out mark and yourself a bare metal. All this stuff is complicated. Cut and make investments. Ben's teasing as What the hell business do you want to be in? I think that becomes a lot of this digital transformation. Conversation is Hey, Cloud is an easy decision. We were start up 10 years ago. We don't have I t. We have 50 plus people on growing. We're all in the cloud. That's fine for us. Dropbox started in the cloud. All these guys started class. It's easy as hell to do it. No, no debate there. But as you start thinking, Maurin Maur integration as a big enterprise which wasn't born in the cloud. This is where the transformations happening is what business? What the hell they doing? What's what's the purpose of their >> visit? Yeah, but the reality of you, a cloud infrastructure and how cloud infrastructure is structured does not really take you away from owning how you operate and run that infrastructure, right Amazons than an amazing marketing job of telling everybody that they're not smart enough to run their own infrastructure. And it's just not true way definitely let operations get very lax. We built up a lot of technical debt that we we need to be able to fix. An Amazon walked in and said, This is too hard for you. Let us take it off your plate. But the reality is people using Amazon still have toe owned their operations of that infrastructure. The capital one didn't doesn't get to just get a pass and say, I used Amazon. Oh, well, Too bad. Talk to them. You still own your infrastructure. >> Technically, it wasn't Amazons fall, so let's get the capital. One is this brings up a good point. Converged infrastructure was the Holy Grail, savior for the I t If you go back when we started doing Cuba interviews, stupidity and I would talk about converged is awesome. You got Nutanix kicked ass and grew like crazy. And so then you have the converge kind of meat's maker. When it sees the cloud, it's like, OK, I got great converged infrastructure, but yet the breach on capital one had nothing to do with a W s. It was basically an s three bucket that the firewall Miss configured. So it was really Amazon was a victim of its simplicity there. I mean, there's a >> I mean, this is this is what we're talking about with. To me with this tweet is that we need to look, we need to be better at operating the infrastructure we have, whether it's Amazon or physical assets on your premises. What we've really done is we've eroded our ability to manage those pieces well and do it in a way that builds on itself. And so as soon as we can get on improvement there, I mean, this this is where I went with this threat is if we can really improve our operational efficiency with the infrastructure we have, whether it's in the cloud on premises. You create benefits there than everything you build on top of that is gonna have a nim prove mint, right. We're gonna change the way we look at infrastructure. Amazons already done that on. We think about infrastructure in cloud terms, but I don't think that what they've done is the end destination. They just taught us how to be better running infrastructure. >> Well, it brings up that it brings up the point, and I have so Mike shaking his head to get his thought and mark on this. If I is that I tease problem our operational technologies problem because the world's not as simple as it used to be. It was not. It wasn't. It's not simple. You got edge. You get externally incest cloud players now multi cloud. So information technology teams and operational technology teams whose fault is it? Who is responsible thing? Could you just had a AI bots managing the the filtering and access to history buckets that could have been automated away? What, Whose problem was it? Operations, technology or I t. >> So that I think, to touch upon what Rob was talking about. There's my chain and technology, uh, from the classic sound byte is people process and technology. The core cause of literally every security breach, including capital one is a lack of sophisticated process and the root cause being people, and there's no amount of a I currently that can fix that. So you have to start focusing on your operational supply chain processes, which has, Rob said. Amazon has really solidified, and the company should look to emulate that forces trying to emulate the cloud infrastructure and some of your processed and your people challenges first. And then you can leverage the technology. >> Great point. Totally agree with you on that one >> market. Yeah, I would agree with everything that both Mike and Rob just said, and I would just add that we we don't have any choice but to face the future. That is, I t. And in order to provide the best possible service to our customers for our applications that even haven't been built yet, we have to look at the service is that are available to us and utilize them the best way possible and then find appropriate management and, like so correctly put it supply chain processes for managing them. So I've talked to people who are building unique cloud platforms internally to solve a specific business problem in ways that the individual clouds offered by the Big Three is an example can't do or can't do as well or can't do is cheaply. And the same thing applies to customers who are just using more than one of the big cloud providers. Even for some in some cases, for workloads. That might seem similar because each of the clouds provide a different opportunity associated with that specific set of requirements. And so we don't have any choice but to manage it better. And whether it's we make a choice to use it in our data center because it's more cost effective long term. And that's our single most important driver. Or whether we decide to leverage every tool in our tool belt, which includes a handful of cloud providers. And some we do our own, um, or we put it all in one cloud. It doesn't change our responsibility for owning it correctly, right? And my simple message really was that you have to figure out how to own and I'll steal from Mike again. You have to figure out how to own that supply chain. But more lower down more base is ifs. Part of that supply chain is delivering compute into a data center or environment that you own. Then you have to find the tools capabilities to ensure that you're not making the kind of mistakes that were made with capital or >> or, if you have tools are networks and tools you don't know and look at the quotes. So called scare with the China hack from Super Micro. That's a silly why chain problems? Well, it's on the silicon. So again, back to the process, people an equation. I think that's right on this brings us kind of through the next talking track. I want to get your thoughts on, which is cloud two point. Oh, I mean, I'm putting that term out there on Lee is a provocative way. Remember, Web to point. It works so well in debating about what it what it was. If one if cloud one data was Amazon Web service is, thank you very much. Public cloud. You could say cloud two point. Oh, our second inning would be just what happens next because you're seeing now a confluence of different dynamics edge, um, security, industrial edge. And then you know this all coming into on premises, which is hybrid and public, all working together. And then you throw multi cloud in there from a complexity standpoint. Do you wanna have support Microsoft's Stack, Azure Stack, Google and Amazon? This is this is the fundamental 2.0 question. Because things are more real time. Things are data specific. This costs involved. There's really network innovation needed what you guys thoughts on cloud to point out. >> I think the basic cloud 2.0, is moving to the shared responsibility model. And we should stop blaming people for teams for breaches as architectures become much more complex, including network computing, storage and in service orchestration layers like kubernetes, no one team or individual, individual or one team and manage all of that. So you're all responsible for infrastructure, scalability, performance and security. So I think it's the cultural movement more than the technology movement at the base of >> Rob. What's your definition? Cloud 2.0, from your perspective. >> Oh boy, I've been calling it Post Cloud Is my feeling on this? Yeah, it to me. It's it's about rethinking the way we automate. Um, you know, we really learned that we had to interact with infrastructure via automation and eliminate the human risk elements of. This doesn't mean that we have an automation is foolproof either It's not, but what? What I think we've seen is that people have really understood that we have to bring the type of automation and power that we're seeing in clouding the benefits because they're very riel. But back into everything that we do. There's no doubt in my mind that infrastructure is moving back into the environment. Where is what? Which is EJ from my perspective, and we'll see computing in a much more distributed way and those benefits and getting that right in the automation. Is this necessary to run autonomous zero touch infrastructure in environmental situations. That is gonna be justice transformative, freighted that that environment makes the cloud look easy. Frankly, >> Mark, what's your take? I want to get because, you know, security houses, one element get self driving cars. You got kind of a new front end of of EJ devices, whether it's a Serie Buy Me a song on iTunes, which has to go out to a traditional system and purchase a song. But that that Siri priest is different than what? The back end? Does this simply database, Get it? Moving over self driving cars, You're seeing all kinds of EJ industrial activity. You know, the debate of moving compute to the data. You got Amazon with ground station, all these new infrastructure physical activities going on that needs software to power it. What, you're in cloud to point. It seems to be a nice place not just for analytics, but for operational thing. Your thoughts on cloud to point out >> Well, I mean you you describe the opportunity relatively well. I could certainly go in. I've spent a lot of time going into detail about what EJ might mean and what might populate edge and why people would use it. But I think from if we just look at it from a cloud 2.0, standpoint, maybe I'm oversimplifying. But I would say, you know, if you add on to what Mike and Rob already so well pointed out is that it's best fit right, it's best fit from compute location, Thio CPU type Thio platform on, and historically, for I t they've always had to make pragmatic choice is that I believe, limit their ability on Helped to create Maur you know, legacy Tech that they have to manage, um on and create overhead tech debt, as they call it on DSO. I think judo. And in my book the best case for two Dato is that I can put best fit work where I need it when I need it for as long as I need it. >> That's that's really kind of gasp originals. Well, people got to get the software stood up. That's where I think Kubernetes has shown a nice position. I want to extend this track to another thought, another topic around networking. So if you look at the three pillars of computing computing mean industry, compute storage and networking, cloud one daughter, you can say pretty much compute storage did a good job. Amazon has a C two as three. Everything went great. Networking always got taken to the wood shed. You know, networking was getting, you know, people were pissing and moaning about networking. But if you look at kind of things were just talking about networking seems to be an area that this cloud 2.0, could innovate on. So wanna get each of your thoughts on? If you could throw the magic wand out there around the network doesn't take the same track as Dev ops that gets abstracted away because you see VM wear now doing deals. All the cloud providers they got they're going after Cisco with the networking PCC Cisco trying to be relevant. The big guys you got edge, which is power and network connection. You need those things. So what is the role of the network? And two point If you guys could wave the magic wand and have something magically happen or innovate, what would it be? >> Oh, wait, it's part complaining. It's your world. You know, it's ironic that I said this Thio competitors to my most previous company. Ericsson Company was away. They asked me after an event in San everything was a cloud expo. I just got off stage and the gentleman came up to me and asked me So mark you the way you talked about Cloud. I appreciate the comments you made yada, yada, yada. But what do you think about networking? And I said Well, network big problem right now is that you can't follow cloud assumptions as faras usage characteristics and deployment characteristics with networking. When that problem is solved, will have moved light years ahead in how people can use and deploy i t. Because it doesn't matter if you can define workload opportunity in 30 minutes on an edge device somewhere or on a new set of data centers belonging to Google or 10 Cent or anybody else. If you can't treat the network with same functionality and flexibility and speed to value that, you can the cloud then, um, it's Unfortunately, you're really reducing your opportunity and needlessly lengthening the time to value for whatever activity it is. You're really >> so network, certainly critical in 2.0, terms have absolutely that Mike any any thoughts there? >> So I think you know, there's there's easy answers to this that are actually the answer. You know, I P v six was the answer from a couple years ago, and that hasn't solved in the fantasy of the solved. All the problems, just like five G is not gonna magically transform our edge infrastructure into this brilliant network. The reality is, networking is hard and it's hard because there's a ton of legacy embedded stuff that still has to keep working. You can't just, you know, install a new container on container system and say, I've now fixed networking. You have to deal with the globally interconnected MASH insistence. I think when we look at networking, we have to do it in a way that respects the legacy and figures out migration strategies. One of the biggest problems I see that a lot of our technology stacks here is that they just assume we're gonna pave over the problems of yesteryear, nor them and with network, when you don't get that benefit, what you described with cloud networking, never living up the potential, it's because cloud networking isn't club networking. It's it's, you know, early days of the Internet. Networking is still what we use today. It's not. It's not something you can just snap your fingers and disrupt. >> Well, I mean, networking had two major things that were big parts of a networking and who build networks knows you provisioned them and you have policy stuff that runs on them, right? You moving paintings from A to B, then you got networks you don't own right so that's kind of pedestrian, old thinking. But if you want to make networks programmable to me, it just seems like they just seem to be so much more there that needs to be developed, not just moving package. Well, >> you just said it's traditional. Networks were built first, and the infrastructure was then built around them or leveraging them, so you need to take like in zero. Trust paper. When Bugsy Siegel built Las Vegas, he built the town first and then put the roads around the infrastructure. So you need to take that approach with networking. You need to have the core infrastructure of first and then lay down the networking around to support it. And, as Mark said, that needs to be much more real time or programmable. So moving from ah, hardware to find to a software to find model, I think, is how you fix networking. It's not gonna be fixed by a new protocol or set of protocols or adding more policies or complexity to it, >> so you see a lot of change then, based on that, I'd take away that you see change coming to networking in a big way because Vegas we're gonna build >> our if it has to happen. The current way is not working. And that's why we need the bottlenecks. Wherever >> Mark you live in is the traffic's brutal. But, you know, still e gotta figure out, You know, they got some more roads. The bill change coming. What are your thoughts on the change coming with this networking paradigm >> show? I mean, there are a few companies in the space already. I'm going to refuse to name anyway at this point because one of them is a partner of my new company, not my new company, but the new company I work for and I don't want to leave them out of the discussion. But there are several companies in the space right now that are attempting to do just then just that from centralized locations, helping customers to more rapidly deploy network services to and from cloud or two and from other data centers in a chain of data centers. Programmatically as we've talked about. But in the long run, your ability to lay down networking from your office without having to create new firewall rules and spend months on on contract language and things like that on being able to take a slice of the network you already have and deploy it on DDE, not have to go through the complex Mpls or Or VPN set ups that are common today on defectively reroute destinations when you want to or make new connections when you need to. Is far as I'm concerned, that's vital to the success of anything we would call a cloud two point. Oh, >> well, we're gonna try tracks when he's hot startups. So you guys see anyone around this area? I love this topic. I think it's worth talking a lot more about love. Love to continue on with you guys on that another. Another time. Final five minutes. I'd love to spend with you guys talking about the the digital transformation paradox. Rob, we're talking before we came on camera. He loved this paradox because it's simply not as easy to saying Kill the old man, bringing the new and everything's gonna be hunky dorey. It's not that simple, but but it also brings up the fact that in all these major waves, the hype outlives the reality, too. So you're seeing so I want to get your thoughts on digital transformation. Each of you share your thoughts on what's come home to be realistic in digital transformation, which what hasn't showed up yet in terms of benefits and capability. >> I mean, this is this to me is one of the things that we see happen in every wave. They people jump on that bandwagon really hard, and then they tell everybody who's doing the current stuff, that they're doing it wrong. Um, and that that to me, actually does a lot more heart. What we what we've seen in places where people said, burn the boats, you know, we don't care. They have actually not managed to get traction and not create the long term sustainability that you would get if you created ways to bring things forward. Networking is a good example for that, right? Automating a firewall configuration and creating a soft firewall or virtual network function is just taking something that people understand and moving it into a much more control perspective in a lot of ways. That's what we saw with Cloud Cloud took working I t infrastructure that people understood added some change but also kept things that people 1% and so the paradox. Is that you? Is it the more you tell people, they just have to completely disrupt and break everything they've done and walk away from their no nighty infrastructure, the less actually you create these long term values. And I know there are people who really know you got totally changed everything that disrupted value. But a lot of the disrupted value comes from creating these incremental changes and then building something on top of that. So what? So >> what did what Indigenous in digital transformation, what has happened? That's positive and what hasn't happened that was supposed to happen. >> So when I look att Dev ops on what people thought we were going to do, just automate all things that turned out to be a much bigger lift than people expected. But when we started looking at pipelines and deployment pipelines and something very concrete for that which let people start in one or two places and then expand, I think I think, uh, pipelines and build deploy pipelines are transformative, right? Going from a continuously integrated system all the way to a continuously integrated data center. Yeah, that's transformative. And it's very concrete just telling people automate everything is not been as effective >> guys. Other thoughts there on the digital >> transformation dream. I agree with everything that Rob just said, and I would just add just because, you know, it's the boarding piece that someone always has to say, and nobody in Tech everyone is he here? But you know, every corporation at one point or another in its Kurt in its life span faces a transformative period of time because of product change or a new competitor that's doing things differently, or has figured out a way to do it cheaper or whatever it is. And they usually make or break that transformation not because of technology, not because of whether they have smart people, not because of whether they implemented the newest solution, but because of culture and organizational motivation and the vast majority of like Everything, Rob said doesn't just apply to I. T. A lot of the best I T frameworks around Agile and Dev ops apply to how the rest of the organization can and should react to opportunity so that if I t can be and should be really time, then it only makes sense that the business should be able to be real time in responding to what is being created through I t systems. And right now I would argue that the vast majority of the 80% of transformations that don't see the benefit that they're looking for have nothing to do with whether they could have gotten the right technology or done the technology correctly. But it has to do with institutional culture and motivation. And if you can fix that, then the only piece all add on to that. That again I vociferously, really agree with Robin is that if you want to lower the barrier to entry and you want to get more people into this market, you won't get more people to buy more of your stuff and grow what they own. Then you have to be able to show them a path to taking, getting the most value out of what they already have. There is no doubt in my mind that that's the only way forward, and that's where some of the tools that we're talking about and what we're talking about today on Twitter or so important >> Mike final stops on the >> docks >> on your thoughts on the transmission paradox, >> so the paradox that Robb describe think is set, the contact is set incorrectly by calling it digital transformation should be digital revolution, where the evolution process doesn't end. Transformation makes people think that there's some end state, which means let's burn the votes. That's let's get rid of all over all on prime infrastructure moved to cloud and we're done. And really, that's only the beginning. Which is why we're talking about Cloud two point. Oh, do you have to take that approach that you want to have continuous evolution and improvements, which Segways into what Rob said about de box and automating all the things you don't automate your tasks and processes and you're done? You want to keep improving upon them. Figuring out how to improve the process is and then change the automation five that the is, Mark said. It's a cultural and mental shift versus trying to get to this Holy Grail and state of transforming transformation. >> Awesome. Well, why I got you guys here first off. Thanks for spending the time and unpacking these big issue. Well, two more of it. I'd >> love to just get >> your thoughts real quick on just your opinion of Capital One. The breach, survivability and impact of the industry. Since it's still in the news, who wants to jump for us? We'll start with Mike. Mike, start with you will go down the line. Mike, Robin Mara. >> I mean, the good news for Capital One is I don't think any personal information was breached that hasn't already been exposed by the various other massive reaches. Like I do my so security number as a throw away at this point which never should have been used for identity. But I want All >> right, So there were Do you think >> it's recoverable is not gonna be as critical, say, Equifax, which was brutal. >> It doesn't sound like there was negligence where Equifax seemed like it was Maura negligent driven than just ah ah, bad process or bad hygiene around a user or roll account and access to a certain subset of data. >> I mean, this was someone who stumbled upon open history bucket and said, >> Well, well, look at this >> bragging about it on Twitter and the user groups. I mean, this >> was like from from what the press said, I think there's other companies that may or may not be affected by this as well, so that it's just capital one, which will probably defuse the attention on them and lessen the severity or backlash. >> Rob your thoughts on Capital One. >> Yeah, I wish it would move the needle. I think that we have become so used to the security of breach of the week or the hardware. Very. You know, it is we We need to really think through what it's really gonna take toe treat security as a primary thing, which means actually treating operations and infrastructure and the human processes piece of this, um, and slowed down a little bit. Um, and I always saw >> 11 lawmaker, one congressman's woman said, More regulation. >> Yeah, they don't want this. I don't think regulation is the right is the right thing. I don't know exactly what it is because I think >> regularly, we don't understand. That's Washington, DC, >> But but we're building a very, very, very fragile I T infrastructure. And so this is not a security problem. It's a It's a fact that we've built this Jenga tower of I t infrastructure, and we don't actually understand how it's built, Um, and that I don't see that slowing down. Unfortunately, >> unlike Las Vegas is, Mike pointed out, it's was built with purpose. They built the roads around the town. Mark, you live there now What's your thoughts on this capital? One piece ends and >> I have been said I would say that what I'm hoping sort of like when you have, ah, a lack of employees for a specific job type. Like right now in United States, it's incredibly difficult to find a truck driver if you're a trucking company, So what does that mean? But that means it's gonna accelerate automation and truck driving because that's the best alternative, right? If you can't solve it the old way, then you find a new way to solve it. And we have an enormous number of opportunity. He's from a process standpoint, but also, from a technology standpoint, did not build on this. Pardon my French crap that we have already >> they were digital. Then, when I ruled by the FCC, >> had build it the right way from the start. >> Well, you know what was soon? How about self driving security? We needed guys. Thanks for spending the time this cube talk. Keep conversation. Appreciate time. Mike, Rob mark. Thanks for kicking it off. Thanks. >> Thank you. >> You're watching Cute conversation with promote guests. Panel discussion Breaking down. How businesses should look at technology as part of their business. Cloud 2.0, security hacks and digital transformation Digital evolution. I'm John free. Thanks for watching.