(upbeat music) >> We're back with Steve McDowell, the Principal Analyst for Data & Storage at Moor Insights and Strategy. Hey Steve, great to have you on. Tell us a little bit about yourself. You've got a really interesting background and kind of a blend of engineering and strategy and what's your research focus? >> Yeah, so my research, my focus area is data and storage and all the things around that, whether it's On-Prem or Cloud or, you know, software as a service. My background, as you said, is a blend, right? I grew up as an engineer. I started off as an OS developer at IBM. I came up through the ranks and shifted over into corporate strategy and product marketing and product management, and I have been doing working as an industry analyst now for about five years at Moor Insights and Strategy. >> Steve, how do you see this playing out in the next three to five years? I mean, cloud got it all started, it's going to snowballing. You know, however you look at it percent of spending on storage that you think is going to land in as a service. How do you see the evolution here? >> IT buyers are looking at as a service and consumption base is, you know, a natural model. It extends the data center, brings all of the flexibility all of the goodness that I get from public cloud, but without all of the downside and uncertainty on cost and security and things like that, right, that also come with the public cloud and it's delivered by technology providers that I trust and that I know, and that I worked with, you know, for, in some cases, decades. So, I don't know that we have hard data on how much adoption there is of the model, but we do know that it's trending up, you know and every infrastructure provider at this point has some flavor of offering in the space. So, it's clearly popular with CIOs and IT practitioners alike. >> So Steve, organizations are at a they're different levels of maturity in their, their transformation journeys, and of course, as a result, they're going to have different storage needs that are aligned with their bottom line business objectives. From an IT buyer perspective, you may have data on this, even if it's anecdotal, where does storage as a service actually fit in and can it be a growth lever? >> It can absolutely be a growth leader. It gives me the flexibility as an IT architect to scale my business over time without worrying about how much money I have to invest in storage hardware. Right? So I, I get kind of, again, that cloud like flexibility in terms of procurement and deployment, but it gives me that control by oftentimes being on site within my premise, and then I manage it like a storage array that I own. So, you know, it's beautiful for for organizations that are scaling and it's equally nice for organizations that just want to manage and control cost over time. So, it's a model that makes a lot of sense and fits and certainly growing in adoption and in popularity. >> How about from a technology vendor perspective? You've worked for in the tech industry for companies? What do you think is going to define the winners and losers in this space? If you running strategy for a storage company, what would you say? >> I think the days of of a storage administrator managing, you know, rate levels and recovering and things of that sort are over, right? What these organizations like Pure delivering but they're offering is simplicity. It's a push button approach to deploying storage to the applications and workloads that need it, right? It becomes storage as a utility. So, it's not just the, you know the consumption based economic model of as a service. It's also the manageability that comes with that or the flexibility of management that comes with that. I can push a button, deploy bites to you know a workload that needs it, and it just becomes very simple, right, for the storage administrator, in a way that, you know kind of old school On-Prem storage can't really deliver. >> You know, I want to, I want to ask you, I mean I've been thinking about this because again, a lot of companies are, are you know, moving, hopping on the as a service bandwagon. I feel like, okay, in and of itself, that's not where the innovation lives. The innovation is going to come from making that singular experience from On-Prem to the clouds across clouds maybe eventually out to the edge. Do you, where do you see the innovation in as a service? >> Well, there's two levels of innovation, right? One, is business model innovation, right? I now have an organizational flexibility to build the infrastructure to support my digital transformation efforts, but on the product side and the offering side, it really is as you said, it's about the integration of experience. Every enterprise today touches a cloud in some way, shape or form. Right, I have data spread, not just in my data center, but at the edge, oftentimes in a public cloud, maybe a private cloud. I don't know where my data is, and it really lands on the storage providers to help me manage that and deliver that manageability experience to to the IT administrators. So, when I look at innovation in this space, you know, it's not just a a storage array and rack that I'm leasing, right, this is not another lease model. It's really fully integrated, you know end to end management of my data and yeah and all of the things around that. >> Yeah, so to your point about a lease model is if you're doing a lease, you know, yeah. You can shift CapEx to OPEX, but you're still committed to you have to over provision, whereas here and I wanted to ask you about that. It's an interesting model, right, because you got to read the fine print. Of course the fine print says you got to commit to some level typically, and then if, you know, if you go over you you charge for what you use and you can scale that back down and that's got to be very attractive for folks. I wonder if you we'll ever see like true cloud like consumption pricing, that has two edges to it, right? You see consumption based pricing in some of the software models and you know yeah, people like it, the, the lines of business maybe because they're paying in by the drink, but then procurement hates it because they don't have predictability. How do you see the pricing models? Do you see that maturing or do you think we're sort of locked in on, on where we're at? >> No, I do see that maturing, right? And when you work with a company like Pure to understand their consumption base and as a service and you know, when you work with a company like Pure to understand their consumption base and as a service offerings, it really is sitting down and understanding where your data needs are going to scale. Right? You buy in at a certain level, you have capacity planning. You can expand if you need to. You can shrink if you need to. So, it really does put more control in the hands of the IT buyer than, well certainly then traditional CapEx based On-Prem, but also more control than you would get, you know working with an Amazon or an Azure. >> Well the next 10 years, it ain't going to be like the last 10 years. Thanks Steve! We'll leave it there for now. Love to have you back. Look at, keep it right there. You don't want to miss this next segment where we dig into the customer angle. You're watching theCube production of At Your Storage Service, brought to you by PureStorage. One more. Okay, thanks Steve! We'll leave it there for now. I'd love to have you back. Keep it right there, At Your Storage Service continues in a moment. You're watching theCube. (upbeat music)

>>live from Orlando, Florida It's the cue covering Microsoft Ignite Brought to you by Cohee City. >>Welcome back, everyone to the Cubes Live coverage of Microsoft IC night here at the Orange County Convention Center in Orlando, Florida I'm your host, Rebecca Knight, coasting along side of stew. Minutemen >>were joined by Patrick Moorehead. He is the founder and principal principal analyst. Atmore Insights and strategy Thank you so much for returning to the Cube. You're a good friend of the queue. >>Thanks for having me on. I mean, it's a great show, and I literally look for the Cube everywhere. >>Very nice. You >>do about 40 events year, and I'm pretty sure you're in >>about exactly, exactly. >>We've got a few more for you to cut. Come Thio. Yeah, in the other place. Year is >>not over. So so many announcements. Today, an 87 page book from From the Microsoft comes team. One of the things that is getting a lot of attention is azure arc. Satya Nadella himself said, I am so excited about this. This marks the beginning of hybrid computing. What are your first impressions of it, and are you able to see the immediate of differences between Stack and an arc >>S o. I think I would say completely expected. Uh, we're out of this drunken sailor mode where everything's going to the public cloud. Oh, my gosh. And everybody is toast. Who's not doing this? Okay, And now we're in this somewhat sober right where 80% of the workloads are still on Prem. And 20 of those have gone on to either SAS or I as or pass, but it's expected now. Microsoft already had a full stack i e azure stack, but this takes it up a notch because you been deployed arc anywhere on anybody's cloud. They even showed a demo of doing backups to eight of us. So whether it's on Prem, and I'm sure they're gonna show it running on GC, Pia's well >>so Patrick, For for a number years we've been saying, When you line up the big hyper scale er's and say who's doing well, a hybrid. Microsoft's been at the top of the list there because they have a strong footprint in my data center. Microsoft gave everyone the green light to go. Do sass is much you can because they're pushing everybody toe. 03 65. And, of course, Azure is growing in, You know, one of the leaders in Public Cloud. The announcements this week were compelling, but it may be kind of rethink is that I think you laid it out well and said, But we've been talking about hybrid cloud your number years, but we're not really there. So you are. It's a first piece. It's only in tech preview. I think you're saying for a singular application, which is databases. That's right. When you look out there and you see you know the VM wear on AWS Azure, Google, Oracle, IBM, you look a AWS with outposts and those things. How is Microsoft doing today at delivering for what customers need, you know today and moving forward on their cloud journey? >>So Microsoft was first out of the gate with azure stack, right? They were doing hybrid before it was cool. It was interesting for about two years when they were rolling in outer building it they weren't talking about it. So I was thinking, Wait a second, is it not catching on, or do they want to put more on the big cloud azure? But in fact they have been diligently working behind the scenes. And while they had to show Wall Street this Hayward, the public cloud, they were actively building out their hybrid opportunities. And I do believe that when it comes to the slice of hybrid they are leading right now. Now it depends on where you start. I guess where I do is their leading if you have a major public cloud. Okay, eight of us, obviously there were the outposts, and everybody in the audience were all in the audience. We gasped when Andy Jassy brought that out. We kind of knew something was being worked on and focus a CZ well. And I think to be a credible player you have tohave both implementations, going one way and going the other, being able to work with other people's clouds but also noticed everybody has their single pane of glass strategy. If you want to go all in on Microsoft, you have arc on dhe. That's really the classic Microsoft embrace and extend. >>Yeah, Patrick, you said, all in on Microsoft. And if I if I look at the enterprise, you've obviously got some Microsoft. There's probably some things you're doing. An azure right, You're you're running. 03 65. You know, there's lots of pieces in the more Microsoft portfolio, but most people aren't all in on anything today. That's right, The same thing. I looked at Antos and said in Google Cloud or in my data center shore. But anthros on AWS And >>no Veum no, no virtualized applications on Antos either. >>So the same question for Microsoft is if I'm in a W s, you know, have a big footprint of AWS. Is this gonna fly or you know what? What? What's your what's your take >>s? So it's funny where I've wound up after 30 years of doing this stuff is there's always gonna be a lock in. You just have to pick the lock and that you want. Some people are comfortable with an A p. I lock in. Some are comfortable with a hardware lock. In some people are comfortable with a development environment, and you're gonna pick one. Just what is it gonna be? The reality is in a Fortune 500. You're gonna have multiple panes of glass using to determine which two or which three are you comfortable with? Maybe all the panic last for deployment. Maybe we'll have a panic glass for ops. The interesting thing that I'm really looking for, though, is where this heads with multi cloud. Because I believe at least to my definition, multi cloud is kind of fiction if you talk about actually managing it because Dev ops are cool. But you know, when you got a multi cloud, you break Dev and you break ups. So this is a way Arc is a way to keep. If you buy into their Dev and the Rapps and their security, you would go all in on our. >>So I'm actually interested in what you were talking about with Microsoft going sort of working behind the scenes to Wall Street, presenting this one thing but really working behind the scenes and then talking about being at the conference in everyone, gasping at Andy Jassy how much our company's really paying attention to every birth of these companies in terms of their competition with each other to to be number one. >>Oh, they'll all say that they don't track the competition, but they all say they all have these massive competitive teams that are operating in a real time and I guarantee you all of Microsoft's competitors Aire watching all these are are here on doing that. Now I think the best companies are looking forward trying to change the game if they have to change the game. Trench vendors are really have been playing catch up mode, right? If you were 100% on Prem and you were talking about the public cloud, you're gonna be in trouble. I think, actually, oracles a great example of they're in trouble, particularly with I s I c databases of service. But it's like too little, too late. And I think they're paying the price right >>now. Patrick A Thanks for teeing up the Oracle piece because one of one of the topics that saga repeatedly talked about in the keynote was trust. It's actually the exponential t to the environment. If you talk about the ecosystem. Microsoft. If you look at the hyper scale, er's is probably more trust in others. We talk about people wanting to break up cos well, you know, we tried to break up Microsoft back years ago way know what happened there, and Oracle was up on stage it Oracle openworld saying you want to run or go on the cloud. Here's Azure. There are partner. We actually think that was a keep east of the jet ideal eyes enabling that environment. So the question I have for you is first, Do you agree that the ecosystem believes that Microsoft is more trusted? But what about customers? I think you actually made a tweet about it, right? Because I wonder, you know, historically speaking, Microsoft was not the most trusted. It was the one that, you know, I was right behind Oracle esta who I spent the most. Licensing money to Microsoft has changed. Are they trusted partner for companies building their strategy? >>I have to say, based on the last, we'll call it five years level of Microsoft Trust has raised. And there are other players who make Microsoft look like the super trust zone. Okay, I mean, in what they're maybe what they're doing in a breaking consumer privacy, Let's say, 95% of your businesses advertising right. >>Let's just say what you imagine this right? >>Having commercial offerings that are SAS offerings out there. I think you do have to ask the question, but But listen, I think, um, nobody's mother Theresa here. Okay, Everybody's trying to get business, but I do believe particularly Cincinnati has been here. Level has trust has has gone up, and I hear it from clients that I that I meet with all the time other people are on the naughty list for sure. Even those 95% advertising companies who haven't, let's say, done something. That's horrible. But it's just the notion that something could go wrong. I mean, enterprises, they're slow to adopt their very conservative and makes great fun. >>Exactly So. Well, one of the other big announcement is power platform, not water. What are you What are your impressions of this? I mean, is it is it just semantics? I mean, is this just really the umbrella of a lot of things we've seen before? Or is it something new and different? >>So we wait, did see some brand changes of name changes, but we did did see Cem Cem riel movement here. I like to put even though they're different. I like to put a B I dynamics 3 65 and power kind of in the same region because it's Hey, I'm teeing up. Um, hr at for you or C R Ram, But then you're gonna build APS on top of that. And that's what where power comes into play, I think the r p a portion was relatively new and what they brought out. But I wouldn't say this was the big news rollout for, uh, for power. I do think, interestingly enough, is it is it is their largest growth area. If you think about what? Let's a sales force tracking up. What s a P is doing out there? Even a work day? That is, if I look at the cubic dollars that are available, that is their first or second business driver. So I was expecting a little bit more news here. How about you? >>Well, I mean, I I'm I'm just the host here. You're the analyst. You know what you're talking about? I think that how I mean, what do you think? Do? >>Yeah. No, Patrick, you know, from people I've been talking to, there's a mixture of some of it was pulling everything together, but there is a rapid movement. You know, when I talked to the r p. A vendor's out there, it's not right. It's not like they're all quaking in their boots. They're still partner with Microsoft shirt. We see IBM in S A p. Everybody's going after that environment. Come on. Our P a is the gateway drug to a I ITT. It's Rebecca was at exactly show recently talking about that so back to that trust. Their Microsoft is not usually making announcements that you walk across the booth and there's a few people you know saying, Can we roll out the beer early? Because we think our business is ruined. That's where some of that trust isn't Microsoft. But that being said, you know, it was curious to me that they didn't have any big partnerships announcement last year. McDermott was up on stage on Dhe. You know he's changed companies since then, but there was a couple of small open source announcements, but not any large partnership announcement. So ecosystem majorly important. Any commentary from you how Microsoft is doing in that grand battle for you? >>So if I look the past couple of years when some of the biggest players CEOs were on stage right, it was about OD I Hey, let's share our data s a P, probably one of the bigger one even though they're doing with Salesforce's. Well, and I think that was a giant giant leap for folks and second of all way, working to see Larry on stage. Because by the way, that I agree with you on Jen. I That was a huge deal to me. Was Oracle outsourcing? I asked Asher, right, That would have been newsworthy. Okay, if I look at what could have been up here, not that there aren't more strategic deals that could be done. I think they're I think people are busy executing at this point. But if you look at who's gonna share the data without the eye that was the biggest. Working with different clouds. Well, we're not gonna get eight of us to get up on stage here, right? We're not gonna get G c. P here on stage, although, although we could have gotten WebEx up stage because apparently WebEx at a Cisco and teams are becoming friends. And maybe we'll see that on a slightly smaller stage >>enterprise connect kind of launch than it is a Microsoft show. >>Exactly. But I was surprised, you know, and I think it's a testament to how powerful teams actually is on. It's funny when, um um teams, which everybody thought was dead after Slack was announced and hang out with Google has actually ended up being the darling off the enterprise. And not just because it comes free with your M one subscription, right? It's really it's a good product. It's a shockingly good product. You don't have to do any of the any security. If you have any security challenges of anything in Microsoft, you'll avenues you here. But that's not the case. It all uses the back and of Microsoft for security and and regulatory. So anyways, I know I'm veering off here. But there was one partner announcement that I saw. It was Cisco WebEx being friends with teams. >>Can't we all just get along? I mean, there we go. When there's money, everybody exactly every continually we can't. It's too >>expensive to go out on your own. >>Patrick always so much fun to have you and I should having you. I'm Rebecca Knight. For Sue Mittleman, >>stay tuned For more of the cubes, live coverage of Microsoft ignite

>> Live from Orlando, Florida, it's theCUBE. Covering Microsoft Ignite brought to you by Cohesity and theCUBE's ecosystem partners. >> Welcome back everyone to day two of theCUBE's live coverage of Microsoft Ignite. We are coming at you from the Orange County Civic Center in Orlando, Florida. I'm your host Rebecca Knight along with my cohost Stu Miniman. We're joined by Patrick Moorhead, he is the founder and president and principal analyst at Moor Insights and Strategy. Thank you so much for coming back on theCUBE. You're an esteemed CUBE-alum. >> Gosh, this is great, can you introduce me on every show please? >> I would be happy to, delighted. So, Patrick, before the cameras were rolling, we were talking about how many, frankly, tech shows you go to a year, you said 40, 45. >> That's about right, I live in Austin but I actually live on a bunch of planes, kind of like you do, right. >> Right, sure, sure, yeah. So this is your 10th time at Ignite, or an Ignite like show, it used to be called Tech Ed, so what are your first quick takes on what this conference, what you're seeing, what you're hearing? >> So, Microsoft has a three layers, like a three-layered cake to their events, you have developers, you have customers, and you have channel. And this is their customer event, so what might seem like rehash or maybe build or inspire is if customers who haven't heard this content before. So it's really about getting them engaged and things like that and, what we've heard, first and foremost is we had 45 Azure announcements but I think the biggest news, was about the open data initiative that, I mean, how often do you have the three CEOs up on stage, where most corporate data sits, with Microsoft, SAP and Adobe, so it was impressive. And that's probably the number one thing so far. >> Okay, let's dissect that a little bit. What are your thoughts, I mean, we're sort of questioning, it's a big idea, >> Right. >> When will customers actually see the benefit and is there a benefit to customers? >> When I look at these big corporate announcements I'm thinking, is this thing paper or is this thing real? How far does it go? I think this is real, when I dug under the covers, in some, bendy NDA things, that I can't give details on, there's meat there for sure, but, where this all starts, is, is two things are going on here, first of all, to do machine learning correctly, you have to have a lot of data, right? Yesterday's big data, is today's machine learning. You have to have it all together, now you can pull in disparate data sources into your enterprise and work on that data, but it takes a lot of cleansing, you know most of the time in machine learning, is getting the data ready to be worked on. What having data interoperability standards means is you can bring it in, you don't have to cleanse it as much and you can do real time analytics and machine learning on it so it's agreement that says, we're all going to come in, if it's customer data, it's going to look like this, with different fields. Now you would think that something like XML could do this, but this is bigger and from a competitive standpoint, I have to ask the big question, where's Salesforce and where's Oracle, they're the two odd-companies out. >> Really interesting, you mention that there were a lot of Azure announcements here, something like 45. I was reading, Corey Sanders had a blog of list and lists and lists and it's typical of what we've seen in the cloud. You and I, we go to AWS re:invents, and it's like let's talk about all the compute instances, all the cool new storage, all the things, there's cheering and, you know, everything for every micro and macro thing that happens there but are there any things that jumped out at you? We had Jeffrey Silver on the program yesterday, he talked about the databoxes, like the Edge and the various versions of those, those seem kind of interesting when we talk about data and movement but anything in the Azure space that got your attention? >> So aside from the databoxes, I was really excited about AutoML. So, three ways you can do ML, you can do everything from scratch, you can take an off-the-shelf API and then you can use something in the middle, which says, kind of like the three bears, right in the middle, Google at GCP announced something like this and so did Azure. And essentially what this is, is it auto-tags your data. It's smart enough to know that this is an image as opposed to you having to start at the very beginning and hand code some data and that's not automatic because the key, so a good example might be an audio machine learning algorithm where, you might need it for an airplane versus a car, versus the factory floor, versus a smart-phone application. Those are all different environments and your algorithm's going to be different but, as an enterprise, you might not have the PhD on staff to be able to do that, but you can't live with the off-the-shelf API. >> There's another thing that kind of struck me, a little bit of dissonance I saw there, you've got a Microsoft surface sitting in front of you, Microsoft, it's gotten into hardware in a lot of places when they talked about their IoT Ps, they're like, we're going to put things out on the edge and then on the other stream it's like, well, but they're open and it's APIs and developers and software, not only Adobe and SAP but the announcement with Red Hat, talking about all they're doing with Linux, how do you reconcile the, I've heard people in Microsoft, we want to completely vertically integrate the stack and that's not something that I hear from the Googles and Amazons of the world, I thought we were kind of past that, no one company can do it all. On the other hand, they're very open and give you choice. How do you look at those pieces? >> This all stems with the slowdown of Moore's Law for general CPU compute. So, as Moore's Law is slowing down, we need to throw different kinds of accelerators at the same problem, to keep innovation going up and to the right at an increasingly faster pace. So people have gone to GPUs and CPUs and almost every one of the big infrastructure players has done that, whether it's Google, Apple, AWS, they all have their own hardware. Part of it is to accelerate time to market, the other is to get a lock-in, I'm still trying to figure out which one this is. Microsoft is saying very clearly in Azure IoT Edge that you can send your data, even if you have their hardware to AWS and GCP and I think enterprises are going to take a quick look. I've been doing this almost 30 years, I've gray hairs to show for it, but you just have to pick your lock-in, right? Enterprise AT always gets locked in and the question is, what you lock in on? If you go with Oracle and then build applications around it you're locked into Oracle. If you go with a certain hardware OEM, you could be locked into a certain OEM with converse infrastructures, so, I think it's just picking the poison, you're going to have some people who are very comfortable with going all Microsoft and you'll have some people who'll want to piece part it together and look to the future We still have people who were brought up on mainframes and they don't want to be there, they want to have flexibility and fluidity. >> One of the things you were talking about with the slow down of Moore's Law, Microsoft and frankly every other technology giant is really trying to stay ahead of the innovation curve. Microsoft, 42 years old, a middle-aged company, and really, in the tech world, a really old company. Is Microsoft effective at this? I mean, do you see, that this is a creative, an ingenuitive, an innovative company? >> Microsoft is one of the only companies that has been able to turn the corner from being aged and experienced, I guess like us, and moving into the new zone and everybody, in everybody's work has had to do that. Analysts used to, I remember getting Gartner and IDC reports on paper, but now it's very different. We're up here on theCUBE, we're on Twitter, we're doing research reports, so everything is changing and Microsoft has had to change too. Five years ago, when Azure hadn't really taken off, they had a billion dollar write-down on surface hardware, bought Nokia, shut Nokia down, you're wondering, wait a second, what really is happening but then Satya came in and, to the company's credit, has completely turned around. I will state though there is a difference between perception and reality, I think a lot of the things that Ballmer had in place were absolutely the right things, I think Satya takes a lot of credit for it, but these things just didn't magically appear when Satya came in. So, a lot of the things they did were right, and it was perceived to be new leadership and therefore they're looking good. >> I love it, 'cause, we had quite a few Microsoft people on the program and a lot of them, 10, 20 years with the company, and they said, it's still the vision that we had but, one articulated it really well, he said, we're even more focused on the customer than ever and that gets me really excited. I want to ask you, when people look at this show, 'cause it's such a broad ecosystem, so many different views, what will they be talking about later in the year? My initial take coming out of it is, I'm a little surprised that we're talking so much about things like Windows 2019 and the Office 365, Microsoft 365, Dynamics 365, obviously it's Microsoft's strength, it's where they've got the most customers but are they operating still relevant in the future? >> I met with the program manager of Windows 29 servers last night, Erin, and she had said that they had 1,300 people they had to turn away from the Windows 2019 server and there was 4,000 people and I flippantly said, oh my gosh, I didn't think Microsoft still did that, it's all as a service, but I was just kidding of course. But I think that that shows the, how long it takes for people to move but I think what we'll be talking about in a year is has Microsoft delivered on its IoT commitments in IoT Azure Central, how much of their business has moved to, I'll call it, on-prem software in a box, to as a service, so, Dynamics 365, Office 365, and then finally I think we're going to see the workflow, and here's something that my head finally went ding on, is, Microsoft's strategy to surround the data and then do workflow on it to supplant Oracle SAP applications around the data. That's what I think we'll be talking about in a year. >> One other specific I wanted to see if you've got some data on because it's something we wanted to understand, Azure Stack, the press, all agog on it for the last couple of years, I really haven't talked to, I've talked to the partners that are working in, you know, people like Intel, Lenovo, and the like that are doing it but I haven't talked to too many customers they've employed service providers, yes, but what are you hearing, what are you seeing, is Azure Stack a big deal or is it just one of the pieces in a multi-cloud data applications strategy that Microsoft has? >> So, Azure Stack is a big deal and I think that it's getting to it's a slow boil, to be honest with you, the company changed hardware strategies, it was first an ODM model and then it went to an OEM model and a very narrow OEM model. The compute requirements to Azure Stack were too big to some people so it's a slow boil, but I look at what has the competition done? Now to be even a public cloud player, you have to have an on-prem capability. With Google it's PKE On-Prem, you have Greengrasss, and Amazon DB that's on-prem sitting on top of Vmware, so hyper-cloud, multi-cloud is a real thing, I just think it's getting a little bit slower start than everybody had thought. >> Great, well Patrick, thank you so much for your insights. These were terrific, it's great having you on the show. >> Thanks for having me. >> I'm Rebecca Knight for Stu Miniman, we will have more from theCUBE's live coverage of Microsoft Ignite in just a little bit. (upbeat music)

>> Narrator: Live from San Francisco, it's theCUBE covering Samsung Developer Conference 2017, brought to you by Samsung. >> Hello, everyone. Welcome back to theCUBE's live coverage, exclusive coverage of Samsung Developer Conference, SDC 2017. I'm John Furrier, the co-founder of SiliconANGLE Media. Next guest is Patrick Moorhead who is the president and principal analyst at Moor Insights and Strategy, friend of theCUBE. We see him everywhere we go. He's quoted in the Wall Street Journal, New York Times, all the top publications, and today, he was just on Power Lunch on CNBC. Here for our Power Cube segment, welcome to theCUBE. Good to see you again. >> Hey, thanks for being here, and I appreciate you putting up with me heckling you from outside of theCUBE. >> Always great to have you on. Hard hitting, you're one of the best analysts in the business. We know you work hard, we see you at all the events that we go to. I got to get your take, Samsung. Obviously now obviously you run in parallel, at some point on Amazon, obviously winning in the cloud. Samsung downplaying their cloud, but calling about smart things. I get that, the cloud is kind of fragmented, they're trying to hide the ball there, I get that. But they talk about IOT which you got to talk about cloud without IOT, what's your analysis of Samsung? >> Yeah so first off, Samsung is a collection of really really successful stovepiped companies, right? You have displays, you have semiconductors, you have mobile phones, you have all these different areas and they say a lot of times your strength is sometimes your weakness, and the divisions just don't talk a whole lot. But what they did, and this is the first time I've seen this in a long time, is they got on the same page and said you know, we have to work together because IOT and connected and intelligent connectedness can't be done in stovepipes, we can't all go do our thing. So they're agreeing on standards, they're doing some really good stuff. >> And obviously we know from the cloud game now go back to the enterprises, more consumer, backing in from the edge, obviously the edge being devices and other things, I get that. But now the horizontally scalable nature of the cloud is the holy grail, we've seen Amazon's success continue to boom, they do more compute than any other cloud out I think combined. Maybe outside Google with their internal cloud. That horizontal resource pool, serverless as example trend, IOT, you got to have, the stovepipes got to be decimated. However, you need specialism at the application level. >> That's exactly right, and a smartphone will act a little bit differently from a camera which would be different from a refrigerator as we saw, right? Samsung wants the new meeting area to be, well not the new meeting area, we all meet in the kitchen, but the connected meeting area. So they all act differently, so they have to have even though they're different devices they have to connect into that horizontal cloud to make it efficient enough and effective enough for good responsiveness. >> I like the message of smart things, I think that's phenomenal, and I like that 'cause it connects their things, which are consumer things, and people like 'em, like you said very successful stovepipes. The question that I ask here and I try to get the execs to talk about it but they weren't answering yet, and I think it's by design. They're not talking about the data. Because again at the end of the day what's different from Alibaba again last week when I was in China, they are very up front. We're all about data acquisition and using the data to fuel the user experience. >> Right. >> That has to traverse across stovepipes. So is Samsung baked in that area, they have things going on, what's your analysis of data traversal across, is Bixby 2.0 the answer? >> So companies have to take, particularly consumer companies related to the cloud, have to have one or two paths. The one that says, we're not going to mine personal data to either sell you products or run ads, so Facebook, AWS and even Google, that's their business model, and then the other side you have people like Apple who are only going to use the data to make the products and experiences better. I think, I'll just pontificate here, the reason you're not getting a straight answer is I don't think they know exactly what they want to do yet. Because look at the market cap of Facebook. Apple, and even Amazon is planning to start and expand their own ad network. So I just don't think they know yet. Now what I would recommend to them is- >> Or they might not have visibility on it product-wise. So there's knowing what to do, or how to do it, versus the product capability. >> Well they have access to a ton of data, so if you're using Samsung Mail, if you're using, they know every application gets deleted, usage models of those applications. So they know a lot more than I think people think. They have a lot more data than people probably give them credit for. >> So they're going to hide the ball, I think they said that they're buying more time, I would agree with you there. Alright, question on IOT. Do you think that hangs together, that strategy? Obviously security updates to chip-level, that's one thing, can they succeed with IOT in this emerging stovepipe collapse fabric that they're bringing out? >> So I need to do a little bit more research on the security and also their scalability. 'Cause if you're going to connect billions of devices you have to have scalability and we already saw what GE Predix did, right? They did an about-face and partnered up with AWS realizing they just couldn't handle the scale and the complexity. And the second thing is the security model and how things like RM Embed Cloud and the latest announcements from Intel which is how from a gateway perspective you secure this work. So I have to go do some research on this. >> And by the way it's a moving train, you mentioned the GE thing, great example, I mean let's take that example, I got to ask you about cloud, because let's talk about Amazon, Cloud Foundry. Cloud Foundry became this thing and Pivotal tried to take and shape it, now they're claiming huge success, some are questioning the numbers. They're claiming victory on one hand, and I hear record, record, record! But I just don't see any cloud on Cloud Foundry out there. >> Yeah and I think the reason is, PCF, Pivotal Cloud Foundry is a Fortune 500 thing. And if I compare Fortune 500 to startups and other people, there's not nearly as much activity in the Fortune 500 as there is with the startups and the cloud native companies. So I'm optimistic. >> So you're saying Pivotal Cloud is more Fortune 500, less cloud native? >> Exactly, exactly. >> How about Amazon, what's your take, I know you were on Power Lunch kind of, now you're on the Power Cube, our new segment that you just invented by being here. (laughing) What is the Amazon take, 'cause that Reinvent event's coming up, what's the preview? Obviously we're going to have some one on ones with Jassi and the team beforehand, theCUBE will be there with two sets to come on if you're going to be there I'd love to have you on. >> I'd love to. >> Again, what's the preview for AWS Reinvent? >> AWS right, they had a seven-year headstart on almost everybody and then Azure and GCP just recently jumped in, and if you notice over the past year they've been firing canons at each other. One vendor says hey, I do by the minute pricing, and then another one says, oh, I have the by-the-second pricing, right, and I'm going to accept VMWare, oh no I'm not doing VMWare, I'm doing SAP. So what you have now is a feature fest and a fistfight now. AWS is no longer the only man standing here. So what I'm expecting is they are going to come in and make the case that, okay, we still are the best choice not just for IAS but also for PAS, okay? Because they have a lot of competition. And also I think they're going to fill in gaps in some of the regional services where oh they don't have GPUs in a certain country. Oh, I don't have FPGAs over here. I think they're going to fill that in to look better against GCP and Azure. >> I know you cover Intel as well, I was just over there and saw some of the folks there, I saw some of the Linux Foundation folks, obviously you're seeing Intel be more a computing company, not a chip company anymore, they have that Five-G end to end UK Mind and Mobile World Congress, talked a little bit about Five-G. End-to-end is big message here at Samsung, how is Intel positioned in all this, what's your take on Intel? >> Yes so I think related to Intel, I think in some areas they're competitors, because they have their own gateway solutions, they don't have cloud solutions but they have the gateway solutions. Regarding to some of the endpoints, Intel has exited the small cork endpoints in watches, so I would say right now there's less overlap with Intel now. >> From Samsung perspective? >> Exactly, now on the back end it's more than likely there's a 99% chance that the back end doing the cloud processing is going to be Intel. >> If I'm Samsung, why wouldn't I want to partner within Samsung? 'Cause they make their own chips, is that the issue or is it more a...? >> No, I think Samsung up until this point hasn't taken a lot of responsibility for the cloud. So this is a first step, and I think it would make a good partnership. >> And Intel could get the home theater market, the home, how connected home is, but every CES going back 10 years has been a connected home theme. Finally they could get it here. >> That's right, and I have seen Intel get into things, a lot of Amazon's products with the cameras in the bedroom and in the bathroom, scary stuff. But Movidius, silicon that's doing object recognition, that is a place where I think they compete which frankly Samsung could develop the silicon but they just don't have it. Silicon doesn't have capability that a Movidius has. That can be used in any type of camera. >> Okay so final question I know we got to break here and I appreciate you coming on, making room for you, PowerCUBE segment here in San Francisco at SDC 2017. Ecosystem, we hear the host of SDC, Thomas Coe, come up and saying we're going to be honest and transparent to the community here at large in San Francisco and around the globe, kind of incurring that they've been kind of stovepiped and they're going to open up, they believe in open cloud, open IOT, and he talks about ecosystem, I'm not seeing a lot of ecosystem partners around here. What does Samsung need to do to, well first of all, what's your letter grade on the ecosystem and certainly they got an opportunity. What moves should they be making to build a robust healthy ecosystem, because we know you can't do it end to end without support in the white spaces. >> Yeah so I go to a lot of the developer conferences, whether it's Microsoft Build, Apple WWDC, and even the enterprise ones, and this is a smaller, low-key event and I think first and foremost, operating system drives a lot of the ecosystem. And other than Tizen they don't have an operating system. So what they're doing is they're working on the connectedness of it, which is a different kind of ecosystems, it's farther up in the stack, but I think what they can do is they have to be very clear and differentiated and I think back to our earlier, our first conversation, they're not going to mine the data, therefore they're the safe place for you, consumer and our smart things ecosystem, to put your data. And we're going to help you make money to do that, because I don't think Google is as interested in that and I don't think Amazon is as interested in that either. >> They were clear, they said permission-based and even if they don't know what their permission is offering we're going to take the conservative route and protect the data, but they still got to use the data. They got to get their cloud story together, if they want to do the data play, cloud has to be more clear at least in my mind. >> Well I think what they can do is they're sitting on and they will sit on a bigger treasure trove of data that can help their partners deliver better experiences and products, because if you're at the epicenter and you're at that smart things hub? You know everything that's going on in that home whether it's your stuff or your partner's stuff. >> Yeah and they got to be trusted, and they got to be transparent, okay. Patrick Moorhead from Moorhead Insights here on theCUBE, great analyst, follow him everywhere on Twitter, your Twitter handle is, let me just get the Twitter handle. >> It's @patrickmoorhead. >> Okay, @patrickmoorhead on Twitter. He travels the world, gets the data and so does theCUBE, traveling for you, this is John Furrier. More after this short break. (electronic beats)

(upbeat music) >> Once a staid and boring business dominated by IBM, Oracle, and at the time newcomer Microsoft, along with a handful of wannabes, the database business has exploded in the past decade and has become a staple of financial excellence, customer experience, analytic advantage, competitive strategy, growth initiatives, visualizations, not to mention compliance, security, privacy and dozens of other important use cases and initiatives. And on the vendor's side of the house, we've seen the rapid ascendancy of cloud databases. Most notably from Snowflake, whose massive raises leading up to its IPO in late 2020 sparked a spate of interest and VC investment in the separation of compute and storage and all that elastic resource stuff in the cloud. The company joined AWS, Azure and Google to popularize cloud databases, which have become a linchpin of competitive strategies for technology suppliers. And if I get you to put your data in my database and in my cloud, and I keep innovating, I'm going to build a moat and achieve a hugely attractive lifetime customer value in a really amazing marginal economics dynamic that is going to fund my future. And I'll be able to sell other adjacent services, not just compute and storage, but machine learning and inference and training and all kinds of stuff, dozens of lucrative cloud offerings. Meanwhile, the database leader, Oracle has invested massive amounts of money to maintain its lead. It's building on its position as the king of mission critical workloads and making typical Oracle like claims against the competition. Most were recently just yesterday with another announcement around MySQL HeatWave. An extension of MySQL that is compatible with on-premises MySQLs and is setting new standards in price performance. We're seeing a dramatic divergence in strategies across the database spectrum. On the far left, we see Amazon with more than a dozen database offerings each with its own API and primitives. AWS is taking a right tool for the right job approach, often building on open source platforms and creating services that it offers to customers to solve very specific problems for developers. And on the other side of the line, we see Oracle, which is taking the Swiss Army Knife approach, converging database functionality, enabling analytic and transactional workloads to run in the same data store, eliminating the need to ETL, at the same time adding capabilities into its platform like automation and machine learning. Welcome to this database Power Panel. My name is Dave Vellante, and I'm so excited to bring together some of the most respected industry analyst in the community. Today we're going to assess what's happening in the market. We're going to dig into the competitive landscape and explore the future of database and database platforms and decode what it means to customers. Let me take a moment to welcome our guest analyst today. Matt Kimball is a vice president and principal analysts at Moor Insights and Strategy, Matt. He knows products, he knows industry, he's got real world IT expertise, and he's got all the angles 25 plus years of experience in all kinds of great background. Matt, welcome. Thanks very much for coming on theCUBE. Holgar Mueller, friend of theCUBE, vice president and principal analyst at Constellation Research in depth knowledge on applications, application development, knows developers. He's worked at SAP and Oracle. And then Bob Evans is Chief Content Officer and co-founder of the Acceleration Economy, founder and principle of Cloud Wars. Covers all kinds of industry topics and great insights. He's got awesome videos, these three minute hits. If you haven't seen 'em, checking them out, knows cloud companies, his Cloud Wars minutes are fantastic. And then of course, Marc Staimer is the founder of Dragon Slayer Research. A frequent contributor and guest analyst at Wikibon. He's got a wide ranging knowledge across IT products, knows technology really well, can go deep. And then of course, Ron Westfall, Senior Analyst and Director Research Director at Futurum Research, great all around product trends knowledge. Can take, you know, technical dives and really understands competitive angles, knows Redshift, Snowflake, and many others. Gents, thanks so much for taking the time to join us in theCube today. It's great to have you on, good to see you. >> Good to be here, thanks for having us. >> Thanks, Dave. >> All right, let's start with an around the horn and briefly, if each of you would describe, you know, anything I missed in your areas of expertise and then you answer the following question, how would you describe the state of the database, state of platform market today? Matt Kimball, please start. >> Oh, I hate going first, but that it's okay. How would I describe the world today? I would just in one sentence, I would say, I'm glad I'm not in IT anymore, right? So, you know, it is a complex and dangerous world out there. And I don't envy IT folks I'd have to support, you know, these modernization and transformation efforts that are going on within the enterprise. It used to be, you mentioned it, Dave, you would argue about IBM versus Oracle versus this newcomer in the database space called Microsoft. And don't forget Sybase back in the day, but you know, now it's not just, which SQL vendor am I going to go with? It's all of these different, divergent data types that have to be taken, they have to be merged together, synthesized. And somehow I have to do that cleanly and use this to drive strategic decisions for my business. That is not easy. So, you know, you have to look at it from the perspective of the business user. It's great for them because as a DevOps person, or as an analyst, I have so much flexibility and I have this thing called the cloud now where I can go get services immediately. As an IT person or a DBA, I am calling up prevention hotlines 24 hours a day, because I don't know how I'm going to be able to support the business. And as an Oracle or as an Oracle or a Microsoft or some of the cloud providers and cloud databases out there, I'm licking my chops because, you know, my market is expanding and expanding every day. >> Great, thank you for that, Matt. Holgar, how do you see the world these days? You always have a good perspective on things, share with us. >> Well, I think it's the best time to be in IT, I'm not sure what Matt is talking about. (laughing) It's easier than ever, right? The direction is going to cloud. Kubernetes has won, Google has the best AI for now, right? So things are easier than ever before. You made commitments for five plus years on hardware, networking and so on premise, and I got gray hair about worrying it was the wrong decision. No, just kidding. But you kind of both sides, just to be controversial, make it interesting, right. So yeah, no, I think the interesting thing specifically with databases, right? We have this big suite versus best of breed, right? Obviously innovation, like you mentioned with Snowflake and others happening in the cloud, the cloud vendors server, where to save of their databases. And then we have one of the few survivors of the old guard as Evans likes to call them is Oracle who's doing well, both their traditional database. And now, which is really interesting, remarkable from that because Oracle it was always the power of one, have one database, add more to it, make it what I call the universal database. And now this new HeatWave offering is coming and MySQL open source side. So they're getting the second (indistinct) right? So it's interesting that older players, traditional players who still are in the market are diversifying their offerings. Something we don't see so much from the traditional tools from Oracle on the Microsoft side or the IBM side these days. >> Great, thank you Holgar. Bob Evans, you've covered this business for a while. You've worked at, you know, a number of different outlets and companies and you cover the competition, how do you see things? >> Dave, you know, the other angle to look at this from is from the customer side, right? You got now CEOs who are any sort of business across all sorts of industries, and they understand that their future success is going to be dependent on their ability to become a digital company, to understand data, to use it the right way. So as you outline Dave, I think in your intro there, it is a fantastic time to be in the database business. And I think we've got a lot of new buyers and influencers coming in. They don't know all this history about IBM and Microsoft and Oracle and you know, whoever else. So I think they're going to take a long, hard look, Dave, at some of these results and who is able to help these companies not serve up the best technology, but who's going to be able to help their business move into the digital future. So it's a fascinating time now from every perspective. >> Great points, Bob. I mean, digital transformation has gone from buzzword to imperative. Mr. Staimer, how do you see things? >> I see things a little bit differently than my peers here in that I see the database market being segmented. There's all the different kinds of databases that people are looking at for different kinds of data, and then there is databases in the cloud. And so database as cloud service, I view very differently than databases because the traditional way of implementing a database is changing and it's changing rapidly. So one of the premises that you stated earlier on was that you viewed Oracle as a database company. I don't view Oracle as a database company anymore. I view Oracle as a cloud company that happens to have a significant expertise and specialty in databases, and they still sell database software in the traditional way, but ultimately they're a cloud company. So database cloud services from my point of view is a very distinct market from databases. >> Okay, well, you gave us some good meat on the bone to talk about that. Last but not least-- >> Dave did Marc, just say Oracle's a cloud company? >> Yeah. (laughing) Take away the database, it would be interesting to have that discussion, but let's let Ron jump in here. Ron, give us your take. >> That's a great segue. I think it's truly the era of the cloud database, that's something that's rising. And the key trends that come with it include for example, elastic scaling. That is the ability to scale on demand, to right size workloads according to customer requirements. And also I think it's going to increase the prioritization for high availability. That is the player who can provide the highest availability is going to have, I think, a great deal of success in this emerging market. And also I anticipate that there will be more consolidation across platforms in order to enable cost savings for customers, and that's something that's always going to be important. And I think we'll see more of that over the horizon. And then finally security, security will be more important than ever. We've seen a spike (indistinct), we certainly have seen geopolitical originated cybersecurity concerns. And as a result, I see database security becoming all the more important. >> Great, thank you. Okay, let me share some data with you guys. I'm going to throw this at you and see what you think. We have this awesome data partner called Enterprise Technology Research, ETR. They do these quarterly surveys and each period with dozens of industry segments, they track clients spending, customer spending. And this is the database, data warehouse sector okay so it's taxonomy, so it's not perfect, but it's a big kind of chunk. They essentially ask customers within a category and buy a specific vendor, you're spending more or less on the platform? And then they subtract the lesses from the mores and they derive a metric called net score. It's like NPS, it's a measure of spending velocity. It's more complicated and granular than that, but that's the basis and that's the vertical axis. The horizontal axis is what they call market share, it's not like IDC market share, it's just pervasiveness in the data set. And so there are a couple of things that stand out here and that we can use as reference point. The first is the momentum of Snowflake. They've been off the charts for many, many, for over two years now, anything above that dotted red line, that 40%, is considered by ETR to be highly elevated and Snowflake's even way above that. And I think it's probably not sustainable. We're going to see in the next April survey, next month from those guys, when it comes out. And then you see AWS and Microsoft, they're really pervasive on the horizontal axis and highly elevated, Google falls behind them. And then you got a number of well funded players. You got Cockroach Labs, Mongo, Redis, MariaDB, which of course is a fork on MySQL started almost as protest at Oracle when they acquired Sun and they got MySQL and you can see the number of others. Now Oracle who's the leading database player, despite what Marc Staimer says, we know, (laughs) and they're a cloud player (laughing) who happens to be a leading database player. They dominate in the mission critical space, we know that they're the king of that sector, but you can see here that they're kind of legacy, right? They've been around a long time, they get a big install base. So they don't have the spending momentum on the vertical axis. Now remember this is, just really this doesn't capture spending levels, so that understates Oracle but nonetheless. So it's not a complete picture like SAP for instance is not in here, no Hana. I think people are actually buying it, but it doesn't show up here, (laughs) but it does give an indication of momentum and presence. So Bob Evans, I'm going to start with you. You've commented on many of these companies, you know, what does this data tell you? >> Yeah, you know, Dave, I think all these compilations of things like that are interesting, and that folks at ETR do some good work, but I think as you said, it's a snapshot sort of a two-dimensional thing of a rapidly changing, three dimensional world. You know, the incidents at which some of these companies are mentioned versus the volume that happens. I think it's, you know, with Oracle and I'm not going to declare my religious affiliation, either as cloud company or database company, you know, they're all of those things and more, and I think some of our old language of how we classify companies is just not relevant anymore. But I want to ask too something in here, the autonomous database from Oracle, nobody else has done that. So either Oracle is crazy, they've tried out a technology that nobody other than them is interested in, or they're onto something that nobody else can match. So to me, Dave, within Oracle, trying to identify how they're doing there, I would watch autonomous database growth too, because right, it's either going to be a big plan and it breaks through, or it's going to be caught behind. And the Snowflake phenomenon as you mentioned, that is a rare, rare bird who comes up and can grow 100% at a billion dollar revenue level like that. So now they've had a chance to come in, scare the crap out of everybody, rock the market with something totally new, the data cloud. Will the bigger companies be able to catch up and offer a compelling alternative, or is Snowflake going to continue to be this outlier. It's a fascinating time. >> Really, interesting points there. Holgar, I want to ask you, I mean, I've talked to certainly I'm sure you guys have too, the founders of Snowflake that came out of Oracle and they actually, they don't apologize. They say, "Hey, we not going to do all that complicated stuff that Oracle does, we were trying to keep it real simple." But at the same time, you know, they don't do sophisticated workload management. They don't do complex joints. They're kind of relying on the ecosystems. So when you look at the data like this and the various momentums, and we talked about the diverging strategies, what does this say to you? >> Well, it is a great point. And I think Snowflake is an example how the cloud can turbo charge a well understood concept in this case, the data warehouse, right? You move that and you find steroids and you see like for some players who've been big in data warehouse, like Sentara Data, as an example, here in San Diego, what could have been for them right in that part. The interesting thing, the problem though is the cloud hides a lot of complexity too, which you can scale really well as you attract lots of customers to go there. And you don't have to build things like what Bob said, right? One of the fascinating things, right, nobody's answering Oracle on the autonomous database. I don't think is that they cannot, they just have different priorities or the database is not such a priority. I would dare to say that it's for IBM and Microsoft right now at the moment. And the cloud vendors, you just hide that right through scripts and through scale because you support thousands of customers and you can deal with a little more complexity, right? It's not against them. Whereas if you have to run it yourself, very different story, right? You want to have the autonomous parts, you want to have the powerful tools to do things. >> Thank you. And so Matt, I want to go to you, you've set up front, you know, it's just complicated if you're in IT, it's a complicated situation and you've been on the customer side. And if you're a buyer, it's obviously, it's like Holgar said, "Cloud's supposed to make this stuff easier, but the simpler it gets the more complicated gets." So where do you place your bets? Or I guess more importantly, how do you decide where to place your bets? >> Yeah, it's a good question. And to what Bob and Holgar said, you know, the around autonomous database, I think, you know, part of, as I, you know, play kind of armchair psychologist, if you will, corporate psychologists, I look at what Oracle is doing and, you know, databases where they've made their mark and it's kind of, that's their strong position, right? So it makes sense if you're making an entry into this cloud and you really want to kind of build momentum, you go with what you're good at, right? So that's kind of the strength of Oracle. Let's put a lot of focus on that. They do a lot more than database, don't get me wrong, but you know, I'm going to short my strength and then kind of pivot from there. With regards to, you know, what IT looks at and what I would look at you know as an IT director or somebody who is, you know, trying to consume services from these different cloud providers. First and foremost, I go with what I know, right? Let's not forget IT is a conservative group. And when we look at, you know, all the different permutations of database types out there, SQL, NoSQL, all the different types of NoSQL, those are largely being deployed by business users that are looking for agility or businesses that are looking for agility. You know, the reason why MongoDB is so popular is because of DevOps, right? It's a great platform to develop on and that's where it kind of gained its traction. But as an IT person, I want to go with what I know, where my muscle memory is, and that's my first position. And so as I evaluate different cloud service providers and cloud databases, I look for, you know, what I know and what I've invested in and where my muscle memory is. Is there enough there and do I have enough belief that that company or that service is going to be able to take me to, you know, where I see my organization in five years from a data management perspective, from a business perspective, are they going to be there? And if they are, then I'm a little bit more willing to make that investment, but it is, you know, if I'm kind of going in this blind or if I'm cloud native, you know, that's where the Snowflakes of the world become very attractive to me. >> Thank you. So Marc, I asked Andy Jackson in theCube one time, you have all these, you know, data stores and different APIs and primitives and you know, very granular, what's the strategy there? And he said, "Hey, that allows us as the market changes, it allows us to be more flexible. If we start building abstractions layers, it's harder for us." I think also it was not a good time to market advantage, but let me ask you, I described earlier on that spectrum from AWS to Oracle. We just saw yesterday, Oracle announced, I think the third major enhancement in like 15 months to MySQL HeatWave, what do you make of that announcement? How do you think it impacts the competitive landscape, particularly as it relates to, you know, converging transaction and analytics, eliminating ELT, I know you have some thoughts on this. >> So let me back up for a second and defend my cloud statement about Oracle for a moment. (laughing) AWS did a great job in developing the cloud market in general and everything in the cloud market. I mean, I give them lots of kudos on that. And a lot of what they did is they took open source software and they rent it to people who use their cloud. So I give 'em lots of credit, they dominate the market. Oracle was late to the cloud market. In fact, they actually poo-pooed it initially, if you look at some of Larry Ellison's statements, they said, "Oh, it's never going to take off." And then they did 180 turn, and they said, "Oh, we're going to embrace the cloud." And they really have, but when you're late to a market, you've got to be compelling. And this ties into the announcement yesterday, but let's deal with this compelling. To be compelling from a user point of view, you got to be twice as fast, offer twice as much functionality, at half the cost. That's generally what compelling is that you're going to capture market share from the leaders who established the market. It's very difficult to capture market share in a new market for yourself. And you're right. I mean, Bob was correct on this and Holgar and Matt in which you look at Oracle, and they did a great job of leveraging their database to move into this market, give 'em lots of kudos for that too. But yesterday they announced, as you said, the third innovation release and the pace is just amazing of what they're doing on these releases on HeatWave that ties together initially MySQL with an integrated builtin analytics engine, so a data warehouse built in. And then they added automation with autopilot, and now they've added machine learning to it, and it's all in the same service. It's not something you can buy and put on your premise unless you buy their cloud customers stuff. But generally it's a cloud offering, so it's compellingly better as far as the integration. You don't buy multiple services, you buy one and it's lower cost than any of the other services, but more importantly, it's faster, which again, give 'em credit for, they have more integration of a product. They can tie things together in a way that nobody else does. There's no additional services, ETL services like Glue and AWS. So from that perspective, they're getting better performance, fewer services, lower cost. Hmm, they're aiming at the compelling side again. So from a customer point of view it's compelling. Matt, you wanted to say something there. >> Yeah, I want to kind of, on what you just said there Marc, and this is something I've found really interesting, you know. The traditional way that you look at software and, you know, purchasing software and IT is, you look at either best of breed solutions and you have to work on the backend to integrate them all and make them all work well. And generally, you know, the big hit against the, you know, we have one integrated offering is that, you lose capability or you lose depth of features, right. And to what you were saying, you know, that's the thing I found interesting about what Oracle is doing is they're building in depth as they kind of, you know, build that service. It's not like you're losing a lot of capabilities, because you're going to one integrated service versus having to use A versus B versus C, and I love that idea. >> You're right. Yeah, not only you're not losing, but you're gaining functionality that you can't get by integrating a lot of these. I mean, I can take Snowflake and integrate it in with machine learning, but I also have to integrate in with a transactional database. So I've got to have connectors between all of this, which means I'm adding time. And what it comes down to at the end of the day is expertise, effort, time, and cost. And so what I see the difference from the Oracle announcements is they're aiming at reducing all of that by increasing performance as well. Correct me if I'm wrong on that but that's what I saw at the announcement yesterday. >> You know, Marc, one thing though Marc, it's funny you say that because I started out saying, you know, I'm glad I'm not 19 anymore. And the reason is because of exactly what you said, it's almost like there's a pseudo level of witchcraft that's required to support the modern data environment right in the enterprise. And I need simpler faster, better. That's what I need, you know, I am no longer wearing pocket protectors. I have turned from, you know, break, fix kind of person, to you know, business consultant. And I need that point and click simplicity, but I can't sacrifice, you know, a depth of features of functionality on the backend as I play that consultancy role. >> So, Ron, I want to bring in Ron, you know, it's funny. So Matt, you mentioned Mongo, I often and say, if Oracle mentions you, you're on the map. We saw them yesterday Ron, (laughing) they hammered RedShifts auto ML, they took swipes at Snowflake, a little bit of BigQuery. What were your thoughts on that? Do you agree with what these guys are saying in terms of HeatWaves capabilities? >> Yes, Dave, I think that's an excellent question. And fundamentally I do agree. And the question is why, and I think it's important to know that all of the Oracle data is backed by the fact that they're using benchmarks. For example, all of the ML and all of the TPC benchmarks, including all the scripts, all the configs and all the detail are posted on GitHub. So anybody can look at these results and they're fully transparent and replicate themselves. If you don't agree with this data, then by all means challenge it. And we have not really seen that in all of the new updates in HeatWave over the last 15 months. And as a result, when it comes to these, you know, fundamentals in looking at the competitive landscape, which I think gives validity to outcomes such as Oracle being able to deliver 4.8 times better price performance than Redshift. As well as for example, 14.4 better price performance than Snowflake, and also 12.9 better price performance than BigQuery. And so that is, you know, looking at the quantitative side of things. But again, I think, you know, to Marc's point and to Matt's point, there are also qualitative aspects that clearly differentiate the Oracle proposition, from my perspective. For example now the MySQL HeatWave ML capabilities are native, they're built in, and they also support things such as completion criteria. And as a result, that enables them to show that hey, when you're using Redshift ML for example, you're having to also use their SageMaker tool and it's running on a meter. And so, you know, nobody really wants to be running on a meter when, you know, executing these incredibly complex tasks. And likewise, when it comes to Snowflake, they have to use a third party capability. They don't have the built in, it's not native. So the user, to the point that he's having to spend more time and it increases complexity to use auto ML capabilities across the Snowflake platform. And also, I think it also applies to other important features such as data sampling, for example, with the HeatWave ML, it's intelligent sampling that's being implemented. Whereas in contrast, we're seeing Redshift using random sampling. And again, Snowflake, you're having to use a third party library in order to achieve the same capabilities. So I think the differentiation is crystal clear. I think it definitely is refreshing. It's showing that this is where true value can be assigned. And if you don't agree with it, by all means challenge the data. >> Yeah, I want to come to the benchmarks in a minute. By the way, you know, the gentleman who's the Oracle's architect, he did a great job on the call yesterday explaining what you have to do. I thought that was quite impressive. But Bob, I know you follow the financials pretty closely and on the earnings call earlier this month, Ellison said that, "We're going to see HeatWave on AWS." And the skeptic in me said, oh, they must not be getting people to come to OCI. And then they, you remember this chart they showed yesterday that showed the growth of HeatWave on OCI. But of course there was no data on there, it was just sort of, you know, lines up and to the right. So what do you guys think of that? (Marc laughs) Does it signal Bob, desperation by Oracle that they can't get traction on OCI, or is it just really a smart tame expansion move? What do you think? >> Yeah, Dave, that's a great question. You know, along the way there, and you know, just inside of that was something that said Ellison said on earnings call that spoke to a different sort of philosophy or mindset, almost Marc, where he said, "We're going to make this multicloud," right? With a lot of their other cloud stuff, if you wanted to use any of Oracle's cloud software, you had to use Oracle's infrastructure, OCI, there was no other way out of it. But this one, but I thought it was a classic Ellison line. He said, "Well, we're making this available on AWS. We're making this available, you know, on Snowflake because we're going after those users. And once they see what can be done here." So he's looking at it, I guess you could say, it's a concession to customers because they want multi-cloud. The other way to look at it, it's a hunting expedition and it's one of those uniquely I think Oracle ways. He said up front, right, he doesn't say, "Well, there's a big market, there's a lot for everybody, we just want on our slice." Said, "No, we are going after Amazon, we're going after Redshift, we're going after Aurora. We're going after these users of Snowflake and so on." And I think it's really fairly refreshing these days to hear somebody say that, because now if I'm a buyer, I can look at that and say, you know, to Marc's point, "Do they measure up, do they crack that threshold ceiling? Or is this just going to be more pain than a few dollars savings is worth?" But you look at those numbers that Ron pointed out and that we all saw in that chart. I've never seen Dave, anything like that. In a substantive market, a new player coming in here, and being able to establish differences that are four, seven, eight, 10, 12 times better than competition. And as new buyers look at that, they're going to say, "What the hell are we doing paying, you know, five times more to get a poor result? What's going on here?" So I think this is going to rattle people and force a harder, closer look at what these alternatives are. >> I wonder if the guy, thank you. Let's just skip ahead of the benchmarks guys, bring up the next slide, let's skip ahead a little bit here, which talks to the benchmarks and the benchmarking if we can. You know, David Floyer, the sort of semiretired, you know, Wikibon analyst said, "Dave, this is going to force Amazon and others, Snowflake," he said, "To rethink actually how they architect databases." And this is kind of a compilation of some of the data that they shared. They went after Redshift mostly, (laughs) but also, you know, as I say, Snowflake, BigQuery. And, like I said, you can always tell which companies are doing well, 'cause Oracle will come after you, but they're on the radar here. (laughing) Holgar should we take this stuff seriously? I mean, or is it, you know, a grain salt? What are your thoughts here? >> I think you have to take it seriously. I mean, that's a great question, great point on that. Because like Ron said, "If there's a flaw in a benchmark, we know this database traditionally, right?" If anybody came up that, everybody will be, "Oh, you put the wrong benchmark, it wasn't audited right, let us do it again," and so on. We don't see this happening, right? So kudos to Oracle to be aggressive, differentiated, and seem to having impeccable benchmarks. But what we really see, I think in my view is that the classic and we can talk about this in 100 years, right? Is the suite versus best of breed, right? And the key question of the suite, because the suite's always slower, right? No matter at which level of the stack, you have the suite, then the best of breed that will come up with something new, use a cloud, put the data warehouse on steroids and so on. The important thing is that you have to assess as a buyer what is the speed of my suite vendor. And that's what you guys mentioned before as well, right? Marc said that and so on, "Like, this is a third release in one year of the HeatWave team, right?" So everybody in the database open source Marc, and there's so many MySQL spinoffs to certain point is put on shine on the speed of (indistinct) team, putting out fundamental changes. And the beauty of that is right, is so inherent to the Oracle value proposition. Larry's vision of building the IBM of the 21st century, right from the Silicon, from the chip all the way across the seven stacks to the click of the user. And that what makes the database what Rob was saying, "Tied to the OCI infrastructure," because designed for that, it runs uniquely better for that, that's why we see the cross connect to Microsoft. HeatWave so it's different, right? Because HeatWave runs on cheap hardware, right? Which is the breadth and butter 886 scale of any cloud provider, right? So Oracle probably needs it to scale OCI in a different category, not the expensive side, but also allow us to do what we said before, the multicloud capability, which ultimately CIOs really want, because data gravity is real, you want to operate where that is. If you have a fast, innovative offering, which gives you more functionality and the R and D speed is really impressive for the space, puts away bad results, then it's a good bet to look at. >> Yeah, so you're saying, that we versus best of breed. I just want to sort of play back then Marc a comment. That suite versus best of breed, there's always been that trade off. If I understand you Holgar you're saying that somehow Oracle has magically cut through that trade off and they're giving you the best of both. >> It's the developing velocity, right? The provision of important features, which matter to buyers of the suite vendor, eclipses the best of breed vendor, then the best of breed vendor is in the hell of a potential job. >> Yeah, go ahead Marc. >> Yeah and I want to add on what Holgar just said there. I mean the worst job in the data center is data movement, moving the data sucks. I don't care who you are, nobody likes it. You never get any kudos for doing it well, and you always get the ah craps, when things go wrong. So it's in- >> In the data center Marc all the time across data centers, across cloud. That's where the bleeding comes. >> It's right, you get beat up all the time. So nobody likes to move data, ever. So what you're looking at with what they announce with HeatWave and what I love about HeatWave is it doesn't matter when you started with it, you get all the additional features they announce it's part of the service, all the time. But they don't have to move any of the data. You want to analyze the data that's in your transactional, MySQL database, it's there. You want to do machine learning models, it's there, there's no data movement. The data movement is the key thing, and they just eliminate that, in so many ways. And the other thing I wanted to talk about is on the benchmarks. As great as those benchmarks are, they're really conservative 'cause they're underestimating the cost of that data movement. The ETLs, the other services, everything's left out. It's just comparing HeatWave, MySQL cloud service with HeatWave versus Redshift, not Redshift and Aurora and Glue, Redshift and Redshift ML and SageMaker, it's just Redshift. >> Yeah, so what you're saying is what Oracle's doing is saying, "Okay, we're going to run MySQL HeatWave benchmarks on analytics against Redshift, and then we're going to run 'em in transaction against Aurora." >> Right. >> But if you really had to look at what you would have to do with the ETL, you'd have to buy two different data stores and all the infrastructure around that, and that goes away so. >> Due to the nature of the competition, they're running narrow best of breed benchmarks. There is no suite level benchmark (Dave laughs) because they created something new. >> Well that's you're the earlier point they're beating best of breed with a suite. So that's, I guess to Floyer's earlier point, "That's going to shake things up." But I want to come back to Bob Evans, 'cause I want to tap your Cloud Wars mojo before we wrap. And line up the horses, you got AWS, you got Microsoft, Google and Oracle. Now they all own their own cloud. Snowflake, Mongo, Couchbase, Redis, Cockroach by the way they're all doing very well. They run in the cloud as do many others. I think you guys all saw the Andreessen, you know, commentary from Sarah Wang and company, to talk about the cost of goods sold impact of cloud. So owning your own cloud has to be an advantage because other guys like Snowflake have to pay cloud vendors and negotiate down versus having the whole enchilada, Safra Catz's dream. Bob, how do you think this is going to impact the market long term? >> Well, Dave, that's a great question about, you know, how this is all going to play out. If I could mention three things, one, Frank Slootman has done a fantastic job with Snowflake. Really good company before he got there, but since he's been there, the growth mindset, the discipline, the rigor and the phenomenon of what Snowflake has done has forced all these bigger companies to really accelerate what they're doing. And again, it's an example of how this intense competition makes all the different cloud vendors better and it provides enormous value to customers. Second thing I wanted to mention here was look at the Adam Selipsky effect at AWS, took over in the middle of May, and in Q2, Q3, Q4, AWS's growth rate accelerated. And in each of those three quotas, they grew faster than Microsoft's cloud, which has not happened in two or three years, so they're closing the gap on Microsoft. The third thing, Dave, in this, you know, incredibly intense competitive nature here, look at Larry Ellison, right? He's got his, you know, the product that for the last two or three years, he said, "It's going to help determine the future of the company, autonomous database." You would think he's the last person in the world who's going to bring in, you know, in some ways another database to think about there, but he has put, you know, his whole effort and energy behind this. The investments Oracle's made, he's riding this horse really hard. So it's not just a technology achievement, but it's also an investment priority for Oracle going forward. And I think it's going to form a lot of how they position themselves to this new breed of buyer with a new type of need and expectations from IT. So I just think the next two or three years are going to be fantastic for people who are lucky enough to get to do the sorts of things that we do. >> You know, it's a great point you made about AWS. Back in 2018 Q3, they were doing about 7.4 billion a quarter and they were growing in the mid forties. They dropped down to like 29% Q4, 2020, I'm looking at the data now. They popped back up last quarter, last reported quarter to 40%, that is 17.8 billion, so they more doubled and they accelerated their growth rate. (laughs) So maybe that pretends, people are concerned about Snowflake right now decelerating growth. You know, maybe that's going to be different. By the way, I think Snowflake has a different strategy, the whole data cloud thing, data sharing. They're not trying to necessarily take Oracle head on, which is going to make this next 10 years, really interesting. All right, we got to go, last question. 30 seconds or less, what can we expect from the future of data platforms? Matt, please start. >> I have to go first again? You're killing me, Dave. (laughing) In the next few years, I think you're going to see the major players continue to meet customers where they are, right. Every organization, every environment is, you know, kind of, we use these words bespoke in Snowflake, pardon the pun, but Snowflakes, right. But you know, they're all opinionated and unique and what's great as an IT person is, you know, there is a service for me regardless of where I am on my journey, in my data management journey. I think you're going to continue to see with regards specifically to Oracle, I think you're going to see the company continue along this path of being all things to all people, if you will, or all organizations without sacrificing, you know, kind of richness of features and sacrificing who they are, right. Look, they are the data kings, right? I mean, they've been a database leader for an awful long time. I don't see that going away any time soon and I love the innovative spirit they've brought in with HeatWave. >> All right, great thank you. Okay, 30 seconds, Holgar go. >> Yeah, I mean, the interesting thing that we see is really that trend to autonomous as Oracle calls or self-driving software, right? So the database will have to do more things than just store the data and support the DVA. It will have to show it can wide insights, the whole upside, it will be able to show to one machine learning. We haven't really talked about that. How in just exciting what kind of use case we can get of machine learning running real time on data as it changes, right? So, which is part of the E5 announcement, right? So we'll see more of that self-driving nature in the database space. And because you said we can promote it, right. Check out my report about HeatWave latest release where I post in oracle.com. >> Great, thank you for that. And Bob Evans, please. You're great at quick hits, hit us. >> Dave, thanks. I really enjoyed getting to hear everybody's opinion here today and I think what's going to happen too. I think there's a new generation of buyers, a new set of CXO influencers in here. And I think what Oracle's done with this, MySQL HeatWave, those benchmarks that Ron talked about so eloquently here that is going to become something that forces other companies, not just try to get incrementally better. I think we're going to see a massive new wave of innovation to try to play catch up. So I really take my hat off to Oracle's achievement from going to, push everybody to be better. >> Excellent. Marc Staimer, what do you say? >> Sure, I'm going to leverage off of something Matt said earlier, "Those companies that are going to develop faster, cheaper, simpler products that are going to solve customer problems, IT problems are the ones that are going to succeed, or the ones who are going to grow. The one who are just focused on the technology are going to fall by the wayside." So those who can solve more problems, do it more elegantly and do it for less money are going to do great. So Oracle's going down that path today, Snowflake's going down that path. They're trying to do more integration with third party, but as a result, aiming at that simpler, faster, cheaper mentality is where you're going to continue to see this market go. >> Amen brother Marc. >> Thank you, Ron Westfall, we'll give you the last word, bring us home. >> Well, thank you. And I'm loving it. I see a wave of innovation across the entire cloud database ecosystem and Oracle is fueling it. We are seeing it, with the native integration of auto ML capabilities, elastic scaling, lower entry price points, et cetera. And this is just going to be great news for buyers, but also developers and increased use of open APIs. And so I think that is really the key takeaways. Just we're going to see a lot of great innovation on the horizon here. >> Guys, fantastic insights, one of the best power panel as I've ever done. Love to have you back. Thanks so much for coming on today. >> Great job, Dave, thank you. >> All right, and thank you for watching. This is Dave Vellante for theCube and we'll see you next time. (soft music)

>>Welcome back to HPD discovered 2021. The virtual edition. My name is Dave Volonte and you're watching the cubes continuous coverage of H. P. S. Big customer event. Patrick Moorehead is here of moor insights and strategy is the number one analyst in the research analyst. Business. Patrick. Always a pleasure. Great to see you, >>David. Great to see you too. And I know you're you're up there fighting for that number one spot to. It's great to see you and it's great to see you in the meetings that were in. But it's even more fun to be here on the cube. I love to be on the cube and every once in a while you'll even call me a friend of the cube, >>unquestionably my friend and so and I can't wait second half. I mean you're traveling right now. We're headed to Barcelona to mobile World Congress later on this month. So so we're gonna we're gonna see each other face to face this year. 100%. So looking forward to that. So, you know, let's get into it. Um you know, before we get into H. P. E. Let's talk a little bit about what you're seeing in the market. We've got, you know, we we we finally, it feels like the on prem guys are finally getting their cloud act together. Um, it's maybe taken a while, but we're seeing as a service models emerge. I think it's resonating with customers. The clearly not everything is moving to the cloud. There's this hybrid model emerging. Multi cloud is real despite what, you know, >>some some >>cloud players want to say. And then there's this edges like jump ball, what are you seeing in the marketplace? >>Yeah. Davis, as exciting as ever in. Just to put in perspective, I mean, the public cloud has been around for about 10 years and still only 20%. Around 20% of the data in 20% of the applications are there now, albeit very important ones. And I'm certainly not a public cloud denier, I never have been, but there are some missing pieces that need to come together. And you know, even five years ago we were debating dave the hybrid cloud and I feel like when Amazon brought out outposts, the conversation was over right now, what you have is cloud native folks building out hybrid and on prem capabilities, you have the classic on prem folks building out hybrid and as a service capabilities. And I really think it boils down 22 things. I mean it's wanting to have more flexibility and you know, I hate to use it because it sounds like a marketing word, but agility, the ability to spin up things and spin down things in a very quick way. And uh, you know what they've learned. The veterans also know, hey, let's do this in a way that doesn't lock us in too much into a certain vendor. And I've been around for a long time. David and I'm a realist too. Well, you have to lock yourself into something. It just depends on what do you want to lock yourself into, but super exciting. And what H. P. E. When they threw the acts in the sea with Green Lake, I think it was four years ago, I think really started to stir the pot. >>You know, you mentioned the term cloud denial, but you know, and I feel like the narrative from, I like to determine is I think you should use the term veteran. You know, it's very, they're ours is the only industry patrick where legacy is a pejorative, but but but so but the point I want to make is I feel like there's been a lot of sort of fear from the veteran players, but I look at it differently. I wonder what you're taking. I think, I think, I think I calculated that the Capex spending by the big four public clouds including Alibaba last year was $100 billion. That's like a gift to the world. Here, we're going to spend $100 billion like the internet here you go build. And and so I, and I feel like companies like HP are finally saying, yeah, we're gonna build, we're gonna build a layer and we're gonna hide the complexity and we're gonna add value on top. What do you think about that? >>Yeah. So I think it's now, I wish, I wish the on prem folks like HP, you would have done it 10 years ago, but I don't think anybody expected the cloud to be as big as it's become over the last 10 years. I think we saw companies like salesforce with sas taking off, but I think it is the right direction because there are advantages to having workloads on prem and if you add an as a service capability on top of the top of that, and let's say even do a Coehlo or a managed service, it's pretty close to being similar to the public cloud with the exception, that you can't necessarily swipe a credit card for a bespoke workload if you're a developer and it is a little harder to scale out. But that is the next step in the equation day, which is having, having these folks make capital expenditures, make them in a polo facility and then put a layer to swipe a credit card and you literally have the public cloud. >>Yeah. So that's, that's a great point and that's where it's headed, isn't it? Um, so let's, let's talk about the horses on the track. Hp. As you mentioned, I didn't realize it was four years ago. I thought it was, wow, That's amazing. So everybody's followed suit. You see, Dallas announced, Cisco has announced, uh, Lenovo was announced, I think IBM as well. So we, so everybody started following suit there. The reality is, is it's taken some time to get this stuff standardized. What are you seeing from, from HP? They've made some additional announcements, discover what's your take on all this. >>Yeah. So HPD was definitely the rabbit here and they were first in the market. It was good to see, first off some of their, Um, announcements on, on how it's going. And they talked about 4, $28 billion 1200 customers over 900 partners and 95% retention. And I think that's important anybody who's in the lead and remember what Aws used to do with the slide with the amount of customers would just get bigger and bigger and bigger and that's a good way to show momentum. I like the retention part two which is 95%. And I think that that says a lot uh probably the more important announcements that they made is they talked about the G. A. Of some of their solutions on Green Lake and whether it was S. A. P. Hana Ml apps HPC with Francis V. I was Citrus in video but they also brought more of what I would call a vertical layer and I'm sure you've seen the vertical ization of all of these cloud and as a service workloads. But what they're doing with Epic with EMR and looseness, with financial payments and Splunk and intel with data and risk analysis and finally, a full stack for telco five G. One of the biggest secrets and I covered this about five years ago is HPV actually has a full stack that western european carriers use and they're now extending that to five G. And um, so more horizontal uh and and more vertical. That was the one of the big swipes uh that I saw that there was a second though, but maybe we can talk about these. >>Yeah. Okay, Okay. So, so the other piece of that of course is standardization right there there because there was a, there was, there was a lot of customization leading up to this and everybody sort of, everybody always had some kind of financial game they can play and say, hey, there's an adversary as a service model, but this is definitely more of a standardized scalable move that H P E. Is making with what they call Lighthouse, Right? >>Yeah, that's exactly right. And I've talked to some Green Lake customers and they obviously gave it kudos or they wouldn't have HP wouldn't have served them up and they wouldn't have been buying it. But they did say, um, it took, it took a while, took some paperwork to get it going. It's not 100% of push button, but that's partially because hp allows you to customize the hardware. You want a one off network adapter. Hp says yes, right. You want to integrate a different type of storage? They said yes. But with Green Lake Lighthouse, it's more of a, what you see is what you get, which by the way is very much like the public cloud or you go to a public cloud product sheet or order sheet. You're picking from a list and you really don't know everything that's underneath the covers, aside from, let's say the speed of the network, the type of the storage and the amount of the storage you get. You do get to pick between, let's say, an intel processor, Graviton two or an M. D processor. You get to pick your own GPU. But that's pretty much it. And HP Lighthouse, sorry, Green Lake Lighthouse uh, is bringing, I think a simplification to Green Lake that it needs to truly scale beyond, let's say, the white house customers at HP. Yeah, >>Well done. So, you know, and I hear your point about 10 years in, you know, plus and to me this is like a mandate. I mean, this is okay. Good, good job guys about time. But if I had a, you know, sort of look at the big players, like, can we have an oligopoly here in this, in this business? It's HP, Cisco, you got Dell Lenovo, you've got, you know, IBM, they're all doing this and they all have a different little difference, you know, waste of skin of catch. And your point about simplicity, it seems like HP HP is all in Antonio's like, okay, here's what we're going to announce that, you know, while ago, so, and they seem to have done a good job with Wall Street and they get a simple model, you know, Dell's obviously bigger portfolio, much more complicated. IBM is even more complicated than that. I don't know so much about Lenovo and in Cisco of course, has acquired a ton of SAAS companies and sort of they've got a lot of bespoke products that they're trying to put together, so they've got, but they do have SAS models. So each of them is coming at it from a different perspective. How do you think? And so and the other point we got lighthouse, which is sort of Phase one, get product market fit. Phase two now is scale codify standardized and then phase three is the moat build your unique advantage that protects your business. What do you see as HP? Es sort of unique value proposition and moat that they can build longer term. >>That's a great, great question. And let me rattle off kind of what I'm seeing that some of these these players here. So Cisco, ironically, has sells the most software of any of those players that you mentioned, uh with the exception of IBM. Um, and yeah, C >>ICSDB two. Yeah, >>yeah, they're the they're the number two security player, uh, Microsoft, number one. So and I think the evaluation on the street uh indicate that shows that I feel like uh Deltek is a is a very broad play because not only do they have servers, storage, networking and security, but they also have Pcs and devices, so it's a it's a scale and end play with a focus on VM ware solutions, not exclusively, of course. Uh And um then you've got Lenovo who is just getting into the as a service game and are gosh, they're doing great in hyper scale, they've got scale there vertically integrated. I don't know if if too many people talk about that, but Lenovo does a lot of their own manufacturing and they actually manufacture Netapp storage solutions as well. So yeah, each of these folks brings a different game to the table, I think with h P E, what your bring to the table is nimble. When HP and HP split, the number one thing that I said was that uh huh H P E is going to have to be so much faster than it offsets the scale that Dell technology has and the HBs credit, although there, I don't think we're getting credit for this in the stock market yet. Um, and I know you and I are both industry folks, not financial folks, but I think their biggest thing is speed and the ability to move faster and that is what I've seen as it relates to the moat, which is a unique uh, competitive advantage. Quite frankly, I'm still looking for that day in, in, in what that is and I think in this industry it's nearly impossible and I would posit that that any, even the cloud folks, if you say, is there something that AWS can do that Azure can't, if it put it put its mind to it or G C P. I don't think so. I think it's more of a kind of land and expand and I think for H P E, when it comes to high performance computing and I'm not just talking about government installations, I'm talking about product development, drug development, I think that is a landing place where H P E already does pretty well can come in and expand its footprint, >>you know, that's really interesting um, observations. So, and I would agree with you, it's kind of like, this is a copycat industry, it's like the west coast offense, like the NFL >>and >>so, so the moat comes from, you know, brand execution and your other point about when HP and HP split, that was a game changer, because all of a sudden you saw companies like them, you always had a long term relationship with H P E but or HP, but then they came out of the woodworks and started to explode. And so it really opened up opportunities. So it really >>is an execution, >>isn't it? But go ahead, please >>Dave if I had to pick something that I think HP HPV needs to always be ahead and as a service and listen, you know, I both know announcements don't mean delivery, but there is correlation between if you start four years ahead of somebody that other company is going to have to put just, I mean they're gonna have to turn that ship and many of its competitors really big ships to be able to get there. So I think what Antonio needs to do is run like hell, right, Because it, it, I think it is in the lead and as a service holistically doesn't mean they're going to be there forever, but they have to stay ahead. They have to add more horizontal solutions. They have to add more vertical solutions. And I believe that at some point it does need to invest in some Capex at somebody like ANna Quinn x play credit card swiper on top of that. And Dave, you have the public, you have the public cloud, you don't have all the availability zones, but you have a public cloud. >>Yeah, that's going to happen. I think you're right on. So we see this notion of cloud expanding. It's no longer just remote set of services. Somewhere out in the cloud. It's as you said, outpost was the sort of signal. Okay, We're coming on prem clearly the on prem, uh, guys are connecting to the cloud. Multi cloud exists, we know this and then there's the edge but but but that brings me to that sort of vision and everybody's laying out of this this this seamless integration hiding the complexity log into my cloud and then life will be good. But the edge is different. Right? It's not just, you know, retail store or a race track. I mean there's the far edge, there's the Tesla car, there's gonna be compute everywhere. And that sort of ties into the data. The data flows, you know the real time influencing at the edge ai new semiconductor models. You you came out of the semiconductor industry, you know it inside and out arm is exploding is dominating in the edge with with with apple and amazon Alexa and things like that. That's really where the action is. So this is a really interesting cocktail and soup that we have going on. How do you >>say? Well, you know, Dave if the data most data, I think one thing most everybody agrees on is that most of the data will be created on the edge. Whether that's a moving edge a car, a smartphone or what I call an edge data center without tile flooring. Like that server that's bolted to the wall of Mcdonald's. When you drive through, you can see it versus the walmart. Every walmart has a raised tile floor. It's the edge to economically and performance wise, it doesn't make any sense to send all that data to the mother ships. Okay. And whether that's unproven data center or the giant public cloud, more efficient way is to do the compute at the closest way possible. But what it does, it does bring up challenges. The first challenge is security. If I wanted to, I could walk in and I could take that server off the Mcdonald's or the Shell gas station wall. So I can't do that in a big data center. Okay, so security, Physical security is a challenge. The second is you don't have the people to go in there and fix stuff that are qualified. If you have a networking problem that goes wrong and Mcdonald's, there's nobody there that can help uh, they can they can help you fix that. So this notion of autonomy and management and not keeping hyper critical data sitting out there and it becomes it becomes a security issue becomes a management issue. Let me talk about the benefits though. The benefits are lower latency. You want you want answers more quickly when that car is driving down the road and it has a five G V two X communication cameras can't see around corners, but that car communicating ahead, that ran into the stop sign, can I through vi to X. Talk to the car behind it and say, hey, something is going on there, you can't go to, you can't go to the big data center in the sky to make that happen, that is to be in near real time and that computer has to happen on the edge. So I think this is a tremendous opportunity and ironically the classic on prem guys, they own this, they own this space aside from smartphones of course, but if you look at compute on a light pole, companies like Intel have built Complete architectures to do that, putting compute into 5G base stations. Heck, I just, there was an announcement this week of google cloud in its gaming solution putting compute in a carrier edge to give lower latency to deliver a better experience. >>Yeah, so there, of course there is no one edge, it's highly fragmented, but I'm interested in your thoughts on kind of who's stack actually can play at the edge. And I've been sort of poking uh H P E about this. And the one thing that comes back consistently is Aruba, we we can take a room but not only to the, to the near edge, but to the far edge. And and that, do you see that as a competitive advantage? >>Oh gosh, yes. I mean, I would say the best acquisition That hp has made in 10 years has been aruba it's fantastic. And they also managed it in the right way. I mean, it was part of HB but it was it was managed a lot more loosely then, you know, a company that might get sucked into the board. And I think that paid off tremendously. They're giving Cisco on the edge a absolute run for their money, their first with new technologies. But it's about the solution. What I love about what a ruble looks at is it's looking at entertainment solutions inside of a stadium, um a information solution inside of an airport as opposed to just pushing the technology forward. And then when you integrate compute with with with Aruba, I think that's where the real magic happens. Most of the data on a permanent basis is actually video data. And a lot of it's for security uh for surveillance. And quite frankly, people taking videos off, they're off their smartphones and downloading video. I I just interviewed the chief network officer of T mobile and their number one bit of data is video, video uploaded, video download. But that's where the magic happens when you put that connectivity and the compute together and you can manage it in a, in an orderly and secure fashion >>while I have you, we have a ton of time here, but I I don't pick your brain about intel, the future of intel. I know you've been following it quite closely, you always have Intel's fighting a forefront war. You got there, battling A. M. D. There, battling your arm slash and video. They're they're taking on TSMC now and in foundry and, and I'll add china for the looming threat there. So what's your prognosis for for intel? >>Yeah, I liked bob the previous Ceo and I think he was doing a lot of of the right things, but I really think that customers and investors and even their ecosystem wanted somebody leading the company with a high degree of technical aptitude and Pat coming, I mean, Pat had a great job at VM or, I mean, he had a great run there and I think it is a very positive move. I've never seen the energy At Intel probably in the last 10 years that I've seen today. I actually got a chance to talk with pat. I visited pat uhh last month and and talk to him about pretty much everything and where he wanted to take the company the way you looked at technology, what was important, what's not important. But I think first off in the world of semiconductors, there are no quick fixes. Okay. Intel has a another two years Before we see what the results are. And I think 2023 for them is gonna be a huge year. But even with all this competition though, Dave they still have close to 85% market share in servers and revenue share for client computing around 90%. Okay. So and they've built out there networking business, they build out a storage business um with with obtain they have the leading Aid as provider with Mobileye. And and listen I was I was one of Intel's biggest, I was into one of Intel's biggest, I was Intel's biggest customer when I was a compact. I was their biggest competitor at AMG. So um I'm not obviously not overly pushing or there's just got to wait and see. They're doing the right things. They have the right strategy. They need to execute. One of the most important things That Intel did is extend their alliance with TSMC. So in 2023 we're going to see Intel compute units these tiles, they integrate into the larger chips called S. O. C S B. Manufactured by TSMC. Not exclusively, but we could see that. So literally we could have AMG three nanometer on TSMC CPU blocks, competing with intel chips with TSMC three nanometer CPU blocks and it's on with regard to video. I mean in video is one of these companies that just keeps going charging, charging hard and I'm actually meeting with Jensen wang this week and Arms Ceo Simon Segers to talk about this opportunity and that's a company that keeps on moving interestingly enough in video. If the arm deal does go through will be the largest chip license, see CPU licensee and have the largest CPU footprint on the planet. So here we have AMG who's CPU and Gpu and buying an F. P. G. A company called Xilinx, you have Intel, Cpus, Gpus machine learning accelerators and F. P. G. S. And then you've got arms slashing video bit with everything as well. We have three massive ecosystems. They're gonna be colliding here and I think it's gonna be great for competition. Date. Competition is great. You know, when there's not competition in CPUs and Gpus, we know what happens right. Uh, the beach just does not go on and we start to stagnate. And I did, I do feel like the industry on CPU started to stagnate when intel had no competition. So bring it on. This is gonna be great for for enterprises then customers to and then, oh, by the way, you have the custom Chip providers. WS has created no less than 15 custom semiconductors started with networking and nitro and building out an edge that surrounded the general computer. And then it moved to Inferential for inference trainee um, is about to come out for training Graviton and Gravitas to for general purpose CPU and then you've got apple. So innovation is huge and I love to always make fun of the software is eating the world. I always say yeah but has to run on something. And so I think the combination of semiconductors software and cloud is just really a magical combination. >>Real quick handicap the video arm acquisition. What what are the odds that that they will be successful? They say it's on track. You got a 2 to 13 to 1 10 to 1. >>I say 75%. Yes 25%. No China is always the has been the odd odd man out for the last three years. They scuttled the Qualcomm NXp deal. You just don't know what china is going to do. I think the EU with some conditions is going to let this fly. I think the U. S. Is absolutely going to let this fly. And even though the I. P. Will still stay over in the UK, I think the U. S. Wants to see wants to see this happen, Japan and Korea I think we'll allow this china is the odd man out. >>In a word, the future of h p. E is blank >>as a service >>patrick Moorehead. Always a pleasure. My friend. Great to see you. Thanks so much for coming back in the cube. >>Yeah, Thanks for having me on. I appreciate that. >>Everybody stay tuned for more great coverage from HP discover 21 this is day Volonte for the cube. The leader and enterprise tech coverage. We'll be right back.