>> Announcer: Live from San Diego, California, it's theCUBE, covering Kubecon and CloudNativeCon brought to you by Redhat, a CloudNative computing foundation and its ecosystem partners. >> Welcome back to theCUBE, we are here in San Diego where we are keeping CloudNative classy. I'm Stu Miniman, and my cohost is John Troyer, and we are happy to welcome back to the program, our host, Dan Kohn, who is the executive director of the CloudNative computing foundation, or the CNCF. Dan, thank you so much for having us. >> Thrilled to be back again. >> All right, and, yeah, so our fourth year doing this show, the big shows-- >> Dan: Nothing's really changed. You just tear right along the same level. One year to the next, you can just confuse them pretty easily.. >> So, you know, Dan, we actually did a prediction show yesterday, and I said, maybe it's my math background, but I look back two years ago, it was four thousand, then eight thousand, now twelve thousand, so I predict Boston must be sixteen thousand because I was used to those standardized tests, but with the growth, you never know, and it is very difficult, you know, we talk about planning, we've talked, this facility was booked before-- >> Dan: Two years ago. >> --the curve really started taking off. So, help us set the stage a little bit, we're getting towards the end of the event, but you know, tons of day zero things, so many sessions, so many people, there were pre-show events I heard that started like the end of last week, so, it's a small city in this community in so many pieces, and the CNCF helps enable all of it. >> It does, and what's fun for us is just that, the community is out there adopting these technologies and contributing to it and growing, and being able to come together, this is always our biggest event in North America but also in Europe and China. It's just a really nice snapshot of the point of time, in saying, okay, where are things, how many companies are interested in having sponsor booths, how many developers are there, how many track, but, I think maybe my favorite anecdote from Kubecon CloudNativeCon San Diego is that there was a, so we offer, a CFP track, a call for proposals that's extremely competitive, only 12% of the talks get accepted. And then we have a maintainer track, where the different providers can have either an intro, a deep-dive, or both. So the deep dive for the project Helm, which is not even a graduated project yet, I mean, it's very widely used, package manager for Kubernetes, but the deep dive for Helm had more than 1600 people inside their session, which is more than we had at all of attending Kubecon 2015 and 2016 combined. >> So, Dan, one of the words that gets mentioned a lot in this space, and it has lots of different meanings, is "scale". You know, we talk about Kubernetes built for big scale, we're talking about Edge computing which goes to small scale. This event, you look at the ecosystem. There's a thirty foot banner with all of the logos there, you look at the landscape-- >> Dan: They're not that big, either. >> --there are so many logos on there. Actually, I really thought you had an enjoyable yet useful analogy in your opening keynote. You talk about Minecraft. I've got a boy, he plays Xbox, I've seen Minecraft, so when he pulls up the little chart and there's like, you know, all of these little things on the side, my son can tell you how they're used and what you can build with them, I would be completely daunted looking at that, much like many of the people coming to this show, and they look around and they're like, I don't even know where to start. >> And that was fun keynote for me to put together, because I did need to make sure, both on the Minecraft part, that all the formulas were correct, I didn't want anyone... But then I drew the analogy to Kubernetes and how it is based on a set of building blocks, hundreds of them, that have evolved over time, and for that, I actually did some software archeology of reaching out to the people who created the original IPFW, Linux firewall 20 years ago based on PSD and then the evolution since then, made sure that they were comfortable with my description of it. But now, bringing it out to Kubecon, CNCF, we have a lot of projects now, so we're up to 43. When we met in Seattle four years ago, it was 2. And so it's definitely incumbent on CNCF to do a good job, and we can probably do an even better one on trying to draw this trail map, this recommended path through understanding the technologies, deciding on which ones people might want to adopt. >> Yeah, I think that would be really interesting. In fact, the words trail map kind of came up on Twitter, today, I saw. And one of the things that struck me was how the first rule of Kubecon is, well, Kubernetes is not maybe in the center of everything, it's underneath everything, but, like you said, 42 projects in the CNCF, many more projects, open-source projects, of course, from different vendors, from different coalitions, that you can see here on the show floor as well, if not in a session, so, without giving a maybe a CNCF 101, what does the path forward look like in terms of that, the growth of projects within the CNCF umbrella, the prominence of Kubecon, are we headed towards CloudNativeCon? >> Well, we've always been calling it Kubecon CloudNativeCon, and we could reverse the names, but I don't see any particular drive to do that. But I would really emphasize, and give credit to Craig McLuckie and some of the other people who originally set up CNCF, where Google had this technology, if they'd come to the Linux Foundation and said, we want to call it the Kubernetes Foundation, we probably would've said yes to that. But the impact, then, would be that all of these other technologies and approaches would have come in and said, we need to become part of the Kubernetes project, and instead, there was a vision of an ecosystem, and the reality is that Kubernetes is still by far the largest project. I mean, if you look at the total number of contributors, I believe it's approximately the same between Kubernetes and our other 42 projects combined. So, and of course, there's overlap. But in that sense, in some ways, Kubernetes sort of represents the sun, and the other projects are orbiting around it, but from the beginning, the whole idea was to say that we wanted to allow a diversity of different approaches, and CNCF has had this very clear philosophy that we're not king makers, that if you look at our landscape document, where we look at different functions like key management or container run times or databases or others, there can be multiple CNCF hosted projects in each box. And so far at least, that approach seems to be working quite well. >> Yeah, Dan, having been to a number of these, the maturity and progress is obvious. Something we've said is Kubernetes is really table sticks at this point, no matter where I go, there is going to be Kubernetes, and therefore, I've seen it some over the last year or so, but very prominent on this show, we're talking about work loads, we're talking about applications, you know, it's defining and explaining that CloudNative piece of it, and the tough thing is, you know, modern applications and building applications and that AppDev community. So, you know, speak a little bit-- You've got a very diverse audience here, talk about the personas you have to communicate with, and who you're attracting to this. I know they put out lots of metrics as to the surveys and who's coming and who's participating. >> Well, we do, and we'll be publishing those, and I love the fact. I think some people misunderstand in the thinking that Kubecon CloudNativeCon is all infrastructure engineers, and something like a third or more of the attendees are application developers, and so I do think there's this natural move, particularly towards AppDev. The difference is that on the infrastructure side, there's just a really strong consensus about Kubernetes, as you're saying, where on the application development side, it's still very early days. And I mean, if anything, I think really the only area that there is consensus on is that the abstractions that Kubernetes provides are not the ones that we want to have regular application developers at most enterprises working with, that they shouldn't actually need to build their own container and then write the YAML in order to configure it. Brian Liles hit that point nicely with his keynote today around Rails. But so we can agree that what we have isn't the right outcome, we can agree that whatever are the winning solutions are very likely underneath going to be building those containers and writing the YAML. But there are so many different approaches right now, at a high layer on what that right interface is. >> Yeah, I mean, just, one example I have, I had the opportunity to interview Bloomberg for the second time. And a year ago, we had talked very much about the infrastructure, and this year we talked about really, they've built internally that PaaS layer, so that their AppDevs, they might know that there's Kubernetes, but they don't have to interface with that at all. I've had a number of the CNCF end user members participate, maybe, speak to that, the community of end users participating, and end user usage overall. >> Yeah, so when we first met in Seattle four years ago, we had three members of our end user community. We appreciated them joining early, but that was a tough call. But to be up to 124 now, representing almost every industry, all around the world, just a huge number of brand names, has been fantastic. What is interesting is, if you go talk to them, almost all of them are using Kubernetes as the underlying layer for their own internal PaaS, and so the regular developers in their organizations can often just want to type get push, and then have the continuous integration run and the things built and then deployed out and everything. But it's somewhat surprising there hasn't yet been a level of consensus on what that sort of common PaaS, the common set of abstractions on top should be. There's a ton of our members and developers and others are all working to sort of build that winning solution, but I don't have a prediction for you yet. >> And of course, skill interoperability and skill transferability is going to be key in growing this ecosystem, but I thought the stats on you know, the searches you can do on the number of job openings for Kubernetes is incredible. >> Yeah, so on the interoperability, we were very pleased to announce Tuesday that we've now passed 100 certified vendors, and of all the things that CNCF does, probably even including Kubecon, I might say that that certified Kubernetes program is the one that's had the biggest impact. To have implementations from over 100 different organizations that you can take the same workloads and move them across and have the confidence, those APIs will be supported, it's just a huge accomplishment, and in some ways, up there with WiFi or Bluetooth or some of the best interoperability standards. And then you mentioned the job support, which is another-- >> Yeah, I want to transfer engineers too, as well as workloads. >> --area that we're thrilled, and we just launched that, but we now have a couple hundred jobs listed on it and a bunch of people applying, and it's just a perfect example of the kind of ecosystem development that we're thrilled to do, and in particular the fact that we're not charging either the employers or the applicants, so it's jobs.CNCF.io to get access to that. >> Great. Dan, you also mentioned in your keynote, Kubernetes has crossed the chasm. That changes the challenges that you have when you start talking about you know, the early or mid majority environment, so I know you've been flying around the globe, there's not only the three big events, but many small events, talk about how CNCF6 mission helps you know, educate and push, I guess not push, but educate and further innovation. >> Yeah, and just enable. So, one of the other programs we have is the Kubernetes Certified service provider, these are organizations, essentially consulting firms, that have a deep expertise that have had at least three of their engineers pass our certified Kubernetes administrator exam, and it is amazing now that we've passed 100 of those, but they're in over 30 different countries. So we're just thrilled to see businesses all around the world be able to take advantage of that. And I do get to go to a lot of events around the world; we're actually, CNCF is hosting our first ever events in Seoul and in Sydney in two weeks, that I'm quite excited for, and then in February, we're going to be back in India, and we're going to be in Bengaluru, where we had a very successful event in March. We'll be there in February 2020 and then our first one in New Delhi, those are both in the third week of February. And I think it does just speak to the number of people who are really eager for these to soak this up, but one of the cool things about it is we're combining both local experts, half of our speakers are local, half are international, and then we do a beginner track and an advanced track. >> Yeah, Dan, you know, I'd just love a little bit of insight from you as to, there's a little bit of uncontrolled chaos when you talk about open source. Many of the things that we're talking about this year, a year ago, we would've been, oh my gosh, I would've never thought of that. So give us what it's like to be kind of at the eye of the hurricane, if you would. >> A lot of criticism, to be honest. An amazing number of people like to point out the things that we're not quite doing correctly. But you know, the huge challenge for an organization like CNCF, where, we're a non-profit, these events are actually spinning off money that we're then able to reinvest directly into the projects, so doing things like a quarter million dollars for a security audit for Kubernetes that we were able to publish. Or a Jepson testing for NCD, or improving documentation and such. So a big part of it is trying to create those positive feedback loops, and have that, and then another huge part is just, given all the different competing interests and the fact that we literally have every big technology company in the world on our board and then all of the, I mean, hundreds of start ups that tend to be very competitive, it's just really important that we treat organizations similarly. So that all of our platinum members are treated the same, all our gold, all our silver, and then within the projects, that all the graduated projects are treated similarly, incubating, sandbox, and people really notice. I have kids, and it's a little bit there, where they're sort of always believing that the other kid is getting extra attention. >> Yeah, right, you can't be the king maker, if it will, you're letting it out. Look out a little bit, Dan, and you know, we still have more growth to go in the community, obviously the event has room for growth. What do you see looking forward to 2020 and beyond? >> Yeah, I would love to predict some sort of amazing discontinuity where everyone adopts these technologies and then CNCF is not necessary anymore, something like that. But the reality is, I mean, I love that crossing the chasm metaphor, and I do think it's very powerful, and we really do say 2018 was the year that Kubernetes crossed the chasm from the early adopters to the early majority, but I would emphasize the fact that it's only the early majority. We haven't reached in to the entire second half of the curve, the late majority and the laggards. And so there are a ton of organizations here at the event who are just getting up to speed on this and realizing, oh, we really need to invest and start understanding it. And so, I mean, I don't, we also talk about there will be some point of peak Kubecon, just like peak Loyal, and I don't yet see any signs of it being 2019 or 2020, but it's something that we're very cognizant of and working hard to try and ensure that the event remains useful for people and that they're seeing value from it. I mean, there was a real question when we went from one thousand Seattle four years ago to four thousand in Austin three years ago, oh, is this event even still useful, can developers still interact, do you still have conversations, is the hallway track still valuable? And thankfully, I'm able to chat with a lot of the core developers, where this is their fifth North American Kubecon and they're saying, no, I'm still getting value out of it. Now, what we tend to hear from them is, "but I didn't get to go to any sessions," or "I have so many hallway tracks and private meetings and interactions and such," but the great thing there is that we actually get all of these sessions up on YouTube within 48 or 72 hours, and so, people ask me, "oh, there's 18 different tracks, how do I decide which one to go to?" And I always say, "go to the one where you want to interact with the speaker afterwards, or ask a question," because the other ones, you can watch later. But there isn't really a substitute for being here on the ground. >> Well, there's so much content there, Dan, I think if they start watching now, by the time you get to Amsterdam, they'll have dented a little bit. >> I'll give a quick pitch for my favorite Chrome extension, it's called Video Speed Player. And you can speed people up to 120, 125%, get a little bit of that time back. >> Yeah, absolutely, we have at the backend of ours, there is YouTube, so you can adjust the speed and it does help most of the time, and you can back up a few seconds if needed. Dan, look, congratulations, we know you have a tough role, you and the CNCF, we really appreciate the partnership. We love our community, it has had a phenomenal time this week at the show, and look forward to 2020 and beyond. >> I do as well, I really want to thank you for being with us through this whole way, and I think it is just an important part of the ecosystem. >> And I know John Furrier also says thank you and looks forward to seeing you next year. >> Oh, absolutely. >> Dan, thank you so much. John Troyer, I'm Stu Miniman, getting towards the end of our three days, wall-to-wall coverage here in sunny San Diego, California, thanks for watching theCUBE.

(mid-tempo music) >> Announcer: Live, from Los Angeles, it's The Cube. Covering Open source Summit North America 2017. Brought to you by the Linux Foundation and Red Hat. >> Okay welcome back and we're live in Los Angeles for The Cube's exclusive coverage of the Open Source Summit North America. I'm John Furrier, my co-host Stu Miniman, Our next guest is Steve Pousty, who's the Director of Developer Advocacy for Red Hat, Cube alumni, we last spoke at the Cisco Devnet Create, which is their new kind of cloud-native approach. Welcome Back. >> Thank you, thank you, glad to be here. >> We're here at the Open Source Summit, which is a recognition that of all these kind of ... With LinuxCon, all these things, coming events, it's a big ten event, love the direction, >> Yeah Validation to what's already happened and the recognition of open source, where Linux is at the heart of all that, Red Hat also you guys are the Linux standard, and gold standard, but there's more- >> We like to think of it that way, but- >> But there's more than Linux on top of it now, so this is a recognition that open source is so much more. >> For sure, I'm mean you can even see ... Who would've thought that there'd be a whole huge hubbub about Facebook doing a separate license for their react libraries and all the interactions with Apache, the Apache Foundation. Open source is so much ... it's the mainstream now. Like, basically, it's very hard to release a proprietary product right now and come up with some justification about why you have to do it. >> And why, and can it even be as good. >> Steve: Right. >> There's two issues, justification and performance. >> Yeah, quality, all that stuff. And also, customers' acceptability of that. Like, "Oh wait, you mean I can't actually even see the code? "I can't modify the code, I can't pay you to modify the code "and share it with everybody else?" I think customers have come to a whole ... Users of open source stuff, it's so permeated now that I think it's hard to be in the market without ... I mean, look at everybody who's here. Some of the people that are here were some of the biggest closed source people before. >> John: Microsoft is here. >> Exactly. >> John: IBM is here, although they've always been open, they were big on Linux early on. >> Yes. >> But now you're seeing the ecosystem grow, so we see some scale coming, but there's still a lot of work that needs to get done. We see greatness, like Kubernetes and Serverless offering great promise and hope for either multi-cloud workflow, workload management, all those cool stuff. But there's still some work to be done. >> Steve: For sure. >> What's your take on progress, where are we, what's the ... some of those under the hood things that need to get worked on? >> Well so, progress, I think ... the funny part is our expectations have changed so much over time that, so Kubernetes is about a little over two years old, and we're all like, oh it's moving so s-- why is it not doing this, this, and this? Whereas if this was like 10 years ago, the rate at which Kubernetes is moving is phenomenal. So, basically, every quarter there is a new release of Kubernetes, and we basically built OpenShift as a distribution on top of Kubernetes, and so we're delivering to our customers every quarter as well, and a bunch of them are like, "This is too fast, this is too fast, "like, we can't integrate all these changes." But at the same time, they say, "But don't slow down." Because, "Oh, next release we're going to get this thing "that we want and we know we want to go to that release." So, I think Kubernetes definitely has more growing room, but the thing is, how much it's already being seen as the standard, it's the ... so the way I like to talk about it, and I'll talk about this in my talk later, I think for Red Hat, Kubernetes is the cloud Linux kernel. It's the exact same story all over again. It's this infrastructure that everybody's going to build on. Now there are people who are standing up OpenStack on Kubernetes, or on OpenShift. So basically saying, "I don't want to install and manage "my Openstack, it's too difficult. "Give me some JSON and some components "and I'll just use Kubernetes as my operating plane." >> We saw Kubernetes right out of the gates, Stu and I, at the first Cube-Con, we were present at creation, and just on the doorstep of that thing just unfolded, and we saw the orchestration piece is huge, but I want to get your take if you can share with the audience, why Kubernetes has taken the world by storm. Why is it so relevant? What's all the hubbub about with Kubernetes? Share your opinion. >> Okay, so remember ... okay so this is a red shirt, and remember I work at Red Hat, so this obviously a biased opinion. I want to be up front about that. >> John: In your biased opinion ... >> Right, well as opposed to a neutral opinion, right, we definitely, so, I say that in front of my audiences just so that ... go do your own research, but from my perspective and what I've seen in the market place, there was a lot of orchestration and scheduling out there, then it kind of narrowed down, there's three players I would say right now. The three players all end with Kubernetes, but I just started with it (laughs). There's Kubernetes, there is Mesosphere, and there's Docker Swarm. I see those as being the three that are out there right now. And I think the reason we're ... So I won't talk about the others, but I see those ... Why Kubernetes has won is, one, community. So they have done a great job of being upstream, working with all people, being a very open community, open to working with others, not trying to make things just so it benefits Google's business but to benefit everybody. The other reason is the size of that community, right, everybody working together. The third is I think they, so some of it's luck, right? >> John: Yeah, timing is everything. >> Timing is everything. >> John: You're on a wave, and you're on your board and a big wave comes, you surf it, right? >> That's exactly, so I think what happened with Mesosphere is they're a great scheduler, and a lot of people said they were the best scheduler to start with. But they didn't really focus on containers to start with and it seems like they missed ... Like, Kubernetes said, "No, it's all about containers "and we're going to focus on container workload." And that's right where everybody else was. And so it was like, "I don't want to write "all that extra stuff from Mesosphere. "I want to do it with Kubernetes 'cause that's containers." And so that's the bit of luck lining up with the market. So I'd say it's the community but also recognizing that it's about containers to start with and containers are kind of taking over. >> Yeah, Steve, take us inside containers. You're wearing a shirt that says "Linux is Containers" on the front, if our audience could see the back it says "Containers are Linux." >> Steve: Exactly. >> Of course, Red Hat heavily involved. You're in the weeds, dealing with things that we're doing to make stability of containers, make sure it works in other environments. Tell us some of the things you're working on, some of the projects, and the like. >> So, some of the projects I'll be showing today, one is based off of OpenScap, Open S-C-A-P, it's another open consortium for scanning for vulnerabilities. We've written something called Atomic Scan, so it can take any OpenScap provider, plug it in to Atomic Scan, and you can scan a container image without having to actually run it. So, you don't actually have to start it up, it actually just goes in. The other thing I'm going to be talking about today is Bilda, this is part of the CNCF stuff. This is the ability to actually build a runC-compatible container without ever using Docker or MOBI. The way, a totally different approach to it, what you basically do is you say, "I want this container from this other container, or from blank," then you have a container there and then you actually mount the file system. So rather than actually booting a container and doing all sorts of steps in the container itself, you actually mount the file system, do normal operations on your machine like it was your normal file system, and then actually commit at the end. So it's another way for some of our customers that really like that idea of how they want to build and manage containers. But also, there's a bunch more. There's Kryo, which is the common runtime interface, and the implementation of it, so that Kubernetes can now run on an alternative container technology. This is Kryo, it's agnostic. If you looked at Kelsey Hightower's latest "Kubernetes and Anger," I think, or "Kubernetes the Hard Way" or something. His latest is building it all on Kryo. So rather than running on Docker, it runs ... All your container running happens on Kryo. I'm not trying to say, well of course I think it's better, but I think the point that we're really seeing is, by everything moving in to CNCF and the Linux Foundation and getting around standards, it's really enabled the ecosystem to take off. Like, TekTonic and CoreOS have done that with Rocket. We're going to see a lot more blossoming. The fertilizer has been applied, back from our ... >> Yeah, CNCF of two years old, I mean their fertilizer down big time, you got the manure and all the thousand flowers are blooming from that. >> Yeah, between Prometheus, I mean just, Prometheus, Istio, there's just ... I can't even keep track of it all. >> So Steve, you were talking earlier. Customers are having a hard time with that quarterly release. >> Steve: Yes. >> How do they keep up with all these projects, I mean you know, we rattled through all of 'em. You've got 'em all down pat, but the typical customer, do they need to worry about what do they have to focus on, how do they keep up with the pace change, how do they absorb all of this? >> Okay so it highly depends on the customer. There are some customers who are not our customers, I'll just say users, who are advanced enough on their own, who they're out there basically just, they're consuming the tip of what's coming out of CNCF. All that stuff, and they're picking and choosing and they're doing that all. For Red Hat, a lot of our customers are, "I like all that technology, you're our trusted advisor, "when you release it as a product "and I know I can sit on it for three years, "because you'll support it for at least three years, "maybe five years, then I'm going to start to consume it "and you'll actually probably put it into a more usable form for me." 'Cause a lot of the upstream stuff isn't necessary made direct for consumption. >> How are you guys dealing with the growth prospects. We've been talking about this all morning, this has been the big theme of this show is, not only just the renaming of a variety of different events, LinuxCon, but Open Source Summit is an encapsulation of all the projects that are blossoming across the board. So, the scale issues, and as a participant, Red Hat, >> Steve: Yes. >> Your biased opinion, but you're also incentive and you guys are active in the community. The growth that's coming is going to put pressure on the system. It may change the relationship between communities and vendors and how they're all working together, so again, to use the river analogy, there's a lot of water going to be pumping through the system. And so how's that going to impact the ecosystem, is it going to be the great growth that could flood everything, is there a potential for that, I mean you're an ecosystem guy, so the theory is there, it's like, Jim's stepping up with the Linux Foundation. I talked to him yesterday and he recognizes it. >> Steve: Yeah. >> But he also doesn't want to get in the way, either. >> Steve: No, no, no- >> So there's a balance of leadership that's needed. Your thoughts. >> So, I mean I think one of the things ... So I mean you know the Linux kernel has its benevolent dictator, and that works well for that one community, but then you'll see something like Kubernetes, where it's much more of a community base, there is no benevolent dictator for life on Kubernetes. I think one of the nice things that the Linux Foundation has done, and which Red Hat has acknowledged is, you know, let the community govern the way that works for that community. Don't try to force necessarily one model on it. In terms of the flood part that you were talking about, I think, if you want to go back to rivers, there's cycles in terms of 10 year floods, 100 year floods, I think what we're seeing right now is a big flood, and then what'll happen out of this is some things will shake out and other things won't. I don't expect every vendor that's here to be here next year. >> And find the high ground, I mean, I mean the numbers that Jim shared in his opening keynote is by 2026, 400 million libraries are going to be out there versus today's 64 roughly million. >> Steve: Right. >> You know, Ed from Cisco thinks that's understated, but now there's more code coming in, more people, and so a new generation is coming on board. This is going to be the great flood in open source. >> I also think it's a great opportunity for some companies. I mean, I'm not high enough in Red Hat to know what we're doing in that space, but it's also a great opportunity for some companies to help with that. Like, I think, that's one of the other things that Linux Foundation did was set up the Javascript Foundation. That is a community that-- >> But that doesn't have Node.js, it's a little bit separate. >> No, I know, but think-- >> You're talking about the js, okay. >> But I'm talking about, but if you think about the client-side javascript, forget Node. Just think about client-side javascript and how many frameworks are coming up all the time, and new libraries. >> Stu: That's a challenge. >> So I think actually that community could be one that could be good to maybe gain some lessons from, as things happen more in open source. I think there are other open source communities. Like, I'm wondering like GNOME-- >> But the feedback on the js community is that there's a lot of challenges in the volume of things happening. >> And that's coming for us though, right? >> Yeah. >> That's what's coming, that's what's going to come for this larger ecosystem, so I think maybe there's market opportunity, maybe there's new governance models, maybe there's ... I mean, this is where innovation comes from. There's a new problem that's come, it's a good problem. >> Your next point of failure is your opportunity to innovate. >> Exactly, and it's a good problem to have, right, as opposed to, we have too few projects, and we don't really, no one really likes them. Instead, now it's like, we've got so many projects and people are contributing, and everybody's excited, how do we manage that excitement? >> So another dynamic that we're observing, and again we're just speculating, we're pontificating, we're opining ... is fashion. Fashion, fashionable projects. Never fight fashion, my philosophy is. In marketing, don't fight the fashion. >> Steve: Right. >> CNCF is fashionable right now, people love it. It's popular, it's trendy, it's the hip new night club if you will in open source. Other projects are just as relevant. So, relevance and trending sometimes can be misconstrued. How do you guys think about that, because this is a dynamic, everyone wants to go to the best party. There a fear of missing out, I'm going to go check out Kubernetes, but also relevance matters. >> Yes. >> John: Your thoughts. >> So I've seen this discussion internally in engineering all the time, when we're talking about, 'cause you know OpenShift is trying to build a real distribution, not like, "Oh here is Kubernetes," but a real distribution. Like when Red Hat ships you the Linux, gives you Linux, we don't just say, "Here's the Linux kernel, have a good time." We put a whole bunch of stuff around it, and we're trying to do that with Kubernetes as well, so we're constantly evaluating all the like, "Should we switch to Prometheus now, "when's the time to switch to Prometheus? "Oh it's trending really hot. "Oh but does it give us the features?" >> John: It's a balance. >> It's a balance, it's going to have to come down to, I hate to say it-- >> It's a community, people vote with their code, so if something has traction, you got to take a look at it. >> But I would say, and this has been going on for a while, and I've seen other people talk about it, if you are the lead on an open source project, and you want a lot of community, you have to get into marketing. You can't just do-- >> John: You got to market the project. >> You got to, and not in the nasty term of market, which is that I'm going to lie to you and like, what a lot of developers think about like, "Oh I'm just going to give you bullshit and lie to you, "and it's not going to be helpful." No, market in terms of just getting your word out there so at least people know about it. Lead with all your-- >> John: Socialize it. >> Yeah. I mean, that's what you got to get it, so there is a lot of chatter now. How do you get it noticed as a Twitter person, right? You have to do some, it's the same, it's going to be more like that for open source projects. >> John: So we're doing our share to kind of extract the signal from some of the noise out there, and it's great to talk to you about it because you help give perspective. And certainly Red Hat, you're biased, that's okay, you're biased. Now, take your Red Hat off. >> Okay. >> Hat off. Take your Red Hat hat off >> Steve: Propaganda hat off. >> and put your neutral hat on. An observation of Open Source Summit, I'll see that name change kind of significance in the sense it's a big ten event. This event here, what's your thoughts on what it means? >> Hey c'mon Steve, you've got a PhD in ecology, so we want some detailed analysis as to how this all goes together. >> I mean it's good marketing, Open Source Summit, good name change, little bit broader. >> I'm actually glad for it. So, I've gone to some other smaller events, and I actually like this, because it was hard for me to get to the smaller events, or to get quite enough people. Like this actually builds a critical mass, and more cross-fertilization, right, so it's much easier for me to talk to containers to car people. 'Cause automotive Linux is here as well, right? >> John: You can't avoid it, you see 'em in the hallways, you can say, "Hey, let's chat." >> "Let's talk about that stuff," whereas in the small ... So, you know, this is more about conferences. There's a good side and a bad side to everything, just like I tell my kids, "When you pick up a stick, you also have to pick up the other end of the stick." You can't just like have, "Oh this is a great part," but you don't get the bad part. So the great part about this, really easy to see a lot of people, see a lot of interesting things that are happening. Bad part about this, it's going to be hard, like if this was just CNCF, everybody here would be CNCF, all the talks would be CNCF, it's like you could deep dive and really go. So, I think this is great that they have this. I don't think this gets, should get rid of smaller, more focused events. >> Well at CubeCon, our CubeCon, the CNCF event in Austin, we'll be there for The Cube. That will be CNCF all the time. >> Steve: Exactly. I'm glad they're still doing that. >> So they're going to have the satellite event, and I think that's the best way to do it. I think a big ten event like this is good because, this is small even today, but with the growth coming, it'll be convention hall size in a matter of years. >> Well, exactly, and the fact that you made it into a big, and the fact that you've made it into this cohesive event, rather than going to somebody and saying, "Hey, sponsor these five events." Like, No. Sponsor this one big event, and then we'll get most of the people here for you. >> It's also a celebration, too. A lot of these big ten events are ... 'Cause education you can get online, there are all kinds of collaboration tools online, but when you have these big ten events, one of the rare things is it's the face to face, people-centric, in the moment, engagement. So you're learning in a different way. It's a celebration. So I think open source is just too important right now, that this event will grow in my opinion. >> Steve: For sure. >> Bring even thousands and thousands of people. >> I mean, another way-- >> John: 30,000 at some point, easily. >> Yeah, I think definitely it's theirs to lose, let's put it that way. >> John: (laughing) I'll tell that to Jim "Hey, don't screw it up!" >> Don't screw it up. I think the way that you could almost think of this is OSS-Con, right, instead of Comic-Con, this is like, this can become OSS-Con, which is like, they should probably ... In the same way that the Kubernetes Foundation works and grows with a lot of other people, it would be great if they could bring in other Foundations as well to this. I know this is being run by the Linux, but it'd be great if we could get some Apache in here, some Eclipse in here, I mean that would just be-- >> John: A total home run. >> Those foundations bringing it in-- >> That would truly make it an open source summit. >> Yeah, exactly, as opposed to the World Series that's only in the United States. >> Yeah. (laughing) >> Although you know, I was at a hotel recently, and they had baseball on, it was little league baseball though. Their World Series is actually, Little League World Series is actually the World Series. >> John: It's a global World Series. >> Yeah, like their-- >> John: It's the world. >> Yeah, as opposed to the MLB, right? >> Alright, Steve, great to have you on, any final thoughts on interactions you've had, things you've learned from this event you'd like to share and pass on? >> No, I just think the space is great, I'm really excited to be in it. I'm starting to move a little bit more up to the application tier at my role at the company and I'm excited about that, to actually ... So I've been working down at the container tier, and orchestration tier for a while, and now I'm excited to get back to like, "Well now let's actually build some cool stuff "and see what this enables on the up--" >> And DevOps is going mainstream, which is a great trend, you're starting to see that momentum beachhead on the enterprises, so-- >> Oh, one takeaway message, for microservices people, please put an Ops person on your microservice team. Usually they start with the DBA, and then they say the middle person and the front-end people. I really want to make sure that they start including Ops in your microservice teams-- >> John: And why is that, what'd you learn there? >> Well because if you're going to do microservices, you're going to be, the team's going to end up doing Ops-y work. And it's kind of foolish not to bring in someone who already knows ... The reason you want all the team together is because they're going to own that. And you also want them to share knowledge. So, if I was on a microservice team, I would definitely want an Ops person teaching me how to do Ops for our stuff. I don't want to reinvent that myself. >> You got to have the right core competencies on that team. >> Steve: Yeah. It's like having the right people in the right position. >> Steve: Exactly. >> Skill player. >> Steve: Yeah, exactly. Okay we're here live in Los Angeles, The Cube's coverage of Open Source Summit North America. I'm John Furrier, Stu Miniman. More live coverage after this short break. (electronic music)

>> Live from San Francisco. It's theCUBE. Covering DevNet Create 2017. Brought to you by Cisco. >> Welcome back everyone. We're here live in San Francisco for theCUBE's exclusive two days of coverage for Cisco Systems' inaugural event called DevNet Create extension. DevNet their classic developer program, for the Cisco install base of network routers. Now going to the cloud, native, going to the developer where dev-ops and the enterprise are connecting. I'm John Furrier, my cohost Peter Burris. Next is Dan Kohn, who is the Executive Director of the Cloud Native Compute Foundation, CNCF. Formerly known as Kubecon. Which is the event, Kubecon.io. Dan, great to see you. Executive Director, how's business, is going good? >> Fantastic! (John laughs) Yeah, six months ago we chatted at our last event in Seattle. And it's just amazing to see the progress since then. Projects members. >> It's been a whirlwind. Even I can't keep track. You guys are announcing all these new projects. What's the current count of projects that you guys have under the Cloud Native Compute Foundation? >> So we're up to 10. I should definitely start with the fact that Kubernetes is the anchor 10 in our original project. In a lot of ways, foundation was setup around that. And that project is just continuing to do incredibly well. Where it's one of the highest velocity projects in the history of open source. In terms of number of authors, number of commits, poll requests, issues. But now we have a constellation of other projects that are in support of that one. It can be used in a lot of different ways. >> John: Yeah. >> That we've been adding in. >> We had Craig McLuckie on earlier. Now he's with Heptio. Again, when he was doing that work, at Google, back in the days with what's his name from Microsoft now. >> Peter: Brendan Burns. >> Brendan Burns, yeah. >> Now it's an interesting question, where you say, oh, wait a minute, the three sort of key people behind Kubernetes, Craig McLuckie, Joe Beda, who's his co-founder at Heptio, then Brendan Burns, they all left Google. Is this a bad sign for the project and the technology? >> John: No, I don't think so. >> And we would say it's a spectacularly good sign. Now, if they had left and said, ah you know, containers, I'm going to do virtual machines. But in fact they said, there's such an enormous market for this. And to have Microsoft and Azure step in and say, we really want to invest in this space and we want to bring on one of the co-founders, Brendan. And for the other two co-founders, say, hey Google is making a huge investment. But we also think there's an opportunity for independent venture funded startup. >> Craig is completely passionate about this because there is an interoperability ethos that's always been around the open web. >> Dan: Umhmm. >> And certainly open source has the same ethos. Cloud Native brings an interesting thing, and it's clear now to people that there's not going to be one cloud winning them all. >> It's a multi-could world. >> Dan: Right. >> How is the Cloud Native Foundation floating in the open source world? Is it gravitating towards more infrastructure, more edge, software edge? Are you guys kind of in the middle? Are you guys the glue layer? How do you view that? >> Sure. So one way of looking at what we're doing is, helping to build a stack of software. That allows you to run your applications either on bare metal in your own data center or on any of the public clouds. Or hybrid solution where you're mixing back and forth. But the key idea is that all the core parts of that are open source. They're supported by multiple different vendors. And what that means is, you get to avoid lock-it. So today, Amazon web services has some of the most extraordinary engineering. They have all these great services that make it very easy to go onboard. But if you build your whole architecture around that, then you're stuck with AWS forever. And when time goes up, time to renegotiate your contract in a year or two, you're back again and don't have a lot of leverage. Where we think AWS is fantastic platform to run Kubernetes, to run our other projects on top of. But we don't think you want to lock-in to those services to such a degree. >> Okay, when I'm on, first of all, pretend I'm Amazon, I'm a competitive strategist, lock-in, I got to get you locked-in. I'm just going to run Kubernetes on Amazon. Why don't I just do that? >> We think that's a great solution. >> John: You do? >> Heptio and lots other folks make it very easy to run Kubernetes on Amazon. But we also think you should at least look at Kubernetes on Bluemix, on Google, on Azure. And know that in the future when you're negotiation comes up, even if you never leave, you at least threaten to leave. That you're not locked into that one vendor forever. >> So if you think about how the cloud industry structure is starting to layout, you knew we were going to have IAAS. >> Dan: Umhmm. >> SAS has been around for quite sometime. >> Dan: Right. >> The big question is what happens with that platform as a service. >> The developer world. >> Dan: Yeah. Some people think it's going to end up in the IAS element. >> Dan: Umhmm. Some people end up in the SAS. If it ends up in the IAS, you got the lock-in. Do you see a world going forward where developers have their own place, where they go and build and create software independent of either target but then add it to the various platforms. Is that a direction that you think this is all going to end up in? >> I do. Our view is that Heroku, which really invented this platform as a service concept or popularized it. You do, get push Heroku and magically your application's up. And then Cloud Foundry which came along and created a open source version of that. Those were two building blocks. But the Cloud Native essentially taking that scenario and saying, hey, that continuous integration, continuous deployment pipeline, that ability to deploy your software dozens of times per day, that's an absolute table ante for being a modern company. Not just a software company but arguably every company today needs to be doing software development like that. And then Cloud Native is a whole set of infrastructure around that to allow you to, not just have that environment in development but also to push it into production. >> So compare and contrast, based on your vision >> Dan: Umhmm. >> of how things are going to play out. A developer spends her time today doing this, and in three years, she's going to spend her time doing that. Kind of give us a sense of how >> Dan: Sure. >> you think it's going to play out. >> The simplest way to say it is that, Docker came along a few years ago, and was incredibly transformative technology for software development. It solved this really basic problem that, you hire a new employee and does it take her an entire day or entire week to get her environment together. Or can she just copy over the document container and be ready to go. And so I would argue it had the fastest uptake of any developer technology in history. But now when you have all those pieces running, okay, that's great in development, how do you get it in production? And my goal is that in a few years, hopefully much sooner, that those developers that are getting the container, they're getting the different pieces of microservices working. And then it's this tiny little YAML file that just says, here's the requirements for my application, here's what kind of redundancy it needs, what is backend databases, other sorts of things. And they're deploying it up. For most developers they can get out of that business of dev-ops. Of having to worry about all those issues. Your dev-ops team can be so much more efficient cuz Kubernetes and the related platform really enables that. >> I got to ask you, I just Tweeted cuz I had, make sure I captured it. I'm blown away by your success on the sponsorship participation. And usually it's a sign of opportunity. Because there's money making to be made, having the big vendors in there. But the growth of Kubernetes as you mentioned, all the success, we're well aware of that. But you got a lot going on. You're like got the tiger by the tail, your hair's blown back, you're running as hard as you can. Why are you guys successful? What is your gut? As executive director, you got to have the 20 mile stare but you also implement the here and now. >> Dan: Sure. >> How are you rationalizing the success? >> The most important point is, there's not some sort of magic formula, that CNCF has done or the Linux Foundation. And we're just so much better promoting or marketing it. At the end of the day, it really comes down to the developers behind Kubernetes. They've built a tool that tons and tons of people want to use. And that leverages 15 years of work that Google has done on containerization. Work that IBM and Docker and all of our other member companies, RedHat, have put together. And now, I think tiger by the tail is the right analogy. That we just happen to be, luckily, do have the technology and the constellation technology that a lot of folks want to do. The biggest thing we're trying to deal with is, some of the challenges around scaling. There's over 17 hundred authors. Individual developers contributed to Kubernetes in the last 12 months. Trying to figure out how can we get good reviews of all their codes, better documentation. >> There is a secret formula if you look at it. In away, relevance is one of them. >> Dan: Umhmm. >> Being relevant and being an awesome technology. But what I want get your thoughts in is, I looked at Kubernetes right out of the gate and said, hmm, will this be a MapReduced moment for Google. >> Dan: Yeah. >> And interesting enough, they didn't pull the same move. They didn't just let Cloud Air, walk away with or someone. >> Dan: Right, exactly. >> They made sure that if they preserved it. Google kind of let MapReduced >> Dan: Yeah, I think-- >> on the side of the road. >> Dan: No, no, I think this-- >> Cloud Air ran with it. >> Google had something that they replaced it with. I mean the -- >> SPAN is pretty damn good. >> And that's an interesting thing because in a world of strategy, across technology, and this is related to this, is that it used to be, you define a process, and then let's call it the end level process, and then you would go off and you make it obsolete because you had something that was more efficient, more effective. And then you license the old technology. And that way, the industry built capacity around the old technology and you had the new, more efficient technology that drove your business forward. And I think that, I'm not saying that's exactly, I'm not saying that Google did that, that's the tremendous >> Google knew. >> effect it will have. >> John: I have sources that tell me that. I investigated this story three years ago or maybe four, maybe three years ago. Google had conversations going up to the Eric Schmidt level, and Larry Page level, do we keep Kubernetes, do we open source it? And it went all the way to the top. And they almost wanted, they were afraid of MapReduced. Because MapReduced was a lost opportunity. Now they made it up but-- >> Now I would argue that there's a slightly subtler decision they had to make, where they have this internal system board, that is just tons of engineering and analysis and improvement has gone into it. They wrote Kubernetes as essentially next generation version of that. I think they kind of had four paths. Craig McLuckie was one of the key people behind that. Where they could have made it a proprietary service that if you're a customer of Google cloud, you get access to it. That's essentially what Amazon and Elastic Container Services today. Or they could have said, hey, we're going to open source it but we're still keep control of it. Essentially that's the path they went with the Go language. Where lots of people use it, lots of people contribute to it, but it's Google who decides at the end of the day, which direction it goes. Or they could have gone and created a Kubernetes Foundation. And if they'd gone to the Linux Foundation and said, we want to create a Kubernetes Foundation, they absolutely could have and that would have been a home for it. But when you look at all the complementary technologies that have come in, they would never have gone into a Kubernetes Foundation. So instead, they really chose the most open path of saying, no we want to have a Cloud Native Computing Foundation. Have Kubernetes be the anchor tenant for it. But then have a place that companies like Mesophere with Mesos and Docker with Docker Swarm and other partners can come in and agree on something. So today, we're really pleased to announce the container network interface, just got accepted as our 10th project. And that's used by those and also by Cloud Foundry. And then they can disagree on others, about the orchestration- >> So it's a liberating move, really, if you think about it. Because at the time this happened, there was a lot of land grab talk going on. >> Dan: Umhmm. >> Until Amazon was winning big the hockey stick was going up. >> Dan: Right. You saw the numbers, and financial performance. But there was a fear of lock-in. To your point. >> Dan: Right, exactly. >> Then Kubernetes provides a nice layer. And you guys as a group, are looking holistically and saying, choice and multi-cloud. Is that the vision? >> Definitely. But, I mean you can see, strategically why Google decided to do it. Because if you pick an open source platform, and say, hey, this is the best of breed approach. Now, you're actually willing to evaluate the cloud on what the prices are, the supplementary services, et cetera. Where before that, you might have just said, ah, AWS is the safe service, I'm going just go with that. >> But Kubernetes is an invasive technology. And I don't mean that in a bad way. (Dan laughs) >> When you decide to move with Kubernetes, you are foreclosing other options at your disposal. And so, I think what you're saying is that, Google wanted to ensure that it remained a consistent coherent thing. While at the same time, making it obvious to all those around them that also wanted to invest in it, that their investments were going to be safe and sound going forward. >> I think that's fair but on the other hand, I do want to say that very few companies have moved their entire business and all of their IT over to Kubernetes. >> Peter: Oh, I'm not saying that they would. >> We do recommend that they start with a stable service. >> Peter: But Meso and some of those other companies are now investing in Kubernetes as a platform. Or making a bet on Kubernetes, want to make sure that their bets are as good as their company is. >> Sure. But there are other orchestration plateforms still. So Kubernetes has plenty of competition. And our biggest competition of course is Enertia. Of folks not changing into anything. >> I got to ask you a question. So Leonard, our producer is just telling me, Kubernetes is boring per Craig McLuckie. So Craig said earlier in theCUBE today, Kubernetes needs to be boring. He said his biggest problem with Kubernetes is it's too exciting right now. >> Dan: That's great. Now what he means by that is, he's kind of making a play on words but his point is, it should be obstracted away. >> Dan: Yeah. In terms of Kubernetes. But that's a problem you have. It's too exciting. >> Dan: Umhmm. What's your reaction to his comment that Kubernetes needs to be boring. >> He and I did a little Google trends comparison of Kubernetes and TensorFlow, which is another open source project out of Google. TensorFlow is something like three or four acts. And artificial intelligence is just so much more interesting and exciting. And yeah, I certainly would love to see a situation. We have this metaphor for Linux, with the Linux Foundation. That we describe it as plumbing. Where it's so intrinsic to almost every piece of technology in existence. And like plumbing, you'll get very upset when if it stops working. And you'll know it and you'll complain. But there's a huge piece of what we're trying to do which is the infrastructure to make things work. >> Here's an idea. Marketing idea. Just call it AI for containers. >> Dan: That's good. >> It'll be the hottest thing on the planet. >> Dan, great to-- >> Peter: Probably be more be more exciting. >> Dan, great to see you. Congratulations on your success. >> Yeah. So I do want to just make a quick mention December sixth through eighth is CloudNativeCon and KubeCon. It's our biggest annual conference. We're looking to actually triple in size from Seattle to three thousand people or more. We have every expert coming in. Michelle Noorali and Kelsey Hightower are the co-chairs and are going to be speaking there. We would love to see a lot of you guys. >> John: In Austin. >> In Austin. >> We hope you'll be there. >> TheCUBE will be there. >> We'll definitely be there. >> Dan: As well to ah, >> We've been to the inaugural >> Dan: Exactly. >> show for KubeCon and Cloud Native conference. We'll defintely be there. December sixth through the eighth, in December, in Austin. Great time of the year to be in Texas. Congratulations on all your success. And as Kubernetes and nine other projects continue to get traction. Still exciting times. And as they say, we live in interesting times. (Dan laughs) This is theCUBE with more interesting, exciting, not boring stuff coming back from the inaugural event here at Cisco DevNet Create. I'm John Ferrier, Peter Burris. Stay with us.