>> Announcer: Live from Las Vegas, it's the Cube, covering VMworld 2017. Brought to you by VMware and its ecosystem partners. (bright music) >> Hi, I'm Stu Miniman, joined by Justin Warren, and you're watching SiliconANGLE's production of the Cube here at VMworld 2017. Three days of wall-to-wall coverage. Sometimes people ask me, "Stu, you guys are doing so many interviews, isn't it tiring?" I say well, but I get really good guests, and that makes my job really easy. We've had lots of customers on, I've been enjoying just as many others. One of the people that I've gotten to get to know through the VMware community, I'm thrilled to be able to bring back on the program, is Steve Herrod, who's now the managing director of General Catalyst. Steve, thanks so much for joining us. >> Thank you, I feel like a veteran of this program, I love being on it. >> Yeah, I remember back when we created one of our first what we called Sizzle Videos, we had B roll from you, and Pat Gelsinger before he was on the VMware side, so you are always welcome on our program. We're glad that we could find time that fit on both of our schedules. You made a guest appearance, a younger Steve Herrod maybe, in the keynote had a lot of us laughing, so. >> Yeah, that was fun to be back. I think the story's kind of interesting. I don't know if it got lost in the dialogue a little bit, but the idea was something seemed super novel at the time, and then it becomes kind of the new normal, right, and I think that was the point he was trying to make. And it was, it was truly the case back in the early years of VMware, trying to convince people to do these virtual machines was ridiculous. Now it's about all these other topics. >> I think back, you know, I've worked with VMware for 15 years, I think back to how many people I explained what is virtualization. When vMotion first came out, the awe and excitement on everybody's, but it's 2017, come on. Virtualization's like the legacy. Now it's cloud, and developers, and blockchain, and everything. >> Steve: Containers and serverless! >> Stu: Serverless. >> That's right. >> Well, I guess they brought up serverless before I did, so that's great. Steve, what's happening in your world these days, what are some of the big conversations? >> Yeah, this's obviously one of my favorite conferences to come back to also, just to really see what's going on at a top level. Mostly because of the customers that are here, and then, obviously the infrastructure vendors. But I don't know, I feel like as I get older and go through this industry longer, you see a lot of the new things that are popping up, and for me it's always been about heterogeneity. And when we started VMware, what actually mattered was you had different vendors of servers, and like, it caused chaos by having different server vendors. That's kind of tamed, yeah exactly, there's like the BIOS or the HAL, and Windows had to change, or something. And like, no one talks about that whatsoever now, but if you just kind of squint your eyes a little bit, the heterogeneity is now am I in a public cloud, or private cloud? Or maybe, do I put my software into a container versus a VM? So I just, I always like looking at what is the heterogeneity, and then what are the real customers supposed to do with it? How do they navigate it and what companies can be built to help you sort of smooth it out and use the different things. I've been doing that all my life, and continue to look for companies that do that. >> Yeah, that mix of different things in customers, particularly Enterprise customers, who have like nine of everything. It seems like with VMware and the AWS now being more, well, we're friends now. Whereas previously it was like, oh no, you have to pick one or the other. It's like the heterogeneous nature of things, is that well, actually no, we need to work with multiple of, you all need to play nicely with each other, otherwise we can't use you. Because even if I, you know, MNA, for example, I go and buy someone, they might have something different. And that seems to get lost a bit. The vendors seem to focus a lot on greenfields. So do you think that this kind of, we're friends and yes, you can use both of us, and it's all good, do you think that's the way it should always have been and that's going to be good for customers, they're going to adopt this and want more than they might have with something that was like, no, no, you have to choose. >> I think that's absolutely right. The way I've seen people doing things, the customer always wins. That's kind of, every time I have a startup who's gotten created and they have a great customer, and they say, you know, blank vendor won't work with us, I have them call the customer and tell them to tell their other vendor, work with this startup. And the good news is any company that's successful is super customer-centric and they do listen. I think in this case, it's really fascinating. If you think about it, it used to be, like, you've been covering this forever, it used to be VMware was about server consolidation. And that's like the furthest thing from anyone's mind now, right, now it's, the real limiter to doing these new things tends to be people and operational skills. And so the idea that you can use the same way you're used to working with infrastructure, the same way that you grade storage, and the same way you think about it, and then apply to a world that just kind of outsources all of the underlying goo that they used to do on the servers, it makes a ton of sense from a VMware customer standpoint. And yeah, obviously as you look at the relationships you have with Google or with Amazon, you know, they're very incented to have new cloud services that people are able to consume, and the number one problem for them is how do you get, like, real important apps to leverage these new services. So it's symbiotic in the sense that maybe some of these existing apps, as you start to morph them, they can leverage a Amazon or a Google service. And so it's helpful on the needs of the public clouds as well. >> One of the areas where the heterogeneity of the environment causes even more complexity is security. So I know that that's something you've looked at awhile, we've talked to some of the companies that you work with. Heck, I think, you know, IoT, the surface area, is just changing by orders of magnitude. Security, top issue being discussed here. You know, Pat Gelsinger got up on stage and says, hey, I need to apologize for the industry because we failed you. (laughing) So you know, Steve, why haven't your portfolio companies fixed all of this yet? (laughing) >> Why do you still have security issues? >> Stu: What's your take on what VMware is doing, and yeah. >> I mean, it's obviously something people, if there was the Cube in 1981, it would have been talking about security (laughing) as a challenge. But I do think, you know, things have changed quite a bit as of late. I think the number of really advanced attackers, you know, truly nation states or organized crime going after it, it's the same reason that robbers rob banks, cause it's where the money is. And so I think the sophistication has gone up. At the same time, when the complexity of the environment has gone up a ton as well. And so I would say if we were in the good old days of less sophisticated attackers and like, a closed-in data center with no roaming mobile phones or SaaS, like, we'd probably be in pretty good shape. But a combination of those has really made it take to the next level. I think, you know, I think you have to really look at the complexity of those changes right now. I think the fact that there is a public cloud and a private cloud and that you have a device that has certain characteristics and then you have your server, it leads to the heterogeneity that we were talking about before. And so I really obsess over companies that can come in, like VMware is certainly trying to do as well, but that really try and come in and make something where a single way of thinking about security applies wherever stuff is running. And I think it's just too complex to have to have different admins, different policies, different everything. And certainly, if nothing else, it'll keep you from moving faster and leveraging the full cloud models. >> Yeah, given that security is, has been, it's been an issue for forever. It seems like that's something that just doesn't change. Is that due to the fact that we haven't actually done anything about it the right way, or do you think that it's just an inherent situation that is not going away because the problem is humans? And the problem is always humans, everything is a people problem. But in this case, is security, is it just going to be something that we have to manage rather than solve? >> I personally think that, I'm pretty optimistic we can do so, so much better than we have. I think it's always been- >> Justin: We are coming off a pretty low bar, so. (laughing) >> I thrive under low expectations. (laughing) So it's really good. But on a serious note, I think that a lot of the way that people looked at security has always been the cat and mouse game, where it's, I'm trying to stay ahead of the other guy, whether it's zero days, or whether it's, I mean, now we're getting malware infected through ad networks that show up on your favorite websites and through emails, like, the sophistication of spam attacks, or phishing attacks, are just ridiculous now. I mean, it looks so realistic. So I'm just a big advocate of let's totally think a different way about how we do security. And one thing I talk about often and I'm really obsessed with is the notion of, okay, we're always going to try and stop the bad stuff from hitting, but now we actually have to stop it from doing damage once it's in. And that's whether it's the segmentation that goes on in the network or whether it's, I have companies that are really focused on doing it in web browsers, the notion that you really have to sandbox and keep things in place is something I think is going to be a big step forward. Even like a database level right now, whenever you hear, I broke into Anthem Health and stole like six million records, like maybe we have row by row encryption, or maybe we have ways that, again, try your best not to have them happen, but when they do, let's just stop the damage from being as big as it is. So a model like that I think will be a really important part of the security posture going forward, which just people haven't put enough effort into. >> Okay. >> Steve, we've talked to you the last few years about developers. This year, I know they've got a hackathon, but I don't see as many hoodies, there's no longer a developer track, even, Pivotal made an announcement this morning, I'm like, come on, they didn't bring James Waters out? Rob Mees like all dressed up, looking proper, with the blue shirt and you know, the blazer and everything, so, where are the developers for the community here? >> Well, I do know, like when we were first starting to introduce a developer track, the day we announced the spring acquisition, for those that were around for that, there was complete stares and just like, this audience is a great, great audience, mostly focused on infrastructure, and thus, you know, it really wasn't a good fit there. So I think part of it is just knowing your audience, knowing that the goal of this particular conference is to make IT-enabled development of apps in a new way. So I think it's very smart that it's changed the focus quite a bit. But I do think, you know, when you have this type of solution, you're trying to solve all the problems in the hypervisor layer or in the management tools layers that you have, I think, as you go and think, like, take the security model a little bit further, some interesting announcements and good things going on here, but I'm kind of obsessed also with how do we make developers do a better job of having the applications being protected in the first place? And so there's a lot of research and interesting startups that are around self-protecting software. And it's like really putting it at an even higher level in the stack. And that's something that you would do at an infrastructure layer. It's something you would actually do at a developer conference or a developer focus. So I think you got to just be careful that you know your audience, you're certainly talking about the right solutions, but you're aware of the different approaches to doing this. Especially for things like dev ops, you really need to really immerse yourself with how people are developing and shipping their software to get the solutions in place. >> Yeah, it does feel like VMware has stopped apologizing for existing, so, you know, sort of bringing developers and saying, you know, we have a developer track, it's sort of like, oh wait, no, no, no, we're cool, really, we're cool. Whereas letting that go feels more like, no, no, we know who we are, and this is our audience. We will be the best us we can be rather than trying to be someone else. >> I think the buzz I've gotten just from walking around as you all said as well, this has been a very positive VMworld, and again, it's not only not being apologetic, but it's also like real announcements and real partnerships that are shipping. You know, obviously the Amazon and Google being big ones, but just across the board. Yeah, there's a lot of positive, if you even look at like the top tracks that are going on, it's VMware on AWS. So there's like real progress, and I think there's real interest in that side of things that makes you not have to focus on some of the developer stuff that might have been focused on in the past. >> Yeah, well certainly they're doing well on things like NSX and VSAN, which just seem to be selling like hotcakes. >> Yeah, those are- >> So that helps. And customers love it. >> Very interesting, yeah. >> Yeah Steve, speaking of the public clouds, I mean, this year we're finally starting to see some of these things come together. For a few years, we were almost like, oh, you know, messaging was like, they don't exist, or they're book sellers, or you know, if they win, we all lose, and everything. I was at the AWS summit in New York City a couple of weeks ago, and there's a couple of sessions done by VMware, Amazon's in the booth, Andy Jassy gets a big applause here. Last year, I've been at re:Invent for a number of years, that big AWS show. I know you've been there for years, starting to see some of the people that, you know, were early in this community playing there, how do you see those worlds colliding, the landscape, the competition, the coopetition, you know, what interests you there these days? >> I think it's pretty clear, and people have been talking about this for a while, but it's more clear to me than ever that, you know, there's always a swing back and forth of decentralized, centralized, I think, I think what we're really trying to find out is what are the boundaries going to be between applications that live in the public cloud and applications that stay on premises. And it's usually tracking some level of certifications, some level of data movement, all the things that you all have talked about before. But I think, you know, whether it's 50% is in the public cloud or 80% or 20%, I think that's where these lines are being drawn now. And it's very obvious that customers who want some of the benefits of the public cloud are going to be using more, and VMware needs to be the guider to help them get there. And likewise, Amazon and Google, they'd love to have more of the on-premises workloads and have a way to really speak to those more valuable, in many cases, applications. So it makes perfect sense, this is like this, I guess, battle that'll be going on forever. And I don't want to forget this either. What I think is also fascinating is, we also have these, you know, people talk about edge computing, but whatever it is, there's increasingly powerful devices, network connected, even further from the data centers. So I think we're going to have, in the end we're going to have like these edge device things, you're going to have your own data center, and then you're going to have a plethora of public clouds and SaaS offerings. And I think, again, just getting back to the master theme, how do you tame and let people effectively use these different layers and protect them? That's going to be where I think a lot of interesting companies are born. >> Yeah, great point. Cause sometimes people conflate some of these things. Cause for me it was, the public cloud kind of pulled from the data center, and now you've got the edge kind of pulling, >> Steve: Yeah, the other way. >> You know, that relation from the public cloud and that interesting dynamic and, you know, where a customer lives. What's the role of IT in the future? What's the role of the CIO? Is there some of the things, did you look at those pieces? >> I try to, you know, I actually tried to create this, I tried to make this nerdy formula, like, the number one question for IT has traditionally been like, where should I run stuff to be most cost effective, most responsive from a time standpoint to my customers, that I can secure it, based on the type of data, that I can pass certain certifications. So in many ways, when we got started with VMware, it was all about, let's take inventory of all my applications and bucket them and choose which bucket could be virtualized, which had to stay native. Now they're bucketizing them and saying, which ones could run in the public cloud, which ones need to be rewritten? And I think at the end of the day, an IT, a good IT team will know the business value and the, like, the goal of these applications and then help provide the easiest way to run them and the right place for what they're trying to do. Again, whether it's these end devices or whether it is their own data centers or elsewhere, I think the idea that they're a broker of services, some of which they provide themselves and some of which they outsource, I think that's the modern IT role. >> Yeah, that's quite a substantial change from what IT has traditionally done. And there has been, talking to customers and service providers and vendors, there has been a shift in ability, I think. But it feels like it's still only just getting started, rather than it being, you know, well advanced. Is that what you're seeing as well? >> It's a real shift, like you're saying, I think it's, we used to say it's like moving from the builder of services to the broker or services. So I do think that's a good analogy, where it used to be, if I don't build it myself, I can't offer support for it, I can't do cost controls, I can't offer it quickly. And so now I think they're just realizing their job is to get you the best thing for what you need to do. And again, some percentage of that time, it is by building it themselves. >> Justin: Yeah, okay. >> Steve, I'll give the final word with a wildcard, you know, VR, AR, AI, ML, blockchain, Ethereum, you know, what's exciting you these days? What things are you looking, yeah, John Furrier's going to run up here and tell you about the ICO soon I think. (laughing) But you know, you're down from the Valley, what's real, what's interesting, especially from your technology standpoint? >> I have an awesome job, much like you, I get to meet interesting people all day long. And all of them have interesting ideas of where the world is going. All of them are optimists, they think they're going to be the one to deliver it, so I love that part of it. But cutting through what's real and what's hype versus not is really the core job. I guess for you as well. (laughing) So I would just say, as with the traditional Gartner cycle, things get so overblown, and then reality settles in, and then they go forward. I probably get five pitches a week on this is machine learning for blah, and if you even knew a little bit about AI and ML, you realize, no, you're using stats. Like, it's just being used to so many ways. And we used to do it with the cloud, cloud washing it was called at the time. So anyway, I do think there's a lot of really substantive things going on. I love the blockchain work. I think it's also been a little overinflated, but the idea that you can do distributive brokering and keep consistency is going to play out in all sorts of areas. Maybe John's ICO will be a sign of the future for the core piece there. But I'm a big fan of what's going on with the combination of proper machine learning that's successful by near-humans and that has cloud resources to back it. I think it's those two things, you have to have both of them to really just start attacking a lot of problems. And we look at, certainly I look at the ones as they apply to security and to things like that, but they apply across everything from medical to almost every other part of our life. So I see a lot of those right now, and I think it's going to be a pretty big change as we head forward. >> Awesome, well Steve Herrod, always a pleasure to have you on the program. Thanks so much for joining us. For Justin Warren, I'm Stu Miniman. The Cube will be back with lots more coverage from VMworld 2017. Thanks for watching the Cube. (bright music)

>> Announcer: Live from Santa Clara in the heart of Silicon Valley, it's the Cube, covering Cloud Foundry Summit 2017. Brought to you by The Cloud Foundry Foundation, and Pivotal. >> Oh my Bosh! One of the fun t-shirts here at the Cloud Foundry Summit. I'm Stu Miniman joined by my co-host John Troyer. We've had a day of some really good interviews, really liked geeking out, digging into this hybrid, multi-cloud world, John. Something that feels to be coming into focus a little bit more. I had a bunch of questions coming in, and many of them, at least, I have some answers as to where they're going. What's your take on the Cloud Foundry Summit? >> Yeah, my first Cloud Foundry Summit I thought was super interesting. We got to talk to a couple users, which is always really interesting, and also some folks from the foundation. It was insightful, actually. I talked to a few vendors here, and they said, well how's the crowd? I said, not big, but the people who are here are big. Right? In terms of, there weren't 20,000 people here, there were 1,700, but the companies that are involved are serious about Cloud Foundry, they're all in, they're building apps and they're not building one or two apps, they're building thousands of apps on Cloud Foundry and moving their whole enterprise over. So, that was kind of super enlightening to me. >> Yeah, I mean, John, we know the story here. We've talked at a number of events about this. When you've got big financial companies, insurance companies, people in healthcare, if they don't become more agile, they will be Uberized. We have to have a different term, right? Uber's in the news for all the bad reasons now, so Netflix was the old term, but that digital disruption by start-ups. So, when you hear companies, oh, we're a 75-year-old company, we're a 100-year-old company, we're becoming a software company, and therefore, we're going to take our thousands of apps, and somewhere writing, we always have the new things we're writing, and then we'll move some along. So, that application really spectrum of the new stuff, and then pulling along the old one with a platform like Cloud Foundry, being that bridge to the future if you will. >> Right. Right. And, we aren't talking about a small team chatting on slack. We're talking about, in one organization, thousands of developers, coordinating on this platform. >> Yeah, absolutely. We to talked Express Scripts, I think they said they're hiring about a thousand engineers in a little more than a year. So, big companies, a lot of things to move when we're talking, Liberty Mutual is like, oh we want 75% of our IT staff to be writing code, and today they're less than 50%. So, if you're sitting in that other 50%, the writing is on the wall that you need to move in that direction, or maybe we're not the right organization for you. I'm curious, your take about that retraining of staff, we know we have a shortage of skill sets. How do they learn? How do they get, is it certifications? Is it training? What have you seen? >> Well they did just announce the Cloud Foundry certification program here today. So, I think that was an interesting component that's needed for support for this. But, really the Cloud Foundry supports all sorts of technologies and I think you see it in both the contributors here and in the technology. So, it's polyglot world, I see a lot of people, the crowd, used to, known assistments are indeed doing more programming, doing more automation, and so I think it's all of a course. I think, look it's clear, in five or 10 years the profile of people in IT is going to look a lot different. And, this is one of the leading edges of it. >> Yeah. Coming to the show and we talked about it on the intro that drumbeat of Kubernetes really gaining the hearts and minds of developers, I feel like it's been diffused a little bit. I don't know whether Kubo is the answer, but it is an answer. We've talked to some people in the ecosystem, that have other options that they're doing. As well as, of course, companies like Google, which Kubernetes came out of and Microsoft who's embracing Kubernetes, they like choice, they want people to use their platform. Keeping a more open approach for Cloud Foundry to work with other pieces of open source in the ecosystem. It's goodness? Time will tell whether this one solution makes sense. What's your take on that? >> Sure, I think Cloud Foundry has always been known as the opinionated platform. But, I think now the subtleties have come out that, yes there are certain opinions in the way things are glued together, but as James Waters pointed out, they've always had different kinds of abstractions of things running on or in the platform, in terms of whole apps or server list, we didn't really talk about today. But, so Kubernetes is sitting beside there for people who want more knobs, who already have an app, that expects that kind of scalability and management, makes sense for the Cloud Foundry. I think, they seem pretty open to embracing whatever works, and in some ways it's an analogy to what going on in the clouds like Azure and Google Cloud Platform, and that it's like, look bring us your work loads, we will run them. So, I think that's kind of an opening of at least a publicly stance of an opening. >> Yeah. I like this as Steve O'Grady said in the conversation we had with him, there's a lot of choices out there and therefore customers really, they want that. Of course there's the paradox situation. How do I keep up on all the latest and greatest? I mean, three years ago, the last time I came to the show, was like 08 Docker, totally going to disrupt this. Now it's Kubernetes, we only brought up functions as a service or as a server less, like once, and it did not seem to fit into where this plays today. But, there's options out there. Customers that are here, like what they're doing. It is moving them forward, it is enabling them to be that faster, faster, faster. More agile, meet the needs of the business and stay competitive. >> Yeah. Steve's term was different tools for different jobs or something like that right? >> We always said at Wikibon, a torse is for courses. >> Yeah. I mean a polyglot is one way that Coops' Clouds Foundry world used to talk about it. But, I think different tools is a great way. There is, we're in a technical time of great diversity. Which is awesome right? There's no monoculture here, which is super interesting, I think. >> Yeah absolutely, also the move from Cloud Foundry really started out as a predominantly, a non premises deployment and Public Cloud is seeping into it. We talked to a couple of customers that are starting to use Public Cloud, and most of them who weren't using it today were understanding where it fits. Sorting that piece out and look at solutions like Cloud Foundry as one of those pieces that are going to give them flexibility moving forward. >> Yeah. I mean I think that this is something that's going to have to develop over time. Right? It's one thing to say, I'm a layer on top of another cloud, but Amazon really wants you to use its databases, and Google Cloud really wants you to use it's services. And so, you can only stay completely independent for so long without taking advantage of those things, as you evolve these platforms. So, there is that tension there, that will play out, but it's played out over and over again at the many levels in tact. So, we'll see some standard stuff there. If Cloud Foundry has enough value, people will use it as their deployment platform on MultiCloud. Well let's talk about MultiCloud. What you think Stu? But sometimes MultiCloud is more of an ideal than a practicality for many organizations. >> Yeah. What about Pivitol? So if we look at Pivitol, number they're doing in Cloud Foundry, was, last year was about 275 million, so that number had been shared in one of the earnings calls. Seems like a very well position for the Fortune 1000. I'm always trying to figure out. What is the tam that they can go after? Who does it work for, and who doesn't it? At OpenStack we talked about, well great, the Telco NFV market looks great, but is that 20 or 50 companies. For something like Cloud Foundry, there's lots of big revenue that they can get by knocking down many of these Fortune 1,000's. But, it does seem to be that enterprise grade, therefore there's dollars attached to that. It is something that they, Pivitol, has done a solid job of converting that need, using open source into actual software revenues. Yes, their services and labs are a critical, critical, critical piece of what they do, but it is the subscription of software that they built. Many of their clients were on, I know , a three year subscription and lots of those renewals have started coming now. Expectation is that we could see an IPO by them by 2018. It's been reported I'm sure Michael Dell would love to have another influx of cash that he can help fund all of the the things that he's doing. What's your take on Pivitol coming out of this? >> I mean, from here it looks like Pivotal is very comfortable with it's place and who it's customers are. I didn't see a lot of hedging about, we're going after a different market, or we're going for the individual developer, or we think this can be used by almost anybody. These are big companies we're talking about. In the key note this morning for the foundation, talked about enterprise grade. Talking about security, talking about scale, talking about developer experience. They're not shy about it. They're serious when they say they are an enterprise grade platform. So, which I think is great right? You should know yourself and I really feel like both the foundation and Pivitol, a big part of the foundation, does know itself and knows who's it's customers are. >> Yeah. I guess the only thing that I look at is, so many conferences that I go to, is this a platform that SAS companies are building on? As we look at what the future of companies, and especially in the technology space, are going to look like, yes we have some of these big companies that are using it, but you know there's not the, oh okay, work day and sales force, and all these companies, I haven't seen these companies that are already just software companies using it. It's the industry, older companies that are trying to get more into software and therefore this helps with their digital transformation. The companies that are born in the cloud, I haven't seen that in there, and that's fine. There's definitely a diversity of the marketplace. >> Yeah. If you look at a spectrum, we're saying that all SAS companies are software companies, well those SAS companies may be even more software company than a manufacturer or a finance company. So, I think that's okay. One thing they have to watch with the ecosystem and the customer base is the speed of evolution, the speed of the ecosystem, new entrants coming in. Can they keep the velocity of innovation up? I'm sure that's one thing they're looking at. >> Yeah. It is interesting right? Will the millennials be using Cloud Foundry caring about it? Or is this more the boomer, the older generation that have used it? >> Hey, it's not a job versus Steve McGrady, it's not a job versus Dotnet or Microsoft World anymore, but they're still a lot of job developers and new ones coming in. I think hey, there's still COBOL programmers. >> Alright. Want to give you final takeaways. For me some good quality users talking about their stories. There's reality here as you said, there wasn't any big shift is to what Cloud Foundry or the foundation or what they are doing. There's not some big pivot that they need to do. No pun on Pivotal. But, sometimes you go and you're like, are they tone deaf? Are they drinking their own Kool Aid? I think this group understands where they fit. They're focused on delivering it, definitely a changing ecosystem from previous years and how they fit into that whole cloud environment. I'll give you the final word. >> Sure. That goes with some of what you said. The people seem very productive. They seem happy. They seems super engaged. The show floor when the sessions were in session, there was nobody here on the show floor. People are here to learn. Which means that they're here to get stuff done. It's kind of a no nonsense crowd. So, I really enjoyed the day. >> Alright well, John always a pleasure to catch up with you. Appreciate you sitting in for the day and talking about all of this. You brought some great expertise to the discussion. Big thanks to the team here. We actually had four shows this week from the Cube, so as we get towards almost July 4th, which means that we get a deep breath before the fall tour comes. So, I want to thank everybody for watching. As always, check out thecube.net for all the videos from this show and all the other shows. If you see a show that we're going to be at and you want to be on, get in touch with us. If you have a show that we're not at, please feel free to reach out to us. We're really easy to get in touch with. For my co host John Troyer, I'm Stu Miniman. Once again as always, thank you for watching the Cube and we will see you at the next show.

[lively music] >> Man: Live from Santa Clara, in the heart of Silicon Valley, it's theCube, covering Cloud Foundry Summit 2017. Brought to you by the Cloud Foundry Foundation and Pivotal. >> Welcome back, I'm Stu Miniman with my cohost, John Troyer. Happy to welcome back to the program, actually a former colleague of mine, Cornelia Davis, Senior Director of Technology at Pivotal. Cornelia, it's great to see you. >> Thank you, thank you for having me. >> All right, so why don't you fill in our audience a little bit about your role at Pivotal, you've been involved since before the foundation in early days of everything happening. >> Yeah, and in fact I have been working with Cloud Foundry for longer than the Pivotal Company's existed. As you know, Stu, you and I used to work together at EMC in the corporate CTO office. >> Yeah, I remember a company named EMC. [Laughing] >> Yep. And I worked in the architecture group and we did architecture in emerging tech. And about five years ago, my boss, who you know, Tom McGuire, said, "You know, this platform as a service thing, I think is going to be pretty disruptive, and I want you to start looking at it. And so naturally we were EMC, VMware was incubating Cloud Foundry already, so I started playing with Cloud Foundry. So that was way back in the days of Cloud Foundry version 1.0. I'm one of those people who got to raise my hand and say, "Yes, I've been to every single Cloud Foundry Summit." [Stu Laughing] But fast forward then we had the Pivotal spin-off, and since the Pivotal spin-off, I joined the Cloud Foundry team proper, and I've been in a role working the product organization, working with James Waters, who I know you spoke to earlier today, and helping our customers kind of get their arms wrapped around what this...this isn't just the next application platform. How really, it's radically different, and how the applications, it enables a completely different style of application. And so really helping customers grok the differences about that. >> Yeah, Cornelia, I want you to help us dig into this a little bit, because when we look at any of these massive changes, a lot of times we say, you know, the technology is the easy part. It's really the change in mindset, the change in the structure, new skillsets. What are you seeing, what's different now than it was, say, three or five years ago, and what are those customer discussions that you're having? >> Yeah, and that's a great question, and I will say, and thanks for the opportunity to say this, is that the technology isn't always the easy part. [Stu laughs] So let me give you an example. So just earlier today I was on a call where somebody was talking about some user interviews that they had done with some programmers, and what they concluded at the end of that was that programmers really weren't comfortable with the "asynch" model for this particular API, and that they really wanted to just deal with the synchronous stuff. And the answer there is not that we say, "Oh, okay, we'll let you keep doing synchronous." The answer is that yes, there's a technology thing here that's hard, which is starting to think asynchronously and changing the way that we design our applications. So the technology's not always easy, but we have to go there, because in the cloud, where things are so extraordinarily distributed in a way, and the cloud is constantly changing in ways that it never did before, we have to adopt new technology models. So that's the first thing I'll say, is that we definitely, the technology parts are sometimes hard. That said, certainly over the course of the last four years, as I've worked with those customers, in the beginning, I spent a lot of time, as you know, I'm a technologist, so I spent a lot of time at the whiteboard, and sketching out architectures and talking about changes in the architecture of the platform or changes in the architecture of the application, but then I very quickly found myself talking to customers about the other things that are going to need to change around the edges. So if, for example, you want to start deploying software multiple times a day, you're going to have to change your processes, because you can't have the security office have to do a full audit of every change before it goes into production if it's going to happen three or four times a day. And if you do that, then does that imply organizational changes? So I spend a great deal of my time really talking about the whole DevOps and the people and process side of the equation as well. So last week, I was just - I'm part of the programming committee of the DevOps Enterprise Summit, and we just held that last week in London. And there we spent a lot of time talking about those elements as well. >> I spoke with somebody who was at that conference, and they said it was a little bit sobering, because there are people who have adopted a lot of these practices, and then there are people who are trying and then probably people who have not started yet. >> Cornelia: Yeah. >> As Coté calls them "the donkeys without the unicorn horns yet. >> Cornelia: Ah. >> But as you go out to the customer base, obviously part of what Pivotal is doing is really this huge Pivotal Apps push about showing people the culture. I mean, do you feel like it's a push or a pull, does the technology come first, and then the culture, does the CIO yell, or do the developers say, "We want this"? >> So we definitely get a little bit of both. I would say that I have had the great opportunity to work with a great number of these customers, so Allstate, for example, we've seen Allstate here at CF Summit year after year, and Opal spoke about Andy Zitney talking about this three or four years ago. Well, that was IT saying, "Hey," and that was more from the operations side saying, "Hey, we're going to build you a new platform," and then will they come? Now, they of course had to couple that together with, "Okay, we're not just going to build the platform, we have to put things in place to enable people to use it properly. So there's certainly- and that came a little bit more from Andy Zitney's vision. So it was a little bit more from the top, "Hey, we understand there's a better way, we're going to start making this available to you, and we'll teach you along the way." We absolutely see the opposite as well, though. Where we see the groundswell, which sometimes comes from a bunch of really smart people starting to play with the open source things. And saying, "Hey, there's got to be a better way," or the shadow IT. They're frustrated with the three-month cycles, and those things. So it isn't one answer, it's really both. It comes from both sides. >> All right. So Cornelia, you're good at understanding some of those next generation things. One of the terms that we've been talking about for the last couple of years is "cloud-native." Could you help us really kind of tease apart what that means in your customer base, and the way you approach and explain that? >> Yeah. So the term "cloud-native" is brilliant from the perspective of having a term for it that has really taken ahold. Because I would say that three years ago, I used to say to people, "Hey, cloud is not about where you're computing, it's about how you're computing." But in fact, that's not exactly accurate. And so, now that cloud-native is a term that's taken hold, I have modified my statement. And the statement that I like to make now is that, cloud, in fact, is where you compute. It could be a public cloud, it could be a private cloud, but it is more of a location. Cloud-native is the how. So I like to also characterize the cloud and cloud-native, really cloud-native applications, as two fundamental things. One is that cloud-native has reached levels of distribution that we have not seen before. We've been dealing with distributed systems and heck, in universities, there have been courses on distributed systems for 40 years. But even when I started my career 30 years ago, I started my career in aerospace doing embedded systems, and I remember working on a system where we had three processors. You know, that was as distributed as we got. And we actually mapped out on a whiteboard, okay, we're going to run this on this process and parallel with this on this process, and the point there is it was distributed, but we knew exactly what we had, and we could count on that being there. Now, it's reached a completely different, many many orders of magnitude more, in terms of the number of distributed components, as we go to microservices and those types of things. So that's one of the things that I characterize cloud and cloud-native, is highly distributed like we've never seen before. Couple that together with the other thing I just talked about with the embedded systems, that's very different from that, is constantly changing. Always changing. And whether that change is happening because of some catastrophe or that change is happening because we are doing an upgrade, a planned upgrade, it's constantly in flux. And so we have to do things differently for that. And so that, I think really, is what cloud-native is about, is the how, and like I said, highly distributed, constantly changing. >> All right. And what about the role of data, when we talk about that? Distributed architectures, storage is really tough in that kind of environment. >> Cornelia: Yep. >> And therefore, how does data play into it? >> Cornelia: Yeah, so cloud-native apps were really, as an industry starting, and here at CF Summit, people are really kind of grokking what that means. Highly distributed, small, loosely coupled components that we've put together, we'll talk about that collective in just a moment. But they're generally stateless and so on. So we understand cloud-native apps, but cloud-native involves data as well, as you said, now most of our customers that have, as you said, some of them are a little bit further along whether it's DevOps or it's cloud-native architectures, they're a little further along. And those that are quite far along, have a lot of microservices, and so you look at them, and if you look just at the microservices, you think, "Ah, beautiful. Loosely coupled, independent teams, and so on," and then you pull back the curtain, and you realize that those microservices are all tied to a shared database. There's this monolithic Oracle database or SQL server, something at the back end, that they're all tied to. And so in fact, when a team wants to make a rev on a microservice, they might still have to go through some of that planning and lockstep with lots of other teams, because, "Hey, I want to change something in the data." So the data, remember we just talked about highly distributed? Well, on the data side, it's not so highly distributed. Yes, we've got multi data centers, but we have, again, a predictable number of nodes. We know what we've got deployed. We have very rigid architectures and configurations and so on. So when we start to apply cloud-native to data, we look at the same goals we had with cloud-native applications, which is autonomy, so being able to have the different cloud-native components evolve independently, resilience, so that we have bulkheads and air gaps between them, all of those same goals, let's start to apply those to data. >> And you feel that that's not happening today yet. We're earlier in the process yet? >> It hasn't been happening. That's right. We're far far far earlier in the process. And so what we want to start to do is take that monolith that's sitting behind the curtain and we want to start breaking it apart. Now, the industry has definitely gotten to the point where they're starting to tackle this. And that was, I kind of had an epiphany about a year ago, I was working with a customer, talking to them about DevOps, talking about all these cloud-native patterns and practices, and the punch line was it was the data team of this organization. So they didn't understand the solutions, but they were understanding that they had pain points that were very reminiscent of the pain points that their colleagues in the application server teams had had, had been tackling for three or four years. So the types of technologies that we're starting to see emerge and the types of patterns we're starting to see emerge are things like unified logs, like applying Kafka to that problem of having a unified log and that be the source of record. And event-driven systems and those types of things. Every microservice gets its own database, which, yeah, we'll get some of that, but that's a kind of purist and not pragmatic way of looking at things. Caching plays a pretty big role in that, so caching in the past has been all about performance, but now when we start to look at patterns, how can we use caches to help us create those bulkheads and those air gaps so we get additional resilience in our microservices architecture? If we can put caches and there are companies like Netflix, like Twitter, who have done that, who have embedded caching deeply through their entire architecture. >> Well, do you think these technologies will come from the database or, well, let's call it the database projects and vendors themselves, or is that something, those patterns can get built into a platform, say, like Cloud Foundry? >> I think it's going to probably come more from the platform community, which is not to say that database vendors aren't thinking about that, but again, they are keeping the lights on with their existing product, so they have those quintessential business school constraints that are holding them back. >> A quick question on nomenclature. So a few years back as cloud-native was being coined, you also heard about 12-Factor apps, and that was one particular manifesto, and certainly the ops folks, I would call it at the time, said, "Well, wait a minute, that's great for your front end, but where are you storing your state?" >> Cornelia: Exactly. And so I love this conversation about >> Yep. cloud-native data. So that is what we're talking about here? >> That's exactly what we're talking about, is doing that. And so it allows us, it's interesting, because as soon as we take a model where we say, "Okay, every microservice gets its own microdatabase," then of course everybody in any large enterprise says, "Wait a minute, what about my data compliance, my data governance, how do I keep a customer that's stored in this database over here from diverging from the customer record that's stored in this other database?" I mean, we've spent decades talking about the 360 view of customers, because we've already been somewhat more fragmented than we wanted, and our knee-jerk reaction over the last several decades was, let's consolidate everything into one database. But with that comes slowness. It's the proverbial large, large ship that's hard to turn and hard to move. But what's different now is that we're starting to come up with some different patterns of doing that, what we call master data management in the past, we're applying completely different patterns now, where those individual microservice databases are really just seen as a materialized view of some source of record, and that source of record is just a time series of events, and you can always rebuild. You know, it's very interesting, because databases have had a log as a part of their architecture forever. For a very, very long time. And in fact, the log, arguably, is more important than any of the database tables that are stored on disk, because you can always recreate the database tables from the log. Now take that concept and distribute it. That's what cloud-native data is all about. To take what has been a single fabric, and now create a highly distributed, constantly changing fabric for data. And figuring out what those patterns are. >> Cornelia, I want to give you the final word. You've been to all the Cloud Foundry Summits. Either the customers or the event itself, what are some of the things that are kind of new and changing, that people that aren't at the show should know about? >> You know, I was walking down the hallway this afternoon, one thing I'll note that has changed, like I said, I was walking down the hallway with a colleague of mine, and he said, "I have 12 people from a single one of my customers here. 12 people." I spoke with somebody else who said, "Yep, another customer - not a vendor, but a customer - sent 30 people here." So we have- Cloud Foundry Summit in the beginning was a whole bunch of people who were the hobbyists, if you will. So I think we've reached that inflection point where we have the users, not just the hobbyists, but the true users that are going to leverage the platform. That's one thing that's changed. Some of the things- the other interesting thing I think that is really brilliant is the touch that the Cloud Foundry Foundation has. So I'll tell you, I submitted several papers here three years ago, when it was still the Pivotal Show. I could talk about whatever I wanted. I don't always get my papers accepted here now. And that is a good thing. That's a really good thing, so we have really democratized the community, so it truly is a community event. I think that's another thing that's happened, is kind of the democratization of Cloud Foundry, and I love that. >> Cornelia Davis, it's a pleasure to catch up with you, thank you so much for joining us. And John and I will be back with a couple of customers, actually, here at the Cloud Foundry Summit. So stay tuned and thanks for watching theCube. [lively music]

>> Narrator: Live from Santa Clara in the heart of Silicon Valley, it's the CUBE. Covering Cloud Foundry Summit 2017. Brought to you by the Cloud Foundry Foundation and Pivotal. >> Welcome back, I'm Stu Miniman joined by my cohost John Troyer. We're here at the CUBE's coverage of Cloud Foundry Summit 2017, we're the world wide leader in live tech coverage. Happy to welcome to the program Kim Bannerman who does the Developer Relations at Google. Recently to Google. And Ben Kepes who's an analyst with Diversity Limited. Thanks so much both for joining us. >> Thanks for having us. >> Thank you. >> Kim, you were up on the main stage yesterday and today MCing the event, really appreciate you joining us. Why are you at this event, why is the event important for developers? >> I got involved with Cloud Foundry before there was a Foundation so this has been my community for almost three years now. I'm not one of the oldie, oldie people but I feel like these are my people. >> Yeah, we had James on before so... >> Yeah, so you know. It's important to developers because it helps them move faster. I started out my career in consulting so one of the big heavy lifting items that we would always have to for our customers would be building a custom platform for an application. When I first heard about Cloud Foundry, shortly after it was launched into open source, I was like that's really interesting to me. >> Ben, do I remember right, is this the first time you've actually been at this event in person? >> Yeah it's funny, so I've been covering Cloud Foundry, writing about Cloud Foundry since before it was called Cloud Foundry. >> Yeah Ben, you were one of those clouderati people talking about ads >> Like platform right? >> and the temperature, for years about that stuff. >> And it's bizarre, I remember when Heroku and Engine Yard were all it was when it comes to pass. So I've been following the space but I've never actually been to a Cloud Foundry summit so it's awesome to be here and to get a sense and vibe of the community which is always a really important thing. >> What's your take so far, what's your overlay of the market? We're not talking about paths so much anymore, so what are we talking about. >> No it's interesting. Just recently I read a post opining about the death or otherwise of paths. I think what we're seeing now is really what Cloud Foundry is is more than a path. It's really about a fabric, a control fabric for a bunch of different modes of operating. From that perspective, it's been really great to be here. Seeing the new announcements, obviously Microsoft joining us is a big deal. Things like Cubo. It really does position Cloud Foundry in this container, server-less world. >> Kim, we were joking with Chip when we had him on earlier, talked about enterprise grade and that means a salesperson goes in and the front of the company, the C level suite, talking about digital transformation, how do you reconcile that with what you're hearing from developers? How do you have the business and developers, are they coming together more? >> Right, so I'll tell you this. If you see a message and tweets or collateral or a deck or a talk and it kind of hits you wrong, understand that you may not be the intended audience. So I think that serves... That will speak to a CTO level type of person but increasingly nowadays we're seeing enterprises saying, hey, don't call me enterprise, we're actually an internet company like you are Google, we want to be like you. Don't call us this legacy, old school, all these different connotations that are attached to enterprise. Really we're just talking about larger companies of 10,000 employees or above, right. As far as meeting in the middle, The New Kingmakers, I love that book, Red Monk, great people. >> We're going to have Steve O'Grady on later. >> Yup, love them. I was seeing this happening when I started organizing user groups back in Atlanta in 2010 and 2011 where deals were happening but used to happen and say here, I'm signing this but you're going to have to live with it and I'm throwing it over the fence to my team and we're done. More and more those folks are coming into EBCs, tech leads, architects, developers, systems administrators, devOps, whatever. They're absolutely influencing the deal and they really do want to see it and try it and know that they've got a community behind them, supporting them before they agree. >> Kim, you have worked with a lot of different developers and your perspective now at Google and IBM was the last place. So sure, the developers are going to be the new kingmakers but they're having to choose between different platforms. The joke used to be at the front end, the web, HTML people, the great thing about Java Script is there are so many frameworks to choose from and they're tearing their hair out every year cause there's a new set. Now the backend, the folks who are doing the orchestration and the distributed systems and all the stuff we're talking about here, they also have some choices to make, look at different architectures, look at different stacks. What do you see as the developers that you're talking with, how are they approaching this in this multi-cloud world that they're dealing with? >> Ben made a good point on Twitter earlier today about multi-cloud, it happens for multiple reasons. Someone said this is the reason and then Ben, I'll let him speak to that, I won't steal his thunder. But for me, it's different, we can say it from the product level, it's different use cases. But quite frankly, there are multitudes of various different types of developers doing various different types of applications inside any given large customer. That's why you've seen, not to shield, Google has partnered we're doing PCF, Google roadshows, getting in with each other customers because that's definitely a big use case that we keep seeing. Then we also have container engine that's run by Kubernetes. It's just a matter of who your developers are. >> Google is big enough to embrace a lot of sets of developers. >> Absolutely, and it's not just about developers, which is a big pet peeve of mine, you got to think about all my ops people too and everyone else that's keeping the ship running. >> Shout out to ops people. >> Absolutely. >> Well Ben, what was your comment on Twitter? >> It's interesting. I guess there's a couple of different options and we've been told that multi-cloud the value propers that you've got a workload running on JCP, you want to move it to Azure or AWS. It's lists about that it's more about the CIO deciding that she wants to enable her developers to use whatever platform they want to use. It's funny, the developers are the new kingmakers meme. I'm not 100% comfortable with that because I think that absolutely developers build the solutions that allow an organization to be EdgeAll. But really it's still the CIO that gives them, or allows them, gives them the framework to use whatever tools they need. So I actually think that the developers versus IT tension is actually a fake one. What really needs to happen, what we're seeing in these more forward looking large enterprises, is the bringing together of those two worlds and enabling developers to use what they need. I totally agree with what Kim said about speed. At the end of the day, it's not the bigs that eat the small, it's the fast that eat the slow. Large enterprises want to feel more like a startup, more like an EdgeAll organization so I think that enterprise grade way of looking at the world was a way of looking at it from legacy days and we need to change that way I think. >> Ben, it feels like that Cloud Foundry and if I look at Pivotal specifically, are focused at those large enterprises getting a lot of traction. We see big companies that are on stage and here which there's a large opportunity there but different from what I see at certain shows where you're seeing smaller companies that are maybe embracing Kubernetes and containers a little bit more and not looking at Cloud Foundry. What are you seeing? >> I think it's pragmatic, it's totally not the sexy thing to say, but at the end of the day, developers will do what they are told to do, cause at the end of the day, they're in a job they have to deliver. So I actually think, I've spent some time talking to James Waters earlier on today to get an update on where Pivotal is with regard to PCF and I think this theme of allowing the CIO to enable their people to do what their people need to do is actually the right one. It's a really pragmatic approach. I think it's less about hey, let's try and keep all of these developers happy and try and be the cool tech vendor for the developer, it's about being the tech vendor that can help the CIO be the hero of their own development teams. >> Kim, there was a good question at the new stack panel this morning, how do people keep up with all of the new things, of course there's many answers but you're involved with lots of meetups, lots of different channels, what are you seeing as some of the best ways for people to try to get involved and try to keep up? >> It's a information overload. I would say tailor your feeds, whatever they are, to be very finite into the things that matter most to you. Like Sarah and some other folks said, there's Telepathy, there's Slack, there's mailing lists, Twitter obviously, User Groups, GitHub, that kind of thing. It's really important. I think a lot of us have gone through and looked at talks and videos after a conference, maybe we weren't able to make it. Those are super valuable to hear what the state of the union is on certain things. I like seeing independent analysts talk about a project. I think my customers enjoy that and they want to hear it from an objective perspective not just the company branding. >> I also think people still share things on blogs, even in 2017, a real-world development experience out there as it goes. In your new, as you're moving on in your role at Google, is there a broader role that you'll be looking at in terms of this whole ecosystem of developers and operators? >> Broader role. So building a program and basically attaching myself, we always laugh and say someone has to do a shot for every time you mention Kelsey Hightower's name, but Kelsey and I are going to be sticking together for a little while and I'm going to see what works for him. I did programs like this at IBM and at Century Link for Jared and those folks. I just want to see what the state of the union is there. >> You said you've been involved with Cloud Foundry for years, can you pull one or two things that you really have enjoyed about this community and how it has grown that people might not know if they aren't a part of it? >> Yeah, I think if you were here two years ago, it very much looked like the Pivotal show. There was a very close, Foundation had just been formed so there was a blurry line between where Foundation picked up and where Pivotal stopped. Those other companies that helped found the Foundation and the projects and were contributing upstream kind of felt like, oh well, okay, we're all in this together. But there was definitely a little how do we do this thing. This year's show, even from last year's show has grown significantly. The big differences are we've got people from all over the globe contributing to the project where I feel like we had a few places here and there early on. I love meeting the people and hearing their stories. >> Ben, with your analyst hat on, what do you going to be looking at the next few days? >> As I said, it's the first time I've actually been here but I have been following it since day one. I think I agree with Kim, I said a couple years before the Foundation was born that it was time for the project to grow up and move out from VMware as it was then. That's happened and it's actually quite neat to be here and to see that it isn't all Pivotal centric, that the fact that Microsoft is now a big part of the Foundation. It does feel like a mature and a vibrant ecosystem. It feels like things are in good form. >> Ben, slightly different question for you, you also wear a hat of working with a number of startups as an advisor. What do you see in the marketplace today? What are some of the big opportunities and big challenges for startups? >> I think helping with the complexity. At the end of the day, the world is going to be increasingly heterogeneous, whether that's multi-cloud or hybrid cloud or whatever name you want to put on that. So helping tools that help people wrap their arms around this increased complexion. There's a real opportunity there, things are getting busier, more and more complex. Removing some of that noise is a good opportunity. >> Well, if you don't like the complexity, you can always just live on Google's platforms and the things that they enable, right Kim? >> I think we are up to 60 something products now and more coming, so it's a lot. >> Alright, Kim want to give you and Ben final word, takeaways from the show. Maybe Kim, some of the community aspects. >> We're on day one really. Yesterday was kind of day one with the different workshops and Hackathons and things like that. I'm really looking forward to more talks and attracts today and tomorrow we have diversity luncheon and we'll see how the keynotes go in the morning but I'm meeting so many great customers and so I'm looking forward to meeting more tomorrow morning. >> Ben, you go to so many shows, what differentiates this one? >> Yeah I do and for me, I'm not an open source fanatic, by any stretch of the imagination, I equally go to propriety vendors and product shows as well as these ones. But what I will say is that I've been impressed with the coming together of the community and the supportive environment among the organizers and the attendees, so that's really refreshing to see. >> Ben, Kim, thank you so much for joining us. For John and myself, thanks for watching, we'll be back with lots more programming, thanks for watching the CUBE.

this is the cute live from the Moscone Center in San Francisco this is silicon angles continuous coverage a vm world 2010 now inside the cube we're back to continuous coverage of vm world 2010 live I'm John Ferrier from SiliconANGLE we are in the cube the cube is a broad social media broadcast that acquires knowledge and this segment is going to be very fun we have a group of entrepreneurs part of the cloud computing club that I'm proud to say that I was one of the cofounders of with Nate DeMarco and James waters and these guys have been in the trenches from cloud from the beginning and like to introduce to my left is rich Miller Bernard golden and Randy bias so these guys are entrepreneurs they've been out in the field ton of experience in the business cloud has arrived they were there at the beginning so we're going to share our experiences about why the cloud is so big and relevant and entrepreneurship what are the opportunities for startups because there is a lot of opportunity vmware is putting forth the framework that is going to enable a lot of growth and we heard from todd nielsen that for every dollar of vmware licenses may be about fifteen dollars of ecosystem money so that that's money and the VC panel we had here on Wednesday was talking about huge dollars going into cloud so we're gonna get the reality of kind of what's real some proof points and so the first question will go right down the line will start with rich what is the reality of cloud and just at a high level the entrepreneurial opportunities it's a shift it's big it's relevant is happening right now and we're on the scene here at Moscone well there are two there are two baskets as i see it entrepreneurially you're looking at cloud backward taking what's existing a lot of legacy stuff making it work appropriately making it work the way you'd like it to work in a cloud getting all the benefits then huge entrepreneurial opportunities cloud forward building new apps green field all things web web app looking at this as a you know doing new things not trying to repeat the old and if you drop them into those two categories Enterprise is paying first for the legacy but where the the real fun is and where the entrepreneurs really start to kind of converge is on the cloud forward stuff cloud for a great message good angle there Bernard what's your angle on this well we we see a lot going on in apps I was in a breakfast this morning basically the whole message the whole theme was apps kind of driving everything which is interesting because kind of change from a lot of IT organizations traditionally been very infrastructure focused so a lot of stuff around apps and stuff that helps apps the other thing that came out of that breakfast was a lot about cloud management how do you manage these environments how do you manage a lot of discussion about end-to-end management instead of siloed management for sure there's great opportunity there I don't know how to solve the problem with this great opportunity around that Randy you're Randy you got a growing business right now you started as an entrepreneur and you grew a business you're growing like crazy you're at you're on the doorstep of all the cloud scaling cloud scaling calm is your organization talk about your experience and what you see going forward vast majority the wisdom transition look at our engagements were basically they're really looking at ways to generate I think sort of continued consolidation business so the ecosystem is growing there's a lot of people out there in the trenches deploying as vmware change with this vm world this week I mean what's different and what are you guys seeing from your customers and prospective customers in the environment out there and what are the key issues holding things back or what are the key issues that are going to accelerate real cloud deployments and and and cloud service providers are part of this show too and that's a new dynamic we're seeing well one of the things that's pretty obvious about this show and kind of you could almost draw a bright line over the course of the last year or 18 months is that now we're no longer talking as much about infrastructure getting that right whether it's in the public cloud or in the enterprise today we're talking about platform and not so much platform as a service but here what you're looking at is the constructor construction kits the piece parts by which you start putting together platforms and then specific software applications that are cloud oriented this show and both the influence of spring vfabric all of that the cloud the director all of that starting to look at moving up the food chain much more about platform much more about the construction of applications on a scale of one to ten rich real deal ten being real deal with the spring source framework or zero non-starter spring oh that it's already in the bag it's it is done deal this is a real deal what we have here is the beginnings of truly platforms whether they're built inside the the enterprise or platforms as a service the construction kits for real applications absolutely Bernard hyper Stratus you're out talking to customers all the time and they got challenges said walk through some of your experiences with your clients and the marketplace well what I'll say is that what we hear about a lot what we work on a lot is security a lot of companies saying how do I secure my app particularly in a public cloud environment what do we do around that something that's a kind of a second order is we get called in a lot with companies say I put my app application up in a public cloud and the magic supposed to be that's scalable how come my apps not scaling and then we end up doing a lot of architecture re working so I think architecture is a big deal this is a if you want to take advantage of cloud computing characteristics your application must be ready to do that so I think that's that's the true drill down on the architecture thing that's not scaling thing just expand on that a little bit well what are the issues there well you know the vision is somehow automatically load goes up and the application star spawns at extra resources extra instances in the past the way that happened was you maybe had to provision hardware and then admin had to sort of go in and reconfigure everything the application that we brought down brought back up if you want to move that from a hands-on thing to an auto magically kind of thing your application has to be written such that it can gracefully add and subtract resources you have to have a management framework that supports that and you know those are new kinds of things basically because the old model was very static very hands-on so those kinds of challenges or concerns that we run into a lot Randy you're getting your hands dirty out there are you stitching all these things together and and you got a lot of successes talk about your experiences and you know things you've learned that were surprises and things that were not surprises and and challenge is going to going forward optimization the true pioneers in cloud computing their folks like Amazon and Google and what they have really pioneered is operating in massive scale I mean movie from enterprise computing cloud computing is like moving from the assembly line mechanism for manufacturing cars to the robotics factory mechanism for manufacturing cars it's very very different if you actually look in Amazon at Amazon's operations team there's two core components infrastructure engineering which writes software that automates hardware and data center operations which changes out the hardware and there's nobody in between just like in a robotics factory for cars you have people who design the robotics in the factory and you have the people who do QA on the line and meet and do maintenance on the robots and there's really nobody in between and so that when you go and you look at these guys and what that means and you talk about scalability like Bernards talking about you'll notice that somebody like Google has a huge number of sort of horizontal services something like Google FS or big table and MapReduce which are sort of these horizontal services across the entire data center that every single application leverages and that's how a single application for google is able to get skill but when you look into an enterprise data center every single application is its own silo sometimes all the way through it down through the network in the storage and that's why that's part of the reason why it's difficult to scale there are also application architectural constraints of course which and you know somebody like Bernard can help you out with but you know the fundamental way that you're actually designing the data center and how you provide horizontal services it was also what's going to enable true platform as a service to work on top of any infrastructure as a service so if you if you kind of ignore one to the detriment together if you don't build the infrastructure as a service right with those horizontal service layers then you can't really do the rest of the job we had we had the cube down in orlando for SI p event we had the cio of levi strauss tom peck on and one of the things that came out of that conversation randy was busting down the silos and he absolutely saying you know from his organization sample he wants to bus down those silos what can you share I mean you're in there you're busting down silos with your team what's what's the team configuration like what's the dynamic and just what are some of the conversations that you have I mean people like hey we love you and all sudden we can't do that I mean we've talked at the cloud clubs about yeah some of the politics and is it just riff on that a little bit it's gonna be scary you sure you want me to go there yeah go ahead we bring it out on the cube in our most successful engagements we basically sidelined the CIO and his entire stack because they wanted to do Enterprise competing with a cloud label on top of it instead of real cloud computing and they were obstructionist and they did not know how to decide eyes themselves I mean if you think about it Enterprise IT has a centralized department has has effectively been a monopoly inside of that each of those enterprises for 30 years and they do not understand how to fix their own Monopoly and the only way that you break down a monopoly is through competition and through funding those successful competitors that's part of why you see salesforce com being so successful marketplace their core competition for the longest time was internal implementations a CRM and so if you really want to build the real deal cloud today you've either got to have a CIO who's a visionary and is willing to make significant dramatic changes to the organization or you have to sideline the CIO and a stack and you actually have to go rogue and you have to build out a whole separate cloud division build out true cloud computing there and then somehow roll that back in or roll IT under it at a later date how do entrepreneurs out there learn from that so what would you share aussie sideline the CIO is always kind of a robe it's not a real long term strategy but you know you want to get the CIO there but what you're basically saying is is that CIOs are doing it because they're bunder pressure CFO cio is under pressure and the saying you just do cloud and they want to go cloud but the monopoly if you will kind of like an old mainframe mindset is pushing back and what they'll do is they'll throw some cloud out there and call it cloud right is that what you saying and they're not really doing real clout is that what you're saying I'm saying that just running just providing virtual servers on demand is not a cloud and if you look at the bar that in Amazon or Google or the pioneers in cloud or set it's about very low friction self-service IT capabilities which can only be delivered through automation and you know i'll tell you a brief story about a colleague of mine who's now at VMware and I want to mention name he was at credit suisse they built one of the first real deal clouds there five years ago and as soon as they had it up as saucers portal in UI and API and everything soon as they brought it up they put in a ticket wall because the IT support staff felt threatened that people could turn on their own servers and they didn't want them to so they said fill out a ticket and then we'll use your password and you hurt me and your credentials to turn on a server for you so that that's the sort of mindset facade was needed to keep the heat shield almost from the attacks right from the sabotage that was yet it's not so much sabotage it's you know any organization that builds up is going to send out the antibodies when ever you put something really distinctive and new in it and to Randy's point and actually to Barnard's about architecture if you try to take the way things have been built up until now and just drop them into a set of virtualized servers and say that's cloud it isn't it's basically taking a and creating a virtual version of your old data center that's not going to get you where you want to go okay so so play out how you think it's going to go down you guys think it's gonna be organically bottom-up or top down or both I mean how is this goes like client-server kind of evolved that way you know some pcs were hanging around lands came around so is it going to be a slow roll can or Big Bang I was a very interesting I heard a guy from Forrester this morning talked and he said and if you might know Forrester came out with a report not too long ago that was something like building your own private cloud it's a pipe dream or is it like it's much harder than you might expect and the interesting stat that he came out with was if you ask enterprise developers something like twenty five percent of them are doing cloud-based stuff typically an Amazon if you go to the infrastructure group something like six percent of them say oh yeah we're doing something around cloud and that told me two things one there's a lot of stuff going on that is stealthy or semi stealthy and the second is there's a big bow wave of stuff that's being done up in some public provider that's going to somehow go into production and I don't that going to go in production that public provider or if eventually the development team is going to come back to the ops team and say I've got a gift for you I'd like you to start running it and by the way it's designed as a cloud its architects as a cloud and you need to have the infrastructure to support them so it's ready you open the open the president I happen to have a cloud right here is that way well so it's a very part of me that was a very interesting set of stats because that implies there's a lot of impending change kept going coming down the road toward internal IT groups well we've talked about bursting out you know taking the enterprise and bursting out to the cloud a lot of the app development a lot of the the pre-production versions of these apps exist in the cloud and what's going to happen is as soon as you open the door and people are feeling safe enough it's going to be inbound not bursting out it's going to be bursting in Randy one of the one of the things I'm hearing is that data security is the number one issue around cloud can you talk a little bit about that from your experience so I is that true or is it not true I think it's a little overblown I mean security is definitely a concern I mean it would be you would be foolish not to be concerned about it but I think you are going to take the same steps you would if you are going to use now its source data center facility managed hosting I mean it's not there I think one of the things that's really humorous about this is people get really worried about the hypervisor when the hypervisors are relatively proven relatively secure technology but then they ignore things like vlans which are completely unauthenticated and everybody assumes are secure but in actually a cloud environment they're far less secure so there's there's a weird disconnect between what is a real security issue in the cloud and what people's concerns are because they don't understand the underlying technologies or structure so much and then when you look at some of the folks who are building certain offerings there are kind of on demand private cloud offerings that people are working on we're not going to share your server and pretty much all those issues go away and so it's just it's really it it's not some things have changed most of remain the same if you if you take your scent your same kinds of what that you go about enforcing security today behind the firewall and bring them out to the cloud they mostly translate actually and not to confuse the issue you've got security and then you've got the pragmatic issues of compliance most of these people most of these organizations live under a cloud you'll pardon the expression which is their requirement to be compliant with various kinds of regulation whether it's defined by the industry by the enterprise regulatory and being compliant means hitting the checklist those checklists have been built on the back of last generations architectures last generations technologies how do you determine whether a cloud implementation of a production app is compliant these guys are very conservative if there's any risk of not meeting compliance well that's a big message out your way that was a big message here for VMware in this hybrid cloud was that compliance is was one of the things that they were wrapping around that I mean is that a real deal is that going to be good is that going to be no thank you i think compliance has to change not so much the technology i mean really what do we think is is valid and all of these aspects of compliance have got to be revisited so I was doing security before a lot of the regulations went in for compliance and in the early days kind of mid 90s and the focus was around actually building secure systems and there's a certain amount of best practices that came out of that and then those were codified into a lot of the regulations and those those codifications of those best practices are about 10 or 15 years old a lot of the time and so the way that they don't translate to the cloud is if you just take them you know peace if you just say look we have to have a perimeter firewall you're on a cloud where are you going to put your perimeter firewall right no parameter right but you know should you have host-based firewall should you have an intrusion detection yet all of that trans the problem is is that you have to you know we've been moving away from a perimeter eyes dworld for 15-plus years but you still see a lot of organization security organizations that don't know how to provide real deal security you know clinging to what's easiest as opposed to trying to figure out what is real security how does that mesh with the compliance requirements they have and coming up with a strategy then that melds those two and most of those strategies will actually translate directly to the cloud because it's about bringing the security closer to the data absolutely one of the things that's happening here guys is cloud service providers are very visible in the announcements and it's-- changing and that IT can provide the kinds of services that cloud service providers can provide and dave vellante Wikibon and i were talking about well that might not be true that cloud surprise will always stay at a bit of head we had verizon on yesterday talking about some of their things is the cloud service provider model going to be a head of IT and will that be the security compliance component of IT how do you guys see the whole cloud service provider evolving all the above observations predictions it to believe that somebody like Verizon is at the leading edge of winning God services is but I don't want to dig on them too much but it is it makes sense if you if you actually look at the leader that's amazon and in 2009 amazon had 43 major releases for per month who can keep up with that pace right Google Yahoo maybe Microsoft but certainly not any of the major telcos service riders are not geared up to be software development or featured delivery shops and the same can be said of most IT department so you look at any of these projects as being you know two to three-year kinds of engagements that you know they're going to do six to nine months of due diligence on in our engagement and with the largest telco in Korea one of the largest in asia pac we stood up their private cloud in eight weeks eight weeks soup to nuts so so what's the prediction on the viability and position of the product the answers providers they you guys have to get in the game they've got they've got to build out more capabilities and they've got to stop worrying about the virtualization piece which is trivial and start thinking about the portfolio services that run on top of that platform is a surface ice cream mobile device offerings integration to 3g and wireless systems enabling new mobile apps social media apps they've really got to think about how what's the new set of cloud applications that's driving Amazon to 80,000 servers and more than half a million VMs in four years time what is that I mean the enterprise is not adopting right now these guys are going to get in the game by actually going to where the fire is not where the smoke is and then they better actually build you know cloud class systems in the same way that Amazon or Google does and they've got have ecosystem of services that actually allows them to be competitive on a portfolio basis not on a virtual machine-based right and they'll probably really about that do you rain I don't feel strongly about it they'll they'll distinguish themselves on the basis of either markets they serve geographic markets industries or the collections of added value features that they lend us realized it okay final question to wrap up guys because I look at the clock a little bit long what is the outlook of cloud and just give your perspective you know just from your entrepreneurial position and also as a practitioner as a guru all of you guys are there in the trenches you're building businesses you're getting stuff done just share in your mind what this future will unroll to look like I mean will it really be game-changing what are some of the things that you may see which is a vision well if it already is a game change what the focus is right now for the next few years it's going to be all mm ops and apps I mean its operations making the management of the infrastructure work correctly and building the next generation but the cloud forward apps full stop Bernard where do you go from that I'm well or your perspective I mean you're there you're the thing that I that you know is there's no question my mind in five years or ten years we will look back on the way I T has been done with this kind of very manual very long time the way we look back on you know when you see a movie you see somebody hand crank in a car let's go absolutely no yeah that was quaint and that was good but there's a reason why we don't do it anyway dialing a phone and we're dialing a phone and so I for sure there's no question there's gonna be a lot of pain between now and your ex and that pain is going to be localized in two different groups but for sure this is this is the way I t's gonna be done in the future no question about that that this is the biggest disruption that there's been to the IT industry in 30 years and it will be a 20 year transition and if you look at how many mainframe companies are still standing in the same way that they were standing before you that just tells you the amount of opportunity there it is huge there are all kinds of ways for you to figure out parts of this this equation solutions for different parts of the problems here which are enormous is Bernard and rich can tell you I mean there's just a huge number of problems to solve here there's all kinds of clever ways that you can get in the game and you can be involved you could be part of the disruption rather than be part of the disrupted and that would be my key message disrupt don't be disrupted 30 years for disruption 20 years of growth will be covering it on cloud angle calm and SiliconANGLE com thanks guys so much rich Miller Bernard golden and Randy bias in the trenches true entrepreneurs been there done that from the beginning and now going to ride the wave so good luck with everything and we'll check back in with you thank you so much thanks John