(upbeat music) >> Hello and welcome to theCube's coverage of International Women's Day. I'm John Furrier, your host of "theCUBE." We've got great two remote guests coming into our Palo Alto Studios, some tech athletes, as we say, people that've been in the trenches, years of experience, Lena Smart, CISO at MongoDB, Cube alumni, and Tara Hernandez, VP of Developer Productivity at MongoDB as well. Thanks for coming in to this program and supporting our efforts today. Thanks so much. >> Thanks for having us. >> Yeah, everyone talk about the journey in tech, where it all started. Before we get there, talk about what you guys are doing at MongoDB specifically. MongoDB is kind of gone the next level as a platform. You have your own ecosystem, lot of developers, very technical crowd, but it's changing the business transformation. What do you guys do at Mongo? We'll start with you, Lena. >> So I'm the CISO, so all security goes through me. I like to say, well, I don't like to say, I'm described as the ones throat to choke. So anything to do with security basically starts and ends with me. We do have a fantastic Cloud engineering security team and a product security team, and they don't report directly to me, but obviously we have very close relationships. I like to keep that kind of church and state separate and I know I've spoken about that before. And we just recently set up a physical security team with an amazing gentleman who left the FBI and he came to join us after 26 years for the agency. So, really starting to look at the physical aspects of what we offer as well. >> I interviewed a CISO the other day and she said, "Every day is day zero for me." Kind of goofing on the Amazon Day one thing, but Tara, go ahead. Tara, go ahead. What's your role there, developer productivity? What are you focusing on? >> Sure. Developer productivity is kind of the latest description for things that we've described over the years as, you know, DevOps oriented engineering or platform engineering or build and release engineering development infrastructure. It's all part and parcel, which is how do we actually get our code from developer to customer, you know, and all the mechanics that go into that. It's been something I discovered from my first job way back in the early '90s at Borland. And the art has just evolved enormously ever since, so. >> Yeah, this is a very great conversation both of you guys, right in the middle of all the action and data infrastructures changing, exploding, and involving big time AI and data tsunami and security never stops. Well, let's get into, we'll talk about that later, but let's get into what motivated you guys to pursue a career in tech and what were some of the challenges that you faced along the way? >> I'll go first. The fact of the matter was I intended to be a double major in history and literature when I went off to university, but I was informed that I had to do a math or a science degree or else the university would not be paid for. At the time, UC Santa Cruz had a policy that called Open Access Computing. This is, you know, the late '80s, early '90s. And anybody at the university could get an email account and that was unusual at the time if you were, those of us who remember, you used to have to pay for that CompuServe or AOL or, there's another one, I forget what it was called, but if a student at Santa Cruz could have an email account. And because of that email account, I met people who were computer science majors and I'm like, "Okay, I'll try that." That seems good. And it was a little bit of a struggle for me, a lot I won't lie, but I can't complain with how it ended up. And certainly once I found my niche, which was development infrastructure, I found my true love and I've been doing it for almost 30 years now. >> Awesome. Great story. Can't wait to ask a few questions on that. We'll go back to that late '80s, early '90s. Lena, your journey, how you got into it. >> So slightly different start. I did not go to university. I had to leave school when I was 16, got a job, had to help support my family. Worked a bunch of various jobs till I was about 21 and then computers became more, I think, I wouldn't say they were ubiquitous, but they were certainly out there. And I'd also been saving up every penny I could earn to buy my own computer and bought an Amstrad 1640, 20 meg hard drive. It rocked. And kind of took that apart, put it back together again, and thought that could be money in this. And so basically just teaching myself about computers any job that I got. 'Cause most of my jobs were like clerical work and secretary at that point. But any job that had a computer in front of that, I would make it my business to go find the guy who did computing 'cause it was always a guy. And I would say, you know, I want to learn how these work. Let, you know, show me. And, you know, I would take my lunch hour and after work and anytime I could with these people and they were very kind with their time and I just kept learning, so yep. >> Yeah, those early days remind me of the inflection point we're going through now. This major C change coming. Back then, if you had a computer, you had to kind of be your own internal engineer to fix things. Remember back on the systems revolution, late '80s, Tara, when, you know, your career started, those were major inflection points. Now we're seeing a similar wave right now, security, infrastructure. It feels like it's going to a whole nother level. At Mongo, you guys certainly see this as well, with this AI surge coming in. A lot more action is coming in. And so there's a lot of parallels between these inflection points. How do you guys see this next wave of change? Obviously, the AI stuff's blowing everyone away. Oh, new user interface. It's been called the browser moment, the mobile iPhone moment, kind of for this generation. There's a lot of people out there who are watching that are young in their careers, what's your take on this? How would you talk to those folks around how important this wave is? >> It, you know, it's funny, I've been having this conversation quite a bit recently in part because, you know, to me AI in a lot of ways is very similar to, you know, back in the '90s when we were talking about bringing in the worldwide web to the forefront of the world, right. And we tended to think in terms of all the optimistic benefits that would come of it. You know, free passing of information, availability to anyone, anywhere. You just needed an internet connection, which back then of course meant a modem. >> John: Not everyone had though. >> Exactly. But what we found in the subsequent years is that human beings are what they are and we bring ourselves to whatever platforms that are there, right. And so, you know, as much as it was amazing to have this freely available HTML based internet experience, it also meant that the negatives came to the forefront quite quickly. And there were ramifications of that. And so to me, when I look at AI, we're already seeing the ramifications to that. Yes, are there these amazing, optimistic, wonderful things that can be done? Yes. >> Yeah. >> But we're also human and the bad stuff's going to come out too. And how do we- >> Yeah. >> How do we as an industry, as a community, you know, understand and mitigate those ramifications so that we can benefit more from the positive than the negative. So it is interesting that it comes kind of full circle in really interesting ways. >> Yeah. The underbelly takes place first, gets it in the early adopter mode. Normally industries with, you know, money involved arbitrage, no standards. But we've seen this movie before. Is there hope, Lena, that we can have a more secure environment? >> I would hope so. (Lena laughs) Although depressingly, we've been in this well for 30 years now and we're, at the end of the day, still telling people not to click links on emails. So yeah, that kind of still keeps me awake at night a wee bit. The whole thing about AI, I mean, it's, obviously I am not an expert by any stretch of the imagination in AI. I did read (indistinct) book recently about AI and that was kind of interesting. And I'm just trying to teach myself as much as I can about it to the extent of even buying the "Dummies Guide to AI." Just because, it's actually not a dummies guide. It's actually fairly interesting, but I'm always thinking about it from a security standpoint. So it's kind of my worst nightmare and the best thing that could ever happen in the same dream. You know, you've got this technology where I can ask it a question and you know, it spits out generally a reasonable answer. And my team are working on with Mark Porter our CTO and his team on almost like an incubation of AI link. What would it look like from MongoDB? What's the legal ramifications? 'Cause there will be legal ramifications even though it's the wild, wild west just now, I think. Regulation's going to catch up to us pretty quickly, I would think. >> John: Yeah, yeah. >> And so I think, you know, as long as companies have a seat at the table and governments perhaps don't become too dictatorial over this, then hopefully we'll be in a good place. But we'll see. I think it's a really interest, there's that curse, we're living in interesting times. I think that's where we are. >> It's interesting just to stay on this tech trend for a minute. The standards bodies are different now. Back in the old days there were, you know, IEEE standards, ITF standards. >> Tara: TPC. >> The developers are the new standard. I mean, now you're seeing open source completely different where it was in the '90s to here beginning, that was gen one, some say gen two, but I say gen one, now we're exploding with open source. You have kind of developers setting the standards. If developers like it in droves, it becomes defacto, which then kind of rolls into implementation. >> Yeah, I mean I think if you don't have developer input, and this is why I love working with Tara and her team so much is 'cause they get it. If we don't have input from developers, it's not going to get used. There's going to be ways of of working around it, especially when it comes to security. If they don't, you know, if you're a developer and you're sat at your screen and you don't want to do that particular thing, you're going to find a way around it. You're a smart person. >> Yeah. >> So. >> Developers on the front lines now versus, even back in the '90s, they're like, "Okay, consider the dev's, got a QA team." Everything was Waterfall, now it's Cloud, and developers are on the front lines of everything. Tara, I mean, this is where the standards are being met. What's your reaction to that? >> Well, I think it's outstanding. I mean, you know, like I was at Netscape and part of the crowd that released the browser as open source and we founded mozilla.org, right. And that was, you know, in many ways kind of the birth of the modern open source movement beyond what we used to have, what was basically free software foundation was sort of the only game in town. And I think it is so incredibly valuable. I want to emphasize, you know, and pile onto what Lena was saying, it's not just that the developers are having input on a sort of company by company basis. Open source to me is like a checks and balance, where it allows us as a broader community to be able to agree on and enforce certain standards in order to try and keep the technology platforms as accessible as possible. I think Kubernetes is a great example of that, right. If we didn't have Kubernetes, that would've really changed the nature of how we think about container orchestration. But even before that, Linux, right. Linux allowed us as an industry to end the Unix Wars and as someone who was on the front lines of that as well and having to support 42 different operating systems with our product, you know, that was a huge win. And it allowed us to stop arguing about operating systems and start arguing about software or not arguing, but developing it in positive ways. So with, you know, with Kubernetes, with container orchestration, we all agree, okay, that's just how we're going to orchestrate. Now we can build up this huge ecosystem, everybody gets taken along, right. And now it changes the game for what we're defining as business differentials, right. And so when we talk about crypto, that's a little bit harder, but certainly with AI, right, you know, what are the checks and balances that as an industry and as the developers around this, that we can in, you know, enforce to make sure that no one company or no one body is able to overly control how these things are managed, how it's defined. And I think that is only for the benefit in the industry as a whole, particularly when we think about the only other option is it gets regulated in ways that do not involve the people who actually know the details of what they're talking about. >> Regulated and or thrown away or bankrupt or- >> Driven underground. >> Yeah. >> Which would be even worse actually. >> Yeah, that's a really interesting, the checks and balances. I love that call out. And I was just talking with another interview part of the series around women being represented in the 51% ratio. Software is for everybody. So that we believe that open source movement around the collective intelligence of the participants in the industry and independent of gender, this is going to be the next wave. You're starting to see these videos really have impact because there are a lot more leaders now at the table in companies developing software systems and with AI, the aperture increases for applications. And this is the new dynamic. What's your guys view on this dynamic? How does this go forward in a positive way? Is there a certain trajectory you see? For women in the industry? >> I mean, I think some of the states are trying to, again, from the government angle, some of the states are trying to force women into the boardroom, for example, California, which can be no bad thing, but I don't know, sometimes I feel a bit iffy about all this kind of forced- >> John: Yeah. >> You know, making, I don't even know how to say it properly so you can cut this part of the interview. (John laughs) >> Tara: Well, and I think that they're >> I'll say it's not organic. >> No, and I think they're already pulling it out, right. It's already been challenged so they're in the process- >> Well, this is the open source angle, Tara, you are getting at it. The change agent is open, right? So to me, the history of the proven model is openness drives transparency drives progress. >> No, it's- >> If you believe that to be true, this could have another impact. >> Yeah, it's so interesting, right. Because if you look at McKinsey Consulting or Boston Consulting or some of the other, I'm blocking on all of the names. There has been a decade or more of research that shows that a non homogeneous employee base, be it gender or ethnicity or whatever, generates more revenue, right? There's dollar signs that can be attached to this, but it's not enough for all companies to want to invest in that way. And it's not enough for all, you know, venture firms or investment firms to grant that seed money or do those seed rounds. I think it's getting better very slowly, but socialization is a much harder thing to overcome over time. Particularly, when you're not just talking about one country like the United States in our case, but around the world. You know, tech centers now exist all over the world, including places that even 10 years ago we might not have expected like Nairobi, right. Which I think is amazing, but you have to factor in the cultural implications of that as well, right. So yes, the openness is important and we have, it's important that we have those voices, but I don't think it's a panacea solution, right. It's just one more piece. I think honestly that one of the most important opportunities has been with Cloud computing and Cloud's been around for a while. So why would I say that? It's because if you think about like everybody holds up the Steve Jobs, Steve Wozniak, back in the '70s, or Sergey and Larry for Google, you know, you had to have access to enough credit card limit to go to Fry's and buy your servers and then access to somebody like Susan Wojcicki to borrow the garage or whatever. But there was still a certain amount of upfrontness that you had to be able to commit to, whereas now, and we've, I think, seen a really good evidence of this being able to lease server resources by the second and have development platforms that you can do on your phone. I mean, for a while I think Africa, that the majority of development happened on mobile devices because there wasn't a sufficient supply chain of laptops yet. And that's no longer true now as far as I know. But like the power that that enables for people who would otherwise be underrepresented in our industry instantly opens it up, right? And so to me that's I think probably the biggest opportunity that we've seen from an industry on how to make more availability in underrepresented representation for entrepreneurship. >> Yeah. >> Something like AI, I think that's actually going to take us backwards if we're not careful. >> Yeah. >> Because of we're reinforcing that socialization. >> Well, also the bias. A lot of people commenting on the biases of the large language inherently built in are also problem. Lena, I want you to weigh on this too, because I think the skills question comes up here and I've been advocating that you don't need the pedigree, college pedigree, to get into a certain jobs, you mentioned Cloud computing. I mean, it's been around for you think a long time, but not really, really think about it. The ability to level up, okay, if you're going to join something new and half the jobs in cybersecurity are created in the past year, right? So, you have this what used to be a barrier, your degree, your pedigree, your certification would take years, would be a blocker. Now that's gone. >> Lena: Yeah, it's the opposite. >> That's, in fact, psychology. >> I think so, but the people who I, by and large, who I interview for jobs, they have, I think security people and also I work with our compliance folks and I can't forget them, but let's talk about security just now. I've always found a particular kind of mindset with security folks. We're very curious, not very good at following rules a lot of the time, and we'd love to teach others. I mean, that's one of the big things stem from the start of my career. People were always interested in teaching and I was interested in learning. So it was perfect. And I think also having, you know, strong women leaders at MongoDB allows other underrepresented groups to actually apply to the company 'cause they see that we're kind of talking the talk. And that's been important. I think it's really important. You know, you've got Tara and I on here today. There's obviously other senior women at MongoDB that you can talk to as well. There's a bunch of us. There's not a whole ton of us, but there's a bunch of us. And it's good. It's definitely growing. I've been there for four years now and I've seen a growth in women in senior leadership positions. And I think having that kind of track record of getting really good quality underrepresented candidates to not just interview, but come and join us, it's seen. And it's seen in the industry and people take notice and they're like, "Oh, okay, well if that person's working, you know, if Tara Hernandez is working there, I'm going to apply for that." And that in itself I think can really, you know, reap the rewards. But it's getting started. It's like how do you get your first strong female into that position or your first strong underrepresented person into that position? It's hard. I get it. If it was easy, we would've sold already. >> It's like anything. I want to see people like me, my friends in there. Am I going to be alone? Am I going to be of a group? It's a group psychology. Why wouldn't? So getting it out there is key. Is there skills that you think that people should pay attention to? One's come up as curiosity, learning. What are some of the best practices for folks trying to get into the tech field or that's in the tech field and advancing through? What advice are you guys- >> I mean, yeah, definitely, what I say to my team is within my budget, we try and give every at least one training course a year. And there's so much free stuff out there as well. But, you know, keep learning. And even if it's not right in your wheelhouse, don't pick about it. Don't, you know, take a look at what else could be out there that could interest you and then go for it. You know, what does it take you few minutes each night to read a book on something that might change your entire career? You know, be enthusiastic about the opportunities out there. And there's so many opportunities in security. Just so many. >> Tara, what's your advice for folks out there? Tons of stuff to taste, taste test, try things. >> Absolutely. I mean, I always say, you know, my primary qualifications for people, I'm looking for them to be smart and motivated, right. Because the industry changes so quickly. What we're doing now versus what we did even last year versus five years ago, you know, is completely different though themes are certainly the same. You know, we still have to code and we still have to compile that code or package the code and ship the code so, you know, how well can we adapt to these new things instead of creating floppy disks, which was my first job. Five and a quarters, even. The big ones. >> That's old school, OG. There it is. Well done. >> And now it's, you know, containers, you know, (indistinct) image containers. And so, you know, I've gotten a lot of really great success hiring boot campers, you know, career transitioners. Because they bring a lot experience in addition to the technical skills. I think the most important thing is to experiment and figuring out what do you like, because, you know, maybe you are really into security or maybe you're really into like deep level coding and you want to go back, you know, try to go to school to get a degree where you would actually want that level of learning. Or maybe you're a front end engineer, you want to be full stacked. Like there's so many different things, data science, right. Maybe you want to go learn R right. You know, I think it's like figure out what you like because once you find that, that in turn is going to energize you 'cause you're going to feel motivated. I think the worst thing you could do is try to force yourself to learn something that you really could not care less about. That's just the worst. You're going in handicapped. >> Yeah and there's choices now versus when we were breaking into the business. It was like, okay, you software engineer. They call it software engineering, that's all it was. You were that or you were in sales. Like, you know, some sort of systems engineer or sales and now it's,- >> I had never heard of my job when I was in school, right. I didn't even know it was a possibility. But there's so many different types of technical roles, you know, absolutely. >> It's so exciting. I wish I was young again. >> One of the- >> Me too. (Lena laughs) >> I don't. I like the age I am. So one of the things that I did to kind of harness that curiosity is we've set up a security champions programs. About 120, I guess, volunteers globally. And these are people from all different backgrounds and all genders, diversity groups, underrepresented groups, we feel are now represented within this champions program. And people basically give up about an hour or two of their time each week, with their supervisors permission, and we basically teach them different things about security. And we've now had seven full-time people move from different areas within MongoDB into my team as a result of that program. So, you know, monetarily and time, yeah, saved us both. But also we're showing people that there is a path, you know, if you start off in Tara's team, for example, doing X, you join the champions program, you're like, "You know, I'd really like to get into red teaming. That would be so cool." If it fits, then we make that happen. And that has been really important for me, especially to give, you know, the women in the underrepresented groups within MongoDB just that window into something they might never have seen otherwise. >> That's a great common fit is fit matters. Also that getting access to what you fit is also access to either mentoring or sponsorship or some sort of, at least some navigation. Like what's out there and not being afraid to like, you know, just ask. >> Yeah, we just actually kicked off our big mentor program last week, so I'm the executive sponsor of that. I know Tara is part of it, which is fantastic. >> We'll put a plug in for it. Go ahead. >> Yeah, no, it's amazing. There's, gosh, I don't even know the numbers anymore, but there's a lot of people involved in this and so much so that we've had to set up mentoring groups rather than one-on-one. And I think it was 45% of the mentors are actually male, which is quite incredible for a program called Mentor Her. And then what we want to do in the future is actually create a program called Mentor Them so that it's not, you know, not just on the female and so that we can live other groups represented and, you know, kind of break down those groups a wee bit more and have some more granularity in the offering. >> Tara, talk about mentoring and sponsorship. Open source has been there for a long time. People help each other. It's community-oriented. What's your view of how to work with mentors and sponsors if someone's moving through ranks? >> You know, one of the things that was really interesting, unfortunately, in some of the earliest open source communities is there was a lot of pervasive misogyny to be perfectly honest. >> Yeah. >> And one of the important adaptations that we made as an open source community was the idea, an introduction of code of conducts. And so when I'm talking to women who are thinking about expanding their skills, I encourage them to join open source communities to have opportunity, even if they're not getting paid for it, you know, to develop their skills to work with people to get those code reviews, right. I'm like, "Whatever you join, make sure they have a code of conduct and a good leadership team. It's very important." And there are plenty, right. And then that idea has come into, you know, conferences now. So now conferences have codes of contact, if there are any good, and maybe not all of them, but most of them, right. And the ideas of expanding that idea of intentional healthy culture. >> John: Yeah. >> As a business goal and business differentiator. I mean, I won't lie, when I was recruited to come to MongoDB, the culture that I was able to discern through talking to people, in addition to seeing that there was actually women in senior leadership roles like Lena, like Kayla Nelson, that was a huge win. And so it just builds on momentum. And so now, you know, those of us who are in that are now representing. And so that kind of reinforces, but it's all ties together, right. As the open source world goes, particularly for a company like MongoDB, which has an open source product, you know, and our community builds. You know, it's a good thing to be mindful of for us, how we interact with the community and you know, because that could also become an opportunity for recruiting. >> John: Yeah. >> Right. So we, in addition to people who might become advocates on Mongo's behalf in their own company as a solution for themselves, so. >> You guys had great successful company and great leadership there. I mean, I can't tell you how many times someone's told me "MongoDB doesn't scale. It's going to be dead next year." I mean, I was going back 10 years. It's like, just keeps getting better and better. You guys do a great job. So it's so fun to see the success of developers. Really appreciate you guys coming on the program. Final question, what are you guys excited about to end the segment? We'll give you guys the last word. Lena will start with you and Tara, you can wrap us up. What are you excited about? >> I'm excited to see what this year brings. I think with ChatGPT and its copycats, I think it'll be a very interesting year when it comes to AI and always in the lookout for the authentic deep fakes that we see coming out. So just trying to make people aware that this is a real thing. It's not just pretend. And then of course, our old friend ransomware, let's see where that's going to go. >> John: Yeah. >> And let's see where we get to and just genuine hygiene and housekeeping when it comes to security. >> Excellent. Tara. >> Ah, well for us, you know, we're always constantly trying to up our game from a security perspective in the software development life cycle. But also, you know, what can we do? You know, one interesting application of AI that maybe Google doesn't like to talk about is it is really cool as an addendum to search and you know, how we might incorporate that as far as our learning environment and developer productivity, and how can we enable our developers to be more efficient, productive in their day-to-day work. So, I don't know, there's all kinds of opportunities that we're looking at for how we might improve that process here at MongoDB and then maybe be able to share it with the world. One of the things I love about working at MongoDB is we get to use our own products, right. And so being able to have this interesting document database in order to put information and then maybe apply some sort of AI to get it out again, is something that we may well be looking at, if not this year, then certainly in the coming year. >> Awesome. Lena Smart, the chief information security officer. Tara Hernandez, vice president developer of productivity from MongoDB. Thank you so much for sharing here on International Women's Day. We're going to do this quarterly every year. We're going to do it and then we're going to do quarterly updates. Thank you so much for being part of this program. >> Thank you. >> Thanks for having us. >> Okay, this is theCube's coverage of International Women's Day. I'm John Furrier, your host. Thanks for watching. (upbeat music)

>> Welcome everyone to "theCUBE's" coverage of "Compute engineered for your hybrid world," sponsored by HP and Intel. Today we're going to going to discuss how to transform your compute management experience with the new 4th Gen Intel Xeon scalable processors. Hello, I'm John Furrier, host of "theCUBE," and my guests today are Chinmay Ashok, director cloud engineering at Intel, and Koichiro Nakajima, principal product manager, compute at cloud services with HPE. Gentlemen, thanks for coming on this segment, "Transform your compute management experience." >> Thanks for having us. >> Great topic. A lot of people want to see that system management one pane of glass and want to manage everything. This is a really important topic and they started getting into distributed computing and cloud and hybrid. This is a major discussion point. What are some of the major trends you guys see in the system management space? >> Yeah, so system management is trying to help user manage their IT infrastructure effectively and efficiently. So, the system management is evolving along with the IT infrastructures which is trying to accommodate market trends. We have been observing the continuous trends like digital transformation, edge computing, and exponential data growth never stops. AI, machine learning, deep learning, cloud native applications, hybrid cloud, multi-cloud strategies. There's a lot of things going on. Also, COVID-19 pandemic has changed the way we live and work. These are all the things that, given a profound implication to the system design architectures that system management has to consider. Also, security has always been the very important topic, but it has become more important than ever before. Some of the research is saying that the cyber criminals becoming like a $10.5 trillion per year. We all do our efforts on the solution provider size and on the user side, but still cyber criminals are growing 15% year by year. So, with all this kind of thing in the mind, system management really have to evolve in a way to help user efficiently and effectively manage their more and more distributed IT infrastructure. >> Chinmay, what's your thoughts on the major trends in system management space? >> Thanks, John, Yeah, to add to what Koichiro said, I think especially with the view of the system or the service provider, as he was saying, is changing, is evolving over the last few years, especially with the advent of the cloud and the different types of cloud usage models like platform as a service, on-premises, of course, infrastructure is a service, but the traditional software as a service implies that the service provider needs a different view of the system and the context in which we need the CPU vendor, or the platform vendor needs to provide that, is changing. That includes both in-band telemetry being able to monitor what is going on on the system through traditional in-band methods, but also the advent of the out-of-band methods to do this without end user disruption is a key element to the enhancements that our customers are expecting from us as we deploy CPUs and platforms. >> That's great. You know what I love about this discussion is we had multiple generation enhancements, 4th Gen Xeon, 11th Gen ProLiant, iLOs going to come up with got another generation increase on that one. We'll get into that on the next segment, but while we're here, what is iLO? Can you guys define what that is and why it's important? >> Yeah, great question. Real quick, so HPE Integrated Lights-Out is the formal name of the product and we tend to call it as a iLO for short. iLO is HPE'S BMC. If you're familiar with this topic it's a Baseboard Management Controller. If not, this is a small computer on the server mother board and it runs independently from host CPU and the operating system. So, that's why it's named as Lights-Out. Now what can you do with the iLO? iLO really helps a user manage and use and monitor the server remotely, securely, throughout its life from the deployment to the retirement. So, you can really do things like, you know, turning a server power on, off, install operating system, access to IT, firmware update, and when you decide to retire server, you can completely wipe the data off that server so then it's ready to trash. iLO is really a best solution to manage a single server, but when you try to manage hundreds or thousand of servers in a larger scale environment, then managing server one by one by one through the iLO is not practical. So, HPE has two options. One of them is a HPE OneView. OneView is a best solution to manage a very complex, on-prem IT infrastructure that involves a thousand of servers as well as the other IT elements like fiber channel storage through the storage agent network and so on. Another option that we have is HPE for GreenLake Compute Ops Management. This is our latest, greatest product that we recently launched and this is a best solution to manage a distributed IT environment with multiple edge points or multiple clouds. And I recently involved in the customer conversation about the computer office management and with the hotel chain, global hotel chain with 9,000 locations worldwide and each of the location only have like a couple of servers to manage, but combined it's, you know, 27,000 servers and over the 9,000 locations, we didn't really have a great answer for that kind of environment before, but now HPE has GreenLake for computer office management for also deal with, you know, such kind of environment. >> Awesome. We're going to do a big dive on iLO in the next segment, but Chinmay, before we end this segment, what is PMT? >> Sure, so yeah, with the introduction of the 4th Gen Intel Xeon scalable processor, we of course introduce many new technologies like PCI Gen 5, DDR5, et cetera. And these are very key to general system provision, if you will. But with all of these new technologies come new sources of telemetry that the service provider now has to manage, right? So, the PMT is a technology called Platform Monitoring Technology. That is a capability that we introduced with the Intel 4th Gen Xeon scalable processor that allows the service provider to monitor all of these sources of telemetry within the system, within the system on chip, the CPU SOC, in all of these contexts that we talked about, like the hybrid cloud and cloud infrastructure as a service or platform as a service, but both in their in-band traditional telemetry collection models, but also out-of-band collection models such as the ones that Koichiro was talking about through the BMC et cetera. So, this is a key enhancement that we believe that takes the Intel product line closer to what the service providers require for managing their end user experience. >> Awesome, well thanks so much for spending the time in this segment. We're going to take a quick break, we're going to come back and we're going to discuss more what's new with Gen 11 and iLO 6. You're watching "theCUBE," the leader in high tech enterprise coverage. We'll be right back. (light music) Welcome back. We're continuing the coverage of "theCUBE's" coverage of compute engineered for your hybrid world. I'm John Furrier, I'm joined by Chinmay Ashok who's from Intel and Koichiro Nakajima with HPE. We're going to dive deeper into transforming your compute management experience with 4th Gen Intel Xeon scalable processors and HP ProLiant Gen11. Okay, let's get into it. We want to talk about Gen11. What's new with Gen11? What's new with iLO 6? So, NexGen increases in performance capabilities. What's new, what's new at Gen11 and iLO 6 let's go. >> Yeah, iLO 6 accommodates a lot of new features and the latest, greatest technology advancements like a new generation CPUs, DDR5 memories, PCI Gen 5, GPGPUs, SmartNICs. There's a lot of great feature functions. So, it's an iLO, make sure that supports all the use cases that associate with those latest, greatest advancements. For instance, like you know, some of the higher thermal design point CPU SKUs that requires a liquid cooling. We all support those kind of things. And also iLO6 accommodates latest, greatest industry standard system management, standard specifications, for instance, like an DMTF, TLDN, DMTF, RDE, SPDM. And what are these means for the iLO6 and Gen11? iLO6 really offers the greatest manageability and monitoring user experiences as well as the greatest automation through the refresh APIs. >> Chinmay, what's your thoughts on the Gen11 and iLO6? You're at Intel, you're enabling all this innovation. >> Yeah. >> What's the new features? >> Yeah, thanks John. Yeah, so yeah, to add to what Koichiro said, I think with the introduction of Gen11, 4th Gen Intel Xeon scalable processor, we have all of these rich new feature sets, right? With the DDR5, PCI Gen5, liquid cooling, et cetera. And then all of these new accelerators for various specific workloads that customers can use using this processor. So, as we were discussing previously, what this brings is all of these different sources of telemetry, right? So, our sources of data that the system provider or the service provider then needs to utilize to manage the compute experience for their end user. And so, what's new from that perspective is Intel realized that these new different sources of telemetry and the new mechanisms by which the service provider has to extract this telemetry required us to fundamentally think about how we provide the telemetry experience to the service provider. And that meant extending our existing best-in-class, in-band telemetry capabilities that we have today already built into in market Intel processors. But now, extending that with the introduction of the PMT, the Platform Monitoring Technology, that allows us to expand on that in-band telemetry, but also include all of these new sources of telemetry data through all of these new accelerators through the new features like PCI Gen5, DDR5, et cetera, but also bring in that out-of-band telemetry management experience. And so, I think that's a key innovation here, helping prepare for the world that the cloud is enabling. >> It's interesting, you know, Koichiro you had mentioned on the previous segment, COVID-19, we all know the impact of how that changed, how IT at the managed, you know, all of a sudden remote work, right? So, as you have cloud go to hybrid, now we got the edge coming, we're talking about a distributed computing environment, we got telemetry, you got management. This is a huge shift and it's happening super fast. What's the Gen11 iLO6 mean for architects as they start to look at going beyond hybrid and going to the edge, you're going to need all this telemetry. What's the impact? Can you guys just riff and share your thoughts on what this means for that kind of NexGen cloud that we see coming on on which is essentially distributed computing. >> Yeah, that's a great topic to discuss. So, there's a couple of the things. Really, to make sure those remote environment and also the management distributed IT environments, the system management has to reach across the remote location, across the internet connections, and the connectivities. So, the system management protocol, for instance, like traditionally IPMI or SNMP, or those things, got to be modernized into more restful API and those modern integration friendly to the modern tool chains. So, we're investing on those like refresh APIs and also again, the security becomes paramount importance because those are exposed to the bad people to snoop and trying to do some bad thing like men in a middle attacks, things like that. So we really, you know, focus on the security side on the two aspects on the iLO6 and Gen11. One other thing is we continue our industry unique silicon root of trust technology. So, that one is fortunate platform making sure the platform firmware, only the authentic and legitimate image of the firmware can run on HP server. And when you check in, validating the firmware images, the root of the trust reside in the silicon. So, no one can change it. Even the bad people trying to change the root of trust, it's bond in the chips so you cannot really change. And that's why, even bad people trying to compromise, you know, install compromise the firmware image on the HPE servers, you cannot do that. Another thing is we're making a lot of enhancements to make sure security on board our HP server into your network or onto a services like a GreenLake. Give you a couple of example, for instance, like a IDevID, Initial Device ID. That one is conforming to IEEE 802.1AR and it's immutable so no one can change it. And by using the IDevID, you can really identify you are not onboarding a rogue server or unknown server, but the server that you you want to onboard, right? It's absolutely important. Another thing is like platform certificate. Platform certificate really is the measurement of the configuration. So again, this is a great feature that makes sure you receive a server from the factory and no one during the transportation touch the server and alter the configuration. >> Chinmay, what's your reaction to this new distributed NextGen cloud? You got data, security, edge, move the compute to the data, don't move the data around. These are big conversations. >> Yeah, great question, John. I think this is an important thing to consider for the end user, the service provider in all of these contexts, right? I think Koichiro mentioned some of these key elements that go into as we develop and design these new products. But for example, from a security perspective, we introduce the trust domain extensions, TDX feature, for confidential computing in Intel 4th Generation Xeon scalable processors. And that enables the isolation of user workloads in these cloud environments, et cetera. But again, going back to the point Koichiro was making where if you go to the edge, you go to the cloud and then have the edge connect to the cloud you have independent networks for system management, independent networks for user data, et cetera. So, you need the ability to create that isolation. All of this telemetry data that needs to be isolated from the user, but used by the service provider to provide the best experience. All of these are built on the foundations of technologies such as TDX, PMT, iLO6, et cetera. >> Great stuff, gentlemen. Well, we have a lot more to discuss on our next segment. We're going to take a break here before wrapping up. We'll be right back with more. You're watching "theCUBE," the leader in high tech coverage. (light music) Okay, welcome back here, on "theCUBE's" coverage of "Compute engineered for your hybrid world." I'm John Furrier, host of the Cube. We're wrapping up our discussion here on transforming compute management experience with 4th Gen Intel Xeon scalable processors and obviously HPE ProLiant Gen11. Gentlemen, welcome back. Let's get into the takeaways for this discussion. Obviously, systems management has been around for a while, but transforming that experience on the management side is super important as the environment just radically changing for the better. What are some of the key takeaways for the audience watching here that they should put into their kind of tickler file and/or put on their to-do list to keep an eye on? >> Yeah, so Gen11 and iLO6 offers the latest, greatest technologies with new generation CPUs, DDR5, PCI Gen5, and so on and on. There's a lot of things in there and also iLO6 is the most mature version of iLO and it offers the best manageability and security. On top of iLO, HP offers the best of read management options like HP OneView and Compute Ops Management. It's really a lot of the things that help user achieve a lot of the things regardless of the use case like edge computing, or distributed IT, or hybrid strategy and so on and on. And you could also have a great system management that you can unleash all the full potential of latest, greatest technology. >> Chinmay, what's your thoughts on the key takeaways? Obviously as the world's changing, more gen chips are coming out, specialized workloads, performance. I mean, I've never met anyone that says they want to run on slower infrastructure. I mean, come on, performance matters. >> Yes, no, it definitely, I think one of the key things I would say is yes, with Gen11 Intel for gen scalable we're introducing all of these technologies, but I think one of the key things that has grown over the last few years is the view of the system provider, the abstraction that's needed, right? Like the end user today is migrating a lot of what they're traditionally used to from a physical compute perspective to the cloud. Everything goes to the cloud and when that happens there's a lot of just the experience that the end user sees, but everything underneath is abstracted away and then managed by the system provider, right? So we at Intel, and of course, our partners at HP, we have spent a lot of time figuring out what are the best sets of features that provide that best system management experience that allow for that abstraction to work seamlessly without the end user noticing? And I think from that perspective, the 4th Gen Intel Xeon scalable processors is so far the best Intel product that we have introduced that is prepared for that type of abstraction. >> So, I'm going to put my customer hat on for a second. I'll ask you both. What's in it for me? I'm the customer. What's in it for me? What's the benefit to me? What does this all mean to me? What's my win? >> Yeah, I can start there. I think the key thing here is that when we create capabilities that allow you to build the best cloud, at the end of the day that efficiency, that performance, all of that translates to a better experience for the consumer, right? So, as the service provider is able to have all of these myriad capabilities to use and choose from and then manage the system experience, what that implies is that the end user sees a seamless experience as they go from one application to another as they go about their daily lives. >> Koichiro, what's your thoughts on what's in it for me? You guys got a lot of engineering going on in Gen11, every gen increase always is a step function and increase of value. What's in it for me? What do I care? What's in it for me? I'm the customer. >> Alright. Yeah, so I fully agree with Chinmay's point. You know, he lays out the all the good points, right? Again, you know what the Gen11 and iLO6 offer all the latest, greatest features and all the technology and advancements are packed in the Gen11 platform and iLO6 unleash all full potentials for those benefits. And things are really dynamic in today's world and IT system also going to be agile and the system management get really far, to the point like we never imagine what the system management can do in the past. For instance, the managing on-prem devices across multiple locations from a single point, like a single pane of glass on the cloud management system, management on the cloud, that's what really the compute office management that HP offers. It's all new and it's really help customers unleash full potential of the gear and their investment and provide the best TCO and ROIs, right? I'm very excited that all the things that all the teams have worked for the multiple years have finally come to their life and to the public. And I can't really wait to see our customers start putting their hands on and enjoy the benefit of the latest, greatest offerings. >> Yeah, 4th Gen Xeon, Gen11 ProLiant, I mean, all the things coming together, accelerators, more cores. You got data, you got compute, and you got now this idea of security, I mean, you got hitting all the points, data and security big features here, right? Data being computed in a way with Gen4 and Gen11. This is like the big theme, data security, kind of the the big part of the core here in this announcement, in this relationship. >> Absolutely. I believe, I think the key things as these new generations of processors enable is new types of compute which imply is more types of data, more types of and hence, with more types of data, more types of compute. You have more types of system management more differentiation that the service provider has to then deal with, the disaggregation that they have to deal with. So yes, absolutely this is, I think exciting times for end users, but also for new frontiers for service providers to go tackle. And we believe that the features that we're introducing with this CPU and this platform will enable them to do so. >> Well Chinmay thank you so much for sharing your Intel perspective, Koichiro with HPE. Congratulations on all that hard work and engineering coming together. Bearing fruit, as you said, Koichiro, this is an exciting time. And again, keep moving the needle. This is an important inflection point in the industry and now more than ever this compute is needed and this kind of specialization's all awesome. So, congratulations and participating in the "Transforming your compute management experience" segment. >> Thank you very much. >> Okay. I'm John Furrier with "theCUBE." You're watching the "Compute Engineered for your Hybrid World Series" sponsored by HP and Intel. Thanks for watching. (light music)

>> Announcer: From around the globe, it's theCUBE, covering Space and Cybersecurity Symposium 2020, hosted by Cal Poly. >> Everyone, welcome to this special presentation with Cal Poly hosting the Space and Cybersecurity Symposium 2020 virtual. I'm John Furrier, your host with theCUBE and SiliconANGLE here in our Palo Alto studios with our remote guests. We couldn't be there in person, but we're going to be here remote. We got a great session and a panel for one hour, topic preparing students for the jobs of today and tomorrow. Got a great lineup. Bill Britton, Lieutenant Colonel from the US Air Force, retired vice president for information technology and CIO and the director of the California Cybersecurity Institute for Cal Poly. Bill, thanks for joining us. Dr. Amy Fleischer, who's the dean of the College of Engineering at Cal Poly, and Trung Pham, professor and researcher at the US Air Force Academy. Folks, thanks for joining me today. >> Our pleasure. >> Got a great- >> Great to be here. >> Great panel. This is one of my favorite topics. >> Thank you for the opportunity. >> Preparing students for the next generation, the jobs for today and tomorrow. We got an hour. I'd love you guys to start with an opening statement to kick things off. Bill, we'll start with you. >> Well, I'm really pleased to be, to start on this as the director for the Cybersecurity Institute and the CIO at Cal Poly, it's really a fun, exciting job, because as a polytechnic, technology has such a forefront in what we're doing, and we've had a wonderful opportunity being 40 miles from Vandenberg Air Force Base to really look at the nexus of space and cybersecurity. And if you add into that both commercial, government, and civil space and cybersecurity, this is an expanding wide open time for cyber and space. In that role that we have with the Cybersecurity Institute, we partner with elements of the state and the university, and we try to really add value above our academic level, which is some of the highest in the nation, and to really merge down and go a little lower and start younger. So we actually are running the week prior to this showing a cybersecurity competition for high schools and middle schools in the state of California. That competition this year is based on a scenario around hacking of a commercial satellite and the forensics of the payload that was hacked and the networks associated with it. This is going to be done using products like Wireshark, Autopsy, and other tools that will give those high school students what we hope is a huge desire to follow up and go into cyber and cyberspace and space and follow that career path and either come to Cal Poly or some other institution that's going to let them really expand their horizons in cybersecurity and space for the future of our nation. >> Bill, thanks for that intro. By the way, I just want to give you props for an amazing team and job you guys are doing at Cal Poly, the DxHub and the efforts you guys are having with your challenge. Congratulations on that great work. >> Thank you. It's a rock star team. It's absolutely amazing to find that much talent at one location. And I think Amy's going to tell you, she's got the same amount of talent in her staff, so it's a great place to be. >> Dr. Amy Fleischer. You guys have a great organization down there, amazing curriculum, amazing people, great community. Your opening statement. >> Hello everybody. It's really great to be a part of this panel on behalf of the Cal Poly College of Engineering. Here at Cal Poly, we really take preparing students for the jobs of today and tomorrow completely seriously, and we can claim that our students really graduate so they're ready day one for their first real job. But that means that in getting them to that point, we have to help them get valuable and meaningful job experience before they graduate, both through our curriculum and through multiple internship or summer research opportunities. So we focus our curriculum on what we call a learn by doing philosophy. And this means that we have a combination of practical experience and learn by doing both in and out of the classroom. And we find that to be really critical for preparing students for the workforce. Here at Cal Poly, we have more than 6,000 engineering students. We're one of the largest undergraduate engineering schools in the country. And US News ranks us the eighth best undergraduate engineering program in the country and the top ranked state school. We're really, really proud that we offer this impactful hands-on engineering education that really exceeds that of virtually all private universities while reaching a wider audience of students. We offer 14 degree programs, and really, we're talking today about cyber and space, and I think most of those degree programs can really make an impact in the space and cybersecurity economy. And this includes not only things like aero and cyber directly, but also electrical engineering, mechanical engineering, computer engineering, materials engineering, even manufacturing, civil, and biomedical engineering, as there's a lot of infrastructure needs that go into supporting launch capabilities. Our aerospace program graduates hundreds of aerospace engineers and most of them are working right here in California with many of our corporate partners, including Northrop Grumman, Lockheed, Boeing, Raytheon, SpaceX, Virgin Galactic, JPL, and so many other places where we have Cal Poly engineers impacting the space economy. Our cybersecurity focus is found mainly in our computer science and software engineering programs, and it's really a rapidly growing interest among our students. Computer science is our most popular major, and industry interests and partnerships are integrated into our cyber curriculum, and we do that oftentimes through support from industry. So we have partnerships with Northrop Grumman for professorship in a cyber lab and from PG&E for critical infrastructure cybersecurity lab and professorship. And we think that industry partnerships like these are really critical to preparing students for the future as the field is evolving so quickly and making sure we adapt our facilities and our curriculum to stay in line with what we're seeing in industry is incredibly important. In our aerospace program, we have an educational partnership with the Air Force Research Labs that's allowing us to install new high-performance computing capabilities and a space environments lab that's going to enhance our satellite design capabilities. And if we talk about satellite design, Cal Poly is the founding home of the CubeSat program, which pioneered small satellite capabilities, And we remain the worldwide leader in maintaining the CubeSat standard, and our student program has launched more CubeSats than any other program. So here again we have this learn by doing experience every year for dozens of aerospace, electrical, computer science, mechanical engineering students, and other student activities that we think are just as important include ethical hacking through our white hat club, Cal Poly Space Systems, which does really, really big rocket launches, and our support program for women in both of these fields, like WISH, which is Women In Software and Hardware. Now, you know, really trying to bring in a wide variety of people into these fields is incredibly important, and outreach and support to those demographics traditionally underrepresented in these fields is going to be really critical to future success. So by drawing on the lived experiences by people with different types of backgrounds will we develop the type of culture and environment where all of us can get to the best solution. So in terms of bringing people into the field, we see that research shows we need to reach kids when they're in late elementary and middle schools to really overcome that cultural bias that works against diversity in our fields. And you heard Bill talking about the California Cybersecurity Institute's yearly cyber challenge, and there's a lot of other people who are working to bring in a wider variety of people into the field, like Girl Scouts, which has introduced dozens of new badges over the past few years, including a whole cybersecurity series of badges in concert with Palo Alto Networks. So we have our work cut out for us, but we know what we need to do, and if we're really committed to properly preparing the workforce for today and tomorrow, I think our future is going to be bright. I'm looking forward to our discussion today. >> Thank you, Dr. Fleischer, for a great comment, opening statement, and congratulations. You got the right formula down there, the right mindset, and you got a lot of talent, and community, as well. Thank you for that opening statement. Next up, from Colorado Springs, Trung Pham, who's a professor and researcher at the US Air Force Academy. He's doing a lot of research around the areas that are most important for the intersection of space and technology. Trung. >> Good afternoon. First I'd like to thank Cal Poly for the opportunity. And today I want to go briefly about cybersecurity in space application. Whenever we talk about cybersecurity, the impression is that it's a new field that is really highly complex involving a lot of technical area. But in reality, in my personal opinion, it is indeed a complex field because it involves many disciplines. The first thing we think about is computer engineering and computer networking, but it's also involving communication, sociology, law practice. And this practice of cybersecurity doesn't only involve computer expert, but it's also involve everybody else who has a computing device that is connected to the internet, and this participation is obviously everybody in today's environment. When we think about the internet, we know that it's a good source of information but come with the convenience of information that we can access, we are constantly facing danger from the internet. Some of them we might be aware of. Some of them we might not be aware of. For example, when we search on the internet, a lot of time our browser will be saying that this site is not trusted, so we will be more careful. But what about the sites that we trusted? We know that those are legitimate sites, but they're not 100% bulletproof. What happen if those site are attacked by a hacker and then they will be a silent source of danger that we might not be aware of. So in the reality, we need to be more practicing the cybersecurity from our civil point of view and not from a technical point of view. When we talk about space application, we should know that all the hardware are computer-based or controlled by by computer system, and therefore the hardware and the software must go through some certification process so that they can be rated as airworthy or flightworthy. When we know that in the certification process is focusing on the functionality of the hardware and software, but one aspect that is explicitly and implicitly required is the security of those components. And we know that those components have to be connected with the ground control station, and the communication is through the air, through the radio signal, so anybody who has access to those communication radio signal will be able to control the space system that we put up there. And we certainly do not want our system to be hijacked by a third party. Another aspect of cybersecurity is that we try to design the space system in a very strong manner so it's almost impossible to hack in. But what about some other weak system that might be connected to the strong system? For example, the space system will be connected to the ground control station, and on the ground control station, we have the human controller, and those people have cell phone. They are allowed to use cell phone for communication. But at the same time, they are connected to the internet through the cell phone, and their cell phone might be connected to the computer that control the flight software and hardware. So what I want to say is we try to build strong system and we've protected them, but there will be some weaker system that we could not intended but exists to be connected to our strong system, and those are the points the hacker will be trying to attack. If we know how to control the access to those weak points, we will be having a much better system for the space system. And when we see the cybersecurity that is requiring the participation everywhere it's important to notice that there is a source of opportunity for students who enter the workforce to consider. Obviously students in engineering can focus their knowledge and expertise to provide technological solution to protect the system that we view. But we also have students in business who can focus their expertise to write business plan so that they can provide a pathway for the engineering advances to reach the market. We also have student in law who can focus their expertise in policy governing the internet, governing the cybersecurity practice. And we also have student in education who can focus their expertise to design how to teach cybersecurity practice, and student in every other discipline can focus their effort to implement security measure to protect the system that they are using in their field. So it's obvious that cybersecurity is everywhere and it implies job opportunity everywhere for everybody in every discipline of study. Thank you. >> Thank you, Trung, for those great comments. Great technology opportunities. But interesting, as well, is the theme that we're seeing across the entire symposium and in the virtual hallways that we're hearing conversations, and you pointed out some of them. Dr. Fleischer did, as well. And Bill, you mentioned it. It's not one thing. It's not just technology. It's different skills. And Amy, you mentioned that computer science is the hottest degree, but you have the hottest aerospace program in the world. I mean, so all this is kind of balancing. It's interdisciplinary. It's a structural change. Before we get into some of the, how they prepare the students, can you guys talk about some of the structural changes that are modern now in preparing in these opportunities, because societal impact is a, law potentially impact, it's how we educate. There's now cross-discipline skill sets. It's not just get the degree, see you out in the field. Bill, you want to start? >> Well, what's really fun about this job is that in the Air Force, I worked in the space and missile business, and what we saw was a heavy reliance on checklist format, security procedures, analog systems, and what we're seeing now in our world, both in the government and the commercial side, is a move to a digital environment, and the digital environment is a very quick and adaptive environment, and it's going to require a digital understanding. Matter of fact, the undersecretary of Air Force for acquisition recently referenced the need to understand the digital environment and how that's affecting acquisition. So as both Amy and Trung said, even business students are now in the cybersecurity business. And so again, what we're seeing is the change. Now, another phenomenon that we're seeing in the space world is there's just so much data. One of the ways that we addressed that in the past was to look at high-performance computing. There was a lot stricter control over how that worked. But now what we're seeing is adaptation of cloud, cloud technologies in space support, space data, command and control. And so what we see is a modern space engineer who has to understand digital, has to understand cloud, and has to understand the context of all those with a cyber environment. That's really changing the forefront of what is a space engineer, what is a digital engineer, and what is a future engineer, both commercial or government. So I think the opportunity for all of these things is really good, particularly for a polytechnic, Air Force Academy, and others that are focusing on a more widened experiential level of cloud and engineering and other capabilities. And I'll tell you the part that as the CIO I have to remind everybody, all this stuff works with the IT stuff. So you've got to understand how your IT infrastructures are tied and working together. As we noted earlier, one of the things is that these are all relays from point to point, and that architecture is part of your cybersecurity architecture. So again, every component has now become a cyber aware, cyber knowledgeable, and what we like to call as a cyber cognizant citizen where they have to understand the context. (speaking on mute) >> (indistinct) software Dr. Fleischer, talk about your perspective, 'cause you mentioned some of the things about computer science. I remember in the '80s when I got my computer science degree, they called us software engineers and then you became software developers. And then, so again, engineering is the theme. If you're engineering a system, there's now software involved, and there's also business engineering, business models. So talk about some of your comments, 'cause you mentioned computer science is hot. You got the aerospace. You got these multi-disciplines. You got definitely diversity, as well, brings more perspectives in, as well. Your thoughts on these structural interdisciplinary things? >> I think this is really key to making sure that students are prepared to work in the workforce is looking at the blurring between fields. No longer are you just a computer scientist. No longer are you just an aerospace engineer. You really have to have an expertise where you can work with people across disciplines. All of these fields are just working with each other in ways we haven't seen before. And Bill brought up data. You know, data science is something that's cross-cutting across all of our fields. So we want engineers that have the disciplinary expertise that they can go deep into these fields, but we want them to be able to communicate with each other and to be able to communicate across disciplines and to be able to work in teams that are across disciplines. You can no longer just work with other computer scientists or just work with other aerospace engineers. There's no part of engineering that is siloed anymore. So that's how we're changing. You have to be able to work across those disciplines. And as you, as Trung pointed out, ethics has to come into this. So you can no longer try to fully separate what we would traditionally have called the liberal arts and say, well, that's over there in general education. No, ethics is an important part of what we're doing and how we integrate that into our curriculum. So is communication. So is working on public policy and seeing where all these different aspects tie together to make the impact that we want to have in the world. So you no longer can work solo in these fields. >> That's great point. And Bill also mentioned the cloud. One thing about the cloud that's showed us is horizontal scalability has created a lot of value, and certainly data is now horizontal. Trung, you mentioned some of the things about cryptography for the kids out there, I mean, you can look at the pathway for career. You can do a lot of tech, but you don't have to go deep sometimes. You can as deep as you want, but there's so much more there. What technology do you see that's going to help students, in your opinion? >> Well, I'm a professor in computer science, so I like to talk a little bit about computer programming. Now we are working in complex projects. So most of the time we don't design a system from scratch. We build it from different components, and the components that we have, either we get it from vendors or sometimes we get it from the internet in the open source environment. It's fun to get the source code and then make it work to our own application. So now when we are looking at cryptology, when we talk about encryption, for example, we can easily get the source code from the internet. And the question, is it safe to use those source code? And my question is maybe not. So I always encourage my students to learn how to write source code the traditional way that I learned a long time ago before I allow them to use the open source environment. And one of the things that they have to be careful especially with encryption is the code that might be hidden in the source that they downloaded. Some of the source might be harmful. It might open up back gate for a hacker to get in later. We've heard about these back gates back then when Microsoft designed the operating system with the protection of encryption, and it is true that is existing. So while open source code is a wonderful place to develop complex system, but it's also a dangerous place that we have to be aware of. >> Great point. Before we get into the comments, one quick thing for each of you I'd like to get your comments on. There's been a big movement on growth mindset, which has been a great big believer in having a growth mindset and learning and all that good stuff. But now when you talk about some of these things we're mentioning about systems, there's a new trend around a systems mindset, because if everything's now a system, distributed systems now you have space and cybersecurity, you have to understand the consequences of changes. And you mention some of that, Trung, in changes in the source code. Could you guys share your quick opinions on the of systems thinking? Is that a mindset that people should be looking at? Because it used to be just one thing. Oh, you're a systems guy or gal. There you go. You're done. Now it seems to be in social media and data, everything seems to be systems. What's your take? Dr. Fleischer, we'll start with you. >> I'd say it's another way of looking at not being just so deep in your discipline. You have to understand what the impact of the decisions that you're making have on a much broader system. And so I think it's important for all of our students to get some exposure to that systems level thinking and looking at the greater impact of the decision that they're making. Now, the issue is where do you set the systems boundary, right? And you can set the systems boundary very close in and concentrate on an aspect of a design, or you can continually move that system boundary out and see where do you hit the intersections of engineering and science along with ethics and public policy and the greater society. And I think that's where some of the interesting work is going to be. And I think at least exposing students and letting them know that they're going to have to make some of these considerations as they move throughout their career is going to be vital as we move into the future. >> Bill, what's your thoughts? >> I absolutely agree with Amy. And I think there's a context here that reverse engineering and forensics analysis and forensics engineering are becoming more critical than ever. The ability to look at what you have designed in a system and then tear it apart and look at it for gaps and holes and problem sets. Or when you're given some software that's already been pre-developed, checking it to make sure it is really going to do what it says it's going to do. That forensics ability becomes more and more a skillset that also you need the verbal skills to explain what it is you're doing and what you found. So the communication side, the systems analysis side, the forensics analysis side, these are all things that are part of system approach that I think you could spend hours on and we still haven't really done a great job on it. So it's one of my fortes is really the whole analysis side of forensics and reverse engineering. >> Trung, real quick, systems thinking, your thoughts. >> Well, I'd like to share with you my experience when I worked in the space station program at NASA. We had two different approaches. One is a compound approach where we design it from the system general point of view where we put components together to be a complex system. But at the same time, we have the (indistinct) approach where we have an engineer who spent time and effort building individual component and they have to be expert in those tiny component that general component they deliver. And in the space station program, we bring together the (indistinct) engineer who designed everything in detail and the system manager who managed the system design from the top down, and we meet in the middle, and together we compromised a lot of differences and we delivered the space station that we are operating today. >> Great insight. And that's the whole teamwork collaboration that Dr. Fleischer was mentioning. Thanks so much for that insight. I wanted to get that out there because I know myself as a parent, I'm always trying to think about what's best for my kids and their friends as they grow up into the workforce. I know educators and leaders in industry would love to know some of the best practices around some of the structural changes. So thanks for that insight. But this topic's about students and helping them prepare. So we heard be multiple discipline, broaden your horizons, think like systems, top down, bottom up, work together as a team, and follow the data. So I got to ask you guys, there's a huge amount of job openings in cybersecurity. It's well-documented. And certainly with the intersection of space and cyber, it's only going to get bigger, right? You're going to see more and more demand for new types of jobs. How do we get high school and college students interested in security as a career? Dr. Fleischer, we'll start with you on this one. I would say really one of the best ways to get students interested in a career is to show them the impact that it's going to have. There's definitely always going to be students who are going to want to do the technology for the technology's sake, but that will limit you to a narrow set of students, and by showing the greater impact that these types of careers are going to have on the types of problems that you're going to be able to solve and the impact you're going to be able to have on the world around you, that's the word that we really need to get out. And a wide variety of students really respond to these messages. So I think it's really kind of reaching out at the elementary, the middle school level, and really kind of getting this idea that you can make a big difference, a big positive difference in the field with some of these careers, is going to be really critical. >> Real question to follow up. What do you think is the best entry point? You mentioned middle. I didn't hear elementary school. There's a lot of discussions around pipelining, and we're going to get into women in tech and underrepresented minorities later. But is it too early, or what's your feeling on this? >> My feeling is the earlier we can normalize it, the better. If you can normalize an interest in computers and technology and building in elementary school, that's absolutely critical. But the drop-off point that we're seeing is between what I would call late elementary and early middle school. And just kind of as an anecdote, I for years ran an outreach program for Girl Scouts in grades four and five and grade six, seven, and eight. And we had 100 slots in each program. And every year the program would sell out for girls in grades four and five, and every year we'd have spots remaining in grades six, seven, and eight. And that's literally where the drop-off is occurring between that late elementary and that middle school range. So that's the area that we need to target to make sure we keep those young women involved and interested as we move forward. >> Bill, how are we going to get these kids interested in security? You mentioned a few programs you got. >> Yeah. >> I mean, who wouldn't want to be a white hat hacker? I mean, that sounds exciting. >> So yeah, great questions. Let's start with some basic principles, though, is let me ask you a question, John. Name for me one white hat, good person hacker, the name, who works in the space industry and is an exemplar for students to look up to. >> You? >> Oh man, I'm feeling really... >> I'm only, I can't imagine a figure- >> (indistinct) the answer because the answer we normally get is the cricket sound. So we don't have individuals we've identified in those areas for them to look up to. >> I was going to be snarky and say most white hackers won't even use their real name, but... >> Right, so there's an aura around their anonymity here. So again, the real question is how do we get them engaged and keep them engaged? And that's what Amy was pointing out to exactly, the engagement and sticking with it. So one of the things that we're trying to do through our competition on the state level and other elements is providing connections. We call them ambassadors. These are people in the business who can contact the students that are in the game or in that challenge environment and let 'em interact and let 'em talk about what they do and what they're doing in life. But give them a challenging game format. A lot of computer-based training, capture the flag stuff is great, but if you can make it hands-on, if you can make it a learn by doing experiment, if you can make it personally involved and see the benefit as a result of doing that challenge and then talk to the people who do that on a daily basis, that's how you get them involved. The second part is part of what we're doing is we're involving partnership companies in the development of the teams. So this year's competition that we're running has 82 teams from across the state of California. Of those 82 teams at six students a team, middle school, high school, and many of those have company partners, and these are practitioners in cybersecurity who are working with those students to participate. It's that adult connectivity. It's that visualization. So at the competition this year, we have the founder of Defcon Red Flag is a participant to talk to the students. We have Vint Cerf, who is, of course, very well-known for something called the internet, to participate. It's really getting the students to understand who's in this, who can I look up to, and how do I stay engaged with them? >> There's definitely a celebrity aspect of it, I will agree. I mean, the influencer aspect here with knowledge is key. Can you talk about these ambassadors, and how far along are you on that program? First of all, the challenge stuff is, anything gamification-wise, we've seen that with hackathons, it just really works well. Creates bonding. People who create together can get sticky and get very high community aspect to it. Talk about this ambassador thing. What is that, industry, is that academic? >> Yeah, absolutely. >> What is this ambassador thing? >> Industry partners that we've identified, some of which, and I won't hit all of 'em, so I'm sure I'll short change this, but Palo Alto, Cisco, Splunk, many of the companies in California, and what we've done is identified schools to participate in the challenge that may not have a strong STEM program or have any cyber program. And the idea of the company is they look for their employees who are in those school districts to partner with the schools to help provide outreach. It could be as simple as a couple hours a week, or it's a team support captain or it's providing computers and other devices to use. And so again, it's really about a constant connectivity and trying to help where some schools may not have the staff or support units in an area to really provide them what they need for connectivity. What that does is it gives us an opportunity to not just focus on it once a year, but throughout the year. So for the competition, all the teams that are participating have been receiving training and educational opportunities in the gamification side since they signed up to participate. So there's a website, there's learning materials, there's materials provided by certain vendor companies like Wireshark and others. So it's a continuum of opportunity for the students. >> You know, I've seen, just randomly, just got a random thought. Robotics clubs are moving then closer into that middle school area, Dr. Fleischer, and in certainly in high schools, it's almost like a varsity sport. E-sports is another one. My son just called me. "I made the JV at the college team." It's big and serious, right? And it's fun. This is the aspect of fun. It's hands-on. This is part of the culture down there. Learn by doing. Is there, like, a group? Is it, like, a club? I mean, how do you guys organize these bottoms-up organically interest topics? >> So here in the college of engineering, when we talk about learn by doing, we have learned by doing both in the classroom and out of the classroom. And if we look at these types of out of the classroom activities, we have over 80 clubs working on all different aspects, and many of these are bottom-up. The students have decided what they want to work on and have organized themselves around that. And then they get the leadership opportunities. The more experienced students train the less experienced students. And it continues to build from year after year after year with them even doing aspects of strategic planning from year to year for some of these competitions. Yeah, it's an absolutely great experience. And we don't define for them how their learn by doing experiences should be. We want them to define it. And I think the really cool thing about that is they have the ownership and they have the interest and they can come up with new clubs year after year to see which direction they want to take it, and we will help support those clubs as old clubs fade out and new clubs come in. >> Trung, real quick, before we go on the next talk track, what do you recommend for middle school, high school, or even elementary? A little bit of coding, Minecraft? I mean, how do you get 'em hooked on the fun and the dopamine of technology and cybersecurity? What's your take on that? >> On this aspect, I'd like to share with you my experience as a junior high and high school student in Texas. The university of Texas in Austin organized a competition for every high school in Texas in every field from poetry to mathematics to science, computer engineering. But it's not about the University of Texas. The University of Texas is only serving as a center for the final competition. They divide the competition to district and then regional and then state. At each level, we have local university and colleges volunteering to host the competition and make it fun for the student to participate. And also they connected the students with private enterprises to raise fund for scholarship. So student who see the competition is a fun event for them, they get exposed to different university hosting the event so that they can see different option for them to consider college. They also get a promise that if they participate, they will be considered for scholarship when they attend university and college. So I think the combination of fun and competition and the scholarship aspect will be a good thing to entice the student to commit to the area of cybersecurity. >> Got the engagement, the aspiration, scholarship, and you mentioned a volunteer. I think one of the things I'll observe is you guys are kind of hitting this as community. I mean, the story of Steve Jobs and Woz building the Mac, they called Bill Hewlett up in Palo Alto. He was in the phone book. And they scoured some parts from him. That's community. This is kind of what you're getting at. So this is kind of the formula we're seeing. So the next question I really want to get into is the women in technology, STEM, underrepresented minorities, how do we get them on cybersecurity career path? Is there a best practices there? Bill, we'll start with you. >> Well, I think it's really interesting. First thing I want to add is, if I could, just a clarification. What's really cool, the competition that we have and we're running, it's run by students from Cal Poly. So Amy referenced the clubs and other activities. So many of the organizers and developers of the competition that we're running are the students, but not just from engineering. So we actually have theater and liberal arts majors and technology for liberal arts majors who are part of the competition, and we use their areas of expertise, set design and other things, visualization, virtualization. Those are all part of how we then teach and educate cyber in our gamification and other areas. So they're all involved and they're learning, as well. So we have our students teaching other students. So we're really excited about that. And I think that's part of what leads to a mentoring aspect of what we're providing where our students are mentoring the other students. And I think it's also something that's really important in the game. The first year we held the game, we had several all-girl teams, and it was really interesting because A, they didn't really know if they could compete. I mean, this is their reference point. We don't know if. They did better than anybody. I mean, they just, they knocked the ball out of the park. The second part, then, is building that confidence level that can, going back and telling their cohorts that, hey, it's not this obtuse thing you can't do. It's something real that you can compete and win. And so again, it's building that camaraderie, that spirit, that knowledge that they can succeed. And I think that goes a long way. And Amy's programs and the reach out and the reach out that Cal Poly does to schools to develop, I think that's what it really is going to take. It is going to take that village approach to really increase diversity and inclusivity for the community. >> Dr. Fleischer, I'd love to get your thoughts. You mentioned your outreach program and the drop-off, some of those data. You're deeply involved in this. You're passionate about it. What's your thoughts on this career path opportunity for STEM? >> Yeah, I think STEM is an incredible career path opportunity for so many people. There's so many interesting problems that we can solve, particularly in cyber and in space systems. And I think we have to meet the kids where they are and kind of show them what the exciting part is about it, right? But Bill was alluding to this when he was talking about trying to name somebody that you can point to. And I think having those visible people where you can see yourself in that is absolutely critical, and those mentors and that mentorship program. So we use a lot of our students going out into California middle schools and elementary schools. And you want to see somebody that's like you, somebody that came from your background and was able to do this. So a lot of times we have students from our National Society of Black Engineers or our Society of Hispanic Professional Engineers or our Society of Women Engineers, which we have over 1,000 members, 1,000 student members in our Society of Women Engineers who are doing these outreach programs. But like I also said, it's hitting them at the lower levels, too, and Girl Scouts is actually distinguishing themselves as one of the leading STEM advocates in the country. And like I said, they developed all these cybersecurity badges starting in kindergarten. There's a cybersecurity badge for kindergartener and first graders. And it goes all the way up through late high school. The same thing with space systems. And they did the space systems in partnership with NASA. They did the cybersecurity in partnership with Palo Alto Networks. And what you do is you want to build these skills that the girls are developing, and like Bill said, work in girl-led teams where they can do it, and if they're doing it from kindergarten on, it just becomes normal, and they never think, well, this is not for me. And they see the older girls who are doing it and they see a very clear path leading them into these careers. >> Yeah, it's interesting, you used the word normalization earlier. That's exactly what it is. It's life, you get life skills and a new kind of badge. Why wouldn't you learn how to be a white hat hacker or have some fun or learn some skills? >> Amy: Absolutely. >> Just in the grind of your fun day. Super exciting. Okay, Trung, your thoughts on this. I mean, you have a diverse, diversity brings perspective to the table in cybersecurity because you have to think like the other guy, the adversary. You got to be the white hat. You can't be a white hat unless you know how black hat thinks. So there's a lot of needs here for more points of view. How are we going to get people trained on this from underrepresented minorities and women? What's your thoughts? >> Well, as a member of the IEEE Professional Society of Electrical and Electronic Engineers, every year we participate in the engineering week. We deploy our members to local junior high school and high school to talk about our project to promote the study of engineering. But at the same time, we also participate in the science fair that the state of Texas is organizing. Our engineer will be mentoring students, number one, to help them with the project, but number two, to help us identify talent so that we can recruit them further into the field of STEM. One of the participation that we did was the competition of the, what they call Future City, where students will be building a city on a computer simulation. And in recent year, we promote the theme of smart city where city will be connected the individual houses and together into the internet. And we want to bring awareness of cybersecurity into that competition. So we deploy engineer to supervise the people, the students who participate in the competition. We bring awareness not in the technical detail level, but in what we've call the compound level so student will be able to know what required to provide cybersecurity for the smart city that they are building. And at the same time, we were able to identify talent, especially talent in the minority and in the woman, so that we can recruit them more actively. And we also raise money for scholarship. We believe that scholarship is the best way to entice student to continue education at the college level. So with scholarship, it's very easy to recruit them to the field and then push them to go further into the cybersecurity area. >> Yeah, I mean, I see a lot of the parents like, oh, my kid's going to go join the soccer team, we get private lessons, and maybe they'll get a scholarship someday. Well, they only do half scholarships. Anyway. I mean, if they spent that time doing these other things, it's just, again, this is a new life skill, like the Girl Scouts. And this is where I want to get into this whole silo breaking down, because Amy, you brought this up, and Bill, you were talking about it, as well. You got multiple stakeholders here with this event. You've got public, you've got private, and you've got educators. It's the intersection of all of them. It's, again, if those silos break down, the confluence of those three stakeholders have to work together. So let's talk about that. Educators. You guys are educating young minds. You're interfacing with private institutions and now the public. What about educators? What can they do to make cyber better? 'Cause there's no real manual. I mean, it's not like this court is a body of work of how to educate cybersecurity. Maybe it's more recent. There's cutting edge best practices. But still, it's an evolving playbook. What's your thoughts for educators? Bill, we'll start with you. >> Well, I'm going to turn to Amy and let her go first. >> Let you go. >> That's fine. >> I would say as educators, it's really important for us to stay on top of how the field is evolving, right? So what we want to do is we want to promote these tight connections between educators and our faculty and applied research in industry and with industry partnerships. And I think that's how we're going to make sure that we're educating students in the best way. And you're talking about that inner, that confluence of the three different areas. And I think you have to keep those communication lines open to make sure that the information on where the field is going and what we need to concentrate on is flowing down into our educational process. And that works in both ways, that we can talk as educators and we can be telling industry what we're working on and what types of skills our students have and working with them to get the opportunities for our students to work in industry and develop those skills along the way, as well. And I think it's just all part of this really looking at what's going to be happening and how do we get people talking to each other? And the same thing with looking at public policy and bringing that into our education and into these real hands-on experiences. And that's how you really cement this type of knowledge with students, not by talking to them and not by showing them, but letting them do it. It's this learn by doing and building the resiliency that it takes when you learn by doing. And sometimes you learn by failing, but you just pick up and you keep going. And these are important skills that you develop along the way. >> You mentioned sharing, too. That's the key. Collaborating and sharing knowledge. It's an open world and everyone's collaborating. Bill, private-public partnerships. I mean, there's a real, private companies, you mentioned Palo Alto Networks and others. There's a real intersection there. They're motivated. They could, there's scholarship opportunities. Trung points to that. What is the public-private educator view there? How do companies get involved and what's the benefit for them? >> Well, that's what a lot of the universities are doing is to bring in as part of either their cyber centers or institutes people who are really focused on developing and furthering those public-private partnerships. That's really what my role is in all these things is to take us to a different level in those areas, not to take away from the academic side, but to add additional opportunities for both sides. Remember, in a public-private partnership, all entities have to have some gain in the process. Now, what I think is really interesting is the timing on particularly this subject, space and cybersecurity. This has been an absolute banner year for space. The standup of Space Force, the launch of commercial partnership, you know, commercial platforms delivering astronauts to the space station, recovering them, and bringing them back. The ability of a commercial satellite platform to be launched. Commercial platforms that not only launch but return back to where they're launched from. These are things that are stirring the hearts of the American citizens, the kids, again, they're getting interested. They're seeing this and getting enthused. So we have to seize upon that and we have to find a way to connect that. Public-private partnerships is the answer for that. It's not one segment that can handle it all. It's all of them combined together. If you look at space, space is going to be about commercial. It's going to be about civil. Moving from one side of the Earth to the other via space. And it's about government. And what's really cool for us, all those things are in our backyard. That's where that public-private comes together. The government's involved. The private sector's involved. The educators are involved. And we're all looking at the same things and trying to figure out, like this forum, what works best to go to the future. >> You know, if people are bored and they want to look for an exciting challenge, you couldn't have laid it out any clearer. It's the most exciting discipline. It's everything. I mean, we just talk about space. GPS is, everything we do is involved, has to do with satellites. (laughs) >> I have to tell you a story on that right? We have a very unique GPS story right in our backyard. So our sheriff is the son of the father of GPS for the Air Force. So you can't get better than that when it comes to being connected to all those platforms. So we really want to say, you know, this is so exciting for all of us because it gives everybody a job for a long time. >> You know, the kids that think TikTok's exciting, wait till they see what's going on here with you guys, this program. Trung, final word on this from the public side. You're at the Air Force. You're doing research. Are you guys opening it up? Are you integrating into the private and educational sectors? How do you see that formula playing out? And what's the best practice for students and preparing them? >> I think it's the same in every university in the engineering program will require our students to do the final project before graduation. And in this kind of project, we send them out to work in the private industry, the private company that sponsor them. They get the benefit of having an intern working for them and they get the benefit of reviewing the students as the prospective employee in the future. So it's good for the student to gain practical experience working in this program. Sometimes we call that a co-op program. Sometimes we call that a capstone program. And the company will accept the student on a trial basis, giving them some assignment and then pay them a little bit of money. So it's good for the student to earn some extra money, to have some experience that they can put on their resume when they apply for the final, for the job. So the collaboration between university and private sector is really important. When I join a faculty normally there already exist that connection. It came from normally, again, from the dean of engineering, who would wine and dine with companies, build up relationship, and sign up agreement. But it's us professor who have to do the (indistinct) approach to do a good performance so that we can build up credibility to continue the relationship with those company and the student that we selected to send to those company. We have to make sure that they will represent the university well, they will do a good job, and they will make a good impression. >> Thank you very much for a great insight, Trung, Bill, Amy. Amazing topic. I'd like to end this session with each of you to make a statement on the importance of cybersecurity to space. We'll go Trung, Bill, and Amy. Trung, the importance of cybersecurity to space, brief statement. >> The importance of cybersecurity, we know that it's affecting every component that we are using and we are connecting to, and those component, normally we use them for personal purpose, but when we enter the workforce, sometimes we connect them to the important system that the government or the company are investing to be put into space. So it's really important to practice cybersecurity, and a lot of time, it's very easy to know the concept. We have to be careful. But in reality, we tend to forget to to practice it the way we forget how to drive a car safely. And with driving a car, we have a program called defensive driving that requires us to go through training every two or three years so that we can get discount. Every organization we are providing the annual cybersecurity practice not to tell people about the technology, but to remind them about the danger of not practicing cybersecurity and it's a requirement for every one of us. >> Bill, the importance of cybersecurity to space. >> It's not just about young people. It's about all of us. As we grow and we change, as I referenced it, we're changing from an analog world to a digital world. Those of us who have been in the business and have hair that looks like mine, we need to be just as cognizant about cybersecurity practice as the young people. We need to understand how it affects our lives, and particularly in space, because we're going to be talking about people, moving people to space, moving payloads, data transfer, all of those things. And so there's a whole workforce that needs to be retrained or upskilled in cyber that's out there. So the opportunity is ever expansive for all of us. >> Amy, the importance of cybersecurity in space. >> I mean the emphasis of cybersecurity is space just simply can't be over emphasized. There are so many aspects that are going to have to be considered as systems get ever more complex. And as we pointed out, we're putting people's lives at stake here. This is incredibly, incredibly complicated and incredibly impactful, and actually really exciting, the opportunities that are here for students and the workforce of the future to really make an enormous impact on the world around us. And I hope we're able to get that message out to students and to children today, that these are really interesting fields that you need to consider. >> Thank you very much. I'm John Furrier with theCUBE, and the importance of cybersecurity and space is the future of the world's all going to happen in and around space with technology, people, and society. Thank you to Cal Poly, and thank you for watching the Cybersecurity and Space Symposium 2020. (bright music)

(upbeat instrumental music) >> From our studios in the heart of Silicon Valley, Palo Alto, California. This is a CUBE Conversation. >> Hey, welcome back everybody. Jeff Frick here with theCUBE. We're in our Palo Alto studios for a CUBE Conversation. It's just a couple of days until RSA kicks off a huge security conference. I think the biggest security conference in the industry. And we've got a security expert here in the house and we're excited to have him stop by. It's Manish Gupta, the Founder and CEO of ShipLeft. Manish, great to see you. >> Yeah, great to see you too, thank you. >> Welcome. So you must be really busy getting everything buttoned up for next week. >> Oh yeah, absolutely ready to go. >> Alright so for the people that aren't familiar with ShiftLeft, give us kind of the basic overview. >> Yeah of course. So ShiftLeft about a two and a half year old company. We started with the problem of you know, the software's driving innovation all around us, right? I mean, we see it in autonomous cars, IoTs, increasingly SwaaS software in the cloud. And all of the software needs to be figured out, how are we going to protect it. And so it's a big problem, and we've been working on it for about two and a half years now. Raised our Series A and most recently in the last two weeks, we announced our Series B of 20 Million. >> Congratulations. >> Amazing team, yeah! >> So, you've been in the security space for a long time. >> Correct. >> And RSA's a giant conference. I don't know what the numbers will be this year. I'm sure it'll be north of 40 thousand people. Moscone North, South and West will be full. Every hotel is full. But it kind of begs a question, like, haven't we got some of the security thing figured out? It's just a never-ending kind of startup opportunities as there's new ways to approach this kind of fundamental problem which is, how do we keep the bad guys out. How do we keep them from doing bad things while the surface area expands exponentially. The attack surface expands. And we hear every day that people are getting breached and breached and breached. So the whole ecosystem, and kind of approach has completely changed over the time that you've been involved in this business. >> Indeed, as you said, I've been in cybersecurity for a long time. I like to say the last 15 years, first part of my career, I was focused on detecting viruses. Then it became worms. Then most recently at FireEye, we were detecting advanced malware nation-state attacks like APT1s and APT3s. But it was then that sort of, it dawned on me that, look about 80% of security money gets spent on detecting bad stuff, right? And that's reactive. Essentially what that means is we are letting the bad guy shoot first and then we are trying to figure out, okay what are we going to do now. >> We're waiting like 150 days right, down from 230 days, before we even-- >> Exactly. >> know that he's shootin' at us. >> That's right. Now couple that with as you said, the attack surface is ever increasing, right. Because we're using software in every which way which means all of this stuff needs to be protected. And so that's why we were wanted to start with a fresh perspective which is to say, let's not worry about attacks. Because that is not in our control. That's in the bad guys' control. What can we control? Which is our software. And so, that is why what we do at ShiftLeft is to understand the software very quickly, extract its attack surface in minutes, and then allow you to fix whatever you want to, whatever you can during the time frame you have available. And here comes the next innovation which is, if you don't fix anything, which is almost always the case, we will protect the application in production. Now the key is, we protect the application in production against its vulnerabilities. So we never ever react to threats. We don't care. >> So you have like a wrapper around the known vulnerabilities within the code. Is that a good desciption? >> Yes, you could absolutely, that's a good way of thinking about it is you know, let's say a million lines of code. We find 10 vulnerabilities in it. So it's only in 10 specific instances of the application. Now we also know what vulnerabilities exist on line 100 and line 200 and so on. And with that knowledge, we can very precisely protect each vulnerability. >> It's a really interesting approach. You know, one of the things I find fascinating with security is it's kind of like insurance. >> Mm hmm. >> In theory, you could spend 110% of all your revenue budget >> Correct. >> on security, but you can't so you have to make trade off decisions. You have to make business value decisions and you have to prioritize. So this is a really different approach, that you're offering an option either to fix the known, and/or just to protect the known, so that there's some variability in the kind of the degree of investment that the customer wants to spend. >> You summed it up well, Jeff. I think the fundamental challenge with security has been that. Is that ya know, 15 years ago we've asked our customers to buy antivirus. Then we asked them to buy intrusion detection. Then we asked them to buy nation-state or malware protection. Now we're asking them to buy machine learning based mechanisms to detect more threats, right? And so the funnel is like this, right, but it never goes down to zero. And so tomorrow some other approach will come up to detect the 0.1% of the malware. And guess what? The sys-os really don't have a choice right? Because they have to protect their organization. So they have to buy that tool also. Now in this entire process, you never get better, right? Notice that you never get better. All you're doing is just reacting. And because a virus from 15 years ago theoretically could still come and attack you, you can't throw away that too either. Right, and so that is precisely why I'm so passionate about work we're doing at ShiftLeft is we will protect you from, in sort of in bad continuous improvement for the first time in security. Find the vulnerabilities, fix them. But if you can't fix them, we will protect you. >> Now, what about another kind of big shift in the way software is delivered, is everything is an API to someone else's software. And oftentimes there's many many components that are being pulled in from many many places that contribute to, but aren't software that I control personally. >> Correct. >> So how do you guys deal with those types of challenges? >> Great question, great question. And you know, the popular saying is we are becoming an API economy. >> Right, right. >> And what we exchange on our APIs is increasingly a lot of data. And you're right. If you think about historical approaches, we will now have to break open the API on a network, to find out what it contains. And for various reasons, super hard to do, lots of operational efficiencies, inefficiencies, excuse me. And this is again where the ShiftLeft approach is rather unique. See because we go down to the very foundation. It's hard work right, but we go down to the very foundation, what is the source code of the API. So we will understand, okay, well this is what you should be putting in the API, right? But then I see that a variable called Personally Identifiable Information is being put into that API. I can now tell you before this becomes a problem that'll embarrass you in the newspapers. I, we will tell you, hey look, you are writing PII to a third party API without encryption, right. So you get to fix the problem at the very root where it starts. >> So but, can you wrap the known vulnerability in a partner piece of software? >> Absolutely we can. >> As it interfaces with my software? >> Correct. So, there are two aspects to it right. The first is what are you putting into that API, right, that is completely in your control. >> Right. >> Right, we don't really need to understand the API for that matter. So that is one particular use case we can absolutely protect you there, right. The second is when the API, when integrated into your application, makes your application vulnerable. Right, so I'll give you an example. This happened to one our our customers. This is a 3,500 person technical, technology company based here in Santa Clara. They were using a third party API. Very popular one. That third party API in turn was using a Jackson databind library, just an open source library. Now, as a company when we decide to use that API, we don't really worry about, we don't have visibility into like what all is it hurting. >> Downstream. >> Exactly. >> And how many feeds are in that one particular one. >> That's right. And so this is the supply chain of software. Right? Multiple components are now being brought together very quickly to create the functionality that you want to deliver to your users, to your customers. But in this pace of execution, we need tools like ShiftLeft to tell us hey what are we hurting. And whatever we are hurting, how is that impacting the security of our application. >> Right, right. Pretty interesting stuff, you got another component of something that's really important today that wasn't necessarily when you started this adventure. And that's the open source play. >> Yes. >> So as I understand it, you guys started really from more of an open source play and then ShiftLeft grew out of kind of commercializing what was that open source project. I wonder if can explain a little bit more. >> Yeah, I would love to. So the foundation of what we do is a technology called Core Property Graph. So, this is an invention of our chief scientist, Dr. Fabian Yamaguchi, one of the foremost authorities in the world, in the area of understanding code, right. And so as part of his PhD thesis, he came up with this technology and decided to open source a tool called Joern. >> Joern. J-O-E-R-N. >> That's right. >> Not easy to figure out, Joern yes. (laughing) >> Exactly. And it's actually his friend's name so that's how he named it. >> Ah, is that right? >> So he open sourced it and several organizations around the world have since used it to find very hard to find vulnerabilities. Right so as an example, this is a IEEE paper where this technology was used by Fabian to find 18 zero-day vulnerabilities in the main line Linux code, right. So arguably one of the most complex pieces of code on the planet, 15 million lines of code. Arguably one of the most analyzed pieces of code on the planet. And as recently as 2015, he finds 18 zero-days. And no false positives. Every single vulnerabilty has been acknowledged and fixed by the Linux community. That's the power. And so we use that as the foundation. So you write that as open source but since then we've done a lot of incremental work on enhancing it to make it enterprise ready. And that is a product we offer. as call this Ocular. Where we give you, think about it as my best analogy, is just like Google Maps for your source code. >> Yeah, I think it's a good analogy and he goes through that in one of his videos kind of explaining the mapping. >> Correct. >> Of different layers of kind of visibility into how you should look at software code. >> Indeed. >> Yeah alright, well before we let ya go, you got some exciting things happening next week beyond just the regular activities at RSA. You guys have been invited to participate in a special activity. I wonder if you can share a little bit and give a plug and maybe we can send some fans up to, I dunno if it's going to be audience participation in the judging. >> Yes. >> Go ahead and let us know what you're doing. >> Thank you for giving me that opportunity. Yeah super, super excited about, so we've been selected as one of the top 10 finalists for the RSA Innovation Sandbox. As you mentioned in your opening, RSA is the biggest security trade show in the world. And so now this has become the most seminal way of highlighting innovative work being done in the security industry. So I get three minutes to pitch ShiftLeft in front of an audience of about 1,500 to 2,000 people. Really looking forward to that. >> Well I dunno if you can speed this up to only three minutes (laughing) but I'm sure you'll be able to nail it. >> I will try. >> Alright well Manish, thanks for taking a few minutes of your day and I'm sure we'll see you in San Francisco next week. >> Thank you very much, thank you. >> Alright, It's Manish, I'm Jeff. You're watching theCUBE. We're having a CUBE Conversation in our Palo Alto studios. Thanks for watchin' and we'll see ya next time. (upbeat music)

(upbeat music) >> Live from Barcelona Spain, it's theCUBE. Covering Cisco Live! Europe. Brought to you by Cisco and its ecosystem partners. >> Hi everyone welcome back to the theCUBE's live coverage here in Barcelona, Spain for Cisco Live! Europe 2019. I'm John Furrier and my co-host Stu Miniman, Dave Vellante is out there as well co-hosting this week. Our next guest is John Apostolopoulos who's the VP and CTO for the Enterprise Networking Business, Unit Lab Director for the Innovation Labs. Here to talk with us about AI and some great innovations. John thanks for coming on theCUBE, great to see you. >> Thank you for inviting me, pleasure to be here. >> So, Cisco has some big announcements, the messages coming together certainly the bridge for the future, bridge for tomorrow, whatever the phrase is. You know, kind of looking at that new world connecting on premise, cloud, ACI anywhere, hyper-flex anywhere, lot of complexity, being mis-tracked the way with software, separate from the V-Comp from the hardware, lot of scale in the cloud and IoT and all around the edge. So software is a big part of this. >> Oh yes. >> So can't help but think, okay complexity, scale, you see Facebook using machine learning. Machine learning and AI operations now, a real conversation for Cisco. >> Yeah. >> Talk about what that is, how are you guys looking at AI, and machine learning in particular, it's been around for a while. What's your thoughts on Cisco's position and opportunity? >> Sure, yeah. Cisco's been investing or using AI for many, many years. What happens to Cisco, like most companies, we haven't really talked about the machine learning as a term because machine learning is a tool used to solve different problems. So you talk about, what are the customer problems we have? And then we saw, no matter how good our solution is, but we haven't really talked about the details about the how but, we've using at Cisco, like myself from past careers and so forth for many many years some machine learning. Security has been using it for multiple decades for example. >> And where's the use case for machine learnering, because it's one of things where there's different versions and flavors of machine learning. Machine learning we know powers AI and data feeds machine learning, so do you have all these dependencies and all these things going on, how do you...how should someone think about sorting through machine learning? >> Well machine learner itself that term is a very broad term, it's almost as big as computer science, right? So that's where a lot of the confusion comes in. But what happens is you can look up what types of problems we want to solve, and when you try to look at what types of problems we want to solve, some of them...for example some problems you can exploit the fact that the laws of physics that apply and if the laws of physics apply, you should use those laws. We can either figure out that if we drop this, this will fall at some speed by measuring it and using a machine learning or we have gravitational force and friction with the air and re-account for that and figure it out. So the many ways to solve these problems and we want to choose the best method for solving each one of them. >> And when the people think about Cisco, the first reaction isn't "Oh machine learning... innovator." What are you guys using machine learning for? Where has it been successful? What are you investing in? Where's the innovation? >> Sure sure, so there's a lot of problems here that come into play. If you look at...if you look at a customer problems, one example is all the digital disruption. We have on the order of a million devices, new devices coming on to the network every hour throughout the world. Now, what are those devices? How should you treat them? With machine learning we're able to identify what the devices are and then figure out what the network caches should be. For instance when IoT device you want to protect it, protect it from others. Another big topic is operations. As you know people spend, I think it was The Gardner identified that people spend about sixty-billion dollars per year on operations costs, why is it so much? Because most of the operations are manual, about 95% manual, which also means that these changes are slow and error-prone. What we do there is we basically use machine learning to do intelligent automation and we get a whole bunch of insights about what's happening and use that to drive intelligent automation. You may have heard about Assurance, which was announced at Cisco Live, one year ago at Barcelona and both in the campus with DNA Center we announced Cisco DNA Center Assurance and the data center went out, network and network analytic engine. And what both of these do is they look at what's happened to the network, they apply machine learning to identify patterns and from those patterns, identify, is there a problem, where's the problem? How can we...what's the root cause and then how can we solve that problem quickly? >> John, can you help us connect where this fits in a multi-cloud environment? Because what we've seen the past couple of years is when we talk about managing the network, a lot of what I might be in charge of managing, is really outside of my purview and therefore I could imagine something like ML is going to be critically important because I'm not going to be touching it but therefore I still need to have data about it and a lot of that needs to happen. >> Yeah, well one of the places ML helps with multi-cloud is the fact you need to figure out which...where to send your packets, and this comes with SD-WAN. So with SD-WAN we often have multiple paths available to us and let's say with the move to Office365, people are using the SaaS service and they want to have very good interactivity. One of the things we realized is that by carefully selecting which path we can use, at the branch and the campus too, we could get a 40% reduction in the latency. So that's a way we choose which colo or which region or which side of Office365 to send the packets to, to dramatically reduce latency. >> What's the role of data? Because when you think about it, you know, moving a packet from point A to point B, that's networking. Storage acts differently 'cause you store data data's got to come back out and be discovered. Now if you have this horizontal scalability for cloud, edge, core coming into the middle, get of the data 'cause machine learning needs the data, good data, not dirty data you need clean data. How do you see that evolving, how should customers then be thinking about preparing for either low-hanging use-cases. Just what's your thoughts and reaction to that? >> Yeah well the example you gave is a very interesting example. You described how you need to get data from one point to another, for instance, for my device to a data center with applications over the cloud. And you also mentioned how the many things between. What we care about, not necessarily the application data, we care about... You know we want to have the best network performance so your applications are working as well as possible. In that case we want to have an understanding of what's happening across a path so we want to pull to telemetry in all kinds of contexts to be able to understand, is there problem, where's the problem, what is it, and how to solve it. And that's what Assurance does. We pull this data from the access points the switches, from the routers, we pour, pull in all kinds of contextual information to get a rich understanding of the situation, and try to identify if there's a problem or not, and then how to solve it. >> Its the classic behavioral, contextual, paradigm of data but now you guys are looking at it from a network perspective and as the patterns changed the applications centric, programmability of the network, the traffic patterns are changing. Hence the announcements here but intent-based networking and hyper-flexed anywhere. This is now a new dynamic. Talk about the impact of that from an AI perspective. How are you guys getting out front on that? It's not just North, South, East, West, it's pretty much everywhere. The patterns are, could be application specific at any given point, on a certain segment of a network, I mean it's complex. >> Yeah, its complex. One of the really nice things about intent-based network and those, it fits in really nicely and that was by design, 'cause what happens with intent-based networking, as you know, a user expresses some intent if it's something they want to do. I want to securely onboard the SIoT device, and then it gets activated in the network, and then we use Assurance to see if it's doing the right thing. But what happens is that Assurance part, that's basically gathering visibility and insight in terms of what's happening. That's using machine learning to understand what's happening in the network across all these different parts that you mentioned. And then, what happens is we take those insights and then we make intelligent actions and that's part of the activation. So this...with intent based network in this feedback loop that we have directly ties with using the data for getting insights and then for activation, for intelligent actions. >> John, always want to get the update on the innovation lab, is there anything particular here at the show or, what's new that you can share? >> So we're looking at extending IBN to the cloud, to multi-cloud, to multiple devices so there's a lot of really fascinating work happening there. I believe you're going to be talking to one of my colleagues later, too, T.K. He's, I think, hopefully going to talk about some of the machine learning that's been done and that's already prioritized as you know in encrypted thread analytics. That's an example of where we use machine learning to identify if there's malware in encrypted traffic. Which is really a fascinating problem. >> That's a hard problem to solve. I'm looking forward to that conversation. >> So some members of Cisco, Dave McGrew, in particular, Cisco Fellow, started working on that problem four and a half years ago. Because of his work with other colleagues, he was able and they were able to come up with a solution. So it was a very complicated problem as you saw but through the use of machine learning and many years of investment, plus the fact that Cisco's access to Talos which has, they know the threats throughout the world. They're a list of data in terms of all kinds of threats that's massive. That's pretty powerful. >> The volume, that's where machine learning shines. I mean you see the amount of volume of data coming in, that's where it could do some heavy lifting. >> Exactly, that's one of Cisco's strengths. The fact that we have this massive view on all the threats throughout the world and we can bring it to bear. >> Network security foundation only just creates so much value for apps. Final question for you, for the folks watching, what's in you opinion the most important story here at Cicso Live Barcelona, that people should be paying attention to? >> I think how we are trying to extend across all these different domains and make it like one network for our customers. This is still a journey and it's going to take time but with intent based networking we can do that. We're going across campus, WAN, data center to multi-cloud. >> How hard is cross domain, just put it in perspective. Cross domains reversal and having visibility into these, from a latency, from a physics standpoint, how hard is it? >> It's quite hard, there's all kinds of technical challenges but there's even other sorts of challenges. This is WiFi, right? IEEE 802.11 defines the QoS standard for wireless and that's completely different than how the internet group ITEF defined it for wired. So even between wireless and wired, there's a lot of work that has to be done and Cisco's leading that effort. >> And having all that data. Great to have you on John, thanks for spending the time and demystifying machine learning and looking forward to this encrypted understanding with machine learning, that's a hard problem, looking forward to digging into that. Again, truly, the breakthroughs are happening with machine learning and adding values with application centric world. It's all about the data, it's theCUBE bringing you the data from Barcelona, I'm John with Stu Mini, stay with us for more coverage after this short break. (upbeat music)

>> Live from Seattle, Washington, it's the Cube, covering KubeCon andCloudNativeCon North America 2018. Brought to you buy Red Hat, the CloudNative computing foundation and it's ecosystem partners. (background crowd chatter) >> Okay welcome back everyone, live here in Seattle forKubeCon and CloudNativeCon. This is the Cube's coverage, I'm John Furrier with Stu Miniman. We've got two great guests, Chris Wright CTO of Red Hat, Scott Sneddon who's the senior director ofcloud at Juniper Networks, breaking down, windingdown day one of three days of coverage here. Rise of kubernetes, rise of cloudnatives, certainly impacting IT,open source communities, and developers. Guys, thanks for coming on the Cube. Appreciate it. It's good to see you. >> Yeah, good to see you. >> Welcome to the Cube. Okay, so, talk aboutthe relationship between Red Hat and Juniper. Why we're here, what are we talking about? >> Well, we're here to talkabout a combined solution. So, Red Hat's bringingkind of the software platform infrastructure piece and Juniper's bringinga networking component that ties it together.>> Yeah. >> So, we do have a fairly, well, in tech terms arelatively long history of working together. We've had a partnership for a little more than two years on sometelco Cloud initiatives around OpenStack, using the right OpenStackplatform with Contrail Juniper's contrail solutionas an SDN layer for these telco Cloud deployments. And have had a lot of successwith that partnership. A lot of large and smallto medium telco's around the world have deployed that. Earlier this year at theOpenStack summit in Vancouver, we announced an expandedpartnership to start to address some enterprise use cases. And, you know, naturallyopen shift is the lead technology that we wanted to tie in with around enterpriseadoption of cloud and some alternatives to someof the legacy platforms that are out there. >> And we were talkingearlier in the Cube here, we always get kind ofthe feel of the show, kubernetes maturing? But it kind of two worlds colliding and working together. A systems kind of view,almost like operating systems. The network systems, allkind of systems thinking. And then just apps. Okay, the old app thing. So these old legacy worldthat we all lived in kind of happening in really dynamic ways with the apps aren't thinkingabout what's below it. This is really kind of whereyou guys have a tailwind with Juniper.>> Yeah. Because you still gotto make things dynamic, you still got latency, onpremises not going away. You got IOT, so networkingplays a really big thing as software starts figuringthings out as kubernetes. Let's talk about that. Where is that value? How's it expanding? Cause clearly you stillneed to move packets from A to B.>> Yeah. Be more efficient with it. Apps going to have policy. >> The, well, I mean you've still got to, the network is always been the foundation of technology or at least for the last 20 plus years. And as cloud has been adopted, really we've seen network scale drive in different ways. The mega scalers thathave built infrastructure that we've been enabling for quite a while and have been working withthose customers as well. We've been developing a lot of simplified architecture just forthe physical plumbing to connect these things together. But what we've seen andis more and more important is, you know, it's all about the app, the app is the thing that'sgoing to consume these things. And the app developerdoesn't necessarily want to worry about IP addresses and port numbers and firewall rules and things like that, so how could we justmore simply extract that? And so, you know, we'vebeen developing automation and aimed at the networkfor quite a while, but I think more andmore it's becoming more important that theapplication can just consume that without having to directthe automation at the app. And so, you know, groupslike CloudNative foundation and a lot of the workwith kubernetes are on network policy, let's us use CloudNativeprivatives and then we can translate into the network primitives that we need to deploy to move packets, you know, IP addresses and subnets. >> And Chris, talk aboutthe multi cloud dynamic here because again, the dayof things are moving around the standardizationaround those core value propositions, youmentioned about networking and software networks, all kinds of software, you know, venations under the covers. I'm a customer, I havemultiple clouds now. This is going to be a core requirement. So you got to have a a clean integration between it. >> There's really two things. If you look at a modern application, you got your traditionalmonolithic application and as you tease itapart and into components and services, there's only one thingthat reconnects them and that's the network and so insuring that that's as easy to use as an applicationdevelopers focus is around the app and not aroundnetwork engineering is fundamental to a single cluster. And then if you have multiple clusters and you're trying to take advantage of different specialtiesin different clouds or geo replication or things like this that also require thenetwork to reconstitute those applications across thedifferent multiple clouds. If you expect your applicationengineers to become experts in networking, you're just sort ofsetting everybody up with misset expectations. >> It slows things down,requires all these other tasks you got to do. I mean it's like a rock fetch. You don't want to do it. Okay, stack a bunch of rocks, move them from there to there. I mean, this is whatthe holy grail of this infrastructure's code really is. >> Yeah.>> Yeah. I mean, that's the goal. >> Help connect the dots for us. When you look at multicloud networking obviously is a very critical component, what're your customers looking for? How does this solution goto market for your company? >> Absolute ease ofuse is top of the list. So, it can't be overly complicated. Because we're alreadybuilding complex systems, these are big distributive systems and you're adding multipleclusters and trying to connect them together. So ease of use is important. And then something that'sdynamic and reflects the current application requirements, I think is also really important. So that you don't over utilize resources in a cloud to maintainsort of a static connection that isn't actually needed at that moment. I'm sure you probably havea different perspective. >> Yeah, I mean, this isthe whole concept of SDN and network virtualization, a lot of the buzzwordsthat have been around for a few years now, is the ability to deliveron demand network services that are turned on whenthe application asks for it and are turned off when the application's done with it. We can create dynamic connectionsas applications scale. And then with a lot of thenewer things we've been doing around contrailand with Red Hat are the ability to extend thoseapplications environments with networking andsecurity into various cloud platforms. So, you know, if it's runningon top of an openstack environment or in a public cloud or, some other bare metal infrastructure, we're going to make surethat the network and security primitives are inplace when the application needs it and then get deepervisioned or pulled out when they go away. >> Being at a show like this, I don't think we need to talktoo much about open source, because that's reallycore and fundamental, but what we're doing here, but I guess, how doesthat play into customers? We've been watching the slow change in the networking world, you know, I'm a networking guy by background, used to measure changesin networks in decades and now it feels like we'removing a tiny bit faster, >> Little bit. >> What're we seeing is--? >> Well, I mean the historyof openness in networking was the ITF>> Standards. >> and IEEE and standards bodies, right? How do we interact? We're going to have ourlittle private playground and then we'll makesure to protocol layer, we can interact with each otherand we call that openness. But the new openness is open source and transparency into the platform and the ability tocontribute and participate. And so Juniper shifted a lot of our focus, I mean we still haveour own silicone and the operating system we built on our routers and switches, but we'vealso taken the contrail platform, open sourced it a few years ago, it's now called thetungsten fabric project under the Linux foundation. And we're activeparticipants in a community. And our customers really demand that. The telco's are drivingtowards an open source model, more and more enterpriseswant to be able to consume open source software with support, which is where we come in, but also be able to have an understanding of what's going on under the covers to participate if that's a possibility. But really drivinginteroperability through a different way then justa protocol interaction and a standards body. >> I can see how kubernetescan be a great fit for you guys at Juniper, clearly out of the boxyou have this kind of inter cloud, inter networking, paradigm that you're used to, right? How does the relationshipof Red Hat take it to the next level? What specifically areyou guys partnering on, where's that, what'sthat impact on customers? Can you just give a quick explanation, take a minute to explainthe Juniper Red Hat-- >> Well a lot of itcomes down to usability and ease of use, right? I mean what Red Hat's done with open shift is developed a platformleveraging kubernetes heavily, to make kubernetes easierto use with the great support model and a lot of tooling built on top of that to make thatmore easily deployable, more easily developersto develop on top of. What we're doing withcontrail is providing a supported version ofour open source project and then by tying thesethings together with some installation tools and packaging and most importantly a support model, that let's a customer have the proverbial single throat to choke. >> Have you ever hadcustomers that can run beautifully on your platform? >> Yeah yeah, and theinstallation process is seamless, it's a nob that installtime to consume contrail or some other networking stack and they can call Red Hat for support and they'll escalate toJuniper when appropriate and vice versa. And we've got all those things in place. >> I think one of the things that we have like shared vision on is, the ease of use andthen if you think about two separate systems with a plug in, there's going to be someintegration that needs to happen and we're lookingat how much automation can we do to keep thoseintegrations always functional so that ifwe need to do upgrades, we can do those together instead of abandoning one side or the other. And I think another areawhere we have shared vision is the multi cloud space where we really see the importance for our customer base toget applications deployed to the right locations. And that could be takingadvantage of different pricing structures in different clouds or it could be hardwarefeatures of functionality. Especially as we getinto edge computing and really creating a differentview of computing fabric, which isn't quite so, you know, client serveror cloud centralized, but much more distributed. >> I like how you said that Chris, earlier about how when you decomposethat monolithic app it connects with the network. That's also the other way around. Little pieces can cometogether and work with the network and then form in real time, whether it's an IOT datacoming into the data center, or pushing computdata to the edge, you got to have that network interaction. This is a real CloudNative evolution, this is the core. >> Yeah, and I think anotherpiece that we haven't touched on as much, Scott mentioned it, was the security component. >> Yeah, explain that. >> Again, with as youdecompose that application into components, you surface those components with APIs, those were internal APIswhen they're now exposed externally security really matters. And having simple policythat describes not just the connectivity topologybut who can speak to whom is pretty fundamentally important. So that you maintainsecurity posture and a risk profile that's acceptable. >> And then I think it'sreally important is, your traditionalenterprise starts to adopt these CloudNative models. You've got a securityteam there that might not necessarily be up to speed or on board. So you've got to havetooling and visualization and analytics to beable to present to them that policies are being enforced correctly and are compliant and all those things so. >> Yeah and they're tough customers too. They're not going to, they expectreally rock solid capability. >> They don't let youjust deploy a big flat network with no policy-- >> Hey what about the APIs? Service areas exposed in the IOT space. >> Yeah.>> Right. >> You got to nail it down. >> Yeah absolutely, sothat's a lot of what we're bringing to the table here, is a lot of Juniper'shistory around developing security products. >> Take a minute to explain,I want to give you some time to get a plug in for Juniper. I've been following youguys for a long time. Junos back on the old days, contrail. Juniper's has had a software, big time software view. >> Yeah. >> Explain the DNA of software at Juniper. >> You know the earlydays of Juniper were, we weren't the first networkvendor on the market. There was already somebodyon the market in the mid 90s that had a pretty solid stronghold on carrier and enterprise networking. We had to come in with a better model. Let's make the box easierto use and simpler. Let's make the interfacea little more structured and understandable. Let's make it programmable, right? I mean the first feature request for Junos was to have a CLI becausethe first interaction to it was just an API call. And that was out of the box from day one. We had to write a user interface to it just to fit in to theexisting network world in the mid 90s. And so we've alwaysbeen really proud of the Junos operating systemthat runs on our boxes. We've really been proudthat we've had this one Junos concept of a commonoperating system on every network device that we deliver. As we've started tovirtualize those network devices for NFE and things like that, it's again that same operatingsystem that we deliver. Contrail came to us through acquisition, so it's not Junos in and of itself, but still leveraging a lot of those same fundamentals around,model driven configuration management, understandableAPIs, and openness that we've always had. >> Cloud operating modelthat everyone's going to, the common operating modelfits in that unification vision that you guys have had. >> Yeah absolutely. >> And really early, by the way, was before SDN was SDN, I think that was SDN's kind of like-- >> I like to dry, I-- >> Should have called it SDN. >> Right, I described SDN as just a big distributed router andreally we've had big distributed routers for a long time. >> John, we are in Seattle, everything we're talkingabout in tech is hipster. >> Chris, great stuff. Great to have you on, Scott. Great smart commentary. CTO Red Hat, you guys are winning. Congratulations on the betsyou made at kubernetes early, >> Yeah. >> CoreOS great acquisition,great team there, and some news there aboutsome dealings out back into the C and CF, soI mean, you've got it-- >> A lot going on. >> A lot going on. And yeah, big news with that other things, I can't remember what it was, it was some big-->> Something in there. >> Something for a million dollars. >> Great news out there. Thanks for coming out, appreciate it. Good to see you.>> Good to see you. >> Alright, breakingdown day one coverage. I'm John Furrier, Stu Miniman. Day two starts tomorrow. Three days of wall towall coverage of KubeCon. And they're shutting down the hall. Be right back and see you tomorrow. Thanks for watching. (techy music)

>> Announcer: From Denver, Colorado, it's theCUBE, covering Super Computing 17. Brought to you by Intel. (soft electronic music) Hey, welcome back, everybody. Jeff Frick here with theCUBE. We're gettin' towards the end of the day here at Super Computing 2017 in Denver, Colorado. 12,000 people talkin' really about the outer limits of what you can do with compute power and lookin' out into the universe and black holes and all kinds of exciting stuff. We're kind of bringin' it back, right? We're all about democratization of technology for people to solve real problems. We're really excited to have our last guest of the day, bringin' the energy, Armughan Ahmad. He's SVP and GM, Hybrid Cloud and Ready Solutions for Dell EMC, and a many-time CUBE alumni. Armughan, great to see you. >> Yeah, good to see you, Jeff. So, first off, just impressions of the show. 12,000 people, we had no idea. We've never been to this show before. This is great. >> This is a show that has been around. If you know the history of the show, this was an IEEE engineering show, that actually turned into high-performance computing around research-based analytics and other things that came out of it. But, it's just grown. We're seeing now, yesterday the super computing top petaflops were released here. So, it's fascinating. You have some of the brightest minds in the world that actually come to this event. 12,000 of them. >> Yeah, and Dell EMC is here in force, so a lot of announcements, a lot of excitement. What are you guys excited about participating in this type of show? >> Yeah, Jeff, so when we come to an event like this, HBC-- We know that HBC is also evolved from your traditional HBC, which was around modeling and simulation, and how it started from engineering to then clusters. It's now evolving more towards machine learning, deep learning, and artificial intelligence. So, what we announced here-- Yesterday, our press release went out. It was really related to how our strategy of advancing HBC, but also democratizing HBC's working. So, on the advancing, on the HBC side, the top 500 super computing list came out. We're powering some of the top 500 of those. One big one is TAC, which is Texas Institute out of UT, University of Texas. They now have, I believe, the number 12 spot in the top 500 super computers in the world, running an 8.2 petaflops off computing. >> So, a lot of zeros. I have no idea what a petaflop is. >> It's very, very big. It's very big. It's available for machine learning, but also eventually going to be available for deep learning. But, more importantly, we're also moving towards democratizing HBC because we feel that democratizing is also very important, where HBC should not only be for the research and the academia, but it should also be focused towards the manufacturing customers, the financial customers, our commercial customers, so that they can actually take the complexity of HBC out, and that's where our-- We call it our HBC 2.0 strategy, off learning from the advancements that we continue to drive, to then also democratizing it for our customers. >> It's interesting, I think, back to the old days of Intel microprocessors getting better and better and better, and you had Spark and you had Silicon Graphics, and these things that were way better. This huge differentiation. But, the Intel I32 just kept pluggin' along and it really begs the question, where is the distinction now? You have huge clusters of computers you can put together with virtualization. Where is the difference between just a really big cluster and HBC and super computing? >> So, I think, if you look at HBC, HBC is also evolving, so let's look at the customer view, right? So, the other part of our announcement here was artificial intelligence, which is really, what is artificial intelligence? It's, if you look at a customer retailer, a retailer has-- They start with data, for example. You buy beer and chips at J's Retailer, for example. You come in and do that, you usually used to run a SEQUEL database or you used to run a RDBMS database, and then that would basically tell you, these are the people who can purchase from me. You know their purchase history. But, then you evolved into BI, and then if that data got really, very large, you then had an HBC cluster, would which basically analyze a lot of that data for you, and show you trends and things. That would then tell you, you know what, these are my customers, this is how many times they are frequent. But, now it's moving more towards machine learning and deep learning as well. So, as the data gets larger and larger, we're seeing datas becoming larger, not just by social media, but your traditional computational frameworks, your traditional applications and others. We're finding that data is also growing at the edge, so by 2020, about 20 billion devices are going to wake up at the edge and start generating data. So, now, Internet data is going to look very small over the next three, four years, as the edge data comes up. So, you actually need to now start thinking of machine learning and deep learning a lot more. So, you asked the question, how do you see that evolving? So, you see an RDBMS traditional SQL evolving to BI. BI then evolves into either an HBC or hadoop. Then, from HBC and hadoop, what do you do next? What you do next is you start to now feed predictive analytics into machine learning kind of solutions, and then once those predictive analytics are there, then you really, truly start thinking about the full deep learning frameworks. >> Right, well and clearly like the data in motion. I think it's funny, we used to make decisions on a sample of data in the past. Now, we have the opportunity to take all the data in real time and make those decisions with Kafka and Spark and Flink and all these crazy systems that are comin' to play. Makes Hadoop look ancient, tired, and yesterday, right? But, it's still valid, right? >> A lot of customers are still paying. Customers are using it, and that's where we feel we need to simplify the complex for our customers. That's why we announced our Machine Learning Ready Bundle and our Deep Learning Ready Bundle. We announced it with Intel and Nvidia together, because we feel like our customers either go to the GPU route, which is your accelerator's route. We announced-- You were talking to Ravi, from our server team, earlier, where he talked about the C4140, which has the quad GPU power, and it's perfect for deep learning. But, with Intel, we've also worked on the same, where we worked on the AI software with Intel. Why are we doing all of this? We're saying that if you thought that RDBMS was difficult, and if you thought that building a hadoop cluster or HBC was a little challenging and time consuming, as the customers move to machine learning and deep learning, you now have to think about the whole stack. So, let me explain the stack to you. You think of a compute storage and network stack, then you think of-- The whole eternity. Yeah, that's right, the whole eternity of our data center. Then you talk about our-- These frameworks, like Theano, Caffe, TensorFlow, right? These are new frameworks. They are machine learning and deep learning frameworks. They're open source and others. Then you go to libraries. Then you go to accelerators, which accelerators you choose, then you go to your operating systems. Now, you haven't even talked about your use case. Retail use case or genomic sequencing use case. All you're trying to do is now figure out TensorFlow works with this accelerator or does not work with this accelerator. Or, does Caffe and Theano work with this operating system or not? And, that is a complexity that is way more complex. So, that's where we felt that we really needed to launch these new solutions, and we prelaunched them here at Super Computing, because we feel the evolution of HBC towards AI is happening. We're going to start shipping these Ready Bundles for machine learning and deep learning in first half of 2018. >> So, that's what the Ready Solutions are? You're basically putting the solution together for the client, then they can start-- You work together to build the application to fix whatever it is they're trying to do. >> That's exactly it. But, not just fix it. It's an outcome. So, I'm going to go back to the retailer. So, if you are the CEO of the biggest retailer and you are saying, hey, I just don't want to know who buys from me, I want to now do predictive analytics, which is who buys chips and beer, but who can I sell more things to, right? So, you now start thinking about demographic data. You start thinking about payroll data and other datas that surround-- You start feeding that data into it, so your machine now starts to learn a lot more of those frameworks, and then can actually give you predictive analytics. But, imagine a day where you actually-- The machine or the deep learning AI actually tells you that it's not just who you want to sell chips and beer to, it's who's going to buy the 4k TV? You're makin' a lot of presumptions. Well, there you go, and the 4k-- But, I'm glad you're doin' the 4k TV. So, that's important, right? That is where our customers need to understand how predictive analytics are going to move towards cognitive analytics. So, this is complex but we're trying to make that complex simple with these Ready Solutions from machine learning and deep learning. >> So, I want to just get your take on-- You've kind of talked about these three things a couple times, how you delineate between AI, machine learning, and deep learning. >> So, as I said, there is an evolution. I don't think a customer can achieve artificial intelligence unless they go through the whole crawl walk around space. There's no shortcuts there, right? What do you do? So, if you think about, Mastercard is a great customer of ours. They do an incredible amount of transactions per day, (laughs) as you can think, right? In millions. They want to do facial recognitions at kiosks, or they're looking at different policies based on your buying behavior-- That, hey, Jeff doesn't buy $20,000 Rolexes every year. Maybe once every week, you know, (laughs) it just depends how your mood is. I was in the Emirates. Exactly, you were in Dubai (laughs). Then, you think about his credit card is being used where? And, based on your behaviors that's important. Now, think about, even for Mastercard, they have traditional RDBMS databases. They went to BI. They have high-performance computing clusters. Then, they developed the hadoop cluster. So, what we did with them, we said okay. All that is good. That data that has been generated for you through customers and through internal IT organizations, those things are all very important. But, at the same time, now you need to start going through this data and start analyzing this data for predictive analytics. So, they had 1.2 million policies, for example, that they had to crunch. Now, think about 1.2 million policies that they had to say-- In which they had to take decisions on. That they had to take decisions on. One of the policies could be, hey, does Jeff go to Dubai to buy a Rolex or not? Or, does Jeff do these other patterns, or is Armughan taking his card and having a field day with it? So, those are policies that they feed into machine learning frameworks, and then machine learning actually gives you patterns that they can now see what your behavior is. Then, based on that, eventually deep learning is when they move to next. Deep learning now not only you actually talk about your behavior patterns on the credit card, but your entire other life data starts to-- Starts to also come into that. Then, now, you're actually talking about something before, that's for catching a fraud, you can actually be a lot more predictive about it and cognitive about it. So, that's where we feel that our Ready Solutions around machine learning and deep learning are really geared towards, so taking HBC to then democratizing it, advancing it, and then now helping our customers move towards machine learning and deep learning, 'cause these buzzwords of AIs are out there. If you're a financial institution and you're trying to figure out, who is that customer who's going to buy the next mortgage from you? Or, who are you going to lend to next? You want the machine and others to tell you this, not to take over your life, but to actually help you make these decisions so that your bottom line can go up along with your top line. Revenue and margins are important to every customer. >> It's amazing on the credit card example, because people get so pissed if there's a false positive. With the amount of effort that they've put into keep you from making fraudulent transactions, and if your credit card ever gets denied, people go bananas, right? The behavior just is amazing. But, I want to ask you-- We're comin' to the end of 2017, which is hard to believe. Things are rolling at Dell EMC. Michael Dell, ever since he took that thing private, you could see the sparkle in his eye. We got him on a CUBE interview a few years back. A year from now, 2018. What are we going to talk about? What are your top priorities for 2018? >> So, number one, Michael continues to talk about that our vision is advancing human progress through technology, right? That's our vision. We want to get there. But, at the same time we know that we have to drive IT transformation, we have to drive workforce transformation, we have to drive digital transformation, and we have to drive security transformation. All those things are important because lots of customers-- I mean, Jeff, do you know like 75% of the S&P 500 companies will not exist by 2027 because they're either not going to be able to make that shift from Blockbuster to Netflix, or Uber taxi-- It's happened to our friends at GE over the last little while. >> You can think about any customer-- That's what Michael did. Michael actually disrupted Dell with Dell technologies and the acquisition of EMC and Pivotal and VMWare. In a year from now, our strategy is really about edge to core to the cloud. We think the world is going to be all three, because the rise of 20 billion devices at the edge is going to require new computational frameworks. But, at the same time, people are going to bring them into the core, and then cloud will still exist. But, a lot of times-- Let me ask you, if you were driving an autonomous vehicle, do you want that data-- I'm an Edge guy. I know where you're going with this. It's not going to go, right? You want it at the edge, because data gravity is important. That's where we're going, so it's going to be huge. We feel data gravity is going to be big. We think core is going to be big. We think cloud's going to be big. And we really want to play in all three of those areas. >> That's when the speed of light is just too damn slow, in the car example. You don't want to send it to the data center and back. You don't want to send it to the data center, you want those decisions to be made at the edge. Your manufacturing floor needs to make the decision at the edge as well. You don't want a lot of that data going back to the cloud. All right, Armughan, thanks for bringing the energy to wrap up our day, and it's great to see you as always. Always good to see you guys, thank you. >> All right, this is Armughan, I'm Jeff Frick. You're watching theCUBE from Super Computing Summit 2017. Thanks for watching. We'll see you next time. (soft electronic music)