Upbeat music plays >> Voice Over: TheCUBE presents Ignite 22, brought to you by Palo Alto Networks. >> Good morning everyone. Welcome to theCUBE. Lisa Martin here with Dave Vellante. We are live at Palo Alto Networks Ignite. This is the 10th annual Ignite. There's about 3,000 people here, excited to really see where this powerhouse organization is taking security. Dave, it's great to be here. Our first time covering Ignite. People are ready to be back. They.. and security is top. It's a board level conversation. >> It is the other Ignite, I like to call it cuz of course there's another big company has a conference name Ignite, so I'm really excited to be here. Palo Alto Networks, a company we've covered for a number of years, as we just wrote in our recent breaking analysis, we've called them the gold standard but it's not just our opinion, we've backed it up with data. The company's on track. We think to do close to 7 billion in revenue by 2023. That's double it's 2020 revenue. You can measure it with execution, market cap M and A prowess. I'm super excited to have the CEO here. >> We have the CEO here, Nikesh Arora joins us from Palo Alto Networks. Nikesh, great to have you on theCube. Thank you for joining us. >> Well thank you very much for having me Lisa and Dave >> Lisa: It was great to see your keynote this morning. You said that, you know fundamentally security is a data problem. Well these days every company has to be a data company. Grocery stores, gas stations, car dealers. How is Palo Alto networks making customers, these data companies, more secure? >> Well Lisa, you know, (coughs) I've only done cybersecurity for about four, four and a half years so when I came to the industry I was amazed to see how security is so reactive as opposed to proactive. We should be able to stop bad threats, right? as they're happening. But I think a lot of threats get through because we don't have the right infrastructure and the right tooling and right products in there. So I think we've been working hard for the last four and a half years to turn it around so we can have consistent data flow across an enterprise and then mine that data for threats and anomalous behavior and try and protect our customers. >> You know the problem, I wrote this, this weekend, the problem in cybersecurity is well understood, you put up that Optiv graph and it's like 8,000 companies >> Yes >> and I think you mentioned your keynote on average, you know 30 to 40 tools, maybe 50, at least 20, >> Yes. >> from the folks that I talked to. So, okay, great, but actually solving that problem is not trivial. To be a consolidator, I mean, everybody wants to consolidate tools. So in your three to four years and security as you well know, it's, you can't fake security. It's a really, really challenging topic. So when you joined Palo Alto Networks and you heard that strategy, I know you guys have been thinking about this for some time, what did you see as the challenges to actually executing on that and how is it that you've been able to sort of get through that knot hole. >> So Dave, you know, it's interesting if you look at the history of cybersecurity, I call them the flavor of the decade, a flare, you know a new threat vector gets created, very large market gets created, a solution comes through, people flock, you get four or five companies will chase that opportunity, and then they become leaders in that space whether it's firewalls or endpoints or identity. And then people stick to their swim lane. The problem is that's a very product centric approach to security. It's not a customer-centric approach. The customer wants a more secure enterprise. They don't want to solve 20 different solutions.. problems with 20 different point solutions. But that's kind of how the industry's grown up, and it's been impossible for a large security company in one category, to actually have a substantive presence in the next category. Now what we've been able to do in the last four and a half years is, you know, from our firewall base we had resources, we had intellectual capability from a security perspective and we had cash. So we used that to pay off our technical debt. We acquired a bunch of companies, we created capability. In the last three years, four years we've created three incremental businesses which are all on track to hit a billion dollars the next 12 to 18 months. >> Yeah, so it's interesting on Twitter last night we had a little conversation about acquirers and who was a good, who was not so good. It was, there was Oracle, they came up actually very high, they'd done pretty, pretty good Job, VMware was on the list, IBM, Cisco, ServiceNow. And if you look at IBM and Cisco's strategy, they tend to be very services heavy, >> Mm >> right? How is it that you have been able to, you mentioned get rid of your technical debt, you invested in that. I wonder if you could, was it the, the Cloud, even though a lot of the Cloud was your own Cloud, was that a difference in terms of your ability to integrate? Because so many companies have tried it in the past. Oracle I think has done a good job, but it took 'em 10 to 12 years, you know, to, to get there. What was the sort of secret sauce? Is it culture, is it just great engineering? >> Dave it's a.. thank you for that. I think, look, it's, it's a mix of everything. First and foremost, you know, there are certain categories we didn't play in so there was nothing to integrate. We built a capability in a category in automation. We didn't have a product, we acquired a company. It's a net new capability in instant response. We didn't have a capability. It was net new capability. So there was, there was, other than integrating culturally and into the organization into our core to market processes there was no technical integration needed. Most of our technical integration was needed in our Cloud platform, which we bought five or six companies, we integrated then we just bought one recently called cyber security as well, which is going to get integrated in the Cloud platform. >> Dave: Yeah. >> And the thing is like, the Cloud platform is net new in the industry. We.. nobody's created a Cloud security platform yet, so we're working hard to create it because we don't want to replicate the mistakes of the past, that were made in enterprise security, in Cloud security. So it's a combination of cultural integration it's a combination of technical integration. The two things we do differently I think, than most people in the industry is look, we have no pride of, you know of innovations. Like, if somebody else has done it, we respect it and we'll acquire it, but we always want to acquire number one or number two in their category. I don't want number three or four. There's three or four for a reason and there still leaves one or two out there to compete with. So we've always acquired one or two, one. And the second thing, which is as important is most of these companies are in the early stage of development. So it's very important for the founding team to be around. So we spend a lot of time making sure they stick around. We actually make our people work for them. My principle is, listen, if they beat us in the open market with all our resources and our people, then they deserve to run this as opposed to us. So most of our new product categories are run by founders of companies required. >> So a little bit of Jack Welch, a little bit of Franks Lubens is a, you know always deference to the founders. But go ahead Lisa. >> Speaking of cultural transformation, you were mentioning your keynote this morning, there's been a significant workforce transformation at Palo Alto Networks. >> Yeah >> Talk a little bit about that, cause that's a big challenge, for many organizations to achieve. Sounds like you've done it pretty well. >> Well you know, my old boss, Eric Schmidt, used to say, 'revenue solves all known problems'. Which kind of, you know, it is a part joking, part true, but you know as Dave mentioned, we've doubled or two and a half time the revenues in the last four and a half years. That allows you to grow, that allows you to increase headcount. So we've gone from four and a half thousand people to 14,000 people. Good news is that's 9,500 people are net new to the company. So you can hire a whole new set of people who have new skills, new capabilities and there's some attrition four and a half thousand, some part of that turns over in four and a half years, so we effectively have 80% net new people, and the people we have, who are there from before, are amazing because they've built a phenomenal firewall business. So it's kind of been right sized across the board. It's very hard to do this if you're not growing. So you got to focus on growing. >> Dave: It's like winning in sports. So speaking of firewalls, I got to ask you does self-driving cars need brakes? So if I got a shout out to my friend Zeus Cararvela so like that's his line about why you need firewalls, right? >> Nikesh: Yes. >> I mean you mentioned it in your keynote today. You said it's the number one question that you get. >> and I don't get it why P industry observers don't go back and say that's, this is ridiculous. The network traffic is doubling or tripling. (clears throat) In fact, I gave an interesting example. We shut down our data centers, as I said, we are all on Google Cloud and Amazon Cloud and then, you know our internal team comes in, we'd want a bigger firewall. I'm like, why do you want a bigger firewall? We shut down our data centers as well. The traffic coming in and out of our campus is doubled. We need a bigger firewall. So you still need a firewall even if you're in the Cloud. >> So I'm going to come back to >> Nikesh: (coughs) >> the M and A strategy. My question is, can you be both best of breed and develop a comprehensive suite number.. part one and part one A of that is do you even have to, because generally sweets win out over best of breed. But what, how do you, how do you respond? >> Well, you know, this is this age old debate and people get trapped in that, I think in my mind, and let me try and expand the analogy which I tried to do up in my keynote. You know, let's assume that Oracle, Microsoft, Dynamics and Salesforce did not exist, okay? And you were running a large company of 50,000 people and your job was to manage the customer process which easier to understand than security. And I said, okay, guess what? I have a quoting system and a lead system but the lead system doesn't talk to my coding system. So I get leads, but I don't know who those customers. And I write codes for a whole new set of customers and I have a customer database. Then when they come as purchase orders, I have a new database with all the customers who've bought something from me, and then when I go get them licensing I have a new database and when I go have customer support, I have a fifth database and there are customers in all five databases. You'll say Nikesh you're crazy, you should have one customer database, otherwise you're never going to be able to make this work. But security is the same problem. >> Dave: Mm I should.. I need consistency in data from suit to nuts. If it's in Cloud, if you're writing code, I need to understand the security flaws before they go into deployment, before they go into production. We for somehow ridiculously have bought security like IT. Now the difference between IT and security is, IT is required to talk to each other, so a Dell server and HP server work very similarly but a Palo Alto firewall and a Checkpoint firewall Fortnight firewall work formally differently. And then how that transitions into endpoints is a whole different ball game. So you need consistency in data, as Lisa was saying earlier, it's a data problem. You need consistency as you traverse to the enterprise. And that's why that's the number one need. Now, when you say best of breed, (coughs) best of breed, if it's fine, if it's a specific problem that you're trying to solve. But if you're trying to make sure that's the data flow that happens, you need both best of breed, you know, technology that stops things and need integration on data. So what we are trying to do is we're trying to give people best to breed solutions in the categories they want because otherwise they won't buy us. But we're also trying to make sure we stitch the data. >> But that definition of best of breed is a little bit of nuance than different in security is what I'm hearing because that consistency >> Nikesh: (coughs) Yes, >> across products. What about across Cloud? You mentioned Google and Amazon. >> Yeah so that's great question. >> Dave: Are you building the security super Cloud, I call it, above the Cloud? >> It's, it's not, it's, less so a super Cloud, It's more like Switzerland and I used to work at Google for 10 years, not a secret. And we used to sell advertising and we decided to go into pub into display ads or publishing, right. Now we had no publishing platform so we had to be good at everybody else's publishing platform >> Dave: Mm >> but we never were able to search ads for everybody else because we only focus on our own platform. So part of it is when the Cloud guys they're busy solving security for their Cloud. Google is not doing anything about Amazon Cloud or Microsoft Cloud, Microsoft's Azure, right? AWS is not doing anything about Google Cloud or Azure. So what we do is we don't have a Cloud. Our job in providing Cloud securities, be Switzerland make sure it works consistently across every Cloud. Now if you try to replicate what we offer Prisma Cloud, by using AWS, Azure and GCP, you'd have to first of all, have three panes of glass for all three of them. But even within them they have four panes of glass for the capabilities we offer. So you could end up with 12 different interfaces to manage a development process, we give you one. Now you tell me which is better. >> Dave: Sounds like a super Cloud to me Lisa (laughing) >> He's big on super Cloud >> Uber Cloud, there you >> Hey I like that, Uber Cloud. Well, so I want to understand Nikesh, what's realistic. You mentioned in your keynote Dave, brought it up that the average organization has 30 to 50 tools, security tools. >> Nikesh: Yes, yes >> On their network. What is realistic for from a consolidation perspective where Palo Alto can come in and say, let me make this consistent and simple for you. >> Well, I'll give you your own example, right? (clears throat) We're probably sub 10 substantively, right? There may be small things here and there we do. But on a substantive protecting the enterprise perspective you be should be down to eight or 10 vendors, and that is not perfect but it's a lot better than 50, >> Lisa: Right? >> because don't forget 50 tools means you have to have capability to understand what those 50 tools are doing. You have to have the capability to upgrade them on a constant basis, learn about their new capabilities. And I just can't imagine why customers have two sets of firewalls right. Now you got to learn both the files on how to deploy both them. That's silly because that's why we need 7 million more people. You need people to understand, so all these tools, who work for companies. If you had less tools, we need less people. >> Do you think, you know I wrote about this as well, that the security industry is anomalous and that the leader has, you know, single digit, low single digit >> Yes >> market shares. Do you think that you can change that? >> Well, you know, when I started that was exactly the observation I had Dave, which you highlighted in your article. We were the largest by revenue, by small margin. And we were one and half percent of the industry. Now we're closer to three, three to four percent and we're still at, you know, like you said, going to be around $7 billion. So I see a path for us to double from here and then double from there, and hopefully as we keep doubling and some point in time, you know, I'd like to get to double digits to start with. >> One of the things that I think has to happen is this has to grow dramatically, the ecosystem. I wonder if you could talk about the ecosystem and your strategy there. >> Well, you know, it's a matter of perspective. I think we have to get more penetrated in our largest customers. So we have, you know, 1800 of the top 2000 customers in the world are Palo Alto customers. But we're not fully penetrated with all our capabilities and the same customers set, so yes the ecosystem needs to grow, but the pandemic has taught us the ecosystem can grow wherever they are without having to come to Vegas. Which I don't think is a bad thing to be honest. So the ecosystem is growing. You are seeing new players come to the ecosystem. Five years ago you didn't see a lot of systems integrators and security. You didn't see security offshoots of telecom companies. You didn't see the Optivs, the WWTs, the (indistinct) of the world (coughs) make a concerted shift towards consolidation or services and all that is happening >> Dave: Mm >> as we speak today in the audience you will find people from Google, Amazon Microsoft are sitting in the audience. People from telecom companies are sitting in the audience. These people weren't there five years ago. So you are seeing >> Dave: Mm >> the ecosystem's adapting. They're, they want to be front and center of solving the customer's problem around security and they want to consolidate capability, they need. They don't want to go work with a hundred vendors because you know, it's like, it's hard. >> And the global system integrators are key. I always say they like to eat at the trough and there's a lot of money in security. >> Yes. >> Dave: (laughs) >> Well speaking of the ecosystem, you had Thomas Curry and Google Cloud CEO in your fireside chat in the keynote. Talk a little bit about how Google Cloud plus Palo Alto Networks, the Zero Trust Partnership and what it's enable customers to achieve. >> Lisa, that's a great question. (clears his throat) Thank you for bringing it up. Look, you know the, one of the most fundamental shifts that is happening is obviously the shift to the Cloud. Now when that shift fully, sort of, takes shape you will realize if your network has changed and you're delivering everything to the Cloud you need to go figure out how to bring the traffic to the Cloud. You don't have to bring it back to your data center you can bring it straight to the Cloud. So in that context, you know we use Google Cloud and Amazon Cloud, to be able to carry our traffic. We're going from a product company to a services company in addition, right? Cuz when we go from firewalls to SASE we're not carrying your traffic. When we carry our traffic, we need to make sure we have underlying capability which is world class. We think GCP and AWS and Azure run some of the biggest and best networks in the world. So our partnership with Google is such that we use their public Cloud, we sit on top of their Cloud, they give us increased enhanced functionality so that our customers SASE traffic gets delivered in priority anywhere in the world. They give us tooling to make sure that there's high reliability. So you know, we partner, they have Beyond Corp which is their version of Zero Trust which allows you to take unmanaged devices with browsers. We have SASE, which allows you to have managed devices. So the combination gives our collective customers the ability for Zero Trust. >> Do you feel like there has to be more collaboration within the ecosystem, the security, you know, landscape even amongst competitors? I mean I think about Google acquires Mandiant. You guys have Unit 42. Should and will, like, Wendy Whitmore and maybe they already are, Kevin Mandia talk more and share more data. If security's a data problem is all this data >> Nikesh: Yeah look I think the industry shares threat data, both in private organizations as well as public and private context, so that's not a problem. You know the challenge with too much collaboration in security is you never know. Like you know, the moment you start sharing your stuff at third parties, you go out of Secure Zone. >> Lisa: Mm >> Our biggest challenge is, you know, I can't trust a third party competitor partner product. I have to treat it with as much suspicion as anything else out there because the only way I can deliver Zero Trust is to not trust anything. So collaboration in Zero Trust are a bit of odds with each other. >> Sounds like another problem you can solve >> (laughs) >> Nikesh last question for you. >> Yes >> Favorite customer or example that you think really articulates the value of what Palo Alto was delivering? >> Look you know, it's a great question, Lisa. I had this seminal conversation with a customer and I explained all those things we were talking about and the customer said to me, great, okay so what do I need to do? I said, fun, you got to trust me because you know, we are on a journey, because in the past, customers have had to take the onus on themselves of integrating everything because they weren't sure a small startup will be independent, be bought by another cybersecurity company or a large cybersecurity company won't get gobbled up and split into pieces by private equity because every one of the cybersecurity companies have had a shelf life. So you know, our aspiration is to be the evergreen cybersecurity company. We will always be around and we will always tackle innovation and be on the front line. So the customer understood what we're doing. Over the last three years we've been working on a transformation journey with them. We're trying to bring them, or we have brought them along the path of Zero Trust and we're trying to work with them to deliver this notion of reducing their meantime to remediate from days to minutes. Now that's an outcome based approach that's a partnership based approach and we'd like, love to have more and more customers of that kind. I think we weren't ready to be honest as a company four and a half years ago, but I think today we're ready. Hence my keynote was called The Perfect Storm. I think we're at the right time in the industry with the right capabilities and the right ecosystem to be able to deliver what the industry needs. >> The perfect storm, partners, customers, investors, employees. Nikesh, it's been such a pleasure having you on theCUBE. Thank you for coming to talk to Dave and me right after your keynote. We appreciate that and we look forward to two days of great coverage from your executives, your customers, and your partners. Thank you. >> Well, thank you for having me, Lisa and Dave and thank you >> Dave: Pleasure >> for what you guys do for our industry. >> Our pleasure. For Nikesh Arora and Dave Vellante, I'm Lisa Martin, you're watching theCUBE live at MGM Grand Hotel in Las Vegas, Palo Alto Ignite 22. Stick around Dave and I will be joined by our next guest in just a minute. (cheerful music plays out)

>>Hey everyone. Welcome back to the Cube's coverage of snowflake summit. 22 live from Las Vegas. We're at Caesar's forum, Lisa Martin, with Dave ante. We've been having some great conversations over the last day and a half. This guy just came from main stage interviewing the CEO, Franks Lubin himself, who joins us after our next guest here, we're gonna be talking customers and successes with snowflake Rosemary Hua joins us the global head of retail at snowflake and Patrick Kelly, the VP of product management at their customer 84 51. Welcome to the program guys. >>Thank you. It's nice to be here. So >>Patrick, 84 51. Talk to us about the business, give the audience an overview of what you guys are doing. And then we'll talk about how you're working with snowflake. >>Yeah, absolutely. Thank you both for, uh, the opportunity to be here. So 84 51 is a retail data science insights and media company. And really what that means is that we, we partner with our, uh, parent company Kroger, as well as consumer packaged goods or brands and brokers and agencies, really to understand shoppers and create relevant, personalized, and valuable experiences for shoppers in source and grocery stores. >>That relevance is key. We all expect that these days, I think the last couple of years as everyone's patience has been wearing. Yeah, very thin. I'm not, I'm not convinced it's gonna come back either, but we expect that brands are gonna interact with us and offer us the next best offer. That's actually relevant and personalized to us. How does AB 4 51 achieve that? >>Yeah, it's a great question. And you're right. That expectation is only growing. Um, and it takes data analytics, data science and all of these capabilities in order to deliver it on that promise, uh, you know, big, a big part of the relationship that retailers and brands have with consumers is about a value exchange. And it's, again, it's about that expectation that brands and retailers need to be able to meet the ever-changing needs of consumers. Uh, whether that be introducing new brands or offering the right price points or promotions or ensuring you meet them where they are, whether it be online, which has obviously been catalyzed by, um, the pandemic over the last two years or in store. So a deep understanding of, of the customer, which is founded in data and the appropriate analytics and science, and then the collaboration back with the retailers and, and the brands so that you can bring that experience to life. Again, that could be a price point on the, on the shelf, um, or it could be a personalized email or, um, website interaction that delivers the right experience for the co for the consumer. So they can see that value and really build loyalty >>In the right time in real time. That's >>One of the most Marrit I'm in real time. That's right. One goes, Mary, I love the concept of the, the actual platform of the retail data cloud. Yes. It's so unique for a technology company. Snowflake's a technology company, you see services companies do it all the time, but yeah, but to actually transform what was considered a data warehouse in the cloud to a platform for data, I call it super cloud. Yeah. Tell us how this came about, um, how you were able to actually develop this and where you are in that journey. >>Yeah, absolutely. It's been a big focus on data sharing. We saw that that's how our customers are interacting with each other is using our data sharing functionality to really bring that ecosystem to life. So that's retailers sharing with their consumer products companies selling through those retailers. And then of course the data service companies that are kind of helping both sides and that data sharing functionality is the kind of under fabric for the data cloud, where we bring in partners. We bring in customers and we bring in tech solutions to the table. Um, and customers can use the data cloud, not only with the powered by partners that we have, but also the data marketplace, getting that data in real time and making some business value out of that data. So that's really the big focus of snowflake is investing in industry to realize the business value >>And talk about ecosystem and how important that is, where, where you leave off and the ecosystem picks up and how that's evolving. >>Absolutely. And I'm sure you can join in on this, but, um, definitely that collaboration between retailers and CPGs, right? I mean, retailers have that rich first party customer data. They see all those transactions, they see when people are shopping and then the brands really need that first party data to figure out what their, how their customers are interacting with their brand. And so that collaborative nature that makes up the ecosystem. And of course, you've got the tech partners in the middle that are kind of providing enrich data assets as well. You guys at 84 51 are a huge part of that ecosystem being, you know, one of the key retailers in, in the United States. Um, have you been seeing that as well with your brands? Yeah, >>Absolutely. I mean data and data science has always been core to the identity of 84 51. Um, and historically a lot of the interaction that we have with brands were through report web based applications, right. And it's a really great seamless way to, to deliver insights to non-technical users. But as the entire market has really started to invest in data and data science and technology and capabilities, you know, we, we launched a collaborative cloud last year and it was really an opportunity for us to reimagine what that experience would look like and to ensure that we are meeting the evolving needs of the industry. And as Rosemary pointed out, you know, data sharing is, is table stakes, right? It's a capability that you don't wanna have to think about. You wanna be thinking about the strategic initiatives, the science that you're gonna create in order to drive action and personalize experiences. So what we've found at 84 51 is really investing in our collaborative cloud, um, and working with leading technology providers like snowflake to make that seamless has been, you know, the, the, the UN unlock to ensure that data and data science can be a competitive advantage for our clients and partners, not just, you know, the retailer in 84 51 >>Is the collaborative cloud built on snowflake. >>Yeah. So the collaborative cloud is really about, um, ensuring that data sharing through snowflake is done seamlessly. So we've really, we've invited our clients and partners to build their own science on 84 51 S first party data asset through Kroger. And our, our data is represents 60 million households, half of the United States, 2 billion transactions annually, the robustness of that data asset. And it's it's it's analysis ready is so impactful to the investment that brands can make in their own data science efforts, because brands wanna invest in data science, not to do data work, not to do cleaning and Muning and, and merging and, and standardizing. They wanna do analysis. That's gonna impact the strategies and ultimately the shopper's lives. So again, we're able to leverage the capabilities of snowflake to ensure data sharing is not part of our day to day conversation. Data sharing is something we can take for granted so that we can talk about the shopper and our strategies. >>So this is why I call it super cloud. So Jerry Chen wrote an article of castles in the cloud. And in there he said, he called it sub clouds. And I'm like, no, it's, uh, by the way, great article. Jerry's brilliant. But so you got AWS, you built on top of AWS. That's right. You got the snowflake data called you're building on top of that. And I was sitting at the table and my kid goes, this is super, I'm like, ah, super clouds. So I didn't really even coin it, but, and then I realized somebody else had use it before, but that is different. It's new, it's around data. It's around vertical industries. Yes. Um, I, I get a lot of heat for that term, but I feel like this look around this industry, everybody's doing that that's that is digital transformation. That's don't you see that with your customers? >>Absolutely. I mean, there's a lot of different industry trends where you can't use your own historical first party data to figure out what customers are doing. I mean, with COVID customers are behaving totally differently than they used to. And you can't use your historical data to predict out of stocks or how the customer's gonna be interacting with your brand anymore. And you need that third party macroeconomic data. You need that third party COVID data or foot traffic data to enrich what your businesses are doing. And so, yes, it, it is a super cloud. And I think the big differentiator is that we are cloud agnostic, meaning that, like you said, you can take the technology for granted. You don't have to worry about where the other person has their tech stack. It's all the same experience on the snowflake super cloud as he put it. So, >>So Patrick, talk about the, the, the impact that you have been able to have during COVID. I mean, everybody had supply chain issues, but, you know, if you took, if you took away the machine learning and the data science that you are initiating, would life have been harder? Do you have data on that? You know, the, the, what if we didn't have this capability during the >>Challenges? No, it's, it's a fantastic question. And I'll actually build on the example that Rosemary, um, offered around COVID and better understanding COVID. So, um, in the past, you know, when we talk about data sharing data collaboration, it's basically wasn't possible, right? What's your tech stack, what's mine. How do we share data? I don't wanna send you my data without go releasing governance. It was a non-starter and, you know, through technology like snowflake, as we launched the collaborative cloud, we actually had a pilot client start right at the beginning of 2020. Um, we, we had, you know, speced out it onto use cases that really impactful for their, for their organization. But of course, what happened is, uh, a pandemic hit us and it became the biggest question, CEO executive team, all the way down is what is happening, what is happening in our stores? >>How are shoppers behaving and what, what that client of ours came to realize is while we, we actually, we have access to the E 4 51 collaborative cloud. We can see half of America's behavior last week down to the basket transaction UPC level. Let's get going. So again, the conversation wasn't about, you know, what data sources, how do we scramble? How do we get it together? What technologies, how do we collaborate? It was immediately focused on building the analysis to better understand that. And, and the outcomes that drove actually were all the way from manufacturing impact to marketing, to merchandising, because that brand was able to figure out, Hey, our top selling products, they're, they're not on the shelves. What are shoppers doing? Are they going to a, another brand? Are they not buying it all together? Are they going to a different size? Are they staying within our product portfolio? Are they going to a competitor? And those insights drove everything again from what do we need to manufacture more to, how do we need to communicate and incent our, our, our shoppers, our, our loyal shoppers also what's happening to our non loyals. Are they looking for an, you know, an alternative that a need that we can serve that level of, of shopper and customer understanding going all the way up to a strategic initiatives is something that is enabled through the Supercloud >><laugh>. How do you facilitate privacy as we're seeing this proliferation of privacy legislation? Yeah. I think there's now 22 states that have individual, and California's changing to CPR a at the beginning of yes, January 23. How do you balance that need that ability to share data? Yeah. Equitably fast, quickly, but also balance consumer privacy requirements. >>I mean, I could take a stab first. I mean, at snowflake, right, there is no better place to share your data that in a governed way than with snowflake data sharing, because then you can see and understand how the other side is using your data. Whereas in traditional methods, using an API or using an FTP server, you wouldn't be able to actually see how the other side is using your data. But in addition to that, we have the clean room where you can actually join on that underlying PII data without exposing it, because you can share functions securely on, on both sides. So I think there is no better place to do it than here at snowflake. Um, and because we deeply understand those policies, I think we are kind of keeping up with the times trying to get in front of things so that our data sharing capabilities stay up to date. When you have to expunge records, identify records with CCPA and, and GDPR and, and all the rest that are coming. Um, and so, so, I mean, I think especially with 84 50 ones, um, you know, collaborative cloud also building on top of the clean room, um, in, in further road in the further roadmap, I think, uh, you're gonna see some of that privacy compliant, data sharing, coming to play as well. You >>Know, what's interesting, Patrick is we were just in that session with the Frank Q and a, and he was very candid about when he was talking about, uh, Apache, uh, I'm sorry. Apache iceberg. Yeah. Yes. And he, he basically flat out said, look, you know, you gotta put it into the snowflake data cloud. It's, it's better there, but people might, you know, want to put it outside, not get locked in, et cetera. But what I'm, I'm listening to you saying it's so much easier for you today that could evolve something open source. And, and how do you think about that in terms of placing your bets? >>Yeah, it, it's a great question and really to go back to privacy, um, as a total topic, I mean, you're right. It's extremely relevant topic. It's, it's, you know, very ever changing right now at 84 51. Privacy is, is first it's the foundation. Um, it it's table stakes and that's from a policy that's from a governance, it's from a technology capability standpoint. And it's part of our, our culture because, um, it, it, because it has to be, uh, and, and so when we, when we think about, you know, the products that we're gonna build, how we want to implement, it's, it's a requirement that we leverage technologies that enable us to secure the governance and ensure that we're privacy compliant. Um, the customer data asset that we have is, is, you know, is extremely valuable as we've talked about in this interview, it's also responsibility. And we take that very, very seriously. And so, you know, Dave, back to your question about, you know, decisions to go, you know, open source or leverage for technologies. So there's always a balance. You know, we, we love to push the, the bounds of innovation and, and we wanna be on the forefront of data, sharing data, science, collaboration for this industry. But at the same time, we balance that with making sure that our technology partners are the right ones, because we are not willing to compromise our governance and our fir and our, our privacy, uh, priorities. >>That's gonna be interesting to see how that evolves. And I, I loved that. Frank was so candid about it. I think the key for any cloud player, including a super cloud is you gotta have an ecosystem without an ecosystem. Forget it. And you see a lot of companies. I mean, we were at Dell tech world. They're kind of, they're at the beginnings of that, but the ecosystems, nothing like this, right. Which is amazing, nothing against, against Dell, they're just kind of getting started and you have to be open. You have to have optionality. Yep. You know, so I, I don't know if we'll see the day where they're including data, bricks, data lakes inside of the snowflake cloud. That will be amazing. <laugh> but you know, you never say never in the world of cloud, >>Do you stranger things, Rosemary and Patrick, thank you so much for joining us talking about what 84 51 is doing powered by snowflake and also the rise of the snowflake retail cloud and what that's doing. We'll have to have you back on to hear what's going on as I'm sure the adoption will continue to increase. Absolutely. Thank you so much to both for having us, our pleasure. You appreciate this for our guests. I'm Lisa Martin. He's Dave ante stick around Dave will be back with Frankman CEO of snowflake. Next. You won't wanna miss it.

>>Good morning live from Las Vegas, Lisa Martin and Dave Lanta here covering snowflake summit 22. Dave, it's great to be here in person. The keynote we just came from was standing room only. In fact, there was overflow. People are excited to be back and to hear from the company in person the first time, since the IPO, >>Lots of stuff, lots of deep technical dives, uh, you know, they took the high end of the pyramid and then dove down deep in the keynotes. It >>Was good. They did. And we've got Doug Hench with us to break this down in the next eight to 10 minutes, VP and principle analyst at constellation research. Doug, welcome to the cube. >>Great to be here. >>All right, so guys, I was telling Dave, as we were walking back from the keynote, this was probably the most technical keynote I've seen in a very long time. Obviously in person let's break down some of the key announcements. What were some of the things Dave that stood out to you and what they announced just in the last hour and a half alone? >>Well, I, you know, we had a leave before they did it, but the unit store piece was really interesting to me cuz you know, the big criticism is, oh, say snowflake, that doesn't do transaction data. It's just a data warehouse. And now they're sort of reaching out. We're seeing the evolution of the ecosystem. Uh, sluman said it was by design. It was one of the questions I had for them. Is this just kind of happen or is it by design? So that's one of many things that, that we can unpack. I mean the security workload, uh, the, the Apache tables, we were just talking about thatt, which not a lot of hands went up when they said, who uses Apache tables, but, but a lot of the things they're doing seem to me anyway, to be trying to counteract the narrative, that snow, I mean that data bricks is put out there about you guys. Aren't open, you're a walled garden and now they're saying, Hey, we're we're as open as anybody, but what are your thoughts, Doug? >>Well, that's the, the iceberg announcement, uh, also, uh, the announcement of, of uni store being able to reach out to, to any source. Uh, you know, I think the big theme here was this, this contrast you constantly see with snowflake between their effort to democratize and simplify and disrupt the market by bringing in a great big tent. And you saw that great big tent here today, 7,000 people, 2,007,000 plus I'm told 2000 just three years ago. So this company is growing hugely quickly, >>Unprecedented everybody. >>Yeah. Uh, fastest company to a billion in revenue is Frank Salman said in his keynote today. Um, you know, and I think that there's, there's that great big tent. And then there's the innovations they're delivering. And a lot of their announcements are way ahead of the J general availability. A lot of the things they talked about today, Python support and some, some other aspects they're just getting into public preview. And many of the things that they're announcing today are in private preview. So it could be six, 12 months be before they're generally available. So they're here educating a lot of these customers. What is iceberg? You know, they're letting them know about, Hey, we're not just the data warehouse. We're not just letting you migrate your old workloads into the cloud. We're helping you innovate with things like the data marketplace. I see the data marketplace is really crucial to a lot of the announcements they're making today. Particularly the native apps, >>You know, what was interesting sluman in his keynote said we don't use the term data mesh, cuz that means has meaning to the people, lady from Geico stood up and said, we're building a data mesh. And when you think about, you know, the, those Gemma Dani's definition of data mesh, Snowflake's actually ticking a lot of boxes. I mean, it's it's is it a decentralized architecture? You could argue that it's sort of their own wall garden, but things like data as product we heard about building data products, uh, uh, self-serve infrastructure, uh, computational governance, automated governance. So those are all principles of Gemma's data mesh. So I there's close as anybody that, that I've seen with the exception of it's all in the data cloud. >>Why do you think he was very particular in saying we're not gonna call it a data mesh? I, >>I think he's respecting the principles that have been put forth by the data mesh community generally and specifically Jamma Dani. Uh, and they don't want to, you know, they don't want to data mesh wash. I mean, I, I, I think that's a good call. >>Yeah, that's it's a little bit out there and, and it, they didn't talk about data mesh so much as Geico, uh, the keynote or mentioned their building one. So again, they have this mix of the great big tent of customers and then very forward looking very sophisticated customers. And that's who they're speaking to with some of these announcements, like the native apps and the uni store to bring transactional data, bring more data in and innovate, create new apps. And the key to the apps is that they're made available through the marketplace. Things like data sharing. That's pretty simple. A lot of, uh, of their competitors are talking about, Hey, we can data share, but they don't have the things that make it easy, like the way to distribute the data, the way to monetize the data. So now they're looking forward monetizing apps, they changed the name from the data marketplace to the, to the snowflake marketplace. So it'll be apps. It will be data. It'll be all sorts of innovative products. >>We talk about Geico, uh, JPMC is speaking at this conference, uh, and the lead technical person of their data mesh initiative. So it's like, they're some of their customers that they're putting forth. So it's kind of interesting. And then Doug, something else that you and I have talked about on the, some of the panels that we've done is you've got an application development stack, you got the database over there and then you have the data analytics stack and we've, I've said, well, those things come together. Then people have said, yeah, they have to. And this is what snowflake seems to be driving towards. >>Well with uni store, they're reaching out and trying to bring transactional data in, right? Hey, don't limit this to analytical information. And there's other ways to do that, like CDC and streaming, but they're very closely tying that again to that marketplace, with the idea of bring your data over here and you can monetize it. Don't just leave it in that transactional database. So a, another reach to a broader play across a big community that they're >>Building different than what we saw last week at Mongo, different than what you know, Oracle does with, with heat wave. A lot of ways to skin a cat. >>That was gonna be my next question to both of you is talk to me about all the announcements that we saw. And, and like we said, we didn't actually get to see the entire keynote had come back here. Where are they from a differentiation perspective in terms of the competitive market? You mentioned Doug, a lot of the announcements in either private preview or soon to be public preview early. Talk to me about your thoughts where they are from a competitive standpoint. >>Again, it's that dichotomy between their very forward looking announcements. They're just coming on with things like Python support. That's just becoming generally available. They're just introducing, uh, uh, machine learning algorithms, like time series built into the database. So in some ways they're catching up while painting this vision of future capabilities and talking about things that are in development or in private preview that won't be here for a year or two, but they're so they're out there, uh, talking about a BLE bleeding edge story yet the reality is the product sometimes are lagging behind. Yeah, >>It's interesting. I mean, they' a lot of companies choose not to announce anything until it's ready to ship. Yeah. Typically that's a technique used by the big whales to try to freeze the market, but I think it's different here. And the strategy is to educate customers on what's possible because snowflake really does have, you know, they're trying to differentiate from, Hey, we're not just a data warehouse. We have a highly differentiatable strategy from whether it's Oracle or certainly, you know, Mongo is more transactional, but, but you know, whether it's couch base or Redis or all the other databases out there, they're saying we're not a database, we're a data cloud. <laugh> right. Right. Okay. What is that? Well, look at all the things that you can do with the data cloud, but to me, the most interesting is you can actually build data products and you can monetize that. And their, the emphasis on ecosystem, you, they look at Salman's previous company would ServiceNow took a long time for them to build an ecosystem. It was a lot of SI in smaller SI and they finally kind of took off, but this is exceeding my expectations and ecosystem is critical because they can't do it all. You know, they're gonna O otherwise they're gonna spread themselves to >>That. That's what I think some competitors just don't get about snowflake. They don't get that. It's all about the community, about their network that they're building and the relationships between these customers. And that they're facilitating that with distribution, with monetization, things that are hard. So you can't just add sharing, or you can share data from one of their, uh, legacy competitors, uh, in, in somebody else's marketplace that doesn't facilitate the transaction that doesn't, you know, build on the community. Well, >>And you know, one of the criticisms too, of the criticism on snowflake goes, they don't, you know, they can't do complex joins. They don't do workload management. And I think their answer to that is, well, we're gonna look to the ecosystem to do that. Or you, you saw some kind of, um, cost governance today in the, in the keynote, we're gonna help you optimize your spend, um, a little different than workload management, but related >>Part of their governance was having a, a, a node, uh, for every workload. So workload isolation in that way, but that led to the cost problems, you know, like too many nodes with not enough optimization. So here too, you saw a lot of, uh, announcements around cost controls, budgets, new features, uh, user groups that you could bring, uh, caps and guardrails around those costs. >>In the last couple minutes, guys talk about their momentum. Franks Lutman showed a slide today that showed over 5,900 customers. I was looking at some stats, uh, in the last couple of days that showed that there is an over 1200% increase in the number of customers with a million plus ARR. Talk about their momentum, what you expect to see here. A lot of people here, people are ready to hear what they're doing in person. >>Well, I think this, the stats say it all, uh, fastest company to a, to a billion in revenue. Uh, you see the land and expand experience that many companies have and in the cost control, uh, announcements they were making, they showed the typical curve like, and he talked about it being a roller coaster, and we wanna help you level that out. Uh, so that's, uh, a matter of maturation. Uh, that's one of the downsides of this rapid growth. You know, you have customers adding new users, adding new clusters, multi clusters, and the costs get outta control. They want to help customers even that out, uh, with reporting with these budget and cost control measures. So, uh, one of the growing pains that comes with, uh, adding so many customers so quickly, and those customers adding so many users and new, uh, workloads quickly, >>I know we gotta break, but last point I'll make about the key. Uh, keynote is SL alluded to the fact that they're not taking the foot off the gas. They don't see any reason to, despite the narrative in the press, they have inherent profitability. If they want to be more profitable, they could be, but they're going for growth >>Going for growth. There is so much to unpack in the next three days. You won't wanna miss it. The Cube's wall to oil coverage, Lisa Martin for Dave Valenti, Doug hen joined us in our keynote analysis. Thanks so much for walking, watching stick around. Our first guest is up in just a few minutes.

(bright music) >> Welcome back to the CUBE presents the AWS Startup Showcase The Next Big Thing in cloud startups with AI security and life science tracks, 15 hottest growing startups are presented. And we had a great opening keynote with luminaries in the industry. And now our closing keynote is to get a deeper dive on cracking the code in the enterprise, how startups are changing the game and helping companies change. And they're also changing the game of open source. We have a great guest, Katie Drucker, Head of Business Development, Madrona Venture Group. Katie, thank you for coming on the CUBE for this special closing keynote. >> Thank you for having me, I appreciate it. >> So one of the topics we talked about with Soma from Madrona on the opening keynote, as well as Ali from Databricks is how startups are seeing success faster. So that's the theme of the Cloud speed, agility, but the game has changed in the enterprise. And I want to really discuss with you how growth changes and growth strategy specifically. They talk, go to market. We hear things like good sales to enterprise sales, organic, freemium, there's all kinds of different approaches, but at the end of the day, the most successful companies, the ones that might not be known that just come out of nowhere. So the economics are changing and the buyers are thinking differently. So let's explore that topic. So take us through your view 'cause you have a lot of experience. But first talk about your role at Madrona, what you do. >> Absolutely all great points. So my role at Madrona, I think I have personally one of the more enviable jobs and that my job is to... I get the privilege of working with all of these fantastic entrepreneurs in our portfolio and doing whatever we can as a firm to harness resources, knowledge, expertise, connections, to accelerate their growth. So my role in setting up business development is taking a look at all of those tools in the tool chest and partnering with the portfolio to make it so. And in our portfolio, we have a wide range of companies, some rely on enterprise sales, some have other go to markets. Some are direct to consumer, a wide range. >> Talk about the growth strategies that you see evolving because what's clear with the pandemic. And as we come out of it is that there are growth plays happening that don't look a little bit differently, more obvious now because of the Cloud scale, we're seeing companies like Databricks, like Snowflake, like other companies that have been built on the cloud or standalone. What are some of the new growth techniques, or I don't want to say growth hacking, that is a pejorative term, but like just a way for companies to quickly describe their value to an enterprise buyer who's moving away from the old RFP days of vendor selection. The game has changed. So take us through how you see secret key and unlocking that new equation of how to present value to an enterprise and how you see enterprises evaluating startups. >> Yes, absolutely. Well, and that's got a question, that's got a few components nestled in what I think are some bigger trends going on. AWS of course brought us the Cloud first. I think now the Cloud is more and more a utility. And so it's incumbent upon thinking about how an enterprise 'cause using the Cloud is going to go up the value stack and partner with its cloud provider and other service providers. I think also with that agility of operations, you have thinning, if you will, the systems of record and a lot of new entrance into this space that are saying things like, how can we harness AIML and other emerging trends to provide more value directly around work streams that were historically locked into those systems of record? And then I think you also have some price plans that are far more flexible around usage based as opposed to just flat subscription or even these big clunky annual or multi-year RFP type stuff. So all of those trends are really designed in ways that favor the emerging startup. And I think if done well, and in partnership with those underlying cloud providers, there can be some amazing benefits that the enterprise realizes an opportunity for those startups to grow. And I think that's what you're seeing. I think there's also this emergence of a buyer that's different than the CIO or the site the CISO. You have things with low code, no code. You've got other buyers in the organization, other line of business executives that are coming to the table, making software purchase decisions. And then you also have empowered developers that are these citizen builders and developer buyers and personas that really matter. So lots of inroads in places for a startup to reach in the enterprise to make a connection and to bring value. That's a great insight. I want to ask that just if you don't mind follow up on that, you mentioned personas. And what we're seeing is the shift happens. There's new roles that are emerging and new things that are being reconfigured or refactored if you will, whether it's human resources or AI, and you mentioned ML playing a role in automation. These are big parts of the new value proposition. How should companies posture to the customer? Because I don't want to say pivot 'cause that means it's not working but mostly extending our iterating around their positioning because as new things have not yet been realized, it might not be operationalized in a company or maybe new things need to be operationalized, it's a new solution for that. Positioning the value is super important and a lot of companies often struggle with that, but also if they get it right, that's the key. What's your feeling on startups in their positioning? So people will dismiss it like, "Oh, that's marketing." But maybe that's important. What's your thoughts on the great positioning question? >> I've been in this industry a long time. And I think there are some things that are just tried and true, and it is not unique to tech, which is, look, you have to tell a story and you have to reach the customer and you have to speak to the customer's need. And what that means is, AWS is a great example. They're famous for the whole concept of working back from the customer and thinking about what that customer's need is. I think any startup that is looking to partner or work alongside of AWS really has to embody that very, very customer centric way of thinking about things, even though, as we just talked about those personas are changing who that customer really is in the enterprise. And then speaking to that value proposition and meeting that customer and creating a dialogue with them that really helps to understand not only what their pain points are, but how you were offering solves those pain points. And sometimes the customer doesn't realize that that is their pain point and that's part of the education and part of the way in which you engage that dialogue. That doesn't change a lot, just generation to generation. I think the modality of how we have that dialogue, the methods in which we choose to convey that change, but that basic discussion is what makes us human. >> What's your... Great, great, great insight. I want to ask you on the value proposition question again, the question I often get, and it's hard to answer is am I competing on value or am I competing on commodity? And depending on where you're in the stack, there could be different things like, for example, land is getting faster, smaller, cheaper, as an example on Amazon. That's driving down to low cost high value, but it shifts up the stack. You start to see in companies this changing the criteria for how to evaluate. So an enterprise might be struggling. And I often hear enterprises say, "I don't know how to pick who I need. I buy tools, I don't buy many platforms." So they're constantly trying to look for that answer key, if you will, what's your thoughts on the changing requirements of an enterprise? And how to do vendor selection. >> Yeah, so obviously I don't think there's a single magic bullet. I always liked just philosophically to think about, I think it's always easier and frankly more exciting as a buyer to want to buy stuff that's going to help me make more revenue and build and grow as opposed to do things that save me money. And just in a binary way, I like to think which side of the fence are you sitting on as a product offering? And the best ways that you can articulate that, what opportunities are you unlocking for your customer? The problems that you're solving, what kind of growth and what impact is that going to lead to, even if you're one or two removed from that? And again, that's not a new concept. And I think that the companies that have that squarely in mind when they think about their go-to market strategy, when they think about the dialogue they're having, when they think about the problems that they're solving, find a much faster path. And I think that also speaks to why we're seeing so many explosion in the line of business, SAS apps that are out there. Again, that thinning of the systems of record, really thinking about what are the scenarios and work streams that we can have happened that are going to help with that revenue growth and unlocking those opportunities. >> What's the common startup challenge that you see when they're trying to do business development? Usually they build the product first, product led value, you hear that a lot. And then they go, "Okay, we're ready to sell, hire a sales guy." That seems to be shifting away because of the go to markets are changing. What are some of the challenges that startups have? What are some that you're seeing? >> Well, and I think the point that you're making about the changes are really almost a result of the trends that we're talking about. The sales organization itself is becoming... These work streams are becoming instrumented. Data is being collected, insights are being derived off of those things. So you see companies like Clary or Highspot or two examples or tutorial that are in our portfolio that are looking at that action and making the art of sales and marketing far more sophisticated overall, which then leads to the different growth hacking and the different insights that are driven. I think the common mistakes that I see across the board, especially with earlier stage startups, look you got to find product market fit. I think that's always... You start with a thesis or a belief and a passion that you're building something that you think the market needs. And it's a lot of dialogue you have to have to make sure that you do find that. I think once you find that another common problem that I see is leading with an explanation of technology. And again, not focusing on the buyer or the... Sorry, the buyer about solving a problem and focusing on that problem as opposed to focusing on how cool your technology is. Those are basic and really, really simple. And then I think setting a set of expectations, especially as it comes to business development and partnering with companies like AWS. The researching that you need to adequately meet the demand that can be turned on. And then I'm sure you heard about from Databricks, from an organization like AWS, you have to be pragmatic. >> Yeah, Databricks gone from zero a software sales a few years ago to over a billion. Now it looks like a Snowflake which came out of nowhere and they had a great product, but built on Amazon, they became the data cloud on top of Amazon. And now they're growing just whole new business models and new business development techniques. Katie, thank you for sharing your insight here. The CUBE's closing keynote. Thanks for coming on. >> Appreciate it, thank you. >> Okay, Katie Drucker, Head of Business Development at Madrona Venture Group. Premier VC in the Seattle area and beyond they're doing a lot of cloud action. And of course they know AWS very well and investing in the ecosystem. So great, great stuff there. Next up is Peter Wagner partner at Wing.VX. Love this URL first of all 'cause of the VC domain extension. But Peter is a long time venture capitalist. I've been following his career. He goes back to the old networking days, back when the internet was being connected during the OSI days, when the TCP IP open systems interconnect was really happening and created so much. Well, Peter, great to see you on the CUBE here and congratulations with success at Wing VC. >> Yeah, thanks, John. It's great to be here. I really appreciate you having me. >> Reason why I wanted to have you come on. First of all, you had a great track record in investing over many decades. You've seen many waves of innovation, startups. You've seen all the stories. You've seen the movie a few times, as I say. But now more than ever, enterprise wise it's probably the hottest I've ever seen. And you've got a confluence of many things on the stack. You were also an early seed investor in Snowflake, well-regarded as a huge success. So you've got your eye on some of these awesome deals. Got a great partner over there has got a network experience as well. What is the big aha moment here for the industry? Because it's not your classic enterprise startups anymore. They have multiple things going on and some of the winners are not even known. They come out of nowhere and they connect to enterprise and get the lucrative positions and can create a moat and value. Like out of nowhere, it's not the old way of like going to the airport and doing an RFP and going through the stringent requirements, and then you're in, you get to win the lucrative contract and you're in. Not anymore, that seems to have changed. What's your take on this 'cause people are trying to crack the code here and sometimes you don't have to be well-known. >> Yeah, well, thank goodness the game has changed 'cause that old thing was (indistinct) So I for one don't miss it. There was some modernization movement in the enterprise and the modern enterprise is built on data powered by AI infrastructure. That's an agile workplace. All three of those things are really transformational. There's big investments being made by enterprises, a lot of receptivity and openness to technology to enable all those agendas, and that translates to good prospects for startups. So I think as far as my career goes, I've never seen a more positive or fertile ground for startups in terms of penetrating enterprise, it doesn't mean it's easy to do, but you have a receptive audience on the other side and that hasn't necessarily always been the case. >> Yeah, I got to ask you, I know that you're a big sailor and your family and Franks Lubens also has a boat and sailing metaphor is always good to have 'cause you got to have a race that's being run and they have tactics. And this game that we're in now, you see the successes, there's investment thesises, and then there's also actually bets. And I want to get your thoughts on this because a lot of enterprises are trying to figure out how to evaluate startups and starts also can make the wrong bet. They could sail to the wrong continent and be in the wrong spot. So how do you pick the winners and how should enterprises understand how to pick winners too? >> Yeah, well, one of the real important things right now that enterprise is facing startups are learning how to do and so learning how to leverage product led growth dynamics in selling to the enterprise. And so product led growth has certainly always been important consumer facing companies. And then there's a few enterprise facing companies, early ones that cracked the code, as you said. And some of these examples are so old, if you think about, like the ones that people will want to talk about them and talk about Classy and want to talk about Twilio and these were of course are iconic companies that showed the way for others. But even before that, folks like Solar Winds, they'd go to market model, clearly product red, bottom stuff. Back then we didn't even have those words to talk about it. And then some of the examples are so enormous if think about them like the one right in front of your face, like AWS. (laughing) Pretty good PLG, (indistinct) but it targeted builders, it targeted developers and flipped over the way you think about enterprise infrastructure, as a result some how every company, even if they're harnessing relatively conventional sales and marketing motion, and you think about product led growth as a way to kick that motion off. And so it's not really an either word even more We might think OPLJ, that means there's no sales keep one company not true, but here's a way to set the table so that you can very efficiently use your sales and marketing resources, only have the most attractive targets and ones that are really (indistinct) >> I love the product led growth. I got to ask you because in the networking days, I remember the term inevitability was used being nested in a solution that they're just going to Cisco off router and a firewall is one you can unplug and replace with another vendor. Cisco you'd have to go through no switching costs were huge. So when you get it to the Cloud, how do you see the competitiveness? Because we were riffing on this with Ali, from Databricks where the lock-in might be value. The more value provider is the lock-in. Is their nestedness? Is their intimate ability as a competitive advantage for some of these starts? How do you look at that? Because startups, they're using open source. They want to have a land position in an enterprise, but how do they create that sustainable competitive advantage going forward? Because again, this is what you do. You bet on ones that you can see that could establish a model whatever we want to call it, but a competitive advantage and ongoing nested position. >> Sometimes it has to do with data, John, and so you mentioned Snowflake a couple of times here, a big part of Snowflake's strategy is what they now call the data cloud. And one of the reasons you go there is not to just be able to process data, to actually get access to it, exchange with the partners. And then that of course is a great reason for the customers to come to the Snowflake platform. And so the more data it gets more customers, it gets more data, the whole thing start spinning in the right direction. That's a really big example, but all of these startups that are using ML in a fundamental way, applying it in a novel way, the data modes are really important. So getting to the right data sources and training on it, and then putting it to work so that you can see that in this process better and doing this earlier on that scale. That's a big part of success. Another company that I work with is a good example that I call (indistinct) which works in sales technology space, really crushing it in terms of building better sales organizations both at performance level, in terms of the intelligence level, and just overall revenue attainment using ML, and using novel data sources, like the previously lost data or phone calls or Zoom calls as you already know. So I think the data advantages are really big. And smart startups are thinking through it early. >> It's interest-- >> And they're planning by the way, not to ramble on too much, but they're betting that PLG strategy. So their land option is designed not just to be an interesting way to gain usage, but it's also a way to gain access to data that then enables the expand in a component. >> That is a huge call-out point there, I was going to ask another question, but I think that is the key I see. It's a new go to market in a way. product led with that kind of approach gets you a beachhead and you get a little position, you get some data that is a cloud model, it means variable, whatever you want to call it variable value proposition, value proof, or whatever, getting that data and reiterating it. So it brings up the whole philosophical question of okay, product led growth, I love that with product led growth of data, I get that. Remember the old platform versus a tool? That's the way buyers used to think. How has that changed? 'Cause now almost, this conversation throws out the whole platform thing, but isn't like a platform. >> It looks like it's all. (laughs) you can if it is a platform, though to do that you can reveal that later, but you're looking for adoption, so if it's down stock product, you're looking for adoption by like developers or DevOps people or SOEs, and they're trying to solve a problem, and they want rapid gratification. So they don't want to have an architectural boomimg, placed in front of them. And if it's up stock product and application, then it's a user or the business or whatever that is, is adopting the application. And again, they're trying to solve a very specific problem. You need instant and immediate obvious time and value. And now you have a ticket to the dance and build on that and maybe a platform strategy can gradually take shape. But you know who's not in this conversation is the CIO, it's like, "I'm always the last to know." >> That's the CISO though. And they got him there on the firing lines. CISOs are buying tools like it's nobody's business. They need everything. They'll buy anything or you go meet with sand, they'll buy it. >> And you make it sound so easy. (laughing) We do a lot of security investment if only (indistinct) (laughing) >> I'm a little bit over the top, but CISOs are under a lot of pressure. I would talk to the CISO at Capital One and he was saying that he's on Amazon, now he's going to another cloud, not as a hedge, but he doesn't want to focus development teams. So he's making human resource decisions as well. Again, back to what IT used to be back in the old days where you made a vendor decision, you built around it. So again, clouds play that way. I see that happening. But the question is that I think you nailed this whole idea of cross hairs on the target persona, because you got to know who you are and then go to the market. So if you know you're a problem solving and the lower in the stack, do it and get a beachhead. That's a strategy, you can do that. You can't try to be the platform and then solve a problem at the same time. So you got to be careful. Is that what you were getting at? >> Well, I think you just understand what you're trying to achieve in that line of notion. And how those dynamics work and you just can't drag it out. And they could make it too difficult. Another company I work with is a very strategic cloud data platform. It's a (indistinct) on systems. We're not trying to foist that vision though (laughs) or not adopters today. We're solving some thorny problems with them in the short term, rapid time to value operational needs in scale. And then yeah, once they found success with (indistinct) there's would be an opportunity to be increasing the platform, and an obstacle for those customers. But we're not talking about that. >> Well, Peter, I appreciate you taking the time and coming out of a board meeting, I know that you're super busy and I really appreciate you making time for us. I know you've got an impressive partner in (indistinct) who's a former Sequoia, but Redback Networks part of that company over the years, you guys are doing extremely well, even a unique investment thesis. I'd like you to put the plug in for the firm. I think you guys have a good approach. I like what you guys are doing. You're humble, you don't brag a lot, but you make a lot of great investments. So could you take them in to explain what your investment thesis is and then how that relates to how an enterprise is making their investment thesis? >> Yeah, yeah, for sure. Well, the concept that I described earlier that the modern enterprise movement as a workplace built on data powered by AI. That's what we're trying to work with founders to enable. And also we're investing in companies that build the products and services that enable that modern enterprise to exist. And we do it from very early stages, but with a longterm outlook. So we'll be leading series and series, rounds of investment but staying deeply involved, both operationally financially throughout the whole life cycle of the company. And then we've done that a bunch of times, our goal is always the big independent public company and they don't always make it but enough for them to have it all be worthwhile. An interesting special case of this, and by the way, I think it intersects with some of startup showcase here is in the life sciences. And I know you were highlighting a lot of healthcare websites and deals, and that's a vertical where to disrupt tremendous impact of data both new data availability and new ways to put it to use. I know several of my partners are very focused on that. They call it bio-X data. It's a transformation all on its own. >> That's awesome. And I think that the reason why we're focusing on these verticals is if you have a cloud horizontal scale view and vertically specialized with machine learning, every vertical is impacted by data. It's so interesting that I think, first start, I was probably best time to be a cloud startup right now. I really am bullish on it. So I appreciate you taking the time Peter to come in again from your board meeting, popping out. Thanks for-- (indistinct) Go back in and approve those stock options for all the employees. Yeah, thanks for coming on. Appreciate it. >> All right, thank you John, it's a pleasure. >> Okay, Peter Wagner, Premier VC, very humble Wing.VC is a great firm. Really respect them. They do a lot of great investing investments, Snowflake, and we have Dave Vellante back who knows a lot about Snowflake's been covering like a blanket and Sarbjeet Johal. Cloud Influencer friend of the CUBE. Cloud commentator and cloud experience built clouds, runs clouds now invests. So V. Dave, thanks for coming back on. You heard Peter Wagner at Wing VC. These guys have their roots in networking, which networking back in the day was, V. Dave. You remember the internet Cisco days, remember Cisco, Wellfleet routers. I think Peter invested in Arrow Point, remember Arrow Point, that was about in the 495 belt where you were. >> Lynch's company. >> That was Chris Lynch's company. I think, was he a sales guy there? (indistinct) >> That was his first big hit I think. >> All right, well guys, let's wrap this up. We've got a great program here. Sarbjeet, thank you for coming on. >> No worries. Glad to be here todays. >> Hey, Sarbjeet. >> First of all, really appreciate the Twitter activity lately on the commentary, the observability piece on Jeremy Burton's launch, Dave was phenomenal, but Peter was talking about this dynamic and I think ties this cracking the code thing together, which is there's a product led strategy that feels like a platform, but it's also a tool. In other words, it's not mutually exclusive, the old methods thrown out the window. Land in an account, know what problem you're solving. If you're below the stack, nail it, get data and go from there. If you're a process improvement up the stack, you have to much more of a platform longer-term sale, more business oriented, different motions, different mechanics. What do you think about that? What's your reaction? >> Yeah, I was thinking about this when I was listening to some of the startups pitching, if you will, or talking about what they bring to the table in this cloud scale or cloud era, if you will. And there are tools, there are applications and then they're big monolithic platforms, if you will. And then they're part of the ecosystem. So I think the companies need to know where they play. A startup cannot be platform from the get-go I believe. Now many aspire to be, but they have to start with tooling. I believe in, especially in B2B side of things, and then go into the applications, one way is to go into the application area, if you will, like a very precise use cases for certain verticals and stuff like that. And other parties that are going into the platform, which is like horizontal play, if you will, in technology. So I think they have to understand their age, like how old they are, how new they are, how small they are, because when their size matter when you are procuring as a big business, procuring your technology vendors size matters and the economic viability matters and their proximity to other windows matter as well. So I think we'll jump into that in other discussions later, but I think that's key, as you said. >> I would agree with that. I would phrase it in my mind, somewhat differently from Sarbjeet which is you have product led growth, and that's your early phase and you get product market fit, you get product led growth, and then you expand and there are many, many examples of this, and that's when you... As part of your team expansion strategy, you're going to get into the platform discussion. There's so many examples of that. You take a look at Ali Ghodsi today with what's happening at Databricks, Snowflake is another good example. They've started with product led growth. And then now they're like, "Okay, we've got to expand the team." Okta is another example that just acquired zero. That's about building out the platform, versus more of a point product. And there's just many, many examples of that, but you cannot to your point, very hard to start with a platform. Arm did it, but that was like a one in a million chance. >> It's just harder, especially if it's new and it's not operationalized yet. So one of the things Dave that we've observed the Cloud is some of the best known successes where nobody's not known at all, database we've been covering from the beginning 'cause we were close to that movement when they came out of Berkeley. But they still were misunderstood and they just started generating revenue in only last year. So again, only a few years ago, zero software revenue, now they're approaching a billion dollars. So it's not easy to make these vendor selections anymore. And if you're new and you don't have someone to operate it or your there's no department and the departments changing, that's another problem. These are all like enterprisey problems. What's your thoughts on that, Dave? >> Well, I think there's a big discussion right now when you've been talking all day about how should enterprise think about startups and think about most of these startups they're software companies and software is very capital efficient business. At the same time, these companies are raising hundreds of millions, sometimes over a billion dollars before they go to IPO. Why is that? A lot of it's going to promotion. I look at it as... And there's a big discussion going on but well, maybe sales can be more efficient and more direct and so forth. I really think it comes down to the golden rule. Two things really mattered in the early days in the startup it's sales and engineering. And writers should probably say engineering and sales and start with engineering. And then you got to figure out your go to market. Everything else is peripheral to those two and you don't get those two things right, you struggle. And I think that's what some of these successful startups are proving. >> Sarbjeet, what's your take on that point? >> Could you repeat the point again? Sorry, I lost-- >> As cloud scale comes in this whole idea of competing, the roles are changing. So look at IOT, look at the Edge, for instance, you got all kinds of new use cases that no one actually knows is a problem to solve. It's just pure opportunity. So there's no one's operational I could have a product, but it don't know we can buy it yet. It's a problem. >> Yeah, I think the solutions have to be point solutions and the startups need to focus on the practitioners, number one, not the big buyers, not the IT, if you will, but the line of business, even within that sphere, like just focus on the practitioners who are going to use that technology. I talked to, I think it wasn't Fiddler, no, it was CoreLogics. I think that story was great today earlier in how they kind of struggle in the beginning, they were trying to do a big bang approach as a startup, but then they almost stumbled. And then they found their mojo, if you will. They went to Don the market, actually, that's a very classic theory of disruption, like what we study from Harvard School of Business that you go down the market, go to the non-consumers, because if you're trying to compete head to head with big guys. Because most of the big guys have lot of feature and functionality, especially at the platform level. And if you're trying to innovate in that space, you have to go to the practitioners and solve their core problems and then learn and expand kind of thing. So I think you have to focus on practitioners a lot more than the traditional oracle buyers. >> Sarbjeet, we had a great thread last night in Twitter, on observability that you started. And there's a couple of examples there. Chaos searches and relatively small company right now, they just raised them though. And they're part of this star showcase. And they could've said, "Hey, we're going to go after Splunk." But they chose not to. They said, "Okay, let's kind of disrupt the elk stack and simplify that." Another example is a company observed, you've mentioned Jeremy Burton's company, John. They're focused really on SAS companies. They're not going after initially these complicated enterprise deals because they got to get it right or else they'll get churn, and churn is that silent killer of software companies. >> The interesting other company that was on the showcase was Tetra Science. I don't know if you noticed that one in the life science track, and again, Peter Wagner pointed out the life science. That's an under recognized in the press vertical that's exploding. Certainly during the pandemic you saw it, Tetra science is an R&D cloud, Dave, R&D data cloud. So pharmaceuticals, they need to do their research. So the pandemic has brought to life, this now notion of tapping into data resources, not just data lakes, but like real deal. >> Yeah, you and Natalie and I were talking about that this morning and that's one of the opportunities for R&D and you have all these different data sources and yeah, it's not just about the data lake. It's about the ecosystem that you're building around them. And I see, it's really interesting to juxtapose what Databricks is doing and what Snowflake is doing. They've got different strategies, but they play a part there. You can see how ecosystems can build that system. It's not one company is going to solve all these problems. It's going to really have to be connections across these various companies. And that's what the Cloud enables and ecosystems have all this data flowing that can really drive new insights. >> And I want to call your attention to a tweet Sarbjeet you wrote about Splunk's earnings and they're data companies as well. They got Teresa Carlson there now AWS as the president, working with Doug, that should change the game a little bit more. But there was a thread of the neath there. Andy Thry says to replies to Dave you or Sarbjeet, you, if you're on AWS, they're a fine solution. The world doesn't just revolve around AWS, smiley face. Well, a lot of it does actually. So (laughing) nice point, Andy. But he brings up this thing and Ali brought it up too, Hybrid now is a new operating system for what now Edge does. So we got Mobile World Congress happening this month in person. This whole Telco 5G brings up a whole nother piece of the Cloud puzzle. Jeff Barr pointed out in his keynote, Dave. Guys, I want to get your reaction. The Edge now is... I'm calling it the super Edge because it's not just Edge as we know it before. You're going to have these pops, these points of presence that are going to have wavelength as your spectrum or whatever they have. I think that's the solution for Azure. So you're going to have all this new cloud power for low latency applications. Self-driving delivery VR, AR, gaming, Telemetry data from Teslas, you name it, it's happening. This is huge, what's your thoughts? Sarbjeet, we'll start with you. >> Yeah, I think Edge is like bound to happen. And for many reasons, the volume of data is increasing. Our use cases are also expanding if you will, with the democratization of computer analysis. Specialization of computer, actually Dave wrote extensively about how Intel and other chip players are gearing up for that future if you will. Most of the inference in the AI world will happen in the field close to the workloads if you will, that can be mobility, the self-driving car that can be AR, VR. It can be healthcare. It can be gaming, you name it. Those are the few use cases, which are in the forefront and what alarm or use cases will come into the play I believe. I've said this many times, Edge, I think it will be dominated by the hyperscalers, mainly because they're building their Metro data centers now. And with a very low latency in the Metro areas where the population is, we're serving the people still, not the machines yet, or the empty areas where there is no population. So wherever the population is, all these big players are putting their data centers there. And I think they will dominate the Edge. And I know some Edge lovers. (indistinct) >> Edge huggers. >> Edge huggers, yeah. They don't like the hyperscalers story, but I think that's the way were' going. Why would we go backwards? >> I think you're right, first of all, I agree with the hyperscale dying you look at the top three clouds right now. They're all in the Edge, Hardcore it's a huge competitive battleground, Dave. And I think the missing piece, that's going to be uncovered at Mobile Congress. Maybe they'll miss it this year, but it's the developer traction, whoever wins the developer market or wins the loyalty, winning over the market or having adoption. The applications will drive the Edge. >> And I would add the fourth cloud is Alibaba. Alibaba is actually bigger than Google and they're crushing it as well. But I would say this, first of all, it's popular to say, "Oh not everything's going to move into the Cloud, John, Dave, Sarbjeet." But the fact is that AWS they're trend setter. They are crushing it in terms of features. And you'd look at what they're doing in the plumbing with Annapurna. Everybody's following suit. So you can't just ignore that, number one. Second thing is what is the Edge? Well, the edge is... Where's the logical place to process the data? That's what the Edge is. And I think to your point, both Sarbjeet and John, the Edge is going to be won by developers. It's going to be one by programmability and it's going to be low cost and really super efficient. And most of the data is going to stay at the Edge. And so who is in the best position to actually create that? Is it going to be somebody who was taking an x86 box and throw it over the fence and give it a fancy name with the Edge in it and saying, "Here's our Edge box." No, that's not what's going to win the Edge. And so I think first of all it's huge, it's wide open. And I think where's the innovation coming from? I agree with you it's the hyperscalers. >> I think the developers as John said, developers are the kingmakers. They build the solutions. And in that context, I always talk about the skills gravity, a lot of people are educated in certain technologies and they will keep using those technologies. Their proximity to that technology is huge and they don't want to learn something new. So as humans we just tend to go what we know how to use it. So from that front, I usually talk with consumption economics of cloud and Edge. It has to focus on the practitioners. And in this case, practitioners are developers because you're just cooking up those solutions right now. We're not serving that in huge quantity right now, but-- >> Well, let's unpack that Sarbjeet, let's unpack that 'cause I think you're right on the money on that. The consumption of the tech and also the consumption of the application, the end use and end user. And I think the reason why hyperscalers will continue to dominate besides the fact that they have all the resource and they're going to bring that to the Edge, is that the developers are going to be driving the applications at the Edge. So if you're low latency Edge, that's going to open up new applications, not just the obvious ones I did mention, gaming, VR, AR, metaverse and other things that are obvious. There's going to be non-obvious things that are going to be huge that are going to come out from the developers. But the Cloud native aspect of the hyperscalers, to me is where the scales are tipping, let me explain. IT was built to build a supply resource to the businesses who were writing business applications. Mostly driven by IBM in the mainframe in the old days, Dave, and then IT became IT. Telcos have been OT closed, "This is our thing, that's it." Now they have to open up. And the Cloud native technologies is the fastest way to value. And I think that paths, Sarbjeet is going to be defined by this new developer and this new super Edge concept. So I think it's going to be wide open. I don't know what to say. I can't guess, but it's going to be creative. >> Let me ask you a question. You said years ago, data's new development kit, does low code and no code to Sarbjeet's point, change the equation? In other words, putting data in the hands of those OT professionals, those practitioners who have the context. Does low-code and no-code enable, more of those protocols? I know it's a bromide, but the citizen developer, and what impact does that have? And who's in the best position? >> Well, I think that anything that reduces friction to getting stuff out there that can be automated, will increase the value. And then the question is, that's not even a debate. That's just fact that's going to be like rent, massive rise. Then the issue comes down to who has the best asset? The software asset that's eating the world or the tower and the physical infrastructure. So if the physical infrastructure aka the Telcos, can't generate value fast enough, in my opinion, the private equity will come in and take it over, and then refactor that business model to take advantage of the over the top software model. That to me is the big stare down competition between the Telco world and this new cloud native, whichever one yields in valley is going to blink first, if you say. And I think the Cloud native wins this one hands down because the assets are valuable, but only if they enable the new model. If the old model tries to hang on to the old hog, the old model as the Edge hugger, as Sarbjeet says, they'll just going to slowly milk that cow dry. So it's like, it's over. So to me, they have to move. And I think this Mobile World Congress day, we will see, we will be looking for that. >> Yeah, I think that in the Mobile World Congress context, I think Telcos should partner with the hyperscalers very closely like everybody else has. And they have to cave in. (laughs) I usually say that to them, like the people came in IBM tried to fight and they cave in. Other second tier vendors tried to fight the big cloud vendors like top three or four. And then they cave in. okay, we will serve our stuff through your cloud. And that's where all the buyers are congregating. They're going to buy stuff along with the skills gravity, the feature proximity. I've got another term I'll turn a coin. It matters a lot when you're doing one thing and you want to do another thing when you're doing all this transactional stuff and regular stuff, and now you want to do data science, where do you go? You go next to it, wherever you have been. Your skills are in that same bucket. And then also you don't have to write a new contract with a new vendor, you just go there. So in order to serve, this is a lesson for startups as well. You need to prepare yourself for being in the Cloud marketplaces. You cannot go alone independently to fight. >> Cloud marketplace is going to replace procurement, for sure, we know that. And this brings up the point, Dave, we talked about years ago, remember on the CUBE. We said, there's going to be Tier two clouds. I used that word in quotes cause nothing... What does it even mean Tier two. And we were talking about like Amazon, versus Microsoft and Google. We set at the time and Alibaba but they're in China, put that aside for a second, but the big three. They're going to win it all. And they're all going to be successful to a relative terms, but whoever can enable that second tier. And it ended up happening, Snowflake is that example. As is Databricks as is others. So Google and Microsoft as fast as they can replicate the success of AWS by enabling someone to build their business on their cloud in a way that allows the customer to refactor their business will win. They will win most of the lion's share my opinion. So I think that applies to the Edge as well. So whoever can come in and say... Whichever cloud says, "I'm going to enable the next Snowflake, the next enterprise solution." I think takes it. >> Well, I think that it comes back... Every conversation coming back to the data. And if you think about the prevailing way in which we treated data with the exceptions of the two data driven companies in their quotes is as we've shoved all the data into some single repository and tried to come up with a single version of the truth and it's adjudicated by a centralized team, with hyper specialized roles. And then guess what? The line of business, there's no context for the business in that data architecture or data Corpus, if you will. And then the time it takes to go from idea for a data product or data service commoditization is way too long. And that's changing. And the winners are going to be the ones who are able to exploit this notion of leaving data where it is, the point about data gravity or courting a new term. I liked that, I think you said skills gravity. And then enabling the business lines to have access to their own data teams. That's exactly what Ali Ghodsi, he was saying this morning. And really having the ability to create their own data products without having to go bow down to an ivory tower. That is an emerging model. All right, well guys, I really appreciate the wrap up here, Dave and Sarbjeet. I'd love to get your final thoughts. I'll just start by saying that one of the highlights for me was the luminary guests size of 15 great companies, the luminary guests we had from our community on our keynotes today, but Ali Ghodsi said, "Don't listen to what everyone's saying in the press." That was his position. He says, "You got to figure out where the puck's going." He didn't say that, but I'm saying, I'm paraphrasing what he said. And I love how he brought up Sky Cloud. I call it Sky net. That's an interesting philosophy. And then he also brought up that machine learning auto ML has got to be table stakes. So I think to me, that's the highlight walk away. And the second one is this idea that the enterprises have to have a new way to procure and not just the consumption, but some vendor selection. I think it's going to be very interesting as value can be proved with data. So maybe the procurement process becomes, here's a beachhead, here's a little bit of data. Let me see what it can do. >> I would say... Again, I said it was this morning, that the big four have given... Last year they spent a hundred billion dollars more on CapEx. To me, that's a gift. In so many companies, especially focusing on trying to hang onto the legacy business. They're saying, "Well not everything's going to move to the Cloud." Whatever, the narrative should change to, "Hey, thank you for that gift. We're now going to build value on top of the Cloud." Ali Ghodsi laid that out, how Databricks is doing it. And it's clearly what Snowflake's new with the data cloud. It basically a layer that abstracts all that underlying complexity and add value on top. Eventually going out to the Edge. That's a value added model that's enabled by the hyperscalers. And that to me, if I have to evaluate where I'm going to place my bets as a CIO or IT practitioner, I'm going to look at who are the ones that are actually embracing that investment that's been made and adding value on top in a way that can drive my data-driven, my digital business or whatever buzzword you want to throw on. >> Yeah, I think we were talking about the startups in today's sessions. I think for startups, my advice is to be as close as you can be to hyperscalers and anybody who awards them, they will cave in at the end of the day, because that's where the whole span of gravity is. That's what the innovation gravity is, everybody's gravitating towards that. And I would say quite a few times in the last couple of years that the rate of innovation happening in a non-cloud companies, when I talk about non-cloud means are not public companies. I think it's like diminishing, if you will, as compared to in cloud, there's a lot of innovation. The Cloud companies are not paying by power people anymore. They have all sophisticated platforms and leverage those, and also leverage the marketplaces and leverage their buyers. And the key will be how you highlight yourself in that cloud market place if you will. It's like in a grocery store where your product is placed and you have to market around it, and you have to have a good story telling team in place as well after you do the product market fit. I think that's a key. I think just being close to the Cloud providers, that's the way to go for startups. >> Real, real quick. Each of you talk about what it takes to crack the code for the enterprise in the modern era now. Dave, we'll start with you. What's it take? (indistinct) >> You got to have it be solving a problem that is 10X better at one 10th a cost of anybody else, if you're a small company, that rule number one. Number two is you obviously got to get product market fit. You got to then figure out. And I think, and again, you're in your early phases, you have to be almost processed builders, figure out... Your KPIs should all be built around retention. How do I define customer success? How do I keep customers and how do I make them loyal so that I know that my cost of acquisition is going to be at least one-third or lower than my lifetime value of that customer? So you've got to nail that. And then once you nail that, you've got to codify that process in the next phase, which really probably gets into your platform discussion. And that's really where you can start to standardize and scale and figure out your go to market and the relationship between marketing spend and sales productivity. And then when you get that, then you got to move on to figure out your Mot. Your Mot might just be a brand. It might be some secret sauce, but more often than not though, it's going to be the relationship that you build. And I think you've got to think about those phases and in today's world, you got to move really fast. Sarbjeet, real quick. What's the secret to crack the code? >> I think the secret to crack the code is partnership and alliances. As a small company selling to the bigger enterprises, the vendors size will be one of the big objections. Even if they don't say it, it's on the back of their mind, "What if these guys disappear tomorrow what would we do if we pick this technology?" And another thing is like, if you're building on the left side, which is the developer side, not on the right side, which is the operations or production side, if you will, you have to understand the sales cycles are longer on the right side and left side is easier to get to, but that's why we see a lot more startups. And on the left side of your DevOps space, if you will, because it's easier to sell to practitioners and market to them and then show the value correctly. And also understand that on the left side, the developers are very know how hungry, on the right side people are very cost-conscious. So understanding the traits of these different personas, if you will buyers, it will, I think set you apart. And as Dave said, you have to solve a problem, focus on practitioners first, because you're small. You have to solve political problems very well. And then you can expand. >> Well, guys, I really appreciate the time. Dave, we're going to do more of these, Sarbjeet we're going to do more of these. We're going to add more community to it. We're going to add our community rooms next time. We're going to do these quarterly and try to do them as more frequently, we learned a lot and we still got a lot more to learn. There's a lot more contribution out in the community that we're going to tap into. Certainly the CUBE Club as we call it, Dave. We're going to build this actively around Cloud. This is another 20 years. The Edge brings us more life with Cloud, it's really exciting. And again, enterprise is no longer an enterprise, it's just the world now. So great companies here, the next Databricks, the next IPO. The next big thing is in this list, Dave. >> Hey, John, we'll see you in Barcelona. Looking forward to that. Sarbjeet, I know in a second half, we're going to run into each other. So (indistinct) thank you John. >> Trouble has started. Great talking to you guys today and have fun in Barcelona and keep us informed. >> Thanks for coming. I want to thank Natalie Erlich who's in Rome right now. She's probably well past her bedtime, but she kicked it off and emceeing and hosting with Dave and I for this AW startup showcase. This is batch two episode two day. What do we call this? It's like a release so that the next 15 startups are coming. So we'll figure it out. (laughs) Thanks for watching everyone. Thanks. (bright music)

live from Las Vegas Nevada it's the cute covering knowledge 15 brought to you by service now okay hello everyone we are live for day two of coverage this is the cube our flagship program we go out to the events and extract the signal noise we go over here live in service now's knowledge 15 hashtag no 15 you want to join the conversation we have a back channel live chat on crowd chat new application which I'm excited Dave to show the guys from Sarah's neck as they love good software so but a crowd shot net / no 15 and see the conversation ask questions join our virtual social experience and we'll be happy to address that with your day to coverage live in Las Vegas out of three full days yesterday was a great day we had Frank sloop enough CEO opening up the day really laying down and and in clarifying the future of service now certainly they took a bath on the the stock last week on their earnings still in throwing off a lot of lot of cash great platform business great buying opportunity as Dave and I were speculating and ended the day with John Cleese famous actor writer comedian who we had some fun we try to bring a little bit of Jon Stewart a little bit of Jimmy Fallon I'm jump Road Dave vellante Dave what you think about yes that your laptop working parts of my lap water here I've lost my return key in my M so what you think John Cleese k the holy grail of our of our of our program yesterday he was great I mean we had a nice little bit going on there all ad lib just for the record folks he was not pissed he was totally happy at a great time but was all ad-lib he challenged us on the cube and it was great seeing after we were nervous and he's a pro we couldn't even hold a candle to his performance David it was great seeing him afterwards he came up to us yellow hey mr. classy came up and high-five and a smiling laughing it was great smart guy what you think of the inter very opinionated I thought the interview was great I mean it was weird but it was great I top guest top test of six years he's on a great show we had about you know 50 people behind that's all watching so it was really a lot of fun again but let's get back to the event here day two well you know another top guest coming up today is Fred ludie I think you're really going to enjoy interviewing and you heard him on the keynote John he was talking about the new development platform the new UI the new mobile app all that he was geeking out on all the technologies a lot of things that you're very familiar with borrowing from you know real-time geolocation leveraging the camera in the mobile app a lot of technologies borrow from Facebook and Twitter and a whole that whole real-time crowd a lot of stuff that that that crowd chat uses I know you talk about it all the time angularjs and all these kind of things that people don't understand our new crowd chat application go to crouch at that poke around look at the live one but what you'll notice on that app is one hundred percent as synchronous we use cutting-edge technologies like bootstrap we use angularjs and our new crowd pages coming out we have knowed Java on the backend for analytics really a cross-section of all the different language but node bootstrap angular these are the technologies that truly make it a singer's Facebook by the way is not a synchronous you've got to load the page having a synchronous communications loose from WebSockets days of web browser to fully available data real-time so near real-time is the holy grail today and basically instant is going to be defensive state-of-the-art today in software development that's what service now is showing on the stage and again a lot of it resonated because I hear you talking about all the time and I see it I see the green dot I see the presence I see the real-time nature and that's really what today's modern apps are all about and we'll talk about that today in detail what's under the hood for service now and again I can reiterate what a great software platform service now has I am super impressed the people here a passion about what they do Dave and I say you know we're going to get with Fred and here the founder story the prot chief product officer and all his folks because what they're building is the future generation Frank's Ludeman is a world-class CEO we heard the story of how he was hired you know Fred Letty said his keynote I wake up every day and I want to write code I don't want to be the CEO they hired Frank's luqman built a great business but not only do they have great business fundamentals and how they're executing their business plan Dave they have a great product leadership team the founder stays around every successful company that I talked to and i can highlight you look at them you name them all the ones that are the really sustainable companies Dave the founder stays around this is a lesson that the top VCS and Silicon Valley and around the world are now paying attention to is do not boot the founders out of the company marc andreessen with injuries Horowitz absolutely adamant founder friendly means growth and sustainability the old days of kick the founder out don't work ServiceNow is a great case study of a company that has grown from a seed idea go to market one booth at a show get some customers get some funding have a grade VC build a great product and continually to go to the next level and I think that's the story for us today what's the next level for service now what is that and you're going to see two major themes cloud born in the cloud capabilities asynchronous real-time presidents to enterprise grade enterprise-grade means you can't you can be born in the cloud and enterprise grade that's the Holy Grail Dave that is the key question people ask can you be enterprise-grade can you be agile can you have integrated stacks can you do stuff in real time and do it at a speed and at a scale that's the premise of the cloud and service now is delivering that so even my take on that so I mean you're talking about a cool tech behind it and there's a whole nother story here and Fred muddy and Dave right took us down memory lane today you know sort of the history of the company and going back to the original first knowledge and San Diego showed some pictures that was all fine and well and good but the fact is the piece that I want to add to what you just said is the customer angle I treated out yesterday Frank's lubin has made a career and identifying pain points and resolving those pain points essentially selling aspirin is what I call it and so that's what service now is doing there resolving the pain points within organizations it was interesting to note Dave right and Fred Lunney talked about how in 2008 when the economy was collapsing and Sequoia Capital you remember John put out that famous memo you better you hunker down conserve cash and Fred ludie showed the audience his counterpoint and basically it makes sense to me because what happened in 2008-2009 is people said let's let's start moving to the cloud more aggressively let's ship shift capex to op X and let's try to save money and service now is one of those technologies that really you know is all about saving money we kind of lived through that John right we were the open source version of information and so we have tons of demand around that time for our content service now in a whole different world saw uptick in demand and so they are really out solving customer problems dealing with process problems we're now seeing sort of the next wave the next evolution of that around email and how email is used as a workflow management system and is ineffective at that the hole forms business going to mobile and you saw today in the mobile apps it wasn't forms oriented it wasn't forms front and center forms is still there but it wasn't all about the forms it was all about the mobile experience so they're transitioning from this sort of forms based automation to one that's more mobile optimized that's something to talk to Fred yeah I think I think which day was your pointing out is is that the highlight of during a crisis at Fred Letty pointed out in OA at a critical inflection point of the company Sequoia Capital issued out a memo to all their portfolio come a little bit inside baseball but important to note that they said bunker down hunker down filled a bunker hoard your cash service now and this is where I love this company right they wrote a counter memo to their customers and the venture has a no no this is the winds are shifting we see an opportunity because their customers were going under or having financial problems they shifted their product value proposition to saving cash consolidation and creating an opportunity out of the crisis and I think this is the opportunity with cloud as you pointed out you seeing a transformation in workflows you're seeing a transformation in business process that is changing the game in terms of you know time to value cost structures and then the economics that's the promise of the cloud so again the companies that can take advantage of the times of the shifts and the inflection point because what's happening is the shift is happening and as an inflection point so yeah I think everybody talks about and it's so overused now seventy percent of the money that I t spends is on on keeping the lights on and and only thirty percent is on innovation I like to look it a little differently I like to break it down when i had my cio consultancy with floyer we used to consult and try to get the others to think about putting their portfolio into three categories their application portfolio in the project portfolio running the business growing the business in transforming the business and i think if you think about those things i think servicenow is very transformative and our helping companies run the business differently and grow the business as well so they're sort of fit into all three but they start with transformation and then change the way that people are running the business I think that's a much more effective way to look at that hole 7030 mix and I think service now is changing the way companies work what do you think about service now see earnings are we're out last week EMC report a little bit down VMware blew it away covering for emc you're seeing the big enterprise players service now take a big knife cut on Friday but that's Frank's lubin pointed out there in the long game and they have a platform play and they're throwing up a lot of cash so their cash flow is amazing Wall Street Journal has some articles about this kind of shift that we in a bubble is service now built for the long haul I want your opinion on this Frank subin weighed in on his and I think the software's phenomenal but let's talk about that yeah let's really his wall street not understanding about service so let's recap what happened on Friday service now announced earnings the stock had hit about a 12 billion dollar valuation which is you know sort of the highest valuation roughly that it had hit and people were getting used to service now continuingly continuously beating expectations well they met expectations actually beat by a little they had but they guided lower because of currency headwinds everybody's facing headwinds you saw EMC missed by about fifteen percent and it's you know this week and so all the companies and earnings releases are saying all right we're being more cautious because of currency fluctuations right the dollars getting stronger as a result you're translating international currency back into fewer dollars means less earnings so on an apples-to-apples basis servers now continued to blow it away they grew fifty percent plus but they guided lower they're a little bit more conservative so with the street did is they took about a billion dollars out of the valuation now since then it's come back a little bit it's not not come back to ten points to the loss but i see this john is a very very positive opportunity you said that you call it a buying opportunity i think it probably is you know who knows the markets choppy and maybe maybe you companies like service now that are high flyers you might see them you know up and down evan flow but here's the point and I think you've made this as well they are built for the long term and here's why they they started out in what everybody thought was a very small they've got a 40 to 50 billion dollar total available market that they're going after they're just scratching the surface right now they've got leading-edge technology they're killing the competition and they're growing into new places where typically these types of companies don't go the traditional IT service management folks where are they going they're automating service management not only with an IT but also within HR within finance within legal anything that's service oriented and their billet going after email if it's maybe it's be even bigger than a 40 or 50 billion dollar market so they got a big market they got great tech they got great management so I think there's a lot of room for this company to grow can they go to the collaboration space that's gonna be the question means all about email how much collaborative even ibn about competing with with this with companies like work they went all out HRM well well a CRM a Salesforce i think is a potential big competitor down the road i think they're on a collision course with force calm and Heroku and you know all those app development you know activities that those guys are doing but that's it's early there but I see that yeah damn your point about sales force this is why I think its dangers for sales forces why I think you know maybe we're kind of opening up the kimono here on service now because we're reading the tea leaves but what em what Amazon is done for the cloud and what we're doing with crouched at servicenow is doing for iit meaning they're building integrated technologies for a variety of different use cases that quite frankly it's it's enabling so sales forces cobbling together a bunch of stuff they got chatter I got this and when you put monolithic systems together and try to match them together into quote a you know fake stack that's really not going to work so I think the challenge for the incumbent companies like Salesforce and others is if you cobble together technologies and don't integrate them in there for this new real-time clouded native born in the cloud mentality and have the enterprise grade you will lose some territory so service now is doing both of those and they could take territory very quickly so they're humble saying no no we're not competing I know we got to go but last thing I'll say this frank says ITR our homies that's the Franks lupins you know so it talks about IT and the reason why I see that as a big advantages i T is the one part of the organization that has purview over the entire organization so a single cmdb with nit is very and whoever controls the data will be very interesting so real time having the data having the platform will give you a lot better horizontal platform I love what service now is doing again we're going to go this is our pep in by the way and this is not their messaging but we will probe all the guests Dave we're going to kick off date you this is our intro for day two wall-to-wall coverage when we hear all day here at in Las Vegas with service now nawlins 15 this is the cube I'm John for Dave vellante thanks for watching stay tuned and all day today thats is the cube we'll be right back after this short break

>> wait. >> Okay, We're back. Live a V M. World twenty twelve. I'm John for the founder's silicon angle dot com. This is the Cube silicon angle dot TV's flagship telecast. We go out to the events and extracted signal from the noise CEOs, entrepreneurs, analysts, marketing people, developers, whoever has the signal, we want extract that share that with you. We have a special guest today. Frank's Leutnant is a sea of service. Now again, I'm John Furry. I'm joined my co host >> of Dave Alonso, a wicked bond dog. Frank, Last time we saw Europe on the stage, you had these glasses on the hat. Remember that, Elwood? So, uh, welcome to the Cube. First time on Thank you. Too many of'Em worlds. I'm sure. A little different angle now. Yeah, Service now. Very exciting. Just went public solving a big problem on DH. Added again? Yes. So tell us. How do you feel? >> That's interesting. A lot of people ask me, how did you end up in, you know, in a in an application software tap a category you spent all this time in storage. The reality is that most of my life, you know, being in the application, development, dusting and system management. So this is actually close to my wheelhouse. Stories was actually a pretty good diversion for me. Careerwise >> service now, relatively, you know, not not a household name but solving that problem. Really, There's no system of record for i t. What activities air doing? Whether it's finance, it's whether it's application portfolio project portfolio. You guys were attacking that whole nut with a software service model. I mean, it used to be a lot of point tools to do that. And you guys seem to be having a lot of success bringing that all to the cloud. >> Yeah, the irony is, is that you look at all the corporate functions, you know, finance, sales, marketing HR, I sort of ranks, you know, last or near last in terms of management sophistication, right compared to the other functional areas, because the most mighty organization have to show for themselves. They helped US management system for their work. For right now, they are to keep track of what's running in their their operation, and that service model is typical of infrastructure providers. Right? You see it, you know, with tell coast like looking t you see it with power. You tell these, like PG and E their infrastructure providers first and the service model. It is not particularly compelling, right? So what we tried to dio it's really take it from a D M V style service model standing in line waiting to be helped. Do you want this more like amazon dot com, where I help myself, It's into it. If it's online, it's productive. It's where I want to go. Teo to make requests as well. Let's receive service >> So you're selling primarily to the organization. Who you sell to in the theory is that the CEO is that the project management offices all the above >> as the servicers management is a very well defined center of responsibility in i t organization. So there's always a group of people who is in charge of that that disciplined. They're easy to find, But CEOs are always involved, and the reason is these air very high profile system rollout because everybody in it is an actor or participant, the workflow as well as the broader employee population, the enterprise, touchy systems, So you better believe that people are sensitive about this being a successful practical and it looks more like a neo system. Dan. It does an infrastructure type system >> without the AARP complexity of it. >> Yes, it's it's a mixed >> metaphor, but so So here are your roughly a hundred fifty million dollar company, you know, annualized, you nice market. >> Either way, we've we've guided to about two. Thirty five, >> thirty five this year. Okay, Great. That's >> want to make sure that their investors don't get >> background. We're sorry about that. Es to thirty five, which is why your market cap about three point six billion. I think >> way had about ninety eight percent growth and buildings in the last quarter. So the high growth, obviously it's what drives >> what's driving that. So how big is the business that you guys playing? What's your tan? >> So we think that the tam just for the narrow definition around service management is a is a multi billion dollar opportunity Because of the nature ofthe work flows, we're also expanding into the operations management area. Right? This is this is where HP lives and BMC and IBM and CIA with these very large open view Tivoli Well, because their work flows between services system management are all becoming integrator that used to be suffered spheres. Not anymore. >> And that's an enormous market. >> It i d. C. Thanks. It's about a thirteen fourteen doing dollar market, and then you have the platform is a service opportunity because our customers have just gone wild, building all kinds of spoke applications on a platform just because they could. So >> you kind of betting on the intersection of systems management, operations, management >> and the platform. >> Okay, and it's kind of jump ball, really, with the dynamic of the cloud coming in, isn't it? In terms of the competitive, it's >> Ah, it's interesting because we look another assassin categories like HR marketing. You see a whole host of players you're looking in our category on the only breakout play there has been serviced now way have predominately compete against legacy vendors, people that I just mentioned. So >> you've got some experience doing that I want >> I want to ask you about the discipline side of the market. You guys are public companies, so yeah, you're out there is all exposed and then talk about some of the product directions because out yesterday they were really showcasing the vision within VM where old way a new way, a access APS infrastructure. You know the classic in the old way. New Way, Modern era. We've been calling it in your world. You're actually replacing some pretty old stuff. I mean, I remember back in the late eighties, early nineties health testing people had that's headsets on and, you know, homegrown software developers and quit a lot of this legacy kind of mindset. So first question is, Is that true? Is there still that much baggage in that services business? From an infrastructure standpoint? And the second part, the question is, what's the new stuff that's really disrupting the market? So in the new way, what is the key features that that's happening in the services industry? >> So, you know, I already started to allude to it, right. So you want to evolve that service model from that help death centric DNP style of service experience to one that's on the line looks more consumer style. You know, the way we've learned from Apple and Yahoo and Google and people like that help yourself. If you have a problem at home with your apple TV, you're really gonna try and call Apple know you're going to go online and you find years of communities you get Teo answers ten times faster, that weight and then following these needy old models the way you reference there is an awful lot of that still living in the world off because they're focuses infrastructure, not service. That's change it, right? I mean, CEOs, I read somewhere, have a shelf life of about eighteen months, right? There's incredible impatience and dissatisfaction with how that function is running. It's costing too much money in the service is not exactly to to write home about. People are really ready to move their service malls. >> The largest answer was, Just hire someone else to do it. That was the outsourcing boom, right? So that's still brought problems, right? Legacy. So how is that still in play? So if the notion is okay, outsource it, and then the outsources has some warts on it that's got to be tweaked. What's the new version? Because you know amazon dot com and you know this new environment availability, instant access, the information we don't service etcetera is that changing it >> way believed that the move to cloud computing is really going to change the role of the CIA, all right, because infrastructure is going to become something that's behind Courtney, and it's becoming less of an infrastructure centric job. CEOs and T organizations become Mohr service engineering organizations, people that understand work flows. People understand how to automate work, flows right out. And, you know, I know how to run a database or a network or, you know, all the security dimensions and so on because we're just breaking as an industry. There just isn't enough competency and skill sets for everybody to be confident at the level that we need to be at structure. It's not scaling, right. It's sort of the way telephone switching centers were in the nineteen fifties >> means one of those things to with the CIA. Attention, I'LL get to that later. But now, with big data in real time analytics is more pressure on the service delivery side. As a business driver, you seeing that pressure as well, or is it more? We just gotta fix it now. I got to do it >> Well, nighty organizations in the lift from one crisis to the next, completely event driven, you know we haven't out its were all over it. Trying to restore service on DH. You know, we sort of live that life day in, day out. But I've never changes right So waken get ahead of this game. You know, if we start structuring, you know, the interaction model that we have with our users how we communicate with them. I mean, simple things, right when you were, you haven't out it. It would be helpful if we were able to pull status. You know, every twenty minutes us to what? What we're doing, What's going on. Right? But having infrastructure be ableto push data out? No, like that. Most organizations don't do that. They live pretty much in the dark, >> so share with our audience out there. That's watching. We have a lot of professionals and data scientists and analyst type audience that we've that we've that follows. Looking angle with Yvonne on DH. Some CEOs as well on early adopters share the folks out there. The pitch, How bad is it that their environment and how easy is it to change? It is just a norther. A magnitude sense of is a turnkey. How do you guys roll in? What's he engagement look like? It's not as hard as the things that most people might have the opinion. I don't want to get just ugly. It's painful or is it not painful? Is it quick pop now? Is it like how fast a roll in and out the infrastructure that you >> the's are extraordinarily sticky systems the system that were that we replace >> your systems of the old systems. >> The old systems are on the reason that they've been around for ten, fifteen years. They're very difficult to replace. And if you look at our girls, that's certainly testament to our compelling. The value proposition has been people have said, you know, a pain is becoming unbearable and be the view of the promised Land is looking pretty good, right? So there's both an incentive to change and to move, and secondly, there is something to move towards that is this compelling inspiring. And it really is going to change my game right, because now we tell people said, Look, if you just tryingto get to a snazzier, more modern help desk, we're not your guy, okay? Because we don't find out a compelling vision of the world. We wantto wholesale transform how you deliver service just >> take us to some of those cats you were talking before you came on about your growth tripling inside. But talk about a zoo company, which is a whole nother conversation. We could talk about it yet you have expertise in, but talk more about the customer deployments. You got some fresh funding with the AIPO. You're geared up. You go out to the market place. What are the conversations like, What are some of the stats and one of the conversation with the CIA? >> Well, the CIA is obviously are interested, first and foremost of the transformation of the service model, right? I mean, we have to get Teo service experience that's more reminiscent of people experience on the consumer side. Now we typically have to do that, that an economic equation that's very similar to what they're having right now. They're not interested in spend more. They just want to get completely refreshed, you know, platform for similar amounts of money that they're already spending because Versace, you know, we're not just taking the software, not off the after after table. We're also taking the entire infrastructure, all the operating staff, everything it takes to run that environment becomes ours, right? It's no longer in the I T department, so that looks pretty compelling to them. >> How about some of the numbers in terms of uptake with customers recently? What's the growth rate was? Can you share some numbers? >> Way have about twelve hundred price customers? We had about one hundred twenty seven the last quarter. That's that is a huge number of customers. Tio Tio ad we have. Most of our focus is on global two thousand enterprises. We have about two hundred thirty global two thousand enterprises, and they're all you know who's who names that, that people recognize Starting up Ticket's been been strong. We're running very, very hard to make sure that we have two services infrastructure. Both there's people and infrastructure to be able to accommodate that. >> Well, I'm excited to interview you because I want to ask you kind of more of a personal question. And although we just met for the first time here, your name's been kicked around as kind of a maverick operational executive who knows how to scale organization. So we're in kind of living in an era where the business value focused, whether startups and has been a lot of talk about, you know, the Facebook idea, the young kids under thirty running a billion dollar market gap, companies trying to actually move from hyped to real scale. And Palmer. It's made a comment yesterday kind of dissing Facebook of in terms of the value proposition relative to say, you know, bm where. But the question I want to ask you is, um, what's your success model for scaling an organization on DH for the younger execs out there? And for people who don't know you just chairs up on the camera? What's your philosophy as the repeatable sales, lower cost leverage model? I mean variety of different kind of ingredients. What's the Franks Lukman formula for success and scaling? Bringing a product to market and growing it? >> Well, the first order of business for for a start up venture of any sort is growth. I find that a lot of people come on a business school in trying to balance girl for profitability. Um, that mentality makes no sense to me, right? It's economics. Before accounting, accounting becomes the bastardization of economics, we run our ventures cash on booking their economic concepts, not accounting constructs, right people are trying to show profit prematurely when they can invest that money to grow. We tripled our head count over the last year. We got very far over our skis. No, we're burning a hole in our gas pals but were very clear with investors that look, we are still increasing our productivity for head. Why, when we apply to resource is to grow this franchise Growth expands our multiples, expands valuation. That's what everybody is in the business for, so so sort of summarize. Knowing your question. Most people hold back on growth, and they don't really know why they're not all out trying to drive growth and the reason that growth is so important. You need to be a breakout player. Nobody wants to be the in between player. That's neither fish nor fowl and doesn't become a dominant entity into space that it wants to be in >> and have the financing in the dry powder behind you that you were a venture capital Greylock, which no something into about investing. So that's also important part right? >> Well, you don't. That's why I said to you manage on cash you managed on bookings. Those are the economics in the business essentially, >> and you've been looking up, have some really good finances behind you, trust you who get the concepts and that's key well, continue in the right >> way went public. We also explain to investors Look, this is what we're trying to do, and this is what we need you to buy into. Otherwise, find somebody else's talk. So >> what is the going public affect? You know the perception amongst the CEO's when you chose to list on the way we had them on earlier this week? But how is that affected? The brand perception? >> That was the whole reason for us to go public, right? We didn't need to cash liquidity. Obviously, it's good for employees and investors when I pose fundamentally a branding event. You know, I used the analogy. We went from playing on Saturday to playing on Sunday. You know, all of a sudden you know you're transparent, you know, all the all the thud that gets spread about you by competition. People cannot punch you up on Iand. See what the truth is around your balance sheet. You know how abot your last quarter was? It's been three. I po was tremendous for us from a branding standpoint, >> and you've been known Teo have a reputation of really getting the product in this case, the service, right? And then really getting aggressive on the sales side. Can you talk about what you've done in the sales side? I know you've aggressively hired. >> Yeah, we You know, as I said, we tripled our head count. We went from three shells. Reasons to twelve insight. One year we spread out all over Europe today. This is a ground war. You need an army to fight it. This is not Facebook. We cannot sign up annoying people in a week. It is a business that runs over the ground so you cannot scale and drive growth business unless you have two people to run it. >> And you're selling belly to belly. That right? Absolutely. So you know, >> we're going through the front door of the elevator >> way. Okay, We're getting the hook here. We're getting hooked, but I have to quit final questions. One is just put a plug out there for service's angle dot com that Silicon Angles separate publication. We launched last year, thanks to E m. C. For helping us sponsor that but really dedicated to the new era of services. And there is some disruption. We're excited to cover you guys, so I just wanted to say Go, go check out sources angle. So Franklin asked two questions. One. What's the big disruption in the services business that most people aren't getting right now? General, you know, man and tech on the street, not the insider inside the ropes. So that's the first question. The second question. What's your goals for the year? For the business? >> Well, the interesting thing about the services business is how it's one of these areas that is sort of the least automated. Write. It runs on the concept of institutional knowledge. Phone conversations, informal communications, email and the frontier in service management is that those become software automated structure processes that is not just happening in I t able sticks. It's happening everywhere, right? What do you want to request? Food. You know, from the hotel you knew what a Virgin America, right? You know, request from your seat, something that's just, you know, on an example of how >> that's the story, you know, debate about that. >> That's how it's gonna go, right? So services it's going to become, really that I call the service fabric right? Essentially how thes processes get conducted. So we're super excited because our platform sits right in the middle of that trend and we're going to try and make that trend. >> It's eleven. Platform to the economics are fantastic and no real customs agents were brought up exactly so good margins. >> And it's just >> like the stock immediately. >> It's much more scalable in the district. Disintermediation. You know, all the all the manual effort goes into this. >> Okay, so now I know your public CEO and everything now, so you really can't be as wild as you could have you a private. But what's the outlook for year? Your personal goals for the year >> Wait, given guns from or get one quarter for years. So check with your favorite analysts. >> Okay? Growth is on the horizon. Congratulations. Frank's been great to have your leadership in the Cube. Thank you. Time Cuban great to have you. This is silicon angle dot coms. The cube will be right back with our next guest, Cynthia Stoddard from Netapp CIA, Another CIA. We're gonna get into the trenches and hear about the transformation again. We'LL be right back