>> Live from Las Vegas. It's the Cube covering Adobe Summit twenty nineteen brought to you by Extension Interactive. >> Welcome back, everyone. Live cube coverage here in Las Vegas for adobe summat. Twenty nineteen. I'm John for With my Coast. Jeffrey for Yu here for two days. The wall, the wall coverage We're on day to our next guest. Marc Andre Sinclair, director of digital marketing Platform Content Strategy Export Development Canada E D. C. Welcome to the Cube. Thank you. So love your channel. Digital marketing platform content strategy. That's kind of in the center of all the action. So, you know, you've been doing some transformation. Tell us your story. What do you guys do? What was what was that? What's the story? >> So I joined E. C. Exported moment Cata two years ago, really helping them out on the overall digital transformation. So I've been fortunate, joined the organization as the moment that they're our position. We wanted to change like we weren't a mandate to gain back some relevance in the market. CDC exists how occasion businesses go beyond the borders, go international. So they really wanted to be relevant to the market because we're not competing with the markets were really just like a compliment in a market. So we've been on that journey distrust, transformation For the last two years, we've are now competing the first phase of a transformation and just about two years, which normally takes four years in the industry. And we're now add midway to our overall digital transformation. We want a critical the number of customers that we have in four years, but it's a very aggressive target what we call normal, like a stretch goal that are serious put. So that's what we've been up to in the last two years. >> And what >> was the catalyst? Why the change? Because, well, what was going on kind of behind the scenes t make such an aggressive, so aggressive move. If you look at >> the interest you overall, there's a major shift in what is export. So exporting means merchandising guys ing good for most of the people. When when you look at the shipping industry to software and services, these folks are not perceiving themselves as being on exporter like really, you build a software, you sell it. You don't think about your software getting beyond the borders. So the industry, the overall market size, are the number of companies that we could help in. The country has grown, but our number of customer remained flat. So we wanted to catch back at that market reach. And there was a theater in Perth. Is that forced us to change? But basically it started. What? Our CEO Putting forward a strong paper cultured like really forced people to think differently and change. >> What's the progress Like how you happy with the progress so far? Absolutely. What are what are some of the things you've knocked down already? What was the pick us through the steps? They could screw up the plan. What was the What is the plan? What is completed were how much how much is left. >> OK, so it started for us as a strong investments and over all the marketing tech stocks which started obviously where I will be summit. So we started in the vestments with the Adobe expense manager and it was about us changing the technology that we had in terms of delivering a customer experience. So your approach we took wass people processing technology. But at the middle, we really put the customer experience at the forefront of everything at the art of every decisions. Makings. So for us were Margaret, we're finishing the migration as we speak right now. That's the first phase. And now with the partner that we have X censure. We're looking in terms ofthe archaic. How can we build capabilities back in the business? Because we've outsourced are full function to our partner. And now it's about how do we get the right level of cost tower scalability for the future so we can deliver premium customer experience. So a lot of activities have happened. We went into natural transformation at the same time, the organization has embraced our job overall and now we're really thinking about was the future data customer experience. So these are the biggest shift that their condition is looking at As we stand right now, we've done the migration and we can now start to think about personalization experimentations. These are all the cool things that we have ahead of us. >> What was the heavy lifting hard part of getting this off the ground? What, some learning or any experiences where you, you know, failed miserably and rebooted or reset means you learned through it oration. We see these successful projects. What's the key learnings? Have you had any moments like that? >> Definitely So So, First of all, I would like to talk a bit about the fail approach because this is something that wasn't obviously part of the organization. And that is something fundamental to a change in organizations. So to quote my boss fail stance or first attempt and learning, So you got to get out and you got to try things and we gotta experiment. Otherwise, you're not really pushing the boundaries. Eso I'm proud of her failure and actually won an award about failure last year at our, um, organizations. So they have a corporate awards that recognise people that do fails but move on and fell fast, like that's a spirit. So for us as, say, at the beginning, the biggest part of a project was to get the what I call the M V P. Zero. So we have to change from a nun premise toe called architectures. And when you start to do these things at an organization that has never done cloud, you uncover a lot of stuff a lot of security protocols, firewalls kicking in. So our first BP zero just to set the infrastructure has been quite a challenge. I think we went three times out, and the third time was the right one. But this is the critical one where you start to build credibility. And even though for us we're working and agile every two weeks without ever cradle to grave, everything full blown experience, this one was really a longer one. And we were really made sure that the requisition understood that this is complicated When you do the foundation. This >> is company goes cousins to say its foundational. So I'm going to take your time. You've got to get that right. Can't have any cracks in the foundation because you're building on top of it. Exactly. So that three attempts you. You said you went out for forbid, or how did three attempts of building it was >> so the throughout That's R about us deploying the full Levi's serology in the clouds. So first time we went uncover a few things. Second time, not anything pop up weren't aware. And then the third time we went out. Third time's a charm to say we went >> out. It was good >> way. Nailed it on that >> time. It's the >> price I didn't invite you on stage. I don't know if you caught that in the Kino. Towards the end of his keynote, he said, We need to have an award for people that disproved their own hypothesis. Exactly so. But you said it's interesting. He said. The people part was hard in the process, and yet it was a top down initiative from the CEO. So was it not bought in a kind of the mid tier management level? The senior management? Why, if the COC and we need to do this, was it hard to move those different party organization? Well, >> I'd say the people part was more about having the right talent on the right mind sets. So one to CEO put forward the culture paper, the stretch goals. Really the organization started to organize themselves on. Are we going to make that thing happened now? Like we need to work differently. And this is not about just more cash, more at counts. We need to re engineer a bit the way we were working, so I wouldn't say that there was an issue with with the way or the people of today was just like you start through higher scrums, you start the heart coach to start our appeal. These are skills says that you've never had. Like at the beginning of the project, we had new marketing talent. We had new partner for the ritual that every we have a new partner for agile and we also have new technology. So you start with a lot of new stuff at the same time. So I'd say these are natural things that you have to do. Is it easy? No, not necessarily. But we had a lot of support from the sea level standpoint. >> It sounds like you guys have a very Dev ops oriented culture because talking about failing fast is a cultural cloud concept. I mean agile iterating scrums. This's a dev ops mindset, infrastructure. It's code. Did you guys have that built in Or you said you started three years ago. Was that was that the core cultural mindset? >> So I wouldn't say that we're a dev ups type of culture of mentality, I would say, actually, it's probably the part that we still need to invest hard because now we build a fully whole machine that scaring and pushing the machine you start uncover that once you go that full cycle, few things are popping up, so you know, and and the in the nineties are beginning of this of two thousands. Like when you were thinking about nal ticks, people were always like, Okay, let's let's do this on our techs use case. Our position at the end. Let's do your documentation at the end. It tends to be the same thing with Dev up. Sometimes like we have a strong architectural when in terms of regression, automation and all these things, we truly need to invest a bit more so we can have a because we're playing every single two weeks that we wanted or not. So that's a lot of pressure on all the people that do, que way you waited to make sure everything >> you want to get it right first, then kind of bolted on after as more of an operational models >> way had a very strong foundation, and now we're spinning everything. >> It's all I got to ask you about the export piece of it because, obviously, um, international global competitiveness is a big force. Right now, people have to be global and data privacy. You mentioned. We talk about genie pr before we came on camera you an opinion on this. Do you have anything? You? Could you please share your view on TV? I really Well, I thought it's valuable. >> Yeah, absolutely. So what I didn't mention when we chatted about that before is Wei thought a lot about you. We need to comply to GDP. Are because this is ah, European regulation. And we headed up that Yes, a CZ. Because we have prisons internationally and erupts. Not everyone that has that opinion that they need to comply. But what we've uncovered was one, one or two weeks before the D days on May twenty fits that We needed to be compliant. So what has happened is in two weeks, we stop everything. We worked twenty four hours for two weeks to restructure the platform to make sure that we were, like, compliant to do CPR. And then after that, we fought a lot. Next few months, we'LL look into it. Are we going to make that thing right? Because people are scared of gpr, but that you want it or not? This is just a beginning way. See it with the California Act Canada as a castle. I'm pretty sure they're going to be very aggressive, so you need to make sure that you really invest in. There are privacy management and all these things. At the end of the day, if it's well done, your customers will love it. The issue is people are being a bit sneaky without the use data. But if you're being transparent and you're being honest with the way you use the data and you're being fully disclosing what you're doing, it's not an issue you need to embrace it. Actually, I think that's a commis it embrace it because it's going to be part of our journey that we >> want to do the tough work up front for you. He was forced to because you are building something new. And then, well, the deadlines here, so is the struggles. Hard works. He had to grind it out. So you and then once you get over that, prepare for it, invested it, nurture the strategy for that. What's the advice to give someone sets there has to do the GPR and might not be into the time pressure, but it's starting out and saying Okay, I got to get my arms around this. What's the core issues well, getting started, not colour, but like what's playbook? >> So the playbook and say like if you think about G p r. This is basically for the European. You If they're not giving you the right tio leverage cookies and tracking and all these things, you should not be doing it. So it's simply thinking in your implementation of a piece of software that goes at the beginning that says, Do you want to have full functional thief, full personalization or not? And don't look at GDP R. But look at the customer experience. If you put the customer once again at the forefront and you really think about what does it make sense? You know if if you and I get on the Web sites and we see that thing that is fronting A, I know what you've done last summer like it's kind of creepy. You don't want to have these things. And so you just build that customer experience around their privacy management, and then everything will fall together. >> So build it into the product. >> Yeah, platform, yeah, and do it the right way and compliance will follow. Don't do it to be compliant. Don't >> exactly do it through a customer experience, >> right? Right. So how's this success band in terms of getting into some of these new markets for you in terms of software and services and some of the other export markets? So, so >> interesting question, because two years ago a DC was focused on to court things, financial products and insurance products. So right now we've expended our product line, and we're now having this what we call knowledge business. So if you think about occasion, business or any business that wants to go beyond the borders, this's quite scary to go in the international game. So now we're capable of offering them a lot of insights on international market out the exports virus key questions that haven't her journey. So we're not helping them to our journey and also as were wet and better than the international supply chains. We're helping them with connecting with big, big companies that are leveraging or looking for some capabilities that we have in the country. So we've really skilled up the product line that we have. We're really shifting the model. We're working a lot with the banks and the way we're supporting the Cajun businesses so like it's days and nights, the type of products that have a solution, the experience that were providing, uh, from two years ago. Do we still have work? Absolutely. Like digital transformation is never such a thing that is completed. The key essence here. The key message is, it's never done, and the customer experience has to be at the forefront if you think about the customer experience. It just happened that most of the experiences digital these days so test our mission is never handing. >> I think I think it's a great mind set. I think that's so smart. It's not just about mobile first or cloud for just customer center. From the beginning, I'm gonna ask you the question. What's it like working with a century Iraq? That what role that they play with a easy to work with the good? What's the story? >> Absolutely. I'm very pleased with the team that we had. We have strong people from Accenture were fully leveraging the network that they have because they're distributed in the global business. Axe Central, for us, is doing all the delivery stuff, the the very difficult stuff behind the scene that is normally like your function that you haven't an organization. So we've been extremely pleased on DH. Actually, I think that the fighter fact that were capable of delivering every single two weeks and agile were pure, agile. You will hear in the industry that some people think they're our job, but they're actually hybrid Elijah. So we're full blown, agile the organization. And they've been strong partner with us on that journey. >> That's awesome. Well, I love the story looking for to keep it in touch. Keep us posted on When you get this transformation. I look forward to chatting. And thanks for sharing your story. And inside here in the Cube, my pleasure. Mark Andreessen, Claire customer here inside the cute telling about the journey and the struggles and GDP are get on it and make it an advantage. Great. Great line there. And digital is the future. I'm Jeffery Jeffery. More day to coverage with the Cube after the short break

>> Announcer: From around the globe, it's "theCUBE" with digital coverage of AWS "re:Invent" 2020. Sponsored by Intel, AWS and our community partners. >> Hi, everyone, welcome back to theCUBE's virtual coverage of AWS "re:Invent" virtual 2020. It's not an in-person event this year. It's remote, it's virtual, "theCUBE" is virtual and our guests and our interviewers will be remote as well. And so we're here covering the event for the next three weeks, throughout the next three cause we're weaving in commentary from "theCUBE", check out the cube.net and all of our coverage. And here at AWS we have special feature programming, we got a great segment here talking about big data in the cloud, governance, data lakes, all that good stuff. Rik Tamm-Daniels, vice-president strategic ecosystems and technology for Informatica, and Rick Turnock, head of enterprise data services, Invesco, customer of Informatica. Welcome to the cube. >> Hey John, thanks for having us. >> So Rik, with a K from Informatica, I want to ask you first, we've been covering the company journey for many, many years. Always been impressed with the focus on data and specifically cloud and all the things that you guys have been announcing over the years, have been spot on the mark. You know, AI with CLAIRE, you know, making things, cloud native, all that's kind of playing out now with the pandemic, "re:Invent", that's the story here. Building blocks with high level services, cloud native, but data is the critical piece again. More machine learning, more AI, more data management. What's your take on this year's "re:Invent". >> Absolutely John and again, we're always excited to be here at "re:Invent", we've been here since the very first one. You know, it's a deep talk to a couple of key trends there, especially the era of the global pandemic here. There's so many challenges that so many enterprises are experiencing. I think the big surprise has been, that has actually translated into a tremendous amount of demand for digital transformation, and cloud modernization in particular. So we've seen a huge uptake in our cloud relationships with AWS when it comes to transformational architecture solutions around data and analytics, and using data as a fundamental asset for digital transformation. And so some of those solution areas are things like data warehouse, modernization of the cloud, or end-to-end data governance. That's a huge topic as well for many enterprises today. >> Before coming into "re:Invent", I had a chance to sit down an exclusive interview with Andy Jassy. I just spoke with Matt Garman who's now heading up sales and marketing, who ran EC too. Rick, you're a customer of Informatica. Their big talking point to me and validation to the trends is, there's no excuse to go slow anymore because there's a reason to go fast cause there's consequences and the pandemic has highlighted that you got to move faster otherwise, you know, you're going to be on the wrong side of history and necessity is the mother of all invention. Okay, great. I buy that by the way. So I have no complaints on talking point there from Amazon Web Services. The problem is, you got to manage the data. (John chuckles) To go fast. The gas in the tank is data, and if it's screwed up, it's not going to go well, all right? So it's like putting gas in a car. So, this is where I see the data lake coming into the cloud and all the benefits and look at the successes of companies. The cloud is a real enabler. What's your take on this? The importance of data governance, because cloud scale is here, people want to go faster, data is like the key thing. >> Yeah. The data governance was a critical component when we started our enterprise data platform and looking at, you know, how can we build a modern-day architecture with scale, bringing our enterprise data, but doing it in a governed fashion. So, when we did it, we kind of looked at, you know, what are critical partners? How can we apply data governance and the full catalog capabilities of knowing what data's coming in, identifying it, and then really controlling the quality of it to meet the needs of the organization. It was a critical component for us because typically it's been difficult to get access to that right data. And as we look in the future and even current needs, we really need to understand our data and bring the right data in and make it easily accessible and governance, and quality of that is a critical component of it. >> I want to just follow up with that if you don't mind cause you know, I've done so many of these interviews, I've been on the block now 30 years in the industry, I've seen the waves come and go, and you see a lot of these mandates, you know, "Data governance, we're adding data governance." From the Ivory tower, or you hear, "Everything got to be a service." But when you peel back and look under the hood to make that happen, it's complicated. You've got to have put things in place and it's got to be set up properly, you got to do your work. How important it is to have... And well what's under the covers to this? Cause governance, yeah, it's a talking point, I get that. But to make it actually happen well, it's hard. >> We started really with the operating models from the start. So I kind of took over data governance seven years ago and had a governing global architecture that's been around for 40 years, and it was hard. So this was really our shot and time to get it right. So we did an operating model, a governance model, and it really ingrained it through the whole build and execution process. And so it was part with technology and it was foundational to the process to really deliver it. So it wasn't governance from a governance saying, it was really part of our operating model and process to build this out and really succeed at it. >> Rik, on the Informatica side, I got to get your take on the new solution you guys announced, "The Governed Data Lake", I think it was solution. Does this tie into that? Take a minute to explain the announcement, and how does this tie in? >> Yeah, absolutely John. So I think you take a step back, look at... We talked about some of the drivers of why companies are investing in cloud data lakes. And I think what comes down to is, when you think about that core foundation of data analytics, you know, they're really looking at, you know, how do we go ahead and create a tremendous leap forward in terms of their ability to leverage data as an asset. And again, as we talked about, one of the biggest challenges is trust around the data. And what the solution does though, is it really looks to say, "Okay, first and foremost, "let's create that foundation of trust "not just for the cloud data lake, "but for the entire enterprise. "To ensure that when we start to build this "new architecture, one, we understand the data assets "that are coming in at the very get-go." Right? It's much harder to add data governance after the fact, but you put it in upfront, you understand your existing data landscape. And once that data is there, you make sure you understand the quality of the information, you cleanse the data, you also make sure you put it under the right data management policies. So many policies that enterprises are subject to now like CCPA and GDPR. They have to be concerned about consumer privacy and being able as part of your governance foundational layer, to make sure that you're in compliance as data moves through your new architectures. It's fundamental having that end trust and confidence to be able to use that data downstream. So our solution looks to do that end-to-end across a cloud environment, and again, not just the cloud environment, but the full enterprise as well. One thing I do want to touch on if you don't mind is on the AI side of things and the tooling side of things. Because I think data governance has been around a while, as you said, it's not that it's a new concept. But how do you do it efficiently in today's world? >> John: Yeah. >> And this is where Informatica is focused on a concept of data 4.0. Which is the use of metadata and AI and machine learning and intelligence, to make this process much, much more efficient. >> Yeah that's a good point, Rik, from these two Rickes, I got to go, one's with a K, one with a C, and CK. So Rick, CK and from Invesco customer, I want to just check that with you because I was your customer of Informatica, by they brought up a good point about governance. And I saw this movie before, we've all seen this before, people just slap on solutions or tooling to a pre-existing architecture. You see that with security, you know, now it's, you can't have a conversation without saying, "Oh security's got to be baked in from the beginning." Okay cool, I get that. There's no debate there. Governance, same kind of thing, you know, you're hearing this over and over again, if you don't bake governance into the beginning of everything, you're going to be screwed. Okay? So how important is that foundation of trust for this peace. (Rick mumbling) >> It's critical and to do it at beginning, right? So you're profiling the data, you're defining entitlements and who has access to it, you're defining data quality rules that you can validate that, you define the policies, is there a PII data, all of that, as you do that from the start, then you have a well-governed and documented data catalog and taxonomy that has the policies and the controls in place to allow that to use. If you do it after the fact, then you're always going to be catching up. So a part of our process and policies and where the really Informatica tools delivered for us is to make it part of that process. And to use that as we continue to build out our data platform with the quality controls and all the governance processes built in. >> I got to ask on your journey, that's seven years ago, you took over the practice. You were probably right in the middle of the sea change when everyone kind of woke up and said, "Hey, you know, Amazon, you go back seven years, "look at Amazon where they were to where they are today." Okay? Significantly strong then, total bellwether now in terms of value opportunity. So, how did you look at the cloud migration? How do you think about the cloud architecture? Because I'm sure, and I'd love to get your story here about how you thought about cloud, in the midst of architecting the data foundational platform there. >> Yeah, we're a global company that had architecture, we grew it by acquisition. So a lot of our data architecture was on-prem, difficult really to pull that enterprise data together to meet the business needs. So when we started this, we really wanted to leverage cloud technology. We wanted a modern stack. We wanted scale, flexibility, agility, security, all the things that the cloud brought us too. So we did a search, and looking at that, and looked at competitors, but really landed on to Amazon just bought by core capabilities and scale they have innovation and just the services to bring a lot what we're looking at and really deliver on what we wanted from a platform. >> Why Informatica and AWS, why the combination? Can you share some of the reasons why you went with Informatica with AWS? >> Yeah, again, when we started this off, we looked at the competitors, right? And we were using IVQ. So we had an Informatica product on-prem, but we looked at a lot of the different governance competitors, and really the integrated platform that Informatica brings to us, what was the key deliverer, right? So we can really have the technical metadata with EDC and enterprise data client, catalog, scan our sources, our file, understanding the data and lineage of what it is. And we can tie that into axon and the governance tools to really define business costs returns. We were very critical of defining all our key data elements business glossary, and then we can see where that is by linking that to the technical metadata. So we know where our PII data, where are all our data and how it flows, both tactically and from a business process. And then the IDQ. So when we've defined and understand the data, we want to bring in the delight and how we want to conform it, to make it easily accessible, we can define data quality rules within the governance tool, and then execute that with IDQ, and really have a well-defined data quality process that really takes it from governance in theory to governance in really execution. >> That's awesome. Hey, you are using the data, you're using the cloud, you're getting everything you need out of it. That's the whole idea, isn't it? >> Yeah. >> That's good stuff, Rik at Informatica, tell us about what's going on, you mentioned data 4.0, I think people should pay attention to some of the interviews I've done with your team. They're online also, it's part of that next-gen, next level thinking. Here at "re:Invent", what should customers pay attention to, that you guys are doing? Great customer example here of cloud scale. What's the story for "re:Invent" this year for Informatica. >> But what John, it comes down to when customers think about their cloud journey, right? And the difference, especially with their data centric workloads and priorities and initiatives, all the different hurdles that they need to overcome. I think Informatica we're uniquely positioned to help customers address all those different challenges and you heard Rick speak about a whole bunch of those along the way. And I think particularly at "re:Invent", first of all, I just welcome folks to... They want to learn more about our data governance solution. Please come by our virtual booth. We also have a great interactive experience that encouraged folks to check out. One of the key components of our solution is our enterprise data catalog. And attendees at "re:Invent" can actually get hands on with our data catalog through the demo jam, the AWS demo jam as part of "re:invent". So I'd encourage folks to check that out as well, just to see what we're talking about yet actually. >> Awesome. Final question for you guys, as "re:Invent" is going on, a lot app stores are popping up, you seeing obviously the same trends, machine learning and you know, outpost is booming, so a cloud operations is clearly here, Rick from Invesco, what do you think the most important story is for your peers as they're here? It's a learning conference and you guys have seven years in the cloud working together with Informatica, in your opinion, what should people be paying attention to as they looked at this pandemic and what they got to get through? And then coming out of it with the growth strategy, it's all got to be more about the data, there's more data coming in, more sources, IoT data, certainly the work at home is causing these workloads, workplace, workflows, everything's changed, the future of work. What's your advice to peers out there on what to pay attention to and what to think about? >> We really started with a top-down strategy, right? To really the vision and the future. What do we want to get out of our data? Data is just data, right? But it's the information, it's the analytics, it's really delivering value for our clients, shareholders, and employees to really do their job, simplify our architecture. So really defining that vision of what you want and approach, and then executing on it, right? So how do you build it in a way to make it flexible and scalable, and how do you build an operating and governance model really to deliver on it because, you know, garbage in is garbage out, and you really got to have those processes, I think to really get the full value of what you're building. >> Get the data out there at the right place, at the right time and the right quality data. That's a lot more involved now and you need to be agile. And I think agile data is a way to go. Rick Turnock... >> And then with channels and capabilities that makes it easier, right? It makes it doable. And I think that's what cloud and the Informatica tools, right? Where in the past, you know, it was people hard coding and doing it right? The capability of that cloud and these tools give us makes it really achievable. >> You know, we have an old saying here in our CUBE team, you know, "If there's a problem, "you got to see if it's important, "and then look at the consequences "of not solving that problem, quantify the value of "solving or not solving that problem, "and then look and deploy solutions to do it." I think now with the data, you can actually do that and say, "This ain't quite the consequences of not doing this "or doing this, have a quantifiable value." I just loved that because it brings the whole ROI back to the table. And, you know, it's a dark art, it used to be, you mentioned the old days, you know, you got to do all this custom work, it was like a dark art. Oh yeah, the ROI calculation, payback. I mean, it was a moving train. That's the way it used to be. Not anymore. >> You got to do it to survive, really, if you're not doing it, you know, I don't know. >> Necessity is the mother of all inventions I think, now more than ever, data's going to be the key. Rik final word from Informatica. What should people pay attention to? >> Yeah, I mean, I think as you mentioned there, data is obviously a critical asset, right? And, and to your point with cloud, you can not only realize ROI quickly, but, you can actually iterate so much more quickly, where you can get that ROI immediately or you can validate that ROI, you can adjust your approach. But again, from an Informatica standpoint, we are seeing such a huge uptake in demand for customers who want to go to the cloud, who are modernizing. Every day we're investing heavily and how do we make sure that customers can get there quickly? They can maximize the ROI from their data assets, and we're doing it with all things, data management, from traditional data integration, all the way to the data governance, all the capabilities we talked about today. >> Yeah. Congratulations. That's the benefit of investing in a platform and having a set of out of the box tooling with SaaS, platform as a service, really it can enable success. And I think the pandemic is pretty obvious who's taking advantage of it, so congratulations and continued success. Thanks for coming on. Appreciate it. Rick Turnock, head of data service, enterprise data services at Invesco, customer of Informatica sharing his insight. Great insight there. Necessity is the mother of all inventions, baking it in from the beginning data governance foundational, it's not a bolt on, that's the message. I'm John Furrier with theCUBE. Thanks for watching. (soft music)

>> From theCUBE studios in Palo Alto in Boston, connecting with thought leaders all around the world, this a CUBE conversation. >> Hello, and welcome to this CUBE conversation, I'm John Furrier, host of theCUBE here, in our Palo Alto, California studios, here with our quarantine crew. We're getting all the remote interviews during this time of COVID-19. We've got two great remote guests here, Rachini Moosavi who's the Executive Director of Analytical Services and Data Governance at UNC Healthcare, and Sonya Jordan, Enterprise Analytics Manager of Data Governance at UNC Health. Welcome to theCUBE, thanks for coming on. >> Thank you. >> Thanks for having us. >> So, I'm super excited. University of North Carolina, my daughter will be a freshman this year, and she is coming, so hopefully she won't have to visit UNC Health, but looking forward to having more visits down there, it's a great place. So, thanks for coming on, really appreciate it. Okay, so the conversation today is going to be about how data and how analytics are helping solve problems, and ultimately, in your case, serve the community, and this is a super important conversation. So, before we get started, talk about UNC Health, what's going on there, how you guys organize, how big is it, what are some of the challenges that you have? >> SO UNC Health is comprised of about 12 different entities within our hospital system. We have physician groups as well as hospitals, and we serve, we're spread throughout all of North Carolina, and so we serve the patients of North Carolina, and that is our primary focus and responsibility for our mission. As part of the offices Sonya and I are in, we are in the Enterprise Analytics and Data Sciences Office that serves all of those entities and so we are centrally located in the triangle area of North Carolina, which is pretty central to the state, and we serve all of our entities equally from our Analytics and Data Governance needs. >> John: You guys got a different customer base, obviously you've got the clinical support, and you got the business applications, you got to be agile, that's what it's all about today, you don't need to rely on IT support. How do you guys do that? What's the framework? How do you guys tackle that problem of being agile, having the data be available, and you got two different customers, you got all the compliance issues with clinical, I can only imagine all the regulations involved, and you've got the business applications. How do you handle those? >> Yeah, so for us in the roles that we are in, we are fully responsible for more of the data and analytics needs of the organization, and so we provide services that truly are balanced across our clinician group, so we have physicians, and nurses, and all of the other ancillary clinical staff that we support, as well as the operational needs as well, so revenue cycle, finance, pharmacy, any of those groups that are required in order to run a healthcare system. So, we balance our time amongst all of those and for the work that we take on and how we continuously support them is really based on governance at the end of the day. How we make decisions around what the priorities are and what needs to happen next, and requires the best insights, is really how we focus on what work we do next. As for the applications that we build, in our office, we truly only build analytical applications or products like visualizations within Tableau as well as we support data governance platforms and services and so we provide some of the tools that enable our end users to be able to interact with the information that we're providing around analytics and insights, at the end of the day. >> Sonya, what's your job? Your title is Analytics Manager of Data Governance, obviously that sounds broad but governance is obviously required in all things. What is your job, what is your day-to-day roles like? What's your focus? >> Well, my day-to-day operations is first around building a data governance program. I try to work with identifying customers who we can start partnering with so that we can start getting documentation and utilizing a lot of the programs that we currently have, such as certification, so when we talk about initiatives, this is one of the initiatives that we use to partner with our stakeholders in order to start bringing visibilities to the various assets, such as metrics, or universes that we want to certify, or dashboards, algorithm, just various lists of different types of assets that we certify that we like to partner with the customers in order for them to start documenting within the tools, so that we can bring visibility to what's available, really focusing on data literacy, helping people to understand what assets are available, not only what assets are available, but who owns them, and who own the asset, and what can they do with it, making sure that we have great documentation in order to be able to leverage literacy as well. >> So, I can only imagine with how much volume you guys are dealing from a data standpoint, and the diversity, that the data warehouse must be massive, or it must be architected in a way that it can be agile because the needs, of the diverse needs. Can you guys share your thoughts on how you guys look on the data warehouse challenge and opportunity, and what you guys are currently doing? >> Well, so- >> Yeah you go ahead, Rachini. >> Go ahead, Sonya. >> Well, last year we implemented a tool, an enterprise warehouse, basically behind a tool that we implemented, and that was an opportunity for Data Governance to really lay some foundation and really bring visibility to the work that we could provide for the enterprise. We were able to embed into probably about six or seven of the 13 initiatives, I was actually within that project, and with that we were able to develop our stewardship committee, our data governance council, and because Rachini managed Data Solutions, our data solution manager was able to really help with the architect and integration of the tools. >> Rachini, your thoughts on running the data warehouse, because you've got to have flexibility for new types of data sources. How do you look at that? >> So, as Sonya just mentioned, we upgraded our data warehouse platform just recently because of these evolving needs, and like a lot of healthcare providers out there, a lot of them are either one or the other EMRs that are top in the market. With our EMR, they provide their own data warehouse, so you have to factor almost the impact of what they bring to the table in with an addition to all of those other sources of data that you're trying to co-mingle and bring together into the same data warehouse, and so for us, it was time for us to evolve our data warehouse. We ended up deciding on trying to create a virtual data warehouse, and in doing so, with virtualization, we had to upgrade our platform, which is what created that opportunity that Sonya was mentioning. And by moving to this new platform we are now able to bring all of that into one space and it's enabled us to think about how does the community of analysts interact with the data? How do we make that available to them in a secure way? In a way that they can take advantage of reusable master data files that could be our source of truth within our data warehouse, while also being able to have the flexibility to build what they need in their own functional spaces so that they can get the wealth of information that they need out of the same source and it's available to everyone. >> Okay, so I got to ask the question, and I was trying to get the good stuff out first, but let's get at the reality of COVID-19. You got pre-COVID-19 pandemic, we're kind of in the middle of it, and people are looking at strategies to come out of it, obviously the world will be changed, higher with a lot of virtualization, virtual meetings, and virtual workforce, but the data still needs to be, the business still needs to run, but data will be changing different sources, how are you guys responding to that crisis because you're going to be leaned on heavily for more and more support? >> Yeah it's been non-stop since March (laughs). So, I'm going to tell you about the reporting aspects of it, and then I'd love to turn it over to Sonya to tell you about some of the great things that we've actually been able to do to it and enhance our data governance program by not wasting this terrible event and this opportunity that's come up. So, with COVID, when it kicked off back in March, we actually formed a war room to address the needs around reporting analytics and just insights that our executives needed, and so in doing so, we created within the first week, our first weekend actually, our first dashboard, and within the next two weeks we had about eight or nine other dashboards that were available. And we continuously add to that. Information is so critical to our executives, to our clinicians, to be able to know how to address the evolving needs of COVID-19 and how we need to respond. We literally, and I'm not even exaggerating, at this very moment we have probably, let's see, I think it's seven different forecasts that we're trying to build all at the same time to try and help us prepare for this new recovery, this sort of ramp up efforts, so to your point, it started off as we're shutting down so that we can flatten the curve, but now as we try to also reopen at the same time while we're still meeting the needs of our COVID patients, there's this balancing act that we're trying to keep up with and so analytics is playing a critical factor in doing that. >> Sonya, your thoughts. First of all, congratulations, and action is what defines the players from the pretenders in my mind, you're seeing that play out, so congratulations for taking great action, I know you're working hard. Sonya, your thoughts, COVID, it's putting a lot of pressure? It highlights the weaknesses and strengths of what's kind of out there, what's your thoughts? >> Well, it just requires a great deal of collaboration and making sure that you're documenting metrics in a way where you're factoring true definition because at the end of the day, this information can go into a dashboard that's going to be visualized across the organization, I think what COVID has done was really enhanced the need and the understanding of why data governance is important and also it has allowed us to create a lot of standardization, where we we're standardizing a lot of processes that we currently had in correct place but just enhancing them. >> You know, not to go on a tangent, but I will, it's funny how the reality has kind of pulled back, exposed a lot of things, whether it's the remote work situation, people are VPNing, not under provision with the IT side. On the data side, everyone now understands the quality of the data. I mean, I got my kids talking progression analysis, "Oh, the curves are all wrong," I mean people are now seeing the science behind the data and they're looking at graphs all the time, you guys are in the visualization piece, this really highlights the need of data as a story, because there's an impact, and two, quality data. And if you don't have the data, the story isn't being told and then misinformation comes out of it, and this is actually playing out in real time, so it's not like it's just a use case for the most analytics but this again highlights the value of proposition of what you guys do. What's your personal thoughts on all this because this really is playing out globally. >> Yeah, it's been amazing how much information is out there. So, we have been extremely blessed at times but also burdened at times by that amount of information. So, there's the data that's going through our healthcare system that we're trying to manage and wrangle and do that data storytelling so that people can drive those insights to very effective decisions. But there's also all of this external data that we're trying to be able to leverage as well. And this is where the whole sharing of information can sometimes become really hard to try and get ahead of, we leverage the Johns Hopkins data for some time, but even that, too, can have some hiccups in terms of what's available. We try to use our State Department of Health and Human Services data and they just about updated their website and how information was being shared every other week and it was making it impossible for us to ingest that into our dashboards that we were providing, and so there's really great opportunities but also risks in some of the information that we're pulling. >> Sonya, what's your thoughts? I was just having a conversation this morning with the Chief of Analytics and Insight from NOA which is the National Oceanic Administration, about weather data and forecasting weather, and they've got this community model where they're trying to get the edges to kind of come in, this teases out a template. You guys have multiple locations. As you get more democratized in the connection points, whether it's third-party data, having a system managing that is hard, and again, this is a new trend that's emerging, this community connection points, where I think you guys might also might be a template, and your multiple locations, what's your general thoughts on that because the data's coming in, it's now connected in, whether it's first-party to the healthcare system or third-party. >> Yeah, well we have been leveraging our data governance tool to try to get that centralized location, making sure that we obtain the documentations. Due to COVID, everything is moving very fast, so it requires us to really sit down and capture the information and when you don't have enough resources in order to do that, it's easy to miss some very important information, so really trying to encourage people to understand the reason why we have data governance tools in order for them to leverage, in order to capture the documentation in a way that it can tell the story about the data, but most of all, to be able to capture it in a way so that if that person happened to leave the organization, we're not spending a lot of time trying to figure out how was this information created, how was this dashboard designed, where are the requirements, where are the specifications, where are the key elements, where does that information live, and making sure we capture that up front. >> So, guys, you guys are using Informatica, how are they helping you? Obviously, they have a system they're getting some great feedback on, how are you using Informatica, how is it going, and how has that enabled you guys to be successful? >> Yeah, so we decided on Informatica after doing a really thorough vetting of all of the other vendors in the industry that could provide us these services. We've really loved the capabilities that we've been able to provide to our customers at this point. It's evolving, I think, for us, the ability to partner with a group like Prominence, to be able to really leverage the capabilities of Informatica and then be really super, super hyper focused on providing data literacy back to our end users and making that the full intent of what we're doing within data governance has really enabled us to take the tools and make it something that's specific to UNC Health and the needs that our end users are verbalizing and provide that to them in a very positive way. >> Sonya, they talk about this master catalog, and I've talked to the CEO of Informatica and all their leaders, governance is a big part of it, and I've always said, I've always kind of had a hard time, I'm an entrepreneur, I like to innovate, move fast, break things, which is kind of not the way you work in the data world, you don't want to be breaking anything, so how do you balance governance and compliance with innovation? This has been a key topic and I know that you guys are using their enterprise data catolog. Is that helping? How does that fit in, is that part of it? >> Well, yeah, so during our COVID initiatives and building these telos dashboards, these visualizations and forecast models for executive leaders, we were able to document and EMPower you, which we rebranded Axon to EMPower, we were able to document a lot of our dashboards, which is a data set, and pretty much document attributes and show lineage from EMPower to EDC, so that users would know exactly when they start looking at the visualization not only what does this information mean, but they're also able to see what other sources that that information impacts as well as the data lineage, where did the information come from in EDC. >> So I got to ask the question to kind of wrap things up, has Informatica helped you guys out now that you're in this crisis? Obviously you've implemented before, now that you're in the middle of it, have you seen any things that jumped out at you that's been helpful, and are there areas that need to be worked on so that you guys continue to fight the good fight, come out of this thing stronger than before you came in? >> Yeah, there is a lot of new information, what we consider as "aha" moments that we've been learning about, and how EMPower, yes there's definitely a learning curve because we implemented EDC and EMPower last year doing our warehouse implementation, and so there's a lot of work that still needs to be done, but based on where we were the first of the year, I can say we have evolved tremendously due to a lot of the pandemic issues that arised, and we're looking to really evolve even greater, and pilot across the entire organization so that they can start leveraging these tools for their needs. >> Rachini you got any thoughts on your end on what's worked, what you see improvements coming, anything to share? >> Yeah, so we're excited about some of the new capabilities like the marketplace for example that's available in Axon, we're looking forward to being able to take advantage of some of these great new aspects of the tool so that we can really focus more on providing those insights back to our end users. I think for us, during COVID, it's really been about how do we take advantage of the immediate needs that are surfacing. How do we build all of these dashboards in record-breaking time but also make sure that folks understand exactly what's being represented within those dashboards, and so being able to provide that through our Informatica tools and service it back to our end users, almost in a seamless way like it's built into our dashboards, has been a really critical factor for us, and feeling like we can provide that level of transparency, and so I think that's where as we evolve that we would look for more opportunities, too. How do we make it simple for people to get that immediate answers to their questions, of what does the information need without it feeling like they're going elsewhere for the information. >> Rachini, thank you so much for your insight, Sonya as well, thanks for the insight, and stay safe. Sonya, behind you, I was pointing out, that's your artwork, you painted that picture. >> Yes. >> Looks beautiful. >> Yes, I did. >> You got two jobs, you're an artist, and you're doing data governance. >> Yes, I am, and I enjoy painting, that's how I relax (laughs). >> Looks great, get that on the market soon, get that on the marketplace, let's get that going. Appreciate the time, thank you so much for the insights, and stay safe and again, congratulations on the hard work you're doing, I know there's still a lot more to do, thanks for your time, appreciate it. >> Thank you. >> Thank you. >> It's theCUBE conversation, I'm John Furrier at the Palo Alto studios, for the remote interviews with Informatica, I'm John Furrier, thanks for watching. (upbeat music)

(upbeat music) >> Live, from Las Vegas it's theCUBE. Covering Informatica World 2019. Brought to you by Informatica. >> Welcome back everyone to theCUBE's live coverage of Informatica World 2019. I'm your host Rebecca Knight along with my co-host John Furrier. We are joined by Adam Mariano, he is the Vice-President Health Informatics at HighPoint Solutions. Thanks for coming on theCUBE! >> Thank you for having me. >> So tell our viewers a little bit about HighPoint Solutions, what the company does and what you do there. >> Sure, HighPoint is a consulting firm in the Healthcare and Life Sciences spaces. If it's data and it moves we probably can assist with it. We do a lot of data management, we implement the full Infomatica stack. We've been an Infomatica partner for about 13 years, we were their North American partner of the year last year. We're part of a much larger organization, IQVIA, which is a merger of IMS quintiles, large data asset holder, big clinical research organization. So we're very much steeped in the healthcare data space. >> And what do you do there as Vice President of Health and Formatics? >> I'm in an interesting role. Last year I was on the road 51 weeks. So I was at over a hundred facilities, I go out and help our customers or prospective customers or just people we've met in the space, get strategic about how they're going to leverage data as a corporate asset, figure out how they're going to use it for clinical insight, how they're going to use it for operational support in payer spaces. And really think about how they're going to execute on their next strategy for big data, cloud strategy, digital re-imaginment of the health care space and the like. >> So we know that healthcare is one of the industries that has always had so much data, similar to financial services. How are the organizations that you're working with, how are they beginning to wrap their brains around this explosion of data? >> Well it's been an interesting two years, the last augur two years there isn't a single conversation that hasn't started with governance. And so it's been an interesting space for us. We're a big MDM proponent, we're a big quality proponent, and you're seeing folks come back to basics again, which is I need data quality, I need data management from a metadata perspective, I need to really get engaged from a master data management perspective, and they're really looking for integrated metadata and governance process. Healthcare's been late to the game for about five or six years behind other industries. I think now that everybody's sort of gone through meaningful use and digital transformation on some level, we're now arcing towards consumerism. Which really requires a big deep-dive in the data. >> Adam, data governance has been discussed at length in the industry, certainly recently everyone knows GDPR's one year anniversary, et cetera, et cetera. But the role of data is really critical applications for SAS and new kinds of use cases, and the term Data Provisioning as a service has been kicked around. So I'd love to get your take on what that means, what is the definition, what does it mean? Data Provisioning as a service. >> The industry's changed. We've sort of gone through that boomerang, alright, we started deep in the sort of client server, standard warehouse space. Everything was already BMS. We then, everybody moved to appliances, then everybody came back and decided Hadoop, which is now 15 year old technology, was the way to go. Now everybody's drifting to Cloud, and you're trying to figure out how am I going to provision data to all these self-service users who are now in the sort of bring your own tools space. I'd like to use Tablo, I'd like to use Click. I like SAS. People want to write code to build their own data science. How can you provision to all those people, and do so through a standard fashion with the same metadata with the same process? and there isn't a way to do that without some automation at this point. It's really just something you can't scale, without having an integrated data flow. >> And what's the benefits of data provisioning as a service? What's the impact of that, what does it enable? >> So the biggest impact is time to market. So if you think about warehousing projects, historically a six month, year-long project, I can now bring data to people in three weeks. In two days, in a couple of hours. So thinking about how I do ingestion, if you think about the Informatica stack, something like EDC using enterprise data catalog to automatically ingest data, pushing that out into IDQ for quality. Proving that along to AXON for data governance and process and then looking at enterprise data lake for actual self-service provisioning. Allowing users to go in and look at their own data assets like a store, pick things off the shelf, combine them, and then publish them to their favorite tools. That premise is going to have to show up everywhere. It's going to have to show up on AWS, and on Amazon, and on Azure. It's going to have to show up on Google, it's going to have to show up regardless of what tool you're using. And if you're going to scale data science in a real meaningful way without having to stack a bunch of people doing data munging, this is the way it's going to have to go. >> Now you are a former nurse, and you now-- >> I'm still a nurse, technically. >> You're still a nurse! >> Once a nurse, always a nurse. Don't upset the nurses. >> I've got an ear thing going on, can you help me out here? (laughter) >> So you have this really unique vantage point, in the sense that you are helping these organizations do a better job with their data, and you also have a deep understanding of what it's like to be the medical personnel on the other side, who has to really implement these changes, and these changes will really change how they get their jobs done. How would you say, how does that change the way you think about what you do? And then also what would you say are the biggest differences for the nurses that are on the floor today, in the hospital serving patients? >> I think, in America we think about healthcare we often talked about Doctors, we only talk about nurses in nursing shortages. Nurses deliver all the care. Physicians see at this point, the way that medicine is running, physicians see patients an average two to four minutes. You really think about what that translates to if you're not doing a surgery on somebody, it's enough time to talk to them about their problem, look at their chart and leave. And so nursing care is the point of care, we have a lot of opportunity to create deflection and how care is delivered. I can change quality outcomes, I can change safety problems, I can change length of stay, by impacting how long people keep IVs in after they're no longer being used. And so understanding the way nursing care is delivered, and the lack of transparency that exists with EMR systems, and analytics, there's an opportunity for us to really create an open space for nursing quality. So we're talking a lot now to chief nursing officers, who are never a target of analytics discussion. They don't necessarily have the budget to do a lot of these things, but they're the people who have the biggest point of control and change in the way care is delivered in a hospital system. >> Care is also driven by notifications and data. >> Absolutely. >> So you can't go in a hospital without hearing all kinds of beeps and things. In AI and all the things we've been hearing there's now so many signals, the question is what they pay attention to? >> Exactly. >> This becomes a really interesting thing, because you can get notifications, if everything's instrumented, this is where kind of machine learning, and understanding workflows, outcomes play a big part. This is the theme of the show. It's not just the data and coding, it's what are you looking for? What's the problem statement or what's the outcome or scenario where you want the right notification, at the right time or a resource, is the operating room open? Maybe get someone in. These kinds of new dynamics are enabled by data, what's your take on all this? >> I think you've got some interesting things going on, there's a lot of signal to noise ratio in healthcare. Everybody is trying to build an algorithm for something. Whether that's who's going to overstay their visit, who's going to be readmitted, what's the risk for somebody developing sepsis? Who's likely to follow up on a pharmacy refill for their medication? We're getting into the space where you're going to have to start to accept correlation as opposed to causation, right? We don't have time to wait around for a six month study, or a three year study where you employ 15,000 patients. I've got three years of history, I've got a current census for the last year. I want to figure out, when do I have the biggest risk for falls in a hospital unit? Low staffing, early in their career physicians and nurses? High use of psychotropic meds? There are things that, if you've been in the space, you can pretty much figure out which should go into the algorithm. And then being pragmatic about what data hospitals can actually bring in to use as part of that process. >> So what you're getting at is really domain expertise is just as valuable as coding and wrangling data, and engineering data. >> In healthcare if you don't have SMEs you're not going to get anything practical done. And so we take a lot of these solutions, as one of the interesting touch points of our organization, I think it's where we shine, is bringing that subject matter expertise into a space where pure technology is not going to get it done. It's great if you know how to do MDM. But if you don't know how to do MDM in healthcare, you're going to miss all the critical use cases. So it really - being able to engage that user base, and the SMEs and bring people like nurses to the forefront of the conversation around analytics and how data will be used to your point, which signals to pay attention to. It's critical. >> Supply chains, another big one. >> Yeah. >> Impact there? >> Well it's the new domain in MDM. It's the one that was ignored for a long time. I think people had a hard time seeing the value. It's funny I spoke at 10 o'clock today, about supply chain, that was the session that I had with Nathan Rayne from BJC. We've been helping them embark on their supply chain journey. And from all the studies you look at it's one of the easiest places to find ROI with MBM. There's an unbelievable amount of ways- >> Low hanging fruit. >> $24.5 billion in waste a year in supply chain. It's just astronomical. And it's really easy things, it's about just in time supplies, am I overstocking, am I losing critical supplies for tissue samples, that cost sometimes a $100,000, because a room has been delayed. And therefore that tissue sits out, it ends up expiring, it has to be thrown away. I'll bring up Nathan's name again, but he speaks to a use case that we talked about, which is they needed a supply at a hospital within the system, 30 miles away another hospital had that supply. The supply costs $40,000. You can only buy them in packs of six. The hospital that needed the supply was unaware that one existed in the system, they ordered a new pack of six. So you have a $240,000 price that you could have resolved with a $100 Uber ride, right? And so the reality is that supply could have been shipped, could have been used, but because that wasn't automated and because there was no awareness you couldn't leverage that. Those use cases abound. You can get into the length of stay, you can get into quality of safety, there's a lot of great places to create wins with supply chain in the MDM space. >> One of the conversations we're having a lot in theCUBE, and we're having here at Informatica World, it centers around the skills gap. And you have a interesting perspective on this, because you are also a civil rights attorney who is helping underserved people with their H1B visas. Can you talk a little bit about the visa situation, and what you're seeing particularly as it relates to the skills gap? >> We're in an odd time. We'll leave it at that. I won't make a lot of commentary. >> Yes. >> I'm a civil rights and immigration attorney, and on the immigration side I do a lot of pro bono work with primarily communities of color, but communities at risk looking to help adjust their immigration status. And what you've had is a lot of fear. And so you have, well you might have an H1B holder here, you may have somebody who's on a provisional visa, or family members, and because those family members can no longer come over, people are going home. And you're getting people who are now returning. So we're seeing a negative immigration of places like Mexico, you're seeing a lot of people take their money, and their learnings and go back to India and start companies there and work remotely. So we're seeing a big up-tick in people who are looking for staffing again. I think the last quarter or so has been a pretty big ramp-up. And I think there's going to continue to be this hole, we're going to have to find new sources of talent if we can't bring people in to do the jobs. We're still also, I think it just speaks to our STEM education the fact that we're not teaching kids. I have a 28 year old daughter who loves technology, but I can tell you, her education when she was a kid, was lacking in this technology space. I think it's really an opportunity for us to think about how do we train young people to be in the new data economy. There's certainly an opportunity there today. >> And what about the, I mean you said you were talking about your daughter's education. What would you have directed her toward? What kinds of, when you look ahead to the jobs of the future, particularly having had various careers yourself, what would you say the kids today should be studying? >> That's two questions. So my daughter, I told her do what makes you happy. But I also made her learn Sequel. >> Be happy, but learn Sequel. >> But learn sequel. >> Okay! >> And for kids today I would say look, if you have an affinity and you think you enjoy the computer space, so you think about coding, you like HTML, you like social media. There are a plethora of jobs in that space and none of them require you to be an architect. You can be a BA, you can be a quality assurance person, you can be a PM. You can do analysis work. You can do data design, you can do interface design, there's a lot of space in there. I think we often reject kids who don't go to college, or don't have that opportunity. I think there's an opportunity for us to reach down into urban centers and really think about how we make alternate pathways for kids to get into the space. I think all the academies out there, you're seeing rise, Udemy, and a of of these other places that are offering academy based programs that are three, six months long and they're placing all of their students into jobs. So I don't think that the arc that we've always chased which is you've got to come from a brand named school to get into the space, I don't think it's that important. I think what's important is can I get you the clinical skill, so that you've understood how to move data around, how to process it, how to do testing, how to do design, and then I can bring you into the space and bring you in as an entry level employee. That premise I think is not part of the American dream but it should be. >> Absolutely, looking for talent in these unexpected places. >> College is not the only in point. We're back to having I think vocational schools for the new data economy, which don't exist yet. That's an opportunity for sure. >> And you said earlier, domain expertise, in healthcare as an example, points to what we've been hearing here at the conference, is that with data understanding outcomes and value of the data actually is just as important, as standing up, wrangling data, because if you don't have the data-- >> You make a great point. The other thing I tell young people in my practice, young people I interact with, people who are new to the space is, okay I hear you want to be a data scientist. Learn the business. So if you don't know healthcare get a healthcare education. Come be on this project as a BA. I know you don't want to be a BA, that's fine. Get over it. But come be here and learn the business, learn the dialogue, learn the economy of the business, learn who the players are, learn how data moves through the space, learn what is the actual business about. What does delivering care actually look like? If you're on the payer side, what does claims processing look like from an end to end perspective? Once you understand that I can put you in any role. >> And you know digital four's new non-linear ways to learn, we've got video, I see young kids on YouTube, you can learn anything now. >> Absolutely. >> And scale up your learning at a pace and if you get stuck you can just keep getting through it no-- >> And there are free courses everywhere at this point. Google has a lot of free courses, Amazon will let you train for free on their platform. It's really an opportunity-- >> I think you're right about vocational specialism is actually a positive trend. You know look at the college University scandals these days, is it really worth it? (laughter) >> I got my nursing license through a vocational school originally. But the nursing school, they didn't have any technology at that point. >> But you're a great use case. (laughter) Excellent Adam, thank you so much for coming on theCUBE it's been a pleasure talking to you. >> Thank you. >> I'm Rebecca Knight for John Furrier. You are watching theCUBE. (techno music)