(upbeat music) >> Welcome back everyone to Supercloud 2, live here in Palo Alto, our studio, where we're doing a live stage performance and virtually syndicating out around the world. I'm John Furrier with Dave Vellante, my co-host with the The Cube here. We've got Kit Colbert, the CTO of VM. We're doing a keynote on Cloud Chaos, the evolution of SuperCloud Architecture Kit. Great to see you, thanks for coming on. >> Yeah, thanks for having me back. It's great to be here for Supercloud 2. >> And so we're going to dig into it. We're going to do a Q&A. We're going to let you present. You got some slides. I really want to get this out there, it's really compelling story. Do the presentation and then we'll come back and discuss. Take it away. >> Yeah, well thank you. So, we had a great time at the original Supercloud event, since then, been talking to a lot of customers, and started to better formulate some of the thinking that we talked about last time So, let's jump into it. Just a few quick slides to sort of set the tone here. So, if we go to the the next slide, what that shows is the journey that we see customers on today, going from what we call Cloud First into this phase that many customers are stuck in, called Cloud Chaos, and where they want to get to, and this is the term customers actually use, we didn't make this up, we heard it from customers. This notion of Cloud Smart, right? How do they use cloud more effectively, more intelligently? Now, if you walk through this journey, customers start with Cloud First. They usually select a single cloud that they're going to standardize on, and when they do that, they have to build out a whole bunch of functionality around that cloud. Things you can see there on the screen, disaster recovery, security, how do they monitor it or govern it? Like, these are things that are non-negotiable, you've got to figure it out, and typically what they do is, they leverage solutions that are specific for that cloud, and that's fine when you have just one cloud. But if we build out here, what we see is that most customers are using more than just one, they're actually using multiple, not necessarily 10 or however many on the screen, but this is just as an example. And so what happens is, they have to essentially duplicate or replicate that stack they've built for each different cloud, and they do so in a kind of a siloed manner. This results in the Cloud Chaos term that that we talked about before. And this is where most businesses out there are, they're using two, maybe three public clouds. They've got some stuff on-prem and they've also got some stuff out at the edge. This is apps, data, et cetera. So, this is the situation, this is sort of that Cloud Chaos. So, the question is, how do we move from this phase to Cloud Smart? And this is where the architecture comes in. This is why architecture, I think, is so important. It's really about moving away from these single cloud services that just solve a problem for one cloud, to something we call a Cross-Cloud service. Something that can support a set of functionality across all clouds, and that means not just public clouds, but also private clouds, edge, et cetera, and when you evolve that across the board, what you get is this sort of Supercloud. This notion that we're talking about here, where you combine these cross-cloud services in many different categories. You can see some examples there on the screen. This is not meant to be a complete set of things, but just examples of what can be done. So, this is sort of the transition and transformation that we're talking about here, and I think the architecture piece comes in both for the individual cloud services as well as that Supercloud concept of how all those services come together. >> Great presentation., thanks for sharing. If you could pop back to that slide, on the Cloud Chaos one. I just want to get your thoughts on something there. This is like the layout of the stack. So, this slide here that I'm showing on the screen, that you presented, okay, take us through that complexity. This is the one where I wanted though, that looks like a spaghetti code mix. >> Yes. >> So, do you turn this into a Supercloud stack, right? Is that? >> well, I think it's, it's an evolving state that like, let's take one of these examples, like security. So, instead of implementing security individually in different ways, using different technologies, different tooling for each cloud, what you would do is say, "Hey, I want a single security solution that works across all clouds", right? A concrete example of this would be secure software supply chain. This is probably one of the top ones that I hear when I talk to customers. How do I know that the software I'm building is truly what I expect it to be, and not something that some hacker has gotten into, and polluted with malicious code? And what they do is that, typically today, their teams have gone off and created individual secure software supply chain solutions for each cloud. So, now they could say, "Hey, I can take a single implementation and just have different endpoints." It could go to Google, or AWS, or on-prem, or wherever have you, right? So, that's the sort of architectural evolution that we're talking about. >> You know, one of the things we hear, Dave, you've been on theCUBE all the time, and we, when we talk privately with customers who are asking us like, what's, what's going on? They have the same complaint, "I don't want to build a team, a dev team, for that stack." So, if you go back to that slide again, you'll see that, that illustrates the tech stack for the clouds and the clouds at the bottom. So, the number one complaint we hear, and I want to get your reaction to that, "I don't want to have a team to have to work on that. So, I'm going to pick one and then have a hedge secondary one, as a backup." Here, that's one, that's four, five, eight, ten, ten environments. >> Yeah, I got a lot. >> That's going to be the reality, so, what's the technical answer to that? >> Yeah, well first of all, let me just say, this picture is again not totally representative of reality oftentimes, because while that picture shows a solution for every cloud, oftentimes that's not the case. Oftentimes it's a line of business going off, starting to use a new cloud. They might solve one or two things, but usually not security, usually not some of these other things, right? So, I think from a technical standpoint, where you want to get to is, yes, that sort of common service, with a common operational team behind it, that is trained on that, that can work across clouds. And that's really I think the important evolution here, is that you don't need to replicate these operational teams, one for each cloud. You can actually have them more focused across all those clouds. >> Yeah, in fact, we were commenting on the opening today. Dave and I were talking about the benefits of the cloud. It's heterogeneous, which is a good thing, but it's complex. There's skill gaps and skill required, but at the end of the day, self-service of the cloud, and the elastic nature of it makes it the benefit. So, if you try to create too many common services, you lose the value of the cloud. So, what's the trade off, in your mind right now as customers start to look at okay, identity, maybe I'll have one single sign on, that's an obvious one. Other ones? What are the areas people are looking at from a combination, common set of services? Where do they start? What's the choices? What are some of the trade offs? 'Cause you can't do it everything. >> No, it's a great question. So, that's actually a really good point and as I answer your question, before I answer your question, the important point about that, as you saw here, you know, across cloud services or these set of Cross-Cloud services, the things that comprise the Supercloud, at least in my view, the point is not necessarily to completely abstract the underlying cloud. The point is to give a business optionality and choice, in terms of what it wants to abstract, and I think that gets to your question, is how much do you actually want to abstract from the underlying cloud? Now, what I find, is that typically speaking, cloud choice is driven at least from a developer or app team perspective, by the best of breed services. What higher level application type services do you need? A database or AI, you know, ML systems, for your application, and that's going to drive your choice of the cloud. So oftentimes, businesses I talk to, want to allow those services to shine through, but for other things that are not necessarily highly differentiated and yet are absolutely critical to creating a successful application, those are things that you want to standardize. Again, like things like security, the supply chain piece, cost management, like these things you need to, and you know, things like cogs become really, really important when you start operating at scale. So, those are the things in it that I see people wanting to focus on. >> So, there's a majority model. >> Yes. >> All right, and we heard of earlier from Walmart, who's fairly, you know, advanced, but at the same time their supercloud is pretty immature. So, what are you seeing in terms of supercloud momentum, crosscloud momentum? What's the starting point for customers? >> Yeah, so it's interesting, right, on that that three-tiered journey that I talked about, this Cloud Smart notion is, that is adoption of what you might call a supercloud or architecture, and most folks aren't there yet. Even the really advanced ones, even the really large ones, and I think it's because of the fact that, we as an industry are still figuring this out. We as an industry did not realize this sort of Cloud Chaos state could happen, right? We didn't, I think most folks thought they could standardize on one cloud and that'd be it, but as time has shown, that's simply not the case. As much as one might try to do that, that's not where you end up. So, I think there's two, there's two things here. Number one, for folks that are early in to the cloud, and are in this Cloud Chaos phase, we see the path out through standardization of these cross-cloud services through adoption of this sort of supercloud architecture, but the other thing I think is particularly exciting, 'cause I talked to a number of of businesses who are not yet in the Cloud Chaos phase. They're earlier on in the cloud journey, and I think the opportunity there is that they don't have to go through Cloud Chaos. They can actually skip that whole phase if they adopt this supercloud architecture from the beginning, and I think being thoughtful around that is really the key here. >> It's interesting, 'cause we're going to hear from Ionis Pharmaceuticals later, and they, yes there are multiple clouds, but the multiple clouds are largely separate, and so it's a business unit using that. So, they're not in Cloud Chaos, but they're not tapping the advantages that you could get for best of breed across those business units. So, to your point, they have an opportunity to actually build that architecture or take advantage of those cross-cloud services, prior to reaching cloud chaos. >> Well, I, actually, you know, I'd love to hear from them if, 'cause you say they're not in Cloud Chaos, but are they, I mean oftentimes I find that each BU, each line of business may feel like they're fine, in of themselves. >> Yes, exactly right, yes. >> But when you look at it from an overall company perspective, they're like, okay, things are pretty chaotic here. We don't have standardization, I don't, you know, like, again, security compliance, these things, especially in many regulated industries, become huge problems when you're trying to run applications across multiple clouds, but you don't have any of those company-wide standardizations. >> Well, this is a point. So, they have a big deal with AstraZeneca, who's got this huge ecosystem, they want to start sharing data across those ecosystem, and that's when they will, you know, that Cloud Chaos will, you know, come, come to fore, you would think. I want to get your take on something that Bob Muglia said earlier, which is, he kind of said, "Hey Dave, you guys got to tighten up your definition a little bit." So, he said a supercloud is a platform that provides programmatically consistent services hosted on heterogeneous cloud providers. So, you know, thank you, that was nice and simple. However others in the community, we're going to hear from Dr. Nelu Mihai later, says, no, no, wait a minute, it's got to be an architecture, not a platform. Where do you land on this architecture v. platform thing? >> I look at it as, I dunno if it's, you call it maturity or just kind of a time horizon thing, but for me when I hear the word platform, I typically think of a single vendor. A single vendor provides this platform. That's kind of the beauty of a platform, is that there is a simplicity usually consistency to it. >> They did the architecture. (laughing) >> Yeah, exactly but I mean, well, there's obviously architecture behind it, has to be, but you as a customer don't necessarily need to deal with that. Now, I think one of the opportunities with Supercloud is that it's not going to be, or there is no single vendor that can solve all these problems. It's got to be the industry coming together as a community, inter-operating, working together, and so, that's why, for me, I think about it as an architecture, that there's got to be these sort of, well-defined categories of functionality. There's got to be well-defined interfaces between those categories of functionality to enable modularity, to enable businesses to be able to pick and choose the right sorts of services, and then weave those together into an overall supercloud. >> Okay, so you're not pitching, necessarily the platform, you're saying, hey, we have an architecture that's open. I go back to something that Vittorio said on August 9th, with the first Supercloud, because as well, remember we talked about abstracting, but at the same time giving developers access to those primitives. So he said, and this, I think your answer sort of confirms this. "I want to have my cake eat it too and not gain weight." >> (laughing) Right. Well and I think that's where the platform aspect can eventually come, after we've gotten aligned architecture, you're going to start to naturally see some vendors step up to take on some of the remaining complexity there. So, I do see platforms eventually emerging here, but I think where we have to start as an industry is around aligning, okay, what does this definition mean? What does that architecture look like? How do we enable interoperability? And then we can take the next step. >> Because it depends too, 'cause I would say Snowflake has a platform, and they've just defined the architecture, but we're not talking about infrastructure here, obviously, we're talking about something else. >> Well, I think that the Snowflake talks about, what he talks about, security and data, you're going to start to see the early movement around areas that are very spanning oriented, and I think that's the beginning of the trend and I think there's going to be a lot more, I think on the infrastructure side. And to your point about the platform architecture, that's actually a really good thought exercise because it actually makes you think about what you're designing in the first place, and that's why I want to get your reaction. >> Quote from- >> Well I just have to interrupt since, later on, you're going to hear from near Nir Zuk of Palo Alto Network. He says architecture and security historically, they don't go hand in hand, 'cause it's a big mess. >> It depends if you're whacking the mole or you actually proactively building something. Well Kit, I want to get your reaction from a quote from someone in our community who said about Supercloud, you know, "The Supercloud's great, there are issues around computer science rigors, and customer requirements." So, there's some issues around the science itself as well as not just listen to the customer, 'cause if that's the case, we'd have a better database, a better Oracle, right, so, but there's other, this tech involved, new tech. We need an open architecture with universal data modeling interconnecting among them, connectivity is a part of security, and then, once we get through that gate, figuring out the technical, the data, and the customer requirements, they say "Supercloud should be a loosely coupled platform with open architecture, plug and play, specialized services, ready for optimization, automation that can stand the test of time." What's your reaction to that sentiment? You like it, is that, does that sound good? >> Yeah, no, broadly aligns with my thinking, I think, and what I see from talking with customers as well. I mean, I like the, again, the, you know, listening to customer needs, prioritizing those things, focusing on some of the connective tissue networking, and data and some of these aspects talking about the open architecture, the interoperability, those are all things I think are absolutely critical. And then, yeah, like I think at the end. >> On the computer science side, do you see some science and engineering things that need to be engineered differently? We heard databases are radically going to change and that are inadequate for the new architecture. What are some of the things like that, from a science standpoint? >> Yeah, yeah, yeah. Some of the more academic research type things. >> More tech, or more better tech or is it? >> Yeah, look, absolutely. I mean I think that there's a bunch around, certainly around the data piece, around, you know, there's issues of data gravity, data mobility. How do you want to do that in a way that's performant? There's definitely issues around security as well. Like how do you enable like trust in these environments, there's got to be some sort of hardware rooted trusts, and you know, a whole bunch of various types of aspects there. >> So, a lot of work still be done. >> Yes, I think so. And that's why I look at this as, this is not a one year thing, or you know, it's going to be multi-years, and I think again, it's about all of us in the industry working together to come to an aligned picture of what that looks like. >> So, as the world's moved from private cloud to public cloud and now Cross-cloud services, supercloud, metacloud, whatever you want to call it, how have you sort of changed the way engineering's organized, developers sort of approached the problem? Has it changed and how? >> Yeah, absolutely. So, you know, it's funny, we at VMware, going through the same challenges as our customers and you know, any business, right? We use multiple clouds, we got a big, of course, on-prem footprint. You know, what we're doing is similar to what I see in many other customers, which, you see the evolution of a platform team, and so the platform team is really in charge of trying to develop a lot of these underlying services to allow our lines of business, our product teams, to be able to move as quickly as possible, to focus on the building, while we help with a lot of the operational overheads, right? We maintain security, compliance, all these other things. We also deal with, yeah, just making the developer's life as simple as possible. So, they do need to know some stuff about, you know, each public cloud they're using, those public cloud services, but at the same, time we can abstract a lot of the details they don't need to be in. So, I think this sort of delineation or separation, I should say, between the underlying platform team and the product teams is a very, very common pattern. >> You know, I noticed the four layers you talked about were observability, infrastructure, security and developers, on that slide, the last slide you had at the top, that was kind of the abstraction key areas that you guys at VMware are working? >> Those were just some groupings that we've come up with, but we like to debate them. >> I noticed data's in every one of them. >> Yeah, yep, data is key. >> It's not like, so, back to the data questions that security is called out as a pillar. Observability is just kind of watching everything, but it's all pretty much data driven. Of the four layers that you see, I take that as areas that you can. >> Standardize. >> Consistently rely on to have standard services. >> Yes. >> Which one do you start with? What's the, is there order of operations? >> Well, that's, I mean. >> 'Cause I think infrastructure's number one, but you had observability, you need to know what's going on. >> Yeah, well it really, it's highly dependent. Again, it depends on the business that we talk to and what, I mean, it really goes back to, what are your business priorities, right? And we have some customers who may want to get out of a data center, they want to evacuate the data center, and so what they want is then, consistent infrastructure, so they can just move those applications up to the cloud. They don't want to have to refactor them and we'll do it later, but there's an immediate and sort of urgent problem that they have. Other customers I talk to, you know, security becomes top of mind, or maybe compliance, because they're in a regulated industry. So, those are the sort of services they want to prioritize. So, I would say there is no single right answer, no one size fits all. The point about this architecture is really around the optionality of it, as it allows you as a business to decide what's most important and where you want to prioritize. >> How about the deployment models kit? Do, does a customer have that flexibility from a deployment model standpoint or do I have to, you know, approach it a specific way? Can you address that? >> Yeah, I mean deployment models, you're talking about how they how they consume? >> So, for instance, yeah, running a control plane in the cloud. >> Got it, got it. >> And communicating elsewhere or having a single global instance or instantiating that instance, and? >> So, that's a good point actually, and you know, the white paper that we released back in August, around this sort of concept, the Cross-cloud service. This is some of the stuff we need to figure out as an industry. So, you know when we talk about a Cross-cloud service, we can mean actually any of the things you just talked about. It could be a single instance that runs, let's say in one public cloud, but it supports all of 'em. Or it could be one that's multi-instance and that runs in each of the clouds, and that customers can take dependencies on whichever one, depending on what their use cases are or the, even going further than that, there's a type of Cross-cloud service that could actually be instantiated even in an air gapped or offline environment, and we have many, many businesses, especially heavily regulated ones that have that requirement, so I think, you know. >> Global don't forget global, regions, locales. >> Yeah, there's all sorts of performance latency issues that can be concerned about. So, most services today are the former, there are single sort of instance or set of instances within a single cloud that support multiple clouds, but I think what we're doing and where we're going with, you know, things like what we see with Kubernetes and service meshes and all these things, will better enable folks to hit these different types of cross-cloud service architectures. So, today, you as a customer probably wouldn't have too much choice, but where we're going, you'll see a lot more choice in the future. >> If you had to summarize for folks watching the importance of Supercloud movement, multi-cloud, cross-cloud services, as an industry in flexible, 'cause I'm always riffing on the whole old school network protocol stacks that got disrupted by TCP/IP, that's a little bit dated, we got people on the chat that are like, you know, 20 years old that weren't even born then. So, but this is a, one of those inflection points that's once in a generation inflection point, I'm sure you agree. What scoped the order of magnitude of the change and the opportunity around the marketplace, the business models, the technology, and ultimately benefits the society. >> Yeah. Wow. Getting bigger. >> You have 10 seconds, go. >> I know. Yeah. (laughing) No, look, so I think it is what we're seeing is really the next phase of what you might call cloud, right? This notion of delivering services, the way they've been packaged together, traditionally by the hyperscalers is now being challenged. and what we're seeing is really opening that up to new levels of innovation, and I think that will be huge for businesses because it'll help meet them where they are. Instead of needing to contort the businesses to, you know, make it work with the technology, the technology will support the business and where it's going. Give people more optionality, more flexibility in order to get there, and I think in the end, for us as individuals, it will just make for better experiences, right? You can get better performance, better interactivity, given that devices are so much of what we do, and so much of what we interact with all the time. This sort of flexibility and optionality will fundamentally better for us as individuals in our experiences. >> And we're seeing that with ChatGPT, everyone's talking about, just early days. There'll be more and more of things like that, that are next gen, like obviously like, wow, that's a fall out of your chair moment. >> It'll be the next wave of innovation that's unleashed. >> All right, Kit Colbert, thanks for coming on and sharing and exploring the Supercloud architecture, Cloud Chaos, the Cloud Smart, there's a transition progression happening and it's happening fast. This is the supercloud wave. If you're not on this wave, you'll be driftwood. That's a Pat Gelsinger quote on theCUBE. This is theCUBE Be right back with more Supercloud coverage, here in Palo Alto after this break. (upbeat music) (upbeat music continues)

(upbeat music) >> Good afternoon. theCUBE is live at VMware Explorer. Lisa Martin here in San Francisco with Dave Nicholson. This is our second day of coverage talking all things VMware and it's ecosystem. We're excited to welcome from DXC Technology, James Bion, Hybrid Cloud and Multi Cloud Offering manager to have a conversation next. Welcome to the program. >> Thank you very much. >> Welcome. >> Talk to us a little bit about before we get into the VMware partnership, what's new at DXC? What's going on? >> So DXC is really evolving and revitalizing into more of a cloud orientated company. So we're already driving change in our customers at the moment. We take them on that cloud journey, but we're taking them in the right way, in a structured mannered way. So we are really excited about it, we're kicking off our Cloud First type, Cloud Right sort of story and helping customers on that journey. >> Yesterday in the keynote, VMware was talking about customers are on this Cloud chaos phase, they want to get to Cloud Smart. You're saying they want to get to Cloud Right. Talk to us about what DXC Cloud Right is, what does it mean? What does it enable businesses to achieve? >> That's a very good question. So DXC has come up with this concept of Cloud Right, we looked at it from a services and outcome. So what do customers want to achieve? And how do we get it successfully? This is not a technology conversation, this is about putting the right workloads at the right place, at the right time, at the right cost to get the right value for your business. It's not about just doing it for the sake of doing it, okay. There's a lot of changes it's not technology only you've got to change how people operate. You've got to work through the organizational change. You need to ensure that you have the right security in place to maintain it. And it's about value, really about value proposition. So we don't just focus on cost, we focus on operations of it, we focus on security of it. We focus on ensuring the value proposition of it and putting not just for one Cloud, it's the right place. Big focus on Hybrid and Multi Cloud solutions in particular, we're very excited about what's happening with VMware Cloud on maybe AWS or et cetera because we see there a real dynamic change for our customers where they can transition across to the right Cloud services, at the right time, at the right place, but minimal disruption to the actual operation of their business. Very easy to move a workload into that place using the same skilled resources, the same tools, the same environment that you have had for many years, the same SLAs. Customers don't want a variance in their SLAs, they just want an outcome at a right price and the right time. >> Right, what are some of the things going on with the VMware partnership and anything you know, here we are at this the event called the theme is "The Center of the Multi Cloud Universe", which I keep saying sounds like a Marvel movie, I think there needs to be some superheroes here. But how is DXC working with VMware to help customers that are in Multi Cloud by default, not by design? >> That's a very good one. So DXC works jointly with VMware for more than a thousand clients out there. Wide diversity of different clients. We go to market together, we work collaboratively to put roadmaps in place for our clients, it's a unified team. On top of that, we have an extremely good VMware practice, joint working VMware team working directly with DXC dedicated resources and we deliver real value for clients. For example, we have a customer experience zone, we have a customer innovation zone so we can run proof of concepts on all the different VMware technologies for customers. If they want to try something different, try and push the boundaries a little bit with the VMware products, we can do that for them. But at the end of the day we deliver outcome based services. We are not there to deliver a piece of software, but a technology which show the customer the value of the service that they've been receiving within that. So we bring the VMware fantastic technologies in and then we bring the DXC managed services which we do so well and we look after our customers and do the right thing for our customers. >> So what does the go-to market strategy look like from a DXC perspective? We say that there are a finite number of strategic seats at the customer table. DXC has longstanding deep relationships with customers, so does VMware and probably over a shorter period of time, the Hyper scale Cloud Providers. How are you approaching these relationships with customers? Is it you bringing in your friends from the cloud? Is it the cloud bringing in their friend DXC? What does it look like? >> So we have relationships with all of them, but were agnostic. So we are the people who bring it all together into that unified platform and services that the customers expect. VMware will bring us certainly to the table and we'll bring VMware to the table. Equally, we work very collaboratively with all the cloud providers and we work in deals together. They bring us deals, we bring them deals. So it works extremely well from that perspective, but of course it's a multi-cloud world these days. We don't just deal with one cloud provider, we'll normally have all of the different services to find the right place for our customers. >> Now, one thing that that's been mentioned from DXC is this idea that Cloud First which has been sort of a mantra that scores you points if you're a CIO lately, maybe that's not the best way to wake up in the morning. Why not saying, Cloud First? >> So we have a lot of clients who who've tried that Cloud First journey and they've aggressively taken on migration of workloads. And now that they've settled in a few of those they're discovering maybe the ROI isn't quite what they expected it was going to be. That transformation takes a long time, a very long time. We've seen some of the numbers around averaging a hundred apps can take up to seven years to transition and transform, that's a long time. It makes you almost less agile by doing the transformation quite ironically. So DXC's Cloud Right program really helps you to ensure that you assess those workloads correctly, you target the ones that are going to give you the best business value, possibly the best return on investment using our Cloud and advisory practice to do that. And then obviously off the back of that we've got our migration teams and our run services and our application modernization factories and our application platforms for that. So DXC Cloud Right can certainly help our customers on that journey and get that sort of Hybrid Multi Cloud solution that suits their particular outcomes, not just one Cloud provider. >> So Cloud Right isn't just Cloud migration? >> No. >> People sometimes confuse digital transformation with Cloud migration. >> Correct. >> So to be clear Cloud Right and DXC has the ability to work with customers on not just, oh, here, this is how we box it up and ship it out, but what makes sense to box up and ship out. >> Correct, and it's all about that whole end to end life cycle. Remember, this is not just a technology conversation, this is an end to end business conversation. It's the outcomes are important, not the technology. That's why you have good partners like DXC who will help you on that technology journey. >> Let's talk about in the dynamics of the market the last couple of years, we saw so many customers in every industry race to the Cloud, race to digitally transform. You bring up a good point of people interchangeably talking about digital transformation, Cloud migration, but we saw the massive adoption of SaaS technologies. What are you seeing? Are you seeing customers in that sort of Cloud chaos as VMware calls it? That you're coming in with the Cloud Right approach saying, let's actually figure out, you may have done this because of the pandemic maybe it was accelerated, you needed to facilitate collaboration or whatnot, but actually this is the right approach. Are you seeing a lot of customers in that situation? >> We are certainly seeing some customers going into that chaos world. Some of them are still in the early stages of their journey and are taking a more cautious step towards in particular, the companies that would die on systems to be up available all the time. Others have gone too far, the other are in extreme are in the chaos world. And our Cloud Right program will certainly help them to pull their chaos back in, identify what workloads are potentially running in the wrong place, get the framework in place for ensuring that security and governance is in place. Ensuring that we don't have a cost spend blowout in particular, make sure that security is key to everything that we do and operations is key to everything we do. We have our own intelligent Platform X, it's called, our service management platform which is really the engine that sits behind our delivery mechanism. And that's got a whole lot of AI analytics engines in there to identify things and proactively identify workload placements, workload repairs, scripting, and hyper automation behind that too, to keep available here and there. And that's really some of our Cloud Right story, it's not just sorting out the mess, it's sorting out and then running it for you in the right way. >> So what does a typical, a customer engagement look like for a customer in that situation? >> So we would obviously engage our client right advisory team and they would come in and sit down with your application owners, sit down with the business units, identify what success needs to look like. They do all the discovery, they'll run it through our engines to identify what workloads are in the right place, should go to the right place. Just 'cause you can do something doesn't mean you should do something and that's an important thing. So we will come back with that and say, this is where I think your cloud roadmap journey should be. And obviously that takes an intuitive process, but we then can pick off the key topics early at the right time and that low hanging fruit that's really going to drive that value for the customer. >> And where are your customer conversations these days? I mean from a Cloud perspective, digital transformation, we're seeing everything escalate up the C-suite? Are you engaging the executives in this conversation so that they really want to facilitate, let's do things the right way that's the most efficient that allows us as a business to do what we're best at? >> So where we've seen programs fail is where we don't have executive leadership and brought in from day one. So if you don't have that executive and business driver and business leadership, then you're definitely not going to be successful. So to answer your question, yes, of course we are, but we also working directly with the IT departments as well. >> So you just brought up an insight executive alignment, critically important. Based on what you've experienced in the real world, contrast that with the sort of message to the world that we hear constantly about Cloud and IT, what would be the most shocking thing that you can share with us that people might not be aware of? It's like what shocks you the most about the disconnect between what everybody talks about and the reality on the ground? Don't name any names of anyone, but give us an example of the like, this is what's really going on. >> So, we certainly are seeing that big sort of move into Cloud quickly, okay. And then the big bill shock comes and just moving a workload across doesn't mean you're in Cloud, it's a transition and transformation to the SaaS and power services, it's where you get your true value out of cloud. So the concept that just 'cause it's in Cloud it's cheap is not always the case. Doing it right in Cloud is definitely going to have some cost value, but it's going to bring other additional values to their business. It's going to give them agility, it's going to give them resilience. So if you look at all three of those platforms cost, agility, and resilience and live across all three of those, then you're definitely going to get the best outcomes. And we've certainly seen some of those where they haven't taken all of those into consideration, quite often it's cost is what drives it, not the other two. And if you can't keep operations up working efficiently then you are in a lot of trouble. >> So Cloud wrong comes with sticker shock. >> It certainly does. >> What's on the horizon for DXC? >> We're certainly seeing a big drive towards apps modernization and certainly help our customers on that journey. DXC is definitely a Cloud company, may that be on Hybrid Cloud, Private Cloud, Public Cloud, DXC is certainly leading that edge and pushing it forward. >> Excellent, James, thank you so much for joining us on the program today talking about what Cloud Right is, the right approach, how you're helping customers really get to that right approach with the people, the processes, and the technology. We appreciate your time. >> Thank you very much. >> For our guest and Dave Nicholson, I'm Lisa Martin. You're watching theCUBE live from VMware Explorer, 2022. Our next guest joins us momentarily so don't change the channel. (upbeat music)

(upbeat music) >> Hey everyone. Welcome back to San Francisco, VMware Explorer 2022, Lisa Martin and Dave Nicholson here. We've been having some great conversations today. Lots of news coming out about VMware and its partner ecosystem. We're going to have another conversation about that next. Please welcome two guests to the program, Chance Bingen, technical marketing engineer at NetApp and Jason Massae, staff technical marketing architect, storage and vVols at VMware. Guys, welcome to the program. >> Thanks. >> Glad to be here. >> It's nice to be back in person. >> It is. It's very nice. Oh my gosh. >> And we're hearing there about 7,000 to 10,000 people here, when I was in the Keynote, this morning it was definitely standing room only. >> Yeah, yeah. You've definitely seen the numbers ticked up at the last minute. It was good to see that. It's good, I think a lot of people have really wanted to get back, get that one on one that face to face. There's nothing like being able to, you know, talk to, the experts, talk to the vendors, you know, see your comrades. I mean, that's the thing. I mean, we've seen people that I haven't seen for years, even on my own team, so really good to be back into it. >> It is and it was lots of news coming out this morning during the Keynote. My goodness. But Jason, talk to me, the NetApp and VMware folks had been in tight partnership for a long time. Talk to me about, get both of your perspective from a technical perspective about the depth of the partnership. >> Yeah, so actually NetApp was one of the original design partners for vVols. And with that, now with some of the stuff we're doing with more current stuff with virtual volumes is, NetApp is back and we've got some pretty neat stuff that we've been working on with vVols. And NetApp's got some pretty neat stuff that they've been working on to enable the customers with more features, more functionality with the virtual volume functionality. >> Yeah, absolutely. >> Give us a quick primer on what is a vVol? What is a virtual volume? How does it fit into the, into this stack of stuff that we do in IT? >> Yeah. So the easiest way to kind of think of what a vVol is or a virtual volume is you can think of it kind of like an RDM, those row device map, which is kind of a four letter word. We don't really like those, but the idea is that object, that virtual volume is native on the array and presented directly to the VM. But now what we do is we're presenting all of the storage array features up to vSphere and we're managing those storage features via policy based management. But instead of applying storage capabilities at a data store level, we're now applying them at a VM or an application level. So you can have one data store and multiple VMs, and every VM can have a different storage capability managed by a policy that the VI admin gets to manage now. So he doesn't have to go to the storage admin to say, I need a new line, or I need a new volume. He can just go in and create a policy or change a policy. And now that storage capability is applied to the VM or the application. >> Yeah. One thing I'd like to add to that is you can mentioned the word capabilities. >> So we look at the actual data protocols, whether they're file based or block based, you know, I-scuzzy, fiber channel, whatever the case might be. Those protocols have defined sets of capabilities and attributes and things they can expose. What vVols along with the VASA protocol brings to the table is the ability to expose things that are just impossible to expose via the data protocols themselves. So that the, actual nature of the array, what kind of array is it? What's it capable of doing? What is the nature of, you know, encryption? You know, is this going to be a secure, encrypted data store? Is it going to be something else? It just allows you to do so much more with the advanced capabilities that modern storage arrays have than you could ever do if you were just using the data protocols by themselves. >> Right? Yeah. Kind of under that same context. If you think about before with traditional storage, the vSphere or the array really doesn't understand what's going on underlying storage, but with vVols the array and vSphere completely understand at a disc level even, how that VM should be treated. So that helps the storage admin. Storage admin can now go in and see a specific disc of a VM and see the performance on the array. They can go in the array and see, oh, this disc on this VM has got performance issues or needs to be encrypted, or here's the size of that disc. And you couldn't easily see that with your traditional storage. So there's really a lot of benefits and it frees up a lot of time for the storage administrator and enables the VI admin to be able to do a lot of the storage management. >> So there have been, there been a lot of movements over the last decade in the realm of software defined storage. Where essentially all of the things that you are talking about are completely abstracted from the underlying hardware. In this case, you're leveraging the horsepower, if you will and the intelligence of a storage array that has a lot of horsepower and intelligence, and you're accessing those features. You mentioned encryption, whether if you're doing a snapshot or something like that, what's interesting here is it kind of maps to what we're looking at now, which is the trend in the direction of things like DPUs. >> If you go back in history long enough, we had the, you know, the TOE, NIC, TCP offload, you know, the idea of, hey, you know what, what if we had a smart device with its own brain power and we leveraged it. Well, you guys have been doing that from a vVols all perspective with NetApp filers, for lack of better term. For how long now, when did, when were they originally? >> 6.0 it was so it's been what? 11, 12 years. Something like that. >> It's been a while. So yeah, but it's been a decade or so. >> Mm-hmm >> So what's on the frontier. What's the latest there in terms of, in terms of cool stuff that's coming out. >> So actually today, in one of the things that we worked with NetApp that was part of the design partnership was, you know, the NVMe over Fabric protocol has become very popular to extend that functionality of all flash to the, an external array. And now we announce today, in including with that NVMe over Fabrics, you can now do vVols with NVMe over Fabrics. And again, that was something that we worked with NetApp to be a design partner for them. >> That's right. We're very excited about it. We've always been, you know, NVMe been something we've been very proud of for a while. Delivering the first end to end NVMe stack from inside the host, through the fabric, to the array, with the arrays front ports, all the way to the disc on the backend. So we're very excited about that. >> So target market joint NetApp, VMware customers, I presume. >> Really it's, the key here that I like to make sure customers understand is to see that vVols are on the leading edge of VMware's storage design. Some tend to think that maybe vVols wasn't the primary focus, but actually now it is the primary focus. Now I always like to give the caveat that VMFS and NFS are not going away. Those are still very much stuff that we work on. It's just that most of the engineering focus is on virtual volumes or vVols. >> Yeah. Similarly, when you talk about and you're sort of alluding to vSAN when we start talking about VMFS and things like that. >> Yeah. >> Architecturally, we've been talking to folks about the recent announcements with capabilities within AWS. You know, NetApp in AWS for VMware environments. Breaking out of the stranglehold that the, oh, you want more storage, you must buy more CPU and memory, building block process entails. The reality is no matter what you do with vSAN, you're going to have certain constraints that go away when now you have the option to leverage storage from the NetApp filers. >> Yeah, absolutely. >> So how does, how do vVols play in the cloud strategy moving forward? >> Well, so one of the things that we do with, vVols currently is mostly On-prem. But when you have the storage architecture, that vVols gives you as far as individual objects, it makes it much easier to migrate up into the cloud because you're not trying to migrate individual VMs that are on another type of system, whatever it might be, those objects are already their own entity. Right, so cloud, Tanzu, those type of things, those vVol objects are already their own entity. So it makes it very easy to migrate them on and off prem. >> So Chance talk to us a little bit about this from NetApp's perspective. You're in customer conversations, who are you talking to? Is this primarily an engineering conversation? Has this gone up the stack in terms of customers are finding themselves in this default multi-cloud environment? >> Yeah, so interestingly, when I talk to customers these days they are almost all either on a journey to a hybrid multi-cloud or they're in some kind of phase of transforming themselves into their own hyperscaler, right? They're be adopting a cloud service provider model and vVols is a perfect fit for that kind of model, because you have the ability to offer different tiers of service, different qualities of service with VM granular controls or VMDK granular controls, even. And even if you look at First Class Disc, right? Which is something that came out largely to support Tanzu, I think which fantastic use case for vVols as well there, but that gives you the ability to offer something like Amazon EBS, right? You can offer Amazon EBS in a native VMware stack using First Class Discs and vVols. And you're able to apply things like quality of service with that granular control that allows you to guarantee that customer the disc that they bought and paid for. They're going to get the IOPS that they're paying for because you're applying those QoS policies directly to that object on the array. And instead of having to worry about is the array going to be able to handle it? Are you going to have one VM that consumes all your IO, you know? You don't have to worry about that with vVols because you've got that integration with the array's native quality controls. >> And Chance what's in this for me as a customer? I'm hearing productivity, I'm hearing cost savings, control efficiency. Talk to me about the benefits in it for the folks that you're talking to. >> Yeah, absolutely. A lot of times it comes down to, you know I mentioned like the cloud service provider model, right? When you're looking to build a robust service catalog and you're able, you want to be able to meet all these like, we mentioned Tanzu, right? Containers as a service, you're able to provide the persistent volumes for your Kubernetes containers that are again, these native objects on the array and you have these fine grain controls, but it's handled at massive scale because it's all handled by storage policies, Kubernetes storage classes, which are natively mapped to VM storage policies through Tanzu. So it just, it gives you the ability to offer all of these services in a, again a rich and robust contents catalog. >> So what are you doing? So you mentioned a couple of things in terms of using array based quality of service. So give me an example of how you're avoiding issues of contention and over subscription in an environment where I'm an administrator and I've got this virtual volume that's servicing this VM or this app on this VM. What kind of visibility do I have down into the actual resources because look at the end of that chain there's a physical resource. And that physical resource represents, what? IOPS and bandwidth and latency and throughput and all of this bundle of things. So how do you avoid colliding with others who are trying to carve vVols out of this world? >> You mean like a noisy neighbor type of thing? >> Yeah. Yeah. >> So that's actually one of the big benefits that you get with vVols is that because those vial objects are native on the array, they're not sharing a loan or a volume. They're not sharing a resource. The only resource they're actually sharing is the array itself. So you don't get that typical noisy neighbor where this one's using all the resources of that volume because really you're looking out at the all encompassing array. And so a storage administrator and the VI admin have a lot more insight. The VI admin can now go to the storage admin if there's say a debugging issue, they want to find a problem. The storage admin now can see those individual objects and say, oh, well this VM, it's not really this, it's not all the discs. It's just disc number two or disc number three or they can actually see at a single disc level on the array, the performance, the latency, you know, the QS, all that stuff. >> Oh, absolutely. >> And that really is what, it frees up at the storage admin's time because the debugging is so much more simple. And it also allows the storage admin a lot more insight. Right? They know those, what's the problem. If you were typically looking at a loaner volume, they don't really know what's going on inside that and neither does the array. But with vVols, the array knows what each disc and how it's supposed to be treated based on the policies that the customer defines. So if one VM is supposed to have a certain QS and another VM isn't. The array knows that that VM, if it goes above it, it's going to be like, nope, you can't have those resources. You weren't granted those resources, but this one was. So you have much more control. And again, it's at an application or a VM level. >> And it's still, it's fairly dynamically configurable. I spoke to a customer just the other day. They are a cloud service provider. And what they do is their customers are able to go in and change their quality of service. So they go into that service portal and they say, okay, I'm paying for gold and I want platinum and they'll go in. They know that they've got a certain time where they need more IO capacity. So they'll go in, they'll pay the fee, increase that capability. And then when they don't need it anymore, they'll downgrade again. >> Okay, so that assumes some ability at the array level to do some sort of resource sharing and balancing to be able to go out and get, say more IO. Because again, fundamentally, if you have a virtual volume, that's drawing its resources from five storage devices, whether those are SSD based or NVMe or spinning disc that represents a finite it amount of resource. The assumption is if you're saying that the array is the pool that you need to worry about, that assumes the array has the ability to go beyond here, based on a policy. >> So that's how it works. It does... >> Well, essentially. I mean, you can't outrun physics. So if the array can't go faster, but the idea is that you understand the performance profile of your array and then you create your service tiers appropriately. >> Okay. >> Yeah. And one of the big benefits is like Chance was saying, if you want to change a profile that used to be a Storage vMotion to a different data store. Now it's just a policy change. The storage admin doesn't have to do anything. The VI admin just changes the policy. And then the array understands, oh, I now need to treat that different. And that's exactly what Chance was talking about in that cloud provider situation, where today I'm using a 100,000 IOPS. I need to use 200,000 tomorrow for special, whatever it is, but I only need to use it for tomorrow. So they don't have to move anything. They just change the policy for that time. And then they change it back. They don't have to do anything on the array itself. They don't have to change anything physically on the VM. It's just a policy change. And that's really where you get that dynamic control of the storage capability. >> So as business dynamics are changing and I'm thinking of like black Friday or Prime day, being able to dial things up and dial it down, they have the ability to do that with a policy. >> Yes. >> Exactly. >> So huge time savings there. >> Oh, it's huge. Yeah. >> Yeah. >> And it simplifies because now, I don't have to have multiple data stores. You can have one data store, all your VMs in there. You can limit test and dev and you can maximize business critical applications. Again, all via policy. So you've simplified your infrastructure. You've gone to more of a programmatic approach of managing your storage capabilities. But you're now managing at the VM level. >> So we mentioned that the cloud chaos (indistinct) that was mentioned this morning during the Keynote and we're saying a lot of customers are still in this cloud chaos phase. They want to get to Cloud Smart. How is this going to be one of those tools that helps customers pull the levers, dial the knobs, to be able to get to eventually, Cloud Smart. >> I could go on for this for hours. (Lisa Laughs) (Chance chuckles) This is really what simplifies storage. Because typically when you use traditional storage, you're going to have to figure out that this data store has this capability or another example, as you mentioned was Tanzu. If you're managing persistent volumes and you're not using something like vVols, if you want to get a certain storage capability, you have to either tag it or you have to create that data store with that capability. All of that goes away when you use vVols. So now that chaos of multiple data stores, multiple lines or multiple volumes, all that stuff goes away. So now you're simplifying your infrastructure, you have a programmatic approach to managing your storage and you can use it for all of your different types of workloads. So cloud, Kubernetes, persistent volumes, all that type of stuff. And again, all being managed via a simple and again, programmatic approach. So you could automate this. You know today, like you said, black Friday. Okay, Black, Friday's coming up. I want to change the policy. You could automate that. So you don't even have to go in and physically make the change of the policy now. You just say on Fridays, change it to this policy on Sunday night, change it back. >> Yep. >> Again, that's not something you can do with traditional storage. >> Okay. >> And I think from a simplification standpoint as well, you know, I was telling you about that other customer a couple days ago, they were running into the inability to grow beyond the bounds of VMFS file systems for very, very large VMs. And so what I talked to them about was look, if you go to vVols, you're not bound by file systems anymore. You have the capacity of the array and you can have VM discs up to 62 terabytes, you know, as many as you want. And it doesn't matter what they fit in because we can fit them all. So it's, to be able to, and that's some of our largest customers, the reason they go with vVols is to be able to grow beyond the bounds of traditional storage, anything like path limits, you know. That's something you have to contend with. >> Path limits, line limits, all that stuff. Typically just disappears with vVols. >> All those limits go away. Guys- >> They go away. >> Amazing. Congratulations on the work that you guys have done. Thank you so much for joining us on theCUBE talking about the value in it for customers and obviously the technical depths of the NetApp, VMware relationship. Guys, we appreciate your time. >> Yeah, thanks for having us on. >> Our pleasure. For my guests and Dave Nicholson. I'm Lisa Martin. You're watching theCUBE live from VMware Explorer 2022, Dave and I will be right back with our next guest. So stick around. (upbeat music)

>> live from Washington, D. C. It's the Cube covering a ws public sector summit. She wrote to you by Amazon Web services. >> Welcome back to the cubes. Live coverage of the ES W s Public Sector summit here in Washington D. C. At the 10th annual eight of the U. S. Public sector summit. I'm your host Rebecca Night, along with my co host, John Farrier. We're joined by Adelaide O'Brien. She is research director. Government digital transformation strategies at I. D. C. Government incites Thanks so much for coming on the show. Adelaide. >> Rebecca for having me. It's I'm pleased to be here today, >> so I want to just start really with just picking your brain about about the topic of this conference, which is about modernization of government. What is the state of play? How Where do you Where do you see things from where you sit? >> Well, as you know, the federal government right now has been under about a 10 year directive to go cloud first. And what we've seen is, you know, a lot of agencies not all but some of them have a struggled with that, Uh, and it hasn't really had the momentum of the velocity that as an analyst, I I'd like to see and s o last year. The current federal seo says that can put out a policy, and it was about actually moving to Cloud Smart. So it wasn't just to do cloud to be more efficient to save some of that money. That about 75,000,000 that's spent on maintaining legacy equipment. But it was actually thinking about using cloud to be very, very agile to help deliver better citizen services. And what's interesting is this. This whole concept of cloud smart is also very supportive. The Modernization Technology Act as well as the report to the president on it. Modernization. So last year we saw both executive and legislative support for agencies to move to cloud. >> So, as you said, it doesn't. But it's still from where you sit. Doesn't analyst. It still doesn't quite have the momentum and the velocity that you'd like to see. What do you see as the biggest obstacles? >> Well, and this was actually identified in Cloud Smart and yesterday and today I heard a lot of agencies talking about thes three aspects, and I think you know, 10 a W s is a great place to help them. So one of the first is security. And we know when agencies, you know, were first Ask Goto the cloud security was, you know, the biggest barrier in their organization to cloud. And and so I think it was the 3rd 8 of US Conference. It was actually in this building, and I know there's been but I wasn't the first to and I could remember is an analyst. I was so pleased that Teresa had Roger Baker, the CEO of Health and Human Services on stage, and they were talking about getting fed Reum certification, and I think it was one of the first. And it was it was thrilling that such a large agency had invested so much time and money about working with eight of us to get February certification. So to me that that was like, you know, an initial pushing a start, so security is just so so important. And now you've got, you know, so many different software providers working with Amazon. Eight of us on security on DH. Even today, at one of the breakout sessions, the senses really talked about because the CIA moved to eight of us, and they put their most sensitive information in the cloud they felt comfortable with putting the personally identifiable information in the cloud. I'II our census data information. >> If it's good enough for that for that kind of information, I can I can put my business >> exactly there, Tio. Exactly >> the question I want to get on the comm on the research side is competition of opportunities. Is Old Wick about old gore Amazon? Always the old guard, The old way of doing things. They're pretty much in the new class. Dev Ops. We've seen that on the enterprise side Certainly start ups, any jazz, these examples like Airbnb. You see those at conferences over the years that we have the example of these cloud Native Cos. How does government now look at suppliers as partners? Because the big debate is you picked the right cloud for the right workload. Work lotion to find cloud architecture. You can't just split clouds up amongst Microsoft, Google, Amazon and oracles of the world. The whole multi vendor equation shifts in this new paradigm. How do you see that playing out? >> Yes, it does. But I also see and what I've heard today over the last two days is, you know, agencies are actually looking for a partner who can grow with them and learn with them. And I heard that over and over again. You know, they want a cloud provider that you know, has skin in the game, and that actually helps them. And we've seen that they also want a cloud provider that's innovative. And, you know, one of my concerns is I learned about how you know, scale. Everything's about scale today, right? And how Amazon now has eight of us has scaled up so fast over the last couple of years and all the innovations that they're able to provide. And so the question is, how can you keep that culture alive? And, you know, it's kind of like that start up culture at eight of us, right? How can you keep that alive? And, you know, I think the answer did today and, you know, I wish I would have thought about the question in the way he talked about it. You know, when you get big, you get conservative right, because you have too much to lose and too much is at stake. and, you know, as an analyst, I'm seeing eight of us. Not only is a growing fantastically, but it's innovating, and I think that's what gives you than this innovation. The you know, you don't have to be a a Silicon Valley software company to innovate, and I think part of it comes from I think Theresa's said that 95% of A W S's roadmap is based upon what they hear from their customers. So you know that that ear to the ground knowing the government business, federal, state, local, is so, so >> important. This trend that's helping them to also is the move to sass with capabilities on digital using suffers a service business model. So again, it's all kind of timed up beautifully for these agencies that were slow to move in the past. This is an analyst, er, >> yeah, so So security is one of the things on Cloud Smart, and I think that was one of the biggest, biggest barriers to momentum. But the others acquisition. So there's three things about clouds smart that agencies are to pay attention to, and I think you know what's really helped in the acquisition is, you know, the standardization and not only the federal up certification. And, you know, eight of us is healthy cloud providers. Software's the service providers get Fed Ram certification. And so, in the end, this is announced at the conference last year of a TIO on a W s. Right, because it's an arduous process. If you don't know what you're doing, it can cost you a lot of money and take a lot of time. So, you know, eight of us is working with his partners, and that's all good for the government sector, right? Because the more vendors that go through certification, the more they trust them and the more they can trust, you know, the integrity of their data in the cloud. So the acquisition is the 2nd 1 But the 3rd 1 is the workforce, and I think you know, And he mentioned it today. You know, a lot of the resistance, and a lot of the inertia of cloud is not just the technology, it's training the workforce, and I, you know, I thought, it's so so important because it's not just an conversation any longer. Going to cloud is part of digital transformation. Is the foundation of it. And so that has to be a conversation with all levels of agency executives. And they have to agree Otherwise, you know, if you're innovating, you've got, you know, islands of innovation and you on the cloud you can start to Yes, you can pilot, but you can start to really get scale there and transform your whole business. And it's all about serving citizens better and innovating to serve them better and automating your processes. You know that's so important as well. >> So how would you describe the work force? I mean, when you think about the private sector, workforce, women, when in terms of cloud computing versus the government, you tend to think one is more bureaucratic. There is obviously more red tape may be slower moving. How What are you seeing? What are you hearing? >> Well, you know, at all levels of the workforce and especially in government, there's a big push now to automate everything. He and you know, the government at all levels. Federal state local realizes they're actually competing with the private sector for work source. And so, you know, historically, government would say, Well, what's the next skill and we better start preparing for that, right? What's what What's coming down the pike and we we need. And now it's like, How do we prepare for people who enter government and move in various different jobs and move in and out of government? And so when you think about that, that's a skill development and technology can help with that. But it's also a mindset of accepting the fact that people join government to serve, and they might leave and come back. And so that's very important, but also the in terms of cloud smart. The workforce has to be able to understand cloud and howto work with vendors, you know, and it's not necessarily, you know, owning your own equipment. But it's it's it's trusting your vendors and trusting them with your business and and how do you, you know, provide these solutions to the line of business folks? And in a way, I actually seen you the IT department become much more responsive to the line of business folks. And my advice, Teo government executives, especially the folks, is always think of yourself as a service right. Think of yourself as a service. You know that as a service to the line of business folks and, you know, help them understand what what they need, how they accomplished their mission. Maybe give them a short list of solutions to help them out, but really start tracking them. You know what they're accomplishing, and that will help fuel. Then you reinvestments help. You know where to spend your money next And really, you know, just fuel this whole mission accomplishment. >> One of the things that we've been talking a lot about on the Cube for for years is the new role of the chief data officer in any organizations. A lot of federal agencies air now, also putting in their own chief date officers. Can you talk a little bit about what you've seen and what and how they're being used? >> Yeah, so they're our chief data officers in the organization's it again. That's one of those skills were you know, government's going to compete with the private sector for them, and there's probably not enough to go around Andi. And so it's a very precious commodity. And, you know, it is especially like in your research organizations. You've got chief data officers there, but in a lot of the other areas. And, you know, especially in the civilian government, you may not be able to have your old, you know, chief Data officer. Right? You certainly have all the data, but you may not have someone like that. And that's where you know some of the things that that I that that I'm advising agencies to look for us who can help you, then give you some of these big data and you know, a I and ML solutions that your line of business folks Khun, start to interface and work with. And maybe you have Chief data officers set up the data fields initially, but that's where you've got to start to democracy eyes, you know, a I and m l. And because you're never gonna have enough Chief data officers in anyone organization to possibly calm through all of that data on DSO, that's again where technology can help. >> Great. Well, Adelaide, thank you so much for coming on the Cube. It's been a pleasure. Having you >> was great being here. Thank you so much. >> I'm Rebecca Knight for John Furrier. Stay tuned. We will have more of the cubes. Live coverage of a ws public sector summit