>> Live from New York, it's theCUBE, covering theCUBE New York City 2018. Brought to you by SiliconANGLE Media and its ecosystem partners. >> Hello, everyone, welcome back. This is theCUBE live in New York City for theCUBE NYC, #CUBENYC. This is our ninth year covering the big data ecosystem, which has now merged into cloud. All things coming together. It's really about AI, it's about developers, it's about operations, it's about data scientists. I'm John Furrier, my co-host Dave Vellante. Our next guest is Brent Compton, Technical Marketing Director for Storage Business at Red Hat. As you know, we cover Red Hat Summit and great to have the conversation. Open source, DevOps is the theme here. Brent, thanks for joining us, thanks for coming on. >> My pleasure, thank you. >> We've been talking about the role of AI and AI needs data and data needs storage, which is what you do, but if you look at what's going on in the marketplace, kind of an architectural shift. It's harder to find a cloud architect than it is to find diamonds these days. You can't find a good cloud architect. Cloud is driving a lot of the action. Data is a big part of that. What's Red Hat doing in this area and what's emerging for you guys in this data landscape? >> Really, the days of specialists are over. You mentioned it's more difficult to find a cloud architect than find diamonds. What we see is the infrastructure, it's become less about compute as storage and networking. It's the architect that can bring the confluence of those specialties together. One of the things that we see is people bringing their analytics workloads onto the common platforms where they've been running the rest of their enterprise applications. For instance, if they're running a lot of their enterprise applications on AWS, of course, they want to run their analytics workloads in AWS and that's EMRs long since in the history books. Likewise, if they're running a lot of their enterprise applications on OpenStack, it's natural that they want to run a lot of their analytics workloads on the same type of dynamically provisioned infrastructure. Emerging, of course, we just announced on Monday this week with Hortonworks and IBM, if they're running a lot of their enterprise applications on a Kubernetes substrate like OpenShift, they want to run their analytics workloads on that same kind of agile infrastructure. >> Talk about the private cloud impact and hybrid cloud because obviously we just talked to the CEO of Hortonworks. Normally it's about early days, about Hadoop, data legs and then data planes. They had a good vision. They're years into it, but I like what Hortonworks is doing. But he said Kubernetes, on a data show Kubernetes. Kubernetes is a multi-cloud, hybrid cloud concept, containers. This is really enabling a lot of value and you guys have OpenShift which became very successful over the past few years, the growth has been phenomenal. So congratulations, but it's pointing to a bigger trend and that is that the infrastructure software, the platform as a service is becoming the middleware, the glue, if you will, and Kubernetes and containers are facilitating a new architecture for developers and operators. How important is that with you guys, and what's the impact of the customer when they think, okay I'm going to have an agile DevOps environment, workload portability, but do I have to build that out? You mentioned people don't have to necessarily do that anymore. The trend has become on-premise. What's the impact of the customer as they hear Kubernetese and containers and the data conversation? >> You mentioned agile DevOps environment, workload portability so one of the things that customers come to us for is having that same thing, but infrastructure agnostic. They say, I don't want to be locked in. Love AWS, love Azure, but I don't want to be locked into those platforms. I want to have an abstraction layer for my Kubernetese layer that sits on top of those infrastructure platforms. As I bring my workloads, one-by-one, custom DevOps from a lift and shift of legacy apps onto that substrate, I want to have it be independent, private cloud or public cloud and, time permitting, we'll go into more details about what we've seen happening in the private cloud with analytics as well, which is effectively what brought us here today. The pattern that we've discovered with a lot of our large customers who are saying, hey, we're running OpenStack, they're large institutions that for lots of reasons they store a lot of their data on-premises saying, we want to use the utility compute model that OpenStack gives us as well as the shared data context that Ceph gives us. We want to use that same thing for our analytics workload. So effectively some of our large customers taught us this program. >> So they're building infrastructure for analytics essentially. >> That's what it is. >> One of the challenges with that is the data is everywhere. It's all in silos, it's locked in some server somewhere. First of all, am I overstating that problem and how are you seeing customers deal with that? What are some of the challenges that they're having and how are you guys helping? >> Perfect lead in, in fact, one of our large government customers, they recently sent us an unsolicited email after they deployed the first 10 petabytes in a deca petabyte solution. It's OpenStack based as well as Ceph based. Three taglines in their email. The first was releasing the lock on data. The second was releasing the lock on compute. And the third was releasing the lock on innovation. Now, that sounds a bit buzzword-y, but when it comes from a customer to you. >> That came from a customer? Sounds like a marketing department wrote that. >> In the details, as you know, traditional HDFS clusters, traditional Hadoop clusters, sparklers or whatever, HDFS is not shared between clusters. One of our large customers has 50 plus analytics clusters. Their data platforms team employ a maze of scripts to copy data from one cluster to the other. And if you are a scientist or an engineer, you'd say, I'm trying to obtain these types of answers, but I need access to data sets A, B, C, and D, but data sets A and B are only on this cluster. I've got to go contact the data platforms team and have them copy it over and ensure that it's up-to-date and in sync so it's messy. >> It's a nightmare. >> Messy. So that's why the one customer said releasing the lock on data because now it's in a shared. Similar paradigm as AWS with EMR. The data's in a shared context, an S3. You spin up your analytics workloads on AC2. Same paradigm discussion as with OpenStack. Your spinning up your analytics workloads via OpenStack virtualization and their sourcing is shared data context inside of Ceph, S3 compatible Ceph so same architecture. I love his last bit, the one that sounds the most buzzword-y which was releasing lock on innovation. And this individual, English was not this person's first language so love the word. He said, our developers no longer fear experimentation because it's so easy. In minutes they can spin up an analytics cluster with a shared data context, they get the wrong mix of things they shut it down and spin it up again. >> In previous example you used HDFS clusters. There's so many trip wires, right. You can break something. >> It's fragile. >> It's like scripts. You don't want to tinker with that. Developers don't want to get their hand slapped. >> The other thing is also the recognition that innovation comes from data. That's what my takeaway is. The customer saying, okay, now we can innovate because we have access to the data, we can apply intelligence to that data whether it's machine intelligence or analytics, et cetera. >> This the trend in infrastructure. You mentioned the shared context. What other observations and learnings have you guys come to as Red Hat starts to get more customer interactions around analytical infrastructure. Is it an IT problem? You mentioned abstracting the way different infrastructures, and that means multi-cloud's probably setup for you guys in a big way. But what does that mean for a customer? If you had to explain infrastructure analytics, what needs to get done, what does the customer need to do? How do you describe that? >> I love the term that industry uses of multi-tenant workload isolation with shared data context. That's such a concise term to describe what we talk to our customers about. And most of them, that's what they're looking for. They've got their data scientist teams that don't want their workloads mixed in with the long running batch workloads. They say, listen, I'm on deadline here. I've got an hour to get these answers. They're working with Impala. They're working with Presto. They iterate, they don't know exactly the pattern they're looking for. So having to take a long time because their jobs are mixed in with these long MapReduce jobs. They need to be able to spin up infrastructure, workload isolation meaning they have their own space, shared context, they don't want to be placing calls over to the platform team saying, I need data sets C, D, and E. Could you please send them over? I'm on deadline here. That phrase, I think, captures so nicely what customers are really looking to do with their analytics infrastructure. Analytics tools, they'll still do their thing, but the infrastructure underneath analytics delivering this new type of agility is giving that multi-tenant workload isolation with shared data context. >> You know what's funny is we were talking at the kickoff. We were looking back nine years. We've been at this event for nine years now. We made prediction there will be no Red Hat of big data. John, years ago said, unless it's Red Hat. You guys got dragged into this by your customers really is how it came about. >> Customers and partners, of course with your recent guest from Hortonworks, the announcement that Red Hat, Hortonworks, and IBM had on Monday of this week. Dialing up even further taking the agility, okay, OpenStack is great for agility, private cloud, utility based computing and storage with OpenStack and Ceph, great. OpenShift dials up that agility another notch. Of course, we heard from the CEO of Hortonworks how much they love the agility that a Kubernetes based substrate provides their analytics customers. >> That's essentially how you're creating that sort of same-same experience between on-prem and multi-cloud, is that right? >> Yeah, OpenShift is deployed pervasively on AWS, on-premises, on Azure, on GCE. >> It's a multi-cloud world, we see that for sure. Again, the validation was at VMworld. AWS CEO, Andy Jassy announced RDS which is their product on VMware on-premises which they've never done. Amazon's never done any product on-premises. We were speculating it would be a hardware device. We missed that one, but it's a software. But this is the validation, seamless cloud operations on-premise in the cloud really is what people want. They want one standard operating model and they want to abstract away the infrastructure, as you were saying, as the big trend. The question that we have is, okay, go to the next level. From a developer standpoint, what is this modern developer using for tools in the infrastructure? How can they get that agility and spinning up isolated, multi-tenant infrastructure concept all the time? This is the demand we're seeing, that's an evolution. Question for Red Hat is, how does that change your partnership strategy because you mentioned Rob Bearden. They've been hardcore enterprise and you guys are hardcore enterprise. You kind of know the little things that customers want that might not be obvious to people: compliance, certification, a decade of support. How is Red Hat's partnership model changing with this changing landscape, if you will? You mentioned IBM and Hortonworks release this week, but what in general, how does the partnership strategy look for you? >> The more it changes, the more it looks the same. When you go back 20 years ago, what Red Hat has always stood for is any application on any infrastructure. But back in the day it was we had n-thousand of applications that were certified on Red Hat Linux and we ran on anybody's server. >> Box. >> Running on a box, exactly. It's a similar play, just in 2018 in the world of hybrid, multi-cloud architectures. >> Well, you guys have done some serious heavy lifting. Don't hate me for saying this, but you're kind of like the mules of the industry. You do a lot of stuff that nobody either wants to do or knows how to do and it's really paid off. You just look at the ascendancy of the company, it's been amazing. >> Well, multi-cloud is hard. Look at what it takes to do multi-cloud in DevOps. It's not easy and a lot of pretenders will fall out of the way, you guys have done well. What's next for you guys? What's on the horizon? What's happening for you guys this next couple months for Red Hat and technology? Any new announcements coming? What's the vision, what's happening? >> One of the announcements that you saw last week, was Red Hat, Cloudera, and Eurotech as analytics in the data center is great. Increasingly, the world's businesses run on data-driven decisions. That's great, but analytics at the edge for more realtime industrial automation, et cetera. Per the announcements we did with Cloudera and Eurotech about the use of, we haven't even talked about Red Hat's middleware platforms, such as AMQ Streams now based on Kafka, a Kafka distribution, Fuze, an integration master effectively bringing Red Hat technology to the edge of analytics so that you have the ability to do some processing in realtime before back calling all the way back to the data center. That's an area that you'll also see is pushing some analytics to the edge through our partnerships such as announced with Cloudera and Eurotech. >> You guys got the Red Hat Summit coming up next year. theCUBE will be there, as usual. It's great to cover Red Hat. Thanks for coming on theCUBE, Brent. Appreciate it, thanks for spending the time. We're here in New York City live. I'm John Furrier, Dave Vallante, stay with us. All day coverage today and tomorrow in New York City. We'll be right back. (upbeat music)

>> Narrator: Live, from Nice, France, it's theCUBE, covering .Next Conference 2017 Europe. Brought to you by Nutanix. Welcome back, I'm Stu Miniman and we're here in Nice, France, with Nutanix.Next. Happy to welcome back to the program two return guests, Binny Gill and Aaditya Sood, both with Nutanix. As I said, Binny is the Chief Architect. Aaditya is Senior Director of Engineering. Gentlemen, thanks so much for joining us. Thank you. My pleasure. All right, so, for about the last year, we've been looking at Nutanix, you talk about enterprise cloud. What does that really mean? How do you, as Dheera said, the goal was to become an iconic software company. Audacious goal. Started with a couple of acquisitions. Really, this week it feels like we're kind of expanding a little bit on what kind of the Nutanix Cloud portfolio if you will, is going to look like. So first, Aaditya, pretty busy, since you came into the Nutanix fold. Bring us up to speed on what you've been up to since the last time we talked. Sure, thank you Stu. The last year or so we have spent integrating Calm into the Nutanix platform. And also just enhancing it so that the true multi-cloud capability of the current platforms come together. And I think this is one of the fundamental building blocks for the modern next generation enterprise clouds. On services, as well as on a service-centric life cycle approach and that is what we have been up to. Yeah, so to dig in for one second here. Because Calm, absolutely seems central, kind of cloud and (mumble), the two things we have been talking about. I've talked to a couple of customers that have had kind of that early, limited access really happy. A lot of customers I've talked to they're like, ah, I've seen the slides. I'm hoping to see some demos. But, you know, they can't wait to get their hands on it 'cause as Nutanix has done in the past, you know, some bold claims, but will the product deliver? So were are we? When does everyone get their hands on it and, you know, get beating on it? Sure, we have been running some early access betas with customers for the last two or three months and the response for us has been phenomenal. Our partners are very excited, our customers are excited. And well as all of Nutanix is very excited. And I think that sometime later this month is when we will push this thing out there to see how it works out, but so far, looking pretty good. All right, excellent. All right, Binny, lot of new announcements. I mean we had Sunil on. We went through, there's all the five-five stuff. But you know, we bring you on stage to talk about some of the future things as I said, expanding out kind of the cloud's stack. Give us a little bit, kind of the architect's view as to how you're deciding, you know, what to build and then you give us the thumbnails as to what's coming. Yeah, so, essentially what we're trying to build is, as you talked about earlier, an enterprise cloud OS, let me put some more meat to that statement. Essentially, an operating system is something where we run applications, right? Back in the old days, operating systems were run on my desktop, like it could be a Linux operating system or Windows operating system and my app would just run on one host. Today, apps run on clouds, right? So the cloud is the new operating system. Now there are multiple operating systems out there. There's AWS, there's Azure, there's GCP. What does the enterprise have, right? Enterprise doesn't have a good operating system and that's our goal. So what were are saying is we need to build all the aspects of an operating system that means starting from a marketplace, you know, from where you download an application to Calm which can deploy an application to a run time like AHV where the application runs to the networking, the storage and security, all these aspects is what we are building and if you can see how we are progressing over the last two, three, years on this, we have made tremendous progress on a lot of these fronts. And if you look at the announcements that we are making, these are very strategic in that direction, how can we make the right components fit into the picture at the right time. All right and speak a little bit to some of the announcements made-- Yeah, so, if you look at so far what we have done, we have had a (mumble) block services and file services and services that allow you to run your mobile apps better, right? Now you're looking at the next generation cloud native applications. One of the first, key things to have is an objects store. If you look at how the public cloud evolved. It started with an object store for multiple applications. We announced that the objects store service. And again, in true Nutanix fashion, it's going to be highly scalable, elastic. We are looking at global scale and how can you build an object store, not only to reside in one cloud and sort of be lock a lock-in, but rather, have it inter-distributed dispersed cloud fashion with the odd capabilities, back-up snap shot. The old constructs of mobility are still needed in this next generation disperse cloud. So that is one of the things. The other announcement we made was on the compute cloud, right. So you've seen Nutanix bring in hyperconvergence first, then we said you can add storage-only Nords. Now we are saying you compute only, storage-less Nords. And the whole idea is that now you can run AHV on a lot more servers. Even the servers you had earlier invested in, you can bring them into the Nutanix fabric and manage from Prism, the one place to manage all your compute farm, all your hyerconvergence farm, and all your storage farm. So that's pretty exciting right now. Yeah, and it's interesting, those people are like, oh well, Nutanix is a hyperconvergence structure player. Well, that service you describe AC2? There's no storage. It's not not hyperconverged, right? So, is HCI just a piece of the portfolio? How would you look at that from an engineering standpoint? HCI was sort of the hammer we needed to use to get rid of the legacy, if you think about it. But, that essentially got rid of the complexity of three-tier architecture, three-tier mindset. Once that's gone and we now say that okay, this is one compute fabric, and the storage fabric could be married to it, or in some cases, it could be separate, that's completely fine, as long as there's one stack that you're dealing with, you know a single place where you can go and upgrade your files from there, this from there, that from there, hypervisor, you know the storage controller, that makes it an operating system in some sense. OS is the one place where, you know it's still wholistic, it doesn't have, I don't buy parts of an OS from different companies. It's one OS. And that's what we are building, so, HCI was an means to an end, I think. Now building an OS for the cloud is the next goal. All right, so, Aaditya, We hear the message of a one OS. But if I look at any IT environment, they have and, because they have something new and they have their old stuff. And the they accept something new and it's always heterogeneous, well I've got vSphere and AHV. I've got AWS and, you know, GCP. Management has to kind of deal with that. And it's been something we have been struggling with in this industry for longer than I've been in the industry. (laughter) So, how are you looking at this? Where do you feel that Nutanix and Calm is going to help, you know to try to, not silver bullet, hopefully single pane of glass get discussed too much. But, what realistically, what do you solve and what advice do you give customers to try to help them get through this? Sure. So the way we look at it, that's the reality to it, the fractured reality of infrastructure, of the enterprise and the different kinds of Window stacks running together. And to riff off Binny's example, an operating system, forever, had different devices, different hardware devices from different Windows. But, by using things like device drivers or file abstractions, build a consistent, layered platform on top of them, so each application did not need to be return off or I'm running this network card or that network card and so on. So that's how we're looking at this layered approach in Calms as well from Nutanix. And yes, there is going to be AWS, there is going to be GCP. But on top of this a single layer can be built which can go ahead and allow the applications to abstract those parts out. That being said, there is no silver bullet for any of this. There are trade-offs involved, but we like to think of based-off on the feedback we have seen over the last year or so of running betas and getting customer interactions and partnerships that remains is, it takes I'd would say 80, 90% of the complexity over. Now I will specifically not use a single pane of glass. Why, because you said so. Yes. Very rightly so, but I think that as close as coming and not just as a single scream but as a single abstraction across multiple pieces of infrastructure is what we are going and building now. And, I've talked to a number of the Nutanix partners and RESTful APIs come up all the time. It's easy for them to integrate with the services. It's kind of the core fundamental of what we look at today, yes? Yeah, Binny. When I think about the channel and I think about your customers, sell an appliance, it's relatively easy. Selling software and services and these pieces, it's a little bit different mindset for them. How do you help with the customers, the go-to-market for what you're building today, how do you get them ready for that? How do you listen to them? How is the feedback you're getting from people impact the kind of what and how you're building it? Yes, we see all sorts of requirements actually coming in. There are some large customers who still love our appliance model. They can just buy Nutanix appliances and forget about managing them or who do they need to call, it's one number to call, one throat to choke, quote unquote, and then there are some others who want to picky in terms of hey, this is the hardware I need to get, because I have great contacts with Taiwan or China and I'll the hardware from there. I also have been using that in my other server farms. They are using just software from us, so we sell them software only. So, there are many different ways in which we are solving for what customers want. And there's no one-size-fits-all. And that's the beauty of this, I mean, just like, I can take Linux and package it as an appliance and say, hey, this is a router or something else, or maybe a custom, super computer or I could just have it independent, right. So, the beauty of an OS is that it's very flexible in how you package it, right. And that packaging will be very diverse and the partner ecosystem will build around that operating system, as Aaditya was saying. As you see in this expo, there are a lot of partners excited working with our OS and adding their value-add on top of it. All right so, Binny, we heard of there's a lot of features you're rolling out through community edition, CE, first. When I saw the announcements of the object and the compute, there's this disclaimer, it's like well, this is future stuff that we're working on but we're not giving you a date. For a software company, how do you give guidance on this, it gets announced, when should we expect to see it in beta, community edition and kind of generally available? You're a public company, you can't give too much, but general guidance, philosophy, engineering standpoint, how do we look? 'Cause we've gone away from the 18 month major release cycles, so how do you look at release cycles and the way to get them out? So yeah, a couple of things, One is that we are going towards an agile modeling in terms of how releases will be done. Like how Aaditya's team will be releasing Calm at a different cadence compared to, for example, a storage fabric. This is still one OS. But you can upgrade pieces in it, separately. And they can come faster. Basically, the new services that come in, they need more quicker reiteration and that's how they will be iterated on and the older services where you care about, hey, I don't want to cut up my data and all that. You'd be more concerned by nature. And that's essentially, you'll see that's the transition that's going to happen and how we do stuff. One of the core principles, like philosophies, that we have is in mind is that we want to make sure that the experience that our customers have today with Nutanix on trim is maintained. Say, if they want the five nine, six nine is a liability. If they want the NPS of 90 plus, that's what you need. The reason we started with our own appliance was precisely that. We want to control the experience. Then when we went with Onyems and Partners, we were very strict in what we allow, what we don't allow so that experience is maintained. You will see the same thing going forward. So, we're not about, hey, just throwing in a bunch of features because so many people are waiting for it but the quality goes with that. We want to make sure that when we, even when we talk about hybrid cloud and (mumble), and we're talking about DR as a service, what would you DR, your business critical, mission critical apps. So you expect the same quality, right? So, that's what you should expect from Nutanix that if it is GA, it holds up to the bar and net promote a score. It will be maintained very high. All right, Aaditya, one last question I have for you is in an event like this, you get to talk to a lot of customers. I'm sure there's huge requests, talk to a lot of customers, they're excited about what you're doing and they want to know not only GA but kind of roadmap. What can you share with us as some of the big pieces, what should we be looking for beyond the availability itself when it comes to your activities. Sure, I think, I of course, can't go into too much amount of details because I'll unveil it at the right time. Some of the things what we are, what core things we are specifically looking at is how to bridge the chasm between the old school of more than one application and move to container-based modern entirely cloud-based native applications like all the majority of a lot of the enterprise today is stuck on this side of the divide. And it's very simplistic and naive to say just rewrite all your applications to fit into containers, or the modern cloud and everything. So we are building a bunch of technologies which you are here and creatively and incrementally get you over to the other side without doing rewrites, maintaining uptime and hopefully minimizing your spending. Yeah, that's great, Binny, in the keynote today, we heard more about the edge computing, Satyam talked about it. There's certain parts of the market I talk to, it's like containers are pretty much a given at this point. Server list is something that we're talking about a lot. Now, how is engineering and architecture keep up with this change? how do you look at some of these dynamics, how to make sure you don't kind of over-rotate too fast? You want to be with your customers, not too far ahead of them. Well, yeah, so, even in the keynote today, you might have noticed that the way we look at the problem of how our customers will move to the next level. And every customer is at a different phase in this journey towards building their true enterprise hybrid cloud, right. Some are still virtualizing, to be frank. And some are them are moving from three tier to hyperconvergence, some of them from hyperconvergence to hey, I need a better hypervisor with the HV, and then I need Calm and then I need Zi and so on. So they're on a journey. The way we look at this entire transition, even when you talk about IODs, like have it as another phase in the evolution, don't force it on everybody. So IODs being built as a layer after you're standardized on Calm, for example, then you can use Calm as a way of saying now I need to enable some services that I need to create the foundation for building my IOD apps, so functions as a service and all that would be managed by the cloud admin using Calm. So we're building things in layers and IODs is yet another layer that will come out in some time. Binny Gill, Aaditya Sood, thank you so much for giving us all the updates. We look forward to the releases and the future announcements. We'll be back with more coverage here. Nutanix next, I'm Stu Miniman, you're watching theCUBE. (upbeat music)

>> Narrator: Live from Nice, France, it's theCUBE, covering .NEXT Conference 2017 Europe, brought to you by Nutanix. (upbeat music) >> Welcome back. I'm Stu Miniman and you're watching theCUBE's live coverage of Nutanix .NEXT here in Nice. Happy to welcome back to the program Sunil Potti. Fresh off the keynote here, 2200 in attendance here at the second annual European show. Sunil is the chief product and development officer, and Sunil, your team's been busy. >> Yes. >> Product development-- >> Sunil: I hope so. >> 5.5, ton of new features in development, a lot of things going on. So let's step back for a second though, and it's a year after the IPO, I watched The Wall Street guys, they're always like, "Wait, are they boxes, or are they software, "are they infrastructure, are they cloud?" You know, you kind of step back, it's, I liked it, it was, "simplicity takes real genius," and then you're like, to try to appeal to the European cloud, it was "more tea, less clicks." So what's the kind of, as people think of Nutanix, when do we think of you, why do we think of you? >> Gotcha, gotcha. Yeah, I think there's a bunch of moving parts there, but I think our core thesis hasn't changed from where it was pre-IPO, post-IPO, multiple conferences. I think the core thesis as you know, Stu, is that we fundamentally think folks talk about hybrid cloud. Hybrid cloud, the first step is we know public clouds exist, true private clouds haven't been built yet. And they have to be first standardized, commoditized, and then harmonized with the public clouds, right? So I think, from our perspective, the core thesis is the fact that, if you can bottle up the AWS or GCP experience and funnel it inside the data center, there'll be a ton of workloads that stay inside. But with the right experience, for the right cost, right? >> Yeah. >> And essentially, that journey hasn't wavered from our perspective, right? So we're still on that. >> Yeah, absolutely, at Wikibon, we said, you know, cloud isn't a destination, it's really more of an operational model. >> Sunil: Sure, sure. >> So, if we can capture that, as you say, true private cloud, we said, we're starting to get there, and we actually credit Nutanix. So you know, of course, the messaging of enterprise cloud was probably a little bit aspirational-- >> Sure, sure. >> At the beginning, but you're filling in the pieces, you've got the partnerships, you've got the products rolling out, so, let's talk about your bread and butter. You know, what's new, what's launching now, I like that you're as a software company, you show a little bit more. Here's when we test some things out, it's that balance of, for the enterprise it's like, "Wait, is this going to work the way I think it is?" You put stuff out like the community edition first, let people play with it and then you GA it-- >> I think we talked a little bit about it and essentially, rather than me list out a whole series of functionality, I think the way we are also looking at it as well as building it, as well as rolling it out is in the form of what a customer can consume. So we are investing at Nutanix, like, capabilities that cross the life cycle, right? So we're investing and ensuring that communication gets a lot more emphasis because we think this paradigm of one-click data centers is something that people need the ubiquity to kind of play around with, right? So you see community relation from a learning side, then we're looking for capabilities for people to actually say and compare, "Look, Nutanix is one architecture, "we experienced another architecture, "three tiers in other architecture, "maybe public cloud." At some point in time people need the flexibility to actually have in the old world of TPC benchmarks the new world of what I would call production world benchmarks so we had a whole bunch of tools such as X-Ray coming out, then rather than leave it to professional services and so forth, rather than just worry about reducing the number of clicks once you have Nutanix, even before you get to Nutanix, how do you reduce the number of clicks? You get to Nutanix, right? That's where Xtract, which is a very popular tool from us again, that has been shipping for a month, for now, where you can actually click at a certain VM environment, at a certain database environment, and essentially, literally, without a whole bunch of lift and shift move into a private cloud environment, right? >> And my understanding, Xtract is, I could take my VMs really from VM environment to an AHV environment-- >> That's correct. And it also works on databases as well, like SQL databases, and so forth, right? >> Yeah, absolutely, that migration is something that, you know, it's like a four letter word for most people in IT. One of the things that we were early on kind of beating the drum on, is traditional three-tier architecture with the storage, your migration cost was at least 30% of the total cost of ownership because you had to bring data on, eventually you had to take data off, as opposed to, if you really have more like a pool, which is what HCI does, you know, that first, once I get on to it, that's the last time you need to do a migration because now I can move and add, remove, it knows, and we just kind of manage it there. Absolutely the other company I hear talking a lot about this thing is Amazon. You know, they've been working on database migration lots of companies, changing away their environment, and it's something that customers are looking for. >> Yeah, and it's almost like, for us with the public cloud at least you have a genuine sort of big hop in lift and shift, just because of the boundaries. It's a shame if we can't solve that problem without what we call make lift and shift invisible inside the data center at least so that's why we invest in things like Xtract so that people can, look, we're still less than one percent of the market so we expect a whole lot of migration to happen over the next few years. So anything that we can do to kind of accelerate customers to the point of ensuring that their architectural integrity is preserved in terms of environment I think it's a big focus for us. So you're going to see as emphasize Xtract not just for there for VM's or databases to Nutanix on pRAM. We're also going to see that as a fundamental construct for app mobility because imagine Calm as a construct that you're able to go in, proficient work loads and it's on pRAM or off pRAM but at some point in time you want to move them back and forth. You know the thing that we used to always say? "App mobility is slowly coming to fruition "with some of these constructs." >> Calms is the centerpiece of really your multi-cloud strategy. We've talked to some customers that some of the early folks pretty excited about it. A lot of the others have been like, "Okay, well, I've seen some slides and a demo," kind of squinting, looking at it. Reminds me of the early days, "I bet it can't really "do what they say it does." >> I think they have to taste the wine, just like everything else. There were a bunch of early believers who saw the product, who used the product, which we used as an early access program. But we took a step back when we acquired Calm a year ago, we had the choice of releasing a reasonably big product to mainstream. It's been seven years building our product, they had rewritten it two times. So they had already done a rewrite or two. What we took was, we took the time to ensure that it was burned into the Nutanix fabric. It had to fit into a Prism, it had to fit into a life cycle manager, it had to fit into a one-click update. It needs to look and feel like a natural extension versus a power-sucking alien, which is what we've seen with many of our competitor's products where you just buy some things and you put it in there and the more successful it is, the harder it is to homogenize. So we took our time, and that's what you're going to see in 5.5, customers can now actually genuinely use the product. And day one it'll have AHV support, AWS support, very quickly it'll have ESX, and GCP and Azure and it's a separate code train by the way, in a sense that the same code-base but it's being delivered as a service and you're going to see more and more of that paradigm where Nutanix is no longer going to be this blob of capabilities that in itself comes out fast but there's a bunch of microservices now that are going to be released. Not just on the cloud, but also on pRAM. So AFS is a good example, Xtract is a good example, Calm is a good example and now with 5.5 even Prism Central is going to be detached so that you can consume that at a different velocity than the code. >> How do you make sure that you balance that with the simplicity that really is the core piece of your business proposition? >> Yeah, yeah. I mean I think this is where we just have to be measured in ensuring that it's still one single code-base for example. What we want, we can't afford to have 18 different branches. So simple things like that will actually go a long way to make sure that somebody can still go to a console and say upgrade, it checks the right provisions. It's a little bit invisible, sort of like version mismatch of that is our problem, not a customer problem. >> Absolutely, so a lot in 5.5, which we haven't touched there but also really unveiling some of the next step in the journey, what you're working on for the next six months. What's the focus there, ya know cloud is, I think you talked about visible infrastructure to invisible cloud so looks like kind of expanding out and building out some of those cloud services. Take us through some of that. >> So I think the general theme is continue to fulfill our ambition around making infrastructure more invisible and then at the same time in parallel try to make clouds invisible and I'll break it down into three kinds of products. The first one is, we still have our journey, our things cut out to actually fulfill what I would call the A block, the Amazon block for the enterprise, and you can call it the Azure block or you can call it the Alphabet block now that we support multiple clouds. The point being that simple things suggest, we've done a great job of computer storage and virtualization. What about networking? And we've always said look, the problem is not in the data plane not working, top of the ax switches are pretty commodity, they work, you name it. The issue is always in the control plane, when something goes wrong, what are doing wrong, so that's one of the big things coming in 5.5 is built in network virtualization, provisioning, and one-click micro segmentation. And again the point being rather than buy very expensive products such as NSX or some other overlay products where you're virtualizing the network to secure the network. If you go to Amazon, or you go to Google, or you go to Azure not only do they not require to virtualize, the way that micro segmentation is built is genuinely with the simplicity of one click. You take out 10 VM's, put them in a secular group you're off to the races right? And the same paradigm then basically moves to us so in that vein of fulfilling that stack is one dimension. And a couple of key things that are new there that are in the next six months timeframe, not in the 5.5, the fact that when everything's said and done we've got a file service, we've got blocks, we've got containers, everything else, but what about object storage? Sounds obvious, right? So we've taken our time to kind of build a next generation object storage service, not a first generation one that can scale obviously to the levels of webscale that these days customers want, but is deployed with gentle requirements. An example of a gentle requirement is, you can't build an object story service that is simply on pRAM or simply off pRAM anymore. It has to be hybrid from day one. My primary needs to be data locality quote unquote to be invisible under the cover so my primary stuff is closer to my compute whereas my secondary and backup can be pulled out into the cloud. And the same thing applies on, even something much more simpler, which is EC2. What about EC2 for the enterprise? And that's where I think we were inspired to actually go build us Acropolis Compute Cloud, AC2, which essentially says you can take my Nutanix class, computer storage, and all of that, but then only have compute only nodes, and you could have SAB, SK lab requirements, you could have IBM power, you could have Oracle running on those, but they are essentially being managed with that single pane of glass. So this is the first time that you're seeing, based on a customer demand, now EH3 is now almost one of the three nodes being shipped is an EH3 node. We've come a long way in the last two years right? So people covet that simple virtualization, especially if we can, we extend it from a computer only fabric to the hyper-con only fabric. So I think that's one dimension-- >> It's interesting, just happenstance, that in the news recently, Amazon just announced that they're switching from Zen to KVM base so similar. Come on, you couldn't get Amazon to just sign on for AHV? >> No, see I think see what it is is that frankly AHV from our perspective was all about just ruggedizing KVM right, make it storage, Iops work well, the management plan work well, in fact, the fact that AWS is doing that is actually a good sign for us to go deeper with them frankly just as a tangent, rather than just go deeper with say Zi or GCP and so forth just natively as well now with C-fi instances there's an opportunity for Nutanix fabric to kind of seamlessly leverage that because the core constructs are similar with KBM right? So you're going to see some interesting stuff come up there, maybe that's for the next CUBE, the next conference. >> Sunill, it's interesting I've had a chance to talk to a few customers already and we talk about kind of that cloud, everything from the Germans that well I've got governance and compliance and I'm not not doing public cloud to, you've got a customer speaking today in a session that's like "I'm going to do "everything SAS and what I can't do SAS "I'll do infrastructure service," and then there's a little bit of stuff I can't do because I don't have enough network or things like that, and that's when Nutanix fit in for me. Making products and dealing with customers on such a broad spectrum is a little challenging and trying to fit where Nutanix is on that cloud because right if they're buying SAS from a lot of pieces it's like well you're not going to be as critical as opposed to somebody that's like well hey my data center is really my temple and you can help there so-- >> Yeah I think the philosophy that we use in terms of our product strategy and roadmap there is to maybe just give some color on it is it's the curse of the platform. The wealth of the platform which is like we are a platform company and we've internalized that, we're not a simple product company, so a lot of this comes down to what do we not do as well right which is versus what we just do. And one simple filter that we use is, is it directionally in a secular motion for enterprises or not. So a simple example is look, a lot of customers, and we would have probably quite a bit of sales if we simply said look I can take my existing Nutanix class serve, I just bought a three part array, I've bought a narat box, why don't you guys just co-exist with that. But then if you really think about it, it's like AWS coming to you and saying, "Oh by the way, take my service environment, "put my AWS software on it." It's like Apple coming out and saying, "Here's iOS, "I want it on Blackberry." So one click upgrades won't work, it's not the right thing. So there are things like that that we stayed away from that allows us to, even if we are stretched, lean in on the forward looking circular motions such as first, continue to finish the job inside, then harmonize inside and outside, and then go provide specialized services like Zi, in addition to what we're doing with DCP or Amazon, and others. >> Alright, last question I have for you, what's exciting you in the marketplace today, getting your engineers kind of fired up as kind of this next wave? >> Yeah I think look, I think some of the biggest thing is around how apps are now being re-platformed themselves, not just infrastructure and people used to word pass and all that other stuff but essentially I think we are now getting into the golden era, or the initial golden era where IAS re-platforming is more or less known. Now, of course it's going to take you five, 10 years to do it, but I don't think people are debating the way to do that. It's no longer open stack inside, it's no longer hosted clouds and all that crap right? It's two clouds, right? I think that wave has to emerge on the application side as well, you're starting to see some of that with communities, now becoming a defacto for one sliver of it, but there's so many other services that are up for grabs. So I think you're going to see in the next 12 to 18 months and you're obviously going to see Nutanix play a role there, is what does it mean to not hybridize my data center but what does it mean to hybridize my app. And I think there's a lot of interesting opportunity, interesting inspirational stuff there from an innovation perspective that keeps our guys going. >> Absolutely well Sunil, always a pleasure to chat with you, look forward to catching up with you at the next time and we'll be back with lots more coverage here from the Nutanix .NEXT conference in Nice, France. I'm Stu Miniman, you're watching theCUBE.

>> Narrator: From Nice, France, it's theCUBE covering .NEXT Conference 2017 Europe, brought to you by Nutanix. (electronic music) >> Welcome back. I'm Stu Miniman, and this is SiliconANGLE Media's Production of theCUBE live broadcast from Nutanix .NEXT in Nice, France. To help me wrap up for today's coverage, I'm happy to have Jens Soldner, who is a consultant, does media, writes for some organizations, someone I've gotten to know at some industry events over the last couple of years. So Jens, thanks so much for joining me. >> Thanks to you. Thanks for inviting me, and happy to be here at Nutanix .NEXT Conference. Awesome event and I think the vendor has a bright future in front of him. >> You know, we're a year after Nutanix IPOed. The attendance at this show doubled absolutely. You know, every Nutanix show, and I've been at all five of them, you know, customers are usually, they're enthusiastic. It's self-selecting, right? You go to a VMworld, you come to a Nutanix show, Veritas, some of these, there's VEEMs show, usually the customers, it's a good measure of how the company's doing and barometer is customers are happy, they like what they're doing. One thing I like about Nutanix customers is they aren't just oh, we love everything and we believe everything that Nutanix says. It was like hey, calm, I talked to a couple customers that use it and they're like it's great. But everybody else is like yeah, I'm waiting to get my hands on it and really beat it up and we'll see if it does what it is because Nutanix has proven themselves and needs to continually prove themselves time and again. Really I think something that reminds me of the Cloud Era because if I'm buying from public cloud and I'm buying from a consumption basis, if I don't like something, I'll move, I'll stop paying. What's been catching your ear and eye at the show so far, what have you liked, what are you still questioning and want to learn more about? >> I think there's a lot of good things coming actually, like the new version 5.5 which will be out end of this year also we hear, so that's like brings some good incremental innovation, nothing overly massive, but some good stuff in there. But I of course like the future looking stuff, calm, sigh and so on and so that looks pretty promising, but as you said it's not available right now and we want to get my hands dirty, that's the thing. >> What you like is if you talk to the customers that are deeply involved, they've probably been beta testing a lot of the stuff in 5.5, some of the features get out in the community edition. In the keynote, they talked about MVME was one that had been tested, anything in particular that you've been hearing, customers that chomping at the bit, interested, 5.5 oh great, finally we have that? >> I think the generic compute platform is a good thing so in order to enable new use cases like SAP stuff, HANA, maybe you need for Oracle licensing, this kind of stuff for anything. >> Are you talking about I think they call it AC2? >> Yeah. >> Which that's not in 5.5 I don't believe, no? I think that's a future one. >> Oh then I got the wrong impression, okay. >> To be honest, that's one of the critiques sometimes, if you go look at this and you get the keynote and it's a deluge of so much stuff, you need the cheat sheet so I look through, Nutanix, they did a press release, there's like four blog posts, it takes a little while for those of us that look at this to sort through and be like oh wait, which of this, as you said, 5.5 oh, does that mean I can do it today well it's coming real soon and if you're a beta person, you can do it, as opposed to the object storage and AC2 type pieces, if I remember right and I'm sure Nutanix will watch and tell us if we got it wrong though, was a coming future, we'll let you know when we have a date. Little bit different now as a public company too, a lot of these, they don't pin down on certain quarters or dates because then that impacts financial reporting. Talk to us about you were obviously at the keynote, what else have you been doing, what sessions have you been going to or what's been happening? >> We had a lot of background talks with the Nutanix executive leadership like Sumir Pati, right before our talk here and we talked actually in depth about questions that other journalists and I had about calm, when it will be available, how it will be priced, what can you do, can you move apps from one cloud to the other, not in the near future, maybe in the more distant future. It looks pretty promising and for a cloud management person that is one of my main jobs out there in the normal life, then it looks pretty good actually, but as you said, getting the hands dirty is an essential part and maybe that's coming a little bit too short here to really see what's happening and not just announcements and announcements. >> Absolutely and if you were to place bets on what are the important pieces in the future, calm and Zi, absolutely something Nutanix have been talking a lot, super important that they get it right. You've been tracking calm since the acquisition, any nuances, what do they need to do, what's going to be ready, what do they need to have in the future to really make that work? >> I think actually going to get it right. I think in the grand scheme of things, like delivering it two weeks early or later in five years race with the competition is not making such a huge difference, so rather than delivering a immature and unready product, how do you say, like filing the edges off and making it smooth should take some time, however me as a technical person, I like to get my hands on the stuff and really see it, so that's the downside. >> Getting your hands dirty is something that a lot of customers here like to do, do you get to play with the community edition and the like? >> Not yet, but I have a Nutanix folder trust waiting in our data center, ready for installation and we want to compare it like how it runs with Vsphere and how it runs with AHV so that AHV I think is unlikely work load actually. >> We've been hearing the last couple of shows, AHV has really been front and center, it's an interesting mix for them to balance because even if about a third of customers of Nutanix are running AHV, that means two thirds of customers still are running one of the other hyper visors out there. I put the question to Nutanix and I said, what is victory, what is the ultimate goal and it's not 100% AHV, they're not looking to become a hyper visor company, they want to be a platform, work in the multicloud world, so when you talk to companies, how does that discussion go? Is AHV a central discussion point or is it some of the features that come along with it that help? >> I would say it's rather on the sidelines, I think it makes sense from an economic point of view, not having to pay additional licenses obviously and getting the impression, getting the right kind of experience with the product and even Nutanix, I think they say if the customer wants this and this and this extra, go get Vsphere. We are offering you a standard path, like with 80% of the features that you really really need and those 20 super esoteric stuff, like fault tolerance that nobody is really using, Vsphere they're not bringing it to AHV, they're keeping their product clean, simple, easy. >> You said cloud management, kind of a main focus area of you, what does Nutanix have to do to be a strong player in that market over the next two years? >> I think they are actually on a good vein already with the calm stuff, the thing is we need to see it, if it can compete with the other players out there, Vmware and Red Hat and you name it basically. Then to see if it gets accepted in the market, how the marketplace, the calm marketplace takes off and so on, I think the adoption, if it gains significant adoption, if there is traction in the market, in the blogosphere and so on, I think that's crucial. >> You mentioned Vmware and Red Hat, big companies, gigantic ecosystems. We all know the Vmware ecosystem and Red Hat open source, everybody's there, been at Red Hat summit for many years now. Any others that you'd say who they should be matching up as customers will be? >> I think computer associates has a good valid offering, but we personally see in the German market, most of the time, we realize automation, we've written three books on it, my brothers and I so that's maybe we are opinionated and biased here. In this case, but VMware's doing a good job in this cloud management space and of course they have a tight integration with the other products, like L6 that they have and I think Nutanix is very eager to catch up in these areas where they have gaps. >> One of the underlying, simmering conversations at a Nutanix event is that kind of Vmware, Nutanix relationship and we talked about still, lots of Nutanix deployments are using Vmware, didn't feel that they were bashing Vmware at this event, but what are you seeing when you talk to customers and you use a lot of Vmware, how's that relationship? Are there any challenges there or things that are concerning? >> At the end of the day, it's the customer's decision what they are going for, I think most of the customers might not go all in Nutanix, but only place it in certain use cases and so on. Of course Vmware is not happy, why should they be and they are positioning their VSAM product which is running quite well pretty aggressively but Nutanix has a different storyline, I think it's not only about the IOPS and it's about the simplicity of the whole thing and offering the customer a real, simple path to manage it in a cloud enabled fashion and that's where they're really doing a good job. However, Vmware, they can cover everything and they can figure so many little things and that makes the whole thing huge and complicated and of course you can, any use case can somehow be tailored to but also if you have a vendor who has a real good storyline of simplicity like Nutanix, they have a good chance here. >> Yeah, there was a lot of discussion, it was interesting, we were talking to Nutanix, they were talking about they want to get one click, it's about simplicity, then there's all of this learning from what other customers have done, I've got artificial intelligence starting to help in there. How do you see that trend going as to how, if I'm an administrator, is it reducing the number of clicks or am I going to be able to let go of the reins some and allow some other tooling and knowledge bases really drive some of that decision making? >> I think it's pretty helpful to have these expert knowledge bases built in, there's also a startup that does a similar thing in the Vmware space, Runecast, great guys and so on, so that's good but it's also challenging I would say for partners that they really need to see that with Nutanix of course we are going to sell as a partner, you are going to sell less wrecking and stacking of servers, you as a partner, you really need to refocus, learn the orchestration, learn the automation, get into container stuff in order to offer to your customers a valuable offering, a value proposition. Everybody needs to learn and I think Nutanix makes your life easier in these mundane, day to day activities, so that's I would say a good benefit of getting such an environment. >> Again, we're about at the halfway mark of the event, any other key takeaways, customer conversations that you'd want to share? >> I talked to a couple of partners, friends of mine from the Vmware instructor community and they say we are going all in Nutanix, so that was pretty impressive here and it's also what I heard not only from those who are actually doing it but of course from the Nutanix management, easy to understand why they say this, so I think there is a huge traction, some partners seem to have got the message and seem to say yeah, we are going all in. That was one of the things and of course I'll go a little bit more technical tomorrow so today was really packed with the official schedule, tomorrow is a little bit more free, so I'll have a couple more conversations with actual customers from a large Swiss bank, where we'll be doing the Vmware's implementation soon but they are also into Nutanix, so they are both a Vmware and a Nutanix partner so we'll meet up later on and yeah, that's pretty much the schedule. >> All right I never do this, but you got any questions for me for the wrap? >> What I would like to know is what's your take on the microsegmentation part of Nutanix, can it compete with the other offerings and I have not really looked at it so far. It looked pretty impressive to me in the keynote. >> Look, I'll say two pieces, one is, it's one of the top items that I've heard from users that they are super excited about. There was a bank I just interviewed earlier today, I think financial services and service providers were really excited for the microsegmentation. That being said, I've also talked to a bunch of the partner community and of course it's the typical, well how much is Nutanix doing versus what the department, oh we've had this and ours is much more future rich and the like, so it's good to see Nutanix moving down this line, they need to balance how much they'll do versus what some of their partners that are especially deeper in the networking space can do there. It's definitely one that you talk to customers that are getting into it, digging into it, but yeah it's a good one and definitely when you talk about those features coming out, one that customers have been asking for a bit. Like Vmware has done in the past, there's probably a lot of customers that what's built in is going to be good enough but then if I really need the Cadillac of it, I might need to pull in some best of breed partner to be able to compete it, so cool. >> That could also happen this year for us, if you look at the partner ecosystem, it's also pretty impressive and most of their named guys are here. >> All right well Jens Soldner, a pleasure catching up with you, thanks for helping us here on the Cube. We're wrapping up day one of two days of live coverage on the Cube. I'm Stu Miniman, you're watching the Cube. (dramatic music) (acoustic music)

(uptempo orchestral music) >> Welcome to theCubeConversations here in Palo Alto, California. theCube Studios, I'm John Furrier. The co-host of theCube, and co-founder of SiliconANGLE Media. Junaid Islam is the present CTO of Vidder that supports the public sector as well as the defense community as well as other criminalist oriented security paradigms. Expert in the field. Also part of coming Vidder that's doing a lot of work in the area. Thanks for sharing your time here with us. >> Well thanks for having me. >> We had a segment earlier on cybersecurity and the government. So that was phenomenal and also, we talked on the impact of hacking on business. So the number one issue on the boardroom agenda is security. Data, security, it's a big data problem. It's an AI opportunity, some things that are coming out. Embryonic, it's an early shift. Security is a challenge. The old model, the firewall, a moot, doors, access, you get in then you're done. It's over, it's a criminalist world. People can get access to these networks. Security is screwed right now. And we generally feels that. So the question for you is the Enterprise and in business as we're looking to show up security. Isn't it a do-over? >> Yeah, yeah, I think like other industries. Whether you talk about the PBS. Yes, yes, where you talk about computers shifting to the data center and then the cloud. I think last year or this year, Gartner said 100 billion will be spent on security. I cannot believe anybody who was involved in that 100 billion dollar expenditure is happy. In fact we have something interesting. Security expenditure has risen consistently over the past five or six years, and cyber attacks have also risen consistently. So that's not the kind of correlation you want. >> And they're buying anything that moves basically, they're desperate so it seems like they're like drunken sailors. Just like give me something. They're thirsty for solutions. So they're groping for something. >> Yeah and what we're seeing is a couple of things. One is the attackers have gotten much more sophisticated. And they basically can bypass all of the existing security appliances. So what we need is a new approach or a new security stack that really fits both the architectural environment of American companies where they use Clouds and data centers, and they have employees and contractors. But also cyber attacks which have gone much more sophisticated. The classic cyber attack used to be connecting to the Server remotely or stealing a password. We still have the classics but we have some new ones where we have malware that can actually go from the user's device to inside the network. And you find that existing security products just don't work well in this environment. >> What are some of the do over ideas? >> Absolutely malware, we see it ransomware, super hot, the HBO example recently. They didn't given, who knows what they actually did. They weren't public about it but actually they maybe get a little bit in but these are organized businesses. They're targeting with the Sony hacks well documented but again businesses, I'm not always funded this. And then you got the move to the clouds. Couple dynamics. Cloud computing. Amazon has done extremely well, they're leading. Now getting a lot more of the Enterprise. They won the CIA deal a few years ago over IBM. And you see a lot of government Cloud rocking and rolling, and then you've got the on premise data center challenges. That's the situation of the customer then now you have potentially an understaffed security force. >> Well actually so, I think let's start with that point. In terms of our theme of a do over. Talk about that first and then let's talk the techno part. I think one do over that America needs is security has to move out of the IT department, and become a stand alone department reporting ideally to the executive staff and not being on it. I think one of the unfortunate things is because security is a cost center within IT, it competes with other IT expenditures such as new applications, which are revenue generating. It's very hard to be a cost center asking for money when there's a guy sitting next to you who's doing something to make money. But unfortunately, unless security is properly funded and staffed, it never happens. And this unfortunately is a chronic issue through all US companies. One of the things we've seen that has worked for example in the financial world is most financial institutions, probably all now security is a pure organization to IT, that helps a lot. This is actually not a new idea, this was something the intelligence community probably started-- >> Cost structures, it's just the cost structures. Reduce the cost is the optimization behavior. What you're saying is just like applications are tied to top line in revenue, which gives them top line mojo. You got to think of security as a money saving table stake. >> That's right. >> People are losing money. The cost are now becoming obvious, in some cases crippling. >> Yeah so I think people need to think of security as fundamental to the life of a company, number one. I think the other thing that needs to happen from a security perspective. Now that we've broken off this entity is it security needs to become a threat based or risk based. Too much of security in the United States is based on compliance models. Unfortunately cyber attackers do not follow that model when they want to attack us. They basically work outside the model and come up with creative ways to get inside of organizations. >> Basically blindside. >> That's right. >> The company. >> I can't tell you how many meetings probably all where I meet the security team and they're totally busy just going through the list of 20 or 50 things that they're are supposed to do. So when you talk about attack vectors. They say you know that's really great and I know it's important but we can't get to it. So this is another important shift organizationally. First you break it out. Second, get focus on something that's important. once we have that we get to the next part which is technologies. And right now what happens is people buy a security point product for different networks. One for data center or one for Cloud. And this doesn't work so I think we have to move to security solutions that can work across hybrid environments, and can also work across different roles. I think that is critical and unless we get that in technically. >> Yeah, this is the thing with Cloud and (indistinct talking). I want to bring this up. I had multiple change to sit down with Andy Jassy. The CEO of Amazon web services. Fantastic executive, built a great business there. On his mind, what's been important for him for many years has been security, and Amazon has done an amazing job with security. But that's in the Cloud. Now Andy Jassy and Amazon thinks everyone should be in the public Cloud. Now they have a deal with VMware but they're just powering VMware's on prem in their Cloud. It's not really a VMware issue but Amazon's world is raising the public Cloud. But they've done really, really good on security, but yet most of the buyers would say hey, the Cloud is unsecure I can't trust it. So you have the dynamic between the data center on premise resource. So people default to the behavior of and leaving here with the on premise. Or I'll put a little bit in the cloud, a little bit of workloads here. A little bit in the Microsoft. Google's got some, I'll keep the tire on Google. But they never really leaving the home base of the data center. But yet some are arguing and Dave Vellante, my co-host on theCube talks about this all the time. There's actually more scale in the Cloud. More data sharing going in the cloud and that the cloud actually got better security. So how do you see that resolving because this is a key architectural opportunity and challenge for Enterprise. >> Actually I think there's an optimal model which is if you think about what the data center gives you. It gives you a lot of visibility and physical control as in with your hands. The problem is when you put everything in the data center. You don't have enough people to manage it all properly. The Cloud on the other hand gives you a lot of scale but you can't actually touch the Cloud. So the optimal mix is imagine your encryption and access control solutions live in your data center. But what they control access to is to Cloud resources. So you can actually, if you're just open your mind conceptually. >> So it's like saying, it's like segmenting a network. You're segmenting feasibility. >> That's right, so now you don't need a gigantic data center because what's in your data center which can be a lot smaller now are things like your identity-based access management solutions. You can keep your cryptographic elements. You can have your HSM, things that generate random numbers and search there. But now this is actually can be very tiny. It can just be a rack of gear. But through that rack of gear, you can have very fine control of people accessing Cloud resources. And I think this idea of building, it's not so much a hybrid network, but it's a notion that a small physically locked down asset can control a lot of virtual assets. It's gaining mind share in the banking world. In fact, just this summer, there was bank that implemented such an architecture where the control elements were the Cloud were their FFIC data center. And it include, it basically managed access to Amazon VPC and it worked well. >> So interlocking is a strategy. I can see that, by the way I see that playing out pretty well. So I got to ask the next question which comes to mind is that sounds great on paper. Or actually in certain situations it might perfect. But what about the geo-political landscape? because Amazon has people that develop on the Cloud that aren't US citizens. So the government might say wait a minute, you got to only employ Americans so they got to carve out and do some whatever weird doings with the numbers to get that certification. But they need data centers in Germany because the German government wants certain things. So you have geo-political issues now on the companies. How does that affect security? Because now a Cloud like Amazon or a multinational company has two things going on. I have multiple offices and I'm operating in multiple geo-political landscapes with these regional centers. The regional clouds, or at Amazon they're called regions. >> So actually Amazon has actually done a great job. They basically have their global market, but they also have data centers now which are only opened to US persons in US companies like Globe Cloud. As well as well as they support the C2S which is the intelligence communities Black Cloud, which is basically off net so I think now-- >> John: So they're doing a good job? >> Yeah, they're doing a good job but the key thing is how you use that resource is really still up to the enterprise. And that's where enterprises have to get good at creating the architecture and policies to be able to harness Amazon's compute capacity. Amazon, is the foundation but you really have to finish off the solution and the other thing going back full circle to your first question. Unless the security team has their freedom and the mandate to do that, they'll actually never get there. >> So it's staffing and architecture. >> That's right. >> Well they both architecture. It's one's organizational architecture. Debt funding and one is more of a hardcore virtual and physical touching. >> And you know what I put in the middle? I'd say know your risks and develop counter measures to them. because if you go to that security team and you say you have to build a counter measure for every attack. That's not going to work either. A company has to be realistic is what is really important? Maybe it's the data of our customers. >> So the answer to the first question then obviously is yes a security do over is needed. But there is no silver bullet and you can't buy an application, it's an architectural framework holistically >> Junaid: That's right. >> That everyone has to do, okay cool. So the question I have on the Amazon, I want to get your thoughts 'cause it's a debate we have all the time on theCube is. And certainly Amazon has competitors that say, Amazon is really not winning in the enterprise. They've got thousand of Enterprise customers. They are winning in the Enterprise so Oracle is catching up, barely in fourth place. But trying to get there and they're actually making that transformation. Looking pretty good, what more now assume that Oracle will (indistinct talking). But Amazon has one great gov Cloud deals. So they're convinced the government that they could do it. >> Junaid: Yeah. >> So to me that's, my argument is if the government is winning with Amazon. It should be a no brainer for the Enterprises so this comes back down to the number one question that's been holding back Cloud growth. Whoa, security, I don't want to put it in the Cloud. How real is that objection now? 'Cause the knee jerk reaction is you know what, I got an on prem, I don't trust the Cloud. But it seems like the Cloud is getting more trust. What's your thoughts on that objection? >> So one of the things as even though when we use the word Cloud, generically or Amazon generically. Amazon has evolved a lot in the last three to four years that I've been working on it. The number of embedded tools in Amazon is vast now. If we were having this conversation two years ago. The notion that granular encryption modules would be there and Amazon is apart of an offering. It would have been science fiction or the fact that-- >> More that S3 and AC2, what else could there be? >> That's right or they have things like virtual HSM. They have embedded identity and access control tools all there so I think first of all. All of the building blocks that you would want are there. Now unfortunately there's no short cuts. Amazon is not going to do the work for you, you still need a staff that knows how to use digital certificates. You still need your own identity based access control system to manage access of your employees and contractors and people in India to these assets in the Cloud. But having said that, we now actually have a model that is much cheaper than the classic data center model. That's basically usable. >> I'm smirking some people think I'm an Amazon web services fan boy but besides the fact that I love the company. They've done well and there's so many new services, and they literally have been skating rings around the competition. If you look at the complexity that they have been dealing with and the innovations. So the outputs put that out there. I'm a little biased 'cause I think they're doing a great job. But now, the game start to shift as Amazon continues to add more services. Welcome to the big leagues called the Enterprise and government, which they're doing some business in now. So the question is besides Amazon, those other guys. Verizon, the Telecos have really trying to figure out what to do with over the top for years. Now they're also powering a lot of multi tenet workloads as well, including their own stuff. So telecos and service providers out there, what are they doing because they're still critical infrastructure around the world. >> Actually, I think if we just use Amazon as a reference point or example. Amazon initially didn't worry about security but then over the last few years, worked hard to integrate security into their offering. We're now in the early stages of seeing that from for example carriers like Verizon. Where in the past Verizon was saying first secure yourself then in the last two years. Version okay, here's some products and services you can buy. But now where we're heading is they're trying to make the network inherently secure. A lot of the basic components like device matching to identity matching basically making that apart of the underlying fabric. So I think the good news is as-- >> So they're making advances there. They have networks. They know networking. >> So the good news is as bleak as it all seems as we are making significant progress as an industry and as a country. Having said that, my only and warning is you still need an executive team. A security team that knows how to leverage all of these components and pull them together. And that goes back to having a risk based approach and protecting the most important things. I think you can do that, I think the tool set that's come out now is actually pretty sophisticated. >> So final question, I want to get your thoughts and we can end the segment and then we'll take a little bit about Vidder, your company. But I asked Pat Gelsinger, CEO of VMware at VM World just recently about the security duo 'cause Dave Vellante asked him years ago. He said absolutely it's going to be (indistinct talking) so Pat Gelsinger has it right again. The guy is like Nostradamus when it comes to tech trend. He's a wave guy from Intel, so he gets the waves. But I asked him about that question again this year and I'll send the tip out on Twitter. I'll put it out on Twitter, I'll make a link to it. He said that 5G is going to be the big kahuna of the next 30 years. He thinks that as 5G starts to get out, it's going to develop 10X number of antennas, 100X of bandwidth, new spectrum allocations, 100X new devices, they're all going to be connected as well. As you mentioned we're a connected world. This brings up the edges of the network where he says, "Next thirty years is going to be massive build out." So okay, 5G is coming. Industrial IoT, IoT internet of things is happening. How is this going to change a security game because now you have networking and you see VMware. We're doing NSX and Cisco has been trying to the Enterprise figuring out the virtualization of network level. Everything comes back down to the network. Is that where the action is because it seems to me that the network guys have to figure this out. And that seems to be the point of reference in terms of opportunity. Or is it a challenge or is it moving up the stack. How does all the networking changes happen? >> So for IoT, we really need two things to happen. I think one is we actually don't have a security standard for IoT devices. And specifically the issue is malware. IoT devices and softwares made worldwide and I think one of the biggest policy weaknesses we have right now is there's no minimum standard. This needs to be solved, otherwise we're in a lot of problem but in parallel to that. There is a lot of technical development. One of the things that's happening in the networking world is for the past 20 years. We were driven by what's called a network VPN of Layer 3 VPN, it's your classic VPN, that connects a device to a server. The problem with that is if you have malware on the device it gets through. So there's this new kind of VPN which is an application VPN or we call it a Layer 4, which is basically a softer process in the device tool. A softer process in a server. So that's the new model, which is-- >> They're making them as dumb as possible and go up the stat. >> Not so much-- >> There were guys that are going to roll-- >> I could have used different terms. I could have say make the app network application aware so that it only lets the applications get through. Not any kind of connection, so I think that is something. >> Well the networks have to smarter and enable the smartness. >> So smarter networks are happening and it's an area that I worked in. It's very excited. >> John: I don't mean to offend you by saying dumb network-- >> But the application but to be clear though that's just one piece of the puzzle. The other piece of the puzzle which unfortunately is a little bit lacking is there's no standards for IoT software today. And unless we have concepts like secure boot, that is the software can't be tampered with. I think I've unfortunately there's a bit of risk but I'm hopeful-- >> And then IoT for folks watching, there might be any inside baseball. It's a surface area problem. There's more points of attack vectors, so we talk about the compliance thing. >> Not only are there more attacks, by and large IoT devices are made outside of the United States. Physically they are made in China and a lot of the software comes from India. And there's nothing wrong with that, but the global supply chain provides plenty of opportunities for cyber attackers to inject in their code. And this is something we need to watch very carefully and then like I said-- >> So this is actually one of those weird derivative results of outsourcing that American companies have realized that's a problem. >> Yeah so. >> Is that right? >> Yeah so it's something we need to watch carefully. >> Okay, thanks for coming on the theCube. Really appreciate you sharing your perspectives. Talk about Vidder, you're the president and CTO. You guys in the security business. Obviously you're an expert with (indistinct talking). We'll have you back and multiple times. I'd love to get your company as we follow all the security trends. We have a cyber connect conference with Centrified coming up in New York. We're covering gov Cloud AWS and other players out there. What's Vidder doing? What's the company do for products? How do you guys sell? Who's your customers and what are the cool things you're doing? >> We've developed a access control solution based on a new standard called software defined parameter. And there's two things that are unique about it. First with technology like software defined parameter. We work in the Cloud in the data center, but more importantly, we're able to stop existing attacks and emerging attacks. So things like password theft, credential theft of server exploitation we stop because we don't want to allow connections from unknown devices or people. The other thing is say you're known, and you connect with server. We basically look inside your laptop and only allow the authorized process to connect to the server. So if there's malware on the device, it can't actually make it through. >> John: So it shuts down the malware. >> That's right. >> John: So you're trying sneak through. >> That's right, the malware. We can't stop the malware from getting on the device, but we can make sure it doesn't get to the other side. >> So it doesn't cross pollinate. It doesn't go viral. >> That right so a lot of the stuff we do is very important. We work with a range of-- >> You have government, obviously contracts. I'm sure you have that can't talk about but you do right? >> Yeah we do a little bit of work with the government and we're just start working with Verizon, which is public. Where they wish to create services where malware actually can't go through the connections. So we're doing exciting stuff and we're-- >> Enterprise customers at all? >> Yeah, yeah we have banks. >> Who are on high alert. >> That's right. >> You guys do tier one or it's the houses are burning down, you're there. So we do banks and we're just started doing some work in a hospital were again it's (indistinct talking) compliant, and they need to make sure that data doesn't leave the hospital. >> So what's the number one thing that you guys have as ransomware something that you solve. What areas do you guys being called in? What's the big fire bell, if you will? They ring the bell when do you come in? What the thing, just in general? >> Our number one reason for existing is stopping attacks on application servers or service that old data. That's our focus. So if you have data or an application that someone is after. We will make sure nobody gets to that data. In fact, we'll even make sure if there's a spy, or insider attack, who comes into your organization. They'll only be able to what their allowed to do and won't be able to do anything else. >> So on the weekly Fox that was big. Would you guys have helped there is they were a customer or is that just different thing? >> I know we could have helped because one of the things that happened is they used their server exploit to basically propagate through their data center. So we probably wouldn't have done much on the initial exploit, but we would have kept it from going deeper into the system. >> And they hid for four months and they were poking around so you would have detected. >> Yeah and we certainly would have stopped all the poking around. Because we basically, you can think of us as an identity based access control mechanism. So based on your identity, you can only do very specific things. And in their case, they had the identity of the user. We wouldn't have let them do anything except maybe just go to one website. >> Yeah you would have shut them down. They should have been doing business with Vidder. Jay thank you for coming on theCube here for theCubeConversation in Palo Alto, California. I'm Jon Furrier with theCubeConversation. Thanks for watching. (slow orchestral music)