(upbeat music) >> Welcome back to the Quantcast Industry Summit on the demise of third-party cookies, The Cookie Conundrum, A Recipe for Success. We're here with Peter Day, the CTO, Quantcast and Shruti Koparkar, Head of Product Marketing Quancast. Thanks for coming on. Talk about the changing advertising landscape. >> Thanks for having us. >> Thank you for having us. >> So we've been hearing the story out to the big players, want to keep the data, make that centralized, control all the leverage, and then you've got the other end. You've got the open internet that still wants to be free and valuable for everyone. What's what are you guys doing to solve this problem? Because if cookies go away, what's going to happen there? How do people track things? You guys are in this business? First question, what is Quancast strategy to adapt to third-party cookies going away? What's going to be the answer? >> Yeah, so very rightly said, John. The mission, the Quancast mission is to champion of free and open internet. And with that in mind, our approach to this a world without third party cookies is really grounded in three fundamental things. First is industry standards. We think it's really important to participate and to work with organizations who are defining the standards that will guide the future of advertising. So with that in mind we've been participating with IAB Tech Lab, We've been part of their project, we are same thing with Prebid, who's kind of trying to figure out the pipes of identity the ID pipes of the future. And then also is W3C which is the World Wide Web Consortium. And our engineers and our engineering team are participating in their weekly meetings, trying to figure out what's happening with the browsers and keeping up with the progress there on things such as Google's FLoC. The second sort of thing is interoperability. As you've mentioned that a lots of different ID solutions that are emerging. You have UID 2.0, you have LiveRamp, you have Google's FLoC, and there will be more, there are more, and they will continue to be more. We really think it is important to build a platform that can ingest all of these signals. And so that's what we've done. The reason really is to meet our customers where they are at. Today our customers use multiple Data Management Platforms, DMPs. And that's why we support multiple of those. This is not going to be much different than that. We have to meet our customers where we are, or where they are at. And then finally, of course, which is at the very heart of who Quancast is, is innovation. As you can imagine being able to take all of these multiple signals in, including the IDs and the cohorts, but also others like contextual first party consent is becoming more and more important. And then there are many other signals like time, language, geolocation. So all of these signals can help us understand user behavior, intent and interests. In absence of third party cookies. However there's something to note about these. They're very raw, they're complex, they're messy, all of these different signals. They are changing all the time, their real time. And those incomplete in information isolation, just one of these signals can not help you build up true and complete picture. So what you really need is a technology like AI and Machine Learning, to really bring all of these signals together, combine them statistically, and get an understanding of user behavior intent and interest, and then act on it. Be it in terms of providing audience insights, or responding to bid requests and so on and so forth. So those are sort of the three fundamentals that our approach is grounded in which is industry standards, interoperability, and innovation. And you know, you have Peter here >> Yeah. who is the expert so you can dive much deeper into it. >> So Peter is CTO. You've got to tell us, how is this going to actually work? What are you guys doing from a technology standpoint to help with data-driven advertising and a third-party cookieless world? >> Well, we've been this is not a shock. You know, I think anyone who's been close to this space has known that the third party cookie has been reducing in quality in terms of its pervasiveness and its longevity for many years now. And the kind of death knell is really Google Chrome, making the changes that, they're going to be making. So we've been embarrassing in this space for many years and we've had to make a number of hugely diverse investments. So one of them is in how to, as a marketer how do I tell it my marketing still working in a world without (indistinct). The majority of marketers, completely relying on third party cookies today. It's tell them if their marketing is working or not. And so we've had to invest heavily and statistical techniques, which are closer to kind of echo metric models that marketers are used to have things like out of home advertising. It's going to be establishing whether their advertising is working or not in a digital environment. And actually this as with often the case in these kind of times of massive disruption, there's always opportunity to make things better. And we really think that's true. And you know, digital measurement is often mistaken precision for accuracy and there's a real opportunity to kind of see the wood for the trees if you'd like. And start to come up with better methods of measuring the effectiveness of advertising without third party cookies. And we've had to make countless other investments in areas like contextual modeling, and targeting that third-party cookies and connecting directly to publishers rather than going through this kind of loom escape that's going to tied together third party cookies. So I could, if I was to enumerate all the investments we've made I think it would be here till midnight, but we've had to make a number of investments over a number years. And that level investments only increasing at the moment. >> Peter, on that contextual, can you just double click on that and tell us more? >> Yeah, I mean, contextual it is, unfortunately when I think this is really poorly defined. It can mean everything from a publisher saying, Hey trust us this page is about SUV's, it's a what's possible now. And it's only really been possible the last couple of years which is to build statistical models of the entire internet based on the content that people are actually consuming. And this type of technology requires massive data processing capabilities, it's able to take advantage of the latest innovations in areas like natural language processing. And really gives computers, that kind of much deeper and richer understanding of the internet, which ultimately makes it possible to kind of organize the internet, in terms of the types of content of pages. So this type of technology has only been possible for the last few years. And, but we've been using contextual signals since our inception. Had always been massively predictive in terms of audience behaviors, in terms of where advertising is likely to work. And so we've been very fortunate to keep that investment going and take advantage of many of these innovations that are happening in academia and in kind of an adjacent areas >> On the AI and Machine Learning aspect. That seems to be a great differentiator in this day and age for getting the most out of the data. How is machine learning and AI factoring into your platform? >> I think it's how we've always operated, right from our inception. When we started as a measurement company. The way that we were giving our customers at the time we were just publishers, just the publisher side of our business. Insights into who their audience was, which was using Machine Learning techniques. And that's never really changed. The foundation of our platform has always been Machine Learning from before it was cool. A lot of our, kind of a lot of our co-teams have backgrounds in Machine Learning, and the PhDs in statistics and Machine Learning. And that really drives our decision-making. I mean, data is only useful if you can make sense of it and if you can organize it, and if you can take action on it, and to do that at this kind of scale it's absolutely necessary to use Machine Learning technology. >> So you mentioned contextual also, you know, in advertising we have everyone knows and that world that you got the contextual and behavioral dynamics. The behavior that's kind of generally can everyone's believing is happening. The consensus is undeniable is that, people are wanting to expect an environment where there's trust, there's truth, but also they want to be locked in. They don't want to get walled into a walled garden. Nobody wants to be in a wall garden. They want to be free to pop around and visit sites. It's more horizontal scalability than ever before yet. The bigger players are becoming walled garden vertical platforms. So with future of AI, the experience is going to come from this data. So the behaviors out there. How do you get >> Yeah. that contextual relevance and provide the horizontal scale that users expect? >> Yeah, I think it's a really good point and we're definitely at this kind of tipping point, we think in the broader industry. I think, you know, every publisher, right? We're really blessed to work with the biggest publishers in the world. All the way through to my mom's blog, right? So we get to hear the perspectives of the publishers at every scale. And they consistently tell us the same thing. Which is they want some more directly connect to consumers. They don't want to be tied into these walled gardens, which dictate how they must present their content. And in some cases what content they're allowed to present. And so, you know, our job as a company is to really provide level the playing field a little bit. Provide them the same capabilities they're only used to in the walled gardens, but let, give them more choice. In terms of how they structure their content, how they organize their content, how they organize their audiences, but make sure that they can fund that effectively. By making their audiences and their environments discoverable by marketers, measurable by marketers, and connect them as directly as possible to make that kind of ad funded economic model, as effective in the open internet as it is in social. And so a lot of the investments we've made over recent years have been really to kind of realize that vision, which is, it should be as easy for a marketer to be able to understand people on the open internet, as it is in social media. It should be as effective for them to reach people in that environment, is really high quality content as it is on Facebook. And so we've invested a lot of our R&D dollars in making that true. And we're now live with the Quantcast Platform which does exactly that. And as third party cookies go away, it only kind of exaggerate all kind of further emphasizes the need for direct connections between brands and publishers. And so we just want to build a technology that helps make that true, and gives the kind of technology to these marketers and publishers to connect, and to deliver great experiences without relying on these kind of walled gardens. >> Yeah. The direct to consumer, direct to audience is a new trend. You're seeing it everywhere. How do you guys support this new kind of signaling from for that's happening in these new world? How do you ingest the content, ingest this consent signaling? >> We were really fortunate to have an amazing an amazing R&D team. And, you know, we've had to do all sorts to make this, you know, to realize our vision. This has meant things like we, you know we have crawlers which stand the entire internet at this point, extract the content of the pages, and kind of make sense of it, and organize it. And organize it for publishers so that they can understand how their audiences overlap with potentially their competitors or collaborators, but more importantly, organize it for marketers. So they can understand what kind of high-impact opportunities are there for them there. So, you know, we've had to build a lot of technology. We've had to build analytics engines which can get answers back in seconds, so that, you know marketers and publishers can kind of interact with it with their own data and make sense of it and present it in a way that is compelling and then help them drive their strategy as well as their execution. We've had to invest in areas like consent management. Because we believe that a free and open internet is absolutely reliant on trust. And therefore we spend a lot of our time thinking about how do we make it easy for end-users to understand who has access to that data and easy friendly and users to be able to opt out. And as a result of that, we've now got the world's most widely adopted consent management platform. So it's hard to tackle one of these problems without tackling all of them. And we're fortunate enough to have had a large enough R&D budget over the last four or five years, make a number of investments, everything from consent and identity, through to contextual signals, through to measurement technologies, which really bring advertisers and publishers closer together. >> Great insight there. Shruti last word for you. What's the customer view here as you bring these new capabilities of the platform. What's what are you guys seeing as the highlight from a platform perspective? >> So the initial response that we've seen from our customers has been very encouraging. Both on the publisher side, as well as the marketer side. I think, you know, one of the things we hear quite a lot is you guys are at least putting forth a solution and action solution for us to test. Peter mentioned measurement. That really is where we started because you cannot optimize what you cannot measure. So that is where his team has started. And we have some measurement, very very initial capabilities still in alpha, but they are available in the platform for marketers to test out today. So the initial response has been very encouraging. People want to engage with us. Of course, our, you know, our fundamental value proposition which is that the Quantcast platform was never built to be reliant on third party data, these stale segments. Like we operate we've always operated on real time live data. The second thing is our premium publisher relationships. We have had the privilege of working like Peter served with some of the biggest publishers but we also have a very wide footprint. We have first party tags across over a hundred million plus web and mobile destinations. And, you know, as you must've heard like that sort of first party footprint, is going to come in really handy in a world without third party cookies. We are encouraging all of our customers, publishers and marketers to grow their first party data. And so that's something that's a strong point that customers love about us and lean into it quite a bit. So, yeah, the initial response has been great. Of course it doesn't hurt that we've made all these R&D investments. We can talk about consent, and, you know, I often say that consent it sounds simple, but it isn't, there's a lot of technology involved. But there's lots of legal work involved as it as well. We have a very strong legal team who has expertise built in. So yeah, a very good response initially. >> Democratization, everyone's a publisher, everyone's a media company. They have to think about being a platform. You guys provide that. So congratulations Peter, thanks for dropping the gems there. Shruti thanks for sharing the product highlights. Thanks for your time. >> Thank you. >> Okay, this is the Quancast Industry Summit on the demise of third-party cookies and what's next The Cookie Conundrum, the Recipe for success with Quancast I'm John Berger with theCUBE. Thanks for watching. (upbeat music)

(upbeat music) >> Hello, welcome back to the Cookie Conundrum, A Recipe For Success an industry conference and summit from Quancast on the demise of third-party cookies. We've got a great industry panel here to break it down. Chris Guenther, senior vice president global head of Programmatic at News Corp. Chris, thanks for coming on. Xiao Lin, managing director solutions at Xaxis, and Somer Simpson, vice president of product at Quancast stellar panel. Looking forward to this conversation. Thanks for coming on and chatting about the cookie conundrum. >> Thank you for having us. >> So, Chris, we'll start with you at News Corp obviously major publisher. Deprecation of third-party cookies affects everyone. You guys have a ton of traffic, ton of audience across multiple formats. Tell us about the impact to you guys and the reliance you guys had on them. And what are you going to do to prepare for this next level change? >> Sure. I mean, I think like everyone in this industry there is a, you know, a significant reliance and I think it's something that a lot talk about audience targeting, but obviously they realize that third party cookies pervasive across the whole ad tech ecosystem, MarTech stack. And so, you know, we have to think about, you know how that impact, you know, our vendor the vendors we work with, what it means in terms of our use cases across marketing, across advertising across site experience. So, you know, without a doubt, it's significant. But you know, we look at it as listen. It's disruptive in disruption and change is always a little scary, but overall it's a it's a long overdue reset. I mean, I think that, you know, our perspective is that the the cookies, as we all know, is it was a crutch, right? It's sort of a technology being used in way it shouldn't. And so, as we look at what's going to happen presumably after Jan 2022, then it's a good way to kind of fix on some bad practices practices that lead to data, leakage, practice sort of devalued for our perspective. Some of the, you know, we offered as, as publishers. And I think that this is a key thing is that we're not just looking to as we look through post gen world, not just kind of recreating the prior world. Because the prior world was flawed or I guess I could say the current world since it hasn't changed yet. But the current world is flawed. Let's not just replicate that. You know, let's make sure that third party cookies goes away other work around like fingerprinting and things like that, you know, also go away. So, you know, philosophically that's where our head's at. And so, you know, as we look at how we are preparing you look at sort of what are the core building blocks of preparing for this world. Obviously one of the key ones is privacy compliance. Like how do we treat our users with consent? You know, obviously are we aligned with the regulatory environments? You know, in some ways we're not looking just to Jan 2022 but Jan 2023, where there's going to be the majority of our audiences, we covered by regulation. And so I think from regulation up to data gathering, to data activation, all built around an internal identifier that we've developed that allows us to have a a consistent look at our user is whether they're logged in or obviously, anonymous. So it's really looking across all those components, across all our sites, and all in a privacy compliant way. So a lot of work to be done, a lot of work in progress but you know, we're excited about what's going on. >> I like how you framed it, you know, old world or next gen kind of the current situation is kind of flawed. And as you think about Programmatic, the concept is mind blowing and what needs to be done. So we'll come back to that because I think that original content view is certainly relevant. It's a huge investment, and you've got great content and audience consuming it. Xiao, from a major media standpoint get your perspective on the impact because you've got clients who want to get their message out in front of the audience at the right time, at the right place and the right context. Right? So yeah, privacy, you got consent and all of these things kind of boiling up how do you help clients prepare? Because now they can go direct to the consumer. You know, everyone, everyone has a megaphone now everyone's you know, everyone's here, everyone's connected. So how are you impacted by this new notion? >> You know, if the cookieless future was a tik tok dance, we'd be dancing right now and at least until the next year. This has been top of mind for us and our clients for quite some time. But I think as each day passes the picture becomes clearer and more in focus. The end of the third party cookie does not mean the end of Programmatic. So clients work with us in transforming their investments into real business outcomes based on our expertise and based on our tech. So we continue to be in a great position to lead, to educate, to partner, and to grow with them along this cookieless future. The impact will be all encompassing in changing the ways we do things now and also accelerating the things that we've already been building on. So we take it from the top. Planning will have a huge impact because it's going to start becoming more strategic around real business outcomes. We're omni-channel. So clients wants to drive outcomes through multiple touch points of a consumer's journey. Whether that's programmatic, whether that's as a cookie free environment like connected TV, out of home, audio, gaming, and so forth. So we're going to see more of these strategic holistic plans. Creative will have a lot of impact. It will start becoming more important with Creative testing, Creative insights, you know, Creative in itself is cookieless. So there will be more focus on how to drive a brand dialogue, to connect to consumers with less targeting, with less cookies. With the cohesiveness of holistic planning, Creative can align through multiple channels. And lastly, the role of AI will become increasingly important. You know, we've always looked to build our tech, our products, to compliment new and existing technology as well as the client's own data and tech stack to deliver these outcomes for them. And AI in its core is just taking inputted data and having an output of your desired outcomes. So input data could be DSP data beyond cookies such as browser, such as location, such as contextual, a publisher taking client's first party data, first party CRM data like store visitation sales site activity. And using that to optimize in real time regardless of what vendor or what channel we're on. So as we're learning more about this cookieless dance, we're helping our clients on the steps of it, and also introducing our own moves. >> That's awesome. Data is going to be a key value proposition, you know connecting in with content real time. Great stuff. Somer, with your background in journalism and you're the tech VP of product at Quancast. You have the keys to the kingdom over there. It's interesting, journalism is about truth you know, good content, original content. But now you have a data challenge, problem, opportunity on both sides, brands and publishers coming together. This is a data problem in a way. It's a tech stack, not so much just, you know getting the right ads to show up at the right place, the right time. It's really bigger than that now. What's your take on this? >> You know, I, so first I think that consumers already sort of accept that there is a reasonable value exchange, you know, for their data, in order to access free content. Right? And that's a critical piece for us to all kind of understand. Over the past. Yeah, probably two years, since even before the GDPR, we've been doing a ton of discovery with customers, both publishers and marketers. And so, you know, we kind of known this this cookie going away thing is, has been coming and you know, Google's announcement just kind of confirmed it. And it's been really really interesting since Google's announcement how the conversations have changed with our customers and other folks that we talk to. And I've almost gone from being like a product manager to a therapist because there's such an emotional response. From the marketer perspective, there's real fear there. There's like, Oh my God, how you know, it's not just about delivering ads. It's about how do I control frequency? How do I measure, you know, success? You know, because the technology has grown so much over the years to really give marketers the ability to deliver personalized, you know, advertising good content to consumers and be able to monitor it and control it so that it's not too, too intrusive. On the publisher perspective side, we see a slightly different response. It's more of a yes. Right? You know, we're taking back control and we're going to stop the data leakage. We're going to get the value back for our inventory. Both things are a good thing. But if it's not managed, it's going to be like ships passing in the night. Right? In terms of, you know, them coming together. Right? And that's the critical pieces that they have to come together. They have to get closer. You got to cut out a lot of like that LUMAscape in the middle so that they can talk to each other and understand what's the value exchange happening between marketers and publishers and how do we do that without cookies? >> Yeah. It's a fascinating, I love your insight there. I think it's so relevant. And it's got broader implications because, you know, if you look at how data is impacting some of these big structural changes and refactoring of industries look at cybersecurity, you know no one wants to share their data but now if they share, they get more insight more machine learning, benefit, more AI benefit. So now we have the sharing notion but that goes against counter the big guys that want a walled garden. They want to hoard all the data and control that to provide their own personalization. So you have this confluence of, hey I want to hoard the data and then now I want to share the data. So Chris and Homer, in the wheelhouse you've got original content and there's other providers out there. So is there the sharing model coming? with privacy and these kinds of services is the open come back again? How do you guys see this? The confluence of open versus walled gardens. Because you need the data to make machine learning good. >> I'll start off. I mean, listen, I think you have to give credit to the walled gardens I've created. And I think as we look as publishers, what are we offering to our clients? What are we offering to the buy-side? We need to be compelling. We shouldn't just be, obviously, as journalists I think that there is a case of, you know the importance of funding journalism. But ultimately we need to make sure we're meeting the the KPIs and the business needs of the buy-side. And I think around that, it is, you know there's sort of three core pillars to that. It's ease of access, it's scope of activation and targeting, and finally, measurable results. So as I think, as us, as an individual publisher of so we have multiple publications so we do have scale, but then in partnership with other publishers perhaps organizations like Prebid, you know I think we can, we're trying to address that. And I think we can offer something that's compelling and transparent in terms of what these results are. But obviously, you know, I want to make sure it's clear that transparent terms of results, but obviously where there's privacy in terms of the data. And I I think we've all heard about like data clean rooms, a lot of them out there flogging those wares. And I think there's something valuable, but you know I think it's who is sort of the right partner or partners, and ultimately who allows us to get as close as possible to the buy side. And so that we can share that data for targeting shared for perhaps for measurement, but obviously all in a privacy compliant way. >> Somer, what's your take on this? Because you talk about the future of the open internet democratization. The network effect that we're seeing in virality and across multiple omni-channels as Xiao pointed out, it's happening. That's the distribution now. So that's almost an open garden model. So it's like >> Yeah. And yeah, it's, it's, you know back in the day, you know, Nightrider who was the first group that I, that I worked for, you know each of those individual properties were not hugely valuable on their own from a digital perspective. but together as a unit, they became valuable. Right. And got a scale for advertisers. Now we're in a place where, you know, I kind of think that each of those big networks are going to have to come together and work together to compare in size to the, to the walled gardens. And yeah, this is something that we've talked about before, an open garden. I think that's the definitely the right route to take. And I agree with Chris. It's about publishers getting as close to the marketers as possible, working with the tech companies that enable them to do that, and doing so in a very privacy centric way. >> Xiao how do we bring the brands and agencies together to get ready for third-party cookies? Because there is a therapist moment here of it's going to be okay, the parachute will open. The future is not going to be as grim. It's a real opportunity, but if managed properly. What's your take on this? Is it just more first party data strategy? And what's your assessment of this? >> So we're collaborating right now with ball grants on how to distill very complex cookieless future you know, what's going to happen in the future. To six steps that we can take right now and marketers should take. The first step is gather Intel on what's working on your current campaign analyzing the data sets across cookie free environment. So you can translate those tactics eventually when the cookies do go away. So we have to look at things like temporal or time analysis. We can look at log level data. We can look at site analytics data. We can look at brand measurement tools and how Creative really impacts the campaign success. The second thing we can look at is geo-targeting strategies. The geo-targeting strategy has been underrated because the granularity and DL data could go down all the way to the local level, even beyond zip code. So for example, the census block data. And this is especially important for CPG brands. So we're working closely with the client teams to understand not only the online data, but the offline data and how we can utilize that in the future. We want to optimize investments around markets that are working, so strong markets, and then test in underperforming markets. The third thing we can look at is contextual. So contextual by itself is cookie free. We could build on small-scale usage to test and learn various keywords and content categories based sets, working closely with partners to find ways to leverage their data, to mimic audiences that you are trying to target right now with cookies. The fourth one is publisher data or publisher targeting. So working with your publishers that you have strong relationships with who can curate similar audiences using their own first party data and conducting RFIs to understand the scale and reach against your audience and your future roadmap. So work with your top publishers based on historical data to try to recreate your best strategies. The fifth thing, and I think this is very important, is first party data. That's going to matter more than ever in the cookieless future. Brands will need to think about how to access and develop the first party data starting with the consumer, seeing of value in exchange for the information it's a goldmine and understanding your consumer their intent, their journey. And you need a really great data sciences team to extract insights out of that data, which will be crucial. So partner with strategic onboarding vendors and vet their ability to accept first party data into a clean room environment for targeting, for modeling, for insights. And lastly, the sixth thing that we can do is begin inform prospecting by dedicating test budget to start gaining learnings about cookieless. One, one place that we can start, and it is under invested right now, is Safari and Firefox. They have been cookieless for quite some time. So you can start here and begin testing here. Work with your data scientist team to understand the right mixes to target and start exploring other channels outside of just programmatic cookies. Like CTV, digit auto home, radio, gaming, and so forth. So those are the six steps that we're taking right now with our clients to prepare and plan for the cookieless future. >> So, Chris, let's go back to you. What's the solution here? Is there one, is there multiple solutions? What's the future look like for a cookieless future? >> I think the one certain answer is there definitely is not just one solution. As we all know right now, there seems to be endless solutions, a lot of ideas out there, proposals when the W3C, work happening within other industry bodies, you know, private company solutions being offered. And you know, it's a little bit, it's enough to make everyone's head spin and to try to track it to understand it and understand the impact. And as a publisher, we're obviously, you know, a lot of people are knocking on our door, you know they're saying, hey, our solution is one that it's going to bring in lots of money. You know, all the buy-side is going to use it. This is the one like unlock all the spend. And it's our experience so far is that none of these solutions are, cause I think everyone's still testing and learning. No one on the buy side from our, from our knowledge is really committed to one or a few. It's all about a testing stage. I think that, you know, putting aside all that noise I think what matters the most to us as publishers, actually something Somer mentioned before. It's about control. You know, if we're going to work with a, you know, again outside of our sort of independent internal identifier work that we're doing, if we're going to work with an outside party or an outside approach, does it give us control >> As a publisher to ensure that it is, you know we control the, the data from our users, you know there isn't that data leakage, it's privacy compliant. You know, what information gets shared out there? What is it what's released within, you know within the bitstream? If it is something that's attached to a, someone, a declared user, a registered user that if that then is not somehow amplified or leverage off in another site in a way that is leveraging bit stream data or fingerprinting and going again. And so I think that the spirit of what we're trying to do in a post third party cookie world. And so those controls are critical. And I think to have those controls as publisher we have to be collectively be disciplined. And you know, what solutions that we sort of we test out and what we eventually adopt. But even when that adoption point arrives it definitely will not be one. There will be multiple because there's just too many cases to address. >> Great, great insight there from you guys at News Corp. Somer, let's get back to you. I want to get your thoughts. You've been in many waves of innovation, ups and downs. We're on a new one now. We talked about the open internet and democratization. Journalism is under a lot of pressure now but there's now a wave of quality people, really leaning in towards fighting misinformation, understanding truth and community and data is at the heart of it. What do you see as the new future for journalists to reward journalism? Is there a way, is there a path forward? >> So there's what I hope is going to happen. And then I'm just going to ignore what could, right. You know, there's a trend in market right now at a number of fronts, right? So there are marketers who are leaning in to wanting to spend their marketing dollars with quality journalists, focusing on BiPAC owned and operated, really leaning into supporting those businesses that have been and those publishers that have been ignored for years. I really hope that this trend continues. We are leaning into helping marketers curate that supply, right. And, and really, you know, speak with their dollars about the things that they support and value in market. So I'm hoping that that trend continues. And it's not just sort of like a marketing blip but we will do everything possible to kind of encourage that behavior and give people the information that they need to find. You know, truly high quality journalism. >> That's awesome. Chris, Xiao, Somer, thanks for coming on and sharing your insight on this panel on the cookieless future. Before we go, just quick summary, each of you if you don't mind just giving a quick sound bite or bumper sticker of what we can expect. If you had to throw a prediction for what's going to happen in the next 24 months. Chris, we'll start with you. >> It's going to be quite a ride. I think that's an understatement. I think that there, I wouldn't be surprised if if Google delays the change to the Chrome by a couple months. And may give the industry some much needed time. But no one knows, I guess, I guess I'm not except for someone somewhere, we are deep within Chrome. So I think we all have to operate in a way that changes that happen, changes that happen quickly. And it's going to cover across all facets of the industry, all facets of, you know, from advertising and marketing. So just be prepared. >> Okay. Xiao. Along those same lines, be prepared. Nobody knows what's going to happen in the future. You know, we're all dancing in this together. I think for us, it's planning and preparing and also building on what we've already been working on. So omni-channel, AI, Creative, and I think clients will lean more into those different channels. >> Awesome. Somer, take us home. Last words. >> I think we're in the throwing spaghetti against the wall stage, right? So this is a time of discovery of leaning and trying everything out learning and iterating as fast as we possibly can. >> Awesome. And I love the cat in the background over your shoulder. I can't stop staring at your wonderful cat. Somer, thanks for coming on. Xiao, Chris, thanks for coming on this awesome panel industry breakdown of the Cookie Conundrum, a Recipe for Success data AI open the future is here. It's coming. It's coming fast. I'm John Furrier with theCUBE. Thanks for watching.

(smooth music) >> Hello, everyone. I'm John Furrier with theCUBE. I want to welcome Konrad Feldman, the founder and CEO of Quantcast here, to kick off the Quantcast Industry Summit on the demise of third-party cookies. The event's called 'The Cookie Conundrum, A Recipe for Success', the changing advertising landscape. Super relevant conversation, especially now more than ever. Konrad, welcome to your own program. Kicking this off! Thanks for holding this event. >> It's a pleasure. Great to chat with you today. >> So a big fan, been following your company since the founding of it, and analytics is always the prize of any data-driven company media. Anything's all data-driven now, talk about the open internet because now more than ever, it's under siege. As I, as I mentioned in my open we've been seeing the democratization a new trend of decentralization. We're starting to see, you know everyone's present online now. Clay Shirky, he wrote a book called, 'Here Comes Everyone' in 2005. Well, everyone's here, right? So, you know, we're, we're here. It's got to be more open but yet people are looking at it as closed right now you're seeing the big players, hoarding the data. What's your vision of this open internet? >> Well, an open internet exists for everyone. And if you think about the evolution of the internet, when the internet was created for the first time really in history, anyone that had access to the internet could publish the content whatever they were interested in, you could find an audience. And of course, that's grown to where we are today where 5 billion people around the world are able to engage in all sorts of content, whether that's entertainment or education, news, movies. What's perhaps not so widely understood is that most of that content is paid for by advertising. And there's a lot of systems that support advertising on the open internet and some of those are under siege today, certainly. >> And what's the big pressure point. Is it just more control of the data? Is it just that these walled gardens are wanting to you know, suck the audience in there? Is it monetization driving it? What's the, where's the friction? >> Well, the, the challenge is, is sort of the accumulation of power into a really small number of now giant corporations who have actually reduced a lot of the friction that marketers have in spending their money effectively. And it means that those companies are capturing a disproportionate spend of the, the ad budgets, that fund digital content. So the problem is if more of the money goes to them, less of it's going to independent content creators. It's actually getting harder for independent voices to to emerge and be heard. And so that's the real challenge is that as more power consolidates into just the limited number of tech giants. The funding path for the open internet becomes constrained. And there'll be less choice for consumers without having to pay for subscriptions. >> Yeah, everyone knows the more data you have the better and certainly but the centralized power when the trend is going the other way that the consensus is everyone wants to be decentralized more truth, more trust. All of this is being talked about on the heels of the Google's news around, you know, getting rid of third-party cookies and others have followed suit. What does this mean? I mean, this cookies have been the major vehicle for you know, tracking and getting that kind of data. What is it going to be replaced with? What is this all about? And can you share with us what the future will look like? >> Sure. Well, just as advertising funds the open internet, it's advertising technology that supports that advertising spend and it supports sort of the business of advertising that funds the open internet and within all of that technology is the need for different systems to be able to align around the identification of, for example, a consumer have they been to this site before? Have they seen an ad before? So there's all of these different systems that might be used for advertising, for measurement, for attribution, for creating personalization. And historically they've relied upon the third party cookie as the mechanism for synchronization. Well, the third-party cookie has been in decline for some time. It's already mostly gone from actually Apple Safari browser but Google's Chrome has so much control over how people access the internet. And so it was when Google announced that Chrome was going to deprecate the third party cookie that it really sort of focused the minds of the industry in terms of finding alternative ways to tailor content and ultimately to just simply measure the effectiveness of advertising. And so there's an enormous amount of innovation taking place right now to find alternative solutions. >> You know, some are saying that the free open internet was pretty much killed when you know, the big companies like Facebook and Google started bringing all this data in and kind of pulls all, sucks all the options out of the room, so to speak. What does this mean with cookies now getting rid of by Google. How does it impact publishers, because is it helpful? I mean, hurtful, I mean, where's the, where's the what's a publisher impact? >> Well, I don't think anyone really knows right now. So first of all, cookies weren't necessarily a very good solution to the sort of the challenge of maintaining state and understanding those sorts of, you know the delivery of advertising and so on. It's just the one that's commonly used. I think for different publishers it may mean different things, but you know many publishers need to be able to demonstrate the value and the effectiveness of the advertising solutions that they, that they deliver. So there'll be innovating in terms of how they use their first party data. There'll be continuing to use contextual solutions that have long been used to create advertising relevant relevance. I think the big question of course is how are we going to measure it that any of this is effective at all? Because everyone relies upon measuring advertising effectiveness to justify capturing those budgets in the first place. >> You know, you mentioned a contextual like it's come up a lot. Also in the other interviews we've done with the folks around the internet around this topic of machine learning is a big one, too. What is the impact of this with the modernization of, of, of the solution? You mentioned cookies, okay. Cookies, old technology, but the mechanisms in this ecosystem around it or not, it funds the open internet. What is that modern solution that goes that next level? Is it contextual metadata? Is that a shared systems? What's the >> It's a modernization of that. It's all of those and, and more there's no, there's no single solution to replace the third-party cookie. There'll be a combination of solutions. Part of that will be alternative identity mechanisms. So, you know you will start to see more registration walls to access content so that you have what's called a deterministic identifier. There will be statistical models so-called probabilistic models. Contextual has always been important. It will become more important and it will be combined with, you know we use contextual combining natural language processing with machine learning models to really understand the detailed context of different pages across the internet. You'll also see the use of first party data. And there are discussions about shared beta services as well. I think that it's going to be a whole set of different innovations that we'll need to inter-operate and it's going to be an evolutionary process. As people get used to using these different systems to sort of satisfy the different stages of the media fulfillment cycle from research and planning to activation, to measurement >> You brought up walled gardens. I want to just touch on, on on this kind of concept of walled gardens and, and compare and contrast that with the demand for community. Open internet has always fostered a community vibe. You see network effects mostly in distinct user communities or subnets sub networks. if you will. Kind of walled gardens became that kind of group get together, but then became more of a media solution to make the users the product as they say, Facebook is a great example, right? People talk about Facebook and from that misinformation, abuse. So walled gardens, not the best thing happening right now in the world, but yet, is there any other choice? That's how they're going to make money but yet everyone wants trust, truth, community. Are they mutually exclusive? How do you see this evolving? What's your take? >> Well, I think the open internet is a forum where anyone can have their voice, put their voice out there and have it discovered. And it's in that regard, it's, it's a force for good. Look, I think there are, there are challenges obviously in terms of some of the some of the optimization that takes place within inside the walled gardens. Such as, sort of optimized to drive engagement can have some unintended consequences and obviously that's something that's broadly being discussed today and the impact on society, but sort of more at a more pointed level is just the absorption of advertising dollars. There's a finite amount of money from advertisers. It's estimated to be $400 billion this year in digital advertising. So it's a huge amount of money in terms of funding, the open internet, which sounds great except for it's increasingly concentrated in a tiny number of companies. And so our job at Quantcast as champions of the free and open internet is to help direct money effectively to publishers across the open internet and give advertisers a reliable, repeatable way of accessing the audiences that they care about in the environments they care about and delivering advertising results. >> As a publisher, we care a lot about what our audience wants and try to serve them and listen to them. If we could get the data, we want that data. And then also broker in the monetization with advertisers who might want to reach that audience in whatever way. So this brings up the question of, you know automation and role of data. You know, this is a huge thing of to having that data closed loop if you will, for, for publishers. But yet most publishers are small, some niche, and even as they can become super large, they don't have all the data and more the more data, the better the machine learning. >> That's right. >> So what's the answer to this, as it goes forward how do we get there? What's the dots that that we need to connect to get to that future state? >> So I think it takes, it takes companies working together effectively. I think a really important part of it is, is a more direct conversation with consumers. You know, we've seen that change beginning to happen over the past few years, with the introduction of of regulations that require clear communication to consumers about the data that's captured and why. And I think that creates an opportunity to explain to your audiences the way in which content, is funded. So I think that consumer can that consumer conversation will be part of the collective solution. >> You know, I want to, as we wind down this kickoff segment get your thoughts and vision around the evolution of the internet and you guys have done some great work at Quantcast, it's well documented. But everyone used to talk about traffic, you know buy traffic, then it became cost of acquisitions, PPC search. This is either mechanisms that people have been using for a long, long time. Then, you know your connections but audiences is about traffic, audience traffic. If everyone is online doesn't that become about networks and the people. So I want to get your thoughts and your vision because if community is going to be more important than people agree that it is and things are going to be decentralized, more openness more voices to be heard, you need to address the ability. The formation of networks and groups become super important. What's your vision on that? >> So, my vision is to create relevance and utility for consumers. I think there's one of the things that's often forgotten is that when we make advertising more relevant and useful for consumers, it automatically fulfills the objectives that publishers and marketers have. Everyone wins when advertising is more relevant and our vision is to make advertising relevant across the entire open internet. So that that ad supported model can continue to flourish in that and that 5 billion and hopefully many more billions in the future, people around the world have access to high quality, diverse content. >> If someone asks you Conrad what is Quantcast doing to make the open internet viable now that Cookie's going away? What's the answer? >> So well, the cookie piece is a is a central piece of it in terms of finding solutions that will enable sort of planning, activation and measurement post cookies. And we have a lot of innovation going on there. We're also working with a range of industry bodies and our partners to build solutions for this. What we're really trying to do is to make buying the open internet as straightforward for marketers as it is today in buying the walled gardens. The reason the walled gardens capture so much money is they made it really easy for marketers to get results. Marketers would like to be able to spend their money across all of the diverse publishers of the open internet. You know, our job at Quantcast is to make it just as easy to effectively spend money in funding the content that they really care about in reaching the audiences that they want. >> Great stuff. Great mission, Conrad. Thanks for coming on. Conrad Feldman, founder and CEO here at the 'Cookie Conundrum, Recipe for Success' event. Quantcast industry summit on the demise of third-party cookies. Thank you, Conrad. Appreciate it. >> Thank you. >> Stay with us for more on the industry event around the demise of cookies.

>>what? Hello, I'm john free with the cube. I want to welcome Conrad Feldman, the founder and Ceo of Kwan cast here to kick off the quan cast industry summit on the demise of third party cookies. The events called the cookie conundrum, a recipe for success. The changing advertising landscape, super relevant conversation just now. More than ever. Conrad welcome to your own program kicking this off. Thanks for holding this event. It's a pleasure. Great to chat with you today. So a big fan been following your company since the founding of it. Been analytics is always the prize of any data driven company. Media. Anything's all data driven now. Um, talk about the open internet because now more than ever it's under siege. As I, as I mentioned in my open, um, we've been seeing the democratization, a new trend of decentralization. We're starting to see um, you know, everyone's present online now, Clay Shirky wrote a book called, here comes everyone in 2005. Well everyone's here. Right? So you know, we're here, it's gonna be more open. But yet people are looking at as close right now. You're seeing the big players, um, or in the data. What's your vision of this open internet? >>Well, an open internet exists for everyone. And if you think about the evolution of the internet, when the internet was created for the first time really in history, anyone that had access to the internet could publish the content, whatever they were interested in and could find an audience. And of course that's grown to where we are today, where five billion people around the world are able to engage in all sorts of content, whether that's entertainment or education, news, movies. What's perhaps not so widely understood is that most of that content is paid for by advertising and there's a lot of systems that support advertising on the open Internet and some of those are under siege today certainly. >>And what's the big pressure point? Is it just more control the data? Is it just that these walled gardens are wanting to, you know, suck the audience in there? Is that monetization driving it? What's where's the friction? >>Well, the challenges is sort of the accumulation of power into a really small number of now giant corporations who have actually reduced a lot of the friction that marketers have in spending their money effectively. And it means that those companies are capturing a disproportionate spend of the ad budgets that fund digital content. So the problem is if more of the money goes to them, less of its going to independent content creators. It's actually getting harder for independent voices to emerge and be heard. And so that's the real challenges. That has more power consolidates into just a limited number of tech giants. The funding path for the open Internet becomes constrained and there'll be less choice for consumers without having to pay for subscriptions. >>Everyone knows the more data you have the better and certainly, but the centralized power when the trend is going the other way, the consensus is everyone wants to be decentralized more truth, more trust all this is being talked about on the heels of the google's news around, you know, getting rid of third party cookies and others have followed suit. Um, what does this mean? I mean, this cookies have been the major vehicle for tracking and getting that kind of data. What is gonna be replaced with what is this all about? And can you share with us what the future will look like? >>Sure, Well, just as advertising funds the open Internet is advertising technology that supports that advertising spend. It supports sort of the business of advertising that funds the open Internet. And within all of that technology is the need for different systems to be able to align around um the identification of for example, a consumer, Have they been to this site before? Have they seen an ad before? So there's all of these different systems that might be used for advertising for measurement, for attribution, for creating personalization. And historically they've relied upon the third party cookie as the mechanism for synchronization. Well, the third party cookie has been in decline for some time. It's already mostly gone from actually apple safari browser, but google's chrome has so much control over how people access the internet. And so it was when Google announced that chrome was going to deprecate the third party cookie, that it really sort of focus the minds of the industry in terms of finding alternative ways to tailor content and ultimately to just simply measure the effectiveness of advertising. And so there's an enormous amount of um innovation taking place right now to find alternative solutions. >>You know, some are saying that the free open internet was pretty much killed when, you know, the big comes like facebook and google started bringing all this data and kind of pulls all sucks all the auction in the room, so to speak. What's this mean with cookies now getting, getting rid of um, by google has an impact publishers because is it helpful? I mean hurtful. I mean, where's the where is that, what the publisher impact? >>Well, I don't think anyone really knows right now. So first of all, cookies weren't necessarily a very good solution to the sort of the challenge of maintaining state and understanding those sorts of the delivery of advertising and so on. It's just the one that's commonly used, I think for different publishers it may mean different things. But many publishers need to be able to demonstrate the value and the effectiveness of the advertising solutions that they deliver. So they'll be innovating in terms of how they use their first party data. They'll be continuing to use contextual solutions that have long been used to create advertising relevant, relevant. I think the big question of course is how we're going to measure it that any of this is effective at all because everyone relies upon measuring advertising effectiveness to justify capturing those budgets in the first place. >>You know, you mentioned contextual come up a lot also in the other interviews we've done with the folks in the around the internet around this topic of machine learning is a big 12 What is the impact of this with the modernization of the solution? You mentioned cookies? Okay cookies, old technology. But the mechanisms in this ecosystem around it or not, it funds the open internet. What is that modern solution that goes that next level? Is it contextual metadata? Is that shared systems? What's the it's the modernization of that. >>It's all of those and and more. There's no there's no single solution to replace the third party cookie. There'll be a combination of solutions. Part of that will be alternative identity mechanisms. So you know, you will start to see more registration wars to access content so that you have what's called a deterministic identify there will be statistical models so called probabilistic models, contextual has always been important. It will become more important and it will be combined with we use contextual combining natural language processing with machine learning models to really understand the detailed context of different pages across the internet. You'll also see the use of first party data and there are discussions about shared data services as well. I think there's gonna be a whole set of different innovations that will need to inter operate and it's going to be an evolutionary process as people get used to using these different systems to satisfy the different stages of the media fulfillment cycle from research and planning to activation to measurement. >>You know, you put up walled gardens. I want to just touch on the on on this kind of concept of walled gardens and and and and compare and contrast that with the demand for community, open internet has always fostered a community vibe. You see network effects mostly in distinct user communities or subnets of sub networks. If you will kind of walled gardens became that kind of group get together but then became more of a media solution to make the user is the product, as they say, facebook's a great example, right? People talk about facebook and from that misinformation abuse walled garden is not the best thing happening right now in the world, but yet is there any other other choice? That's how they're going to make money? But yet everyone wants trust, truth community. Are they usually exclusive? How do you see this evolving, what's your take? >>Well, I think the open internet is a, is a forum where anyone can have their voice, uh, put their voice out there and have it discovered and it's in that regard, it's a it's a force for good look. I think there are there are challenges, obviously in terms of some of the some of the optimization that takes place with inside the walled gardens, which is, is sort of optimized to drive engagement can have some unintended consequences. Um obviously that's something that's, that's broadly being discussed today and the impact on society, but sort of more at a more pointed level, it's just the absorption of advertising dollars. There's a finite amount of money from advertisers. It's estimated to be $400 billion this year in digital advertising. So it's a huge amount of money in terms of funding the open Internet, which sounds great except for its increasingly concentrated in a tiny number of companies. And so, you know, our job at Quan cast as champions of the free and open Internet is to help direct money effectively to publishers across the open internet and give advertisers a reliable, repeatable way of accessing the audiences that they care about in the environment they care about and delivering advertising results. >>It's a publisher, we care a lot about what our audience wants and try to serve them and listen to them. If we could get the data, we want that data and then also broker in the monetization with advertisers, who might want to reach that audience in whatever way. So this brings up the question of, you know, automation and role of data. You know, this is a huge thing to having that data closed loop, if you will for for publishers. But yet most publishers are small, some niche. And even as they can become super large, they don't have all the data and more, the more data, the better the machine learning. So what's the answer to this as it goes forward? How do we get there? What's the dots that that we need to connect to get that future state? >>So I think it takes it takes companies working together effectively. I think a really important part of it is, is a more direct conversation with consumers. We've seen that change beginning to happen over the past few years with the introduction of regulations that require clear communication to consumers about the data that's captured. And y and I think that creates an opportunity to explain to your audience is the way in which content is funded. So I think that consumer that consumer conversation will be part of the collective solution. >>You know, I want to as we wind down this kickoff segment, get your thoughts and vision around um, the evolution of the internet and you guys have done some great work at quan Cast is well documented, but everyone used to talk about traffic by traffic, then it became cost of acquisitions. PPC search. This is either mechanisms that people have been using for a long, long time, then you know, your connections but audience is about traffic, audience traffic. If this if my family is online, doesn't it become about networks and the people. So I want to get your thoughts and your vision because if community is going to be more important than people agree that it is and things are gonna be decentralized, more openness, more voices to be heard. You need to dress ability. The formation of networks and groups become super important. What's your vision on that? >>So my vision is to create relevance and utility for consumers. I think that's one of the things that's often forgotten is that when we make advertising more relevant and useful for consumers, it automatically fulfils the objectives that publishers and marketers have, everyone wins when advertising is more relevant. And our vision is to make advertising relevant across the entire open internet so that that ad supported model can continue to flourish and that five billion and hopefully many more billions in the future, people around the world have access to high quality, diverse content. >>If someone asked you Conrad, what is quant cast doing to make the open internet viable now that cookies are going away? What's the answer? >>So well, the cookie pieces is a central piece of it in terms of finding solutions that will enable sort of planning activation and measurement post cookies and we have a lot of innovation going on. There were also working with a range of industry bodies and our and our partners to build solutions for this. What we're really trying to do is to make buying the open internet as straightforward for marketers as it is today and buying the walled gardens. The reason the walled gardens capture so much money is they made it really easy for marketers to get results, marketers would like to be able to spend their money across all of the diverse publishes the open internet. You know, our job at Comcast is to make it just as easy to effectively spend money in funding the content that they really care about in reaching the audiences that they want. >>Great stuff. Great Mission. Conrad, thanks for coming on. Conrad Feldmann founder and Ceo here at the cookie conundrum recipe for success event, Quant Cast Industry summit on the demise of third party cookies. Thank you. Conrad appreciate it. Thank you. Yeah, I'm john ferrier, stay with us for more on the industry event around the middle cookies. Mhm Yeah, yeah, thank you. Mhm. Welcome back to the Qantas industry summit on the demise of third party cookies, the cookie conundrum, a recipe for success. I'm john furrier host of the cube, the changing landscape of advertising is here and shit Gupta, founder of you of digital is joining us chief. Thanks for coming on this segment. Really appreciate, I know you're busy, you've got two young kids as well as providing education to the digital industry, you got some kids to take care of and train them to. So welcome to the cube conversation here as part of the program. >>Yeah, thanks for having me excited to be here. >>So the office of the changing landscape of advertising really centers around the open to walled garden mindset of the web and the big power players. We know the big 34 tech players dominate the marketplace so clearly in a major inflection point and we've seen this movie before Web mobile revolution which was basically a reply platform NG of capabilities. But now we're in an error of re factoring the industry, not re platt forming a complete changing over of the value proposition. So a lot at stake here as this open web, open internet, global internet evolves. What are your, what's your take on this, this industry proposals out there that are talking to this specific cookie issue? What does it mean? And what proposals are out there? >>Yeah, so, you know, I I really view the identity proposals and kind of to to kind of groups, two separate groups. So on one side you have what the walled gardens are doing and really that's being led by google. Right, so google um you know, introduce something called the privacy sandbox when they announced that they would be deprecating third party cookies uh as part of the privacy sandbox, they've had a number of proposals unfortunately, or you know, however you want to say they're all bird themed for some reason, I don't know why. Um but the one, the bird theme proposal that they've chosen to move forward with is called flock, which stands for Federated learning of cohorts. And essentially what it all boils down to is google is moving forward with cohort level learning and understanding of users in the future after third party cookies, unlike what we've been accustomed to in this space, which is a user level understanding of people and what they're doing online for targeting tracking purposes. And so that's on one side of the equation, it's what google is doing with flock and privacy sandbox now on the other side is, you know, things like unified I. D. Two point or the work that I. D five is doing around building new identity frameworks for the entire space that actually can still get down to the user level. Right? And so again, unified I. D. Two point oh comes to mind because it's the one that's probably got the most adoption in the space. It's an open source framework. So the idea is that it's free and pretty much publicly available to anybody that wants to use it and unified, I need to point out again is user level. So it's it's basically taking data that's authenticated data from users across various websites you know that are logging in and taking those authenticated users to create some kind of identity map. And so if you think about those two work streams right, you've got the walled gardens and or you know, google with flock on one side and then you've got unified I. D. Two point oh and other I. D. Frameworks for the open internet. On the other side, you've got these two very differing type of approaches to identity in the future. Again on the google side it's cohort level, it's going to be built into chrome. Um The idea is that you can pretty much do a lot of the things that we do with advertising today, but now you're just doing it at a group level so that you're protecting privacy, whereas on the other side of the open internet you're still getting down to the user level. Um And that's pretty powerful. But the the issue there is scale, right? We know that a lot of people are not logged in on lots of websites. I think the stat that I saw is under five of all website traffic is authenticated. So really if you if you simplify things you boil it all down, you have kind of these two very differing approaches. >>I guess the question it really comes down to what alternatives are out there for cookies and which ones do you think will be more successful? Because I think, you know, the consensus is at least from my reporting, in my view, is that the world agrees. Let's make it open, Which one is going to be better. >>Yeah, that's a great question, john So as I mentioned, right, we have we have to kind of work streams here, we've got the walled garden work streams, work stream being led by google and their work around flock, and then we've got the open internet, right? Let's say unified I. D to kind of represents that. I personally don't believe that there is a right answer or an endgame here. I don't think that one of them wins over the other, frankly, I think that, you know, first of all, you have those two frameworks, neither of them are perfect, they're both flawed in their own ways. There are pros and cons to both of them. And so what we're starting to see now is you have other companies kind of coming in and building on top of both of them as kind of a hybrid solution. Right? So they're saying, hey, we use, you know, an open I. D. Framework in this way to get down to the user level and use that authenticated data and that's important. But we don't have all the scale. So now we go to google and we go to flock to kind of fill the scale. Oh and hey, by the way, we have some of our own special sauce, right? We have some of our own data, we have some of our own partnerships, we're gonna bring that in and layer it on top. Right? And so really where I think things are headed is the right answer, frankly, is not one or the other. It's a little mishmash of both. With a little extra something on top. I think that's that's what we're starting to see out of a lot of companies in the space. And I think that's frankly where we're headed. >>What do you think the industry will evolve to, in your opinion? Because I think this is gonna, you can't ignore the big guys on this because these programmatic you mentioned also the data is there. But what do you think the market will evolve to with this, with this conundrum? >>So, so I think john where we're headed? You know, I think we're right now we're having this existential existential crisis, right? About identity in this industry, because our world is being turned upside down, all the mechanisms that we've used for years and years are being thrown out the window and we're being told they were gonna have new mechanisms, Right? So cookies are going away device ids are going away and now we got to come up with new things and so the world is being turned upside down and everything that you read about in the trades and you know, we're here talking about it, right? Like everyone's always talking about identity right now, where do I think this is going if I was to look into my crystal ball, you know, this is how I would kind of play this out. If you think about identity today. Right? Forget about all the changes. Just think about it now and maybe a few years before today, Identity for marketers in my opinion has been a little bit of a checkbox activity. Right? It's been hey, um, okay, uh, you know ad tech company or a media company, do you have an identity solution? Okay. Tell me a little bit more about it. Okay, Sounds good. That sounds good. Now can we move on and talk about my business and how are you going to drive meaningful outcomes or whatever for my business? And I believe the reason that is, is because identity is a little abstract, right? It's not something that you can actually get meaningful validation against. It's just something that, you know. Yes, You have it. Okay, great. Let's move on, type of thing. Right. And so that, that's, that's kind of where we've been now, all of a sudden The cookies are going away, the device ids are going away. And so the world is turning upside down in this crisis of how are we going to keep doing what we were doing for the last 10 years in the future. So everyone's talking about it and we're trying to re engineer right? The mechanisms now if I was to look into the crystal ball right 2 3 years from now where I think we're headed is not much is going to change. And what I mean by that john is um uh I think that marketers will still go to companies and say do you have an ID solution? Okay tell me more about it. Okay uh Let me understand a little bit better. Okay you do it this way. Sounds good. Now the ways in which companies are going to do it will be different right now. It's flock and unified I. D. And this and that right. The ways the mechanisms will be a little bit different but the end state right? Like the actual way in which we operate as an industry and kind of like the view of the landscape in my opinion will be very simple or very similar, right? Because marketers will still view it as a tell me you have an ID solution. Make me feel good about it. Help me check the box and let's move on and talk about my business and how you're going to solve for my needs. So I think that's where we're going. That is not by any means to discount this existential moment that we're in. This is a really important moment where we do have to talk about and figure out what we're going to do in the future. My just my viewpoint is that the future will actually not look all that different than the present. >>And I'll say the user base is the audience. Their their data behind it helps create new experiences, machine learning and Ai are going to create those and we have the data you have the sharing it or using it as we're finding shit Gupta great insight dropping some nice gems here. Founder of you of Digital and also the Adjunct professor of Programmatic advertising at Levi School of Business and santa Clara University professor. Thank you for coming dropping the gems here and insight. Thank you. >>Thanks a lot for having me john really appreciate >>it. Thanks for watching. The cooking 100 is the cube host Jon ferrier me. Thanks for watching. Mhm. Yeah. Mhm. Hello welcome back to the cookie conundrum recipe for success and industry conference and summit from Guanacaste on the demise of third party cookies. Got a great industry panel here to break it down chris Gunther Senior Vice president Global Head of programmatic at news corp chris thanks for coming on Zal in Managing Director Solutions at Z axis and Summer Simpson. Vice president Product at quan cast stellar panel. Looking forward to this conversation. Uh thanks for coming on and chatting about the cookie conundrum. Thank you for having us. So chris we'll start with you at news corp obviously a major publisher deprecation of third party cookies affects everyone. You guys have a ton of traffic, ton of audience across multiple formats. Um, tell us about the impact to you guys and the reliance he has had on them. And what are you gonna do to prepare for this next level change? >>Sure. I mean, I think like everyone in this industry there's uh a significant reliance and I think it's something that a lot of talk about audience targeting but obviously that reliance on third party cookies pervasive across the whole at tech ecosystem Martek stack. And so you know, we have to think about how that impact vendor vendors, we work with what it means in terms of use cases across marketing, across advertising, across site experience. So, you know, without a doubt, it it's it's significant, but you know, we look at it as listen, it's disruptive, uh, disruption and change is always a little scary. Um, but overall it's a, it's a long overdue reset. I mean, I think that, you know, our perspective is that the cookies, as we all know was it was a crutch, right sort of a technology being used in way it shouldn't. Um, and so as we look at what's going to happen presumably after Jan 2022 then it's, it's a good way to kind of fix on some bad practices practices that lead to data leakage, um, practice or devalue for our perspective, some of the, you know, we offered as as publishers and I think that this is a key thing is that we're not just looking to as we look at the post gender world, not just kind of recreating the prior world because the prior world was flawed or I guess you could say the current world since it hasn't changed yet. But the current world is flawed. Let's not just not, you know, let's not just replicate that. Let's make sure that, you know, third party cookie goes away. Other work around like fingerprinting and things like that. You know, also go away so philosophically, that's where our heads at. And so as we look at how we are preparing, you know, you look at what are the core building blocks of preparing for this world. Obviously one of the key ones is privacy compliance. Like how do we treat our users with consent? Yeah, obviously. Are we um aligned with the regulatory environments? Yeah. In some ways we're not looking just a Jan 2022, but Jan 23 where there's gonna be the majority of our audiences we covered by regulation. And so I think from regulation up to data gathering to data activation, all built around an internal identifier that we've developed that allows us to have a consistent look at our users whether they're logged in or obviously anonymous. So it's really looking across all those components across all our sites and in all in a privacy compliant way. So a lot of work to be done, a lot of work in progress. But we're >>excited about what's going on. I like how you framed at Old world or next gen kind of the current situation kind of flawed. And as you think about programmatic, the concept is mind blowing and what needs to be done. So we'll come back to that because I think that original content view is certainly relevant, a huge investment and you've got great content and audience consuming it from a major media standpoint. Get your perspective on the impact because you've got clients who want to get their their message out in front of the audience at the right time, at the right place and the right context. Right, So your privacy, you got consent, all these things kind of boiling up. How do you help clients prepare? Because now they can go direct to the consumer. Everyone, everyone has a megaphone, now, everyone's, everyone's here, everyone's connected. So how are you impacted by this new notion? >>You know, if if the cookie list future was a tic tac, dance will be dancing right now, and at least into the next year, um this has been top of mind for us and our clients for quite some time, but I think as each day passes, the picture becomes clearer and more in focus. Uh the end of the third party cookie does not mean the end of programmatic. Um so clients work with us in transforming their investments into real business outcomes based on our expertise and based on our tech. So we continue to be in a great position to lead to educate, to partner and to grow with them. Um, along this uh cookie list future, the impact will be all encompassing in changing the ways we do things now and also accelerating the things that we've already been building on. So we take it from the top planning will have a huge impact because it's gonna start becoming more strategic around real business outcomes. Uh where Omni channel, So clients want to drive outcomes, drew multiple touch points of a consumer's journey, whether it has programmatic, whether it has uh cookie free environment, like connected tv, digital home audio, gaming and so forth. So we're going to see more of these strategic holistic plans. Creative will have a lot of impact. It will start becoming more important with creative testing. Creative insights. You know, creative in itself is cookie list. So there will be more focused on how to drive uh brand dialogue to connect to consumers with less targeting. With less cookies, with the cohesiveness of holistic planning. Creative can align through multiple channels and lastly, the role of a. I will become increasingly important. You know, we've always looked to build our tech our products to complement new and existing technology as well as the client's own data and text back to deliver these outcomes for them. And ai in its core it's just taking input data uh and having an output of your desired outcome. So input data could be dSP data beyond cookies such as browser such as location, such as contextual or publisher taking clients first party data, first party crm data like store visitation, sales, site activity. Um and using that to optimize in real time regardless of what vendor or what channel we're on. Um So as we're learning more about this cookie list dance, we're helping our clients on the steps of it and also introducing our own moves. >>That's awesome. Data is going to be a key value proposition, connecting in with content real time. Great stuff. Somewhere with your background in journalism and you're the tech VP of product at quan cast. You have the keys to the kingdom over there. It's interesting Journalism is about truth and good content original content. But now you have a data challenge problem opportunity on both sides, brands and publishers coming together. It's a data problem in a way it's a it's a tech stack, not so much just getting the right as to show up at the right place the right time. It's really bigger than that now. What's your take on this? >>Um you know, >>so first >>I think that consumers already sort of like except that there is a reasonable value exchange for their data in order to access free content. Right? And that's that's a critical piece for us to all kind of like understand over the past. Hi guys, probably two years since even even before the G. D. P. R. We've been doing a ton of discovery with customers, both publishers and marketers. Um and so you know, we've kind of known this, this cookie going away thing has been coming. Um And you know, Google's announcement just kind of confirmed it and it's been, it's been really, really interesting since Google's announcement, how the conversations have changed with with our customers and other folks that we talked to. And I've almost gone from being like a product manager to a therapist because there's such an emotional response. Um you know, from the marketing perspective, there's real fear there. There's like, oh my God, how you know, it's not just about, you know, delivering ads, it's about how do I control frequency? How do I, how do I measure, you know, success? Because the technology has has grown so much over the years to really give marketers the ability to deliver personalized advertising, good content, right. The consumers um and be able to monitor it and control it so that it's not too too intrusive on the publisher perspective side, we see slightly different response. It's more of a yes, right. You know, we're taking back control and we're going to stop the data leakage, we're going to get the value back for our inventory. Um and that both things are a good thing, but if it's, if it's not managed, it's going to be like ships passing in the night, right? In terms of um of, you know, they're there, them coming together, right, and that's the critical pieces that they have to come together. They have to get closer, you got to cut out a lot of that loom escape in the middle so that they can talk to each other and understand what's the value exchange happening between marketers and publishers and how do we do that without cookies? >>It's a fascinating, I love love your insight there. I think it's so relevant and it's got broader implications because, you know, if you look at how data's impact, some of these big structural changes and re factoring of industries, look at cyber security, you know, no one wants to share their data, but now if they share they get more insight, more machine learning, benefit more ai benefit. So now we have the sharing notion, but that goes against counter the big guys that want to wall garden, they want to hoard all the data and and control that to provide their own personalization. So you have this confluence of, hey, I want to hoard the data and then now I want to share the data. So so christmas summer you're in the, in the wheelhouse, you got original content and there's other providers out there. So is there the sharing model coming with privacy and these kinds of services? Is the open, come back again? How do you guys see this uh confluence of open versus walled gardens, because you need the data to make machine learning good. >>So I'll start uh start off, I mean, listen, I think you have to give credit to the walled gardens have created, I think as we look as publishers, what are we offering to our clients, what are we offering to the buy side? We need to be compelling. We shouldn't just be uh yeah, actually as journalists, I think that there is a case of the importance of funding journalism. Um but ultimately we need to make sure we're meeting the KPI is and the business needs of the buy side. And I think around that it is the sort of three core pillars that its ease of access, its scope of of activation and targeting and finally measurable results. So as I think is us as an individual publishers, so we have, we have multiple publications. So we do have scale. But then in partnership with other publishers perhaps to organizations like pre bid, you know, I think we can, you know, we're trying to address that and I think we can offer something that's compelling um, and transparent in terms of what these results are. But obviously, you know, I want to make sure it's clear transparent terms of results, but obviously where there's privacy in terms of the data and I think the form, you know, I think we've all heard a lot like data clean rooms, a lot of them out there flogging those wears. I think there's something valuable but you know, I think it's the right who is sort of the right partner or partners um and ultimately who allows us to get as close as possible to the buy side. And so that we can share that data for targeting, share it for perhaps for measurement, but obviously all in a privacy compliant >>way summer, what's your take on this? Because you talk about the future of the open internet democratization, the network effect that we're seeing in Vire al Itty and across multiple on the on the channels. Is that pointed out what's happening? That's the distribution now. So um that's almost an open garden model. So it's like um yeah, >>yeah, it's it's um you know, back in the day, you know, um knight ridder who was who was the first group that I that I worked for, um you know, each of those individual properties, um we're not hugely valuable on their own from a digital perspective, but together as a unit, they became valuable, right, and got scale for advertisers. Now we're in a place where, you know, I kind of think that each of those big networks are going to have to come together and work together to compare in size to the, to the world gardens. Um, and yeah, this is something that we've talked about before and an open garden. Um, I think that's the, that's the definitely the right route to take. And I and I agree with chris it's, it's about publishers getting as close to the market. Is it possible working with the tech companies that enable them to do that and doing so in a very privacy centric >>way. So how do we bring the brands and agencies together to get ready for third party cookies? Because there is a therapist moment here of it's gonna be okay. The parachute will open. The future is not gonna be as as grim. Um, it's a real opportunity. But if managed properly, what's your take on this is just more first party data strategy and what's your assessment of this? >>So we collaborated right now with ball grants on how did this still very complex cookie list future. Um, you know what's going to happen in the future? 2, 6 steps that we can take right now and market should take. Um, The first step is to gather intel on what's working on your current campaign, analyzing the data sets across cookie free environment. So you can translate those tactics eventually when the cookies do go away. So we have to look at things like temperature or time analysis. We could look at log level data. We could look at site analytics data. We can look at brand measurement tools and how creative really impacts the campaign success. The second thing we can look at is geo targeting strategies. The geo target strategy has been uh underrated because the granularity and geo data could go down all the way to the local level, even beyond zip code. So for example the census black data and this is especially important for CPG brands. So we're working closely with the client teams to understand not only the online data but the offline data and how we can utilize that in the future. Uh We want to optimize investments around uh markets that are working so strong markets and then test and underperforming markets. The third thing we can look at is contextual. So contextual by itself is cookie free. Uh We could build on small scale usage to test and learn various keywords and content categories based sets. Working closely with partners to find ways to leverage their data to mimic audiences that you are trying to target right now with cookies. Um the 4th 1 is publisher data or publisher targeting. So working with your publishers that you have strong relationships with who can curate similar audiences using their own first party data and conducting RFs to understand the scale and reach against your audience and their future role maps. So work with your top publishers based on historical data to try to recreate your best strategies. The 15 and I think this is very important is first party data, you know, that's going to matter more than ever. In the calculus future brands will need to think about how to access and developed the first party data starting with the consumers seeing a value in exchange for the information. It's a gold mine and understanding of consumer, their intent, the journey um and you need a really great data science team to extract insights out of that data, which will be crucial. So partner with strategic onboarding vendors and vet their ability to accept first party data into a cleaner environment for targeting for modeling for insight. And lastly, the six thing that we can do is begin to inform prospect prospecting by dedicating test budget to start gaining learnings about cookie list 11 place that we can start and it is under invested right now is Safari and Firefox. They have been calculus for quite some time so you can start here and begin testing here. Uh work with your data scientist team to understand the right mix is to to target and start exploring other channels outside of um just programmatic cookies like CTV digital, out of home radio gaming and so forth. So those are the six steps that we're taking right now with our clients to uh prepare and plan for the cookie list future. >>So chris let's go back to you. What's the solution here? Is there one, is there multiple solutions? What's the future look like for a cookie was future? >>Uh I think the one certain answers, they're definitely not just one solution. Um as we all know right now there there seems to be endless solutions, a lot of ideas out there, proposals with the W three C uh work happening within other industry bodies uh you know private companies solutions being offered and you know, it's a little bit of it's enough to make everyone's head spin and to try to track it to understand and understand the impact. And as a publisher were obviously a lot of people are knocking on our door. Uh they're saying, hey our solution is one that is going to bring in lots of money, you know, the all the buy side is going to use it. This is the one like I ma call to spend um, and so expect here and so far is that none of these solutions are I think everyone is still testing and learning no one on the buy side from our, from our knowledge is really committed to one or a few. It's all about a testing stage. I think that, you know, putting aside all that noise, I think what matters the most to us as publisher is actually something summer mentioned before. It's about control. You know, if we're going to work with a again, outside of our sort of, you know, internal identifier work that we're doing is we're going to work with an outside party or outside approach doesn't give us control as a publisher to ensure that it is, we control the data from our users. There isn't that data leakage, it's probably compliant. What information gets shared out there. What is it, what's released within within the bid stream? Uh If it is something that's attached to a somewhat declared user registered user that if that then is not somehow amplified or leverage off on another site in a way that is leveraging bit stream data or fingerprinting and going against. I think that the spirit of what we're trying to do in a post third party cookie world so that those controls are critical and I think they have those controls, his publisher, we have collectively be disciplined in what solutions that we we test out and what we eventually adopt. But even when the adoption point arrives, uh definitely it will not be one. There will be multiple because it's just too many use cases to address >>great, great insight there from, from you guys, news corp summer. Let's get back to you. I want to get your thoughts. You've been in many waves of innovation ups and downs were on a new one. Now we talked about the open internet democratization. Journalism is under a lot of pressure now, but there's now a wave of quality people really leaning in towards fighting misinformation, understanding truth and community and date is at the heart of it. What do you see as the new future for journalists, reward journalism is our ways their path forward. >>So there's uh, there's what I hope is going to happen. Um, and then I'm just gonna ignore what could write. Um, you know, there's there's a trend in market right now, a number of fronts, right? So there are marketers who are leaning into wanting to spend their marketing dollars with quality journalists, focusing on bipac owned and operated, really leaning into into supporting those businesses that have been uh, those publishers that have been ignored for years. I really hope that this trend continues. Um We are leaning into into helping um, marketers curate that supply right? And really, uh, you know, speak with their dollars about the things that that they support. Um, and uh, and and value right in market. So I'm hoping that that trend continues and it's not just sort of like a marketing blip. Um, but we will do everything possible to kind of like encourage that behavior and and give people the information they need to find, you know, truly high quality journalism. >>That's awesome chris Summer. Thanks for coming on and sharing your insight on this panel on the cookie list future. Before we go, just quick summary each of you. If you don't mind just giving a quick sound bite or bumper sticker of what we can expect. If you had to throw a prediction For what's going to happen in the next 24 months Chris We'll start with you. >>Uh it's gonna be quite a ride. I think that's an understatement. Um I think that there, I wouldn't be surprised if if google delays the change to the chrome by a couple of months and and may give the industry some much needed time, but no one knows. I guess. I guess I'm not except for someone somewhere deep within chrome. So I think we all have to operate in a way that changes to happen, changes to happen quickly and it's gonna cover across all facets of the industry, all facets of from advertising, marketing. So just be >>prepared. >>Yeah, along the same lines, be prepared, nobody knows what's going to happen in the future. Uh You know, while dancing in this together. Uh I think um for us it's um planning and preparing and also building on what we've already been working on. Um So omni channel ai um creative and I think clients will uh lean more into those different channels, >>awesome. So we'll pick us home, last word. >>I think we're in the throwing spaghetti against the wall stage. Right, so this is a time of discovery of leaning in trying everything out, Learning and iterating as fast as we possibly >>can. Awesome. And I love the cat in the background over your shoulder. Can't stop staring at your wonderful cat. Thanks for coming on chris, Thanks for coming on. This awesome panel industry breakdown of the cookie conundrum. The recipe for success data ai open. Uh The future is here, it's coming, it's coming fast. I'm john fryer with the cube. Thanks for watching. Mhm. Yeah. Mhm. Mhm. Welcome back to the Quant Cast industry summit on the demise of third party cookies. The cookie conundrum, a recipe for success. We're here peter day. The cto of quad cast and crew T cop car, head of product marketing quad cast. Thanks for coming on talking about the changing advertising landscape. >>Thanks for having us. Thank you for having >>us. So we've been hearing this story out to the big players. Want to keep the data, make that centralized control, all the leverage and then you've got the other end. You got the open internet that still wants to be free and valuable for everyone. Uh what's what are you guys doing to solve this problem? Because cookies go away? What's going to happen there? How do people track things you guys are in this business first question? What is quan cast strategies to adapt to third party cookies going away? What's gonna be, what's gonna be the answer? >>Yeah. So uh very rightly said, john the mission, the Qantas mission is the champion of free and open internet. Uh And with that in mind, our approach to this world without third party cookies is really grounded in three fundamental things. Uh First as industry standards, we think it's really important to participate and to work with organizations who are defining the standards that will guide the future of advertising. So with that in mind, we've been participating >>with I. A. B. >>Tech lab, we've been part of their project Triarc. Uh same thing with pre bid, who's kind of trying to figure out the pipes of identity. Di di di di di pipes of uh of the future. Um And then also is W three C, which is the World Wide Web Consortium. Um And our engineers and our engineering team are participating in their weekly meetings trying to figure out what's happening with the browsers and keeping up with the progress they're on things such as google's block. Um The second uh sort of thing is interoperability, as you've mentioned, there are lots of different uh I. D. Solutions that are emerging. You have you I. D. Two point oh, you have live RAM, you have google's flock. Uh And there will be more, there are more and they will continue to be more. Uh We really think it is important to build a platform that can ingest all of these signals. And so that's what we've done. Uh The reason really is to meet our customers where they are at today. Our customers use multiple different data management platforms, the mps. Um and that's why we support multiple of those. Um This is not going to be much different than that. We have to meet our customers where we are, where they are at. And then finally, of course, which is at the very heart of who contrast is innovation. Uh As you can imagine being able to take all of these multiple signals in including the I. D. S. And the cohorts, but also others like contextual first party um consent is becoming more and more important. Um And then there are many other signals, like time, language geo location. So all of these signals can help us understand user behavior intent and interests um in absence of 3rd party cookies. However, uh there's there's something to note about this. They're very raw, their complex, they're messy all of these different signals. Um They are changing all the time, they're real time. Um And there's incomplete information isolation. Just one of these signals cannot help you build a true and complete picture. So what you really need is a technology like AI and machine learning to really bring all of these signals together, combine them statistically and get an understanding of user behavior intent and interests and then act on it, be it in terms of providing audience insights um or responding to bid requests and and so on and so forth. So those are sort of the three um fundamentals that our approach is grounded in which is industry standards, interoperability and and innovation. Uh and you know, you have peter here, who is who is the expert So you can dive much deeper into >>it. Is T. T. O. You've got to tell us how is this going to actually work? What are you guys doing from a technology standpoint to help with data driven advertising in a third party cookie list world? >>Well, we've been um This is not a shock, you know, I think anyone who's been close to his space has known that the 3rd Party Cookie has been um uh reducing inequality in terms of its pervasiveness and its longevity for many years now. And the kind of death knell is really google chrome making a, making the changes that they're gonna be making. So we've been investing in the space for many years. Um and we've had to make a number of hugely diverse investment. So one of them is in how as a marketer, how do I tell if my marketing still working in the world without >>computers? The >>majority of marketers completely reliant on third party cookies today to tell them if they're if they're marketing is working or not. And so we've had to invest heavily and statistical techniques which are closer to kind of economic trick models that markets are used to things like out of home advertising, It's going to establishing whether they're advertising is working or not in a digital environment actually, >>just as >>often, you know, as is often the case in these kind of times of massive disruption, there's always opportunity to make things better. And we really think that's true. And you know, digital measurement has often mistaken precision for accuracy. And there's a real opportunity to kind of see the wood for the trees if you like. And start to come with better methods of measuring the affections of advertising without third party cookies. And in fact to make countless other investments in areas like contextual modeling and and targeting that third party cookies and and uh, connecting directly to publishers rather than going through this kind of bloom escape that's gonna tied together third party cookies. So if I was to enumerate all the investments we've made, I think we'll be here till midnight but we have to make a number of vestments over a number of years and that level investments only increasing at the moment. >>Peter on that contextual. Can you just double click on that and tell us more? >>Yeah, I mean contextual is unfortunately these things, this is really poorly defined. It can mean everything from a publisher saying, hey, trust us, this dissipated about CVS to what's possible now and has only really been possible the last couple of years, which is to build >>statistical >>models of the entire internet based on the content that people are actually consumed. And this type of technology requires massive data processing capabilities. It's able to take advantage of the latest innovations in there is like natural language processing and really gives um computers are kind of much deeper and richer understanding of the internet, which ultimately makes it possible to kind of organize, organized the Internet in terms of the types of content of pages. So this type of technology has only been possible the last two years and we've been using contextual signals since our inception, it's always been massively predictive in terms of audience behaviours, in terms of where advertising is likely to work. And so we've been very fortunate to keep the investment going um and take advantage of many of these innovations that have happened in academia and in kind of uh in adjacent areas >>on the ai machine learning aspect, that seems to be a great differentiator in this day and age for getting the most out of the data. How is machine learning and ai factoring into your platform? >>I think it's, it's how we've always operated right from our interception when we started as a measurement company, the way that we were giving our customers at the time, we were just publishers, just the publisher side of our business insights into who their audience was, were, was using machine learning techniques. And that's never really changed. The foundation of our platform has always been, has always been machine learning from from before. It was cool. A lot of our kind of, a lot of our core teams have backgrounds in machine learning phds in statistics and machine learning and and that really drives our our decision making. I mean, data is only useful if you can make sense of it and if you can organize it and if you can take action on it and to do that at this kind of scout scale, it's absolutely necessary to use machine learning technology. >>So you mentioned contextual also, you know, in advertising, everyone knows in that world that you've got the contextual behavioural dynamics, the behavior that's kind of generally everyone's believing is happening. The consensus is undeniable is that people are wanting to expect an environment where there's trust, there's truth, but also they want to be locked in. They don't wanna get walled into a walled garden, nobody wants to be in the world, are they want to be free to pop around and visit sites is more horizontal scalability than ever before. Yet, the bigger players are becoming walled garden, vertical platforms. So with future of ai the experience is going to come from this data. So the behavior is out there. How do you get that contextual relevance and provide the horizontal scale that users expect? >>Yeah, I think it's I think it's a really good point and we're definitely this kind of tipping point. We think, in the broader industry, I think, you know, every published right, we're really blessed to work with the biggest publishers in the world, all the way through to my mom's vlog, right? So we get to hear the perspectives of publishers at every scale. I think they consistently tell us the same thing, which is they want to more directly connected consumers, they don't wanna be tied into these walled gardens, which dictate how they must present their content and in some cases what content they're allowed to >>present. >>Um and so our job as a company is to really provide level >>the playing field a little bit, >>provide them the same capabilities they're only used to in the walled gardens, but let's give them more choice in terms of how they structure their content, how they organize their content, how they organize their audiences, but make sure that they can fund that effectively by making their audiences in their environments discoverable by marketers measurable by marketers and connect them as directly as possible to make that kind of ad funded economic model as effective in the open Internet as it is in social. And so a lot of the investments we've made over recent years have been really to kind of realize that vision, which is, it should be as easy for a marketer to be able to understand people on the open internet as it is in social media. It should be as effective for them to reach people in the environment is really high quality content as it is on facebook. And so we invest a lot of a lot of our R and D dollars in making that true. We're now live with the Comcast platform, which does exactly that. And as third party cookies go away, it only um only kind of exaggerated or kind of further emphasizes the need for direct connections between brands and publishers. And so we just wanna build the technology that helps make that true and gives the kind of technology to these marketers and publishers to connect and to deliver great experiences without relying on these kind of walled >>gardens. Yeah, the Director Director, Consumer Director audience is a new trend. You're seeing it everywhere. How do you guys support this new kind of signaling from for for that's happening in this new world? How do you ingest the content and just this consent uh signaling? >>Uh we were really fortunate to have an amazing, amazing R and D. Team and, you know, we've had to do all sorts to make this, you need to realize our vision. This has meant things like, you know, we have crawlers which scan the entire internet at this point, extract the content of the pages and kind of make sense of it and organize it uh, and organize it for publishers so they can understand how their audiences overlap with potential competitors or collaborators. But more importantly, organize it for marketers. So you can understand what kind of high impact opportunities are there for them there. So, you know, we've had to we've had to build a lot of technology. We've had to build analytics engines, which can get answers back in seconds so that marketers and publishers can kind of interact with their own data and make sense of it and present it in a way that's compelling and help them drive their strategy as well as their execution. We've had to invest in areas like consent management because we believe that a free and open internet is absolutely reliant on trust and therefore we spend a lot of our time thinking about how do we make it easy for end users to understand who has access to their data and easy for end users to be able to opt out. And uh and as a result of that, we've now got the world's most widely adopted adopted consent management platform. So it's hard to tackle one of these problems without tackling all of them. Were fortunate enough to have had a large enough R and D budget over the last four or five years, make a number investments, everything from consent and identity through context, your signals through the measurement technologies, which really bring advertisers >>and Publishers places together great insight. Last word for you is what's the what's the customer view here as you bring these new capabilities of the platform, uh what's what are you guys seeing as the highlight uh from a platform perspective? >>So the initial response that we've seen from our customers has been very encouraging, both on the publisher side as well as the marketer side. Um I think, you know, one of the things we hear quite a lot is uh you guys are at least putting forth a solution, an actual solution for us to test Peter mentioned measurement, that really is where we started because you cannot optimize what you cannot measure. Um so that that is where his team has started and we have some measurement very, very uh initial capabilities still in alpha, but they are available in the platform for marketers to test out today. Um so the initial response has been very encouraging. People want to engage with us um of course our, you know, our fundamental value proposition, which is that the Qantas platform was never built to be reliant on on third party data. These stale segments like we operate, we've always operated on real time live data. Um The second thing is, is our premium publisher relationships. We have had the privilege of working like Peter said with some of the um biggest publishers, but we also have a very wide footprint. We have first party tags across um over 100 million plus web and mobile destinations. Um and you know, as you must have heard like that sort of first party footprint is going to come in really handy in a world without third party cookies, we are encouraging all of our customers, publishers and marketers to grow their first party data. Um and so that that's something that's a strong point that customers love about us and and lean into it quite a bit. Um So yeah, the initial response has been great. Of course it doesn't hurt that we've made all these are in the investments. We can talk about consent. Um, and you know, I often say that consent, it sounds simple, but it isn't, there's a lot of technology involved, but there's lots of uh legal work involved as it as well. We have a very strong legal team who has expertise built in. So yeah, very good response. Initially >>democratization. Everyone's a publisher. Everyone's a media company. They have to think about being a platform. You guys provide that. So I congratulate Peter. Thanks for dropping the gems there. Shruti, thanks for sharing the product highlights. Thanks for, for your time. Thank you. Okay, this is the quan cast industry summit on the demise of third party cookies. And what's next? The cookie conundrum. The recipe for success with Kwan Cast. I'm john free with the cube. Thanks for watching. Mm

(upbeat electronic music) >> Welcome back to the Quantcast Industry Summit on the demise of third-party cookies. The Cookie Conundrum, A Recipe for Success. I'm John Furrier, host of theCUBE. The changing landscape of advertising is here, and Shiv Gupta, founder of U of Digital is joining us. Shiv, thanks for coming on this segment. I really appreciate it. I know you're busy. You've got two young kids, as well as providing education to the digital industry. You got some kids to take care of and train them too. So, welcome to the cube conversation here as part of the program. >> Yeah, thanks for having me. Excited to be here. >> So, the house of the changing landscape of advertising really centers around the open to walled garden mindset of the web and the big power players. We know the big three, four tech players dominate the marketplace. So, clearly in a major inflection point. And you know, we've seen this movie before. Web, now mobile revolution. Which was basically a re-platforming of capabilities, but now we're in an era of refactoring the industry, not replatforming. A complete changing over of the value proposition. So, a lot at stake here as this open web, open internet-- global internet, evolves. What are your, what's your take on this? There's industry proposals out there that are talking to this specific cookie issue? What does it mean and what proposals are out there? >> Yeah, so, you know, I really view the identity proposals in kind of two kinds of groups. Two separate groups. So, on one side you have what the walled gardens are doing. And really that's being led by Google, right? So, Google introduced something called the Privacy Sandbox when they announced that they would be deprecating third-party cookies. And as part of the Privacy Sandbox, they've had a number of proposals. Unfortunately, or you know, however you want to say, they're all bird-themed, for some reason I don't know why. But the one, the bird-themed proposal that they've chosen to move forward with is called FLOC, which stands for Federated Learning of Cohorts. And, essentially what it all boils down to is Google is moving forward with cohort level learning and understanding of users in the future after third-party cookies. Unlike what we've been accustomed to in this space, which is a user level understanding of people and what they're doing online for targeting and tracking purposes. And so, that's on one side of the equation. It's what Google is doing with FLOC and Privacy Sandbox. Now, on the other side is, you know, things like unified ID 2.0 or the work that ID5 is doing around building new identity frameworks for the entire space that actually can still get down to the user level. Right? And so again, Unified ID 2.0 comes to mind because it's the one that's probably gotten the most adoption in the space. It's an open source framework. So the idea is that it's free and pretty much publicly available to anybody that wants to use it. And Unified ID 2.0 again is user level. So, it's basically taking data that's authenticated data from users across various websites that are logging in and taking those authenticated users to create some kind of identity map. And so, if you think about those two work streams, right? You've got the walled gardens and or, you know, Google with FLOC on one side. And then you've got Unified ID 2.0 and other ID frameworks for the open internet on the other side. You've got these two very different type of approaches to identity in the future. Again, on the Google side it's cohort level, it's going to be built into Chrome. The idea is that you can pretty much do a lot of the things that we do with advertising today but now you're just doing them at a group level so that you're protecting privacy. Whereas, on the other side with the open internet you're still getting down to the user level and that's pretty powerful but the the issue there is scale, right? We know that a lot of people are not logged in on lots of websites. I think the stat that I saw was under 5% of all website traffic is authenticated. So, really if you simplify things and you boil it all down you have kind of these two very differing approaches. >> So we have a publishing business. We'd love to have people authenticate and get that closed loop journalism thing going on. But, if businesses wannna get this level too, they can have concerns. So, I guess my question is, what's the trade-off? Because you have power in Google and the huge data set that they command. They command a lot of leverage with that. And again, centralized. And you've got open. But it seems to me that the world is moving more towards decentralization, not centralization. Do you agree with that? And does that have any impact to this? Because, you want to harness the data, so it rewards people with the most data. In this case, the powerful. But the world's going decentralized, where there needs to be a new way for data to be accessed and leveraged by anyone. >> Yeah. John, it's a great point. And I think we're at kind of a crossroads, right? To answer that question. You know, I think what we're hearing a lot right now in the space from publishers, like yourself, is that there's an interesting opportunity right now for them, right? To actually have some more control and say about the future of their own business. If you think about the last, let's say 10, 15, 20 years in advertising in digital, right? Programmatic has really become kind of the primary mechanism for revenue for a lot of these publishers. Right? And so programmatic is a super important part of their business. But, with everything that's happening here with identity now, a lot of these publishers are kind of taking a look in the mirror and thinking about, "Okay, we have an interesting opportunity here to make a decision." And, the decision, the trade off to your question is, Do we continue? Right? Do we put up the login wall? The registration wall, right? Collect that data. And then what do we do with that data? Right? So it's kind of a two-fold process here. Two-step process that they have to make a decision on. First of all, do we hamper the user experience by putting up a registration wall? Will we lose consumers if we do that? Do we create some friction in the process that's not necessary. And if we do, right? We're taking a hit already potentially, to what end? Right? And, I think that's the really interesting question, is to what end? But, what we're starting to see is publishers are saying you know what? Programmatic revenue is super important to us. And so, you know, path one might be: Hey, let's give them this data. Right? Let's give them the authenticated information, the data that we collect. Because if we do, we can continue on with the path that our business has been on. Right? Which is generating this awesome kind of programmatic revenue. Now, alternatively we're starting to see some publishers say hold up. If we say no, if we say: "Hey, we're going to authenticate but we're not going to share the data." Right? Some of the publishers actually view programmatic as almost like the programmatic industrial complex, right? That's almost taken a piece of their business in the last 10, 15, 20 years. Whereas, back in the day, they were selling directly and making all the revenue for themselves, right? And so, some of these publishers are starting to say: You know what? We're not going to play nice with FLOC and Unified ID. And we're going to kind of take some of this back. And what that means in the short term for them, is maybe sacrificing programmatic revenue. But their bet is long-term, maybe some of that money will come back to them direct. Now, that'll probably only be the premium pubs, right? The ones that really feel like they have that leverage and that runway to do something like that. And even so, you know, I'm of the opinion that if certain publishers kind of peel away and do that, that's probably not great for the bigger picture. Even though it might be good for their business. But, you know, let's see what happens. To each business their own >> Yeah. I think the trade-off of monetization and user experience has always been there. Now, more than ever, people want truth. They want trust. And I think the trust factor is huge. And if you're a publisher, you wannna have your audience be instrumental. And I think the big players have sucked out of the audience from the publishers for years. And that's well-documented. People talk about that all the time. I guess the question, it really comes down to is, what alternatives are out there for cookies and which ones do you think will be more successful? Because, I think the consensus is, at least from my reporting and my view, is that the world agrees. Let's make it open. Which one's going to be better? >> Yeah. That's a great question, John. So as I mentioned, right? We have two kinds of work streams here. We've got the walled garden work stream being led by Google and their work around FLOC. And then we've got the open internet, right? Let's say Unified ID 2.0 kind of represents that. I personally don't believe that there is a right answer or an end game here. I don't think that one of them wins over the other, frankly. I think that, you know, first of all, you have those two frameworks. Neither of them are perfect. They're both flawed in their own ways. There are pros and cons to both of them. And so what we're starting to see now, is you have other companies kind of coming in and building on top of both of them as kind of a hybrid solution, right? So they're saying, hey we use, you know, an open ID framework in this way to get down to the user level and use that authenticated data. And that's important, but we don't have all the scale. So now we go to a Google and we go to FLOC to kind of fill the scale. Oh and hey, by the way, we have some of our own special sauce. Right? We have some of our own data. We have some of our own partnerships. We're going to bring that in and layer it on top, right? And so, really where I think things are headed is the right answer, frankly, is not one or the other. It's a little mishmash of both with a little extra, you know, something on top. I think that's what we're starting to see out of a lot of companies in the space. And I think that's frankly, where we're headed. >> What do you think the industry will evolve to, in your opinion? Because, I think this is going to be- You can't ignore the big guys on this Obviously the programmatic you mentioned, also the data's there. But, what do you think the market will evolve to with this conundrum? >> So, I think John, where we're headed, you know, I think right now we're having this existential crisis, right? About identity in this industry. Because our world is being turned upside down. All the mechanisms that we've used for years and years are being thrown out the window and we're being told, "Hey, we're going to have new mechanisms." Right? So cookies are going away. Device IDs are going away. And now we've got to come up with new things. And so, the world is being turned upside down and everything that you read about in the trades and you know, we're here talking about it, right? Everyone's always talking about identity, right? Now, where do I think this is going? If I was to look into my crystal ball, you know, this is how I would kind of play this out. If you think about identity today, right? Forget about all the changes. Just think about it now and maybe a few years before today. Identity, for marketers, in my opinion, has been a little bit of a checkbox activity, right? It's been, Hey, Okay. You know, ad tech company or media company. Do you have an identity solution? Okay. Tell me a little bit more about it. Okay. Sounds good. That sounds good. Now, can we move on and talk about my business and how are you going to drive meaningful outcomes or whatever for my business. And I believe the reason that is, is because identity is a little abstract, right? It's not something that you can actually get meaningful validation against. It's just something that, you know? Yes, you have it. Okay, great. Let's move on, type of thing, right? And so, that's kind of where we've been. Now, all of a sudden, the cookies are going away. The device IDs are going away. And so the world is turning upside down. We're in this crisis of: how are we going to keep doing what we were doing for the last 10 years in the future? So, everyone's talking about it and we're tryna re-engineer the mechanisms. Now, if I was to look into the crystal ball, right? Two, three years from now, where I think we're headed is, not much is going to change. And what I mean by that, John is, I think that marketers will still go to companies and say, "Do you have an ID solution? Okay, tell me more about it. Okay. Let me understand a little bit better. Okay. You do it this way. Sounds good." Now, the ways in which companies are going to do it will be different. Right now it's FLOC and Unified ID and this and that, right? The ways, the mechanisms will be a little bit different. But, the end state. Right? The actual way in which we operate as an industry and the view of the landscape in my opinion, will be very simple or very similar, right? Because marketers will still view it as a, tell me you have an ID solution, make me feel good about it, help me check the box and let's move on and talk about my business and how you're going to solve for my needs. So, I think that's where we're going. That is not by any means to discount this existential moment that we're in. This is a really important moment, where we do have to talk about and figure out what we're going to do in the future. My viewpoint is that the future will actually not look all that different than the present. >> And then I'll say the user base is the audience, their data behind it helps create new experiences, machine learning and AI are going to create those. And if you have the data, you're either sharing it or using it. That's what we're finding. Shiv Gupta, great insights. Dropping some nice gems here. Founder of U of Digital and also the adjunct professor of programmatic advertising at Leavey School of business in Santa Clara University. Professor, thank you for coming and dropping the gems here and insight. Thank you. >> Thanks a lot for having me, John. Really appreciate it. >> Thanks for watching The Cookie Conundrum This is theCUBE host, John Furrier, me. Thanks for watching. (uplifting electronic music)

>>mhm Yes. Welcome back to the cubes coverage of red hat summit 2021 virtual john for your host of the cube paul. Comey who's here is the president and Ceo of red hat cube alumni paul always great to have you on the leader of red hat now President and Ceo for a year I think about a year now we're looking at under your belt now part of IBM Great to see you. >>You too nice to see you again john. >>So we've talked many times on the Cuban now. It's kind of playing out in real time. The software world with open source has gone mainstream. The conversation was moved to the cloud. Okay. People move to the cloud. Cloud native emerges devil has been around for a while. But now the conversation is cloud for the enterprise that uh, the enterprises, it's a tough world. You gotta, it's complicated is a lot of legacies, a lot of value and you want the new stuff. This is what the conversation is now. It's shifted to I got cloud, it's hybrid. What's your reaction to that? >>Well, you know, it really is, as you say, it's complicated but it's evolving and really, really fast. I mean, you know, I think you remember we've been here a lot. You first remember first software is eating the world and open source software is eating the world and in every every company is becoming a software company. All true. But that evolution continues today with the proliferation of hybrid cloud environments that it encompasses everything from data centers to public cloud services to And even now we'll talk about two for far flung edge deployments. That's all now part of the cloud. I mean, this is all what makes up hybrid. I like to always say that Hybrid really is the new data centers but now see IOS and I thi leaders, they need to reconsider what their roles, what their role here is and the way we look at it as every C I O now needs to be a cloud operator because because Hybrid is what their environment is now today, that used to be all in their data center. So, so but one of the things that really makes a choice even more important and its leaders, they need to address address specific needs, um not only to the organization, but even as they change and evolve in this because it really is a dynamic environment, I mean think about it and just mentioned edge and how how important that is to see IOS, we weren't even talking about that two years ago, so, so it's not a single answer here, right? Um and and you know, and there as there wasn't a single answer when it was all in one building or in one data center, but now it's even it's even more complex. So, so we need to enable really a new wave of cloud operators here with technologies that can be deployed as cloud services as well as on premises. We'll talk more about this too, but and we'll talk about this at the summit. We talked about the summit. Cloud services become really important, especially managed services, for example, because, um because we're so complex, Hybrid brings so much power, but it is complex. You know, see I need help with this, they need help managing this now. And so that's really where a lot of our focus is today. >>It's interesting you say there's no single answer. I would agree with you because it's now you can actually do a lot more customization with cloud and Hybrid. I think there's a general sentiment and directionally correct answer uh in the industry is that hybrid is operating model right? And I think you guys are have a whole division of SRS google talks about this all the time and their cloud site reliability engineers. And I think you're seeing that in educational institutions which we'll talk about. But I think this idea of cloud scale as the new I. T. And you mentioned hybrids, the new data center. You know, I don't I don't want to offend my I. T. Friends out there but they're kind of all realizing it to that if they don't understand how to operate cloud scale they'll be irrelevant and they're and they understand that their jobs are not just provisioning storage, networking and servers. Those are now involved in a hybrid architecture. And by the way, there is no one recipe, it's dependent. Each enterprise can have its own set of architecture based on their workloads again. So I buy that no single answer, but there is hybrid and I think it's pretty well understood. I mean, do you agree with that? >>I absolutely agree with that. But let's take a look at this, unpack it a little bit and take a look at the building blocks a bit. Right. Um, you know, we talked about open sources, what's driving all of this now and and everything we're talking about here is built in and around Lennox and it was only possible because Lennox was so open, so available and became so powerful, that's now been the platform that all this new innovation is built around. I mean, I oftentimes saying it's true the cloud just wouldn't be here had Lennox not only made its way in the open source development environment, but made its way into the enterprise to enable it to companies like us that make it enterprise ready, secure etcetera. So I think that's really an important thing to understand here. So when you talk about skills that the Ceos need certainly SRE skills, operation skills etcetera, but they also need Lennox skills and even open source skills. So so I think I think that's important, everything that's coming down the road and in in this space in um in his open source based and built in and around Lennox things like ai quantum computing, autonomous vehicles um IOT in and out to the edge all built on a foundation of Lennox and open source. So we see it in the enterprise everywhere now. I mean a survey where you know we did a survey out there and looking at the survey of C I O s out there, open is predominant out there, Lennox is predominant out there in hybrid is predominant and growing in a pretty big clip every year. >>You know, paul, I want to get your reaction to something because this may be kind of a dot connecting moment for me because I want to get your thoughts on this because it's a it's a pattern I'm seeing emerging now multiple times and usually I thought this was kind of a one off, but I'm starting to see it. So I'm going to get your thoughts on this. You guys have been super successful with open source in the enterprise, Super successful over decades, building a community and an ecosystem now with open source with with cloud Native, specifically we're seeing end users participating more in the, in the contribution starts out with the hyper scale ear's but now you're seeing kind of, I would call general purpose mainstream enterprises contributing projects, not necessarily their expertise, but they've been participating in taking the goodness of open source and bringing that into the into the enterprise. And I'll see you relying on you guys as well. But now I'm starting to see the pattern where people are relying on you to bring your community to them and they merge their communities with you guys and being kind of a steward there, is that a pattern? Do you see that evolving? Because we've heard that on multiple interviews on the cube where we've heard end users say we love the red hat ecosystem and and that seems to be more and more about they want to be building their ecosystem. So you did it for yourselves, you did it for the industry. Now, enterprises want this service is this is this is a pattern. And what's your reaction to that? >>It actually is a pattern because it's actually one of the reasons why innovation is moving so quickly right now. As I just said, you know, you know, this whole area here in infrastructure and cloud and development environments, Hybrid included. It's all built in and around, it's all built in and around Lennox. And in the past, what's happening and driven by open source development in the past? What happened? Look at the old fashioned way, right, where a company like us would be in a company, software company, not like us, but any old software company would be, you know, in their stovepipe, talking to their customers, getting their requirements and then bringing those requirements back from the customer base and then trying to work that into their products over time, get that back out to the customer to test it and try it, see it as it works. That's probably a five year, there's probably a five year journey, uh, for big, big requirements for big change requirements you look at now with, with actually end users now participating in upstream development, they're building their requirements into that upstream, which is our development environment. And actually that's what feeds our products. And so we've cut out the middleman, if you will completely in there now when we're building those requirements into our future future, R and D work in the upstream and then we bring that down into a product back into their enterprise for them to use in production. So it cuts out years of time for that innovation to get from concept to building to product, rising to production. And, and I think, you know, john, that's one of the big reasons why that customer base participating is one of the big reason why we're seeing innovation move like we've never seen it before in the enterprise, which in the old days that was a stodgy place where they didn't want to move very quickly. >>Yeah. And the values there, I mean I think it's clear what the pandemic we get to this towards the the last last talking track here. But with the pandemic I think it's pretty clear what the value is and the speed to capture opportunities and growth. I think enterprises are realizing that I think the power of the ecosystem is a modern error kind of phenomenon that is now kind of showing its its value and clearly in the market. And I think people who harness communities and ecosystems not try to fork them but connect them and and intersect them and kind of played well together. So again this is an open source concept kind of re imagined so we'll keep an eye on that. So, um, I want to get to your comment in the kino you mentioned at the top here every C I. O. It has to be a cloud operator. You know, that reminds me of all the start ups and all the positioning statements. Every company needs to be a software company. Every company needs to be a media company. Every company needs to be a cloud operator. So I love that. What does it mean? Because I could say, hey paul, I have a cloud, I'm working on amazon Or is that it? Or wait a minute as yours got, I got 365 over here and I'm using big query over here. I might use oracle over here. I mean all these multi cloud conversations. So it's confusing. >>Yeah. Tell me what, you know, if you look at, if you look at it, we were really one of the first ones to really build around this hybrid, this hybrid concept. And the reason why we were one of the first ones is because what amazon hit the world 12 or 13 years ago or something like that, They were the first major cloud and at the time that the narrative was that, you know, every application was going to move to the cloud tomorrow. Right well, because as I said earlier, everything is built in and in and around open source. And legs were very involved with our customers as they tried to move those first applications to the cloud. So certainly is a lot of value and moving to the cloud. But our customers quickly realized with us helping them, quickly realized that you know what, this is great. But not every application suited for the cloud, um for any cloud, but also I may want to run multiple clouds because another cloud provider over here might have a better service than this particular service over here, vice versa. And so we were in the middle of that. So one of the decisions we made seven or eight years ago, everything we did in that last seven or eight years around the portfolio, whether it was building products, m and A, requiring new companies etcetera, was built around that hybrid portfolio. What that means is a common platform that sits both on premise and bare metal machines. Virtual machines, private clouds on premise multiple clouds across out in the enterprise, that common platform so that developers, operators and the security people have that common platform to build with because just like in Lenox, even though they are all derived from open source upstream, they're all different, they all make different choices and how they're going to configure themselves. So, so that's important. So now we're out there with these multiple clouds. One of our surveys we see our Ceo is telling us now that You're using on the average I think six Clouds today and they expect that to go 8-10 over the next 3-5 years. So how are they going to manage that? How are they going to secure that? How are their operations people going to operate with that? That's all the things that we've been working on over the last number of years. So from that common platform, which is sort of the basis which is open shift to underneath it, which is the Linux operating system, which is well that spans all those footprints that I talked about. And then also you look at one of the latest trends is as well as manage services because what customers are now telling us is okay I got this environment that this hybrid is now my data center. It means I have to worry about these apps all in different footprints. Um I want to the platform to act like a cloud in some cases I don't want to I don't want to even manage it. I want you to manage it for me because for many reasons I want great up time. I might not have the right skill sets in my organization and so I want you to manage it. And so that's where we develop managed services and that's where we have set a large group today large SRE group that's providing those managed services no matter where our platform runs for our customers. Also, what I talked about in my keynote today is that to support that thought process is that we're doing a lot of research in this and so, you know, in a typical computer science research world, you know, of the past, you might really be into the into the real computer science of Research. We with the consortium around mass Open cloud with Boston University, MIT, Harvard Northeastern with this consortium. We're running mass Open cloud on all Red Hat with the collaboration of these universities and we're really focusing on the sorry aspect of it. What do we need to manage it? What do we need around automation to manage it? What do we need around ai to manage it? What do we need for tools to manage it? And and that's really goes down to what I fully briefly said in the beginning, is that every C I O N I T uh executive now has to be their own cloud operator because they are effectively stitching all these disparate clouds together. So that's where a big part of our focus takes us all the way from, You know, upstream development to product to the research we're doing for the next 3-5 plus years. >>You know, I gotta say the hybrid cloud is a new data center which is implying I T in the cloud operators with C X O S and C IOS is interesting because it's validated by Mckinsey's recent report that came out that said there's a trillion dollars of untapped value in one retrofitting existing infrastructure and operations and to net new operate use cases that the cloud enables. So there's clearly not two categories of value proposition that businesses are facing. One is, you know, kind of take care of the existing and then also bring in the new that cloud enables. So, you know, I think that's really key and that will drive the business leaders to foresight, if you will to be agile and adaptive to that. So so totally agree on that. I love this open cloud initiative, you mentioned the mass open cloud which I know is kind of like this beanpot for techies, um people who know what that means, uh it's in the boston area these institutions um this is gonna be a training and an opportunity to train the next generation and if you take it to the next level cybersecurity is also in this kind of net new novelty, interdisciplinary components. So you got engineering which is like devops engineering and then Systems Engineering and Computer Science intersecting together with kind of this data discipline. So it hits cybersecurity which is a board level conversation, it hits the new business model opportunities which is a driver, this is new, this is there's no pre existing curriculum. What how do you explain that to heads of the departments and the deans of these institutions saying, you know, it's an engineering thing. No, it's computer science thing. No, it's a it's a business school thing with data science. What's your what's your conversation with folks in the industry when you say this is a different thing? >>Uh you know, the university, you know, the university is getting, it was actually one of the one of the first things this is you know what you'll see. You know, I talked to uh dr bob Brown from President bu earlier in an interview and and this is what we imagined with them early on and even they brought those disciplines together now in in in what they call a harry institute, where to bring data, computer science engineering as you say. And now even operations, it's almost like, you know, systems engineering on steroids, it's a really big spanning system. And so so the universities are starting understand that's why these universities in the consortium, that's why we're working here. But also, you know, the industry's kind of learning it the hard way because now that they get some of their developers starting to move some of their application developments out into one, maybe two clouds and having the now they have to figure out how they're going to do all those things that we talked about, develop, secure operated. So they're they're learning the hard way that this is the new discipline because that's reality. I also think that, you know, as I said, like anything in tech, we always say this is going to happen tomorrow. I also think, like I said, when when cloud first came came out, everybody saying, I'm moving every app to the cloud tomorrow. We even had customers that bought into that said we're moving going full board but they realized once they get into it it wasn't practical. Don't take me wrong. Cloud brings a ton of value here but from a practical perspective it's going to be some apps and across many clouds and and so now they're having to deal with the I. T. Execs and the C. I. Was having to deal with it. So they're learning really fast because of the reality that they have to deal with. Now having said all that to it also brings up why managed services you're seeing so popular right now because as that's moving so fast they just don't have the skills necessary in many cases to really operate and run in this in this type of environment. It brings so much power but the skills aren't necessarily there in the industry. So that now you see the connection between the industry where we sit and even the university now looking at this whole big problem as as you put said, john, actually a new discipline, >>I think, I think, and I think one final leg of a three legged stool is at the business schools because when you think about systems programming, you mentioned that and you know, I love to go back in history and look at the history of operating systems. And you know, paul, we've talked us in the past and you guys know a lot about operating systems from a technology standpoint, it's not just about a productivity suite for a user or a department with the system, it's a company that needs to be programmed. So when people want to globally operate their business, that software defined this isn't now and this is now happening, right? So this the new leaders in these companies that want to run these global companies that scale operate them, just like operating the business not necessary. Operating a tech or shiny new toy, have to build the operating system for the business. To me, I think that's where I see IBM looking at cloud differently and saying, hey, this is an operating system under the covers for the business. The applications are multi fold from, you know, an application for productivity to an edge device, industrial or consumer user work at home. I mean it's a plethora of applications. What's your reaction to that? And you you see the same thing? >>I mean frankly, I think this is an area that a lot of the infrastructure players missed in the past. And I think I think this is what IBM saw with with bringing us in as well. It's all about the application. You know, I said earlier that, you know, we said every every company was a software company is true. And so that means the companies are running their businesses on these applications. So it's all about the app and I think a lot of infrastructure companies miss that. And and so with Hybrid now you have that ability to run the app wherever makes the most sense for for a whole host of reasons. And so now, but now comes the complexity of all of that. I think, I think IBM with bringing us in saw that that Hybrid was maybe as big, if not a bigger opportunity than cloud itself because of of the complexity it's going to bring, the power is going to bring. But also the complexity is gonna bring. I see that's why, you see Arvind, I sort of doubling down the entire IBM company on on hybrid services that are that are going to be really important here, that they provide these applications on top that are going to be really important, but that have to be architected in such a way that they can run in a hybrid environment. And finally there's all the infrastructure and tools and development pieces that we bring to the table. So, So yeah, I think I think are really, really understood that as they made the decision to bring redheaded, >>I talked to a center all the time and they also have this kind of concept of re factoring and reprogramming your business. Uh, it's not, it's a holistic view. This is kind of what's happening. So my final question for you is as as that becomes software enabled and programmed if you will with applications the business with many different subsystems in there. Um a lot of companies now looking at the light at the end of the tunnel with the pandemic and they're seeing vaccines coming out. Some say vaccines will be pretty much everywhere, everyone over 12 by the fall. So we're back to real life. There's gonna be a pullback of some projects on doubling down on others. As you as you mentioned, what are we doing? We're starting to see hybrid as companies come out of the pandemic, they're all jockeying to make sure that they have either done their work to re factor or reposition, reprogrammed their business and be set up for net new opportunities. >>What >>do you see as a growth model or growth opportunities for companies? You want to come out with a growth strategy out of the gate of the pandemic. What's your thoughts? >>Well, I mean, I think you have to plan for companies have to plan for your workforce to be anywhere, but in order to be anywhere in and to be productive, you need you need services like we're on right now for example, but you need the infrastructure to be able to do that. You need you need a way for your customers if you buy the fact that every company is a software company, you're running a business through their applications either way for your customers to be able to interact with you anywhere from where they are anywhere in a real time way. And so I think that's why from our perspective, things like that we're pushing a lot on the edge. Now, that's why you're seeing the hybrid cloud moved all the way out into the edge and you can see it in every vertical, you know, in the telco space. The edge means you gotta do, you have data and compute that needs to be done on the set on the cell tower in the manufacturing world. You have the state and compute that needs to be done on the factory floor, in the retail vertical. We see the edge really being significant in all these verticals, but but that edge is now extends that hybrid data center that we've been talking so much about. So even though you have all these edge devices way out there on the edge, it's a critical part of the business. So you have to have, your developers need need to be able to develop for it, you need to secure it, you need to and you need to operate it and manage it. So now, you know, in a very short period of time, hybrids taken on another dimension, bringing you out to all these points on the edge which is the same but slightly different in every vertical. Now comes complexity and that's why automation is so important because with that power comes complexity but it's going to take automation to keep it all running, >>paul. Great insight. Thanks for coming on the cube. Open innovation out in the open with with you guys again continue. And the focus of the evolution of software and the cloud with enterprise I. T. Clearly a lot of innovation and your contribution to academia and the mass open cloud and all the open cloud initiatives, phenomenal. The world's going. Open source and continues and continues. Doesn't stop. The operating system of businesses is coming and you guys are well positioned. Thanks for coming on. >>Thanks again john. Always a pleasure. >>Okay paul, Cormier, President Ceo of Red Hat here on the Cuban, john for your host. Thanks for watching. Yeah. Yeah. Mhm mm.

(upbeat music) >> Hello, welcome back to this cube conversation, on cube on cloud startups. I'm John Furrier host of theCUBE. We're wrapping up the closing keynote fireside chat of the AWS showcase, the hottest startups in data and cloud. We've got some great guests here to eluminate what's happened and why it's important. And Michael Skok who's the founding partner, Michael Skok founding partner of Underscore VC, Mike Feinstein, principal business development manager, and the best Ben Haynes CIO advisor Lincoln Center for the Performing Arts. Gentlemen, thank you for joining me for this closing keynote for the AWS showcase. >> Pleasure to be here. >> So, first of all-- >> Happy to be here >> Guys, do you guys have a unique background from startup funding, growing companies, managing these partners at AWS and being a practitioner with Ben here. The first question I have is, what is the real market opportunity? We've heard from McKinsey that there's a trillion dollars of unlocked value in cloud and that really is going to come from all enterprises big and small. So the question is that that's what every wants to know. What's the secret answer key to the to the test if you are a business. 'Cause you don't want to be on the wrong side of cloud history here. There is a playbook, there's some formation of patterns and there's some playbook things happening out there. How do you guys see this? >> Well, I can try to take a crack at that. First of all I think, there's not only one playbook, you know, only one recipe. If it's a trillion dollar opportunity, that's in the aggregate. There's many different types of opportunities. I think you could have existing companies that are maybe older line companies that need to change the way they're doing things. You can have the younger companies that are trying to take advantage of all the data they've already collected and try to get more value out of it. There could be some radically different types of opportunities with newer technology. I think, you know, for each company just like each of the companies here at the showcase today, they are targeting some, you know, segment of this. Each of those segments is already large. And I think you're going to see a wide range of solutions taking hold here. >> Yeah, cloud drives a lot of value. Michael, I want to get your thoughts. You know, you've seen the software revolution you know, over the years. This time it seems to be accelerated, the time to value, if you're a startup. I mean, you couldn't ask for the perfect storm for our innovation if you're coming out of MIT, Stanford, any college. If you're not even going to school you can get in cloud, do anything. Starting software now is not as hard as it was or its different. What's your perspective because you know, these companies are adding treated value and they're going into an enterprise market that wants scale, they want the reliability. How do you see this evolving? >> You know, the very first time I saw Bezos get on stage and pitch AWS he said one thing which is, "We take away all the hard stuff about starting a software business and let you focus on the innovation." And I think that's still applies. So you're dead right John. And honestly, most founders don't want to spend any time on anything other than unique piece of innovation that they're going to deliver for their customers. So, I think that is fabulous news. I'm going to joke for a second, so I think we're all under shooting on this number. I mean, the reality is that every part of compute infrastructure that we talk about today was built from an infrastructure that's you know, decades old. By which I mean 30 to 50 decades in some 30 to 50 years in some cases. And we look forward in 30 to 50 years, we won't be talking about cloud or everything else. We'll be just talking about computing or whatever it is that we want to talk about at the edge. Or the application of data that you know, in a car and an ARVR heads up display that's helping surgeons work across the world. The fact is the only way this is really going to work is on the cloud. So I think it's a multi-trillion dollar opportunity, we're just taking a snapshot of it right now. And we're in an interesting point because of course digital transformation has been rapidly accelerated. I mean, there's all these jokes about you know, we've had five years of transformation in five months. I don't really care what the number is but what is obvious is that we couldn't have gone off to work and to play and to teach and all these other things without the cloud. And we just took it for granted but a year ago, that's what we all did and look, they're thriving. This whole thing is that, you know, a live broadcast that we're doing on the cloud. So yeah, I think it's a very big opportunity and whatever sector I think to Mike's point, that you look at and all the companies that you've seen this morning prove that, if you want to innovate today, you start on the cloud. Your cloud native as I would say. And as you grow, you will be a cloud assumed. It will be the basis on which everybody wants to access your products and services. So I'm excited about the future if you can't tell. >> I totally subscribe to that. Ben, I want to get your take as the CIO, now advisor to companies. If you're going to look at what Michael's laying out, which is born in the cloud native, they have an advantage, an inherent advantage right out of the gate. They have speed agility and scale. If you're an existing business you say, "Wait a minute I'm going to be competed against these hot startups." There's some serious fear of missing out and fear of getting screwed, right? I mean, you might go out of business. So this is the real threat. This is not just talked about, there's real examples now playing out. So as a practitioner, thinking about re-architecting or rejuvenating or pivoting or just being competitive. It's really the pressure's there. How do you see this? >> Yeah I know it really is. And every enterprise company and through every decade is it's a buyer versus build conversation. And with the cloud opportunities, you can actually build a lot quicker or you can leverage companies that can even go quicker than you that have a focus on innovation. 'Cause sometimes enterprise companies, it's hard to focus on the really cool stuff and that's going to bring value but maybe it won't. So if you can partner with someone and some of these companies that you just showcase, start doing some amazing things. That can actually help accelerate your own internal innovation a lot quicker than trying to spool up your own team. >> We heard some companies talking about day two operations lift and shift, not a layup either. I mean, lift and shift if not done properly as it's well discussed. And McKinsey actually puts that in their report as there's other point outs. It's not a no brainer. I mean, it's a no brainer to go to the cloud but if you lift and shift without really thinking it through or remediating anything, it could be, it could cost more. And you got the CAPEX and OPEX dynamics. So, certainly cloud is happening and this kind of gives a great segue into our next topic that I'd love to get you guys to weigh in on. And that is the business model, the business structure, business organization. Michael you brought up some interesting topics around, some of the new ideas that could be, you know, decentralized or just different consumption capabilities on both sides of the equation. So, the market's there, trillions and trillions of dollars are shifting and the spoils will go to the ones who are smart and agile and fast. But the business model, you could have it, you could be in the right market, but the wrong business model. Who wants to take the first cut at that? >> Mike do you want to go? >> Sure, I'd be happy to. I think that, you know, I mean again, there's not there only going to be one answer but I think one of the things that really make sense is that the business models can be much more consumption-based. You're certainly not going to see annual software licenses that you saw in the old world. Things are going to be much more consumption-based obviously software is a service type of models. And you're going to see, I think lots of different innovations. I've also seen a lot of companies that are starting up kind of based on open source as like a first foray. So there's an open source project that really catches hold. And then a company comes up behind it to both enhance it and to also provide support and to make it a real enterprise offering. But they get there early quick adoption of the frontline engineers by starting off with an open source project. And that's a model that I've seen work quite well. And I think it's a very interesting one. So, you know, the most important thing is that the business model has to be one that's as flexible as what the solutions are that you're trying to get the customers to adopt. The old way of everything being kind of locked in and rigid isn't going to work in this world 'cause you have to just really be agile. >> I want to come back to you Mike in a second on this 'cause I know Amazon's got some innovative go to market stuff. Michael you've written about this, I've read many blog posts on your side about SaaS piece. What's your take on business structure. I mean, obviously with remote, it's clear people are recognizing virtual companies are available. You mentioned you know, edge and compute, and these new app, these emerging technologies. Does the business structure and models shift? Do you have to be on certain side of this business model innovation? How do you view? 'Cause you're seeing the startups who are usually crazy at first, but then they become correct at the end of the day. What's your take? >> Well first of all, I love this debate because it's over. We used to have things that were not successful that would become shelfware. And that just doesn't work in the cloud. There is no shelfware. You're either live and being used or you're dead. So the great news about this is, it's very visible. You know, you can measure every person's connection to you for how long and what they're doing. And so the people that are smart, don't start with this question, the business model. They start with what am I actually doing for my user that's in value them? So I'll give you some examples like build on Mike's team. So, you know, I backed a company called Acquia. But it was based on an open source project called Drupal. Which was initially used for content management. Great, but people started building on it and over time, it became used for everything from the Olympics and hosting, you know, theirs to the Grammy's, to you know, pick your favorite consumer brand that was using it to host all of their different brands and being very particular about giving people the experiences. So, it's now a digital experience platform. But the reason that it grew successfully as a company is because on top of the open source project, we could see what people were doing. And so we built what in effect was the basis for them to get comfortable. By the way, Amazon is very fundamental partner in this was, became an investor extremely helpful. And again, took away all the heavy lifting so we could focus on the innovation. And so that's an example of what's going on. And the model there is very simple. People are paying for what they use to put that digital experience of that, to create a great customer journey. And for people to have the experience that obviously you know, makes the brand look good or makes the audience feel great if it's the Grammy's or whatever it is. So I think that's one example, but I'll give you two others because they are totally different. And one of the most recent investments we made is in a company called Coder. Which is a doc spelled backwards. and it's a new kind of doc that enables people to collaborate and to bring data and graphics and workflow and everything else, all into the simplicity of what's like opening up a doc. And they don't actually charge anybody who uses their docs. They just charge for people who make their docs. So its a make a best pricing, which is very interesting. They've got phenomenal metrics. I mean they're like over 140% net dollar retention, which is astoundingly good. And they grew over three and a half times last year. So that's another model, but it's consumer and it's, you know, as I said, make a price. And then, you know, another company we've been involved with if I look at it way back was Demand Web. It was the first e-commerce on demand company. We didn't charge for the software at all. We didn't charge for anything in fact. what we did was to take a percentage of the sales that went through the platform. And of course everybody loved that because, you know, if we were selling more or getting better uplift then everybody started to do very well. So, you know, the world's biggest brands moved online and started using our platform because they didn't want to create all that infrastructure. Another totally different model. And I could go on but the point is, if you start from the customer viewpoint like what are you doing for the customer? Are you helping them sell more? Or are you helping them build more effective business processes or better experiences? I think you've got a fantastic opportunity to build a great model in the cloud. >> Yeah, it's a great point. I think that's a great highlight also call out for expectations become the experience, as the old saying goes. If a customer sees value in something, you don't have to be tied to old ways of selling or pricing. And this brings up, Ben, I want to tie in you in here and maybe bring Mike back in. As an enterprise, it used to be the old adage of, well startups are unreliable, blah, blah, blah, you know, they got to get certified and enterprise usually do things more complicated than say consumer businesses. But now Amazon has all kinds of go to market. They have the marketplace, they have all kinds of the partner networks. This certification integration is a huge part of this. So back to, you know, Michael's point of, if you're dead you're dead or knows it, but if you're alive you usually have some momentum it's usually well understood, but then you have to integrate. So it has to be consumable for the enterprise. So Ben, how do you see that? Because at the end of the day, there's this desire for the better product and the better use case. That can, how do I procure it? Integration? These used to be really hard problems. Seems to be getting easier or are they? What's your take? >> Not 100%. I mean, even five years ago you would have to ask a lot of startups for a single sign on and as table stakes now. So the smart ones are understanding the enterprise principles that we need and a lot of it is around security. And then, they're building that from the start, from the start of their products. And so if you get out of that security hurdle, the stability so far is a lot more improved because they are, you know, a lot more focused and moving in a really, really quick way which can help companies, you know, move quickly. So definitely seen an improvement and there's still, the major entry point is credit card, small user base, small pricing, so you're not dealing with procurement. And building your way up into the big purchase model, right? And that model hasn't changed except the start is a lot lot quicker and a lot easier to get going. >> You know, I remember the story of the Amazon web stores, how they won the CIA contract is someone put a test on a credit card and IBM had the deal in their back pocket. They had the Ivory Tower sales call, Michael, you know the playbook on enterprise sales, you know, you got the oracles and you guys call it the top golf tournament smoothing and then you got the middle and then you got the bottoms up you got the, you know, the data dogs of the world who can just come in with freemium. So there's different approaches. How do you guys see that? Michael and Mike, I'd love for you to weigh in on this because this is really where there's no one answer, but depending upon the use case, there's certain motions that work better. Can you elaborate on which companies should pay attention to what and how customers should understand how they're buying? >> Yeah, I can go first on that. I think that first of all, with every customer it's going to be a little different situation, depends on the scale of the solution. But I find that, these very large kind of, you know, make a huge decision and buy some really big thing all at once. That's not happening very much anymore. As you said John, people are kind of building up it's either a grassroots adoption that then becomes an enterprise sale, or there is some trials or smaller deployments that then build up at enterprise sales. Companies can't make those huge mistake. So if they're going to make a big commitment it's based on confidence, that's come from earlier success. And one of the things that we do at AWS in addition to kind of helping enterprises choose the right technology partners, such as many of the companies here today. We also have solutions partners that can help them analyze the market and make the choice and help them implement it. So depending on the level of help that they need, there's lots of different resources that are going to be available to help them make the right choice the first time. >> Michael, your thoughts on this, because ecosystems are a part of the entire thing and partnering with Amazon or any cloud player, you need to be secure. You need to have all the certifications. But the end of the day, if it works, it works. And you can consume it whatever way you can. I mean, you can buy download through the marketplace. You can go direct, it's free. What do you see as the best mix of go to market from a cloud standpoint? Given that there's a variety of different use cases. >> Well, I'm going to play off Ben and Mike on this one and say, you know, there's a perfect example of what Ben brought up, which is single sign on. For some companies, if you don't have that you just can't get in the door. And at the other extreme to what Mike is saying, you know, there are reasons why people want to try stuff before they buy it. And so, you've got to find some way in between these two things to either partner with the right people that have the whole product solution to work with you. So, you know, if you don't have single sign on, you know, go work with Okta. And if you don't have all the certification that's needed well, work with AWS and you know, take it on that side of cash and have better security than anybody. So there's all sorts of ways to do this. But the bottom line is I think you got to be able to share value before you charge. And I'll give you two examples that are extreme in our portfolio, because I think it will show the sort of the edge with these two things. You know, the first one is a company called Popcart. It's been featured a lot in the press because when COVID hit, nobody could find whatever it was, that TP or you know, the latest supplies that they wanted. And so Popcart basically made it possible for people to say, "Okay, go track all the favorite suppliers." Whether it's your Walmarts or your Targets or your Amazons, et cetera. And they would come back and show you the best price and (indistinct) it cost you nothing. Once you started buying of course they were getting (indistinct) fees and they're transferring obviously values so everybody's doing well. It's a win-win, doesn't cost the consumer anything. So we love those strategies because, you know, whenever you can make value for people without costing them anything, that is great. The second one is the complete opposite. And again, it's an interesting example, you know, to Ben's point about how you have to work with existing solutions in some cases, or in some cases across more things to the cloud. So it's a company called Cloud Serum. It's also one we've partnered with AWS on. They basically help you save money as you use AWS. And it turns out that's important on the way in because you need to know how much it's going to cost to run what you're already doing off premises, sorry off the cloud, into the cloud. And secondly, when you move it there to optimize that spend so you don't suddenly find yourself in a situation where you can't afford to run the product or service. So simply put, you know, this is the future. We have to find ways to specifically make it easy again from the customer standpoint. The get value as quickly as possible and not to push them into anything that feels like, Oh my God, that's a big elephant of a risk that I don't obviously want to take on. >> Well, I'd like to ask the next question to Michael and Ben. This is about risk management from an enterprise perspective. And the reason Michael we just want to get you in here 'cause you do risk for living. You take risks, you venture out and put bets on horses if you will. You bet on the startups and the growing companies. So if I'm a customer and this is a thing that I'm seeing both in the public and private sector where partnerships are super critical. Especially in public right now. Public private partnerships, cybersecurity and data, huge initiatives. I saw General Keith Alexander talking about this, about his company and a variety of reliance on the private problem. No one winning formula anymore. Now as an enterprise, how do they up level their skill? How do you speak to enterprises who are watching and learning as they're taking the steps to be cloud native. They're training their people, they're trying to get their IT staff to be superpowers. They got to do all these. They got to rejuvenate, they got to innovate. So one of the things that they got to take in is new partnerships. How can an enterprise look at these 10 companies and others as partners? And how should the startups that are growing, become partners for the enterprise? Because if they can crack that code, some say that's the magical formula. Can you guys weigh in on that? (overlapping chatter) >> Look, the unfortunate starting point is that they need to have a serious commitment to wanting to change. And you're seeing a lot of that 'cause it is popping up now and they're all nodding their heads. But this needs people, it needs investment, and it needs to be super important, not just to prior, right? And some urgency. And with that behind you, you can find the right companies and start partnering to move things forward. A lot of companies don't understand their risk profile and we're still stuck in this you know, the old days of global network yet infiltrated, right? And that's sort of that its like, "Oh my God, we're done." And it's a lot more complicated now. And there needs to be a lot of education about the value of privacy and trust to our consumers. And once the executive team understands that then the investments follow. The challenge there is everyone's waiting, hoping that nothing goes wrong. When something goes wrong, oh, we better address that, right? And so how do we get ahead of that? And you need a very proactive CSO and CIO and CTO and all three if you have them really pushing this agenda and explaining what these risks are. >> Michael, your thoughts. Startups can be a great enabler for companies to change. They have their, you know, they're faster. They bring in new tech to the scenario scene. What's your analysis? >> Again, I'll use an example to speak to some of the things that Ben's talking about. Which is, let's say you decide you want to have all of your data analysis in the cloud. It turns out Amazon's got a phenomenal set of services that you can use. Do everything from ingest and then wrangle your data and get it cleaned up, and then build one of the apps to gain insight on it and use AI and ML to make that whole thing work. But even Amazon will be the first to tell you that if you have all their services, you need a team understand the development, the operations and the security, DevSecOps, it's typically what it's referred to. And most people don't have that. If you're sure and then say you're fortune 1000, you'll build that team. You'll have, you know, a hundred people doing that. But once you get below that, even in the mid tier, even in a few billion dollar companies, it's actually very hard to have those skills and keep them up to date. So companies are actually getting built that do all of that for you, that effectively, you know, make your services into a product that can be run end to end. And we've invested in one and again we partnered with Amazon on gold Kazina. They effectively make the data lake as a service. And they're effectively building on top of all the Amazon services in orchestrating and managing all that DevSecOps for you. So you don't need that team. And they do it in, you know, days or weeks, not months or years. And so I think that the point that Ben made is a really good one. Which is, you know, you've got to make it a priority and invest in it. And it doesn't just happen. It's a new set of skills, they're different. They require obviously everything from the very earliest stage of development in the cloud, all the way through to the sort of managing and running a bit. And of course maintaining it all securely and unscalable, et cetera. (overlapping chatter) >> It's interesting you bring up that Amazon's got great security. You mentioned that earlier. Mike, I wanted to bring you in because you guys it's graduating a lot of startups, graduating, it's not like they're in school or anything, but they're really, you're building on top of AWS which is already, you know, all the SOC report, all the infrastructure's there. You guys have a high bar on security. So coming out of the AWS ecosystem is not for the faint of heart. I mean, you got to kind of go through and I've heard from many startups that you know, that's a grueling process. And this is, should be good news for the enterprise. How are you guys seeing that partnership? What's the pattern recognition that we can share with enterprises adopting startups coming on the cloud? What can they expect? What are some best practices? What are the things to look for in adopting startup technologies? >> Yeah, so as you know we have a shared security model where we do the security for the physical infrastructure that we're operating, and then we try to share best practices to our partners who really own the security for their applications. Well, one of the benefits we have particularly with the AWS partner network is that, we will help vet these companies, we will review their security architecture, we'll make recommendations. We have a lot of great building blocks of services they can use to build their applications, so that they have a much better chance of really delivering a more secure total application to the enterprise customer. Now of course the enterprise customers still should be checking this and making sure that all of these products meet their needs because that is their ultimate responsibility. But by leveraging the ecosystem we have, the infrastructure we have and the strength of our partners, they can start off with a much more secure application or use case than they would if they were trying to build it from scratch. >> All right. Also, I want to get these guys out of the way in on this last question, before we jump into the wrap up. products and technologies, what is the most important thing enterprises should be focused on? It could be a list of three or four or five that they should be focused on from emerging technologies or a technology secret sauce perspective. Meaning, I'm going to leverage some new things we're going to build and do or buy from cloud scale. What are the most important product technology issues they need to be paying attention to? >> I think I'll run with that first. There's a major, major opportunity with data. We've gone through this whole cycle of creating data lakes that tended to data's forms and big data was going to solve everything. Enterprises are sitting on an amazing amount of information. And anything that can be done to, I actually get insights out of that, and I don't mean dashboards, PI tools, they're like a dime a dozen. How can we leverage AI and ML to really start getting some insights a lot quicker and a lot more value to the company from the data they owns. Anything around that, to me is a major opportunity. >> Now I'm going to go just a little bit deeper on that 'cause I would agree with all those points that Ben made. I think one of the real key points is to make sure that they're really leveraging the data that they have in kind of in place. Pulling in data from all their disparate apps, not trying to generate some new set of data, but really trying to leverage what they have so they can get live information from the disparate apps. Whether it's Salesforce or other systems they might have. I also think it's important to give users the tools to do a lot of their own analytics. So I think definitely, you know, kind of dashboards are a dime a dozen as Ben said, but the more you can do to make it really easy for users to do their own thing, so they're not relying on some central department to create some kind of report for them, but they can innovate on their own and do their own analytics of the data. I think its really critical to help companies move faster. >> Michael? >> I'll just build on that with an example because I think Ben and Mike gave two very good things, you know, data and making it self service to the users et cetera So, an example is one of our companies called Salsify, which is B2B commerce. So they're enabling brands to get their products out into the various different channels the day that people buy them on. Which by the way, an incredible number of channels have been created, whether it's, you know, Instagram at one extreme or of course you know, traditional commerce sites is another. And it's actually impossible to get all of the different capabilities of your product fully explained in the right format in each of those channels humanly. You actually have to use a computer. So that highlights the first thing I was thinking is very important is, what could you not do before that you can now do in the cloud? And you know, do in a distributed fashion. So that's a good example. The second thing is, and Mike said it very well, you know, if you can give people the data that Ben was referring to in a way that they line a business user, in this case, a brand manager, or for example the merchandiser can actually use, they'll quickly tell you, "Oh, these three channels are really not worth us spending a lot of money on. We need waste promotion on them. But look at this one, this one's really taking up. This TikTok thing is actually worth paying attention to. Why don't we enable people to buy, you know, products there?" And then focus in on it. And Salsify, by the way, is you know, I can give you stats with every different customer they've got, but they've got huge brands. The sort of Nestlés, the L'Oreals et cetera. Where they're measuring in terms of hundreds of percent of sales increase, because of using the data of Ben's point and making itself service to Mike's point. >> Awesome. Thought exercise for this little toss up question, for anyone who wants to grab it. If you had unlimited budget for R&D, and you wanted to play the long game and you wanted to take some territory down in the future. What technology and what area would you start carving out and protecting and owning or thinking about or digging into. There's a variety of great stuff out there and you know, being prepared for potentially any wildcards, what would it be? >> Well, I don't mind jumping in. That's a tough question. Whatever I did, I would start with machine learning. I think we're still just starting to see the benefits of what this can do across all of different applications. You know, if you look at what AWS has been doing, we, you know, we recently, many of our new service offerings are integrating machine learning in order to optimize automatically, to find the right solution automatically, to find errors in code automatically. And I think you're going to see more and more machine learning built into all types of line of business applications. Sales, marketing, finance, customer service. You know, you already see some of it but I think it's going to happen more and more. So if I was going to bet on one core thing, it would be that. >> I'll jump on that just because I-- >> You're VC, do you think about this as an easy one for you. >> Well, yes or no (indistinct) that I've been a VC now for too long. I was you know (indistinct) for 21 years. I could have answered that question pretty well but in the last 19 of becoming a VC, I've become ruined by just capital being put behind things. But in all seriousness, I think Mike is right. I think every single application is going to get not just reinvented completely reimagined by ML. Because there's so much of what we do that there is indeed managing the data to try to understand how to improve the business process. And when you can do that in an automated fashion and with a continuous close loop that improves it, it takes away all the drudgery and things like humans or the other extreme, you know, manufacturing. And in-between anything that goes from border to cash faster is going to be good for business. And that's going to require ML. So it's an exciting time ahead. That's where we're putting our money. >> Ben, are you going to go off the board here or you're going to stay with machine learning and dating, go wild card here. Blockchain? AR? VR? (overlapping chatter) >> Well I'd have to say ML and AI applying to privacy and trust. Privacy and trust is going to be a currency that a lot of companies need to deal with for a long time coming. And anything you can do to speed that up and honestly remove the human element, and like Michael said, there's a lot of, before there's a lot of services on AWS that are very creative. There's a lot of security built-in But it's that one S3 bucket that someone left open on the internet, that causes the breach. So how are we automating that? Like how do we take the humans out of this process? So we don't make human errors to really get some security happening. >> I think trust is an interesting one. Trust is kind of data as well. I mean, communities are, misinformation, we saw that with elections, huge. Again, that's back to data. We're back to data again. >> You know, John if I may, I'd like to add to that though. It's a good example of something that none of us can predict. Which is, what will be a fundamentally new way of doing this that we haven't really thought of? And, you know, the blockchain is effectively created a means for people to do distributed computing and also, you know, sharing of data, et cetera. Without the human being in the middle and getting rid of many of the intermediaries that we thought were necessary. So, I don't know whether it's the next blockchain or there's blockchain itself, but I have a feeling that this whole issue of trust will become very different when we have new infrastructure. >> I think I agree with everyone here. The data's key. I come back down to data whether you're telling the sovereignty misinformation, the data is there. Okay. Final, final question before we wrap up. This has been amazing on a more serious note for the enterprise folks out there and people in general and around the world. If you guys could give a color commentary answer to, what the post COVID world will look like. With respect to technology adoption, societal impact and technology for potentially good and aura for business. Now that we're coming closer to vaccines and real life again, what is the post COVID world going to look like? What do we learn from it? And how does that translate into everyday in real life benefits? >> Well, I think one of the things that we've seen is that people have realized you can do a lot of work without being in the office. You could be anywhere as long as you can access the data and make the insights from it that you need to. And so I think there's going to be an expectation on the part of users, that there'll be able to do that all the time. They'll be able to do analytics on their phone. They'll be able to do it from wherever they are. They'll be able to do it quickly and they'll be able to get access to the information that they need. And that's going to force companies to continue to be responsive to the expectations and the needs of their users, so that they can keep people productive and have happy employees. Otherwise they're going to go work somewhere else. >> Michael, any thoughts? Post COVID, what do we learn? What happens next? >> You said one key thing Mike, expectations. And I think we're going to live in a very difficult world because expectations are completely unclear. And you might think it's based on age, or you might think it's based on industry or geography, etc. The reality is people have such wildly different expectations and you know, we've tried to do surveys and to try and understand, you know, whether there are some patterns here. I think it's going to be one word, hybrid. And how we deal with hybrid is going to be a major leadership challenge. Because it's impossible to predict what people will do and how they will behave and how they want to for example, go to school or to you know, go to work or play, et cetera. And so I think the third word that I would use is flexibility. You know, we just have to be agile and flexible until we figure out, you know, how this is going to settle out, to get the best of both worlds, because there's so much that we've learned that has been to your point, really beneficial. The more productivity taking out the community. But there's also a lot of things that people really want to get back to such as social interaction, you know, connecting with their friends and living their lives. >> Ben, final word. >> So I'll just drill in on that a little bit deeper. The war on talent, if we talk about tech, if we talk a lot about data, AI, ML. That it's going to be a big differentiator for the companies that are willing to maintain a work from home and your top level resources are going to be dictating where they're working from. And they've seen our work now. And you know, if you're not flexible with how you're running your organization, you will start to lose talent. And companies are going to have to get their head around that as we move forward. >> Gentlemen, thank you very much for your time. That's a great wrap up to this cube on cloud, the AWS startup showcase. Thank you very much on behalf of Dave Vellante, myself, the entire cube team and Amazon web services. Thank you very much for closing out the keynote. Thanks for your time. >> Thank you John and thanks Amazon for a great day. >> Yeah, thank you John. >> Okay, that's a wrap for today. Amazing event. Great keynote, great commentary, 10 amazing companies out there growing, great traction. Cloud startup, cloud scale, cloud value for the enterprise. I'm John Furrier on behalf of theCUBE and Dave Vellante, thanks for watching. (bright music)

>> Announcer: From San Mateo, California, it's theCUBE covering SnapLogic Innovation Day 2018, brought to you by SnapLogic. >> Hey, welcome back, Jeff Frick here with theCUBE. We're at the Crossroads 101 and 92. You've probably been there. You're probably stuck in traffic. Look up, you'll see the sign SnapLogic. That's where we are. We're talking digital transformation. You've probably heard us talk about digital transformation on theCUBE, but not that many people or, excuse me, companies actually have an executive who's in charge of digital transformation. And that's not the case here at SnapLogic. And we're really excited to have our next guest. She's Diletta D'Onofrio, and she's the Head of Digital Transformation for SnapLogic. Welcome. >> Thank you, thank you for inviting me. >> Absolutely, so why does SnapLogic have a Head of Digital Transformation? I've never heard that for a company, and you're not really running digital transformation inside the company. You're helping your customers' digital transformation journey. >> Yeah absolutely, because integration is at the core of many transformations that we see led by our clients. And it's not about implementing a software for the most part. There's always the people processing technology. >> Jeff: Right, right. >> So what we are trying to do is to insert ourselves in the strategic discussion so that the implementation is more solid and secure. >> Right, right. >> And, so that's the intent of our practice. >> Right, and as you said, people process technology. We hear it all the time, and we hear a lot, too, of best practices in digital transformation is you have to make a commitment to that process change. You have to make a commitment to the people change. That's actually the hardest part. >> Diletta: Yeah. >> I think integration, usually, no one really wants to talk about integration up front because that's that hard little piece that we have to worry about down the road, but let's just not pretend that we have to do that. But as you said, that's a really important piece. It's tying all these systems together. So, you've been helping people with digital transformation here and in some of your prior jobs. So when you sit down with someone who's never heard that term, what do you tell them? What is digital transformation? >> So typically, we're pretty fortunate because I think especially in high tech, here in the valley, there are many clients that have a role which is equivalent to mine and is focused internally on digital transformation. So there either the head of digital transformation, the chief of digital officer. And what we typically do with them is to try to figure out what their plans are and participate to their journey by obviously helping from an integration perspective. >> Jeff: Right. >> Both on the application and data side. >> And where do there usually report up? It's always an interesting conversation because we go to chief data officer events. We go to chief analytics officer events. So you've got kind of these new evolving roles that are really built around data and enabling data and becoming a data driven enterprise. But does it report to the CIO? Does it report to the CTO? Does it report to up through the CEO? And then now you've got this role of people kind of heading up the digital transformation. Where do you see them reporting through? And what's kind of the most effective? Maybe that's a better question. What's the more effective place for them to report through? >> It's a little bit all over the map. There is not a standard. For example, a couple of clients, at Qualcomm, our equivalent in digital transformation is head of application, and he reports to the CIO. >> Jeff: Okay. >> So that's pretty traditional. Often the CIO is chartered with digital transformation for obvious reasons. He has the skillset, he has the team, he has the capability. But, I've seen cases where he or she reports to the CEO. >> Okay. >> Which is even more interesting I think because then it put an emphasis on the importance of the program and the importance of the targets associated with this program. So another client of ours airborne in Texas is actually the CMO and head of sales who reports to the CEO and is also in charge of digital transformation. And we are helping him with some cust-- >> It has the hat of also sales and marketing? >> Diletta: Absolutely, three jobs. >> So that's pretty interesting. Which is good cause those are the things that are kind of leading edge, front edge, to the client. As opposed to digital transformation just on your back-end processes. System integrators, in both those companies, you just listed as big companies. The system integrators have been building transformation businesses for a long, long time. How do they fit? How do you work with them? How does that kind of all come together around the project? >> Yep, so Qualcomm for example, you can see pretty much any single system integrator that you can imagine of. And they all have a portion of the transformation. >> Jeff: Right. >> None of them covers the entire scope. >> Jeff: Right. >> And the interesting portion as well is that because they are all competitors, often there is not a lot of collaboration. And then we are a little bit kind of agnostic, but obviously we have an interest in penetrating the account in terms of making the use of our technology. >> Right. >> So it's in our interest in what I'm trying to do, obviously I come from the system integrator world, so I do speak their language. And what we are trying to do is to work with them to make sure that we understand, were there use cases, were there business cases, and we kind of work together across different objective to enable the client to hopefully be digitally transformed. >> Right, so it's such a big word and the CEOs are talking to the boards about it and the public companies are talking to the analysts on the earnings call. We're going to digitally transform, and these are big organizations that are complex and have many, many pieces and parts. How do you get started? What are some best practices for people that have a board edict, or have a CEO edict? We need to digitally transform, I'm afraid of the competition, I don't even know who's coming. Where should people start, how do they slice and dice this thing so their not trying to eat the whole elephant in one bite? >> Yeah, the only cases that I've seen success on are the ones where, hopefully the leader has done that before. In some kind of shape or form. If it's a brand new chief digital officer, there are more challenges. But the most important thing is kind of keep the momentum. And you tend to keep the momentum through some sort of quick-wing. So if the scope is too large, and the roadmap is to fix over three or five years given the speed of change in technology is very difficult to achieve those goals. >> Jeff: Right. >> So it's much better to have a more agile mentality and maybe plan a year ahead. We did some very tangible, deliverable in the way and mobilize everyone around this. So that the momentum is kept and it's not just a nice word that a company has because they need to talk about the digital transformation. >> Right, and then what do you look at? You obviously have a specific point of view. You have your background and you've been a system integrator, and transformation leader. But in terms of coming from the SnapLogic point of view and integration, and that opportunity, What do you look for as opportunities for those early wins? Either based on prior experience or you just know there's some really inefficient ugly things that you can make big difference on, relatively easy. What do you look for as kind of those first wins in a digital transformation project? >> Yeah, ideally we love to be involved with everything to do with customer and sales and revenue. Because obviously those are the biggest paying point for the client. >> Jeff: Right. >> But often, you need to be flexible enough to understand what the priorities are. Currently I am involved in a much more traditional close activity accounting process. You will be thinking, okay, this may cost us, but actually fixing that problem first will create a lot of credibility within the company. So I think a company like ours has to be very flexible, need to listen to the client. >> Mh-hm. >> And be very flexible in terms of what priorities to start with first. >> Right. >> To prove the technology and then progress, maybe for higher value-- >> Right. >> activities. >> So I would hope it's 2018, that people understand that they're not setting forth on a five-year SAP, ERP implementation. Are we hopefully passed that, that this is not new information. That you need to take small bites, small victories, and move quickly. >> Yeah. >> Are we there? >> Yes but, still, I've seen a lot of strategy document and business plan that are two, three years of arisen and I think the arisen is way too long. But also at the same time, is this still teaching function? So you ask to picture a vision, at least directionally. >> Right. Right. >> So I think the vision has to be generic enough to then flex with the project and the activities within. >> Right. >> Two, three months. >> Right. >> Quarterly on most occasions. >> It's so funny that we continue to find these massive inefficiencies all over the place. You'd think that most of it had been wrung out by now. Between the European PA Limitations and all the business process reengineering, I guess was the old process >> Yes. >> before digital transformation. So I just wonder if you can share some stories from the field about some of these relatively short duration projects, and the yields that they are providing on this path to a more comprehensive digital transformation. >> Yeah so, the first example that comes to mind, again, going back to Qualcomm. When they talk about human capital management or engineering, what is interesting there is that you take the entire hire to retire. And it's pretty overwhelming. From the moment you hire an employee to the moment you obviously retire their function or their role, And what they did quite interestingly, was to come up with a few applications that will make the life of the employees and their manager easier. So we are biting the process by building application that for example, enable to facilitate the on-boarding or application that help HR with analytics and inquires. And gradually trying to automate the process which today even in a large company like a Fortune 100 company can be incredibly manual. >> Right. Right. >> And then another example that comes to mind to me is if you look at the entire holder to cash cycle of a company, from the moment the client to get in contact with the company through a website, to the moment they actually purchase the product. Again, there are many touch point and they're often disconnected. And a client of ours, Airborne, what we're doing with them is to just take one small bite which is figuring out from the time a client tried to configure a product on the website to the time they want to try the product. Our experience can be more automated. So that there is not a lot of interaction necessarily with customer services which has a limited bandwidth. But it's much more self-service. >> Jeff: Right. Right. >> And then gradually tackle the rest of the holder to cash cycle. >> So both of those examples are really about automating manual processes. >> Diletta: Yeah. >> As you just described them. So then what are the KPIs that you're using to measure success? Is it total time duration? Number of steps? Calls back to a person? What are some of the metrics of success? >> Yeah, so you see on the customers side it's kind of easy because you tend to very much require feedback from the customer. So if the customer satisfaction index goes up, or revenue goes up, or less return. So those KPIs we're kind of more familiar with. >> Okay. >> But when you look at the HR award, the human capital management award, there are so many ramifications of being able to serve your employees better. But much more intangible. Like for example, turnover. Well there is good turnover and bad turnover. So if you're serving your employees better with better hours, by which they can self-service some of their activities. Does it translate in less turnover? Maybe yes, or maybe actually that's translating more turnover because maybe the employees that sneak around are the ones that are more technology savvy, so. >> Right. >> Diletta: The human capital management side is harder in terms of defining KPIs. In it's much more early stage then anything to do with customer. And then there is the other universe associated with digitalizing product. Like for example, the world of IOT. That we are involved with, with a few clients. And that is a very measurable and tangible because you actually coming up with new product and what we're doing is facilitating the ability to access data. >> Jeff: Right. >> Which is a very tangible element of the product development lifecycle. >> So of all the transformation projects that you're involved in, how would you break them down in rough numbers of kind of cost savings on an existing process, which is through automation. Versus kind of forward facing customer facing, let's just call it warpped around a customer experience so ultimately you're getting higher customer satisfaction scores and revenue. Versus the third which you just touched on, which is so, so important. Which is converting from a product based company or some of these more tangible into more of a service recurring revenue. That's probably built around that product and the example that gets thrown around all the time is, when GE starts selling miles of propulsion versus selling engines. It's a very different kind of relationship. So in the things that you work on, how would you kind of break up the percentages in those three buckets? >> Yeah, so what we see still a lot, and what I would like to see less, is the first bucket. >> Jeff: Okay. >> Which is reducing cost so I will save more than 50%. >> Jeff: Okay. >> Which is around reduce cost, drive efficiency, better reporting, eliminating application, right? Because many client have too many application to preform some of these back office processes. >> Right. Right. >> And they're very much associated with cost exercise. >> Right. >> And so over 50%, for sure. >> Okay. And that's logical cause that's obviously an easy place to start. You're not changing the company per se. >> Yeah. >> You're looking for efficiencies. Alright so, Diletta, I'll give you the last word before we sign off. If you get called in to a new project, it's a CEO, they're stressed out, they know they have to do this. What do you tell them about digital transformation? How do you kind of help them break it down so it's not just this overwhelming, giant, goal on high? But actually something that they should get excited about, something they can have some success with and something that ultimately is going to be a really good thing. >> I think there is no one recipe. It's about figuring out where the company wants to go. What is the primary objective? Is it sales? Is it new market? Is it new product? And then kind of break it down in a tangible chunck and it kind of makes sense to them. But you got to go for the first priority item. This year I'm sure we'll be able to articulate very well. >> Yes, get that quick win. Well Diletta, thanks for spending a few minutes with us. And good luck on transforming everybody. (laughs) >> Thank you. >> Alright, she's Diletta, I'm Jeff. You're watching theCUBE, from SnapLogic headquarters in San Mateo, California. Thanks for watching. (bright music)

>> Announcer: From San Mateo, California, it's theCUBE covering SnapLogic Innovation Day 2018, brought to you by SnapLogic. >> Hey, welcome back, Jeff Frick here with theCUBE. We're at the Crossroads 101 and 92. You've probably been there. You're probably stuck in traffic. Look up, you'll see the sign SnapLogic. That's where we are. We're talking digital transformation. You've probably heard us talk about digital transformation on theCUBE, but not that many people or, excuse me, companies actually have an executive who's in charge of digital transformation. And that's not the case here at SnapLogic. And we're really excited to have our next guest. She's Diletta D'Onofrio, and she's the Head of Digital Transformation for SnapLogic. Welcome. >> Thank you, thank you for inviting me. >> Absolutely, so why does SnapLogic have a Head of Digital Transformation? I've never heard that for a company, and you're not really running digital transformation inside the company. You're helping your customers' digital transformation journey. >> Yeah absolutely, because integration is at the core of many transformations that we see led by our clients. And it's not about implementing a software for the most part. There's always the people processing technology. >> Jeff: Right, right. >> So what we are trying to do is to insert ourselves in the strategic discussion so that the implementation is more solid and secure. >> Right, right. >> And, so that's the intent of our practice. >> Right, and as you said, people process technology. We hear it all the time, and we hear a lot, too, of best practices in digital transformation is you have to make a commitment to that process change. You have to make a commitment to the people change. That's actually the hardest part. >> Diletta: Yeah. >> I think integration, usually, no one really wants to talk about integration up front because that's that hard little piece that we have to worry about down the road, but let's just not pretend that we have to do that. But as you said, that's a really important piece. It's tying all these systems together. So, you've been helping people with digital transformation here and in some of your prior jobs. So when you sit down with someone who's never heard that term, what do you tell them? What is digital transformation? >> So typically, we're pretty fortunate because I think especially Nytec here in the valley, there are many clients that have a role which is equivalent to mine and is focused internally on digital transformation. So there either the head of digital transformation, the chief of digital officer. And what we typically do with them is to try to figure out what their plans are and participate to their journey by obviously helping from an integration perspective. >> Jeff: Right. >> Both on the application and data side. >> And where do there usually report at? It's always an interesting conversation because we go to chief data officer events. We go to chief analytics officer events. So you've got kind of these new evolving roles that are really built around data and enabling data and becoming a data driven enterprise. But does it report to the CIO? Does it report to the CTO? Does it report to up through the CEO? And then now you've got this role of people kind of heading up the digital transformation. Where do you see them reporting through? And what's kind of the most effective? Maybe that's a better question. What's the more effective place for them to report through? >> It's a little bit all over the map. There is not a standard. For example, a couple of clients, at Qualcomm, our equivalent in digital transformation is head of application, and he reports to the CIO. >> Jeff: Okay. >> So that's pretty traditional. Often the CIO is chartered with digital transformation for obvious reasons. He has the skillset, he has the team, he has the capability. But, I've seen cases where he or she reports to the CEO. >> Okay. >> Which is even more interesting I think because then it put an emphasis on the importance of the program and the importance of the targets associated with this program. So another client of ours airborne in Texas is actually the CMO and head of sales who reports to the CEO and is also in charge of digital transformation. And we are helping him with some cust-- >> It has the hat of also sales and marketing? >> Diletta: Absolutely, three jobs. >> So that's pretty interesting. Which is good cause those are the things that are kind of leading edge, front edge, to the client. As opposed to digital transformation just on your back-end processes. System integrators, in both those companies, you just listed as big companies. The system integrators have been building transformation businesses for a long, long time. How do they fit? How do you work with them? How does that kind of all come together around the project? >> Yep, so Qualcomm for example, you can see pretty much any single system integrator that you can imagine of. And they all have a portion of the transformation. >> Jeff: Right. >> None of them covers the entire scope. >> Jeff: Right. >> And the interesting portion as well is that because they are all competitors, often there is not a lot of collaboration. And then we are a little bit kind of agnostic, but obviously we have an interest in penetrating the account in terms of making the use of our technology. >> Right. >> So it's in our interest in what I'm trying to do, obviously I come from the system integrator ward so I do speak their language. And what we are trying to do is to work with them to make sure that we understand, were there use cases, were there business cases, and we kind of work together across different objective to enable the client to hopefully be digitally transformed. >> Right, so it's such a big word and the CEOs are talking to the boards about it and the public companies are talking to the analysts on the earnings call. We're going to digitally transform, and these are big organizations that are complex and have many, many pieces and parts. How do you get started? What are some best practices for people that have a board edict, or have a CEO edict? We need to digitally transform, I'm afraid of the competition, I don't even know who's coming. Where should people start, how do they slice and dice this thing so their not trying to eat the whole elephant in one bite? >> Yeah, the only cases that I've seen success on are the ones where, hopefully the leader has done that before. In some kind of shape or form. If it's a brand new chief digital officer, there are more challenges. But the most important thing is kind of keep the momentum. And you tend to keep the momentum through some sort of quick-wing. So if the scope is too large, and the roadmap is to fix over three or five years given the speed of change in technology is very difficult to achieve those goals. >> Jeff: Right. >> So it's much better to have a more agile mentality and maybe plan a year ahead. We did some very tangible, deliverable in the way and mobilize everyone around this. So that the momentum is kept and it's not just a nice word that a company has because they need to talk about the digital transformation. >> Right, and then what do you look at? You obviously have a specific point of view. You have your background and you've been a system integrator, and transformation leader. But in terms of coming from the SnapLogic point of view and integration, and that opportunity, What do you look for as opportunities for those early wins? Either based on prior experience or you just know there's some really inefficient ugly things that you can make big difference on, relatively easy. What do you look for as kind of those first wins in a digital transformation project? >> Yeah, ideally we love to be involved with everything to do with customer and sales and revenue. Because obviously those are the biggest paying point for the client. >> Jeff: Right. >> But often, you need to be flexible enough to understand what the priorities are. Currently I am involved in a much more traditional close activity accounting process. You will be thinking, okay, this may cost us, but actually fixing that problem first will create a lot of credibility within the company. So I think a company like ours has to be very flexible, need to listen to the client. >> Mh-hm. >> And be very flexible in terms of what priorities to start with first. >> Right. >> To prove the technology and then progress, maybe for higher value-- >> Right. >> activities. >> So I would hope it's 2018, that people understand that they're not setting forth on a five-year SAP, ERP implementation. Are we hopefully passed that, that this is not new information. That you need to take small bites, small victories, and move quickly. >> Yeah. >> Are we there? >> Yes but, still, I've seen a lot of strategy document and business plan that are two, three years of arisen and I think the arisen is way too long. But also at the same time, is this still teaching function? So you ask to picture a vision, at least directionally. >> Right. Right. >> So I think the vision has to be generic enough to then flex with the project and the activities within. >> Right. >> Two, three months. >> Right. >> Quarterly on most occasions. >> It's so funny that we continue to find these massive inefficiencies all over the place. You'd think that most of it had been wrung out by now. Between the European PA Limitations and all the business process reengineering, I guess was the old process >> Yes. >> before digital transformation. So I just wonder if you can share some stories from the field about some of these relatively short duration projects, and the yields that they are providing on this path to a more comprehensive digital transformation. >> Yeah so, the first example that comes to mind, again, going back to Qualcomm. When they talk about human capital management or engineering, what is interesting there is that you take the entire hire to retire. And it's pretty overwhelming. From the moment you hire an employee to the moment you obviously retire their function or their role, And what they did quite interestingly, was to come up with a few applications that will make the life of the employees and their manager easier. So we are biting the process by building application that for example, enable to facilitate the on-boarding or application that help HR with analytics and inquires. And gradually trying to automate the process which today even in a large company like a fortune 100 company can be incredibly manual. >> Right. Right. >> And then another example that comes to mind to me is if you look at the entire holder to cash cycle of a company, from the moment the client to get in contact with the company through a website, to the moment they actually purchase the product. Again, there are many touch point and they're often disconnected. And a client of ours, Airborne, what we're doing with them is to just take one small bite which is figuring out from the time a client tried to configure a product on the website to the time they want to try the product. Our experience can be more automated. So that there is not a lot of interaction necessarily with customer services which has a limited bandwidth. But it's much more self-service. >> Jeff: Right. Right. >> And then gradually tackle the rest of the holder to cash cycle. >> So both of those examples are really about automating manual processes. >> Diletta: Yeah. >> As you just described them. So then what are the KPIs that you're using to measure success? Is it total time duration? Number of steps? Calls back to a person? What are some of the metrics of success? >> Yeah, so you see on the customers side it's kind of easy because you tend to very much require feedback from the customer. So if the customer satisfaction index goes up, or revenue goes up, or less return. So those KPIs we're kind of more familiar with. >> Okay. >> But when you look at the HR award, the human capital management award, there are so many ramifications of being able to serve your employees better. But much more intangible. Like for example, turnover. Well there is good turnover and bad turnover. So if you're serving your employees better with better hours, by which they can self-service some of their activities. Does it translate in less turnover? Maybe yes, or maybe actually that's translating more turnover because maybe the employees that sneak around are the ones that are more technology savvy, so. >> Right. >> Diletta: The human capital management side is harder in terms of defining KPIs. In it's much more early stage then anything to do with customer. And then there is the other universe associated with digitalizing product. Like for example, the world of IOT. That we are involved with, with a few clients. And that is a very measurable and tangible because you actually coming up with new product and what we're doing is facilitating the ability to access data. >> Jeff: Right. >> Which is a very tangible element of the product development lifecycle. >> So of all the transformation projects that you're involved in, how would you break them down in rough numbers of kind of cost savings on an existing process, which is through automation. Versus kind of forward facing customer facing, let's just call it warpped around a customer experience so ultimately you're getting higher customer satisfaction scores and revenue. Versus the third which you just touched on, which is so, so important. Which is converting from a product based company or some of these more tangible into more of a service recurring revenue. That's probably built around that product and the example that gets thrown around all the time is, when GE starts selling miles of propulsion versus selling engines. It's a very different kind of relationship. So in the things that you work on, how would you kind of break up the percentages in those three buckets? >> Yeah, so what we see still a lot, and what I would like to see less, is the first bucket. >> Jeff: Okay. >> Which is reducing cost so I will save more than 50%. >> Jeff: Okay. >> Which is around reduce cost, drive efficiency, better reporting, eliminating application, right? Because many client have too many application to preform some of these back office processes. >> Right. Right. >> And they're very much associated with cost exercise. >> Right. >> And so over 50%, for sure. >> Okay. And that's logical cause that's obviously an easy place to start. You're not changing the company per se. >> Yeah. >> You're looking for efficiencies. Alright so, Diletta, I'll give you the last word before we sign off. If you get called in to a new project, it's a CEO, they're stressed out, they know they have to do this. What do you tell them about digital transformation? How do you kind of help them break it down so it's not just this overwhelming, giant, goal on high? But actually something that they should get excited about, something they can have some success with and something that ultimately is going to be a really good thing. >> I think there is no one recipe. It's about figuring out where the company wants to go. What is the primary objective? Is it sales? Is it new market? Is it new product? And then kind of break it down in a tangible chunck and it kind of makes sense to them. But you got to go for the first priority item. This year I'm sure we'll be able to articulate very well. >> Yes, get that quick win. Well Diletta, thanks for spending a few minutes with us. And good luck on transforming everybody. (laughs) >> Thank you. >> Alright, she's Diletta, I'm Jeff. You're watching theCUBE, from SnapLogic headquarters in San Mateo, California. Thanks for watching. (bright music)