>> Narrator: From around the globe, it's theCUBE. With digital coverage of IBM Think 2021. Brought to you by IBM. >> Hello, welcome back to theCUBE's coverage of IBM Think virtual 2021. I'm John Furrier, your host of theCUBE. We've got three great guests here to talk about IBM Cloud Satellite and AI operations. Laura Guio, GM of Global Cisco Alliance. Matthew Angelstad, IBM Partner, Lead Client Partner for Canada, Financial Services. And Kuberan Kandasamy, VP of Personal Insurance at Economical Insurance. Folks, thanks for coming on theCUBE, this great panel on Cloud Satellite and AI ops. Thanks for joining me. >> Thank you, John. >> Thank you. >> Thank you, John, good to see you. >> Well, first, let's start with you. There's the General Manager for the IBM-Cisco strategic partnership. Tell us more about the relationship as cloud has become hybrid and it's pretty much determined that's the standard and multicloud is right around the corner. The programmability of the infrastructure is critical. And so, obviously you can see the modern applications are doing that. Take us through the IBM-Cisco strategic partnership. >> Absolutely, so John, as you know, and we've talked in the past, it's a 25-year relationship between IBM and Cisco, long-standing. Now, if you look at Cisco in the past, they've really been known as a networking and hardware company. But with the evolution of Cisco and how they're changing, they're really switching to be more around a supporting technology and in the services and software areas. With that change coupled with Kyndryl, our spin-off of what we were previously calling NewCo, we have an opportunity now to refocus all of the work that we're doing as IBM and Cisco going forward. You couple that with the Red Hat acquisition that we did almost two years ago, we've got a three-way partnership here that's really bringing a lot of value to the marketplace. Now, when you look at that from a hybrid cloud perspective, we announced our Satellite product, which is built on top of Cisco technology with IBM in that as well. And then really taking the security elements of what Cisco does and bringing all of this into the fold around that hybrid cloud solution. So, we're super excited about this. >> Real quick while I have you, you brought up a couple of key points. I just want to get to, I know we're going to get to it later, but the operating model has shifted. You mentioned with the NewCo and these relationships, ecosystem relationships and network effect, not just like packets, but like businesses and APIs are critical. This new cloud operating model is really the center of that equation. How does that relate into all that? >> So, you know, these operating models and how we're going to market here is changing dramatically. And you take what Cisco's doing, and you know, we've got a client here with us today, Kuberan who's going to talk about what they're doing with some of this technology. But really taking that at the core of how do you bring value at the client. What are they doing to get that hybrid cloud solution put into place? And then what are all those surrounding elements around software, managing the ops and things that we need? This is where IBM and Cisco couple together, really great value. >> Kuberan, you got teed up beautifully there. So, I want to go to you and then I'll go to Matthew after. But, okay, tell us more about this IBM-Cisco dynamic. You guys are a hot growth company doing very well and continuing to grow. And sure, post-pandemic is looking good too. So, take us through why you decided to engage IBM and Cisco. >> Sure. Sure, John, thank you. You know, to appreciate how we got here and why we asked IBM and Cisco to help us, let me first start by providing some background. Our journey started back in 2016 when we launched Sonnet, an MVP. Sonnet is our fully automated, direct-to-customer digital channel, where customers can quote and buy home and auto policies online without the need to engage anyone at Economical. Then in 2018, we launched Vyne, another MVP. Vyne is our simplified self-serve and digitized broker channel, where our broker partners can quote and buy home and auto insurance policies for their customers, again, without the need to engage anyone at Economical. Both Sonnet and Vyne have won awards for innovation and both have been industry disruptors. You know, after launch, we heightened our focus on enhancing business functionality and user experiences. Given that we had started with MVPs, it made sense for us to put a lot of emphasis on enhancements initially. And, you know, we maintain the platform level monitoring capabilities at a macro level. And the way we did the enhancements where we stood up agile pods, you know, focused on very specific business mandate. This approach delivered desired results for our business, but as our excitement grew for our upcoming IPO and our business started ramping up their growth plans, we needed to increase our focus on fine-tuning key components, which included enhancing our focus on stability and predictability for our Sonnet and Vyne platforms. And we needed the ability to look deeper and get into the micro level, so that we can monitor the pulse of, you know, every component of our user's journey across both Sonnet and Vyne, and we needed help with this. And this is where we engaged IBM and Cisco to help us through this journey. >> On that vision real quick. How does the AI fit in? More on the automation side or on the app side? I mean, I can imagine with that growth in the IPO, you think in automation, I'm assuming, can you elaborate quickly? >> Absolutely. So, I mean, if you think about it, it's a lot of data that we get, like it's all digitized, so we have a lot of data in there. And this is where, you know, the ability to be able to actually mine that data and actually be taking proactive steps in terms of predicting, having predictability and all that, that's where the AI ops comes in. But that's part of our journey through this. >> Yeah, it's good. I mean, the theme here is transformation is the innovation at scale. Matthew, you lead the Financial Services division in Canada. What are you seeing as the hot topics with your clients and how are you responding? How is IBM participating? >> Yeah, absolutely. And Kuberan was touching on this from Economical's perspective. They already have two leading digital solutions in market with Sonnet on the retail customer side in Vyne with their broker network. But what we're seeing even more so in the past year so of the pandemic is a dramatic acceleration of that end-to-end digital experience. So, our clients and their customers are expecting digital native solutions that are contextually personalized, highly secure and always available or extremely resilient, right? That obviously plays into IBM's capabilities and our joint capabilities with our partner ecosystem such as Cisco AppDynamics around hybrid, multicloud and AI. >> So, if you don't mind, if you don't mind following up on that AppDynamics point. Can you tell me a little bit more about how that solution played out and how that evolved? >> Yeah, absolutely. So, first off, this was based, again, on our long-standing relationship with Cisco AppDynamics that Laura was speaking about. And then the unique to what Kuberan in Economical was seeking of stitching together the data footprint across the infrastructure architecture but leveraging data in a business context. And I think that is the unique value that AppDynamics brings to this scenario here, is a market-leading solution that does bring together those multiple data sets but contextualizes them in a business context. So, you can understand from a user perspective that end-to-end journey right from initiation in the application, all the way through the technical infrastructure. And it becomes very preventative in terms of identifying and resolving potential issues before they even occur. >> So, AppD and these IBM services work well together right there. That's your key point, right? That's. >> Absolutely, and that's, the point is bringing together the best combination of solutions and services on behalf of our customer set. And this where AppDynamics and IBM and our other partners work incredibly well together. >> Well, we'll talk about the dynamics again. This is, again, this highlights the point of the better together combination here with the Cisco relationship and the IBM evolution you mentioned. What can other clients expect? I mean, this is going to be the playbook. (laughs) I mean, you got the Cloud Satellite. Take us through what this means. What does all this mean? >> Yeah, absolutely. I'll start, and maybe even Laura can add as needed. But from an IBM perspective, absolutely. We're going to work with our partner ecosystem in the hybrid multicloud world. So, we've really evolved whether it's IBM Cloud, AWS, as some of our clients, including Economical and others. Microsoft Azure, Google. It is about bringing those together regardless of strategic decisions made on cloud platform, but understanding how the applications play together. And again, stitching together the data across those application sets to drive value out of it. This is where we're really seeing the evolution of IBM and our partner ecosystem, and the evolution of IBM services as well. >> Awesome. >> Yeah. And if you really look at what Cisco's trying to do, they've declared they're going to be in this hybrid cloud space. They bring the elements to the solution when you look at networking. We look at some of the security. And then when we start looking at how this combines with edge technology, we really start getting combinations between the IBM technology, the Cisco technology and how that completes a picture in a solution for the client. >> I love the end-to-end story. I see hybrid as distributed computer in my mind and now you've got multicloud as subsystems and all is going to have to be operated together. And the software that makes that happen. And I can see tons of head room opportunity there. Kuberan, talk about what you guys are seeing as results now. Because this is where you start to see the conversation shift to. It's not just go to the cloud anymore, it's make the cloud operational on all environments. That's really what people want to see. Can you share what you're seeing as a result and where do you go from there? >> Yeah, absolutely. You know, what's awesome about all of this is first of all, in a very short time the team which really was composed of a cross-functional and a highly collaborative group of people, they've already delivered some key pieces that are giving us line of sight into what's going on for a business solution. And, you know, the implemented scope is already detecting symptoms and allowing us to be very proactive and it is also helping us to complete root cause analysis faster. It's helping us to reduce defect linkage through our quality assurance practices. So, you know, for us, as I mentioned earlier, this is a journey like, you know, unlike traditional approaches where implementations are driven by predetermined scope. We are changing the mindset, specifically because we're using a lot of telemetry and continuous discovery in helping transform how our platform is important. You know, it has become part of our philosophy where business and technology are now working closer together. And our vision is to navigate continuously towards having a highly automated monitoring solution that leverages cognitive insights and intelligence. So, you know, to be able to have a robust self-healing capability. And this is where it kind of ties with the whole cloud capability, because now you can actually enable the self-healing capabilities and with AppDynamics bringing in the dynamic capture of issues happening and things like that. And if you kind of step back a bit and if you think of this approach, this is no different than how we envisioned and how we implemented both Sonnet and Vyne, where it was a fully digitized end-to-end solution that provides services and value for, excuse me, for our customers. Right? So, hopefully that kind of stitches the picture for you. >> That's awesome, great insight. Laura, Matthew, Kuberan, thanks for coming on theCUBE. In the last minute that we have, let's go down the line. Laura, Matthew and Kuberan, we'll start with you guys. What's the bottom line for IBM and Cisco's relationship with the Cloud Satellite and AI. What should people walk away with? What's the bumper sticker? What's the summary? >> So, as IBM invest more and more in these strategic hybrid cloud solutions industry-focused, it's really bringing an industry-focused solution to clients without us having to reinvent that every time. And as you've heard from Kuberan here, I mean, we're bringing that value to our customers. >> All right. Matthew? >> Yeah, I'd just like to add, and this is a great example here of being able to co-innovate and collaborate with our partners and with our clients, Economical in this case, to evolve these solutions. And as Kuberan has stated, this is the first step in a journey here and there's lots of exciting things to come. >> Kuberan, take us home, final word. >> Thank you. What I would say is, what we've learned from this is really standing this stuff in more like a garage style kind of a situation where you can actually get something going rapid and you get business results and you start seeing ROI very quickly. So, that's the benefit I've seen. >> Awesome, great points. IBM and Cisco better together. This ecosystem, the co-creation, the new network effects is the new dynamic in the marketplace. This is the table stakes. Thanks for coming on, thanks for sharing the insights. Thanks for coming on theCUBE, appreciate it. >> Thank you. >> Thanks a lot, John. >> Okay, IBM Think 2021. I'm John Furrier with theCUBE. Thank you for watching. (cheerful music)

>>from around the globe. It's the >>cube >>With digital coverage of IBM think 2021 >>brought to you by IBM. Welcome back to the cubes coverage of IBM Think Virtual 2021. I'm john for your host of the cube. Got three great guests here talking about IBM cloud satellite and AI operations, Lori G O G M of Global SisQo Alliance, Matthew, Engelstad, IBM partner. Lead client partner for Canada financial services and cooper on Kent Asami VP of personal insurance. That economical insurance folks. Thanks for coming on the cube. This great panel on cloud satellite and Ai Ops. Thanks for joining me. >>Thank you. Thank you. Thank you john. Good to see you. >>Well, first let's start with you. There's a general manager for the IBM Cisco Strategic Partnership. Tell us more about the relationship as cloud has become hybrid. It's pretty much determined that's the standard and multi clouds right around the corner. The program ability of the infrastructure is critical and so obviously you can see the modern applications are doing that take us through the IBM Cisco strategic partnership. >>Mhm. Absolutely. So john as you know, and we've talked in the past, it's a 25 year relationship between IBM and Cisco longstanding. Now if you look at Cisco in the past, they've really been known as a networking and hardware company, but with the evolution of Cisco and how they're changing, they're really switching to be more around supporting technology and in the services and software areas. With that change coupled with Kendrell, our spin off of what we were previously calling Newco, we have an opportunity now to refocus all of the work that we're doing as IBM and Cisco going forward. You couple that with the red hat acquisition that we did almost two years ago, we've got a three way partnership here that's really bringing a lot of value to the marketplace. Now, when you look at that from a hybrid cloud perspective, we announced our satellite product which is built on top of Cisco technology with IBM in that as well. And then really taking the security elements of what Cisco does and bringing all this into the fold around that hybrid cloud solution. So we're super excited about this >>real quick. Why have you brought up a couple key points? I just want to get too. I know we're gonna get to it later, but the operating model has shifted, you mentioned with the new co and these relationships, ecosystem relationships and network effect, not just like packets, but like businesses and mps are critical. This new cloud operating model is really a center of of that. That that equation, how does that relate into all that? >>So, the, you know, these operating models and how we're going to market here is changing dramatically and you take what Cisco is doing and you know, we've got a client here with us Today programme who's going to talk about what they're doing with some of this technology. But really taking that at the core of how do you bring value at the client, what are they doing to get that hybrid cloud solution put into place And then what are all those surrounding elements around software managing the apps and things that we need? This is where IBM and Cisco coupled together. Really bring value >>cooper. You got teed up beautifully there so I want to go to you then go to Matthew after but okay, tell us more about this IBM. Cisco dynamic. You guys are hot growth company um doing very well and continuing to grow and sure, post pandemic. It's looking good too. So take us through why you decided to engage IBM and Cisco? >>Sure, sure john thank you. Um you know, to appreciate how we got here and why? We asked IBM and Cisco to help us. Let me first start by providing some background. Our journey started back in 2016 when we launched Sonnet and M. V. P. Uh Sonnet is a fully automated director customer digital channel where customers can quote and buy home and all of his online without the need to engage anyone at economical. Then in 2018, we launched by another m. v. p. Wine is our simplified self serve and digitized broker channel where broker partners can quote and buy home and auto insurance policies for their customers again, without the need to engage anyone at economical. Both uh some wine have won awards for innovation and both have been industry disruptors. You know, after launch we heightened our focus on enhancing business functionality and user experiences, given that we had started with MVPs, it made sense for us to put a lot of emphasis on enhancements initially. And you know, we maintained platform level monitoring capabilities at a macro macro level. We we and and the way we did the enhancement where we stood up agile pods, you know, focused on very specific business mandate. This approach delivered design results for our business. But as our excitement grew for our upcoming I. P. O. And our business started ramping up their growth plans. We needed to increase our focus on fine tuning key components which included enhancing our focus on stability and predictability for our sonnet and wine platforms. And we needed the ability to look deeper and get into the micro level so that we can monitor the pulse of uh you know, every component of our users journey uh across both solid and wine. And we need to help with this. And this is where we engage idea Francisco to help us through this journey >>on that vision real quick. How does the A. I. Fit in more on the automation side or on the upside? I mean I can imagine what that growth in the I. P. O. You're thinking automation I'm assuming. Can you elaborate quickly? >>Absolutely. So I mean if you think about it, it's a lot of data that we get like it's all digitized so we have a lot of data in there and this is where you know the ability to be able to actually mined that data and actually be taking proactive steps in terms of predicting having predictability and all that. That's where the Ai Ops comes in but that's part of our journey through this. >>Yeah that's good. I mean the theme here is transformation is the innovation at scale. Matthew, you lead the financial services division in Canada. What are you seeing as the hot topics uh with your clients and how are you responding? House IBM participating? >>Yeah, absolutely. And cooper and was touching on on this from economical perspective, they already have two leading digital solutions in market with Sonnet on the retail customer side in vine with their broker network. But what we're seeing even more so in the past year or so of the pandemic is a dramatic acceleration of that and then digital experience. So our clients and their customers are expecting digital native solutions that are contextually personalized, highly secure and always available or extremely resilient. Right? That obviously plays into IBM's capabilities and our joint capabilities with our partner ecosystem such as Cisco appdynamics around high hybrid, multi cloud and AI. >>So, if you don't mind if I don't mind following up on that app dynamics point, um can you tell me a little bit more about how that solution played out and how that involved? >>Yeah, absolutely. So first off this was based again on our longstanding relationship with Cisco appdynamics that laura was speaking about and then unique to what cooper and and economical was seeking. Of stitching together the data footprint across the infrastructure architecture. But leveraging data in a business context. And I think that is the unique value that app dynamics brings to this scenario here is a market leading solution that does bring together those multiple datasets, but contextual ISeS them in a business context. So you can understand from a user perspective that end to end journey right from initiation in the application all the way through the technical infrastructure and it becomes very preventative uh in terms of identifying and resolving potential issues before they even occur. >>So empty and this IBM services worked well together right there. That's your key point, right? That's >>absolutely. And that's the point is bringing to bear the best combination of, of solutions and services on behalf of our customers set. And this is where appdynamics and IBM uh, and our other partners work incredibly well together. >>We'll talk about the dynamics. Again, this is again, this highlights the point of the better together combination here with the Cisco relationship and the IBM evolution you mentioned, um what can other clients expect? I mean, this is gonna be the playbook. I mean you got the cloud satellite take us through what this means. What does all this mean? >>Yeah, absolutely. I'll start and maybe even laura can can add as as needed, but from an IBM perspective, absolutely. We're gonna work with our partner ecosystem um in the hybrid, multi cloud world. So uh we've really evolved whether it's IBM cloud aws as some of our clients, including economical and others Microsoft, Azure, um google. Uh It is about bringing those together regardless of strategic decisions made on cloud platform, but understanding how the applications play together and again, stitching together the data across those applications sets to drive value out of it. Uh This is where we're really seeing the evolution of IBM in our partner ecosystem and the evolution of IBM services as well. Awesome. >>Yeah. And if you really look at what Cisco is trying to do, um they've declared they're going to be in this hybrid cloud space. They bring elements to the solution. When you look at networking we look at some of the security and then when we start looking at how this combines with edge technology, we really start getting combinations between the IBM technology, the Cisco technology and how that completes a picture in a solution for a client. >>I love the end to end story, actually hybrids, distributed computer in my mind and now you've got multi club, it's just subsystems and all gonna have to be operated together and the software all makes that happen. I could see tons of headroom opportunity there cooper and talk about what you guys are seeing as results now because this is where you start to see uh the conversation shift too. It's not just go to the cloud anymore, it's make the cloud operational on all environments. That's really people want to see, can you share what you're seeing as a result? And where do you go from there? >>Yeah, absolutely. Um you know what's awesome about all of this is first of all, in a very short time, the team which really was composed of a cross functional and the highly collaborative group of people, uh they've already delivered some key pieces that are giving us line aside into what's going on for our business solution and you know, the implemented uh scope is already detecting symptoms and allowing us to be very proactive and it is also helping us to complete root cause analysis faster, helping us reduce defect linkage through a quality assurance practices. So, you know, for us, as I mentioned earlier, this is a journey like, you know, unlike traditional approaches where um implementations are driven by predetermined scope, we are changing the mindset specifically because we're using a lot of telemetry and continuous discovery in helping transform how our platform is important. You know, it has become part of our philosophy where business and technology are now working closer together and our vision is to navigate yeah continuously towards having a highly automated monitoring solution that leverages cognitive insights and intelligence. So you know to be able to have a robust self healing capability and this is where it kind of ties with the whole cloud capability because now you can actually enable the self self healing capabilities and with afghan um is bringing in the uh uh dynamic capture of issues happening and things like that. And if you kind of step back a bit and if you think of this approach, this is no different than how we envisioned and how we implemented both Summit and Wine where it was a fully digitized end to end solution that provides services and value for excuse me for our customers. Right? So hopefully that changes the picture. >>That's awesome. Great insight, Laura Matthew Gordon? Thanks for coming on the cube in the last minute that we have, let's go down the line laura Matthew cooper on. We'll start with you guys. What's the bottom line for IBM and Cisco relationship with the cloud satellite and a I guess what should people walk away with? What's the bumper sticker? What's the summary? >>So as IBM invest more and more in these strategic cloud hybrid cloud solutions industry focused, it's really bringing an industry focused solution to clients without us having to reinvent that every time. And as you heard from from Kobrin here, I mean we're bringing that value to our customers. >>All right Matthew, >>yeah, I just like to add and this is a great example here of being able to co innovate and collaborate with our partners and with our clients, economical in this case to evolve these solutions And as cooper and had stated, uh, this is the first step in a journey here and there's lots of exciting things to come, >>come on, take us home. Final word. >>Thank you. What I would say is what we've learned from. This is really uh, standing this up more like a garage style kind of situation where you can actually get something going rapid and you get business results and you start seeing RY very quickly. So that's the benefit. I've >>seen some great points. IBM and Cisco better together this ecosystem. The co creation, the new network effects is the new dynamic in the marketplace. This is the table stakes. Thanks for coming on. Thanks for sharing the insight. Thanks for coming. Thank you. Appreciate it. >>Thank you. Thanks a lot john >>Okay. IBM think 2021. I'm John for with the Cube. Thank you for watching. >>Mm

>> Announcer: From the SiliconANGLE Media office in Boston, Massachusetts, it's theCube! (bright music) Now here's your host, Dave Vellante. >> Hi everybody, welcome to this special presentation in the Marlborough offices of theCube. My name is Dave Vellante, and I'm here with a friend, a colleague, a mentor of mine, David Moschella who is an author and a Fellow at Leading Edge Forum. Dave, thanks for coming in. It's great to see you. >> Hey, great to see you again. So we're going to talk about your new book, Seeing Digital: A Visual Guide to Industries, Organizations, and Careers of the 2020s. I got it here on my laptop. Got it off of Amazon, so check it out. We're going to be unpacking what's in there today. This is your third book I believe, right? Waves of Power and... >> David: Customer-Driven IT. >> Customer-Driven IT which was under the '03 timeframe coming out of the dot-com, and to me this is your most significant work, so congratulations on that. >> Well, thank you. >> Dave: I know how much work goes into it. >> You bet. >> So what was the motivation for writing this book? >> Well it's a funny thing when books are a lot of work, and during those times you wind up asking yourself why am I (laughing) doing this because they put in so much time. But for the last seven or eight years our group, the Leading Edge Forum, we've been doing a lot of work mostly for large organizations and our clients told us that the work we've been doing in consumerization, in Cloud, in disruption, in machine intelligence was really relevant to not just them but to their wider audiences of their partners, their customers, their employees. And so people are asking can we get this to a wider audience, and really that is what the book is trying to do. >> Yeah, you guys have done some great work. I know when I can get my hands on it I consume it. For those of you who don't know, Dave originally came up with the theory of disintegration to kind of explain the shift from centralized mainframe era to the sort of open distributed competition along different lines which really defined the Wintel era. So that was kind of your work really explaining industry shifts in a way that helped people and executives really understand that. And then the nice thing about this book is you're kind of open-sourcing a decade's worth of research that yourself and your colleagues have done. So talk about the central premise of the book. We're entering a new era. We're sort of exiting the Cloud, Web 2.0 era. We're still trying to figure out what to call this. But what's the central premise of the book? >> Yeah, the central premise is that the technologies of the 2020s will indeed define a new era, and the IT era industry just evolves. We had the mainframe era, the mini era, the PC and the Internet era, the mobility era, and now we're going in this era of intelligence and automation and blockchains and speech and things that are just a entire new layer of intelligence, and that that layer to us is actually more the powerful than any of the previous layers we've seen. If you think back, the first Web was founded around technologies like search and email and surfing the Web, quite simple technologies and created tremendous companies. And then the more recently we have sort of the social era for Facebook and Salesforce. And all these companies, they sort of took advantage of the Cloud. But again, the technologies are relatively simple there. Now we're really looking at a whole wave of just fundamentally powerful technology and so trying to anticipate what that's going to mean. >> So going from sort of private networks to sort of public networks to a Cloud of remote services to now this set of interrelated digital services that are highly accessible and essentially ubiquitous is what you put forth in the book, right? >> Yeah, and we put a lot of emphasis on words. Why do words change? We had an Internet that connected computers and a Web that sort of connected pages and documents and URLs. And then we started talking about Cloud of stuff out there somewhere in cyberspace. But when we look at the world that's coming and we use those words, pervasive, embedded, aware, autonomous, these aren't words that are really associated with a Cloud. And Cloud is just a metaphor, that word, and so we're quite sure that at some point a different word will emerge because we've always had a different word for every era of change and we're going into one of those eras now. >> So a lot of people have questions about we go to these conferences and everybody talks about digital disruption and digital transformation, and it's kind of frankly lightweight a lot of times. It doesn't have a lot of substance to it. But you point out in the book that CEOs are asking the question, "How do I get digital right?" They understand that something's happening, something's changing. They don't want to get disrupted, but what are some of the questions that you get from some of your clients? >> Yeah, that first question, are we getting digital right sort of leads to almost everything. Companies look at the way that a Netflix or Amazon operates, and then they look at themselves and they see the vast difference there. And they ask themselves, "How can we be more like them? "How can we be that vast, that innovative, that efficient, "that level of simple intuitive customer service?" And one of the ways we try to define it for our clients is how do they become a digital first organization where their digital systems are their face to the marketplace? And most CEOs know that their own firm doesn't operate that way. And probably the most obvious way of seeing that is so many companies now feeling the need to appoint a Chief Digital Officer because they need to give that task to someone, and CDOs are no panacea but they speak to this need that so many companies feel now of really getting it right and having a leadership team in place that they have confidence in. And it's very hard work, and a lot of our clients, they still struggle with it. >> One of the other questions you ask in the book that is very relevant to our audience given that we have a big presence in Silicon Valley is can Silicon Valley pull off a dual disruption agenda? What do you mean by that? >> Yeah, if you look at the Valley historically you could see them essentially as arms merchants. They were selling their products and services to whoever wanted to buy them, and companies would use them as they saw fit. But today in addition to doing that they are also what we say is they're an invading army, and they are increasingly competing with the very customers they've traditionally supplied, and of course Amazon being perhaps the best example of that. So many companies dependent on AWS as a platform, but there's Amazon trying to go after them in health care or retail or grocery stores or whatever business they're in. Yeah, content, every business under the sun. And so they're wearing these two dual disruptions hats. The technologies of our time are very disruptive, machine intelligence, blockchains, virtual reality, all these things have disruptive technology. But that second disruptive agenda of how do you change insurance, how do you change health care, how do change the car industry, that's what we mean, those two different types of disruptions. And they're pursuing both at the same time. >> And because it's digital and it's data, that possibility now exists that a company, a technology company can traverse industries which historically haven't been able to be penetrated, right? >> Yeah, absolutely, in our view every industry is going to be transformed by data one way or another. Whether it is disrupted or not is a second question, but the industry'll be very different when all of these technologies come into play, and the tech companies feel like they have the expertise and the vision of it. But they also have the money, and they're going to bet heavily to pursue these areas to continue their growth agenda. >> So one of the other questions of course that IT people ask is what does it mean for my job, and maybe we can, if we have time, we can talk about that. But you answer many of these questions with a conceptual framework that you call the Matrix which is a very powerful, you said words matter, a very powerful concept. Explain the Matrix. >> Okay, yeah. If we start and go back they have this idea that every generation of technology has its own words, Internet, Web, Cloud, and now we're going to a new era, so there will be a new word. And so we use the word Matrix as our view of that, and we chose it for two reasons. Obviously there's the movie which had its machine intelligence and virtual worlds and all of that. But the real reason we chose it is this concept that a matrix as in matrix mathematics is a structure that has rows and columns. And rows and columns is sort of the fundamental dynamic of what's going on in the tech sector today, that traditionally every industry had its own sort of vertical stack of capabilities that it did and it was sort of top to bottom silo. But today those horizontal platforms, the PayPals, the AWSs, the Facebooks, they run this, Salesforce, all these horizontal services that cut across those firms. And so increasingly every industry is leveraging a common digital infrastructure, and that tension between the traditional vertical stacks and these enormously powerful horizontal technology firms is really the structural dynamic that's in play right now. >> And at the top of that Matrix you have this sort of intelligence and automation layer which is this new layer. You don't like the term artificial intelligence. You make the point in the book there's nothing really artificial about it. You use machine intelligence. But that's that top layer that you see powering the next decade. >> Absolutely, if you look at the vision that everybody tends to have, autonomous cars, personalized health care, blockchain-based accounting, digital cash, virtual education, brain implants for the media, every one of those is essentially dependent on a layer of intelligence, automation, and data that is being built right now. And so just as previous layers of technology, the Web enabled a Google or an Amazon, the Cloud enabled AWS or Salesforce, this new layer enables companies to pursue that next layer of capabilities out there to build that sort of intelligent societal infrastructure of the 2020s which will be vastly different than where we are today. >> Will the adoption of the Matrix, in your opinion, occur faster because essentially it's built on the Internet and we have the Internet, i.e. faster than say the Internet or maybe some other major innovations, or is it going to take time for a lot of reasons? >> I think the speed is actually a really interesting question because the technology of the 2020s are extremely powerful, but most of them are not going to be immediate hits. And if you look back, say, to search, when search came out it was very powerful and you could scale it massively quickly. You look at machine learning, you look at blockchains, you look at virtual realities, you look at algorithms, speech and these areas, they're tremendously powerful. But there's no scenario where those things happen overnight. And so we do not see an accelerating pace of change. In fact it might be people often overestimate the speed of change in our business and consistently do that. But what we see is a sort of fundamental transformation over time, and that's why we put a lot of emphasis on the 2020s because we do not see two years from now this stuff all being in place. >> And you have some good examples in the book going back to the early days of even telephony. So it's worth checking that out. I want to talk about, bring it back to data, Amazon, Google, Apple, Microsoft, and Facebook, top five companies, public companies in terms of market cap. Actually it's not true after the Facebook fake news thing. I mean Berkshire Hathaway is slightly past Facebook. >> It'll be back (laughs). But I agree, it'll be back, but the key point there is these companies are different, they've got data at their core. When you compare that to other companies even financial services industry companies that are really data companies but the data's very bespoken, it's in silos. Can those companies, those incumbent companies, can they close that gap? Maybe you could talk about that a little bit. >> Yeah, we do a lot of work in the area of machine intelligence, artificial, whatever you want to call it. And one of the things you see immediately is this ridiculously large gap between what these leading companies do versus most traditional firms because of the talent, the data, the business model, all the things they have. So you have this widening gap there. And so the big question is is that going to widen or is it going to continue, will it narrow? And I think that the scenario for narrowing it I think is a fairly good one. And the message we say to a lot of our clients is that you will wind up buying a lot more machine intelligence than you will build because these companies will bring it to you. Machine intelligence will be in AWS. It'll be in Azure. It'll be in Salesforce. It'll be in your devices. It'll be in your user interfaces. It'll be in the speech systems. So the supply-side innovations that are happening in the giants will be sold to the incumbents, and therefore there will be a natural improvement in today's situation where a lot of incumbents are sort of basically trying to build their own stuff internally, and they're having some successes and some not. But that's a harder challenge. But the supply side will bring intelligence to the market in a quite powerful way and fairly soon. >> Won't those incumbents, though, have to sort of reorganize in a way around those new innovations given that they've got processes and procedures that are so fossilized with their existing businesses? >> Absolutely, and the word digital transformation is thrown around everywhere. But if it means anything it is having an organization that is aligned with the way technology works. And a good example of that is when you use Netflix today there's no separate sales experience, market experience, customer service, it's just one system and you have one team that builds those systems. In a typical corporation of course you have the sales organization and the marketing organization and the IT organization and the customer service organization. And those silos is not the way to build these systems. So the message we send to our clients if you really want to transform yourself you have to have more of this team approach that is more like the way the tech players do it. And that these traditional boundaries essentially go away when you go in the digital world where the customer experience is all those things at the same time. >> So if I'm hearing you correctly it's sort of a natural progression of how they're going to be doing business and the services that they're going to be procuring, but there's probably other approaches. Maybe it's force, but you're seeing maybe M&A or you're seeing joint ventures. Do you see those things as accelerating or precipitating the transformation or do you think it's futile and it really has to be led from the top and at the core? >> It's one of the toughest issues out there. And the reason people talk about transformation is because they see the need. But the difficulty is enormous. Most companies would say this is a three- or four-year process to make significant change, and this in a marketplace that changes every few months. So incumbent firms, they see where they want to go and it's very hard, and this is why this whole thing of getting digital right is so important, that people need to commit to significant change programs, and we're seeing it. And my parent company, DXC, we do a lot of this with clients and they want to embark on this program and they need people who can help them do it. And so leading a transformation agenda in most firms is really what digital leadership is these days and who's capable of doing that which requires tremendous skills in soft skills and hard skills to do right. >> Let's talk about industries and industry disruption. When you looked at the early disrupted industries whether it was publishing, advertising, music, one maybe had the tendency to think it was a bits versus atoms thing, but you point out in the book it's really not the case because you look at taxis, you look at hotels. Those are physical businesses and they've been disrupted quite substantially. Maybe you could give us some thoughts and insight there, particularly with regard to things like health care, financial services which haven't been disrupted. >> And there's a huge part of the work that I've been doing for years. And as you say, if you look at the industries that actually have been disrupted, they're all relatively low-security, low-risk businesses, music, advertising, taxis, retail. All these businesses have had tremendous changes. But the ones that haven't are all the ones where the stakes are higher, banking, insurance, health care, aerospace, defense. They've been hardly disrupted at all. And so you have this split between the low-risk industries that have changed and the high-risk ones that haven't. But what's interesting to me about that is that these technologies of the 2020s are aimed almost directly at those high-risk industries. So machine intelligence is aimed directly at health care and autonomous systems is aimed directly at defense and blockchains are aimed directly at banking and insurance. And so the technologies of the past if you look at Internet and the Web and the Cloud eras, they were not aimed at these industries. But today's are, so you now have at least a highly plausible scenario where those industries might change too. >> When to talk to companies in those industries that haven't been disrupted do you get a sense of complacency that ah well, we haven't been disrupted, We're going to wait and see, or do you see a sense of urgency? >> No, complacency is baked in for years of people saying, "We've heard all this before. "We're doing just fine. "Maybe it's their industry but not ours." >> Dave: You don't buy it. >> Or the main one is, "I'll be (laughing) retired "before any of this stuff matters for the senior execs." And the thing about all four of those is they're probably true. They have heard all this before because there was a lot of excessive hype. Many of them are doing just fine. Well the one about the other industries is a wrong one, but and many of them will be retired before the things really bite if executive's in their late in their career. So the inertia and the complacency is an enormous issue in most traditional companies. >> So let's do a little lightning round if we can. Oh, actually I just want to make a point. In the book you lay out disruption scenarios for each industry which is really worthwhile. We don't have time to go through that here, but let's do a little lightning round here, some of the questions that you ask that I'd love to get your opinion on of which of course there are no right answers but we can maybe frame it. Let's start with retail. Do you think large retail stores are going to disappear? >> Well the first I say is that disruption is never total. There are still bookstores, there are still newspapers, there are still vinyl records. >> Dave: Mainframes, saving IBM. >> (laughing) Indeed, indeed, but real disruption means that the center of gravity is just totally moved on. And when you look at retail from that point of view, absolutely. And will large ones totally disappear? No, but Wal-Mart is teetering. If you go into a large, Best Buy, a company that strong hero locally, you go into there, there's hardly anybody in there. And so those stores are in tremendous trouble. The grocery stores, the clothing stores, they'll have probably a better future, but by and large they will shrink, and the nature of malls will change quite substantially going forward. People are going to have to find other uses for those spaces, and that's actually going on right now. >> It's funny, it is, and certainly some of the more remote malls you find that they're waning. But then some of the higher-end malls, they seem, you can't find a parking space. What's your sense of that, that that's still inevitable or it's because it's more clothing or maybe jewelry? >> And there's some parts of America that have a lot of money, and therefore they fill up malls. But I think if you look at what's going on in the malls, though, they're becoming more like indoor cities full of restaurants and health clubs and movie theaters and sometimes even college courses and health care centers, daycare centers, air conditioning. Think of them as an indoor environment where you might have the traditional anchor stores but they're less necessary over time. Quite a bit less necessary. >> You mentioned college courses. Education's something we haven't talked about which is again ripe for disruption. Machines, will they make better diagnoses than doctors? >> Yeah, you see this already in image processing, anything that has to do with an image, X-rays and mammograms, cancers, anything, tissues. The machine learning progress there has been tremendous and to the point where schools now should be seriously thinking about how many radiologists do they really want to train because those people are not going to be needed as much. However they're still part of the system. They approve things, but the work itself is increasingly done by machines. And it means increasingly that it's not just done by machine, it's done by one machine somewhere else rather than every hospital setting up its own operations to do this stuff. And health care costs are crazy high in every country in the world, especially here in America. But if you're ever going to crack those costs you have to get some sort of scale, and these machine learning-based systems are the way to do it. And so it is to me not just a question of should this happen, it's that this is so what needs to happen. It's really the only sort of economic path that might work. >> You make the point that health care in particular is really ripe for disruption of all industries. The next one's really interesting to me. You talked about blockchain being sort of aimed at banking and financial services and as an industry that has not really yet been disrupted. But do you think banks will lose control of the payment systems? >> Banks have been incredibly good at keeping control through cash and paper checks and credit cards and ATM machines. They've been really good about that and perhaps they will ride this one too. But you can see countries are clearly going to, they're getting rid of cash. They're going to digital currencies. There's the need to be able to send money around as simply as we send emails around, and the banking industry is not really supporting (laughing) those changes right now. So they are at risk, but they are very good at co-opting stuff, and I wouldn't count them out. >> And the government really wants to get rid of paper money. You've made that point, and the government and the financial services-- >> Work together, and yeah. >> They always work together, they have a lot to lose. >> Yeah, and way back when Satoshi Nakamoto, whoever he or she is or it, they, whatever it is, said that bitcoin would either be very, very big or it would vanish altogether. And I think that statement is still true, and we're still in that middle world. But if bitcoin vanishes, something doing a similar thing will emerge because the concepts and the capabilities there are really what people want. >> Yeah, the killer app for blockchain is for right now it's money. (laughing) >> Yeah, it's speculation, (laughing) I mean it's, (laughing) and no one uses it to buy anything. (Dave laughing) That was the original bitcoin vision of using it to go buy pizzas and coffees. It's become gold, it's digital gold. I mean it's all it is. >> The value store... >> It's digital gold that is very good in the dark Web. >> And if anybody does transact in bitcoin they immediately convert it to fiat currency. (laughing) >> Perhaps someday we'll learn that the Russians actually built bitcoin (Dave laughing) and it's Putin's in control. (David and Dave laughing) Stranger things have happened. >> It's possible. >> Hey, why keep it anonymous? >> They are the masters of the dark Web. (Dave laughing) >> Could be Russians, could be a woman. >> David: Right, right, nobody has any idea. >> Robotic process automation is really interesting with software robots, robots. Do you see that reversing sort of offshoring, offshore manufacturing and other services? >> Not really, I think in general people looked at robotics, they looked at 3D printing and said, "Maybe we can bring all this stuff back home." But the reality is that China uses robots and 3D printing too and they're really good at it. If anything's going to bring manufacturing back home it's much more political pressures, trade strategies, and all the stuff you see going on right now because we do have crazy imbalances in the world that probably will have to change. And as Ben Stein the economist once said, "Well if something can't go on forever, it won't." And I think there will be some reversals, but I think they'll be less about technology than they will be about political pressures and trade agreements and those sort of changes. >> Because the technology's widely accessible. So how far do you think we can take machine intelligence and how far should we take machine intelligence? >> Well I make a distinction right now that I think machine intelligence for particular purposes is tremendous if you want to recognize faces or eventually talk to something or have it read something or recognize an activity or read images and do all the things it's doing, it's very good. When they talk about a more general-wise machine intelligence it's actually really poor. But to me that's not that important. And one way we look at machine intelligence, it's almost like the app industry. There'll be an app for that, there'll be a machine learning algorithm for almost every little thing that we do that involves data. And those areas will thrive mightily. And then sort of the bottom line we try to at that as who's got the best data? Facebook is good at facial recognitions because it's got the faces, and Google's good at language translation because it has the books and language pairs better than anybody else. And so if you follow the data and where there's good data machine learning will thrive. And where there isn't it won't. >> The book is called Seeing Digital: A Visual Guide to the Industries, Organizations, and Careers of the 2020s, and part of that visual guide is every single page actually has a graphic. So really a new concept that you've... >> Yeah, and thanks for bringing that in. And the reason the book is called Seeing Digital is that the book itself is a visual book, that every page has a graphic, an image, a picture, and explains itself below. And just in our own work with our own clients people tell us it's just a more impactful way of reading. So it's a different format. It's great in the ebook format because you can use colors, you can do lots of things that the printed world doesn't do so well. And so we tried to take advantage of modern technologies to bring a different sort of book to the market. >> That's great. So Google it and you'll find it easily. Dave, again, congratulations. Thanks so much for coming on theCube. >> David: Thank you, a pleasure. >> All right, and thank you for watching, everybody. We'll see you next time. (bright music)