>>Hello, everyone. Welcome to the cubes presentation of the 80, but startup showcases MarTech is the focus. And this is all about the emerging cloud scale customer experience. This is season two, episode three of the ongoing series covering the exciting, fast growing startups from the cloud AWS ecosystem to talk about the future and what's available now, where are the actions? I'm your host John fur. Today. We joined by Cub alumni, Jerry Chen partner at Greylock ventures. Jerry. Great to see you. Thanks for coming on, >>John. Thanks for having me back. I appreciate you welcome there for season two. Uh, as a, as a guest star, >><laugh>, you know, Hey, you know, season two, it's not a one and done it's continued coverage. We, we got the episodic, uh, cube flicks model going >>Here. Well, you know, congratulations, the, the coverage on this ecosystem around AWS has been impressive, right? I think you and I have talked a long time about AWS and the ecosystem building. It just continues to grow. And so the coverage you did last season, all the events of this season is, is pretty amazing from the data security to now marketing. So it's, it's great to >>Watch. And 12 years now, the cube been running. I remember 2013, when we first met you in the cube, we just left VMware just getting into the venture business. And we were just riffing the next 80. No one really kind of knew how big it would be. Um, but we were kinda riffing on. We kind of had a sense now it's happening. So now you start to see every vertical kind of explode with the right digital transformation and disruption where you see new incumbents. I mean, new Newton brands get replaced the incumbent old guard. And now in MarTech, it's ripe for, for disruption because web two has gone on to web 2.5, 3, 4, 5, um, cookies are going away. You've got more governance and privacy challenges. There's a slew of kind of ad tech baggage, but yet lots of new data opportunities. Jerry, this is a huge, uh, thing. What's your take on this whole MarTech cloud scale, uh, >>Market? I, I think, I think to your point, John, that first the trends are correct and the bad and the good or good old days, the battle days MarTech is really about your webpage. And then email right there. There's, there's the emails, the only channel and the webpage was only real estate and technology to care about fast forward, you know, 10 years you have webpages, mobile apps, VR experiences, car experiences, your, your, your Alexa home experiences. Let's not even get to web three web 18, whatever it is. Plus you got text messages, WhatsApp, messenger, email, still great, et cetera. So I think what we've seen is both, um, explosion and data, uh, explosion of channel. So sources of data have increases and the fruits of the data where you can reach your customers from text, email, phone calls, etcetera have exploded too. So the previous generation created big company responses, Equa, you know, that exact target that got acquired by Oracle or, or, um, Salesforce, and then companies like, um, you know, MailChimp that got acquired as well, but into it, you're seeing a new generation companies for this new stack. So I, I think it's exciting. >>Yeah. And you mentioned all those things about the different channels and stuff, but the key point is now the generation shifts going on, not just technical generation, uh, and platform and tools, it's the people they're younger. They don't do email. They have, you know, proton mail accounts, zillion Gmail accounts, just to get the freebie. Um, they're like, they're, they'll do subscriptions, but not a lot. So the generational piece on the human side is huge. Okay. And then you got the standards, bodies thrown away, things like cookies. Sure. So all this is makes it for a complicated, messy situation. Um, so out of this has to come a billion dollar startup in my mind, >>I, I think multiple billion dollars, but I think you're right in the sense that how we want engage with the company branch, either consumer brands or business brands, no one wants to pick a phone anymore. Right? Everybody wants to either chat or DM people on Twitter. So number one, the, the way we engage is different, both, um, where both, how like chat or phone, but where like mobile device, but also when it's the moment when we need to talk to a company or brand be it at the store, um, when I'm shopping in real life or in my car or at the airport, like we want to reach the brands, the brands wanna reach us at the point of decision, the point of support, the point of contact. And then you, you layer upon that the, the playing field, John of privacy security, right? All these data silos in the cloud, the, the, the, the game has changed and become even more complicated with the startup. So the startups are gonna win. Will do, you know, the collect, all the data, make us secure in private, but then reach your customers when and where they want and how they want it. >>So I gotta ask you, because you had a great podcast just this week, published and snowflake had their event going on the data cloud, there's a new kind of SAS platform vibe going on. You're starting to see it play out. Uh, and one of the things I, I noticed on your podcast with the president of Hashi Corp, who was on people should listen to that podcast. It's on gray matter, which is the Greylocks podcast, uh, plug for you guys. He mentioned he mentions the open source dynamic, right? Sure. And, and I like what he, things, he said, he said, software business has changed forever. It's my words. Now he said infrastructure, but I'm saying software in general, more broader infrastructure and software as a category is all open source. One game over no debate. Right. You agree? >>I, I think you said infrastructure specifically starts at open source, but I would say all open source is one more or less because open source is in every bit of software. Right? And so from your operating system to your car, to your mobile phone, open source, not necessarily as a business model or, or, or whatever, we can talk about that. But open source as a way to build software distribute, software consume software has one, right? It is everywhere. So regardless how you make money on it, how you build software, an open source community ha has >>One. Okay. So let's just agree. That's cool. I agree with that. Let's take it to the next level. I'm a company starting a company to sell to big companies who pay. I gotta have a proprietary advantage. There's gotta be a way. And there is, I know you've talked about it, but I have my opinion. There is needs to be a way to be proprietary in a way that allows for that growth, whether it's integration, it's not gonna be on software license or maybe support or new open source model. But how does startups in the MarTech this area in general, when they disrupt or change the category, they gotta get value creation going. What's your take on, on building. >>You can still build proprietary software on top of open source, right? So there's many companies out there, um, you know, in a company called rock set, they've heavily open source technology like Rock's DB under the hood, but they're running a cloud database. That's proprietary snowflake. You talk about them today. You know, it's not open source technology company, but they use open source software. I'm sure in the hoods, but then there's open source companies, data break. So let's not confus the two, you can still build proprietary software. There's just components of open source, wherever we go. So number one is you can still build proprietary IP. Number two, you can get proprietary data sources, right? So I think increasingly you're seeing companies fight. I call this systems intelligence, right, by getting proprietary data, to train your algorithms, to train your recommendations, to train your applications, you can still collect data, um, that other competitors don't have. >>And then it can use the data differently, right? The system of intelligence. And then when you apply the system intelligence to the end user, you can create value, right? And ultimately, especially marketing tech, the highest level, what we call the system of engagement, right? If, if the chat bot the mobile UI, the phone, the voice app, etcetera, if you own the system of engagement, be a slack, or be it, the operating system for a phone, you can also win. So still multiple levels to play John in multiple ways to build proprietary advantage. Um, just gotta own system record. Yeah. System intelligence, system engagement. Easy, right? Yeah. >>Oh, so easy. Well, the good news is the cloud scale and the CapEx funded there. I mean, look at Amazon, they've got a ton of open storage. You mentioned snowflake, but they're getting a proprietary value. P so I need to ask you MarTech in particular, that means it's a data business, which you, you pointed out and we agree. MarTech will be about the data of the workflows. How do you get those workflows what's changing and how these companies are gonna be building? What's your take on it? Because it's gonna be one of those things where it might be the innovation on a source of data, or how you handle two parties, ex handling encrypted data sets. I don't know. Maybe it's a special encryption tool, so we don't know what it is. What's your what's, what's your outlook on this area? >>I, I, I think that last point just said is super interesting, super genius. It's integration or multiple data sources. So I think either one, if it's a data business, do you have proprietary data? Um, one number two with the data you do have proprietary, not how do you enrich the data and do you enrich the data with, uh, a public data set or a party data set? So this could be cookies. It could be done in Brad street or zoom info information. How do you enrich the data? Number three, do you have machine learning models or some other IP that once you collected the data, enriched the data, you know, what do you do with the data? And then number four is once you have, um, you know, that model of the data, the customer or the business, what do you deal with it? Do you email, do you do a tax? >>Do you do a campaign? Do you upsell? Do you change the price dynamically in our customers? Do you serve a new content on your website? So I think that workflow to your point is you can start from the same place, what to do with the data in between and all the, on the out the side of this, this pipeline is where a MarTech company can have then. So like I said before, it was a website to an email go to website. You know, we have a cookie fill out a form. Yeah. I send you an email later. I think now you, you can't just do a website to email, it's a website plus mobile apps, plus, you know, in real world interaction to text message, chat, phone, call Twitter, a whatever, you know, it's >>Like, it's like, they're playing checkers in web two and you're talking 3d chess. <laugh>, I mean, there's a level, there's a huge gap between what's coming. And this is kind of interesting because now you mentioned, you know, uh, machine learning and data, and AI is gonna factor into all this. You mentioned, uh, you know, rock set. One of your portfolios has under the hood, you know, open source and then use proprietary data and cloud. Okay. That's a configuration, that's an architecture, right? So architecture will be important in terms of how companies posture in this market, cuz MarTech is ripe for innovation because it's based on these old technologies, but there's tons of workflows, but you gotta have the data. Right. And so if I have the best journey map from a client that goes to a website, but then they go and they do something in the organic or somewhere else. If I don't have that, what good is it? It's like a blind spot. >>Correct. So I think you're seeing folks with the data BS, snowflake or data bricks, or an Amazon that S three say, Hey, come to my data cloud. Right. Which, you know, Snowflake's advertising, Amazon will say the data cloud is S3 because all your data exists there anyway. So you just, you know, live on S3 data. Bricks will say, S3 is great, but only use Amazon tools use data bricks. Right. And then, but on top of that, but then you had our SaaS companies like Oracle, Salesforce, whoever, and say, you know, use our qua Marketo, exact target, you know, application as a system record. And so I think you're gonna have a battle between, do I just work my data in S3 or where my data exists or gonna work my data, some other application, like a Marketo Ella cloud Z target, um, or, you know, it could be a Twilio segment, right. Was combination. So you'll have this battle between these, these, these giants in the cloud, easy, the castles, right. Versus, uh, the, the, the, the contenders or the, or the challengers as we call >>'em. Well, great. Always chat with the other. We always talk about castles in the cloud, which is your work that you guys put out, just an update on. So check out greylock.com. They have castles on the cloud, which is a great thesis on and a map by the way ecosystem. So you guys do a really good job props to Jerry and the team over at Greylock. Um, okay. Now I gotta ask kind of like the VC private equity sure. Market question, you know, evaluations. Uh, first of all, I think it's a great time to do a startup. So it's a good time to be in the VC business. I think the next two years, you're gonna find some nice gems, but also you gotta have that cleansing period. You got a lot of overvaluation. So what happened with the markets? So there's gonna be a lot of M and a. So the question is what are some of the things that you see as challenges for product teams in particular that might have that killer answer in MarTech, or might not have the runway if there's no cash, um, how do people partner in this modern era, cuz scale's a big deal, right? Mm-hmm <affirmative> you can measure everything. So you get the combination of a, a new kind of M and a market coming, a potential growth market for the right solution. Again, value's gotta be be there. What's your take on this market? >>I, I, I think you're right. Either you need runway, so cash to make it through, through this next, you know, two, three years, whatever you think the market Turmo is or two, you need scale, right? So if you're at a company of scale and you have enough data, you can probably succeed on your own. If not, if you're kind of in between or early to your point, either one focus, a narrower wedge, John, just like we say, just reduce the surface area. And next two years focus on solving one problem. Very, very well, or number two in this MarTech space, especially there's a lot of partnership and integration opportunities to create a complete solution together, to compete against kind of the incumbents. Right? So I think they're folks with the data, they're folks doing data, privacy, security, they're post focusing their workflow or marketing workflows. You're gonna see either one, um, some M and a, but I definitely can see a lot of Coopers in partnership. And so in the past, maybe you would say, I'm just raise another a hundred million dollars and do what you're doing today. You might say, look, instead of raising more money let's partner together or, or merge or find a solution. So I think people are gonna get creative. Yeah. Like said scarcity often is good. Yeah. I think forces a lot more focus and a lot more creativity. >>Yeah. That's a great point. I'm glad you brought that up up. Cause I didn't think you were gonna go there. I was gonna ask that biz dev activity is going to be really fundamental because runway combined with the fact that, Hey, you know, if you know, get real or you're gonna go under is a real issue. So now people become friends. They're like, okay, if we partner, um, it's clearly a good way to go if you can get there. So what advice would you give companies? Um, even most experienced, uh, founders and operators. This is a different market, right? It's a different kind of velocity, obviously architectural data. You mentioned some of those key things. What's the posture to partner. What's your advice? What's the combat man manual to kind of compete in this new biz dev world where some it's a make or break time, either get the funding, get the customers, which is how you get funding or you get a biz dev deal where you combine forces, uh, go to market together or not. What's your advice? >>I, I think that the combat manual is either you're partnering for one or two things, either one technology or two customers or sometimes both. So it would say which partnerships, youre doing for technology EG solution completers. Like you have, you know, this puzzle piece, I have this puzzle piece data and data privacy and let's work together. Um, or number two is like, who can help you with customers? And that's either a, I, they can be channel for you or, or vice versa or can share customers and you can actually go to market together and find customers jointly. So ideally you're partner for one, if not the other, sometimes both. And just figure out where in your life cycle do you need? Um, friends. >>Yeah. Great. My final question, Jerry, first of all, thanks for coming on and sharing your in insight as usual. Always. Awesome final question for the folks watching that are gonna be partnering and buying product and services from these startups. Um, there's a select few great ones here and obviously every other episode as well, and you've got a bunch you're investing in this, it's actually a good market for the ones that are lean companies that are lean and mean have value. And the cloud scale does provide that. So a lot of companies are getting it right, they're gonna break through. So they're clearly gonna be getting customers the buyer side, how should they be looking through the lens right now and looking at companies, what should they look for? Um, and they like to take chances with seeing that. So it's not so much, they gotta be vetted, but you know, how do they know the winners from the pretenders? >>You know, I, I think the customers are always smart. I think in the, in the, in the past in market market tech, especially they often had a budget to experiment with. I think you're looking now the customers, the buyer technologies are looking for a hard ROI, like a return on investment. And before think they might experiment more, but now they're saying, Hey, are you gonna help me save money or increase revenue or some hardcore metric that they care about? So I think, um, the startups that actually have a strong ROI, like save money or increased revenue and can like point empirically how they do that will, will, you know, rise to the top of, of the MarTech landscape. And customers will see that they're they're, the customers are smart, right? They're savvy buyers. They, they, they, they, they can smell good from bad and they're gonna see the strong >>ROI. Yeah. And the other thing too, I like to point out, I'd love to get your reaction real quick is a lot of the companies have DNA, any open source or they have some community track record where communities now, part of the vetting. I mean, are they real good people? >>Yeah. I, I think open stores, like you said, in the community in general, like especially all these communities that move on slack or discord or something else. Right. I think for sure, just going through all those forums, slack communities or discord communities, you can see what's a good product versus next versus bad. Don't go to like the other sites. These communities would tell you who's working. >>Well, we got a discord channel on the cube now had 14,000 members. Now it's down to six, losing people left and right. We need a moderator, um, to get on. If you know anyone on discord, anyone watching wants to volunteer to be the cube discord, moderator. Uh, we could use some help there. Love discord. Uh, Jerry. Great to see you. Thanks for coming on. What's new at Greylock. What's some of the things happening. Give a quick plug for the firm. When you guys working on, I know there's been some cool things happening, new investments, people moving. >>Yeah. Look we're we're Greylock partners, seed series a firm. I focus at enterprise software. I have a team with me that also does consumer investing as well as crypto investing like all firms. So, but we're we're seed series a occasionally later stage growth. So if you're interested, uh, FA me@jkontwitterorjgreylock.com. Thank you, John. >>Great stuff, Jerry. Thanks for coming on. This is the Cube's presentation of the, a startup showcase. MarTech is the series this time, emerging cloud scale customer experience where the integration and the data matters. This is season two, episode three of the ongoing series covering the hottest cloud startups from the ADWS ecosystem. Um, John farrier, thanks for watching.

>> Announcer: From theCUBE studios in Palo Alto in Boston, connecting with thought leaders all around the world. This is a CUBE conversation. >> Hi everyone. Welcome to this CUBE Conversation. I'm John Furrier host of theCUBE here in the CUBEs, Palo Alto studios during the COVID crisis. We're quarantine with our crew, but we got the remote interviews. Got two great guests here from Fortinet FortiGuard Labs, Derek Mankey, Chief Security Insights and global threat alliances at Fortinet FortiGuard Labs. And Aamir Lakhani who's the Lead Researcher for the FortiGuard Labs. You guys is great to see you. Derek, good to see you again, Aamir, good to meet you too. >> It's been a while and it happens so fast. >> It just seems was just the other day, Derek, we've done a couple of interviews in between a lot of flow coming out of Fortinet FortiGuard, a lot of action, certainly with COVID everyone's pulled back home, the bad actors taking advantage of the situation. The surface areas increased really is the perfect storm for security in terms of action, bad actors are at an all time high, new threats. Here's going on, take us through what you guys are doing. What's your team makeup look like? What are some of the roles and you guys are seeing on your team and how does that transcend to the market? >> Yeah, sure, absolutely. So you're right. I mean like I was saying earlier that is, this always happens fast and furious. We couldn't do this without a world class team at FortiGuard Labs. So we've grown our team now to over 235 globally. There's different rules within the team. If we look 20 years ago, the rules used to be just very pigeonholed into say antivirus analysis, right? Now we have to account for, when we're looking at threats, we have to look at that growing attack surface. We have to look at where are these threats coming from? How frequently are they hitting? What verticals are they hitting? What regions, what are the particular techniques, tactics, procedures? So we have threat. This is the world of threat intelligence, of course, contextualizing that information and it takes different skill sets on the backend. And a lot of people don't really realize the behind the scenes, what's happening. And there's a lot of magic happening, not only from what we talked about before in our last conversation from artificial intelligence and machine learning that we do at FortiGuard Labs and automation, but the people. And so today we want to focus on the people and talk about how on the backend we approached a particular threat, we're going to talk to the word ransom and ransomware, look at how we dissect threats, how correlate that, how we use tools in terms of threat hunting as an example, and then how we actually take that to that last mile and make it actionable so that customers are protected. I would share that information with keys, right, until sharing partners. But again, it comes down to the people. We never have enough people in the industry, there's a big shortage as we know, but it's a really key critical element. And we've been building these training programs for over a decade with them FortiGuard Labs. So, you know John, this to me is exactly why I always say, and I'm sure Aamir can share this too, that there's never a adult day in the office and all we hear that all the time. But I think today, all of you is really get an idea of why that is because it's very dynamic and on the backend, there's a lot of things that we're doing to get our hands dirty with this. >> You know the old expression startup plan Silicon Valley is if you're in the arena, that's where the action is. And it's different than sitting in the stands, watching the game. You guys are certainly in that arena and you got, we've talked and we cover your, the threat report that comes out frequently. But for the folks that aren't in the weeds on all the nuances of security, can you kind of give the 101 ransomware, what's going on? What's the state of the ransomware situation? Set the stage because that's still continues to be threat. I don't go a week, but I don't read a story about another ransomware. And then at least I hear they paid 10 million in Bitcoin or something like, I mean, this is real, that's a real ongoing threat. What is it? >> The (indistinct) quite a bit. But yeah. So I'll give sort of the 101 and then maybe we can pass it to Aamir who is on the front lines, dealing with this every day. You know if we look at the world of, I mean, first of all, the concept of ransom, obviously you have people that has gone extended way way before cybersecurity in the world of physical crime. So of course, the world's first ransom where a virus is actually called PC Cyborg. This is a 1989 around some payment that was demanded through P.O Box from the voters Panama city at the time, not too effective on floppiness, a very small audience, not a big attack surface. Didn't hear much about it for years. Really, it was around 2010 when we started to see ransomware becoming prolific. And what they did was, what cyber criminals did was shift on success from a fake antivirus software model, which was, popping up a whole bunch of, setting here, your computer's infected with 50 or 60 viruses, PaaS will give you an antivirus solution, which was of course fake. People started catching on, the giggles out people caught on to that. So they, weren't making a lot of money selling this fraudulent software, enter ransomware. And this is where ransomware, it really started to take hold because it wasn't optional to pay for this software. It was mandatory almost for a lot of people because they were losing their data. They couldn't reverse engineer that the encryption, couldn't decrypt it, but any universal tool. Ransomware today is very rigid. We just released our threat report for the first half of 2020. And we saw, we've seen things like master boot record, MVR, ransomware. This is persistent. It sits before your operating system, when you boot up your computer. So it's hard to get rid of it. Very strong public private key cryptography. So each victim is effective with the direct key, as an example, the list goes on and I'll save that for the demo today, but that's basically, it's just very, it's prolific. We're seeing shuts not only just ransomware attacks for data, we're now starting to see ransom for extortion, for targeted around some cases that are going after critical business. Essentially it's like a DoS holding revenue streams go ransom too. So the ransom demands are getting higher because of this as well. So it's complicated. >> Was mentioning Aamir, why don't you weigh in, I mean, 10 million is a lot. And we reported earlier in this month. Garmin was the company that was hacked, IT got completely locked down. They pay 10 million, Garmin makes all those devices. And as we know, this is impact and that's real numbers. I mean, it's not other little ones, but for the most part, it's nuance, it's a pain in the butt to full on business disruption and extortion. Can you explain how it all works before we go to the demo? >> You know, you're absolutely right. It is a big number and a lot of organizations are willing to pay that number, to get their data back. Essentially their organization and their business is at a complete standstill when they don't pay, all their files are inaccessible to them. Ransomware in general, what it does end up from a very basic overview is it basically makes your files not available to you. They're encrypted. They have essentially a passcode on them that you have to have the correct passcode to decode them. A lot of times that's in a form of a program or actually a physical password you have to type in, but you don't get that access to get your files back unless you pay the ransom. A lot of corporations these days, they are not only paying the ransom. They're actually negotiating with the criminals as well. They're trying to say, "Oh, you want 10 million? "How about 4 million?" Sometimes that goes on as well. But it's something that organizations know that if they didn't have the proper backups and the hackers are getting smart, they're trying to go after the backups as well. They're trying to go after your duplicated files. So sometimes you don't have a choice in organizations. Will pay the ransom. >> And it's, they're smart, there's a business. They know the probability of buy versus build or pay versus rebuild. So they kind of know where to attack. They know that the tactics and it's vulnerable. It's not like just some kitty script thing going on. This is real sophisticated stuff it's highly targeted. Can you talk about some use cases there and what goes on with that kind of a attack? >> Absolutely. The cyber criminals are doing reconnaissance and trying to find out as much as they can about their victims. And what happens is they're trying to make sure that they can motivate their victims in the fastest way possible to pay the ransom as well. So there's a lot of attacks going on. We usually, what we're finding now is ransomware is sometimes the last stage of an attack. So an attacker may go into an organization. They may already be taking data out of that organization. They may be stealing customer data, PII, which is personal identifiable information, such as social security numbers, or driver's licenses, or credit card information. Once they've done their entire tap. Once they've gone everything, they can. A lot of times their end stage, their last attack is ransomware. And they encrypt all the files on the system and try and motivate the victim to pay as fast as possible and as much as possible as well. >> I was talking to my buddy of the day. It's like casing the joint there, stay, check it out. They do their recon, reconnaissance. They go in identify what's the best move to make, how to extract the most out of the victim in this case, the target. And it really is, I mean, it's just to go on a tangent, why don't we have the right to bear our own arms? Why can't we fight back? I mean, at the end of the day, Derek, this is like, who's protecting me? I mean, what to protect my, build my own arms, or does the government help us? I mean, at some point I got a right to bear my own arms here. I mean, this is the whole security paradigm. >> Yeah. So, I mean, there's a couple of things. So first of all, this is exactly why we do a lot of, I was mentioning the skill shortage in cyber cybersecurity professionals as an example. This is why we do a lot of the heavy lifting on the backend. Obviously from a defensive standpoint, you obviously have the red team, blue team aspect. How do you first, there's what is to fight back by being defensive as well, too. And also by, in the world of threat intelligence, one of the ways that we're fighting back is not necessarily by going and hacking the bad guys because that's illegal jurisdictions. But how we can actually find out who these people are, hit them where it hurts, freeze assets, go after money laundering networks. If you follow the cash transactions where it's happening, this is where we actually work with key law enforcement partners, such as Interpol as an example, this is the world of threat intelligence. This is why we're doing a lot of that intelligence work on the backend. So there's other ways to actually go on the offense without necessarily weaponizing it per se, right? Like using, bearing your own arms as you said, there there's different forms that people may not be aware of with that. And that actually gets into the world of, if you see attacks happening on your system, how you can use the security tools and collaborate with threat intelligence. >> I think that's the key. I think the key is these new sharing technologies around collective intelligence is going to be a great way to kind of have more of an offensive collective strike. But I think fortifying, the defense is critical. I mean, that's, there's no other way to do that. >> Absolutely, I mean, we say this almost every week, but it's in simplicity. Our goal is always to make it more expensive for the cybercriminal to operate. And there's many ways to do that, right? You can be a pain to them by having a very rigid, hardened defense. That means if it's too much effort on their end, I mean, they have ROIs and in their sense, right? It's too much effort on there and they're going to go knocking somewhere else. There's also, as I said, things like disruption, so ripping infrastructure offline that cripples them, whack-a-mole, they're going to set up somewhere else. But then also going after people themselves, again, the cash networks, these sorts of things. So it's sort of a holistic approach between- >> It's an arms race, better AI, better cloud scale always helps. You know, it's a ratchet game. Aamir, I want to get into this video. It's a ransomware four minute video. I'd like you to take us through as you the Lead Researcher, take us through this video and explain what we're looking at. Let's roll the video. >> All right. Sure. So what we have here is we have the victims that's top over here. We have a couple of things on this victim's desktop. We have a batch file, which is essentially going to run the ransomware. We have the payload, which is the code behind the ransomware. And then we have files in this folder. And this is where you would typically find user files and a real world case. This would be like Microsoft or Microsoft word documents, or your PowerPoint presentations, or we're here we just have a couple of text files that we've set up. We're going to go ahead and run the ransomware. And sometimes attackers, what they do is they disguise this. Like they make it look like an important word document. They make it look like something else. But once you run the ransomware, you usually get a ransom message. And in this case, a ransom message says, your files are encrypted. Please pay this money to this Bitcoin address. That obviously is not a real Bitcoin address. I usually they look a little more complicated, but this is our fake Bitcoin address. But you'll see that the files now are encrypted. You cannot access them. They've been changed. And unless you pay the ransom, you don't get the files. Now, as researchers, we see files like this all the time. We see ransomware all the time. So we use a variety of tools, internal tools, custom tools, as well as open source tools. And what you're seeing here is an open source tool. It's called the Cuckoo Sandbox, and it shows us the behavior of the ransomware. What exactly is ransomware doing. In this case, you can see just clicking on that file, launched a couple of different things that launched basically a command executable, a power shell. They launched our windows shell. And then at, then add things on the file. It would basically, you had registry keys, it had on network connections. It changed the disk. So that's kind of gives us a behind the scenes, look at all the processes that's happening on the ransomware. And just that one file itself, like I said, does multiple different things. Now what we want to do as a researchers, we want to categorize this ransomware into families. We want to try and determine the actors behind that. So we dump everything we know in a ransomware in the central databases. And then we mine these databases. What we're doing here is we're actually using another tool called Maldito and use custom tools as well as commercial and open source tools. But this is a open source and commercial tool. But what we're doing is we're basically taking the ransomware and we're asking Maldito to look through our database and say like, do you see any like files? Or do you see any types of incidences that have similar characteristics? Because what we want to do is we want to see the relationship between this one ransomware and anything else we may have in our system, because that helps us identify maybe where the ransomware is connecting to, where it's going to other processes that I may be doing. In this case, we can see multiple IP addresses that are connected to it. So we can possibly see multiple infections. We can block different external websites that we can identify a command and control system. We can categorize this to a family, and sometimes we can even categorize this to a threat actor as claimed responsibility for it. So it's essentially visualizing all the connections and the relationship between one file and everything else we have in our database. And this example, of course, I'd put this in multiple ways. We can save these as reports, as PDF type reports or usually HTML or other searchable data that we have back in our systems. And then the cool thing about this is this is available to all our products, all our researchers, all our specialty teams. So when we're researching botnets, when we're researching file-based attacks, when we're researching IP reputation, we have a lot of different IOC or indicators of compromise that we can correlate where attacks go through and maybe even detect new types of attacks as well. >> So the bottom line is you got the tools using combination of open source and commercial products to look at the patterns of all ransomware across your observation space. Is that right? >> Exactly. I showed you like a very simple demo. It's not only open source and commercial, but a lot of it is our own custom developed products as well. And when we find something that works, that logic, that technique, we make sure it's built into our own products as well. So our own customers have the ability to detect the same type of threats that we're detecting as well. At FortiGuard Labs, the intelligence that we acquire, that product, that product of intelligence it's consumed directly by our prospects. >> So take me through what what's actually going on, what it means for the customer. So FortiGuard Labs, you're looking at all the ransomware, you seeing the patterns, are you guys proactively looking? Is it, you guys are researching, you look at something pops in the radar. I mean, take us through what goes on and then how does that translate into a customer notification or impact? >> So, yeah, John, if you look at a typical life cycle of these attacks, there's always proactive and reactive. That's just the way it is in the industry, right? So of course we try to be (indistinct) as we look for some of the solutions we talked about before, and if you look at an incoming threat, first of all, you need visibility. You can't protect or analyze anything that you can see. So you got to get your hands on visibility. We call these IOC indicators of compromise. So this is usually something like an actual executable file, like the virus or the malware itself. It could be other things that are related to it, like websites that could be hosting the malware as an example. So once we have that SEED, we call it a SEED. We can do threat hunting from there. So we can analyze that, right? If we have to, it's a piece of malware or a botnet, we can do analysis on that and discover more malicious things that this is doing. Then we go investigate those malicious things. And we really, it's similar to the world of CSI, right? These different dots that they're connecting, we're doing that at hyper-scale. And we use that through these tools that Aamir was talking about. So it's really a lifecycle of getting the malware incoming, seeing it first, analyzing it, and then doing action on that. So it's sort of a three step process. And the action comes down to what Aamir was saying, waterfall and that to our customers, so that they're protected. But then in tandem with that, we're also going further and I'm sharing it if applicable to say law enforcement partners, other threat Intel sharing partners too. And it's not just humans doing that. So the proactive piece, again, this is where it comes to artificial intelligence, machine learning. There's a lot of cases where we're automatically doing that analysis without humans. So we have AI systems that are analyzing and actually creating protection on its own too. So it's quite interesting that way. >> It say's at the end of the day, you want to protect your customers. And so this renders out, if I'm a Fortinet customer across the portfolio, the goal here is protect them from ransomware, right? That's the end game. >> Yeah. And that's a very important thing. When you start talking to these big dollar amounts that were talking earlier, it comes to the damages that are done from that- >> Yeah, I mean, not only is it good insurance, it's just good to have that fortification. So Derek, I going to ask you about the term the last mile, because, we were, before we came on camera, I'm a band with junkie always want more bandwidth. So the last mile, it used to be a term for last mile to the home where there was telephone lines. Now it's fiber and wifi, but what does that mean to you guys in security? Does that mean something specific? >> Yeah, absolutely. The easiest way to describe that is actionable. So one of the challenges in the industry is we live in a very noisy industry when it comes to cybersecurity. What I mean by that is that because of that growing attacks for FIS and you have these different attack factors, you have attacks not only coming in from email, but websites from DoS attacks, there's a lot of volume that's just going to continue to grow is the world that 5G and OT. So what ends up happening is when you look at a lot of security operations centers for customers, as an example, there are, it's very noisy. It's you can guarantee almost every day, you're going to see some sort of probe, some sort of attack activity that's happening. And so what that means is you get a lot of protection events, a lot of logs. And when you have this worldwide shortage of security professionals, you don't have enough people to process those logs and actually start to say, "Hey, this looks like an attack." I'm going to go investigate it and block it. So this is where the last mile comes in, because a lot of the times that, these logs, they light up like Christmas. And I mean, there's a lot of events that are happening. How do you prioritize that? How do you automatically add action? Because the reality is if it's just humans doing it, that last mile is often going back to your bandwidth terms. There's too much latency. So how do you reduce that latency? That's where the automation, the AI machine learning comes in to solve that last mile problem to automatically add that protection. It's especially important 'cause you have to be quicker than the attacker. It's an arms race, like you said earlier. >> I think what you guys do with FortiGuard Labs is super important, not only for the industry, but for society at large, as you have kind of all this, shadow, cloak and dagger kind of attack systems, whether it's national security international, or just for, mafias and racketeering, and the bad guys. Can you guys take a minute and explain the role of FortiGuards specifically and why you guys exist? I mean, obviously there's a commercial reason you built on the Fortinet that trickles down into the products. That's all good for the customers, I get that. But there's more at the FortiGuards. And just that, could you guys talk about this trend and the security business, because it's very clear that there's a collective sharing culture developing rapidly for societal benefit. Can you take a minute to explain that? >> Yeah, sure. I'll give you my thoughts, Aamir will add some to that too. So, from my point of view, I mean, there's various functions. So we've just talked about that last mile problem. That's the commercial aspect. We created a through FortiGuard Labs, FortiGuard services that are dynamic and updated to security products because you need intelligence products to be able to protect against intelligent attacks. That's just a defense again, going back to, how can we take that further? I mean, we're not law enforcement ourselves. We know a lot about the bad guys and the actors because of the intelligence work that we do, but we can't go in and prosecute. We can share knowledge and we can train prosecutors, right? This is a big challenge in the industry. A lot of prosecutors don't know how to take cybersecurity courses to court. And because of that, a lot of these cyber criminals reign free, and that's been a big challenge in the industry. So this has been close my heart over 10 years, I've been building a lot of these key relationships between private public sector, as an example, but also private sector, things like Cyber Threat Alliance. We're a founding member of the Cyber Threat Alliance. We have over 28 members in that Alliance, and it's about sharing intelligence to level that playing field because attackers roam freely. What I mean by that is there's no jurisdictions for them. Cyber crime has no borders. They can do a million things wrong and they don't care. We do a million things right, one thing wrong and it's a challenge. So there's this big collaboration. That's a big part of FortiGuard. Why exists too, as to make the industry better, to work on protocols and automation and really fight this together while remaining competitors. I mean, we have competitors out there, of course. And so it comes down to that last mile problems on is like, we can share intelligence within the industry, but it's only intelligence is just intelligence. How do you make it useful and actionable? That's where it comes down to technology integration. >> Aamir, what's your take on this societal benefit? Because, I would say instance, the Sony hack years ago that, when you have nation States, if they put troops on our soil, the government would respond, but yet virtually they're here and the private sector has to fend for themselves. There's no support. So I think this private public partnership thing is very relevant, I think is ground zero of the future build out of policy because we pay for freedom. Why don't we have cyber freedom if we're going to run a business, where is our help from the government? We pay taxes. So again, if a military showed up, you're not going to see companies fighting the foreign enemy, right? So again, this is a whole new changeover. What's your thought? >> It really is. You have to remember that cyber attacks puts everyone on an even playing field, right? I mean, now don't have to have a country that has invested a lot in weapons development or nuclear weapons or anything like that. Anyone can basically come up to speed on cyber weapons as long as an internet connection. So it evens the playing field, which makes it dangerous, I guess, for our enemies. But absolutely I think a lot of us, from a personal standpoint, a lot of us have seen research does I've seen organizations fail through cyber attacks. We've seen the frustration, we've seen, like besides organization, we've seen people like, just like grandma's lose their pictures of their other loved ones because they kind of, they've been attacked by ransomware. I think we take it very personally when people like innocent people get attacked and we make it our mission to make sure we can do everything we can to protect them. But I will add that at least here in the U.S. the federal government actually has a lot of partnerships and a lot of programs to help organizations with cyber attacks. The US-CERT is always continuously updating, organizations about the latest attacks and regard is another organization run by the FBI and a lot of companies like Fortinet. And even a lot of other security companies participate in these organizations. So everyone can come up to speed and everyone can share information. So we all have a fighting chance. >> It's a whole new wave of paradigm. You guys are on the cutting edge. Derek always great to see you, Aamir great to meet you remotely, looking forward to meeting in person when the world comes back to normal as usual. Thanks for the great insights. Appreciate it. >> Pleasure as always. >> Okay. Keep conversation here. I'm John Furrier, host of theCUBE. Great insightful conversation around security ransomware with a great demo. Check it out from Derek and Aamir from FortiGuard Labs. I'm John Furrier. Thanks for watching.

>> from Seattle Washington. It's the Q covering AWS. Imagine nonprofit brought to you by Amazon Web >> service is >> Hey, welcome back already. Jeffrey here with the Cube were in >> the waterfront, actually in Seattle, Washington. It's an absolutely gorgeous August day. We're here for the AWS. Imagine nonprofit event. It's the fourth year they've had. It is the first year's been kind of open to the public. It was invitation only. And we're excited to be here for our first time. Our >> guest is here for his first time, too. And >> we're excited to sit down with side L. Nash. He is the vice president. And of I t and C i o for the National Council on Aging. Say great to see you. >> Thank you. Good to see you. Yeah. So, first >> off, just kind of impressions on the event So far. Really good keynotes this morning. And they got a full two days planned for you. >> Yes, it was an excellent good note. Keynote speaks to the speech this morning and, uh, started off talking about impact and how nonprofit organizations make it make a difference in the world. >> Right. So National Council of Aging, the population is aging Maur Every day they keep sending me my my card in the mail that keep pretending I'm not old enough to get. But >> don't try to pretend exactly they are >> double AARP. Thank you very much for the car, but, um, there's a lot of unique challenges with as the population continues to get holding. What are some of your organisation's priorities? How do you address this kind of growing population in our society? >> So I'll share with you some statistics on aging. So there are about 72,000,060 and older adults in the U. S. 70 >> 1,000,000 to three on its growing >> and growing. It will be 92,000,000 in 2030. So it's a growing larger segment of the population. People are living longer, saving less about but half of those so are 60 plus have saving off about $30,000 about 80% off 60 plus have about maybe to chronic disease conditions. So people are living longer, saving less money, and obviously with that, there are a lot of challenges, and this is where we step in. So we step in. Our mission is to help people age healthier and wealthier, try to make sure that they planned correctly for their savings. And they plan correctly also for their convention there chronic diseases and managing their health in general. And so for that, we have a lot off just products, actually that help older adults figuring out there how to live in older and healthy life. One of them is our flagship product, helping people get access to ah, federal, state and local government benefits. It's called benefits. Checkup is the largest system decision support system in the country that helps older adults figuring out how what benefits take all 54 and how to apply. And we walked them through that whole process. >> So it's also not necessarily the most technically astute population, either, especially today seniors who didn't grow up his digital natives like a lot of the kids are today. And >> as you said, your your guys >> objective number one is economic security. Maybe not necessarily number one, but top of the list and then healthy living. And they don't have the benefit of of time for therefore one case and stuff to grow. So these air pretty unique challenges. How are you helping him? And then you know we're here in eight of us. What role has eight of us played in helping you reach your your constituent? >> Clear? You're asking a lot of questions in one. So let me try and answer them one by one. So let's take a >> look at the aging population, especially the older adults. 70 plus those who actually don't have. Ah, I don't know. They're not necessity technology savvy, but they have Ah, they have cell phone. It's over. 73% of them have cell phones and some have smartphones. S o. We looked at the different ways of trying to reach out to them. And one of the things that we experimented with is looking at an SMS texting pilot. So we actually started that pilot and was very successful. And well, now we're rolling out into a full production system. It's a we found out that it's a great channel. It's very simple asking simple questions. Did you apply yes or no? Just answer us if you were to do one or two. So tell us give us a very simple answer and we found that the engagement rates are way above the average industry. People tend to respond to text messages for better than actually telling them. Hey, there's the mobile app. Go download my mobile already So that's one aspect of it on the AWS Sod off it. So when I joined and see away about a year and 1/2 ago, we were in Private Cloud and in that situation we had a lot of single point of failures and disaster recovery was in bad shape. And so we realized that we needed to move into a new and more robust environment, one that solved the single all the risks that we had from disaster recovery. Single point of failures to also being able to innovate quickly and fast. And so we looked that we started the ah migration process to the cloud and we ended up on AWS back in February. This year would move 95% of our assets to the cloud to AWS Cloud and we medicated the two major risks. The single point of failure is disaster recovery and so on. And with that, we also have a lot of other tools that are out of the box that we're using right now with the AWS platform. >> That's great So, um, I want it back up to the S, the best comic cause That's really interesting. So how do you find your customers? How do you get people get engaged? Obviously, art center the card in the mail. You know, there's a lot of organizations that that we get involved with. How do you directly engage with your clients? >> So we do a lot of digital marketing, believe it or not. So we spent a lot off time money and energy into digital marketing on Facebook. So a good number of older adults are on Facebook. There's also a good percentage of them that are on YouTube. Unfortunately, older adults spend about 46 hours watching either TV or videos on the Web, those who have access to the Web. So that's one way we're trying to reach them. So these are our sort of marketing funnels. In addition to that, we have about close to 100 centers around the U. S. Where older those can actually go in and be helped and go walk through the process of applying for federal state local government benefits. And so we have. They're called benefits benefits centers. And so the those centers are open to the public. We also try to collaborate with different with different organizations around the country, through through whom we get older adults too engage with us and joined the benefits checkup program. And with that, we we ask people to our 10. So we take a very cautious and very respectful approach to data and privacy to ask people to opt in. And we tell them about how we're using the data. We encrypt the data address. We take very caring very good care of it. We don't share it outside of organization. So we have our own internal data privacy principles. So we take this matter very seriously again. Our objectives always the hope older adults live a better, healthier and wealthier life, >> right? I just love that the older people are now using Facebook and SMS like kids. >> 15 years ago, they moved on >> to other platforms. Thank goodness for the old folks keeping the Facebook and, uh >> so let's shift gears. A little >> bit of talk about your transformation in your movement to the cloud. How big of an effort was that? How long did it take? And, you know, hasn't really opened up the innovation because there's clearly cost savings. And as you talked about a single point of failure and kind of mitigating the negatives, but as well as we've seen over and over again, really, the benefits from from Cloud are really that innovation and delivering service is faster. So how's your experience? >> That's exactly right. So So let me talk a little bit about the traditional transformation. So about, I would say, year over year ago, we started our digital transformation initiative. It's really focused on customers, we call it, knowing our customers as individuals with individual needs. Traditionally organizations like ours looked at older adults. In the perspective, off percentages averages, on average is is how old they are on average, in this is their income. On average, this is their health. But in reality, every older adult is an individual that has specific and individual needs, and we need to really take a look at that and caters to those very specific needs that they actually changed over time. So the transformation really enabled it. We needed to move to a cloud where we can have products immediately that we can spend off and use a I machine learning products and so on. And so I'm gonna go back and talking more about our a digital transformation and the perspectives off it. So our objective long term is to build was recalling the the aging Well, aye aye. Engine. It's basically imagine an older adult waking up in the morning and trying to decide what are the top best three things for me to do. Stop the actions for me to do to improve my life. And we wanna help that older adult make those decisions easily and quickly through a frictionless interactions. Frictionless. Conversational. Aye, aye. Speaking to an Alexa like voice enabled smart speaker asking Alexa, what should I do today? Alexis, respond. The weather is nice out there. Call your friend. Go for a walk. Call your doctor, get the lab results and so on. And check your benefits on benefits. Check up and figure out and improve your life. So the idea is to really get the person to actively and the actively using technology and simple, frictionless way to be able to make those decisions that improve their lives. So for us to do this kind of work to build the aging. Well, Aye, aye. Engine. It is impossible without being on a cloud like >> a w. Interesting. So, uh, first time I've heard about Lexus since we've been here. A lot of talk about Lex at the education conference a couple of weeks back. So is Alexa. Pretty key piece of your strategy going forward, you really see voice as a different type of communication. You mentioned. That's a message. Just kind of old, but really effective. How do you see Alexa playing >> so absolutely so voice enabled communication channels. So we look at it as actually we look at our communication with older adults. We look at it as an Army channel communication. Every person have their own preference of the way they interact with technology. Some people prefer SMS. Others like to speak to Alexa. Others like to go through the web and so on. Some are on Facebook or YouTube, etcetera. So each we have our own choices. And that's exactly why we need to look at the older adults as individuals with their individual needs. And then our job is to deliver those to deliver all products through those different channels individually. So delivering the right product with the right customer at the right time and through the right channels. So lax is one of the channels it is. It's not the only channel or the voice channel I would call it is not the only channels. What we found out is that older adults find Alexis is very engaging. It reduces social isolation. It helps with the many other tests, especially for those who are visually inferred. The the complexity. The challenge for older adults is setting it up, so that's what we're trying to look at. Ways of trying to packages will be package so that it is possible for the older adult to plug it in and be able to use it. The other thing that we discovered, we probably need to look at family caregivers as the customer segment of the customer target that we would work with really enable looks, um, >> interesting. Let's see, it seems like a natural fit once you get kind of the tone and the and the comfort worked out, and I would imagine you're writing all types of specific things for to do and types of activities for Alexa to do for the specific needs of this older generation, >> so yeah. So we started >> a very small proof of concept project with Alexa trying to engage an experiment for me, everything that we do has to bring in value. And I need to also make sure that we are when we deliver a product or customers. That product actually delivers that value and engages the customers. So we know that there are there is the value in there were also working with partners on delivering this voice channel. So I know that we have, as a non profit organization with our, you know, a limited resource is. And so we look at partners as a way to enable those votes channels on the different channels that we have >> exciting, exciting times. And I look forward to watching that innovation pulls out at a high rate of speed. So thanks for taking a few minutes and safe travels home. >> Okay. Thank you, Seed. I'm Jeff. You're watching the keyboard aws. Imagine >> in Seattle. Thanks for watching. We'll see you next time

>> Live from Orlando, Florida! It's theCube! Covering Enterprise Connect 2019 Brought to you by Five9. >> Welcome to theCUBE! We are live in Orlando, Florida at Enterprise Connect 2019! We're in Five9's booth. I'm Lisa Martin, with Stu Miniman. And we're welcoming Fuze to theCUBE for the first time. Michael Affronti, the SVP of Product and Design. Michael, welcome to theCUBE! >> Thank you, Lisa! Yeah, great to be here! >> So, talk to us about Fuze. Give our viewers a little bit of an opportunity to understand who you guys are. What you do in the unified communications space. >> Great, an easy start. So Fuze is a global unified communication provider. We've been around since 2006. We deliver voice, video, and messaging experiences on our cloud platform. One of the things that's unique about Fuze is that we specialize in selling to very large enterprises. So we work primarily with multi-thousand, ten-thousand seed organizations that are globally distributed. Almost half of our business comes from outside of North America. So we work really well with companies that are, you know, much like Fuze, globally distributed. Have workers scattered all over the place, and want to give them a tool and a technology that helps them come together to be more productive. >> Great. So Michael, before we get into Fuze Give us a little bit of your journey. You've been involved in this space for quite a long time. >> Yeah, absolutely. I like to joke that I've been in the cloud before there was a cloud. I've worked in unified communications my whole life. I'm very, very passionate about productivity. I like to make lists for pretty much everything I do. My wife also does, so that works out really well. But the thing is, I think that productivity at its core is really fundamental to the way that people get there job done in communication application. I've been working in communications since I graduated from college. I worked on some of the early email programs like Outlook. And then, I charted out on my own with some friends, and we did a small start-up in the communication space that helped us actually focus on blending machine learning with identity. That was called Contactive. Then, we met up with the folks working on Fuze. And decided to join forces in 2013. I've had a really great run since then, helping to build Fuze into what it is today. >> So, I just want to poke at one thing there. You talk about worker productivity. If I could look at studies the last couple of decades, the new technology wave doesn't necessarily give us better worker productivity. I'm curious to hear your viewpoint. What's working? What's not working? How can we actually as a workforce be more productive? >> I would say adoption is actually the most critical challenge that most organizations face when it comes to communication tools. Similar to what we talked about when we were chatting earlier. There's this concept of, "I know how to communicate at work. Don't change it." And when you change it, it's very disruptive. So even if the tools are actually better, like empirically better, workers' productivity would go down because they were either told to use it, or it's not as elegant to use as the thing they use on their consumer device. Which is why it's very important from Fuze's perspective that we focus on application experiences, but not only application experiences but the adoption of them through our cloud enablement and some of the practices that we put in place when we deploy to our customers. >> Let's stick into that adoption, because to your point, when everything changes, we're creatures of habit. But you guys are working with large enterprise organizations which, presumably have been around for a long time. They've got multiple generations of workers who are used to working in their own ways. What are some of the best practices that Fuze can help these large organizations employ to drive up adoption and really satisfy those workers? >> It actually starts with discovery, right? One of the first things that we do when we're working with a large enterprise is we ask them, what are the business units within your company? What are the demographics and the styles of work of the people in those different groups? And then we help, as part of our engagement plan. We actually come up with a persona map that says for these employees, even though you want to move to a full cloud solution, we recommend giving them a hard phone that goes on the desk. Because the style of their job and the ergonomics of putting a receiver on their shoulder will help them transition to using the software. As opposed to just ripping the phone off their desk and saying, "Here's a headset. Good luck." And we help the groups. The companies identify those groups, give them specific adoption patterns. Like the one I mentioned, to make the ease into using a new cloud solution, like Fuze, much easier to adopt. So that is persona based. Very, very specific with a clear plan. And we tend to see very high success in adoption rates. >> That's really interesting! Persona-based. For an average organization, how many different personas are you helping them design adoption strategies for? >> I would say, usually, less than a dozen. Depending on the size of the organization. You think about your major functions, back office, HR, finance, sales and marketing. Depending on the sales type, you'll have some others. So those are all individual personas that we'll develop a practice for. And one that's emerged recently for us, we announced our partnership with Samsung yesterday morning, and Enterprise Connect to help us target front line workers. The folks who are not in an office, who are out in the field, out in a truck, out in a manufacturing facility working with customers in a very different capacity. So we've started developing some amazing persona and enablement models, and software for them and partnership with Samsung to help them be successful and feel included with the rest of the organization. >> Michael, how are we doing with the dichotomy between what I can use, from a communication standpoint as a personal, you know when I've got my smartphone, I've got the latest apps. Millennials like to communicate a little bit differently than the boomers would, so that difference between what I do at home, versus the enterprises. Has that gap closed? Is the business user now as empowered as what the consumer could before? >> I would say the broad answer across the industry is no. I think most, if you look at most organizations and you actually stare at someone's phone, and you flip open their WhatsApp if they let you, and you ask them, "What's that group?" And they'll say, "Those are my colleagues for this project." Why do you have a WhatsApp group for that? "Eh, it's faster. One of the employees lives in Brazil." And there's always a reason. And they always default to what's easiest, and to what's probably available in an app store. So, I think the inherent challenge of communication apps in the enterprise is to engage the user in a way that they feel comfortable not going to that least common denominator, which is not secure, not protected, and none of the things that we don't want from an IT perspective. I think on a good way, what consumer experiences are doing is much like with instant messenger many years ago. They're helping to condition users to a new way of communicating, that they then bring that expectation to work. So you know, I give the example, we have an employee of one of our customers that made the joke to me. She said, "Oh, you guys still have phone calls? That's sort of like video with the screen turned off." And I said, "Yes, that's the other way to come at it. Right?" She doesn't think about it as picking up the phone. She thinks about, "I'm always going to be having a video chat with you, and sometimes you'll turn the video off." So, I think those expectations are changing, and I think our software and everyone's software has to match to adapt. >> You've talked about the frontline worker, in fact, that was addressed during the key note this morning as well. A number of the customers on the panel talking about how they have to enable those frontline workers. I'm wondering about the remote workers, because as you're working with large enterprise organizations, who have a plethora of remote workers in different cultures, different timezones. How can Fuze help bring that remote worker into the team so they really feel part of the team and are part of that actual collaboration on a daily basis? >> It's actually one critical thing that we did last year. Emoji support, right? So, emotion is really important. Getting people excited about the fact that I'm talking to you but I'm not physically next to you. When you lose the ability after a meeting to physically catch up with someone and say, "Hey, great job!' Honestly, emojis help drive emotion. One of the things we saw once we implemented that was an actual uptick in our user adoption. A small one, and when you actually ask users about it, they said, "Well, yeah. I got to send that a person a virtual high-five." So, I think remote employees yearn for the same experience you get when you physically bump into people at the office. I think the imperative for collaboration tools is to try to recreate some of that. Now, some of that is very sophisticated things with white boards and collaboration. But some of it could be as simple as sending a little smiley face or a thumbs-up. >> Yeah. Michael, I have certain friends of mine, if you don't have gif support, they're not using your engagement there. Wonder if you can help us connect the dots between the unified communication and the contact center? Which is a big theme here at the show, and obviously, our friends here at Five9 hosting us. >> Yeah, it's another great question. We have a great partnership with Five9 at Fuze. We service a lot of joint, large customers together. And I think the reason that we do that, actually, I know the reason we do that. It's because those customers have a single challenge, if you will. They want to be able to communicate to the people that they work with, which is primarily going to be through Fuze, and the people that are buying their products and services. And those people are going to be talking to them through the Five9 platform. So, it's this idea that when I need to get help from someone and I'm on the call with a customer, how do I go do that easily? How do I go find the people that I need to talk to? Those walls, I think traditionally, were very, very strict. Contact center folks had a hard time getting access to subject matter experts, or anyone they needed to talk to. But I think that's evolved a lot. >> Yeah, wondering if you can help me with reconciling some data that I heard out there. Fuze, you talked about very large scale customer deployment. Some of the vendors here are like, "Well, when you talk about cloud contact centers, they're not going to go to the largest environment." We know cloud scales pretty well. So maybe you can help us. Where does the Fuze customer base, the Five9 customer base scalability and size, Where do those intersect? >> Yeah, I think the way that we intersect is actually in a couple of places. So First and foremost, when we sell joint customers, I think it's also, I know that our definition of actually what large means can be different, right? For example, large multi-thousand seed organization that goes wall to wall with Fuze, not all of them are contact center agents. In fact, usually it's a small ratio of contact center agents. But, contact center could also mean something different per deployment. There could be externally facing contact center agents. There could be a direct sales team that uses the Five9 platform to communicate outbound or receive inbound sales lead calls. There may also be internal help desks at large organizations that use them for HR support, IT, or manufacturing services. So, I think what we see is that there's not an exact match between the two types of organizations that we service, but the ones that we work together in, there's a high overlap in need based on those personas. >> So you've been in UC for a long time, as you said. We're only half-way through stage 2 of the event, but I'm curious Michael, some of the announcements that have come out in key notes this morning, what excites you about the evolution of enterprise communications and collaborations that you've heard so far this week? >> Yeah, I think it's interesting over the years I've been at Enterprise Connect for four years in Fuze, and a few years back when I was in my old role, and I think it came from a place that was very much about speeds and feeds, and switches and hardware. To now, we're talking about frontline workers in waste removal trucks trying to make them feel included. I think the thing that excites me the most is that almost all of the technology here is focused on this idea of inclusivity, right? The idea that you're a remote worker and maybe the emoji is the thing that works for you and I. But if you're a frontline worker, or maybe you're between shifts, or you're stopped on the road. How do you bring technology to bear that helps them feel included? Helps them feel a part of the role and a part of their company? I think what's really cool too is, as opposed to speeds and feeds traditionally talked about, you're starting to hear things around the conference around the retention, employee engagement. How hard it is to hire talent in a job market like it is in North America today. Those are the things that really matter when you think about employee engagement, which is a direct function of how connected do they feel? Especially, if they're working from home at a satellite office. So, I love the change that it's now more about the person and their engagement as an employee, as opposed to, I don't know. How cool is your technology? I think that shift is really important because what we do is sort of fundamental to people getting their job done. >> There's a tremendous interest, because this is the largest event that they've done. They were saying this morning, 6,500 attendees, 140 vendors. That momentum is palpable. It's moving forward, as you say. And you can see there's a lot of excitement moving forward. But also getting to more of that personalization that, we're all consumers in every aspect. We expect it. >> Right. Yeah, yeah. >> Last question I had for you. You've got design in your title. I'm curious, are some of the generational things have to be taken into consideration as to the millennials with their mobil, they're used to that versus some of the more experienced workers in the force? Where do you see that going in the future? >> Yeah, the design of what we build at Fuze is critically important to adoption. And I always give this very basic example. How many times a day do you pick up your phone and go to check a message? Whether it be a text message, or flip through your recent calls, return a call? How many times, when you're on a call, do you hang up the call? Every time, right? Those gestures are really, really important. So one of the things that we actually stare at in Fuze is how close is the actual exit call button from the edge of the screen on most phones? And it sounds like a very nuance thing, but for actions that you do repetitively throughout the day, the ergonomics of well designed consumer applications make those things feel great. No matter if you're left or right handed. If the phone is a phablet or a small one. So, I think the design of Enterprise applications, back when I first started, were it's gray. Just use it and be quiet. Now it's much more of something where you must watch someone use your application and look at the telemetry to understand, are they having a good experience? Our software asks you after every call and meeting, "How was it? Rate it one through five stars." And that information actually helps us tune the software. I know most of our vendors in the space do similar things because we have to listen to the individual and user. We cannot rely on the abstracted opinions of stuff that comes up through surveys. >> Absolutely, listening to that voice of the customer. Well Michael, thank you so much for stopping by theCUBE and talking with Stu and me today about Fuze. What you guys are doing and your experience as the industry is evolving. We appreciate your time! >> Awesome! Thank you Lisa! Thank you Stu! It's been great. I appreciate it! >> For Stu Miniman, I'm Lisa Martin! You're watching theCUBE. (techno music)