>>Hello, welcome to the special cube conversation. I'm John for your host of the queue here in Palo Alto, California. We're still remoting in getting great guests in events are coming back. Next few weeks, we'll be at a bunch of different events and you'll see the cube everywhere, but this conversation's about network challenges in a distributed hybrid workforce era. We've got a team say he principal, product manager, edge networking solutions, a Dell technologies and Rob McBride channel and partner sales engineer at versa networks. Gentlemen, thanks for coming on this cube conversation, >>John. Thank you, John. >>So first of all, obviously with the pandemic and now we're moving out of the pandemic, even with Omnichron out there, we still see visibility into kind of back to work and events and it's, but it's clearly hybrid environment cloud hybrid work. This has been a huge opening of everyone's eyes around network security provisioning, you know, unexpected disruptions around everyone being worked at home. Nobody really forecasted that. The fact that the whole workforce would be remote coming in. So again, put a lot of pressure on the network challenges over over the past two years. How is it coming out of this different what's your guys' take on this. >>Yeah, to then when we start looking at it, let's kind of focus a little bit on challenges, you know, you know, when this all kind of started off, obviously, as you stated, right, everyone was kind of taken by surprise in a way, right? What do we do? We don't know what to do at this moment. And you know, I go back and I remember a customer giving me a call, you know, when they were at first looking at, you know, your traditional land transformation and one of the changed their branches to do something from an SD perspective. And then the pandemic hit. And their question to me was Rob, what do I do? Or what do I need to start thinking about now, all of a sudden to your point, right? Everyone now is no longer in the office and how do I get them to connect. >>And more importantly, now that I can maybe figure out a way to connect them, how do I actually see what they're doing and be able to control what they're actually now accessing? Because I no longer have that level of control as of them coming into the office. And so a lot of customers, you know, we're, we're beginning to develop kind of homegrown solutions, look at various different things to kind of quick hot patches, if you will, to address the remote workers coming in and things of that nature. And we'll be seeing kind of progression through all this as a, as, as opposed to just solving, getting a user, to connect into the, into an environment that it can provide, you know, continuity for. They started coming up with other challenges to the point of security. They started, you know, I have other customers calling me up and saying, you know, I I've now got a ransomware problem, right? >>So, you know, what do I do about that? And what are the things I need to kind of consider with respect to now I'm much more vulnerable because my, my, my branch has state has basically become much more diversified and solutions and things that they're looking for, regardless, obviously around security connectivity, there they've been challenged with addressing how do they unify their levels of visibility without over encumbering themselves and how they actually manage now this kind of much more kind of distributed kind of network if you will. Right? So things around, you know, looking at, you know, acronyms around from like a Z TNA or, you know, cloud security and all this fun stuff starts coming into play. But what it, what it points to is that the biggest challenge ideas, how does, how do they converge networking and security together and provide equitable and uniform policy architecture to identify their users, to connect and access the applications that are relevant to the business and be able to have that uniformity between whether it's the branch for them being remote. And that's part of what we've kind of seen as this progression to the last two years and kind of solutions that they're looking for to kind of help them address that. It's almost like >>It's a good thing in a way. It actually opens up the kimono and say, Hey, this is the real world we've got to prepare for this next generation a TIF. I want to get your take because, you know, remember the old days we were like, oh yeah, we've got to prepare for these scenarios where maybe 30% will be dialing on the V land or remotely, you know, it's not 30%. It was like 100%. So budgets aren't out of whack and yet they want more resiliency at the edge. Right. So, so one, I didn't budget for it. They didn't predict it and it's gotta be better, faster, cheaper, more skier. >>Yeah. Yeah. So, so, so John, the difference is, is that, you know, Dell, for instance, as already was already working towards this distributed model, right? The pandemic just accelerated that transformation. So, so when customers came to us and said, oh, we've got a problem with our workforce and our users being so geographically suddenly dispersed, you know, we had some insight that we could immediately lean on. We had already started working on solutions and building those platforms that can help them address those, those problems. Right. Because we'd already done studies before this, right. We had done studies and we'd come back on this whole work from home or remote office scenario. And, and the results were pretty unanimous in that customers were, all users were always complaining about, you know, application performance issues and, and, you know, connectivity issues and, and things like that. So we, we, we kinda knew about this. And so we were able to proactively start building solutions. And so, you know, so when a customer comes, there's like Rob was talking about, you know, their infrastructure, wasn't set up for everybody to suddenly move on day one and start accessing all the corporate resources where the majority of the organization is accessing corporate resources from away from campus. Right? So we, we, we have solutions, we've been building solutions and we have guidance to offer these customers as they try to modernize that network and address these problems. >>Well, that's a great segue to the next topic. Talk track is, you know, what is a network? What is network monetization? Right. So let's, let's define that if you don't mind, well, I got you guys here. You're both pros get that sound bite, but then let's get into the benefits of the outcomes from what that enables. So if you guys want to take a stab at defining what is network modernization mean? >>I think there's a lot of definitions, or it kind of depends on your point, your point of view of where you're, where you're responsible for, from a network or within the stack, you know, are from a take obviously is, you know, working, working from a vendor. And with solutions that we provide modernization is really around solutions that begin to look at more software defined architectures and definitions to begin a level of decoupling between, you know, points of control, hardware and software, and other kinds of points of visibility and automation to the point where, where things are let's, let's kind of put an air quotes in a sense of being more digitized. And in the sense, like even how we're looking at things from a consumerization perspective, but looking at things a much more, more cloud aware cloud specific cloud native in built automation, as well as inbuilt kind of analytics where things are much more in a, in a broader SDN, kind of a construct would be a form of a definition from a, from a, from a, from a monetization perspective. >>Now, do the other element of your, kind of a question in regards to, it's kind of the benefits that come as a result of this. So as customers have been in the last 24 months, looking at different solutions to address part of what we've been talking about, part of it is you want, when you're looking at, whether it's like you're using a word like sassy to kind of define, you know, how are enterprises looking for ZTE and they based solutions or cloud security to augment their, their overall needs. The benefits that they're finding are simplicity of management, because they're now looking for more uniform solutions that can address secure access for remote workers, in addition to their own kind of traditional access, as it relates to their offices to better visibility. Because as this uniformity of this kind of architecture, the now able to actually really see the level of context, right? >>I can see you, John, as far as where you're coming in and access and what applications on what devices. And now I have a means to actually apply a policy to that matters to me as the business, from an IP perspective, to protect me as the business, but also to ensure that you're actually authorized and accessing things that I have from an it regular reg regulations perspective. So benefits and the summary are kind of like Mo in bill automation, better, you know, things get done faster, things repair on their own in a different way, as a result of automation, greater visibility. Now they have much more greater insights into what we are doing as users of the overall it infrastructure and better overall control. That's been ultimately simplified as result of consolidation and unification. >>That's awesome. Insight. I T what's your take on the benefits of ma network modernization? >>So I'd like to sort of double down on, on, you know, something Rob said, right? So the visibility, right? So enhanced visibility in layman's terms, that just means more insight, more insight means the ability to implement best practices around application usage, application performance, more insights means control that it departments are, are meeting. They need that to manage and address security threats, right? To be able to identify an abnormal traffic pattern or unauthorized data movement, to be able to push updates and, and patches quickly. So, so it's really about, you know, that, that manageability, that that level of control gives them the ability to offer a resilient and secure underlying networking infrastructure. And then, you know, finally one of the key benefits is cost savings of, you know, everybody is trying to be more efficient. And so from, from our perspective, it's, it's really about building an open platform. >>You know, we've built a platform or an x86 based platform. We've we chose that because we wanted to tap into a mature ecosystem that, you know, customers can leverage as they, as they build their build towards their modernizing modernization goals. And so we're like tech leveraging technologies, like UCPs so universal customer premise equipments. And so that's really just an open hardware platform, but what you get by consolidating your network functions like routing and firewall, and when optimization you, and when you consolidate it all onto a single device, you get hardware savings, cost savings. You, you get operational savings as well, right? So you've it, common hardware infrastructure means a common deployment model means a streamlined operations means fewer truck rolls, right? So, so there's a tremendous amount of, of, of benefit from the cost standpoint as well, because from our perspective, it's really that what customers are looking for, they need enterprise grade solutions that can scale in a cost-effective manner. >>That's awesome. You guys mentioned sassy earlier. I'm like, first of all, software as a service is very sassy, big modern application movements. Always get my hair sassy. I think, you know, a kind of a term around SAS software as a service, but for you guys, it's talking about secure access service edge, which is a huge category growth right now where, you know, per security and networking, it's a huge discussion SD win fits into that somehow, because it used to be campus networking before now. It's everyone's world is the same. Now it's connected. So sassy is huge. How does that fit into SD when it's in the trend of the SAS at the same? What's the difference? Cause wan has been booming for the past decade as well in terms of trends. How are you guys seeing those converging in what's the difference? >>You know, I like to also agree with you, this thing has been booming the last couple of years, right. You know, kind of, kind of bread and butter part of what we've been doing, but, you know, to your question in regards to kind of its linkage relative to sassy, right. You know, as you articulated, right. It's the sassy secure access service edge from a definition of the acronym. So it's authority is first kind of good to kind of define a little bit, maybe for some of those that may not be overly familiar with it. And I like to kind of dumb it down a little bit into the point of sassy is really an architecture that is around, you know, the convergence of networking and security being put together in a uniform platform or service that is delivered from both the cloud, as well as addressing, you know, their, their kind of traditional land requirements. >>Now digging in sassy is broken to two little buckets, right? It's broken into a network layer and the six security layer and by its definition, right, by, by a particular analyst, the network component, a big portion of that is SD wan. And so SD wan providing that value associated to what does, you know, dynamic lanes, steering automation, application attachments, so on and so forth is a core element of the foundation of the network layer associates, associate sassy. And then the other element of zesty is around the security bit. And so they're very much intrinsically linked, whether, you know, for example, like versus just the kind of mentioned this here, the, the, the sassy cloud that we built for our customers to leverage for private access, public access, you know, secure internet CASBY, DLP type of services is built upon SQM. In addition to our customers that are using Guesty Lampard or traditional land are using SD wan to connect to that cloud. >>So it's very, very much linked and they kind of go hand in hand, depending on your approach to the broader architecture. And, you know, another point I'll bring into that. What, what it also highlights is that whether it's around sassy or not, when we, when in pertinent to everything we'd been other kind of been talking about, the other thing that's coming with sun intrinsically and natively is really the concept of security it's around, whether it's security at the branch, or whether it's around some form of, you know, identity management or a point of improving posture for the, for the enterprise to, you know, obviously the spec traffic at the branch where remotely, but what we're seeing at a trend wise, which, you know, part by customer adoption from our own platform, if you will, is basically security and SD Wang coming together, whether for your traditional land transformation, or as a result of sassy services for a hybrid needs of connectivity, right? Remote workers, hybrid workforce, going into the cloud for, for their connectivity needs and optimizations. In addition to obviously the, the enterprises branch transformations, >>I like that native aspect of it. We used to joke and call SD way in St. Cloud because it's, we're all using cloud technologies. Talk about the security impact real quick. If you don't mind, I want to just double click them what you mentioned there, because I think the cloud effication plus the security piece seems to be a key part of this dynamic. Is that true? Or did they get that right? What's what's this all mean with cloud vacation? Yeah, >>And I, I would, I, I, I agree with, I guess kind of where you're leading into that is, you know, review all of us you're right now. Exactly. In talking with you right now, right. John is, as you stated at the beginning, we're all remote. And so from a business perspective, right, we are accessing, or from an engagement we're accessing a cloud service. Now what's critical for us, as you know, obviously enterprise employees is that our means of accessing this cloud service needs to have some level of hardening. We need to protect, right. Not only our own asset that we're using, right. Our laptops or other machinery that you use to connect to the network, but in addition to protect our company, right? So our company also needs to protect them. So how can we do that? Right? How can we do that in a very fast and distributed way? >>Sure. We can put security endpoints at every location with every user and every home. And that's one means of, of a particular solution. So your point about cloud is now take all of that and bring it to the cloud where you'd have a much more distributed means, right? And much more dynamically, scalable approach to actually doing that level of inspection, posture and, and enforcement. And so that's kind of where the rubber meets the road, right, is for us to access those cloud applications. The cloud that we're using as a conduit for security, as well as network also is now even connected and optimized paths to applications like what we're using right now, right. To, to, to do this conversation. So that's kind of where it meets together. And the security element is because we're so diverse, we just need, we, we, we need to ensure, right. We're all much, we're much more vulnerable. Right? My home network is, you know, maybe arguably maybe not as secure as when I go into an office. Right? >>So most people, because you have worked for virtual networks, >>I can make that argument. Yes. Right. But you know, the average, most of us, remote workers, you know, our homes aren't as hard. And so we point a point of risk, right? And so, as we, as we go to cloud apps, we're more connected to the internet. Right. You know, the, the, the point of being able to do this enforcement from a sassy concept helps provide that improved posture for enterprises to secure their traffic and get visibility into that. >>All my network engineer, friends are secure, as you read about. And I always joked to the malware, you missed, missed the wrong network engineer. If I go after them, their house, spear fishing. And you're trying to get into your network. I'd say, if I want to bring this back, because what we're bringing up here is cloud is actually enabling more on premises because you're working at home. That's a premise, right? So you're also edge is a premise edge and cloud. And a cloud kind of eliminates all this notion of what is cloud and edge, but at the end of the day is where you are. Right. So having the performance and the security and the partnership that same with Dell, I know you guys have been on this for a while because I've been covering it, but the notion of edge completely changes now, because what does that even mean? Home's edge is the camp of data centers and edge the, the cars and edge, the telco monopoles and edge. This is a big deal. This is the unit about the unification. This is all about making it all work. What's your, what's your take on this from the Dell perspective. >>Yeah. And I think, I mean, it that's, I mean, you, you kind of summarize it, right. I mean, what does edge mean to you? Right. It's and then, so every time I have a conversation with, with somebody, I always start with, let's define what your edge is. And so, you know, from, from our perspective, from the Dell perspective is, you know, we believe that we want to provide enterprise grade infrastructure. We want to give our customers the right tools. And we're seeing that with this trend of a hybrid workforce, a geographically dispersed user base, we're seeing a tremendous need for, you know, from it departments for tools, for solutions that can give them the control that they can sort of push out into their networks to ensure a safe and secure external access to corporate resources. Right. And so that's what we're committed to is making sure that, that, that management layer by either developing the solutions, in-house bringing the right partners to the table and just ensuring that our customers have the right tools because this sort of trend, or this, this, this new normal is not going away. And so we have to adapt. >>So thanks for coming on, Rob, we'll give you the final word. What's changed the most, in your opinion, with customers, environments, around how they're handling their networks as we come out of the pandemic, which has proven kind of which projects are working, which ones aren't where to double down on what was screwed up. I mean, come on. This is, we're kind of seeing it all play out. What's your, what's your take on as we come through the pandemic and people come out of this, what's the big learning. Okay. >>Well that you need partners. Right. Okay. So it's not even from a vendor perspective. What I mean by partners is what we're finding and what I think a lot of other customers I've engaged with and others is this ain't easy for even as much as we can within the technology vendor market, right. It's to make things easier to do. There's a lot of technology and the enterprise, it is recognized. They need a lot of these building blocks, right. To, to accomplish a lot of different things, whether it's around automation, to, in other tools as, as auto was leading into. And so we're finding that, you know, a lot of our, our base or our interactions are really trying to identify an appropriate partner that can help not only talk to the technology, but help them actually understand all the various different, you know, multi-colored legal blocks, they've got to put together, but also help help them actually put that into a realization. >>Right. And, you know, and then be able to then give the keys to them so they can eventually drive the car. Right. And so the learning that we're seeing here is this is a lot of tech, there's a lot of new tech, new approaches to existing technology of things that they've actually done. And they're, they're, they're looking for help. Right. And so they're looking for kind of, let's call it like trusted advisor kind of status of people that can help explain the technology to them and then help them understand how do they put it together. So they can then ultimately accomplish our overall kind of, you know, other kinds of objectives from an it perspective. And the other learning that I'll just say, and then I'll, then I'll stop. Here is SD wan isn't dead, right? Yes. The man is actually still driving. And it's actually an impetus for a lot of other things that enterprise is actually doing, whether it's around, you know, sassy, oriented services, remote access, private access, and other things of that nature. >>I totally agree. I think the networking, stuff's still going to be so much innovation going on with the edge exploding as well. That the really great, amazing stuff happening. Thanks for coming on this cube conversation, great conversation, taking it to the edge network challenges in the distributed hybrid workforce era is about moving things around the internet, making them secure. I'm John for your host. Thanks for watching.

>>Locke from Las Vegas. It's the cube covering AWS reinvent 2019 brought to you by Amazon web services and along with its ecosystem partners. >>Well, welcome back to the cube live here in Las Vegas for AWS reinvent 2019 it's the cubes seventh year, eighth year of reinvent. We've been there almost from the beginning. I'm John ferry with Dave Volante extracting the signal from the noise. The two great guests here chew senior leaders, VMware, auntie that were Sanjay Poonan, COO of VMware cube alumni, Mike Clayville, vice president of worldwide commercial sales and business development for AWS guys. You're the senior leaders out on the field making things happen. I got to say the AWS VMware relationship, which we covered a couple of years ago when Gelsinger and Jassy were doing the little love Fest, they're in San Francisco. A lot of people were skeptical. This show here, we're hearing things like, that's my Superbowl moment. Things are working great. Cloud is scaling, so congratulations and welcome to the cube. Good to see you. Thank you. Yeah. All right, so let's get to the relationship. >>Talk about you guys' relationship and how it's morphed into such a success. We're hearing great feedback. The numbers on the research at day's been digging into shows. Customer spend is up. Is that the wave of cloud? Is that the integration? Sanjay, what's going on? Give us, gives you up to, Oh, I think we're delighted. You know Mike obviously and I have been friends for years. He's had some connections with VMware in his past that certainly helped in setting up this partnerships. So we're grateful to Mike and Andy and the team for that and it's, you know, two and a half to three years now since we announced it. Tremendous amount of customer interest. Listen, you know we said at the beginning of this, when you take sort of the King of the public cloud and the King, the private cloud together and don't force customers to say these have to be separate doors, you're going to do them both together. >>Customers liked that message and what we've been really doing over the course of the last 1218 months is perfecting use cases for this platform. I think to us, the key word is migrations. Cloud migrations. When people are moving their workloads off an app off VMware vSphere or cloud foundation, we want this to be the best place for it to land. We are McCloud in AWS for migration opportunity and anything short of that refactoring app would we, you know, not something that would be a good use of people's time and money because they should be then modernizing with all the wonderful services that Amazon's built, one they've migrated. So we've really perfected our message in the course of the last six, 12 months to two M's, migrate and modernize, migrate and modernize. So we could migrate you into this Avenue and then modernize with a set of container and other services. So that messes working. We put on stage at VMworld and there are many of them here, two big Amazon customers, VMware cloud, Amazon, Freddie Mac and IHS market. And they were telling our tens of thousands customers at those shows and similarly many of them here, that that's the best option to be able to do things. >>Yeah, it's great. It's great by the way, because it's a frictionless migration, right? So you've got a platform that same code base working on pram, same cloud based and cloud creating a seamless integration between the two platforms. We're finding customers very in enthralled by that. I say they say they love that because it's less disruptive for them. Yeah. But at the same time they say, but eventually I want to change my operating model to really drive profits to my bottom line. So could you talk a little bit about what that journey looks like? And I'm really interested in longer term Sanjay, how you play in that. I look Mike, sorry. So the first thing I'd say that one of the real reasons I love it is because they've got a big investment today and that investment is in skills. That investment is in operational processes. That investment is in licensing and all of that comes along with them on their journey. Whether it's a migration journey or a migration to modernize journey, it's working. So when you're talking about the bottom line, like you are, this is a great play for that bottom line. >>Yeah, I know. And I'd say, listen, from our perspective, we want to take a Freddie Mac. When they spoke at VMworld, they have I think 800 applications, 50 of whom are SAS and the other 750 are custom built, deep Lee virtualized and they're going to move all of them over the course of the next 12 months. I fell off my chair when I, when I heard how fast they planned to do it. IHS market has very a variety of very spread accounts and Amazon. Now we're going to help them move a lot of their workloads there. Once they're there, we want them to then use the tools that Amazon's bill. I'll give you two examples, maybe some of their backup tools into S3 CloudWatch some of their analytical monitoring types of tools. So there's going to be, and then of course AI database services and the best place once you've moved it there is to make sure that that migrated stack is stable. >>You have the best of the VMware tools, V center, V motion, all you know and the best of the Amazon tools. So when people start to see this, I think the myth of Sarah's saying refactor and replatform that application, which is in essence like taking a home. Okay. And having to destroy the home and completely rebuild it. Right? And that's just a meal, a waste of money and time when you could migrate it and then modernize it. So we just need to get that story well understood. Get our, you know, I, I mean Amazon probably has a few million customers. We have a half a million customers. If all of those customers can hear the story and beginning their journey with us, I think we will tip this in a way. Starting >>to tip, to get the, back to the point of your question as well. Look, our two companies have been engineering these solutions together deeply. So this just isn't a paper arbiters. Yeah. This is an engineering partnership that started years ago and what that means is as customers migrate to a beam ware on AWS, now they have access to over 175 AWS services, can it, right. Significant native access to a broad range of services that they can continue to innovate, identify new business models and it all seamlessly integrates back into a single platform. >>Yeah. One of the things I always said when I talked to Andy and Amazon folks is that the competitive advantage of the businesses scale and also the new announcements that come in. So one of the things we heard yesterday from a customer, uh, one of your joint customers was, you know, I asked him about outpost, which you guys now are going to ship in 2020, which was announced you already got native outpost, general availability. He goes, look it, we'd love VMware. We could probably look at VMware and kind of poke at things, maybe do things differently. But frankly I don't want to have to rearchitect my stack because I want the data science stuff from studio a Sage maker studio because the demand for the business results is coming in from the new capabilities. So this seems to be the trend where the migration is just lift and shifts, keep the operational flow going, foundation and the business value over the top is whatever you guys can bring in from an NSX and then the apps. Is this something that you're hearing more of? Because this points to all of us, the discussion around the platform is irrelevant because the business value is coming in from the data. Yeah. What, how do you guys react to that? Is that something that you're hearing? >>Well, the first thing I would say is the, you know, the pundents will tell you that by 2020 90% of customers will be in a hybrid model. So you know, the migration is, you talk about is in play and, and arguably 2020 will be the year of the most migrations in history if those pendants are correct. Right. And so that gets a lot of customers in the mode of being able to leverage a BMC and then be able to take advantage of all the, you know, the extensive amount of data services we have available. But if you ask me, where do you know, what are the, what are the big reasons driving the migration? It's traditional economics, right? It's, I'm, I don't need to be a capital expense heavy organization anymore. Why do I have to build data centers? Why do I have to extend data centers? Why am I building, why am I buying air conditioning that's not differentiating my business? Right? All of those things are creating drivers for this migration. Now as you begin the migration, that's when you begin to see, wow, imagine the simplicity of the same code base, same operational processes. I don't have to retrain a bunch of people just moving it right onto the cloud and now let me really dig in to the new services available from AWS. Look for those new business. >>I suppose having that focus of differentiation and VMware and saying, let's keep it and expand it to the edge and do things like that. And yeah, absolutely. I mean, listen, I think they had Cerner yesterday on stage and I think it was interesting to hear the CEO, they're talking about three verbs, migrated, modernize, and innovate. I mean that's the thing thing. So I think when you, when you start to see that becoming a very active dialogue, not just from CEOs but from CEOs and boards that are saying, listen, you know, part of the reason we want to move to the cloud is an increase our bruiser agility. It's not just a cost reduction. Yeah. I mean I don't need to have 80 data centers have, I could have half a zero a one or two so that I get, but beyond cost, if we can kind of get agility going faster. >>And for many of these folks, I think when I sit down in their customer advisory councils, when I, when we are advising them, they're all trying to serve their customers better, get data to become sort of the oil of their ability to make decisions better and AI and analytics sort of help in that area. And then of course, getting more efficient in lowering costs and risks. And I think when you're doing it, the scale that both of us have experienced doing, we understand data centers really well. We've software defined them for 20 years. These guys understand cloud probably better than anybody else. When we bring that sort of scale together and as Mike pointed out, a deeply engineered solution, we have a, we have a significant R and D investment in this and we're doing that jointly with them. When I often sit down in our joint QPRs, I joke about it with Mike and Andy and others, I sometimes forget, is that a VMware person speaking or an Amazon person because there's finishing each other's sentences. So there's a lot of that joint trust they've built and we just now have to keep showing that this is a solution that's innovating every three months because you're running on monthly and quarterly cycles and get large customers. I mean to us now, it's less so about the noise of getting everybody on stage. It's much more of a showing customer attraction. >>So I wonder if we could talk about one of the other big problems in the industry. Mikey talked about deep engineering and you guys are, you know, you're never done right, but you've solved that problem or solving that problem of making it easy for customers, VM-ware customers to run in the cloud. There's another big problem it could be concerned about customers is security and there seems to be somewhat of a dissonance. And I wonder if you could share with us maybe some of the thinking around this. So Steven Schmidt for instance, who is Amazon CSO says, Hey, the state of security in the cloud is, is great. And it is, it's, you know, you don't have a lot of technical debt coming in to the game. Pat Gelsinger is saying, Hey, you know, security, the state of security in my world is broken. So what's the conversation with you guys in terms of addressing that big concern on the minds of CEOs? And >>yeah, I'll start and they might feel free to add them. Thomas, I mean we've talked to Steve, we're like Steve, he's a very, he's a, he's an innovator and a thought leader in security. We're coming at it from a place that's complimentary to some of the point of views of, of Amazon. Um, and I shared this at our last VM world discussion. When we look at the, the, the control points of security where traditional security spent network, endpoint, identity, cloud and analytics, those are five, four control points where a lot of security is spent inside the $50 billion security market. We picked two that we're going to do really well. The network and endpoint NSX has been doing really well there. Now granted a bunch of that is on prem. It's replacing or complimenting Cisco, Palo Alto, checkpoint fire, a flash for a railroad bed, F five NetScaler spent. >>And now that business 13,000 customers in has become a 40, 50% of its security use cases. The network we just acquired, carbon black aide runs on the Amazon platform. It runs, uh, a next gen endpoint security. That's, you know, an evolution from the old world of Symantec, McAfee, you know, and there were only two vendors doing this at scale carbon black and CrowdStrike, we built, we built, we bought the better one. So when you put those together and collect a significant amount of telemetry from that, we think we could do something highly differentiated and security. So VMware, his goal and to the extent that Amazon or others are doing things in security that compliment our view of it, we'll build on it, right? Whether it's identity and access tools, whether it's load balancers, whether it's security, event management capabilities. >>Well we're in, we're integrating those two into the security in the cloud, which makes it seamless security, which is critical. >>Goal would be, listen, when we go and when we talked about this is what we're doing, security, we go to Mike and Andy and Steve and said, listen, this is our ambitions and security. We don't view Amazon as a competitor. And that's why he's very much complimented. They'll will be on the fringes. They have a load balancer. We now have a cloud. But that's okay. But that's the bigger part. If they were going off for endpoint security, as we be competitive there, if they were going up in network secure, but they're not. So I think when we share our intents, which we do very openly, we have open kimono sessions. He, this is where we are, this is where we're going. That's what we, and we go deep in that >>trust luck, but this is a historic partnership. This is not a partnership that I've seen anywhere in the industry in my 35 years. This is something that's at the next level and I think you'll look back, history will look back at this partnership and and recognize that its impact on cloud is going to be substantial. >>You hope you guys deserve a lot of credit and again, the critics were critical of the announcement. We were obviously favor, we saw the vision, but I think what surprised me most is that the spend numbers reflect is you guys clarified your cloud play with this move. The customers saluted it 100% they were on board and the numbers are showing it, but as Andy and you guys go to the next level, I got to get your thoughts on this trend of transformation. We have two means. We started in the cube this week. One was if you take the T out of cloud native, it's cloud naive. And the other one is what I said in my post about being reborn in the cloud. So you've got born in the cloud, startups and growth and enterprises were becoming reborn, okay? In the cloud, which means they're transforming. >>So as that trillions of dollars that are coming into the migration, you look at the numbers, there's only 20% of it spend in cloud. Roughly give or take. You're talking about trillions of dollars of new money. You guys are the commercial guys. Hey look, it's still day one for the cloud. It's still day one. I agree. You have a lot of people who might not make the migration, might die of starvation. Okay? As they move to the new model, you guys are out there have to take and you're going to go get that cash. What are you guys seeing? Cause this is a big trillions and trillions of dollars are on the table. You started Mike off. Well look. So, >>you know, uh, Sanjay talked about you see these customers and how enthusiastic they are about the opportunity here, right? And, and Freddie Mac's a great example of 100 million lines of code, and I've got to get out of three data centers in 24 months. Bam, they're out in 10, 10 months, 10 months, right? Um, 100 million lines of code over hundreds of, of applications done in 10 months. Now imagine the rest that the company can do now that they got that behind him, right? And that's what we're seeing is this partnership enables our customers to get a bunch done very economically, much faster, and now they can get onto the other things that they need to do. >>Yeah. And I'd build on that. Listen, you know, we track about a trillion dollars of it spend. And if you add up all of the cloud spend today, it's probably a, I mean, Amazon and Salesforce are probably the biggest in infrastructure and apps. It's probably 150 billion in total cloud spend, maybe 200 billion. So that's 15 to 20% of the total it spend, which is massive, but it's still as, as my points, that's early innings is that 20% it's probably going to become 50% at some point soon, right? If you look at the pace at which the cloud companies are growing, so the key question is, is going to go as 150 billion, the 1 trillion total number is going to grow, but probably a little bit faster and GDP most every 5% max, who's going to go grab that 150 Boone as it goes from 150 billion to 500 billion and the on premise spend slows down. >>Right? Um, I think that, you know, I think Amazon is very well positioned and from our perspective at VMware, we have a, you know, 10 $11 billion business. We're trying to tilt this increasingly more cloud. We announced our earnings call, 13% of it now is hybrid cloud and SAS, that 13% should become 2025 50. They are a pure cloud company. 100% of their businesses is cloud. We're in that transition. But why are we in that transition? Because we see that 150 billion of it spend likely becoming 500 billion. And if we don't get it somebody else's well hybrids, are we a tailwind for you guys? Because outpost is actually a statement that says hybrid at the edge. Now the data centers an edge, you've got edge. What is an edge? So cloud operations is now the standard and we, I mean, we actually coined the term hybrid six years ago and everyone could five, six years ago and everyone really laughed at us and now I think it's being validated. So it's, it's very gratifying now that Amazon has a similar vision to hybrid as us. Uh, we believe both the VMware cloud on Amazon outpost and BMR cloud running on outpost, we're very committed to that joint vision. >>Yeah. You're talking about the spending data and you know, VMware yet another revenue hit. I was pretty consistent in that and that standpoint. But if you look at the spending data, virtually every sort of traditional company with very few exceptions is you're seeing a share shift to the cloud. VMware is an exception. It didn't use to be that way a couple of years ago, but you're embracing the cloud really changed and became, you may cloud a tailwind right now to headwind. >>I think this partnership helped in that area and you put it right, right. Everything in life is either an opportunity or a threat. I think, and I've talked about it in your show before, cloud and containers were a significant threat. When I joined Amazon, sorry, when I was partners with Amazon, I joined VMware six years ago. I asked Pat and I said, listen, I think the threats to VMR, Amazon and Docker in 2013 now Docker is a whole different story. Kubernetes took their head out. Uh, but to our credit we joined credit, we partnered here and I think from our perspective, see, we at VMware aren't able to do a complete pivot like Adobe did to say burn the boats on, on premise and completely shift everything. SAS. Why? Because customers still want NSX on prem. Customers still want our HCI product on prem. People are still buying vSphere on prem. >>So we've got this more delicate balance of starting to shift and on-prem business. The aircraft carrier, you know at the time, 5,000,000,005, six years ago now, 11 billion to something that's a blend of on prem and cloud. While the cloud part grows a lot faster, that 13% of revenue we announced our earnings call is growing 40% yeah. So we can keep that growing foster and foster while the on-prem business is not decaying, it's still growing but not growing at the same pace, plus changing its end, make that transition a few years from now to being a lot more of a cloud company. >>The other thing you're seeing in the spending data, I wonder if you could comment is, you know, digital initiatives really started in earnest, let's say 2016 and people were doing a lot of experimentation. They were throwing everything for the new stuff against the wall. And what we're seeing now is they're narrowing the new and they were keeping the legacy stuff around because they were sort of running in parallel to hedge their bets. What we're seeing now is less experimentation in the new, and they're starting to unplug some of the older stuff. What they're not unplugging is cloud and they're hanging on to VMware and we're seeing, you know, spending levels revert to pre 2018 levels. I wonder what you guys are seeing at the macro. >>Well, the first thing I would say is I see experimentation continuing to accelerate, right? All of the new functionality that we bring out every day. Everybody's excuse, you're the sandbox for us. It's very invigorating because we love people to experiment and, uh, and we, you know, a lot of those experiments turned into amazing new startups as an example. And, or a bunch of those experiments turned into major new project projects in our, in our big, uh, enterprises. So we're continuing to see a real push towards experimentation and driving agility into the business. I don't know. Yeah, >>no, I, well, Mike, I'd agree. I mean, listen, we in some senses, uh, we have a very good strong, you know, on-premise business and when we see a really innovative company that's in the order of 33 35%, that's already 35 three 35 billion growing in the forties 30 to 40% I mean that's incredible. When we see companies like Salesforce and Adobe that are giant SAS companies approaching, you know, 10 1115 20 billion growing 2020 5% I think that infrastructure is a service and SAS business for us are trailblazers of where this cloud is headed now, these, the biggest companies in infrastructure and in SAS and we follow that. Now we have to then navigate to say, listen, the growth rates and the spending is going to be reflected by cloud spend that's heavily spending on there. And the way in which the on premise world is what spending, we have a bunch of hardware companies, we work very closely. >>We're watching how that spending is, is playing OD, whether it's Cisco, whether it's HP, whether it's Lenovo, Dell and others. And then of course we've got VM. We're sitting right in between and I think what we're trying to manage as you got a whole world of on-prem driven primarily by hardware companies. You've got a bunch of these cloud new companies, Amazon, Salesforce, Adobe, and we have a right in the middle saying, okay, listen, we want to be dragged by both while many of our customers still want some on prem. It's a delicate balance, but there's no, um, I mean we are very clear within VMware. We want to be led by a cloud first policy wherever we can. I'll give you an example. Workspace one, manage these devices. We want a company five years ago named AirWatch, why did we buy them versus somebody else? >>It was cloud. It was cloud-first that business now and use a computing has stilted itself to be primarily cloud-based, very subscription-based. It was on premise VDI at the time Mike was at the company six, seven years ago. It's become now completely cloud based on the back of a workspace one, you know, kind of thing. So that's how we're thinking about it. The new acquisitions we've done, whether it's carbon black, whether it's Velo club, it's CloudHealth. They're all cloud-based. Well, you guys made a good bet on cloud operations. That's the real shift. The cloud operation model is right in your wheelhouse. You guys have operators, VMware, you guys have cloud operations everywhere now edge with outpost. Congratulations. I want to say, Sanjay, it's been a great journey with you. You've been with the cube all 10 years. All seven years. We've been actually the 10 year anniversary. >>We've been documenting the history. Wow. The historic moments like you guys together writing AWS, really appreciate it. and of course that was good to see more action coming. Cloud 2.0 next gen. Cloud competition controversies. I mean what? You can't ask for a better movie here. John. Dave, I'm going to, we're going to bring mugs next time. Okay. We're going to have mugs.. I'm John for Dave a lot. They saw Jay Poon and Mike Clayville, the leaders, senior leaders of AWS and VMware out with their customers here on the queue. This is our AWS Intel set in the middle of the floor here at reinvent 2019 our seventh year. Thanks for watching more coverage day two of the queue. We'll be right back.

>> live from San Francisco, celebrating 10 years of high tech coverage. It's the Cube covering Veum, World 2019 brought to you by IBM Wear and its ecosystem partners. >> Welcome back inside the Moscow The Center. We're here, Mosconi North, Wrapping up our coverage here. Veum World 2019 Glad to have you with us here on the Cuba's. We continue our 10th year of 10th consecutive year of coverage here of the events to minimum, along with John Wall's joined now by Robin's Lee, who was director of data protection, product marketing and L E M C Rob. Good to see you, sir. >> Hey, Joan. >> So you almost want to walk to the first person I saw when I walked in the room the other day? >> You. And >> now you won't be one of the last on effort to tell Shy, Who is the director of Data protection and Cloud native APS. Adele AMC Effort. Good to see you, sir. Good to see you. Yeah, First off, let's just let's just talk about the world of data protection in general here by sucking multi and hybrid and all these things. Your world's changing a little bit, right? Because of these new environments in these new opportunities. So if you could just paint that 30,000 foot picture first off thematically, how how your world is evolving. >> Yeah. I mean, I think the key would indebted protection is data, you know, and I think that wherever it is created, and wherever it is managed, customers need to look after it. You know this? The old adage that there's only two things that customers worry about one is their employees, and two, is there data. So as we've seen the adoption of of Cloud is a A zone infrastructure model on you're starting to see many customers extend their own premises infrastructure to the cloud on using the cloud for production level applications. They realize that on often they're told, you gotta do something about your data. So that's led to all vendors and especially ourselves over the last several years, really expanding the portfolio and the capabilities that we have from a non premises centric environment to the multi class. >> Yeah, so every ah, a lot of discussion about kubernetes. Before we get into that, you've got cloud native in your title, and Rob talked about data and talk about the applications I'm hoping you can bring us inside is to you know, what's different when we're talking about cloud native applications that from a data protection standpoint, you know, what do you have to think about differently? Is it the micro Service's architecture in containers Fundamentally changed the way things are done, is it, You know, similar what we've done in the past? >> Definitely. We see customers. Some customers are taking what they head back now and they move it in tow. Cloud native infrastructures. A lot of customers are building new applications and new workloads, and they build it on top off new applications. So they basically building a whole new set off applications and infrastructure and want to combine in together and they come to us on Dad, ask us, How do I protect this? And these things spin up, spin down, move around. They have very different life cycle than the traditional applications. >> Okay, Yeah, it's funny. You know, Rob, I think back to you know, it's like tape. You know how we dealt this because of the environment versus disc versus, you know, containerized application. Buoyed by the time I want to set something up isn't that gone and things move around all over the place. It's You gotta put a different different types of environments than you need to span. All of these >> I was chatting with with every earlier, and we were talking about what? What's what's changed, kind of in the last couple of years around the deployment and usage of of kubernetes, the deployment of containers. And after he was saying that one of the most fundamental changes is the introduction of persistent volumes on a Sooners. Persistency comes into the mix. You know, that's where things start to change. And, you know, Jeffrey's phone started ringing with respect to hate. What are you doing to bring dead protection into you know, this environment? >> I think two years ago, everything was Toby stateless on then suddenly, people understand that's not enough. You need to add states some states to existing applications. And then the notion of persistent volumes came along and then customers and developers so that it's actually working quite nicely. And they started relying more and more on moving more state in tow, their applications running on containers, environments. So the first thing that customers ask us about is where I store my data. Where's the primary volume that is done by our storage folks? The next question is, how do I protect my data? And this is where we come into the picture. And we offer an architecture that is built for containers environment and takes care off that life cycle that we talked about before. Containers are coming and going. You need to protect the data and the containers, the data and the meta data together in order to bring that protection level of customers. Looks from, >> you know, as as the concerns about data protection have been elevated now and sea sweet discussions now, um has that created a different approach, or maybe a change of tone or tenor from your clients to you, because the discussions are being elevated in their own businesses. And and so there's Is there a different kind of attention being paid to this or different kinds of concerns that maybe 34 years ago? Yeah, >> I mean, it's interesting. I mean, one of things we were on every couple of years is a ah, global study. We called it the Global Day Protection Index. This year, we we interviewed 2200 i t. Decision makers and we kind of asked them about you know, how how are they value in dead protection and also how the valuing data and the one thing that has definitely changed is that the value of data to them has become Maur critically important. I think it's always been important, but I think you know, if they start thinking about data is capital, you know they are starting to realize that it's only capital if you've got it. If you don't have it, it's It's nothing Thio >> and it's only yours if you have it. Well, yeah, and nobody else. Absolutely. Right here. >> Every kubernetes courses open source and everybody's got what they're what they're doing in it. You've got announcement, some work you're doing with VM, where it's open source. Also bring us inside a little bit. Valero, how did we get to this point? You know this, you know, part of the C n c f. Yet it kind of being submitted, or how does that fit into the whole community? >> Yeah, sure. So, as you said and we talked about earlier this week with Beth and people at the protection announcements We are working with collaboration with Valero now part off Veum, where in orderto being that data protection solution So Valero is an open source projects. It's out there in the open. You have thousands off stars get up. Stars are very popular among the Dev Ops community about communities users you can hear about it from customers that are looking for for solutions. There is very good at backing up cluster containers and applications. And we have a lot of experience in enterprise data protection making sure that you have a solution that, um, has compliance reporting. You contract your data, you can define policies scheduling all of that eso we are combining these two and collaborating with Valero in orderto have a solution that answers. Boston is off the back of that mean and they just want to go home knowing that the production environment is protected, the and the develops people in the communities administrators and they just want toe, get the volume and forget about the protection. Everybody can work in their environment with the tools that they know with permissions that they want, and they can both work together and be happy. And the companies that we work with are the ones that have good relationship between the devil steam and the backup administrators. And they see that the same table and talk to us, and everybody tells us what they want and what they need. As a result, we build a solution so that we'll be able to answer the needs of both of them. >> So do you have to build sometimes those relationships within a company to get them to talk or collaborate in a more conducive environment cause you see all kinds, right? I mean, you see, the full range just talked by then a free that some very successful, some very constructive, maybe some that that aren't on the same page agent. So that's almost part of your responsibility. Coming before you even get to where you could talk about the work, we've got to talk about the collaboration. Yeah, that they're not area >> we really come When there is a story, people try to move their applications to production. The developers are really already working on something, and now the developers want volumes on the I T ops people. Tell them No, no, no. If you can't protect it. According to our rules. We will not pass the audience. We can do that for you, and that creates the friction inside those teams in the organization that we talked with. There is recognition off that already and now they come together to the table and they want to hear something that would they would be able to work with us both on the management on the I T ops and and management on cube control and what develops people are using. >> And it's it's large companies that are coming in talking to us. And I think, you know, when you get a large companies, quite often you have some more of these things different fiefdoms of, of, of users inside. But because they're large companies, they have, you know, certain requirements from regulations and compliance is perspective. So they have those concerns, but and every has been saying is we look at the early design partners, customers that were looking to work with, you know, the big the big companies coming to us. >> Rob, can you just help us understand? We talked about Valero there says some open, soft, soft, soft words. That's the power tech. Just sit on top of that >> s Oh, it's a great question. So, you know, as you know, we introduced power protects after exile technologies world. It started shipping to customers at the end of July. And Coop, in any support, is really the first example of what we said that we were going to be able to do, which is more rapidly bring new workload to new capabilities into our power, protect softer offering than we've ever been able to do before. You know, we're really embarking on a quarterly release cadence, you know, which will allow us to, you know, to do things that, you know in our existing portfolio are released cadences. What's being measured in in many, many months and quite often is long as a year and beyond. So what we will do is the tech preview that we that we announced this week. You know, we will roll that out in a nup coming release in production on that will become available to any of the parent protect software users. So right within the power protect software match me interface. You know that has the VMS support Oracle sequel in file systems. We'll add the additional workload support have been able to protect kubernetes using the same workloads, the abilities to create protection policies and I'm interested every is is with protection policies. Because that she was saying about how the environment can change quite rapidly is that by using a policy, you don't need to watch for those changes as changes happen, the policy. We'll keep track of what it needs to do as far as protecting the new applications as they come up and have to go away. >> What happens is the ones we find. The policies are the arty operations in the back apartments. They want to comply with the rules that they have, and they define the gold, silver, bronze policies, whatever have you and then they can give it to the Cuban, said Means. And, the criminalist admits, can say OK, these are my volumes. These are more applications I will just use keep control and potatoes objects We will discover that will automatically create a schedule that would create that that backup. So in essence, the community suddenly doesn't need really need to care about the compliance rules they need to care about policies and the Becca pod mean can take care of other wrist >> and the applications of driving the policies and not not the other way around. >> Yeah, I mean, the creepiest ad means are used to defining policies in terms of five day provisions, their storage, for example. We want to do the same in the data protection area. >> So as far as things like retention periods, as far as whether or not the data needs to be replicated, where not the data needs to be a tear to the cloud that those are all things that the I T admin team can do on it sort of separates kind of orchestration and governance is, is a big part of perfect ex often >> love to get your viewpoint on is data protection historically was not one of the faster moving things in the I T. Realm Last two or three years at VM World, it's been one of the hottest topic, I said. You know, the keynote on Monday felt like we were kubernetes world. Not quite Cube con just yet, because there's a lot of projects there, but I walked down to the the show floor. It's not storage world like Thursday. Its data protection world is Cygnus lots of glowing parties of people so that customers, you know, the embracing change. And what does that mean for your portfolio? >> Yeah, I mean, it's interesting. I mean, I think over the years, if you think about where you go if you want to learn about data protection, VM world is probably one of the best shows to go to because >> we're >> all here. I mean, I mean, you know when you know, you know, I've you know, I've been crazy enough to be in the debt protection business for almost 15 years now. Um, and it hasn't changed. If you if you want to talk to data protection vendors than VM World, is a really good show to go to. You know, I think that that for us, you know what I am. Where has done is It's It's It's It's It's provoked provided a common foundation, you know, And that's also providing a common foundation to get us from on premises into the multi cloud environment. So once she developed, um uh, great data protection solutions in the van, where environment is that you're your target market becomes quite broad because, you know, there's so much VM were virtual ization out there in the market, but you're absolutely correct. Is that you on the show floor? And it's It's It's an interesting sight >> thinking. In addition to that, you also have obviously been at this in the show, and I think what we have seen over the last couple of years is that customers were coming tow us, asking for solutions. And this is why we were able, with the power, protect architecture and platform to innovate more quickly and respond to those faster changing trends. Because now you have persistency of volumes. Now you have protection. The M were acquired. Help tell, you know, we could work together on creating the solution. >> Yeah, absolutely. Have we've been at the Cube contract for number years. Help Theo. Of course, the president's last year VM were had a bigger presence, but that maturation of the storage component with something we knew would take time. You know, we watched it in the virtual ization world. Those of us that lived through that, you know, 10 to 15 years ago and container ization. It's starting to reach that maturity, and we're getting that inflection point >> if you also want to think about the announcement that path made on the keynote on Monday where he said we're goingto work much more with park protects, toe address, spot data protection capabilities. This is one of the things we're collaborating With the help to your team, we're contributing to the open source. We're building together things that can move in the pace off communities and address the needs off our more legacy. Companies that needed protection with complaints. >> So, Rob, that will keep you in business for another 15 years? >> I hope >> so, gentlemen. Thanks for the time. Thank you. Appreciate that. Especially on your birthday. Right? Tomorrow. Tomorrow, Right here. Tomorrow. Your birthday home for that Happy early birthday. >> Thank you very much. >> We should have a cute cake, but should especially >> the end of the day. >> I know, I know. I'll end of the day. We got something better than a cake. Gentlemen. Thank you again. Thanks. We'll be back in a little bit. Streaming content. Continuing coverage here. Avian World 2019 with some final thoughts from our panelists. Just a little bit. See on the other side for that