>> It's The Cube covering Fortinet Security Summit brought to you by Fortinet. >> Hey and welcome back to the cubes coverage of Fortinets championship series. Cybersecurity summit here in Napa valley Fortinet is sponsoring the PGA tour event, kicking off the season here, and the cubes here as part of the coverage. And today is cybersecurity day where they bring their top customers in. We got Glenn Katz SVP, general manager, Comcast Enterprise Solutions. Glenn, thanks for coming on The Cube. Thanks for taking time out of your day. - Thank you no This is great. This is great. >> Interviewer: Tell me to explain what you guys do in the Comcast business enterprise group. >> That's our Comcast business. We're a part of Comcast overall. I always like to explain what Comcast really is. If you look at Comcast, it's a technology innovation company by itself that happens to focus on communications and media type of, of markets, right? And if you look at the Comcast side there on the communication side, it's really everything residential with customers. Then there's the us Comcast business and we're the fastest growing entity over the last 15 years within Comcast. And we started in small business, voice, video, and data to small businesses. Then we moved up to provide fiber ethernet type of a transport to mid-market. And then my group started in 2014. And what we do is focus on managed services. It doesn't matter who the transport layer is for enterprise Fortune 1000 type companies. And then when you layer in all these managed wider network services. So that's my business unit. >> Interviewer: Well, we appreciate it we're a customer by the way in Palo Alto >> Glen: Oh great >> So give a shout out to you guys. Let's get into the talk you're giving here about cybersecurity, because I mean, right now with the pandemic, people are working at home. Obviously everyone knows the future of work is hybrid now you're going to see more decentralized defy and or virtual spaces where people are going to want to work anywhere and businesses want to have that extension, right? What people are talking about, and it's not new, but it's kind of new in the sense of reality, right? You've got to execute. This is a big challenge. >> Glen: It is - What's your thoughts on that, >> Well it's a big challenge. And one of the things that I'll try to, I'll speak to this afternoon here, which is at least from the enterprise perspective, which includes the headquarters, the enterprise, the branch locations, the digital commerce, everywhere else, commerce is being done. It's not just at a store anymore. It's everywhere. Even if you only have a store and then you have the remote worker aspect. I mean, they do that to your point earlier. We're not in that fortress sort of security mentality anymore. There's no more DMZs it's done. And so you've got to get down to the zero trust type of network architecture. And how do you put that together? And how does that work? Not just for remote workers that have to access the enterprise applications, but also for simple, you know, consumers or the business customers of these, of these enterprises that have to do business from over the phone or in the store. >> Interviewer: What are the some of the challenges you hear from your customers, obviously, business of the defend themselves now the, the, the attacks are there. There's no parameters. You mentioned no fortress. There's more edge happening, right? Like I said, people at home, what are the top challenges that you're hearing from customers? >> So the biggest challenge, and this is, I would think this is, this is mostly focused on the enterprise side of it is that the is two interesting phenomenons going on. This is sort of beginnings before the pandemic. And then of course the pandemic, the role of the CIO has been elevated to now, they have a real seat at the table. Budgets are increasing to a point, but the expertise needed in these, in these it departments for these large enterprises, it's, it's impossible to do what you were just talking about, which is create a staff of people that can do everything from enterprise applications, e-commerce analytics, the network. How do you secure that network all the way down to the end users? Right? So it's that middle portion. That's the biggest challenge because that takes a lot of work and a lot of effort. And that's where folks like Comcast can come in and help them out. That's their biggest challenge. They can handle the enterprise, they can handle the remote workers. They can handle their own applications, which are continually trying to be, you know, have to be it's competitive out there. It's that middle area, that communications layer that their challenged with. >> Interviewer: Yeah. And John Madison's EVP, CMO Ford. It's always talking about negative unemployment in cybersecurity. Nevermind just the staff that do cyber >> Glen: That's exactly right, that's given. If you're a business, you can't hire people fast enough and you might not have the budget for you want to manage service. So how do you get cyber as a service? >> Glen: Well, so it's even bigger than that. It's not just the cyber as a service because it's now a big package. That's what SASE really is SASE is Secure Access Service Edge. But think of it where I think of it is you've got remote users, remote workers, mobile apps on one side, you've got applications, enterprise or commercial that are now moved into different cloud locations. And in the middle, you've got two real fundamental layers, the network. And, and that includes uh, the actual transport, the software defined wide area, networking components, everything that goes with that, that's the network as a service. And then you've got the secure web gateway portion, which includes everything to secure all the data, going back and forth between your remote laptop, the point of sales. And let's say the cloud based applications, right? So that's really the center stage right there. >> Interviewer: And the cloud has brought more service at the top of the stack. I mean, people thought down stack up stack is kind of like a geeky terms. You're talking about innovation. If you're down stack with network and transport, those are problems that you have to solve on behalf of your customers And make that almost invisible. And that's your job >> That's our job. That's our job is to service provider What's interesting is though back in the day, I mean, when, I mean, back in the day, it could have been 10 years ago in 20. You really, you know, you had stable networks, they were ubiquitous, they were expensive and they were slow. That's kind of the MPLS legacy TDM. Yeah. So you just put them in and you walked away and you still did all your enterprise. You still did all of your applications, but you had your own private data centers. Everything was nicer. It was that fortress mentality right now. It's different. Now everybody needs broadband. Well guess what? Comcast is a big company, but we don't have broadband everywhere. ATT doesn't have it. Verizon doesn't have it Charter doesn't have it. Right. So you need, so now to think about that from enterprise, I'm going to go, I'll give you an example. All of our customers to fulfill a nationwide network, just for the broadband infrastructure, that's, you know, redundant. If you want to think of it that way we, we source probably 200 to 300 different providers to provide an ubiquitous network nationwide for broadband. Then we wrap a layer of the SD wan infrastructure for that, as an example, over the top of that, right? You can't do that by yourself. I mean, people try and they fail. And that's the role of a managed service provider like us is to pull all that together. Take that away. We have that expertise. >> Interviewer: I think this is a really interesting point. Let's just unpack that just for a second. Yeah. In the old days, we want to do an interconnect. You had an agreement. You did, you have your own stuff, do an interconnected connect. >> Glen: Yep. >> Now this, all this mishmash, you got to traverse multiple hops, different networks. >> Glen: That's right >> Different owners, different don't know what's on that. So you guys have to basically stitch this together, hang it together and make it work. And you guys put software on the top and make sure it's cool is that how it works? >> Glen: Yeah. Software and different technology components for the SD wan. And then we would deliver the shore and manager all that. And that's, that's where I really like what's happening in the industry, at least in terminology, which is they try, you have to try to simplify that because it's very, very complicated, but I'm going to give you the network as a service mean, I'm going to give you all the transport and you have to don't have to worry about it. I'm going to rent you the, the SD wan technology. And then I'm going to have in my gateways all these security components for a firewall as a service, zero trust network access, cloud brokerage services. So I will secure all of your data as you go to the cloud and do all of that for you. That's really what we, that's what we bring to the table. And that's what is really, really hard for enterprises to do today. Just because they can't, the expertise needed to do that is just not there. >> Interviewer: Well, what's interesting is that first you have to do it now because the reality of your business now is you don't do it. You won't have customers, but you're making it easier for them. So they don't have to think about it. - [Glen] That's right. >> But now you bring in hybrid networking hybrid cloud, they call it or multi-cloud right. It's essentially a distributed computing and essentially what you're doing, but with multiple typologies, >> Glen: that's right. >> Interviewer: I got an edge device. - [Glen] That's right. If I'm a business. - [Glen] That's right. >> That's where it could be someone working at home >> Glen: That's right. - Or it could be my retail >> Or whatever it could be. So edge is just an extension of what you guys already do. And is that right? Am I getting that right? >> Glen: Yeah that's exactly right. And, and, but the point is, is to make it economic and to make it really work for the end user. If you're a branch, you may have a, a application that's still being run via VPN, but you also need wifi internet for your customers because you want to use your mobile device. They've entered into your store and you want to be able to track that right. And push something to them. And then you've got the actual store applications could be point of sales could be back of house comparing that's going up to AWS. Azura whatever. Right. And that all has to be, it all has to come from one particular branch and someone has to be able to manage that capability. >> Interviewer: It's funny, - Its so different >> Interviewer: just as you're talking, I'm just thinking, okay. Facial recognition, high, high bandwidth requirements, >> Glen: Huge high bandwidth requirements >> Processing at the edge becomes huge. >> Glen: It does. >> So that becomes a new dynamic. >> Glen: It does. It's got to be more dynamic. It's not a static IP end point. >> Glen: Well, I'll give you another an example. Let's say it's, it seems silly, but it's so important from a business perspective, your quick service restaurant, the amount of digital sales from applications are just skyrocketing. And if you yourself, and particularly in the pandemic, you order something, or that goes up to the cloud, comes back through, goes to the point of sales. And then the, the back of house network in a particular restaurant, if that doesn't get there, because one line of you only have one internet connection and it's down, which sometimes happens, right? You lose business, you lose that customer. It's so important. So what's being pushed down to the edge is, you know, reliable broadband hybrid networks, where you have a primary wire line and a secondary wire line, maybe a tertiary wireless or whatever. And then a box, a device that can manage between those two so that you can keep that 99.9, 9% availability at your branch, just for those simple types of applications. >> Interviewer: You know Glenn, you as you're talking most people, when we talk tech, like this is mostly inside the ropes, Hey, I can get it. But most people can relate with the pandemic because they've ordered with their phone on - [Glen] Exactly right >> With the QR code. - [Glen] That's exactly right >> They see the menu - [Glen] That's right >> They get now what's happening - [Glen] That's right that their phone is now connected to the service. >> Glen: That's right >> This is not going away. The new normal. >> Glen: No, it's absolutely here. And what I've seen are there are many, many companies that already knew this and understood this pre pandemic. And they were, they had already changed their infrastructure to really fit what I was calling that network as a service in the SASE model, in different ways. Then there were a bunch that didn't, and I'm not going to name names, but you can look at those companies and you can see how they're, they're struggling terribly. But then there was this. Now there's a, a much bigger push and privatization again, see, I was sending, Hey, I asked for this before. It's not like the CIO didn't know, but management said, well, maybe it wasn't important. Now it is. And so you're seeing this actual amazing surge in business requests and requirements to go to the model that we're all talking about here, which is that SASE type of implementation high-speed broadband. That's not going away for the same reason. And you need a resilient network, right? Yes. >> Interesting. Best practice. Let's just take that advice to the, to the audience. I want to get your thoughts because people who didn't do any R and D or experimentation prior to the pandemic, didn't have cloud. Wasn't thinking about this new architecture got caught flat-footed. -Exactly. >> And they're hurting and or out of business. >> Correct. >> If people who were on the right side of that took advantage as a tailwind and they got lifts. >> That's exactly right. >> So what is the best practice? How should a business think about putting their toe in the water a little bit or jumping in and getting immersed in the new, new architecture? What advice would you give? Because people don't want to be in the wrong side of history. >> No, they don't. >> What's your guy's best practice? >> I may sound biased, but I'm really not trying to be biased. And this'll be some of the I'll speak about here later today. You have to try it. You, as the end user, the enterprise customer, to, to fulfill these types of needs, you've got to really probe your managed service providers. You've got to understand which ones, not just can give you a nice technology presentation and maybe a POC, but who's going to be there for the longterm who has the economic wherewithal to be able to give the resources needed to do what I was talking about, which is you're going to outsource your entire network to me and your sh, and a good portion of your security for the network to a service provider. that service provider has to be able to provide all that has to be able to have the financial capabilities, to be able to provide you with an operating type of model, not you have to buying equipment all the time. That service provider has to be able to have teams that can deliver all of that 200 to 300 different types of providers aggregate all that, and then be there for day two. Simple thing. Like if you know, most companies, if you're not a really large location, you can't afford to, you know, double types of routers that are connected. And if one fails you have fail over, right, most of them will have one router and they'll have, but they'll have two backup paths. Well, what happens is that router or switch, single switch fails? You need to have a meantime to repair a four hours. I mean, that's kind of basic and well do that. How do you do that? You've got to have depots around the entire country. These are the types of questions that any enterprise customers should be probing their managed service provider, right? It's not just about the technology. It's about how can you deliver this and assure this going forward. >> And agility too cause when, if, if things do change rapidly, being agile... >> Exactly >> means shifting and being flexible with your business. >> That's exactly right. And that's important. That's a really important question. And the agility comes from this financial agility, right? Like new threat, new box. I want, I want this old one. I'm going to upgrade to a different type of service. The service providers should be able to do that without me having to force you to go get some more CapEx and buy some more stuff. Cause that's number one. But the other agility is every enterprise is different. Every enterprise believes that its network is the only network in the world and they have opinions and they've tested different technologies. And you're going to have to adapt a little bit to that. And if you don't, you're not going to get out of this. >> It's funny. The old days non-disruptive operations was like a benefit, we have non-disrupt- now it's a table stakes. You can't disrupt businesses. - You can't. You can't at the branch at the remote worker. If you're on a zoom call or whatever, or you're on a teams call, we've all been there. We're still doing it. If it breaks in the middle of a presentation to a customer that's problem. >> Glenn thanks for coming on the cube with great insight. >> Oh great. This was fun. >> Are you exciting and plays golf? You're going to get out there on the range? >> I played, I played golf a lot when I was younger, but I haven't. And so I have a few other things I do, but I guess I'm going to have to learn now that we're also a sponsor of PGA, so yeah, for sure. >> Great. Well, great to have you on - All right thank you and great talk. Thanks for coming on and sharing your insight. >> This was great. I appreciate okay. >> Keep coverage here. Napa valley with Fortinet's Cybersecurity Summit as part of their PGA tour event, that's happening this weekend. I'm John for the Cube. Thanks for watching.

>>Everyone welcome back to the cubes, unstoppable domains partner showcase. I'm John furrier, host of the cube. This segment, this session is about expansion into Asia, Pacific and Europe for unstoppable domains. It's a hot start-up in the web three area, really creating a new innovation around NFTs crypto, single sign-on and digital identity giving users the power like they should. We've got two great guests, the Jod ramen head of Europe and Neil Katz on is Neil I, our head of Asia. So John Neil, welcome to this cube and let's talk about the expansion. It's not really expansion. The global economy is global, but showcase here about unstoppable was going to Europe. Thanks for coming on. >>Thanks John. >>So we're living in a global world, obviously crypto blockchain, decentralized applications. You're starting to see mainstream adoption, which means the shift is happening. There are more apps coming and it means more infrastructure and things got to get easier, right? So, you know, reduce the steps it takes to do stuff makes the Wallace better. Give people more secure. Access can control the day. This is what unstoppable is all about. You guys are in the middle of it. You're on this wave. What is the potential of web three with unstoppable and in general in Asia and in Europe, >>I can go first. So now let's look at the Asia market. I mean, typically we see the us market, the Europe markets for typical web two.zero software and infrastructure is definitely the larger markets with us, typically accounting for about 60% and you know, Europe about 20 to 30% and Asia has always been small, but we see in this whole world of blockchain, crypto web three.zero Asia already has about 116 million users. They have more than 35 local exchanges. And if you really look at the number of countries in terms of the rate of adoption of many of the Asian countries, which probably would have never even heard of like Vietnam actually topping the list, right? One of the reasons that this is happening again, if you go through the Asian development banks, latest report, you have these gen Z's and millennials of that's 50% of the Asian population. >>And if you really look at 50% of the Asian population, that's 1.1 billion people out of the total, 1.8 billion gen Z and millennials that you have in the world. And these folks are digital native they're people. In fact, our mobile first and millennials. Many of us like myself at least are people who are digital. And 20% of the world's economy is currently digital and the rest 40 to 50%, which is going to happen. It's going to happen in the web three dot four world. And that's going to be driven by millennials and gen Zs. I think that's why this whole space is so exciting because it's being driven by the users by the new generation. I mean, that's my broad thought on this little thing. >>I want to just comment on Asia also in the other areas where mobile first came, you had the end, the younger demographics, absolutely driving the change because they're like, well, I don't want the old way. They've got, they can write, write from scratch at the beginning, they're using the technologies that has propelled the crypto world. I mean, that is absolutely true. Everyone's kind of seeing that. And that's now influencing some of these developer nations, like say in Europe, for instance, and even north America, I think years more advanced than north America in my opinion, but we'll get to that. Oh, so potential in Europe. So John could take us through your thoughts on as head of Europe for >>Absolutely so news, right? I think the issue is way ahead in terms of gen Z user golfing, critical Jordan was actually a distant second, but it's a rising tool that actually has the highest transaction. Like they will be retro or last year and a half. And you know, if you dig a bit deeper, I'd say, arguably, I think the opportunity in web three is perhaps the largest and perhaps it can mean the most withdrawal Jora for the last decade has been trailing behind Asia and north America when it comes to. But I think unicorns and I think that we can provide a step change opportunity. This belief for me, stems from the fact that Jordan on a seat, right? Like for example, GDPR is focused on enabling real data ownership. And I think I recently read a paper out of Stanford by Patrick Henson speaks about being the best bot paper, enabling patient sovereign. >>So what that means is you just spend tool the data they've been to the internet and they harness the value from it. And on one hand while, you know, verb is enabling that regulation that could bring that forward when she actually brings it into action. So I think with what enablement better regulation, and we'll see more hubs like the crypto valley in Switzerland popup that we're bring, I think normal regulation, the right regulation. We can expect what info capital for builder talent that then drives more adoption. So I think the prospects for Europe in terms of usage, as well as builders are quite right. >>Yeah. And I think also you guys are in areas where the cultural shift is so dramatic. You mentioned Asia that they have demographics. Even the entrepreneurial culture in Europe right now is booming. You look at all the venture back startups and the young generation building companies. And again, cloud computing is a big part of that as obviously. But look at compared to the United States, you go back 15 years ago, Europe was way behind on, on the startup scene. Now it's booming and pumping on all cylinders and kind of points at this cultural shift. It's almost like a generational, you know, it's like the digital hippies changing the world. You know, they're web three. It's kinda, I don't want to be web to web two is so old. You know, I don't want to do that. And it's all because it's changing, right? And there are things that inadequate with web two on the naming system, also the arbitrage around fake information, bots users being manipulated, and also, you know, merchandise and monetize through these portals. And that's, that's kind of ending. So talk about the dynamic of web two, three at those areas. You've got users and you've got companies who build applications, they're going to shift and be forced in our opinion, and want to get a reaction to that. Do you think applications are going to have to be web three or users will reject them? >>Yeah, I think I jumped in and I'm not Neil's sport. I think the, the back is built on Q principles, right? Decentralization or ship and compostability. And I think these are binary. So, you know, if, if I look far down the future, I don't see a future where you have just whipped V I think there's gonna be a coexistence or cooperation between bamboo companies. I think there's going to be a sliding scale to decentralization versus PlayStation similarity, you know, ownership. And I think users will find what works best for them in different contexts. I think what installed this link is potentially providing the identity system correctly and that's, we were powerful that account being better on blockchains, then the naming system we had for web, right? The, the identity system serve focus, Paul, taking that you as a personal identifier that, so blockchain to me mean they're attaching all kinds of attributes that define who you are, the physical and digital world, and then filling out information that you can transact on the basis of. And I think that users would as the or future, right with, you know, InBev to more of the users were essentially consumers or readers of the internet and in bed with more technology platforms taking shape and getting proliferation that you would see more than just being actually writers, publishers, and developers on the internet. And they were value owning the data and to harness the most model valuable. So I think a basketball with bonds, and I think that's the future. I see that >>Well, I think you put it very, very nicely. So the other thing you've covered most of the points, I think, but I'm seeing a lot of different things that are happening in the ground. I think a lot of the garments, a lot of the web two.zero players, the traditional banks, these guys are not sitting quiet on the blockchain space. There's a lot of pilots happening in the blockchain space, right? I'm mean I can give you real life examples. I mean, one of the biggest example is in my home state of Maharashtra and Mumbai is they actually partnered with the polygon MarTech, right? Actually built a private blockchain based capability to, you know, kind of deliver your COVID vaccination certificates with the QR code it. And that's the only way they could deliver that kind of volumes in that shorter time. But the kind of user control the user control the user has on the data that could only be possible because of blockchain. >>Of course, it's still private because it's healthcare data. Now, they still want to keep it, or, you know, something that's not fully on a blockchain, but that is something, a similarly view. There is a consortium of about nine banks who have actually been trying to work on making things like remittances or trade finance, much, much easier. I mean, remittances through a traditional web two.zero world is very, very costly. And especially in the Asian countries, but a lot of people from Southeast Asia work across the world and send back money home. It's a very costly and a time taking affair. So they have actually partnered and built a blockchain based capability. Again, in a pilot stage, we kind of reduce the transaction costs. Like for example, if we just look at the trade finance space where there are 14 million traders who do 2.4, $5 trillion of transaction, now they were able to actually reduce the time that it takes from eight to nine days to about two to three days. So to add onto what you're saying, I think these two worlds are going to meet and meet very soon. And when they meet what they need is a single digital identity, a human readable way of being able to send and receive and do commerce. I think that's where I see unstoppable domains, very nicely positioned to be able to integrate these two worlds. So that's, that's my thought on >>Great point. I was going to get into which industries and kind of what areas you see in your air and geographies, but it's a good point about saving time. I liked how you brought that up because in these new waves, you either got to reduce the steps. It takes to do something or save time, make it easy. And these are the, this is the successful formula in anything, whether it's an app or UI or whatever, but what specifically are they doing in your areas? And, and what about unstoppable? Are they attracted to, is it because of the identity? Is it because of the, the apps is because of the single sign on what is that? What is the reason that they're leaning in and unpacking this further into their pilots? >>Do you want to take that because >>I am having these dumping it'd be warranted. So I think, and let me clarify the question, John you're, you're talking about companies looking at departments of our production partner. >>Yeah. What are they seeing and what are they seeing as the value that these pilots we heard from Neil Canada around the, the, the financial industry and obviously gaming gaming's one it's obvious, huge financial healthcare. I mean, these are obviously verticals that are going to be heavily impacted in a positive way. Where, what are they seeing as the value what's getting them motivated to do these pilots? Why they, why they jumping in with, with both feet, if you will, on these projects, is it because it's saving money? Is it time? What, or, or both, is it ease of use? Is it the, is it the user's expectations trying to tease out how you guys see that evolving? >>Yeah. Yeah. I think, I think the, the, this is still spaces. The movement is going very fast, but I think the space has been young. And right now a lot of these companies are seeing the potential that, that few offers. And I think the key dimensions, like the possibility isn't leadership ownership. So I think the key thing I'm seeing in you is these web companies seeing the momentum and looking to harness that book by enabling bridges web. One of the key trends in water has been FinTech. I think over the last five to six years, we'll have the Revolut and 26 platforms, new banks and super finance. So perhaps rising to the forefront and they are all enabling or connecting a page with them in some shape and form either any of them creating a crypto, some are launching their own native wallets. And these are essentially ways that they can one crack users. >>So the gen Z who are looking for war with finance to get them on board, but also to look to, you know, enable more adoption by data on users, one, not using these services that potentially create new revenue streams and, and create allocation of capital that they could not access to have access to otherwise. So I think that's one brand I'm seeing over here. I think the other key trend is in your use has been games. And again, that links are damaged. We have to, that is called the MetAware. So a lot of game companies are looking to step into game five, which is again, completely different. This is more work traditional game companies use use similarly metal versus we, again, worship creates a different business model and they see that users and gamers of the future were born to engage with that versus just being more eyes on the business of question or our ads. And I think that's something that they're, you know, becoming a bit off and quickly the space launching the one better versus, or are gained by applications or creating a comfortability with these, these, these, >>You know, I wanted to get it to this point, but I was going to ask about the community empowerment piece of this equation because she's identity is about the user's identity, which implies they're part of a community. Web three is very convenient community centric, but you mentioned gaming. I mean, people who have been watching the gaming world like ourselves, know that communities and marketplaces have been very active for years, many years, you know, over 15 years community, you know, games, currency in game activity has been out there. Right. But siloed within the games themselves. So now it seems that that paradigm is coming in and empowering all communities. Is this something that you guys see and agree with? And if so, what's different about that? What, how are our, how our communities being empowered? I guess that's the question. >>Yeah. I can maybe take that too. So, I mean, I've also heard of vaccine I'm in a 40% of their user base in Vietnam. And the average earning that a person makes in a month out of playing this game is more than the, you know, national daily or, you know, minimum wage that is there. Right. So that's the kind of potential actually going back as a combination of actually answering your earlier question, I think, or, and about what Sadat said, what's really unique in Asia is we still have a lot of unbanked people, right? So if you really look at the total unbanked population of the world, it's 1.6 billion and 24% of that as a nation, almost 375 million people are an issue. So these are people who do not have access to finance or credit. So the whole idea is how do we get these people on to a banking system on to peer peer, to peer lending out kind of peer to peer finance kind of capabilities? >>I think, you know, again, unstoppable domains kind of helps in that, right? If you just look@thepurethatthree.zero world and the complex, you know, technical way in which, you know, money or other crypto is transferred from one wallet to the other, it's very difficult for an un-banked person who probably cannot even do basic communication, cannot read and write, but actually be able to do it, but something that's very human readable, something that's very easy for him to understand something that's visual, something that he can see on his mobile with, you know, two G network. We are not talking of the world is talking about 5g, but there are parts of Asia which are still using two G and you know, two point 5g kind of network. Right? So I think that's one key use case. I think the banks are trying to solve because for them, this is a whole new customer segment. >>And sorry, I actually went back a little bit to your earlier question, but you know, coming back to this whole community building, right? So on March 8th, we're launching something called us women of web 3.0, that is three. This is basically to again, empower. So if you, again, look at Asia, you know, women, you know, need a lot of training. They need a lot of enablement for them to be able to leverage the power of that three.zero. I can talk about India because being from India, a lot of the women do not, you know, they, they do all the, you know, small businesses, but the money is not taken by middlemen or taken by their husbands, but fundamentally the money comes to them because that's what they use to educate their children. And it's the same thing in a lot of other, Southeast Asian countries as well. I think it's very important to build those communities or communities of women entrepreneurs. I think this is a big opportunity to really get the section of society, which probably, you know, will take 10 more years. If we go for the normal one to web two.zero progression where the power is with corporations and not with the individual. >>And that's a great announcement, by the way, you mentioned the $10 million worth of domains being issued out for this is democratization is what it's all about. Again, this is, you know, a new revolution. I mean, this is a new thing, so great stuff, more education, more learning, and can get the banks up and running, get those people banking because once they're banking, they get wallets, right? So they need the wallet. So let's get to the real meat here. You guys are in the territory, Europe and Asia, where there's a lot of wallets. There's a lot of exchanges because that's, they're not in the United States is few of them there, but most of them outside the United States and you got a lot of di apps developing, you know, decentralized applications. Okay. So you've got all this coming together and your territory, what's the strategy is that what's the strategy. How are you gonna attack that? You've got the wallets, you've got the exchanges and you've got D applications. You, >>Yeah. so I think just quickly there, I think one point is the Neil very expressive, beautifully is the final conclusion that that is something that has been inspired me, how better we can make it more inclusive that inspired mine. Yeah. I think for us, I think when a bit at the base star, when it comes to your right and the, the key focus in, in, in terms of our approach would be that the more do two dates, one, we want increase the utility of these domains. And the second thing is we weren't via proliferation with, with, with our partners. So when I speak on utility, I think utility is when you have a universe like depart, which is a domain name, and then you have these attributes around it, right? What, what that defines your identity. So in, in the context in Europe, we would look to find partners to help us enrich that identity around the domain name. >>And that adds value for users in terms of acquiring new leads and new blinds. And all the other element comes proliferation. I think it's about working with all those crypto and participants, as well as the adjacent companies, parents services who can help us educate current and future upcoming three users about the utility of domain names and help us onboard them to the, the. So I think that's going to be the general focus. I think the key is that as well, and hopefully it will be having watch regulation, you that allow us to do this at a visual level, but at the outset, I think it's going to be tackling it. Can't be by, can't be identified on this where there's deeper, better patient for and then making sure that we are partnering with local project partners that are demanding for local communities there. So, yeah, that's my view in, >>Oh, I think, yeah. So again, in Asia, once you have a significant part of Manatee living in Asia, right? So obviously I know obviously all the other challenges and the opportunities that we talk about, I think the first area of focus would be educating the people on the massive opportunity that they can not, they have, and if you're able to get them in early, I think it's great for them as well, right? Because by the time, you know, governments regulations and a large banking financial companies move, but if we can get the larger population or, you know, into this whole space, it's, it's good for them. So they are first movers in that space. I think we're doing a lot of things on this worldwide. I think we have done more than a hundred Pasco podcast, just educating people on water's web feed or, or, you know, waters, what are NFP domains, what is defy and, you know, so on and so forth. >>I think it would need some bit of localization customization in Asia, given that, you know, India itself has about 22 languages. And then there are the other countries which each of them have their own local languages and, you know, syntax, semantics and all those things. So I think that that is very important to be able to disseminate the knowledge or though it's it's global. But I think to get the grassroot people to understand the opportunity, I think it would need some amount of work that I think also building communities. I think John, you talked about communities so that such I'd talk about communities. I think it's very important to build communities because communities create ideation. It talks about people share their challenges so that people don't repeat the same mistakes. Also. I think it's very important to build communities based on impressed. I think we all know in the technology world, you can build communities and on telegram, telegram, discard, Twitter spaces and all those things. >>But, you know, again, when we're talking about financial inclusion, we're talking of a different kind of community building. I think that that would be important. And then of course I will, you know, kind of primarily from a company perspective, I think getting the 35 odd exchanges in Asia, the wallets to partner with us, just as an example, you know, they hired till September of last year, about 3,500 apps in just one quarter at double two, 7,000 tabs on their platform. But that is the pace or the speed of innovation that we are seeing on this whole, you know, three dot old space. I think it's very important to get those key partners. We're developing those dots or see the power of single sign on having a human readable, digital identity, being able to seamlessly transfer your assets, digital assets across multiple crypto's across multiple NFT when the market places and so on. So >>Yeah, and I think the whole community thing too is also you seeing the communities being part of certainly in the entertainment area and the artistry creator world, the users are part of the community own it too. So it goes both ways, but this brings up the marketplace too, as well, because you ha you guys have the opportunity to have trust built into the software layer, right? So now you can keep the reputation data. You don't, you can be anonymous, but it's trustworthy versus bots, which we all know bots can be killed and then started again with, and no one knows what the timeline has been around. So, you know, the whole inadequacy of web too, which is just growing pains, right? This is what it'll evolution looks like, you know, next to them, traction layer. So I love that vibe. How advanced do you think that thinking is where people are saying, Hey, we need this abstraction layer. We need this digital identity. We need to start expanding our applications so that the users can move across these and break down those silos where the data is cause that's, this is like the problem, right? It's the data silos that are holding it back. What'd you guys' reaction to that? The, the killing the silos and making it horizontally scalable. >>Yeah, I think it's, it's not problem. It is a problem of people who understand technology. It's a problem of a lot of the people in the business who want to compete effectively against those giants, which are holding all the data. So I think those are the people who will innovate and move again, coming back to financial inclusion, coming back to the unbanked and those guys just want to do their business. They want to live their daily life. I think that's not where you'll see, you will see innovation in a different form, but they're not going to disrupt the disruptors. I think that would be the people that are fintechs. I think they would be the first to move on to something like that. I mean, that's my humble opinion. >>Absolutely. I, I got you on creators, right? So like I said earlier, right, we are heading for a future where more creators on the internet, whether you're publishing, writing something, you're creating video content. And that means that the data they own, because that's their data, they're bringing it to the internet. That's more powerful, more useful, and they should be reprocessed on that basis. So I think people are recognizing that and they've been using the proposal and as they do that, they were warranties systems that enabled them to work permissions with data. They will want to be able to control what the permission and what they want to provide, adapt. And at the end of the day, you know, these applications have to work backwards from customers and keep the customers looking for, but that then, and ask where passport for >>The users want freedom. They want to be able to be connected and not be restricted. They want to freely move around the global internet and do whatever they want with the friends and apps that they want to consume and not feel arbitrage. They don't want to feel like they're kind of nailed into a walled garden and, you know, stuck there and having to come back. It's the new normal. If >>They don't want to be the, they don't want to be the product. They >>Don't want to be the perfect gentlemen. Great to have you on great conversation. We're going to continue this later. Certainly want to keep the updates coming. You guys are in a very hot area in Europe and Asia Pacific. That's where a lot of the action is happening. We see the entrepreneurial activity, the business transformation, certainly with the new paradigm shift and this big wave that's coming. It's here. It's mainstream. Thanks for coming on, sharing your insights. Appreciate it. >>Thanks for the opportunity. >>Great conversation. All the actions moving and happening real fast. This is the cube unstoppable debates partner showcase with I'm John for your host. Thanks for watching.

from the cube studios in palo alto in boston bringing you data-driven insights from the cube and etr this is breaking analysis with dave vellante you know we've often said that the next 10 years in cloud computing won't be like the last ten cloud has firmly planted its footprint on the other side of the chasm with the momentum of the entire multi-trillion dollar tech business behind it both sellers and buyers are leaning in by adopting cloud technologies and many are building their own value layers on top of cloud in the coming years we expect innovation will continue to coalesce around the three big u.s clouds plus alibaba in apac with the ecosystem building value on top of the hardware saw tooling provided by the hyperscalers now importantly we don't see this as a race to the bottom rather our expectation is that the large public cloud players will continue to take cost out of their platforms through innovation automation and integration while other cloud providers and the ecosystem including traditional companies that buy it mine opportunities in their respective markets as matt baker of dell is fond of saying this is not a zero sum game welcome to this week's wikibon cube insights powered by etr in this breaking analysis we'll update you on our latest projections in the cloud market we'll share some new etr survey data with some surprising nuggets and drill into this the important cloud database landscape first we want to take a look at what people are talking about in cloud and what's been in the recent news with the exception of alibaba all the large cloud players have reported earnings google continues to focus on growth at the expense of its profitability google reported that it's cloud business which includes applications like google workspace grew 45 percent to five and a half billion dollars but it had an operating loss of 890 billion now since thomas curion joined google to run its cloud business google has increased head count in its cloud business from 25 000 25 000 people now it's up to 40 000 in an effort to catch up to the two leaders but playing catch up is expensive now to put this into perspective let's go back to aws's revenue in q1 2018 when the company did 5.4 billion so almost exactly the same size as google's current total cloud business and aws is growing faster at the time at 49 don't forget google includes in its cloud numbers a big chunk of high margin software aws at the time had an operating profit of 1.4 billion that quarter around 26 of its revenues so it was a highly profitable business about as profitable as cisco's overall business which again is a great business this is what happens when you're number three and didn't get your head out of your ads fast enough now in fairness google still gets high marks on the quality of its technology according to corey quinn of the duck bill group amazon and google cloud are what he called neck and neck with regard to reliability with microsoft azure trailing because of significant disruptions in the past these comments were made last week in a bloomberg article despite some recent high-profile outages on aws not surprisingly a microsoft spokesperson said that the company's cloud offers industry-leading reliability and that gives customers payment credits after some outages thank you turning to microsoft and cloud news microsoft's overall cloud business surpassed 22 billion in the december quarter up 32 percent year on year like google microsoft includes application software and sas offerings in its cloud numbers and gives little nuggets of guidance on its azure infrastructure as a service business by the way we estimate that azure comprises about 45 percent of microsoft's overall cloud business which we think hit a 40 billion run rate last quarter microsoft guided in its earning call that recent declines in the azure growth rates will reverse in q1 and that implies sequential growth for azure and finally it was announced that the ftc not the doj will review microsoft's announced 75 billion acquisition of activision blizzard it appears ftc chair lena khan wants to take this one on herself she of course has been very outspoken about the power of big tech companies and in recent a recent cnbc interview suggested that the u.s government's actions were a meaningful contributor back then to curbing microsoft's power in the 90s i personally found that dubious just ask netscape wordperfect novell lotus and spc the maker of harvard presentation graphics how effective the government was in curbing microsoft power generally my take is that the u s government has had a dismal record regulating tech companies most notably ibm and microsoft and it was market forces company hubris complacency and self-inflicted wounds not government intervention these were far more effective than the government now of course if companies are breaking the law they should be punished but the u.s government hasn't been very productive in its actions and the unintended consequences of regulation could be detrimental to the u.s competitiveness in the race with china but i digress lastly in the news amazon announced earnings thursday and the company's value increased by 191 billion dollars on friday that's a record valuation gain for u.s stocks aws amazon's profit engine grew 40 percent year on year for the quarter it closed the year at 62 billion dollars in revenue and at a 71 billion dollar revenue run rate aws is now larger than ibm which without kindrel is at a 67 billion dollar run rate just for context ibm's revenue in 2011 was 107 billion dollars now there's a conversation going on in the media and social that in order to continue this growth and compete with microsoft that aws has to get into the sas business and offer applications we don't think that's the right strategy for amp from for amazon in the near future rather we see them enabling developers to compete in that business finally amazon disclosed that 48 of its top 50 customers are using graviton 2 instances why is this important because aws is well ahead of the competition in custom silicon chips is and is on a price performance curve that is far better than alternatives especially those based on x86 this is one of the reasons why we think this business is not a race to the bottom aws is being followed by google microsoft and alibaba in terms of developing custom silicon and will continue to drive down their internal cost structures and deliver price performance equal to or better than the historical moore's law curves so that's the recent news for the big u.s cloud providers let's now take a look at how the year ended for the big four hyperscalers and look ahead to next year here's a table we've shown this view before it shows the revenue estimates for worldwide is and paths generated by aws microsoft alibaba and google now remember amazon and alibaba they share clean eye ass figures whereas microsoft and alphabet only give us these nuggets that we have to interpret and we correlate those tidbits with other data that we gather we're one of the few outlets that actually attempts to make these apples to apples comparisons there's a company called synergy research there's another firm that does this but i really can't map to their numbers their gcp figures look far too high and azure appears somewhat overestimated and they do include other stuff like hosted private cloud services but it's another data point that you can use okay back to the table we've slightly adjusted our gcp figures down based on interpreting some of alphabet's statements and other survey data only alibaba has yet to announce earnings so we'll stick to a 2021 market size of about 120 billion dollars that's a 41 growth rate relative to 2020 and we expect that figure to increase by 38 percent to 166 billion in 2022 now we'll discuss this a bit later but these four companies have created an opportunity for the ecosystem to build what we're calling super clouds on top of this infrastructure and we're seeing it happen it was increasingly obvious at aws re invent last year and we feel it will pick up momentum in the coming months and years a little bit more on that later now here's a graphical view of the quarterly revenue shares for these four companies notice that aws has reversed its share erosion and is trending up slightly aws has accelerated its growth rate four quarters in a row now it accounted for 52 percent of the big four hyperscaler revenue last year and that figure was nearly 54 in the fourth quarter azure finished the year with 32 percent of the hyper scale revenue in 2021 which dropped to 30 percent in q4 and you can see gcp and alibaba they're neck and neck fighting for the bronze medal by the way in our recent 2022 predictions post we said google cloud platform would surpass alibaba this year but given the recent trimming of our numbers google's got some work to do for that prediction to be correct okay just to put a bow on the wikibon market data let's look at the quarterly growth rates and you'll see the compression trends there this data tracks quarterly revenue growth rates back to 20 q1 2019 and you can see the steady downward trajectory and the reversal that aws experienced in q1 of last year now remember microsoft guided for sequential growth and azure so that orange line should trend back up and given gcp's much smaller and big go to market investments that we talked about we'd like to see an acceleration there as well the thing about aws is just remarkable that it's able to accelerate growth at a 71 billion run rate business and alibaba you know is a bit more opaque and likely still reeling from the crackdown of the chinese government we're admittedly not as close to the china market but we'll continue to watch from afar as that steep decline in growth rate is somewhat of a concern okay let's get into the survey data from etr and to do so we're going to take some time series views on some of the select cloud platforms that are showing spending momentum in the etr data set you know etr uses a metric we talked about this a lot called net score to measure that spending velocity of products and services netscore basically asks customers are you spending more less or the same on a platform and a vendor and then it subtracts the lesses from the moors and that yields a net score this chart shows net score for five cloud platforms going back to january 2020. note in the table that the table we've inserted inside that chart shows the net score and shared n the latter metric indicates the number of mentions in the data set and all the platforms we've listed here show strong presence in the survey that red dotted line at 40 percent that indicates spending is at an elevated level and you can see azure and aws and vmware cloud on aws as well as gcp are all nicely elevated and bounding off their october figures indicating continued cloud momentum overall but the big surprise in these figures is the steady climb and the steep bounce up from oracle which came in just under the 40 mark now one quarter is not necessarily a trend but going back to january 2020 the oracle peaks keep getting higher and higher so we definitely want to keep watching this now here's a look at some of the other cloud platforms in the etr survey the chart here shows the same time series and we've now brought in some of the big hybrid players notably vmware cloud which is vcf and other on-prem solutions red hat openstack which as we've reported in the past is still popular in telcos who want to build their own cloud we're also starting to see hpe with green lake and dell with apex show up more and ibm which years ago acquired soft layer which was really essentially a bare metal hosting company and over the years ibm cobbled together its own public cloud ibm is now racing after hybrid cloud using red hat openshift as the linchpin to that strategy now what this data tells us first of all these platforms they don't have the same presence in the data set as do the previous players vmware is the one possible exception but other than vmware these players don't have the spending velocity shown in the previous chart and most are below the red line hpe and dell are interesting and notable in that they're transitioning their early private cloud businesses to dell gr sorry hpe green lake and dell apex respectively and finally after years of kind of staring at their respective navels in in cloud and milking their legacy on-prem models they're finally building out cloud-like infrastructure for their customers they're leaning into cloud and marketing it in a more sensible and attractive fashion for customers so we would expect these figures are going to bounce around for a little while for those two as they settle into a groove and we'll watch that closely now ibm is in the process of a complete do-over arvin krishna inherited three generations of leadership with a professional services mindset now in the post gerschner gerstner era both sam palmisano and ginny rometty held on far too long to ibm's service heritage and protected the past from the future they missed the cloud opportunity and they forced the acquisition of red hat to position the company for the hybrid cloud remedy tried to shrink to grow but never got there krishna is moving faster and with the kindred spin is promising mid-single-digit growth which would be a welcome change ibm is a lot of work to do and we would expect its net score figures as well to bounce around as customers transition to the future all right let's take a look at all these different players in context these are all the clouds that we just talked about in a two-dimensional view the vertical axis is net score or spending momentum and the horizontal axis is market share or presence or pervasiveness in the data set a couple of call-outs that we'd like to make here first the data confirms what we've been saying what everybody's been saying aws and microsoft stand alone with a huge presence many tens of billions of dollars in revenue yet they are both well above the 40 line and show spending momentum and they're well ahead of gcp on both dimensions second vmware while much smaller is showing legitimate momentum which correlates to its public statements alibaba the alibaba in this survey really doesn't have enough sample to make hardcore conclusions um you can see hpe and dell and ibm you know similarly they got a little bit more presence in the data set but they clearly have some work to do what you're seeing there is their transitioning their legacy install bases oracle's the big surprise look what oracle was in the january survey and how they've shot up recently now we'll see if this this holds up let's posit some possibilities as to why it really starts with the fact that oracle is the king of mission critical apps now if you haven't seen video on twitter you have to check it out it's it's hilarious we're not going to run the video here but the link will be in our post but i'll give you the short version some really creative person they overlaid a data migration narrative on top of this one tooth guy who speaks in spanish gibberish but the setup is he's a pm he's a he's a a project manager at a bank and aws came into the bank this of course all hypothetical and said we can move all your apps to the cloud in 12 months and the guy says but wait we're running mission critical apps on exadata and aws says there's nothing special about exadata and he starts howling and slapping his knee and laughing and giggling and talking about the 23 year old senior engineer who says we're going to do this with microservices and he could tell he was he was 23 because he was wearing expensive sneakers and what a nightmare they encountered migrating their environment very very very funny video and anyone who's ever gone through a major migration of mission critical systems this is gonna hit home it's funny not funny the point is it's really painful to move off of oracle and oracle for all its haters and its faults is really the best environment for mission critical systems and customers know it so what's happening is oracle's building out the best cloud for oracle database and it has a lot of really profitable customers running on-prem that the company is migrating to oracle cloud infrastructure oci it's a safer bet than ripping it and putting it into somebody else's cloud that doesn't have all the specialized hardware and oracle knowledge because you can get the same integrated exadata hardware and software to run your database in the oracle cloud it's frankly an easier and much more logical migration path for a lot of customers and that's possibly what's happening here not to mention oracle jacks up the license price nearly doubles the license price if you run on other clouds so not only is oracle investing to optimize its cloud infrastructure it spends money on r d we've always talked about that really focused on mission critical applications but it's making it more cost effective by penalizing customers that run oracle elsewhere so this possibly explains why when the gartner magic quadrant for cloud databases comes out it's got oracle so well positioned you can see it there for yourself oracle's position is right there with aws and microsoft and ahead of google on the right-hand side is gartner's critical capabilities ratings for dbms and oracle leads in virtually all of the categories gartner track this is for operational dvms so it's kind of a narrow view it's like the red stack sweet spot now this graph it shows traditional transactions but gartner has oracle ahead of all vendors in stream processing operational intelligence real-time augmented transactions now you know gartner they're like old name framers and i say that lovingly so maybe they're a bit biased and they might be missing some of the emerging opportunities that for example like snowflake is pioneering but it's hard to deny that oracle for its business is making the right moves in cloud by optimizing for the red stack there's little question in our view when it comes to mission critical we think gartner's analysis is correct however there's this other really exciting landscape emerging in cloud data and we don't want it to be a blind spot snowflake calls it the data cloud jamactagani calls it data mesh others are using the term data fabric databricks calls it data lake house so so does oracle by the way and look the terminology is going to evolve and most of the action action that's happening is in the cloud quite frankly and this chart shows a select group of database and data warehouse companies and we've filtered the data for aws azure and gcp customers accounts so how are these accounts or companies that were showing how these vendors were showing doing in aws azure and gcp accounts and to make the cut you had to have a minimum of 50 mentions in the etr survey so unfortunately data bricks didn't make it just not enough presence in the data set quite quite yet but just to give you a sense snowflake is represented in this cut with 131 accounts aws 240 google 108 microsoft 407 huge [ __ ] 117 cloudera 52 just made the cut ibm 92 and oracle 208. again these are shared accounts filtered by customers running aws azure or gcp the chart shows a net score lime green is new ads forest green is spending more gray is flat spending the pink is spending less and the bright red is defection again you subtract the red from the green and you get net score and you can see that snowflake as we reported last week is tops in the data set with a net score in the 80s and virtually no red and even by the way single digit flat spend aws google and microsoft are all prominent in the data set as is [ __ ] and snowflake as i just mentioned and they're all elevated over the 40 mark cloudera yeah what can we say once they were a high flyer they're really not in the news anymore with anything compelling other than they just you know took the company private so maybe they can re-emerge at some point with a stronger story i hope so because as you can see they actually have some new additions and spending momentum in the green just a lot of customers holding steady and a bit too much red but they're in the positive territory at least with uh plus 17 percent unlike ibm and oracle and this is the flip side of the coin ibm they're knee-deep really chest deep in the middle of a major transformation we've said before arvind krishna's strategy and vision is at least achievable prune the portfolio i.e spin out kindrel sell watson health hold serve with the mainframe and deal with those product cycles shift the mix to software and use red hat to win the day in hybrid red hat is working for ibm's growing well into the double digits unfortunately it's not showing up in this chart with little database momentum in aws azure and gcp accounts zero new ads not enough acceleration and spending a big gray middle in nearly a quarter of the base in the red ibm's data and ai business only grew three percent this last quarter and the word database wasn't even mentioned once on ibm's earnings call this has to be a concern as you can see how important database is to aws microsoft google and the momentum it's giving companies like snowflake and [ __ ] and others which brings us to oracle with a net score of minus 12. so how do you square the momentum in oracle cloud spending and the strong ratings and databases from gartner with this picture good question and i would say the following first look at the profile people aren't adding oracle new a large portion of the base 25 is reducing spend by 6 or worse and there's a decent percentage of the base migrating off oracle with a big fat middle that's flat and this accounts for the poor net score overall but what etr doesn't track is how much is being spent rather it's an account based model and oracle is heavily weighted toward big spenders running mission critical applications and databases oracle's non-gaap operating margins are comparable to ibm's gross margins on a percentage basis so a very profitable company with a big license and maintenance in stall basin oracle has focused its r d investments into cloud erp database automation they've got vertical sas and they've got this integrated hardware and software story and this drives differentiation for the company but as you can see in this chart it has a legacy install base that is constantly trying to minimize its license costs okay here's a little bit of different view on the same data we expand the picture with the two dimensions of net score on the y-axis and market share or pervasiveness on the horizontal axis and the table insert is how the data gets plotted y and x respectively not much to add here other than to say the picture continues to look strong for those companies above the 40 line that are focused and their focus and have figured out a clear cloud strategy and aren't necessarily dealing with a big install base the exception of course is is microsoft and the ones below the line definitely have parts of their portfolio which have solid momentum but they're fighting the inertia of a large install base that moves very slowly again microsoft had the advantage of really azure and migrating those customers very quickly okay so let's wrap it up starting with the big three cloud players aws is accelerating and innovating great example is custom silicon with nitro and graviton and other chips that will help the company address concerns related to the race to the bottom it's not a race to zero aws we believe will let its developers go after the sas business and for the most part aws will offer solutions that address large vertical markets think call centers the edge remains a wild card for aws and all the cloud players really aws believes that in the fullness of time all workloads will run in the public cloud now it's hard for us to imagine the tesla autonomous vehicles running in the public cloud but maybe aws will redefine what it means by its cloud microsoft well they're everywhere and they're expanding further now into gaming and the metaverse when he became ceo in 2014 many people said that satya should ditch xbox just as an aside the joke among many oracle employees at the time was that safra katz would buy her kids and her nieces and her nephews and her kids friends everybody xbox game consoles for the holidays because microsoft lost money for everyone that they shipped well nadella has stuck with it and he sees an opportunity to expand through online gaming communities one of his first deals as ceo was minecraft now the acquisition of activision will make microsoft the world's number three gaming company by revenue behind only 10 cent and sony all this will be powered by azure and drive more compute storage ai and tooling now google for its part is battling to stay relevant in the conversation luckily it can afford the massive losses it endures in cloud because the company's advertising business is so profitable don't expect as many have speculated that google is going to bail on cloud that would be a huge mistake as the market is more than large enough for three players which brings us to the rest of the pack cloud ecosystems generally and aws specifically are exploding the idea of super cloud that is a layer of value that spans multiple clouds hides the underlying complexity and brings new value that the cloud players aren't delivering that's starting to bubble to the top and legacy players are staying close to their customers and fighting to keep them spending and it's working dell hpe cisco and smaller predominantly on-plan prem players like pure storage they continue to do pretty well they're just not as sexy as the big cloud players the real interesting activity it's really happening in the ecosystem of companies and firms within industries that are transforming to create their own digital businesses virtually all of them are running a portion of their offerings on the public cloud but often connecting to on-premises workloads and data think goldman sachs making that work and creating a great experience across all environments is a big opportunity and we're seeing it form right before our eyes don't miss it okay that's it for now thanks to my colleague stephanie chan who helped research this week's topics remember these episodes are all available as podcasts wherever you listen just search breaking analysis podcast check out etr's website at etr dot ai and also we publish a full report every week on wikibon.com and siliconangle.com you can get in touch with me email me at david.velante siliconangle.com you can dm me at divalante or comment on my linkedin post this is dave vellante for the cube insights powered by etr have a great week stay safe be well and we'll see you next time [Music] you

>>and welcome to this cube conversation. I'm john for a host of the queue here in Palo alto California. We've got two great remote guests to talk about, some big news hitting with scalability and Hewlett Packard enterprise drill, MCAT ceo of sexuality and chris Tinker, distinguished technologist from H P E. Hewlett Packard enterprise U room chris, Great to see you both. Cube alumni's from an original gangster days. As we say Back then when we started almost 11 years ago. Great to see you both. >>It's great to be back. >>So let's see. So >>really compelling news around kind of this next generation storage, cloud native solution. Okay. It's a, it's really kind of an impact on the next gen. I call, next gen devops meets application, modern application world and some, we've been covering heavily, there's some big news here around sexuality and HP offering a pretty amazing product. You guys introduced essentially the next gen piece of it are pesca, we'll get into in a second. But this is a game changing announcement you guys announces an evolution continuing I think it's more of a revolution but I think you know storage is kind of abstraction layer of evolution to this app centric world. So talk about this environment we're in and we'll get to the announcement which is object store for modern workloads but this whole shift is happening jerome, this is a game changer to storage, customers are gonna be deploying workloads. >>Yeah skeleton. Really I mean I personally really started working on Skele T more than 10 years ago 15 now And if we think about it I mean cloud has really revolutionized IT. and within the cloud we really see layers and layers of technology. I mean we all started around 2006 with Amazon and Google and finding ways to do initially we was consumer it at very large scale, very low incredible reliability and then slowly it creeped into the enterprise and at the very beginning I would say that everyone was kind of wizards trying things and and really coupling technologies together uh and to some degree we were some of the first wizard doing this But we're now close to 15 years later and there's a lot of knowledge and a lot of experience, a lot of schools and this is really a new generation, I'll call it cloud native, you can call it next year and whatever, but there is now enough experience in the world, both at the development level and at the infrastructure level to deliver truly distributed automate systems that run on industry standard service. Obviously good quality server deliver a better service than the service. But there is now enough knowledge for this to truly go at scale and call this cloud or call this cloud native. Really the core concept here is to deliver scalable I. T at very low cost, very high level of reliability. All based on software. We've we've been participated in this solution but we feel that now the draft of what's coming is at the new level and it was time for us to think, develop and launch a new product that specifically adapted to that. And chris I will let you comment on this because customers or some of them you can add a custom of you to that. >>Well, you know, you're right. You know, I've been in there have been like you have been in this industry for uh, well a long time, a little longer to 20, years. This HPV and engineering and look at the actual landscape has changed with how we're doing scale out, suffered to find storage for particular workloads and were a catalyst has evolved. Here is an analytic normally what was only done in the three letter acronyms and massively scale out politics name, space, file systems, parallel file systems. The application space has encroached into the enterprise world where the enterprise world needed a way to actually take a look at how to help simplify the operations. How do I actually be able to bring about an application that can run in the public cloud or on premise or hybrid. Be able to actually look at a workload off my stat that aligns the actual cost to the actual analytics that I'm going to be doing the work load that I'm going to be doing and be able to bridge those gaps and be able to spin this up and simplify operations. And you know, and if you if you are familiar with these parallel fossils, which by the way we we actually have on our truck. I do engineer those. But they are they are they are they have their own unique challenges. But in the world of enterprise where customers are looking to simplify operations, then take advantage of new application, analytic workloads, whether it be sparred may so whatever it might be right. If I want to spend the Mongol BB or maybe maybe a last a search capability, how do I actually take those technologies embrace a modern scale out storage stack that without without breaking the bank but also provide a simple operations. And that's that's why we look for object storage capabilities because it brings us this massive parallelization. Thank you. >>Well, before we get into the product, I want to just touch on one thing from you mentioned and chris you, you brought up the devoPS piece, next gen, next level, whatever term you use it is cloud Native. Cloud Native has proven that deVOPS infrastructure as code is not only legit being operationalized in all enterprises, add security in there. You have def sec ops this is the reality and hybrid cloud in particular has been pretty much the consensus. Is that standard. So or de facto saying whatever you want to call it, that's happening. Multi cloud on the horizon. So these new workloads have these new architectural changes, cloud on premises and edge, this is the number one story and the number one challenge, all enterprises are now working on how do I build the architecture for the cloud on premises and edge. This is forcing the deVOPS team to flex and build new apps. Can you guys talk about that particular trend and is and is that relevant here? >>Yeah, I, I not talk about uh really storage anywhere and cloud anywhere. And and really the key concept is edged to go to cloud. I mean we all understand now that the Edge will host a lot of data and the edges many different things. I mean it's obviously a smartphone, whatever that is, but it's also factories, it's also production, it's also, you know, moving uh moving machinery, trains, playing satellites, um that that's all the Edge cars obviously uh and a lot of that, I will be both produced and processed there. But from the Edge you will want to be able to send that uh for analysis for backup for logging to a court. And that core could be regional maybe not, you know, one call for the whole planet, but maybe one corporate region uh state in the US. Uh and then from there, you will also want to push some of the data to probably cloud. Uh One of the things that we see more and more is that the the our data center, the disaster recovery is not another physical data center, it's actually the cloud and that's a very efficient infrastructure, very cost efficient. Especially so really it's changing the padding on how you think about storage because you really need to integrate these three layers in a consistent approach, especially around the topic of security because you want the data to be secure all along the way and the data is not just data data and who can access the data, can modify the data. What are the conditions that allow modification or automatically ratios that are in some cases it's super important that data be automatically raised 10 years and all this needs to be transported fromage Co two cloud. So that that's one of the aspects, another aspect that resonates for me with what you said is a word you didn't say but it's actually crucial this whole revolution. It's kubernetes mean Cuban it isn't now a mature technology and it's just, you know, the next level of automaticity operation for distributed system Which we didn't have five or 10 years ago and that is so powerful that it's going to allow application developers to develop much faster system that can be distributed again edge to go to crowd because it's going to be an underlying technology that spans the three layers >>chris your thoughts. Hybrid cloud, I've been, I've been having conscious with the HP folks for got years and years on hybrid clouds now here. >>Well, you know, and it's exciting in a layout, right? So if you look at like a whether it be enterprise virtualization that is a scale out gender purpose fertilization workload. Whether the analytic workloads, whether we know data protection is a paramount to all of this orchestration is paramount. Uh if you look at that depth laptops absolutely you mean securing the actual data. The digital last set is absolutely paramount. And if you look at how we do this, look at the investments we're making we're making. And if you look at the collaborative platform development which goes to our partnership with reality it is we're providing them an integral aspect of everything we do. Whether we're bringing as moral which is our suffer be used orchestration. Look at the veneer of its control plane controlling kubernetes being able to actually control the african area clusters in the actual backing store for all the analytics. And we just talked about whether it be a web scale out That is traditionally using politics. Name space has now been modernized to take advantage of newer technologies running an envy me burst buffers or 100 gig networks with slingshot network at 200 and 400 gigabit. Looking at how do we actually get the actual analytics the workload to the CPU and have it attached to the data at rest? Where is the data? How do we land the data and how do we actually align essentially locality, locality of the actual asset to the compute. This is where, you know, we can leverage whether it be a juror or google or name your favorite hyper scaler, leverage those technologies leveraging the actual persistent store and this is where scale it is with this object store capability has been an industry trend setter, uh setting the actual landscape of how to provide an object store on premise and hybrid cloud running into public cloud but be able to facilitate data mobility and tie it back to and tie it back to an application. And this is where a lot of things have changed in the world of the, of analytics because the applications, the newer technologies that are coming on the market have taken advantage of this particular protocol as three so they can do web scale massively parallel concurrent workloads, >>you know what, let's get into the announcement, I love cool and relevant products and I think this hits the Mark Scaletta you guys have are Tesco which is um, just announced and I think, you know, we obviously we reported on it. You guys have a lightweight, true enterprise grade object store software for kubernetes. This is the announcement, Jerome. Tell us about it. >>What's the big >>deal? Cool and >>relevant? Come on, >>this is cool. All right, tell us >>I'm super excited. I'm not sure that it did. That's where on screen, but I'm super, super excited. You know, we, we introduced the ring 11 years ago and this is our biggest announcements for the past 11 years. So yes, do pay attention. Uh, you know, after after looking at all these trends and understanding where we see the future going, uh, we decided that it was time to embark block. So there's not one line of code that's the same as the previous generation product. They will both could exist. They both have space in the market, uh, and artist that was specifically this design for this cloud native era. And what we see is that people want something that's lightweight, especially because it had to go to the edge. They still want the enterprise grade, the security is known for and it has to be modern. What we really mean by modern is uh, we see object storage now being the primary storage for many application more and more applications and so we have to be able to deliver the performance that primary storage expects. Um this idea of skeletons serving primary storage is actually not completely new When we launched guilty 10 years ago, the first application that we were supporting West consumer email for which we were and we are still today the primary story. So we have we know what it is to be the primary store, we know what's the level of reliability you need to hit. We know what, what latest thinking and latency is different from fruit, but you really need to optimize both. Um, and I think that's still today. We're the only object storage company that protects that after both replication and the red recording because we understand that replication is factor the recording is better and more larger file were fast in terms of latency doesn't matter so much. So we, we've been bringing all that experience but really rethinking a product for that new generation that really is here now. And so we're truly excited against a little bit more about the product. It's a software was guilty is a software company and that's why we love to partner with HP who's producing amazing service. Um, you know, for the record and history, the very first deployment of skeleton in 2000 and 10 was on the HP service. So this is a, a long love story here. Um, and so to come back to artistic, uh, is lightweight in the sense that it's easy to use. We can start small, we can start from just one server or 11 VM instance. I mean start really small. Can grow infinitely. The fact that we start small, we didn't, you know, limit the technology because of that. Uh, so you can start from one too many. Um, and uh, it's contaminated in the sense that it's completely Cuban, it is compatible. It's communities orchestrated. It will deploy on many Cuban distributions. We're talking obviously with Admiral, we're also talking with Ponzu and with the other in terms of uh, communities distribution will also be able to be run in the cloud. I'm not sure that there will be many uh, true production deployment of artists in the club because you already have really good object storage by the cloud providers. But when you are developing something and you want to test their, um, you know, just doing it in the cloud is very practical. So you'll be able to deploy our discount communities cloud distribution and it's modern object storage in the sense that its application century. A lot of our work is actually validating that our storage is fit for a single purpose application and making sure that we understand the requirement of this application that we can guide our customers on how to deploy. And it's really designed to be the primary storage for these new workloads. >>The big part of the news is your relationship with Hewlett Packard Enterprises? Some exclusivity here as part of this announced, you mentioned, the relationship goes back many, many years. We've covered your relationship in the past chris also, you know, we cover HP like a blanket. Um, this is big news for h P E as >>well. >>What is the relationship talk about this? Exclusivity could you share about the partnership and the exclusivity piece? >>Well, the partnership expands into the pan HPV portfolio. We look we made a massive investment in edge IOT devices. Uh, so we actually have, how do we align the cost to the demand for our customers come to us wanting to looking at? Uh think about what we're doing with green, like a consumption based modeling, they want to be able to be able to consume the asset without having to do a capital outlay out of the gate uh, number to look at, you know, how do you deploy? Technology really demand? It depends on the scale. Right? So in a lot of your web skill, you know, scale out technologies, uh, putting them on a diet is challenging, meaning how skinny can you get it getting it down into the 50 terabyte range and then the complexities of those technologies at as you take a day one implementation and scale it out over, you know, you know, multiple iterations of recorders. The growth becomes a challenge. So, working with scalability, we we believe we've actually cracked this nut. We figured out how to a number one, how to start small but not limited customers ability to scale it out incrementally or grotesquely grotesque. A you can depending on the quarters the month, whatever whatever the workload is, how do you actually align and be able to consume it? Uh So now, whether it be on our edge line products are D. L. Products go back there. Now what the journalist talking about earlier, you know, we ship a server every few seconds. That won't be a problem. But then of course into our density optimized compute with the Apollo product. Uh This where uh our two companies have worked in an exclusivity where the, the scaly software bonds on the HP ecosystem. Uh and then we can of course provide you our customers the ability to consume that through our Green link financial models or through a complex parts of >>awesome. So jerome and chris who's the customer here? Obviously there's an exclusive period talk about the target customer. And how do customers get the product? How do we get the software? And how does this exclusivity with HP fit into it? >>Yeah. So there's really three types of customers and we really, we've worked a lot with a company called use design to optimize the user interface for each of the three types of customers. So we really thought about each uh customer role and providing with each of them the best product. Uh So the first type of customer application owners who are deploying application that requires an object storage in the back end. They typically want a simple objects to of one application. They wanted to be temple and work. I mean yesterday they want no freedom to just want an object store that works and they want to be able to start as small as they start with their application. Often it's, you know, the first department, maybe a small deployment. Um, you know, applications like backup like female rubric or uh, analytics like Stone Carver, tikka or false system now available as a software. Uh, you know, like Ceta does a really great department or nass that works very well. That means an object store in the back end of high performance computing. Wake up file system is an amazing file system. Um, we also have vertical application like broad peak, for example, who provides origin and view the software, the broadcasters. So all these applications, they request an object store in the back end and you just need a simple, high performance, working well object store and I'll discuss perfect. The second type of people that we think will be interested by artists. Uh essentially developers who are currently developing some communities of collaborative application your next year. Um and as part of their development stack, um it's getting better and better when you're developing a cloud native application to really target an object storage rather than NFS as you're persistently just, you know, think about generations of technologies and um, NFS and file system were great 25 years ago. I mean, it's an amazing technology. But now when you want to develop a distributed scalable application, objects toys a better fit because it's the same generation and so same thing. I mean, you know, developing something, they need uh an object so that they can develop on so they wanted very lightweight, but they also want the product that they're enterprise or their customers will be able to rely on for years and years on and this guy is really great for today. Um, the third type of customer are more architecture with security architects that are designing, uh, System where they're going to have 50 factories, 1000 planes, a million cars are going to have some local storage, which will they want to replicate to the core and possibly also to the club. And uh, as the design is really new generation workloads that are incredibly distributed. But with local storage, uh, these guys are really grateful for that >>and talk about the HP exclusive chris what's the, how does that fit into? They buy through sexuality. Can they get it for the HP? Are you guys working together on how customers can procure >>place? Yeah. Both ways they can procure it through security. They can secure it through HP. Uh, and it is the software stack running on our density, optimized compute platforms which you would choose online does. And to provide an enterprise quality because if it comes back to it in all of these use cases it's how do we align up into a true enterprise step? Um bringing about multi Tennessee, bringing about the fact that, you know, if you look at like a local racial coding, uh one of the things that they're bringing to it so that we can get down into the deal 3 25. So with the exclusivity, uh you actually get choice and that choice comes into our entire portfolio, whether it be the edge line platform, the D. L 3:25 a.m. B. Processing stack or the intel deal three eighties or whether whether it be the Apollo's or Alexa, there's there's so many ample choices there that facilitates this and it just allows us to align those two strategies >>awesome. And I think the kubernetes pieces really relevant because, you know, I've been interviewing folks practitioners um and kubernetes is very much maturing fast. It's definitely the centerpiece of the cloud native, both below the line, if you will under the hood for the, for the infrastructure and then for apps, um they want to program on top of it. That's critical. I mean, jeremy, this is like this is the future. >>Yeah. And if you don't mind, like to come back for a minute on the exclusive with HP. So we did a six month exclusive and the very reason we could do this is because HP has suffered such wrath of server portfolio and so we can go from, you know, really simple, very cheap, you know, HDD on the L 3 80 means a machine that retails for a few $4. I mean it's really like Temple System 50 terabyte. Uh we can have the dl 3 25. That uh piece mentioned there is really a powerhouse. All envy any uh slash uh all the storage is envy any uh very fast processors or uh you know, dance large large system like the Apollo 4500. So it's a very large breath of portfolio. We support the whole portfolio and we work together on this. So I want to say that you know, one of the reasons I want to send kudos to HP for for the breath of the silver lining rio as mentioned, um Jessica can be ordered from either company, hand in hand together. So anyway you'll see both of us uh and our field is working incredibly well together. >>We'll just on that point, I think just for clarification, uh was this co design by scalability and H P E. Because chris you mentioned, you know, the configuration of your systems. Can you guys quickly talk about the design, co design >>from from from the code base? The software entirely designed and developed by security from a testing and performance. So this really was a joint work with HP providing both hardware and manpower so that we could accelerate the testing phase. >>You know, chris H P E has just been doing such a great job of really focused on this. And you know, I've been Governor for years before it was fashionable the idea of apps working no matter where it lives. Public Cloud data center Edge, you mentioned. Edge line has been around for a while. You know, apps centric, developer friendly cloud first has been an H P E. Kind of guiding first principle for many, many years. >>But it has and you know, you know as our our ceo internal areas cited by 2022 everything will be able to be consumed as a service in our portfolio. Uh And then this stack allows us the simplicity and the consume ability of the technology and degranulation of it allows us to simplify the installation, simplify the actual deployment bringing into a cloud ecosystem. But more importantly for the end customer, they simply get an enterprise quality product running on identity optimized stack that they can consume through a orchestrated simplistic interface. That's that's cos that's what they're warning for today is where they come to me and asked hey how do I need a, I've got this new app new project and you know it goes back to who's actually coming, it's no longer the I. T. People who are actually coming to us, it's the lines of business. It's it's that entire dimension of business owners coming to us going this is my challenge and how can you HP help us And we rely on our breath of technology but also a breath of partners to come together and are of course reality is hand in hand and are collaborative business unit are collaborative storage product engineering group that actually brought this market. So we're very excited about this solution >>chris thanks for that input. Great insight, Jerome, congratulations on a great partnership with H. P. E. Obviously um great joint customer base congratulations on the product release here. Big moving the ball down the field as they say new functionality, clouds cloud native object store, phenomenal um So wrap wrap wrap up the interview. Tell us your vision for scalability in the future of storage. >>Yeah. Yeah I start I mean skeleton is going to be an amazing leader is already um but yeah so you know I have three themes that I think will govern how storage is going and obviously um Mark Andrews had said it software is everywhere and software is eating the world so definitely that's going to be true in the data center in storage in particular. Uh But the free trends that are more specific. First of all I think that security performance and agility is now basic expectation. It's not you know, it's not like an additional feature. It's just the best table, stakes, security performance and a job. Um The second thing is and we've talked about it during this conversation is edged to go you need to think your platform with Edge Co and cloud. You know you don't want to have separate systems separate design interface point for edge and then think about corn and think about clouds and then think about the divers. All this needs to be integrated in the design. And the third thing that I see as a major trend for the next 10 years is that a sovereignty uh more and more. You need to think about where is the data residing? What are the legal challenges? What is the level of protection against who are you protected? What what is your independence uh strategy? How do you keep as a company being independent from the people? You need to be independent. And I mean I say companies, but this is also true for public services. So these these for me are the three big trends. I do believe that uh software find distributed architecture are necessary for these tracks. But you also need to think about being truly enterprise grade. And there has been one of our focus with the design of a fresca. How do we combine a lot with product With all of the security requirements and that our sovereignty requirements that we expect to have in the next 10 years? >>That's awesome. Congratulations on the news scale. D Artois ca the big release with HP exclusive um, for six months, chris tucker, distinguished engineer at H P E. Great to ceo, jeremy, katz, ceo sexuality. Great to see you as well. Congratulations on the big news. I'm john for the cube. Thanks for watching. >>Mhm. >>Yeah.

>> Narrator: Live from Las Vegas, it's The Cube, covering IBM Think 2018. Brought to you by IBM. >> Hello everyone, welcome to the third day of live coverage here at IBM Think in Las Vegas. This is The Cube, our flagship program, we go out to the events, and extract a civil noise of the leader in live technology coverage. I'm John Furrier, with my co-host Dave Vellante. Our seventh, eighth year covering a bunch of IBM shows. With all now six of them rolled into one IBM Think, this is their big tent event, day three, keynotes just finished, it's blockchain day here at IBM, and as we said, on the opening, on Tuesday, this is like, the innovation sandwich. In the middle is the meat, is data, and then the bread is blockchain and AI. And really that is the architecture of IBM's future strategy, foundationally set up by cloud computing and a variety of other applications and whatnot, but really the future is about data, with blockchain and AI surrounding it. Today's blockchain day, your thoughts on the keynote? Keynote speeches? >> Mm-hm. >> IBM, blockchain, certainly we've seen a lot of advertising on TV. Your thoughts and reaction to the keynote. >> Yeah, and I like your innovation sandwich, I just want to add, that the substrate of all this is cloud. It's critical, if you're going to get network effects, you've got to have the cloud. Today, yeah, was blockchain day, we heard from Marie Wieck, who's the general manager of IBM blockchain. IBM has a tendency, as you know, John, to identify a hot trend, especially some in Open Source, they did this with Linux, they did this with Spark, and they kind of, elbow their way in, you know, maybe that's a pejorative, but they do that, and they say, "Here's some code, here's some resources." They spend money on it, and they give credibility to that Open Source effort. The Hyperledger project is the one they targeted here. It's the fastest growing project in the history of the Linux Foundation. IBM contributed lines of code, people, they've got 15 hundred blockchain experts on this, and they're going all in on blockchain. Which I think, John, is really positive for the blockchain, and even the crypto community, because it brings the credibility of a, you know, a Fortune 100 company to that world. They've announced the blockchain starter kit. All this stuff is available on the IBM cloud. They announced today PWC as an audit partner, which again, brings credibility to the table. Although, I think as you and I know, and we're going to have some guests on later today, there's some other tech emerging, that is going to maybe complement that. >> Yeah. >> And we heard from David Katz, who is the CEO of Plastic Bank, this is the company that's essentially creating currency out of plastic. Allowing disadvantaged people to turn collecting plastic into money. And, at the same time, help save the planet. >> I mean, this is a great example of blockchain as an enabling technology. New ways to do business. As you know, we've been hot on blockchain for the audience watching, you know, we've been covering big data, and AI, that's in our wheelhouse, do all those shows and events, cover that territory with our journalism, and TV and research. But blockchain is an adjacency to storage and infrastructure, and also decentralized applications. The fundamental thing that we're seeing, and we talked to Brian-- Brian Behlendorf, who's with the Hyperledger project, at the Open Source Summit, the Apache Foundation, which IBM is a big sponsor of, IBM needs to do well here. Because they're, again, innovations is essentially betting on blockchain. But it's not just the developers at Open Source, the business users are the ones that are going to create the value, and what I mean by that is, if you look at the blockchain world, and crypto currency and decentralized applications, that's essentially the three components to this market. The blockchain is the infrastructure, ledger, storage of data, et cetera, you know over simplified, but the cryptocurrency runs protocols and infrastructure that power that, and then the application's going to sit on top. We've reported and observed that the secret of success in this new world, is nailing the business logic, and the business model, efficiencies that take advantage of the underlying technology. And that the risk factors in making that success happen, is that business model, not the technology. Although the technology is super important, the technology can be switched out a reduced risk. So the real risk in blockchain and cryptocurrency, and decentralized applications is nailing the business model disruption. This is different than the old way of tech, which was the risk was technology selection. This is a big deal, IBM needs to up their game on that piece of it. I've heard a lot of tech, I've got some nice use cases, but on the outreach basis, they got to go to the business users, and say, "This is an opportunity to leverage the data, "leverage the software and AI with watts and other things." And then leverage the underlying technology, software defined storage, software systems that move to the blockchain, in a decentralized and distributed way. Distributed and decentralized is the future of infrastructure, this is the secret of success, this is where the winners are establishing the clear line of sight. >> Well, one of the things that you're hearing at this conference, Ginny set this up yesterday, was incumbent disrupters, and we were just, kind of, having fun at the open yesterday, but I think it's really smart for IBM. You know me, John, I'm a big fan of saying most of your business is going to come from your existing customers, and if you're chasing all this new business, and start ups, and developers, you're not going to be as productive as if you go to your core. And I think that you're seeing this. IBM back to the core, and they're bringing blockchain to that core as a way to disrupt existing business models, defend against disrupters. So you're absolutely right, companies need to look for inefficiencies where there's a third party taking a toll, and then attack it hard with blockchain. I actually think-- well no, so IBM is really talking business. How do we bring blockchain to the business? They're not really talking about what we talk about a lot, this crypto economy and this whole other mission driven initiative. >> Well, but I mean, if they want to talk business, they got to talk token economics. That's where the business model efficiencies will be rendered on the app side, and the money side. The killer wrap in blockchain and crypto is money. Okay, and marketplaces. IBM got to great marketplace, but it's not just about the developers, that's an organic one stakeholder. The stakeholders that matter is the business guys and the developers coming together. That is absolutely fundamental. If they don't understand that, that's going to be hard to be successful. You can't just throw money at developer programs and say, "Oh, when we win the developers, we win the day." Cloud was, kind of, that playbook, but this world is so fast, and accelerating in it's value creation, that the business users are fundamental in actually grokking what the capabilities are, and putting that into motion quickly, and the proof points is pilots converting to production. That's going to come from the business units. That's where the intellectual property is, is looking at the technology innovations that are possible on the business logic. Business logic is the new IP, this is where the action is, and I haven't heard IBM talk at all about token economics, they kind of talk about it, but that really is the business impact. >> Well, I mean, you sort of heard that today from Plastic Bank, although they didn't talk about a token, they didn't talk about coins, they did talk about monetizing plastic, but in using blockchain to do that, I assume there's tokens behind that, but maybe not. Maybe it's just Fiat currency. It's unclear to me, but I think you're right, the killer app is money. >> Look at it, this is simple. The equation in crypto, and not blockchain, is value creators create value, and they can capture the value. Capturing the value is where the money is, the creating the value is where the technology can happen. So you got to nail both of those as areas. And money is the killer app, so that's going to come from the business side, so the real benefit of decentralization is offering the value capture equation to look different and be different. That's token economics. That's where the action's going to be. So, it really is, it's not mutually exclusive, they're both things. >> Well I think that what you're hearing, so value comes from two places in the simplest form, increased revenue, cut costs. I'm hearing a lot from IBM of cut costs, now again, the Plastic Bank this morning was a really interesting example, I'm glad IBM uses it, but the vast majority of things you're hearing from IBM, like the IBM Maersk relationship, et cetera, are about cutting costs, taking out inefficiencies. >> Well, I mean, the bank thing is easy to look at in your mind, but it's any supply chain. The ICO market that's at a massive bubble right now, is because the supply chain of funding start ups and growth, used to come from private equity and venture capital, that is being disrupted because it certainly hyped up, but that's a supply chain. Any supply chain activities, set of activities, that make up a supply chain, can and will be disrupted by blockchain, crypto, and token economics. >> Yeah, so let's talk about that. Because again, you're not hearing a lot of that from IBM. But I think we have a perspective there. You know, the 1.0 was the wild west, a bunch of developers, blockchain developers, theory developers, doing stuff, building up protocols, making a lot of money. And disintermediating the VCs, right? The new form of raising capital. The VCs are now all in, right? We saw this in Bahamas, you saw this in Puerto Rico, at the two conferences, at four conferences that we covered. So explain that? >> Well, that's just one application, the VCs and these guys are inefficient in some way, but what's happening with crypto currency about access to capital. Now there's a lot of capital being thrown out there. That's mainly because of the hype and the bubble aspect of it, but the real disruption is access to capital, that value chain, value activities are being disrupted and being more efficient. That's a global phenomenon, and that's happening in financing of start ups. Anything with a supply chain, whether it's moving food from point A to point B, is what IBM also highlights as well, anything that's structural incumbent is at risk. And so, this is where, I mean IBM has a ton of supply chain business. They've been doing this for generations in the computer industry. They connect systems together, and create value with using technology. So this is not going to be-- this is a great opportunity for IBM. Again, if they can convert that business value into the blockchain with the value capture, the create capture model, they can run the table. >> But I want to come back to innovation equation. And part of that innovation equation is being able to raise capital. And last I checked, which was last month, about 6.5 billion had been raised in crypto investments. >> And 60% of the projects failed. >> For sure, okay. But failure-- Silicon Valley, fail fest, it's probably up to 10 billion now, much more is being raised through crypto in startups in blockchain than there is in VC. The VCs realized this, and they want a piece of the action, but we're seeing private equity, we're seeing hedge funds, we're seeing crypto billionaires. >> The path of least resistance for the entrepreneur is where the action is. They go right to the new money opportunity. Because they can raise more money. >> So, here's the question. You take Fiocoin, for example, smart guys, trying to go after S3 with peer to peer storage, they raised 250 million dollars in 30 minutes, okay? Is it too much too fast? >> Yes, I think so, but it's what the market's giving. I mean, Fiocoin doesn't even have a product. They're on a roadmap. That's essentially a series A financing. >> Dave: That's a series C. >> Well, no, in terms of the evolution of the startup, it's a seed financing as a series C or D or F financing. >> Yeah, 250 million. >> I mean, it's insane. >> David Scott told us that he needed 85 to start Three Par. I mean that's a storage company 10 years ago, 20 years ago. >> Yeah. >> What a change. At 250 million. >> Look, it's a bubble. But the reality is that it's a bubble that's not going to pop and destroy the sector, it's just a proof point that the efficiency of funding is going to be disrupted. It is being disrupted. >> No, we'll see if it's going to destroy this sector or not. This could, you know-- Warren Buffet says it's going to end badly, others are believers. >> I'm long on blockchain, obviously you know that. I'm pretty biased, but anywhere there's inefficiencies, there's an opportunity for entrepreneurs and business leaders to put new business logic in place to capture that value. That's where the action will be. That's the innovation. And if IBM's innovation sandwich could work, you got a blockchain AI, data in the middle, everyone's going to be full and hungry and eat up everyone's lunch. So, Dave, that's the blockchain day. I'm John Furrier, with Dave Vellante, day three wall to wall coverage here at IBM Think in Las Vegas. More live coverage after this short break. (futuristic music)