(soft music) >> Welcome back to Sin City, guys and girls we're glad you're with us. You've been watching theCUBE all week, we know that. This is theCUBE's live coverage of AWS re:Invent 22, from the Venetian Expo Center where there are tens of thousands of people, and this event if you know it, covers the entire strip. There are over 55,000 people here, hundreds of thousands online. Dave, this has been a fantastic show. It is clear everyone's back. We're hearing phenomenal stories from AWS and it's ecosystem. We got a great customer story coming up next, featured on the main stage. >> Yeah, I mean, you know, post pandemic, you start to think about, okay, how are things changing? And one of the things that we heard from Adam Selipsky, was, we're going beyond digital transformation into business transformation. Okay. That can mean a lot of things to a lot of people. I have a sense of what it means. And I think this next interview really talks to business transformation beyond digital transformation, beyond the IT. >> Excellent. We've got two guests. One of them is an alumni, Scott Mullins joins us, GM, AWS Worldwide Financial Services, and Brad Peterson is here, the EVP, CIO and CTO of NASDAQ. Welcome guys. Great to have you. >> Hey guys. >> Hey guys. Thanks for having us. >> Yeah >> Brad, talk a little bit, there was an announcement with NASDAQ and AWS last year, a year ago, about how they're partnering to transform capital markets. It was a highlight of last year. Remind us what you talked about and what's gone on since then. >> Yeah, so, we are very excited. I work with Adena Friedman, she's my boss, CEO of NASDAQ, and she was on stage with Adam for his first Keynote as CEO of AWS. And we made the commitment that we were going to move our markets to the Cloud. And we've been a long time customer of AWS and everyone said, you know the last piece, the last frontier to be moved was the actual matching where all the messages, the quotes get matched together to become confirmed orders. So that was what we committed to less than a year ago. And we said we were going to move one of our options markets. In the US, we have six of them. And options markets are the most challenging, they're the most high volume and high performance. So we said, let's start with something really challenging and prove we can do it together with AWS. So we committed to that. >> And? Results so far? >> So, I can sit here and say that November 7th so we are live, we're in production and the MRX Exchange is called Mercury, so we shorten it for MRX, we like acronyms in technology. And so, we started with a phased launch of symbols, so you kind of allow yourself to make sure you have all the functionality working then you add some volume on it, and we are going to complete the conversion on Monday. So we are all good so far. And I have some results I can share, but maybe Scott, if you want to talk about why we did that together. >> Yeah. >> And what we've done together over many years. >> Right. You know, Brian, I think it's a natural extension of our relationship, right? You know, you look at the 12 year relationship that AWS and NASDAQ have had together, it's just the next step, in the way that we're going to help the industry transform itself. And so not just NASDAQ's business transformation for itself, but really a blueprint and a template for the entire capital markets industry. And so many times people will ask me, who's using Cloud well? Who's doing well in the Cloud? And NASDAQ is an easy example to point to, of somebody who's truly taking advantage of these capabilities because the Cloud isn't a place, it's a set of capabilities. And so, this is a shining example of how to use these capabilities to actually deliver real business benefit, not just to to your organization, but I think the really exciting part is the market technology piece of how you're serving other exchanges. >> So last year before re:Invent, we said, and it's obvious within the tech ecosystem, that technology companies are building on top of the Cloud. We said, the big trend that we see in the 2020s is that, you know, consumers of IT, historically, your customers are going to start taking their stacks, their software, their data, their services and sassifying, putting it on the Cloud and delivering new services to customers. So when we saw Adena on stage last year, we called it by the way, we called it Super Cloud. >> Yeah. >> Okay. Some people liked the term but I love it. And so yeah, Super Cloud. So when we saw Adena on stage, we said that's a great example. We've seen Capital One doing some similar things, we've had some conversations with US West, it's happening, right? So talk about how you actually do that. I mean, because you've got a lot, you've got a big on-premises stay, are you connecting to that? Is it all in the Cloud? Paint a picture of what the architecture looks like? >> Yeah. And there's, so you started with the business transformation, so I like that. >> Yeah. >> And the Super Cloud designation, what we are is, we own and operate exchanges in the United States and in Europe and in Canada. So we have our own markets that we're looking at modernizing. So we look at this, as a modernization of the capital market infrastructure, but we happen to be the leading technology provider for other markets around the world. So you either build your own or you source from us. And we're by far the leading provider. So a lot of our customers said, how about if you go first? It's kind of like Mikey, you know, give it to Mikey, let him try it. >> See if Mikey likes it. >> Yeah. >> Penguin off the iceberg thing. >> Yeah. And so what we did is we said, to make this easy for our customers, so you want to ask your customers, you want to figure out how you can do it so that you don't disrupt their business. So we took the Edge Compute that was announced a few years ago, Amazon Outposts, and we were one of their early customers. So we started immediately to innovate with, jointly innovate with Amazon. And we said, this looks interesting for us. So we extended the region into our Carteret data center in Northern New Jersey, which gave us all the services that we know and love from Amazon. So our technical operations team has the same tools and services but then, we're able to connect because in the markets what we're doing is we need to connect fairly. So we need to ensure that you still have that fairness element. So by bringing it into our building and extending the Edge Compute platform, the AWS Outpost into Carteret, that allowed us to also talk very succinctly with our regulators. It's a familiar territory, it's all buttoned up. And that simplified the conversion conversation with the regulators. It simplified it with our customers. And then it was up to us to then deliver time and performance >> Because you had alternatives. You could have taken a more mature kind of on-prem legacy stack, figured out how to bolt that in, you know, less cloudy. So why did you choose Outposts? I am curious. >> Well, Outposts looked like when it was announced, that it was really about extending territory, so we had our customers in mind, our global customers, and they don't always have an AWS region in country. So a lot of you think about a regulator, they're going to say, well where is this region located? So finally we saw this ability to grow the Cloud geographically. And of course we're in Sweden, so we we work with the AWS region in Stockholm, but not every country has a region yet. >> And we're working as fast as we can. - Yes, you are. >> Building in every single location around the planet. >> You're doing a good job. >> So, we saw it as an investment that Amazon had to grow the geographic footprint and we have customers in many smaller countries that don't have a region today. So maybe talk a little bit about what you guys had in mind and it's a multi-industry trend that the Edge Compute has four or five industries that you can say, this really makes a lot of sense to extend the Cloud. >> And David, you said it earlier, there's a trend of ecosystems that are coming onto the Cloud. This is our opportunity to bring the Cloud to an ecosystem, to an existing ecosystem. And if you think about NASDAQ's data center in Carteret, there's an ecosystem of NASDAQ's clients there that are there to be with NASDAQ. And so, it was actually much easier for us as we worked together over a really a four year period, thinking about this and how to make this technological transition, to actually bring the capabilities to that ecosystem, rather than trying to bring the ecosystem to AWS in one of our public regions. And so, that's been our philosophy with Outpost all along. It's actually extending our capabilities that our customers know and love into any environment that they need to be able to use that in. And so to Brad's point about servicing other markets in different countries around the world, it actually gives us that ability to do that very quickly, very nimbly and very succinctly and successfully. >> Did you guys write a working backwards document for this initiative? >> We did. >> Yeah, we actually did. So to be, this is one of the fully exercised. We have a couple of... So by the way, Scott used to work at NASDAQ and we have a number of people who have gone from NASDAQ data to AWS, and from AWS to NASDAQ. So we have adopted, that's one of the things that we think is an effective way to really clarify what you're trying to accomplish with a project. So I know you're a little bit kidding on that, but we did. >> No, I was close. Because I want to go to the like, where are we in the milestone? And take us through kind of what we can expect going forward now that we've worked backwards. >> Yep, we did. >> We did. And look, I think from a milestone perspective, as you heard Brad say, we're very excited that we've stood up MRX in production. Having worked at NASDAQ myself, when you make a change and when you stand up a market that's always a moment where you're working with your community, with your clients and you've got a market-wide call that you're working and you're wanting to make sure that everything goes smoothly. And so, when that call went smoothly and that transition went smoothly I know you were very happy, and in AWS, we were also very happy as well that we hit that milestone within the timeframe that Adena set. And that was very important I know to you. >> Yeah. >> And for us as well. >> Yeah. And our commitment, so the time base of this one was by the end of 2022. So November 7th, checked. We got that one done. >> That's awesome. >> The other one is we said, we wanted the performance to be as good or better than our current platform that we have. And we were putting a new version of our derivative or options software onto this platform. We had confidence because we already rolled it to one market in the US then we rolled it earlier this year and that was last year. And we rolled it to our nordic derivatives market. And we saw really good customer feedback. So we had confidence in our software was going to run. Now we had to marry that up with the Outpost platform and we said we really want to achieve as good or better performance and we achieved better performance, so that's noticeable by our customers. And that one was the biggest question. I think our customers understand when we set a date, we test them with them. We have our national test facility that they can test in. But really the big question was how is it going to perform? And that was, I think one of the biggest proof points that we're really proud about, jointly together. And it took both, it took both of us to really innovate and get the platform right, and we did a number of iterations. We're never done. >> Right. >> But we have a final result that says it is better. >> Well, congratulations. - Thank you. >> It sounds like you guys have done a tremendous job. What can we expect in 2023? From NASDAQ and AWS? Any little nuggets you can share? >> Well, we just came from the partner, the partner Keynote with Adam and Ruba and we had another colleague on stage, so Nick Ciubotariu, so he is actually someone who brought digital assets and cryptocurrencies onto the Venmo, PayPal platform. He joined NASDAQ about a year ago and we announced that in our marketplace, the Amazon marketplace, we are going to offer digital custody, digital assets custody solution. So that is certainly going to be something we're excited about in 2023. >> I know we got to go, but I love this story because it fits so great at the Super cloud but we've learned so much from Amazon over the years. Two pieces of teams, we talked about working backwards, customer obsession, but this is a story of NASDAQ pointing its internal capabilities externally. We're already on that journey and then, bringing that to the Cloud. Very powerful story. I wonder what's next in this, because we learn a lot and we, it's like the NFL, we copy it. I think about product market fit. You think about scientific, you know, go to market and seeing that applied to the financial services industry and obviously other industries, it's really exciting to see. So congratulations. >> No, thank you. And look, I think it's an example of Invent and Simplify, that's another Amazon principle. And this is, I think a great example of inventing on behalf of an industry and then continually working to simplify the way that the industry works with all of us. >> Last question and we've got only 30 seconds left. Brad, I'm going to direct it to you. If you had the opportunity to take over the NASDAQ sign in Times Square and say a phrase that summarizes what NASDAQ and AWS are doing together, what would it say? >> Oh, and I think I'm going to put that up on Monday. So we're going to close the market together and it's going to say, "Modernizing the capital market's infrastructure together." >> Very cool. >> Excellent. Drop the mic. Guys, this was fantastic. Thank you so much for joining us. We appreciate you joining us on the show, sharing your insights and what NASDAQ and AWS are doing. We're going to have to keep watching this. You're going to have to come back next year. >> All right. >> For our guests and for Dave Vellante, I'm Lisa Martin. You're watching theCUBE, the leader in live enterprise and emerging tech coverage. (soft music)

>>Hey everyone. Welcome back to the Cube's live coverage of AWS Reinvent 2022. This is day one, I should say evening one of three and a half days of wall to wall coverage on the cube. Lisa Martin here with Dave Ante. Dave, we love talking about data, but the most important thing about data is if there's a breach, which are happening more and more frequently, that you can get it back. So data backup, data protection, data resiliency, hugely >>Important. Well, it used to be you got snake bit and then you closed the barn door after the horse ran away. Now I think people are a lot more aware that they gotta protect their data and be proactive about it. It can't just be an afterthought. >>It can't be an afterthought. We've got the CTO of own backup here. We're gonna be talking about that Adrian Consul. Adrian, welcome to the Cube. >>Thanks for having me. >>Talk a little bit about own backup. The what is unique about it? >>So we are the leading SaaS data protection vendor. We've built a business based on the fact that SAS has become a center of gravity for a lot of companies. Now, a lot of people have moved with digital transformation and more recently with the covid effects to digitize their business. Our platform is powered by aws. We've got 5,000 plus customers that trust what we do and to look after their data. We help them with resiliency, compliance, security, and we do it for people who are using Salesforce, ServiceNow, and Microsoft Dynamics 365 people >>Are gonna say, wait a minute, my data in the cloud isn't already backed up. Why do I Right. That's what they're gonna say. So how do you >>Respond? Yes. Lots of people say that. That is exactly right. So what people are beginning to realize much more is that there's actually a shared responsibility model between your SaaS provider and yourselves. And you know, the SaaS providers do a phenomenal job of giving you disaster recovery, a database copy, networking infrastructure, a bunch of security controls at that level. But they're pretty frank about the data you put in there is your data, right? And just that it's up to you to put the data in there. It's also up to you to keep it in there. And that's not so easy when you've got lots of integrations. You've got users running around in the applications, et cetera. So yeah, the heart of it is, it's your data, you put it in there, you better be looking after it too. >>That's so important for customers to understand what is Salesforce's responsibility? What's my responsibility to the really nail that? What are some of the main challenges as we see the cybersecurity landscape has changed so much in the last couple of years? Ransomware is now a, when it's gonna happen to us. How often, what's gonna be the significance? What are some of the main challenges that you're talking with customers about these days? >>So really on the data side, it definitely hinges around ransomware. But I would also say when you think about what digital transformation has done for customers, moved you to a world where you've gotta be on 24 7, right? You can't afford to have systems down, whether that's your public website or even things your salespeople are using. And so on the, on the data side, we talk a lot with our customers about really recovery. Not so much about backup. Backup is in our name, but our product is called Recover. And there's a reason for that. We're trying to focus on how can we help customers quickly get back to a good state when they've had an incident. So that's kind of the data side of it. On the security side of it, it's really about how do they manage all the controls that SaaS providers now give them. >>Make sure the right people in their organization can see the right data and the data. They should not be able to see the data they shouldn't be able to see. And that's just getting increasingly complex, really anchored around the fact that the volume of the data is growing, the complexity of that data is growing and really the sensitivity of that data is growing, right? When you think about all the data privacy rules, 10 years ago we didn't care about keeping a whole bunch of data around. Now you've kind of gotta get rid of it. So you've actually gotta manage it through its lifecycle. >>So the shared responsibility model has applied to data protection is, is kind of an interesting topic cuz you always think about it for security and I know security and data protection are these adjacencies, but it's a complicated situation cuz you've got shared responsibility models now across multiple clouds. It's gotta be way more complicated across SaaS because you've got different policies, you've got a lot more SaaS than you have. There's three clouds, four, if you put in Alibaba, you know, and yeah, I know this hosting and Oracle and IBM, et cetera, but hyperscalers and so, but there's dozens if not hundreds of SaaS products at a company. So are you able to create a consistent experience and, and for your customers across all those, now of course, I know you're not doing hundreds and thousands of SaaS products, but you got, you know, pretty big ones here. ServiceNow, Salesforce, right? 365. Let's start >>There. So, so consistency we are hoping will come honestly where the industry is right now. It's getting, getting each one in a state where you are comfortable with it, >>Right? Get it protected. >>Yeah. Take a sales force. A typical sales force environment right now has a survey we did recently, about 2000 fields that have sensitive data in it in some way, shape or form. You've couple that with about 80, 85% of the users can see some fields that are sensitive. How you manage that matrix is, is just really hard. And that's part of what our secure product brings to the table, helps you understand who can see what and why they can see it. >>So where are your customer conversations these days? Are you talking to CIOs and CISOs? Is this, is this at that level >>It for some of our customers? Yes, it absolutely gets there. The, the real core of our discussion is the guy who owns and runs the sales technology, for example, right? Or the ServiceNow technology or typically a center of excellence. Those have been, those have been a key way for us to help an organization understand what the risks are, what's necessary, what they're having to do given that they don't have a backup now and have those, those shared responsibility model conversations. That's kind of where >>It starts. Are you finding that most customers are not backing up Salesforce, for example, or ServiceNow? Or are they switching from a competitor over to own back? >>Sad to say that it's mostly not. Yeah, it's, it's predominantly, I thought my cloud provider had me covered for that. >>So the market is huge. Yes. Massive opportunity. Yeah. >>Yeah. If you think of the number of Salesforce instances, not ignoring ServiceNow and Dynamics for a moment, Salesforce talks about, I don't know, 150,000 customers somewhere in that mark and we have 500 of them. >>So how do you get the first penguin off the iceberg? What's the sort of customer conversation like just in terms of, you know, educating them and sending them and, and kind of pushing 'em over the edge so that they actually do start protecting their data? >>Yeah, so, so sadly it sometimes starts with, I had a data loss, I spent weeks working at it, I got 75% of my data back, but not all of it. And that's a real customer quote. And in other cases it's, sorry. In other cases it's how do we, you know, how are you thinking about your sales source environment, particularly customers that have a lot of them, how sensitive is the data? How critical is the data in there? What are you doing to protect it? Today we have some people doing, doing weekly exports, which Salesforce provides. It's a manual step. The first penguin off the iceberg, as you say, it's kind of to say, Hey, well why didn't you automate that? Right? Don't have to rely on somebody on a Tuesday pulling the data down. So that's, those are places where it starts. >>Yeah. So, you know, Lisa, I was saying earlier that, you know, it closed the barn door, right? And that's, that's essentially what Adrian's saying is you've, you've got, you basically gotta look for that customer that's been snake bitten. Yeah. But generally speaking, I feel like there's more awareness. I was gonna ask you, you know, in this economic climate is, is data protection recession proof? And I think it's, it's not right. People sort of, but at the same time, if you're not proactive about it, you really could hurt your business. Absolutely. So what, what are your thoughts on customers getting more efficient with regard to their, their data estate, their data protection? Can you turn it into a positive? >>I think, I think it absolutely is a positive. Obviously we're in an environment where CIOs are having to look at every penny they're spending. But if you think about what you're using the data for, you're making business decisions based on this data every day. Your, your entire organization is making business decisions. So if you've got missing data or inaccurate data, you're making suboptimal decisions, right? So that comes back to data protection, comes back to brand reputation. Yes. And it comes back to how quickly can you get the data back into the shape you need it to be. And that again, is why we focus on the recovery side of the equation, not just the backup side. Right. Sorry. I would also say that in these recession bit times you've got fewer people doing as much work as you had before that raises the chance of errors. And we see across our customer base 50% of the data corruption or or data loss occurrences happen cause a human did something by mistake. Yeah, sure. And if you up the, the stress of those humans, you're gonna get more errors. >>Should you, when you're talking with IT professionals or maybe sales leaders, should it be thinking differently about spend for data protection versus general spend? Given that the whole point is to be able to recover data when something happens? >>I think you have to think about it from a kind of a risk and a business continuity perspective, right? Data protection tangibly reduces your business risk, right? It gets you back up faster. It, it helps you stay running. It helps ensure that the right people have access to the right data and from a secure standpoint and, and all of those just lower your risk. And if you're having discussions as CIOs should be with their business counterparts around business continuity, with the criticality of the data that's in Salesforce and these other SaaS applications today, I think it's pretty obvious that, that you should have a strong data protection strategy around >>It. Absolutely. >>Your business is at >>Risk, right? And nobody wants to be the next headline. No. My last question for you, Adrian, is if there was a billboard near your headquarters, what's that? What would it say? What's that tagline about own backup that really nails it home? >>I think it's, nobody operating in the cloud should ever lose data and that's what we're here to do. >>Excellent. Adrian, it's been a pleasure having you on the program. Thank you for talking with David, me, great talking to you about and back up what you guys are doing and really how organizations need to be very aware of that shared responsibility model. It sounds like you guys are well on your way to helping them understand that. We appreciate your time. >>Thank you both. Thank you. Best of luck. >>Appreciate it. Thank our pleasure. For our guest and Dave Ante, I'm Lisa Martin. You're watching The Cube, the leader in emerging and enterprise tech coverage.

(inspirational music) >> The history of high performance computing is unique and storied. You know, it's generally accepted that the first true supercomputer was shipped in the mid 1960s by Controlled Data Corporations, CDC, designed by an engineering team led by Seymour Cray, the father of Supercomputing. He left CDC in the 70's to start his own company, of course, carrying his own name. Now that company Cray, became the market leader in the 70's and the 80's, and then the decade of the 80's saw attempts to bring new designs, such as massively parallel systems, to reach new heights of performance and efficiency. Supercomputing design was one of the most challenging fields, and a number of really brilliant engineers became kind of quasi-famous in their little industry. In addition to Cray himself, Steve Chen, who worked for Cray, then went out to start his own companies. Danny Hillis, of Thinking Machines. Steve Frank of Kendall Square Research. Steve Wallach tried to build a mini supercomputer at Convex. These new entrants, they all failed, for the most part because the market at the time just wasn't really large enough and the economics of these systems really weren't that attractive. Now, the late 80's and the 90's saw big Japanese companies like NEC and Fujitsu entering the fray and governments around the world began to invest heavily in these systems to solve societal problems and make their nations more competitive. And as we entered the 21st century, we saw the coming of petascale computing, with China actually cracking the top 100 list of high performance computing. And today, we're now entering the exascale era, with systems that can complete a billion, billion calculations per second, or 10 to the 18th power. Astounding. And today, the high performance computing market generates north of $30 billion annually and is growing in the high single digits. Supercomputers solve the world's hardest problems in things like simulation, life sciences, weather, energy exploration, aerospace, astronomy, automotive industries, and many other high value examples. And supercomputers are expensive. You know, the highest performing supercomputers used to cost tens of millions of dollars, maybe $30 million. And we've seen that steadily rise to over $200 million. And today we're even seeing systems that cost more than half a billion dollars, even into the low billions when you include all the surrounding data center infrastructure and cooling required. The US, China, Japan, and EU countries, as well as the UK, are all investing heavily to keep their countries competitive, and no price seems to be too high. Now, there are five mega trends going on in HPC today, in addition to this massive rising cost that we just talked about. One, systems are becoming more distributed and less monolithic. The second is the power of these systems is increasing dramatically, both in terms of processor performance and energy consumption. The x86 today dominates processor shipments, it's going to probably continue to do so. Power has some presence, but ARM is growing very rapidly. Nvidia with GPUs is becoming a major player with AI coming in, we'll talk about that in a minute. And both the EU and China are developing their own processors. We're seeing massive densities with hundreds of thousands of cores that are being liquid-cooled with novel phase change technology. The third big trend is AI, which of course is still in the early stages, but it's being combined with ever larger and massive, massive data sets to attack new problems and accelerate research in dozens of industries. Now, the fourth big trend, HPC in the cloud reached critical mass at the end of the last decade. And all of the major hyperscalers are providing HPE, HPC as a service capability. Now finally, quantum computing is often talked about and predicted to become more stable by the end of the decade and crack new dimensions in computing. The EU has even announced a hybrid QC, with the goal of having a stable system in the second half of this decade, most likely around 2027, 2028. Welcome to theCUBE's preview of SC22, the big supercomputing show which takes place the week of November 13th in Dallas. theCUBE is going to be there. Dave Nicholson will be one of the co-hosts and joins me now to talk about trends in HPC and what to look for at the show. Dave, welcome, good to see you. >> Hey, good to see you too, Dave. >> Oh, you heard my narrative up front Dave. You got a technical background, CTO chops, what did I miss? What are the major trends that you're seeing? >> I don't think you really- You didn't miss anything, I think it's just a question of double-clicking on some of the things that you brought up. You know, if you look back historically, supercomputing was sort of relegated to things like weather prediction and nuclear weapons modeling. And these systems would live in places like Lawrence Livermore Labs or Los Alamos. Today, that requirement for cutting edge, leading edge, highest performing supercompute technology is bleeding into the enterprise, driven by AI and ML, artificial intelligence and machine learning. So when we think about the conversations we're going to have and the coverage we're going to do of the SC22 event, a lot of it is going to be looking under the covers and seeing what kind of architectural things contribute to these capabilities moving forward, and asking a whole bunch of questions. >> Yeah, so there's this sort of theory that the world is moving toward this connectivity beyond compute-centricity to connectivity-centric. We've talked about that, you and I, in the past. Is that a factor in the HPC world? How is it impacting, you know, supercomputing design? >> Well, so if you're designing an island that is, you know, tip of this spear, doesn't have to offer any level of interoperability or compatibility with anything else in the compute world, then connectivity is important simply from a speeds and feeds perspective. You know, lowest latency connectivity between nodes and things like that. But as we sort of democratize supercomputing, to a degree, as it moves from solely the purview of academia into truly ubiquitous architecture leverage by enterprises, you start asking the question, "Hey, wouldn't it be kind of cool if we could have this hooked up into our ethernet networks?" And so, that's a whole interesting subject to explore because with things like RDMA over converged ethernet, you now have the ability to have these supercomputing capabilities directly accessible by enterprise computing. So that level of detail, opening up the box of looking at the Nix, or the storage cards that are in the box, is actually critically important. And as an old-school hardware knuckle-dragger myself, I am super excited to see what the cutting edge holds right now. >> Yeah, when you look at the SC22 website, I mean, they're covering all kinds of different areas. They got, you know, parallel clustered systems, AI, storage, you know, servers, system software, application software, security. I mean, wireless HPC is no longer this niche. It really touches virtually every industry, and most industries anyway, and is really driving new advancements in society and research, solving some of the world's hardest problems. So what are some of the topics that you want to cover at SC22? >> Well, I kind of, I touched on some of them. I really want to ask people questions about this idea of HPC moving from just academia into the enterprise. And the question of, does that mean that there are architectural concerns that people have that might not be the same as the concerns that someone in academia or in a lab environment would have? And by the way, just like, little historical context, I can't help it. I just went through the upgrade from iPhone 12 to iPhone 14. This has got one terabyte of storage in it. One terabyte of storage. In 1997, I helped build a one terabyte NAS system that a government defense contractor purchased for almost $2 million. $2 million! This was, I don't even know, it was $9.99 a month extra on my cell phone bill. We had a team of seven people who were going to manage that one terabyte of storage. So, similarly, when we talk about just where are we from a supercompute resource perspective, if you consider it historically, it's absolutely insane. I'm going to be asking people about, of course, what's going on today, but also the near future. You know, what can we expect? What is the sort of singularity that needs to occur where natural language processing across all of the world's languages exists in a perfect way? You know, do we have the compute power now? What's the interface between software and hardware? But really, this is going to be an opportunity that is a little bit unique in terms of the things that we typically cover, because this is a lot about cracking open the box, the server box, and looking at what's inside and carefully considering all of the components. >> You know, Dave, I'm looking at the exhibitor floor. It's like, everybody is here. NASA, Microsoft, IBM, Dell, Intel, HPE, AWS, all the hyperscale guys, Weka IO, Pure Storage, companies I've never heard of. It's just, hundreds and hundreds of exhibitors, Nvidia, Oracle, Penguin Solutions, I mean, just on and on and on. Google, of course, has a presence there, theCUBE has a major presence. We got a 20 x 20 booth. So, it's really, as I say, to your point, HPC is going mainstream. You know, I think a lot of times, we think of HPC supercomputing as this just sort of, off in the eclectic, far off corner, but it really, when you think about big data, when you think about AI, a lot of the advancements that occur in HPC will trickle through and go mainstream in commercial environments. And I suspect that's why there are so many companies here that are really relevant to the commercial market as well. >> Yeah, this is like the Formula 1 of computing. So if you're a Motorsports nerd, you know that F1 is the pinnacle of the sport. SC22, this is where everybody wants to be. Another little historical reference that comes to mind, there was a time in, I think, the early 2000's when Unisys partnered with Intel and Microsoft to come up with, I think it was the ES7000, which was supposed to be the mainframe, the sort of Intel mainframe. It was an early attempt to use... And I don't say this in a derogatory way, commodity resources to create something really, really powerful. Here we are 20 years later, and we are absolutely smack in the middle of that. You mentioned the focus on x86 architecture, but all of the other components that the silicon manufacturers bring to bear, companies like Broadcom, Nvidia, et al, they're all contributing components to this mix in addition to, of course, the microprocessor folks like AMD and Intel and others. So yeah, this is big-time nerd fest. Lots of academics will still be there. The supercomputing.org, this loose affiliation that's been running these SC events for years. They have a major focus, major hooks into academia. They're bringing in legit computer scientists to this event. This is all cutting edge stuff. >> Yeah. So like you said, it's going to be kind of, a lot of techies there, very technical computing, of course, audience. At the same time, we expect that there's going to be a fair amount, as they say, of crossover. And so, I'm excited to see what the coverage looks like. Yourself, John Furrier, Savannah, I think even Paul Gillin is going to attend the show, because I believe we're going to be there three days. So, you know, we're doing a lot of editorial. Dell is an anchor sponsor, so we really appreciate them providing funding so we can have this community event and bring people on. So, if you are interested- >> Dave, Dave, I just have- Just something on that point. I think that's indicative of where this world is moving when you have Dell so directly involved in something like this, it's an indication that this is moving out of just the realm of academia and moving in the direction of enterprise. Because as we know, they tend to ruthlessly drive down the cost of things. And so I think that's an interesting indication right there. >> Yeah, as do the cloud guys. So again, this is mainstream. So if you're interested, if you got something interesting to talk about, if you have market research, you're an analyst, you're an influencer in this community, you've got technical chops, maybe you've got an interesting startup, you can contact David, david.nicholson@siliconangle.com. John Furrier is john@siliconangle.com. david.vellante@siliconangle.com. I'd be happy to listen to your pitch and see if we can fit you onto the program. So, really excited. It's the week of November 13th. I think November 13th is a Sunday, so I believe David will be broadcasting Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday. Really excited. Give you the last word here, Dave. >> No, I just, I'm not embarrassed to admit that I'm really, really excited about this. It's cutting edge stuff and I'm really going to be exploring this question of where does it fit in the world of AI and ML? I think that's really going to be the center of what I'm really seeking to understand when I'm there. >> All right, Dave Nicholson. Thanks for your time. theCUBE at SC22. Don't miss it. Go to thecube.net, go to siliconangle.com for all the news. This is Dave Vellante for theCUBE and for Dave Nicholson. Thanks for watching. And we'll see you in Dallas. (inquisitive music)

>> From theCUBE studios in Palo Alto and Boston, connecting with thought-leaders all around the world, this is a Cube Conversation. >> Hi everybody, this is Dave Vellante. Welcome to this Cube Conversation. We're really excited to have Wim Coekaerts in, he is the senior vice-president of software development at Oracle. Wim, it's great to have you on, and, you know I often say I wish we were face-to-face but if we were you'd have to cut off my tie, cause developers and ties just don't go together. >> No, I know, and this is my normal outfit, so this is me wherever I go. Hi again, good to see you. >> Yeah, great to see you. So, of course, you know a lot of people are confused about Oracle, and open-source, they say "Oracle? Open-source? What is that all about?" But I think you're misunderstood. People don't, first of all, realize you as the leader of the software-development community inside of Oracle, I mean, you've been involved in Linux since the early 90s. But you guys have a lot of committers, you do a lot. I want to talk about that. What is up with Oracle, and open-source? >> Ah, well, it's a broad question. So, you know, a couple of things. One is, we have many different areas within the company that are dealing with open-source. So we have the cloud team doing a lot of stuff around cloud SDKs and support for different languages like Python and Go, and of course Java and so forth, so they do a lot around ensuring that the Oracle ecosystem is integrated in the open-source tools that customers use, or developers use, Terraform companies and so forth. And then you have the Java team, and so forth. Java is open-source and then the Graal project, GraalVM which is a polyglot compiler that can run Java, and Python, and Javascript and so forth together in one. VM do really cool optimizations, that's an open-source project, also on GitHub. There's of course MySQL, which is along with Java, they're probably the two most popular and widely used open-source projects out there. There's VirtualBox which is of course also a very popular project that's open-source. There's all the work we do around Linux. And I think one of the things is that, when you have so many different areas, doing things that are for that area, then as a developer or as a customer, you typically just deal with that group. And what you see is, oh you're talking to the Java developers, so you know what's going on around Java. The Java developers might not necessarily say, "Oh well we also do MySQL, and we do Linux and VirtualBox and so forth," and so you get a rather myopic, narrow view of the larger company. When you add all these things up, and there will be one big slide that says "This is Oracle, these are all these open source projects," and there's multiple ways. One is, we have projects that we've open-sourced and all the code came from us and we made it publicly available, we're the main contributor and we get contributions back. There are other projects where we contribute to third-party in terms of enhancing things, like I said with the Cloud Team, and then in general something like Linux where we're part of an external project and we participate in development of that project at large. And so there's these three different ways, when you count up all the developers that we have that deal with open-source on a daily basis. And in terms of contributions, in terms of bug fixes, testing, and so forth, it's thousands, literally, full-time paid developers. And of course, all the projects are all either on GitHub or similar sites that are very popular. So yeah, I think the misunderstood is probably a lack of knowledge of the breadth of what we do. And, you know, our primary goal is to provide services and products to customers, and so the open-source part is sort of embedded in a development methodology. But that's not something we sell or market separately, we just work with customers and products and services, and so in some cases it's not well-understood. >> Yeah. Well, we're talking of course, we're talking about the state of the penguin, I think it's important for people to understand, Oracle got into the Linux game in the 90s, maybe the latter part of the 90s and Oracle, of course, wants to make Linux-- wants to make Oracle, it's applications and database run better on Linux, but as you're pointing out, your Linux distro, full support, end-to-end, thousands of people in your open-source community, and the contributions that you make to Linux, many if not most, they go upstream, everybody can benefit from those, but of course you want an Oracle distro that is going to make Oracle stuff run better, that's always kind of been the Oracle way. >> Well, so, yes, two things though. One is, so everything we do is upstream. So we have no Linux patches that are not contributed upstream; There's no proprietary code in Oracle Linux at all, it's all completely open, publicly available: the source code, the change log, all the commits, it's fully open and public, which sometimes is not well-understood, but it's completely open. And, everything we do in terms of feature development or functionality or bug fixes goes upstream to the Linux kernel mail-list. It's actually, it's the only way to be able to manage a Linux distribution and be a Linux vendor is to live in that eco-system. Otherwise, the cost of maintaining your own fork, so to speak, is very high and it doesn't really solve the problem. Now, the functionality we work on obviously is focused on making Oracle products run better, making Oracle Cloud run better, and so forth. However, again, what's important to understand, though, is an Oracle database is a program running on an operating system. It does IO, it does networking, it deals with memory management, lots of processing. So, for the most part, the things that we work on to improve that helps everyone out, right? It helps every other database run better, or helps every other language run better. So none of these changes are specific to Oracle, they're just things that we found doing performance benchmarks and testing and so forth, where we say "Hey, if Linux did the following, it would make boot-up faster. Now boot-up has nothing to do with the database. But our customers run on 1-terabyte, 4-terabyte, 8-terabyte systems, and so booting up, and Linux starting up, and cleaning up memory takes a long time. So we want to reduce that from an availability point of view. So here, we're now talking about just enterprise for you. So there's this broad set of things we work on that definitely help us, but they're actually really completely generic and help everyone out. >> Yeah, that's great. So I wanted to kind of get that out of the way and help our audience understand that. So let's get into it a little bit; What are you seeing, what's going on in IT, pick your observation space and your vision of what you see happening out there. >> Well, you know, it's very interesting, it's sort of, there's two... there's sort of two worlds, right, there's the cloud world and the move to cloud, and there's the on-premises world, where people run their systems on their own. And, one of the things that we've learned is, when you talk about machine-learning, obviously, is something that's very popular these days, and automation. And so in order to rely on machine-learning well, and have algorithms that are very effective, you need lots of data. And so being a cloud vendor, and having Linux in our cloud on tens of thousands, or hundreds of thousands of servers, or more, allows us to have a view of how an operating system works across an incredibly large scale. So we get lots of data. And so for us to figure out which algorithms work well in terms of how can we do network optimizations, how can we discover anomalies on the storage site, and deal with it and so forth, we can do that at scale. And what's interesting is, how do we then bring that on-prem? Well, if we can get the data and the learning done, the training done, in our cloud directly, then when we provide that service also for people running Oracle Linux on premises then that will work. The alternative is to have point solutions where you provide something to a customer, and he needs to learn something from small amounts of data. That doesn't work so well. So I think having both worlds, on-prem and cloud directly, allows us to kind of benefit from that. And I think that's important, because lots of customers are interested in going to cloud. Many of the enterprises have not yet. You know, they're starting, but there's still a huge on-premises space that's important. And so by being able to get them familiar with how these things work at scale, autonomy is again important, right, Autonomous Database is incredibly popular and so forth, that allows us to then say, "Here, try these things out here, it's a service. We can show you the benefits right away," and then as that improves we bring that, to a certain extent, on-premises as well. And then they can have it in both places. And that, I think, is something, again, that's relatively unique but also very important, is that we want to provide services and products that act similarly on-premises as well as in cloud, because at some point when people move we want to make that transition seamless. And what you have today for the most part is one world that's on-prem, and then the cloud world is completely different. And that is a big barrier of moving, and so we want to reduce that, we can run the same operating system local as well as cloud, you can the same functionality, and then that helps transition people over much easier. >> Yeah, well Oracle actually was one of the -- I think Oracle was the first company to actually market same-same, you actually used that term. Others put forth that concept, but Oracle was the first to announce products like Cloud at Customer, that were same-same, now it took some time to actually get it perfected, and get it to market, but the point is, and we've written about this, is Oracle, because of the ascendancy of cloud, flipped and has a cloud-first mentality, and you just kind of referenced that, you just said, "And you can bring that to on-prem." So I wonder if you could talk about that cloud-first mentality, and the impact on hybrid. >> So yeah, I think the cloud-first part is of course in cloud we work on services moreso than products that we deliver. And there's a number of things that are happening. So one is that we obviously continue to provide products to customers, you can download Oracle Linux, you can download the database and what not, you can install it on your own, you can do the traditional way of working. Then in the cloud-world, what typically happens is "Oh, I use a database service. I'm not installing anything, I push a button and I get an IP address and a SQL that connects extremely quickly to the database." And we take care of everything underneath that is on this database. Now, in order to do that, you need a whole infrastructure in place, you need log-in agents, you need a back-end that captures all that stuff, you need monitoring tools, you need all the automation scripts for bringing the service up and monitor it. And so, that takes a lot of time to do right, and we learn a lot by doing this. And so the cloud-first part of these services means that we get to experience this ourselves with direct access to everything. Now taking that service with all of the additional features like autonomy, and bringing that to an on-premises world, we have to make sure we can package that so that all these pieces around it go along with it. And that takes a little bit more time, so we can do everything at the same time. And so what we've done with Autonomous Database is we created everything in Oracle Cloud, we have the whole system running really well, and then we've been able to sort of package that and shrink it into something that can be installed on-premises, but then connected into Oracle Cloud again. And so that way we can get all the telemetry over the metric, and that allows us to scale. Because part of providing a cloud service that runs on-prem in the customer environment is that we need to be able to remotely manage that similar to how that runs in our own cloud. Right, otherwise it doesn't scale. And so that takes a little bit of time, but we've done all that work, and now with Cloud at Customer Database that's really in place. >> Yeah, you really want to have that same cloud experience, whether with on-prem, in the public cloud, hybrid, et cetera. So, I want to explore a little bit more who is using Oracle Linux, and what's the driver for using it. Can you describe maybe some of the types of customers and why they buy? >> Sure, so we started this fourteen years ago, in 2006, October 25th, 2006. I remember that day very well; Penguins on stage and a big launch for Oracle Linux in San Francisco Moscone Center. So, look, the initial driver for Oracle Linux was to ensure that Oracle database customers or Oracle product customers had a good operating system experience, and the ability to be able to handle critical issues when that occurs, because typically a database runs the company's critical data: the most essential stuff that a company has is typically in a database, an Oracle database. And so when that thing has issues with the operating system, you don't want just to talk to multiple vendors and have finger-pointing, and having to explain to an operating system vendor how the database works. In the Unix world, we had a good relationship with the OS vendors, and the hardware vendors, they were the same. And they knew our products really well, and in the Linux world, that was very different. The OS vendor basically did not want to understand or learn anything about the products living on top. And so while to a certain extent that makes sense, it's an enterprise world where time is of the essence, and downtime needs to be limited absolutely. We can't have these arguments and such. And that was the driver, initially, for doing Oracle Linux. It was to ensure there was a Linux distribution really backed by us, that we could fix, that we could fully support. That was completely the original intent. And so the early customer base was database customers. Database and middleware. Mostly database. But that has then evolved quickly, and so what happened was, people say "Look, I have a thousand servers, a hundred run Oracle, so we'll run Oracle Linux on those hundred, and we'll run something else on those other nine-hundred." Now after a year or so, they realize that our support is really good; We fix all these issues, and so then they're like "Why are we having two Linux distributions? This thing works really well, it runs any application, it's fully compatible, so we'll do a thousand with Oracle Linux." And so the early days, the first few years, was definitely Oracle Database as the core driver, and then it sort of expanded to the rest of the estate. And over the years, we've added lots of features and functionality, like Ksplice, and so forth. We have an attractive pricing model for running on servers, and so now lots of our customers have a very small Oracle percentage running and many other things running. So it's really become a all-or-nothing play in the Linux space, and we're well-known now, so it's actually very good. >> You just mentioned Ksplice. We've been talking about cloud, and on-prem, and hybrid. Let's talk about security, because security really is a differentiator, particularly if you're going to start to put stuff in the cloud. Talk about Ksplice specifically, but generally security and your policy there. >> So, "Security first" is sort of what you hear us say and do, in everything we do. The database obviously security, on the Linux site security matters. Ksplice as a technology is there to do critical bug-fixing and make sure that we can apply security vulnerability fixes without affecting the customer, and not have downtime. And if you look at most of the cases or many of the cases where you have security vulnerabilities and exploits, it tends to be because systems were not patched. Why were they not patched? Well not that our customer doesn't understand that it's important, but it's a whole train of events that needs to happen. You have to, you get notified that there's a security issue in your operating system or application. Then, well, an application typically means it's a multi-layered setup. So if you have to bring your database server down, then you first have to coordinate with the application users to bring the app server down, cause that talks to the database. So to patch one system, you basically have to bring down the whole application stack. You have to negotiate with the DBAs, you have to negotiate with the app admins, you have to negotiate with the user. It takes weeks to do that and find time. Well during that time, you're vulnerable. So the only way, really, to address security in a scalable and reducing that window of time is to do it without affecting the customer. And so Casewise is something that, it's a company we acquired in 2009, and have since evolved in terms of capabilities, and so it allows us to patch the Linux terminal without downtime. We lock the kernel for 8 microseconds. It's literally no downtime. You don't have to bring down applications, the user doesn't see it, there's no hang, there's no delay. And so by doing that, you can run a Linux operating system, or gLinux, and you can be fully patched on a system that hasn't rebooted for 3 years. You don't even know it. And so by doing that type of stuff, it makes customers more secure, and it avoids them-- It saves them a lot of money in terms of dealing with project management and so forth, but it really keeps them secure. And so we do that for the Linux kernel, we do that for some of the libraries on top that are critical like OpenSSL and 2 LVC, and, you know one example-- I can give you two examples. So one example is, Heartbleed was this bug in OpenSSL a number of years ago. And so everyone had to patch their SSH server. And that meant, basically, systems around the world had to reboot. Like a whole IT reboot across the world. With Ksplice today, if Heartbleed were to happen tomorrow, we would be able to patch this online for all the Oracle Linux customers without any downtime. No reboots, no restarting of applications, everything keeps running. The amount of money saved would be massive, and also, of course, the headache. Another example is, and this was in Oracle Cloud, when some of these CPU bugs that happened a few years ago that were rather damaging on the cloud side, where you could basically see memory potentially of other CPUs running, the cloud is incredibly critical. We were basically able to basically patch our entire cloud in four hours. And the customer didn't know, right, a hundred and twenty million patches, or something, that we applied within four hours, all online, without any downtime. And so that technology has been really helpful, both for us to run our cloud, but the exact same patches and same fixes go to customers on-premises as well. But this comes back to the whole, what we do in cloud we also do for customer. And I think that's a unique thing that we have at Oracle which is quite fascinating. The operating system we run for our customers, the operating system that's the host part of VMs, is the exact same binary and source code that we make available, just to be clear, the exact same binaries are the ones that you run as a customer on-premises. So if you run Oracle Linux with KVM, you run VMs, you're actually running the exact same stuff as we run underneath our customer's stuff. Nobody else does that, everyone else has a black box. So I think that helps a little bit with transparency as well. >> Yeah, and that homogeneity just creates an environment, you're talking about that sort of security mindset, it's critical, you're not just bolting it on, it's part of the culture. But you started your career, and then of course you were a Linux person when you came to Oracle, but then I think you spent some time in database, back in the day when there were serious database wars going on, before Oracle became the king of database. So now you've got, obviously, this great portfolio, and a lot of really sharp software developers; What should we expect going forward, from Oracle? What should we look for? >> You know, I was talking to some, I was welcoming some interns to the company, for their summer internship yesterday, and one of the things I mentioned to them was that -- so cloud obviously gives us a lot of opportunities, but there's a number of things. One is, we have such a breadth of applications and software and hardware together. We have the servers, we have the storage, we have the operating systems, we have the database layer and so forth, and we have the cloud side, and one of the great opportunities, and I think we've shown a lot of this happening with the ability to create something like Autonomous Database, is to combine all these things. Right, we have such a broad portfolio of really cool technology that by itself is okay, but if you combine the things it really becomes awesome. You cannot create autonomous database without having autonomous learning. You cannot create those two and make them really safe without also controlling the firmware on the hardware and so forth. So by being able to combine all these layers, and by having a really great relationship across the teams within the company, that opens up a lot of opportunities to do stuff really quickly. And having the scale for that. I think that has been, for the last few years, a really great thing, but I can see that being one of the advantages that we have going forward. We have Oracle Fusion Applications, which is incredibly popular, and has great growth, and then we have that running on Oracle Cloud, that talks to Oracle Autonomous Database, so we bring all these pieces together. And no other SaaS vendor can do that, because they don't have these other pieces. They have one area, we have all of them. And so that's the exciting part for me, it's not so much about making my own world better, and having Linux be better, and Casewise and so forth, which is important, but that becoming part of the bigger picture. And that's the exciting part. >> Well, Oracle's always invested in RND, we've made that point many, many times. Whether it's database, you know Fusion was a painful but worthy effort, the whole public cloud piece, obviously many acquisitions, but the investments that you've made in open-source as well, Wim, you're a great spokesperson, and a great representative of the open-source community generally, and then Oracle specifically, so thanks very much for coming on theCUBE and sharing with us the state of the penguin, and best of luck. >> You're welcome. Thank you, thanks for having me. >> Alright, and thank you for watching, everybody. This is Dave Vellante for theCUBE. We'll see you next time. (cheerful music).

>> From theCUBE studios in Palo Alto and Boston, connecting with thought-leaders all around the world, this is a Cube Conversation. >> Hi everybody, this is Dave Vellante. Welcome to this Cube Conversation. We're really excited to have Wim Coekaerts in, he is the senior vice-president of software development at Oracle. Wim, it's great to have you on, and, you know I often say I wish we were face-to-face but if we were you'd have to cut off my tie, cause developers and ties just don't go together. >> No, I know, and this is my normal outfit, so this is me wherever I go. Hi again, good to see you. >> Yeah, great to see you. So, of course, you know a lot of people are confused about Oracle, and open-source, they say "Oracle? Open-source? What is that all about?" But I think you're misunderstood. People don't, first of all, realize you as the leader of the software-development community inside of Oracle, I mean, you've been involved in Linux since the early 90s. But you guys have a lot of committers, you do a lot. I want to talk about that. What is up with Oracle, and open-source? >> Ah, well, it's a broad question. So, you know, a couple of things. One is, we have many different areas within the company that are dealing with open-source. So we have the cloud team doing a lot of stuff around cloud SDKs and support for different languages like Python and Go, and of course Java and so forth, so they do a lot around ensuring that the Oracle ecosystem is integrated in the open-source tools that customers use, or developers use, Terraform companies and so forth. And then you have the Java team, and so forth. Java is open-source and then the Graal project, GraalVM which is a polyglot compiler that can run Java, and Python, and Javascript and so forth together in one. VM do really cool optimizations, that's an open-source project, also on GitHub. There's of course MySQL, which is along with Java, they're probably the two most popular and widely used open-source projects out there. There's VirtualBox which is of course also a very popular project that's open-source. There's all the work we do around Linux. And I think one of the things is that, when you have so many different areas, doing things that are for that area, then as a developer or as a customer, you typically just deal with that group. And what you see is, oh you're talking to the Java developers, so you know what's going on around Java. The Java developers might not necessarily say, "Oh well we also do MySQL, and we do Linux and VirtualBox and so forth," and so you get a rather myopic, narrow view of the larger company. When you add all these things up, and there will be one big slide that says "This is Oracle, these are all these open source projects," and there's multiple ways. One is, we have projects that we've open-sourced and all the code came from us and we made it publicly available, we're the main contributor and we get contributions back. There are other projects where we contribute to third-party in terms of enhancing things, like I said with the Cloud Team, and then in general something like Linux where we're part of an external project and we participate in development of that project at large. And so there's these three different ways, when you count up all the developers that we have that deal with open-source on a daily basis. And in terms of contributions, in terms of bug fixes, testing, and so forth, it's thousands, literally, full-time paid developers. And of course, all the projects are all either on GitHub or similar sites that are very popular. So yeah, I think the misunderstood is probably a lack of knowledge of the breadth of what we do. And, you know, our primary goal is to provide services and products to customers, and so the open-source part is sort of embedded in a development methodology. But that's not something we sell or market separately, we just work with customers and products and services, and so in some cases it's not well-understood. >> Yeah. Well, we're talking of course, we're talking about the state of the penguin, I think it's important for people to understand, Oracle got into the Linux game in the 90s, maybe the latter part of the 90s and Oracle, of course, wants to make Linux-- wants to make Oracle, it's applications and database run better on Linux, but as you're pointing out, your Linux distro, full support, end-to-end, thousands of people in your open-source community, and the contributions that you make to Linux, many if not most, they go upstream, everybody can benefit from those, but of course you want an Oracle distro that is going to make Oracle stuff run better, that's always kind of been the Oracle way. >> Well, so, yes, two things though. One is, so everything we do is upstream. So we have no Linux patches that are not contributed upstream; There's no proprietary code in Oracle Linux at all, it's all completely open, publicly available: the source code, the change log, all the commits, it's fully open and public, which sometimes is not well-understood, but it's completely open. And, everything we do in terms of feature development or functionality or bug fixes goes upstream to the Linux kernel mail-list. It's actually, it's the only way to be able to manage a Linux distribution and be a Linux vendor is to live in that eco-system. Otherwise, the cost of maintaining your own fork, so to speak, is very high and it doesn't really solve the problem. Now, the functionality we work on obviously is focused on making Oracle products run better, making Oracle Cloud run better, and so forth. However, again, what's important to understand, though, is an Oracle database is a program running on an operating system. It does IO, it does networking, it deals with memory management, lots of processing. So, for the most part, the things that we work on to improve that helps everyone out, right? It helps every other database run better, or helps every other language run better. So none of these changes are specific to Oracle, they're just things that we found doing performance benchmarks and testing and so forth, where we say "Hey, if Linux did the following, it would make boot-up faster. Now boot-up has nothing to do with the database. But our customers run on 1-terabyte, 4-terabyte, 8-terabyte systems, and so booting up, and Linux starting up, and cleaning up memory takes a long time. So we want to reduce that from an availability point of view. So here, we're now talking about just enterprise for you. So there's this broad set of things we work on that definitely help us, but they're actually really completely generic and help everyone out. >> Yeah, that's great. So I wanted to kind of get that out of the way and help our audience understand that. So let's get into it a little bit; What are you seeing, what's going on in IT, pick your observation space and your vision of what you see happening out there. >> Well, you know, it's very interesting, it's sort of, there's two... there's sort of two worlds, right, there's the cloud world and the move to cloud, and there's the on-premises world, where people run their systems on their own. And, one of the things that we've learned is, when you talk about machine-learning, obviously, is something that's very popular these days, and automation. And so in order to rely on machine-learning well, and have algorithms that are very effective, you need lots of data. And so being a cloud vendor, and having Linux in our cloud on tens of thousands, or hundreds of thousands of servers, or more, allows us to have a view of how an operating system works across an incredibly large scale. So we get lots of data. And so for us to figure out which algorithms work well in terms of how can we do network optimizations, how can we discover anomalies on the storage site, and deal with it and so forth, we can do that at scale. And what's interesting is, how do we then bring that on-prem? Well, if we can get the data and the learning done, the training done, in our cloud directly, then when we provide that service also for people running Oracle Linux on premises then that will work. The alternative is to have point solutions where you provide something to a customer, and he needs to learn something from small amounts of data. That doesn't work so well. So I think having both worlds, on-prem and cloud directly, allows us to kind of benefit from that. And I think that's important, because lots of customers are interested in going to cloud. Many of the enterprises have not yet. You know, they're starting, but there's still a huge on-premises space that's important. And so by being able to get them familiar with how these things work at scale, autonomy is again important, right, Autonomous Database is incredibly popular and so forth, that allows us to then say, "Here, try these things out here, it's a service. We can show you the benefits right away," and then as that improves we bring that, to a certain extent, on-premises as well. And then they can have it in both places. And that, I think, is something, again, that's relatively unique but also very important, is that we want to provide services and products that act similarly on-premises as well as in cloud, because at some point when people move we want to make that transition seamless. And what you have today for the most part is one world that's on-prem, and then the cloud world is completely different. And that is a big barrier of moving, and so we want to reduce that, we can run the same operating system local as well as cloud, you can the same functionality, and then that helps transition people over much easier. >> Yeah, well Oracle actually was one of the -- I think Oracle was the first company to actually market same-same, you actually used that term. Others put forth that concept, but Oracle was the first to announce products like Cloud at Customer, that were same-same, now it took some time to actually get it perfected, and get it to market, but the point is, and we've written about this, is Oracle, because of the ascendancy of cloud, flipped and has a cloud-first mentality, and you just kind of referenced that, you just said, "And you can bring that to on-prem." So I wonder if you could talk about that cloud-first mentality, and the impact on hybrid. >> So yeah, I think the cloud-first part is of course in cloud we work on services moreso than products that we deliver. And there's a number of things that are happening. So one is that we obviously continue to provide products to customers, you can download Oracle Linux, you can download the database and what not, you can install it on your own, you can do the traditional way of working. Then in the cloud-world, what typically happens is "Oh, I use a database service. I'm not installing anything, I push a button and I get an IP address and a SQL that connects extremely quickly to the database." And we take care of everything underneath that is on this database. Now, in order to do that, you need a whole infrastructure in place, you need log-in agents, you need a back-end that captures all that stuff, you need monitoring tools, you need all the automation scripts for bringing the service up and monitor it. And so, that takes a lot of time to do right, and we learn a lot by doing this. And so the cloud-first part of these services means that we get to experience this ourselves with direct access to everything. Now taking that service with all of the additional features like autonomy, and bringing that to an on-premises world, we have to make sure we can package that so that all these pieces around it go along with it. And that takes a little bit more time, so we can do everything at the same time. And so what we've done with Autonomous Database is we created everything in Oracle Cloud, we have the whole system running really well, and then we've been able to sort of package that and shrink it into something that can be installed on-premises, but then connected into Oracle Cloud again. And so that way we can get all the telemetry over the metric, and that allows us to scale. Because part of providing a cloud service that runs on-prem in the customer environment is that we need to be able to remotely manage that similar to how that runs in our own cloud. Right, otherwise it doesn't scale. And so that takes a little bit of time, but we've done all that work, and now with Cloud at Customer Database that's really in place. >> Yeah, you really want to have that same cloud experience, whether with on-prem, in the public cloud, hybrid, et cetera. So, I want to explore a little bit more who is using Oracle Linux, and what's the driver for using it. Can you describe maybe some of the types of customers and why they buy? >> Sure, so we started this fourteen years ago, in 2006, October 25th, 2006. I remember that day very well; Penguins on stage and a big launch for Oracle Linux in San Francisco Moscone Center. So, look, the initial driver for Oracle Linux was to ensure that Oracle database customers or Oracle product customers had a good operating system experience, and the ability to be able to handle critical issues when that occurs, because typically a database runs the company's critical data: the most essential stuff that a company has is typically in a database, an Oracle database. And so when that thing has issues with the operating system, you don't want just to talk to multiple vendors and have finger-pointing, and having to explain to an operating system vendor how the database works. In the Unix world, we had a good relationship with the OS vendors, and the hardware vendors, they were the same. And they knew our products really well, and in the Linux world, that was very different. The OS vendor basically did not want to understand or learn anything about the products living on top. And so while to a certain extent that makes sense, it's an enterprise world where time is of the essence, and downtime needs to be limited absolutely. We can't have these arguments and such. And that was the driver, initially, for doing Oracle Linux. It was to ensure there was a Linux distribution really backed by us, that we could fix, that we could fully support. That was completely the original intent. And so the early customer base was database customers. Database and middleware. Mostly database. But that has then evolved quickly, and so what happened was, people say "Look, I have a thousand servers, a hundred run Oracle, so we'll run Oracle Linux on those hundred, and we'll run something else on those other nine-hundred." Now after a year or so, they realize that our support is really good; We fix all these issues, and so then they're like "Why are we having two Linux distributions? This thing works really well, it runs any application, it's fully compatible, so we'll do a thousand with Oracle Linux." And so the early days, the first few years, was definitely Oracle Database as the core driver, and then it sort of expanded to the rest of the estate. And over the years, we've added lots of features and functionality, like Ksplice, and so forth. We have an attractive pricing model for running on servers, and so now lots of our customers have a very small Oracle percentage running and many other things running. So it's really become a all-or-nothing play in the Linux space, and we're well-known now, so it's actually very good. >> You just mentioned Ksplice. We've been talking about cloud, and on-prem, and hybrid. Let's talk about security, because security really is a differentiator, particularly if you're going to start to put stuff in the cloud. Talk about Ksplice specifically, but generally security and your policy there. >> So, "Security first" is sort of what you hear us say and do, in everything we do. The database obviously security, on the Linux site security matters. Ksplice as a technology is there to do critical bug-fixing and make sure that we can apply security vulnerability fixes without affecting the customer, and not have downtime. And if you look at most of the cases or many of the cases where you have security vulnerabilities and exploits, it tends to be because systems were not patched. Why were they not patched? Well not that our customer doesn't understand that it's important, but it's a whole train of events that needs to happen. You have to, you get notified that there's a security issue in your operating system or application. Then, well, an application typically means it's a multi-layered setup. So if you have to bring your database server down, then you first have to coordinate with the application users to bring the app server down, cause that talks to the database. So to patch one system, you basically have to bring down the whole application stack. You have to negotiate with the DBAs, you have to negotiate with the app admins, you have to negotiate with the user. It takes weeks to do that and find time. Well during that time, you're vulnerable. So the only way, really, to address security in a scalable and reducing that window of time is to do it without affecting the customer. And so Casewise is something that, it's a company we acquired in 2009, and have since evolved in terms of capabilities, and so it allows us to patch the Linux terminal without downtime. We lock the kernel for 8 microseconds. It's literally no downtime. You don't have to bring down applications, the user doesn't see it, there's no hang, there's no delay. And so by doing that, you can run a Linux operating system, or gLinux, and you can be fully patched on a system that hasn't rebooted for 3 years. You don't even know it. And so by doing that type of stuff, it makes customers more secure, and it avoids them-- It saves them a lot of money in terms of dealing with project management and so forth, but it really keeps them secure. And so we do that for the Linux kernel, we do that for some of the libraries on top that are critical like OpenSSL and 2 LVC, and, you know one example-- I can give you two examples. So one example is, Heartbleed was this bug in OpenSSL a number of years ago. And so everyone had to patch their SSH server. And that meant, basically, systems around the world had to reboot. Like a whole IT reboot across the world. With Ksplice today, if Heartbleed were to happen tomorrow, we would be able to patch this online for all the Oracle Linux customers without any downtime. No reboots, no restarting of applications, everything keeps running. The amount of money saved would be massive, and also, of course, the headache. Another example is, and this was in Oracle Cloud, when some of these CPU bugs that happened a few years ago that were rather damaging on the cloud side, where you could basically see memory potentially of other CPUs running, the cloud is incredibly critical. We were basically able to basically patch our entire cloud in four hours. And the customer didn't know, right, a hundred and twenty million patches, or something, that we applied within four hours, all online, without any downtime. And so that technology has been really helpful, both for us to run our cloud, but the exact same patches and same fixes go to customers on-premises as well. But this comes back to the whole, what we do in cloud we also do for customer. And I think that's a unique thing that we have at Oracle which is quite fascinating. The operating system we run for our customers, the operating system that's the host part of VMs, is the exact same binary and source code that we make available, just to be clear, the exact same binaries are the ones that you run as a customer on-premises. So if you run Oracle Linux with KVM, you run VMs, you're actually running the exact same stuff as we run underneath our customer's stuff. Nobody else does that, everyone else has a black box. So I think that helps a little bit with transparency as well. >> Yeah, and that homogeneity just creates an environment, you're talking about that sort of security mindset, it's critical, you're not just bolting it on, it's part of the culture. But you started your career, and then of course you were a Linux person when you came to Oracle, but then I think you spent some time in database, back in the day when there were serious database wars going on, before Oracle became the king of database. So now you've got, obviously, this great portfolio, and a lot of really sharp software developers; What should we expect going forward, from Oracle? What should we look for? >> You know, I was talking to some, I was welcoming some interns to the company, for their summer internship yesterday, and one of the things I mentioned to them was that -- so cloud obviously gives us a lot of opportunities, but there's a number of things. One is, we have such a breadth of applications and software and hardware together. We have the servers, we have the storage, we have the operating systems, we have the database layer and so forth, and we have the cloud side, and one of the great opportunities, and I think we've shown a lot of this happening with the ability to create something like Autonomous Database, is to combine all these things. Right, we have such a broad portfolio of really cool technology that by itself is okay, but if you combine the things it really becomes awesome. You cannot create autonomous database without having autonomous learning. You cannot create those two and make them really safe without also controlling the firmware on the hardware and so forth. So by being able to combine all these layers, and by having a really great relationship across the teams within the company, that opens up a lot of opportunities to do stuff really quickly. And having the scale for that. I think that has been, for the last few years, a really great thing, but I can see that being one of the advantages that we have going forward. We have Oracle Fusion Applications, which is incredibly popular, and has great girth, and then we have that running on Oracle Cloud, that talks to Oracle Autonomous Database, so we bring all these pieces together. And no other SaaS vendor can do that, because they don't have these other pieces. They have one area, we have all of them. And so that's the exciting part for me, it's not so much about making my own world better, and having Linux be better, and Casewise and so forth, which is important, but that becoming part of the bigger picture. And that's the exciting part. >> Well, Oracle's always invested in RND, we've made that point many, many times. Whether it's database, you know Fusion was a painful but worthy effort, the whole public cloud piece, obviously many acquisitions, but the investments that you've made in open-source as well, Wim, you're a great spokesperson, and a great representative of the open-source community generally, and then Oracle specifically, so thanks very much for coming on theCUBE and sharing with us the state of the penguin, and best of luck. >> You're welcome. Thank you, thanks for having me. >> Alright, and thank you for watching, everybody. This is Dave Vellante for theCUBE. We'll see you next time. (cheerful music).

>> Announcer: From theCUBE Studios in Palo Alto in Boston, connecting with thought leaders all around the world. This is a Cube Conversation. >> Hi everybody, this is Dave Vellante and welcome to this Cube Conversation. Really excited to have Wim Coekaerts and he is the senior vice president of software development at Oracle. Wim, it's great to have you on. And you know what I often say I wish we were face to face but if we were you'd have to cut off my tie 'cause developers and ties just don't go together. >> No, I know, and this is my normal outfit so this is me, wherever I go. Hi again, good to see you. >> Yeah, great to see you. So of course, you know a lot of people are confused about Oracle and open source. They say, Oracle, open source? What is that all about? But I think you misunderstood. People don't first of all realize you as the leader of the software development community inside of Oracle, I mean, you've been involved in Linux since the early '90s but you guys have a lot of committers. You do a lot, I want to talk about that. What is up with Oracle and open source? >> Well, it's a broad question. So you know, a couple of things. One is we have many different areas within the company that are dealing with open source, right? So we have the cloud team doing a lot of stuff around the cloud SDKs and support for different languages like Python and go and of course Java and so forth. So they do a lot around ensuring that the Oracle ecosystem is integrated in the open source tools that customers use, or developers use Terraform, so on and so forth. And then you have the Java team, and so of course Java is open source. And then, the Graal project, GraalVM, which is a polyglot compiler that run Java and Python and JavaScript and so forth together in one VM, do really cool optimizations, that's an open source project. Also on GitHub, there's of course MySQL which is along with Java, they're probably the two most popular and widely used open source projects out there. There's VirtualBox which is of course also a very popular project that's open sources is all the work we do around Linux. And I think one of the things is that when you have so many different areas doing things that are for that area, then as a developer or as a customer, you typically just deal with that group and what you see is, oh, you're talking to the Java developers so you know what's going on around Java. The Java developers might not necessarily say, oh, and we also do MySQL and we do Linux and VirtualBox and so forth. And so you get sort of a rather myopic narrow view of the larger company. When you add all these things up and there would be one big slide that says, "This is Oracle, these are all these open source projects there". And there's multiple ways, right? One is we have projects that we've opened sourced and all the code came from us and we made it publicly available. We are the main distributor and we get contributions back. There are other projects where we contribute to third party in terms of enhancing things, like a separate the cloud team. And then in general, something like Linux where, you know, we're part of an external project and we participate in the development of that project at large. And so there's these three different ways when you count up all the developers that we have that deal with open source on a daily basis and in terms of contributions, in terms of both Pyxis testing and so forth, it's thousands, literally, full time developers. And of course all the projects is on GitHub or similar sites that are very popular. So yeah, I think the misunderstood is probably a lack of knowledge of the breadth of what we do. And our primary goal is to provide services and products to customers. And so the open source part is sort of embedded in the development methodology, but that's not something we sell or market separately. We just work with customers and products and services. And so in some cases it's not well understood. >> Yeah, well, we're talking, of course we're talking about the state of the Penguin. I think it's part of what people understand. I mean, Oracle got into the Linux game, in the '90s, maybe the latter part of the '90s and Oracle of course wants to make Linux, wants to make Oracle its applications and database run better on Linux. But as you're pointing out you're Linux distro, full support, end-to-end, thousands of people in your open source community and the contributions that you make to Linux, many if not most, they go upstream, everybody can benefit from those. But of course you want an Oracle distro that is going to make Oracle stuff run better. That's always kind of been the Oracle way. >> Well, so yes, two things. The one is that, so everything we do is upstream. So we have no Linux patches that are not contributed upstream. There's no proprietary code in Oracle Linux at all. It's all completely open, publicly available. The source code, the change log, all the commits, everything. It's fully open and public, which sometimes is not well understood, but it's completely open. And everything we do in terms of feature development or functionality or bug fixes goes upstream to the Linux kernel mailers. It's actually, it's the only way to be able to manage a Linux distribution and be a Linux vendor is to live in that ecosystem. Otherwise, the cost of maintaining your own forks so to speak is very high and it doesn't really solve problems. Now the functionality we worked on obviously is focused on making Oracle products run better, making Oracle cloud run better and so forth. However, again, what's important to understand though is an Oracle database is a program running on an operating system that does IO, it does networking, it does memory, it deals with memory management, lots of processes. So for the most part, the things we work on to improve that, helps everyone out, right? It helps every other database run better or it helps every other language run better. So none of these changes are specific to Oracle. They're just things that we found doing performance benchmarks and testing and so forth. But we say, "Hey, if Linux did the following, it would make boot up fast." Now boot up has nothing to do with the database. But if our customers run on one terabyte, four terabyte, eight terabyte systems, and so booting up and Linux starting up and cleaning up memory takes a long time. So we want to reduce that from an availability point of view. So here we're now talking about just enterprise, right? And so there's this broad set of things we work on that definitely help us, but they're actually really completely generic and help everyone customer. >> Yeah, that's great, good. So I wanted to kind of get that out of the way and help our audience understand it. So let's get into it a little bit. What are you seeing, what's going on in IT? Pick your observation space and your vision of what you see happening out there? >> Well it's very interesting. There's sort of two worlds, right? There's the cloud world and move to cloud and there's the on-premise world where people run their systems on their own. And one of the things that we've learned is, when you talk about machine learning obviously is something that's very popular these days and automation. And so in order to rely on machine learning well and have algorithms that are very effective, you need lots of data. And so being a cloud vendor and having Linux in our cloud on tens of thousands or hundreds of thousands of servers or more allows us to have a view of how an operating system works across incredibly large scale. So we get lots of data and so for us to figure out which algorithms work well in terms of, how can we do network customizations, how can we discover anomalies on the storage side and deal with it and so forth, we can do that at scale. And what's interesting is how do we then bring that to on-prem? Well, if we can get the data and the learning done the training done in our cloud directly, then when we provide that service also to people running Oracle Linux on-premises, then that will work. The alternative is to have point solutions where you provide something to a customer and he needs to learn something from small amounts of data. That doesn't work so well. So I think having both worlds on-prem and cloud directly allows us to kind of benefit from that. And I think that's important because lots of customers are interested in going to cloud. Many of the enterprises have not yet, you know, they're starting, but there's still a huge on-premises space that's important. And so by being able to get them familiar with how these things work at scale, autonomy is again important, right? Autonomous database is incredibly popular and so forth. That allows us to then say, "Here, try these things out here. "It's a service, we can show you the benefits right away". And then as that improves, we bring that on to a certain extent on-premise as well and then they can have it in both places. And that I think is something, again, that's relatively unique but also very important is that we want to create an... we want to provide services and products that act similarly on-premises as well as the cloud. Because at some point when people move, we want to make that transition seamless. And what you have today for the most part is one world that's on-prem and then the cloud world is completely different and that is a big barrier of moving. And so we want to reduce that. You can run the same operating system local as well as cloud, you can get the same banality and then that helps transition people over much easier. >> Yeah, well, Oracle actually was one of the... I think but Oracle was the first company to actually market same-same, you actually use that term. Others put forth that concept, but Oracle was the first to announce products like cloud to customer that was same-same now it took some time to actually get it perfective and get it to market. But the point is, and we've written about this is that Oracle, because of the ascendancy of cloud flipped and has a cloud first mentality and you just kind of referenced that you just said, "And you can bring that to on-prem". So I wonder if you could talk about that cloud first mentality and the impact on hype? >> So yeah, I think the clouds first part is of course in cloud we work on services more so than products that we deliver and there's a number of things that are happening. So one is we obviously continue to provide products across you can download Oracle Linux, you can download the database in web blog, you can install it on your own, right? You can do to the traditional way of working. Then in a cloud world, what typically happens is, oh, I use a database service. I'm not installing anything. I push a button and I get an IP address and a SQL, and a connect string and connect to a database. And we take care of everything underneath the database. Now, in order to do that, you need to hold infrastructure in place, right? You need lugging agents, you need a backend that captures all that stuff, you need monitoring tools, you need all the automation scripts for bringing this service up and monitor it. And so that takes a lot of time to do, right? And we learned a lot by doing this. And so the cloud first part of the services means that we get to experience this ourselves with direct access to everything. Now taking that service with all of the additional features like autonomy and bringing that to an on-premises world, we have to make sure we can package that so that all these pieces around it go along with it. And that takes a little bit more time, so we can't do everything at the same time. And so what we've done with autonomous database is we created everything in Oracle cloud, you have the whole system running really well. And then we've been able to sort of package that and shrink it into something that can be installed on-premises but then connected into Oracle cloud again. And so that way we can get all the telemetry, all the metrics, and that allows us to scale because part of providing a cloud service that runs on-prem in the customer environment is that we need to be able to remotely manage that, similar to how we manage something that runs in their own cloud, right? Otherwise it doesn't scale. And so that takes a little bit of time, but we've done all that work and now we've got our customer database that that's really in place. >> Yeah, you really want to have that same cloud experience, whether it's on-prem, in the public cloud, hybrid, et cetera. So I want to explore a little bit more. Who is using Oracle Linux and what's the driver for using it? Can you describe maybe some of the types of customers and why they buy? >> Sure, so we started 14 years ago, right? 2006, October 25th, 2006 (giggles). I remember that day very well. Penguin's on stage and a big launch for Linux in San Francisco Moscone Center. So look, the initial driver for Oracle Linux was to ensure that Oracle database customers or Oracle product customers had a good operating system experience, right? And the ability to be able to handle critical issues when that occurs because typically a database runs the company's critical data. The most essential stuff that a company has is typically in a database, in Oracle database. And so when that thing has issues with the operating system, you don't want just to talk to multiple vendors and have finger pointing and having to explain to an operating system vendor how the database works. In the Unix world, we had a glitch relationship with the OS vendors and the hardware vendors. They were the same. And they knew our products really well, and in the Linux world that was very different. The OS vendor basically did not want to understand or learn anything about products living on top. And so, while, to a certain extent, that makes sense. It's an enterprise world where time is of the essence and downtime needs to be limited absolutely. We can't have these arguments and such. And so that was the driver initially for doing Oracle. So it was to ensure there was a Linux distribution really backed by us that we could fix and we could fully support, right? That was completely the original intent. And so the early customer base was database customers. Database and middleware, mostly database. So but that has then evolved quickly, and so, (clears throat) sorry. What happened was, people would say, "Look, have a thousand servers, a hundred run Oracle, "so we'll run Oracle Linux on those hundred "and we run, something else on those other 900." Now after a year or so, they realized that our support was really good. We fixed all these issues and so then they're like, "Why are we having two Linux distributions? "This thing works really well. "It's runs any application, it's fully compatible. "So we'll just go a thousand with Oracle Linux". And so the early days, the first few years was definitely Oracle database as the core driver and then it sort of expanded to the rest of the estate. And over the years (clears throat), we've added lots of features and functionality, like Ksplice and so forth. We have an attractive pricing model for running on servers. And so now lots of our customers have a very small Oracle percentage running and many other things running. So it's really become a all or nothing play in the Linux space and we're well known now, so it's been actually very good. >> You just mentioned Ksplice. I mean, we've been talking about cloud and on-prem and hybrid and let's talk about security because security really is a differentiator but particularly if you're going to start to put stuff into the cloud. Talk about Ksplice specifically, but generally security and your policy there. >> So security first is sort of what you hear us say and do in everything we do, right? The database obviously security on the Linux side, security matters, Ksplice as the technology is there to do critical bug fixing and make sure that we can apply security vulnerability fixes without affecting the customer and not have downtime, right? And if you look at, most of the cases or many of the cases where you have security vulnerabilities and exploits, it tends to be because systems were not patched. Why were they not patched? Well, not that a customer doesn't understand that it's important, but it's a whole train of events that needed to happen. You have to get notified that there's a security issue in your operating system or application. Then, well, an application typically means it's a multi-tiered set up. So if you have to bring your database server down, then you first have to coordinate with the application users to bring the app server down because that talks to the database. So to patch one system, you basically have to bring down all application stacks. You have to negotiate with the DBAs, you have to negotiate with the app admins, you have to negotiate with the user. It takes weeks to do that and find time. Well, during that time you're vulnerable. So the only way really to address security in a scalable way and reducing that window of time is to do it without effecting the customer, right? And so Ksplice is something that... It's a company we acquired in 2009 and have since evolved in terms of capabilities. And so it allows us to patch the Linux kernel without downtime, right? We lock the kernel for a microsecond, so it's literally no downtime. You don't have to bring down applications. The user doesn't see it. There's no hang, there's no delay. And so by doing that, you can run the Linux operating system, Oracle Linux, and you can be fully patched on a system that hasn't rebooted for three years and you don't even know it. And so by doing that type of stuff, it makes customers more secure and it avoids them... It saves them a lot of money in terms of dealing with project management and so forth, but it really keeps them secure. And so we do that for the Linux kernel. We do that for some of the libraries on up that are critical, like OpenSSL and glibc and one example, I can give you two examples. So one example is Heartbleed was this bug in OpenSSL a number of years ago and so everyone had to patch their SSH server. And that meant basically, systems around the world had to reboot, like a whole active reboot across the world. With the Ksplice today if Heartbleed were to happen tomorrow, we would be able to patch this online for all the Oracle Linux customers without any downtime. No reboots, no restarting of applications, everything keeps running. The amount of money saved would be massive, right? And also of course, the headache. Another example is, (clears throat) and this was an Oracle cloud when some of these CPU bugs that happened a few years ago that were rather damaging on the cloud side, right? Where you could basically see memory of potentially of other machines running that the cloud it's incredibly critical. We were basically able to patch our entire cloud in four hours and the customer didn't know, right? 120 million patches or something that we applied within four hours all online without any down time. And so that technology has been really helpful both for us to run our cloud, but the exact same patches and same fixes go to customers on-premises as well. But this comes back to the whole what we do in cloud, we also do for customer, and I think that's a unique thing that we have at Oracle, which is quite fascinating, right? The operating system we run for our customers, the operating system that's the host for the VM is the exact same binary and source code that we make available, just to be clear. The exact same binaries are the ones that you run as a customer on premises. So you run Oracle Linux with KVM, you run VMs, you're actually running the same stuff as we do for our... That we run underneath our customer stuff. Nobody else does that. Everyone else has a black box. So I think that helps a little bit with transparency as well. >> Yeah, and that homogeneity just creates an environment you're talking about sort of the security mindset is critical. You're not just bolting it on, it's part of the culture. Look, you were, you know, started your career, and then of course you were a Linux person when you came to Oracle, but then I think you've spent some time in the database back in the day when there were some serious database wars going on before Oracle, became the king of database. So now you've got obviously this great portfolio and a lot of really sharp software developers. What should we expect going forward from Oracle? What should we look for? >> I was welcoming some interns to the company, (clears throat) for their summer internship yesterday. And one of the things that I, (clears throat) I'm sorry. One of the things I mentioned to them, was that one of the... So cloud obviously gives us a lot of opportunities, but there's a number of things. One is we have such a breadth of applications and software and hardware together, right? We have the servers, we have the storage, we have the operating systems, we have the database layer and so forth, and we have the cloud side. And one of the great opportunities and I think we've shown a lot of this happening with the ability to create something like autonomous database is to combine all these things, right? We have such a broad portfolio of really cool technology that by itself is okay, but if you combine the things, it really becomes awesome, right? You cannot create autonomous database without having autonomous Linux, right? You cannot create those two and make them really safe without also controlling the firmware on the hardware and so forth. So by being able to combine all these layers and by having a really great relationship across the teams within the company, that opens up a lot of opportunities to do stuff really quickly and having the scale for that. I think that has been for the last few years a really great thing but I can see that being one of the advantages that we have going forward, right? We have Oracle Fusion Applications, which is incredibly popular and has great growth. And then we have that running on Oracle cloud that talks to our autonomous database. So we bring all these pieces together and no other SaaS vendor can do that because they don't have these other pieces. They have one area, we have all of them. And so that's the exciting part for me is basic... It's not so much about making my own world better and having Linux be better and Ksplice and so forth, which is important, but that becoming part of the bigger picture. And that's the exciting part. >> Well, Oracle has always invested in R&D. We've made that point many many times, whether it's database, fusion was a painful but worthy (giggles) effort. The whole public cloud piece, obviously many acquisitions but the investments that you've made in open source as well. Wim, you're a great spokesperson and a great representative of the open source community generally, and an Oracle specifically. So thanks very much for coming on theCUBE and sharing with us the state of the Penguin. The best of luck. >> You're welcome. Thank you, thanks for having me. >> All right, and thank you for watching everybody. This is Dave Vellante for theCUBE. We'll see you next time. (soft music)

>> Announcer: Live from Las Vegas it's theCube. Covering VMworld 2017. Brought to you by VMware and its ecosystem partners. (upbeat techno music) >> Hi, I'm Stu Miniman here with Justin Warren. This is theCUBE's coverage of VMworld2017. Believe it or not it's our eighth year covering this show. About 23,000 here in attendance and pulls from around the world even though there is a European show. But happen to welcome to the program, a first time guest, to theCUBE, someone I've known for a number of years. So, great to pull you in front of the camera. Dan Frith who is a consultant with Penguin Punk. We had one of my guests this morning said, you know this is the punk rock set so it only makes sense that, you know, you've got the shoes and the hair, and even hit a punk show >> Dan: Yep. >> here in Vegas >> Dan: I did, I did. >> when you first got here. >> Dan: Yep. >> So, thanks for joining us. >> Thank you. Thanks for having me. >> So, Dan, just for our audience, give us a little bit about your background. You're heavily involved in the VMware community. You're a VIMA leader. >> Dan: Yeah. >> Tell us your background and what you're doing these days. >> Dan: Yeah, sure. Thanks, Stu. I've been working with Virtualization for about 15 year now. Started with Workstation, went to ESX 2. And sort of it all went from there. I thought that was pretty cool stuff. Kept me really busy for a long time. Branched out into further data center technologies. I'm really interested in things that go in racks, and how they can help people do stuff better, faster and smarter. >> Dan: Yeah. >> I tell you, I've been working with VMware for about the same time, 15 years. Had a little bit more hair and less gray, you know, when that started, I loved some of the IBM to TV commericals where it was like, "Where did all the servers go?" Racked it all up and things like that. To watch the evolution and the ebbs and flows in this community >> Dan: Yep. >> has been pretty cool. So, how important is VMware today in your ecosystem? >> Yeah, it's critical to what we do every day. A lot of our customers are very VMware focused. Not just for the high proviso. It's all management automation that we wrap around that stuff. NSX is becoming more and more critical to what we're doing. Got a lot of complicated cloud plays happening locally. NSX is really helping us to get where we need to be where traditionally maybe it was bit of a slower, harder process. We've certainly found stuff like that is really helping us get some good winds on the board. >> Could you unpack that a little bit for us? Definitely coming into the show, I hear a lot about NSX. Lots of customers doing what I taught. Some of the ecosystem at large is like when you really get in there's some complicated pieces. Networking, security, >> Dan: That's right. >> never going to be simple? >> Dan: Right. >> So what are some of the challenges? How do we get over some of them? And what does this really deliver? >> Yeah, I think some of the biggest challenges with networking and security in the enterprise isn't the actual tech anymore it's the way that we apply the processes to that tech, the policies, the frameworks and governments, the risk, compliance assessments, all that sort of stuff. People don't necessarily understand that world inside their business. Having something like NSX come in it gives them the opportunity to reassess what they're actually trying to achieve, what's critical from an application perspective down rather than just thinking about the infrastructure and the tools they're using. It's not just about switches, routers, firewalls anymore. It's about what I'm actually trying to achieve, what really needs to talk to what, and now I can make this happen with this tool that's actually really flexible and agile, and very easy to get up and running. >> But the thing around the security aspect of it in particular, is that it's not the same sort of audience that you would normally be talking to if you're a VMware sort of person. >> Dan: That's right. It's usually handled by someone completely different. Similarly, the networking can be a little bit funny as well because the networking people are all about the hardware, and the switches, and things that plug into it. And this virtual switching idea, when I first heard NSX you're going to teach BGP to virtualization? >> I know, >> and I think that's been very interesting as well. I think we saw the last 10 years the storage and virtualization guys seem to come together reasonably well and start to cooperate on stuff. And we're finally understanding what storage is to VMware guys and vice versa. Whereas the networking stuff is still that dark art where you have to have >> Yeah. >> a certain number of letters after your name to make it work. And the security guys, again, they're a whole different beast, right? They're kind of like the DBA's of the infrastructure world. >> So, how far along in using storage as sort of an analogy. How far down that journey of getting people together and to understand each other on both sides. >> Yeah, so I think its still pretty early days. I know VMware's been very bullish about what NSX can do to transform your infrastructure. But I think there's a lot of conversations that still need to be had at a reasonably high level in organizations to get people understanding exactly what they can do with this stuff, and I think realize the potential of what they can do. Sometimes it's not actually what they need to do now, it's what they need to do three years from now. And I think a lot of businesses just aren't planning ahead that far, right? >> Dan, I'm curious your take on the keynote this morning. Pat got on stage. I thought good energy. I thought it was one of his best keynotes that he's given. >> Dan: Absolutely. >> But for your audience, kind of in your geo, digital transformation, kind of the journey to cloud. How much of that kind of hit home for you? Any critiques that you'd give. >> So, cloud's obviously a hot topic where I'm based. The VMware AWS story is getting more and more interesting. But, again, for Australia still not so much. You've got it in one geo right now. Australia is not going to be enabled for awhile. It took AWS a long time to get a presence down there. >> I think if I heard right, they said within a year by the time we come back to VMWorld next year, which I think is going to be in Vegas unfortunately again, but they said we should be across all the Amazon availability zones. >> Yeah, in which case that could be tremendously interesting. But I've got to crunch a few numbers to make sure this really works because I like the idea. It's a neat idea. It's very good for those legacy enterprises that don't really want to get away from vSphere to Shared who've got the kind of crusty applications that don't really run very well on public cloud. But they're in the middle of their transformation piece, perhaps. They're trying to get cloud-native. This is a nice stepping stone. If VMware can execute on it, makes sense financially. >> So, what are some of the financial price points that you're seeing out there? You know, we've heard over the years, VMware sometimes is everybody's yelling about it, sometimes not as much, cloud is going to be the savior Or wow, it's really expensive- >> Dan: That's right, it sort of varies. I think one of the points this morning they said, "You can have a variable cost model." And a lot of the businesses I deal with they hate that stuff. They need to know every month how much they're going to spend. >> Stu: Yeah, CFO doesn't like uncertainty, right? >> Absolutely not. Yeah, and this kind of stuff can get out of control really quickly. I'm not yet convinced unless you put the right controls, governance, framework, all that stuff on top of it. That's going to be the key thing, I think, for the success of this. >> There's a lot of talk about innovation which involves change and risk. And so, if we're trying to keep things into constrained boxes where we may not understand exactly what it's going to be, then by definition we're reducing as much risk as we can which is kind of- >> What's been fascinating with the customers I work with who are all traditional enterprises, services, those types. They've got CIOs coming in and saying, "Let's go to cloud. Everyone's in the cloud." They've sent it all up there and they go, "Oh my three-tier application actually doesn't work in this cloud. I need to bring it back. We've got those people going through those cycles already locally. Yeah, there's a lot of innovation going on at a high level. But I think some of the homework hasn't been done, to make that successful. And I think that's what people need to focus more on is an application centric, or even a business outcome centric... You know we use 2,000 applications in the enterprise but what do they all do. >> Justin: What are they for? >> What are they for? Are they just there because they've always been there? Or can we carve some of this stuff out? >> Yeah, how do softwares and service and public cloud fit into that discussion. >> Yeah. So, I think they're going to be more and more critical. I think the maturity around some of the softwares and service offerings has been really good. People are loving the offloader risk and the offload our responsibility for SAS. I think some of the problem is around, again, it's compliance, risk, people aren't necessarily backing up their Office365 stuff. They're sort of relying on Microsoft to have things in place. They're potentially not realizing some of the risk they're exposing themselves to. Not that this stuff is dodgy but it's tricky to navigate how you actually protect- >> I was talking to a security person yesterday, and they were like, "Oh, yeah, no if I just use SAS I don't need to worry about the security, right?" And I was like, "No, you need to worry about it even more." >> Dan: Yeah, yeah. >> We've seen plenty of examples of people who have put data into AWS for example, and then their S3 bucket is just open for the world to see. >> Dan: That's right. The simplicity adds a bit more mystery where it probably shouldn't. >> Yeah, doing your homework and understanding the tools that you're about to go and use is important. >> Dan: Yeah, understanding the risks and understanding some of the consequences of your actions. It's not just about reducing the floor tiles on your own premises stuff. It's about understanding what the data is actually doing, where it's going, and what it's going to mean to someone if they get ahold of that data. >> Yeah, but it's not a new situation really. Cloud's been around for over ten years now. A lot of these ideas of IT working with the business because that's what IT is about. It's not exactly a radical concept. >> It's not a massive change in what we're doing. I think some of the problem is we haven't done that very well to begin with. Now, we've just put another infrastructure construct in place and gone, "Oh, well now well work with the business on this." Unfortunately, we still aren't working with the business. You still got pockets of the business doing their own thing. It's poorly understood. IT is a cost center, a pain, a drain on the business, if you will. And it's hard for them to, I think, bridge that gap. We need to focus a bit more on making the gap between what the business is trying to achieve and what IT can do to help them. I don't think the cloud necessarily takes that conversation away. >> Yeah, unfortunately the technologies never going to be a silver bullet but I heard you say that IT still is looked at as a cost center for a lot of your environments. And I hear people maybe they're too optimistic. Not only is IT a cost center, they're working with the business. Maybe IT is driving the business. Sounds like maybe you're not there quite yet. >> So, I don't think that's happening in the big enterprises just yet. The more conservative ones are still struggling, I think, with bridging that gap between IT and business. The ones who can't see the value of what they're doing from an IT perspective, they're always going to struggle with that kind of stuff. >> How about just a general concept of digital transformation. In your area is that something, are people embracing it? I've read a great article actually by one of the networking vendors, and he said, "Look, people might not agree with digital transformation but digital disruption is definitely real." >> Absolutely. >> Stu: What are you seeing? >> If there's a way we can shoehorn a way of doing things differently into traditional business, into traditional IT companies as well, and making them understand that they're not just there to take all their money and not necessarily deliver on all of their promises. And if the business can start understanding that their is some value in IT, then I'm all for digital disruption if that's a mechanism to make that happen. Realistically though, I'm still faced with the same challenges of legacy software being out of support, and hardware that's sweating the asset, taking it a little too far. Those kind of problems are realistically what I'm still seeing every day. >> Kind of like the concept that Pat talked about in the keynote today of cyber hygiene. Just doing the basics >> Dan: That's right. >> Dan: Doing the basics. And I think some people are struggling with those basics because they've never done it or they've sort of forgotten how to do it, or they expect, magically, that their new shiny cloud will do that for them. Or their service provider and that's definitely not the case. >> Justin: Yeah. >> We're still pretty early in the show. But any of the announcements so far, anything jump out at you? Or anything that you've seen yet that you want to highlight? >> I'm excited about the VM in AWS thing. I think it's good to finally see that. The annoucement last year at VMworld US, now it's generally available. Limited but generally available. >> Yeah, it was actually announced like a month after the show last year. One of the things we were a little frustrated that there was a three letter name big company that they made an announcement with which was up on stage talking about security today but not so much their cloud offerings. >> Not so much about that stuff. Yeah, so it's been a weird, I'm not going to say it's a pivot but it's certainly a bit of a twist. >> So, you're also a VMUG leader. What are the pain points that you're hearing from people in the community? What do they look for out of the ecosystem that would make their jobs a whole lot easier? >> I think people are sometimes struggling with the complexity of the ecosystem. It's still fairly broad and diverse. And sometimes people struggle to actually navigate their way through what they need to get done. I think that's what a lot of our VMUG members are struggling with day to day. >> I guess I don't see the vendors in the ecosystem solving that problem. It tends to be the distribution, consultants and the like that will help explain that. Because the problem we have, even if I just take storage or networking, these are really complicated things. And there's not going to be one solution that fits 90% of it. So, that's why I need to understand, you said a customer with 2,000 applications, how do I manage that stack of applications? How do I deal with that? You're a consultant. How do you help people through some of these challenges? >> So, I generally try to start with what's important to people. Like what's really making the business tick? What hurt them the most when it goes down? What costs them money? And some people have a really hard time understanding how much money their burning every time an application falls over. And then we just try to make some links between the infrastructure, the application that keeps that outcome running for them. >> Yeah, one of the things I've been poking at is there's too many things that IT is doing that they suck at. And I'm not trying to poke at them. It's what we call the undifferentiated heavy lifting. Come on, I think we talk to anybody, you're no good at building a data center. Please don't do another one. >> Dan: That's right. >> Somebody else can do it. Now, I'm not saying it all goes to public cloud. Lots of options how you do that. But from the ground up and as we work our way, what drives the business? What creates value for the business? And finding those areas. Roles of the CIO is changing greatly, role of IT. >> Yeah. >> Things are going to look very different in five years than it does today. >> Oh, absolutely. Yeah, yeah. And I think people don't necessarily appreciate the value of consultants who can help them on their journey. Because it's hard. IT is hard. Enterprise is hard. And putting IT and Enterprise in the same sentence that really makes it very hard. >> Justin: Yeah, very hard. >> You got to be careful. I saw there was one of those sarcastic memes years ago. It was like, "Consultants, if you can't solve the problem at least there's lots of money to be made moving it along." >> Yeah, yeah. And redefining the problem is another fun one. >> Justin: That's always fun. >> Yeah. >> So, Dan people want to learn more about what you're doing. How do they find you? >> So, they can find me at penguinpunk.net. I've got a blog there. It's been running there for about 10 years now. You can find me on the Twitters @penguinpunk. And various other things. Come to a VMUG meeting in Brisbane if you're ever in the area. We'll buy you a beer and treat you nice. >> Stu: Excellent. Love to do that. We have yet to do theCUBE in Australia but it's definitely what we want to do. So, Dan, thank you so much for joining us. >> Thanks, Stu. For Justin and Stu, we'll be back with lots more coverage here from VMworld 2017. You're watching theCUBE. (upbeat techno music)

>> Narrator: Live from Munich, Germany it's the CUBE, covering Dataworks Summit Europe 2017. Brought to you by Hortonworks. >> Okay, welcome back everyone here at day two coverage of the CUBE here in Munich, Germany for Dataworks 2017. I'm John Furrier, my co-host Dave Vellante. Two days of wall to wall coverage SiliconANGLE Media's the CUBE. Our next guest is Raj Verma, the president and COO of Hortonworks. First time on the CUBE, new to Hortonworks. Welcome to the CUBE. >> Thank you very much, John, appreciate it. >> Looking good with a three piece suit we were commenting when you were on stage. >> Raj: Thank you. >> Great scene here in Europe, again different show vis-a-vis North America, in San Jose. You got the show coming up there, it's the big show. Here, it's a little bit different. A lot of IOT in Germany. You got a lot of car manufacturers, but industrial nation here, smart city initiatives, a lot of big data. >> Uh-huh. >> What's your thoughts? >> Yeah no, firstly thanks for having me here. It's a pleasure and good chit chatting right before the show as well. We are very, very excited about the entire data space. Europe is leading many initiatives about how to use data as a sustainable, competitive differentiator. I just moderated a panel and you guys heard me talk to a retail bank, a retailer. And really, Centrica, which was nothing but British Gas, which is rather an organization steeped in history so as to speak and that institution is now, calls itself a technology company. And, it's a technology company or an IOT company based on them using data as the currency for innovation. So now, British Gas, or Centrica calls itself a data company, when would you have ever thought that? I was at dinner with a very large automotive manufacturers and the kind of stuff they are doing with data right from the driving habits, driver safety, real time insurance premium calculation, the autonomous drive. It's just fascinating no matter what industry you talk about. It's just very, very interesting. And, we are very glad to be here. International business is a big priority for me. >> We've been following Hortonworks since it's inception when it spun out of Yahoo years ago. I think we've been to every Hadoop World going back, except for the first one. We watched the transition. It's interesting, it's always been a learning environment at these shows. And certainly the customer testimonials speaks to the ecosystem, but I have to ask you, you're new to Hortonworks. You have interesting technology background. Why did you join Hortonworks? Because you certainly see the movies before and the cycles of innovation, but now we're living in a pretty epic, machine learning, data AI is on the horizon. What were the reasons why you joined Hortonworks? >> Yeah sure, I've had a really good run in technology, fortunately was associated with two great companies, Parametric Technology and TIBCO Software. I was 16 years at TIBCO, so I've been dealing with data for 16 years. But, over the course of the last couple of years whenever I spoke to a C level executive, or a CIO they were talking to us about the fact that structured data, which is really what we did for 16 years, was not good enough for innovation. Innovation and insights into unstructured data was the seminal challenge of most of the executives that I was talking to, senior level executives. And, when you're talking about unstructured data and making sense of it there isn't a better technology than the one that we are dealing with right now, undoubtedly. So, that was one. Dealing with data because data is really the currency of our times. Every company is a data company. Second was, I've been involved with proprietary software for 23 years. And, if there is a business model that's ready for disruption it's the proprietary software business model because I'm absolutely convinced that open source is what I call a green business model. It's good for planet Earth so as to speak. It's a community based, it's based on innovation and it puts the customer and the technology provider on the same page. The customer success drives the vendor success. Yeah, so the open source community, data-- >> It's sustainables, pun intended, in the sense that it's had a continuing run. And, it's interesting Tier One software is all open source now. >> 100%, and by the way not only that if you see large companies like IBM and Microsoft they have finally woken up to the fact that if they need to attract talent and if they want to be known as talk leaders they have to have some very meaningful open source initiatives. Microsoft loves Linux, when did we ever think that was going to happen, right? And, by the way-- >> I think Steve Bauman once said it was the cancer of the industry. Now, they're behind it. But, this is the Linux foundation has also grown. We saw a project this past week. Intel donated a big project to the Linux now it's taking over, so more projects. >> Raj: Yes. >> There's more action happening than ever before. >> You know absolutely, John. Five years ago when I would go an meet a CIO and I would ask them about open source and they would wink, they say "Of course, "we do open source. But, it's less than 5%, right? Now, when I talk to a CIO they first ask their teams to go evaluated open source as the first choice. And, if they can't they come kicking and screaming towards propriety software. Most organizations, and some organizations with a lot of historical gravity so as to speak have a 50/50 even split between proprietary and open source. And, that's happened in the last three years. And, I can make a bold statement, and I know it'll be true, but in the next three years most organizations the ratio of proprietary to open source would be 20 proprietary 80 open source. >> So, obviously you've made that bet on open source, joining Hortonworks, but open is a spectrum. And, on one end of the spectrum you have Hortonworks which is, as I see it, the purest. Now, even Larry Ellison, when he gets onstage at Oracle Open World will talk about how open Oracle is, I guess that's the other end of the spectrum. So, my question is won't the Microsofts and the Oracles and the IBM, they're like recovering alcoholics and they'll accommodate their platforms through open source, embracing open source. We'll see if AWS is the same, we know it's unidirectional there. How do you see that-- >> Well, not necessarily. >> Industry dynamic, we'll talk about that later. How do you see that industry dynamic shaking out? >> No, absolutely, I think I remember way back in I think the mid to late 90s I still loved that quote by Scott McNeely, who is a friend, Dell, not Dell, Digital came out with a marketing campaign saying open VMS. And, Scott said, "How can someone lie "so much with one word?" (laughs) So, it's the fact that Oracle calling itself open, well I'll just leave it at, it's a good joke. I think the definition of open source, to me, is when you acquire a software you have three real costs. One is the cost of initial procuring that software and the hardware and all the rest of it. The second is implementation and maintenance. However, most people miss the third dimension of cost when acquiring software, which is the cost to exit the technology. Our software and open source has very low exit barriers to our technology. If you don't like our technology, switch it off. You own the software anyways. Switch off our services and the barrier of exits are very, very low. Having worked in proprietary software, as I said, for 23 years I very often had conversations with my customers where I would say, "Look, you really "don't have a choice, because if you want to exit "our technology it's going to probably cost you "ten times more than what you've spent till date." So, it a lock in architecture and then you milk that customer through maintenance, correct? >> Switching costs really are the metric-- >> Raj: Switching costs, exactly. >> You gave the example of Blockbuster Camera, and the rental, the late charge fees. Okay, that's an example of lock in. So, as we look at the company you're most compared with, now that's it's going public, Cloudera, in a way I see more similarities than differences. I mean, you guys are sort of both birds of a feather. But, you are going for what I call the long game with a volume subscription model. And, Cloudera has chosen to build proprietary components on top. So, you have to make big bets on open. You have to support those open technologies. How do you see that affecting the long term distance model? >> Yeah, I think we are committed to open source. There's absolutely no doubt about it. I do feel that we are connected data platform, which is data at rest and data in motion across on prem and cloud is the business model the going to win. We clearly have momentum on our side. You've seen the same filings that I have seen. You're talking about a company that had a three year head start on us, and a billion dollars of funding, all right, at very high valuations. And yet, they're only one year ahead in terms of revenue. And, they have burnt probably three times more cash than we have. So clearly, and it's not my opinion, if you look at the numbers purely, the numbers actually give us the credibility that our business model and what we are doing is more efficient and is working better. One of the arguments that I often hear from analysts and press is how are your margins on open source? According to the filings, again, their margins are 82% on proprietary software, my margins on open source are 84%. So, from a health of the business perspective we are better. Now, the other is they've claimed to have been making a pivot to more machine learning and deep learning and all the rest of it. And, they actually'd like us to believe that their competition is going to be Amazon, IBM, and Google. Now, with a billion dollars of funding with the Intel ecosystem behind them they could effectively compete again Hortonworks. What do you think are their chances of competing against Google, Amazon, and IBM? I just leave that for you guys to decide, to be honest with you. And, we feel very good that they have virtually vacated the space and we've got the momentum. >> On the numbers, what jumps out at you on filing since obviously, I sure, everyone at Hortonworks was digging through the S1 because for the first time now Cloudera exposes some of the numbers. I noticed some striking things different, obviously, besides their multiple on revenue valuation. Pretty obvious it's going to be a haircut coming after the public offering. But, on the sales side, which is your wheelhouse there's a value proposition that you guys at Hortonworks, we've been watching, the cadence of getting new clients, servicing clients. With product evolution is challenging enough, but also expensive. It's not you guys, but it's getting better as Sean Connolly pointed out yesterday, you guys are looking at some profitability targets on the Ee-ba-dep coming up in Q four. Publicly stated on the earnings call. How's that different from Cloudera? Are they burning more cash because of their sales motions or sales costs, or is it the product mix? What's you thoughts on the filings around Cloudera versus the Hortonworks? >> Well, look I just feel that, I can talk more about my business than theirs. Clearly, you've seen the same filings that I have and you've see the same cash burn rates that we have seen. And, we clearly are ore efficient, although we can still get better. But, because of being public for a little more than two years now we've had a thousand watt bulb being shown at us and we have been forced to be more efficient because we were in the limelight. >> John: You're open. >> In the open, right? So, people knew what our figures are, what our efficiency ratios were. So, we've been working diligently at improving them and we've gotten better, and there's still scope for improvement. However, being private did not have the same scrutiny on Cloudera. And, some would say that they were actually spending money like drunken sailors if you really read their S1 filing. So, they will come under a lot of scrutiny as well. I'm sure they'll get more efficient. But right now, clearly, you've seen the same numbers that I have, their numbers don't talk about efficiency either in the R and D side or the sales and marketing side. So, yeah we feel very good about where we are in that space. >> And, open source is this two edged sword. Like, take Yarn for example, at least from my perspective Hortonworks really led the charge to Yarn and then well before Doctor and Kubernetes ascendancy and then all of a sudden that happens and of course you've got to embrace those open source trends. So, you have the unique challenge of having to support sort of all the open source platforms. And, so that's why I call it the long game. In order for you guys to thrive you've got to both put resources into those multiple projects and you've got to get the volume of your subscription model, which you pointed out the marginal economics are just as good as most, if not any software business. So, how do you manage that resource allocation? Yes, so I think a lot of that is the fact that we've got plenty of contributors and committers to the open source community. We are seen as the angel child in open source because we are just pure, kosher open source. We just don't have a single line of proprietary code. So, we are committed to that community. We have over the last six or seven years developed models of our software development which helps us manage the collective bargaining power, so as to speak, of the community to allocate resources and prioritize the allocation of resources. It continues to be a challenge given the breadth of the open source community and what we have to handle, but fortunately I'm blessed that we've got a very, very capable engineering organization that keeps us very efficient and on the cutting edge. >> We're here with Raj Verma, With the new president and COO of Hortonworks, Chief Operating Officer. I've got to ask you because it's interesting. You're coming in with a fresh set of eyes, coming in as you mentioned, from TIBCO, interesting, which was very successful in the generation of it's time and history of TIBCO where it came from and what it did was pretty fantastic. I mean, everyone knows connecting data together was very hard in the enterprise world. TIBCO has some challenges today, as you're seeing, with being disrupted by open source, but I got to ask you. As a perspective, new executive you got, looking at the battlefield, an opportunity with open source there's some significant things happening and what are you excited about because Hortonworks has actually done some interesting things. Some, I would say, the world spun in their direction, their relationship with Microsoft, for instance, and their growth in cloud has been fantastic. I mean, Microsoft stock price when they first started working with Hortonworks I think was like 26, and obviously with Scott Di-na-tell-a on board Azure, more open source, on Open Compute to Kubernetes and Micro Services, Azure doing very, very well. You also have a partnership with Amazon Web Services so you already are living in this cloud era, okay? And so, you have a cloud dynamic going on. Are you excited by that? You bring some partnership expertise in from TIBCO. How do you look at partners? Because, you guys don't really compete with anybody, but you're partners with everybody. So, you're kind of like Switzerland, but you're also doing a lot of partnerships. What are you excited about vis-a-vis the cloud and some of the other partnerships that are happening. >> Yeah, absolutely, I think having a robust partner ecosystem is probably my number one priority, maybe number two after being profitable in a short span of time, which is, again, publicly stated. Now, our partnership with Microsoft is very, very special to us. Being available in Azure we are seeing some fantastic growth rates coming in from Azure. We are also seeing remarkable amount of traction from the market to be able to go and test out our platform with very, very low barriers of entry and, of course, almost zero barriers of exit. So, from a partnership platform cloud providers like Amazon, Microsoft, are very, very important to us. We are also getting a lot of interest from carriers in Europe, for example. Some of the biggest carriers want to offer business services around big data and almost 100%, actually not almost, 100% of the carriers that we have spoken to thus far want to partner with us and offer our platform as a cloud service. So, cloud for us is a big initiative. It gives us the entire capability to reach audiences that we might not be able to reach ringing one door bell at a time. So, it's, as I said, we've got a very robust, integrated cloud strategy. Our customers find that very, very interesting. And, building that with a very robust partner channel, high priority for us. Second, is using our platform as a development platform for application on big data is, again, a priority. And that's, again, building a partner ecosystem. The third is relationships with global SIs, Extensia, Deloitte, KPMG. The Indian SIs of In-flu-ces, and Rip-ro, and HCL and the rest. We have some work to do. We've done some good work there, but there's some work to be done there. And, not only that I think some of the initiatives that we are launching in terms of training as a service, free certification, they are all things which are aimed at reaching out to the partners and building, as I said, a robust partner ecosystem. >> There's a lot of talk a conferences like this about, especially in Hadoop, about complexity, complexity of the ecosystem, new projects, and the difficulties of understanding that. But, in reality it seems as though today anyway the technology's pretty well understood. We talked about Millennials off camera coming out today with social savvy and tooling and understanding gaming and things like that. Technology, getting it to work seems to not be the challenge anymore. It's really understanding how to apply it, how to value data, we heard in your panel today. The business process, which used to be very well known, it's counting, it's payroll, simple. Now, it's kind of ever changing daily. What do you make of that? How do you think that will effect the future of work? Yeah, I think there's some very interesting questions that you've asked in that the first, of course, is what does it take to have a very successful big data, or Hadoop project. And, I think we always talk about the fact that if you have a very robust business case backing a Hadoop project that is the number one key ingredient to delivering a Hadoop project. Otherwise, you can tend to boil the ocean, all right, or try and eat an elephant in one bite as I like to say. So, that's one and I think you're right. It's not the technology, it's not the complexity, it's not the availability of the resources. It is a leadership issue in organizations where the leader demands certain outcomes, business outcomes from the Hadoop project team and we've seen whenever that happens the projects seem to be very, very successful. Now, the second part of the question about future of work, which is a very, very interesting topic and a topic which is very, very close to my heart. There are going to be more people than jobs in the next 20, 25 years. I think that any job that can be automated will be automated, or has been automated, right? So, this is going to have a societal impact on how we live. I've been lucky enough that I joined this industry 25 years ago and I've never had to change or switch industries. But, I can assure you that our kids, and we were talking about kids off camera as well, our kids will have to probably learn a new skill every five years. So, how does that impact education? We, in our generation, were testing champions. We were educated to score well on tests. But, the new form of education, which you and I were talking about, again in California where we live, and where my daughter goes to high school and in her school the number one, the number one priority is to instill a sense of learning and joy of learning in students because that is what is going to contribute to a robust future. >> That's a good point, I want to just interject here because I think that the trend we're seeing in the higher Ed side too also point to the impact of data science, to curriculum and learning. It's not just putting catalogs online. There's now kind of an iterative kind of non-linear discovery to proficiency. But, there's also the emotional quotient aspect. You mentioned the love of learning. The immersion of tech and digital is creating an interdisciplinary requirement. So, all the folks say that, what the statistic's like half the jobs that are going to be available haven't even been figured out yet. There's a value creation around interdisciplinary skill sets and emotional quotient. >> Absolutely. >> Social, emotional because of the human social community connectedness. This is also a big data challenge opportunity. >> Oh, 100% and I think one of the things that we believe is in the future, jobs that require a greater amount of empathy are least susceptible to automation. So, things like caring for old age people in the world, and nursing, and teaching, and artists, and all the rest will be professions which will be highly paid and numerous. I also believe that the entire big data challenge about how you use data to impact communities is going to come into play. And also, I think John, you and I were again talking about it, the entire concept of corporations is only 200 years old, really, 200, 300 years old. Before that, our forefathers were individual contributors who contributed a certain part in a community, barbers, tailors, farmers, what have you. We are going to go back to the future where all of us will go back to being individual contributors. And, I think, and again I'm bringing it back to open source, open source is the start of that community which will allow the community to go back to its roots of being individual contributors rather than being part of a organization or a corporation to be successful and to contribute. >> Yeah, the Coase's Penguin has been a very famous seminal piece of work. Obviously, Ronald Coase who's wrote the book The Nature of the Firm is interesting, but that's been a kind of historical document. You look at blockchain for instance. Blockchain actually has the opportunity to disrupt what the Nature of the Firm is about because of smart contracts, supply chain, and what not. And, we have this debate on the CUBE all the time, there's some naysayers, Tim Conner's a VC and I were talking on our Friday show, Silicon Valley Friday show. He's actually a naysayer on blockchain. I'm actually pro blockchain because I think there's some skeptics that say blockchain is really hard to because it requires an ecosystem. However, we're living in an ecosystem, a world of community. So, I think The Nature of the Firm will be disrupted by people organizing in a new way vis-a-vis blockchain 'cause that's an open source paradigm. >> Yeah, no I concur. So, I'm a believer in that entire concept. I 100%-- >> I want to come back to something you talked about, about individual contributors and the relationship in link to open source and collaboration. I personally, I think we have to have a frank conversation about, I mean machines have always replaced humans, but for the first time in our history it's replacing cognitive functions. To your point about empathy, what are the things that humans can do that machines can't? And, they become fewer and fewer every year. And, a lot of these conferences people don't like to talk about that, but it's a reality that we have to talk about. And, your point is right on, we're going back to individual contribution, open source collaboration. The other point is data, is it going to be at the center of that innovation because it seems like value creation and maybe job creation, in the future, is going to be a result of the combinatorial effects of data, open source, collaboration, other. It's not going to because of Moore's Law, all right. >> 100%, and I think one of the aspects that we didn't touch upon is the new societal model that automation is going to create would need data driven governance. So, a data driven government is going to be a necessity because, remember, in those times, and I think in 25, 30 years countries will have to explore the impact of negative taxation, right? Because of all the automation that actually happens around citizen security, about citizen welfare, about cost of healthcare, cost of providing healthcare. All of that is going to be fueled by data, right? So, it's just, as the Chinese proverb says, "May you live in interesting times." We definitely are living in very interesting times. >> And, the public policy implications are, your friend and one of my business heroes, Scott McNeally says, "There's no privacy in "the internet, get over it." We interviewed John Tapscott last week he said "That's unacceptable, "we have to solve that problem." So, it brings up a lot of public policy issues. >> Well, the social economic impact, right now there's a trend we're seeing where the younger generation, we're talking about the post 9/11 generation that's entering the workforce, they have a social conscience, right? So, there's an emphasis you're seeing on social good. AI for social good is one of the hottest trends out there. But, the changing landscape around data is interesting. So, the word democratization has been used whether you're looking at the early days of blogging and podcasting which we were involved in and research to now in media this notion of data and transparency and open source is probably at a tipping point, an all time high in terms of value creation. So, I want to hear your thoughts on this because as someone who's been in the proprietary world the mode of operation was get something proprietary, lock it dowm, build a fence and a wall, protect it with folks with machine guns and fight for the competitive advantage, right? Now, the competitive advantage is open. Okay, so you're looking at pure open source model with Hortonworks. It changes how companies are competing. What is the competitive advantage of Hortonworks? Actually, to be more open. >> 100%. >> How do you manage that? >> No absolutely, I just think the proprietary nature of software, like software has disrupted a lot of businesses, all right? And, it's not a resistance to disruption itself. I mean, there has never been a business model in the history of time where you charge a lot of money to build a software, or sell a software that you built and then whatever are the defects in that software you get paid more money to fix them, all right? That's the entire perpetual and maintenance model. That model is going to get disrupted. Now, there are hundreds of billions of dollars involved in it so people are going to come kicking and screaming to the open source world, but they will have to come to the open source world. Our advantage that we're seeing is innovation now in a closed loop environment, no matter what size of a company you are, cannot keep up with the changing landscape around you from a data perspective. So, without the collective innovation of the community I don't really think a technology can stay at par with the changes around them. >> This is what I say about, this is what I think is such an important point that you're getting at because we were started SiliconANGLE actually in the Cloudera office, so we have a lot of friends that work there. We have a great admiration for them, but one of the things that Cloudera has done through their execution is they have been very profit oriented, go public at all costs kind of thing that they're doing now. You've seen that happen. Is the competitive advantage that you're pointing out is something we're seeing that similar that Andy Jasseys doing at AWS, which is it's not so much to build something proprietary per se, it's just to ship something faster. So, if you look at Amazon's competitive advantage is that they just continue to ship product faster and faster and faster than companies can build themselves. And also, the scale that they're getting with these economies is increasing the quality. So, open source has also hit the naysayers on security, right? Everyone said, "Oh, open source is not secure." As it turns out, it's more secure. Amazon at scale is actually becoming more secure. So, you're starting to see the new competitive advantage be ship more, be more open as the way to do business. What do you think the impact will be to traditional companies whether it's a startup competing or an existing bank? This is a paradigm shift, what's the impact going to be for a CIO or CEO of a big company? How do they incorporate that competitive advantage? Yeah, I think the proprietary software world is not going to go away tomorrow, John, you know that. There so much of installed software and there's a saying from where I come from that "Even a dead elephant is worth a million dollars," right? So, even that business model even though it is sort of dying it'll still be a good investment for the next ten years because of the locked in business model where customers cannot get out. Now, from a perspective of openness and what that brings as a competitive differentiators to our customer just the very base at which, as I've said I've lived in a proprietary world, you would be lucky if you were getting the next version of our software every 18 months, you'd be lucky. In the open source community you get a few versions in 18 months. So, the cadence at which releases come out have just completely disrupted the proprietary model. It is just the collective, as I said, innovative or innovation ability of the community has allowed us to release, to increase the release cadence to a few months now, all right? And, if our engineering team had it's way it'll further be cut short, right? So, the ability of customers, and what does that allow the customer to do? Ten years ago if you looked for a capability from your proprietary vendor they would say you have to wait 18 months. So, what do you do, you build it yourself, all right? So, that is what the spaghetti architecture was all about. In the new open source model you ask the community and if enough people in the community think that that's important the community builds it for you and gives it to you. >> And, the good news is the business model of open source is working. So, you got you guys have been public, you got Cloudera going public, you have MuleSoft out there, a lot of companies out there now that are public companies are open source companies, a phenomenal change over. But, the other thing that's interesting is that the hiring factor for the large enterprise to the point of, your point about so proprietary not updating, it's the same is true for the enterprise. So, just hiring candidates out of open source is now increased, the talent pool for a large enterprise. >> 100%, 100%. >> Well, I wonder if I could challenge this love fest for a minute. (laughs) So, there's another saying, I didn't grow up there, but a dying snake can still bite you. So, I bring that up because there is this hybrid model that's emerging because these elephants eventually they figure it out. And so, an example would be, we talked about Cloudera and so forth, but the better example, I think, is IBM. What IBM has done to embrace open source with investing years ago a billion dollars into Linux, what it's doing with Spark, essentially trying to elbow its way in and say, "Okay, "now we're going to co-opt the ecosystem. "And then, build our proprietary pieces on top of it." That, to me, that's a viable business model, is it not? >> Yes, I'm sure it is and to John's point with the Mule going IPO and with Cloudera having successfully built a $250 million, $261 million business is testimony, yeah, it's a testimony to the fact that companies can be built. Now, can they be more efficient, sure they can be more efficient. However, my entire comment on this is why are you doing open source? What is your intent of doing open source, to be seen as open, or to be truly open? Because, in our philosophy if you a add a slim layer of proprietariness, why are you doing that? And, as a businessman I'll tell you why you increase the stickiness factor by locking in your customer, right? So, let's not, again, we're having a frank conversation, proprietary code equals customer lock in, period. >> Agreed. And, as a business model-- >> I'm not sure I agree with that. >> As a business model. >> Please. (laughs) We'll come back to that. >> So, it's a customer lock in. Now, as a business model it is, if you were to go with the business models of the past, yes I believe most of the analysts will say it a stickier, better business model, but then we would like to prove them wrong. And, that's our mission as open source purely. >> I would caution though, Amazon's the mother of all lock in's. You kind of bristled at that before. >> They're not, I mean they use a lot of open source. I mean, did they open source it? Getting back to the lock in, the lock in is a function of stickiness, right? So, stickiness can be open source. Now, you could argue that Horonworks through they're relationship with partnering is a lock in spec with their stickiness of being open. Right, so I come back down to the proprietary-- >> Dave: My search engine I like Google. >> I mean Google's certainly got-- >> It's got to be locked in 'cause I like it? >> Well, there's a lot of do you care with proprietary technology that Google's built. >> Switching costs, as we talked about before. >> But, you're not paying for Si-tch >> If the value exceeds the price of the lock in then it's an opportunity. So, Palma Richie's talking about the hardened top, the hardened top. Do you care what's in an Intel processor? Well, Intel is a proprietary platform that provides processing power, but it enables a lot of other value. So, I think the stickiness factor of say IBM is interesting and they've done a lot open source stuff to defend them on Linux, for example they do a (mumbles) blockchain. But, they're priming the pump for their own business, that's clear for their lock In. >> Raj wasn't saying there's not value there. He's saying it's lock in, and it is. >> Well, some customers will pay for convenience. >> Your point is if the value exceeds the lock in risk than it's worth it. >> Yeah, that's my point, yeah. >> 1005, 100%. >> And, that's where the opportunity is. So, you can use open source to get to a value projectory. That's the barriers to entry, we seen 'em on the entrepreneurship side, right? It's easier to start a company now than ever before. Why? Because of open source and cloud, right? So, does that mean that every startup's going to be super successful and beat IBM? No, not really. >> Do you thinK there will be a red hat of big data and will you be it? >> We hope so. (laughs) If I had my that's definitely. That's really why I am here. >> Just an example, right? >> And, the one thing that excites us about this this year is as my former boss used to say you could be as good as you think you are or the best in the world but if you're in the landline business right now you're not going to have a very bright future. However, the business that we are in we pull from the market that we get, and you're seeing here, right? And, these are days that we have very often where customer pool is remarkable. I mean, this industry is growing at, depending on which analyst you're talking to somewhere between 50 to 80% ear on ear. All right, every customer is a prospect for us. There isn't a single conversation that we have with any organization almost of any size where they don't think that they can use their data better, or they can enhance and improve their data strategy. So, if that is in place and I am confident about our execution, very, very happy with the technology platform, the support that we get from out customers. So, all things seem to be lining up. >> Raj, thanks so much for coming on, we appreciate your time. We went a little bit over, I think, the allotted time, but wanted to get your insight as the new President and Chief Operating Officer for Hortonworks. Congratulations on the new role, and looking forward to seeing the results. Since you're a public company we'll be actually able to see the scoreboard. >> Raj: Yes. >> Congratulations, and thanks for coming on the CUBE. There's more coverage here live at Dataworks 2017. I John Furrier, stay with us more great interviews, day two coverage. We'll be right back. (jaunty music)