(relaxing music) >> Hello, everyone. Welcome to theCUBE's coverage of International Women's Day. I'm John Furrier, your host. We got a great lineup of of guests this program and this segment, we got talking about hot company called, MessageBird. We got three amazing executives and leaders. Rachel Thornton, who's the chief marketing officer, and Andrea Euenheim, Chief People Officer, and Asha Thurthi, Chief Product Officer, We've got the CMO, Chief People Officer, and the Chief Product Officer. We've got everyone who's building that company. This is about building a startup culture that empowers women in tech. Ladies, thanks for coming on and thanks for taking the time. >> Thank you, John, for having us. >> Rachel, you know, you've seen big organizations, you're the CMO at AWS, now at MessageBird. This is a world where now there's new standards, you've got global culture, you can start off anywhere. A lot of things involved in being a C-suite leader, from not only marketing product to customers, but building a product, hiring the right team, team dynamics, power dynamics. So as female leaders, you guys are building that culture that empowers women to not only find their voices, but to use their voices to lead. What's the secret? What are you guys doing? Give us a taste of what's it like right now. Give us a feeling for what's going on in this world for you guys right now. >> I'll go first. I actually want to say that I was the, when MessageBird was building out their team, I was super excited to join because I was so impressed with the fact that the product officer was a woman, the HR officer was a woman. It was so great to see women in those leadership roles and I was just really positive and bullish on that. I felt like any company that was really building out that leadership team and thinking about being conscious of how do we have diverse perspectives and doing that is only going to make the product better. So I was super excited to join and I have really, really enjoyed being on a leadership team where I think we're 50% women. I think that is true. Like it's half women, which is really amazing. >> And that's to be the standard because I mean, software is in every product. Digital transformation is everyone and the world is not 17% women. I mean, let's just face it. So this is really a product issue as well and team issue because I mean, it just makes sense. I mean, this is really still, the industry's behind, this is a big problem. >> But I do think that, like I said, watching what's happening here, it gives me hope. Actually, it makes me inspired for to see other companies adopt it. I think, you know, both Asha and Andrea and you guys chime in, have just, you know, they're doing great jobs as leaders. I feel like we're all sort of, you know, able to speak, able to share our voice and able to inspire the folks in the company when they see that. >> Asha, talk, wait, Asha, could you weigh in on this because people matter in companies and now you have work at home, remote, you're seeing very successful configurations of teams, technical to business across the board, building products and working as a team. What's your take on this and what's your perspective? >> No, no, great question. The time is now. I really feel like the time has come for women to take what's really due for them and not just because we're women, because we are equally strong and contributing on the table. So I'm super excited for the generation that's to come because great voices really represent great customers because customers come in all different shapes and forms and people who are building the products, plus running companies should represent the customers, that end of the day, buy your products. So voice on the table is extremely important and so is making an attempt to make sure that you are hiring across all walks of life, all the way from sea level to even at IC level, ensuring that there is inclusion and diversity from a representation perspective. >> You've got the keys to the kingdom there as the product officer, Chief Product Officer, you know, you got to interface with engineering, you got to interface with the customers and like I mentioned earlier, the products are used by everyone now. This is all the, what's your experience been? What have you learned? Because again, a lot of engineers are male dominated and around the world, teams are male. What's your experience? How do you blend that together? How do you bring that harmony and so, and productivity? >> Yeah. >> Yeah. No, like I think the first thing is I think acknowledging the current state, which is women in tech, specifically because you asked about my role, continues to be a challenge. Women in tech be it in the product side of the equation or design side of the equation or engineering side of the equation, I think continues to be a challenge. I think all companies will have to lean in, especially starting education from STEM degrees, going forward to see how do you kind of make an effort to ensure that women in technology is not as high of a barrier that it used to be. Women in color in technology is not as high of a barrier as well. And how do you kind of make sure that when you are hiring, when you are advocating for your company, when you're setting up your interview loops, to actually setting up the right platform for all of these employees to thrive. You are ensuring that every walk of this, is kind of including women and making sure that all voice are voices are represented. Andrea, Rachel, I'd love your take as well because products just one piece of this whole equation where you build product. I'm kind of curious to see how you-- >> Andrea, weigh in, because this is like a hiring thing too. Like if you have a special test, like, okay, do we have the right makeup this person's going to, is there a bro test for example? I've heard companies have that where they have this kind of special questions that identify bros 'cause they don't want that in their culture. Is there a playbook? Is there a best practice in sourcing and identifying and interviewing loops? For instance, we just heard, Asha, that was great on the product side, Andrea, this is a big challenge. Putting teams together, having the right cohesive harmony, talent, looking for people, having the right interview loops, identifying that bro or the right makeup that you want to bring in or interview out. What's the strategy? How do you put these teams together because this is the real secret sauce. >> Not sure whether it's a secret sauce, but I think what we have shown that message for, is that we have made a very conscious effort and decision to start leading by example from the top to really build a leadership team that is already combining all the great traits on top of a good diversity in the team. Not only from a gender but also a skills and personality point of view. And then, from there, really making a planful intentional way down to say where do we hire which talent? What is it that we're still missing as a piece of the puzzle to really make the right decisions on leadership but also team compositions to really look at what's the customer needs, how can we build great products, how can we also compose great engineering teams to meet those expectations that our customers have and how do we build for the future? And that needs to happen in all different parts of the organization to really see that we can make a great effort across the board. >> And, you know, Rachel, last year, your talk inspired a lot of folks in conversation around sponsorship and you talk about networking and mentoring, but you highlighted sponsorship, I remember that clearly and that got great play in the conversation. So it's not just mentoring for mentoring's sake, there's also sponsorships. So there's really identifying, hiring, and then working with. And according to McKenzie's report that you guys are highlighting at me, MessageBird one in four C-suite leaders are identified as women and and with more hurdles to climb every day, especially at a startup. >> And I think that's why it has to be a combination of how do you think about your team composition? How do you think about your leadership composition? So all the things that Andrea just said, but then how do you make sure, as you're bringing folks in, you're constructing the right loop so people feel like this is a great place they want to be a part of, that it represents a diverse group of people. And then once they're in, how do you mentor people? What's the mentorship program you put in place? But the sponsorship program, I think like, sponsorship as well as mentorship also matters because you want to make sure when you identify folks in the organization, that you feel are ready for the next step, that you have identified as high potential, how do you come together as a leadership team and have a program that sponsors them, that gets them training or maybe it's executive coaching but also just makes them visible to leaders across the organization. So when it's time to put together the case for that promotion or maybe that new project or that that new group they would lead, everyone is aware of them and everyone has had some sort of interaction with them. So it really is building the right sort of sponsorship framework to help people get the kind of visibility and the kind of support they need to then unlock their potential in other areas. Whether, again, that's promotion or just taking on new groups or taking on new projects. >> Awesome. Well, you guys are fabulous. >> And in addition to this. >> Oh, go ahead, go ahead. >> No, in addition to this, I think it's also what is critical. Even though we're not the biggest company without Amazon and not Microsoft, but I think it's still important to also give exposure to the great people that we have, to make sure that everybody has visibility, everybody has a voice, and to make sure that we can then build sponsorship and mentorship across the different levels and teams and to build a great succession pipeline to really make sure that people can be considered for the next big project that is coming independent of any skill that they might have. But being a voice and having the experience that counts as most important. >> I love that inclusion, you jumped ahead. I wanted to get some questions 'cause you guys are a great group here. I guess the first question I had on the list here, is for you guys, what does it take to build an environment of inclusion? Because that's really key where female identified employees aren't just asked to questions, they take risks, they ask the right questions, they get involved, they're heard, they're recognized. What's it take to build that kind of environment? >> I can go, I think two things come to mind. One, I would say is commitment. Like commitment at the top. That you're not just going to lip sync, but you're going to walk the talk, that this is important to you as a company and who you stand or what you stand for as a human being. And you are going to put in the effort as a leadership team at the top to actually set the right example. Like MessageBird, I think Rachel said in her intro, 50% of the C level is women and you start right there. The second thing I would say is giving our people voice, you know, giving them confidence. Women because of, I don't know, thousands of years of social conditioning as such, hesitate to kind of speak up. So setting the right example, giving them the voice and encouraging them to take the challenges even if they're sponsored or not, to kind of make sure that they're willing to try new things and be not afraid of risk as much, I think is also super important. >> I think that's very, it is so, so true about the voice and about encouragement and just, I think all, you know, making sure people feel like across, you know, the entire organization, that they feel like they have a voice, their voice can be heard. And that we as a leadership team are supportive in those environments and people feel like I can take risks, I can't ask questions, I can push the envelope in terms of, "Hey, do you know, do we agree with this point? Is there room for discussion?" I think when people see that that's encouraged and it's encouraged for everyone, that's powerful. >> The McKinsey study had a lot of data in there. What's the summary on that on the people side? Obviously, the women are underrepresented, one in four, the C-suite leaders are women, but there's also people who are climbing through the ranks. I mean, what's the big takeaway from the McKinsey study beyond the obvious one in four stat? Is there any other messages in there that people should pay attention to? >> I think Asha said it really well with building the pipeline at the top. And I think that's something that we all think about every day. I think Andrea and her team do such a great job in helping us with that, but that is huge. Like, you're going to, you have to really think how can you build that pipeline out? And I think encouraging people, women, underrepresented groups, everyone to just think what do I want to do? What are the companies out there that I think would be great to work for? How can I find the right environment to support me? I think that's important and I think that helps build that pipeline. >> Okay. When you're a startup, you're a lot different than the big company, right? So the big companies are different. You guys are growing, startups are a lot about, you know, don't run a cash, hard charging, creative, teamwork. But it could be tough under fire. The startup, what's the learnings? How do you guys look at that and how do you guys manage that? Because it's super impart of the culture, of where the phase of these startups are in. >> I think the advantage that we have is we're not a big company. So I think in that way, there is a way to really build a culture of empowerment and us making decisions together and independent of where you come from, what experience you have, it's really what you can bring to the table. It's not having the fear of political cohesion. >> Yeah. >> That you have in larger corporations at times. To really build that great team that we are building right now. To say, all that matters to us is to build great products for our customers. And there's a lot of discussion about quota and one in four and I know large corporations are a lot more tied to meeting requirements that are depending on national laws and whatever, which is sometimes required to force a change in culture and how to do business. But I think us as a company, we just see a strong, strong benefit in not worrying about the gender. It's really like making an effort at the beginning to build the culture and the company that is just looking for a great team and a great culture independent of quotas. >> Actually, on the product side, Asha, on the product side. I want to get your thoughts because I know from startups, you know, being done a few myself, product market fit is huge, right? So you got, that's the goal and there's a lot of pressure. Rachel, you got to go to put the go to market together and you got to build the product. If you don't hit it, you got to br agile, you got to be fast, which could cause a lot of friction. You know, it's 'cause people got to reset, regroup. It's not for the faint of heart. How do you, pipeline folks, women are great for that. Are people aware? Do you have to, are people ready for it? Is there a training? How do you get someone ready or is there a test if they're startup ready? >> No, no, it's a great question. So like, we have a value at the company that's called move 200 miles an hour. All startups, I think, will totally resonate with this. As Andrea was saying, it's a balancing act. >> John: Yeah. >> How do you ensure that you're moving 200 miles an hour, but at the same time ensuring that you're hiring the right people who ultimately represent the customer. One example, Rachel and I were talking about this earlier, we actually represent 40% of the B2C emails that send globally. Imagine as the audience who's receiving one of these emails, think your favorites, you know, brand in Nordstrom that's actually sending you an email on the other end. Think about the customer on the other end. So it does require company commitment to ensure that the people you hire, represent ultimately the customer you're going after. So even if you're a startup, that's moving 200 miles an hour with lesser resources than any other bigger company, you have to commit to actually ensuring that your team has the right diversity. Starting all the way from sourcing to ensuring that this person is thriving and getting hopefully promoted to one day replace all of us. Let's put it that way. >> Rachel, weigh in on the startup velocity, challenges, dynamism, thoughts. >> You go, Andrea. >> It's not for everyone, you know, in that way, but it's something that if you find the right environment and the right people who thrive in such an environment like we do, it's magic. And building on that magic that we have is so powerful that we cannot afford giving voice to one group that is stronger than the others. We're counting on each other and this is a key element to who we are and how we want to build going forward. >> Rachel, your reaction, you're in a startup scene, whitewater rafting, heavy. Speed. >> It is very different. It's very different. But I love it. And what Andrea said is totally true. I think it isn't for everyone, but when you find a great organization and when you find a great group of people, it is magic. You know, it just, it's amazing the things you can do and it is a palpable feeling in the company when everyone is, you know, working on the same thing and excited about the same thing. >> You know, it's interesting about startups, not to take a tangent here, but a lot of startups just, it's not as much resource as a big company that that department doesn't exist. A lot of people doing multiple things. Wait a minute, someone doesn't write my emails for me, doesn't do the PowerPoints. Where's the marketing department? Where's the big budgets? There's a lot of juggling and a lot of versatility required, but also, there's opportunities to identify talent that could be hired for something that could move into something else. And this is part of the growth. And that's one side. On the other side, and this is a question, I promise, there's burnout, right? So you have burnout and fatigue, whether it's cultural and, or, I don't see an opportunity to really, truly a lot of aperture for new opportunities. So can you guys share your thoughts on this dynamic? Because in startups, there's a double-edged sword that could be burnout or there could be opportunity. >> I'll go and then I'll have Asha on the product side. I think that's true everywhere. I don't know, it could be that in some startups, it's exasperated, but I think that actually is true whether you're in a big company or a small company. I think, you know, depending on the industry, depending on the company size, depending on what you're going after, you know, you have to be clear about what it is you're going to deliver, how you're going to do it. And I do think it's important that everyone be able to say for themselves, "Hey, I'm excited about this product or I'm excited about this company and here's what I'm going to do," but I'm also going to make sure that I'm not putting myself in such a way that it does, you know, burnout does happen, but I don't think it can confine it to startups. I think it can happen anywhere. >> Okay. Yeah, exactly. We've seen that now. >> Yeah, I couldn't agree more. John, you've three moms on the call and definitely, we've all kind of come out of Covid into this space. I'm not going to lie, it's really hard. >> Yeah. >> It's really hard, actually balancing and juggling multiple different priorities that you have to. Especially in a startup world, when you move so many different miles an hour and you don't have enough support around you, it is really hard. The one advice I do have for women, which I kind of tell myself very repeatedly, is it's completely okay to be honest, I have taken an intentional action to be a lot more vulnerable over the years. Talk about, you know, having to pick up my child or, you know, having to spend the evening out when I need to spend time with my family. And being open about it because when I do it at the top, I can accept the space for enough people to talk about it a as well. So really, helping women set their own boundaries without feeling guilty about it. Because by nature, we end up, you know, taking care of everything around us. So how do you take care of yourself, fill your cup first so you don't burnout, to your question, I think is extremely critical. >> Yeah. Yeah, that's a really great point. Good point. I think about honesty and transparency comes in with boundaries, but also empathy. I think a lot of people, there's a lot of awareness now to this factor of teamwork and remote and creativity. Productivity is kind of a new, not new thing, but it's kind of more forefront and that's super important. How do you guys promote that? Because you still got to move fast, you got to schedule things differently. I mean, I find myself much more schedule oriented and it's hard to coordinate. How do you guys balance that because it's a management challenge, an opportunity at the same time to have that inclusivity vibe. >> I think on the empathy part on balancing, I just think you have to focus on it. It has to be a conscious choice. And I think, you know, sometimes we do it great and I only speak for myself. Sometimes I do it great, sometimes I don't. But I definitely think you have to focus on it. Think about it, think about where are you, you know, where are you scheduling things, what are you doing? How are you making sure you're thinking about your team, thinking about the, you know, the example you're providing or the example you're setting. >> Thoughts on the boundaries and when does something not a boundary, when it's not productive. 'Cause, you know, so I got my boundaries and they're like, "Wait, whoa, whoa, stay in your lane." No one likes to hear that. Stay in your lane thing. I mean, not to say that that people shouldn't stay in their lane. I just find that a little bit off-putting like, you know, stay in your lane. That sounds like a, it's against the culture. What do you guys think about how people should be thinking about their norms in these environments whether it's inclusivity and diversity? What are some of the areas to stay away from and what are the areas to promote in terms of how they'll communicate these boundaries and, or, good lanes, I should say. I mean, maybe I shouldn't say, stay in your lane's a bad thing, but, so it could be more off-putting. >> I can touch on something which is what can you do more of? I really resonated so much with Rachel's comment from last year on sponsorship. I am the product of sponsorship so it really resonates with me. Also, wouldn't even be sitting here with these two wonderful women and you. In addition to that, I think allyship, I think that's extremely important. What I would love to, you know, see everybody set the right example on is promoting a lot more of allyship where you kind of encourage, not just women, underrepresented minority, knowing really well the backgrounds that they come from and the, you know, situational context around it and seeing how can you be a great ally. And what great ally looks like for me is simple things. If you're in a meeting full of people and you see the underrepresented folks not talking or sharing their voice, how can you, as the senior person in the room, and you know, any person in the room, actually share the voice out and get their thoughts. If you can have many different people present in your company, all hands or what have you, what other forums that can be, how do you ensure that it's not just you always, but like you're putting in the spotlight on other people and, you know, when calibrations come in, when recruiting comes in, how do you ensure that your loops are diverse? So long story short, how do you ensure that you are setting the right example even if you don't belong to one of these groups, that I think do more of. >> Well, that's a great call out on the allies on mentorship programs and support networks. These are important. How should someone go forward and build a mentorship program and support networks so people can help each other out? Is there a way you guys have found best practices, Rachel and team? Is there a strategy that works well? >> Actually, Asha has some great examples here, so I'm going to toss it over to her. >> Thank you, Andy. Team, like this is what I would love for everyone to do more of. Like, we just kicked off 2023, why not make it a goal for this year? Let's seize the year to ensure that, you know, I'll start off with tech, especially where women are underrepresented. We ensure that all of your rock stars, all of your women, at least have a mentor, either within the organization or you reach out to your network externally and pair this person up with a mentor. What ultimately helps us, people having somebody they can bounce off their ideas off, get tips, get advice on how to tackle a particular situation. So really, pairing people up to ensure that they have a way to kind of bounce off ideas and see how can they elevate themselves, I think will go a long way. >> I mean, this is a big problem. Rachel, you've been a leader, you've seen this happen before. How do people climb through the ranks successfully? And you've seen people, maybe, fail a little bit. Is there a best practice or advice you could share with folks that are out there watching and listening on, you know, how to be savvy on climbing through the ranks, whether it's finding mentors being the right place at the right time. I always have the old saying, you know, "Hang around the basketball rim and you'll get a rebound." So is it timing, is it placement? What's your best practice advice for coming through the rim? >> I have a little, and then again, I think I've been very impressed with the team Asha built and just the things that she's done in her career. And I think that for women in tech, that's crucial. I would just say overall, finding your voice, using your voice, but also thinking about who's around you, who's supportive, who are the mentors or who are the people you would love to either mentor or have mentored you. And be sure to speak up and and make that known. And then I also think, don't be afraid to, like I said, use your voice, ask questions. Don't be afraid to also help people up. I think, Asha, what you said a few minutes ago is so true. Like, if there are folks in the room that aren't, you know, as vocal, that you know have amazing ideas, be sure that you're there to help them up, to help them with their voice 'cause you want to make sure that it just brings more to the conversation. >> Asha, you're running a product group, that's a big challenge. What's your thoughts on that? Can you share your opinion? >> Yeah, imposter syndrome is a real thing. I would definitely say confidence is self-taught is what I have really learned over the years and really kind of knowing that the next person to you may not be any smarter than you or may not be any less smart than you. So really, treating everybody as an equal around you and finding that inner strength and inner voice to be able to speak for yourself and to be able to share your ideas and do the best that you possibly can. Bring the A game and when you need help, asking for it. So really, just knowing that and taking initiative and we're here to help. >> Awesome. Andrea, you're here. I want to get your thoughts on building out a mentoring program and networks for women so they can have this great environment. What's it take to do that? I mean, it's hard to do. Building out meaningful networking mentorship program and sport network for women to help each other's hard. What's your experience? >> I think you need some strong leaders within an organization who are willing to sponsor and support. You need somebody to start it. It's usually senior female leaders who are kickstarting a networking environment and some good groups to have some great impact and then, also making sure that they get the visibility to see we accomplish great things together. We raise the topics that not everybody would see. And really bringing the other voice to the table to have like contradicting perspectives on what a company should do on the product side, but also on the general strategic side of things. And then building from there to say, "How can we also build great project teams that support these ideas and to really get the momentum going." Not big programs, but will really impact all communities that will push the topics. >> Awesome. Well, great, great, great panel here. Building a startup culture that empowers women in tech. You guys are amazing. Final question, rapid fire, go down the line. We'll start with Rachel, Andrea, Asha. What's it take to have that kind of success for startup? If you could share quickly what your advice is for people watching and succeeding in a startup. >> I would say focus, intention, and commitment. >> John: Andrea. >> I would say courage, backbone, authenticity. >> I couldn't agree more with Rachel. Focus and commitment. It is for me too. >> Well, you guys are amazing. Congratulations. And MessageBird, again, great ratios. You guys are succeeding. You're a standard for the industry and congratulations and thank you for taking the time on theCUBE's coverage National Women's Day. We also have women in data science at Stanford, with other programs going on today. It's a big day. Thank you very much for coming on. Really appreciate it. Thank you. >> Thank you, Jim. >> Okay, this is theCUBE's coverage of international news. I'm John Furrier, your host. Thanks for watching. (relaxing music)

(upbeat music) >> Hi everybody, welcome back to London. I'm Dave Vellante and you're watching theCUBE. We go out to the events, we extract the signal from the noise and we've been following AWS generally and the public sector specifically for a number of years now. We've seen the ascendancy of an expansion of public sector. We've covered the career of Teresa Carlson, and we're here in London ahead of AWS Summit London. There's a pre-day here, there's a number of public sector companies, there's a focus on healthcare. Kieron James is here, he's the founder of Wonderful.org. Wonderful.org is a fundraising vehicle, it's a really setup platform essentially for self-service. Kieron, welcome to theCUBE, thanks for coming up. >> Hello. >> So, tell me about Wonderful, why you started this organization? >> Wonderful was kicked off when I got to my 50th birthday, essentially, it's a way to give back. I've been involved in the tech sector for many years and we were sitting on quite a lot of infrastructure. We thought we had some spec paucity as well and we thought what we can do with the resource, human and physical, in terms of giving something back to charities. So, one of the things that looked like a great opportunity was to setup a completely fee-free fundraising platform. And essentially, that's what we kicked off with a brief of concept in 2016. >> So, fee-free meaning I can come in, I can setup my own fundraising vehicle so all the money goes to the recipients. >> A 100%, we have no charges whatsoever to charities, to donors, to fundraisers. And essentially, all the card processing fees as well are covered, and through the generosity of AWS and its NPO program, we've been able to also cover things like hosting as well which has been phenomenal for us, 'cause it really does enable us to give every single penny to charity. >> So, how do you fund your staff? >> The staff currently on our model going forward, if it's one that we continue, if we can continue to support is through secondment. So, we seconded our technical resource from my day job which is essentially running a telecoms business, and those guys are incredibly generous with their time. So, evenings and weekends have been devoted to setting up and maintaining the platform. We've called in favors from people we have networked with over the years. So again, when we moved beyond proof of concept into the current website now, the current build, we were able to get that done with some cost but albeit, a fraction of what we would've paid commercially. And essentially as we move forward, we want the whole concept to Wonderful.org to be something much bigger than just the organization. It's a vehicle for commercial organizations to do good. >> So, lots of in-kind contributions, lots of your time obviously so, when did you start the organization? >> 2016 and essentially, we went through what I describe as a proof of concept. We set three broad milestones, one was the first 100 charities onboard, first 100,000 pounds of a revenue or charity not really revenue but charity donations through the website. And we launched our first Wonderful week where we brought some sports celebrities including Phil Neville, now the manager of the England women's football team. He came on board to do some charity work for us with his family. Once we passed through those three milestones, it was then a case of saying, okay we've achieved all of these now, let's push the button and actually do this properly in inverted commas, and that's when we looked at hosting the thing properly, looked at the commercial build and so on. >> So that those milestones were really the prove the concept. >> Yeah. >> But they're pretty substantial milestone, >> Sure. >> And you hit them pretty fast though. >> We did hit them fast but again to give you some context on that, the first 100,000 through the website probably took us I would guess between 12 and 14 months. In the last 28 days, we've processed about a quarter of a million pounds through the website. So, the growth's been phenomenal and the appetite from the charities is enormous. What's particularly interesting about our sector is that whilst the lot of the events that take place like the London Marathon and so on, are very predictable, we know exactly the date and time that people are gonna be donating. Clearly, you get events that are completely unpredictable. We've gotta be able to respond and be available for donors to give when those kinds of things happen. >> Okay so, this leads me to the conversation about your infrastructure and obviously the Cloud. When you started the organization, you had your own owned premises infrastructure, correct? >> Correct. >> So take us through what that looked like and your decision to move to the Cloud. >> Expensive, disjointed, very complex. So, we were running essentially a full stock on a number of servers that were hosted independently. Co-location was expensive, maintenance was expensive, even things like getting to site were expensive, and if the rare occasions when you do have to do that in a hurry it can be quite time-consuming, particularly as I say given our profile where these guys are really doing it for love not money. So, it became apparent to us, I think learning from some scenarios that we've seen in the real world with other platforms as well when even the predictable events had still created some concerns for some of the charities in terms of availability. So, we've took a long hard look at what we had and said, are we scalable, are we fully available? Probably not, we need to look at this in some detail now. So, that was when we completely re-architected the website and looked at AWS. >> So, it was not only a matter of say scaling up for high demand and unpredictability but you had a fragile infrastructure. >> We did. >> And essentially, (chuckles) you're volunteers trying to keep it together. >> Exactly. >> So that's not a good formula for high availability, right? >> No, absolutely not. >> So, how does that change with the Cloud? >> With the Cloud, I think what we've got now is we've got a really good view of everything. We've got a view of the whole of our infrastructure in one place, so it gives our operations director a lot more peace of mind 'cause he can see all of the resources at his disposal. I think in terms of security, it's far far better for us as well, because we can manage access to various components, available US, depending on who needs access. So, our web developers are currently remote, they're not formally part of the organization. So, we can strict access to things that we don't want 'em to have access and so on and give them full access where it's required. So, I think that's been a lot of peace of mind for the operations director. And just having that confidence in clearly a brand that's got a huge reputation and people feel immensely confident about seeing. So, for us being to put the AWS badge on the website to reinforce to our users, to our donors that we're here, we're solid, we're stable, we're not going anywhere, it's really really important. >> Anyway, you said upfront that Adobe has some skin in the game, they're providing some services, >> They are. >> Some contributions. >> Yeah. >> So, that's gotta be pretty substantial. >> Massive. >> For you guys, yeah. >> Absolutely massive. I mean in all honesty, it's second only to card processing which is a significant cost of doing our business and one which is paid for by our other corporate sponsors. It's our second biggest cost without a doubt or would be if it were a cost but mercifully, AWS has come to the rescue and we're able to do what we're doing now. >> So corporate sponsors, give a little commercial, how does that work? >> Well essentially, our biggest corporate sponsor, our main partner at the moment is The Co Operative Bank and they have underwritten all of our card processing fees for the duration of that partnership. The big caveat with that is that we don't know what they will be and whilst we can provide some forecast based on empirical evidence, worst case scenario, there's another tragedy, people reach for their wallets and give, and suddenly that can go through the roof in the course of a couple of weeks. So, the difficulty in bringing corporate sponsors on for us is just that kind of unpredictability of the sector that we're operating in, but they've been tremendous. >> That's amazing right? >> Yeah. >> 'cause I could say that's a big junk of your cost >> For sure. >> Along with your infrastructure but, I'm fascinated by this organization and just wanna congratulate you on the mission and actually getting it off the ground because we all when we give to a charity, we always ask okay, what are the administrative cost behind this? You go to the website and you look it up and sometimes you just don't feel comfortable, and so what you've done is actually just eliminated that overhead. >> Completely. >> And where do you see this going? I mean you've got like 15 hundred registered charities now. >> Yes, yeah we're up to 15 hundred, again we've had a couple of fairly major events we were endorsed by the Money Saving Expert at number one but how could they not put us at number one. (they both laugh) Would've been very odd if they hadn't, given that we're the only completely fee-free platform. That clearly creates the demand and I think that endorsement was a huge catalyst to the growth. More recently, we've seen other things, BT MyDonate actually pulled out of this sector which has caused a lot of charities to migrate to our platform as well. In terms of where we see it going, we will need to continue to raise money from corporate sponsors to support it. But, there is a real step game in that, we have to manage that growth to meet their expectations as best as we can. But equally, new corporate sponsors coming onboard will want to see that we've got enough eyeballs to make it worth their while getting behind the organization. So, it's that constant game of trying to bring on the next round of funding and getting people through. >> How global do you see this getting? How is it today and in the future? >> Conceptually, there's no reason at all why this shouldn't be a global phenomenon but, we're now very concentrated on the UK, just because of our resource and we do get requests all of the time for international charities, for international fundraisers and so on, but we've gotta be realistic about what we can support. But going back to the point that I made earlier, it really isn't about Wonderful.org, it's about just corporations, fundraisers, charities, donors, we see all of the last three being wonderful all of the time by the nature of what they do, we're just trying to get more corporations to be as wonderful as, sounds terribly sick and fancy, but as AWS has been in supporting what we're doing, it's that sense of what we're trying to achieve here goes beyond one organization. >> Well, and the Cloud allows you to scale potentially to the extent that you can get the resource. There's no reason you can't go global. >> No. >> I'm gonna check it out and see even for a little local charity, can I (he chuckles), >> Absolutely. >> Can I participate, what does that involve? Do you have to have some minimum threshold or? >> No? >> No, anybody can-- >> Anybody, but you need to be a registered UK charity with one of the UK registrars. Beyond that, we go through a little bit of due diligence with the charity, so we will need to see some documentation. So, there's a little manual step in onboarding charities, but for all the right reasons, we wanna be diligent about the people using the platform to give the fundraisers the confidence that they're donating to a charity. So, we don't do any peer-to-peer fundraising, it is literally you'll register as a charity and the fundraisers can support your charity, often led by the fundraisers rather than the charities, interestingly, so the fundraisers will be saying to the charities, why are you not on this platform which gives you everything and you're already on this platform which doesn't. So, there's quite a lot of pressure now coming from the fundraisers to pull the charities in. >> So, there's a lot of word-of-mouth, a lot of peer-to-peer. >> Absolutely. >> Right, you don't really have the funding. >> There is no. >> The budget to go market. >> Not at all. >> Yeah, that's remote. >> Absolutely not. >> Well, hopefully this will help. >> Thank you very much. >> Thanks so much for coming to theCUBE, really appreciate your time. >> Thank you. >> Alright, thank you for watching everybody. This is Dave Vellante, you're watching theCUBE. We'll be back right after this short break from AWS HQ in London, right back. (upbeat music)

(techno music) >> Narrator: From Austin, Texas It's theCUBE, covering DockerCon 2017. Brought to you by Docker, and support from EnSync System Partners. >> Welcome back to theCUBE, I'm Stu Miniman, here with Jim Kobielus. Happy to welcome back to the program. Someone we've had on theCUBE many times, Ben Golub, who is the CEO of Docker. Welcome Back. Hey, congratulations to you and the team. >> Oh hey, thank you, and I'd like to say, this is our favorite time of year. Followed very closely by the week after DockerCon and we no longer have to do it. >> Absolutely, I mean, look, I'd say the word that stuck out for me the most this morning is, 'scaleability'. So, we talk about how customers are thinking about scaleability, how you scale the different solutions you have. And, look at the scale of an event like this. So, you know, we've got, you know, this big event here, 5,500 people ... Which we were reminiscing back to like the first DockerCon and the growth of this. It's impressive and it's done really well. I haven't seen people griping about taking an hour to check in, the food's been good ... You know, the lines haven't been. >> Ben: Yeah, good. >> And, Austin always a fun place to come, >> Absolutely. >> Apropos for all the open source stuff that's going on. >> Yeah, the only problem is, this is the first place where we've had a Docker conference, where we haven't been at a port. So, like all of these great, look at the containers ships outside, you know, we can no longer do that. But, that's okay. >> Uh, Vancouver would maybe be good. I remember actually, I did puns for an entire week when we were at Open Stack Summit in Vancouver. Overlooking the bay there cause there is container ships everywhere. >> Ben: Is that right? >> So Ben, you know please just bring us up to speed ... Kind of you, the team, we've gone through a lot of the announcements but, so some of the highlights for it. >> Yeah, I mean, I mean obviously this morning we had a lot of fantastic announcements. We talked about Lenox Kit. We talked about Mobi. You saw, just huge improvements in the developer flow. Tomorrow is going to be a lot about enterprise. For me, that's really the most exciting change that we've seen over the past year. It's just an explosion of Docker and the enterprise. You know, Docker has brought on over 400 enterprise class customers. Some of the largest names uh, really in the industry right? And, some of them like, MetLife and VISA and Intuit, will be talking live tomorrow. Um, and what's been especially interesting for us is that, the use of Docker is not just for Greenfield projects. Um, Docker's being used to keep planes in the air, keep trains running on time, and it's being used in the largest, some of the largest financial transactions, handling, you know, millions and millions of transactions a day, right? And, that's really exciting for us, it's also very humbling. >> All those used cases you throw out, it's Docker cover lots of applications, from a wide variety of things. It reminds of what we've see. >> Right, right. A lot of them are, you know, they're 15 three year old applications as well as, you know, two minute old applications. >> Yeah, and it's something we've been picking at is how much is it the new stuff, and how much is it the platform, that can bring some of the older stuff in. And, then we look at how we change it over time. I think it's something we've been struggling with, kind of, whole cloud and app, you know, modernization, for years now. >> Yeah, well I think it's really good. I think, um, that there's this sort of, there's this fallacy, that sort of persisted for a while, where people thought, okay, you know if you're going to have BiModal IT, there's going to be the new cool stuff down in the containers running the cloud, and then all that old stuff is just going to wither and die in some dark data center somewhere. >> Yeah, right. >> It doesn't match what we hear. >> That's absolutely not the case actually, you know. If we look across our customer base, you know, about 50% of them are beginning their Docker journey with their traditional apps. Now that's not where it ends. But, you know, if you think about it just by taking 80% or 90% of the apps out there, our traditional applications run in, you know, traditional infrastructure. And, just by taking a traditional application, you put it inside of a Docker container, you know, automatically you're getting, without changing a single line of code, something between 75% and 5X better resource utilization. You're able to do simple things like, upgrade your data base, or move from an old machine to a new machine, or old data center to a new data center. Again, without changing a single line of code. But, then the magic starts. >> Right? Then you start taking that traditional application, and treating it in a more modern way. CICD, gradually breaking it down into smaller and smaller bits, and that's the way it goes. >> So, You know, some of has struggled. We said, remember back to virtualization. Virtualization has the easy low hanging fruit of, oh, I can consolidate. I can get great utilization. %I can save a lot of money. I think you did a good job laying out. You know, in your last statement there. But, it's not as simple, you know? When it gets bubbled up to the customers, you know, the board, the sea level, when they're doing this. What is it they're like? What's the initiative they're running? Cause, it's not ... Nobody says, oh I have a container problem. >> Ben: Uh, right, right, we fix it. >> What is that business need, you know, that you're helping to, you're helping them to itch? >> Well, it's something all they need to, they need to be more efficient. They need to be faster, right? >> And, Docker helps you do that if you're running brand spanking new applications. >> Yeah, but she loves that. We talked about that for a while. >> It's agility. But, you know, part of agility is also making sure that your existing applications don't weigh you down, right? And, and that they actually support your business gradually going forward. >> Yeah. And, I mean, one of the things, one of the things that excited me about containers in the early days, is ... I'm an infrastructure guy, and, infrastructure has always held us back. and, the atomic, you know, you know, containers bring the applications really as the atomic note. yIt's not the server or their VM. It's the app, or you know, the 12 factor, you know, app there so. So if the app's driving it, not that infrastructure matters, but, it's not the thing driving it. >> Right, well the ... by focusing on the app, we actually let people choose the infrastructure that they want, or migrate from, you know one style of infrastructure to another style, over time. Uh, what it also though means is, if you're focusing on the app, or on the container, then how do you think about security, and how do you think about networking, and how you think about compliance? Uh, all of those things need a refresh. But, the good news is &once you do that refresh, it's actually much faster, and much more efficient. >> Alright, So you know John Furrier wouldn't let this interview come without, you know popping in. So, he is just sending me a note, and he said, "What is the intersection between the cloud native, and the app developers, that you're seeing?" >> Uh, the internet intersection between the cloud native ... >> Cloud native and app developers. >> Um, you know, I think that developers want to build really cool stuff. And, if they build a cloud native, that's fantastic. Um, if they want to build it, not being cloud native, that's very cool too, right? We're seeing this whole generation of, of developers who, you know, may have been working in Java for the past 15 years, or working in, ah, dot net. Um, They're able to do really, really cool things. Um, With Docker, uh, and it actually helps bring them into the cloud native space. But, you don't have to rewrite an amazing application, just because of your architecture, your infrastructure is changing. >> Yeah, you can wrap and refactor, and migrate your existing applications at the pace that you wish. Uh, rather than being forcibly upgraded or migrated. >> That's right, that's right. You also don't need to know what cloud you're going to be running on four years from now. Or, what infrastructure you're going to be running on, or, what your apps going to be able to do, right? Um, you know, this stuff happens organically with Docker. And, that's really part of the beauty of it. >> You know you are developing for the multi-cloud. In other words, the cloud you're on today, and the clouds you might be on tomorrow, and a flexible or graceful transition. And, you know, it's really cloud churn over time you're going to be on a variety of clouds, and you just want to make sure your applications, and your data and all your assets are easily migrate-able. >> Yeah, I think you stated that really well, and I think especially as people start looking into, you know, applications where they want to burst, or applications that are sort of big data where they want to, you know, be moving the application to the data rather than the date to the applications, right? Um, it needs to be multi-cloud because actually, or multi-location, right? Um, and we're happy to help with that. >> Um, so, we've watched the maturity of the technology, and the growth of the system. I mean, I think a lot of us were really happy. Eco system, I mean, you know, Soloman did a great job of highlighting that. To be honest, some of the swarm stuff, with Docker data center last year, felt like ... >> Felt like we were fighting, yeah. >> It felt like a little bit of fighting, and it feels like we're healing, and we're coming together, and, we're growing that. So, maybe speak on that a little bit. But, the follow up question I have for you on kind of the business is, I think we're still pretty early in the modernization strategy for this. And, I think it's good for people to realize that. That, you know, all of this stuff doesn't happen over night. It's amazing to see how far it's come, you know, In just four years of the company. Um, but, you know, I'll let you riff on those two things. >> Yeah, yeah, I mean, so I'll start with the first one, which is, um, you know, fighting within the eco system. You know, there's this sort of this saying that, you know, people hate people of a slightly different sect, more than they hate pagans, right? (laughing) so I think sometimes within, within like the open source community, oh, you take a slightly different approach towards orchestration than I would of taken, therefore, we should be enemies. And, then suddenly you take a step back and say, "now wait a minute, we're all trying to do the same thing. Build great apps and make the world, uh, enable people to build great things, Right?" And, I think as Solomon laid out today, right? Orchestration, container run time, security, networking, various slavers of the security. These are all things, that actually should be really atomic, and we should be able to all collaborate on them. So, you're seeing a lot more of that. Cause also what we're seeing is in terms of modernization you know, modernization isn't a single, isn't driven by a single factor. It's not driven by orchestration, or it's not driven by networking. It's really, what we're seeing more and more is that it's being driven by the supply chain. And it's how do I as an enterprise, with lots of developers building lots of different types of apps. Some are old, some are new, some are Lenix, some are Windows, some are running on Prim, some are running in the cloud. How do I manage that supply chain, and have it be secure no matter where it's going? And, that's where we're able to add a lot of value. What we're finding as a business, to get to your point. Is that we'll meet the customer wherever they want to start. Our business model, our subscription model, we charge based off of you know, nodes per year, or nodes per minute, if you really want to go there. And, we just let them gradually start using more and more and more. So we're actually very excited. Not only do we have, you know, 400 large customers, and you know, 10,000 smaller customers. But, we're seeing every customer is expanding, is renewing, and so customers who were on 40 nodes six months ago, are now on 400, 500, a 1,000 nodes. We have on 12,000 node customer, uh, and that's really good for our business model. >> Yeah, the other question from Furrier is, you know, what KPI's are you tracking this year? Are you talking, 400 enterprise customers, you look at, you know, the size of how many employees you have, you know. What are some of the growth drivers and levers that you guys are playing with this year? >> Yeah, it's honestly for us, the most important metrics that we're looking at is, is obviously number of new users, how that translates into number of new customers. You know, within the customers, how many nodes are they deploying on, and most importantly, how many more of them? >> What about your host, is that growing too? >> That's growing too, right, right? So, designated containers for host is growing. Ah, and for us, the KPI is okay. You know, how are those customers doing? How many of them are renewing? How many of them are expanding? Um, and for us, you know, I think that sort of brings it back to the customer level. We do a good job with the customers, especially with this subscription business model. I think that sort of forces you to, if you invest in the customer, they're going to invest in you. >> Yeah, um, speaking of money, we've got Cherry Chen coming on next. And, as far as you're saying, there's a lot of top VC's here. What do you see that, what's driving investment in this area? Um, you know, where are you guys with dollars? Anything you can you say on that? Just kind of the VC investment end. >> Okay, tell Furrier if he wants to ask difficult questions, you've got to be sitting here, otherwise ... (laughing) Um, uh, no, so, so, we're seeing ... >> He's shy, he can only talk through an intermediary. >> Yeah. I understand. John is not shy. >> Talk for yourself John. >> Um, we're very happy about what's happening with our modernization. We're seeing the top line growing much, much faster than the expanse line growing. I mean, if we want them to cross right at a certain point. But, it looks like that's going to happen pretty soon here. But, I think there's so much interest in this area, because this is really is much broader than a single application, right? I mean, yeah, you can go out and you can invest in some great sales companies, or, you know, some great open source application companies. But, you know, containerization and dockerization, right? It's really a c-chain, and it's impacting infrastructure, and it's impacting apps. It's impacting networking and storage, and also the other traditional areas, but I think in a really exciting way. >> Yeah, can you speak to the culture of Docker? I remember that first show in 2014, 42 employees. And, now you've got a little over 300. What is, you know, the prototype? What do you look for in a docker, an employee there, you know, what do you see this company being when you're a 1,000 employees? >> That's a really good question? >> How do you motivate them? What is the vision that they're all ... >> Well something like this. This is incredibly motivating. And, I honestly, um, for people at Docker, we look for all different types, sort of say, hey, we kind of like people who are type A personalities, and type B bodies, you know? (laughing) We're really excited, but are able to, you know, run at sprint pace for a marathon. Um, but honestly the things that keep us really, really motivated is, I say, if you're ever feeling down at Docker, go talk to users, go talk to customers, and that will get you excited. I spoke this morning about, ah, TGN, which is this non-profit genomics company. The fact that Docker has enabled them to sequence individual pages of genomes, so much faster, and diagnose them, and cure them faster. You know, you heard the story of the young girl who spent the first 12 years of her life in a wheel chair, barely able to talk. And, now because of things that Docker helped enable, she's out, she's living life like a typical teenager. Wants to become a genomics scientist when she grows up. Going to main stream school. I mean that, that's motivating. And, that helps to deal with the normal trough of oh, okay the code didn't work, we missed the ship date, whatever the case may be. >> Yeah, yeah, you didn't help advertising clicks. You know, you're helping to improve lives. And to that, I love that the show here, you've got some charitable events, that you're contributing to. Are there activities you guys are doing at corporate to help to drive, kind of, civic engagement? >> Um, you know, we do, but what we found is the best is when it comes from, from inside our employee base. Of course, our employee base would really love nothing more than going out, and talking to users, and to some extent we do have a lot of charitable things that we do. It's really exciting to have, 14 and 13 year olds who are using your technology. I mean, who would ever thought? I spent my entire life trying to have something that my kids would think is cool, and actually now, they think Docker is. >> How does it tie in with education? Are you guys helping to, you know, the next generation of active people? >> Absolutely, Docker is actually being used very broadly in computer science courses. Just because, that's basically how teachers want students to submit their, submit their projects to them, submit within the Docker container, right? Of course, we're thrilled that they're learning how to use Docker. It also means that students, they don't need to worry about making sure the student's laptops are set up correctly. They can focus on writing great code. So, yeah, we engage in education. We're doing some educational work with people in San Francisco. Just because that's our home base. And, we're really happy to support you know, three, actually four wonderful charities that are here at DockerCon today. You know, some servicing, LGBT youth, we've got one in the genomics space. Uh, one focused on teaching coding. Uh, and that just kind of ... That really helps to stay motivated. To stay motivated. >> It's a shame that you're not having any fun. >> You know, I'm having a ton of fun. I'm exhausted. I'll probably collapse in a corner. You know, come Friday. >> And as you said, your second favorite week of the year is this week, right? >> Absolutely, absolutely. >> Alright Ben, I want to give you the final word, you know, we've got another day, I'm sure you've got a ton of stuff in the announcements tomorrow. We're going to have Solomon on right after the key note tomorrow, but when people leave Austin, what do you want them to know about, you know, the Docker community and Docker the company? >> You know, I'd say that, you know, Docker is here, Docker is now, Docker is for old and for new, for on premise, and for cloud, for Lenix and for Windows. Docker is here for you, and however you want to use us, we're going to help you do amazing things faster. >> Alright, I think that's wonderful Cube gem to end this on, Ben Golub, CEO of Docker, always a pleasure to talk with you. Congratulations on the show. We are thrilled to be able to be here to cover it. >> Okay. >> And we'll back with one more guest here, on our day one of two days of live coverage, you're watching theCUBE. (techno music)