>>From around the globe. It's the queue with digital coverage of AWS reinvent 2020 sponsored by Intel, AWS and our community partners. >>Welcome back to the cubes. Live coverage for ADFS reinvent 2020 I'm John Ford with the cube, your host. We are the cube virtual. We're not there in person this year. We're remote with the pandemic and we're here for the keynote analysis for Verner Vogels, and we've got some great analysts on and friends of the cube cube alumni is Rob Hirschfeld is the founder and CEO of Rakin a pioneer in the dev ops space, as well as early on on the bare metal, getting on the whole on-premise he's seen the vision and I can tell you, I've talked to him many times over the years. He's been on the same track. He's on the right wave frog. Great to have you on. I'm going to have to start Veatch, come on. Y'all come on as well, but great to see you. Thanks, pleasure to be here. Um, so the keynote with Verna was, you know, he's like takes you on a journey, you know, and, and virtual is actually a little bit different vibe, but I thought he did an exceptional job of stage layout and some of the virtual stage craft. Um, but what I really enjoyed the most was really this next level, thinking around systems thinking, right, which is my favorite topic, because, you know, we've been saying, going back 10 years, the cloud is just, here's a computer, right. It's operating system. And so, um, this is the big thing. This is, what's your reaction to the keynote. >>Wow. So I think you're right. This is one of the challenges with what Amazon has been building is it's, you know, it is a lock box, it's a service. So you don't, you don't get to see behind the scenes. You don't really get to know how they run these services. And what, what I see happening out of all of those pieces is they've really come back and said, we need to help people operate this platform. And, and that shouldn't be surprising to anyone. Right? Last couple of years, they've been rolling out service, service service, all these new things. This talk was really different for Verner's con normal ones, because he wasn't talking about whizzbang new technologies. Um, he was really talking about operations, um, you know, died in the wool. How do we make the system easier to use? How do we expose things? What assistance can we have in, in building applications? Uh, in some cases it felt like, uh, an application performance monitoring or management APM talk from five or even 10 years ago, um, canaries, um, you know, Canary deployments, chaos engineering, observability, uh, sort of bread and butter, operational things. >>We have Savi Joel, who's a influencer cloud computing Xtrordinair dev ops guru. Uh, we don't need dev ops guru from Amazon. We got Sarpy and prop here. So it'd be great to see you. Um, you guys had a watch party. Um, tell me what the reaction was, um, with, of the influencers in the cloud or ADI out there that were looking at Vernon's announcement, because it does attract a tech crowd. What was your take and what was the conversation like? >>Yeah, we kinda geeked out. Um, we had a watch party and we were commenting back and forth, like when we were watching it. I think that the general consensus is that the complexity of AWS stack itself is, is increasing. Right. And they have been focused on developers a lot, I think a lot longer than they needed to be a little bit. I think, uh, now they need to focus on the operations. Like we, we are, we all love dev ops talks and it's very fancy and it's very modern way of building software. But if you think deep down that, like once we developed software traditionally and, and also going forward, I think we need to have that separation. Once you develop something in production, it's, it's, it's operating right. Once you build a car, you're operating car, you're not building car all the time. Right? >>So same with the software. Once you build a system, it should have some stability where you're running it, operating it for, for a while, at least before you touch it or refactoring all that stuff. So I think like building and operating at the same time, it's very good for companies like Amazon, AWS, especially, uh, and, and Google and, and, and Facebook and all those folks who are building technology because they are purely high-tech companies, but not for GM Ford Chrysler or Kaiser Permanente, which is healthcare or a school district. The, they, they need, need to operate that stuff once it's built. So I think, uh, the operationalization of cloud, uh, well, I think take focus going forward a lot more than it has and absorbable Deanna, on a funny note, I said, observability is one of those things. I, now these days, like, like, you know, and the beauty pageants that every contestant say is like, whatever question you asked, is it Dora and the answer and say at the end world peace, right? >>And that's a world peace term, which is the absorbability. Like you can talk about all the tech stuff and all that stuff. And at the end you say observability and you'll be fine. So, um, what I'm making is like observability is, and was very important. And when I was talking today about like how we can enable the building of absorbability into this new paradigm, which is a microservices, like where you pass a service ID, uh, all across all the functions from beginning to the end. Right. And so, so you can trace stuff. So I think he was talking, uh, at that level. Yeah. >>Let me, let's take an observer Billy real quick. I have a couple of other points. I want to get your opinions on. He said, quote, this three, enabling major enabling technologies, powering observability metrics, logging and tracing here. We know that it would, that is of course, but he didn't take a position. If you look at all the startups out there that are sitting there, the next observability, there's at least six that I know of. I mean, that are saying, and then you got ones that are kind of come in. I think signal effects was one. I liked, like I got bought by Splunk and then is observability, um, a feature, um, or is it a company? I mean, this is something that kind of gets talked about, right? I mean, it's, I mean, is it really something you can build a business on or is it a white space? That's a feature that gets pulled in what'd you guys react to that? >>So this is a platform conversation and, and, you know, one of the things that we've been having conversations around recently is this idea of platforms. And, and, you know, I've been doing a lot of work on infrastructure as code and distributed infrastructure and how people want infrastructure to be more code, like, which is very much what, what Verna was, was saying, right? How do we bring development process capabilities into our infrastructure operations? Um, and these are platform challenges. W what you're asking about from, uh, observability is perspective is if I'm running my code in a platform, if I'm running my infrastructure as a platform, I actually need to understand what that platform is doing and how it's making actions. Um, but today we haven't really built the platforms to be very transparent to the users. And observability becomes this necessary component to fix all the platforms that we have, whether they're Kubernetes or AWS, or, you know, even going back to VMware or bare metal, if you can't see what's going on, then you're operating in the blind. And that is an increasingly big problem. As we get more and more sophisticated infrastructure, right? Amazon's outage was based on systems can being very connected together, and we keep connecting systems together. And so we have to be able to diagnose and troubleshoot when those connections break or for using containers or Lambdas. The code that's running is ephemeral. It's only around for short periods of time. And if something's going wrong in it, it's incredibly hard to fix it, >>You know? And, and also he, you know, he reiterated his whole notion of log everything, right? He kept on banging on the drum on that one, like log everything, which is actually a good practice. You got to log everything. Why wouldn't you, >>I mean, how you do, but they don't make it easy. Right? Amazon has not made it easy to cross, cross, and, uh, connect all the data across all of those platforms. Right? People think of Amazon as one thing, but you know, the people who are using it understand it's actually a collection of services. And some of those are not particularly that tied together. So figuring out something that's going on across, across all of your service bundles, and this isn't an Amazon problem, this is an industry challenge. Especially as we go towards microservices, I have to be able to figure out what happened, even if I used 10 services, >>Horizontal, scalability argument. Sorry. Do you want to get your thoughts on this? So the observability, uh, he also mentioned theory kind of couched it before he went into the talk about systems theory. I'm like, okay. Let's, I mean, I love systems, and I think that's going to be the big wake up call here for the next 10 years. That's a systems mindset. And I think, you know, um, Rob's right. It's a platform conversation. When you're thinking about an operating system or a system, it has consequences when things change, but he talked about controllability versus, uh, observability and kinda T that teed up the, well, you can control systems controls, or you can have observability, uh, what's he getting at in all of this? What's he trying to say, keep, you know, is it a cover story? Is it this, is it a feature? What was the, what was the burner getting at with all this? >>Uh, I, I, I believe they, they understand that, that, uh, that all these services are very sort of micro in nature from Amazon itself. Right. And then they are not tied together as Rob said earlier. And they, he addressed that. He, uh, he, uh, announced that service. I don't know the name of that right now of problem ahead that we will gather all the data from all the different places. And then you can take a look at all the data coming from different services at this at one place where you have the service ID passed on to all the servers services. You have to do that. It's a discipline as a software developer, you have to sort of adhere to even in traditional world, like, like, you know, like how you do logging and monitoring and tracing, um, it's, it's your creativity at play, right? >>So that's what software is like, if you can pass on, I was treating what they gave an example of Citrix, uh, when, when, when you are using like tons of applications with George stream to your desktop, through Citrix, they had app ID concept, right? So you can trace what you're using and all that stuff, and you can trace the usage and all that stuff, and they can, they can map that log to that application, to that user. So you need that. So I think he w he was talking about, I think that's what he's getting too. Like we have to, we have to sort of rethink how we write software in this new Microsoft, uh, sort of a paradigm, which I believe it, it's a beautiful thing. Uh, as long as we can manage it, because Microsoft is, are spread across like, um, small and a smaller piece of software is everywhere, right? So the state, how do we keep the state intact? How do we, um, sort of trace things? Uh, it becomes a huge problem if we don't do it right? So it it's, um, it's a little, this is some learning curve for most of the developers out there. So 60 dash 70% >>Rob was bringing this up, get into this whole crash. And what is it kind of breakdown? Because, you know, there's a point where you don't have the Nirvana of true horizontal scalability, where you might have microservices that need to traverse boundaries or systems, boundaries, where, or silos. So to Rob's point earlier, if you don't see it, you can't measure it or you can't get through it. How do you wire services across boundaries? Is that containers, is that, I mean, how does this all work? How do you guys see that working? I just see a train wreck there. >>It's, it's a really hard problem. And I don't think we should underestimate it because everything we toast talked about sounds great. If you're in a single AWS region, we're talking about distributed infrastructure, right? If you think about what we've been seeing, even more generally about, you know, edge sites, uh, colo on prem, you know, in cloud multi-region cloud, all these things are actually taking this one concept and you're like, Oh, I just want to store all the log data. Now, you're not going to store all your log data in one central location anymore. That in itself, as a distributed infrastructure problem, where I have to be able to troubleshoot what's going on, you know, and know that the logs are going to the right place and capture the data, that's really important. Um, and one of the innovations in this that I think is going to impact the industry over the next couple of years is the addition of more artificial intelligence and machine learning, into understanding operations patterns and practices. >>And I think that that's a really significant industry trend where Amazon has a distinct advantage because it's their systems and it's captive. They can analyze and collect a lot of data across very many customers and learn from those things and program systems that learn from those things. Um, and so the way you're going to keep up with this is not by logging more and more data, but by doing exactly what we're talking through, which was how do I analyze the patterns with machine learning so that I can get predictive analysis so that I can understand something that looks wrong and then put people on checking it before it goes wrong. >>All right, I gotta, I gotta bring up something controversial. I can't hold back any longer. Um, you know, Mark Zuckerberg said many, many years ago, all the old people, they can do startups, they're too old and you gotta be young and hungry. You gotta do that stuff. If we're talking systems theory, uh, automated meta reasoning, evolvable systems, resilience, distributed computing, isn't that us old guys that have actually have systems experience. I mean, if you're under the age of 30, you probably don't even know what a system is. Um, and, or co coded to the level of systems that we use to code. And I'm putting my quote old man kind of theory, only kidding, by the way on the 30. But my point is there is a generation of us that had done computer science in the, in the eighties and seventies, late seventies, maybe eighties and nineties, it's all it was, was systems. It was a systems world. Now, when you have a software world, the aperture is increasing in terms of software, are the younger generation of developers system thinkers, or have we lost that art, uh, or is it doesn't matter? What do you guys think? >>I, I think systems thinking comes with age. I mean, that's, that's sort of how I think, I mean, like I take the systems thinking a greater sort of, >>Um, world, like state as a system country, as a system and everything is a system, your body's a system family system, so it's the same way. And then what impacts the system when you operated internal things, which happened within the system and external, right. And we usually don't talk about the economics and geopolitics. There's a lot of the technology. Sometimes we do, like we have, I think we need to talk more about that, the data sovereignty and all that stuff. But, but even within the system, I think the younger people appreciate it less because they don't have the, they don't see, um, software taught like that in the universities. And, and, and, and by these micro micro universities now online trainings and stuff like sweaty, like, okay, you learn this thing and you're good at it saying, no, no, it's not like that. So you've got to understand the basics and how the systems operate. >>Uh, I'll give you an example. So like we were doing the, the, the client server in early nineties, and then gradually we moved more towards like having ESB enterprise services, bus where you pass a state, uh, from one object to another, and we can bring in the heterogeneous, uh, languages. This thing is written in Java. This is in.net. This is in Python. And then you can pass it through that. Uh, you're gonna make a state for, right. And that, that was contained environment. Like ESBs were contained environment. We were, I, I wrote software for ESPs myself at commerce one. And so like, we, what we need today is the ESP equallant in the cloud. We don't have that. >>Rob, is there a reverse ageism developers? I mean, if you're young, you might not have systems. What do you think? I, I don't agree with that. I actually think that the nature of the systems that we're programming forces people into more distributed infrastructure thinking the platforms we have today are much better than they were, you know, 20 years ago, 30 years ago, um, in the sense that I can do distributed infrastructure programming without thinking about it very much anymore, but you know, people know, they know how to use cloud. They know how to use a big platform. They know how to break things into microservices. I, I think that these are inherent skills that people need to think about that you're you're right. There is a challenge in that, you know, you get very used to the platform doing the work for you, and that you need to break through it, but that's an experiential thing, right? >>The more experienced developers are going to have to understand what the platforms do. Just like, you know, we used to have to understand how registers worked inside of a CPU, something I haven't worried about for a long, long time. So I, I don't think it's that big of a problem. Um, from, from that perspective, I do think that the thing that's really hard is collaboration. And so, you know, it's, it's hard people to people it's hard inside of a platform. It's hard when you're an Amazon size and you've been rolling out services all over the place and now have to figure out how to fit them all together. Um, and that to me is, is a design problem. And it's more about being patient and letting things, uh, mature. If anything might take away from this keynote is, you know, everybody asked Amazon to take a breath and work on usability and, and cross cross services synchronizations rather than, than adding more services into the mix. And that's, >>That's a good point. I mean, again, I bring up the conversation because it's kind of the elephant in the room and I make it being controversial to make a point there. So our view, because, you know, I interviewed Judy Estrin who helped found the internet with Vince Cerf. She's well-known for her contributions for the TCP IP protocol. Andy Besta Stein. Who's the, who's the Rembrandt of motherboards. But as Pat Gelsinger, CEO of VMware, I would say both said to me on the cube that without systems thinking, you don't understand consequences of when things change. And we start thinking about this microservices conversation, you start to hear a little bit of that pattern emerging, where those systems, uh, designs matter. And then you have, on the other hand, you have this modern application framework where serverless takes over. So, you know, Rob back to your infrastructure as code, it really isn't an either, or they're not mutually exclusive. You're going to have a set of nerds and geeks engineering systems to make them better and easier and scalable. And then you're going to have application developers that need to just make it work. So you start to see the formation of kind of the, I won't say swim lanes, but I mean, what do you guys think about that? Because you know, Judy and, um, Andy better sign up. They're kind of right. Uh, >>Th th the enemy here, and we're seeing this over and over again is complexity. And, and the challenge has been, and serverless is like, those people like, Oh, I don't have to worry about servers anymore because I'm dealing with serverless, which is not true. What you're doing is you're not worrying about infrastructure as much, but you, the complexity, especially in a serverless infrastructure where you're pulling, you know, events from all sorts of things, and you have one, one action, one piece of code, you know, triggering a whole bunch of other pieces of code in a decoupled way. We are, we are bringing so much complexity into these systems, um, that they're very hard to conceive of. Um, and AIML is not gonna not gonna address that. Um, I think one of the things that was wonderful about the setting, uh, in the sugar factory and at all of that, you know, sort of very mechanical viewpoint, you know, when you're actually connecting all things together, you can see it. A lot of what we've been building today is almost impossible to observe. And so the complexity price that we're paying in infrastructure is going up exponentially and we can't sustain infrastructures like that. We have to start leveling that in, right? >>Your point on the keynote, by the way, great call out on, on the, on the setting. I thought that was very clever. So what do you think about this? Because as enterprises go through this transformation, one of the big conversations is the solution architecture, the architecture of, um, how you lay all this out. It's complexity involved. Now you've got on premise system, you've got cloud, you've got edge, which you're hearing more and more local processing, disconnected systems, managing it at the edge with visualization. We're going to hear more about that, uh, with Dirk, when he comes on the queue, but you know, just in general as a practitioner out there, what, what's, what's your, what do you see people getting their arms around, around this, this keynote? What do they, what's your thoughts? >>Yeah, I, I think, uh, the, the pattern I see emerging is like, or in the whole industry, regardless, like if you put, when does your sign is that like, we will write less and less software in-house I believe that SAS will emerge. Uh, and it has to, I mean, that is the solution to kill the complexity. I believe, like we always talk about software all the time and we, we try to put this in the one band, like it's, everybody's dining, same kind of software, and they have, I'm going to complexity and they have the end years and all that stuff. That's not true. Right. If you are Facebook, you're writing totally different kind of software that needs to scale differently. You needs a lot of cash and all that stuff, right. Gash like this and cash. Well, I ain't both gases, but when you are a mid size enterprise out there in the middle, like fly over America, what, uh, my friend Wayne says, like, we need to think about those people too. >>Like, how do they drive software? What kind of software do they write? Like how many components they have in there? Like they have three tiers of four tiers. So I think they're a little more simpler software for internal use. We have to distinguish these applications. I always talk about this, like the systems of record systems of differentiation, the system of innovation. And I think cloud will do great. And the newer breed of applications, because you're doing a lot of, a lot of experimentation. You're doing a lot of DevOps. You have two pizza teams and all that stuff, which is good stuff we talk about, well, when you go to systems of record, you need stability. You need, you need some things which is operational. You don't want to touch it again, once it's in production. Right? And so the, in between that, that thing is, I think that's, that's where the complexity lies the systems are, which are in between those systems of record and system or innovation, which are very new Greenfield. That, that's what I think that's where we need to focus, uh, our, um, platform development, um, platform as a service development sort of, uh, dollars, if you will, as an industry, I think Amazon is doing that right. And, and Azura is doing that right to a certain extent too. I, I, I, I worry a little bit about, uh, uh, Google because they're more tilted towards the data science, uh, sort of side of things right now. >>Well, Microsoft has the most visibility into kind of the legacy world, but Rob, you're shaking your head there. Um, on his comment, >>You know, I, I, you know, I, I watched the complexity of all these systems and, and, you know, I'm not sure that sass suffocation of everything that we're doing is leading to less is pushing the complexity behind a curtain so that you, you, you can ignore the man behind the curtain. Um, but at the end of the day, you know what we're really driving towards. And I think Amazon is accelerating this. The cloud is accelerating. This is a new set of standard operating processes and procedures based on automation, based on API APIs, based on platforms, uh, that ultimately, I think people could own and could come back to how we want to operate it. When I look at what we w we were just shown with the keynote, you know, it was an, is things that application performance management and monitoring do. It's, it's not really Amazon specific stuff. There's no magic beans that Amazon is growing operational knowledge, you know, in Amazon, greenhouses that only they know how to consume. This is actually pretty block and tackle stuff. Yeah. And most people don't need to operate it at that type of scale to be successful. >>It's a great point. I mean, let's, let's pick up on that for the last couple of minutes we have left. Cause I think that's a great, great double-down because you're thinking about the mantra, Hey, everything is a service, you know, that's great for business model. You know, you hand it over to the techies. They go, wait a minute. What does that actually mean? It's harder. But when I talk to people out there and you hear people talking about everything is a service or sanctification, I do agree. I think you're putting complexity behind the curtain, but it's kind of the depends answer. So if you're going to have everything as a service, the common thesis is it has to have support automation everywhere. You got to automate things to make things sassiphy specified, which means you need five nines, like factory type environments. They're not true factories, but Rob, to your point, if you're going to make something a SAS, it better be Bulletproof. Because if you're, if you're automating something, it better be automated, right? You can measure things all you want, but if it's not automated, like a, like a, >>And you have no idea what's going on behind the curtains with some of these, these things, right. Especially, you know, I know our business and you know, our customers' businesses, they're, they're reliant on more and more services and you have no idea, you know, the persistence that service, if they're going to break an API, if they're going to change things, a lot of the stuff that Amazon is adding here defensively is because they're constantly changing the wheels on the bus. Um, and that is not bad operational practice. You should be resilient to that. You should have processes that are able to be constantly updated and CICB pipelines and, you know, continuous deployments, you shouldn't expect to, to, you know, fossilize your it environment in Amber, and then hope it doesn't have to change for 10 years. But at the same time, we'll work control your house. >>That's angle about better dev ops hypothetical, like a factory, almost metaphor. Do you care if the cars are being shipped down the assembly line and the output works and the output, if you have self-healing and you have these kinds of mechanisms, you know, you could have do care. The services are being terminated and stood up and reformed as long as the factory works. Right? So again, it's a complexity level of how much it, or you want to bite off and chew or make work. So to me, if it's automated, it's simple, did it work or not? And then the cost of work to be, what's your, what's your angle on this? Yeah. >>I believe if you believe in systems thinking, right. You have to believe in, um, um, the concept of, um, um, Oh gosh, I'm losing over minor. Um, abstraction. Right? So abstraction is your friend in software. Abstraction is your friend anyways, right? That's how we, humans pieces actually make a lot more progress than any other sort of living things here in this world. So that's why we are smart. We can abstract complexity behind the curtains, right? We, we can, we can keep improving, like from the, the, you know, wooden cart to the car, to the, to the plane, to the other, like, we, we, we have this, like when, when we see we are flying these airplanes, like 90% of the time they're on autopilot, like that's >>Hi, hiding my attractions is, is about evolution. Evolvable software term. He said, it's true. All right, guys, we have one minute left. Um, let's close this out real quick. Each of you give a closing statement on what you thought of the keynote and Verner's talk prop, we'll start with you. >>Uh, you know, as always, it's a perf keynote, uh, very different this year because it was so operationally focused and using the platform and, and helping people run their, their, off their applications and software better. And I think it's an interesting turn that we've been waiting for for Amazon, uh, to look at, you know, helping people use their own platform more. Um, so, uh, refreshing change and I think really powerful and well delivered. I really did like the setting >>Great shopping. And when we found, I found out today, that's Teresa Carlson is now running training and certification. So I'm expecting that to be highly awesomely accelerated a success there. Sorry, what's your take real quick on burners talk, walk away. Keynote thoughts. >>I, I, I think it was what I expected it to be like, he focused on the more like a software architecture kind of discussion. And he focused this time a little more on the ops side and the dev side, which I think they, they are pivoting a little bit, um, because they, they want to sell more AWS stuff to us, uh, to the existing enterprises. So I think, um, that was, um, good. Uh, I wish at the end, he said, not only like, go, go build, but also go build and operate. So can, you know, they all say, go build, build, build, but like, who's going to operate this stuff. Right. So I think, um, uh, I will see a little shift, I think, going forward, but we were talking earlier, uh, during or watch party that I think, uh, going forward, uh, AWS will open start open sourcing the commoditized version of their cloud, which have been commoditized by other vendors and gradually they will open source it so they can keep the hold onto the enterprises. I think that's what my take is. That's my prediction is >>Awesome and want, I'll make sure I'm at your watch party next time. Sorry. I missed it. Nobody's taking notes. Try and prepare. Sorry, Rob. Thanks for coming on and sharing awesome insight and expertise to experts in cloud and dev ops. I know them. And can firstly vouch for their awesomeness? Thanks for coming on. I think Verner can verify what I thought already was reporting Amazon everywhere. And if you connect the dots, this idea of reasoning, are we going to have smarter cloud? That's the next conversation? I'm John for your host of the cube here, trying to get smarter with Aus coverage. Thanks to Robin. Sarvi becoming on. Thanks for watching.

>> live from San Francisco, celebrating 10 years of high tech coverage. It's the Cube covering Veum World 2019 brought to you by the M wear and its ecosystem partners. >> Welcome back. I'm Stew Minuteman here with John Troyer. We're have three days, Walter Wall coverage here at VM World 2019 with lobbying Mosconi North and happy to welcome to the program. To my right is Tom Burns, who is the senior vice president general manager of networking and Solutions at Delhi Emcee and sitting to his right. Another Tom. We have Tom Gillis, who's the S V p and general manager of networking of Security inside VM wear. So I'm super excited. Go back to my roots of networking. Tom and Tom thanks so much for joining us. >> Thanks for having us. Thanks for All >> right. So, you know, Tom, you and I have talked for years now about you know, it was not just s t n, but you know, the changes in the environment. Of course, you know, networking and compute, you know, smashing together and where the role of software in this whole environment has changed. So, you know, let's start, you know, there's some news. Let's get that cover the hard news first. VM Where has the networking pieces? Dell has some software networking pieces also, and there's some more co mingling of those. So maybe walk us through that. >> Absolutely. I think the story this week is about the collaboration that's happening between Tom's team and my team in kind of innovating and disrupting in the traditional networking world. You know, Tom Sad NSX around micro segmentation network virtualization lot going on with analytics and capability to really see what's going on. The network from Cord Out EJ to cloud the acquisition of RV, which is outstanding. Other things that are going on in Vienna, where deli emcee disrupting around the segregation of hardware and software, giving customers that capability to run the nasty need for the connective ity they need, depending upon where the network is sitting. So this week we got two announcements. One is we've got worldwide shipment of the Delhi M CST Land solutions powered by being more great, you know better than none. Software combined with better than none. Hardware coming from del you see, on a global basis worldwide, you know, secure supply chain plus professional service worldwide is a parameter there, right? >> And Tom, maybe bring us in. You know, we'd watch Fellow Cloud before the acquisition esti weigh on. You know, there's a lot of solutions that fit in a couple of different markets. It's not a homogeneous market there. Maybe give us just kind of the camp point from Avella Clubs. Esty Esty. >> Wind is a white Hart market on because it has the classic combination a better, faster, cheaper. It delivers a better end user experience. It is so easy to deploy this and it saves money, NPLs, circuits and back hauling traffic those that was, ah, 19 nineties idea. It was a good idea back then, but it's time for a different approach. >> And just when I've talked to some customers and talk to them about their multi cloud environment, SD Wind, one of those enabling technologies that you know they will bring up to a mad allowed them to actually do that. >> It was it was the movement really >> office 3 65 and sass applications that drove the best human revolution and that back hauling all this traffic to headquarters and then going out to office for 65 when a user might be in, You know, Des Moines, that doesn't make any sense. And so so with us, the win we intelligently route the traffic where it needs to go delivers a better end user experience, and it saves a bunch of money. It's not hard to imagine that cheap broadband links are on order of magnitude lower than these dedicated mpls circuits. And the interesting math is that you could take two or three low cost links and deliver a better experience than with a single dedicated circuit. >> I'm kind of interested in the balance between hardware and software, right? The family trees of networking and compute kind of were different because if they had specialized needs in silicon, so where are we now? It's 2019. Where are we now? With with line speeds and X 86 then the hardware story. >> I think it'll let Tom join the discussion around speeds and feeds is not dead, but it should be dying to get a quick right. You know, it's around virtual network functions and everything really moving to the software layer. Sitting on top of commoditized X 86 based you know, hardware and the combination of these two factors help our customers a lot more with flexibility, agility, time to deploy, return on investment, all these types of things. But I mean, that's my view is a recurring theme you're gonna hear. Is that in networking? And think you're alluding to this You needed these dedicated kind of magical black boxes that had custom hardware in order to do some pretty basic processing. Whether it be switching, routing, advanced security, you had to run things like, you know, hardware. Regular expression, matching et cetera was about three years ago that Intel introduced a technology called D P D. K, which is an acceleration that allowed VM wear to deliver in software on a single CPU. You know, we could push traffic at line rates, and so so or, you know, faster than one rates. And so that was sort of like there wasn't the champagne didn't go off in the, you know, the bald in drop in Times Square. But it's a really important milestone because all of a sudden it doesn't make any sense to build these dedicated black boxes with custom hardware. Now, general purpose hardware, when you have a global supply chain and logistics partner like Dell, coupled with distributed software, can not only replace these network functions, but we can do things completely differently. And that's really you know, we're just beginning this journey because it's only recently that we've been able to do that. But I think you're gonna see a lot more that in the future. >> So we talked about SD win. Uh, there was a second announcement >> that goes back into the court. You know, the creation of a fabric inside of the data center is still a bit difficult. I mean, I've heard quotes saying It's something like 120 lines of cli, you know, per switch. So let's say 4 to 6 Leafs pitches, switches and two spine switches could take days to set up a fabric. What we've announced is the smart Fabric Director, which is a joint collaboration and development between Veum Wear and Delhi emcee that creates this capability to tightly integrate NSX envy Center into the deli emcee power switch, family of data center switches, really eliminating several cases and in fact, setting up that same fabric in less than two minutes. And we're really happy about not just the initial release. But Tom and I have a lot of plans for this particular product and in the road map for, you know, quarters and years to come about really simplifying again, the network automating it. And then, really, our version of intent based networking is the networking operating the way you configured it, you know, when you set it up and I think not just not just on day one, but two, you know and a N and you know you hit the nail on the head. Networking has changed, is no longer about speeds and feeds. It's about availability and simplicity. And so, you know, Del and GM, where I think are uniquely positions to deliver a level of automation where this stuff just works, right? I don't need to go and configure these magic boxes individually. I want to just right, you know, a line of code where my infrastructure is built into the C I. C. D pipeline. And then when I deploy workload, it just works. I don't need an army of people to go figure that out right, and and I think that's the power of what we're working together to unleash. >> So when something technology comes up like like SD win. Sometimes there's a lot of confusion in the marketplace. Vendors going out one size fits all. This will do everything Course. Where are we in the development of SD win and what is the solution? Who should be looking at taking a look at the solution now? >> SD win market, as I said, is growing depend on whose estimate you look at between 50 and 100% a year. And the reason is better, faster, cheaper. Right? So everyone has figured out, you know, like maybe it's timeto think differently about about architecture and save some money. Eso we just announced it on the PM or side, an important milestone. We have more than 13,000 network virtualization customers that includes our data center as well as yesterday, and we don't report them separately. But 13,000 is, you know, that's almost double where it was a year ago. So significant customer growth we also announced were deployed together with our partner from Del 130,000 branches around the world. So by many metrics, I think of'em, where is the number one vendor in this space to your point it is a crowded, noisy space. Everybody's throwing their hat in the Rangel. >> We do it too. >> But I think the thing that is driving the adoption and the sales of our product is that when you put this thing in, it fundamentally changes the experience for the end user. There's not a lot of networking products that do that. Like I meet customers like this thing is magic. You plug it in and all this and streaming just works, you know, like Google hangouts or Web X is like they just work and they worked seamlessly all the time that there's something there that I think it's still unique to the PM or product, and I think it's gonna continue to drive sales in the future. So I think the other strong differentiation when it comes to Del Technologies bm where in Delhi emcee combined is we have this vision around the cloud. You know, EJ core cloud and you know this hybrid multi cloud approach. And obviously SD Ram plays a critical part as one of the stepping stones as relates toe, you know, creating the environment for this multi cloud environment. So, you know, fantastic market opportunity huge growth. As Tom said, markets probably doubling in size each year. I don't know what the damn numbers are. I hate to quote, but you know, we really feel is, though now having this product in this capability inside a deli emcee, again combining our two assets, it could be the next VX rail. We're really good way. Believe the esteem and it's gonna be a gigantic market. And I think that what's interesting about our partnership is that we can reach different segments of the market in a V M, where we tend to focus on the very high end, large enterprise customers. Technically very sophisticated, delicate, rich customers we don't even know we don't even talk to, And a product is simple enough that it works in all segments. We win the very, very biggest, and we win these. You know, smaller accounts where the simplicity of a one quick deployment really really matters. >> Tom. One of the things that excited me a year ago at this show was the networking vision for a multi cloud world reminded to be of nice syrup. React. You know, when we look at networking today, most remote network admin a lot of the network they need to manage. They don't touch the gear. They don't know where it lives, but they're still responsible. Keep it up and running. And if something goes wrong, it's there. It is the update as to where we stand with that where your >> customers are asking the question, right? So our mantra is infrastructure is code, and so no one should ever have to log in with switch. No one should have to look into a Q. And you know, we should have to be like trying to move packets from here. They're just It's very, very difficult. I'm not really feasible. And so So as networking becomes software and those general purpose processors I talk about are giving us the ability to to think about not just a configuration of the network but the operation of the network in ways that were never before possible. So, for example, we announce that the show today with our monitoring product ve realise network in sight. We call it Bernie, not always such clever with the names that were really good at writing code, Vernon gives us the ability to measure application response time from the data center all the way out to the edge. So a single pane of glass we can show you. Oh, here's where it's broken whether it's in the network, whether it's in the server, whether it's the database, that's that's not responding. And we do this all without agents, right? So it's like when the infrastructure gets smart enough to be able to provide that inside, it changes the way the customer operates on. That translates into real savings and real adoption. And that's what's driving all of this momentum, right? That 7 500 to more than 13,000 customers, something has to be behind that. I think it's It's the simplicity of automation. >> CLI has come up a couple times here, and so that's kind of a dirty word. Maybe even these days, it kind of depends on who you're talking with, I think Veum Way. Rendell both spent a lot of time and effort educating the networking engineering market and also educating the kind of data center you know, the rest of the data center crew about, you know, about each other's worlds. Where again, where are we at now? It sounds like with director on with the innocent. The NSX whole stack? Yes. Uh, the role is changing of a network engineer. But again, where are we in that? In that evolution? >> I think you know, we're early on, but it's moving quite rapidly. I think the traditional network in engineer and networking admin is gonna need to evolve. You know more to this, Dev Ops. How do I bring applications? How do I manage the infrastructure? More like a platform. I mean, Tom and I truly believe that the difference between cute and network infrastructure is really going to start to dissolve over time. And why shouldn't it? I mean, based upon what's happening with the commoditization and speeds of the CPU versus the MP use coming from Mersin silicon, it's really beginning to blur. So I think, you >> know, we're in the early >> stages. I mean, certainly from a deli, see perspective. We still, at times, you know, have those discussions and challenges with traditional networking people. But let's face it, they have a tough job. When something's not working, the network administrator usually gets blamed, And so I think it's a journey, uh, and things such as the del Technology Cloud Open networking, NSX, and now SD when it will continue to drive that. And I think we're going to see a rapid change in networking over the next 12 18 to 24 months. I talked to a number of customers that has said, You know, this journey that Tom was talking about is this is a challenge because the skill set is different. My developers need to learn software, and so what? We're working with the M where is trying t o make that software easier and easier to use it actually approach like English language. So latest versions of NSX have these very simple, declarative AP eyes that you can say, Oh, server A talk to server be but not server see, Click Don Deploy. And now, in our partnership with L, we can take that Paulson push it right down into the metal, right down into the silicon. And so so. Simplification and automation are the name of the game, but it is definitely a fundamental change in the skill set necessary to do Networking. Networking is becoming more like software as opposed to, you know, speeds and feeds and packet sniffers and more the old traditional approaches. >> Tom, I don't want to give you the final word as to Ah, you know what people should be taken away from Dell in and Veum wear in the networking space. Well, >> I think across deli emcee and in being work, there's a great amount of collaboration, whether it's the Del Technology Cloud with of'em were really taking the leadership from from that perspective with this multi hybrid cloud. But in the area of networking, you know, Trudeau. Five years ago, when we announced the desegregation of hardware and software, I am in this to disrupt a networking business and to make networking very different tomorrow and in the future than it has been in the past for our customers around. He's deployment, automation and management, and I think that's a shared vision with Tom and his team and the rest of BM, where >> Tom Gillis, Tom Burns, thank you so much faster. Having eight, we'll be back with more coverage here from VM 2019 for John Troyer on stew. Minutemen as always. Thanks for watching the Cube

>> Live from Las Vegas, it's theCUBE covering AWS re:Invent 2018 brought to you by Amazon Web Services, Intel and, their Ecosystem Partners. >> Okay, welcome back everyone. Day three, we're live in Las Vegas for AWS re:Invent 2018. It's our sixth year covering Amazon re:Invent and AWS, Amazon Web Services meteoric rise in value, profitability, market share, just a rising tide floating all boats. I'm here with Dave Vellante. We're kicking off day three analyzing, you know, Vernon's keynote. Things start to wind down. Yesterday was kind of the big day with Andy Jassy. Dave, after yesterday it's pretty clear that there's a couple big mega trends that people are talking about. One AWS Outpost, okay, that is going to be a one year conversation about what that means, what implications. I mean basically if you're a Cloud-native company you order a data center and Amazon Prime will deliver it in two days, why would anyone want to buy hardware again from HPE or other companies? This is a huge risk, huge challenge, a huge shot across the bow to the industry because this essentially the thing. This is essentially Cloud in a box. Put it in, plug it in, we'll service, turn it on and it works and developers can just do their thing, that's amazing. So I think that's going to be a very hotly-contested topic throughout, at least one year until they ship that and all the posturing and jockeying's going to go on there. And then the other thing that was interesting was there was a lot of coolness, the F1, Racing car with analytics. You had Lockheed Martin with space satellite provisioning, that was pretty cool. And, you know, you got robots and IoT. That's cool, you got space, you got robots, you got, you know, sports cars all using analytics, all using AI, all using large-scale compute storage and networking, very elastic, all with all kinds of new tools and reference engines, but Jerry Chen laid it out from Greylock yesterday around the strategy. Amazon drives the cost down on the infrastructure side and bring the API concept up to AI and bring the marketplace together. So, a lot of action. Today we're going to see the impact and the fallout of that. What's your thoughts? >> Well, first of all John, there's so much to talk about. I want to say, so Werner Vogels this morning gave the keynote. When, when I first joined, you know this industry, we, IBM was everything, IBM was the dominant player. So we used to pour over IBM system and technology guides, and IBM white papers, because they set the technical standard for the industry and they shared that knowledge obviously with their customers to inspire them to buy more stuff, but they were giving back to the community as well to help people understand architectures and core computer science. Listening to Werner Vogels today, Amazon is now the beacon of technology in the industry. He went through the worse day of his life, which was December 12, 2004 when their Oracle Database went down for 12 hours because of a bug in the code and because they were pushing it beyond its limits. And so he described how they solved that problem over a multi-year effort and really got heavy into the technology of database, and recovery, and it was actually quite fascinating. But my takeaway was Amazon is now the company that is setting the technical direction of the industry for the next wave of Cloud-based applications. So that was actually really fascinating. We heard similar things on S3 and S3 recovery, even though they're still using some Oracle stuff it was really, really fascinating to see and very, very impressive. So that's one. As you say, there's so much to talk about. The IoT pieces, John, I really like what Amazon is doing with IoT. They're coming at it from a bottoms up approach, what do I mean by that? Do you remember when mobile first came out Microsoft basically said, hey we're going to put Windows on a phone, top down. We're going to take our existing IT Desktop standards, we're going to push 'em down to mobile, didn't work. And I see a lot of IT companies trying to do that with IoT today, not Amazon. Amazon's saying, look we're going to go bottoms up and serve the operation's technology people with a software development platform that's secure, that allows it, that's fully managed and allows them to build applications for IoT. I think it's the right approach. >> I think the other thing that's coming out is a Tweet here from Bobby Allen who we know from theCUBE days. I, you know, when we, I shared a Tweet about, you know, the future of the converged infrastructure on the outpost he says, software should be where tech companies differentiation value lies. This is back to our beating of the drum about software, software, software, you know. Andy Bechtolsheim, the Rembrandt of motherboards, Pat Gelsinger calls him, said, he's the founder of Arista, hardware's easy, software's hard. Software's where the action is. What Amazon's doing is essentially pushing large-scale platform capabilities and trying to make that as cheap and affordable as possible, the range of services, while creating a new shim layer around API concepts and microservices up the stack to enable people to write software faster, more compelling, more meaningful, and to iterate, and this is resonating with customers, Dave, because if I'm a business I got to write software, okay. I don't want to be in the running data center business because the data center powers the business. So the end doesn't justify the means in that regard. You say, hey, I need a data center to power my top-line revenue which is either going to be software-based or some sort of Edge network scenario, or even a human interface wearable or whatever. Software is the key. So if Amazon can continue to push the cost structure the lock-in spec is locked in because the better value so if it's going to be 80% less cost, and you call that a lock-in spec? A lot of lock-in spec, it's not like a technical lock-in spec, that's just called value. >> I'm locked in to Google Search. I mean, you know, I don't know what to tell ya. I'm not going to use any alternative search I'm just familiar with it, I like it, it's better. >> But software's the key, your thoughts. >> Okay, so, my thoughts on lock-in are, lock-in is one of the most overstated concepts in the business. I'm not saying that lock-in doesn't happen, it does happen, it happens everywhere. It happens across open-source. You do open-source you're locked-in to your developers. I've done research on this John and my research shows that 15% of the buyers really make primary decisions based on whether or not they're going to be locked-in. 85% look at the business value and they trade that off against lock-in so, you know, yeah, buyer beware, blah, blah, blah, but I think it's just really overstated. Yes, it's a Cloud, mother of all lock-ins, but what's the value that you get out of it? Speaking about another lock-in. I want to talk about Intel a little bit because the press has been like chirping about, about Intel and alternative processors, and the arm-based stuff that Amazon is doing. >> Well hold on, let's just set the table on this conversation. Intel announced a series of proprietary processors, their own silicon, you know the-- >> Amazon you mean. >> I mean Amazon, yeah, proprietary processors that are specific to certain workloads, inference engines, and other things around network-- >> Based on the Annapurna acquisition of 2015, a small Israeli-based company that they acquired. >> Yeah, so the press, I've been sharing on, oh, chips must be confronting Intel, your thoughts. >> Yeah, so here's the deal. Look it, Intel is massive and they do a huge amount of business with the Cloud players. Now, here's the thing about Intel, it's really, I've observed Intel for decades. Intel wants a level playing field amongst its customer base and so it wants a lot of different Cloud suppliers even though there's three, four, five, you know, worldwide, there's, there's many dozens, and hundreds of Cloud players out there. Intel wants to support them all. They're an arms dealer, right? They love all their customers and so, so what they do is they sprinkle around the innovation in the industry, they try to open up their architecture such that people can, you know, write software to their architecture and they try to support all their customers. We see it at all the shows. You see it at Lenovo, you see it at Dell, you see it here at AWS, you see at Google, Intel is everywhere and they are by far the biggest supplier. Now, Amazon, of course, has to have alternatives, right? They care about data-center power, you know, they do buy some stuff AMD, why not, why wouldn't you second-source some of this stuff? They do a lot of work with Invidia, ARM has its place, and so, but it's a rounding error in the grand scheme in the market. Now why people get excited is they say, okay, ARM now has a foot in the door, oh, Intel's in trouble. Intel obviously still a dominant player. I think it's, you know-- >> Is Intel in trouble? >> The press likes to glom onto that. Intel's like the dominant player in the microprocessor business and it has to move, and it has to move fast. I would not say Intel is in trouble, I'd say it continues to be the dominant player in the data center. It's got opportunities for alternative processors like Invidia. Intel strategy is to put as much function on the DI as possible and to grab that function, it's always the way it's behaved. You see people like Invidia trying to create opportunities, and doing a very good job of it, and so, there's white space there. It's competition, we love competition, right? >> Here's my, here's my. >> Intel needs some competition frankly. >> Here's my take. One, Intel pays, Amazon pays Intel a lot of money. >> Huge amount of money. >> So it's not like Intel's hurting, Intel's not in trouble. Here's why Intel's not in trouble. One, the Cloud service provider business that Raejeanne runs, she was on theCube yesterday, is growing significantly. A new total adjustable market, they call TAM expansion, is happening. >> So, you know, if you're looking at microprocessors it's not a one, or few, suppliers, it's a total TAM expansion and of course with that expansion of the market Intel's going to take a big chunk of the shares, so they are not in trouble, Amazon pays them a lot of money, they're a big-time supplier to AWS, check. Two, Intel is on a cadence on processor design that spans years. And Raejeanne and other Intel executives have spoken to us off the record, and here on theCUBE that hey, you know, sometimes there's use cases where they're not responding fast enough that are outside they're operating cycles, but as Raejeanne said, Amazon makes them get better, okay? So, they have to manage that, but there's no way Intel's in trouble. I think the press are using this as, to create link bait, for news that is sensational. But, yeah, I mean, on the surface you go, oh, chip, Intel, oh that's Intel's business, it must be bad for Intel. So, yeah, Amazon made their own processor. They got some specific things they want to build specialized processors for like GP Alternative, or inference engines that are tied to the stack, why wouldn't they? Why wouldn't they? >> What Intel will do, what Intel will do is they'll learn from that and they'll respond with functionality for maybe others, or maybe they'll earn Amazon's business, we'll see, but yield to your point, you know, Intel's exposure to the desktop and the laptop, a lot of people wrote about that, that Intel is, the (mumbles) entry is Intel's business, they're so huge, the cost of doing what they do, Intel's such a strategic supplier to so many companies and as we talked to Raejeanne about yesterday the Cloud has completely changed that dynamic and actually brought more suppliers. The data center consolidation that you've seen has been offset by the Cloud explosions, that's a good trend for Intel. And of course the mobile dynamic, you know more about that then I do, but, everybody said mobile's going to kill Intel, it obviously didn't happen. >> Look it, Intel, Intel's smart, they've been around, they're going to not miss the ball. They got a big team that services a lot of these big players. >> Are they still paranoid in your opinion? >> I think they are. >> I do too. >> I do too, I mean I, look it, Intel is, have a cadence of Moore's law. They have a execution style that's somewhat similar to AWS, they've very strict about how they execute and they have a great execution engine. So I would bet the farm that Intel's talking to Amazon and saying, what do you need for us to be better? And if Amazon does what they do best, which is tell them what they need, Intel will deliver. So I'm kind of not worried about Intel on that front. I think in the short term maybe this processor doesn't fit for that, but, that's why GPUs became popular, floating point was a unique thing that CPUs didn't do well on so a GPU comes out, there it is. And we're going to see processors like data-processing units, Pradeep Sindu, former founder of Juniper's, got a venture called, Fungible, that's building a data-processing unit. It's a dedicated chip to serve analytic workloads. These are specialized silicon chips that are going to come on faster, and, to the marketplace. So , just because there's more chips doesn't mean Intel dies 'cause if the TAM expands it's a, it's an overall bigger market so their share might not be as dominant on a smaller market, but it's-- >> You know, I got a, I got to come back to your John Chambers interview. I've watched it a couple times now and I would recommend people would go to, thecube.net, and see John Furrier's interview with John Chambers. The great companies of this industry have survived, you know, I talked about paranoia, Andy Grove, they've survived because they were not dogmatic about the past. So for the past several decades this industry has marched to the cadence of Moore's law and that was obviously very favorable to Intel. Well, that's changing, and it's changed, the innovation engine now, you've called it the innovation sandwich, which is data, machine intelligence applied to that data, in the scale of Cloud. So Intel has to pivot to that to take advantage of that and that's exactly what they're doing. So the great companies of the future, the Microsoft's, the Intel's, the AWS's, they survive because they can evolve. It's the Wang's that didn't, they denied, it was the PC-- >> They were entitled. >> The digital, right. They thought they were entitled and the point that John Chambers made is there's no entitlement and he kept referring to Boston 128, it used to be the Silicon Valley. And the leading executives today, of companies like, like Cisco, like Intel, like Microsoft, can see a vision to the future and they change when they have to change. >> So companies that are entitled, who are they (chuckling)? >> Wow, that' a really-- >> Is Oracle entitled? >> A good question. >> HPE, Dell? >> I think Oracle absolutely acts as though they're entitled and they're bunkering down into their red stack. Now, you know I've often said, don't bet against Larry Ellison, and I wouldn't make that bet against Larry Ellison, but his TAM is confined to Oracle customers. He's not currently going after, non-Oracle customers in my opinion at least not with a strategy that's obvious to me. And I think that's part of the reason why Thomas Kurian left the company is I think they had a battle about that, at least that's what my sources tell me. I haven't talked to him directly, I actually don't know him, but I know people who know him and have worked with him. HPE, I think HPE is more confused as to what the next step is. When they split the company apart they kind of gave up on software, they gave up on an integrated-supply chain. Mike Odell took the other approach, and thanks to VMware he's got a wining strategy. So, I think today's leading executives realize that they have to change. Look at Ginni Rometty, remember IBM was in trouble in my opinion because Watson failed, and their Cloud strategy essentially failed. So they just made a 34 billion dollar acquisition, a Red Hat, which is a bold move. And that, again, demonstrated a company who said, okay, hey it's not working, we have to pivot and we have to invest and go forward. >> Alright Dave, great kickoff day three. Andy Jassy coming up at the end of the day and he's going to do his annual, kind of, end of the last day roundup on theCUBE, kind of lean back, talk about what's going on and how he feels from the quotes, what people missed, what people got, and do a full review of re:Invent 2018. Day three kicks off here, CUBE, two sets on the floor gettin' all the content. We already have over a hundred videos. We'll have 500 total video assets, go to siliconangle.com and check out the blog there. A lot of stories flowing, a lot of flow, a lot of demand for the content. Stay with us for more after this short break.

>> Announcer: Live from Washington D.C., it's theCUBE covering AWS Public Sector Summit 2017. Brought to you by Amazon Web Services and its partner, Ecosystem. >> Welcome back to our nation's capitol where we continue our coverage here on theCUBE of the AWS Public Sector Summit 2017. Some 10,000 strong in attendance this week here in the Walter Washington Convention Center. It's just about a mile from the U.S. Capitol. John Walsh, this is John Furrier. John, do you feel the energy of the centerpiece of the political universe. >> It's hot here in D.C. >> It is hot. >> It's a pressure cooker, the humidity. >> But, it's not global warming we know that because, ya know, climate change is >> Climate change is not real. That's from what I heard. >> That's what we've been told. >> The problem with D.C. is it's a data lake that's turned into a data swamp. So, someone really needs to drain that data swamp. >> Well, ya know, to help us do that. You know who's going to help us do that? >> Amazon Web Services. >> Marlin McFate's going to help us do that. He is the technical leader of the Advanced Technology Group in the office of the CTO and Riverbed. And Marlin, thank you for being with us here on theCUBE. Your first time, I believe. >> Yes, it is my first time on theCUBE. >> So, you're a Cube rookie? >> Yes, Cube rookie. >> Good to have you aboard. >> I appreciate it, thanks. >> Tell us a little bit first about Riverbed, about what you do there specifically, what you do there and what the company's mission is overall. >> Absolutely, so I work for the Advanced Technology Group, the Advanced Technology Group works underneath the office of the CTO. There's actually two groups that work under the office of the CTO, my group, the Advanced Technology Group and another one called the Strategic Technology Group. The ATT Group, the one that I belong to, we focus on being the subject matter experts of our products. I think there's about nine of us now and we all focus on different products. Riverbed's grown from a company of being just the WAN Optimization Company to really being the performance company, right, whether that be visibility, whether it be optimization, whether it be network optimization. Each one of us focuses on a different piece. I, predominantly focus on our WAN optimization, our SteelConnect product and at times our SteelFusion project, which is the combined Edge product. >> SteelConnect, yeah, tell us what that's all about. >> SteelConnect, SteelConnect is not actually our most recent product to come to market. We have a couple of visibility products that have come out recently, but SteelConnect addresses the idea that we have been doing networking for the same way say, you know, 1993 beyond, right. We are still doing it the same way. Everything within our industry, whether you take a look at virtualization, whether you take a look at Cloud, whether or not you take a look at storage, everything has changed substantially in how we do it and this brings that change to networking. The idea is that when you think about servers you say, I no longer want to think about you know, hardware. I never want to think about that. I never want to think about resources. Maybe I don't even want to worry about operating systems. I only want to worry about containers, right. Now, when it comes to networking I don't necessarily want to have to worry about each individual piece within my network. I want it to be orchestrated and controlled centrally and what I tell it to do, I want it to do. I shouldn't have to do that. >> You missed a challenged. We heard Vernon Vogel on stage here at Amazon a couple of seconds ago say, I'm here in D.C. say hey, it's a new normal. We had another entrepreneur on just before you from FUGE who said, hey, it's inevitably the world of the future and it's inherently different, or intrinsically different in Cloud than it is on premise with enterprises, so the question for you is, what is the use case that you guys are winning at because the Cloud is impacting federal government and public sector, but a lot of times they have old, antiquated systems like back in 1993, '94. So, they're moving fast to commercialize, to modernize, that's the focus. How do you guys help them? What's the big lynch pen for you guys and that goal mission to the customer? >> Alright, so you're absolutely right. The government has been here, or the government or public sector as a whole has been moving to the Cloud quite quickly here recently, right. We've seen this move more on the commercial side first, obviously, and now in the public sector. One of the very large use cases that we address is the ability to provision for your applications, right. Some of the characteristics that you find in commercial world, such as, I want to use internet as transport. You don't see as much in public sector. But, you do see, I can spin up an application in the Cloud. If you go to your Cloud person and say, how would it take me to get application B, they could possibly come back to you and say, well, would this afternoon be okay, right. Can you provision in hours like that? Can you get the policy in place for users? Could you get the connectivity? Could you get any of that in place in the same amount of time? That is a use case that SD WAN addresses without having to rip up, take out the network that you already have, which is the physical network, or what we refer to as the underlay. Being able to give you that flexibility on top of that network. >> The big thing that customers have a challenge on is that other focus it's DebOps trend programmable infrastructure is another one, so that they want to make it programmable. >> Right. >> So, how do you guys fit into that? Because one of the things that we hear is, could I have develop 'cause all I want to do is have infrastructure just works as code. That's all I need for whatever use case. >> Yeah, we usually see that DebOps is actually one that'll probably be the first movers to the Cloud for the public sector, right. With our, really it's every single one of our products, whether or not we're talking about SteelConnect, SteelHead, SteelEssential, any one of them, there's a RESTful API for every single one of them. So, you can actually go in and utilizing a very easy scripting a RESTful API directly itself and spin up whole environments and then spin them down if you wanted to do that. So, it fits very, very nicely into that DebOps world. >> Do you have SteelEdge yet? >> SteelEdge? >> Copyright on theCUBE. >> It might be a razor company that might have that. I don't know. >> Well, the Edge in the network is huge and this is where we're talking about as you guys do it, you know SD WAN, I mean, come on, why the area networks? You don't beat, you can't get any more edgier than that. You guys have a core competency in this. How do you guys look at the Edge and IOT and all these use cases popping around? >> Well, we do actually have a product that has Edge in it, it was SteelFusion Edge. We could address that in a couple of different ways. I want to make sure that I understood your question, though. Your question was around IOT, specifically? >> Well, how do you guys look at the Edge? The trends right now are super hyped up right now, Intelligent Edge is a big message we're hearing from others. IOT is an Edge application with its Industrial Edge with Genery Censor networks, help with safety, surveillance, all this is Edge devices. >> It still ends up in the end being you know, and that has, we've heard the change from people calling it Branch to calling it Edge, which is probably pretty appropo, right. But, really in the end, what it comes down to is connectivity, right. So, if I have IOT sensors in a warehouse, whether or not I have an application, whether or not I have a group of users, whether or not I have mobile users, in the end what it really comes down to is connectivity. And, we all especially with our cell phones, right, we have come pretty much to the point where we expect our data and our connectivity to be there at all times, right. That's one of the things SD WAN addresses. Whether it be our direct, our SD WAN products, SteelConnect, or whether or not it has works with some of the pieces that move further into the LAN architectural, like our wireless access points, our switching, right. So, you can imagine here, right, I can provide policy for my IOT devices. I can provide that policy one time at an organizational or agency level. I can have that policy filter down, all the way down to the axis point and now the axis point might be my axis point to my IOT or to my user. So, in the end, it still comes to connectivity. >> Marlin, what's some of the use cases or scenarios you've been involved with customers where it's been super exciting from an architectural standpoint, where you guys are doing some cutting edge things. Like, is it more the network size? Is it software? Is it Edge. I mean, I'm tryin' to get a sense of, could you share a personal perspective? >> Absolutely so. One of the ones that we're working on right now I think is probably the most exciting. It is combining some aspects, you could call it an FE. You could call it SD WAN. You could call it Grey Box. What I like to call it is just a combined Edge piece, right, which encompasses both the SteelConnect piece which handles your firewall characteristics, your identity management characteristics, built into that some switching, virtualization, so you can run other products on there. What the customer really wanted to end up doing was they had school systems that, a school system that was in a very far away place and that school system, they were putting in a router, a switch, an access point, you know, all these different little pieces and devices, right. What we did was we were able to take that design and crunch it down into basically one box, right. They have enough switchboards. They have the ability to run virtual machines 'cause they said that they had a server here or there. They have their virtualized SteelConnect gateway which gives them the firewall capability, gives them the routing capability and this is all combined in a box that already has the WAN Optimization built in. So, they get everything that they would have had onsite in one box. >> Is there something to working, you bring up education as an example, but in that space overall in the .gov, the .edu space that's separate and aside from commercial partners or commercial relationships like different concerns, different priorities and yet they're using the same technologies. >> Most certainly. The only thing that I could really say from a using technology, right, I mean there are some pockets where different technology, far off weird technologies is utilized. But, I would say that they are the public sector, schools, federal government, intel, they're all using a lot of the same technology, right. It's when they adopt it. When did they bring it into their environment? And then, what are the special characteristics of their environment? So for example, what I said earlier, right, your commercial customers are looking at utilizing SD WAN to move maybe completely off of MPLS. It's probably not something that we're going to see within the public sector, right. They're want to still use some sort of private networking. I do have some customers that are utilizing public internet, but then, they are tunneling an overlay back to an MPLS entry point to get back into their Cloud. We just have interesting requirements. Whether that be a trusted internet connection, whether or not that'd be JRSS, we have different security requirements in the public sector. >> Well, I love some of what you're doin'. Did you get all of that MPLS stuff there? >> Yeah, I got the first four. >> I want to jump in and double down on that. This is interesting conversation because the whole trend right now is hybrid Cloud on the Enterprise side which is a leading indicator to the government, a little bit lagging on that, so whatever that translates to in terms of Hybrid or Legacy, it's going to be somewhat similar, I believe. But, really multi-Cloud is a trend that people are talking about. It's super hyped up but it's not yet real. The thing that's holding multi-Cloud back not multi-Cloud in the sense I got to workload over hear and a workload over there, I'm talking about moving resources around the network, data, compute, what not, is latency, huge problem. You mentioned MPLS and all this tunneling, there's still the latency problem of how do you get the laws of physics down to the point where you can actually have those kinds of latencies? What is Riverbed doing? Can you share some insights to that direction 'cause that's the holy grail right now. That's the last hurdle. Then, well getting all the silicons is still the final hurdle, but latency's critical. >> So, problem number one there, right. Even if it is Cloud to Cloud in that example, right, is first how do I get a WAN Optimization device, something that can optimize that traffic for me. Something that can affect my latency for me into that environment. Riverbed has worked tirelessly to get that in there right. But, to your point, you can't change how an electron flies, right. The speed of light is the speed of light. You're not going to get an electron to move any faster. So, what Riverbed developed that's still very relevant today is the ability to, instead of change your latency, mitigate the negative affects of your latency, right. So, if I. >> Or work around it. >> Absolutely, and you can do that at the application level, absolutely, program around it, but there are a lot of protocols out there that aren't necessarily optimized for that longer latency environment, right. So, what we do is, or the adage is, the trip never taken, right, the shortest trip. So, if I have to, not to get into the weeds or anything like that, but if I have to make a thousand round trips to accomplish something, right, and I could put something in there that understands what I was getting, right, that data that I was getting each one of those times and I can take less trips, well then, that just made that faster. So, if I have a thousand round trips and it takes a minute to do, and now I can do ten round trips and it only took ten seconds, or six seconds if we're doing the math right. >> It's kind of like here in D.C., you're local. I noticed that coming from Dulles Airport they have Sirius pricing on the toll roads. That's basically private networking right there. >> That's right. >> These cost path routing opposed to the other side. I was in the, you know. >> Marlin was more describing my trips to the hardware store on the weekends, a thousand round trips, be a lot more economical. But you're right, it is private networking. >> If you're off the road, you're off the packets aren't on the network it saves some room for someone else. >> More traffic, you hear more traffic at the higher speeds. >> You actually could. So, you get two benefits. One is the increase of speed, but the other is the perceived capacity increase of your network. And, we accomplish these things through compression which is really, really simple. I think compression is a must, right. But, through our data duplication. Data duplication is I've seen these patterns before and it's a byte level. We're not talking about an object. I haven't seen a file. No, I've seen these byte level patterns before, I don't need to resend them. And, in traditional network or traditional applications you see pretty much in any organization, right, you typically can get somewhere between 50 and 80, if not sometimes 90% reduction total in traffic. >> My final question before we wrap up this segment here is, Share with the folks, take a minute to talk to the audience about what you're doing with Riverbed at the show and what they should know about the current Riverbed. I know you've guys trying a transformation of yourselves, give a quick plug. Go ahead. >> Absolutely. So, what we're specifically doing here or one of the pieces that is a differentiator for us and our SD WAN is, we went ahead and we thought why couldn't we make that an AWSPPC or a Cloud instance one of my Edge sites, right, connecting into the Cloud, there's many different ways to do it, but why couldn't we make a very simple way of doing that? Why couldn't I take the technology that I'm already putting in place at my data centers, I'm already putting in place at my branch offices, why can't I utilize that to create a secure connection into my BBCs. And, to your point, actually earlier one of the things that's also interesting was Cloud to Cloud. Why couldn't I take that same technology and connect multiple Clouds? Whether they be private Cloud or two public Clouds or connect them all together and take the best of all worlds, right, the best from each and make the best infrastructure that I possibly can. So, what we're showing off here from a SteelConnect perspective is our ability to do that. I can take an AWSVPC, actually I can take all, I think there's 16 regions within AWS and I can interconnect them in less than 10 minutes with the click of a button. And, then back into my infrastructure. So, that and then we also have brought Eternity, which is one of our visibility products that is basically rounded out on our visibility play within the market. We have the network. We have the app. We have the database. Now, we have the end users computer. >> Alright, well, if you could interconnect me to my home in 10 minutes I'm a client. I'd be sold, I'd be all over it. >> I'm going to be in the same traffic as you later. >> I'm not that far from here, but it might as well be another day. Marlin, thanks for the time. >> Absolutely, my pleasure. >> Good to have you on theCUBE, alright. >> Thanks, hope we get to do it again. >> Riverbed has joined us here on theCUBE. We'll be live with more from Washington D.C. right after this.