(lively brass music) >> Narrator: Live from New Orleans, Louisiana. It's the Cube covering .NEXTconference 2018. Brought to you by Nutanix. >> So, you're watching the Cube and there's 55 hundred in attendance, here at the Nutanix .NEXTconference. Getting ready for a big party this evening at Mardi Gras world, get a flavor for the local cuisine and one of the things we always love at the show is, really, being able to dig in with the practitioners. Happy to welcome to the program, first, my guest Mike Spencer, vice president of hosting and managed services at ICF Olson, thanks so much for joining us. >> Well thank you very much for having me. It's been a great event, so far. Very inspiring keynote speech this morning. >> Awesome, so Mike. First of all, it's your first time here at .NEXT, tell us what brought you here and a little bit of background of yourself and your organization. >> Yep, so one of the reasons why we came here is my team is up for an award. We've been a user of the Nutanix platform for about three and a half years and it's done a lot to help us in our position in the marketplace, and so part of this is giving a little bit back, and some of it's, you know, coming to hear about what's next, so. >> So actually, could you tell us, what does this award mean to you, your team, and everything like, some people, like there's vendor awards, there's show awards, and like what's that like? >> Well, you know, I think my team is really excited to have some sort of external validation that, you know, the last three and a half or four years that we've been working towards this, you know, journey towards dev ops and infrastructures code, that somebody externally is starting to recognize that what we've done is great, and appreciating that work, so. >> Alright, so Kieth and I, I think are, you know, excited to dig in, we hear things like dev ops and infrastructures code. Something we've been documenting and talked to a lot of customers about, kind of digital transformation. Can you tell a little bit of the story? Bring us back. What was the challenge? What'd your organization look like and walk us through what you did. >> Yeah, so I think initially, very traditional IT team. Really managing things on a per-server basis, on a per-client basis and really needing that guy there to click next or to pay attention to a server. Really kind of that old adage of treating all of our servers like a pet versus more like cattle, which is where we are today and the efficiency around it. So we had some issues around stability, performance, availability, those types of things that really drove us to take a different look at the way we were doing things and so that's kind of what kicked us off on the journey to start looking at, how do we totally rethink this whole space and bring innovation in, in a space that historically doesn't have a ton of innovation. >> So let's talk about the innovation because, you know, the whole thing, whole thing services, you buy commodity hardware as cheap as possible, let it run as long as possible. When I think of Nutanix, I don't think commodity. Help bring the story together for us. >> Yep, so, you know, as architecturally, as we looked at everything we were doing, one of the unique things that we did is we decided to look at our infrastructure as more of a service-based architecture, which is very much more of a software development look at the world, versus an infrastructure look and some of the key tenants in that space are around driving for simplicity in your environment, and the Nutanix platform helped us eliminate a lot of the specialties that we needed in our area, right? So we are very much a commodity type person when it comes to servers, right? The name on the front of the server wasn't really important but what was really important for us and what Nutanix brought to the table was, they merged together all of the pieces in the server part of the stack down to the network stack. We no longer had to deal with things like storage. I didn't need to have SMEs on staff that were specialists in that space. It helped to simplify our networks. It helped us manage things through a single pane of glass, right? And we did it all in a very cost effective way. For us, it really helped us take that 25% of our labor in that space and refocus about 25% of it into really driving forward with the infrastructures code and dev ops methodologies. >> Mike, what does this mean for your business? Funny, I look at your website. It's a customer experience agency built to help you through this digital transformation. It's like, wow, it's what we're talking about at this kind of show. What does that mean to your company and, you know, your end users? >> So ICF Olson is the marketing services wing of ICF, our parent company, which is a large consulting wing but from a customer experience agency standpoint, we span everywhere from PR, brand, all the way down the stack, including managed services and hosting. A lot of our clients say, hey, you know what, you guys are really good at designing this. Why don't you guys go and run it for us? And so that's really where my art comes into place, is not just the hosting of something but also the running of something and working with the clients. It allowed us to become more of an end to end agency, right? It allowed our clients to focus on things more important like, you know, how they were going to change their brand, how they were going to look at the market, how they were going to advertise. And so from a business perspective, itself, one of the things that it did is it helped enable, you know, frankly we want a lot more business, right? Because we were willing to take these things on. We were able to repeat those types of things with a high level of success, so. >> How do you measure success? >> Success is... In our space, in particular? Honestly it is our clients not having to interact with us. (laughing) Right? We're not the sexy part of the digital ecosystem. (laughing) >> Modernization of data center is a critical piece of it. Clients are looking to you to basically make that invisible. The data center should be just something that they consume. As Nutanix has moved, you've been a customer for three years and Nutanix has moved from a hardware, software appliance, where they're selling you the entire platform to software only solution, how has, what has that meant to your business? >> Well, I mean, it's allowed us to take our focus off being experts in the hardware space. Again, something that didn't necessarily bring value, even in our private cloud. We do manage both public and private cloud but our private cloud space, it allowed us to not have to focus on the energy there and really allowed our infrastructure team to become more of a software development team. So that's been a big, big win for us. >> Talk to us a little bit about the organizational dynamics, rolling out dev ops. What did that mean for your team? You say things are invisible now. Was there a adjustment in head count, or roles, or retraining that you can share? >> Yes to all of that. In its simplest form, yeah. So a lot of people look at the implementation of dev ops being something that's kind of done to an infrastructure team. Right, it's designed to make an infrastructure team look more like a software development team or work more fluidly with a software development team and I think those things are all true but it also helped us transform our overall SDLC for software development. There's a lot of things. As we continue to build skill and trade out skill, right, continue to move up the stack, we basically became middleware developers, to where, now, our software developers for our core products and things that we sell for our clients, and support for our clients, those developers are now working on purely code and the aesthetics of things, the UX side of it. Where we are much more managing the middleware component, which interacts nicely with the hyper-converged platform. Right, Nutanix. There was a shift in labor, without a doubt. As you mature through the process you do a lot of investment in people. Right, making sure that they're kind of keeping up with the times, understanding the new methodologies. Huge shifts from the methodologies that a traditional IT team would use to what a software development team uses, right? It wasn't only moving an infrastructure team into that methodology, it was also getting the business and the software development team we work with used to us working more like them versus more like the old IT team. And so honestly, we probably caught the software development team more off guard than we did ourselves, so. (laughing) >> There's another side of that coin. As you develop that skill, as you develop that capability, retention becomes a problem. There's a natural headcount where, you know what, you don't need as many people to come in at midnight to do firmware revisions, do the low level work, but as they skill up, you look around, you know, you look at what happens in the rest of the dev ops movements, where you have entire teams leaving the fortune 500s to go to another fortune 500 to implement their dev ops. How do you encourage your team to stay? >> So to me, it's all about culture, right? Our team can work remote. They all choose to be in the office, right? They enjoy each other. It's also investing in people and investing in their growth. So it's not always about, necessarily, the size of a paycheck. It's also about work-life balance, the willingness of the organization to invest in their people, and giving them time to innovate. I mean, when you talk to the majority of infrastructure guys or even technology guys out there, what drives them every day is not necessarily their paycheck. That's a side effect of the good work they do. It's really the challenge, the pure problem solving of IT. We give them that opportunity to be able to innovate. >> Tell us a little bit about your Nutanix solution that you have, what you started with, how much you grew, what's not on your Nutanix today? >> So private cloud, we are 100% Nutanix today. We started with a four node environment that was, really, purpose built around our analytics platforms. We were looking for some way to isolate IOPS from our production environment. More of a standard, three tier architecture (clearing throat) and we did some research out there, this is at the same time that we're rethinking the architecture of everything, really kind of looking at the way we do business, and we came across several vendors, one of them being Nutanix. It was a very young company, fairly unproven, in at least our market, but their message was exactly the same message that we had developed and so we decided to take a chance on them. We put them in. You know, we did some load testing between that platform and our traditional platform and were very pleasantly surprised to find what we found. Almost a three X increase in disc IOPS and so we went live with this analytics platform, and really did a lot of testing there, right? And then we kind of started the natural process after we got comfortable with it for about six months of hey, why don't we start working through the life cycle process and bring through, bringing in Nutanix to offset? Instead of buying, you know, a storage shelf, right? I can go get a Nutanix cluster that has the same amount of storage but also brings compute with it. (clearing throat) So once we started doing that, we started putting production workloads onto the Nutanix platform and seeing great results. We expedited our journey. Within about a year and a half, we had replaced all of our traditional stand and compute plaforms. So the infrastructure guys, once they saw it in action, once the business saw the results, even the financial side of it, (laughing) you know, we were almost asked to expedite the process of moving towards Nutanix. Which, for us, it was great because it was less to manage. >> So as you guys moved to the Nutanix infrastructure, talk about the more advanced services that they've offered over the past few years. Specifically, the hypervisor, haven't you guys embraced AHV? >> So we have in dev. We are not running it as our primary hypervisor right now. In our architecture, we run VMware today. I'm not probably supposed to say that here but we run VMware. We have been looking at Acropolis. Really, the way we look at the hypervisor is as a component in our service space architecture. We are in a position where we can replace that because it's not an important part to us. We just haven't had the cycles in our roadmap to be able to put towards the replacement of VMware, yet. But it is certainly something on our roadmap and something we're marching towards because the APIs have continued to evolve on the Nutanix platform, we work quite closely with Nutanix on that. They seem to accommodate a lot of our asks but, yeah, it really has been more of a time thing, you know? There's so many things to code in this space, right now. >> You've got the award but what were you looking to really accomplish this week? Are there sessions you're looking for, are there products you're looking to dig into for you and your team? >> A lot of it was about vision, right? How well does the Nutanix vision align with our vision? And, like I said, from the keynote speeches this morning and some of the new services we see coming out, I think they're doing a great job. Their head is where our head is. They're headed the same direction we are. You know, in a lot of places where we're doing custom development, we can actually go in and say, hey, why don't we acquire this? You know, one of the exciting announcements this morning was around Beam. The ability to do compliance across our cloud platforms. We run today about 50% public cloud, 50% private cloud just depending on what the solution is we're providing, so it gives us that one pane of glass. >> What public clouds are you using and how does that, kind of the hybrid, hybrid world that Nutanix laid out this morning fit into your vision? >> Well, so. The right answer for me should be it shouldn't matter what cloud I'm running. But we are running Azure as well as AWS, just depending on the solution. So we have partnerships on both sides. But we don't necessarily look at them as being a long running relationship because, you know, this is a very, this space is changing at a very rapid pace. You know, who knows who the next person is that's going to stand up that we need to support. So we're very platform-agnostic when you look at it. When we deploy something, it really doesn't matter if it's on private cloud, public cloud, doesn't really matter. To us, it's just all building blocks that we plug in together and let code do its job. So, in that model, you guys do 50% public, 50% private. Nutanix has an opinionated view of cloud. How does that impact your business and services? >> Nutanix's approach? >> Yeah they're vision versus the...? >> Yeah, well I think their vision's great, right? Because it is a fairly agnostic vision. With them being, obviously, wanting the private cloud side of that but understanding that there is no 100%, you know, private cloud and 100% public cloud in today's world. It is all hybrid cloud environment and that certain workloads are better on prim, and certain workloads are better in the public cloud. I think that was in total alignment with everything we do. Our primary job is web hosting. So we deal with geographic workloads all the time. >> Well, Mike Spencer. I wish best of luck to the ICF Olson team. >> Yeah, thank you very much for having me. >> On the award this afternoon. You're a big winner in our books either way. Kieth Townsend, I'm Stuart Miniman. Thanks so much for watching the Cube. We'll be back with lots more. (electronic music)

(bright upbeat music) >> Hello, and welcome back to the DockerCon 2021 virtual coverage. I'm John Furrie host of theCUBE here in Palo Alto with a remote interview with a great guest Cuban alumni, Jim Walker VP of Product Marketing at Cockroach Labs. Jim, great to see you remotely coming into theCUBE normally we're in person, soon we'll be back in real life. Great to see you. >> Great to see you as well John, I miss you. I miss senior live and in person. So this has got to do, I guess right? >> We we had the first multi-cloud event in New York city. You guys had was I think one of the last events that was going on towards the end of the year before the pandemic hit. So a lot's happened with Cockroach Labs over the past few years, accelerated growth, funding, amazing stuff here at DockerCon containerization of the world, containers everywhere and all places hybrid, pure cloud, edge everywhere. Give us the update what's going on with Cockroach Labs and then we'll get into what's going on at DockerCon. >> Yeah Cockroach Labs, this has been a pretty fun ride. I mean, I think about two and a half years now and John it's been phenomenal as the world kind of wakes up to a distributed systems and the containerization of everything. I'm happy we're at DockerCon talking about containerization 'cause I think it has radically changed the way we think about software, but more importantly it's starting to take hold. I think a lot of people would say, oh, it's already taken hold but if you start to think about like just, these kind of modern applications that are depending on data and what does containerization mean for the database? Well, Cockroach has got a pretty good story. I mean, gosh, before Escape I think the last time I talked to you, I was at CoreOS and we were playing the whole Kubernetes game and I remember Alex Povi talking about GIFEE Google infrastructure for everyone or for everyone else I should say. And I think that's what we've seen that kind of happened with the infrastructure layer but I think that last layer of infrastructure is the database. Like I really feel like the database is that dividing line between the business logic and infrastructure. And it's really exciting to see, just massive huge customers come to Cockroach to rethink what the database means in cloud, right? What does the database mean when we moved to distributed systems and that sort of thing, and so, momentum has been building here, we are, upwards of, oh gosh, over 300 paying customers now, thousands of Cockroach customers in the wild out there but we're seeing this huge massive attraction to CockroachCloud which is a great name. Come on, Johnny, you got to say, right? And our database as a service. So getting that out there and seeing the uptake there has just been, it's been phenomenal over the past couple of years. >> Yeah and you've got to love the Cockroach name, love it, survive nuclear war and winter all that good stuff as they say, but really the reality is that it's kind of an interesting play on words because one of the trends that we've been talking about, I mean, you and I've been telling this for years with our CUBE coverage around Amazon Web Services early on was very clear about a decade ago that there wasn't going to be one database to rule the world. They're going to many, many databases. And as you started getting into these cloud native deployments at scale, use your database of choice was the developer ethos just whatever it takes to get the job done. Now you start integrating this in a horizontally scalable way with the cloud, you have now new kinds of scale, cloud scale. And it kind of changed the game on the always on availability question which is how do I get high availability? How do I keep things running? And that is the number one developer challenge whether it's infrastructure as code, whether it's security shifting left, it all comes down to making sure stuff's running at scale and secure. Talk about that. >> Yeah, absolutely and it's interesting it's been, like I said, this journey in this arc towards distributed systems and truly like delivery of what people want in the cloud, it's been a long arc and it's been a long journey and I think we're getting to the point where people, they are starting to kind of bake resilience and scale into their applications and I think that's kind of this modern approach. Look we're taking legacy databases today. There are people are kind of lift and shift, move them into the cloud, try to run them there but they aren't just built for that infrastructure like the there's a fundamentally different approach and infrastructure when it talks, when you talk about cloud it's one of the reasons why John early on your conversations with the AWS Team and what they did, it's like, yeah, how do we give resilient and ubiquitous and always on scalable kind of infrastructure people. Well, that's great for those layers but when you start to get into the software that's running on these things, it isn't lift and shift and it's not even move and improve. You can't like just take a legacy system and change one piece of it to make it kind of take advantage of the scale and the resilience and the ubiquity of the cloud, because there's very very explicit challenges. For us, it's about re-architect and rebuild. Let's tear the database down and let's rethink it and build from the ground up to be cloud native. And I think the technologies that have done that, that have kind of built from scratch, to be cloud native are the ones that are I believe, three years from now that's what we're going to be talking about. I mean, this comes back to again, like the Genesis of what we did is Google Cloud Spanner. Spanner white paper and what Google did, they didn't build, they didn't use an existing database because they needed something for a transactional relational database. They hire a bunch of really incredible engineers, right? And I got like Jeff Dean and Sanjay Ghemawat over there, like designing and doing all these cool things, they build and I think that's what we're seeing and I think that's, to me the exciting part about data in the cloud as we move forward. >> Yeah, and I think the Google cloud infrastructure, everyone I think that's the same mindset for Amazon is that I want all the scale, but I don't want to do it like over 10 years I to do it now, which I love I want to get back to in a second, but I want to ask you specifically this definition of containerization of the database. I've heard that kicked around, love the concept. I kind of understand what it means but I want you to define it for us. What does it mean when someone says containerizing the database? >> Yeah, I mean, simply put the database in container and run it and that's all that I can think that's like, maybe step one I think that's kind of lift and shift. Let's put it in a container and run it somewhere. And that's not that hard to do. I think I could do that. I mean, I haven't coded in a long time but I think I could figure that out. It's when you start to actually have multiple instances of a container, right? And that's where things get really, really tricky. Now we're talking about true distributed systems. We're talking about how do you coordinate data? How do you balance data across multiple instances of a database, right? How do you actually have fail over so that if one node goes down, a bunch of them are still available. How do you guarantee transactional consistency? You can't just have four instances of a database, all with the same information in it John without any sort of coordination, right? Like you hit one node and you hit another one in the same account which transaction wins. And so the concepts in distributed systems around there's this thing called the cap theorem, there's consistency, availability, and partition tolerance and actually understanding how these things work especially for data in distributed systems, to make sure that it's going to be consistent and available and you're going to scale those things are not simple to solve. And again, it comes back to this. I don't think you can do it with legacy database. You kind of have to re-architect and it comes down to where data is stored, it comes down to how it's replicated, it comes down to really ultimately where it's physically located. I think when you deploy a database you think about the logical model, right? You think about tables, and normalization and referential integrity. The physical location is extremely important as we kind of moved to that kind of containerized and distributed systems, especially around data. >> Well, you guys are here at DockerCon 2021 Cockroach Labs good success, love the architectural flexibility that you guys offer. And again, bringing that scale, like you mentioned it's awesome value proposition, especially if people want to just program the infrastructure. What's going on with with DockerCon specifically a lot of talk about developer productivity, a lot of talk about collaboration and trust with containers, big story around security. What's your angle here at DockerCon this year? What's the big reveal? What's the discussion? What's the top conversation? >> Yeah, I mean look at where we are a containerized database and we are an incredibly great choice for developers. For us, it's look at there's certain developer communities that are important on this planet, John, and this is one of them, right? This is I don't know a developer doesn't have that little whale up in their status bar, right? And for us, you know me man, I believe in this tech and I believe that this is something that's driven and greatly simplify our lives over the next two to three to 10 to 15 years. And for us, it's about awareness. And I think once people see Cockroach, they're like oh my God, how did I ever even think differently? And so for us, it's kind of moving in that direction. But ultimately our vision where we want to be, is we want to abstract the database to a SQL API in the cloud. We want to make it so simple that I just have this rest interface, there's end points all over the planet. And as a developer, I never have to worry about scale. I never have to worry about DR right? It's always going to be on. And most importantly, I don't have to worry about low latency access to data no matter where I'm at on the planet, right? I can give every user this kind of sub 50 millisecond access to data or sub 20 millisecond access to data. And that is the true delivery of the cloud, right? Like I think that's what the developer wants out of the cloud. They want to code against a service like, and it's got to be consumption-based and you secure and I don't want to have to pay for stuff I'm not using and that all those things. And so, for us, that's what we're building to, and interacting in this environment is critical for us because I think that's where audiences. >> I want to get your thoughts on you guys do have success with a couple of different personas and developers out there, groups, classic developers, software developers which is this show is that DockerCon full of developers KubeCon a lot of operators cool, and some dads, but mostly cloud native operations. Here's a developer shops. So you guys got to hit the developers which really care about building fast and building the scale and last with security. Architects you had success with, which is the classic, cloud architecture, which now distributed computing, we get that. But the third area I would call the kind of the role that both the architects and the developers had to take on which is being the DevOps person or then becomes the SRE in the group, right? So most startups have the DevOps team developers. They do DevOps natively and within every role. So they're the same people provisioning. But as you get larger and an enterprise, the DevOps role, whether it's in a team or group takes on this SRE site reliability engineer. This is a new dynamic that brings engineering and coding together. It's like not so much an ops person. It's much more of like an engineering developer. Why is that role so important? And we're seeing more of it in dev teams, right? Seeing an SRE person or a DevOps person inside teams, not a department. >> Yeah, look, John, we, yeah, I mean, we employ an army of SREs that manage and maintain our CockroachCloud, which is CockroachDB as a service, right? How do you deliver kind of a world-class experience for somebody to adopt a managed service a database such as ours, right? And so for us, yeah I mean, SREs are extremely important. So we have personal kind of an opinion on this but more importantly, I think, look at if you look at Cockroach and the architecture of what we built, I think Kelsey Hightower at one point said, I am going to probably mess this up but there was a tweet that he wrote. It's something like, CockroachDB is the Spanner as Kubernetes is the board. And if you think about that, I mean that's exactly what this is and we built a database that was actually amenable to the SRE, right? This is exactly what they want. They want it to scale up and down. They want it to just survive things. They want to be able to script this thing and basically script the world. They want to actually, that's how they want to manage and maintain. And so for us, I think our initial audience was definitely architects and operators and it's theCUBE con crowd and they're like, wow, this is cool. This is architected just like Kubernetes. In fact, like at etcd, which is a key piece of Kubernetes but we contribute back up to NCD our raft implementation. So there's a lot of the same tech here. What we've realized though John, with database is interesting. The architect is choosing a database sometimes but more often than not, a developer is choosing that database. And it's like they go out, they find a database, they just start building and that's what happens. So, for us, we made a very critical decision early on, this database is wire compatible with Postgres and it speaks to SQL syntax which if you look at some of the other solutions that are trying to do these things, those things are really difficult to do at the end. So like a critical decision to make sure that it's amenable so that now we can build the ORMs and all the tools that people would use and expect that of Postgres from a developer point of view, but let's simplify and automate and give the right kind of like the platform that the SREs need as well. And so for us the last year and a half is really about how do we actually build the right tooling for the developer crowd too. And we've really pushed really far in that world as well. >> Talk about the aspect of the scale of like, say startup for instance, 'cause you made this a great example borg to Kubernetes 'cause borg was Google's internal Kubernetes, like thing. So you guys have Spanner which everyone knows is a great product at Google had. You guys with almost the commercial version of that for the world. Is there, I mean, some people will say and I'll just want to challenge you on this and we'll get your thoughts. I'm not Google, I'll never be Google, I don't need that scale. Or so how do you address that point because some people say, well this might dismiss the notion of using it. How do you respond to that? >> Yeah, John, we get this all the time. Like, I'm not global. My application's not global. I don't need this. I don't need a tank, right? I just need, like, I just need to walk down the road. You know what I mean? And so, the funny thing is, even if you're in a single region and you're building a simple application, does it need to be always on does it need to be available. Can it survive the failure of a server or a rack or an AZ it doesn't have to survive the failure of a region but I tell you what, if you're successful, you're going to want to start actually deploying this thing across multiple regions. So you can survive a backhoe hit in a cable and the entire east coast going out, right? Like, and so with Cockroach, it's real easy to do that. So it's four little SQL commands and I have a database that's going to span all those regions, right? And I think that's important but more importantly, think about scale, when a developer wants to scale, typically it's like, okay, I'm going to spin up Postgres and I'm going to keep increasing my instance size. So I'm going to scale vertically until I run out of room. And then I'm going to have to start sharding this database. And when you start doing that, it adds this kind of application complexity that nobody really wants to deal with. And so forget it, just let the database deal with all that. So we find this thing extremely useful for the single developer in a very small application but the beauty thing is, if you want to go global, great just keep that in notes. Like when that application does take off and it's the next breakthrough thing, this database going to grow with you. So it's good enough to kind of start small but it's the scale fast, it'll go global if you want to, you have that option, I guess, right? >> I mean, why wouldn't you want optionality on this at all? So clearly a good point. Let me ask you a question, take me through a use case where with Cockroach, some scenario develops nicely, you can point to the visibility of the use case for the developer and then kind of how it played out and then compare that and contrast that to a scenario that doesn't go well, like where where we're at plays out well, for an example, and then if they didn't deploy it they got hung up and went sideways. >> Yeah like Cockroach was built for transactional workloads. That that's what we are like, we are optimized for the speed of light and consistent transactions. That's what we do, and we do it very well. At least I think so, right. But I think, like my favorite customer of all of ours is DoorDash and about a year ago DoorDash came to us and said, look at we have a transactional database that can't handle the right volume that we're getting and falls over. And they they'd significant challenges and if you think about DoorDash and DoorDash is business they're looking at an IPO in the summer and going through these, you can't have any issues. So like system's got to be up and running, right? And so for them, it was like we need something that's reliable. We need something that's not going to come down. We need something that's going to scale and handle burst and these sort of things and their business is big, their businesses not just let me deliver food all the time. It's deliver anything, like be that intermediary between a good and somebody's front door. That's what DoorDash wants to be. And for us, yeah, their transactions and that backend transactional system is built on Cockroach. And that's one year ago, they needed to get experienced. And once they did, they started to see that this was like very, very valuable and lots of different workloads they had. So anywhere there's any sort of transactional workload be it metadata, be it any sort of like inventory, or transaction stuff that we see in companies, that's where people are coming to us. And it's these traditional relational workloads that have been wrapped up in these transactional relational databases what built for the cloud. So I think what you're seeing is that's the other shoe to drop. We've seen this happen, you're watching Databricks, you're watching Snowflake kind of do this whole data cloud and then the analytical side John that's been around for a long time and there's that move to the cloud. That same thing that happened for OLAP, is got to happen for OLTP. Where we don't do well is when somebody thinks that we're an analytic database. That's not what we're built for, right? We're optimized for transactions and I think you're going to continue to see these two sides of the world, especially in cloud especially because I think that the way that our global systems are going to work you don't want to do analytics across multiple regions, it doesn't make sense, right? And so that's why you're going to see this, the continued kind of two markets OLAP and OLTP going on and we're just, we're squaring that OLTP side of the world. >> Yeah talking about the transaction processing side of it when you start to change a distributed architecture that goes from core edge, core on premises to edge. Edge being intelligent edge, industrial edge, whatever you're going to have more action happening. And you're seeing, Kubernetes already kind of talking about this and with the containers you got, so you've got kind of two dynamics. How does that change the nature of, and the level of volume of transactions? >> Well, it's interesting, John. I mean, if you look at something like Kubernetes it's still really difficult to do multi-region or multicloud Kubernetes, right? This is one of those things that like you start to move Kubernetes to the edge, you're still kind of managing all these different things. And I think it's not the volumes, it's the operational nightmare of that. For us, that's federate at the data layer. Like I could deploy Cockroach across multiple Kubernetes clusters today and you're going to have one single logical database running across those. In fact you can deploy Cockroach today on top of three public cloud providers, I can have nodes in AWS, I could have nodes in GCP, I could have nodes running on VMs in my data center. Any one of those nodes can service requests and it's going to look like a single logical database. Now that to me, when we talked about multicloud a year and a half ago or whatever that was John, that's an actual multicloud application and delivering data so that you don't have to actually deal with that in your application layer, right? You can do that down in the guts of the database itself. And so I think it's going to be interesting the way that these things gets consumed and the way that we think about where data lives and where our compute lives. I think that's part of what you're thinking about too. >> Yeah, so let me, well, I got you here. One of the things on my mind I think people want to maybe get clarification on is real quick while you're here. Take a minute to explain that you're seeing a CockroachDB and CockroachCloud. There are different products, you mentioned you've brought them both up. What's the difference for the developers watching? What's the difference of the two and when do I need to know the difference between the two? >> So to me, they're really one because CockroachCloud is CockroachDB as a service. It's our offering that makes it a world-class easy to consume experience of working with CockroachDB, where we take on all the hardware we take on the SRE role, we make sure it's up and running, right? You're getting connection, stringing your code against it. And I think, that's side of our world is really all about this kind of highly evolved database and delivering that as a service and you can actually use it's CockroachDB. I think it was just gets really interesting John is the next generation of what we're building. This serverless version of our database, where this is just an API in the cloud. We're going to have one instance of Cockroach with multi-tenant database in there and any developer can actually spin up on that. And to me, that gets to be a really interesting world when the world turns serverless, and we have, we're running our compute in Lambda and we're doing all these great things, right? Or we're using cloud run and Google, right? But what's the corresponding database to actually deal with that? And that to me is a fundamentally different database 'cause what is scale in the serverless world? It's autonomous, right? What scale in the current, like Cockroach world but you kind of keep adding nodes to it, you manage, you deal with that, right? What does resilience mean in a serverless world? It's just, yeah, its there all the time. What's important is latency when you get to kind of serverless like where are these things deployed? And I think to me, the interesting part of like the two sides of our world is what we're doing with serverless and kind of this and how we actually expose the core value of CockroachDB in that way. >> Yeah and I think that's one of the things that is the Nirvana or the holy grail of infrastructure as code is making it, I won't say irrelevant, but invisible if you're really dealing with a database thing, hey I'm just scaling and coding and the database stuff is just working with compute, just whatever, how that's serverless and you mentioned Lambda that's the action because you don't want the file name and deciding what the database is just having it happen is more productivity for the developers that kind of circles back to the whole productivity message for the developers. So I totally get that I think that's a great vision. The question I have for you Jim, is the big story here is developer simplicity. How you guys making it easier to just deploy. >> John is just an extension of the last part of the conversation. I don't want to developer to ever have to worry about a database. That's what Spencer and Peter and Ben have in their vision. It's how do I make the database so simple? It's simple, it's a SQL API in the cloud. Like it's a rest interface, I code against it, I run queries against it, I never have to worry about scaling the thing. I never have to worry about creating active, passive, and primary and secondary. All these like the DevOps side of it, all this operation stuff, it's just kind of done in the background dude. And if we can build it, and it's actually there now where we have it in beta, what's the role of the cost-based optimizer in this new world that we've had in databases? How are you actually ensuring data is located close to users and we're automating that so that, when John's in Australia doing a show, his data is going to follow him there. So he has fast access to that, right? And that's the kind of stuff that, we're talking about the next generation of infrastructure John, not like we're not building for today. Like, look at Cockroach Labs is not building for like 2021. Sure, do we have something that's great. We're building something that's 22 and 23 and 24, right? Like what do we need to be as a extremely productive set of engineers? And that's what we think about all day. How do we make data easy for the developer? >> Well, Jim, great to have you on VP of Product Marketing at Cockroach Labs, we've known each other for a long time. I got to ask you while I had got you here final question is, you and I have chatted about the many waves of in open source and in the computer industry, what's your take on where we are now. And I see you're looking at it from the Cockroach Labs perspective which is large scale distributed computing kind of you're on the new side of history, the right side of history, cloud native. Where are we right now? Compare and contrast for the folks watching who we're trying to understand the importance of where we are in the industry, where are we in and what's your take? >> Yeah John I feel fortunate to be in a company such as this one and the past couple that I've like been around and I feel like we are in the middle of a transformation. And it's just like the early days of this next generation. And I think we're seeing it in a lot of ways in infrastructure, for sure but we're starting to see it creep up into the application layer. And for me, it is so incredibly exciting to see the cloud was, remember when cloud was like this thing that people were like, oh boy maybe I'll do it. Now it's like, it's anything net new is going to be on cloud, right? Like we don't even think twice about it and the coming nature of cloud native and actually these technologies that are coming are going to be really interesting. I think the other piece that's really interesting John is the changing role of open source in this whole game, because I think of open source as code consumption and community, right? I think about those and then there's license of course, I think people were always there. A lot of people wrapped around the licensing. Consumption has changed, John. Back when we were talking to Dupe, consumption was like, oh, it's free, I get this thing I could just download it use it. Well consumption over the past three years, everybody wants everything as a service. And so we're ready to pay. For us, how do we bring free back to the service? And that's what we're doing. That's what I find like I am so incredibly excited to go through this kind of bringing back free beer to open source. I think that's going to be great 'cause if I can give you a database free up to five gig or 10 gig, man and it's available all over the planet has fully featured, that's coming, that's bringing our community and our code which is all open source and this consumption model back. And I'm super excited about that. >> Yeah, free beer who doesn't like free beer of course, developers love free beer and a great t-shirt too that's soft. Make sure you get that, get the soft >> You just don't want free puppy, you know what I mean? It was just like, yeah, that sounds painful. >> Well Jim, great to see you remotely. Can't wait to see you in person at the next event. And we've got the fall window coming up. We'll see some events. I think KubeCon in LA is going to be in-person re-invent a data breast for sure we'll be in person. I know that for a fact we'll be there. So we'll see you in person and congratulations on the work at Cockroach Labs. >> Thanks, John, great to see you again. All right, this keep coverage of DockerCon 2021. I'm John Furrie your host of theCUBE. Thanks for watching.

>>from Las Vegas. It's the Q covering quality security conference 2019. You >>bike, Wallace. Hey, Welcome back. You're ready. Geoffrey here with the Cube were in Las >>Vegas at the Kuala Security Conference here at the Bellagio. 19 years they've been doing this conference star first time here, But we've got a real veteran. Has been here for 16 years who can really add some depth and perspective for happy to welcome submit to car. He's a president and chief product officer for cause like >>to see you. Thank you, >>Jeff. Thanks for having me. >>Pleasure. So just, uh, don't lorry before getting ready for this. Um, this day, listening to the earnings call. And you got a really nice shout out in the nights in the Last Rings call and your promotion just to let everybody know what submits got underneath his plate. R and D. Q A ops, product marketing and customer support and adding worldwide field sales ops. You're busy, guy. >>Yeah, you know. But the good thing is, >>no matter who you are, you only have 24 hours in the >>day. That's true. Just as Leo. But I am curious because you've been here for a >>while, you've seen a lot of technology, you know, kind of waves. And yet here you guys still are. You've got an architecture that's built to take advantage of things like open source to take advantage of things. My cloud is you kind of take a breath between customer meetings and running from panel the panel and you think about kind of the journey. You know what? What kind of strikes you that you know, that you guys are still here, Still successful, Still have a founding CEO. It's >>your position. Yeah, It's actually very interesting >>being here for 16 years. Started a software engineer. And, you know, I've been doing a lot of stuff doing a product management now, engineering and all of that. And I think one thing that's really part of the DNA for us and which is really helped us keep growing, is being innovative continuously, right, because five years ago, nobody would have said container technology docker eso, as new security knew in for sexual pattern times have come about. We've just been on our toes and making sure that we are addressing all these different newer areas. And so the key is not so much about what new technology is going to come, because two years from now there was something that we don't even know about right now. What's key is that we build a platform that we keep adding additional capabilities that continue to quickly and nimbly be able to address customer's needs. From that perspective. >>Yeah, we just had Laureano. She talked quite a bit about your kind of customer engagement model being different than the traditional ones, really trying to build a long lasting relationship and to collect that data from the customers to know what their prairies are all about. >>Yeah, >>and, you know, it's because we've been subscription based since day one. You know, this is the not we're not incentivized to go and try to sell our customers big fact, multimillion dollar deals. Then we don't disappear like enterprise sales usually does on perpetual licenses. So we have to earn our keep, and we want to make sure customers are we understand their needs so that they actually buy and purchase only what they are going to use so we can go back and they can grow more. We show the value. Uh, so that's a very different model on, you know, at the end of the day, that is a model of the cloud. So everybody who was in this consumption based model has to ensure that they are every year, going back and showing the value and earning their subscription back. So in that sense, security. Not a lot of vendors have done that for a long time. We've been the ones since the beginning to kind of follow this model, and it's worked very well for us. It's a great model. Customers were happy as we had more solutions. We showed the value, and it's very easy for them to upgrade and get additional value of quality at a very reasonable of you. No cost to them. >>It's interesting. Feli talked about an early conversation that he had with Marc Benioff details Horse and and I would argue that it was really sales force. That kind of cracked the code in terms of enterprising, being comfortable with a cloud based system and, you know, kind of past the security and the trust in this in that, so to make that gamble on the cloud so early, very, very fortunate and for two days. Thea Other thing I think that does not get enough play which you just touched on is a subscription business model forces you to deliver every month they're paying every month you gotta deliver Your mother is a very different relationship than a once a year. You know, not even once year to go get that big lump sum to get the renewal cause you're in bed with them. Every single say absolutely. Yeah, >>so that's really a very interesting model. >>So as you look forward, I know you're just given Ah, talk on, you know, kind of starting to look at the next big wave of trends. How do you get out ahead of it? What are you thinking about? What keeps you up at night would be excited about. >>So the very cool part about that about my job is that I also heard engineering and product Fork Wallace and Security. So we're living that digital transformation that our customers are going through as well. So we have a massive black farm. We have, like, three trillion data points. Every index, we have one million rights per second on Cassandra Clusters. So we are dealing with the same infrastructure innovation that our customers are doing and so died is helping us also learn how the secular own platform what our customers are thinking. Because as they are moving into Dev ops, we have already moved into that. We have learned our lessons, so we relate to what they're going through. And that's really the next big thing is hard to be enabled. Security tools to really be built into the develops stool chain so that we eliminate a lot of the issues upfront before they ever even become an issue. And, you know, my talk this morning was about started with the notion of t t R, which is the time to remediate, and the best time to the mediator is the time of zero, right? If you don't ever let the issue get into your production environment, you never have to worry about fixing it. And that's really the next big thing for us is how do we create a platform that helps customer not the look at security in multiple silos, but to have a single platform where they can go all the way from develops to production to remediation to response all orchestrated to the same platform, >>right? It's pretty interesting, because that was, uh, Richard Clarke. Keynote the author. You know, we used to always break cos down into two buckets. You know, either those that had that have been breached and those that have been breached just don't know about it yet. Yeah. Yeah. And then, you know, he introduced his third concept, which is those that got breached but actually got on it. Remediated it. Maybe not the time, zero, but in a way that it did not become a big issue. Because, let's face it, you're going to get breached at some level. It's How do you keep it from becoming a big, big nightmare? >>Exactly. And that is really the only measure off effectiveness off your security, right? It's not about how many people you have, how many dollars you spend on security, how big your security team is. Harmony renders you have How quickly can you get in there, find and fix any issue that comes up? That's that. That's the living matter. If you can't do that with no people and no, uh, you know, re sources that are being put to it with automation, then that's great. If you do that with 50 people, that's great. We just need to be able to get to that point. And today, off course with hybrid infrastructure, we are realizing quickly, throwing more people that the problem is not really solving the problem. We just cannot keep going. We need to leverage that seem scalable technology that has been used in the digital transformation to provide that similar stuff from a security perspective through the customers as well, >>right? And even if you even if you wanted to hire the people, there aren't enough people, >>and that's another just our people, right? So the other >>thing that you must be really excited about is on the artificial intelligence of machine learning site and a lot of buzz in the press. Talk about robots and machines and this type of stuff. But, as you know, is we know where that robber really hits. The road is applied a I and bring in the power of that technology to specific problems. Complete game changer, I would assume for which you guys could do looking forward. >>Yeah. I mean, uh, you can really only >>have good machine learning and gold. Aye aye, if you really have a massive historic data that you can really mind to find out trends and understand how patterns have evolved, right, so only cloud based solutions can actually do that because they have a large amount of customer telemetry that they can understand and do that. So from that sense, Wallace Black form is absolutely suited for that. But having said that again, all of these have there specific application. So there's vendors were coming out and claiming that machine learning's going to solve world hunger and everything's gonna be great just because your machine learning but no machine learning and the prediction that comes with that on the privatization is one element off your tool kit. You still have to do your devil options still have to fix things. You still have to do a lot of things. But then how do you predict out of all the chaos, how can you try to focus on some things that may become a real problem, which are not now? So that's really the exciting part is to be able to bring that as an additional tool kit for the customer in their arsenal to be ableto respond to threats much faster and better than they have in the past, >>right? It is a cloud based platform. You guys are sitting in the catbird seat for that. What about on the other side? The on the ed side, Another kind of new thing that's coming rapidly. Edges are are messy. They don't have nice, pristine data. Center your environments. There's connectivity, problems, power problems, all types of issues as you look at kind of edge and an I A. T more generally, you know, increasing the threat surface dramatically. How do you How do you kind of think about that? How do you approach it to make it not necessarily a problem, but really an opportunity for follows? >>I mean, that's Ah, that's a great question because there is no magic pill for that, right? It's like you just have to be able to leverage continuous telemetry collection and the collection to be able to see these devices CDs, patterns on. So that's works really well for us because that to be able to do that right in a global organization to almost every organization is global. Global organization has multiple infrastructure, multiple people in different locations, multiple offices. And, uh, if you look at the eye ot architecture, it is about sensors that are pushing down the one common platform which controls them and which updates them and all of that. That's the platform that Wallace's build since the beginning is multiple of these different sensors that are continuously collecting later, pushing it back into our platform. And that's the only way you can get the visibility across your global infrastructure. So in many ways, we are well suited to do that. And which is the big reason why we gave out of a global ideas and then 20 product for free for customers, because we truly believe that that's the first step for them to start to get secure. And because we have the architecture and the platform and become significantly easier for us to be able to give them that gave every day, which is truly wide and not just say I have visibly in my cloudy here. But then container visibly, somewhere there and I ot visibly somewhere else, we bring all of that together in one place. >>All right, Spencer, I know you've got Thio run off >>to your next commitment. We >>could we could keep going, but I think we have to leave it there again. Congrats on your promotion >>and thank you. All right. He submit. I'm Jeff. You're watching the Cuba Think >>Wallace Security conference in Las Vegas. Thanks for watching. We'll see you next time. Thanks.

>>Fly from Houston, Texas. It's the cube covering Grace Hopper celebration of women in computing. >>Welcome back to the cubes coverage of the Grace Hopper conference here in Houston, Texas. I am your host, Rebecca Knight. We have a great panel today. Uh, three distinguished guests, Jeanette Epps, an aerospace astronaut. Uh, an engineer at NASA, Mimi Valdez, a executive producer on the film, hidden figures and Christina DOJ who is a, I want to call her a rocket scientist. She will not let me, she's an electrical engineer at, at, at NASA. Thank you so much for joining me. Hey Jeanette. I want to start with you. Um, recently president Obama has said we're gonna put men on Mars, men and women, men and women on Mars. How realistic is that? I mean, it's exciting for the, for the rest of us, non astronauts to hear this is, is it realistic? >>It is realistic. And one of the things I love that he, he did that was that it gives a national initiative to go back to Mars. And so that means that people will get more involved in STEM careers, especially girls will get more involved. And it's kinda like, you know what JFK did back in the 60s to give us that push a goal, an end goal to do something. Great. >>And do you think that, you know, he said by 2030, it's not very long from now. I mean, is it going to happen? I mean, what's, >>well right now a witness is working on is we have the NASA Orion program and it's a, uh, a power light capsule that will be launched off of one of the largest rockets bigger than the Saturn five or as big. And so that the mission of NASA, Orion is to take us beyond low earth orbit and go deeper into space. So we're looking at NASA, Orion, potentially maybe being the ship that will go to Mars and you know, maybe we have more work to do, but all of getting the nation onboard with going to Mars will inspire a new generation to do great things that will help us to get to Mars. Even >>Obama has said he loves science as a kid. That was his favorite subject in school. And do you think that it will have this galvanizing effect of, as you said, making sure more little boys and girls are studying STEM? >>Well, I've seen it already with some of the tweets and different things, questions that kids ask me nowadays. I think every kid has in their heart this goal to go to Mars now. And um, I can't go to a conference or anywhere without, uh, some young child asking about Mars and what, what are, how are we going to get there? When are we going to get there? And you know, I think one of my jobs is to inspire them to get involved in STEM and help us to get to Mars. There's a lot of technology that we need to develop and produce so that we can get astronauts to live longer away from the earth surface. We have the propulsion system that can get them there faster and bring them back home long. Will it take, well, it depends on the propulsion system that we developed. So there's a number of things that we're working on to make sure that what president Obama has said will get us to Mars in the 2030s if it's pushed out to a little later, that's fine. We're working on it and we're, we're going forward with them. >>Mimi, I want to talk to you now about the film hidden figures. Uh, we'll be out in some theaters and Christmas wide release in January. It is the story of black women mathematicians working in the 1960s at NASA. How did you find out about this story? Well, I give credits at Donna gelato, one of the producers on the film who optioned the book when it was a book proposal. So before the book was even written, she optioned this the story, and it's just this amazing story that the world doesn't even know about. We all know about John Glenn's mission. He came back a national hero. It was a moment in history that galvanized the world. You know, America winning the space race. But we don't know the story of all these brilliant mathematicians, all these women who actually will really responsible Katherine Johnson specifically who hand calculated those numbers for his cause. >>Everybody, I mean, I think this is such an amazing thing to do. And, and again, we just don't know her story. And as well as Dorothy Vaughn and Mary Jackson, I mean, so many women that worked at NASA that were just, um, they were hidden. You just don't know their stories. So, so the film tells their story, it tells their, um, it tells what they did, how they helped John Glenn. Did John Glenn appreciate that John Glenn actually would not go into space unless Katherine double checked the numbers. Like he wanted her to actually, you know, he, he, he trusted her because this is when the IBM computers were first coming into NASA. So they had started asserted use that and he was like, Hmm, I, I need Catherine to check the numbers before I go into say they were friends, professional colleagues. I mean he just knew who, you know, obviously she, she was really responsible and sort of that whole mission. >>And, and you know, for him it was just sort of like, eh, these computers thing, this was like a new thing at NASA. He's like, I need a human to make sure that these numbers are right. Right. Yeah. So we're excited about the film. Who's in it? Taraji P Henson plays captain Johnson. Octavia Spencer, please. I'm Dorothy Vaughan and Janell Monae. Um, she's a, uh, a musician. This is sort of her first really big role and she plays Mary Jackson. Kevin Costner is the head of the space station. Um, we have really great actors, but I think what was really important to everyone who participated in the film was everyone understood the importance of the story and wanting to make sure that we got it right. And also, you know, movies are supposed to be entertaining, but when they can be also inspirational and educate in some way, the fact that some young girls somewhere may see this movie and decide to pursue a career in math or science or any of the STEM careers is really gratifying to us because that's what we would love to accomplish. >>You know, Christina, you have been at NASA for nine years. Uh, tell me about your style, how you got, how you got to NASA in the first place. So I've always loved space since I was like a young child. I was in fifth grade when I told my parents that I wanted to work for NASA. So really since that point, like that was, you know, my dream. And so I, you know, pursued the math and science. Those were some of my favorite subjects. Um, luckily I had some supportive parents who really like saw that desire in me and kind of nurtured and encouraged me to, Hey, if that's what you want to do, then you go for it. We'll do whatever we can. Um, and then I came across some NASA opportunities in high school. Um, and one of the programs was the high school aerospace scholars program. >>And in that program I kinda got a glimpse into what it was like to be an engineer, to work at NASA. I got to speak with, you know, fight directors and um, flight controllers. And there's so many people who contribute to the space program. And that experience really solidified my desire to pursue STEM, STEM. Um, so I started to electrical engineering and then from there, um, you know, did the internship at NASA and I've enjoyed my career so far. It's been a, it's been a great experience. And so you work on the jet propulsion system of spaceships. Um, I work Lena. Um, I work on the power systems power systems. So you are, what do you do? So, um, as an electrical engineer on power systems, I work on the design of the power system testing. Um, basically everything on the spacecraft is going to need power. >>So I'm responsible for how I need to provide power, how much, um, when we talk about going to Mars, that's a, that's a long duration mission and power is something that, um, you have to budget for. So we need to advance that technology to support these missions that, um, our administration has said we want to go there. How are y'all going to accomplish this? So there's a lot of um, design hands on work and it's, you know, it's a challenge. But I mean, together as a team, we can, I believe that will, you know, meet that goal and be able to deliver a power system that will take us to Mars. So this is a question for rip for really all of you. You're an astronaut, you were working at NASA, you just made a movie to encourage young women to, to, to, to get into the STEM field. Why is it NASA recruiting here at, at, at Grace Hopper and, and should it be, do not, do you want to take this? >>Well, that's a good question. It's not that I'm mass and I don't, it's not that I don't think NASA has a desire to recruit here. I think there's recruiting times where people come out and do that. But I think I'm, one of the things that we do in the astronaut Corps, we try to go out and attend conferences like that and try to inspire students to be interested in NASA to understand what NASA is doing, to understand, you know, the shuttle retired. But we're still flying. In fact, when I fly to space and hopefully in 2018 I'll fly with the Russians. But in the meantime, NASA's building two shadows that would take astronauts to the international space station and NASA, Orion, that'll take us deeper into space. So we want to try to inspire with our stories and get people interested in science, technology, engineering, mathematics, and now even the arts, the arts play a big part of this. The arts play a big part of the well, yeah, I think I'm as a scientist and looking at patterns and things like that, there's a lot of um, people who, um, begin to work in the arts, even if it's building things with their hands and making, sculpting things, painting things. And so there's a lot of artwork that comes into play in science that is >>really refreshing, exciting, count, counterintuitive. I mean, what would you say are the ways we've talked about getting them, getting them interested through, through film. Um, talking about, uh, Obama making this, this grand announcement and Treme, what are some other ways that we can get the next generation into this field? Well, representation is obviously important. I think when people get to see images in the media of these different fields and all the possibilities, I mean every kid on this planet is obsessed with their phone, maybe not realizing like the importance of these STEM careers that are making these phones even possible or even exist. And I think the more that we can expose these careers and all these possibilities, I think it will just be just more beneficial just for humanity in general. I mean, as we know, nothing in this world can exist without math. >>Nothing. So the more that we can sort of encourage young people to see what an incredible career this is in all the possibilities that go into it, I just think we'll be better off as a nation and as a, you know, just globally as a world. Jeanette, I mean, do you have any thoughts about how, what you would advise someone? I mean you started at NASA nine years ago. So I mean, as an engineer I feel like, I mean I am making some contribution, but really the way I feel like I have more impact is through mentoring and you know, participating in those outreach type of activities for, uh, younger students like K through 12. And then also, um, you know, undergraduate like where they're really like trying to figure out what are the career options and STEM. And so that's how I feel I can have an impact there. >>And these movies help because there's a surge of like, like it's inspirational for young students to see this and be like, Oh, I never knew that that was an option. And so we get outreached to NASA, um, our request to, you know, interact with, uh, local schools and communities and kind of, um, you know, do all my lessons or just teaching with them, just talking about kind of like what the career is like. So, um, I mean I hoping that I can contribute in that way for younger, younger people. Janette are, you are an impressive astronaut, but you are also known as a black woman astronaut. Yeah. D do you do, do you bristle at that or do you embrace it? What, what do you, how, what's the responsibility? >>Oh, I totally embrace it. You know, I'm young ladies always ask me, did you have a problem being a black woman and engineering? And I always tell them that, um, I don't have a problem with being a black woman. And if other people do, then that's their problem. I totally embrace it because I'm, one of the things that I didn't realize was that, um, there's still a need to have positive role models and images of yourself. You know, growing up, my mom never taught my twin sister and I that you couldn't do something because you are a female or Brown. But there are a lot of young ladies that actually do experience that. And so having a positive roam out of it, show them that, Hey look, if I can do this, you can do this too. There's no reason you shouldn't be doing this right now yourself. >>So you are a role model. And how do you then also make sure that it's active role modeling and not just sort of standing on a pedestal of. >>One of the things I like to do is like Catherine Johnson and these great ladies that, you know, without them I, you know, I wouldn't be here is you have to do well and you have to perform well. You have to do the same work that your colleagues are doing and don't do less and don't accept less either. And when it comes to the hard work, put in the time, do the work, complete the tasks and make sure you're, you're representing yourself and your group well and you don't want to be accounted as well. You know, she's the one that we've got to help and we've got to do this, but you want to be a contributing member to every group that you're a part of and completing the tasks, doing the same work if not better. I like to say do better work, but you know, you want to be a part of the. >>Yeah. But that puts so much pressure too because it is, it's, it's be a contributor, but also don't mess up because you are under a microscope to some degree because those are, >>you know, messing up isn't, isn't. Um, failure is never, um, should never be. If it's unintentional, that's okay because you always learn from your mistakes and you have to forgive yourself and keep moving forward. If you stop right there because of a failure, um, you wouldn't go anywhere. We all fell. And it's how you respond to it. That matters. >>Yeah. Every failure is an opportunity to learn. And I think, um, you know, yeah. You can't be scared. I mean, the first and foremost is just doing a good job that, cause once, if you're just dedicated and focused on that, then I think great things can happen. And then failure is really a, a buzzword in Silicon Valley too. Right now. It's a fail fast. Um, and this idea, as you were talking about that it's your response to failure that makes a difference. Yeah. And NASA, I became familiar with this famous phrase of failing forward, meaning that yes, you're going to encounter problems, but if you are learning from the, if you're making improvements, you can design something better. So we call it failing forward. And that concept has, I've embraced that comset and it's, you know, I've encountered many failures. I mean, designing new hardware. It's not gonna, you know, work right off the box. And I'm kind of embracing that idea that it's a learning experience. As long as you don't give up as if you're applying what you learned, then that is not a failure. Christina, this is great. Christina DOJ, Mimi Valdez, Jeanette Epps. Thank you so much for joining us today. This has been such a having to be here. I'm not worthy. Thank you. This has been Rebecca Knight live coverage of the Grace Hopper conference here in Houston, Texas. We'll be back after this break.