>>Hey everybody. Welcome back. Good afternoon. Lisa Martin here with John Feer live in Detroit, Michigan. We are at Coon Cloud Native Con 2020s North America. John Thank is who. This is nearing the end of our second day of coverage and one of the things that has been breaking all day on this show is news. News. We have more news to >>Break next. Yeah, this next segment is a company we've been following. They got some news we're gonna get into. Managing Kubernetes life cycle has been a huge challenge when you've got large organizations, whether you're spinning up and scaling scale is the big story. Kubernetes is the center of the conversation. This next segment's gonna be great. It >>Is. We've got two guests from Specter Cloud here. Please welcome. It's CEO Chenery Fu and co-founder and it's c g a co-founder Sta Mallek. Guys, great to have you on the program. Thank >>You for having us. My pleasure. >>So Timary, what's going on? What's the big news? >>Yeah, so we just announced our Palace three this morning. So we add a bunch, a new functionality. So first of all we have a Nest cluster. So enable enterprise to easily provide Kubernete service even on top of their existing clusters. And secondly, we also support seamlessly migration for their existing cluster. We enable them to be able to migrate their cluster into our CNC for upstream Kubernete distro called Pallet extended Kubernetes, GX K without any downtime. And lastly, we also add a lot of focus on developer experience. Those additional capability enable developer to easily onboard and and deploy the application for. They have test and troubleshooting without, they have to have a steep Kubernetes lending curve. >>So big breaking news this morning, pallet 3.0. So you got the, you got the product. This is a big theme here. Developer productivity, ease of use is the top story here. As developers are gonna increase their code velocity cuz they're under a lot of pressure. This infrastructure's getting smarter. This is a big part of managing it. So the toil is now moving to the ops. Steves are now dev teams. Security, you gotta enable faster deployment of apps and code. This is what you guys solve while you getting this right. Is that, take us through that specific value proposition. What's the, what are the key things on in this news release? Yeah, >>You're exactly right. Right. So we basically provide our solution to platform engineering ship so that they can use our platform to enable Kubernetes service to serve their developers and their application ship. And then in the meantime, the developers will be able to easily use Kubernetes or without, They have to learn a lot of what Kubernetes specific things like. So maybe you can get in some >>Detail. Yeah. And absolutely the detail about it is there's a big separation between what operations team does and the development teams that are using the actual capabilities. The development teams don't necessarily to know the internals of Kubernetes. There's so much complexity when it comes, comes into it. How do I do things like deployment pause manifests just too much. So what our platform does, it makes it really simple for them to say, I have a containerized application, I wanna be able to model it. It's a really simple profile and from there, being able to say, I have a database service. I wanna attach to it. I have a specific service. Go run it behind the scenes. Does it run inside of a Nest cluster? Which we'll talk into a little bit. Does it run into a host cluster? Those are happen transparently for >>The developer. You know what I love about this? What you guys are doing in the news, it really points out what I love about DevOps. Because cloud, let's face a cloud early adopters, we're all the hardcore cloud folks as it goes mainstream. With Kubernetes, you start to see like words like platform engineering. I mean I love that term. That means as a platform, it's been around for a while. For people who are building their own stuff, that means it's gonna scale and enable people to enable value, build on top of it, move faster. This platform engineering is becoming now standard in enterprises. It wasn't like that before. What's your eyes reactions that, How do you see that evolving faster? Or do you believe that or what's your take on >>It? Yeah, so I think it's starting from the DevOps op team, right? That every application team, they all try to deploy and manage their application under their own ING infrastructure. But very soon all these each application team, they start realize they have to repeatedly do the same thing. So these will need to have a platform engineering team to basically bring some of common practice to >>That. >>And some people call them SREs like and that's really platform >>Engineering. It is, it is. I mean, you think about like Esther ability to deploy your applications at scale and monitoring and observability. I think what platform engineering does is codify all those best practices. Everything when it comes about how you monitor the actual applications. How do you do c i CD your backups? Instead of not having every single individual development team figuring how to do it themselves. Platform engineer is saying, why don't we actually build policy that we can provide as a service to different development teams so that they can operate their own applications at scale. >>So launching Pellet 3.0 today, you also had a launch in September, so just a few weeks ago. Talk about what these two announcements mean from Specter Cloud's perspective in terms of proof points, what you're delivering to the end users and the value that they're getting from that. >>Yeah, so our goal is really to help enterprise to deploy and around Kubernetes anywhere, right? Whether it's in cloud data center or even at Edge locations. So in September we also announce our HV two capabilities, which enable very easy deployment of Edge Kubernetes, right at at at any any location, like a retail stores restaurant, so on and so forth. So as you know, at Edge location, there's no cloud endpoint there. It's not easy to directly deploy and manage Kubernetes. And also at Edge location there's not, it's not as secure as as cloud or data center environment. So how to make the end to end system more secure, right? That it's temper proof, that is also very, very important. >>Right. Great, great take there. Thanks for explaining that. I gotta ask cuz I'm curious, what's the secret sauce? Is it nested clusters? What's, what's the core under the hood here on 3.0 that people should know about it's news? It's what's, what's the, what's that post important >>To? To be honest, it's about enabling developer velocity. Now how do you enable developer velocity? It's gonna be able for them to think about deploying applications without worrying about Kubernetes being able to build this application profiles. This NEA cluster that we're talking about enables them, they get access to it in complete cluster within seconds. They're essentially having access to be able to add any operations, any capabilities without having the ability to provision a cluster on inside of infrastructure. Whether it's Amazon, Google, or OnPrem. >>So, and you get the dev engine too, right? That that, that's a self-service provisioning in for environments. Is that, Yeah, >>So the dev engine itself are the capabilities that we offer to developers so that they can build these application profiles. What the application profiles, again they define aspects about, my application is gonna be a container, it's gonna be a database service, it's gonna be a helm chart. They define that entire structure inside of it. From there they can choose to say, I wanna deploy this. The target environment, whether it becomes an actual host cluster or a cluster itself is irrelevant to them. For them it's complete transparent. >>So transparency, enabling developer velocity. What's been some of the feedback so far? >>Oh, all developer love that. And also same for all >>The ops team. If it's easy and goods faster and the steps >>Win-win team. Yeah, Ops team, they need a consistency. They need a governance, they need visibility, but in the meantime, developers, they need the flexibility then theys or without a steep learning curve. So this really, >>So So I hear a lot of people say, I got a lot of sprawl, cluster sprawl. Yeah, let's get outta hand does, let's solve that. How do you guys solve that problem? Yeah, >>So the Neste cluster is a profit answer for that. So before you nest cluster, for a lot of enterprise to serving developers, they have to either create a very large TED cluster and then isolated by namespace, which not ideal for a lot of situation because name stay namespace is not a hard isolation and also a lot of global resource like CID and operator does not work in space. But the other way is you give each developer a separate, a separate ADE cluster, but that very quickly become too costly. Cause not every developer is working for four, seven, and half of the time your, your cluster is is a sit there idol and that costs a lot of money. So you cluster, you'll be able to basically do all these inside the your wholesale cluster, bring the >>Efficiency there. That is huge. Yeah. Saves a lot of time. Reduces the steps it takes. So I take, take a minute, my last question to you to explain what's in it for the developer, if they work with Spec Cloud, what is your value? What's the pitch? Not the sales pitch, but like what's the value pitch that >>You give them? Yeah, yeah. And the value for us is again, develop their number of different services and teams people are using today are so many, there are so many different languages or so many different libraries there so many different capabilities. It's too hard for developers to have to understand not only the internal development tools, but also the Kubernetes, the containers of technologies. There's too much for it. Our value prop is making it really easy for them to get access to all these different integrations and tooling without having to learn it. Right? And then being able to very easily say, I wanna deploy this into a cluster. Again, whether it's a Nest cluster or a host cluster. But the next layer on top of that is how do we also share those abilities with other teams. If I build my application profile, I'm developing an application, I should be able to share it with my team members. But Henry saying, Hey Tanner, why don't you also take a look at my app profile and let's build and collaborate together on that. So it's about collaboration and be able to move >>Really fast. I mean, more develops gotta be more productive. That's number one. Number one hit here. Great job. >>Exactly. Last question before we run out Time. Is this ga now? Can folks get their hands on it where >>Yes. Yeah. It is GA and available both as a, as a SaaS and also the store. >>Awesome guys, thank you so much for joining us. Congratulations on the announcement and the momentum that Specter Cloud is empowering itself with. We appreciate your insights on your time. >>Thank you. Thank you so much. Right, pleasure. >>Thanks for having us. For our guest and John Furrier, Lisa Martin here live in Michigan at Co con Cloud native PON 22. Our next guests join us in just a minute. So stick around.

(upbeat music) >> theCUBE presents KubeCon and CloudNativeCon Europe 22, brought to you by the Cloud Native Computing Foundation. >> Valencia, Spain, a KubeCon, CloudNativeCon Europe 2022. I'm Keith Towns along with Paul Gillon, Senior Editor Enterprise Architecture for Silicon Angle. Welcome Paul. >> Thank you Keith, pleasure to work with you. >> We're going to have some amazing people this week. I think I saw stat this morning, 65% of the attendees, 7,500 folks. First time KubeCon attendees, is this your first conference? >> It is my first KubeCon and it is amazing to see how many people are here and to think of just a couple of years ago, three years ago, we were still talking about, what the Cloud was, what the Cloud was going to do and how we were going to integrate multiple Clouds. And now we have this whole new framework for computing that is just rifled out of nowhere. And as we can see by the number of people who are here this has become the dominant trend in Enterprise Architecture right now how to adopt Kubernetes and containers, build microservices based applications, and really get to that transparent Cloud that has been so elusive. >> It has been elusive. And we are seeing vendors from startups with just a few dozen people, to some of the traditional players we see in the enterprise space with 1000s of employees looking to capture kind of lightning in a bottle so to speak, this elusive concept of multicloud. >> And what we're seeing here is very typical of an early stage conference. I've seen many times over the years where the floor is really dominated by companies, frankly, I've never heard of that. The many of them are only two or three years old, you don't see the big dominant computing players with the presence here that these smaller companies have. That's very typical. We saw that in the PC age, we saw it in the early days of Unix and it's happening again. And what will happen over time is that a lot of these companies will be acquired, there'll be some consolidation. And the nature of this show will change, I think dramatically over the next couple or three years but there is an excitement and an energy in this auditorium today that is really a lot of fun and very reminiscent of other new technologies just as they requested. >> Well, speaking of new technologies, we have Dave Cole, CRO, Chief Revenue Officer. >> That's right. >> Chief Marketing Officer of Spectrum Cloud. Welcome to the show. >> Thank you. It's great to be here. >> So let's talk about this big ecosystem, Kubernetes. >> Yes. >> Solve problem? >> Well the dream is... Well, first of all applications are really the lifeblood of a company, whether it's our phone or whether it's a big company trying to connect with its customers about applications. And so the whole idea today is how do I build these applications to build that tight relationship with my customers? And how do I reinvent these applications rapidly in along comes containerization which helps you innovate more quickly? And certainly a dominant technology there is Kubernetes. And the question is, how do you get Kubernetes to help you build applications that can be born anywhere and live anywhere and take advantage of the places that it's running? Because everywhere has pluses and minuses. >> So you know what, the promise of Kubernetes from when I first read about it years ago is, runs on my laptop? >> Yeah. >> I can push it to any Cloud, any platforms. >> That's right, that's right. >> Where's the gap? Where are we in that phase? Like talk to me about scale? Is it that simple? >> Well, that is actually the problem is that today, while the technology is the dominant containerization technology in orchestration technology, it really still takes a power user, it really hasn't been very approachable to the masses. And so was these very expensive highly skilled resources that sit in a dark corner that have focused on Kubernetes, but that now is trying to evolve to make it more accessible to the masses. It's not about sort of hand wiring together, what is a typical 20 layer stack, to really manage Kubernetes and then have your engineers manually can reconfigure it and make sure everything works together. Now it's about how do I create these stacks, make it easy to deploy and manage at scale? So we've gone from sort of DIY Developer Centric to all right, now how do I manage this at scale? >> Now this is a point that is important, I think is often overlooked. This is not just about Kubernetes. This is about a whole stack of Cloud Native Technologies. And you who is going to integrate that all that stuff, piece that stuff together? Obviously, you have a role in that. But in the enterprise, what is the awareness level of how complex this stack is and how difficult it is to assemble? >> We see a recognition of that we've had developers working on Kubernetes and applications, but now when we say, how do we weave it into our production environments? How do we ensure things like scalability and governance? How do we have this sort of interesting mix of innovation, flexibility, but with control? And that's sort of an interesting combination where you want developers to be able to run fast and use the latest tools, but you need to create these guardrails to deploy it at scale. >> So where do the developers fit in that operation stack then? Is Kubernetes an AIOps or an ops task or is it sort of a shared task across the development spectrum? >> Well, I think there's a desire to allow application developers to just focus on the application and have a Kubernetes related technology that ensures that all of the infrastructure and related application services are just there to support them. And because the typical stack from the operating system to the application can be up to 20 different layers, components, you just want all those components to work together, you don't want application developers to worry about those things. And the latest technologies like Spectra Cloud there's others are making that easy application engineers focus on their apps, all of the infrastructure and the services are taken care of. And those apps can then live natively on any environment. >> So help paint this picture for us. I get AKS, EKS, Anthos, all of these distributions OpenShift, the Tanzu, where's Spectra Cloud helping me to kind of cobble together all these different distros, I thought distro was the thing just like Linux has different distros, Randy said different distros. >> That actually is the irony, is that sort of the age of debating the distros largely is over. There are a lot of distros and if you look at them there are largely shades of gray in being different from each other. But the Kubernetes distribution is just one element of like 20 elements that all have to work together. So right now what's happening is that it's not about the distribution it's now how do I again, sorry to repeat myself, but move this into scale? How do I move it into deploy at scale to be able to manage ongoing at scale to be able to innovate at-scale, to allow engineers as I said, use the coolest tools but still have technical guardrails that the enterprise knows, they'll be in control of. >> What does at-scale mean to the enterprise customers you're talking to now? What do they mean when they say that? >> Well, I think it's interesting because we think scale's different because we've all been in the industry and it's frankly, sort of boring old word. But today it means different things, like how do I automate the deployment at-scale? How do I be able to make it really easy to provision resources for applications on any environment, from either a virtualized or bare metal data center, Cloud, or today Edge is really big, where people are trying to push applications out to be closer to the source of the data. And so you want to be able to deploy it-scale, you want to manage at-scale, you want to make it easy to, as I said earlier, allow application developers to build their applications, but ITOps wants the ability to ensure security and governance and all of that. And then finally innovate at-scale. If you look at this show, it's interesting, three years ago when we started Spectra Cloud, there are about 1400 businesses or technologies in the Kubernetes ecosystem, today there's over 1800 and all of these technologies made up of open source and commercial all version in a different rates, it becomes an insurmountable problem, unless you can set those guardrails sort of that balance between flexibility, control, let developers access the technologies. But again, manage it as a part of your normal processes of a scaled operation. >> So Dave, I'm a little challenged here, because I'm hearing two where I typically consider conflicting terms. Flexibility, control. >> Yes. >> In order to achieve control, I need complexity, in order to choose flexibility, I need t-shirt, one t-shirt fits all and I get simplicity. How can I get both that just doesn't compute. >> Well, that's the opportunity and the challenge at the same time. So you're right. So developers want choice, good developers want the ability to choose the latest technology so they can innovate rapidly. And yet ITOps, wants to be able to make sure that there are guardrails. And so with some of today's technologies, like Spectra Cloud, it is, you have the ability to get both. We actually worked with dimensional research, and we sponsor an annual state of Kubernetes survey. We found this last summer, that two out of three IT executives said, you could not have both flexibility and control together, but in fact they want it. And so it is this interesting balance, how do I give engineers the ability to get anything they want, but ITOps the ability to establish control. And that's why Kubernetes is really at its next inflection point. Whereas I mentioned, it's not debates about the distro or DIY projects. It's not big incumbents creating siloed Kubernetes solutions, but in fact it's about allowing all these technologies to work together and be able to establish these controls. And that's really where the industry is today. >> Enterprise , enterprise CIOs, do not typically like to take chances. Now we were talking about the growth in the market that you described from 1400, 1800 vendors, most of these companies, very small startups, our enterprises are you seeing them willing to take a leap with these unproven companies? Or are they holding back and waiting for the IBMs, the HPS, the MicrosoftS to come in with the VMwares with whatever they solution they have? >> I think so. I mean, we sell to the global 2000. We had yesterday, as a part of Edge day here at the event, we had GE Healthcare as one of our customers telling their story, and they're a market share leader in medical imaging equipment, X-rays, MRIs, CAT scans, and they're starting to treat those as Edge devices. And so here is a very large established company, a leader in their industry, working with people like Spectra Cloud, realizing that Kubernetes is interesting technology. The Edge is an interesting thought but how do I marry the two together? So we are seeing large corporations seeing so much of an opportunity that they're working with the smaller companies, the latest technology. >> So let's talk about the Edge a little, you kind of opened it up there. How should customers think about the Edge versus the Cloud Data Center or even bare metal? >> Actually it's a... Well bare metal is fairly easy is that many people are looking to reduce some of the overhead or inefficiencies of the virtualized environment. But we've had really sort of parallel little white tornadoes, we've had bare metal as infrastructure that's been developing, and then we've had orchestration developing but they haven't really come together very well. Lately, we're finally starting to see that come together. Spectra Cloud contributed to open source a metal as a service technology that finally brings these two worlds together, making bare metal much more approachable to the enterprise. Edge is interesting, because it seems pretty obvious, you want to push your application out closer to your source of data, whether it's AI inferencing, or IoT or anything like that, you don't want to worry about intermittent connectivity or latency or anything like that. But people have wanted to be able to treat the Edge as if it's almost like a Cloud, where all I worry about is the app. So really, the Edge to us is just the next extension in a multi-Cloud sort of motif where I want these Edge devices to require low IT resources, to automate the provisioning, automate the ongoing version management, patch management, really act like a Cloud. And we're seeing this as very popular now. And I just used the GE Healthcare example of that, imagine a CAT scan machine, I'm making this part up in China and that's just an Edge device and it's doing medical imagery which is very intense in terms of data, you want to be able to process it quickly and accurately, as close to the endpoint, the healthcare provider is possible. >> So let's talk about that in some level of details, we think about kind of Edge and these fixed devices such as imaging device, are we putting agents on there, or we looking at something talking back to the Cloud? Where does special Cloud inject and help make that simple, that problem of just having dispersed endpoints all over the world simpler? >> Sure. Well we announced our Edge Kubernetes, Edge solution at a big medical conference called HIMMS, months ago. And what we allow you to do is we allow the application engineers to develop their application, and then you can de you can design this declarative model this cluster API, but beyond Cluster profile which determines which additional application services you need and the Edge device, all the person has to do with the endpoint is plug in the power, plug in the communications, it registers the Edge device, it automates the deployment of the full stack and then it does the ongoing versioning and patch management, sort of a self-driving Edge device running Kubernetes. And we make it just very easy. No IT resources required at the endpoint, no expensive field engineering resources to go to these endpoints twice a year to apply new patches and things like that, all automated. >> But there's so many different types of Edge devices with different capabilities, different operating systems, some have no operating system. I mean that seems, like a much more complex environment, just calling it the Edge is simple, but what you're really talking about is 1000s of different devices, that you have to run your applications on how are you dealing with that? >> So one of the ways is that we're really unbiased. In other words, we're OS and distro agnostic. So we don't want to debate about which distribution you like, we don't want to debate about which OS you want to use. The truth is, you're right. There's different environments and different choices that you'll want to make. And so the key is, how do you incorporate those and also recognize everything beyond those, OS and Kubernetes and all of that and manage that full stack. So that's what we do, is we allow you to choose which tools you want to use and let it be deployed and managed on any environment. >> And who's... >> So... >> I'm sorry Keith, who's responsible for making Kubernetes run on the Edge device. >> We do. We provision the entire stack. I mean, of course the company does using our product, but we provision the entire Kubernetes infrastructure stack, all the application services and the application itself on that device. >> So I would love to dig into like where pods happen and all that. But, provisioning is getting to the point that is a solve problem. Day two. >> Yes. >> Like you just mentioned HIMMS, highly regulated environments. How does Spectra Cloud helping with configuration management, change control, audit, compliance, et cetera, the hard stuff. >> Yep. And one of the things we do, you bring up a good point is we manage the full life cycle from day zero, which is sort of create, deploy, all the way to day two, which is about access control, security, it's about ongoing versioning in a patch management. It's all of that built into the platform. But you're right, like the medical industry has a lot of regulations. And so you need to be able to make sure that everything works, it's always up to the latest level have the highest level of security. And so all that's built into the platform. It's not just a fire and forget it really is about that full life cycle of deploying, managing on an ongoing basis. >> Well, Dave, I'd love to go into a great deal of detail with you about kind of this day two ops and I think we'll be covering a lot more of that topic, Paul, throughout the week, as we talk about just as we've gotten past, how do I deploy Kubernetes pod, to how do I actually operate IT? >> Absolutely, absolutely. The devil is in the details as they say. >> Well, and also too, you have to recognize that the Edge has some very unique requirements, you want very small form factors, typically, you want low IT resources, it has to be sort of zero touch or low touch because if you're a large food provider with 20,000 store locations, you don't want to send out field engineers two or three times a year to update them. So it really is an interesting beast and we have some exciting technology and people like GE are using that. >> Well, Dave, thanks a lot for coming on theCUBE, you're now KubeCon, you've not been on before? >> I have actually, yes its... But I always enjoy it. >> Great conversation. From Valencia, Spain. I'm Keith Towns, along with Paul Gillon and you're watching theCUBE, the leader in high tech coverage. (upbeat music)

>>The cube presents, Coon and cloud native con Europe 22 brought to you by the cloud native computing foundation. >>Lisia Spain, a cuon cloud native con Europe 2022. I'm Keith towns, along with Paul Gillon, senior editor, enterprise architecture for Silicon angle. Welcome Paul, >>Thank you, Keith pleasure to work >>With you. You know, we're gonna have some amazing people this week. I think I saw stat this morning, 65% of the attendees, 7,500 folks. First time Q con attendees. This is your first conference. >>It is my first cubic con and it is amazing to see how many people are here and to think of, you know, just a couple of years ago, three years ago, we were still talking about what the cloud was and what the cloud was gonna do and how we were gonna integrate multiple clouds. And now we have this whole new framework for computing that is just rifled out of, out of nowhere. And as we can see by the number of people who are here, this has become a, a, this is the dominant trend in enterprise architecture right now, how to adopt Kubernetes and containers, build microservices based applications, and really get to that, that transparent cloud that has been so elusive. >>It has been elusive. And we are seeing vendors from startups with just a, a few dozen people to some of the traditional players we see in the enterprise space with thousands of employees looking to capture kind of lightning in a bottle, so to speak this elusive concept of multi-cloud. >>And what we're seeing here is very typical of an early stage conference. I've seen many times over the years where the, the floor is really dominated by companies, frankly, I've never heard of that. Many of them are only two or three years old, and you don't see the big, the big dominant computing players with, with the presence here that these smaller companies have. That's very typical. We saw that in the PC age, we saw it in the early days of Unix and, and it's happening again. And what will happen over time is that a lot of these companies will be acquired. There'll be some consolidation. And the nature of this show will change, I think, dramatically over the next couple or three years, but there is an excitement and an energy in this auditorium today that is, is really a lot of fun and very reminiscent of other new technologies just as they press it. >>Well, speaking of new technologies, we have Dave Cole, CR O chief revenue officer that's right. Chief marketing officer that's right of spec cloud. Welcome to the show. Thank >>You. It's great to be here. >>So let's talk about this big ecosystem. Okay. Kubernetes. Yes. Solve problem. >>Well, you know, the, the dream is, well, first of all, applications are really the lifeblood of a company, whether it's our phone or whether it's a big company trying to connect with its customer, it's about applications. And so the whole idea today is how do I build these applications to build that tight relationship with my customers? And how do I reinvent these applications rapidly in, along comes containerization, which helps you innovate more quickly. And certainly a dominant technology. There is Kubernetes. And the, the question is how do you get Kubernetes to help you build applications that can be born anywhere and live anywhere and take advantage of the places that it's running, cuz everywhere has pluses and minuses. >>So you know what the promise of Kubernetes from when I first read about it years ago is runs on my laptop. Yep. I can push it to any cloud, any platform that's that's right. Where's the gap. Where are we in that, in that phase? Like talk to me about scale. Is that, is that, is it that simple? >>Well, that act is actually the problem is that date while the technology is the dominant containerization technology and orchestration technology, it really still takes a power user. It really hasn't been very approachable to the masses. And so it was these very expensive, highly skilled resources that sit in a dark corner that have focused on Kubernetes, but that, that now is trying to evolve to make it more accessible to the masses. It's not about sort of hand wiring together. What is a typical 20 layer stack to really manage Kubernetes and then have your engineers manually can reconfigure it and make sure everything works together. Now it's about how do I create these stacks, make it easy to deploy and manage at scale. So we've gone from sort of DIY developer centric to all right, now, how do I manage this at scale? >>Now this is a point that is important, I think is often overlooked. This is not just about Kubernetes. This is about a whole stack of cloud native technologies. Yes. And you who is going to, who is going to integrate that, all that stuff, piece that stuff together, right? Obviously you have a, a role in that. Yes. But in the enterprise, what is the awareness level of how complex this stack is and how difficult it is to assemble? >>We, we see a recognition of that, that we've had developers working on Kubernetes and applications, but now when we say, how do we weave it into our production environments? How do we ensure things like scalability and governance? How do we have this sort of interesting mix of innovation, flexibility, but with control. And that's sort of an interesting combination where you want developers to be able to run fast and use the latest tools, but you need to create these guardrails to deploy it at scale. >>So where do the developers fit in that operation stack then? Is this, is Kubernetes an AI ops or an ops a task, or is it sort of a shared task across the development spectrum? >>Well, I think there's a desire to allow application developers, to just focus on the application and have a Kubernetes related technology that ensures that all of the infrastructure and related application services are just there to support them. And because the typical stack from the operating system to the application can be up to 20 different layers components. You just want all those components to work together. You don't want application developers to worry about those things. And the latest technologies like spectra cloud there's others are making that easy application engineers focus on their apps, all of the infrastructure and the services are taken care of. And those apps can then live natively on any environment. >>So help paint this picture for us. You know, I get got AKs ETS and those, all of these distributions OpenShift, the tan zoo, where is spec cloud helping me to kind of cobble together all these different distros I thought distro was the, was the thing like, just like Lennox has different distros, you know, right. Randy said different distros >>That actually is the irony. Is that sort of the age of debating, the distros largely is over. There are a lot of distros and if you look at them, there are largely shades of gray in being different from each other. But the Kubernetes distribution is just one element of like 20 elements that all have to work together. So right now what's what's happening is that it's not about the distribution it's now, how do I, again, sorry to repeat myself, but move this into a, into scale. How do I move it into deploy at scale, to be able to manage ongoing at scale, to be able to innovate at scale, to allow engineers, as I said, use the coolest tools, but still have technical guardrails that the, the enterprise knows they'll be in control of what, >>What does at scale mean to the enterprise customers you're talking to now? What do they mean when they say that? >>Well, I think it's interesting cuz we think scale's different cuz we've all been in the industry and it's frankly sort of boring old wor word, but today it means different things. Like how do I automate the deployment at scale? How do I be able to make it really easy to provision resources for applications on any environment from either a virtualized or bare metal data center cloud or today edge is really big where people are trying to push applications out to be closer to this source of the data. And so you want to be able to deploy it scale you wanna manage at scale, you wanna make it easy to, as I said earlier, allow application developers to build their applications, but it ops wants the ability to ensure security and governance and all of that. And then finally innovate at scale. If you look at this show, it's interesting, three years ago, when we started spectra cloud, there are about 1400 businesses or technologies in the Kubernetes ecosystem today there's over 1800 and all of these technologies made up of open source and commercial, all versioning at different rates. It becomes an insurmountable problem unless you can set those guardrails sort of that balance between flexibility and control, let developers access the technologies. But again, manage it as a part of your normal processes of a, of a scale of operation. >>So, so Dave, I'm a little challenged here cuz I'm hearing two where I typically consider conflicting terms. Okay. Flexibility control. Yes. In order to achieve control, I need complexity in order to choose flexibility. I need t-shirt one t-shirt fits all right. To and I, and I, and I get simplicity. How can I get both that just doesn't you know, compute >>Well thus the opportunity and the challenge at the same time. So you're right. So developers want choice, good developers want the ability to choose the latest technology so they can innovate rapidly. And yet it ops wants to be able to make sure that there are guard rails. And so with some of today's technologies like spectral cloud, it is you have the ability to get both. We actually worked with dimensional research and we sponsor an annual state of Kubernetes survey. We found this last summer, that two out of three, it executives said you could not have both flexibility and control together, but in fact they want it. And so it is this interesting balance. How do I give engineers the ability to get anything they want, but it ops the ability to establish control. And that's why Kubernetes is really at its next inflection point. Whereas I mentioned, it's not debates about the distro or DIY projects. It's not big incumbents creating siloed Kubernetes solutions. But in fact it's about allowing all these technologies to work together and be able to establish these controls. And that's, that's really where the industry is today. >>Enterprise enterprise CIOs do not typically like to take chances. Now we were talking about the growth in the market that you described from 1400, 1800 vendors. Most of these companies, very small startups are, are enterprises. Are you seeing them willing to take a leap with these unproven companies or are they holding back and waiting for the IBMs, the HPS, the Microsofts to come in with the VMwares with whatever they solution they have? >>I, I think so. I mean, we sell to the global 2000. We had yesterday as a part of edge day here at the event, we had GE healthcare as one of our customers telling their story. And they're a market share leader in medical imaging equipment. X-rays MRIs, cat scans, and they're, they're starting to treat those as edge devices. And so here is a very large established company, a leader in their industry, working with people like spectral cloud, realizing that Kubernetes is interesting technology. The edge is an interesting thought, but how do I marry the two together? So we are seeing large corporations seeing so much of an opportunity that they're working with the smaller companies, the latest technology. >>So let's talk about the edge a little. You kind of opened it up there. Yeah. How should customers think about the edge versus the cloud data center or even bare metal? >>Actually it's a well bare bare metal is fairly easy is that many people are looking to reduce some of the overhead or inefficiencies of the virtualized environment. And, but we've had really sort of parallel little white tornadoes. We've had bare metal as infrastructure that's been developing and then we've had orchestration technology's developing, but they haven't really come together very well lately. We're finally starting to see that come together. Spectra cloud contributed to open source a metal as a service technology that finally brings these two worlds together. Making bare metal much more approachable to the inters enterprise edge is interesting because it seems pretty obvious. You wanna push your application out closer to your source of data, whether it's AI in fencing or O T or anything like that, you don't wanna worry about intermittent connectivity or latency or anything like that. But people have wanted to be able to treat the edge as if it's almost like a cloud where all I worry about is the app. >>So really the edge to us is just the next extension in a multi-cloud sort of motif where I want these edge devices to require low it resources to automate the provisioning, automate the ongoing version management patch management really act like a cloud. And we're seeing this as very, very popular now. And I just used the GE healthcare example of that. Imagine a cat scan machine, I'm making this part up in China and that's just an edge device. And it's, it's doing medical imagery, which is very intense in terms of data. You want to be able to process it quickly and accurately as close to the endpoint, the healthcare provider as possible. >>So let's talk about that in some level of detail, as we think about kind of edge and you know, these fixed devices such as imaging device, are we putting agents on there? Are we looking at something talking back to the cloud, where does special cloud inject and help make that simple, that problem of just having dispersed endpoints all over the world? Simpler? >>Sure. Well we announced our edge Kubernetes edge solution at a big medical conference called, called hymns months ago. And what we allow you to do is we allow the application engineers to develop their application. And then you can de you can design this declarative model, this cluster API, but beyond cluster profile, which determines which additional application services you need and the edge device, all the person has to do with the endpoint is plug in the power plug in the communications. It registers the edge device. It automates the deployment of the full stack. And then it does the ongoing versioning and patch management, sort of a self-driving edge device running Kubernetes. And we make it just very, very easy. No, it resources required at the endpoint, no expensive field engineering resources to go to these endpoints twice a year to apply new patches and things like that, all >>Automated, but there's so many different types of edge devices with different capabilities, different operating systems, some have no operating system. Yeah. I mean, what, that seems like a much more complex environment, just calling it, the edge is simple, but what you're really talking about is thousands of different devices, right? That you have to run your applications on how, how are you dealing with that? >>So one of the ways is that we're really unbiased. In other words, we're OS and distro agnostic. So we don't want to debate about which distribution you like. We don't want to debate about, you know, which OS you want to use. The truth is you're right. There's different environments and different choices that you'll wanna make. And so the key is, is how do you incorporate those and also recognize everything beyond those, you know, OS and Kubernetes and all of that and manage that full stack. So that's what we do is we allow you to choose which tools you want to use and let it be deployed and managed on any environment. >>And who's respo, I'm sorry, key. Who's responsible for making Kubernetes run on the edge device. >>We do. We provision the entire stack. I mean, of course the company does using our product, but we provision the entire Kubernetes infrastructure stack all the application services and the application itself on that device. >>So I would love to dig into like where pods happen and all that, but provisioning is getting to the point that it's a solve problem. Day two. Yes. Like we, you know, you just mentioned hymns, highly regulated environments. How does spec cloud helping with configuration management change control, audit, compliance, et cetera, the hard stuff. >>Yep. And one of the things we do, you bring up a good point is we manage the full life cycle from day zero, which is sort of create, deploy all the way to day two, which is about, you know, access control, security. It's about ongoing versioning and patch management. It's all of that built into the platform. And, but you're right. Like the medical industry has a lot of regulations. And so you need to be able to make sure that everything works. It's always up to the latest level, have the highest level of security. And so all that's built into the platform. It's not just a fire and forget it really is about that full life cycle of deploying, managing on an ongoing basis. >>Well, Dave, I'd love to go into a great deal of detail with you about kind of this day two option. I think we'll be covering a lot more of that topic, Paul, throughout the week, as we talk about just, you know, as we've gotten past, you know, how do I deploy Kubernetes pod to how do I actually operate it? >>Absolutely, absolutely. The devil is in the details as they say, >>Well, and also too, you have to recognize that the edge has some very unique requirements. You want very small form factors. Typically you want low it resources. It has to be sort of zero touch or low touch because if you're a large food provider with 20,000 store locations, you don't wanna send out field engineers two or three times a year to update them. So it really is an interesting beast and we have some exciting technology and people like GE are using that. >>Well, Dave, thanks a lot for coming on to Q you're now Cub Alon. You've not been on before. >>I have actually. Yes. Oh. But I always enjoy it. >>It's great conversation. Foria Spain. I'm Keith towns along with Paul Gillon and you're watching the cue, the leader in high tech coverage.

>> Man: from around the globe, it's "theCUBE" with coverage of "Kubecon" and "CloudNativeCon Europe 2020", virtual. Brought to you by Red Hat, the cloud native computing foundation and ecosystem partners. >> Welcome back, I'm Stu Miniman, and this is "theCUBE's" coverage of KubeCon CloudNativeCon Europe 2020, the virtual edition of course, it, this ecosystem has been bustling, a lot of activity in the five years that we've been covering it with "theCUBE" we've watched very much the maturation of what's going on. Remember, in the early days, it was open source projects, companies pulling all the pieces together. Now, there's a lot more things to choose from lots of projects, not just Kubernetes, but all the other pieces, and still lots of new innovations and new startups coming into the space. So happy to welcome to the program, have two first time guests from Spectro Cloud, first of all, we have the co founder and CEO Tenry Fu, and also Tina Notle who's the Vice President of product, Tina and Tenry, thank you so much for joining us. >> Thank you for having us. >> Likewise. >> All right, so Tenry, as one of the co founders, I want to understand, you know, why Spectro Cloud? Why now, you know, many outsiders, would they have said for a while, you know, Kubernetes, it's just getting baked into all of the environment. They looked at all the platforms, whether you're talking, you know, Google and AWS or VMware, they all have their platforms, they all have their managed services offering. So help us understand, what your team does and how you differentiate from what's already existing. >> Absolutely yeah, so I actually used to work at VMware, I, and then, I saw clouds taking off right and then I left VMware, to start my first startup called CliQr Technologies, which focus on multicloud management. But at that time, really, multicloud management through a single pane of glass is obviously right, and then clicker later acquired by Cisco. So at Cisco, I kind of witness The Container and Kubernetes taking off, right? And it makes a lot of sense, right for the first time both the application workloads and infrastructure became truly portable across multiple environments, but also very interestingly at Cisco I observed there are many developer teams, right? That is adopting Kubernetes and everyone is doing a little bit different things, that because different teams, they have a different stack constructor requirements, like some for AI/ML, some, they need a different base OS, some they just don't want to have a different version, and a lot of existing solutions doesn't really provide this kind of flexibility to satisfy all the different needs, right? one size fit all, typically is a one size fit for nothing. So we asked ourselves, why can't we try to create a platform that will give people the flexibility, but not turning it into a DIY project, right, still have a full manageability, so that user don't need to worry about the upgrade, Day Two operations, governance so and so forth. >> Yeah to Tina, I know when I've looked at your product, it's discussed as layers, which my background's in networking. So I love seeing things visually and understanding the pieces as they lay out the stack. So maybe help us understand a little bit as to, you know, that the flexibility that you give and how it's not just the Paradox of Choice, just too many options out there and you know, developers left to create their own mess that they can't then support. (laughing) >> Yeah, so you know, as Tenry mentioned, offering folks flexibility without turning into a do it yourself, you know, hot mess is what we're what we're helping People do at Spectrol Cloud, the core of our solution, the core of the differentiation within our solution is around this concept of a cluster profile, and as you mentioned, cluster profile basically allows people to define in a layered fashion, what's part of their Kubernetes infrastructure stack? So at the bottom, you're talking, what's the base operating system? What's the version of Kubernetes, that's going to be part of clusters that uses profile? What's your networking and storage interface look like? And then on top of that, you have a number of optional layers. So again, you know, back to flexibility manageability, we give people options around what those other layers look like on top. They include everything from security, logging, monitoring, etc, just anything that you want to go ahead and kind of bake into a definition, a profile of what a cluster should look like in one of your deployed environments. >> All right, well, Want to make sure I understand when you talk about Kubernetes in there, can it be, you know, say VMware with Vsphere7, now has Kubernetes support. Red Hat open shift is an option, all of the cloud players have their, you know, AKS, EKS. And they're like, can I bake that Kubernetes in or are you taking a different approach? >> We're going with upstream vanilla Kubernetes today, that allows us to go ahead and provide what's newest within the ecosystem, and let people go ahead and have a really open, really open solution that's replying. >> Okay, so when I talk to, when you look out there, a lot of companies are saying how can I manage multiple clusters? So if you look at what Google, Microsoft and VMware, they're talking about, we can manage our clusters and we can also help you with those other clusters. How does that impact Tenry, your Solution, doesn't it need to be, it's just the upstream solution that I put into that cluster profile, or can I connect to, say a managed cloud solution? >> Yeah, so I think in terms the multi class management or the consistency is really the key, right. So through this class profile concept, not only it can be used as the initial template to deploy a cluster, but it can also use as a single source for choose, to drive the cluster Lifecycle Management income upgrade. So right now, as Tina mentioned, we primarily focus on upstream, so that we want to provide the maximum flexibility in terms of our end to end Kubernetes stack. But we do also have a plan, that down the road that we go into in Brownfield existing clusters. So that enterprise, existing investment to their Kubernete infrastructure can be under managed by us. >> Well there always reaches a time when the brand new technology gets called Brownfield. I think that's the first time I've heard something like, you know, EKS or the like, you know, referred to as Brownfield. Tina, you know, when I think back to my history with integrated solutions, obviously, if I have the various pieces, it should be easier for me to stay on the latest make upgrades, roll things forward or roll things back, but you know, what, give us if you could some of the, the key values of, you know, building these cluster profiles, what that enables for your customers. >> So the key around cluster profiles, we offer this policy based management, so you describe as an administrator, what it is that those clusters need to look like, right? And we've got, we adopt a declarative desired state, you know, management approach along what Kubernetes does itself, and so what you're able to get through adopting, utilize cluster profiles, is this guarantee that from deployment and then into day two as well, what you've described in this profile, winds up maintaining itself, it remains true of the clusters that have been deployed. So what it is that you require as far as the operating system, what is required as far as some configuration options, etc. So the profile itself winds up being ground source of truth and around what it is that you've got running at all these various locations, across clouds, across different clusters, etc. >> All right. Tenry, you mentioned that having things more standardized is going to help customers, absolutely, we saw that in data centers for a long time, and standardized, how do you help customers make sure that the configuration that they build are going to work, are going to be stable, if they make changes that they're not going to get things out of sync. Is there you know, interoperability matrix or some other ways that we're trying to make sure that customers, you know, stay on the rails, if you will. >> Absolutely right, So through our system, right, all the integration points, we carry the additional metadata, right to basically give the hint about compatibility, resource constraints, right, and also the upgradability, in terms of moving from one version to another. So this way, we can kind of give you some guidance, when they initially construct a class profile, what will work together nicely and then what will not, right. And then on top of that, when upgrading from one existing cluster to a new version of a class profile definition, then we can look at the environment, right to understand, right, if there's something that potentially incompatible will popping up right, so we call that pre pilot integration, check right and also post deployment, we also allow user to run additional conformance tests. So that make sure the cluster everything is actually is still acting as as it's supposed to be. >> Another way to explain that is that you know, the cluster profile concept has a lot of flexibility attached with to it, right? That's a lot of power, it can get you into trouble if you don't have the right safety nets and safety harnesses underneath you. So we have a multi layered approach to helping make sure that people are getting benefit out of that flexibility. >> Wonderful and I'm wondering did, when you've had more customers using this, is their shared information, and if there're community guidelines that help, you know, understand when it's going to be okay, hey, 1.19's out, we're looking at 1.20. You might want to do this or hey, if you're using this piece of networking, you might want to wait a little bit before you go to the next version. >> That's definitely the idea over time, folks that are engaging with us, are very interested in the fact that, because of the fact that we're SaaS management platform, SaaS space management platform today, that it offers them the opportunity to learn from their peers, if you will, right, and their peers experiences. On top of that, we also have the ability to watch just what's been going on in other deployments in the Kubernetes ecosystem and we can make sure that all that's available, as Tenry mentioned, you know, in the form of the metadata that's on top of those packs. >> All right, how about how do you price this solution? When I look out there, I talked about Kubernetes baked into all the platforms, oftentimes, it can be baked into ELA, It's part of, you know, my just general cloud spend from that platform. So how do you do the pricing and, you know, are you plugged into any of the cloud marketplaces yet? >> Yeah, so flexibility is really part of our DNA. So even for pricing, we want to provide the maximum flexibility to our customer. So unlike some traditional solution typically is priced based on number of pause, right, a year, or even number of nodes, right. So we actually price based on number of CPU cores of all workers node under management by hour. So what we call those, core hour under management, right, and then every thousand core hours at one unit, we call kilo core hours. So kind of similar to how electricity is consumed, right, so this way, based on these core hour consumption, we allow user to either pay as you go as amongst the on demand plan, or you can do an annual commitment. >> And we are in process on the marketplaces. >> Yeah. >> All right, how about, we talked about Kubernetes, I think service mesh are part of it. What in this Kube, kubecon cloud native con ecosystem, which projects are the most tied into what you're doing anything that specter cloud is particularly contributing to that you can share? >> Yeah, so our system is built on top of Kubernetes cluster API project. So we are one of the contributor to class API, we are actively adding additional functionality to enhance class API, especially by in some other VMware environment for some custom use case, such as static IP or some special placement behaviors, and also adding additional contribute on different cloud support. >> Yeah, and as far as things that we're watching, and clearly we're, we've seen a dramatic increase in the number of people on our customer front that are interested in actual deployment, of service mesh now. So that's something that you know, we're going to be more engaged in over time. And another one that we're hoping to see, check out more talks around Kubecon is AI ML, right? A lot of interest on the part of customers around AIML use cases. >> Yeah, absolutely edge and AI and ML. Definitely very hot topics to conversation this year at the, at the Europe show, expect that to continue. Tina, I'm wondering, do you have any customer examples, maybe even anonymized that could kind of just explain the key values that your customers are seeing using your solution? >> Yeah, sure, so we've got one of our earliest customers is a Canadian financial, who came to us because, they were looking to figure out how to manage consistently at scale, and they have the problem that Tenry described earlier, around, I've got different development teams, they have different needs, and you know, how do you satisfy all those guys without going crazy, right? They've got an AIML use case, that's a special snowflake they've got two separate teams in different groups that would like to be under an IT management umbrella. That's a convergence use case that they're looking at, so kind of a typical example of somebody that we think of is, you know, a really good set of people for us to be having conversations with. We've also been working with a telecom provider that it's in a similar, similar vein actually, there's an AIML, there are multiple teams of different infrastructure, and they want to be able to consistently manage it's a story that we're seeing over and over again, thankfully. >> Yeah, we also see right from I think, at individual group or team level, right. There are a lot of, kind of a product owner or data scientists that they really want to have a kind of an easy button to quickly be able to provision Kubernetes clusters that suit for their need, right. And a lot of these groups, their primary focus is really the application, right? It's not their interest to spend a lot of time and resource on Kubernete management, in terms of deploying update, or secure an operation. So through us, they can very easily spin up a Kubernetes cluster, whether it's for AIML or for developing experiment, they can very quickly do that But with the flexibility, because a lot of existing solution, they may limit the version of Kubernetes clusters, they may limit the what kind of integration they can do. >> Yeah, Tenry you, we talked a little bit earlier about, you know, potential integration down the road. I'm curious, just there's so many companies creating innovations out there, you know, say for example, one that I hear a lot of feedback on is AWS now has far gate support for their EKS offering. Is that Something down the line you should look at or do you have some guidance as to how customers should be thinking about that, and if they want that kind of functionality, how they would get that with a solution like yours? >> Yeah, actually, we really share the same vision as AWS, right. So we believe, ultimately is the infrastructure really should be transparent to application developers, right, and it should be boundary-less. So our goal is not only manage Kubernetes, across multiple environment, but eventually we will be able to link all these cluster together, to make them acting as a single infrastructure. So developers, they can still use their familiar Kubernetes interface to deploy and manage their application, but without worrying about the how infrastructure underneath is operated or managed, right. So this in a way will eventually become kind of a phallic model, but across multiple cluster and multiple clouds. >> Alright, Tina, if maybe if you could give us the final takeaway, people attending Kubecon, cloud native con, what's the one thing that if you know they have a problem, they should be coming to Spectro cloud to hear more about? >> Yeah, sure so what Spectrol cloud aims to do is help enterprises not have to trade off between flexibility and control of their infrastructure, and manageability of use that stuff's that's the main, the main thing that we would like people to remember. >> All right, well Tenry and Tina, thank you so much for sharing with our community a little bit about Specter Cloud great talking to you and look forward to hearing more in the future. >> Thanks so much. >> Thank you too. >> All right, and stay tuned more coverage from Kubecon Cloud Native Con 2020. I'm Stu MiniMan and thank you, for watching "theCUBE." (light music)

>> From around the globe, it's theCUBE! With coverage of KubeCon and CloudNativeCon Europe 2020, virtual. Brought to you by Red Hat, the Cloud Native Computing Foundation, and ecosystem partners. >> Hi, I'm Stu Miniman and welcome to theCUBE's coverage of KubeCon CloudNativeCon 2020 in Europe. Of course the event this year was supposed to be in the Netherlands, I know I was very much looking forward to going to Amsterdam. This year of course it's going to be virtual, I'm really excited theCUBE's coverage, we've got some great members of the CNCF, we've got a bunch of end users, we've got some good thought leaders, and I'm also bringing a little bit of the Netherlands to help me bring in and start this keynote analysis, happy to welcome back to the program my cohost for the show, Joep Piscaer, who is an industry analyst with TLA. Thank you, Joep, so much for joining us, and we wish we could be with you in person, and check out your beautiful country. >> Absolutely, thanks for having me Stu, and I'm still a little disappointed we cannot eat the (indistinct foreign term) rijsttafel together this year. >> Oh, yeah, can we just have a segment to explain to people the wonder that is the fusion of Indonesian food and the display that you get only in the Netherlands? Rijsttafel, I seriously had checked all over the US and Canada, when I was younger, to find an equivalent, but one of my favorite culinary delights in the world, but we'll have to put a pin in that. You've had some warm weather in the Netherlands recently, and so many of the Europeans take quite a lot of time off in July and August, but we're going to talk about some hardcore tech, KubeCon, a show we love doing, the European show brings good diversity of experiences and customers from across the globe. So, let's start, the keynote, Priyanka Sharma, the new general manager of the CNCF, of course, just some really smart people that come out and talk about a lot of things. And since it's a foundation show, there's some news in there, but it's more about how they're helping corral all of these projects, of course, a theme we've talked about for a while is KubeCon was the big discussion for many years about Kubernetes, still important, and we'll talk about that, but so many different projects and everything from the sandbox, their incubation, through when they become fully, generally available, so, I guess I'll let you start and step back and say when you look at this broad ecosystem, you work with vendors, you've been from the customer side, what's top of mind for you, what's catching your attention? >> So, I guess from a cloud-native perspective, looking at the CNCF, I think you hit the nail on the head. This is not about any individual technology, isn't about just Kubernetes or just Prometheus, or just service mesh. I think the added value of the CNCF, and the way I look at it at least, looking back at my customer perspective, I would've loved to have a organization curate the technology world around me, for me. To help me out with the decisions on a technology perspective that I needed to make to kind of move forward with my IT stack, and with the requirements my customer had, or my organization had, to kind of move that into the next phase. That is where I see the CNCF come in and do their job really well, to help organizations, both on the vendor side as well as on the customer side, take that next step, see around the corner, what's new, what's coming, and also make sure that between different, maybe even competing standards, the right ones surface up and become the de facto standard for organizations to use. >> Yeah, a lot of good thoughts there, Joep, I want to walk through that stack a little bit, but before we do, big statement that Priyanka made, I thought it was a nice umbrella for her keynote, it's a foundation of doers powering end user driven open-source, so as I mentioned, you worked at a service provider, you've done strategies for some other large organizations, what's your thought on the role of how the end users engage with and contribute to open-source? One of the great findings I saw a couple years ago, as you said, it went from open-source being something that people did on the weekend to the sides, to many end users, and of course lots of vendors, have full-time people that their jobs are to contribute and participate in the open-source communities. >> Yeah, I guess that kind of signals a maturity in the market to me, where organizations are investing in open-source because they know they're going to get something out of it. So back in the day, it was not necessarily certain that if you put a lot of effort into an open-source project, for your own gain, for your own purposes, that that would work out, and that with the backing of the CNCF, as well as so many member organizations and end user organizations, I think participating in open-source becomes easier, because there's more of a guarantee that what you put in will kind of circulate, and come out and have value for you, in a different way. Because if you're working on a service mesh, some other organization might be working on Prometheus, or Kubernetes, or another project, and some organizations are now kind of helping each other with the CNCF as the gatekeeper, to move all of those technology stacks forward, instead of everyone doing it for themselves. Maybe even being forced to reinvent the wheel for some of those technology components. >> So let's walk through the stack a little bit, and the layers that are out there, so let's start with Kubernetes, the discussion has been Kubernetes won the container orchestration battles, but whose Kubernetes am I going to use? For a while it was would it be distributions, we've seen every platform basically has at least one Kubernetes option built into it, so doesn't mean you're necessarily using this, before AWS had their own flavor of Kubernetes, there was at least 15 different ways that you could run Kubernetes on top of it, but now they have ECS, they have EKS, even things like Fargate now work with EKS, so interesting innovation and adoption there. But VMware baked Kubernetes into vSphere 7. Red Hat of course, with OpenShift, has thousands of customers and has great momentum, we saw SUSE buy Rancher to help them move along and make sure that they get embedded there. One of the startups you've worked with, Spectro Cloud, helps play into the mix there, so there is no shortage of options, and then from a management standpoint, companies like Microsoft, Google, VMware, Red Hat, all, how do I manage across clusters, because it's not going to just be one Kubernetes that you're going to use, we're expecting that you're going to have multiple options out there, so it sure doesn't sound boring to me yet, or reached full maturity, Joep. What's your take, what advice do you give to people out there when they say "Hey, okay, I'm going to use Kubernetes," I've got hybrid cloud, or I probably have a couple things, how should they be approaching that and thinking about how they engage with Kubernetes? >> So that's a difficult one, because it can go so many different ways, just because, like you said, the market is maturing. Which means, we're kind of back at where we left off virtualization a couple years ago, where we had managers of managers, managing across different data centers, doing the multicloud thing before it was a cloud thing. We have automation doing day two operations, I saw one of the announcements for this week will be a vendor coming out with day two operations automation, to kind of help simplify that stack of Kubernetes in production. And so the best advice I think I have is, don't try to do it all yourself, right, so Kubernetes is still maturing, it is still fairly open, in a sense that you can change everything, which makes it fairly complex to use and configure. So don't try and do that part yourself, necessarily, either use a managed service, which there are a bunch of, Spectro Cloud, for example, as well as Platform9, even the bigger players are now having those platforms. Because in the end, Kubernetes is kind of the foundation of what you're going to do on top of it. Kubernetes itself doesn't have business value in that sense, so spending a lot of time, especially at the beginning of a project, figuring that part out, I don't think makes sense, especially if the risk and the impact of making mistakes is fairly large. Like, make a mistake in a monitoring product, and you'll be able to fix that problem more easily. But make a mistake in a Kubernetes platform, and that's much more difficult, especially because I see organizations build one cluster to rule them all, instead of leveraging what the cloud offers, which is just spin up another cluster. Even spin it up somewhere else, because we can now do the multicloud thing, we can now manage applications across Kubernetes clusters, we can manage many different clusters from a single pane of glass, so there's really no reason anymore to see that Kubernetes thing as something really difficult that you have to do yourself, hence just do it once. Instead, my recommendation would be to look at your processes and figure out, how can I figure out how to have a Kubernetes cluster for everything I do, maybe that's per team, maybe that's per application or per environment, per cloud, and they kind of work from that, because, again, Kubernetes is not the holy grail, it's not the end state, it is a means to an end, to get where we're going with applications, with developing new functionality for customers. >> Well, I think you hit on a really important point, if you look out in the social discussion, sometimes Kubernetes and multicloud get attacked, because when I talk to customers, they shouldn't have a Kubernetes strategy. They have their business strategy, and there are certain things that they're trying to, "How do I make sure everything's secure," and I'm looking at DevSecOps, I need to really have an edge computing strategy because that's going to help my business objectives, and when I look at some of the tools that are going to help and get me there, well, Kubernetes, the service meshes, some of the other tools in the CNCF are going to help me get there, and as you said, I've got managed services, cloud providers, integrators are going to help me build those solutions without me having to spend years to understand how to do that. So yeah, I'd love to hear any interesting projects you're hearing about, edge computing, the security space has gone from super important to even more important if that's possible in 2020. What are you hearing? >> Yeah, so the most interesting part for me is definitely the DevSecOps movement, where we're basically not even allowed to call it DevOps anymore. Security has finally gained a foothold, they're finally able to shift lift the security practices into the realm of developers, simplifying it in a way, and automating it in a way that, it's no longer a trivial task to integrate security. And there's a lot of companies supporting that, even from a Kubernetes perspective, integrating with Kubernetes or integrating with networking products on top of Kubernetes. And I think we finally have reached a moment in time where security is no longer something that we really need to think about. Again, because CNCF is kind of helping us select the right projects, helping us in the right direction, so that making choices in the security realm becomes easier, and becomes a no-brainer for teams, special security teams, as well as the application development teams, to integrate security. >> Well, Joep, I'm glad to hear we've solved security, we can all go home now. That's awesome. But no, in all seriousness, such an important piece, lots of companies spending time on there, and it does feel that we are starting to get the process and organization around, so that we can attack these challenges a little bit more head-on. How 'about service mesh, it's one of those things that's been a little bit contentious the last couple of years, of course ahead of the show, Google is not donating Istio to the foundation, instead, the trademark's open. I'm going to have an interview with Liz Rice to dig into that piece, in the chess moves, Microsoft is now putting out a service mesh, so as Corey Quinn says, the plural of service mesh must be service meeshes, so, it feels like Mr. Meeseeks, for any Rick and Morty fans, we just keep pressing the button and more of them appear, which may cause us more trouble, but, what's your take, do you have a service mesh coming out, Kelsey Hightower had a fun little thing on Twitter about it, what's the state of the state? >> Yeah, so I won't be publishing a service mesh, maybe I'll try and rickroll someone, but we'll see what happens. But service meshes are, they're still a hot topic, it's still one of the spaces where most discussion is kind of geared towards. There is yet to form a single standard, there is yet a single block of companies creating a front to solve that service mesh issue, and I think that's because in the end, service meshes are, from a complexity perspective, they're not mature enough to be able to commoditize into a standard. I think we still need a little while, and maybe ask me this question next year again, and we'll see what happens. But we'll still need a little while to kind of let this market shift and let this market innovate, because I don't think we've reached the end state with service meshes. Also kind of gauging from customer interest and actual production implementations, I don't think this has trickled down from the largest companies that have the most requirements into the smaller companies, the smaller markets, which is something that we do usually see, now Kubernetes is definitely doing that. So in terms of service meshes, I don't think the innovation has reached that endpoint yet, and I think we'll still need a little while, which will mean for the upcoming period, that we'll kind of see this head to head from different companies, trying to gain a foothold, trying to lead a market, introduce their own products. And I think that's okay, and I think the CNCF will continue to kind of curate that experience, up to a point where maybe somewhere in the future we will have a noncompeting standard to finally have something that's commoditized and easy to implement. >> Yeah, it's an interesting piece, one of the things I've always enjoyed when I go to the show is just wander, and the things you bump into are like "Oh my gosh, wow, look at all of these cool little projects." I don't think we are going to stop that Cambrian explosion of innovation and ideas. When you go walk around there's usually over 200 vendors there, and a lot of them are opensource projects. I would say many of them, when you have a discussion with them, I'm not sure that there's necessarily a business behind that project, and that's where you also see maturity in spaces. A year or so ago, in the observability space, open tracing helped pull together a couple of pieces. Storage is starting to mature. Doesn't mean we're going to get down to one standard, there's still a couple of storage engines out there, I have some really good discussions this week to go into that, but it goes from, "Boy, storage is a mess," to "Oh, okay, we have a couple of uses," and just like storage in the data center, there's not a box or a protocol to do anything, it's what's your use case, what performance, what clouds, what environments are you living on, and therefore you can do that. So it's good to see lots of new things added, but then they mature out and they consolidate, and as you said, the CNCF is help giving those roadmaps, those maps, the landscapes, which boy, if you go online, they have some really good tools. Go to CNCF, the website, and you can look through, Cheryl Hung put one, I'm trying to remember which, it's basically a bullseye of the ones that, here's the one that's fully baked, and here's the ones that are making its way through, and the customer feedback, and they're going to do more of those to help give guidance, because no one solution is going to fit everybody's needs, and you have these spectrums of offerings. Wild card for you, are there any interesting projects out there, new things that you're hearing about, what areas should people be poking around that might not be the top level big things? >> So, I guess for me, that's really personal because I'm still kind of an infrastructure geek in that sense. So one of the things that really surprised me was a more traditional vendor, Zerto in this case, with a fantastic solution, finally, they're doing data protection for Kubernetes. And my recommendation would be to look at companies like Zerto in the data protection space, finally making that move into containers, because even though we've completed the discussion, stateful versus stateless, there's still a lot to be said for thinking about data protection, if you're going to go all-in into containers and into Kubernetes, so that was one that really provoked my thoughts, I really was interested in seeing, "Okay, what's Zerto doing in this list of CNCF members?" And for that matter, I think other vendors like VMware, like Red Hat, like other companies that are moving into this space, with a regained trust in their solutions, is something that I think is really interesting, and absolutely worth exploring during the event, to see what those more traditional companies, to use the term, are doing to innovate with their solutions, and kind of helping the CNCF and the cloud data world, become more enterprise-ready, and that's kind of the point I'm trying to make, where for the longest time, we've had this cloud-native versus traditional, but I always thought of it like cloud-native versus enterprise-ready, or proven technology. This is kind of for the developers doing a new thing, this is for the IT operations teams, and we're kind of seeing those two groups, at least from a technology perspective, being fused into one new blood group, making their way forward and innovating with those technologies. So, I think it's interesting to look at the existing vendors and the CNCF members to see where they're innovating. >> Well, Joep, you connected a dotted line between the cloud-native insights program that I've been doing, you were actually my first guest on that. We've got a couple of months worth of episodes out there, and it is closing that gap between what the developers are doing and what the enterprise was, so absolutely, there's architectural pieces, Joep, like you, I'm an infrastructure geek, so I come from those pieces, and there was that gap between, I'm going to use VMs, and now I'm using containers, and I'm looking at things like serverless too, how do we built applications, and is it that bottom-up versus top-down, and what a company's needs, they need to be able to react fast, they need to be able to change along the way, they need to be able to take advantage of the innovation that ecosystems like this have, so, I love the emphasis CNCF has, making sure that the end users are going to have a strong voice, because as you said, the big companies have come in, not just VMware and Red Hat, but, IBM and Dell are behind those two companies, and HPE, Cisco, many others out there that the behemoths out there, not to mention of course the big hyperscale clouds that helped start this, we wouldn't have a lot of this without Google kicking off with Kubernetes, AWS front and center, and an active participant here, and if you talk to the customers, they're all leveraging it, and of course Microsoft, so it is a robust, big ecosystem, Joep, thank you so much for helping us dig into it, definitely hope we can have events back in the Netherlands in the near future, and great to see you as always. >> Thanks for having me. >> All right, stay tuned, we have, as I said, full spectrum of interviews from theCUBE, they'll be broadcasting during the three days, and of course go to theCUBE.net to catch all of what we've done this year at the show, as well as all the back history. Feel free to reach out to me, I'm @Stu on Twitter, and thank you, as always, for watching theCUBE. (calm music)