(Upbeat music) >> From the Hard Rock hotel in Las Vegas, its theCUBE! Covering the Hosho Con 2018, brought to you by Hosho. >> Okay, welcome back every one, this is theCUBE's exclusive coverage here live in Las Vegas for Hosho Con, the first inaugural event where security and block chain conferences is happening, it's the first of its kind where practitioners and experts get together to talk about the future, and solve some of the problems in massive growth coming they got a lot of them. Its good new and bad news but I guess the most important thing is security again, the first time ever security conference has been dedicated to all the top shelf conversations that need to be had and the news here are covering. Our next guest Greg Pinn who's the head of strategy and products for iComply Investor Services. Great to have you thanks for joining us. >> Very nice to be here >> So, we were just talking before we came on camera about you know all the kind of new things that are emerging with compliance and all these kind of in between your toes details and nuances and trip wires that have been solved in the traditional commercial world, that have gotten quite boring if you will, boring's good, boring means it works. It's a system. But the new model with Block Chain and Token Economics is, whole new models. >> Yeah I think what's so exciting about this is that in the Fiat world, from the traditional financial market, everyone is so entrenched in what they've been doing for 20, 30, 40 years. And the costs are enormous. And Block Chain, Crypto coming in now is like we don't have to do it that way. We have to do compliance. Compliance matters, it's important and it's your legal obligation. But you don't have to do it in the same sort of very expensive, very human way that people have been doing it in the past. >> And Cloud Computing, DevOps model of software proved that automations a wonderful thing >> Right >> So now you have automation and you have potentially AI opportunities to automate things. >> And what we've seen is huge increases in technology, in around machine learning and clustering of data, to eliminate a lot of the human process of doing AML, KYC verification, and that's driving down costs significantly. We can take advantage of that in the Crypto Space because we don't have thousands of people and millions of millions of dollars of infrastructure that we've built up, we're starting fresh, we can learn from the past and throw away all the stuff that doesn't work, or isn't needed anymore. >> Alright let's talk about the emerging state of regulation in the Block Chain community and industry. Where are we? What's the current state of the union? If you had to describe the progress bar you know with zero meaning negative to ten being it's working, where are we? What is the state of >> I think if you'd asked me a year ago I think negative would've been the answer. A year ago there was still a big fight in Crypto about do we even want to be part of Compliance, we don't want to have any involvement in that. Because it was still that sort of, Crypto goes beyond global borders, it goes beyond any of that. What's happened now is people have realized, it doesn't matter if you're dealing in Crypto Currency or traditional currency, or donkeys or mules or computers or whatever, if you're trading goods for value, that falls under Regulatory Landscape and that's what we're hearing from the SCC, from FinCEN, from all the regulators. It's not the form it's the function. So if you've got a security token, that's a security, whether you want it to be or not. You can call it whatever you want, but you're still going to be regulated just like a security. >> And I think most entrepreneurs welcome clarity. People want clarity, they don't want to have to be zigging when they should be zagging. And this is where we see domicile problem. Today it's Malta, tomorrow it's Bermuda. Where is it? I mean no one knows it's a moving train, the big countries have to get this right. >> A hundred percent. And beyond that what we're seeing, what's very, very frustrating for a market as global as this is it's not just country-level jurisdiction, the US you've got State-level jurisdiction as well. Makes it very, very hard when you're running a global business if you're an exchange, if you're any sort of global, with a global client reach. Managing that regulation is very, very difficult. >> You know I interviewed Grant Fondo who's with Goodwin Law Firm, Goodwin Proctor they call it Goodwin now, he's a regulatory guy, and they've been very on the right side of this whole SCC thing in the US. But it points to the issue at hand which is there's a set of people in the communities, that are there to be service providers. Law Firms, Tax, Accounting, Compliance. Then you got technology regulation. Not just financial you have GDPR, it's a nightmare! So okay, do we even need GDPR with Block Chain? So again you have this framework of this growth of internet society, now overlaid to a technical shift. That's going to impact not only technology standards and regulations but the business side of it where you have these needed service providers. Which is automated? Which isn't automated? What's your take on all of this? >> I agree with you a hundred percent, and I think what's helpful is to take a step back and realize while compliance is expensive and a pain and a distraction for a lot of businesses. The end of the day it saves people's lives. And this is what, just like if someone was shooting a gun as you were running down the street, in your house, you're going to call the police, that is what financial institutions are doing to save these industries and individuals that are impacted by this. A lot of it from a Crypto Currency perspective, we have a responsibility because so much of what the average person perception is, is Ross Ulbricht and Silk Road. And we have to dig our way out of that sort of mentality of Crypto being used for negative things. And so that makes it even more important that we are ultra, ultra compliant and what's great about this is there's a lot great opportunities for new vendors to come into the space and harness what existed whether that's harnessing data, different data channels, different IDDent verification channels and creating integrated solutions that enable businesses to just pull this in as a service. It shouldn't be your business, if you're in exchange, compliance is something you have to do. It should not become your business. >> Yeah I totally agree, and it becomes table stakes not a differentiator. >> Exactly >> That's the big thing I learned this week it's people saying security's a differentiator, compliance is a, nah, nah, I have standards. Alright so I got to ask you about the, you know I always had been on the biased side of entrepreneurship which is when you hear regulations and you go whoa, that's going to really stunt the growth of organic innovation. >> Right. But in this case the regulatory peace has been a driver for innovation. Can you share some opinions and commentary on that because I think there's a big disconnect. And I used to be the one saying regulation sucks, let the entrepreneurs do their thing. But now more than ever there's a dynamic, can you just share your thoughts on this? >> Yeah, I mean regulators are not here to drive innovation. That's not what their job is. What's been so interesting about this is that because of regulations coming to Crypto along with these other things, it's allowing businesses to solve the problem of compliance in very exciting, interesting ways. And it's driving a lot of technologies around machine learning, what people like IBM Watson are doing around machine learning is becoming very, very powerful in compliance to reduce that cost. The cost is enormous. An average financial institution is spending 15 percent. Upwards of 15 percent of their revenue per year on compliance. So anything they can do to reduce that is huge. >> Huge numbers >> And we don't want Crypto to get to that point. >> Yeah and I would also love to get the percentage of how much fraud is being eaten into the equation too. I'm sure there's a big number there. Okay so on the compliance side, what are the hard problems that the industry is solving, trying to solve? Could you stack rank the >> I think number one: complexity. Complexity is the biggest. Because you're talking about verifying against sanctions, verifying against politically exposed persons, law enforcement lists, different geographical distributions, doing address verification, Block Chain forensics. The list just stacks and stacks and stacks on the complexity >> It's a huge list. >> It's a huge list >> And it's not easy either. These are hard problems. >> Right, these are very, very difficult problems and there's no one expert for all of these things. And so it's a matter of bringing those things together, and figuring out how can you combine the different levels of expertise into a single platform? And that's where we're going. We're going to that point where it's a single shop, you want to release an ICO? You're an exchange and you need to do compliance? All of that should be able to be handled as a single interface where it takes it off of your hands. The liability is still with the issuer. It's still with the exchange, they can't step away from their regulatory liability, but there's a lot that they can do to ease that burden. And to also just ignore and down-risk people that just don't matter. So many people are in Crypto, not the people here, but there's so many people in Crypto, you buy one tenth of a Bitcoin, you buy a couple of Ether, and you're like okay that was fine. Do we really need to focus our time on those people? Probably not. And a lot of the >> There's a lot big money moving from big players acting in concert. >> And that's where we need to be focused. Is the big money, we need to be focused on where terrorists are acting within Block Chain. That's not to say that Block Chain and Crypto is a terrorist vehicle. But we can't ignore the reality. >> And I think the other thing too is also the adversary side of it is interesting because if you look at what's happening with all these hacks, you're talking about billions of dollars in the hands now of these groups that are highly funded, highly coordinated, funded basically underbelly companies. They get their hands on a quantum computer, I was just talking to another guy earlier today he's like if you don't have a sixteen character password, you're toast. And now it's twenty four so, at what point do they have the resources as the fly wheel of profit rolls in on the hacks. >> You know, one of the interesting things we talk about a lot is we have to rely on the larger community. We can't, I can't, you can't solve all of the problems. Quantum computing's a great example. That's where we look for things like two-factor authentication and other technologies that are coming out to solve those problems. And we need to, as a community, acknowledge That these are real problems and we've identified potential solutions. Whether that's in academia, whether it's in something like a foundation like the Ethereum Foundation, or in the private sector. And it's a combination of those things that are really driving a lot of it's innovation. >> Alright so what's the agenda for the industry if you had to have a list this long, how do you see this playing out tactically over the next twelve months or so as people start to get clarity. Certainly SCC is really being proactive not trying to step on everybody at the same time put some guard rails down and bumpers to let people kind of bounce around within some frame work. >> I think the SCC has taken a very cautious approach. We've seen cease and desist letters, we've seen notifications we haven't seen enormous finds like we see in Fiat. Look at HSBC, look at Deutsche Bank, billions of dollars in fines from the SCC. We're not seeing that I think the SCC understands that we're all sort of moving together. At the same time their responsibility is to protect the investor. And to make sure that people aren't being >> Duped. >> Duped. I was trying to find an appropriate term. >> Suckered >> Suckered, duped. And we've seen that a lot in ICOs but we're not seeing it, the headlines are so often wrong. You see this is an ICO scam. Often it's not a scam, it's just the project failed. Like lots of businesses fail. That doesn't mean it's a scam, it means it was a business fail. >> Well if institutional investors have the maturity to handle they can deal with failures, but not the average individual investor. >> Right, which is why in the US we have the credit investor, where you have to be wealthy enough to be able to sustain the loss. They don't have that anywhere else. So globally the SCC care and the other financial intelligence units globally are monitoring this so we make that we're protecting the investor. To get back to your question, where do I see this going? I think we're going to need to fast track our way towards a more compliant regime. And this I see as being a step-wise approach. Starting with sanctions making sure everyone is screened against the sanction list. Then we're going to start getting more into politically exposed persons, more adverse media, more enhanced due diligence. Where we really have that suite of products and identify the risk based on the type of business and the type of relationship. And that's where we need to get fast. And I don't think the SCC is going to say yeah be there by 2024, it's going to be be there by next year. I was talking to Hartej, he was one of the co founders of Hosho and we were talking on TheCUBE about self-regulation and some self-policing. I think this was self-governed, certainly in the short term. And we were talking about the hallway conversations and this is one of the things that he's been hearing. So the question for you Greg is: What hallway conversations have you overheard, that you kind of wanted to jump into or you found interesting. And what hallway conversations that you've been involved in here. >> I think the most interesting, I mentioned this on a panel and got into a great conversation afterwards, about the importance of the Crypto community reaching out to the traditional financial services community. Because it's almost like looking across the aisle, and saying look we're trying to solve real business problems, we're trying to create great innovative things, you don't have to be scared. And I was speaking at a traditional financial conference last week and there it was all people like this Crypto is scary and it's I don't understand it. >> You see Warren Buffett and Bill Gates poopooing it and freak out. >> But we have an obligation then, we can't wait for them to realize what needs to be done. We need to go to them and say, look we're not scary, look let's sit down. If you can get a seat at a table with a head of compliance at a top tier bank, sit down with them and say let me explain what my Crypto ATM is doing and why it's not a vehicle for money laundering, and how it can be used safely. Those sorts of things are so critical and as a community for us to reach across the aisle, and bring those people over. >> Yeah bridge the cultures. >> Exactly. Because it's night and day cultures but I think there's a lot more in common. >> And both need each other. >> Exactly. >> Alright so great job, thanks for coming on and sharing your insights. >> Thank you so much. >> If you have a quick plug on what you're working on, give the plug for the company. >> Sure, so iComply Investor Services is here to help people who want to issue ICOs, do that in a very compliant way. Because you shouldn't have to worry about all of your compliance and KYC and Block Chain Forensics and all that, you should be worried about raising money for your company and building a product. >> Alright final question since I got you here 'cause this is on my mind. Security token, has got traction, people like it 'cause no problem being security. What are they putting against that these days, what trend are you seeing in the security token? Are they doing equity? I'm hearing from hedge funds and other investors they'll want a little bit of equity preferred and or common, plus the token. Or should the token be equity conversion? What is some of the strings you're seeing? >> You know I think it' really just a matter of do you want paper or do you want a token? Just like a stock certificate is worth nothing without the legal framework behind it. A security token is the same way. So we're seeing where some people are wanting to do equity, where some of their investors want the traditional certificate. And some are fine with the token. We're seeing people do hybrid tokens where it morphs from security to utility or back. Where they're doing very creative things. It's what's so great about the Ethereum Network and the Smart Contracts, is there are all of these great options. The hard part then is, how do you fit those options into regular framework. >> And defending that against being a security, and this is interesting because if it converts to a utility, isn't that what security is? >> So that's the question. >> Then an IPO is an, again this is new territory. >> Right, and very exciting territory. It's an exciting time to be involved in this industry. >> In fact I just had an AE3B Election on tokens, first time ever. >> Yeah it's an amazing state that we're in. Where serious investors are saying yeah token's great for me. Give me the RC20 I'll stick it in my MetaMask Wallet, it's unbelievable where we are. And only more exciting things to come. >> Greg Pinn, thanks for coming on and sharing your insights. TheCUBE covers live here in Las Vegas, Hoshocon, the first security conference in the industry of its kind where everyone's getting together talking about security. Not a big ICO thing, in fact it's all technical, all business all people shaping the industry, it's a community it's TheCUBE coverage here in Las Vegas. Stay with us for more after this short break. (Upbeat music)

>> Announcer: Live from Nassau in the Bahamas it's The Cube covering Polycon 18 brought to you Polymath. >> Hello, welcome to The Cube for a special Cube event, our first kick off for our cryptocurrency, Blockchain, decentralized computing world that we know as Bitcoin, Ethereum, Blockchain and all the rest. I'm John Furrier, Dave Vellante. We're here previewing the conference/\. We'll be live tomorrow and Friday but were here down getting ready for the big festivities which is tonight's opening keynotes. We had the co-founder of Ethereum, Anthony Diiorio, and then Brock Pierce coming on. He also is a chairman of the Bitcoin Foundation. Luminaries as well as a bunch of other great guests, Bill Tai from California, a friend of The Cube's. This is a game changing event, Dave. You and I have talked about this on The Cube many times. The waves of innovation come, you know, this big once in a generation, maybe centuries. We're seeing one that I think is not as even big as the other ones, bigger. You combine the PC Revolution. I was just texting Michael Dell earlier today and said, "This feels like the PC Revolution." A bunch of pioneers coming together but it's got a different vibe. It's bigger. It's like the combination of the internet and PC Revolution all rolled into one with a community vibe on it. So, and we're going to have tons of coverage on this. What I want to ask you, Dave, directly is you've seen many waves and we work with and we cover some of the old guard, older companies like Dell EMC, HPE, Oracle, IBM, Microsoft and they're doing really good work pivoting and trying to be ready for this new wave. It's just on Blockchain, it's just how the world works, Cloud, you know, IoT but decentralized cannot be ignored. So, some think this is a blind spot to these legacy and emerging vendors changing vendors like Oracle and IBM and HPE and Dell Technologies. Are they ready? Do you think they're ready? Do you think they even understand what's coming? And people squabble over Cloud market share and it's just funny, right? It's like there's a bigger thing coming over the top. >> Well, first thing I got to say is I got to give you props as my partner because you've been covering, you know, Blockchain, Bitcoin on SiliconANGLE since I don't know -- >> John: 2010. >> 2010, when I first met you, right. And so once again you are sort of ahead of the curve. I feel like we're at our first Hadoop World, you know, back in 2010. And so, props to you and the SiliconeANGLE team. To answer your question, no. No, they're not ready and to me it's not even about just Blockchain. I mean, Blockchain technology they can adopt. The bigger issue is digital disruption. And digital disruption is all about the data at the core of the organization and business models that are built around data. And if you think about the history of companies, it's human expertise and data's bolted on. We've seen this time and time again but if you look at the top five market cap companies, Facebook, Amazon, Google, et cetera, they're data companies. Data is at the center and they take human expertise and wrap it around there. So, the future is going to be about innovation with data, with artificial intelligence and Cloud economics and the old guard doesn't have those things. Blockchain fits in there. To me Blockchain is about building out a new distributed web and on top of the old web and rewarding those who were building it. So, it's a new form open-source where the builders get paid. >> But it's also decentralized and you have a value store, value creation capture model that has all the wrappings of what we traditionally see in a centralized database or even Cloud. You need networks, you need storage, you need databases, you need tokens, which is a form of data. So token economics, I mean, it's a new value economy, Dave. I mean, I just don't, I feel like the, I just, from my perspective, I just don't think those guys are seeing it. >> No and so it's not only those guys. It's the most of the world. I mean, you turn on CNBC and Buffet's on there saying this is going to end badly and there's negative, you know, trade press about, you know, Bitcoin and Silk Road and all that stuff. What most of the world is missing, and that makes people run away, but this is happening, it's real. It's going be the foundation for a next generation internet. It's happening, you see it all the time. Developers built the internet. Developers are going to rebuild the internet on top of this. So, I would suggest that people just try to squint through or squint passed the negative press and try to really understand what this trend is all about and how it's going to fundamentally change the internet and change the world. >> Well, there's negative press that's worthy. There's a lot of scams out there. There's security issues >> Sure >> but these are evolutionary problem spaces that can be solved. One, the scammers are going to be vetted out, the bubble bursting but the real value, creation is going to come from developers and that, to me, is what I hear you saying as your main point. >> No question about it. And I think that that, you know, there's lots of challenges. This stuff is not easy. First of all, who would've ever thought that something like Ethereum could even have been built, this kind of distributed infrastructure? I mean, it's very, very challenging. Of course we know about the scaling problems, the latency issues, all that stuff but these are problems that smart people are going to go attack and solve. And again I emphasize, it's the new form of, remember the old open systems, right? Unix and open systems. Well fast forward passed open-source, which the internet was built on open-source. Think about Linnux, everything's built on Linnux. But today developers who are building these new protocols are actually going to get paid to that. Guys like Anthony, you know, who made hundreds of millions -- >> Anthony Diiorio, co-founder of Ethereum, doing Jaxx wallet as part of Decentral. Great use case. He's paying it forward and I think the community here is a real dynamic and I think what we learned at The Cube, Dave, is the communities matter and now, more than ever they're actually having an input. Look what open-source has done to the software business over the past three decades, okay? Completely revolutionized the world we live in. So if you take the open-source apply those principals to, whether it's content media or decentralized infrastructure and applications, it's going to be a haven of innovation. >> Well and if you think about this, too, folks. Is that, you know, the centralized model has essentially co-opted all this innovation in the last 15 years, right? They've won. Closed won, Facebook won, they killed RSS. >> Well, Facebook's not winning now. They're under a lot of pressure because they screwed the election over and the data that they're using, some will argue, that, when I use Facebook, okay? Facebook's great, I get a free app, I let them have my data 'cause I want to connect with my friends but they're throwing elections off. I didn't bargain for that. The context has changed. So, to me, the shift of user data is going to move into the hands of the users. Do you agree with that statement? >> Yes, no question. And the other thing, just to finish my thought -- >> That's not good for Facebook. >> And we've talked about this, John. Protocol and development has stagnated, you know? Gmail is built on SMTP, you know, HTTP, DNS, these are all protocols that were developed by governments, and academia and the big guys just co-opted them and so, protocol development stagnated. What you need to understand about Blockchain is it bring back innovation -- >> Well, Anthony Diiorio said on my interview with him, one-on-one, that protocol developers are the most in demand role because those big guys take in co-oping those protocols, Dave, as you pointed out, is causing a revolution. It's almost like the 60s for tech. It's like there is a ground swell. I see it, I feel it. Not just a wave of innovation but the actors and the people involved look at this as a liberating opportunity to free the centralized forces that are quite frankly holding the world back. >> And I want to, this is very important and it was really epiphany when it hit me, is if you wanted to invest in TCP/IP, back in the day, how would you do that? You couldn't invest in TCP/IP. You could maybe invest in companies -- >> John: Cisco. (laughs) >> Yeah, can invest in companies. Okay, but you and I couldn't have gotten in early on Cisco, right? It was all the insiders. Today, developers who are building out these protocols, they can own the protocol. That's a form of investment and they got, essentially, equity in that token. >> Dave, we're going to be doing a lot of crypto shows and Blockchain shows because we're talking about the decentralization of the world. This is the future of our globe and work and play. What are you looking for, as we go down and knock down these shows, as The Cube goes out on this new mission? >> Well, I think Anthony kind of hinted at this. Is he's looking at infrastructure. It's like the early days of the internet with, you know, the pickaxe guys, you know, made all the money. It's the infrastructure that's getting built out. So, I want to see how that develops and how that sets the foundation, the platform for distributed applications, number one. Number two is I want to understand some of these challenges and how they're going to be addressed. The scaling issues, the latency problems, some of the, you know, nitty gritty technical challenges, who's working on those? And the third is, what's the right investment profile? How are the investors at this conference and other conferences going about deciding what to invest in? Right? How do they squint through quality and garbage? >> Well, I'm going to be heading to a special investor event. Dave, I'm going to put my ear to the ground and of course The Cube will go wherever it takes to get the story, whether it's the Bahamas. Not a bad gig here but important. We're going to get the most important stories and share that with you. And continue our mission of getting this content out in the open, shining the light on relevance and the right reputable people. Dave, always great. >> Thanks, John. >> And looking forward to a great week. (techno music)

(upbeat dramatic music) >> Hello, everyone, welcome to the Cube Conversation, here in Palo Alto Studios, for The Cube. I'm John Furrier, the cohost of The Cube, co-founder of Silicon Angle Media. We are here for Thought Leader Thursday, with Mitzi Chang. She's a securities attorney and partner at Goodwin. Formerly Goodwin Proctor, Goodwin Proctor's the name. Again, great to have you on. Thanks for coming in and talking about some of the securities around Blockchain ICO's. You guys doing a lot of work, thanks for coming in. >> Thanks for having me. >> So, obviously, Blockchain is the hottest thing we're seeing. AI, obviously, is hot as well, IOT, all of this about a new, decentralized internet. And it's the wild west. And we know because we're looking at doing our Blockchain and tokens for The Cube and all that good stuff. So we're totally love the new environment. Everyone, all the light tier one entrepreneurs are licking their chops and going, ah, man, good action. And a lot of the thought leaders are saying this is a fundamental shift. So it's cool, we get that. But now, okay, is the technology ahead of the law? And, just today, the news is breaking that the SEC is now putting a clampdown on a new thing, celebrity endorsements, into ICO's initial coin offering. So, yeah, you're a securities attorney. You have to sit back there and, like, wire these deals together. >> Right. >> What's going on, I mean, is the law behind the tech? How are you guys managing it, what's the flow look like for you? >> Yeah, I mean, I think that the law is almost always behind the technology, right. That's just how it works. I mean, from our perspective, you know, we represent tons of companies on normal securities law, or securities issuances. And this can be similar, depending on how the token is structured. So, you know, the SEC said in its July guidance that tokens can be securities, depending on the facts. A part of what we do, as lawyers, is review the facts of the token, right. What does the token do, how do you treat the token, how are you issuing the token, how are you marketing the token? Are there securities-like features of the token? So, for example. Does it have profit sharing features? Does it have voting features? Those are pretty obviously more security-like features. But, also, you know, in the token ecosystem, are you treating it like you would equity? So, for example, you know, are you putting vesting conditions on there? Are you marketing it to VC's who may never use your network? Those are some factors that make it look like more security. Versus a utility. >> You guys also, I mean, I've been in Silicon Valley now 18 years, and been an entrepreneur for longer, and entrepreneurs are always three feet in a cloud of dust, breaking things in the bowl in the China shop, as they say, and have to get the lawyers to kind of clean things up or set things straight. Securities is a known practice, but now there's some kind of bumps in the road but still people are moving forward. So I got to ask you, what's the test? I mean, we hear things like the Howey Test. >> Mm hmm. >> What are some of the things that entrepreneurs should know around where to pay attention? Kind of where to put their head down and drive because there are known practices, on the security site you mentioned, a few of them, but where's the test? What's the one thing, is it the Howey Test? What is this Howey Test concept? And what other things should entrepreneurs know about? >> Right, so I think, you know, the Howey Test is a test that was in CaseLab that basically explains what is an investment contract. And an investment contract is what is considered a security. So, basically, the payment of money, you know, based on the efforts of others, where you kind of have the reasonable expectation of obtaining profits, right, from those efforts of others, versus yourself. So that's the general gist of it. So I think, from a securities law perspective, that's really important. Because there has been so much focus from the SEC. But there's also other regulatory agencies who are focused on this. Some of those are, you know, money transmitter laws. You know, there's potential commodities law issues. So there's definitely other regulatory regimes that could implicate the token. Or the token could be implicated in that regime. But I think the securities law one is one that I focus on. >> Yeah. >> And it's important to look at. >> Alright, so the first test is, okay, obviously, new internet infrastructure, different conversation, but the real law test is, is this token going to be an investment making money. >> Right. >> Or is it going to be a utility. One that provides values to the participants. Did I get that right? >> Yes, I would say, generally speaking, right. Is the token, you know, is it a use case? Or is it an investment? Am I expecting profits from that token? Or am I using it like an access fee or a membership? Or to obtain services. >> An arcade game, as Grant Fonda would say. >> Exactly. An arcade game is probably your best example. >> Yeah. Okay, so then the next test is I've heard of some things I'd like to get you to explain. What anti-money laundering or AML is. And KYC, Know Your Customer. And, obviously, Bitcoin has been kind of, you know, we've heard Silk Road stories, underbelly, a lot of bad things are happening, but anonymous is good. But here, financially, Know Your Customer is a specific thing that means something and then AML, anti-money laundering, how does that factor into this whole thing? >> Yeah, so I think for, you know, when you open a bank account, for example, right, your bank wants to know who you are. They'll obtain certain information from you. Whether it's your drivers license or passport. Where you obtained your funds. I mean, that's part of the Know Your Customer, anti-money laundering activity, right. >> And identity behind the, before you sign the thing. >> Right. So part of it is because cryptocurrency can be very anonymous, right. There are anonymous wallets that you're sending cryptocurrency to and from, you don't know who these people are. So part of it is making sure that you understand who your purchasers are. You don't want to run afoul of, you know, an anti-terrorist type, you know, regulations. The US government has several lists that they have online that you can search for names of folks that you don't need to be doing business with. So there's a lot of structures already in place. And part of that is just understanding who your purchasers are. >> And these are requirements on certain things, and the anti-money laundering exposes just audit trailing and certain things that you got to have as compliance things. >> Correct, correct. And so I think, in America, we don't normally, I would say if you were kind of outside of the US, this is probably a little bit more normal, right. People are used to doing it. I think, in America, maybe we're not as used to it. But these are not kind of new guidelines. This has always existed. >> Alright, so sometimes entrepreneurs are fast and loose with their, ah, screw the anti-money laundering thing. Or they get, I don't understand, that's too much work, I don't understand it. >> Yeah. >> So they blow it off. When do they have to not blow it off? When do you have to worry about, like, all these anti-money laundering things? Cause you have to, obviously, do more work. >> Right. >> Got to make sure you're checking the boxes, complying. That probably has overhead, costs money, or maybe write some new software. So we've been recommending that all of our clients who are in the token space and kind of obtaining, you know, digital currency, go through KYC and AML. Some of the digital currency exchanges, right. So in order, when you're receiving your digital currency and you need an account, >> Mm hmm. >> in order to exchange the digital currency into US dollars, for example, it's essentially like opening a bank account. So they're going to ask for all of the information with respect to how did you receive your digital currency. So part of that is you need to have that in place prior to actually launching your token sale so that you can kind of follow the flow of funds. >> So I was trying to find this image I would put up but I can't find it cause I'm on this computer, but I saw a thing on a conference, might have been Block Con, that you guys were at. I think you guys sponsored that event. Where the cost of doing an ICO can range from, they said, on the cheap end, they use the word cheap, not inexpensive, cheap, probably implying not get a good lawyer, a hundred K up to 750 thousand dollars. So, range of cost between hundred thousand and 750 thousand. From cheap to done right. >> Right. Right. >> Or expensive. Is that right or is that, what's the cost ranges? >> Yeah, I mean, I think there's a lot of players in the ecosystem, right. So there's the lawyers. And typically lawyers bill by the hour, so that's kind of how much time, you know, we're kind of looking at documents and things and helping you structure. There's the tax accountants. So part of that is also, you know, how much time they're spending. But some of it can be very complicated from a tax structuring perspective. Then there's the technical people, right. Unless you have that in house. To actually build your Blockchain network. Kind of help you with all of that, you know, the technical aspects of it. So software engineers, for example. Then there's the ICO consultants. Someone to kind of help you manage, quarterback the process, maybe help you with marketing the tokens to certain different websites, or help you with that. So, all of those together, I mean, yes, it can be very expensive, it kind of depends on how much of that you want to outsource. And how much of that you can do yourself. Obviously, you can't really do all that stuff yourself. >> So it's in the ranges. It could be in the ranges. >> Yeah. I mean, tax alone could kill you if you're looking at all kinds of complicated schemes or licensing agreements. >> Right. >> I mean. >> So all that, you want to make sure you're structuring the entity appropriately before you start it. >> Okay, so where do you get involved? So let's just say that, let's just walk through the day and day operations of, say, Goodwin. Okay, I've got to client. >> Yep. >> And, okay, you come in for the securities component. What does that mean? You just make sure they're incorporated properly? All the laws on the stock and then the tokens treatment? What specific things do you do? >> Sure, so, you know, once we kind of have brought the client in, after our conflicts procedures, and we've agreed to the engagement, part of depends on where they are. If they don't have a company, we'll help you form the company, right. And make sure that all of those startup documents have been appropriately done. Sometimes people have already, they're, you know, an actual company, right. We don't need to form them, they're already in existence. So then we look at pass the formation items and we look at the token issuance. So we'll look at your white paper. The white paper typically describes how the token works in the ecosystem and kind of what the company. >> You get involved in that, just to kind of check if it sounds. >> From a structuring perspective, right. Do we think this is a security? Or do we think it is leaning towards utility? And the SEC obviously has not said, what is a utility and what is a security. >> So that's the gray area? >> Yes. >> So the gray area is watch the language, be careful what you say. >> But also what you do, right. It's not just what you say, it's also what you do. So part of it is talking to the clients about what are you thinking, how are you envisioning this? Where can we help you kind of restructure or decrease your risks? >> And you guys become a safety net and help defend that too, obviously, as attorneys. But the clients still own, >> Correct. I mean, part of it is we give you advice. And the clients can take or not take our advice. But that's what we're here for. >> Do you guys offer a legal opinions behind these? I'm sure you don't. (laughs) >> We don't offer legal opinions. You know, we do do research memos on kind of where we think your token lies. But we don't do legal opinions. >> So have you guys talked to the SEC at Goodwin? I mean, do you guys have conversations? I don't know what goes on behind the curtain of the big law firms but I'm assuming that you guys are up to speed on all the notes and everything, but do you guys actually talk to people at the SEC? Is that how it works? Cause this is a cutting edge area, I'm sure you guys have to be on the cutting edge. >> Yeah, I mean we haven't had any clients, knock on wood, that have had to go through any of the SEC investigations on this. So, you know, we have not had, on behalf of our clients, had to talk to them about it. >> So that's good news, you guys doing good. >> Yeah. >> I know you guys doing over close to 30 plus ICO's, so congratulations. Is there a pattern that you've seen, from a legal standpoint, that you've seen emerging? Obviously, it's pretty clear, out in the market place, certainly the celebrity endorsement, Paris Hilton to the boxer dude and all kinds of stuff was going on where people were endorsing >> Right. >> things, so. Kind of, I don't want to say pump and dump, but that's a word that's been used in the dot com bubble, but people are saying a lot of these things are scams. And the majority of them aren't going to work out. So we've said, editorially here on The Cube and Silicon Angle, that failure doesn't mean scams. We had some failures, but certainly there are some scams. So has that caused people to pull back a little bit? And say, whoa, we're not going to go forward fast enough? Or is nothing stopping this, what's the pattern? >> Yeah, I would say, compared to a year ago, where there was no SEC guidance, right, there was no guidance from other regulator agencies, people were definitely going very quickly. I think now what we're seeing are more sophisticated clients. Clients who really want to make sure that they're following all of the legal requirements to the best that they can, given the grayness in the securities laws and other regimes. And a lot more of a thoughtfulness about, well, let's make sure that this works, right, we're not going to get into trouble. >> Have you seen any co-mingling between some of the traditional VC, venture capital investors or hedge funds, they're emerging, who want to come in and participate on the pure equity side, or the preferred stock or, more common, mostly prefer we see them. But, also, play in the tokens. Is there co-existence between participation? Or is it mostly they line up on the preferred and then let the tokens go here? Is there a pattern there that you see around how those securities are playing out? >> Yeah, I think a lot of people see value in the token ecosystem and they want to participate in that. And a lot of our venture capital clients, or our token clients who have VC investors, they want to participate. So we are definitely seeing people are very excited about it and want to kind of be a part of it. >> What about the presale concept? We're seeing a lot of people jump on the presale bandwagon because it allows them to, you know. It's not an inexpensive process. You guys, obviously, don't work for free. You guys have deals where, obviously, startups can come in. And you guys have a great startup program, I could testify that. You guys do have a good community participation there. But, at the end of the day, this is a legitimate process now. >> Mm Hmm. >> It costs money. You guys have to get paid. And service provides, like the tax attorneys got to get paid. So there's a lot, we see a lot of entrepreneurs doing that's presale. Where they try to offer this kind of discount. How is that working out and has that been going well? >> Yeah, I mean I think, you know, while the SEC has not commented on this, the practitioners and kind of the ecosystem, most people, I think, are considering that presale agreement prior to a network actually being live as a security. And, so, people are going out to accredited investors, sometimes that's VC, sometimes that's high net worth individuals. That's usually done through a SAFT, which is, it stands for Simple Agreement for Future Tokens, or a presale contribution agreement. So part of that is it's like a, you can liken it to a preferred stock financing. >> It's a known process. >> But it's not preferred stock. >> But it's a known vehicle for financing. >> Correct. >> It's not like it's tied to the ICO in a new vehicle. It's just like, okay, we're going to do something down the road, there's risks associated, all that stuff. >> Right, it's an investment contract. I'm giving you a million dollars to invest, to build up the platform. At the end of, when the platform launches, and, hopefully, when the network has utility and your token has utility, then you'll receive tokens. >> And this is good for innovation, because it gets everyone rolling a little bit. Is that, that kind of seems to be the pattern that I'm seeing. It's like, you know. >> It's basically like a seed round, alright. That's probably a really good example, is it's a seed round to get something started. That thing is not your company, it is your network. >> And it also sets the community. I've noticed on the Blockchain, these ICO communities are a very bit part of it. Goodwin's got a great reputation, certainly here in Silicon Valley, and around the world, as a law firm. This is a big part of it. So the presale's also kind of a gesture of credibility for the opportunity and I think, I mean, you know, people I talk to are like, hey, I look at what's going on in the presale, kind of as an indicator of who's involved, judged by the company that you keep kind of thing. So that's interesting. Have you seen that presale dominating more than just going right to the ICO, given the market conditions of all the ICO's? >> Yeah, I mean I think it depends, right. Some of our clients have existing businesses, right. Where this is very complimentary. The Blockchain network is complimentary to their existing business and, so, they may not need to have this big presale, right. Part of the presale could be two weeks before your general crowd sale. You have folks who kind of get in early. To me, that is not necessarily, I mean, it really depends, obviously, fact-specific, but that's a little big different that doing a, quote, presale agreement. Like a year before or six months before your token launch. That's a little bit different. >> Yeah, so also you brought up a good point. Existing businesses versus kind of like people who just need the cash to get going. >> Right. >> We're seeing a lot of companies that either have a successful business, like Kik and then Kik Kin Token was once example, we talk about all the time. The other one is pivots. We're seeing a lot of entrepreneurs take companies that were pivots, AKA, going out of business, where the token timing of a token in decentralized Blockchain actually is great for their business model. And they have to, essentially, go recap or do some securities, you know, resetting. That's your world, right? You got to get involved in those areas. >> Yeah, I mean, I think anything that has to do with kind of changing your capital structure, right, you should have your securities lawyer or your corporate lawyer involved. Because that'll obviously impact your securities law. You know, exemptions that you're taking, you know, typically from a private placement exemption, for most of our private company clients. >> Is there any new trends that are popping out of that kind of pivot or, wow, this is really, you know, I was out there, I got some funding from Y Combinator, or some sort of venture, and we're kind of just barely staying alive. This Blockchain could really accelerate, there's now momentum. Is there any trends that you see, from your work standpoint, where you have, that are happen, that are obvious new things that are coming out of this? Or is it a standard recap to cap table, normal corporate work? >> I think there is a tension, right, between doing a normal stock finance, preferred stock, or common stock financing that, you know, whatever you would typically do. Whether that's a convertible security or a convertible note. And then raising funds through a token sale. And so, from my perspective, it's obviously cleaner to do it the traditional way. Because you're not dealing with unclear SEC rules, right. It's very clear how you do a preferred stock financing. We do that every day. So to the extent that companies are in that position where they can choose, it's certainly cleaner to do it the traditional way. >> If you pull off an ICO, god bless you. It's certainly equity-free, tokens. There's no equity to token, if you're a utility token. >> Right. >> Okay, so I was reading about the Delaware, Delaware was allowing companies to use Blockchain. >> Mm hmm. >> This is right up your alley. So, they're not doing ICO's. So can you clarity the Delaware situation relative to Blockchain, cause they're using a Blockchain from a ledger standpoint, but it's not an ICO haven yet. So talk about the Delaware situation. >> Correct, so the Delaware amendments, which I believe are now approved, as of a couple of months ago, over the summer, essentially allow the cap table ledger to be on the Blockchain. So they're kind of ahead of everything, right. Because, you know. So, for like, for example, a few years ago, no one had uncertificated stock certificates. Everybody wanted the physical stock certificates. And now most companies, that we represent, >> They want digital. >> Exactly, digital, uncertificated stock certificates. But there is a ledger and there is a record of it. You just don't have the fancy paper with the pretty legend on it. So I think technology is moving and the law needs to as well. So part of that is Delaware kind of getting onboard. >> Delaware's got a great opportunity, they can nail the ICO's. Well, Mitzi, thanks for coming, I really appreciate it. Any other observations that you'd like, that you see in the market that you'd like to share? Take a minute to talk about what you're doing at Goodwin, as well. What's going on, what's happening? >> Yeah, I mean I think it's a really exciting time, we're really excited to be a part of it. It's cutting edge work. I think that there's a lot of, I guess, what I would call kind of your more traditional clients that we have, that we take calls from every day. Whether that's investment banks, or VC funds, private equity funds, or just our venture backed companies that are curious as to what is this all about. >> Yeah. >> So I think it's really exciting and I'm glad to be a part of it. I don't think that it is going to stop. I think that certainly there's likely to be more regulation about how you do one of these ICO's, one of these token generation events, you know, within the confines of the law. But I don't see it stopping. >> You don't see it stopping at all? >> No, I mean I think once there's more regulation, there'll be more clarity about how to do it. And how to do it within the confines of the law, which we try to do, obviously, you know, given that there's not a ton of clear guidance. But I think that, I think the ship has sailed. >> Yeah, well this is a great conversation here with Goodwin, formerly Goodwin Proctor, Mitzi Chang, partner, she's a securities attorney. We should call this show Billable Hours. Because we're getting some free legal opinions and conversations, thanks for coming on, appreciate it. >> Thanks for having me. >> Blockchain is hot, entrepreneurs are using it. All the top tier one entrepreneurs are looking at this. Great opportunity, similar with the Web One dato, the TC IP era of the internet, Blockchain. It's fundamental infrastructure for the future of decentralization, so. Great opportunities, causing lots of innovation. Check with your attorneys, obviously Goodwin, and a few others all doing great ICO's. Great potential fundraising, but also great business opportunities. Thanks again, appreciate it. >> Thank you. >> So Cube Conversations here, in Palo Alto, I'm John Furrier, thanks for watching. (electronic music)

>> Announcer: From San Francisco, it's The Cube, covering Samsung Developer Conference 2017 brought to you by Samsung. >> Okay, welcome back and we're live here in San Francisco for the Samsung Developer Conference, SDC2017. I'm John Furrier. This is The Cube's exclusive coverage, and I'm excited to have an amazing guest, Amanda Cooloong who's a chief storyteller, Women in Tech International, Tech TV, TechZula. She's been really a storyteller in digital for a long time. Great to have you on. Been following all your Twittersphere and your content. >> Thank you. >> You did some work with Leo Laporte, Jason Calcanis, both this week in tech's kind of version of the scene. >> Mm hm. >> What are you up to now? >> Well I am working very closely with Women in Technology International, WITI. It is the largest, oldest organization for women in tech. They have a huge summit that they put on in San Jose every year, and I'm sort of the class clown for that and emcee the conference and lead the charge there. >> Well certainly you know what's interesting you have kind of a cool vibe, you're a cool person, you know tech, you know cloud computing. >> Mm hm. >> You've been in inside baseball for the tech scene. >> Mm hm. >> But now the consumer market with digital. >> Yeah. >> Pretty powerful, I mean like finally us geeks now have a national and global stage to flex our geekness, so you see nerds- >> We're suddenly cool? >> Cool to be a geek and now you see well the programmer calls us over thank god. >> (laughs) Well is it? >> Well the bad side of it. The good side of the democratization is happening. >> Right. >> So now you have an augmented reality. So it's just some cool stuff happening. What are you most impressed with? >> What am I most impressed with? Well I love Blockchain. I've been involved with some of that for three or four years now. I actually had a podcast about Blockchain and Bitcoin. And I'm really excited about what that means for investment specifically and ICOs, Initial Coin Offerings. My friend Brock Pierce is a big, big figurehead with all of that, with Blockchain Capital. And I believe that, especially for women that are looking to get into investment and get back in the earlier stage of things, I think ICOs, Initial Coin Offerings, are a huge opportunity for them to really change up the venture world. >> So when you say ICOs, which we know a lot about 'cause we're doing one at SiliconANGLE the next couple quarters. >> Yeah. >> No rush to do it but we're going to use our own cryptocurrency. But those nuances, when you say investment do you mean as an alternative to venture capital investment or actually investing in, say, the currency itself? >> Both. But I think of it as a completely new way to invest in companies. And there are so many barriers especially for women in technology... Again, that's a big platform for me. To getting into that world that ICOs just are completely changing up the entire ecosystem there. >> Well we're seen a ton of stuff. You saw Lisa Fetterman was on earlier. >> Mm hm. >> She had a huge success with her Kickstarter. Now she's got some pretty glamorous products. The cooking thing is pretty sexy, right? >> Mm hm. >> That thing could go- >> Sous vide, even the term sous vide. I mean, it's so fresh (laughs) >> I would put money to that. I mean it's just so... But that's a good example of Kickstarter. When we look at some of the ICOs, a lot of people are raising some serious capital in utility and stock or securities. >> Mm hm. >> Although the regulations are a moving train. But on the utility side it's a no-brainer. There's some significant cash being raised. In some cases, five to 50 million plus in token sales. >> Mm hm. >> That's like Kickstarter on steroids. >> It really is, and some people are afraid of it. You know, some people are saying that's completely absurd. Why would you ever do that? I personally would say don't put all of your eggs in one basket either. We know that. There's volatility anywhere. But, again, I think it's opening a lot of doors and giving certain people opportunities that they didn't have before. >> So how is your Bitcoin position these days? >> I may have been an early investor in some Bitcoin. I may obsessively look at the value every 15 minutes or so. No, I am fortunate. I listened to my mentors, and luckily I love emerging tech, so I'm doing well in that regard. >> I saw a post on Facebook: If you just bought 10 in bitcoin and smoked weed and sat on the beach and clipped coupons all day and did nothing else, you'd be worth 20 million dollars. >> Let's just say I know people that have actually bought castles with it. I'm not joking. >> What I like about the crypto Boxchain side is that there's an early community growing. So what's your analysis, because a lot of people want to know, is it Silk Road guys? Are they bad actors? Bitcoin's the underbelly of the internet. Early adopter. >> Those stories were so funny at the beginning. I mean, I live in LA. Everyone loves the sensationalized story. And of course that existed with Bitcoin too, and yes, there was some truth to it. >> Oh of course there was. >> Yes, absolutely the Silk Road story was real. >> Anonymous and encrypted transactions. >> Oh yes. >> That's going to attract some honey to the bees. >> There's a reason why certain people can't come back into the country. Let's just leave it at that. However, we've also seen major financial institutions get onboard. You know, Fintech has exploded. There's a lot of legitimacy to Blockchain and the distributed ledger technology. >> It's one of the fastest growing products in the Linux Foundation, Hyperledger project- >> Yes. >> Which is just going gangbusters. IBM's behind it. >> Yep. >> So it's got that opensource vibe, I get that. But the community, talk about the community because there are people who are leading the community. You said you know a few of them. >> What's your take on the community? How big is it? It's emerging, obviously, it's growing. What's the protocol for new entrants coming in? What's the behavior norms? >> Sure. It's grown in leaps and bounds, I can say that. I mean, from the time I did my Bitcoin podcast a few years ago to now, back then it was very much the bro culture to a degree, a lot of libertarians (laughs), a lot of folks that couldn't come back in the country, to be quite honest. But there were certain people that came out of that movement though like Brock Pierce that really thought ahead to how do we legitimize this, how do we make sure that this is white knighted, so to speak. >> Yeah, well it's a revolutionary... It's fundamental. I had the founder of Alibaba Cloud on the record. Haven't published a video yet so this is exclusive material. He said, I asked him about Blockchain. He says it's fundamental to the internet. It is the internet. >> It is, mm hm. >> Just like TCP/IP was in the stack. >> Absolutely. >> He was adamant that this is not on top of the internet. It's fundamental to... He's talking about Blockchain. >> Yep. >> Absolutely 'cause it's supply chain, it's currency, it's a zillion things. >> It's not just coins. Everyone focused in on Bitcoin Bitcoin Bitcoin. It's a distributed ledger technology. So it goes hand in hand with the internet of things. So the two have become very much married in that regard. >> You know, all these guys I interview on The Cube over the years, and certainly I lived through it, talk about the waves, the PC wave. >> Mm hm. They talk about the client server wave. Client server essentially, it's not so much about the mini computers 'cause the mini computers were not the client server wave 'cause that was proprietary operating systems and proprietary hardware. >> Mm hm. >> HP. >> Right. >> What made client server was TCP/IP. That created Threecom, Cisco, interoperability. So that really was that second wave. People are comparing Blockchain to TCP/IP. >> I can see that. >> Dr. Wang from Alibaba Cloud. Other people are saying like the dot com bubble, euphoric excitement. >> Yeah. >> So that begs the question. Who can bring functionality... This is my thesis. I want to test it with you. >> Mm hm. >> Who can bring functionality and simplicity? Because all the successes in Web 1.0, was Yahoo a directory of links, simple, easy to use. Cisco Routers, connect your networks, it works. So simplicity and functionality seems to be the norm in the Blockchain world. >> Mm hm. >> What's your thoughts on that? Can you share your reaction to that? >> Simplicity and functionality, I mean, for me it's- >> In terms of the winners versus the losers 'cause that's what people want to know with Blockchain. Where's the scams and where the legit? >> Mm hm, well the scams are the people that came from the gaming side that had no real business expanding out the way that they did and everybody loses their coin. But we won't name names there. I think more- >> It's okay to name names. >> (laughs) But with functionality, I mean again, I keep going back to its marriage with IOT, you know, the ledger based technology and just being able to do anything transactional. That's the simplicity of it for me, the fact that it's opensource, the fact that, yeah, I think that's the core of it. >> So let's talk about Samsung. We're here's at the Samsung event. >> Sure. >> How do you see these guys? We were talking about Blockchain. It's kind of the next big wave coming. Obviously a lot of things underneath that, but above that you've got software machine learning, all the goodness of open source is growing exponentially. That wave is coming to exponential growth in opensource, code shipments, meaning more people using opensource, and things like Blockchain. How does that impact a Samsung, an Apple, an Amazon? >> Well I think opensource is necessary for IOT specifically. Obviously that would be shut down without that. I've been talking with a lot of the developers here, the Samsung-specific people saying what is it that's exciting you about this forward movement, like with the keynote this morning. What do we need? How do we move this entire industry forward with IOT? And they're excited about the platform that Samsung has announced this morning in terms of just the ubiquity of everything working together in comparison to, well, a lot of other... Sorry. >> So the crypto thing is also tying into that too. >> Yes. >> I was tying that with IOT because IOT has some security issues. >> Right. >> So we can argue maybe- >> Some security issues? (laughs) >> Well the surface area. So you know, the theme in the enterprise is, you know, cloud computing. There's no moat anymore, there's no firewall. >> Yeah. >> Perimiterless security. Perimiterless problems. It means the edge is a surface area, and we've seen these attacks coming. >> Right. >> That's a problem. >> Mm hm. >> So there's no silver bullet right now. >> Yeah. >> So Samsung probably is cagey right now on the data. >> Exactly. >> They've got some security products, but smarter things is their kind of pitch. >> And then everybody keeps saying well who owns the security piece, who's responsible for the security piece. I think that's a big question we're going to see popping up a lot because the security piece is going to be a very valuable piece to all of this, especially when you're looking at edge computing too and data being passed back and forth between the edge. I would rather see everything stay with just the edge devices, personally. >> Yeah, well it's easier to manage, why do you want to move data across the network? >> Yeah, exactly. >> Move compute it's more efficient. >> Yeah. >> So final take on augmented reality VR. >> Oh, okay. >> What's imploding? What's imploded? What's growing? What's rising? What's falling? >> Sure. >> We had a comment earlier, said VR 1.0 is over. >> It really is. I personally think AR is where it's at. I've watched a lot of things on the VR front and a lot of it was marketing speak. I think we need a bigger push on the hardware side for VR to work effectively too. We also need to look at the audience there. And a lot of people are complaining, well I don't just want to go disappear into a separate world. A lot of women, actually, are complaining about that side of it. But the AR side I think has way more application. >> Yeah, crawl, walk, run in virtual space, basically. >> Yeah, yeah. VR I think will still be a place, but I think AR is going to be a bigger explosion. >> One of the things we were talking about earlier was as folks have been through many waves you and I've seen, waves of innovation, Web 1.0, the early adopters were the adult industry with banners 'cause they were about making money. We saw this wave. We're seeing the Silk Roads and Blockchain. Arbitrage comes from usually bad actors and not usually desirable actors. >> Right. >> But one big indicator of the current user experience we're seeing is the gaming culture, right. >> Mm hm. >> Gaming right now seems to be the early adopter indicator of the major trend lines 'cause it's gamification, it's a little bit analog, multiplayer. >> Look at Unity. Unity has a huge presence here at SDC and especially on the VR front if you want to look at that. Unity's a huge player there. >> What are some of the things you see coming out of the gaming world? 'Cause we've seen virtual currencies, ICO, lot of storage, lot of dynamic, realtime. >> Yeah. Gaming mechanism too across the board always play into this too, but I think the big one is ICOs for me. That's the one I've been focusing on a lot, yeah. >> I'd like to follow up more with you on the ICO thing. We're doing a whole programming on that on November second, love to have you. >> Mm hm. Look at what Crystal Rose with Sensay's been doing. >> Who? >> Crystal Rose, Sensay, she's launched her own ICO called SENSE. >> SENSE. Great, looking forward to chatting more. >> Mm hm, out of LA. >> Final question for you for the folks not here. What's the vibe here? How would you describe SDC2017? >> I love that there's a great vibe of innovation. Honestly, I've been to some other stodgier conferences lately, and this one definitely has a nice playful, creative vibe. >> B2B is boring to boring. This is not- >> I know, you were talking about E2E, everything to everything. See, I was listening. >> You were. >> Everything to everything. Exciting to exciting. >> Exciting. >> See, I listened to that too. Yeah, I would say there's a lot of creativity here. There's a lot of side conversations happening. That's important. And I see a good balance of men and women, so that makes me happy. >> Well I'm excited from Vanessa for bringing on a great lineup, you included. >> Thank you. >> Great to meet you in person. Had a great conversation here inside The Cube. I'm John Furrier here, exclusive coverage of the SDC2017. We'll be back after this short break.

live from las vegas it's the cube covering knowledge 60 brought to you by service now here your host dave vellante and Jeff Frick welcome back to knowledge 16 everybody this is the cube this is day two for the cube at knowledge our fourth year here cube goes out to the events we extract the signal from the noise we find the people that really know what they're talking about April Carter is a practitioner she's a senior IT operations manager at cars.com you want when a car go check out cars.com April thanks for coming on the cube thank you so take us inside well first of all talking about cars com I mean very competitive industry you're in right very competitive lots of merging market you're transforming thing you're disrupting and you're banging heads with everybody else is trying to do that but what's happening in the business what are the real pressures that are they're putting on i.t coming up with those new services really and really delivering quickly so we're very much anjel shops and we're doing continuous integration and continuous delivery is the big things for us right now the need for speed but so take us inside the world of IT Service Management your world you know what's it like so basically our transformation was you think of us of us accom so you think that were you know ahead of them a game but when I got two cars they were very paper and spreadsheet driven email is still even still very key to what we do you're rolling your eyes when you say that we can relate it annoys me so you know what service now has really helped us to really start that process and really rethink the services we deliver to our employees so everybody thinks of that external face to cars.com and that's what we focus on so much and we forget that internal phase so making things easier for our employees okay so um maybe start with the the journey of service now you you brought service now into the organization three years ago you had had experience in prior lives with not with service now but with other itsm vendors and they have always been very painful so when we did our bake off on what product that we were going to use you know when they came in they weren't we weren't really considering them a contender how long ago was this sorry two three years okay um but when they came in and they did their demo that you you know we were in the system and we're like this is a little too good to be true and then they say they we could be implemented in three months were like yeah right right that never happens but it all came to fruition and we were implemented with you know incident problem changed the basics you know knowledge an employee self-service portal with probably 30 or so orderable IIT items and it was a big deal for us and a huge success and how long did it take uh three months three months then you got a cake we did get a game everybody gets in here they don't miss daddy must have that in service now so they don't miss that reverse process okay so what was so the cars before was really paper-based spreadsheet based email base what was the business impact the business impact is really trying to drive our business partners in HR and in even in the development space to really try to rethink the way they interact internally so HR we implemented an onboarding automation so we went from multiple forms that we had to fill out as hiring managers to down to one so that was a big deal for us plus we were manually creating user accounts we were manually provisioning and how hardware and access we went through the entire process of about six months after we implemented service now to really try to grab ahold of that process and make it easier because we were delivering our new employees they're all of their things on time that first day because that's our goal but it was extremely painful for the service desk and those folks that Purdue that provisioning so we wanted to make it easier for them and we were able to okay so you you you brought in HR is Ellis recruiting but yeah okay HR pieces a little bit more difficult so we have let we left that piece out so we said onboarding yep you met onboarding so for my recruiting so as a hiring manager you basically submit the form to hire somebody and then all the way through to provisioning all their heirs and that inner integrates or interfaces in some way shape or form with your HR system or um it doesn't today it integrates with the recruiting system right okay which is separate from the HR system am okay and how does that integration occur so basically what what we did was we stood up a form within our catalog so as a hiring manager I can fill out all the information I need from the position that I'm filling through you know their salary requirements and all that kind of stuff plus all of their access they need once that person is hired all that's in there that in that form I can also save that form so as I need it in the future because I'm never going to remember what each person needs so i can say that form as well but then what service now does it sends that all that data over to Silk Road and actually implements all that data for the recruiters so they don't have to manually enter it because they were manually entering it before how do you find stuff ready listen giant content repository all right search it's just we have great search capabilities yeah yeah so this is that simple yeah cuz I could never find anything in my laptop uh-huh I'm very organized so it's one of those things that the the CMS that we had a portal that we have implemented now the design when we were implementing cuz it was three months we didn't really were thinking about everything it was a very broad scope when we were implementing so we didn't really think too heavily on a design of the portal and i think that the organization of the portals what probably annoys me the most at this point because people have to navigate through so much so with the news i'm very excited about the new CMS that they're pulling in helsinki which will actually help us to actual redesign that portal and get it so it's not so deep so as you say it's very hierarchical before yes and so now you're you're able to develop up with hell sinking a flatter structure exactly and it's much more easy to manage because right now it's kind of hard to manage especially if you don't have the technical skill set to do so because it's it's not easy it's more like nested folders versus labels exactly love labels so jizz so talk some more about the kinds of things that that you want to do with with the platform so there's a couple things we really want to push HR so HR is very very paper-based they love their paper actually so we implemented a take my paper ok what's your week HR status change form that you know it's a very very large process so any any time you want to change an employee status whether it's giving them a raise or changing their their location that they're based we fill out this foot paper form so we automated that and put it into service now it goes through approval processes so it's even auditable now or at least much easier to audit it and at the end of the design process was the HR folks are like well as long as I can print it out at the end I'll be fine yeah not really the point uploaded to ever know ok the other really thing that we're really excited about is actually so with the continuous delivery continuous integration that we're doing on the development side is we're opening up a lot of API is that our developers can use to automate a lot of their processes so we want to automate our release cycles right now everything's somewhat manual when we're doing release there's still people at the keyboard it's not wholly up manual but we want to get to that point where they just click on something in JIRA and it initiates the Jenkins Jenkins crates you know changes and it automates it all for them but it's still completely auditable from our perspective if you had to take a creative benefits pie and and you how to allocate a portion of the value let's say that's received by sort of IT versus outside of IT what would that pie look like I would say the biggest benefit is you know that an employee's so my goal is is to make the employees life easier I mean and that's the way I evangelize the product it's really what can I do to make your life easier what can I do to take some process it's very heavy and make it lighter for you that's the biggest biggest benefit the other thing is the ease of development on the tool so we don't want to go out and buy something every time a developer decides it wants to do something else so the ease of development so we can build small ABS we have a library app so they can check out kindle books I can check out Kendall even logins and within the tool that they're just little apps we're not going to go somewhere and buy that but we need to be able to do that so we can do that easily within the tool and it's funny in making the employees job easier is this nice second order effect where your phone doesn't ring exactly that's my goal are you don't tell him that little secret we were just doing it for you April could you talk about building these you know lightweight apps well describe the skill set of the people who are building these apps so they hard core developers or they locoed developers both I think its a mix of both so we some hard core developers that JavaScript pretty much 24 7 and then we have you know the admins who I can I code it within the tool myself but I'm definitely not a developer but it makes it easy enough for me to be able to do those little snippets of code that i need to make form easier for somebody to make it prettier to make it behave lightweight as so you're not you've never been a developer you've never written no code no never i still do it never works in pewter science major no ok but so you know you said no like okay so uh so you're smart this is ok all right ok but and so i want to dig it to level but so you are able to build apps or at least improve apps absolutely and I think there's there's multiple ways to do it obviously research the internet can tell me how to do a lot of stuff the community has been very helpful there's a also share the where you can find you know little little apps that will help you along your way as well so they make it very easy to actually kind of build out your core product did you have to go through training to get to that point or was it just sort of autodidactic or Ashley knowledge has been most of my training we didn't training at the beginning when we implemented but I haven't taken a look at training sense and you mentioned JIRA and just every tonight these stories make me think of JIRA it sounds like you know using kind of best practice in the hardcore software development part of the house and now bringing that over into the less hardcore software development side of the house but still very similar types of techniques and processes absolutely yeah that's great so bumper sticker on knowledge 16 for you what's the way they wouldn't when the trucks are pulling away from the Mandalay Bay was from April Carter standpoint what's it gonna say so the one thing there's a couple things I guess you know I did I always find vendors it at the show so I found we're implementing move soft right now it's a it's an event management tool and we're literally going through the process as we're here at the conference but it's it's an event management tool it I can't I in service now i can create manage my critical instant through being the OC critical incidents are my my bread and butter I have to make sure that those go off well and they that we reduce that time and i always find products here that I'm like oh I want to look into that we found one downstairs just yesterday that help is gonna help us and hopefully manage our mobile communications so all the cell phones and tablets and everything that we have in our orders and then dealing with the external vendors like Verizon and AT&T have been fun maybe not quite fun yeah I'm surprised something good here and and I learn a lot a new thing so it's it's always been very helpful how many years have you been coming um this will be my fourth your fourth all right same as ours too yeah April an awesome having you thanks so much for coming on the cube you know cube newbie did a great job awesome yeah you're a cube alone I here alone all right thank you thank you okay keep right here everybody will be back with our next guest is the cube we're live from knowledge 16 in Las Vegas bright back every once in a while a true break