>> live from Boston, Massachusetts. It's the Cube covering A W s reinforce 2019 brought to you by Amazon Web service is and its ecosystem partners. >> Okay, welcome back. Everyone's two cubes Live coverage here in Boston, Massachusetts, for AWS reinforce. This is Amazon Web services Inaugural conference around Cloud security There first of what? Looks like we'll be more focused events around deep dive security to reinvent for security. But not no one's actually saying that. But it's not a summit. It's ah, branded event Reinforce. We're hearing Mark Ryland off director Office of the Sea. So at eight of us, thanks for coming back. Good to see you keep alumni. Yeah, I'm staying here before It's fun. Wait A great Shadow 80 Bucks summit in New York City Last year we talked about some of the same issues, but now you have a dedicated conference here on the feedback from the sea. So as we've talked to and the partners in the ecosystem is, it's great to have an event where they go deep dives on some of the key things that are really, really important to security. Absolutely. This is really kind of a vibe that how reinvents started, right? So reinventing was a similar thing for commercial. You're deep, not easy to us. Three here, deeper on Amazon. But with security. Yeah, security lens on some of the same issues. One thing that happened >> and kind of signal to us that we needed an event like this over the years with reinvent was consistently over the years, the security and compliance track became one of the most important tracks that was oversubscribed in overflow rooms and like, Hey, there's a signal here, right? And so, but at the same time, we wanted to be able to reach on audience. Maybe they wouldn't go to reinvent because they thought I'd say It's all the crazy Dale Ops guys were doing this cloud thing. But now, of course, they're getting the strong message in their security organizations like, Hey, we're doing cloud. Or maybe as a professional, I need to really get smart about this stuff. So it's been a nice transition from still a lot of the same people, but definitely the different crowd that's coming here and was a cross pollination between multiple and I was >> just at Public sector summit. They about cyber security from a national defense and intelligence standpoint. Obviously, threesome Carlson leads That team you got on the commercial side comes like Splunk who our data and they get into cyber. So you started to see kind of the intersection of all the kind of Amazon ecosystems kind of coming around security, where it's now part of its horizontal. It's not just these are the security vendors and partners writes pretty much everyone's kind of becoming native into thinking about security and the benefits that you guys have talk about that what Amazon has to have a framework, a posture. Yeah, they call it shared responsibility. But I get that you're sharing this with the ecosystem. Makes sense. Yeah, talk about the Amazon Web service is posture for this new security >> world. Well, the new security world is if you look at like a typical security framework like Mist 853 120 50 controls all these different things you need to worry about if you're a security professional. And so what eight obvious able to do is say, look, there's a whole bunch of these that we can take care of on your behalf. There's some that we'll do some things and you got to do some things and there's some There's still your responsibility, but we'll try to make it easy for you to do those parts. So right off the bat we can get a lot of wins from just hey, there's a lot of things will just take care of. And you could essentially delegate to us. And for the what remain, You'll take your expertise and you'll re focus it on more like applications security. There still may be some operating systems or whatever. If using virtual machine service, you still have to think about that. But even there, we'll use we have systems Manager will make it easy to do patch management, updating, et cetera. And if you're willing to go all the way to is like a lambda or some kind of a platform capability, make it super easy because all you gotta do is make sure your code is good and we'll take care of all the infrastructure automatically on your behalf so that share responsibility remains. There's a lot of things you still need to be careful about and do well, but your experts can refocus. They could be very you know like it's just a lot less to worry about it. So it's really a message for howto raise the bar for the whole community, but yet still have >> that stays online with the baby value properties, which is, you know, build stuff, ship fast, lower prices. I mazon ethos in general. But when you think about the core A. W. S what made it so great Waas you can reduce the provisioning of resource is to get something up and running. And I think that's what I'm taking away from the security peace you could say. We know Amazon Web service is really well, and we're gonna do these things. You could do that so us on them and then parts to innovate. So I get that. That's good. The other trend I want to get your reaction to is comments we've had on the Cube with si SOS and customers is a trend towards building in house coding security. Your point about Lambda some cool things air being enabled through a B s. There's a real trend of big large companies with security teams just saying, Hey, you know what? I wanna optimize my talent to code and be security focused on use cases that they care about. So you know, Andy Jazz talks about builders. You guys are about builders you got cos your customers building absolutely. Yet they don't want Tonto, but they are becoming security. So you have a builder mindset going on in the big enterprises. >> Yes, talk about that dynamic. That's a That's a really important trend. And we see that even in security organizations which historically were full of experts but not full of engineers and people that could write code. And what we're seeing now is people say, Look, I have all this expertise, but I also see that with a software defined the infrastructure and everything's in a P I. If I pair up in engineering team with a security professional team, then well, how good things will happen because the security specials will say, Gosh, I do this repetitive task all the time. Can you write code to do that like, Yeah, we can write code to do that. So now I can focus on things that require judgment instead of just more rep repetitive. So So there's a really nice synergy there, and our security customers are becoming builders as well, and they're codifying if you moment expression in code, a policy that used to be in a document. And now they write code this as well. If that policy is whatever password length or how often we rode a credentials, whatever the policy is where Icho to ensure that that actually happening. So it's a real nice confluence of security expertise with the engineering, and they're not building the full stack >> themselves. This becomes again Aki Agility piece I had one customer on was an SMS business. They imported to eight of US Cloud with three engineers, and they wrote all the Kuban aged code themselves. They could have used, you know, other things, but they wanted to make sure it's stable so they could bring in some suppliers that could add value. So, again, this is new. Used to be this way back in the old days, in House developers build the abs on the mainframe, build the APS on the mini computers and then on I went to outsourcing, so we're kind of back. The insourcing is the big trend now, >> right in with the smaller engineering team, I can do a lot that used to require so many more people with a big waterfall method and long term projects. And now I take all these powerful building blocks and put an engineering team five people or what we would call it to pizza team five or six people off to the side, given 34 weeks, and they can generate a really cool system that would have required months and not years before. So that's a big trend, and it applies across the board, including two security. >> I think there's a sea change, and I think it's clear what I like about this show is this cloud security. But it's also they have the on premises conversation, Mrs Legacy applications that have been secured and or need to be secured as they evolve. And then you got cloud native and all these things together where security has to be built in. Yeah, this is a key theme, so I want to get your thoughts on this notion of built in security from Day one. What's your what's your view on this? And how should customers start thinking >> about it? And >> what did you guys bringing to the table? Well, I think that's just a general say maturation that goes on in the industry, >> whether it's cloud or on Prem is that people realize that the old methods we used to use like, Hey, I'm gonna build a nap And then I'm gonna hand it to the security team and they're gonna put firewalls around it That's not really gonna have a good result. So security by design, having security is equal co aspect of If I'm getting doing an architecture, I look a performance. I look, it cost. I look at security. It's just part of my system designed. I don't think of it as like a bolt on afterwards, so that leads to things like, you know, Secure Dev ops and kind of integration teams through. This could be happening on premises to it's just part of I T. Modernization. But Cloud is clearly a driver as well, and cloud makes it easier because it's all programmable. So things that are still manual on premises, you can do in a more automated getting into a lot of conversations here under the covers, A lot of under the hood conversations here around >> security BC to one of the most popular service is you guys have obviously compute a big part of the mission Land, another of the feature VPC traffic flows, where mirroring was a big announcement. Like we talked about that a lot of talking about the E c two nitro. You gave a talk on that. Did you just unpacked it a little bit because this has been nuanced out there. It's out there people are interested in. What's that talk about inscription is, is in a popular conversation taking minutes? Explain your talk. Sure, So we've talked for now a year and 1/2 >> about how we've essentially rien. Imagine reinvented our virtual machine architecture, too. Go from a primarily soft defined system where you have a mainboard with memory and intel processor and all that kind of a coup treatments of a standard server. And then your virtual ization layer would run a full copy of an operating system, which we call a Dom zero privileged OS that would mediate access between the guest OS is in this and the outside world because it would maintain the device model like how do I talk to a network card? How I talked to a storage device. I talked through the hyper visor, but through also a dom zero Ah, copy of Lennox. A copy of Windows to do all that I owe. So what we just did over the past few years, we begin to take all the things we're running inside that privileged OS and move that into dedicated hardware software, harbor combination where we now have components we call nitro components their actual separate little computers that do dbs processing. They do vpc processing they do instance, storage. So at this point now, we've taken all of the components of that damn zero. We've moved it out into these You could call Cho processors. I almost think of them is like the Nitro controllers. The main processor and the Intel motherboard is a co processor where customer workloads run because the trust now is in these external all systems. And when you go to talk to the outside world from easy to now you're talking through these very trusted, very powerful co processors that do encryption. They do identity management for you. They do a lot of work that's off the main processor, but we can accelerate it. We could be more assured that it's trustworthy. It can it can protect itself from potential types of hacks that might have been exposed if that, say, an encryption key was in the and the main motherboard. Now it's not so it's a long story until one hour version and doing three minutes now. But overall we feel that we built a trustworthy system for virtual. What was the title of talk so people can find it online? So I was just called the night to architecture security implications of the night to architecture. So it's taking information that we had out there. But we're like highlighting the fact that if you're a security professional, you're gonna really like the fact that this system has it has no damn zero. It has no shell. You can't log into the system as a human being. It's impossible to log in. It's all software to find suffer driven, and all the encryption features air in these co processors so we can do like full line made encryption of 100 gigabits of network traffic. It's all encrypted like that's never been done before. Really, in the history of computing, what's the benefit of nitro architectural? Simply not shelter. More trust built into it a trusted root. That's not the main board encryption, off load and more isolation. Because even if I somehow we're toe managed to the impossible combination of facts to get sort of like ownership of that main board, I still don't have access to the outside world. From there, I have to go through a whole another layer of very secure software that mediates between the inner world of where customer were close run and the outside world where the actual cloud is. So it's just a bunch of layers that make things more secure, >> and I'm sure Outpost will have that as well. Can you waste on that? Seem to me to hear about that. Okay, Encryption, encrypt everything. Is it philosophy we heard in the keynote? You also talked about that as well. Um, encrypting traffic on the hour. I didn't talk about what that means. What was talked to you? What's the big conversation around? Encryption within a. W s just inside and outside. What's the main story there? >> There's a lot of pieces to the pie, but a big one that we were talking about this week is a pretty long term project we call Project lever. It was actually named after a ah female cryptographer. Eventually Park team that was help. You know, one of the major factors, including World War Two, are these mathematicians and cryptographers. So we we wanted to do a big scale encryption project. We had a very large scale network and we had, you know, all the features you normally have, but we wanted to make it so that we really encrypted everything when it was outside of our physical control. So we done that took a long time. Huge investment, really exciting now going forward, everything we build. So any time data that customers give to us or have traffic between regions between instances within the same region outside reaches, whenever that traffic leaves our physical control so kind of our building boundaries or gates and guards and going down the street on a fiber optic to another data center, maybe not far away or going inter continent intercontinental links are going sub oceanic links all those links. Now we encrypt all the traffic all the time. >> And what's the benefit of that? So the benefit of that is there. Still, you know, it's it's obscure, >> but there is a threat model where, you know, governments have special submarines that are known to exist that go in, sniff those transoceanic links. And potentially a bad guy could somehow get into one of those network junction points or whatever. Inspect traffic. It's not, I would say, a high risk, but it's possible now. That's a whole nother level of phishing attacks. Phishing attack, submarine You're highly motivated to sniff that line couldn't resist U. S. O. So that's now so people could feel comfortable that that protection exists and even things like here's a kind of a little bit of scare example. But we have customers that say, Look, I'm a European customer and I have a very strong sense of regional reality. I wanna be inside the European community with all my data, etcetera, and you know, what about Brexit? So now I've got all this traffic going through. A very large Internet peering point in London in London won't be part of Europe anymore according to kind of legal norms. So what are you doing in that case? Unless they Well, how about this? How about if yes, the packets are moving through London, but they're always encrypted all the time. Does that make you feel good? Yeah, that makes me feel good. I mean, I so my my notion of work as extra territorial extra additional congee modified to accept the fact that hey, if it's just cipher text, it's not quite the same as unscripted. >> People don't really like. The idea of encrypted traffic. I mean, just makes a lot of sense. Why would absolutely Why wouldn't you want to do that right now? Final question At this event, a lot of attendee high, high, high caliber people on the spectrum is from biz dab People building out the ecosystem Thio Hardcore check. He's looking under the hood to see SOS, who oversee the regime's within companies, either with the C i O or whatever had that was formed and every couple is different. But there's a lot of si SOS here to information security officers. You are in the office of the Chief Security Information officer. So what is the conversations they're having? Because we're hearing a lot of Dev ops like conversations in the security bat with a pretty backdrop about not just chest undead, but hack a phone's getting new stuff built and then moving into production operations. Little Deb's sec up So these kinds of things, we're all kind of coming together. What are you hearing from those customers inside Amazon? Because I know you guys a customer driven in the customers in the sea SOS as your customer. What are they saying? What are they asking for? So see, so's our first getting their own minds around >> this big technical transformations that are happening on dhe. They're thinking about risk management and compliance and things that they're responsible for. They've got a report to a board or a board committee say, Hey, we're doing things according to the norms of our industry or the regulated industries that we sit in. So they're building the knowledge base and the expertise and the teams that can translate from this sort of modern dev ops e thing to these more traditional frameworks like, Hey, I've got this oversight by the Securities Exchange Commission or by the banking regulators, or what have you and we have to be able to explain to them why our security posture not only is maintained, it in some ways improved in these in this new world. So they're they're challenge now is both developing their own understanding, which I think they're doing a good job at, but also kind of building this the muscle of the strength. The terminology translate between these new technologies, new worlds and more traditional frameworks that they sit within and people who give oversight over them. So you gotta risk. So there's risk committees on boards of these large publics organizations, and the risk committees don't know a lot about cloud computing. So s O they're part of what they do now is they do that translation function and they can say, Look, I've I've got assurance is based on my work that I do in the technology and my compliance frameworks that I could meet the risk profiles that we've traditionally met in other ways with this new technology. So it's it's a pretty interesting >> had translations with the C I A. Certainly in public sector, those security oriented companies, a cz well, as the other trend, they're gonna educate the boards and they're secure and not get hacked the obsolete. And then there's the innovation side of it. Yeah, we actually gotta build out. Yes. This is what we just talked about a big change for our C says. That we talk to and work with all the time is that hey, we're in engineering community now. We didn't used to write a lot of code, and now we do. We're getting strong in that way. Or else we're parting very closely with an engineering team who has dedicated teams that support our security requirements and build the tools. We need to know that things are going well from our perspective. So that's a really cool, I think, changing that. I think that is probably one >> of my favorite trends that I see because he really shows the criticality of security was pretty much all critically, only act. But having that code coding focus really shows that they're building in house use case that they care about and the fact that I can now get native network traffic. Yeah, and you guys are exposing new sets of service is with land and other things >> over the top. >> It just makes for a good environment to do these clouds. Security things. That seems to be the show >> in a nutshell. Yeah, I think that's one of the nice thing about this show. Is It's a very positive energy here. It's not like the fear and scary stuff sometimes hear it. Security conference is like a the sky's falling by my product kind of thing Here. It's much more of a collaborative like, Hey, we got some serious challenges. There's some bad guys out there. They're gonna come after us. But as a community using new tooling, new techniques, modern approaches, modernization generally like let's get rid of a lot of these crusty old systems we've never updated for 10 or 20 years. It's a positive energy, which is really exciting. Good Mark, get your insights out. So this is your wheelhouse Show. Congratulations. >> You got to ask you the question. Just take your see. So Amazon had off just as an industry participant riding this way, being involved in it. What is the most important story that needs to be told in the press? In the media that should be told what's as important. Either it's being told it, then should be amplified or not being told and be written out. What's the What's the top story? I don't think that even after all this time that you know when people >> hear public cloud computing. They still have this kind of instinctive reaction like, Oh, that sounds kind of scary or a little bit risky and, you know, way need to get to the point where those words don't elicit some sense of risk in people's minds, but rather elicit like, Oh, cool, that's gonna help me be secure instead of being a challenge. Now that's a journey, and people have to get there, and our customers who go deep, very consistently, say, And I'm sure you've had them say to you, Hey, I feel more confident in my cloud based security. Then I do my own premises security. But that's still not the kind of the initial reaction. And so were we still have a ways, a fear based mentality. Too much more >> of a >> Yeah. Modernization base like this is the modern way to get the results in the outcomes I want, and cloud is a part of that, and it doesn't not only doesn't scare me, I want to go there because it's gonna take a community as well. Yeah, Mark, thanks so much for coming back on the greatest. Be hearing great Mark Mark Riley, direct of the office of the chief information security at Amazon Web services here, sharing his inside, extracting the signal. But the top stories and most important things >> being being >> said and discussed and executed here, it reinforced on the Cube. Thanks for watching. We'll be right back with more after this short break.

>> Live from Toronto, Canada, it's theCUBE, covering Global Cloud and Block Chain Summit 2018. Brought to you by theCUBE. >> Hello everyone, welcome back to theCUBE live coverage in Toronto for the Block Chain-Cloud Convergence Show. This is the Global Cloud Block Chain Summit part of the Futurist Event that's going on the next two days after this. Our next guest is Kesem Frank, AION co-founder and CEO of MavenNet. Doing a lot of work in the enterprise and also block chain space around the infrastructure, making it really interoperable. Of course, Jenna Pilgrim, co-founder and COO of a new opportunity called Network Effects. Welcome to the cube, thanks for joining us. >> Thanks, thanks for having us. >> Thanks, John. >> You guys were just on a panel, The Real World Applications of Block Chain. IBM was on it, which, been doing a lot of work there. This is real world, low hanging fruit, block chain, everyone's pretty excited about. A lot of people get it, and some don't. Some are learning. So you've got the believers, the I want to believe, and then the nonbelievers. Let's talk about the I want to believe and the believers in block chain. Some real world applications going on. As it's evolving, so there's evolution of the standards, technology, but people are putting it to use. What's going on in the sector around some of the real world cases you guys talked about? >> I think we're seeing a lot of collaboration as far as real world applications go, because I think people are sort of starting to understand that if a distributed network is going to work or is going to be secure, it needs diversity and it needs mass scale. If lots of different parties can work together, then they can actually form a community that's really working. As far as real world applications, there's some really interesting one as far as supply chain. Kathryn Harrison at IBM talked about their pilot about shipping, bringing together the global supply chain of distribution. There's a bunch of interesting ones about food providence and bringing together different parties just to make sure that people know what they're eating and that they are able to keep themselves safe, so I think those are two definitely interesting ones. >> Kesem, block chain, supply chain, value chains, these are kind of key words that mean something together. >> Right. >> Making things work in a new way, making things more efficient, seems to be a trend. You're kind of in that world. Is it efficient? (laughing) How's the tech working? What are some of the core threshold issues that people have to get over? >> So you know, John, that's exactly the question to ask. A lot of folks out there are looking at block chain and the promise it represents, and the one big question that keeps echoing over and over is when is this going mainstream? When are we going to see something, a domain, a use case, that is actually natively on a block chain? I think that, essentially, we kind of owe it to ourselves and to everyone that cares about this stuff to ask what's working today, August 2018 and what is still kind of pending? I co-founded a project called AION. For us, interoperability is really one of the key facets that you need to be able to solve for to make block chains real. And again, here's the 60 second argument. If you're going to grow all these solutions that are centric around the use case, they solve for different pinpoints and different stakeholders care about them. They don't really create the cohesive kind of ecosystem until they can all talk to each other, and then you have to ask yourself is the original hypothesis where it's going to be one main net, one chain that's going to rule them all, and everybody gets to play on it and everybody deploys their Dapps on stuff like Fabric or R3 or Ethereum, or whatever it might be. That is absolutely not the way we're seeing enterprise actually shaping into this domain of block chain. What we're seeing is big consortiums that already have value, tangible today, out of doing stuff on chain, and the biggest thing to solve is how do I take, to Jenna's point around supply chain or food providence, whatever it is, how do I actually open it so I can now start writing insurance events, payment events, banking, underwriting, auditing, regulation? There's this gigantic ecosystem that needs to be enabled, and again we are actively saying it's not going to be by an organic model where you and I do everything on top of a single solution. There will be a multitude of solutions, and what we need to solve for is how do we convert them from disparate islands that don't talk to each other into a cohesive ecosystem? >> This is a great point. We were talking on our intro, and we talked last night on our panel, about standards. If you look at all the major inflection points where wealth was created and value was created around innovation and entrepreneurship and industry inflection points, there's always some sort of standard thing that happened. >> Right. >> Whether it's the OSI model during the early days of the internet to certain protocols that made things happen with the internet. Here, it's interesting because if you have one chain and rule the world, it's got to be up and running. >> Yeah. >> It's not. There's no one thing yet, so I see that trend the cloud has, private cloud, public cloud, but public cloud was first but people had data centers. >> Right. >> Both not compatible, now the trend is multi-cloud. You can almost connect the dots of saying multi-chain >> Right. >> Might be a big trend. >> Right. >> This is kind of what you're teasing out here. >> That's exactly what we're about, and I think it's very interesting, the point you're making about dissimilarities between the two domains. We are in a cloud convention, and to me it means two things. One, we absolutely see the mainstream people, the mainstream players in industry, starting to take this seriously. It used to be a completely disparate world where you guys are a bunch of crazies with your Bitcoin and ether and what not. They're definitely taking this seriously now. The second thing, when you think of cloud as a model, how cloud evolved, we used to have these conversations around are you crazy, you're telling me that my data is not going to be on premise? >> It's not secure, now it's the most secure. >> Oh my God! It's in the cloud, what's a cloud? (laughing) You think of the progression model that was applicable back then, right? 10 years, 15 years back, where we started privately and we tell them OK, we'll take this side step of hybrid and then fully public. Took them a while, took them almost 20 years to get their heads around it. >> There's no one trajectory. What's interesting about block chain and crypto with token economics, there's no one trend you can map an analog to, you can't say this is going to be like this trend of the past. It's almost developing it's own kind of trajectory. A lot of organic community involvement. Different tech involvement. >> Totally. >> Different engineering mindsets coming together. You're seeing an engineering-led culture big time going on. That's propelling it up to the conversations of let's lay down the pipes, let's start running apps, but I'll do it within a two year window (laughing). >> I think the big thing to understand about that is yes, you need a whole host of developer talent to build distributed systems, but at the end of the day those systems still have to be used by people. They still have to be used by society, you still have to understand how to talk to your chief executives about what's happening within your company or what your tech teams are doing. There's a growing need for marketers, for PR people, for people who speak, I don't want to say plain English, but people who understand how-- >> Translate it to the real world. >> Yeah, they need to translate it, and how to bridge the gap between legacy systems and how do you take what you were doing before and transform it to a distributed ledger system? How do you do that without just paving the cow path? >> It's interesting, it's almost intoxicating, 'cause you got two elements that get people excited. You got the token economics, which gets people to go, "Whoa," the economics and the liquidity of money and/or value creation capture equations completely changing some of the business model stuff, which could be translated to software and Dapps and software general stuff or SaaS, et cetera. Then you got the plumbing or the networking side of it where things like latency, interoperability, absolutely matter, so with all that going on in real time, it's kind of happening at 30,000 feet and trying to change the airplane engine out. People are failing, and so there's some false promises, there's also false hopes that have not been achieved, so this clouds up the real big picture which is this is an innovative environment. We're seeing that trend. But when you get to the end of the day, what are people working on, to me, is the tell sign. Kesem, what's your project, talk about AION and the work you're doing, specifically give some examples of some of the things that you're doing in the trenches. >> Sure. >> What are you trying to solve, what are some examples you're running into and how does that relate to how things might evolve going forward? >> Sure, so there is a multitude of different problems that we work on but if you want to stick just to the fundamentals? Let's take one gigantic issue that everyone's kind of tackling from different perspectives, let's talk about scale. Scale is, especially in block chains especially challenging just because of how the technology works. How decentralized can you get before you're faced with gigantic latencies and before transaction cost are kind of through the roof? When you think about it, that is all a result of how we kind of contemplate these early stage networks. It was always the one network that is going to scale to infinity. Absolutely not the way it's going to work out. So from my perspective, again, sticking to this one issue, if you could actually give me a decentralized rail that maintains consensus throughout two networks, I can now actually have two trusted kind of go-tos instead of always putting the full brunt of the throughput on one single network. For us, that's kind of a no brainer application to interoperability. If you could actually give me all these trusted networks that work in tandem, I could now start splicing throughputs across many different parallel kind of rails. Not to similar than how we can solve for super computing. We understood there is a limit on how fast can a single CPU go and we started going wide. >> That's an interesting point, I want to just double click on that for a second because if you think about it, why would I have multiple rails and multiple systems? Maybe the use cases are different for them. >> Correct. >> You don't want to have to pick one cloud or one chain to rule them all because it's not optimized. We saw that with monolithic systems and cloud is all about levels of granularity and micro service and micro everything, right? >> Correct. >> And I would also say that gets into a security issue as well, right? You're talking about multiple layers but you also will have multiple layers of permission. You'll have multiple layers of how much information someone can see and what I think is emerging, if data is the new oil, then what's emerging is for the first time we're now able to trust data that we do not own. For corporations who say, "I don't know to market to you "if I don't know everything about you." But at the end of the day, they want to be able to leverage your data but they don't need to secure it and I think that cybersecurity issue is a huge, huge thing that's definitely coming. >> I want to get both of your thoughts on this, because we were talking about this last night. We were riffing on the notion that with cloud compute and data really drove scale. So Amazon is a great example and their value now is things like Kinesis and Aurora, some of their fastest growing services. You got SageMaker, probably will be announced at re:Invent coming up as the fastest growing service, right now it's Aurora. All data concepts. So the dataization really made cloud, great. >> True. >> Okay what's the analog for crypto and block chain? Tokenization is an interesting concept. There's almost an extension of cloud where you're saying, hey, with tokenization, the tokenization phase, how do you explain that to a common person? You say, is token going to be the token and the money aspect of and the economics the killer app? How's it transverse the infrastructures, plural? >> Yeah, or is the wallet going to be the browser? Or how are all of these things happening? >> How do you make sense of this? What's your reaction to that trend? >> So I actually get excited when I think about what token, on the most profound level, actually means. When you kind of think of where value happens in the context of these gigantic enterprises, right? You think of Apple, Amazon, Google, Facebook, any of them, and you kind of think of what the product is, it's all about the data and it's all about how do you convince people to give up data so they can monetize on it. And then you have two distinct, like literally gigantic groups of stakeholders at play. You have the users, that essentially get something free, right? I get to post on Facebook or I get to write an e-mail on Gmail. Then you have the stakeholders that actually extract all that value from my activities. A token, I think most profoundly represents, how do we actually get to a unified group where the user himself is the stakeholder that gets to extract the data? And again, the proposition is pretty straightforward. The more you use a network and the more the network becomes valuable and grows, the more value the token that drives at it. >> So it changes the value capture equation? >> Correct, different model altogether. >> The value creators get to capture the value and obviously network effects plays a big part in this? >> Yes. >> Which is your wheelhouse. (laughing) >> Yeah, definitely. I think it really comes down to core principles. Now you're able to really get down, to what Kesem was talking about, about when you're designing a token or if you're designing an incentive mechanism, you're really going down to the sort of deep game theory of why people do specific things and if we can financially incentivize people to do good rather than punish them or fine them for doing bad then we can actually create value for everyone. We're designing a new economy that now has the ability to propel itself in a fair and prosperous way, if done correctly, obviously that's the disclaimer afterwards, but. >> I love what you're saying there because if you look at collective intelligence a lot of the AI concepts came around from collective intelligence, predictive analytics, prescriptive analytics all came around using data to create value. I always talk about fake news because we have a cloud of media business that's kind of tokenized now but fake news it two things, it's payload, fake news, the fake content and then the infrastructure dynamics that they arbitraged, with network effects. They targeted specific people, fake payload, but the distribution was a network effect. Again, this was the perverse incentive that no one was monitoring, there was no- >> Well and I think in that case, yes there is news that is inherently false information but then there's also a whole spectrum of trueness, if you want to call it that so now we have this technology that allows us to overlay on top of that and say, "Well what is the providence of my information?" And with different layers of block chain systems you're actually able to prove the providence of your information without exposing the user's privacy and without exposing the whole supply chain of the media because there's like media buyers, go through all kinds of hands. >> And we believe the answer to fake news, frankly, is data access, collective intelligence and something like a block chain where you have incentive systems to filter out the fake news. >> Totally. >> Exactly. >> Reputation systems, these things are not new concepts. >> It's all about stake at the end of the day, right? It's how do you keep a stakeholder accountable for their action? You need backing so I think we're definitely on the same page. >> I love, I could talk about fake news all day because we think we can solve that with our CUBEcoin token coming out soon. I want to shift gears and talk about some of the examples we've seen with cloud. >> Sure. >> And try to map that to some navigation for people in how to get through the block chain token world. One of the key things about the cloud was something they called shadow IT. Shadow IT was people who said, hey, you know what? I could just put my credit card down and move this non core thing out in this cloud and prove to my boss, show them, not pitch 'em on the Power Point deck, to say look it, I just did this for that cost in this timeframe, and that started around 2009/2010 timeframe, the early digerati or the clouderati kind of did that but around 2012 it became, wow, this shadow IT is actually R and D practice. >> Mm-hmm. >> Right. >> You started to see that now, so the question that we see for people evaluating in the enterprise is how do you judge what's a good project? Certainly people are kicking the tires and doing a little bit, I won't call it shadow IT, but they're taking on some projects as you were talking about on the panel. How should they, the enterprises in general, the large companies, start thinking about how to enable a shadow IT-like dynamic and how should they evaluate the kind of projects? I think that's an area people just don't know what to look for. Your thoughts? >> I want to add a premise to that, because I think that's absolutely the right question to ask. We also need to add the why. Why should we, as people that do native crypto currency, even care about enterprises? A lot of people kind of theorized when Bitcoin was created to say it was anti institutional is an understatement, right? Aren't we meant to kill enterprise? The thing is, I don't think it's going to be a big bang. I don't think it's going be we wake up and nobody's using banking anymore or nobody's using the traditional healthcare or government and you know whatever insurance policies. We care about block chain in the context of enterprise because we think block chain is a fundamentally better model of doing things. It kind of does away with the black box where I need to be in business, I need to blindly trust you and it introduces a much more transparent and democratic model of doing things. We absolutely want to introduce and make block chain mainstream because that's important for us. When you think of how we do it, to your question, AION is all about interoperability, right? We create a solution that helps scale and helps different networks, decentralized networks, communicate to each other. What we also do with MavenNet, the company I run, is essentially make that enterprise friendly. It's extremely hard to do adoption and implementation within an enterprise, they're very immune to change. >> Antibodies as they say. >> Oh. >> The antibodies to innovation, they kill innovation. >> Totally, so going back to your original question, it all starts with a P and L. If somebody is going to authorize, you know, an actual production system in enterprise for block chain, it needs to create a tangible value, a tangible return, quickly and that's the key. The model that actually scales is you start by flushing out inefficiency plate. You show the enterprise how you could actually achieve, I don't know 20%/30%, that's the order of magnitude that they care about, efficiency by moving some part of your value chain on top of a block chain. >> It has to have an order of magnitude difference or so. I mean cloud was a great example, too, it changes the operating model. >> Yeah. >> They achieve what they wanted to achieve faster and more efficiently and operated it differently. >> Correct. >> And people were starting at it like a three headed monster like what is this thing, right? The cloud thing. And throwing all kinds of fud out there, but ultimately at the end of the day, it's a new operating model for the same thing that they're trying to do with the old stuff. >> Mm-hmm. >> I mean, it's almost that simple. >> Yeah, I think in some cases you need to really, in my previous life at the Block Chain Research Institute, we encouraged a lot of our clients to really take a step back and say, well will I actually, A, will I have this problem in eight years or seven years or 20 years or 50 years, if we're really fundamentally building a new financial system or a new way of doing things that is fundamentally different? Are we building it on old technology? We need to make sure that, and that's why you've seen banks were the first in the door to say, "Yeah, payments, that sounds great, that sounds great." But the real applications that we're seeing from banks are in loyalty, they're in AMLKYC, they're in the sort of fringe operations. Something like payments is going to take a really long time to push through because of those legacy systems because payments is the fundamentals of what banks do. >> This is an interesting point, I want to get your thoughts to end the segment because I think one of the things that we've certainly seen with cloud that over the generational shifts that have happened, the timeframe for innovation is getting shorter and shorter, so timeframe is critical so if the communities are fumbling around hitting that time to value, it seems to be trending to faster and we don't want to hear slower because these systems are inadequate, they're antiquated. >> Mm-hmm. >> These are the systems that are disrupted so the timing of, whether it's standards, or interoperability or business models, operating models, they got to be faster. >> Yeah. >> That's the table stakes. >> I think it all comes down to collaborative governance. >> People have to figure out block chain faster. >> Yeah. >> What's holding us back? Or what's accelerating us? What's the key for the community at large from the engineering community and the business community to make it go faster? Your thoughts? >> Right, so I think we're still searching for the next killer app. If Bitcoin is the reason we're all sitting here today and I profoundly believe that. >> Yeah. >> What is the next thing that drives change on a global scale? That's kind of what we're trying, collectively as an industry, to figure out. Sure, many kind of roadblocks on the way. Some of them educational, perceptional, regulation, technology, but the next big wave that's going to accelerate us to the next ten years of block chain is that next killer app. Organizations such as myself, Jenna, that's our day job, we wake up and that's what we do. >> I mean I've always said, and Dr. Wong, who's the founder of Alibaba Cloud agreed with me, I've been saying that the TCPIP protocol, that standard really enabled a lot of interoperability and created lots of diverse value up the stacks of the OSI model, Open Systems Interconnect, seven layer model, actually never got standardized. It's kind of stopped at TCPIP and that was good, everyone snapped at the line, that created massive value. >> But that's a collaborative governance thing. That's people coming together and saying that these are the standards that we wish to adhere to. >> We need the moment right now. >> Yeah, so you see organizations like the Enterprise Ethereum Alliance coming out with a prospective list of standards that they think the community should adhere here. You know you have the ERC20 standard, you have all these different organizations, the World Economic Forum is playing a role in that and the UN is playing a role, especially when it comes to identity and those kind of really big, societal issues but I think that it comes down to that everyone plays a role that I'm doing my best, I think it's going to be somewhere in the realm of data so that's where I've chosen to sort of make my course. >> I think this is a good conversation to have, and I think we could continue it. I mean, I read on Medium, everyone's reading these fat protocols, thin protocols but at the end of the day what does that matter if there's no like scale? >> Yeah. >> You can have all the fat protocols you want, more of a land grab I would say but there's certainly models but is that subordinate or is that the cart before the horse? This is the conversation I think is in the hallways. >> Totally agree, totally agreed. >> Guys, thanks so much for coming on theCUBE, really appreciate it. Breaking down real world applications of block chain we're at the Global Cloud and Block Chain Summit. It's an inaugural event and think it's going to be the kind of format we're going to see more of, cloud and block chain coming together. Collision course or is it going to come in nicely and land together and work together? We'll see, of course theCUBE's covering it. Thanks for watching. Stay with us for more all day coverage. Part of the Futurist Conference coming up the next two days. We're in Toronto, we'll be back with more after this short break. (theCUBE theme music)

>> Announcer: Live from Washington, D.C., it's theCUBE covering AWS Public Sector Summit 2017. Brought to you by Amazon Web Services and it's partner ecosystem. >> Welcome back, live here on theCUBE along with John Furrier, I'm John Walls. Welcome to AWS Public Sector Summit 2017. Again, live from Washington, D.C., your nation's capital, our nation's capital. With us now is our host for the week, puts on one heck of a show, I'm want to tell you, 10,000 strong here, jammed into the Washington Convention Center, Theresa Carlson from World Wide Public Sector. Nice to have you here, Theresa. >> Hi, good afternoon. >> Thanks for joining us. >> Love theCUBE and thank you for being here with us today. >> Absolutely. >> All week in fact. >> It's been great, it really has. Let's just talk about the show first off. Way back, six years ago, we could probably get everybody there jammed into our little area here, just about I think. >> Pretty much. >> Hard to do today. >> That's right. >> How do you feel about when you've seen this kind of growth not only of the show, but in your sector in general? >> I think at AWS we're humbled and excited and, on a personal level because I was sort of given the charge of go create this Public Sector business world-wide, I'm blown away, I pinch myself every time because you did hear my story. The first event, we had about 50 people in the basement of some hotel. And then, we're like, okay. And today, 10,000 people. Last year we had it at the Marriott Wardman Park and we shut down Connecticut Avenue so we knew we needed to make a change. (laughing) But it's great, this is really about our customers and partners. This is really for them. It's for them to make connections, share, and the whole theme of this is superheroes and they are our superheroes. >> One of the heroes you had on the stage today, John Edwards from the CIA, one of your poster-children if you will for great success and that kind of collaboration, said something to the effect of quote, "The best decision we ever made at the CIA "was engaging with AWS in that partnership." When you hear something like that from such a treasured partner, you got to feel pretty good. >> You just have to drop the microphone, boom, and you're sort of done. They are doing amazing work and their innovation levels are really leading, I would say, in the US Public Sector for sure and also, not just in US Public Sector but around the world. Their efforts of what they're doing and the scale and reach at which they're doing it so that's pretty cool. >> John, you've talked about the CIA moment, I'd like to hear the story, share with Theresa. >> Oh, you're going to steal my thunder here? >> No, I'm setting you up. That's what a good partner does. It's all yours. >> Well, John, we've talked multiple times already so I'll say it for the third time. The shot heard around the cloud was my definition of seminal moment, in big mega-trends there's always a moment. It was when Obama tweeted, Twitter grew, plane landing on the Hudson, there's always a seminal moment in major trends that make or break companies. For you guys, it was the CIA. Since then, it's just been a massive growth for you guys. That deal was interesting because it validated Shadow IT, validated the cloud, and it also unseated IBM, the behemoth sales organization that owned the account. In a way, a lot of things lined up. Take us through what's happened then, and since then to now. >> Well, you saw between yesterday at Werner Vogels' keynote and my keynote this morning, just the breadth and depth of the type of customers we have. Everything from the UK government, GCHQ, the Department of Justice with the IT in the UK, to the centers for Medicare for HHS, to amazing educational companies, Cal. Polytech., Australian Tax Office. That's just the breadth and depth of the type of customers we have and all of their stories were impactful, every story is impactful in their own way and across whatever sector they have. That really just tells you that the type of workloads that people are running has evolved because I remember in the early days, when you and I first talked, we talked about what are the kind of workloads and we were talking a little bit about website hosting. That's, of course, really evolved into things like machine learning, artificial intelligence, a massive scale of applications. >> Five or six years ago when we first chatted at re:Invent, it's interesting 'cause now this is the size of re:Invent what it was then so you're on a same trajectory from a show size. Again, validation to the growth in Public Sector. But I was complimenting you on our opening today, saying that you're tenacious because we've talked early days, it was a slog in the early days to get going in the cloud, you were knocking on a lot of doors, convincing people, hey, the future's going to look his way and I don't want to say they slammed the proverbial door in your face but it was more of, woah, they don't believe the cloud is ever going to happen for the government. Share some of those stories because now, looking back, obviously the world has changed. >> It has and, in fact, it's changed in many aspects of it, from policy makers, which I think would be great for you all to have on here sometime to get their perspective on cloud, but policy makers who are now thinking about, we just had a new modernization of IT mandate come out in the US Federal Government where they're going to give millions and millions of dollars toward the modernization of IT for US Government agencies which is going to be huge. That's the first time that's ever happened. To an executive order around cyber-security which is pretty much mandated to look at cloud and how you use it. You're seeing thing like that to even how grants are given where it used to be an old-school model of hardware only to now use cloud. Those ideas and aspects of how individuals are using IT but also just the procurements that are coming out. The buying vehicles that you're seeing come out of government, almost all of them have cloud now. >> John and I were talking about D.C. and the political climate. Obviously, we always talk about it on my show, comment on that. But, interesting, theCUBE, we could do damage here in D.C.. So much target-rich environment for content but more than ever, to me, is the tech scene here is really intrinsically different. For example, this is not a shiny new toy kind of trend, it is a fundamental transformation of the business model. What's interesting to me is, again, since the CIA shot heard around the cloud moment, you've seen a real shift in operating model. So the question I have for you, Theresa, if you can comment on this is: how has that changed? How has the procuring of technology changed? How has he human side of it changed? Because people want to do a good job, they're just on minicomputers and mainframes from the old days with small incremental improvement over the years in IT but now to a fundamental, agile, there's going to be more apps, more action. >> You said something really important just a moment ago, this is a different kind of group than you'll get in Silicon Valley and it is but it's very enterprise. Everybody you see here, every project they work on, we're talking DoD, the enterprise of enterprises. They have really challenging and tough problems to solve every day. How that's changed, in the old days here in government, they know how to write acquisitions for a missile or a tank or something really big in IT. What's changing is their ability to write acquisitions for agile IT, things like cloud utility based models, moving fast, flywheel approach to IT acquisitions. That's what's changing, that kind of acquisition model. Also, you're seeing the system integrator community here change. Where they were, what I call, body shops to do a lot of these projects, they're having to evolve their IT skills, they're getting much more certified in areas of AWS, at the system admin to certified solution architects at the highest level, to really roll these projects out. So training, education, the type of acquisition, and how they're doing it. >> What happened in terms of paradigm shift, mindset? Something had to happen 'cause you brought a vision to the table but somebody had to buy it. Usually, when we talk about legacy systems, it was a legacy mindset too, resistant, reluctant, cautious, all those things. >> Theresa: Well, everything gets thrown out. >> What happened? Where did it tip the other way? Where did it go? >> I think, over time, it's different parts of the government but culture is the hardest thing to, always, change. Other elements of any changes, you get there, but culture is fundamentally the hardest thing. You're seeing that. You've always heard us say, you can't fight gravity, and cloud is the new normal. That's for the whole culture. People are like, I cannot do my project anymore without the use of cloud computing. >> We also have a saying, you can't fight fashion either, and sometimes being in fashion is what the trends are going on. So I got to ask you, what is the fashion statement in cloud these days with your customers? Is it, you mentioned there, moving much down in the workload, is it multi-cloud? Is it analytics? Where's the fashionable, cool action right now? >> I think, here, right now, the cool thing that people really are talking about are artificial intelligence and machine learning, how they take advantage of that. You heard a lot about recognition yesterday, Poly and Lex, these new tools how they are so differentiating anything that they can possibly develop quickly. It's those kind of tools that really we're hearing and of course, IOT for state and local is a big deal. >> I got to ask you the hard question, I always ask Andy a hard question too, if he's watching, you're going to get this one probably at re:Invent. Amazon is a devops culture, you ship code fast and you make all these updates and it's moving very, very fast. One of the things that you guys have done well, but I still think you need some work to do in terms of critical analysis, is getting the releases out that are on public cloud into the GovCloud. You guys have shortened that down to less than a year on most things. You got the east region now rolled out so full disaster recovery but government has always been lagging behind most commercial. How are you guys shrinking that window? When do you see the day when push button commercial, GovCloud are all lockstep and pushing code to both clouds? >> We could do that today but there's a couple of big differentiators that are important for the GovCloud. That is it requires US citizenship, which as you know, we've talked about the challenges of technology and skills. That's just out there, right? At Amazon Web Services, we're a very diverse company, a group of individuals that do our coding and development, and not all of them are US citizens. So for these two clouds, you have to be a US citizen so that is an inhibitor. >> In terms of developers? In terms of building the product? >> Not building but the management aspect. Because of their design, we have multiple individuals managing multiple clouds, right? Now, with us, it's about getting that scale going, that flywheel for us. >> So now it's going to be managed in the USA versus made in the USA with everything as a service. >> Yeah, it is. For us, it's about making sure, number one, we can roll them out, but secondly, we do not want to roll services into those clouds unless they are critical. We are moving a lot faster, we rolled in a lot more services, and the other cool thing is we're starting to do some unique things for our GovCloud regions which, maybe the next time, we can talk a little bit more about those things. >> Final question for me, and let John jump in, the CIA has got this devops factory thing, I want you to talk about it because I think it points to the trend that's encouraging to me at least 'cause I'm skeptical on government, as you know. But this is a full transformation shift on how they do development. Talk about these 4000 developers that got rid of their development workstations, are now doing cloud, and the question is, who else is doing it? Is this a trend that you see happening across other agencies? >> The reason that's really important, I know you know, in the old-school model, you waited forever to provision anything, even just to do development, and you heard John talk about that. That's what he meant on this sort of workstation, this long period of time it took for them to do any kind of development. Now, what they do is they just use any move they have and they go and they provision the cloud like that. Then, they can also not just do that, they can create armies of cores or Amazon machine images so they have super-repeatable tools. Think about that. When you have these super-repeatable tools sitting in the cloud, that you can just pull down these machine images and begin to create both code and development and build off those building blocks, you move so much faster than you did in the past. So that's sort of a big trend, I would say they're definitely leading it. But other key groups are NASA, HHS, Department of Justice. Those are some of the key, big groups that we're seeing really do a lot changes in their dev. >> I got to ask you about the-- >> Oh, I have to say DHS, also DHS on customs and border patrols, they're doing the same, really innovators. >> One of the things that's happening which I'm intrigued by is the whole digital transformation in our culture, right, society. Certainly, the Federal Government wants to take care of the civil liberties of the citizens. So it's not a privacy question, it's more about where smart cities is going. We're starting to see, I call, the digital parks, if you will, where you're starting to see a digital park go into Yosemite and camping out and using pristine resources and enjoying them. There's a demand for citizens to democratize resources available to them, supercomputing or datasets, what's your philosophy on that? What is Amazon doing to facilitate and accelerate the citizen's value of technology so it can be in the hands of anyone? >> I love that question because I'll tell you, at the heart of our business is what we call citizen service, paving the way for disruptive innovation, making the world a better place. That's through citizen's services and they're access. For us, we have multiple things. Everything from our dataset program, where we fund multiple datasets that we put up on the cloud and let everybody take advantage of them, from the individual student to the researcher, for no fee. >> John F.: You pick up the cost on that? >> We do, we fund, we put those datasets in completely, we allow them to go and explore and use. The only time they would ever pay is if they go off and start creating their own systems. The most highly curated datasets up there right now are pretty much on AWS. You heard me talk about the earth, through AWS Earth that we have that shows the earth. We have weather datasets, cancer datasets, we're working with so many groups, genomic, phenotypes, genomes of rice, the rice genome that we've done. >> So this is something that you see that you're behind, >> Oh, completely. >> you're passionate about and will continue to do? >> Because you never know when that individual student or small community school is out there and they can access tools that they never could've accessed before. The training and education, that creativity of the mind, we need to open that up to everybody and we fundamentally believe that cloud is a huge opportunity for that. You heard me tell the 1000 genomes story in the past of where took that cancer dataset or that genome dataset from NIH, put it into AWS for the first time, the first week we put it up we had 3200 new researchers crowdsource on that dataset. That was the first time, that I know of, that anyone had put up a major dataset for researchers. >> And the scale, certainly, is a great resource. And smart cities is an interesting area. I want to get your thoughts on your relationship with Intel. They have 5G coming out, they have a full network transformation, you're going to have autonomous vehicles out there, you're going to have all kinds of digital. How are you guys planning on powering the cloud and what's the role that Intel will play with you guys in the relationship? >> Of course, serverless computing comes into play significantly in areas like that because you want to create efficiencies, even in the cloud, we're all about that. People have always said, oh, AWS won't do that 'cause that's disrupting themselves. We're okay with disrupting ourselves if it's the right thing. We also don't want to hog resourcing of these tools that aren't necessary. So when it comes to devices like that and IOT, you need very efficient computing and you need tools that allow that efficient computing to both scale but not over-resource things. You'll see us continue to have models like that around IOT, or lambda, or serverless computing and how we access and make sure that those resources are used appropriately. >> We're almost out of time so I'd like to shift over if we can. Really impressed with the NGO work, the non-profit work as well and your work in the education space. Just talk about the nuance, differences between working with those particular constituents in the customer base, what you've learned and the kind of work you're providing in those silos right now. >> They are amazing, they are so frugal with their resources and it makes you hungry to really want to go out and help their mission because what you will find when you go meet with a lot of these not-for-profits, they are doing some of the most amazing work that even many people have really not heard of and they're being so frugal with how they resource and drive IT. There's a program called Feed the World and I met the developer of this and it's like two people. They've fed millions of people around the world with like three developers and creating an app and doing great work. To everything from like the American Heart Association that has a mission, literally, of stopping heart disease which is our number one killer around the world. When you meet them and you see the things they're doing and how they are using cloud computing to change and forward their mission. You heard us talk about human trafficking, it's a horrible, misunderstood environment out there that more of us need to be informed on and help with but computing can be a complete differentiator for them, cloud computing. We give millions of dollars of grants away, not just give away, we help them. We help them with the technical resourcing, how they're efficient, and we work really hard to try to help forward their mission and get the word out. It's humbling and it's really nice to feel that you're not only doing things for big governments but you also can help that individual not-for-profit that has a mission that's really important to not only them but groups in the world. >> It's a different level of citizen service, right? I mean, ocean conservancy this morning, talking about that and tidal change. >> What's the biggest thing that, in your mind, personal question, obviously you've been through from the beginning to now, a lot more growth ahead of you. I'm speculating that AWS Public Sector, although you won't disclose the numbers, I'll find a number out there. It's big, you guys could run the table and take a big share, similar to what you've done with startup and now enterprise market. Do you have a pinch-me moment where you go, where are we? Where are you on that spectrum of self-awareness of what's actually happening to you and this world and your team? In Public Sector, we operate just like all of AWS and all of Amazon. We really have treated this business like a startup and I create new teams just like everybody else does. I make them frugal and small and I say go do this. I will tell you, I don't even think about it because we are just scratching the surface, we are just getting going, and today we have customers in 155 countries and I have employees in about 25 countries now. Seven years ago, that was not the case. When you're moving that fast, you know that you're just getting going and that you have so much more that you can do to help your customers and create a partner ecosystem. It's a mission for us, it really is a mission and my team and myself are really excited, out there every day working to support our customers, to really grow and get them moving faster. We sort of keep pushing them to go faster. We have a long way to go and maybe ask me five years from now, we'll see. >> How about next year? We'll come back, we'll ask you again next year. >> Yeah, maybe I'll know more next year. >> John W.: Theresa, thank you for the time, very generous with your time. I know you have a big schedule over the course of this week so thank you for being here with us once again on theCUBE. >> Thank you. >> Many time CUBE alum, Theresa Carlson from AWS. Back with more here from the AWS Public Sector Summit 2017, Washington, D.C. right after this. (electronic music)

>> Narrator: Live from Washington DC, it's theCube, covering AWS Public Sector Summit 2017. Brought to you by Amazon Web Services and its partner Ecosystem. >> Welcome back here to Washington, D.C. You're watching Cube Live here at Silicon Angle T.V. The flagship broadcast of Silicon Angle. We are at AWS Public Sector Summit 2017 wrapping up day one coverage here in the Walter Washington Convention Center. Along with John Furrier, we are now joined by our esteemed colleague Jeff Frick who's been alongside all day handling all the machinations behind the scenes. >> Behind the scenes, John. >> John: Doing an admirable job of that, Jeff. >> So what do you think, our first ever visit to your town. >> John: I love it, I love it. >> I sense something tableau at the Opry. The Opry's the other big convention center, here, or Graceland. >> International Harbor. >> It's the same company. >> National harbor, MGM. >> You're a D.C. guy. >> Gaylord. >> Gaylord, thank you. >> What's the connection? So we going to get some tickets for the Nationals game? >> We got Nats game tonight, Strasburg pitched last night, did not pitch well, but who knows? Maybe we'll get Gio tonight. >> Well the action certainly Amazon Web Services >> Yeah let's talk about what we have going on here today, Jeff. >> Well, I mean, we interviewed, you and I did some great interviews. Intel came on, which is obviously Bellwether in the tech business. Jeff, former Intel employee knows what it's like to march to the cadence of Moore's law and Intel is continuing to do well in platinum sponsor or diamond sponsor here at the event. Look it, the chips are getting smarter and smarter, security at the Silicon, powering 5G, a networks transmission, a lot of the plumbing that's going on in cloud and in cars and devices and companies, it's going to all be connected. So it's a connected world we're living in and Intel's going to be a key part of that so they're highly interested and motivated by all the people that are popping up in the cloud. >> We were just talking and Jeff, I know, you're able to listen on the last interview that we did, but a point that you made, that, you know, a point that you raised, about four years ago, when the CIA deal came down and AWS is ON one side and IBM's on the other, and AWS wins that battle. You called it the shot heard round the cloud. And that, now four years later, has turned out to be a hugely pivotal moment. >> Yeah, I mean this is like moments in time history here, again, documenting it on the Cube for the first time. I don't think anything was written about this I'll say it since we're going to be analyzing it. The shot heard around the cloud was 2013 when AWS public sector under Teresa Carlton's team and her leadership, beat IBM for the Central Intelligence Agency, CIA, contract. Guaranteed lots of spec for IBM. Amazon comes out of the woodwork and wins it. And they won it because essentially the sales motion and the power of IBM had this thing lopped in. But at that time the marketplace was booming with what we call Shadow IT, where you could put your credit card down and go into Amazon cloud and get some instants. What happened was someone actually cut a little prototype, showed their boss, and they said, "I like that better than that, let's do a bake-off." So what happened was at the last minute, new opportunity comes in and then they do what they call a bake-off. Bake-offs and RAPs come in and they won. Went to court and the judge in the ruling actually said Amazon has a better product. So they ruled in favor of Amazon Web Services. That was what I called the shot heard around the cloud. Since that point on, the cloud has become more legitimate every single day for not only startups, enterprises, as well as now public sector. So shot heard around the cloud fast forward to today, this show's on a trajectory to take on the pace of re:Invent, which as their core Amazon Web Services show, then of course which is why we're here chronicalizing this moment in history. This is where we believe, Jeff you and I talked about this, and Dave Alante and I talked about the research team, this is where the influction point kicks up. This is a new growth pillar unpredicted by Wall Street, new growth predictor for revenue for Amazon, they're already a cash machine. They're already looking like a hockey stick this way. You add on public sector, it's going to be phenomenal. So, a lot of people are seeing it but this is just growing like a weed. >> Jeff, follow up on that. >> I was going to say, the two mega trends, John, that we've talked about time and time again, and Teresa Carlson and team have done a terrific job here in the public sector, but I always go back to the James, Tuesday night in the James Hamilton at re:Invent, and if you've never gone you got to go, and he talks about just all these big iron infrastructure investments that Amazon continues to make because they have such scale behind them. Whether it's in chips, whether it's in networking, whether it's in new fibers that they're running across the oceans. They can invest so much money to the benefit of their customers, whether it be security, you know, in all the areas of compute, that is fascinating to me. The other thing we always hear about, about cloud, right, is at some point, it's cheaper to own rather than rent. We just keep coming back to Netflix, like at nighttime, I think Netflix owns whatever the number, 45 percent of all internet traffic in the evening is Netflix, whatever the number is. They're still on Amazon. So, it's not necessarily better to rent than buy. You have to know what you're doing and we were at another show the other day, it was Gannet, the newspaper company. When they're using a lot of servers, they use hundreds, but he said there are sometimes, using AWS, that they actually turn all the servers off. You cannot do that in a standard infrastructure world. You can't turn everything off and then on. Which again, you got to manage it. You don't want the expensive bill. But to me, being able to leverage such scale to the benefit of every customer whether it's Netflix or a startup, it's pretty tough. >> And this is the secret, and this is something again, shared with the Cube audience, here, is not new to us, but we're going to re-amplify it because the people make a mistake with the cloud, it's in one area, they don't match the business model to their variable cost expenses. If you get into the cloud business, and you can actually ratchet your revenue coming in and then manage that cost delta redline, blackline, know where those lines are, as long as you're in the black, and revenue, and you then have the cost variable step up with your revenue, that is the magical formula. It's not that hard, it's back of an envelope. >> Right, right. >> Red line cost, black line revenue. >> The other great story, it was from summit, actually, in San Francisco earlier this year, at they keynote, they had Nextdoor, everybody knows Nextdoor it's the social media for your mom, my mom. They love it, right, people are losing dogs, and looking for a plumber, but the guy talked from about Nextdoor. >> John: Don't knock Nextdoor. >> I don't knock Nextdoor, the Nextdoor CEO gets up and he said, well, I laugh because the Nextdoor guy's mom didn't know what he did until he did Nextdoor. Anyway, he said, you know, we have the entire production system for Nextdoor. And then we would build production plus one on a completely separate group of hardwares inside of Amazon. When that was tested out and ready to run, guess what, we just turn off the first one. You can't, you can't, you can't do that in an owned infrastructure world. You can't build N and N plus one and N plus two and turn off N, you just can't do that. >> Well, the Fugue CEO, Josh, everyone should check out on Youtube.com/siliconangle, he was awesome. He basically saw a throwaway infrastructure mindset to your point about Nextdoor. You build it up and then you bring your new stuff in, you digitally throw it away. >> Right, right. >> That's the future. And this is the business model aspect. And public sector, we were joking, look it, let's just be honest with ourselves, it is a glacier antiquated old systems, people trying hard, you know, government servants, you know, that, employees of the government, not appointees, they don't have a lot of budget and they're always under scrutiny for cost. So the cost benefits always there and they have old systems. So they want new systems. So the demand is there. The question is, can they pull it off. >> So, talk about the government mindset or the shift. We've heard a little bit about that today. About how, to the point that you just made there, John, that you know, very reluctant, some foot-dragging going on, that's historical, that's what happens. But now, maybe the CIA deal, whatever it was, we hit that tipping point, and all the sudden, the minds are opening, and some people are embracing, or being more engaging, with new mousetraps, with better ways to do things. >> We've got the speakers coming on here, so we should wrap it up real quick. Final thoughts, from Day One. >> I was just going to say that the other thing is that before there was so much fat, in not only government in general, but in infrastructure purchasing, 'cause you had to, you better not run out of hardware at Q3 when you're running the numbers. So everything was so over provision, so much expense and over provisioning. With Amazon you don't need to over provision. You can tap it when you need it and turn it off so there's a huge amount of budget that should actually be released. >> I want to ask you guys, we'll wrap up here, final, since you're emceeing, final thoughts. What is your impression of day one? I'll start here and you guys can have time to think of an answer. My takeaway for public sector is Teresa Carlson has risen up as a prime executive for Amazon Web Services. She went from knocking doors eight years ago to full on blown growth strategy for Amazon. And it's very clear, they're not there yet. They only have 10,000 people here, so the conference isn't that massive. But it's on its way to becoming massive. Here's their issue. They have to start getting the cadence of re:Invent launches into the public sector. And that's the big story here. They are quickly shortening the cycles between what they launch at Amazon re:Invent and what they roll out of the public sector. The question is how fast can they do that? And that's what we're going to be watching. And then the customer behaviors starting to procure. So greenlight for Amazon. But they got to get those release cycles. Stuff gets released at Amazon re:Invent, they got to roll them with government, shorten that down to almost zero, they'll win. >> Yeah, my just quick impression is, I like to look at the booth action, because we've all had booth duty, right. What's going on in the booths? Did the people that paid for a booth here feel like they got their money's worth? And the traffic in the booths has been good, they've been three deep, four deep. So the people that are here are curious they're interested, they're spending time going booth to booth to booth, and that's a very good sign. >> This is a learning conference. Alright your thoughts. >> I would say, the only thing that is, I wouldn't say it's a red light by any means, but it's like a caution light, it's about budgets, you know, when you run government, you're always, you are vulnerable to somebody else's budget decision. I'm, you know, whether it's Congress, whether it's a city council, whether it's a state legislation, whatever it is, that's always just kind of a, a little hangup you have to deal with because you might have the best mousetrap in the world, but if somebody says nah, you can't write that check this year, maybe next year. We're going to put our money somewhere else. That's the only thing. >> I got my Trump joke in, I don't know if you heard that, but my Trump joke is, I'll say it at the end, there's a lot of data lakes in D.C., and they've turned into data swamps. So Amazon's here to drain the data swamp. >> Jeff: He got it in. He's been practicing that all week. >> I've heard it three times, are you kidding? Funny every time. >> Well you know our Cube, you know we talk about data swamps. I hate the word data lake, as everyone knows, I just hate that word, it's just not. >> Well, there is value in that swamp. >> Hated the word data lake. >> For Jeff Rick, John Furrier, I'm John Walsh. Thank you for joining us here at the AWS Public Sector Summit 2017. Back tomorrow with more coverage, live here on the Cube.

(Rhythm music) >> Narrator: Live, from Munich, Germany, it's The Cube. Coverage, DataWorks Summit Europe, 2017. Brought to you by Hortonworks. >> Okay, welcome back everyone. We are live in Munich, Germany for DataWorks 2017, formally known as Hadoop Summit. This is The Cube special coverage of the Big Data world. I'm John Furrier my co-host Dave Vallente. Two days of live coverage, day one wrapping up. Now, Dave, we're just kind of reviewing the scene here. First of all, Europe is a different vibe. But the game is still the same. It's about Big Data evolving from Hadoop to full open source penetration. Puppy's now public in markets Hortonworks, Cloudera is now filing an S-1, Neosoft, Talon, variety of the other public companies. Alteryx. Hadoop is not dead, it's not dying. It certainly is going to have a position in the industry, but the Big Data conversation is front and center. And one thing that's striking to me is that in Europe, more than in the North America, is IOT is more centrally themed in this event. Europe is on the Internet of Things because of the manufacturing, smart cities. So this is a lot of IOT happening here, and I think this is a big discovery certainly, Hortonworks event is much more of a community event than Strata Hadoop. Which is much more about making money and modernization. This show's got a lot more engagement with real conversations and developers sessions. Very engaging audience. Well, yeah, it's Europe. So you've go a little bit different smaller show than North America but to me, IOT, Internet of Things, is bringing the other cloud world with Big Data. That's the forcing function. And real time data is the center of the action. I think is going to be a continuing theme as we move forward. >> So, in 2010 John, it was all about 'What is Hadoop?' With the middle part of that decade was all about Hadoop's got to go into the enterprise. It's gone mainstream in to the enterprise, and now it's sort of 'what's next?' Same wine new bottle. But I will say this, Hadoop, as you pointed out, is not dead. And I liken it to the early web. Web one dot O it was profound. It was a new paradigm. The profundity of Hadoop was that you could ship five megabytes of code to a petabyte of data. And that was the new model and that's spawned, that's catalyzed the Big Data movement. That is with us now and it's entrenched, and now you're seeing layers of innovation on top of that. >> Yeah, and I would just reiterate and reinforce that point by saying that Cloudera, the founders of this industry if you will, with Hadoop the first company to be commercially funded to do what Hortonworks came in after the fact out of Yahoo, came out of a web-scale world. So you have the cloud native DevOps culture, Amar Ujala's at Yahoo, Mike Olson, Jeff Hammerbacher, Christopher Vercelli. These guys were hardcore large-scale data guys. Again, this is the continuation of the evolution, and I think nothing is changed it that regard because those pioneers have set the stage for now the commercialization and now the conversation around operationalizing this cloud is big. And having Alan Nance, a practitioner, rock-star, talking about radical deployments that can drop a billion dollars at a cost savings to the bottom line. This is the kind of conversations we're going to see more of this is going to change the game from, you know, "Hey, I'm the CFO buyer" or "CIO doing IT", to an operational CEO, chief operating officer level conversation. That operational model of cloud is now coming into the view what ERP did in software, those kinds of megatrends, this is happening right now. >> As we talk about the open, the people who are going to make the real money on Big Data are the practitioners, those people applying it. We talked about Alan Nance's example of billion dollar, half a billion dollar cost-savings revenue opportunities, that's where the money's being made. It's not being made, yet anyway with these public companies. You're seeing it Splunk, Tableau, now Cloudera, Hortonworks, MapR. Is MapR even here? >> Haven't seen 'em. >> No I haven't seen MapR, they used to have pretty prominent display at the show. >> You brought up point I want to get back to. This relates to those guys, which is, profitless prosperity. >> Yeah. >> A term used for open source. I think there's a trend happening and I can't put a finger on it but I can kind of feel it. That is the ecosystems of open source are now going to a dimension where they're not yet valued in the classic sense. Most people that build platforms value ecosystems, that's where developers came from. Developer ecosystems fuel open source. But if you look at enterprise, at transformations over the decades, you'd see the successful companies have ecosystems of channel partners; ecosystems of indirect sales if you will. We're seeing the formation, at least I can start seeing the formation of an indirect engine of value creation, vis-à-vis this organic developer community where the people are building businesses and companies. Shaun Connolly pointed to Thintech as an example. Where these startups became financial services businesses that became Thintech suppliers, the banks. They're not in the banking business per se, but they're becoming as important as banks 'cuz they're the providers in Thintech, Thintech being financial tech. So you're starting to see this ecosystem of not "channel partners", resell my equipment or software in the classic sense as we know them as they're called channel partners. But if this continues to develop, the thousand flower blooming strategy, you could argue that Hortonworks is undervalued as a company because they're not realizing those gains yet or those gains can't be measured. So if you're an MBA or an investment banker, you've got to be looking at the market saying, "wow, is there a net-present value to an ecosystem?" It begs the question Dave. >> Dave: It's a great question John. >> This is a wealth creation. A rising tide floats all boats, in that rising tide is a ecosystem value number there. No one has their hands on that, no one's talked about that. That is the upshot in my mind, the silver-lining to what some are saying is the consolidation of Hadoop. Some are saying Cloudera is going to get a huge haircut off their four point one billion dollar value. >> Dave: I think that's inevitable. >> Which is some say, they may lose two to three billion in value, in the IPO. Post IPO which would put them in line with Hortonworks based on the numbers. You know, is that good or bad? I don't think it's bad because the value shifts to the ecosystem. Both Cloudera and Hortonworks both play in open source so you can be glass half-full on one hand, on the haircut, upcoming for Cloudera, two saying "No, the glass is half-full because it's a haircut in the short-term maybe", if that happens. I mean some said Pure Storage was going to get a haircut, they never really did Dave. So, again, no one yet has pegged the valuation of an ecosystem. >> Well, and I think that is a great point, personally I think, I've been sort of racking my brain, will this Big Data hike be realized. Like the internet. You remember the internet hyped up, then it crashed; no one wanted to own any of these companies. But it actually lived up to the hype. It actually exceeded the hype. >> You can get pet food online now, it's called amazon. [Co-Hosts Chuckle Together] All the e-commerce played out. >> Right, e-commerce played out. But I think you're right. But everybody's expecting sort of, was expecting a similar type of cycle. "Oh, this will replace that." And that's now what's going to happen. What's going to happen is the ecosystem is going to create a flywheel effect, is really what you're saying. >> Jeff: Yes. >> And there will be huge valuations that emerge out of this. But today, the guys that we know and love, the Hortonworks, the Clouderas, et cetera, aren't really on the winners list, I mean some of their founders maybe are. But who are the winners? Maybe the customers because they saw a big drop in cost. Apache's a big winner here. Wouldn't ya say? >> Yeah. >> Apache's looking pretty good, Apache Foundation. I would say AWS is a pretty big winner. They're drifting off of this. How about Microsoft and IBM? I mean I feel in a way IBM is sort of co-opted this Big Data meme, and said, "okay, cognitive." And layered all of it's stuff on top of it. Bought the weather company, repositioned the company, now it hasn't translated in to growth, but certainly has profitability implications. >> IBM plays well here, I'll tell you why. They're very big in open source, so that's positive. Two, they have huge track record and staff dealing with professional services in the enterprise. So if transformation is the journey conversation, IBM's right there. You can't ignore IBM on this one. Now, the stack might be different, but again, beauty is in the eye of the beholder because depending on what work clothes you have it depends. IBM is not going to leave you high and dry 'cuz they have a really you need for what they can do with their customers. Where people are going to get blindsided in my opinion, the IBMs and Oracles of the world, and even Microsoft, is what Alan Nance was talking about, the radical transformation around the operating model is going to force people to figure out when to start cannibalizing their own stacks. That's going to be a tell sign for winners and losers in the big game. Because if IBM can shift quickly and co-op the megatrends, make it their own, get out in front of that next wave as Pat Gelsinger would say, they could surf that wave and then tweak, and then get out in front. If they don't get behind that next wave, they're driftwood. It really is all about where you are in the spectrum, and analytics is one of those things in data where, you've got to have a cohesive horizontal strategy. You got to be horizontally scalable with data. You got to make data freely available. You have to have an abstraction layer of software that will allow free movement of data, across systems. That's the number one thing that comes out of seeing the Hortonwork's data platform for instance. Shaun Connolly called it 'connective tissue'. Cloudera is the same thing, they have to start figuring out ways to be better at the data across the horizontal view. Cloudera like IBM has an opportunity as well, to get out in front of the next wave. I think you can see that with AI and machine learning, clearly they're going to go after that. >> Just to finish off on the winners and losers; I mean, the other winner is systems integrators to service these companies. But I like what you said about cannibalizing stacks as an indicator of what's happening. So let's talk about that. Oracle clearly cannibalizing it's stacks, saying, "okay, we're going to the red stack to the cloud, go." Microsoft has made that decision to do that. IBM? To a large degree is cannibalizing it's stack. HP sold off it's stack, said, "we don't want to cannibalize our stack, we want to sell and try to retool." >> So, your question, your point? >> So, haven't they already begun to do that, the big legacy companies? >> They're doing their tweaking the collet and mog, as an example. At Oracle Open World and IBM Interconnect, all the shows we, except for Amazon, 'cuz they're pure cloud. All are taking the unique differentiation approach to their own stuff. IBM is putting stuff that's relate to IBM in their cloud. Oracle differentiates on their stack, for instance, I have no problem with Oracle because they have a huge database business. And, you're high as a kite if you think Oracle's going to lose that database business when data is the number one asset in the world. What Oracle's doing which I think is quite brilliant on Oracle's part is saying, "hey, if you want to run on premise with hardware, we got Sun, and oh by the way, our database is the fastest on our stuff." Check. Win. "Oh you want to move to the cloud? Come to the Oracle cloud, our database runs the fastest in our cloud", which is their stuff in the cloud. So if you're an Oracle customer you just can't lose there. So they created an inimitability around their own database. So does that mean they're going to win the new database war? Maybe not, but they can coexist as a system of records so that's a win. Microsoft Office 365, tightly coupling that with Azure is a brilliant move. Why wouldn't they do that? They're going to migrate their customer base to their own clouds. Oracle and Microsoft are going to migrate their customers to their own cloud. Differentiate and give their customers a gateway to the cloud. VVMware is partnering with Amazon. Brilliant move and they just sold vCloud Air which we reported at Silicon Angle last night, to a French company recently so vCloud Air is gone. Now that puts the VMware clearly in bed with Amazon web services. Great move for VMware, benefit to AWS, that's a differentiation for VMware. >> Dave: Somebody bought vCloud Air? >> I think you missed that last night 'cuz you were traveling. >> Chuckling: That's tongue-in-cheek, I mean what did they get for vCloud Air? >> OVH bought them, French company. >> More de-levering by Michael. >> Well, they're inter-clouding right? I mean de-leveraging the focus, right? So OVH, French company, has a very much coexisted... >> What'd they pay? >> ... strategy. It's undisclosed. >> Yeah, well why? 'Cuz it wasn't a big number. That's my point. >> Back to the other cloud players, Google. I think Google's differentiating on their technology. Great move, smart move. They just got to get, as someone who's been following them, and you know, you and I both love an enterprise experience. They got to speak the enterprise language and execute the language. Not through 19 year olds and interns or recent smart college grads ad and say, "we're instantly enterprise." There's a dis-economies of scale for trying to ramp up and trying to be too heavy on the enterprise. Amazon's got the same problem, you can't hire sales guy fast enough, and oh by the way, find me a sales guy that has ten 15 years executive selling experience to a complex strategic sales, like the enterprise where you now have stakeholders that are in multiple roles and changing roles as Alan Nance pointed out. So the enterprise game is very difficult. >> Yup. >> Very very difficult. >> Well, I think these dupe startups are seeing that. None of them are making money. Shaun Connolly basically said, "hey, it used to be growth they would pay for growth, but now their punishing you if you don't have growth plus profitability." By the way, that's not all totally true. Amazon makes no money, unless stock prices go through the roof. >> There is no self-service, there is no self-service business model for digital transformation for enterprise customers today. It doesn't exist. The value proposition doesn't resinate with customers. It works good for Shadow IT, and if you want to roll out G Suite in some pockets of your organization, but an ad-sense sales force doesn't work in the enterprise. Everyone's finding that out right now because they're basically transforming their enterprise. >> I think Google's going to solve their problem. I think Google has to solve their problem 'cuz... >> I think they will, but to me it's, buy a company, there's a zillion company out there they could buy tomorrow that are private, that have like 300 sales people that are senior people. Pay the bucks, buy a sales force, roll your stuff out and start speaking the language. I think Dianne Green gets this. So, I think, I expect to see Google ... >> Dave: Totally. >> do some things in that area. >> And I think, to you're point, I've always said the rich get richer. The traditional legacy companies, they're holding servant in this. They waited they waited they waited, and they said, "okay now we're going to go put our chips on the table." Oracle made it's bets. IBM made it's bets. HP, not really, betting on hardware. Okay. Fine. Cisco, Microsoft, they're all making their bets. >> It's all about bets on technology and profitability. This is what I'm looking at right now Dave. We talked about it on our intro. Shaun Connolly who's in charge of strategy at Hortonworks clarified it that clearly revenue, losing money is not going to solve the problem for credibility. Profitability matters. This comes back to the point we've said on The Cube multiple years ago and even just as recently as last year, that the world's flipping back down to credibility. Customers in the enterprise want to see credibility and track record. And they're going to evaluate the suppliers based upon key fundamentals in their business. Can they make money? Can they deliver SLAs? These are going to be key requirements, not the shiny new toy from Silicon Valley. Or the cool machine learning algorithm. It has to apply to their product, their value, and they're going to look to companies on the scoreboard and say, "are you profitable?" As a proxy for relevance. >> Well I want to keep it, but I do want to, we've been kind of critical of some of the Hadoop players. Cloudera and Hortonworks specifically. But I want to give them props 'cuz you remember well John, when the legacy enterprise guys started coming into the Hadoop market they all said that they had the same messaging, "we're going to make Hadoop enterprise ready." You remember that well, and I have to say that Hortonworks, Cloudera, I would say MapR as well and the ecosystem, have done a pretty good job of making Hadoop and Big Data enterprise ready. They were already working on it very hard, I think they took it seriously and I think that that's why they are in the mix and they are growing as they are. Shaun Connolly talked about them being operating cashflow positive. Eking out some plus cash. On the next earnings call, pressures on. But we want to see, you know, rocket ships. >> I think they've done a good job, I mean, I don't think anyone's been asleep at the switch. At all, enterprise ready. The questions always been "can they get there fast enough?" I think everyone's recognized that cost of ownership's down. We still solicit on the OpenStack ecosystem, and that they move right from the valley properties. So we'll keep an eye on it, tomorrow we'll be checking in. We got a great day tomorrow. Live coverage here in Munich, Germany for DataWorks 2017. More coverage tomorrow, stay with us. I'm John Furrier with Dave Vallente. Be right back with more tomorrow, day two. Keep following us.