>>Mhm. Mhm Hello and welcome back to the cubes coverage of AWS summit here. Public sector summit here in Washington, D. C. I'm john for your host, We're live at a physical event. People face to face. We're here with the cube on the ground back in business. Of course we have a virtual cube. We got the cube studios in Palo alto in boston. We're gonna bring you all the great coverage and our next guest is parallel casa, Anita Casanova got it. Chief of Channels at Pegasystems, also known as mega official titles, head of global partner ecosystem. But you're known as the Chief of channels. >>Absolutely, thank >>you for coming on. >>Absolutely nice to be here face to face in an event. >>Feel happy, feels good. It feels great. People are happy. I'm still good attendance. Considering what it is about 5, 6000 people roughly give or take maybe up to 7000, who knows. But you guys have a really strong relationship with AWS, you're the chief of the channel. You guys have a great enabling product that crashes itself, as you guys say. So let's get into it before explain what PEG A does. >>Okay, so paga he's a $1 billion dollar company. It's a software company and we call it that software built itself Because we are definitely here to crash customer complexity. So we do it by three doing three things, 1-1 customer engagement customers, customer service and also intelligent automation. So we are a platform and we are helping any single client that has a complex solution to make it simple and to have a good customer experience. >>So I got it wrong. It doesn't crash itself, it crashes complexity, It builds itself okay there it is. All right, I got that out of the way. Software that crashes itself actually doesn't really kind of doesn't sound like a compelling products, but it's not the case. So I gotta ask you So ecosystems are a big part of the cloud amazon has a great ecosystem but the ecosystem has ecosystem is starting to see an expansion of the cloud business with the software model. With cloud scale. What are you guys doing in the channel within the public sector? How do you guys work, how do people engage with you? >>Okay, so first of all we we were always very friendly channel partner but we were using our partners only for implementation because our product is so so uh built for each of the clients, there's a lot of services opportunity and we have very strong peg a practices in the different partners. But last year when I came in I came in almost 16 months ago we decided that we wanted also to improve our our sales with the partners. So we are engaging with partners and to and from the beginning of a sale cycle and brainstorming on what the client needs in order to be more efficient to reduce cost to the moment of the implementation. So we have been working with several uh system integrators, some resellers and with aws as our cloud platform. So we have been moving everything we can to the peg, a cloud that is on aws and clients are are really happy to be modernized in there because there you have the security, the scalability then you the new versions of the product without having to be worrying about it because it's done by our support. >>So it's software on amazon. So customers can buy your software through the marketplace or whatever through a partner or the marketplace and then they can still use the higher level services at in AWS, correct? >>They can use a high services in AWS or with any other partner system Integrator that also works with AWS and we have many cases where we are we we use the power of three. Right. We work with AWS accenture and and for example, Peg or we can use lay does or or booz allen or a parrot on any of the partners that are here in government. >>So you know, the channel equation, you're the chief of the channel. Channel channels love simplicity, simple products to buy. They love products that can throw off gross profit. And you said services, how is that going? Are you guys seeing a good economic equation with your partners? >>Well, our partners do between five and 10 IX of uh, of the revenue that we do on software on services. So that equation definitely works and they love it for that. At the same time we have invested five x the quantity of people that we have supporting the channel. For example, here in government we have invested also two or three times on the rest of the of the business. But there has been definitely good investments for partners. The partners are happy with us because again they not only they can do a good business one off, they can then radiate one. You usually clients one day once they buy peg for one of their use cases or case management as we call it, they usually want to replicate it in other cases and that is where the partners are doing enormous money because they are replicating the same use case in different departments. >>That's the way it's supposed to be, it's their touching the customer, they're adding value on top of your product. So they get to have the best of both worlds high margins on the profits and the services but yet worked with the customer directly to engage, make sure they get the right solution from you and a W. S together. >>Absolutely. Okay, >>what are the key challenges that you find that partners need to solve and overcome to keep this this this equation going. What do you guys focus on? You mentioned more people, what are some of the trends in the public cloud? I mean public sector area? What's this with the dynamics? >>So in in this moment the whole world is with a huge need of digital transformation the every single client but especially in government, they had all digital transformation projects. But they were going at slow motion because of the situation of the pandemic that I don't even want to name it again because everybody's talking about it but it's a reality. These projects have to accelerate 10 times. So whatever it was going to be done in five years has been done in one. So the biggest challenge that we are having is to ensure that we have that capacity to support all these projects that are being done very fast and and for that that's why we also need our partners right Because they have big mega practices. They have been investing as well as we are to ensure that we cover all those needs and but for now we are doing well and so that's that's right. We are growing as a company and with the partners >>carol great to have you on board with the company now kicking some butt now in the channel, Chief of channel good margins happy customers growth. What are some of the use case successes that you've had. Can you name a few customers and what they've done and what's their best practice? >>Well we have, I will name some government because we are in a public secretary event but we have and I will name north America although we also have in the rest of the world. So U. S. Census. That is something that everybody has done right. Even if you did in your mobile, you did it on paper, you did it on the phone. All of that was managed by paga And for the first time ever there was zero than downtime. Not a single problem to access the web. For example, the the US census took us 50% less expense than the one that we did in 2010 just because we use this digital approach And then we also were 50% more efficient because we needed, we didn't need to use all that paper storage that was used in the past. So we taxpayers have to be happy because they really spend less than what they should have spent on this topic. So definitely that was one of the biggest cases that we have in 2020. We have other, we took big big projects like the US and or we do smaller projects and there's one that is not small but that is smaller, that is the New Jersey court that caught my attention because I imagine myself in a situation like that that you are like my mistake taken to the court and you and they are, they are you have to defend yourself that was taking three hours and it's stressful, right? And you don't have to be there if you don't need to And this process got to 20 minutes, that is also reduction and expenses even jail expenses sometimes. So that was one that we did as well. And and that was just by making four legacy systems getting to one having a much faster experience on that. So >>a lot of migrations, a lot of cloud native re factoring going on in the applications sounds like >>yes. What we do is whatever legacy systems you have, we managed to ensure that we connect them all and to have a front line so that you can access information real time and that you can as a user and that you can really have a better experience whatever you do today, whatever company telco company you have, bank you use, I can guarantee you have you have, you speak to you just don't know about >>that. It's under the covers. I gotta ask you my final question. So you guys really doing some good business out here, what if people watching here trying to understand the dynamics of public sector market? What's your take, what's your what do you what would you say, that person? What's the big story happening in public sector? >>Well, to begin with, I'm not a public sector experts, I'm sure that there's a lot of public sector experts out there that can tell me, oh no, you missed this point. But what I have seen in these days that I have been here with the team is that the government needs to act fast in order to digitalized all these projects. So one of our partners yesterday was telling me that there is a mandate in in the army for example to move everything to cloud. How do you do it? They don't even know they're there, there are people that they don't they don't know how to do this. So our partners are building solutions to help them faster get into the cloud because they have to do it by the end of the year. And these are the key things that we are working on with partners to build solutions that can really can access for robust and they can >>escape. It's a very robust ecosystem. Yes, So amazon is an ecosystem you guys and you have an ecosystem. >>It's an ecosystem of ecosystems and that is what works right because Amazon has very good sellers for example, very good people that know the clients and they have a lot of experience but they are not specialized in what to do >>with the channel. These >>other partners have a peg a practice, they are experts and as I told you this is about crushing complexity. So it's making you need to understand the technology and the details behind it to make the best solution to the client. >>Corolla. Great to have you on very dynamic. Love, Love chatting with you Corolla Cazenove >>Cazenove >>Cazenove chief of channels that Pegasystems also known as peg a great to have you on, congratulations on your success. Ecosystems within an ecosystem crushing complexity. Mr que bringing you all the signal out there from the noise. I'm john Kerry. Thanks for watching. Mhm. Mhm.

>> Announcer: From around the globe, it's The Cube. With digital coverage of Ansible Fest 2020 brought to you by Red Hat. >> Hello, welcome back to The Cube's coverage of Ansible Fest 2020. This is The Cube. Cube Virtual. I'm your host, John Furrier with The Cube and Silicon Angle. Two great guests here. Two engineers and architects. Michael McCarthy who is a architect at Delivery Engineering, who's giving a talk with Gamesys and Jurgen Grech who's a technical architect for the platform engineering team at Gamesys. Gentlemen, welcome to The Cube, thanks for coming on. >> Hello. >> Nice to see you. >> Coming in from London, coming in from Malta, you guys are doing a lot of engineering. You're a customer of Ansible, want to get into some of the cool things you're doing obviously Kubernetes automation, platform engineering, this is what everyone's working on right now that's going to be positioned for the future. Before we get started though, tell me a little bit about what Gamesys does and you guys' role. Michael, we'll start with you. >> Sure, so we're a gaming operator, we run multiple bingo-led and casino-led gaming websites, some of them are B2B, some are B2C. I think we've been doing it now for probably 14 or 15 years at least. I've been there for 12 and a half of those. So we essentially run gaming websites where people come and play their favorite games. >> And what's your role there? What do you do? >> So I'm in the operation side of things, I used to be a developer for 12 or so years. We make sure that everything's kind of up and running, we keep the systems running. My team in particular focuses on the speed of delivery for developers so we're constantly looking at, how long has it taken to get things in front of the customers, can we make it faster, can we make it easier, can we put cool stuff out there quicker? So it's a kind of platformy type role that I do, and I enjoy it a lot, so it's good. >> Jurgen you're platform engineering that sounds deep. >> Yes. >> Which is your role? (laughing) >> Well, I've been with Gamesys also for eight and a half years now. I hold the position of technical architect at the moment within this platform engineering group which is mostly tasked with all things ops related. I am responsible for designing, implementing and validating strategies for continuous deployment, whilst always ensuring high availability on both production and pre-production systems. I'm also responsible for the design and implementation of automated dynamic environment to support the needs of the development teams and also collaborating with other architects, especially those on the development floors in order to optimize the deployment and operational strategies for both existing and new types of services alike. >> Awesome, thanks for sharing that. Good, good context. Well, I mean, you don't have to be a rocket scientist to figure out that when you talk about gaming it's uptime and a high availability is critical. You know, having people, being the login you got to have the right data strategies, it can't be down, right. (laughs) It's a critical app. People are not going to enjoy it if they're not at, so I can see how scale's huge. Can you guys talk about how Ansible fits in because automation's been the theme here, you guys have been having a journey with automation. What's been your automation solution with Ansible? >> I'll go Michael. >> Yeah sure. >> So, basically back in July 2014, we started to look at Ansible to replace those commonly used, day to day, best scripts, which our ops team use to execute and which could lead to some human error. That was our main original goal of using Ansible at the time. At the time was our infrastructure looked considerably different. Definitely much, much smaller than the current private cloud footprint. And as I said, as early adopters within the operations team it was imperative for us to automate as much as possible. Those repetitive tasks, which involved the execution of various scripts and were prone to human error. Since then however, aware Ansible usage, it worked quickly. Since 2014, we went through two major infrastructure overhauls and automation using Ansible was always at the heart of each of those overhauls. In fact, our latest private cloud which is based on OpenStack is completely built from the ground up using Ansible code. So this includes the provision and co-visual machines, our entire networking stacks, so switches, routers, firewall, the SDN which OpenStack is built up on, our internal DNS system. Basically all you need to have a fully functional private cloud. At Gamesys we also have some workloads running in two different public clouds. And even in this case, we are running against the build code to set up all the required infrastructure components. Again, since we were fairly new adopters at the time of this technology, without all of those Ansible code, using the original as the case, cover now this has worked considerably and with enhancements of litigated modules polished public cloud, we've made the code look much cleaner, readable and ad approved. >> You made some great progress. Michael, you want to weigh in on this? Any thoughts on? >> Yeah, I think it's kind of, I mean, adding to what Jurgen said I think it's kind of everywhere. So, you know, you mentioned, you mentioned high availability, you mentioned kind of uptime, you know, imagine the people that operate the infra, the people who get called out and they're working 24 seven, you know, a lot of the things that they would do, the kind of run books they would use to, you know, restart something they're Ansible as well. So it's the deployment scripts, it's the kind of scripts that keep things running, it's the stuff that spins up the environments as Jurgen said. I've noticed a lot on the development side where, you know, we look at continuous delivery, people are running their own build servers. A lot of the scripting that people do, which, you know you'd imagine, might be done with say Bash, I think I've seen a lot of Ansible being used there amongst developers, I guess. Yeah, it's got an easy learning curve. It's all of those modules. A lot of the scripting around CD I think is Ansible. It plays quite nicely, you know, URI module and file modules and yeah, I think it's kind of everywhere I think. It's quite pervasive. >> Once again I said, when to get something going. Good, it's awesome. >> Yeah. Automation get great success. So it's been a big theme of Ansible Fest 2020 automation collectors, et cetera. But the question I have for you guys as customers, is how large of an IT estate were you looking to automate and where was the most imperative places to automate first? >> The most imperative items we wanted to automate first as I said, were those operational day to day tasks handled by our network operations team. Our estate is massive. So we are running our infrastructure across five different data centers around the world, thousands of virtual machines, hundreds of network components. So we, we deal with customers all around the world. So our point of presence is spread out around the world as well. And you can't really handle such kind of size without some sort of automation. And Ansible fit the bill perfectly, in my opinion. >> And so your goal is to automate the entire landscape. Are you there now? Where are you on that progress? >> I would say we're at a very advanced stage in that process. Since 2014 we've made huge strides. All of our most recent private cloud setups as I said, have been built from the ground up using Ansible. And I would say a good 90% plus of our operational tasks are handled using some kind of Ansible playbook. >> Yeah, that makes total sense. Michael you brought up the, you start early in people's, it spreads. Those are my words, but you were saying that. What kind of systems do people tend to start with at Ansible? And what's, where's that first sticky moment where it lands and expands and which teams jump on it first? Is it the developers? Is it more the IT? Take us through some of the how this all gets started and how it spreads. >> I think in the, the first time I remember using it was probably I think 2014, 2015. And it was what Jurgen mentioned. I was on the Dev side and we wanted a way to have consistency in how we deployed. We wanted to be able to deploy the exact same way, you know into earlier environments, into Dev environments as we did in staging and production. And, you know, someone kind of found Ansible and then someone in operations kind of saw it and they were happy with it and they felt comfortable using the, kind of getting up to speed. And I think it was hard to know where it really started first, but you sort of looked around and every team, every team kind of had it. So, you know, who actually started I'm not sure, but it's all over the place. >> He did. (laughs) >> Yeah. I think, you know, where people start with it first it probably depends if you're on the ops or the dev side, I think on the dev side you know, we're encouraging people to own their own deployment playbooks you know, you're responsible for the deployment of your system to production. Obviously you've got the network operations the not group sort of doing it for you, but you know, your first exposure is probably going to be writing a playbook to deploy your app or maybe it's around some build tooling, spinning up your own build environment but that's something you'll be doing. I know with Ansible and it's especially around this point of stuff because everything's in git, there's that collaboration which I never saw, obviously I saw people chatting over kind of slack in teams but in terms of being able to sort of raise PR's having developers raise PR's, having operations comment on them the same the other way around, that's been a massive change which I think has come from using Ansible. >> The collaboration piece is huge. And I think it's one of those things early on out of all the Ansible friends that I know that use it and customers and in the company product was just good. It just word of mouth, spreads it around and be like, this is workable, saves a lot of time and it's a pain point remover. Also enables some things to happen with now automation, but now it's mature. Right? So Jurgen I got to ask you in the maturation of all this automation you're talking about scale, you mentioned it. OpenStack, you guys got the private clouds, people use it for public cloud, I now see Red Hat has a angle on that. But when you think about the current modern state of the art today, you can't go anywhere without talking about Kubernetes. >> Yup. >> Kubernetes has really emerged on the scene to manage these clusters but yet it's just getting started. You have a lot of experience with Ansible and Kubernetes. Can you share your journey with Kubernetes and Ansible, and what's your reaction to that? >> Yes, so back in June 2016 Gamesys was developing a new gaming platform which was stood on now Kubernetes. Kubernetes at the time was fairly new to many at an enterprise level with only a handful of production systems online. So we were tasked to assess how we're going to bring Kubernetes into production. So we first, we identified the requirements to set up a production grade cluster and given our experience with Ansible, we embarked on a journey to automate the installation process. Again using Ansible this would ensure that all the required installation and configuration parameters as Michael mentioned, we are committing it, the code is shared with all the respective development teams for ease of collaboration and feedback. And we decided to logically divide our code into two. And we said, we're going to have an installation code in order to provide Kubernetes as a service. So this basically installs Docker onto every worker node. It installs cube lit, all the master playing components of Kubernetes installs core DNS, the container storage interface, and they full blown and cluster monitoring stack. Then we also had our configuration code which basically sets up name spaces, it labels nodes for specific uses at certain security policies according to the cluster use case and creates all the required role based access configurations. This need to split the code in two came about really with the growing adoption of Kubernetes because at the inception stage we only had the one team which had a requirement to use Kubernetes. However, with various teams getting on board each required their own flavor with their particular unique configurations. This is of course well managed quite easily to reduce of different Ansible inventories. And it's all integrated now within Ansible Tower with different unique drop templates to install and configure the Kubernetes clusters. We started as I said with just one pre-production or staging cluster in 2010 16. Today we manage 42 different Kubernetes clusters including six which are in production. >> What problems >> So, as I mentioned earlier >> I got to ask you 'cause Kubernetes certainly when it came out, I mean, that was a big fan boy of that. I was promoting Kubernetes from the beginning. I saw it as a really great opportunity to bring things together with containers. It turns out that developers love it for that reason. What, so getting your hands on is great, but as you moved it in to practice, what problems did it solve for you? >> So using Ansible, definitely solve the problem of ensuring that all of our 42 clusters across all the different data centers are running the same configuration. So they're running the same version. They're running the same security policies. They're running the same name space, according to the type. Each team has a similar deployment token. And it's very, very convenient to roll out changes and upgrades especially when all of our code has been integrated with Ansible Tower through a simple user interface click. >> How's Ansible Tower working for you? Is that going well? Ansible Tower? >> Eh, I would say so, yes. Most of our code now is integrated with Ansible Tower. It's allowed us to also share some of the tasks with a wider group of people. Within Peg we are the guardians of the production environments really. However, we share the responsibility of staging environments with the respective development teams, who primarily those environments. So as such, through the use of Ansible Tower we've managed to also securely and consistently share the same way how they can install and upgrade these clusters themselves without our involvement. >> Thank you. Michael you're giving, oh sorry go ahead. Go ahead Jurgen. >> Sorry is no no. >> Michael, you're giving a presentation breakout session at Ansible Fest. Can you give us a sneak peek >> Yup. >> Of what you're going to talk about? >> Yeah sure. So we, I said we've been using Tower for a long time. We've been using it since 2015 I think. Think we've probably made some mistakes along the way, I guess, or we've learned a lot of stuff from how we started then to now. So what it does is it follows this sort of timeline of how we started, why there was this big move to making an effort to put all of our deployment playbooks in Ansible. Why you would go to Tower over and above Ansible itself. It talks about our early interactions with quite an old version of Tower and now version two, things that we struggled with, then we saw version three came out there was loads and loads of really good stuff in version three. And it's really about kind of how we've used the new features, how it's worked out for us. It's kind of about what Gamesys have done with Tower but I think it's probably applicable to everyone and anyone that uses Tower I think will, they'll probably come across the same things, how do I scale it for multiple teams? How do I give teams the ownership to kind of own their own playbooks? How do I automate Tower itself? It talks about that. Sort of check pointing every few years about where we'd got to and what was going well and what was going less well. So, and a bit of a look forward to, what's going to come next with Tower. So we're constantly keeping up to date and we've got kind of roadmap for where we want to go. >> What's interesting about you guys is you think about look at OpenStack and then how Cloud came on the scene and Private Cloud has emerged with hybrid and obviously public, you guys are right on the wave of all this large scale stuff and your gaming app really kind of highlights that. And you've been through the paces with Ansible. So I guess my question, and you've got a lot of scar tissue and you got success to show for it too, a lot of great stuff. What advice would you give people who are now getting on the new wave, the bigger wave that's coming which is more users, more scale, more features more automation, microservices are coming around the corner. As long as I get more scale. What advice would you give someone who's coming on board with Ansible for the first time? >> I think there was, you were talking before about Kubernetes and it was so where we were, I think we'd got into containers kind of relatively early. And we were deploying Docker and we had some pretty big, kind of scary playbooks and they managed low balances and deployed Docker containers. And it was always interesting thinking how is this all going to change when Kubernetes comes along? And I think that's been really smooth. I think there's a really nice Ansible module that's just called gates. And I think it's really simple actually, it simplified a lot of the playbooks. And I think that the technologies can coexist quite happily. I don't think you have to feel like Kubernetes is going to change all of the investment you've made into Ansible. Even if you go down the route of Kubernetes operators, you can write them in Ansible. So I still think it's a very relevant tool even with Kubernetes being so kind of prevalent. >> Jurgen what's your thoughts on folks getting in now, who want to jump in and take advantage of the automation, all the cool stuff with Ansible? What advice would you give them? >> Yes, I would definitely recommend to look at their infrastructure set ups as they would look at their code. So break it down into small manageable components, start small, build your roles, make sure to build your roles properly for each of that small component. And then definitely look at Ansible Tower as a way to visualize and control the execution of your code. Make sure you're running it with the proper security policies with the proper credentials and all, they're not, of course so break anything which is at the production level. >> Michael McCarthy, Jurgen Grech two great engineers at Gamesys. Congratulations on your success and love to unpack the infrastructure and the scale you have and certainly automation, great success path. And it's going to get easier. I mean, that's what everyone's saying, it's going to get easier. Thanks for coming on. I appreciate the conversation. Thank you very much. >> Thank you, welcome >> Thank you, take care. Bye bye. >> I'm John Furrier with The Cube here in Palo Alto California. We're virtual, The Cube virtual for Ansible Fest 2020 virtual. Thank you for watching. (upbeat music)

>> from our studios in the heart of Silicon Valley, Palo Alto, California It is a cute conversation. >> Well, the Special Cube conversation. We are here in Palo Alto, California, Cube studios here. Tony, Gino, Domenico, Who's the senior security strategist and research at for Net and four to guard labs live from Las Vegas. Where Black Hat and then Def Con security activities happening, Tony, also known as Tony G. Tony G. Welcome to this cube conversation. >> Hey, Thanks, John. Thanks for having me. >> So a lot of action happening in Vegas. We just live there all the time with events. You're there on the ground. You guys have seen all the action there. You guys are just published. Your quarterly threat report got a copy of it right here with the threat index on it. Talk about the quarterly global threats report. Because the backdrop that we're living in today, also a year at the conference and the cutting edge is security is impacting businesses that at such a level, we must have shell shock from all the breaches and threats they're going on. Every day you hear another story, another story, another hack, more breaches. It said all time high. >> Yeah, you know, I think a lot of people start to get numb to the whole thing. You know, it's almost like they're kind of throwing your hands up and say, Oh, well, I just kind of give up. I don't know what else to do, but I mean, obviously, there are a lot of different things that you can do to be able to make sure that you secure your cybersecurity program so at least you minimize the risk of these particular routes is happening. But with that said with the Threat Landscape report, what we typically dio is we start out with his overall threat index, and we started this last year. If we fast forward to where we are in this actual cue to report, it's been one year now, and the bad news is that the threats are continuing to increase their getting more sophisticated. The evasion techniques are getting more advanced, and we've seen an uptick of about 4% and threat volume over the year before. Now the silver lining is I think we expected the threat volume to be much higher. So I think you know, though it is continuing to increase. I think the good news is it's probably not increasing as fast as we thought it was going to. >> Well, you know, it's always You have to know what you have to look for. Blood. People talk about what you can't see, and there's a lot of a blind spot that's become a data problem. I just want to let people know that. Confined the report, go to Ford Nets, ah website. There's a block there for the details, all the threat index. But the notable point is is only up 4% from the position year of a year that the attempts are more sophisticated. Guys gotta ask you, Is there stuff that we're not seeing in there? Is there blind spots? What's the net net of the current situation? Because observe ability is a hot topic and cloud computing, which essentially monitoring two point. Oh, but you gotta be able to see everything. Are we seeing everything? What's what's out there? >> Well, I mean, I think us as Ford, a guard on Darcy, have cyber threat in challenges. I think we're seeing a good amount, but when you talk about visibility, if you go back down into the organizations. I think that's where there's There's definitely a gap there because a lot of the conversations that I have with organizations is they don't necessarily have all the visibility they need from cloud all the way down to the end point. So there are some times that you're not gonna be able to catch certain things now. With that said, if we go back to the report at the end of the day, the adversaries have some challenges to be able to break into an organization. And, of course, the obvious one is they have to be able to circumvent our security controls. And I think as a security community, we've gotten a lot better of being able to identify when the threat is coming into an organization. Now, on the flip side, Oh, if you refer back to the minor Attack knowledge base, you'll see a specific tactic category called defense evasions. There's about 60 plus techniques, evasion techniques the adversary has at their disposal, at least that we know may there may be others, but so they do have a lot of opportunity, a lot of different techniques to be able to leverage with that, said There's one technique. It's, ah, disabling security tools that we started seeing a bit of an increase in this last cue to threat landscape report. So a lot of different types of threats and mile where have the capability to be ableto one look at the different processes that may be running on a work station, identifying which one of those processes happen to be security tools and then disabling them whether they're no, maybe they might just be able to turn the no, the actual service off. Or maybe there's something in the registry that they can tweak. That'll disable the actual security control. Um, maybe they'll actually suppress the alerts whatever. They conduce you to make sure that that security control doesn't prevent them from doing that malicious activity. Now, with that said, on the flip side, you know, from an organization for perspective, you want to make sure that you're able to identify when someone's turning on and turning off those security control to any type of alert that might be coming out of that control also. And this is a big one because a lot of organizations and this certainly do this minimize who has the ability to turn those particular security controls on and off. In the worst cases, you don't wanna have all of your employees uh, the you don't want to give them the ability to be able to turn those controls on and off. You're never gonna be ableto baseline. You're never gonna be able to identify a, you know, anomalous activity in the environment, and you're basically gonna lose your visibility. >> I mean, this increase in male wearing exploit activity you guys were pointing out clearly challenge the other thing that the report kind of She's out. I want to get your opinion on this. Is that the The upping? The ante on the evasion tactics has been very big trend. The adversaries are out there. They're upping the ante. You guys, we're upping the guarantees. This game you continue this flight will continues. Talk about this. This feature of upping the ante on evasion tactics. >> Yes. So that's what I was that I was kind of ah, referring to before with all the different types of evasion techniques. But what I will say is most of the all the threats these days all have some type of evasion capabilities. A great example of this is every quarter. If you didn't know. We look at different types of actors and different types of threats, and we find one that's interesting for us to dig into and where create was called an actual playbook, where we want to be able to dissect that particular threat or those threat actor methodologies and be able to determine what other tactics and corresponding techniques, which sometimes of course, includes evasion techniques. Now, the one that we focused on for this quarter was called His Ego's Was Ego, says a specific threat that is an information stealer. So it's gathering information, really based on the mission goals off, whatever that particular campaign is, and it's been around for a while. I'm going all the way back to 2011. Now you might be asking yourself, Why did we actually choose this? Well, there's a couple different reasons. One happens to be the fact that we've seen an uptick in this activity. Usually when we see that it's something we want to dive into a little bit more. Number two. Though this is a tactic of the of the adversary, what they'll do is they'll have their threat there for a little while, and then local doorman. They'll stop using that particular malware. That's no specific sort of threat. They'll let the dust settle that things die down. Organizations will let their guard down a little bit on that specific threat. Security organizations Ah, vendors might actually do the same. Let that digital dust kind of settle, and then they'll come back. Bigger, faster, stronger. And that's exactly what Z ghosted is. Ah, we looked at a specific campaign in this new mall where the new and improved Mauer, where is they're adding in other capabilities for not just being able to siphon information from your machine, but they're also now can capture video from your webcam. Also, the evasion techniques since Iran that particular subject, what they're also able to do is they're looking at their application logs. Your system logs your security logs, the leading them making a lot more difficult from a forensic perspective. Bill, go back and figure out what happened, what that actual malware was doing on the machine. Another interesting one is Ah, there. We're looking at a specific J peg file, so they're looking for that hash. And if the hash was there the axle? Um, our wouldn't run. We didn't know what that was. So we researched a little bit more on What we found out was that J Peg file happened to be a desktop sort of picture for one of the sandboxes. So it knew if that particular J pick was present, it wasn't going to run because it knew it was being analyzed in a sandbox. So that was a second interesting thing. The 3rd 1 that really leaned us towards digging into this is a lot of the actual security community attribute this particular threat back to cyber criminals that are located in China. The specific campaign we were focused on was on a government agency, also in China, So that was kind of interesting. So you're continuing to see these. These mile wears of maybe sort of go dormant for a little bit, but they always seem to come back bigger, faster, stronger. >> And that's by design. This is that long, whole long view that these adversaries we're taking in there as he organized this economy's behind what they're doing. They're targeting this, not just hit and run. It's get in, have a campaign. This long game is very much active. Howto enterprises. Get on, get on top of this. I mean, is it Ah, is it Ah, people process Issue is it's, um, tech from four to guard labs or what? What's what's for the Nets view on this? Because, I mean, I can see that happening all the time. It has >> happened. Yeah, it's It's really it's a combination of everything on this combination. You kind of hit like some of it, its people, its processes and technology. Of course, we have a people shortage of skilled resource is, but that's a key part of it. You always need to have those skills. Resource is also making sure you have the right process. Is how you actually monitoring things. I know. Ah, you know, a lot of folks may not actually be monitoring all the things that they need to be monitoring from, Ah, what is really happening out there on the internet today? So making sure you have clear visibility into your environment and you can understand and maybe getting point in time what your situational awareness is. You you, for my technology perspective, you start to see and this is kind of a trend. We're starting the leverage artificial intelligence, automation. The threats are coming, and it's such a high volume. Once they hit the the environment, instead of taking hours for your incident response to be about, at least you know not necessarily mitigate, but isolate or contain the breach. It takes a while. So if you start to leverage some artificial intelligence and automatic response with the security controls are working together. That's a big that's a big part of it. >> Awesome. Thanks for coming. This is a huge problem. Think no one can let their guard down these days? Certainly with service, they're expanding. We're gonna get to that talk track in the second. I want to get quickly. Get your thoughts on ransom, where this continues to be, a drum that keeps on beating. From a tax standpoint, it's almost as if when when the attackers need money, they just get the same ransomware target again. You know, they get, they pay in. Bitcoin. This is This has been kind of a really lucrative but persistent problem with Ransomware. This what? Where what's going on with Ransomware? What's this state of the report and what's the state of the industry right now in solving that? >> Yeah. You know, we looked into this a little bit in last quarter and actually a few quarters, and this is a continuous sort of trend ransom, where typically is where you know, it's on the cyber crime ecosystem, and a lot of times the actual threat itself is being delivered through some type of ah, phishing email where you need a user to be able to click a langur clicking attachment is usually kind of a pray and spray thing. But what we're seeing is more of ah, no sort of ah, you know, more of a targeted approach. What they'll do is to look for do some reconnaissance on organizations that may not have the security posture that they really need. Tohave, it's not as mature, and they know that they might be able to get that particular ransomware payload in there undetected. So they do a little reconnaissance there, And some of the trend here that we're actually seeing is there looking at externally RTP sessions. There's a lot of RTP sessions, the remote desktop protocol sessions that organizations have externally so they can enter into their environment. But these RTP sessions are basically not a secure as they need to be either week username and passwords or they are vulnerable and haven't actually been passed. They're taking advantage of those they're entering and there and then once they have that initial access into the network, they spread their payload all throughout the environment and hold all those the those devices hostage for a specific ransom. Now, if you don't have the, you know, particular backup strategy to be able to get that ransom we're out of there and get your your information back on those machines again. Sometimes you actually may be forced to pay that ransom. Not that I'm recommending that you sort of do so, but you see, or organizations are decided to go ahead and pay that ransom. And the more they do that, the more the adversary is gonna say, Hey, I'm coming back, and I know I'm gonna be able to get more and more. >> Yeah, because they don't usually fix the problem or they come back in and it's like a bank. Open bank blank check for them. They come in and keep on hitting >> Yeah >> same target over and over again. We've seen that at hospitals. We've seen it kind of the the more anemic I t department where they don't have the full guard capabilities there. >> Yeah, and I would have gone was really becoming a big issue, you know? And I'll, uh, ask you a question here, John. I mean, what what does Microsoft s A N D. H s have in common for this last quarter? >> Um, Robin Hood? >> Yeah. That attacks a good guess. Way have in common is the fact that each one of them urged the public to patch a new vulnerability that was just released on the RTP sessions called Blue Keep. And the reason why they was so hyped about this, making sure that people get out there and patch because it was were mobile. You didn't really need tohave a user click a link or click and attachment. You know, basically, when you would actually exploit that vulnerability, it could spread like wildfire. And that's what were mobile is a great example of that is with wannacry. A couple years ago, it spread so quickly, so everybody was really focused on making sure that vulnerability actually gets patched. Adding onto that we did a little bit of research on our own and ransom Internet scans, and there's about 800,000 different devices that are vulnerable to that particular ah, new vulnerability that was announced. And, you know, I still think a lot of people haven't actually patched all of that, and that's a real big concern, especially because of the trend that we just talked about Ransomware payload. The threat actors are looking at are Rdp as the initial access into the environment. >> So on blue Keep. That's the one you were talking about, right? So what is the status of that? You said There's a lot of vulnerable is out. There are people patching it, is it Is it being moving down, the down the path in terms of our people on it? What's your take on that? What's the assessment? >> Yeah, so I think some people are starting to patch, but shoot, you know, the scans that we do, there's still a lot of unpacked systems out there, and I would also say we're not seeing what's inside the network. There may be other RTP sessions in the environment inside of an organization's environment, which really means Now, if Ransomware happens to get in there that has that capability than to be able to spread like the of some RTP vulnerability that's gonna be even a lot more difficult to be able to stop that once it's inside a network. I mean, some of the recommendations, obviously, for this one is you want to be able to patch your RTP sessions, you know, for one. Also, if you want to be able to enable network authentication, that's really gonna help us. Well, now I would also say, You know, maybe you want a hard in your user name and passwords, but if you can't do some of this stuff, at least put some mitigating controls in place. Maybe you can isolate some of those particular systems, limit the amount of AH access organizations have or their employees have to that, or maybe even just totally isolated. If it's possible, internal network segmentation is a big part of making sure you can. You're able to mitigate some of these put potential risks, or at least minimize the damage that they may cause. >> Tony G. I want to get your thoughts on your opinion and analysis expert opinion on um, the attack surface area with digital and then ultimately, what companies can do for Let's let's start with the surface area. What's your analysis there? Ah, lot of companies are recognizing. I'll see with Coyote and other digital devices. The surface area is just everywhere, right? So I got on the perimeter days. That's kind of well known. It's out there. What's the current digital surface area threats look like? What's your opinion? >> Sure, Yeah, it's Ah, now it's funny. These days, I say no, Jenna tell you everything that seems to be made as an I P address on it, which means it's actually able to access the Internet. And if they can access the Internet, the bad guys can probably reach out and touch it. And that's really the crux of the problem of these days. So anything that is being created is out on the Internet. And, yeah, like, we all know there's really not a really rigid security process to make sure that that particular device as secure is that secure as it actually needs to be Now. We talked earlier on about You know, I ot as relates to maybe home routers and how you need to be ableto hard in that because you were seeing a lot of io teapot nets that air taking over those home routers and creating these super large I ot botnets on the other side of it. You know, we've seen ah lot of skate of systems now that traditionally were in air gapped environments. Now they're being brought into the traditional network. They're being connected there. So there's an issue there, but one of the ones we haven't actually talked a lot about and we see you're starting to see the adversaries focus on these little bit more as devices in smart homes and smart buildings in this queue to threat landscape report. There was a vulnerability in one of these you motion business management systems. And, you know, we looked at all the different exploits out there, and the adversaries were actually looking at targeting that specific exploit on that. That's smart management building service device. We had about 1% of all of our exploit, uh, hits on that device. Now that might not seem like a lot, but in the grand scheme of things, when we're collecting billions and billions of events, it's a fairly substantial amount. What, now that we're Lee starts a kind of bring a whole another thought process into as a security professional as someone responds double for securing my cyber assets? What if I include in my cyber assets now widen include all the business management systems that my employees, Aaron, for my overall business. Now that that actually might be connected to my internal network, where all of my other cyber assets are. Maybe it actually should be. Maybe should be part of your vulnerability mentioned audibly patch management process. But what about all the devices in your smart home? Now? You know, all these different things are available, and you know what the trend is, John, right? I mean, the actual trend is to work from home. So you have a lot of your remote workers have, ah, great access into the environment. Now there's a great conduit for the obvious areas to be ableto break into some of those smart home devices and maybe that figure out from there there on the employees machine. And that kind of gets him into, you know, the other environment. So I would say, Start looking at maybe you don't wanna have those home devices as part of, ah, what you're responsible for protecting, but you definitely want to make sure your remote users have a hardened access into the environment. They're separated from all of those other smart, smart home devices and educate your employees on that and the user awareness training programs. Talk to them about what's happening out there, how the adversaries air starting to compromise, or at least focus on some of them smart devices in their home environment. >> These entry points are you point out, are just so pervasive. You have work at home totally right. That's a great trend that a lot of companies going to. And this is virtual first common, a world. We build this new new generation of workers. They wanna work anywhere. So no, you gotta think about all that. Those devices that your son or your daughter brought home your husband. Your wife installed a new light bulb with an I peed connection to it fully threaded processor. >> I know it. Gosh, this kind of concern me, it's safer. And what's hot these days is the webcam, right? Let's say you have an animal and you happen to go away. You always want to know what your animals doing, right? So you have these Webcams here. I bet you someone might be placing a webcam that might be near where they actually sit down and work on their computer. Someone compromises that webcam you may be. They can see some of the year's name and password that you're using a log in. Maybe they can see some information that might be sensitive on your computer. You know, it's the The options are endless here. >> Tony G. I want to get your thoughts on how companies protect themselves, because this is the real threat. A ni O t. Doesn't help either. Industrial I ot to just Internet of things, whether it's humans working at home, too, you know, sensors and light bulbs inside other factory floors or whatever means everywhere. Now the surface area is anything with a knife he address in power and connectivity. How do companies protect themselves? What's the playbook? What's coming out of Red hat? What's coming out of Fort Annette? What are you advising? What's the playbook? >> Yeah, you know I am. You know, when I get asked this question a lot, I really I sound like a broken record. Sometimes I try to find so many different ways to spin it. You know, maybe I could actually kind of say it like this, and it's always means the same thing. Work on the fundamentals and John you mentioned earlier from the very beginning. Visibility, visibility, visibility. If you can't understand all the assets that you're protecting within your environment, it's game over. From the beginning, I don't care what other whiz bang product you bring into the environment. If you're not aware of what you're actually protecting, there's just no way that you're gonna be able to understand what threats are happening out your network at a higher level. It's all about situational awareness. I want to make sure if I'm if I'm a C so I want my security operations team to have situational awareness at any given moment, all over the environment, right? So that's one thing. No grabbing that overall sort of visibility. And then once you can understand where all your assets are, what type of information's on those assets, you get a good idea of what your vulnerabilities are. You start monitoring that stuff. You can also start understanding some of different types of jabs. I know it's challenging because you've got everything in the cloud all the way down to the other end point. All these mobile devices. It's not easy, but I think if you focus on that a little bit more, it's gonna go a longer way. And I also mentioned we as humans. When something happens into the environment, we can only act so fast. And I kind of alluded to this earlier on in this interview where we need to make sure that we're leveraging automation, artificial in intelligence to help us be able to determine when threats happened. You know, it's actually be in the environment being able to determine some anomalous activity and taking action. It may not be able to re mediate, but at least it can take some initial action. The security controls can talk to each other, isolate the particular threat and let you fight to the attack, give you more time to figure out what's going on. If you can reduce the amount of time it takes you to identify the threat and isolate it, the better chances that you're gonna have to be able to minimize the overall impact of that particular Reno. >> Tony, just you jogging up a lot of memories from interviews I've had in the past. I've interviewed the four star generals, had an essay, had a cyber command. You get >> a lot of >> military kind of thinkers behind the security practice because there is a keeping eyes on the enemy on the target on the adversary kind of dialogue going on. They all talk about automation and augmenting the human piece of it, which is making sure that you have as much realty. I'm information as possible so you can keep your eyes on the targets and understand, to your point contextual awareness. This seems to be the biggest problem that Caesar's heir focused on. How to eliminate the tasks that take the eyes off the targets and keep the situational winners on on point. Your thoughts on that? >> Yeah, I have to. You know what, son I used to be? Oh, and I still do. And now I do a lot of presentations about situational awareness and being ableto build your you know, your security operations center to get that visibility. And, you know, I always start off with the question of you know, when your C so walks in and says, Hey, I saw something in the news about a specific threat. How are we able to deal with that? 95% of the responses are Well, I have to kind of go back and kind of like, you don't have to actually come dig in and, you know, see, and it takes them a while for the audio. >> So there's a classic. So let me get back to your boss. What? Patch patch? That, um Tony. Chief, Thank you so much for the insight. Great Congressional. The Holy Report. Keep up the good work. Um, quick, Quick story on black hat. What's the vibe in Vegas? Def con is right around the corner after it. Um, you seeing the security industry become much more broader? See, as the industry service area becomes from technical to business impact, you starting to see that the industry change Amazon Web service has had an event cloud security called reinforce. You starting to see a much broader scope to the industry? What's the big news coming out of black at? >> Yeah, you know, it's it's a lot of the same thing that actually kind of changes. There's just so many different vendors that are coming in with different types of security solutions, and that's awesome. That is really good with that, said, though, you know, we talked about the security shortage that we don't have a lot of security professionals with the right skill sets. What ends up happening is you know, these folks that may not have that particular skill, you know, needed. They're being placed in these higher level of security positions, and they're coming to these events and they're overwhelmed because they're all they'll have a saw slight. It's all over a similar message, but slightly different. So how did they determine which one is actually better than the others? So it's, um, I would say from that side, it gets to be a little bit kind of challenging, but at the same time, No, I mean, we continued to advance. I mean, from the, uh, no, from the actual technical controls, solutions perspective, you know, You know, we talked about it. They're going, we're getting better with automation, doing the things that the humans used to do, automating that a little bit more, letting technology do some of that mundane, everyday kind of grind activities that we would as humans would do it, take us a little bit longer. Push that off. Let the actual technology controls deal with that so that you can focus like you had mentioned before on those higher level you know, issues and also the overall sort of strategy on either howto actually not allow the officer to come in or haven't determined once they're in and how quickly will be able to get them out. >> You know, we talked. We have a panel of seashells that we talk to, and we were running a you know, surveys through them through the Cube insights Most see says, we talk Thio after they won't want to talk off the record. I don't want anyone know they work for. They all talked him. They say, Look, I'm bombarded with more and more security solutions. I'm actually trying to reduce the number of suppliers and increase the number of partners, and this is nuanced point. But to your what you're getting at is a tsunami of new things, new threats, new solutions that could be either features or platforms or tools, whatever. But most si SOS wanna build an engineering team. They wanna have full stack developers on site. They wanna have compliance team's investigative teams, situational awareness teams. And they want a partner with with suppliers where they went partners, not just suppliers. So reduce the number suppliers, increase the partners. What's your take on that year? A big partner. A lot of the biggest companies you >> get in that state spring. Yeah. I mean, that's that's actually really our whole strategy. Overall strategy for Ford. Annette is, and that's why we came up with this security fabric. We know that skills are really not as not as prevalent as that they actually need to be. And of course, you know there's not endless amounts of money as well, right? And you want to be able to get these particular security controls to talk to each other, and this is why we built this security fabric. We want to make sure that the controls that we're actually gonna build him, and we have quite a few different types of, you know, security controls that work together to give you the visibility that you're really looking for, and then years Ah, you know, trusted partner that you can actually kind of come to And we can work with you on one identifying the different types of ways the adversaries air moving into the environment and ensuring that we have security controls in place to be able to thwart the threat. Actor playbook. Making sure that we have a defensive playbook that aligns with those actual ttp is in the offensive playbook, and we can actually either detect or ultimately protect against that malicious activity. >> Tony G. Thanks for sharing your insights here on the cube conversation. We'll have to come back to you on some of these follow on conversations. Love to get your thoughts on Observe ability. Visibility on. Get into this. What kind of platforms are needed to go this next generation with cloud security and surface area being so massive? So thanks for spending the time. Appreciate it. >> Thanks a lot, Right. We only have >> a great time in Vegas. This is Cube conversation. I'm John for here in Palo Alto. Tony G with Fortinet in Las Vegas. Thanks for watching

>> Over and welcome to this special cube conversation here in the Palo Alto Studios of Cube. Part of our People. First project with Mayfield Fund and Co creation with Cuban John Very your host. Very special guest. Judy Estrin. She's the CEO of J Labs and author of the book Closing the Innovation Gap. She's also well known for being an Internet entrepreneur. Pioneer worked on the initial TCP IP protocol with Vin Cerf from When the A Stanford Great History Computer Science. You have computer systems in your blood, and now you're mentoring a lot of companies. Author you a lot of work, and you're lending your voice to some cutting edge issues here in Silicon Valley and around the world. Thanks for joining me today for the conversation. >> Thank you. It's fun to be here, >> So I love the fact that you're here. You're a celebrity in the commute computer industry circles. You were there at the beginning, when the computer systems or the Internet were being connected as they built out of stone of the whole system's revolution in the eighties, and the rest is history. Now we have cloud computing, and now we're seeing a whole nother level step function of scale. And so you've kind of seen it all. You've seen all all the waves. Actually, something like make is they have seen some of the ways, but you've seen all of them. The most compelling thing I think that's happening now is the convergence of social science and computer science. Kind of our motto. Silicon Angle. You recently wrote to Post on Medium that that has been kind of trending and going viral. I want to get your perspective on that. And they're They're interesting because they they bring a little bit of computer science called the authoritative Authority Terrian Technology Reclaiming Control far too attention, part one. We go into great detail to lay out some big picture computer industry discussions. What's it all about? What's what's the What's the idea behind these stories? >> So let me back up a little bit in that, a Sze Yu said. And we can go into this if you want. I was very involved in a lot of thie, ah, innovation that happened in the Village Valley in terms of microprocessors, the Internet, networking, everything that laid the foundation for a lot of the things we see today incredible opportunities for my career for problems we solved over the last ten years. Ten, twelve years. Um, I began to see a shift and a shift in the culture and a shift in the way technology was impacting us. And it's not all good or bad. It's that it felt like we were out of balance and that we were becoming shorter and shorter, term focused and actually my book in two thousand eight closing the innovation gap. The main message there is let's not forget about the seeds you plant that all of this comes from because we're reaping the benefit of those seeds. We're not planning new seats and that we were becoming in the Valley in the nation the way we thought about things more and more short term focused and technology was causing some of that and benefitting and not been and at a disadvantage because of that. So that started with my book in two thousand eight and then in twenty fourteen, I think it was I did a Ted talk a Ted X talk called Balancing our Digital Diets, and I was even Mohr concerned that we were out of whack in terms of the consequences of innovation, and I drew an analogy to our food's systems, where so much innovation and creating cheap calories and energy and things like high fructose corn syrup that it took years to realize that, Oh, there's some negative consequences of that innovation. And so that was kind of a warning that, um, we weren't thinking enough about the consequences of at that point. Social media. That was before fake news, and I talked about tweets and how truth that lies went faster than truth, not knowing how bad that situation was going to be and then leading up to the election and after the election. We all know and have all learned now about the impacts of these technologies on our democracy, and I believe on our society and humanity. And I don't think it's just about our election system. I think it's about our psyches and how the technology's air impacting the way we think our fear and anxiety level of our kids and us is adults. So I been talking to people about it and advising, and I finally decided as, uh, I was collaborating with people that I felt that a lot of the awareness was in pockets that we talked about data privacy or we talked about addiction. But these air things were all interrelated, and so I wanted to one ad. My voices is technologists because I think a lot of the people who are writing the building, the awareness and talking about it if you are in government or a journalist's or even a social scientist people, it's really easy to say, Yeah, you say that, but you don't understand. It's more complicated than that. You don't understand the technology. So one, I do understand that technology. So I felt adding my voice as a technologist. But I'm also, uh, just increasingly concerned about what we do about it and that we take a more holistic view. So that's what, what what the pieces are about. And the reason I broke it into two pieces is because they're too long for most people, even the way they are. But the first is to build awareness of the problems which we can dig into it a high level if you want. And then the second is to throw out ideas as we move towards discussing solutions. So let me take a breath because you were goingto jump in, and then I can. >> No, it's just because you're connecting the foundational of technology foundation technology, identifying impact, looking at pockets of awareness and then looking at how it's all kind of coming together when you talk like that The first time I saw O subsystem interrupt us connection so someone could get like a operating system. And I think the society that you're pointing out in the article, the first one intention was there only to relate. And I think that's the key part. I think that's interesting because we run into people all the time when we do our cue broadcasts that have awareness here and don't know what's going on this. So this context that's highly cohesive. But there's no connection, right? So the decoupled right but highly cohesive, That's kind of systems. Architecture concept. So how do we create a robust technology's society system where technology and I think that's a threat that we're seeing this? What I cleaned out of the articles was your kind of raising the flag a little bit to the notion of big picture right system, kind of a foundational, but let's look at consequences and inter relationships, and how can we kind of orchestrate and figure out solutions? So what was the reaction to expand on that concept? Because this is where I was. It was provocative to me, >> right? So I think there are two thought trains that I just went down. One is that one of the problems we have that has been created by technology and technology is suffering from again. It's causing both cause and effect is not enough seats, system thinking and so one issue, which is not just this is not just about social media and not just about a I, but over the last twenty years we've increasingly trained, I think, are, Ah, engineers and computer scientists in Mohr transactional thinking. And as we move quicker and quicker to solve problems, we are not training our leaders or training our technologist to think in terms of systems. And so what I mean by systems is two things that you can break, that any problems have pieces. But those pieces air inter connected. We are interconnected, and that you, if you don't keep those things in mind, then you will not design things in a way, I believe that have the longevity and make the right type decisions. The second is the law of consequences when you have a system, if you do something here, it's going to impact something here. And so that whole notion of taking was thinking through consequences. I'm afraid that we're training people as we are focusing on being more and more agile, moving more and more quickly that it's in technology and in society that we're losing some of that system, thinking >> that they kind of think that's the trade off is always around. Whenever he had systems conversations in the past, but my old systems had on trade offs, we have overhead, so we have more memory. How do we handle things? So this is kind of That's just what happens. You tell about consequence, but >> we don't have all those we I'm older than you. But we started at a time when that we were limited. We were limited by memory. We were limited by processing. We were limited by band with and a different times. As thie industry emerged, the constraints were in different areas. Today, you don't have any of those constraints. And so, if you don't have any of those constraints. You don't get trained in thinking about trade offs and thinking about consequences. So when when we come into just what drove me to write, this one set of things are foundational issues and what I mean by foundational it's it's our relationship to technology. And the fact of the matter is, as a society, um, we put technology on a pedestal, and we have, uh, this is not to be taken out of Cut is not to be taken the extreme of talking about people, but overall, our relationship with technology is a bullying, controlling relationship. That's why I called it authoritarianism. >> Upgrade your iPhone to the new version. >> Well, whether it's as a user that you're giving up your your your authority to all these notifications and to your addiction, whether it is the fact that it is the control with the data, whether it is predictive ai ai algorithms that are reading your unconscious behaviors and telling you what you think, because if it's suggesting what you by putting things in front of you. So there are all of these behaviors that our relationship with technology is not a balanced relationship and you could one. You have a culture where the companies that are that have that power are driving towards. It's a culture of moving fast growth only don't think about the consequences. It's not just the unintended consequences, but it's the consequences of intended use. So the business models and at which we don't need to go into, because I think a lot of other people talk about that all end up with a situation which is unhealthy for us as people and humanity and for us as a society. So you take that part and it is. There's a parallel here, and we should learn from what happened with industrial Ah, the industrial revolution. We want progress. But if we don't pay attention to the harm, the harmful byproducts and trade offs of progress, it's why we have issues with climate. It's why we have plastic in our oceans. It's because you, you judge everything by progresses just growth and industrialization without thinking about well being or the consequences. Well, I believe we now face a similar challenge of digitization, so it's not industrialization. But it's digitalization that has byproducts in a whole number of areas. And so what the the article does is get into those specifics, whether it's data or anxiety, how we think our cognitive abilities, our ability to solve problems, All of those things are byproducts of progress. And so we should debate um, where we what we're willing to give up one last thing. And then I'll have to come in, which is one of the problems with both of these is is humans value convenience. We get addicted to convenience, and if somebody gives us something that is going to make things more convenient, it sure is held to go backward. And that's one of the reasons the combination of measuring our goodness as a country or a CZ. Globalization by economic growth and measuring our personal wellness by convenience, if something is more convenient, were happier. Take those two together, and it makes a dangerous cop combination because then our need for community convenience gets manipulated for continued economic growth. And it doesn't necessarily end up in, Ah, progress from, ah, well being perspective. >> It's interesting point about the digitization, because the digital industrial revolution, when the digital revolution is happening, has consequences. We're seeing them and you point them out in your post Facebook and fake news. There's also the global landscape is the political overlay. There's societal impact. There's not enough scholars that I've been trained in the art of understanding into relationships of technology, and Peg used to be a nerd thing. And now my kids are growing up. Digital natives. Technology is mainstreams, and there it is. Politics. You know, the first hack collection, Some of the control, The first president actually trolled his way. That president, I said that I'm the kid. That was my position. He actually was a successful troll and got everyone he trolled the media and you got the attention. These air new dynamics, This is reality. So is you look forward and bring these ideas, and I want to get your thoughts on ideas on how to bring people together. You've been on a CTO Cisco Systems. I know you've been sleeping on a board. This is a cross pollination opportunity. Bring people together to think about this. How do you do You look at that? How do you view how to take the next steps as a as an industry, as a society and as a global nations? It eventually, because cyber security privacy is becoming polarized. Also on a geography bases in China they have. GPR is hard core there. In Europe, he got Asia. With Chinese. You got America being American. It's kind of complicated as a system architecture thinking. How do you look at this? What is the playing field where the guard rails? What's your thoughts on this? Because it's a hard one, >> right? So it is a hard one and it isn't. It isn't easy to pave out a path that says it's solvable. Um, nor does Climate right now. But you have to believe we're going to figure it out because we have to figure it out. So I think there are a lot of pieces that we need to start with, and then we need to adjust along the way. And, um, one piece is and let me back up. I am not. I don't believe we can leave this up to the industry to solve the incentives and the value systems and the understanding of the issues. The industry is coming from an industry perspective, and you can't also. You also can't leave it just two technologists because technologists have a technology person perspective. I don't believe that you just can have government solve it for a variety of reasons. One is, if it takes a spectrum of things to legislation, tends to be retroactive, not forward looking. And you need to be really careful not to come up with regulation that actually reinforces the status quo as opposed to making something better. But I think we need to. We do need to figure out how to govern in a way that includes all of these things. So once >> it's running, it's clear that watching the Facebook hearing and watching soon dark sky in front of the house. Our current elected officials actually don't even know how the Internet works, so that's one challenge. So you have a shift in its every beat >> and it and it's actually, if you think about the way legislation often gets made one of the problems with our democracy right now, I'm not going to put it in quotes. But I want to put it >> out. >> Is that the influence of money on our democracy means that so often the input toe legislation comes from industry. So whether it's again big tech, big pharma, big Oil, big. That's the way this cycle works in places where we have had successful legislation that industry input, what you need industry input. You just don't want industry to be the on ly input that is balanced with other input. And so we need infrastructure in the world. In the country that has policy ideas, technology. This needs to come from civil society, from the academy from non profits. So you need the same way we have environmental sciences. We need to fund from government, not just industry funded that science. That's number one. And then we need ways to have conversations about influencing companies to do the right thing. Some of it is going to be through legislation some of it is going to be for through pressure. This, in some ways is like tobacco in some ways, like it's like food. In some ways, it's like climate on DH. It's so and an underlying any of this to happen. We need people to understand and to speak up because awareness amongst whether it's individuals, parents, teachers, we need to give people the information to protect themselves and to push back on companies and to rally pushback on government. Because if if there's not an awareness of people are walking around saying, Don't take away my service, don't make this less convenient don't tax my soda. Don't tell me my text messages. That's right, so and I'm not saying taxes of the way. But if there isn't what what I'm focused on is, how do we build awareness? How do we get information out? How do we get companies like yours and others that this becomes part of >> our >> messaging of understanding so we can be talking about I >> think it's, you know back, Teo, The glory days of the TCP epi Internet revolution. He sent a package from here to there. It's a step. Take a first step. I personally listening to you talk feel and I said, It's on The Cuban people know that. You know, my my rap know that I've been pounding this. There's a counter culture in there somewhere. Counter culture's is where action happens, and I think you know, tax regulation and, you know, the current generations inherited. It is what it is we have. You're laying out essentially the current situation. John Markoff wrote a great book, What the door Mail said, talking about how the sixties counterculture influence the computer industry from breaking in for getting computer time for time sharing, too hippy revolution question I have for you put you on the spot. Is Is there a counterculture in your mind? Coming a digital hippie quotes is because I feel it. I feel that that let the air out of the balloon before it pops. Something has to happen and I think has to be a counterculture. I yet yet can't put my finger on it. Maybe it's a digital kind of a revolution, something compelling that says Whoa time out. >> All right? I think we need a couple of counter culture's in that in layers of it, because, um, I think there is going to be or is starting to be a counterculture amongst technologist and the technology industry and entrepreneurs who are some it's still small who are saying, You know what? This chasing unicorns and fastest growth and scale, you know, move faxed and break things. But, um, we want to move fast, but we want to think about whether we're breaking what we're breaking is really dangerous, you know, move fast and break things is fine, but if it's oops, we broke democracy. That isn't something that, uh that is I'm sorry you have to think about and adapt more quickly. So I think there is Are people who are talking about let's talk openly about the harm. Let's not just be tech optimists. Let's understand that it's small, but it's beginning and you're seeing it in a I for instance, the people who are saying Look, were technologists, we want to be responsible. This is a powerful weapon or tool. And let's make sure we think about how we use it. Let me just say one thing, which is, I think we needed another kind of counterculture, which I'm hoping is happing in a number of areas, which is societally saying, You know, we have a slow food movement. Maybe we just need a slow down, a little bit movement. So if you look at mindfulness, if you look at kids who are starting to say, You know what? I want to talk to someone in person, I don't. So we we need some of that counter movement where I'm hoping the pedestal starts to come back. In terms of people looking for real connectivity and not just numbers of connections, >> it's interesting, You know, everything has a symmetrical, responsible thing about it. For every fake news payload and network effect is potentially an opposite reaction of quality network effect. It's interesting, and I don't know where it is, but I think that's got it could be filled, certainly on the economic side, by new entrepreneurial thinking, like one observation I'm making is you know this. Remember, they'll bad boys of tech and he's smiling. Now It's bad gals, too, which is growing still lower numbers. So I think there's gonna be a shift to the good, the good folks right moment. But she's a she's a good entrepreneur. She's not just out there to make a quick buck or hey, mission driven za signal we're seeing. So you start to see a little bit more of a swing to Whoa, hey, let's recognize that it's not about, you know, could Buck or >> so, yes, but between you and I, it's teeny compared to the other forces. So that's what those of us who believe that needs to happen need to continue to >> one of those forces money making. >> I think it's a combination of, Ah, money and how much money, Dr. Celebrity culture, um, the forces, the power that's in place is so strong that it's hard to break through, um, short term thinking, not even being trained. So like so many things in our culture, where you have entrenched power and then you see uprising and you get hope and that's where you need the hope. But, um, we've seen it so often in so many movements, from race to gender, where you think, Oh, that's solved, it's not solved and then you come back in and come back at it. So I just I would argue that there is little bits of it, but it needs fuel. It needs continuity. It it. And the reason I think we need some government regulation is it needs help because it's not gonna >> happen. You should question, you know, some successes that I point out Amazon Web services, Google even having a long game kind of narrative they're always kind of were misunderstood at first. Remember, Google was loud by search is not doing too well. Then the rest is history. Amazon was laughed. Amazon Web services was laughed at. So people who have the long game seemed to be winning in these transitions. And that's kind of what you're getting at. You think long term, the long game. If you think in terms of the long term vision, you then going look at consequences differently. How many people do you run in? The valleys actually think like that. Okay, >> so we're talking about two different things. One is long term thinking, and I do think that apple, Google, Amazon have taken long term thinking's. So there are a good example. But if you look at them, if we look at the big companies in terms of the way they approached the market and competition and their potential negative impacts on overall society, they're part of the power. They're not doing anything to change the systems, to not >> have good and continue to benefit. The rich get richer. >> So there this This is why it's complicated. There are not good guys and bad guys there are. These people are doing this and that. So do I think overall dough? I see more long term thinking. Um, not really. I think that the incentives in the investment community, the incentives in the stock market. The incentives culturally are still very much around shorter term thinking. Not that there aren't any, but >> yeah, I would agree. I mean, it tends to be, you know, Hey, we're crushing it. We're winning, you know? Look at us. Growth hack. I mean, just the languages. Semantics. You look at that. I think it's changed. I think Facebook is, I think, the poster child of short term thinking growth hacks move fast, break stuff and look where they are, you know, they can't actually sustaining and brand outside of Facebook, they have to buy Instagram and these other companies to actually get the kind of growth. But certainly Facebook is dominate on the financial performance, but they're kind of sitting in their situation. I think you know the bro Grammer movement, I think is kind of moving through the white common ear culture of Okay, let's get some entrepreneurship going. Great. Rod. I think that's stabilising. I think we're seeing with cloud really science and thinking for good. That's a positive sign. >> Well, I'm I'm glad to hear that from you, you know, and all >> you're probably going with. >> No, no, no, I'll take that and take that into feeding my hope because I hope, >> well, the movement is classic. Look, we're not gonna tolerate this anymore. I think transparency in my final question to you before you get to some of the more entrepreneur Question says, If you look at the role of community on data, science and connectedness, one of the things about being connected is you got potential potential for collective intelligence. So if you look at data, as I said, networks, what if there was a way to kind of hone that network to get to the truth fast? Esther, something we've been working on here, and I think that's something that, you know changes media. It changes the game. But collective intelligent, the role of the community now becomes a stakeholder and potentially laying out. So his problems and you're part of the Mayfield community was co created this video with roll community, super important people. The rule of the of the person your thoughts on >> so I community is a word that is has takes on a lot of meetings, and the problem is when you mean it one way and use it the other way, the same as data driven. So I think there's at one level which is community and conductivity that has to do with collecting input from lots of sources. And when you talk about investigative journalism or they're in environmental situations or all sorts of areas where the ability to collect information from lots of sources that air interested and analyze that information that is one level of community and connectivity and networking because of people you know which is great, there's another type. When people talk about community, they mean a sense of community in terms of what humans need and what that connectivity is. And most online networks don't give you that level. The online needs to be augmented by, Ah, inter personal understanding. And one of the problems. I think with today's technology is we're fitting humans into bits that technology Khun Support, as opposed to recognizing what are our human needs that we want to hold on to and saying There are some things that are not going to fit into somebody's data set. So in that first type of community than absolutely, I think there's lots of benefits of the cloud and wisdom of the crowd. But if you're talking about humans connecting in people. You don't have the same type of, uh, that that really community online tools can help. But we should never confuse what happens in our online world >> with your final question for, you know, we got We're pushing the time here. Thank you for spending time. First of all, it's great conversation. You've seen the movie with venture capital from the beginning. You know, all the original players seeing what is now just where's that come from? Where are we? What's the state of VC? Then? He hope to the future, they all adding value. How do you see that evolving and where are we with? >> You know, I would. I think venture capital has gone through a lot of different phases. And like so many things, especially those of us who want computers, we liketo lump them all together. They're not altogether. There are some small, Yes, like they field. And the I do think, though, that something shifted in the lead up to the dot com. Ah, and later the burst. And what shifted is venture capitalists. Before that time were company builders. They were the financiers, but they saw themselves with the entrepreneur building companies because of the expansion leading up to two thousand, and the funds grew and the people coming into the field were, they became more bankers and they took more financial supposed to balancing financing and entrepreneurship. It felt like it moved. Maurin toe. This is a private equity play, Um, and I think the dynamic with entrepreneurs and the methodology overall shifted, and I don't know that that's changed Now again, not across the board. I think there are some, uh, those firms that have identified our partners within firms who still very much want Teo filled companies and partner with entrepreneurs. But I think the dynamic shifted, and if you view them as that's what they are, is private equity investors. And don't expect something else. If people need money, that's a good pick. Ones that are the best partner >> is your partner. If you want a banker, go here. If you want Builder, go their key distinction. Judy. Thanks for sharing that insight. We're Judy Estrin. Sea of Jail as author of Closing Innovation. Gabbas Wellman's well known entrepreneur advisor board member formally CTO of Cisco. And again, Great gas. Thanks for coming on I'm John for Herewith. Cube conversation. Part ofmy Mayfield. People first with the Cube. Thanks for watching.

>> [Announcer] Live, from Boston, Massachusetts, it's the Cube, covering Spark Summit East 2017, brought to you by Data Breaks. Now, your host, Dave Alante and George Gilbert. >> Welcome back to snowy Boston everybody, this is The Cube, the leader in live tech coverage. Arun Murthy is here, he's the founder and vice president of engineering at Horton Works, father of YARN, can I call you that, godfather of YARN, is that fair, or? (laughs) Anyway. He's so, so modest. Welcome back to the Cube, it's great to see you. >> Pleasure to have you. >> Coming off the big keynote, (laughs) you ended the session this morning, so that was great. Glad you made it in to Boston, and uh, lot of talk about security and governance, you know we've been talking about that years, it feels like it's truly starting to come into the main stream Arun, so. >> Well I think it's just a reflection of what customers are doing with the tech now. Now, three, four years ago, a lot of it was pilots, a lot of it was, you know, people playing with the tech. But increasingly, it's about, you know, people actually applying stuff in production, having data, system of record, running workloads both on prem and on the cloud, cloud is sort of becoming more and more real at mainstream enterprises. So a lot of it means, as you take any of the examples today any interesting app will have some sort of real time data feed, it's probably coming out from a cell phone or sensor which means that data is actually not, in most cases not coming on prem, it's actually getting collected in a local cloud somewhere, it's just more cost effective, why would we put up 25 data centers if you don't have to, right? So then you got to connect that data, production data you have or customer data you have or data you might have purchased and then join them up, run some interesting analytics, do geobased real time threat detection, cyber security. A lot of it means that you need a common way to secure data, govern it, and that's where we see the action, I think it's a really good sign for the market and for the community that people are pushing on these dimensions of the broader, because, getting pushed in this dimension because it means that people are actually using it for real production work loads. >> Well in the early days of Hadoop you really didn't talk that much about cloud. >> Yeah. >> You know, and now, >> Absolutely. >> It's like, you know, duh, cloud. >> Yeah. >> It's everywhere, and of course the whole hybrid cloud thing comes into play, what are you seeing there, what are things you can do in a hybrid, you know, or on prem that you can't do in a public cloud and what's the dynamic look like? >> Well, it's definitely not an either or, right? So what we're seeing is increasingly interesting apps need data which are born in the cloud and they'll stay in the cloud, but they also need transactional data which stays on prem, you might have an EDW for example, right? >> Right. >> There's not a lot of, you know, people want to solve business problems and not just move data from one place to another, right? Or back from one place to another, so it's not interesting to move an EDW to the cloud, and similarly it's not interesting to bring your IOT data or sensor data back into on-prem, right? Just makes sense. So naturally what happens is, you know, at Hortonworks we talk of kinds of modern app or a modern data app, which means a modern data app has to spare, has to sort of, you know, it can pass both on-prem data and cloud data. >> Yeah, you talked about that in your keynote years ago. Furio said that the data is the new development kit. And now you're seeing the apps are just so dang rich, >> Exactly, exactly. >> And they have to span >> Absolutely. >> physical locations, >> Yeah. >> But then this whole thing of IOT comes up, we've been having a conversation on The Cube, last several Cubes of, okay, how much stays out, how much stays in, there's a lot of debates about that, there's reasons not to bring it in, but you talked today about some of the important stuff will come back. >> Yeah. >> So the way this is, this all is going to be, you know, there's a lot of data that should be born in the cloud and stay there, the IOT data, but then what will happen increasingly is, key summaries of the data will move back and forth, so key summaries of your EDW will move to the cloud, sometimes key summaries of your IOT data, you know, you want to do some sort of historical training in analytics, that will come back on-prem, so I think there's a bi-directional data movement, but it just won't be all the data, right? It'll be key interesting summaries of the data but not all of it. >> And a lot of times, people say well it doesn't matter where it lives, cloud should be an operating model, not a place where you put data or applications, and while that's true and we would agree with that, from a customer standpoint it matters in terms of performance and latency issues and cost and regulation, >> And security and governance. >> Yeah. >> Absolutely. >> You need to think those things through. >> Exactly, so I mean, so that's what we're focused on, to make sure that you have a common security and governance model regardless of where data is, so you can think of it as, infrastructure you own and infrastructure you lease. >> Right. >> Right? Now, the details matter of course, when you go to the cloud you lose S3 for example or ADLS from Microsoft, but you got to make sure that there's a common sort of security governance front and top of it, in front of it, as an example one of the things that, you know, in the open source community, Ranger's a really sort of key project right now from a security authorization and authentication standpoint. We've done a lot of work with our friends at Microsoft to make sure, you can actually now manage data in Wasabi which is their object store, data stream, natively with Ranger, so you can set a policy that says only Dave can access these files, you know, George can access these columns, that sort of stuff is natively done on the Microsoft platform thanks to the relationship we have with them. >> Right. >> So that's actually really interesting for the open source communities. So you've talked about sort of commodity storage at the bottom layer and even if they're different sort of interfaces and implementations, it's still commodity storage, and now what's really helpful to customers is that they have a common security model, >> Exactly. >> Authorization, authentication, >> Authentication, lineage prominence, >> Oh okay. >> You want to make sure all of these are common sources across. >> But you've mentioned off of the different data patterns, like the stuff that might be streaming in on the cloud, what, assuming you're not putting it into just a file system or an object store, and you want to sort of merge it with >> Yeah. >> Historical data, so what are some of the data stores other than the file system, in other words, newfangled databases to manage this sort of interaction? >> So I think what you're saying is, we certainly have the raw data, the raw data is going to line up in whatever cloud native storage, >> Yeah. >> It's going to be Amazon, Wasabi, ADLS, Google Storage. But then increasingly you want, so now the patterns change so you have raw data, you have some sort of an ETL process, what's interesting in the cloud is that even the process data or, if you take the unstructured raw data and structure it, that structured data also needs to live on the cloud platform, right? The reason that's important is because A, it's cheaper to use the native platform rather than set up your own database on top of it. The other one is you also want to take advantage of all the native sources that the cloud storage provides, so for example, linking your application. So automatically data in Wasabi, you know, if you can set up a policy and easily say this structured data stable that I have of which is a summary of all the IOT activity in the last 24 hours, you can, using the cloud provider's technologies you can actually make it show up easily in Europe, like you don't have to do any work, right? So increasingly what we Hortonworks focused a lot on is to make sure that we, all of the computer engines, whether it's Spark or Hive or, you know, or MapReduce, it doesn't really matter, they're all natively working on the cloud provider's storage platform. >> [George] Okay. >> Right, so, >> Okay. >> That's a really key consideration for us. >> And the follow up to that, you know, there's a bit of a misconception that Spark replaces Hadoop, but it actually can be a processing, a compute engine for, >> Yeah. >> That can compliment or replace some of the compute engines in Hadoop, help us frame, how you talk about it with your customers. >> For us it's really simple, like in the past, the only option you had on Hadoop to do any computation was MapReduce, that was, I started working in MapReduce 11 years ago, so as you can imagine, it's a pretty good run for any technology, right? Spark is definitely the interesting sort of engine for sort of the, anything from mission learning to ETL for data on top of Hadoop. But again, what we focus a lot on is to make sure that every time we bring in, so right now, when we started on HTP, the first on HTP had about nine open source projects literally just nine. Today, the last one we shipped was 2.5, HTP 2.5 had about 27 I think, like it's a huge sort of explosion, right? But the problem with that is not just that we have 27 projects, the problem is that you're going to make sure each of the 27 work with all the 26 others. >> It's a QA nightmare. >> Exactly. So that integration is really key, so same thing with Spark, we want to make sure you have security and YARN (mumbles), like you saw in the demo today, you can now run Spark SQL but also make sure you get low level (mumbles) masking, all of the enterprise capabilities that you need, and I was at a financial services three or four weeks ago in Chicago. Today, to do equivalent of what I showed today on demo, they need literally, they have a classic ADW, and they have to maintain anywhere between 1500 to 2500 views of the same database, that's a nightmare as you can imagine. Now the fact that you can do this on the raw data using whether it's Hive or Spark or Peg or MapReduce, it doesn't really matter, it's really key, and that's the thing we push to make sure things like YARN security work across all the stacks, all the open source techs. >> So that makes life better, a simplification use case if you will, >> Yeah. >> What are some of the other use cases that you're seeing things like Spark enable? >> Machine learning is a really big one. Increasingly, every product is going to have some, people call it, machine learning and AI and deep learning, there's a lot of techniques out there, but the key part is you want to build a predictive model, in the past (mumbles) everybody want to build a model and score what's happening in the real world against model, but equally important make sure the model gets updated as more data comes in on and actually as the model scores does get smaller over time. So that's something we see all over, so for example, even within our own product, it's not just us enabling this for the customer, for example at Hortonworks we have a product called SmartSense which allows you to optimize how people use Hadoop. Where the, what are the opportunities for you to explore deficiencies within your own Hadoop system, whether it's Spark or Hive, right? So we now put mesh learning into SmartSense. And show you that customers who are running queries like you are running, Mr. Customer X, other customers like you are tuning Hadoop this way, they're running this sort of config, they're using these sort of features in Hadoop. That allows us to actually make the product itself better all the way down the pipe. >> So you're improving the scoring algorithm or you're sort of replacing it with something better? >> What we're doing there is just helping them optimize their Hadoop deploys. >> Yep. >> Right? You know, configuration and tuning and kernel settings and network settings, we do that automatically with SmartSense. >> But the customer, you talked about scoring and trying to, >> Yeah. >> They're tuning that, improving that and increasing the probability of it's accuracy, or is it? >> It's both. >> Okay. >> So the thing is what they do is, you initially come with a hypothesis, you have some amount of data, right? I'm a big believer that over time, more data, you're better off spending more, getting more data into the system than to tune that algorithm financially, right? >> Interesting, okay. >> Right, so you know, for example, you know, talk to any of the big guys on Facebook because they'll do the same, what they'll say is it's much better to get, to spend your time getting 10x data to the system and improving the model rather than spending 10x the time and improving the model itself on day one. >> Yeah, but that's a key choice, because you got to >> Exactly. >> Spend money on doing either, >> One of them. >> And you're saying go for the data. >> Go for the data. >> At least now. >> Yeah, go for data, what happens is the good part of that is it's not just the model, it's the, what you got to really get through is the entire end to end flow. >> Yeah. >> All the way from data aggregation to ingestion to collection to scoring, all that aspect, you're better off sort of walking through the paces like building the entire end to end product rather than spending time in a silo trying to make a lot of change. >> We've talked to a lot of machine learning tool vendors, application vendors, and it seems like we got to the point with Big Data where we put it in a repository then we started doing better at curating it and understanding it then starting to do a little bit exploration with business intelligence, but with machine learning, we don't have something that does this end to end, you know, from acquiring the data, building the model to operationalizing it, where are we on that, who should we look to for that? >> It's definitely very early, I mean if you look at, even the EDW space, for example, what is EDW? EDW is ingestion, ETL, and then sort of fast query layer, Olap BI, on and on and on, right? So that's the full EDW flow, I don't think as a market, I mean, it's really early in this space, not only as an overall industry, we have that end to end sort of industrialized design concept, it's going to take time, but a lot of people are ahead, you know, the Google's a world ahead, over time a lot of people will catch up. >> We got to go, I wish we had more time, I had so many other questions for you but I know time is tight in our schedule, so thanks so much Arun, >> Appreciate it. For coming on, appreciate it, alright, keep right there everybody, we'll be back with our next guest, it's The Cube, we're live from Spark Summit East in Boston, right back. (upbeat music)