(upbeat electronic music) >> Announcer: Live from Vancouver, Canada, it's theCUBE, covering OpenStack Summit North America 2018. Brought to you by Red Hat, the OpenStack Foundation, and its ecosystem partners. >> Welcome back to The Cube's coverage of OpenStack Summit 2018 in Vancouver. I'm Stu Miniman with my co-host John Troyer. Happy to welcome back a company we've spoken to a few times at events, Paddy Power Betfair. First time guest coming to us from across the pond, Dave Buckley who is the automation engineer with Paddy Power Betfair, thanks for joining us. >> Thank you for having me. >> Alright, so first of all, you've been to a couple summits and we've talked to Paddy Power about OpenStack. Before we get into your specific implementation, tell us about your experience here this week and any compare, contrast to previous years. >> Yeah so I'm very lucky, I got to come to the previous two summits in North America. I guess what I've enjoyed this week, it's kind of a slight tilt towards, it's away from being purely OpenStack, kind of towards this open infrastructure kind of thing, 'cause like I said, especially last year in Boston, Q and NEs was becoming a big thing. Yeah, and kind of, the OpenStack Foundation becoming kind of more, not that it wasn't before, but more community-based and being part of the ecosystem. So, yeah, I think it's been quite interesting seeing that. >> Not to put words in your mouth but, it was even, the last year or two, it's more aware of some of the complimentary things and adding pieces. You know, we had, one of the interviews we did this week was person who's the SIC lead for the Kubernetes stuff, that sits under another Foundation, things like that. Yeah, exactly. It's been quite interesting this week, I guess, sort the Kata Container project, which wasn't something I'd been aware of before Monday morning basically. I remember we were sitting in the keynotes, and they were like, you can have this container-like thing which has all the speed of a container, but it's as secure as a BM. And you're thinking, how, how is that even possible? So I've really enjoyed, I got to go to one of the sessions yesterday, one of the technical introductions on that. >> Yeah, I always love, there's certain things where, okay, this is what I'm going to do with my schedule, and turns into, this got announced, or I didn't know about this, and you knew, blow up my schedule, let me change everything else. Yeah, exactly, I think you always, you can't, you have to be flexible, right? Adaptable, and as the week goes on you just go to what you think is interesting. >> John: So Dave, you and your company have been working with OpenStack for quite a while. >> Dave: Yeah. >> And you obviously run a system that needs to be stable. Right, needs to, you take care of betting and people's money. >> Dave: Exactly. >> So that needs to be solid. But I understand you recently went though an upgrade and have some experiences talking about that? Can you talk a little bit about where you are with your OpenStack implementation and that sort of migration? >> Sure. So, I guess it's about three years ago, it was Betfair at the time, so this was before the merger of the two companies. So Betfair started using OpenStack, and I think it was actually the last time the summit was here, in Vancouver. So a couple of my colleagues who were kind of the technical leads at the time. Steve Armstrong and Steve Perera, they flew out here, to kind of get a feel for OpenStack, what it was, talk to people who'd had experiences with it. I actually think that conference back then was very informative of what the platform today now looks like. So some of the conversations they had there with people like New Age Networks and Arista, which we used for the switching, but conversations they had there kind of ended up being now what we're using in production. I guess over the past couple of years, so the big thing that happened obviously was this merger between Paddy Power and Betfair, following that they had an exercise which they called the single customer platform, which is annoyingly, for a sys-admin guy, kind of like me, they, it's always been abbreviated to SCP, but you have to ignore that. So that was to kind of consolidate and integrate the Paddy Power and Betfair co-bases and put it on a single platform, which was our OpenStack and Nuage platform. So that kind of completed in January this year, so that's live, so basically the Paddy Power sports book has an entirely new website, all running on OpenStack. A lot quicker and more efficient then the previous version. So that's been a real success. And as part of that, I should say that stability is really vital, so kind of in our business. If the site is down we don't make any money, and if it happens during a big sporting event you have a big problem. >> Do you have a metric around that? What a minute or an hour of down time would be? >> So I guess it always depends, so the nature of our traffic is very spikey. So obviously when you have a big, it's on a Saturday in Europe, the football, soccer, maybe I should say, is like a very big deal. >> We have a global audience, football's okay. >> I'll stick with football then. >> We were all watching the royal wedding. >> I don't want to talk about that. The football, if you, we just get peak traffic on that day. And, even within the year, there's a thing called the Grand National, which is a big event in the UK, big horse racing, I guess like the Kentucky Derby. It's kind of when we get our maximum traffic in the year. Yeah, you always need to be prepared for that. So one of the things as you mentioned, we kind of look into upgrade OpenStack from Kilo to Newton. So we've been on Kilo from the start. We're using Red Hat's distribution of OpenStack, so what Red Hat offer is this, they have like every three releases I think it is? They have this long release life-cycle. So that's kind of the reason we're going to Newton, cause we have kind of the, then the support will go to 2021. [Stu] - But if I remember, it's Red Hat the OpenStack Platform 10. >> Dave: Yeah. >> And 13 is going to be queened as their next one that's going to be released. >> Exactly, so I think they just announced that this week, right? So I think at some point in the next year or two we'd be going to queens. >> How do you determine when you make that jump and anything around the upgrade process, you know, good and bad that you could share. >> Dave: Yeah, so I guess going from, we were overdue an upgrade in this case, Kilos, you know, pretty old now. What we're lucky that we can do is because we have Nuage, it's like an external SDM provider, so the entire data plane is controlled by Nuage, and you can kind of plug as many OpenStacks as you like really into Nuage, and you offload all the networking to Nuage. So what's that's allowed us to do is basically we'd have had a lot of trouble if we'd had to do an in place upgrade, so I've actually been to one of the groups this week, quite a lot of people were talking about upgrades and just like all the nightmares it's caused. I know it's getting better as like the releases come out, but what we were able to do is kind of building new, an entirely new OpenStack cloud on the side of, so we've kind of turned it kind of an immutable OpenStack, so your OSB 7 cloud is there, we built this new OSB 10. But they're both circ into the same networking, so the same Nuage SDN. And the way our developers deploy their applications, I guess you want to see this in more detail, we've done presentations at these summits in the past, but kind of in short, every deployment we do immutable deployments as well, so for every deployment we'll create a new subnet within Nuage, and kind of do rolling update of your VMs that are on that new subnet into like a VIP which is kind of where the constant is, so all the traffic's come in to that VIP then you just flip things in and out below it when you do a deployment, so what that basically means is from a developers point of view, when they're migrating from OSB 7 to OSB 10 they'll essentially spin up new networks and new VMs in OSB 10 and that deployment pipeline will kind of just seamlessly, everything else will stay the same because the networking doesn't change. So we don't have to have any downtime on the data plane or the control plane. Which is really beneficial for us 'cause the way, I guess this is I'll just describe the way developers do deployments like we rely heavily on the OpenStack API being available. You pay a cost in that you, so you need extra hardware to do that I guess, but yeah we found it is something that's worked for us. >> John: Anything else with the networking and specifically that you all are running, the load balancing or resiliency that you need to have for your apps? >> Dave: Yeah so one of the things was, so it's kind of another problem there were trying to solve with this whole project, this new OpenStack platform is that historically Betfair, as it was at the time, had always run out of a single data-center. But we had another site, but it was mainly kind of a development environments right in there. So the company thought why don't we just have, we should just have both DCs for resiliency, try and run things in like an active-active configuration. Which is fine for external customer facing applications where we've had an external load balance server that can point traffic between the two DCs. But then the question is what do you do with internal apps? So this is what led us to use Avi Networks, which is kind of a cloud native load balancing technology, so we've been using to provide like GSLB internal laps, so basically we'll load balance traffic between the two data-centers so it gets deployed within your OpenStack environment, has a really neat integration with Nuage, the Nuage SDN layer, and will resolve you to whichever data-center is appropriate at that time. So if you have a full data-center outtage, you should be able to go "Okay, point stuff over there". >> John: So it makes you and the networking team or the IT team into the heroes not the villains, you're usually the people saying "No" or "We can't do that". >> I guess so, I guess so yeah you're probably right. It's cool technology though. I guess that we're very lucky and that we're given the opportunity by the people at the company to experiment with new things, so even though we're about stability but we're also about trying to push things forward in terms of what technology to use. >> Stu: Dave I'm curious how kind of the hybrid or multi-cloud type of environments fit into what you're doing today, give us the update there. >> Dave: Yeah so that's something very in our radar at the moment I guess it's, yeah it's what everybody's doing, looking to how you can have this hybrid cloud model. So I think, going back three years again, at that time, being like an online betting company, it's a highly regulated business and only at that point it was really possible to kind of put some of this stuff into the public cloud, it seems like things have come a long way, so it's something we're looking at at the moment, we're evaluating different solutions, different vendors like the Googles, AWSs, and seeing or even like some OpenStack public clouds and seeing maybe how could we migrate some workloads out into the public cloud, how do we want to that, to give us more resiliency, and also as I was saying about our spiky traffic, it just makes a lot of sense to be able to say burst out into whichever public cloud vendor on a Saturday when the football's on to deal with that peak load. So it's something we're very much looking at at the moment. But yeah no formal decisions as of yet. Unless they've done something while I've been away. >> John: With containers here at the show, lots of different threads right? Containers, Edge, the OpenDev track, things like that. Anything else, we've talked about Kata, anything else that came up that was interesting here that you just watch Kubernetes and container track as well? >> Dave: So I guess in terms of containers it's, sitting in the Keynotes on Monday you would, if you weren't watching if you were just listening, you probably wouldn't know you were at an OpenStack Summit right since there's as much Kubernetes container stuff as there is OpenStack. It's interesting so we've kind of been doing... Again, similar to the public cloud conversation, it's something that's very relevant to us at the moment, we've done kind of a few proof-of-concept ideas, evaluating different solutions, so we have like running a Cube cluster ourself, obviously we have a strong relationship with Red Hat that we've kind of explored to using OpenShift maybe, and then come the networking layer you can integrate with Nuage which would be really cool for us so it'll allow us to do kind of the all the networking, access control mechanisms as we do for our virtual machines. And again this is also something in the whole public cloud conversation is well if wanted to containers in the public cloud as well like you have all the different offerings, would we want to run our own, in like an AWS or something? Or maybe go to someone like Google where you have that supported self-service model I suppose. But yeah at the moment it's kind of at those stages so I think Steve did a presentation on the Kubernetes stuff like a PCO we done at the last Summit. But yeah still at the moment still want to make some firm decisions about which direction we're going to go but a lot of the developers a very keen for this and obviously for guys like us we all know the value of it so I think at the moment because we had that focus on stability we should now have a period of time where we're able to kind of look at all this stuff a bit more, hopefully get some container solutions into production which would be awesome. >> Stu: Dave Buckley we really appreciate you giving us the update, love to be able to do some of those longitudinal case studies as to where you've been where you're going, what you're thinking about. Be sure to check out thecube.net, you can actually search for Patty Power Betfair, see some of those previous interviews from Dave's peers. Loads more interviews there as well as all the shows we're going to be at in the future where hope you come by and say "Hi". For John Troyer I'm Stu Miniman, thanks so much for watching theCUBE. >> (electro-dance music) >> (soft piano)

>> Voiceover: Live from Boston, Massachusets, it's The Cube, covering OpenStack Summit 2017, brought to you by the OpenStack foundation, RedHat, and additional ecosystem support. >> Welcome back, I'm Stu Miniman, joined by my co-host John Troyer. We're really digging in to some of the practitioners here on day three of our coverage. Happy to welcome back to the program, a Cube alum. Not only that, a super user, and not only that, a cowinner Paddy Power Betfair, Steve Armstrong, principal automation engineer. Thanks so much for joining us and congratulations to you and all team. >> Thank you, thanks very much. >> Alright, so, we've had you on the program, bring us up to speed, you know, where's your OpenStack deployment going, where are you spending your time? You know, at the event and stuff. >> So we're just recently, last year, merged companies, so what we're doing with it at OpenStack implantation at the moment is we're migrating all of our applications onto it from the merged company, so we're in the migration phase of the project at the moment, so we just recently, just after Christmas, had the hundred applications onto the platform. Mayston, we're now up to around 200 applications, so what we're doing with it is we've got a single customer platform which is the Merscode base of the two companies, and then we're going to run different branding from it. So in terms of OpenStack, what we're doing is we're looking to do an upgrade in the next month, as well. We had the session earlier on today where we went through that, so hopefully that was insightful for the people that were here. >> So fascinating, I'll tell you what, one of the, you know, there are many challenges with mergers and acquisitions. IT can be atrocious. I've worked with plenty of companies, if they're small, the parent company comes in, rips out the entire thing, and puts a new thing. How's OpenStack, is that an enabler? Do you see it as a marked improvement? Any findings that you've got so far? >> Well I think with OpenStack, it is very flexible because we're using it as the Middleware for the whole platform, and so we've got different storage vendors, we can just substitute the end and then go to the OpenStack APIs, that programmatically control everything. So, it's really useful for us, so if we ever wanted to essentially use a new storage vendor then we don't have to rewrite all the self-service orchestration our developers are using and interrupt them, so that's really, that's key for us and our business. >> It's interesting you use the word middleware. I haven't heard that word used in terms of OpenStack, but you mean the layer, literally the layer, between storage networking the raw infrastructure, and the app on top. >> Yeah, so what we're really doing, we've created self-service template that our development teams use, and we then want multiple different ways for teams to create virtual machines and basically go the APIs directly, so what we've done is we've created a layer using Felt Works School, and where development teams fill in self-Service yamafells with all the details that it needs and then they can send them for structure that way, so we're simplifying it and making it user-friendly for them so that when they're onboarding an application, they don't actually need to come to the infrastructure team. They can basically self-serve against OpenStack, so I think that's giving them that EWS or Google Cloud or Azure-like ability within the private cloud, and we've had to really change the way our business is set-up to actually operate that, so generally what we've done is we set up different teams where they're more T-shaped teams, so you, in a T-shape team, you have a network engineer, you have a storage guy, you have some automation engineers, someone maybe from a development background, and what we really did with it, when we're building the pilot process, we tried to encapsulate all those different scales within the one team and set them up as a core team that would then go and build the infrastructure using best practices from each discipline. >> So a T-shaped in the sense that, the team is still cross-functional, what's the 'T' of the T-shape. >> So, the debt of the T is really the deep-dive expertise, so you might have a network engineer who has a deep-dive knowledge in that, but what we're trying to do is expand the teams breadth, so the breadth is the T is really the other disciplines that they are learning as part of that team. >> And congrats on the award again. >> Steve: Thank you. >> As they talked about the award, some of the description of why you got the award, they did mention, the words dev-ops and CICDs. You talked a little bit about an order structure and changing your org, and processes to do that. Now do you call that T-shaped, is that a dev-ops team for you, or how do you all look at it? >> We don't really like to use dev-ops team because it is kind of a- >> That was a trick question. >> Yeah, a leading question, so it was really, a. What we try to do is have cross-functional teams so really dev-ops for us, what it means, is more collaboration between those teams. We've still got teams at the moment within our business that are looking after the heritage legacy stacks at the moment, so what we'll need to do going forward in our business is bring those teams into the fold cause we've really had, I mean, essentially what we're doing at the moment, it's, like, gotten our bimodal, where you essential have more to, we're beltless. We need to take that to the next level and basically bring the people that have been looking after the other parts of the business because you need to maintain them while we're doing this new private-cloud implementation, along on that journey, so we're running training sessions now for our network engineers, teaching them mansible skill in the map, so it's really exciting time, just bringing on that journey. >> I actually think that's fascinating, because there's been a lot of talk about bimodal, type one versus type two and the word from the community and from the end users' raids, that's not sustainable. So, what you're saying is is indeed you can organize that way, but you've got to bring the old teams- >> Yeah, I think you can put names on anything, but generally that's what you do, you stand up, we stood up a brand new Greenfield implementation. You needed to people to go over to that, and act in a different way because OpenStack, it doesn't make sense having different styles, looking after different components of it, because OpenStack centralizes that into middleware, so it's actually quite difficult to chop that up into different styles. If you're going to do it, you couldn't have someone just looking after sender for instance because it's so incorporated with the rest of the stack. So really what we're doing is we're exposing that API layer to the developers and allowing them to self-service against it, and then we look after the core team, the maintenance of it, so we've done this with the team. Eight people looking after the core platform, and then we've got multiple different teams that went out and they helped the developers onboard many applications onto the platform by teaching them the self-service workflows and how to fill out all the yama files, and then if there's any feedback from them, we use a continuous improvement model to try and get them to improve the platform continuously. So, it's a continuum process and it's gets better and better each day, and hopefully we're going to speed up the amount of deployment that we can do and speed up take to market for it. >> Nice. So Steve, we've very much appropriated, you know, your organization sharing with our community. You're very active, obviously, in the super user. Talk about how you interact with your peers, you know, how that helped with your learnings, kind of that give and take that you have with the community. >> Yeah, so with the community, really, we come to these events, and we generally try to be as open as possible and just talk about our lessons learned. I think the OpenStack Summit's great for that because people are very honest. It's not like vendor-led. And met-ups, for instance, where they'll just tell you that everything's great and they're very self-deprecating in some of the sessions, but I think that honesty with the OpenSource community and the continual learning that you get from that is really key to actually looking at the problems, seeing 'OK, we're not 100% perfect' cause you never will be, and continuously improving as a community. So, I think having the belief then to drive with the OpenSource community is very key in that, and because that, I think, what you can do is if something in OpenStack isn't working the way that you want it to, you can contribute back and you can actually help make a difference and make it better. That's what we're trying to and there's projects such as Vitrush or Rickos and Alice's where at the moment you don't have a sense of plug-in, we use senses, so we begin to contribute back in write in a plug-in for that project so that we can use it, and then others basically benefit from that as well, so I think that's where OpenStack's very key. Your hear Edward Snowden's keynote, some controversial things in there, but at the same time, the premise was really if your putting your data somewhere else, like in public cloud, you don't actually know what's happening with, so that was something that resonated quite well because you have to look at what workload you want to run in public cloud and which ones you can run in private cloud, so I think it would really... We're just getting on to the next stages, and evolution and that journey where we will be looking at what workloads we place where, and I think that is where tubes like Cooper Nessus are really thriving, because they can place workloads wherever you want, and that's the popularity is so high. >> I'm wondering if you can speak a little bit to your company's corporate culture that allows, you know, this movement. I think, you know, information's open, eventually the house always wins on these bets, alright, with so much information available. >> Yeah, so, I think for us, the way that we've been able to do this is we've had sponsorship from CT level and Director level down, and it's very hard when you're doing a grassroots movement of just engineers trying to do this from the ground up. You really have to have a company that believes in this philosophy and wants to take it forward. And for us, what we really wanted to was just create a platform that allowed our developers to innovate on it, and just basically make the best tubes possible for our customers. >> So you're a longtime OpenStack user. We're now here in Boston, you know, Summits every six months. Anything in particular about the mood of people, the operators here, kind of how you would like to see both, you know, we've talked about Cooper and Eddie's, you've talked about different modules that you might want to see, you know, some activity in, or, just how you see in the future, path of OpenStack, how would you like the community and the project to grow? >> Well, I think there is a lot of presentations on stand-alone apps in OpenStack, so you have center stand-alone for box storage, you have ironic stand-alone. We use some of those projects to actually build it out, so I think module-bar rising it, and allowing it to be used, you might not want to install all of OpenStack, but why can't you install sender for instance, to control box storage, and so I think that's really the future of it. People could take all of it, or they could take different components of it, and I think that's what we're seeing in the community. People want to be able to install sender to help manage it, and maybe not install neutron or keystone alongside it, so I think that's really where OpenStack is going. It will be a modular metal service framework that makes it up, and you can install the best that you want in the project that you want. We've also seen a consolidation of projects, that the results of talk are in that eventually making projects simpler and removing features. I think when we originally had OpenStack, we just tried to throw every feature possible in, and then you seen a sprawl of projects, and then that's not maintainable. I think what we're getting down to is just the key projects that then use going forward, So I think you see the consolidation and then stand-alone instances that you can kind of plug-in the edges. >> So, Steve, let me speak a little bit about your business. I have to think there's few companies, you know, at least definitely fewer industries, that, deal with the rate of change and the uncertainty in the world, you know, more than really gambling in everything, that happens there. Anything changing in kind of the relationship of IT to the business? How does OpenStack help you respond to a very dynamic environment. >> Yeah, so, I think the key thing for us, is if one of our competitors has a feature, and we can't compete with that feature, we just will loose our customers to that competitor. So really being able to change and use OpenStack to change the platform and get new products out to market as quickly as possible is very key for us. Generally OpenStack is helping is we want an active, active data center We have a 24/7 business. We really need to have that uptake. If we are down, any sporting event, our customers will go somewhere else to place bets. So that's really key. And, for us, we've used OpenStack across two data centers, and built that out, and what we're looking to do is scale that out horizontally. So, for instance, when we've got new applications coming up onboard, we can just scale out new ratchets in openstack, we use ironic. We're completely controlling the whole data center programmatically, and that allows us the ability to scale up the infrastructure to meet the demands so that people are not waiting on tickets, or not having the internal IT processes that are handling most of our firms, so that's really where OpenStack is allowing us to evolve is that flexibility in having a private cloud just like you would a public cloud with VWS, but we've got that in-house. So I think we're quite lucky, and I keep telling the garages that are working on this, this is a once in a lifetime project, and I don't think they'll really believe me until they get their next job, so I think they're being quite spoiled in this as well. >> Steve Armstrong, really appreciate you joining us again on the program, and once again congratulations at Paddy Power Betfair and the whole team, and John and I will be back with more coverage here from the OpenStack Summit 2017 in Boston, Massachusetts You're watching the Cube.

>> Announcer: Live, from Boston, Massachusetts, it's theCUBE, covering OpenStack Summit 2017. Brought to you by The OpenStack Foundation, Red Hat, and additional ecosystems support. >> Hi, I'm Stu Miniman, and my cohost this week has been John Troyer. This is SiliconANGLE Media's production of theCUBE, worldwide leader in live tech coverage. And this has been OpenStack Summit 2017 in Boston, Massachusetts. John, we came in with a lot of questions. One of my premises, coming into the event was that we needed to reset expectations, a little bit. I know I learned a lot this week. Still one of my favorite communities. A lot of really smart people. Really interesting things going on. Open source infrastructure is really the focus here. Start with you, big meta takeaways from the show so far. >> Big picture, my first summit, my first summit here. Didn't quite know what to expect. I love the community, a lot of activity. A lot of real world activity going on. People building clouds today. So that was very insightful and very, that's a great data point. As far as the ecosystem goes, a lot more talk about integrating with the rest of the open source ecosystem, about integrating with other public and private clouds. So I thought that there was also a lot of self awareness here about where OpenStack is on it's journey and how it might proceed into the future. So overall, I think, you know, a really practical, focused, and grounded week. >> Yeah, came in with the whole concept of big tent. I think which we said, there's a big hole poked in that. There's the core is doing well, there's a number of projects, I forget the user survey, whether you know, there's the kind of the six core pieces and then there's like 9 or 10 in the average configuration. So there's more than the core, there's interesting things going into it and last year I felt that OpenStack kind of understood where it fit into that hybrid cloud environment. As you pointed out this year, some of those upper layer things, I feel like I understand them a little more. So, of course, containers and Kubernetes, a big piece of the discussion this week. Containers definitely transforming the way we build our applications. It seems a given now, that containers will be a big part of the future and OpenStack's ready for it. We had yesterday, we had the people that did the demo in the keynote, but containers doing well. Kubernetes fits in pretty well, even though, I think it was Randy Bias that said, "Well, OpenStack needs Kubernetes." My paraphrase is Kubernetes doesn't need OpenStack. KubeCon is going to be in Austin at the end of the year and that show could be bigger than this show was here in Boston. Year over year, for the North American show, attendance is down a little bit, but still robust attendance, lots of different pieces. Containers, Kubernetes, you mentioned some of the other pieces, any other add-ons on that? >> Well now, I mean other than its worth saying that these are not either or, this is all and. If you look at the total addressable market, every place that containers and Kubernetes can play, that's every cloud in the world, right? It's up there at the application layer. If you look at where OpenStack belongs, it is in these private clouds that have special needs, that have, either from privacy, security or functionality latency, just data gravity, right. There's all these reasons why you might want to build out a public cloud and we see that with Telco. Telecomm is building out their own infrastructure, because they need it, because they run the network core. So that's not going away. As far as containers go, again the story was not either or, it's and. You can containerize the infrastructure. That's super useful. Sometimes being bare metal is useful. Separately, you can put containers on top, because that's increasingly becoming the application packaging and interface format. So, I didn't see a lot of ideology here, Stu, and that was refreshing to me. People were not saying there is one true way. This is a modular system that, at this point in it's life cycle, it has to become very pragmatic. >> John, I think that's a great point, because we knock on, and everybody knocks on, OpenStack's not simple and the reason is because IT is not simple. Everybody has different challenges, therefore, it's not a Lego brick, it's lots of ways we put it together. Had some really interesting deep dives with a customer, couple of users today. The Adobe advertising cloud, Paddy Power Betfair, both of those gave us real concrete examples of how and why they build things the way they do. How OpenStack and Kubernetes go together. How acquiring another company, or switching your storage vendors is made easier by OpenStack. So, we've talked to a number of practitioners, they like OpenStack, reminds me of VMware. People like being able to build it and tweak it. Very different scale for some of these environments, but people are building clouds. The Telecom's are doing some good things. All the Linux companies are super excited about the future, that it helps them kind of move up the stack and become more critical environments and how it all ties into this multi-hybrid cloud world. Digital transformation, many of these pieces, I need that modern infrastructure and the open infrastructure coming from OpenStack and related pieces pull it all together. >> Well, where is the innovation going to come from in this next generation of cloud? I thought our segment with Orran, talking about the Massachusetts open cloud, was great, because he's there as a computer science professor, somebody who's been intimately involved with virtualization, with IBM, with VMware, saying, "Okay, we need to build this next generation. "Where can we innovate? We have to own the stack "and OpenStack is a great way for us to innovate "with those different components." One of the challenges, because OpenStack as a set of technologies, is so modular, is where's the knowledge come from? Where's the knowledge transfer? Can you find an OpenStack expert? Do you have to grow them? So, I see that as one challenge going forward for the OpenStack community, is how do we grow the knowledge base? How do we make sure that people are trained up and able to architect and operate OpenStack based clouds? >> Yeah, John, how about the individuals themselves? We talked to Lisa-Marie Namphy about the Ambassadors Program. We talked to a number of our guests throughout the week about training everything, from Orran Krieger, talking about how his students are helping to build this, to engagement contribution. I mean it's nuance, when I look at the future of jobs. A lot of companies here are hiring. Which is always heartening to me. What's your take on that aspect? >> Well, it's still a very vibrant community. You look at these different camps, a lot of them are vendor affiliated these days. There are very few communities that are outside of a vendor and these open source foundations are one source of those. I think, look there's still 5 or 6,000 people here, right? This is not a small event and these people are active, hands on operators, for the most part. So-- >> Yeah and the thing I'd point out, there are lots of companies that have contributors here. The other category is still really big here. A point Lisa-Marie made, many of the people that have contributed here have switched jobs a number of times. NASA helped start it. They kind of left, they came back. Some of the big Telecom companies, they're not selling OpenStack, they're using it to help build their services. So, it's like wait, which are vendors, which are providers? I think we know everybody's becoming a software company. Wait John, TechReckoning, are you a software company yet? >> We use a lot of soft, we use a lot of cloud, mostly on SaaS side. >> At SiliconANGLE Media we actually have a part of our business that is software. We've got a full development team, you know open source plays into somewhat we do, but I guess what I'm saying is, the traditional demarcation between the vendor and the consumer in open source tends to be blurring. I don't remember in the keynote if they had, hey how many people have contributed to the code. That's something that we used to get, partially because we have splintered out this event a little as to, the goals, it's no longer the people building it. They've got lots of ways to do that and a lot of the drama's gone. We had for many years in OpenStack, it was who's going to own what distribution and who's driving what project and a lot of that's come out. We talked about the last couple of years, has it become boring in certain ways? But it's important, it's driving a lot of pieces and OpenStack should be here to stay for awhile. >> Yeah, it's part of the conversation. I love the term open infrastructure. We heard it once or twice. We'll see if that becomes a topic of conversation. Going back to Lisa-Marie Namphy's segment, I encourage people to check out your local OpenStack meet-up right? You'll find that other conversations are going on there, other than just OpenStack. This is an ecosystem, it interacts with the rest of the world. >> Yeah, and talk about that next generation, edge is really interesting, the conversation we had with Beth Cohen. Also talked to Lee Doyle from the analysts perspective. Lots of cool things happening with that next generation of technology. 5G's going to play into it. So, there's always the next next thing and OpenStack's doing a good job to, as a community, to be open, working with it and understanding that they don't need to be all things to all people, certain other pieces will pull in and we have that broad diverse ecosystem. >> Looks a, I'll go out and make a prediction, I think in five years, we're going to look back and we're going to say, actually, OpenStack driven plumbing is going to be driving a lot of the next generation to the internet. >> Yeah, I love that, actually I forget if it's two or three years ago, what I said was that, as Linux took a long time to kind of work its way into all the environments, OpenStack pieces will find its way there. Brian Stevens from Google said, "If it wasn't for open source, in general, "Linux specifically, we wouldn't have "any of the hyperscale guys today." All those companies leverage open source a bunch. We've heard whisperings that, not just the telecommunications, some very large global companies that are trying to figure out how OpenStack fit into it. Coming into the show, it was all the talk about, oh, Intel stopped its joint lab with Rackspace, HPE pulled its cloud out, there's some other hyperscale companies that are looking at OpenStack. It's reached a certain maturity and it will fit in a number of places. All right, well, hey John, we started the beginning of the week, it was cloudy and overcast, a little cool in Boston. The skies opened up, it's blue. I've loved having two weeks here in Boston. Really appreciate you joining me for the journey here. Here for the OpenStack Summit. >> Thanks for having me, it was fascinating. >> Thank you John. Want to thank our audience, and thank the whole team here in Boston, and the broad SiliconANGLE media team. This is our biggest week that we've ever had, as to how much content we're creating. So, thanks so much to everyone. Thanks for our community for watching. As anything, when they scale, let us know if there's things we need to fix or feedback that you have for us. For Stu Miniman, John Troyer, the whole team here in Boston and beyond, I want to thank you so much for watching theCUBE. Be sure to check out SiliconANGLE TV for all the upcoming events. Let us know where we should be at and feel free to reach to us with any comments, and thank you for watching theCUBE. (light techno music)