foreign welcome back to re invent 2022 we're wrapping up four days well one evening and three solid days wall-to-wall of cube coverage I'm Dave vellante John furrier's birthday is today he's on a plane to London to go see his nephew get married his his great Sister Janet awesome family the furriers uh spanning the globe and uh and John I know you wanted to be here you're watching in Newark or you were waiting to uh to get in the plane so all the best to you happy birthday one year the Amazon PR people brought a cake out to celebrate John's birthday because he's always here at AWS re invented his birthday so I'm really pleased to have two really special guests uh former Cube host Cube Alum great wikibon contributor Stu miniman now with red hat still good to see you again great to be here Dave yeah I was here for that cake uh the twitterverse uh was uh really helping to celebrate John's birthday today and uh you know always great to be here with you and then with this you know Awesome event this week and friend of the cube of many time Cube often Cube contributor as here's a cube analyst this week as his own consultancy sarbj johal great to see you thanks for coming on good to see you Dave uh great to see you stu I'm always happy to participate in these discussions and um I enjoy the discussion every time so this is kind of cool because you know usually the last day is a getaway day and this is a getaway day but this place is still packed I mean it's I mean yeah it's definitely lighter you can at least walk and not get slammed but I subjit I'm going to start with you I I wanted to have you as the the tail end here because cause you participated in the analyst sessions you've been watching this event from from the first moment and now you've got four days of the Kool-Aid injection but you're also talking to customers developers Partners the ecosystem where do you want to go what's your big takeaways I think big takeaways that Amazon sort of innovation machine is chugging along they are I was listening to some of the accessions and when I was back to my room at nine so they're filling the holes in some areas but in some areas they're moving forward there's a lot to fix still it doesn't seem like that it seems like we are done with the cloud or The Innovation is done now we are building at the millisecond level so where do you go next there's a lot of room to grow on the storage side on the network side uh the improvements we need and and also making sure that the software which is you know which fits the hardware like there's a specialized software um sorry specialized hardware for certain software you know so there was a lot of talk around that and I attended some of those sessions where I asked the questions around like we have a specialized database for each kind of workload specialized processes processors for each kind of workload yeah the graviton section and actually the the one interesting before I forget that the arbitration was I asked that like why there are so many so many databases and IRS for the egress costs and all that stuff can you are you guys thinking about reducing that you know um the answer was no egress cost is not a big big sort of uh um show stopper for many of the customers but but the from all that sort of little discussion with with the folks sitting who build these products over there was that the plethora of choice is given to the customers to to make them feel that there's no vendor lock-in so if you are using some open source you know um soft software it can be on the you know platform side or can be database side you have database site you have that option at AWS so this is a lot there because I always thought that that AWS is the mother of all lock-ins but it's got an ecosystem and we're going to talk about exactly we'll talk about Stu what's working within AWS when you talk to customers and where are the challenges yeah I I got a comment on open source Dave of course there because I mean look we criticized to Amazon for years about their lack of contribution they've gotten better they're doing more in open source but is Amazon the mother of all lock-ins many times absolutely there's certain people inside Amazon I'm saying you know many of us talk Cloud native they're like well let's do Amazon native which means you're like full stack is things from Amazon and do things the way that we want to do things and you know I talk to a lot of customers they use more than one Cloud Dave and therefore certain things absolutely I want to Leverage The Innovation that Amazon has brought I do think we're past building all the main building blocks in many ways we are like in day two yes Amazon is fanatically customer focused and will always stay that way but you know there wasn't anything that jumped out at me last year or this year that was like Wow new category whole new way of thinking about something we're in a vocals last year Dave said you know we have over 200 services and if we listen to you the customer we'd have over two thousand his session this week actually got some great buzz from my friends in the serverless ecosystem they love some of the things tying together we're using data the next flywheel that we're going to see for the next 10 years Amazon's at the center of the cloud ecosystem in the IT world so you know there's a lot of good things here and to your point Dave the ecosystem one of the things I always look at is you know was there a booth that they're all going to be crying in their beer after Amazon made an announcement there was not a tech vendor that I saw this week that was like oh gosh there was an announcement and all of a sudden our business is gone where I did hear some rumbling is Amazon might be the next GSI to really move forward and we've seen all the gsis pushing really deep into supporting Cloud bringing workloads to the cloud and there's a little bit of rumbling as to that balance between what Amazon will do and their uh their go to market so a couple things so I think I think we all agree that a lot of the the announcements here today were taping seams right I call it and as it relates to the mother of all lock-in the reason why I say that it's it's obviously very much a pejorative compare Oracle company you know really well with Amazon's lock-in for Amazon's lock-in is about bringing this ecosystem together so that you actually have Choice Within the the house so you don't have to leave you know there's a there's a lot to eat at the table yeah you look at oracle's ecosystem it's like yeah you know oracle is oracle's ecosystem so so that is how I think they do lock in customers by incenting them not to leave because there's so much Choice Dave I agree with you a thousand I mean I'm here I'm a I'm a good partner of AWS and all of the partners here want to be successful with Amazon and Amazon is open to that it's not our way or get out which Oracle tries how much do you extract from the overall I.T budget you know are you a YouTube where you give the people that help you create a large sum of the money YouTube hasn't been all that profitable Amazon I think is doing a good balance of the ecosystem makes money you know we used to talk Dave about you know how much dollars does VMware make versus there um I think you know Amazon is a much bigger you know VMware 2.0 we used to think talk about all the time that VMware for every dollar spent on VMware licenses 15 or or 12 or 20 were spent in the ecosystem I would think the ratio is even higher here sarbji and an Oracle I would say it's I don't know yeah actually 1 to 0.5 maybe I don't know but I want to pick on your discussion about the the ecosystem the the partner ecosystem is so it's it's robust strong because it's wider I was I was not saying that there's no lock-in with with Amazon right AWS there's lock-in there's lock-in with everything there's lock-in with open source as well but but the point is that they're they're the the circle is so big you don't feel like locked in but they're playing smart as well they're bringing in the software the the platforms from the open source they're picking up those packages and saying we'll bring it in and cater that to you through AWS make it better perform better and also throw in their custom chips on top of that hey this MySQL runs better here so like what do you do I said oh Oracle because it's oracle's product if you will right so they are I think think they're filing or not slenders from their go to market strategy from their engineering and they listen to they're listening to customers like very closely and that has sort of side effects as well listening to customers creates a sprawl of services they have so many services and I criticized them last year for calling everything a new service I said don't call it a new service it's a feature of a existing service sure a lot of features a lot of features this is egress our egress costs a real problem or is it just the the on-prem guys picking at the the scab I mean what do you hear from customers so I mean Dave you know I I look at what Corey Quinn talks about all the time and Amazon charges on that are more expensive than any other Cloud the cloud providers and partly because Amazon is you know probably not a word they'd use they are dominant when it comes to the infrastructure space and therefore they do want to make it a little bit harder to do that they can get away with it um because um yeah you know we've seen some of the cloud providers have special Partnerships where you can actually you know leave and you're not going to be charged and Amazon they've been a little bit more flexible but absolutely I've heard customers say that they wish some good tunning and tongue-in-cheek stuff what else you got we lay it on us so do our players okay this year I think the focus was on the upside it's shifting gradually this was more focused on offside there were less talk of of developers from the main stage from from all sort of quadrants if you will from all Keynotes right so even Werner this morning he had a little bit for he was talking about he he was talking he he's job is to Rally up the builders right yeah so he talks about the go build right AWS pipes I thought was kind of cool then I said like I'm making glue easier I thought that was good you know I know some folks don't use that I I couldn't attend the whole session but but I heard in between right so it is really adopt or die you know I am Cloud Pro for last you know 10 years and I think it's the best model for a technology consumption right um because of economies of scale but more importantly because of division of labor because of specialization because you can't afford to hire the best security people the best you know the arm chip designers uh you can't you know there's one actually I came up with a bumper sticker you guys talked about bumper sticker I came up with that like last couple of weeks The Innovation favorite scale they have scale they have Innovation so that's where the Innovation is and it's it's not there again they actually say the market sets the price Market you as a customer don't set the price the vendor doesn't set the price Market sets the price so if somebody's complaining about their margins or egress and all that I think that's BS um yeah I I have a few more notes on the the partner if you you concur yeah Dave you know with just coming back to some of this commentary about like can Amazon actually enable something we used to call like Community clouds uh your companies like you know Goldman and NASDAQ and the like where Industries will actually be able to share data uh and you know expand the usage and you know Amazon's going to help drive that API economy forward some so it's good to see those things because you know we all know you know all of us are smarter than just any uh single company together so again some of that's open source but some of that is you know I think Amazon is is you know allowing Innovation to thrive I think the word you're looking for is super cloud there well yeah I mean it it's uh Dave if you want to go there with the super cloud because you know there's a metaphor for exactly what you described NASDAQ Goldman Sachs we you know and and you know a number of other companies that are few weeks at the Berkeley Sky Computing paper yeah you know that's a former supercloud Dave Linthicum calls it metacloud I'm not really careful I mean you know I go back to the the challenge we've been you know working at for a decade is the distributed architecture you know if you talk about AI architectures you know what lives in the cloud what lives at the edge where do we train things where do we do inferences um locations should matter a lot less Amazon you know I I didn't hear a lot about it this show but when they came out with like local zones and oh my gosh out you know all the things that Amazon is building to push out to the edge and also enabling that technology and software and the partner ecosystem helps expand that and Pull It in it's no longer you know Dave it was Hotel California all of the data eventually is going to end up in the public cloud and lock it in it's like I don't think that's going to be the case we know that there will be so much data out at the edge Amazon absolutely is super important um there some of those examples we're giving it's not necessarily multi-cloud but there's collaboration happening like in the healthcare world you know universities and hospitals can all share what they're doing uh regardless of you know where they live well Stephen Armstrong in the analyst session did say that you know we're going to talk about multi-cloud we're not going to lead with it necessarily but we are going to actually talk about it and that's different to your points too than in the fullness of time all the data will be in the cloud that's a new narrative but go ahead yeah actually Amazon is a leader in the cloud so if they push the cloud even if they don't say AWS or Amazon with it they benefit from it right and and the narrative is that way there's the proof is there right so again Innovation favorite scale there are chips which are being made for high scale their software being tweaked for high scale you as a Bank of America or for the Chrysler as a typical Enterprise you cannot afford to do those things in-house what cloud providers can I'm not saying just AWS Google cloud is there Azure guys are there and few others who are behind them and and you guys are there as well so IBM has IBM by the way congratulations to your red hat I know but IBM won the award um right you know very good partner and yeah but yeah people are dragging their feet people usually do on the change and they are in denial denial they they drag their feet and they came in IBM director feed the cave Den Dell drag their feed the cave in yeah you mean by Dragon vs cloud deniers cloud deniers right so server Huggers I call them but they they actually are sitting in Amazon Cloud Marketplace everybody is buying stuff from there the marketplace is the new model OKAY Amazon created the marketplace for b2c they are leading the marketplace of B2B as well on the technology side and other people are copying it so there are multiple marketplaces now so now actually it's like if you're in in a mobile app development there are two main platforms Android and Apple you first write the application for Apple right then for Android hex same here as a technology provider as and I I and and I actually you put your stuff to AWS first then you go anywhere else yeah they are later yeah the Enterprise app store is what we've wanted for a long time the question is is Amazon alone the Enterprise app store or are they partner of a of a larger portfolio because there's a lot of SAS companies out there uh that that play into yeah what we need well and this is what you're talking about the future but I just want to make a point about the past you talking about dragging their feet because the Cube's been following this and Stu you remember this in 2013 IBM actually you know got in a big fight with with Amazon over the CIA deal you know and it all became public judge wheeler eviscerated you know IBM and it ended up IBM ended up buying you know soft layer and then we know what happened there and it Joe Tucci thought the cloud was Mosey right so it's just amazing to see we have booksellers you know VMware called them books I wasn't not all of them are like talking about how great Partnerships they are it's amazing like you said sub GC and IBM uh with the the GSI you know Partnership of the year but what you guys were just talking about was the future and that's what I wanted to get to is because you know Amazon's been leading the way I I was listening to Werner this morning and that just reminded me of back in the days when we used to listen to IBM educate us give us a master class on system design and decoupled systems and and IO and everything else now Amazon is you know the master educator and it got me thinking how long will that last you know will they go the way of you know the other you know incumbents will they be disrupted or will they you know keep innovating maybe it's going to take 10 or 20 years I don't know yeah I mean Dave you actually you did some research I believe it was a year or so ago yeah but what will stop Amazon and the one thing that worries me a little bit um is the two Pizza teams when you have over 202 Pizza teams the amount of things that each one of those groups needs to take care of was more than any human could take care of people burn out they run out of people how many amazonians only last two or three years and then leave because it is tough I bumped into plenty of friends of mine that have been you know six ten years at Amazon and love it but it is a tough culture and they are driving werner's keynote I thought did look to from a product standpoint you could say tape over some of the seams some of those solutions to bring Beyond just a single product and bring them together and leverage data so there are some signs that they might be able to get past some of those limitations but I still worry structurally culturally there could be some challenges for Amazon to keep the momentum going especially with the global economic impact that we are likely to see in the next year bring us home I think the future side like we could talk about the vendors all day right to serve the community out there I think we should talk about how what's the future of technology consumption from the consumer side so from the supplier side just a quick note I think the only danger AWS has has that that you know Fred's going after them you know too big you know like we will break you up and that can cause some disruption there other than that I think they they have some more steam to go for a few more years at least before we start thinking about like oh this thing is falling apart or anything like that so they have a lot more they have momentum and it's continuing so okay from the I think game is on retail by the way is going to get disrupted before AWS yeah go ahead from the buyer's side I think um the the future of the sort of Technology consumption is based on the paper uh use and they actually are turning all their services to uh they are sort of becoming serverless behind the scenes right all analytics service they had one service left they they did that this year so every service is serverless so that means you pay exactly for the amount you use the compute the iops the the storage so all these three layers of course Network we talked about the egress stuff and that's a problem there because of the network design mainly because Google has a flatter design and they have lower cost so so they are actually squeezing the their their designing this their services in a way that you don't waste any resources as a buyer so for example very simple example when early earlier In This Cloud you will get a VM right in Cloud that's how we started so and you can get 20 use 20 percent of the VM 80 is getting wasted that's not happening now that that has been reduced to the most extent so now your VM grows as you grow the usage and if you go higher than the tier you picked they will charge you otherwise they will not charge you extra so that's why there's still a lot of instances like many different types you have to pick one I think the future is that those instances will go away the the instance will be formed for you on the fly so that is the future serverless all right give us bumper sticker Stu and then Serb G I'll give you my quick one and then we'll wrap yeah so just Dave to play off of sharp G and to wrap it up you actually wrote about it on your preview post for here uh serverless we're talking about how developers think about things um and you know Amazon in many ways you know is the new default server uh you know for the cloud um and containerization fits into the whole serverless Paradigm uh it's the space that I live in uh you know every day here and you know I was happy to see the last few years serverless and containers there's a blurring a line and you know subject we're still going to see VMS for a long time yeah yeah we will see that so give us give us your book Instagram my number six is innovation favorite scale that's my bumper sticker and and Amazon has that but also I I want everybody else to like the viewers to take a look at the the Google Cloud as well as well as IBM with others like maybe you have a better price to Performance there for certain workloads and by the way one vendor cannot do it alone we know that for sure the market is so big there's a lot of room for uh Red Hats of the world and and and Microsoft's the world to innovate so keep an eye on them they we need the competition actually and that's why competition Will Keep Us to a place where Market sets the price one vendor doesn't so the only only danger is if if AWS is a monopoly then I will be worried I think ecosystems are the Hallmark of a great Cloud company and Amazon's got the the biggest and baddest ecosystem and I think the other thing to watch for is Industries building on top of the cloud you mentioned the Goldman Sachs NASDAQ Capital One and Warner media these all these industries are building their own clouds and that's where the real money is going to be made in the latter half of the 2020s all right we're a wrap this is Dave Valente I want to first of all thank thanks to our great sponsors AWS for for having us here this is our 10th year at the cube AMD you know sponsoring as well the the the cube here Accenture sponsor to third set upstairs upstairs on the fifth floor all the ecosystem partners that came on the cube this week and supported our mission for free content our content is always free we try to give more to the community and we we take back so go to thecube.net and you'll see all these videos go to siliconangle com for all the news wikibon.com I publish weekly a breaking analysis series I want to thank our amazing crew here you guys we have probably 30 35 people unbelievable our awesome last session John Walls uh Paul Gillen Lisa Martin Savannah Peterson John Furrier who's on a plane we appreciate Andrew and Leonard in our ear and all of our our crew Palo Alto Boston and across the country thank you so much really appreciate it all right we are a wrap AWS re invent 2022 we'll see you in two weeks we'll see you two weeks at Palo Alto ignite back here in Vegas thanks for watching thecube the leader in Enterprise and emerging Tech coverage [Music]

>> Narrator: From theCUBE Studios in Palo Alto in Boston, connecting with thought leaders all around the world, this is theCUBE Conversation. >> Hello everyone, welcome to this special CUBE virtual coverage of AWS Summit 2020 Online. This is the 80th summit that has now moved from a physical event to a digital event, a virtual event, it's all online. Of course theCUBE, normally at the summits, are virtual as well. We have an all day program of CUBE coverage here from our Palo Alto studios with our quarantine crew. Great team, who's been sheltering in place for the past two and a half months as well as our team in Boston with Dave Vellante and Stu Miniman. theCUBE is virtual because we have to be and we are going to be continuing doing more coverage and we're going to continue to do that with all the other big events in the enterprise and emerging tech business. Stu and Dave are going to join me. >> Hey John, good to see you, thank you. >> Stu, we're going to do a segment later on more a breakdown in some of the news and highlights. We got Matt Garman coming on, who's the new vice president of sales and marketing. He ran EC2. He now reports to Andy Jassy he's run the field. We got Sanjay Poonen, the chief operating officer at VMware. Coming on as well. And then we got a customer there. We've got a slew of great guests, Swami, Dave Brown, who now runs EC2. The GM of Analytics. Stu, are you going to do a segment with Corey Quinn? Which should be fun. And Dave, of course, you can do a breaking analysis at the end of the day. And we've got a lot of other great content on theCUBE.net. Check it out. Guys let's just jump into it. AWS is really feeling all the pressure as all these cloud guys are. Everyone's working at home. The cloud is on the front stage of the world in terms of delivering capacity, compute everything else. And now they're got to run a digital event. So pretty crazy times. What you guys think?. Dave what's your thoughts? Stu. >> Do you want me to jump in there? >> Yeah. >> So really impressive watching Werner Vogels. First of all last year I saw him up on stage at the New York City summit. Of course, we've seen him on stage at re:Invent many times. But well produced really looks good. You know, challenging to have that keynote feel when you're sitting at home. But they did a nice job of editing. They put him up on it on a big white space here. But what Werner talked about is the scale of cloud. This is what they've been building for. You never know when you're going to have a Cyber Monday. And I just need to be able to scale. He talked about examples like Netflix more than doubling. How many minutes they're doing and walking through all the ways that Amazon is stepping up. You know something we've been looking at close, Dave has been digging into the analysis here. You know, public cloud is being put under the spotlight right now can they react? And Amazon, to their credit is doing a really good job have not been hearing any challenges. They're not leaving their customers behind. They're having lots of people coming and wanting more. They don't want to get people, yeah. >> I want to dig into that a little bit later on, in terms of uptime and high availability. The table stakes right now in this new virtualized world of living and working at home, competing with life is. What services stay up the most? Which ones are failing? Are the staffing levels there? Are they dealing with the remote workforce? All these things are going to impact the cloud. But ultimately, what we're talking about now is who's really leading this? Dave, you know you and I have been riffing on this around who really has the market share lead and what the numbers are. Clearly, Amazon is winning. The numbers all point that way. And some people even have Microsoft ahead of Amazon, don't know how they get there. But bottom line, Microsoft is catching up. But what is the real lead? What's the market share numbers look like? What are you finding in the research that we're doing? >> Well as you know John, we've been tracking this for a while now. And all three companies, the big three, Amazon, Google and Microsoft just reported it well. We actually have some data on this. Guys, if you can maybe share that with our audience. But we saw this last quarter. The reason why, John, that people some maybe people have Microsoft ahead is because they bundle a lot of the stuff into their intelligent cloud and includes GitHub, Azure stack, hybrid, private cloud services and. Oh, yeah, by the way, Azure. But nonetheless, they give us some clues as to what Azure looked like. So this is our estimate of infrastructure as a service and platform as a service. Both Google and Microsoft sort of hide the ball a little bit on the pure play. Amazon very cleanly provides that guidance. And so you can see here, I guess the key points are like you said, Azure and GCP are growing faster than Amazon. Amazon is much bigger. I would say though, if you go back to 2018, Amazon was well over 2x Azure. 2019 it was just kind of around 2x, you're seeing that now with the trailing twelve months. And this last quarter dipping a little bit below. So you are seeing Azure close that gap. But as I say, the numbers are fuzzy. So you have to do your best to squint through them. I look, I read 10ks till my eyes bleed. So you don't have to. >> Stu, what are you talking hearing in terms of uptime Azure had some fails, Google had some fails. But you starting to see the cloud starting to differentiate. See Google doing much more vertical focus. They're obviously going after retail. It's an easy one. Microsoft with Office 365. Doing well on the enterprise. The numbers are there. What's your thoughts on the reliability and uptime? >> Yes so, John first of all Amazon I'm not hearing any reports of issues there. As you noted, where are Microsoft and Google going after Amazon? Where they can. So retail is an obvious one. The ecosystem how well can they partner with companies? Because the fear of many companies is if I partner with Amazon, are they going to come after my business? So when I looked at the online events, John, I got a sneak peek last night of where the Asia-Pacific region. I kind of logged in as if I was from Australia or New Zealand. >> John: I did that too. >> You know, they have regional partner things set up. So, once again, Amazon, a huge global presence, doing a really good job there. And as Dave showed in the numbers while Azure and Google have much higher growth rates, if you just look at raw numbers, Amazon just adding another Google cloud like every quarter to their revenue. So it is still Amazon in the clear lead out in front. >> You know, I think it's important to point out that these clouds have different capabilities. You know, Microsoft put out a blog just very recently saying that it was going to prioritize some of the essential businesses some of the health care workers and several others that were, quote unquote, essentials. So if you're one of those essential business, they were going to sort of allocate capacity toward you. So they're clearly having some scaling issues and they're somewhat using the COVID-19 pandemic as a bit of a heat shield there. Or by the way, they're prioritizing teams as well for the work from home. So it's caveat emptor there, as I said in my breaking analysis, I mean unless you're one of those sort of priority customers and maybe even if you are, you might want to sort of be careful as to what you're actually running in Azure. At the same time you know, clearly Microsoft's doing well. It's got a lot of spending momentum for its platform. And so that's undeniable. A lot of workloads are kind of good enough. >> Yeah and I think just to put a quick plug, if you're watching this segment now, Dave will do a breaking analysis at three o'clock on our stream here. And of course, it'll be on demand on theCUBE.net as well as YouTube. Guys, I want to get your thoughts on some of the hot spots here. Usually around this time, Amazon comes out and shows a lot of GA, general availability. A lot of stuff they announce that reinvents. So, Kendra is going general availability as well as some other services. But one of the things that was interesting to me, I'll get your thoughts on it, because I held the processor in my hand. Jassi tweeted about yesterday, the new arm, EC2 M6G, which is their graviton two processor. It's like super small. This has really been the competitive Edge for Amazon's performance. The stuff that they're doing now is they're lowering the cost and increasing the performance. That's their Amazon law. That's what they do. So, you got the processor, you got analytics. You start to see these GAs. Can you squint through some of the announcements and try to get a feel for where this is going? How's this machine learning? If I'm an enterprise, I got to make some tough calls right now because I've got to double down on the products that are working that are going to get me through the pandemic. And on a growth trajectory and I've got to get rid of the people in the projects or redeploy them quickly. This is going to impact, positioning and ultimately revenues. >> I mean, I think if you look at the Edge specifically and you think about Arm, I think what Amazon's got right is they're not just throwing traditional data center boxes over the fence to the Edge and say, "Okay, here you go, data center in a box." What they're doing is they're sort of rethinking it and then realizing that you're going to have real time workloads running at the Edge, processing very, you have to be very efficient and very inexpensive. So that's where Arm fits. And I think you're going to have to be able to do the processing at the Edge. Much of the data, if not most of that data, is going to stay at the Edge. And it's not a traditional processing architecture. New architectures are going to emerge. David Florrick calls these things matrix workloads. He's written a lot about it. It's just a whole new way of thinking about computing architectures. And really the Edge is going to be driving that. >> Stu, I want to get your opinion on something. And Dave, you can weigh in too, that'd b great. You know, I was watching a little bit of the Down Under APACS stuff yesterday, Stu as well. And I saw Ben Capps, one of our friends, CUBE alumni and co-host, helps the Saudis live in New Zealand. He brought a couple of interesting things I want to get your thoughts on this. It's more of a community angle. Andy Jass, he's been with Amazon for 23 years. Ben mentioned the cloud rod he's still going back. You know, thinking about cloud was 2008 around that timeframe was only a small cast of characters talking about what was going on. And finally, he mentioned the point about Jass's keynote a Fireside Chat. He mentioned, "One way door decisions versus "two door decisions. "The former cannot be undone hence need to be thought over." So you start to see Jass. Twenty three years of experience, you get the cloud arod kind of ecosystem influencers that are out there that we all know. We've been covering this for that long of time. And you've got this notion of the two way door. You started to connect the dots here and what's going on. You start to see a maturation of AWS. But not only that, the community, the truth is out there and it's interesting to see how this plays out in terms of how they talk about the information as we're all on virtual online. Who are the experts? Who are the YouTubers trying to get a flash in the pan? What's the real story? The data, the misinformation is flying around. There's a ton of that going on, I want to see more of it with virtual. But you've got to experience set in the table with Amazon and the community, your thoughts? >> Yes, so John, absolutely it's about you need to have optionality. We know that things change really fast. 2020 key example of having to react to things that I weren't prepared for. Dave was just talking about Edge computing. What I need to succeed an Edge is very different from how I was attacking clouds before. So is Amazon a walled garden? Everything goes in, Hotel California that it was active for years? Or are they going to be flexible? You know, you see Google and Microsoft really trying to attack Amazon here. Many of us that are proponents of open source have attacked Microsoft, have attacked Amazon for years. They've hired some really good people for Adrian Cockcroft couple years ago, Peder Ulander more recently. They've even hired some people from Red Hat and the Linux Foundation. So getting involved in open source and they've been leading some of the efforts when you talked about Edge. But emerging technologies like Serverless and Edge computing. Is it the Amazon way or everything else? Or will they play in an open ecosystem? Will they allow things to be more flexible? You know, we we've talked for a bunch of years. They really softened on their hybrid stance in 2020. Will Amazon soften on their multi cloud stance, especially if you start burrowing in where Edge fits in this environment? It can't be a one way ladder to everything for public cloud. We know it needs to be a diverse environment. And therefore, you know that net community and ecosystem, you know, wants to play with Amazon but also wants a mature and competitive marketplace. We've all seen what happens when there's a monopoly or duopoly out there. It's not good for innovation. It's not good for the customers long term. >> Dave the reality of the marketplace is changing. Customers are going to be virtualize in their world, literally, physically and digitally. How the work's going to get done is to mention open source ones, probably see a revolution of new applications Cambrian explosion of new kinds of capabilities, new demands, new expectations. There's going to be favor here for the people with the steep learning curve who have those has that trajectory as Amazons, as you know, there's no compression algorithm for experience. This is a real kind of nuance point. It's kind of exposed for the next year. Who's got the juice in the marketplace? Your thoughts? >> Well, Werner Vogels today talked about he said, "There's a shift, a fundamental shift going on, "a sort of early COVID-19. "It's not just about the technology, "but it's about how we access applications, "how we build applications." And Amazon is clearly making some bets and betting on data. We know that. And they are also betting on video because they know that's where a lot of the data comes from. When you talk about who's got experience, I mean, clearly Amazon is seeing a huge demand for video services and we're seeing a giant disruption in content distribution networks. And Amazon, I think, is at the heart of that. So, I mean, it's you know, it's interesting to see him doubling down on that, talking about the whole workflow. So I think in terms of experience, obviously at Amazon, they're going to, that's one of their clear sweet spots. But there are obviously other. >> You know, I've heard the term reinvent many times in the past couple of months, especially during the COVID crisis. And it wasn't in context to the Amazon show. There's a real reinvention going on in the marketplace, in enterprises, in small, medium sized enterprises to every business they have to rethink and reinvent what they're doing to get a growth trajectory. And traditionally, we look at these crisis of 2008. Companies that came out on the upswing became a real master master class, examples of growth and a lot of people who weren't prepared, flatline or dropped off. So we are in this point. Even theCUBE we're are digital, we're virtual. We're rethinking it. We're open to new ideas. There's going to be an experimentation phase at the same time, how do you leverage what's out there? This is going to be an opportunity for the cloud, guys. How do you guys react to all that? >> Well, the last downturn was good for cloud, and still you we've talked about how this one certainly is shaping up to be a tailwind as well for cloud. Cloud is doing better than others. I think Gartner put out a stat today they've seen like a 5x increase in inquiries around cloud. Not surprising companies that previously wouldn't even think about cloud now they really have no choice. >> Guys, we've got to cut it there, we've got to go to Cocky. We had all day with theCUBE. CUBE Virtual AWS Summit Online. Check out they got a big portal. It's complicated. Is a lot of a lot of education going on there. It's the classic Emison Summit. We've got great interviews. Guys we've got a great interview coming up next with Matt Garman, who's the new senior vice president or vice president of sales and marketing. He runs all the field, public sector, both of those areas under massive growth opportunities. So, we're going to hear from him. Thanks for coming on, guys. Really appreciate it. Good to celebrate as well in Boston.. And thanks for the insight. So, we'll be right back with more CUBE coverage after the short break. And Matt Garman up next. (upbeat music)

(upbeat music) >> Announcer: From our studios in the heart of Silicon Valley, Palo Alto, California, this is a CUBE Conversation. >> Hi and welcome to theCUBE Studios for another CUBE Conversation, where we go in-depth with thought leaders driving innovation across the tech industry. I'm your host, Peter Burris. Any business that aspires to be a digital business has to invest in multiple new classes of capabilities required to ensure that their business operates as they're promising to their customers. Now, we've identified a number of these, but one of the things we think is especially important here in theCUBE is data protection, data assurance. If your data is going to be a differentiating asset within your business, you have to take steps to protect it and make sure that it's where it needs to be, when it needs to be there and in the form it's required. Now, a lot of companies talk about data protection, but they kind of diminish it down to just backup. Let's just back up the data, back up the volume. But increasingly, enterprises are recognizing that there's a continuum of services that are required to do a good job of taking care of your data, including disaster recovery. So, what we're going to talk about today is one of the differences between backup and restore, and disaster recovery and why disaster recovery is becoming such an important element of any meaningful and rational digital business strategy. Now, to have that conversation, today we're here with Sazzala Reddy who's the CTO at Datrium. Sazzala, welcome back to theCUBE. >> Happy to be here, Peter. >> So, before we go on this question of disaster recovery and why it's so important, let's start with a quick update on Datrium. Where's Datrium today? You've been through a lot of changes this year. >> Yes, right. We kind of have built a bunch of services as a platform. It will include primary storage, back-up, disaster orchestration and encryption mobility. So that last piece of that puzzle was a DR orchestration, we kind of finished that a few months ago, and that's the update, and also now what we're offering concretely is DR services to the Cloud with the VMware Cloud on Amazon. It is transformational, and people really are adopting it quite heavily with us, because it simplifies, that what you just said about the business continuity, and it gives them a chance to shut down the second data center and leverage the Cloud in a very cost-effective way, to have that option for them. >> So, let's talk about that, because when you think about the Cloud, typically you think about, especially as you start to bring together the Cyber Cloud notion of an on-premise versus a Cloud orientation, you think in terms of an on-premise set of resources and you think in terms of effectively mirroring those resources in the Cloud, and a lot of people have pointed out that that can be an extremely expensive way of doing things. So, historically we had a site, we had a disaster recovery site, maybe we even had a third site, and we had to replicate hardware, we had to replicate networking, we had to replicate software and often a sizeable percentage of staff across all those services, so we've been able to do it more effectively by having the Cloud be the target, but still, having to reserve all that CPU, all that network, seemed like an extremely expensive way of doing things if you only need it, when you need it, and ideally, it's not often. >> That's correct, so, Cloud offers us a new way of doing elastic, on-demand pricing, especially for disaster recovery, it is really useful to think about it that way. In a data center to data center DR like you mentioned, you have to buy all the different products for managing your data, you'll buy primary storage, back-up and de-orchestration, all these different pieces. Then you replicate the same thing somewhere else, all these pieces are kind of just complicated. It's called Murphy's Law, you know, imagine that when there's a disaster, everybody's watching you and you're trying to figure out how this is going to work for you, that's when the challenges are, and there's the danger is that until now, disaster recovery has mostly been a disaster. It's never really worked for anybody. So, what Cloud offers you is an opportunity to simplify that and basically get your disaster recovery to be fail proof. >> Well, so, we have the ongoing expense that we're now ameliorating, we're getting rid of, because we are not forcing anyone to reserve all those resources. >> Yeah. >> But one of the biggest problems in disaster recovery has always been, as you said, it's been a disaster. The actual people processes associated with doing or recovering from a disaster in business continuity sense often fails. So, how does doing it in the Cloud, does it mean we can now do more automation in the Cloud from a disaster recovery stand-point? Tell us a little bit about that. >> There are multiple things, not just that the Cloud offers simplicity in that way, you do have to imagine how are you going to build software to help the customer on their journey. The things, like you mentioned, three things people do in a disaster planning kind of thing, one is that they have to do planning, make all these notes, keep it down somewhere and things change. The moment you make these plans, they're broken because somebody did something else. And second thing is they have to do testing, which is time consuming and they're not sure it's going to work for them, and finally when there's a disaster there's panic, everybody's afraid of it. So, to solve that problem, you need to imagine a new software stack, running in the Cloud, in the most cost-efficient way so you can store your data, you can have all these back-ups there in a steady state and not paying very much. And its three costs are pretty low, if you do dedupe on that it's even lower, so that really brings down the cost of steady-state behavior, but then, when you push the button, you, we can bring up VMware servers on the Amazon Cloud on-demand. So you only pay for the VMware server's computer services when you really need them. And when you don't need them anywhere, you fix your data center, you push a button, you bring all the data back and shut down the VMware servers. So, it's like paying for insurance, after you have an accident. That changes the game. The cost efficiencies of doing DR, it suddenly becomes affordable for everybody, and you can shut down a second data center, cut down the amount of work you have to do, and it gives you an opportunity to actually now have a chance to get that fail proof-ness and actually know it's going to work for you or not going to work for you. >> But you're shutting down the other data center, but you're also not recreating in the Cloud, right? >> Yeah. >> So, you've got the data stored there, but you're not paying for all the resources that are associated with that, you're only spinning them up-- >> That's correct. >> in VM form, when there's actually a problem. But I also want to push this a little bit, it suggests also that if you practice, you said test, I'll use the word practice-- >> I did say that. >> As one of the things you need to do. You need to practice your DR. Presumably if you have more of that automated as part of this cloud experience, then pushing that button, certainly there's going to be some human tasks to be performed, but it increases the likelihood that the recovery process in the business continuity sense is more successfully accomplished, is that right? >> Yeah, correct, there are two things in this DR, one is that, do you know it's going to work for you when you actually have a disaster. That's why you think of doing testing, or the, what did you call it, planning-- >> Practice. >> Practice once in a while. The challenge with that is that why even to practice? Like, it takes time and energy for you to do that. You can do it, no problem, but how can we, with software, transform that in such a way that you get notified when actually something is going to go wrong for you. Because we own primary, back-up and DR, all the three legs of the stool in terms of how the DR should be working, we check continuous compliance checks every half an hour so that we can detect if something is going wrong, you have changed some plans, or you have added some new things, or networking is bad, whatever, we will tell you right away, pro-actively, in half an hour, that hey, there's a problem, should go fix it now. So you don't have to like do that much plan, that much of testing continuously anymore, because we are telling you right now there's a problem. That itself is such a game changer, in the sense that it's pro-active, versus being reactive when you're doing something. >> Yeah, it dramatically increases the likelihood that the actual recovery process itself is successful. >> Sazzala: Yes, right. >> Where if you have a bunch of humans doing it, could be more challenging -- >> Sazzala: More fragile. >> And so, as you said, a lot of the scripts, a lot of that automation is now in the solution and also pro-actively, so if something is no longer in compliance, it does not fit the scheme and the model that you've established within the overall DR framework, then you can alert the business that something is no longer compliance or is out of bounds, fix it so that it stays within the overall DR framework, have I got that right? >> Yes, correct, and you can only do this if you own all the pieces, otherwise, again, it's back to the Murphy's Law, you're testing. So every customer is testing DR in different event typologies, everybody's different, right? So then a customer is not the tester of all these pieces fitting together, and different combinations and permutations. Because we have all the three pieces, we are the ones testing it all the time and everybody testing the same thing, so it's the same software running everywhere that makes the probability of success much higher. >> So it's a great story, Sazzala, but where are you? Where is Datrium today in terms of having these conversations with customers, enacting this, turning this into solutions, changing the way that your customers are doing business? >> Right, we have simplified by converging a lot of services into one platform. That itself is a big deal for a lot of customers, nobody wants to manage stuff anymore, they don't have time and patience. So, we give this platform called DVX on-prem, it runs VMware RCLI, it's super efficient. But the next thing, what we're offering today, which is actually very attractive to our customers is that we give them a path to use the Cloud as a DR site without having to pay the cost of it and also without having to worry about it working for them or not working for them. The demos are super simple to operate because once it all works together, there's no complexity anymore, it's all kind of gone away. >> And, there are a lot of companies, as they mention upfront, that are talking about back-up and restore-- >> Yeah. >> As an approximate to this, but it seems like you've taken it a step further. >> Yeah, so, having been in the business for a while, back-up, yes, back-up can live in the Cloud, you can have long-term back-ups, whatever, but remember that back-up is not DR. If you wanted to have a DR, what DR means is that you're recovering from it, if you have back-up only-- >> Back up's a tier. >> Back-up is a tier. Back-up is that, you have to do rehydration. There's two problems with that. Firstly, rehydration will take you two days, everybody's watching you while the data center is down and businesses wants to be up and running, two days to recover, maybe 22 days. I recently was with a customer, they have a petabyte of data, takes 22 days to do recovery of the data. That's like, okay I don't know what business -- >> 22 days? >> 22 days. And then another 100 days to bring the data back. So that's the problem with back-up as a topic itself. And secondly, they're converting, a lot of those back-up vendors are converting VMs into Amazon VMs, nothing wrong with Amazon, it's just that, suddenly in a disaster, you're used to all your VCenter, you're used to your VMware environment, and now you're learning some new platform? It's going to re-factor your VMs into something else. That is a different disaster waiting to happen for you. >> Well, to the point, you don't want disaster recovery in three years when you figure it all out, you want disaster recovery now-- >> Now. >> With what you have now. >> That's correct, that's exactly right. So those conversions of VMs leads to a path of, it's a one-way migration, there's no path out of that, it's like Hotel California, you're getting in, not coming out. It may be good for Amazon, but the customers want to solve a problem, which is a DR problem. So by working with VM via Cloud, they have been very friendly with us, we're super good partners with them and they've enabled us access to some of the things there to enable us to be able to work with them, use their APIs and launch VMware servers on-demand. That to me, is a game changer, and that's why it's such a highly interesting topic for a lot of customers. We see a lot of success with it, we're leading with it now, a lot of people just dying to get away from this DR problem, and have business continuity for their business, and what we're giving them is the simplicity of one product, one bill, and one support call. You can call us for anything, including Amazon, VMware and Datrium, all the pieces and we'll answer all the questions. >> Now I really like the idea, and you pay for it only as, or after the disaster has been recovered from. >> It's like paying for insurance after the-- >> I like that a lot. All right, Sazzala Reddy, CTO of Datrium, once again thanks for being on theCUBE. >> Oh, thank you very much for having me. >> And thank you for joining us for another CUBE Conversation. I'm Peter Burris, see you next time. (lively brass band music)

>> Announcer: Live from Chicago, Illinois, it's theCUBE, covering VEEAMON 2018. Brought to you by Veeam. >> Welcome back to VEEAMON 2018 in Chicago, everybody. You're watching theCUBE, the leader in live tech coverage. My name is Dave Vellante. I'm here with my cohost, Stu Miniman. Karl Rautenstrauch is here, Karl Rautenstrauch, Senior Program Manager for Azure Storage at Microsoft. Karl, thanks for coming on. >> It's a pleasure, guys. Thank you for having me. >> You've got a beautiful picture of your family. You got three boys at home, is that right? >> Karl: Three boys. >> Alright. >> They keep me out of trouble. They get into it, they keep me out of it. >> I'm one of three boys. My mom, you know, kept us going. You must have a strong woman at home. >> She is a saint. >> At any rate, thanks for coming on. We love talking Microsoft Azure, Cloud and storage. Let's start with your role. >> Karl: Sure. What do you have? >> What do you do at Microsoft? >> Absolutely. So for the last year I've been program manager with the storage team, and I've kind of a unique role. Usually you see program managers who focus on features, right? You are championing a new feature in your service, your platform. For me, I get to work with our partner ecosystem. So I spend a lot of time with our great partners, like Veeam, and our channel partners, like SHI, CDW, Softchoice, Insight. I'll tell you, I've got the best job in the business. I can't complain. I get to work with great, smart people everyday. >> So is your role transferring knowledge to those partners, assisting those partners, acting as a catalyst, gathering information from them and feeding it back to the product teams? >> Yeah, really all of the above. Helping to make sure that we've got a combined solution, an end-to-end solution, that's the best thing for our customers. So everything from upfront assessment through implementation through health check afterwards, our goal is to have the happiest customers in the public Cloud, and we can't do that without our partners. >> How should we think about the Azure Storage portfolio? Can you paint a picture for us? >> Oh boy, it has grown drastically just in the last couple of months. So not only do we have our first party offerings in the disk, traditional VM disk as we all know it, you're going to attach to a server, we have hosted file infrastructures where we provide file shares that don't require a server to manage, our partnership with NetApp where we are going to be operating NetApp systems in our data centers and offering their native services. And we just continue to expand with big data solutions, with Avere, our new acquisition, that is really aimed at high performance compute environments like we see in genomics and media and entertainment. It's just a portfolio that continues to grow. We all joke that storage is boring, right? Nobody cares about storage, but honestly, it's one of the most interesting and fastest growing and evolving platforms in Azure. >> We joke, sometimes we call it snore-age, but Stu and I are kind of boring people, so we love talking about it. >> I like that. >> So you got file, you got object, you got block, you got big data solutions, you got high performance file solutions. Okay, like you say, this expanding portfolio. >> Karl, I look back at my career and Microsoft's had a long partnership, not only on the compute side, but really on the storage side, maybe isn't as well known as shipping on every PC and server out there. Lot has changed, when you talk about Azure and Azure Stack coming out. Maybe explain a little bit, I believe you called it the first party versus the second party. How that Microsoft does it versus Microsoft partners, how those mesh together. >> Yeah, absolutely. Well I'll tell you. So I joined the company about five years ago, and I've been on the storage team for the last year. I was a field specialist, a subject matter expert, before that working very, very closely with customers. And what I love that I've seen over this period through the Satya Nadella era, is just this open Microsoft that says, we don't have to do everything. We don't have to try to provide everything to the customer. We really believe in, and I think we just diffuse that best of breed attitude going forward. Our partners feel that. Whether we're working with Veeam in Azure Public Cloud as a target, or them offering protection of VMs in public cloud, which is necessary by the way. I think that's a huge fallacy in the industry, that you place your app, you place your machine in a public cloud, and it's magically protected by pixies. It's not. >> Backup and security aren't a concern, wherever you put it, right? >> Absolutely, wherever they are. So we rely on our partners like Veeam to provide that. And really where Azure Stack comes in, is providing that consistent experience, not just to our customers, but also to out partners. So Veeam is able to protect Azure Public assets, in the same manner they're able to protect Azure Private, for Azure Stack resources. So really it's just offering customers choice to use best of breed solutions, and allowing our partners to have an easy means to support both on-premises and public Cloud. >> So it's like a service catalog that you guys offer, and then you advise customers or they pick and choose what they want? How's that all work? >> Yeah, so really what we do, and that's a great way to put it. We have what we call the Azure Marketplace that's present in the Azure Public Cloud, and we extend that to Azure Stack. So if I'm a customer who wants to deploy Veeam, per se, in either infrastructure, I go to this catalog of apps. I mean it literally is a catalog of apps. Search for Veeam, there it is, and I can single click deploy in either Azure Stack or Azure Public. >> Microsoft is unique in the sense of its hybrid strategy, in terms of what you have in the cloud you have on-prem. You're trying to, wherever possible, make it identical. >> Karl: Absolutely. >> Microsoft and Oracle are really the only two companies that have a stated strategy to do that. Let's talk about Microsoft in terms of where you're at, in terms of getting that substantially similar capability in on-prem and in the public Cloud. >> Yeah, absolutely. That's a great, great topic to discuss. Azure Stack, I always like to tell folks, full disclosure, and we don't try to hide this at all, that's not who we are, but it will always lag a little bit behind Azure Public. When you think about the controls in customers' data centers for rolling out code updates and new versions of software, new capabilities, there's always an adoption curve. You have folks who are a little more hesitant to release quickly and adopt quickly. So Azure Stack offers them the capability to defer some of those updates for a period of time. So there will be a lag. We have to qualify for multiple vendor platforms, we've chosen to go to market in a hyperconverged model with our partners, like Dell EMC, HP, Lenovo and Cisco. Whereas Azure Public, that's a completely controlled infrastructure, and we're able to deploy very quickly. And we do; we're constantly iterating and releasing new features. So I think that's the biggest difference between the two. >> So Karl, you give a session here at the show called Migrating to Azure. That whole move is pretty challenging. >> Karl: Oh yes. Am I lift and shifting? Am I transforming? Am I building new? What are you hearing from customers? And give our audience a taste of some of the key takeaways that you were talking about. >> Yeah, absolutely. So that's one of the biggest concerns that we've had over the last couple of years. I said earlier, we want the happiest customers in Public Cloud, and no Cloud regret or remorse. So what we talked about in our session was a tool that we released recently called Azure Migrate, that is all about assessing and setting expectations for customers around what can and cannot migrate, how much it will cost to run that infrastructure in Public Cloud, either as is or optimized, and then suggestions for optimizing their infrastructure to get the best bang for their buck. So there are great opportunities to save cost when platforms are adopted, like Azure sql, platform as a service offerings. When I've got that time-sharing concept, when I take away maintenance activities around operating systems and software releases, there are significant cost savings versus a lift and shift, which can quite honestly be more expensive than what that customer is doing on-premises today. So Azure Migrate is meant to help customers avoid that, no regrets. >> I wonder what you're hearing from customers cuz there's some concern. Maybe I should just do infrastructure as a service. Cuz if I get into those platform as a service, am I locked in? Microsoft is used for lots of business scribble applications. I see Microsoft strongly in the Kubernetes ecosystem, getting into the functions as a service, which those things are trying to give me a little bit more portability and flexibility. Maybe discuss some of that. >> Yeah, that's great, and I'm glad you brought that back around. So there is always that concern about the Cloud Hotel California, right? And that said, I like to half jokingly refer to it as you get in, you can never leave. And there is that jeopardy with any provider. That if you're using some proprietary platform that you can be locked-in, and really we try to promote the use of containers extensively with those customers who have that concern. And even with our hosted analytics and hosted database infrastructures, we make sure to provide those portable cross-Cloud platforms, like Postgres, MySQL. Our analytics is all Ubuntu based. Really we don't want that lock-in to be there, we don't want that to be a concern. So continuing support for open platforms and ecosystems is really something we're committed to. >> The lock-in, openness choice, it's a spectrum. I've been in this business for a long time, and Unix used to be the open system. And then today, you can't get more locked-in then a Unix platform. So I feel as though, and I wonder if you guys can comment, the Cloud has transparent pricing and transparent billing. And so lock-in is if I have a customer and they're trying to move and they're up for a contract renewal or something or a maintenance, I'm going to jack their maintenance. But you can't just do that across the board, if you have transparent billing. So there's the pricing aspect. There's certainly a lock-in with the processes and procedures that you choose, but no matter what you choose, whether it's open source, a Cloud provider like Amazon, an on-prem provider like the many that we know out there, you're going to be locked-in to your processes and procedures. So it's a matter of degree. I personally see it, because of the Cloud, as a lot less onerous than it used to be. Do you guys agree with that? >> I mean Dave, it's that application is the long pole in the tent for ones I see. What I've been using and if I go to something new, if I go build this new architecture, Cloud Nader or whatever, that's a pretty big bet. So depending on how deep and tied that is to a specific platform, even if I'm choosing a database, migrating databases aren't easy. >> But that's the issue. It's the bet that you're making. It's more so than the lock-in because lock-in, you're going to be locked in to whatever bet you make, so you've got to make the right bet. To me, it's a way for consultants to act like an advocate for the customer. What's more important in my view, is negotiation strategies, how you place that bet, how you architect your Cloud strategy. >> And I mean Dave, just quickly, I remember four years ago you and I interviewed Brad Anderson with Microsoft, and we were poking him on licensing. I don't hear that discussion about Microsoft as much, of course we always want it cheaper, and everything like that, but Microsoft's done a great job. In the Cloud communities, they're known as participating in those communities, and giving customers- >> Well that's our take, what's your take? >> No, I love it. And I think what I'm seeing is customers are hedging their bets. So you do, and it is a bet. You do have to not go all in with somebody, with any Cloud provider, but you got to put your chips with some proprietary platforms. And what I'm seeing is that multi-Cloud that we're all talking about is really becoming the reality. I can think of very few customers that I've worked with who have had Azure as their single public Cloud. And really that's how they avoid that z-series down the road, right? Where you're locked-in, you got one provider that platform. They're saying, look, I'm going to deploy on the best service in the best public Cloud for that application instance, as Stu mentioned. That's happening. >> Horses for courses, as they say in England. >> Karl: There you go. >> So we're here at VEEAMON. Your relationship with Veeam, they've obviously partnered up with you guys in a big way. Your thoughts on the partnership? >> Yeah, love working with these guys. I'm very fortunate in that I get to work with some of the best that we have, and everything from the relationship that we have on a marketing level, an engineering level, a field level, they're really ingrained in our ecosystem at all levels. Just a very, very easy partner to work with, very responsive to their customer needs. And that's what we look for. We want to work with the partners that customers love. So I'm just thrilled to be part of this relationship. >> Karl, thanks so much for coming on theCUBE. I think you embody the new open Microsoft, and you guys are making great progress. Congratulations and thanks so much for coming on. >> Thank you Dave, it was a pleasure. Stu, thank you very much. >> Alright, keep it right there everybody. We'll be back with our next guest. VEEAMON live from Chicago, you're watching theCUBE. (upbeat music)

>> Narrator: Live from Las Vegas. It's the Cube! Covering VMWorld 2017. Brought to you by VMware and it's ecosystem partners. >> Welcome back everyone. Live in Las Vegas we are here in the VMware Village, VM Village. We're kicking off day two or ending day two wrap up here. It's the Cube, I'm John Furrier with Dave Vellante with our wrap up guests Peter Burris, head of research at Wikibon.com and Stu Miniman co-host of the Cube and analyst of Wikibon. Guys, great day two in the books. Another day tomorrow, another wall-to-wall coverage. Events tonight tonight stacked up, last night great hallway conversation. We covered that on our intro this morning. Day two was about Michael Dell, Pat Gelsinger conversation. A lot of announcements with Google crashing the party, and a one-on-one exclusive with Sam Ramjay who's VP at Product Management, head of Developer Platforms. Not just Google Cloud, they're brinhing all the developers to bear. Peter this telegraphs your point about Google not to be taken lightly. >> Oh yeah well look. We talked about this earlier, and there are some very real thing that have yet to happen. Just contrast this. Three years or two years ago, if you talked to the Google enterprise group and you said to them, well you have some really great opportunities. What are you going to do with them? They'd say, whatever the consumer guys give us, we'll repackage. And now if you see what Google is doing, they're actually going out and creating new partnerships, creating new technology. They're actually acting like a real enterprise company. It's a transformation that's happening very fast. My guess is there's an enormous amount of stuff that's going underneath the covers at the new Google campus. But it's interesting to see that company become a really enterprise player before our eyes, and it's going to be a consequential player. >> Stu and Dave I want to get your reaction to something, because we saw an observation this morning Peter, I think you started out by saying the whole world's upside down, a whole new way to engage the enterprise. You mentioned VMware transforming as a company, similar to what IBM did many years ago. But we saw Michael Dell here, we heard Sanjay Poonen the COO come on, talking about how they're collaborating. He even made reference to Vmware almost merging with-- Kind of hinting to that where there would be showing up at their show working together closely. A new kind of relationship is building on how to be competitive, yet Google and Microsoft have to kind of catch up. And the question on the table is is there dis-economies of scale in that? Can Google get the enterprise IQ to truly understand the digital transformation and bring that developer communication and that operational scale of Google, and can Microsoft bring that enterprise knowledge of Office, Windows, et cetera to the cloud, at the speed of the disruption, at the same time change how they engage? Stu. >> Yeah, so John it's pretty typical we talk about how when some of these technologies started, it's like oh wait no, they're not ready, don't look at them. Public cloud you know was a dirty word at VMware a couple of years ago. Now we're embracing it. I'm sure you talked about Michael Dell. He's a big partner of Microsoft's. They're going to be doing Azure Stack. The Amazon dynamic is amazing. John last year we said to Pat Kelsner, hey Pat you want to come on the Cube at Reinvent? He's like, oh, you're inviting me? Well we had Sanjen Poonen on at that show. I've mentioned it, I was at the AWS Summit in New York City. VMware was a partner presenting there. People are interested to look at it. How this bakes out. There was you know an interesting thing. A tweet went out from Kelsey Hightower. A lot of people in the open source community was like, you know one technology killing the other, and we always said, you know, VM's going to kill Bare Metal and containers will kill that, and server-less will kill that. And it's a joke of course, because nothing ever dies in IT, it's all additive. >> Man: The Hotel California. >> It's you know, we'll talk to IBM and talk about their Z customers that are running mainframe. Oh and you can run Linux and containers on that too. So IT is a complex world. We're all going to have to kind of live in this space. Heck, so many of our guests that we have on this program, we're interviewing them at the second or third or more company that they've been at. So it's the ebbs and flows of the people and the technology, and it's fun to document. >> Well the question is, is it a zero sum game? I've talked to a number of service providers, some of the 4,400. I haven't talked to the 4,400, but a handful. And they're frankly not happy about the AWS deal. Because they're all trying to compete against AWS, and they're just saying, their narrative is, oh, it's a big straw that's just going to suck everything out. But the question is, is it a zero sum game, or-- I mean datacenters booming, enterprise is booming. Is this one of those boom years that everybody benefits? >> Just note on that. VMware got out of VCloud Air. That actually made those 4,400 happier, because now VMware is no longer a threat as well as a partner-- >> However! >> The Amazon stuff and the Google stuff is bringing back-- >> Yeah they never liked VCloud Air, and yes getting out is a good thing. And then next day, boom. >> To me, the other part of the answer is, does a knowledge of the enterprise and how the legacy and traditional applications matter? And the reality is to Stu's point, since you can check in but you can never leave, that at the end of the day, it's going to matter. Your knowledge of how transaction processing works is going to matter. Your knowledge of how Z series handles storage or handles data is going to matter, in the enterprise. And so the reality is, it's not a zero sum game, there's going to be a lot of, because of the complexity, there's going to be an enormous premium place in experience. How you package that experience, how you present it, there's going to be a lot of niches in this marketplace. A lot of ways of getting to that scale. But there's no question that's what most important is getting there fast and early. >> And the big three, obviously Amazon Microsoft Google, all bring something different to the table. And the question is, what view of the cloud do they bring? VMware taps out of the cloud game with VCloud Air, has an arms dealer-like approach Dave. We talk a lot about being an arms dealer. You know Sanjay was teasing out like, you can have these native clouds, not cloud native. Native cloud players, one two and three, sucking the straw at the top of the power law. But then VMware could service an entire set of new clouds. I call maybe second tier or secondary native clouds, where hey someone's got-- Jeff Rick and I were talking about a drone farming cloud. With drones that have applications for farms. >> There's going to be specialization. >> That speaks to a new set of service providers. And the question is, is the cloud service provider market about to explode? What do you think? >> Explode? >> Meaning great, grow, big. Does that long tail fatten out the neck and the torso? >> Yeah. Because at the end of the day, at the end of the day, where you are located matters. Your ability to bring together classes of services is going to matter, and being able to enfranchise and federate all those things is going to matter. And if it is truly cloud, if it's a common cloud experience, the cost to customer of getting into that is going to be relatively low. And so what you're really testing is, is the cost of getting into a specialized cloud going to be more or less than the cost of going with a general cloud and start adding things? And there's going to be a lot of opportunity to serve particular classes of companies by different characteristics. Let me draw an analogy for you. That we talk about-- I'm going to get political for a second. But we talk about partisanship in the US, right? And many years ago people said, oh, the internet is going to democratize everything, and it's going to be this wonderful-- Well that really happened is the internet made it possible for media companies to enfranchise audiences independent of geography. And now we've got highly specialized media sources that are all retaining to a particular audience. Why wouldn't we expect, since software is effectively media, why wouldn't we expect to see the same exact economics and dynamic happen for some of these specialized audiences? >> John: Make software great again! That's my motto. (laughing) >> To that point, service has always been a highly fragmented and highly specialized market. Cloud is services, and I would expect yes, to answer your question, that you're going to see a lot more service providers explode. But they better have a differentiation strategy relative to AWS. >> So the Tam conversation around that is cool, but what's really happening here that was getting a lot of traction, and we talked about this earlier about the two private cloud report. I asked Sanjay Poonen and then I talked to Sam Ramjay at Google who heads up the development platform in Project Management. You know to your quote this morning, a lot of IT's been driving costs out of business, now we're putting revenue on their agenda. He goes, really? And I asked him, what's your metric for success at Google? And he started to think about it and went back to the business value of technology. So I know this is a research area for you. I want to give you a chance to describe, what's the cutting edge metric around the business value of technology? Because in the cloud, magic quadrants don't matter, okay? The scoreboards are changing. At the end of the day it's what value does technology contribute to business that drives top line revenue? Yeah cost containment I get that, but revenue. >> Well so the traditional way of thinking about ROI or business returns or business value is you say I'm going to say for a given application, for ERP, which is the numerator, which is the benefit, so that's why I classify it. Now I'm going to look at the denominator. Which of the different configurations of technologies make that given set of systems have the highest return? And it all becomes a cost question. So really where this goes is that increasingly what businesses are looking at are saying, my customers are demanding digital engagement. My partners are demanding digital engagement. I'm going to use my data differently. I'm going to turn products into services, I'm going to do all these different things with data. That's where the revenue side comes into play. Now can you argue that it all comes back to costs and automation? Yeah, there's things you can do. But at the end of the day the question is, what does your customer see? Does your customer see a better service or a better capability? A different approach of doing things? That is the non-standard numerator in the equation, and that's where IT is, with the business, is increasingly focusing it's attention. And so increasingly what's happening is we're looking at a common denominator, you know Amazon's pricing and Google's pricing and all these other guys' pricing is going to moderate to a set of common metrics, and that means now we can start talking about the numerator, and how doing the numerator differently is going to be the differential. >> Okay so let's take that and take it to Stu and Dave. I did a comment on, we heard this race to the bottom, race to zero, that's not happening. Your True Private Cloud report shows that the SaaS business and True Private Cloud just by itself is bigger than-- >> And we never believed that. We've never bought into that. >> And you know, it's funny, in some of the analyst sessions you get to talk to some of the customers and talking to some of my peers here, something we hear from a lot of companies, not all of them, but cost isn't number one on the list. Usually it's a agility, it's entering the business, it's being able to move faster. Cost and price of course does matter eventually, but you know it's that being able to react faster, that agility that needs to go there. And I mean there's all of these new technologies that are going to line up. Heck, we're spending all of this time talking about public and private cloud, and edge computing is just going to completely change that landscape even more, as we go forward. >> Look, and the other thing is, Amazon sets a pretty high price umbrella. I've never bought into the race to the bottom, I've always said Amazon's going to be more profitable than everybody. They're an infrastructure company with 30% operating margins which is like a software company! I mean that's basically VMware's operating margin. Maybe VMware's a little higher. And of course Amazon has a much higher capital cost. But there's a big price umbrella that Amazon has created. That's an awesome opportunity. I'm interested in what you guys think about the recent momentum behind VMware. The last two years we've seen a total change, right? Two years ago it was kind of negative, negative growth. And now it's tailwinds, positive momentum. Is this a product cycle, is it you know expanded ELAs? Kind of a one time thing? Or do we think this is a sustainable trend? I mean I've said I think the stock is undervalue. Am I right, is this sustainable? >> I think you're right. To me my observation is, I'll let you guys comment on it, but my observation is VMware was stuck in the middle of an identity crisis between the virtualization op side and trying to do cloud. And you nailed it on the earlier intro segment where you said that there's no cap X there, they've got better margins because of it. And by making a decision on not doing cloud and becoming much more of an arms dealer, you can move the ops into the dev, right? And that's been a big stuck in the mud point from VMware. They've got great ops, great enterprise, but they just weren't nailing the developer side. And that became a problem. Now you have clarity on the wave. Cloud IOT just pointed out, now it's very clear what's going on, and everyone knows where the game is. Then the shift is going to come to, and it's whether Kubernetes announcement with Google today didn't get them a lot of applause in my opinion, Stu I'd love to get your reaction. I don't think this audience can connect the dots yet on that long play of the orchestration. So they're still stuck in I got my house to clean up, I don't want to get the fluff and the head room and the future vision. I got problems to deal with on my upside. Yeah I want to do dev and I want to do dev ops, but shit I got to take care of business! >> Yeah so to Dave's question, VMware had reached a certain point, they'd kind of saturated the market for server virtualization. They made a number of number of bets. Some of them panned out. Airwatch, great acquisition. NICERA, phenomenal acquisition. NSX, we've talked extensively about that. Push towards the developer community? Well, I think they've understood now. Pivotal's going to handle that. We'll shove that over here. There's not a developer track at this show anymore. The cloud piece, they fumbled it, a few times, and now they've kind of understood it. Kind of a natural progression. They've made some moves. The ELA is something I think they've sorted out. Their license agreement, how have the partnerships with customers. We've talked extensively about some of the pricing. >> Some of the deck chairs, the mulligan on Virtustream. Carry on, please. >> So right, it's where they fit, where they partner. The relationship with the ecosystem. And a thing, what drove VMware to where they are, is those partnerships and the technology partnerships as well as the channel partnerships. Some of those things I hear, Kubernetes AWS, VMware on AWS, their partners are like, it's scary. I don't know if I make any money. Is this now VMware and Amazon just go to the bank and they cut me out of the whole thing? Some of these are interesting, right. Most people aren't ready for the container, they're definitely not ready. Kubernetes, they hear about it, but it's pretty early. >> Peter your reaction, 'cause this really points to what Stu's saying. I believe what's saying to be true, because I agree. They did their homework, they were listening. They weren't sticking their heads in the sand at your transformation point. >> So if you're a CIO and you're looking at a whole bunch of change, my business' stance towards digital and technology is changing, my relationships with the business are changing. I now foresee that I'm going to have to reorganize my IT organization to take advantage of things like hyper converge and whatnot. So I'm looking at an enormous transformation. In comes VMware and the first thing out of their mouth is, we really don't know what we're doing. We're throwing a bunch of spaghetti against a wall. Would help you sustain these assets until we figure this all out? The CIO's going to say thank you very much, where's Microsoft? So what's happened is VMware decided to get serious and stable. They decided to make some bets, and a lot of the best that we're making right now we're seeing at the show are probably not going to pan out. But that's okay, because it starts-- >> John: But the big ones are, maybe. >> We think so, we think so. We think anesthetics as well. Stu listed them, we don't have to go over them again. But what we are seeing is-- And Michael Dell and Pat and all the executives over and over. >> They're paying attention. >> Open with an opinion. It's very clear that businesses like the VMware opinion. I think Stu and I and all of us probably agree that they could probably go further with that opinion, they could probably lay out an even better vision of what the cloud experience is going to be as they foresee it and as they're going to engineer to it. But it's very very clear that customers today are saying, I've got all this installed, I'm willing to continue to invest in caretaking all this VMware stuff because they have done a better job of laying out what my options are, whereas a few years ago the options were all over the map, which means they had no options. >> They were groping for something. Okay we've got to wrap it up. I wanted to go around the horn on the final piece. We're going to go out tonight, we're going to party. We're going to socialize, stay up all night long, talking to people getting the data. Not all night, we'll be in bed by 11. (laughs) I'll be in bed by 11, I hope, I hope. Great conversations last night, lot of hallway conversations. Lot of good chatter. So around the horn, most compelling thing that you heard, not in a session, in the hallway, through conversations and interactions. Peter we'll start with you. >> Most compelling thing that I heard is, is there's some new stuff coming in the Google universe. That is going to potentially have a pretty significant impact ultimately on how enterprises look at Google. I found out some interesting stuff there. The most compelling thing just very simply on the VMware side of things was the probably coming out of some of the conversations we had with Chad this morning Dave. And the idea that increasingly you're going to look at these platforms. Platform wars are on the horizon. Where it's going to go back to what we were looking at many years ago in certain respects. But you know written much larger. But the increasingly the way people are going to evaluate the quality of a platform is not intrinsic to the platform, but how well it binds to other platforms. That's probably the most important statement that I heard on the floor today over what's happening. >> John: Stu. >> Continue on kind of Peter's theme. We're starting to see really you know, it's gelling. Some of this multi-cloud messaging, been really teasing out with a lot of people. Once again when I get to talk to the practitioners, as to what applications are they building, where do things go, how are they moving around, and you know VMware is a trusted partner, one they've really turned to for a lot of this. And the customers at least are optimistic about what they're hearing. I've heard a bunch of them are really excited for the VMware and AWS more than I expected to hear, and you know it'll be interesting to see. It's been interesting, we've kind of been saying Microsoft maybe there. When we go to Dell EMC World they're talking a lot about Microsoft. Microsoft Ignite's coming up, there will be a huge push. We've said for years, who has the best hybrid strategy? It's got to be Microsoft, hands down. >> Although we haven't mentioned Oracle. Oracle is still not out of this. >> Yeah, absolutely. I always say follow the applications, follow the data. Oracle, Microsoft, huge application portfolio. >> You know I haven't heard one person talk about Microsoft or Oracle here, not one. Dave? >> I want to chime in. >> I've spent the last 24 hours, I've talked to a number of customers. And I will tell you, they're strugglin' to move fast. And that's I think good news for VMware and Dell EMC, because you know all the vision that's put forth, and all this cloud native stuff, and they're really having a hard time digesting a lot of this stuff. You've been saying it for a while, hybrid cloud is BS, nobody's doing hybrid cloud, as it's sort of been defined in early days. Like federated apps, nobody's even thinking about it, not even close. Yeah multi-cloud because I'm getting inundated with all these clouds. So they're really having a hard time moving. So I think that's a good trend. >> Dave, I heard a great line in this. VMware is moving at the speed of the CIO. >> Yeah, it's true. >> That's a great line. >> That's a kind of double-edged comment, but you know absolutely. You want to stay at least up with most of your customers. >> I will say, I said hybrid cloud is BS. I did say it mainly because it's not ready for prime time in my opinion, but. >> Stu: Is it a way station, John? >> Yeah it's a halfway house or it's a way station, whatever you want to call it. >> It's a cul-de-sac! (laughing) >> Sanjay used that line today. Okay my final observation is more of kind of an epiphany from me that kind of wasn't really blind spot but it was an awakening. The customers I've been talking to are really struggling with the merging of multiple stacks. Hardware and software. In new use cases that have been untested and undocumented, and that's causing to the speed of the CIO conversation of, wait a minute we can't just deploy some of this stuff at scale until we do our homework. We've got to get the hardware stacks and the software stacks working together. We've heard it a lot, that's been the number one hallway conversation. That means there's a lot more work to do on that front. Well guys-- >> But it's a working together part. It's that how they bind together. >> It's these new use cases of working together. This is not a software vendor and a hardware vendor, it's all going to be a data vendor at the end of the day! And we'll see who can bring the stacks together. Okay Pat Gelsigner, we had Michael Del, Sanjay Poonen. Great day guys, great stuff. Let's go hit the hallway, go hit some of these parties and get more data for you guys. Thanks for watching the Cube, live in Las Vegas. Wrap of day two here. I'm John Furrier, Dave Vellante, Peter Burris and Stu Miniman. This is the Cube, thanks for watching.