(funky music) >> Hi, and welcome to this CUBE conversation from theCUBE Studios in Paulo Alto, California. I'm your host, Sonia Tagare, and today we're joined by Leigh Phillips, president and CEO of SaverLife. Leigh, welcome to theCUBE. >> Hi, thanks so much for having me. >> Absolutely. So, tell us more about SaverLife and how it works. >> So, SaverLife is a non-profit organization. We work nationally, but we're based here in San Francisco, and our mission is to help working American families to save money, and to invest in themselves and their futures. So, we do that by making it engaging, rewarding, and fun for people to start saving, and leveraging financial technology to achieve scale. >> And you were previously known as EARN, so what spurred this change in branding? >> Well, it was more than a change in branding. It was actually a big shift towards technology. So, EARN, or, now known as SaverLife, has actually been around since 2001. So, we are not new, we're not a starter, we've been helping low to moderate income working families to save money for a long time. But what we've realized in recent years is that the size of the problem is really quite significant. So, about half of American families don't have $400. So they couldn't cover a $400 expense without having to borrow the money. As EARN, we were helping a lot of families here in the Bay Area, but maybe, you know, a thousand families a year at our peak, and when you have half of America that's financially insecure, we knew that the solution that we had wasn't big enough. So, a couple of years ago, the organization decided to make a pivot, and to make a pivot towards technology. I came onboard about four and a half years ago to lead that transition, and we launched SaverLife as a product, and we reached a quarter of a million people in a couple years, and decided that the people know best, and that we would rebrand the whole organization as SaverLife. So that's kind of how that came about. >> That's awesome. >> Yeah. >> So who is SaverLife specifically targeting, and are there any specific challenges with this target group? >> So, SaverLife is specifically targeting working American families, mostly low income families, so as I mentioned, financial insecurity is a really big problem here in the US, and so we hear about that a lot in the news, about income inequality, wealth inequality, but one of the most troubling statistics came out from the Federal Reserve Bank, they found that about 42% of American families couldn't cover a $400 expense without going into debt. And that's an issue that affects lots of people in different ways. So, SaverLife is really targeting low income people who are struggling to save money, and need a little help getting started with that. So, most of our clients are women, they're all across the United States and on average make about 25 thousand dollars a year or less. >> So let's talk about the current savings crisis in America. According to Bankry, 20% of Americans don't have emergency savings, and only 18% of Americans can live off their savings for only six months. So, tell us more about this crisis, and what do you think the underlying issue is? >> Yeah, it's a great question, and there are many issues that play into that, and most of them are systemic, you know. The way that people are making money and the gap between income and expenses. So, what we see is that larger numbers of people don't have basic emergency savings, and what that means is that you can't get through a financial emergency, right? And so that can have a real downward spiral effect on your life. So imagine a scenario where you have to miss a day or two of work because your child is sick, and you don't have sick leave, like a lot of people don't. And so you miss a couple days of income. Or, you get a flat tire, or a parking ticket. Those are the types of things that can really spiral out of control, so then you lose income, then you can't pay your rent, you're at risk of eviction, and all of these other problems. So what we know is that having relatively small amount of money, so even just 250 to $750 in savings is found to reduce those risks of things like eviction, or falling behind on bills or utilities really significantly. So, we're focused on getting people to that point, so that they can get through challenges. So one of the big things that we see in our population, isn't just that wages are low, which remains a really big problem in the US right now, but that income is really inconsistent. So if you're making an hourly wage job, or maybe you work in retail, or you work in a warehouse, or something like that, and you drive for Uber, whatever the case may be, your money that's coming in, you're not getting the same amount of money in your paycheck every two weeks, right? Like many of us do. And in fact, for SaverLife clients, we're seeing these swings of income of around a thousand dollars a month, month over month. So sometimes you earn more and sometimes you earn less. So in that scenario, it's really hard to stay on track towards saving, because you don't know how much money's coming in, and then you're getting hit with all these increasing expenses at the same time. >> Right. And, can you tell us a little bit about how people can save their way to financial independence, is it viable, and how have challenges changed since the disappearance of defined-benefit retirement packages? >> Yeah, so, it is possible, but it's challenging, and, you know, I do think that we need to be aware of those kind of bigger issues, right? And to focus on helping people have more consistency in their income, and reducing some of those large expenses, whether or not in, the very obviously, the cost of housing, medical care, child care, transportation, all of these things that are really holding families back. But, you know, the good news is that people are remarkable. People are resilient, and people are remarkable. And I can share a couple of stories with you about that. So, at SaverLife we encourage people to save with prizes and cash rewards, right? So we make it really easy for people to get started. We also have a really supportive online community, so this is an issue that affects half of us, right? It's not something that people should be ashamed of. This is a really big and endemic issue here in the US. So we don't judge people, you know, it's all about starting small and starting today. So what we do at SaverLife is encourage people to save what they can when they can, and then we use behavioral economics to design programmatic interventions, so features on the website, that encourage people to save. So you can save five bucks a week if that's what works for you, and then you have the chance to win prizes. We also do a tax time quest, so that's happening right now. So, tax season is one of the times when people will get a larger infusion of cash, right? Particularly low income people, who maybe are qualified for tax credits and other benefits. So, what we do is encourage people to save a portion of that refund. So we ask people to start thinking about it before they get the refund, right? That's really clear, cause once the money is in, it's usually already spent. So we start talking to people in December, why don't you pledge to save your refund? You can win prizes just for pledging. And what we've found is that getting people to think about and commit to savings resulted, last year, in 80% of those people actually putting money into savings, and saving on average 16 hundred dollars from their tax refunds. >> Sonia: Wow. That's incredible. I love how you're incentivizing this whole savings thing, because, like, that essentially just makes people want to do it more. >> Leigh: Yeah. >> So, how should people bucket their savings? Should they have an emergency fund, a college fund, a retirement fund, how should they do that? >> So what we find at SaverLife is, or what we promote, is the idea that your money should really align with your values. And what's important to you, and what you want to achieve for yourself and for your family. So we don't tell people what to save for, and we don't tell them what to spend their money on, right? So, the biggest thing that people save for with the program is emergencies. So, really having that financial cushion, so, your car breaks down, or whatever the case may be, you can take care of it without going into debt, right? 'Cause that's the cycle that we want to avoid. But then we also see people really staying on track to save for big goals. And unsurprisingly, those are still the kind of goals that we talk about a lot in this country. So, an education, for yourself or for your children, and home ownership. Those remain, kind of the most popular things that people are focused on. >> So when it comes to prioritizing how you should save, like especially for someone who's just coming off that one paycheck away from the street, kind of space, how would you recommend prioritizing your savings? >> Leigh: So, we focus on building a savings habit. That's kind of the number one thing that we want people to really think about. So, putting money away as consistently as you can. It's really the behavior change that we're looking to see. And that's why we encourage people to make those small, incremental steps. But we also know that life has a lot of ups and downs, right? Particularly for people who are, as you say, living paycheck to paycheck. And so, what we see in our data is that families are often making two deposits in one withdrawal. So they're putting money away, and then they're using that money when they need it to get through emergencies. So that's kind of the first thing that we really look to do is, once you have that savings habit, and we know it's hard, you know, to do that, especially if you're not making a lot of money at this moment. But that's really, whatever you can save to get into that habit of putting it away. >> And do you think people are more at risk of being one paycheck away from being on the street, or one big bill away from being on the street? >> Leigh: Yeah, absolutely, many people are, you know? And especially here in the Bay Area, right? When life is extremely expensive, the cost of housing is out of control, and those other expenses that people have to deal with. And if you layer on top of that, that inconsistency in people's income, not making a regular amount of money, we're putting a lot of people in a very, very perilous situation. >> Sonia: Right. So let's talk about financial empowerment. You were leading the office of financial empowerment in the city and county of San Francisco. So, tell us more about financial empowerment and why it's important for people to have it. So, you know, I started out working for the city over there for about 11 years, before there was a thing called financial empowerment. And we started working on a range of programs. I worked for the San Francisco treasurer, and what we're really looking to do is use the influence of the city, and the municipal government to try to make a more fair and equitable financial system for people in San Francisco. So we started with programs like Bank On San Francisco, which was access to banking for everybody. So the idea that everyone should be able to have a safe and affordable place to keep their money, and to save their money. So that was a program we worked on there. And then we went on to launch the country's first universal children's savings program. So today, every single kindergartner, actually, today, every single elementary school student in San Francisco has a savings account open for them by the city and county, to encourage families to save early and often, for college. So when we think about financial empowerment, and how local government plays a role, we're really looking at a couple of things. So, do you have the ability to have a safe place to keep your money, and deposit your paycheck, pay your bills, in a way that's affordable, that doesn't have high fees, and is transparent, so that's the first thing. Do you have access to financial education and coaching if you need it? So the city now has quite a robust individual financial coaching and counseling program that they run. Are you able to save and invest in your future? So, save for college, save for home ownership, save for those big things, be a small business owner. And then the fourth thing is, are your assets protected? So are we protecting you from predatory practices that can deplete your wealth? >> And why did you decide to go from the city, from a public organization to a more private organization, like SaverLife? >> Leigh: You know, it was a interesting story. So we had worked with SaverLife when it was known as EARN, at the city. So the organization was actually really closely partnered with us, so I knew them and I knew their work. So there was a couple of reasons. I became really intrigued by this idea that being here in Silicon Valley, we really should start putting the types of technology that are so transformative, really putting that to work for everybody, right? And I had been an advisor, on an advisory board to for-profit fintech starter. And I thought, "Oh, if we could take that type of tech, "and use it to help low income people "build wealth in the US, "that could be really transformative." So that was the first reason. The second reason was really thinking about the scope of this problem, and when you work for the local government, you see that trajectory, that, you know, the traffic ticket that turned into a lost drivers license that turned into a lost job, that turned into an eviction, right? Like, you see those types of issues play out, over and over in people's lives. So the idea that half of America doesn't have four or five hundred bucks, and we could actually do something about that, was really impactful to me. And then the third reason was, you know, I loved working for the San Francisco treasurer, who is amazing, but I kind of felt, as a woman, that I wanted to lead an organization in my own right. And that I had challenged myself that, I had a personal goal that if the opportunity came up, to be that leader that I was going to challenge myself to take it. And so when the opportunity came up, I just went for it. >> And what challenges did you face to become the CEO? >> I think, you know, a lot of the challenges first were within myself, you know? Like, there's a lot that goes into being a non-profit CEO, you know? You have, obviously, you're working on some of the biggest problems that are out there, and you're doing it with so few resources, you know? And so, is that kind of, you know that saying about Ginger Rogers doing everything that Fred Astaire did but backwards and in heels, it's kind of like that, right? You're trying to solve really, really, really big problems that are deeply entrenched, like half of America doesn't have $400. There's a lot of reasons for that, right? And then you're trying to do it by cobbling together philanthropic resources to make that happen. So, I think that was a challenge, like would it be a success? And then at the time, this organization was making in the midst of this massive transformation, you know? So going from seeing clients one on one in the office, to launching and building a scalable tech platform. And I don't have a tech background, you know? I can sometimes use my phone, you know? Like, that's, it's not my thing. But I was able to understand the potential. And so that was what really drew me there to challenge myself to be like, okay, well, there's a lot of people around here that have managed to figure this out, maybe I can figure it out, too. >> Sonia: Yeah, absolutely. So when we talk about people being unbanked, can you tell us more about what unbanked means and what it means for today? >> Leigh: Yeah, so when we talk about access to banking, and mainstream financial services, we usually separate that into two buckets, right? So you have unbanked, which means, people who have no formal relationship with a bank or credit union. So, you don't have a checking account, you don't have a savings account, you're going to a check cashing place, you're paying a fee, quite high fee, to turn your paycheck or whatever into cash, you're paying your bills with money orders, you know, that kind of thing. Then there's a larger category of people that are called underbanked. And so, those are people who may have that checking account relationship with a bank or a credit union, but they're still using these types of alternative services. So that could be money orders, it could be high cost predatory pay day lending, auto title lending, like these, kind of, systems that are outside of mainstream finance. And that actually affects quite a lot of people here in the US. About, I think, 7 to 8% of people are completely unbanked, but a much more significant portion are considered underbanked. And I think there are a lot of reasons for that, it's usually split about 50-50 between people who have never had an account before. So those may be people who don't think banks are for them, don't feel welcome in that environment, don't trust banks, you know, so those are some of the reasons. But then the other half of people who are unbanked is because they've had bad or negative experiences with banking, and they've made a decision that banking didn't work for them. It was too costly, often that's the reason, hidden fees, overdraft fees, those types of penalties, and just decided that, you know what, it was better for me to manage my money in a different way. >> And how has SaverLife helped these people feel more secure in their financial investments? >> Leigh: So when we first launched SaverLife, it's gone through so many, so much. So much transformation and change over the years, as we've been, really adopting some of those tech based practices around iteration, and being user driven, and really trying to deliver something that will work for people. So what we heard when we first launched, was, you know, I know that saving is something I need to do for myself and my family, I think pretty much everybody knows and understands that, but it's too hard for me right now, you know? Either I've lost my job, I've been, I've had an illness, or a family member's had an illness, a lot of real reasons why people are unable to do that. And so people would say, "But I really want to get there, "so what can you do to help me?" So, at SaverLife specifically, we work with large numbers of people, we have about a quarter of a million people who've signed up for SaverLife in the last three years, which is really cool. We went from serving ten thousand people in a decade, actually six thousand people in a decade, to 250 thousand people in three years, which is pretty cool. So that shows us that there's a big need and interest for this. So anyone that goes to saverlife.org and signs up is going to get weekly financial coaching content from a certified financial coach who specializes in helping people with lower incomes to build wealth. If you link your account to our platform, you're going to qualify to win prizes for saving your own money. So it's kind of like this no-lose lottery in a way, like, you gain 'cause you're saving, and you have the opportunity to win money, and it's completely free. So, there's a lot of real benefits that we have on the platform that are designed specifically to help people who are struggling financially. >> Well, that's awesome. Leigh, thank you so much for being on theCUBE and thank you for your insight. >> Thanks so much for having me. >> Absolutely. >> I enjoyed speaking with you. >> I'm Sonia Tagare, thank you for watching this CUBE conversation. See you next time. (funky music)

(funky music) >> Hi, and welcome to this CUBE conversation from theCUBE Studios in Paulo Alto, California. I'm your host, Sonia Tagare, and today we're joined by Leigh Phillips, president and CEO of SaverLife. Leigh, welcome to theCUBE. >> Hi, thanks so much for having me. >> Absolutely. So, tell us more about SaverLife and how it works. >> So, SaverLife is a non-profit organization. We work nationally, but we're based here in San Francisco, and our mission is to help working American families to save money, and to invest in themselves and their futures. So, we do that by making it engaging, rewarding, and fun for people to start saving, and leveraging financial technology to achieve scale. >> And you were previously known as EARN, so what spurred this change in branding? >> Well, it was more than a change in branding. It was actually a big shift towards technology. So, EARN, or, now known as SaverLife, has actually been around since 2001. So, we are not new, we're not a starter, we've been helping low to moderate income working families to save money for a long time. But what we've realized in recent years is that the size of the problem is really quite significant. So, about half of American families don't have $400. So they couldn't cover a $400 expense without having to borrow the money. As EARN, we were helping a lot of families here in the Bay Area, but maybe, you know, a thousand families a year at our peak, and when you have half of America that's financially insecure, we knew that the solution that we had wasn't big enough. So, a couple of years ago, the organization decided to make a pivot, and to make a pivot towards technology. I came onboard about four and a half years ago to lead that transition, and we launched SaverLife as a product, and we reached a quarter of a million people in a couple years, and decided that the people know best, and that we would rebrand the whole organization as SaverLife. So that's kind of how that came about. >> That's awesome. >> Yeah. >> So who is SaverLife specifically targeting, and are there any specific challenges with this target group? >> So, SaverLife is specifically targeting working American families, mostly low income families, so as I mentioned, financial insecurity is a really big problem here in the US, and so we hear about that a lot in the news, about income inequality, wealth inequality, but one of the most troubling statistics came out from the Federal Reserve Bank, they found that about 42% of American families couldn't cover a $400 expense without going into debt. And that's an issue that affects lots of people in different ways. So, SaverLife is really targeting low income people who are struggling to save money, and need a little help getting started with that. So, most of our clients are women, they're all across the United States and on average make about 25 thousand dollars a year or less. >> So let's talk about the current savings crisis in America. According to Bankry, 20% of Americans don't have emergency savings, and only 18% of Americans can live off their savings for only six months. So, tell us more about this crisis, and what do you think the underlying issue is? >> Yeah, it's a great question, and there are many issues that play into that, and most of them are systemic, you know. The way that people are making money and the gap between income and expenses. So, what we see is that larger numbers of people don't have basic emergency savings, and what that means is that you can't get through a financial emergency, right? And so that can have a real downward spiral effect on your life. So imagine a scenario where you have to miss a day or two of work because your child is sick, and you don't have sick leave, like a lot of people don't. And so you miss a couple days of income. Or, you get a flat tire, or a parking ticket. Those are the types of things that can really spiral out of control, so then you lose income, then you can't pay your rent, you're at risk of eviction, and all of these other problems. So what we know is that having relatively small amount of money, so even just 250 to $750 in savings is found to reduce those risks of things like eviction, or falling behind on bills or utilities really significantly. So, we're focused on getting people to that point, so that they can get through challenges. So one of the big things that we see in our population, isn't just that wages are low, which remains a really big problem in the US right now, but that income is really inconsistent. So if you're making an hourly wage job, or maybe you work in retail, or you work in a warehouse, or something like that, and you drive for Uber, whatever the case may be, your money that's coming in, you're not getting the same amount of money in your paycheck every two weeks, right? Like many of us do. And in fact, for SaverLife clients, we're seeing these swings of income of around a thousand dollars a month, month over month. So sometimes you earn more and sometimes you earn less. So in that scenario, it's really hard to stay on track towards saving, because you don't know how much money's coming in, and then you're getting hit with all these increasing expenses at the same time. >> Right. And, can you tell us a little bit about how people can save their way to financial independence, is it viable, and how have challenges changed since the disappearance of defined-benefit retirement packages? >> Yeah, so, it is possible, but it's challenging, and, you know, I do think that we need to be aware of those kind of bigger issues, right? And to focus on helping people have more consistency in their income, and reducing some of those large expenses, whether or not in the Bay Area obviously, the cost of housing, medical care, child care, transportation, all of these things that are really holding families back. But, you know, the good news is that people are remarkable. People are resilient, and people are remarkable. And I can share a couple of stories with you about that. So, at SaverLife we encourage people to save with prizes and cash rewards, right? So we make it really easy for people to get started. We also have a really supportive online community, so this is an issue that affects half of us, right? It's not something that people should be ashamed of. This is a really big and endemic issue here in the US. So we don't judge people, you know, it's all about starting small and starting today. So what we do at SaverLife is encourage people to save what they can when they can, and then we use behavioral economics to design programmatic interventions, so features on the website, that encourage people to save. So you can save five bucks a week if that's what works for you, and then you have the chance to win prizes. We also do a tax time quest, so that's happening right now. So, tax season is one of the times when people will get a larger infusion of cash, right? Particularly low income people, who maybe are qualified for tax credits and other benefits. So, what we do is encourage people to save a portion of that refund. So we ask people to start thinking about it before they get the refund, right? That's really clear, cause once the money is in, it's usually already spent. So we start talking to people in December, why don't you pledge to save your refund? You can win prizes just for pledging. And what we've found is that getting people to think about and commit to savings resulted, last year, in 80% of those people actually putting money into savings, and saving on average 16 hundred dollars from their tax refunds. >> Sonia: Wow. That's incredible. I love how you're incentivizing this whole savings thing, because, like, that essentially just makes people want to do it more. >> Leigh: Yeah. >> So, how should people bucket their savings? Should they have an emergency fund, a college fund, a retirement fund, how should they do that? >> So what we find at SaverLife is, or what we promote, is the idea that your money should really align with your values. And what's important to you, and what you want to achieve for yourself and for your family. So we don't tell people what to save for, and we don't tell them what to spend their money on, right? So, the biggest thing that people save for with the program is emergencies. So, really having that financial cushion, so, your car breaks down, or whatever the case may be, you can take care of it without going into debt, right? 'Cause that's the cycle that we want to avoid. But then we also see people really staying on track to save for big goals. And unsurprisingly, those are still the kind of goals that we talk about a lot in this country. So, an education, for yourself or for your children, and home ownership. Those remain, kind of the most popular things that people are focused on. >> So when it comes to prioritizing how you should save, like especially for someone who's just coming off that one paycheck away from the street, kind of space, how would you recommend prioritizing your savings? >> Leigh: So, we focus on building a savings habit. That's kind of the number one thing that we want people to really think about. So, putting money away as consistently as you can. It's really the behavior change that we're looking to see. And that's why we encourage people to make those small, incremental steps. But we also know that life has a lot of ups and downs, right? Particularly for people who are, as you say, living paycheck to paycheck. And so, what we see in our data is that families are often making two deposits in one withdrawal. So they're putting money away, and then they're using that money when they need it to get through emergencies. So that's kind of the first thing that we really look to do is, once you have that savings habit, and we know it's hard, you know, to do that, especially if you're not making a lot of money at this moment. But that's really, whatever you can save to get into that habit of putting it away. >> And do you think people are more at risk of being one paycheck away from being on the street, or one big bill away from being on the street? >> Leigh: Yeah, absolutely, many people are, you know? And especially here in the Bay Area, right? When life is extremely expensive, the cost of housing is out of control, and those other expenses that people have to deal with. And if you layer on top of that, that inconsistency in people's income, not making a regular amount of money, we're putting a lot of people in a very, very perilous situation. >> Sonia: Right. So let's talk about financial empowerment. You were leading the office of financial empowerment in the city and county of San Francisco. So, tell us more about financial empowerment and why it's important for people to have it. So, you know, I started out working for the city over there for about 11 years, before there was a thing called financial empowerment. And we started working on a range of programs. I worked for the San Francisco treasurer, and what we're really looking to do is use the influence of the city, and the municipal government to try to make a more fair and equitable financial system for people in San Francisco. So we started with programs like Bank On San Francisco, which was access to banking for everybody. So the idea that everyone should be able to have a safe and affordable place to keep their money, and to save their money. So that was a program we worked on there. And then we went on to launch the country's first universal children's savings program. So today, every single kindergartner, actually, today, every single elementary school student in San Francisco has a savings account open for them by the city and county, to encourage families to save early and often, for college. So when we think about financial empowerment, and how local government plays a role, we're really looking at a couple of things. So, do you have the ability to have a safe place to keep your money, and deposit your paycheck, pay your bills, in a way that's affordable, that doesn't have high fees, and is transparent, so that's the first thing. Do you have access to financial education and coaching if you need it? So the city now has quite a robust individual financial coaching and counseling program that they run. Are you able to save and invest in your future? So, save for college, save for home ownership, save for those big things, be a small business owner. And then the fourth thing is, are your assets protected? So are we protecting you from predatory practices that can deplete your wealth? >> And why did you decide to go from the city, from a public organization to a more private organization, like SaverLife? >> Leigh: You know, it was a interesting story. So we had worked with SaverLife when it was known as EARN, at the city. So the organization was actually really closely partnered with us, so I knew them and I knew their work. So there was a couple of reasons. I became really intrigued by this idea that being here in Silicon Valley, we really should start putting the types of technology that are so transformative, really putting that to work for everybody, right? And I had been an advisor, on an advisory board to for-profit fintech starter. And I thought, "Oh, if we could take that type of tech, "and use it to help low income people "build wealth in the US, "that could be really transformative." So that was the first reason. The second reason was really thinking about the scope of this problem, and when you work for the local government, you see that trajectory, that, you know, the traffic ticket that turned into a lost drivers license that turned into a lost job, that turned into an eviction, right? Like, you see those types of issues play out, over and over in people's lives. So the idea that half of America doesn't have four or five hundred bucks, and we could actually do something about that, was really impactful to me. And then the third reason was, you know, I loved working for the San Francisco treasurer, who is amazing, but I kind of felt, as a woman, that I wanted to lead an organization in my own right. And that I had challenged myself that, I had a personal goal that if the opportunity came up, to be that leader that I was going to challenge myself to take it. And so when the opportunity came up, I just went for it. >> And what challenges did you face to become the CEO? >> I think, you know, a lot of the challenges first were within myself, you know? Like, there's a lot that goes into being a non-profit CEO, you know? You have, obviously, you're working on some of the biggest problems that are out there, and you're doing it with so few resources, you know? And so, is that kind of, you know that saying about Ginger Rogers doing everything that Fred Astaire did but backwards and in heels, it's kind of like that, right? You're trying to solve really, really, really big problems that are deeply entrenched, like half of America doesn't have $400. There's a lot of reasons for that, right? And then you're trying to do it by cobbling together philanthropic resources to make that happen. So, I think that was a challenge, like would it be a success? And then at the time, this organization was making in the midst of this massive transformation, you know? So going from seeing clients one on one in the office, to launching and building a scalable tech platform. And I don't have a tech background, you know? I can sometimes use my phone, you know? Like, that's, it's not my thing. But I was able to understand the potential. And so that was what really drew me there to challenge myself to be like, okay, well, there's a lot of people around here that have managed to figure this out, maybe I can figure it out, too. >> Sonia: Yeah, absolutely. So when we talk about people being unbanked, can you tell us more about what unbanked means and what it means for today? >> Leigh: Yeah, so when we talk about access to banking, and mainstream financial services, we usually separate that into two buckets, right? So you have unbanked, which means, people who have no formal relationship with a bank or credit union. So, you don't have a checking account, you don't have a savings account, you're going to a check cashing place, you're paying a fee, quite high fee, to turn your paycheck or whatever into cash, you're paying your bills with money orders, you know, that kind of thing. Then there's a larger category of people that are called underbanked. And so, those are people who may have that checking account relationship with a bank or a credit union, but they're still using these types of alternative services. So that could be money orders, it could be high cost predatory pay day lending, auto title lending, like these, kind of, systems that are outside of mainstream finance. And that actually affects quite a lot of people here in the US. About, I think, 7 to 8% of people are completely unbanked, but a much more significant portion are considered underbanked. And I think there are a lot of reasons for that, it's usually split about 50-50 between people who have never had an account before. So those may be people who don't think banks are for them, don't feel welcome in that environment, don't trust banks, you know, so those are some of the reasons. But then the other half of people who are unbanked is because they've had bad or negative experiences with banking, and they've made a decision that banking didn't work for them. It was too costly, often that's the reason, hidden fees, overdraft fees, those types of penalties, and just decided that, you know what, it was better for me to manage my money in a different way. >> And how has SaverLife helped these people feel more secure in their financial investments? >> Leigh: So when we first launched SaverLife, it's gone through so many, so much. So much transformation and change over the years, as we've been, really adopting some of those tech based practices around iteration, and being user driven, and really trying to deliver something that will work for people. So what we heard when we first launched, was, you know, I know that saving is something I need to do for myself and my family, I think pretty much everybody knows and understands that, but it's too hard for me right now, you know? Either I've lost my job, I've been, I've had an illness, or a family member's had an illness, a lot of real reasons why people are unable to do that. And so people would say, "But I really want to get there, "so what can you do to help me?" So, at SaverLife specifically, we work with large numbers of people, we have about a quarter of a million people who've signed up for SaverLife in the last three years, which is really cool. We went from serving ten thousand people in a decade, actually six thousand people in a decade, to 250 thousand people in three years, which is pretty cool. So that shows us that there's a big need and interest for this. So anyone that goes to saverlife.org and signs up is going to get weekly financial coaching content from a certified financial coach who specializes in helping people with lower incomes to build wealth. If you link your account to our platform, you're going to qualify to win prizes for saving your own money. So it's kind of like this no-lose lottery in a way, like, you gain 'cause you're saving, and you have the opportunity to win money, and it's completely free. So, there's a lot of real benefits that we have on the platform that are designed specifically to help people who are struggling financially. >> Well, that's awesome. Leigh, thank you so much for being on theCUBE and thank you for your insight. >> Thanks so much for having me. >> Absolutely. >> I enjoyed speaking with you. >> I'm Sonia Tagare, thank you for watching this CUBE conversation. See you next time. (funky music)

>> Announcer: Live, from San Juan, Puerto Rico, it's theCUBE. Covering BlockChain Unbound, brought to you by Blockchain Industries. (Puerto Rican music playing) >> Hey, welcome back everyone. This is theCUBE's exclusive coverage here in Puerto Rico for Blockchain Unbound. I'm John Furrier, the co-host of SiliconANGLE Medias. theCUBE is our flagship product. We go out to the events and extract the signal from the noise. My next guest is Christian Ferri who's with Block Star, doing investments, ICO advisor, he's been in the space, great to see you, nice to meet. >> Absolutely, thanks for having me John. >> Thanks for joining. So, okay, some people are saying that we're the top of the bubble, some people are saying that it's the beginning of a revolution. Some people are, like, staying away, "Oh my God, what's going on?" Some of those investing both in equity and token deals. What's your take on this? I mean, how do you explain this? Because it is a global phenomenon, I mean, what's your take? >> Yeah, I think we're at a very early beginning right now. It's definitely, I would say 1996-97 of the internet bubble if you will. We're seeing some amazing growth, right? So, things are picking up real fast I think. You know, the moment that Bitcoin hits $10,000 a lot of people got interested in all this phenomenon. ICOs are becoming the standard for fundraising for startups. It's an interesting model, you don't have to give up any equity, you don't have to give up any board seats, it's much easier, much simpler. But there are definitely some legalities and regulatory aspects that put some concerns in a lot of people's minds. >> What are the, I mean obviously if you're an investor, you got to get a pound of flesh somewhere, the old days was equity and that was a long game, it had a different gestation period. How are you making money now on the investments? Is it just getting on the discounted tokens? Is there a little liquidity going on? So, if there's no dilution, you got to make money somewhere, so, where is the secret? >> Yeah absolutely, great question. So I think if we're looking at security tokens, to finance investment vehicles, the way you make money is by the value increases of the token, right? So, as you buy a $1 and the token goes to $1.50, you have your 50% increase, right, return. There are new companies in the ICO space, they're thinking about leveraging the equity side of things, but it's fairly new. Right now it's merely a token deal, so when you think about private sale, pre-sale, it's 99% a token deal, right? Although equity's coming in because a lot more venture capital is coming in and they're demanding a piece of the action from a company in equity perspective. >> Yeah, and some of the ICO's, because we've outlined this on theCUBE many times, Blockchain, I call it the Crypto-stack, Blockchain, Cryptocurrency, and the application on the financial is ICO, >> Christian: Right. >> But that ICO also translates into the application dynamics of token economics, tends to value creation. >> Christian: Right. >> Hence what you were talking about token value going up, kind of like how equity investment would go up if it got sold on valuation, etc. >> Christian: Right. >> Okay, ICOs are hot. Now the market is pretty aware of the scams, the scams out there. Young kid puts a fake white paper out there, raises 20 million, >> Christian: Right. >> Next thing you know it's like, "where's the money?". >> Christian: I've heard that before. >> And then you've got legit ICOs going off the blocks which a really legit, going great, how do you make sense of it as an investor? Is it classic word of mouth? >> Yeah. >> What kind of due diligence are you doing? What's your filter? >> I think what you said, word of mouth definitely plays a big role in it, I had to trust that toward your network. Having a research team kind of helps understand the technology behind it, if it's actually feasible. I go through 250 white paper a month. >> So you're a white paper reader. >> I am not, my research team oversees actually. >> Okay. >> But as an investment and advisory firm, we have a lot of inflow of companies that want to get advised on or invested in. And a lot of these white papers are total moon shots, it's like build a YouTube and it's 1982, you have a dial up, you can't do that, you need a broadband, right? >> John: Yeah. >> So, you have to have a very diligent process and team that does that. And then think about 99% of the white paper you'll see are going to be crap or junk. Only one or two percent are going to be good. And so that selection process is very key. On top of that, there are a few things in the tokenization process that can raise red flags. For example, if they're too aggressive on the discounts on the private sale, like 70% discount, 80% discount, it's not a good indication, it's a red flag. >> Really, why not? >> It shows that the product is not that great, right? If you have to give somebody an 80%, if you're buying a Ferrari that is discounted at 80%, would you buy it or would you say, "well I'm not sure"? >> Well you could be, it's like giving warrant coverage on a equity deal, >> Christian: You could. >> You could go up to someone and say hey I'm going to give you 80% discount because I want you in my deal, and I want you to make more money than the other guys. >> And what we see. >> I mean that's the counter argument. >> Yeah and what we see. >> I guess what you're saying is there's two vehicles. >> Yeah. >> Desperation. >> Christian: Yep. >> I got to discount the shit out of it to get attraction. And what I'm saying is it's kind of like a hot deal you want the right people in, I've seen both. >> Christian: Yeah it's a good point, usually what we've seen in the past four and a half years is that the good deals don't get discount more than 35%. That's usually the max they get discounted, especially just because you said you need strategic partners to back you up, to help you out since the beginning. These people should be invested in the project, they should not be incentivized by the discount that you're giving them on a private sale. But they should be incentivized because they believe in you and believe in the product. >> So it's a judgment call. >> Yeah. >> You shouldn't have to drop your drawers, so to speak. >> That's right. >> Good feedback, that's great, now token sale economics, I'm the entrepreneur, how should I be thinking about going to you, and I have a good deal, I have a great product, I've got token economics, I'm a growing company, this is an opportunity for me to scale my business at an unprecedented level. I can get more capital than I can on the private market because it's flowing faster here. What do I got to do to get your attention? >> Well, first of all, from an advisor perspective, we only take usually established companies, they have a minimum of 10 million in ARR, so annual recurring revenue. We make a few exceptions, if there's a very strong team, a very strong advisory board, or they have a few characteristics and qualities that we look for. We kind of trying to wave that 10 million ARR, but we're looking for like stellar team, rockstar teams, with a good advisor board, with technologies actually feasible to be built in the next two or three years. And that can actually be deployed on the market. >> So they want to see product, you got to see product. >> Absolutely, absolutely. >> So you don't investing in the moon shot, as you said. >> No. >> Not really because that's essentially a seed deal. >> Yeah, exactly, there are circumstances when you have a very amazing team, that've done some crazy amazing things in the past, and they're talking about moon shots, right? They're, I'm not going to say a name but there's a big ICO right now raising billions of dollars. >> Telegram. >> Right, well I'm going to say a name. >> Telegram, are you in Telegram? >> Sorry? >> Are you in Telegram? >> Yeah I'm a user, right? >> Not a buyer of the ICO. >> I have not invested. >> Okay. >> I have lot of people that want to invest in an ICO, but I personally have different opinions on it. But there's a lot of moon shooting over there, right? >> John: Yeah. >> So you want to make sure there's a fine balance between what you're promising and what you can actually do. >> Great, so what's your advise to entrepreneurs when they're at the stage of, "I really want to do a token sale, I think we're ready". What's your advisory role? How do you come in and help? They might not be ready for capital but they might want some advisory, maybe throw in a little bit of token cash, not token cash in there, but legit cash via tokens. >> Christian: Absolutely. >> How do you engage? What's your, you mentioned some of the 10 million, but what do you bring to the table? >> So the way it works usually is that they come in with a white paper and an idea on an established business that they want to tokenize, and then we basically have a conversation, we start having a conversation to figure out what they want to do. But the first advice that I give my clients is to stop. This business has too much FOMO in it. >> John: Yeah. >> The fear of missing out. So not just because everybody's out there doing ICO you should be doing an ICO, right? >> John: Yep. >> So this is the first thing to take a step back, figure out what really makes sense for you, and your situation in your company. And number two, I always provide the example where, thinking of going ICO in a three step process. You start with the business, right? >> John: Yep. >> So back in the 90s and I think you were around back then. >> John: Yeah, I was. >> When you were asking somebody, when you were saying, "what are you doing?", it was like "oh I doing a startup, "I'm building a company, I'm building a startup", right? >> John: Yep. >> Everybody was talking about startups. You go just about anywhere in the world talking about Blockchain, and somebody stops you and says, "what are you doing?", an ICO, right? >> Everyone's doing it. >> Everybody's doing it, but an ICO is an investment vehicle and not a company, right? >> John: Yeah. >> So, start with the business, got the business mechanics down right, so free cash flow, unique value proposition, product-market fit. Once you've done the business, think about the token model. >> John: Yeah. >> The token model has to go in hand in hand with your business model and revenue model. And don't settle for the first one to come to mind. There are over 50 business, I'm actually writing a book about it, The First ICO Playbook coming out later this year. >> John: Okay, great. >> It's going to have some new token models in it, and once you figure out the business and token models, now it's time to think about compliance. And compliance can actually enable the rest, and, when under the right jurisdictions, they're a match for the token and the business model. >> John: Alright so the token playbook, great job, I'm glad you're writing that book, I think we need to get a good playbook down. Alright so here's a playbook question for you we're going to go to the playbook on this one. Security token, or utility token, okay, we've got that figured out. We got to have utility. I'm going to raise money in the US and abroad, I've decided to go with the security token, hypothetical instance, what do I do? Security to equity? Security for future cash flows? What is the playbook for the security token? >> Well it's more simple than it sounds, in a sense. So the first this is if you're not sure whether it's a utility or a security, just file it as a security. And from a security standpoint, I think you're covered whether or not you're selling to the US or are a US resident citizen, you still have to comply with the SEC regulations just because you're in the US. And so a security can actually have different terms just like you said, a security to equity, a security to token and so forth. That depends on what your revenue model is and what your structure of your company is, and so a lot of people are doing security equity. Other are doing security token, just because they don't want to give up the equity of the company or the board seats. >> John: So what's the biggest thing that you're scared of in this market, as an investor? Are you worried about regulatory? You worried about too much money chasing not enough good deals? What's your fear? >> One of the initiatives I started last year is called the BlockChain Compliance Alliance. It's a no-profit independent initiative to develop a standard for ICOs. >> John: You started that? >> Yeah, I founded it last year with a few other folks, and then five or six people, >> Trying to build some stability around the process? >> You got it, yeah, it's almost like a self regulating standard, or an SRO, right? >> Yeah. >> And we had the opportunity to engage in some regulators, some folks at the SEC and some other government agencies, not just in the US but also in Europe, and they're very open to have a self-regulating standard. >> We need self-regulating standards, the community's got to take care of business, there's a lot of scams out there. >> Yeah, absolutely, so they're open to say to have an industry of self regulating from the top down, the kind of choke innovations. >> John: Yeah. So I'm not really concerned about too much regulations coming in the regulators. >> John: Well the SEC's just been signaling, they've taken a few obvious scammers down, but they really haven't overreached, in my opinion, I think signaling has been good, but they're signaling. >> They are signaling. >> They're not looking the other way. >> Absolutely, and I think it's they're job, they have to be signaling. >> But then they don't know what they're talking about either so the communities got to step up to your point. >> Correct, right, so we're trying to kind of be that, basically that intermediary, if you will, right? >> How many people are involved in that? Just take a quick minute to explain, URLs or like a website. >> Yeah we do, it's blockchaincompliancealliance.org. >> John: Who's involved in that? >> It's five or six people we're getting on, volunteers, it's a nonprofit, so volunteers. We're looking for additional volunteers, donations, and a board of advisory. We have a few high level advisors. >> Whales, whales. >> Yeah, well. >> They're called whales, are they whales? >> Well, whales don't want to be known, it's hard to find a whale, but I said that we have a few high level advisors that would like to come onboard, we're going to make that announcement soon. >> Us minnows out there. >> But it's going to be exciting. >> That's awesome, okay now back to the token economics, I'm fascinated by the token economics. Again, you can't just whitewash a business in saying, "hey I'm tokenizing now", there really has to be a dynamic. What do you look for, what do you observe, and what's your thoughts on how to actually think about the token economics alignment with the business model? Where does that have to line up for you? >> Yeah, good question, I think there are different aspects of it, first of all, you need to define what a token is. Is that for you an incentive mechanism? In which case, you can use an airdrop model, you don't necessarily have to ask people for money. Or is it a fundraising mechanism, or both? So let's just start with these basic questions. You can think of it, you can move on to say, "who's going to be my user?", right? Who's going to use this token? Think about are they going to be moms, dads, hospitals? Like what's my target? And then how they're going to use it, are they going to hold it? Are they going to sell it, are they going to trade it? So all these different things define the token model, right? And the token model, as we said, needs to go hand in hand with the business model, the revenue model as well. So for example a lot of companies are using the token as a fundraising mechanism, but an incentive mechanism as well to incentivize this behavior. >> So talk about the dynamics of an airdrop and a token swap. We're starting to see airdrops are well known, just take advantage of explaining to folks who don't know. And then, I'll get to the token swapping, we're seeing some synergistic keiretsus for me, so airdrops and then token swaps. >> Yeah, airdrops are becoming, basically the new standard, I would say, they're a way-- >> John: Outside the US? >> Even the US, actually. >> John: Are they doing it in the US? Okay, explain what it is. >> There's a company, I think it's called Earn.com, where you can actually launch your airdrop campaign for free or you have to pay something but >> John: What's the URL? >> Earn, Earn.com >> John: Earn.com, okay yeah I see that. >> E-A-R-N, yeah. >> Explain what an airdrop is, just define it. >> So, it's a very simple term, you basically airdrop tokens, you basically give tokens to users, to people, right? So basically people sign up on your site, and you white list an address, and then you basically send those tokens to that address. So it's a way to circumvent a public sale. >> So get free tokens out? >> Christian: Yeah. >> To generate community activity, marketing buzz. >> Christian: Correct. >> So you're just going to airdrop it, kind of metaphorically. >> Right, there are some ways that people do private sales with airdropping. >> Where's the gotchas on the airdrops? Where are people getting in trouble? >> Well, if the token is a security, depends on if they're giving it to you for free, but the value increases, the token increases in value, that delta becomes dubious. From an IRS perspective, from an SEC perspective, from a CFDC perspective, that we still haven't figured out, but ideally if we give out free tokens to incentivize the community, >> Yeah that's normal marketing usage, in the SEC you view that as a utility, a legit utility. >> Yeah we see that with the new bill that passed in the past couple of days, that's how they define utility. >> Alright now let's talk about swaps, token swaps, because starting to see some activity around, self-forming, which is natural in communities, adjacent businesses saying, "hey I'll swap "two million dollars worth of tokens "for two million dollars of mine". Kind of a Barney deal, you love me, I love you back, kind of thing, but it's trying to cross pollinate communities and share value, basically a Bus Dev Bill. >> Christian: Yeah, absolutely. >> What do you think about that? >> It's great, I've seen that a lot of that in forming new partnerships between ICOs. So, let's say there are two ICOs that definitely want to have some IOJV or some partnership together, they have some qualities that they'd like to have of each other, and that's how they do it, they do a token swap. It's almost like an equity swap from a regular traditional company standpoint. It's almost like you want to have an action in the company, and I think it's a great model, it's a great incentive mechanism. >> A great legal bill too in all this, someone's got to pay for it, lawyers are having some fun with it. >> Yeah. >> Kind of new progressive laws being figured out, lawyers generating new dockets for the first time, final question for you, I know you got to run, appreciate your time spending it with us. Puerto Rico, you're observation here, you're from the bay area like we are, what are you doing here? Why are you here? What's your observation, what's the hallway conversation? Share some color commentary about BlockChain Unbound. >> So, I'll start with why I'm here. So, it's beautiful place, the weather is amazing, the water is amazing, it's a great place to take some time off. I'm speaking at a bunch of conferences, and meeting a few people. And I'm part of the movement of the Puerto Rico Crypto Movement. I think it's great, I had the opportunity to meet with some of the government officials that came here at BlockChain Unbound today, and talk a little bit about what's happening, how can we actually make sure that, create some sort of a system that is made for ICOs and BlockChain, and what I like about it is that it's very open to accept new ideas, very open to try out new things, which not always happens in the government space, so I'm very excited about >> And they're really active to open arms. >> Absolutely, absolutely. So, I have very high expectations and very good sense that things are going to pan out here. >> You do any deals here? Write any checks? Sign any commitments? Verbal MOUs, handshakes, what's happening? >> There's been some of that. I'm a big believer that you need to do enough due diligence on the process, so have a cool off period, a honeymoon period kind of cool off but I think there are some very interesting people here, I met some very interesting brains, very interesting products. And the energy, you can feel the energy. People want to try their risk and invest. >> I see a lot of people doing deals, I saw one VC, I'm sorry, VC, investor, token investor, he's done six deals already here. >> Christian: Yeah. >> He's buying tokens, handshake, verbal commitments, and MOUs. >> Yeah there's a lot of that going on. >> And a lot of money coming it, a lot of international too. >> Absolutely. >> So great to see not just here in Puerto Rico, not just US, this is a global phenomenon. >> It is, this is one of the things that BlockChain is about. It's ubiquitous, it's everywhere, and that's the beauty of it. >> Well, Christian, thanks so much for coming on theCUBE, we really appreciate it, thanks for sharing the data and advice. The BlockChain Playbook is coming out at the end of the year check it out, Christian Ferri with BlockStar. I'm John Furrier with theCUBE, SiliconANGLE Media. Live coverage here, wall to wall, two days, back with more after this short break.

(uptempo orchestral music) >> Hello and welcome to a special exclusive conversation here in the studios of Palo Alto, California. I'm John Furrier, your co-host and theCube co-founder of Silicon Angle Media. We have exclusive, breaking launch here from a Cube alumni Al Burgio, who's the founder and CEO of Fusechain, a hot start up going after the blockchain, a little bit of open source. This is a launch. This is new information coming out. You still (indistinct talking) for the first time talking about your project again Cube alumni. Welcome to the theCube conversation. >> Thank you for having me John. >> You're the founder and CEO of Fusechain. >> That's correct. >> So you're just in Miami, 5000 people at these blockchain conferences which are exploded the biggest wave. Crypto and Blockchain in tandem are creating a very attractive and intoxicating market. It's the biggest wave we've seen in all the alpha entrepreneurs going out there. Some scammers too are trying to get into this market. We've documented that on theCube. But it's the biggest wave we've seen in a long time. You're out there. Talk about what is Fusechain? What's the story? Gives us the update. >> Sure. So Fusechain is a blockchain technology company, really founded to support a new open source project that is also coming out of stealth mode called the digital bits project. It's focused on disrupting the coalition loyalty industry. What we refer to as let's say one dot of loyalty in rewards. We feel that that market is ripe for disruption. A lot of frictions, others I'm happy to talk about in that space and we feel that blockchain in a decentralized model with the right partners and coalition could change the game. >> So you've got a T-shirt for us. I appreciate it called digital bits. New open source project. What I like about what you're doing, first of all you got a great track record. You have a ton of start ups you've done in the past and again great exits and you always have a good eye for where there's disruption and certainly crypto is dislocating industries, not just disrupting. Radically changing the makeup so before I dig into that. I want to get into digital bit. It's a little bit open source. So you have an open source project combined with what you guys do, so it sounds like you're what Red Hat was for Linux. You're for digital bits, is that? >> That's right so we are. So Fusechain is focused on building applications that are interoperable with that blockchain to support enterprises which is merchants, retailers, hotels so forth that would be working with the digital bits project. And so we feel that there is an opportunity to monetize that building let's say SAS type models around these applications and supporting and helping make digital events very successful. >> So it's interesting, I was observing when I was in New York last fall and I walked into a funds conversation with a bunch of guys. And people were trying to grop where the action was and I raised my hand and said, you can tell a good deal by the ones that are going to take down and incumbent industry, not just the player. You're taking a similar approach which I like about what your deal is. What is it about your approach and what is the target and how are you going to attack that? >> Sure, sure. First and foremost, really focused on blockchain and what was important for us characteristics wise and we felt that it needed to rapid transaction in terms of nature. Seconds as opposed to blocks, let's say every 10 minutes like a bitcoin for example. Because we are focused ultimately let's say on the consumer space. So we first and foremost on how our approach to developing this protocol and supporting the digital bits project. From there it was what industry did we feel would be best suited for this and this is how we gravitate into the loyalty industry. There is already a learned behavior in loyalty. People look at points as let's say a form of currency. They know how to go join one earn and what have you. It's like human mining, if you will and so we wanted to fit let's blockchain technology loyalty as opposed to fitting loyalty into blockchain. The other thing that I liked in terms of us going in this direction was really looking at. There was a lot of different ICOs, blockchain projects out there and so forth. We're the first to market with this. We're the first to market with that, but what's the incumbent doing in corporate America? Let's say, they're probably sitting and waiting and there's nothing preventing them copycatting and doing the same when there's enough of an established market. What I liked about loyalty more specifically the coalition models. We didn't feel that with a decentralized model. Putting into the market a decentralized model that they could replicate that the same way, It's like if you look at Netflix and what they did to Blockbuster. Blockbuster could not pivot quite the same way. We feel that loyalty dot one, specifically the coalition programs, will have a challenges in adopting blockchain in a similar manner. And so we feel that for that reason what we're up to here with this plain venture it's going to be highly disruptive. >> Let's get to the business model after we talk a little bit about the actual tech and the products. So you have digit bits and I notice you guys have a trade mark on that going on. But it's going to be open source. So what is digital bits? Is that the coin? Is it a utility token? How does it work? What are you actually doing? >> So digital bits is the name of the open source project. It's the name of the blockchain protocol. It will be the name of the cryptocurrency, so all the name of that cryptocurrency to that blockchain once it's put in circulation. And the project itself, we will ultimately see that spun into a foundation so it's the name of all of the above in terms of what digital bits is. Fusechain is a contributor to that project and we obviously like what it stands for. We're building parallel management platforms and so forth. Others are free to do this as well and have begun to do so. That will help make that project successful. >> So in other words, it creates a code from digital bits and apply it but you're going to be a token in the project. >> Yeah, if you think of, use Red Hat as an example. So there was open source project out there, various Linux type projects back in the day and big enterprises wanted to take advantage of that. But who was going to support them doing that? So Red Hat obviously established a very successful market in doing that so in a similar manner. We want to support digital bits in a very big way. We're building applications that businesses are going to need so they don't have to go build them themselves, and it will bring those markets. >> Who are you targeting? You're targeting existing businesses that have loyalty. You're trying to take that business away from them. Isn't that new? What the-- >> So coalition loyalty industry is fairly well established. >> John: What does that mean coalition? >> Coalition is multi merchant so in the United States, a brand known as Punti, that happens to be owned by American Express, but you can go to Macy's earn Punti, ExxonMobil and so forth. Canada is very big market for this as well so you have air miles, major grocery chains. >> John: They're always expiring, I hate these programs. >> Well that's the other issue with them. So there's tremendous friction and frustration now with these programs that exists. We're looking to disrupt that as well and provide-- >> So how do they work with you? Give an example of the use case that (indistinct talking). >> Ultimately we feel that, from a coalition standpoint often times the merchant is paying a reoccurring fee to support that program. So let's say big grocery store or hotel or what have you and in order for the privilege of their customers to be able to earn let's say, while shopping online at their store or in that facility just for the privilege of their users to be able to earn, the merchant is having to pay the operator that program, before the consumer has done anything with those points and so it's a big cost to them and we basically just to quantify, it can be as much of an 80% savings verses what the merchant would have to pay the support. One dot to support this decentralized blockchain base solution. >> So you guys are a decentralized application or are you a decentralized platform or you an infrastructure protocol? How do you categorically define yourself? >> So digital bits is definitely an infrastructure protocol but focus specifically on loyalty rewards and so just to, it's really opened in that sense that various businesses can join and support this. In a number of different ways whether it's pre-existing products, platforms that they have. They want it to be inoperable or they simply want their users to be able to now earn this form of loyalty. And we have in the coming weeks, you'll see announcements from other brands, some let's say blue chipish and others up and coming early stage companies with doing loyalty in a different way, joining the digital bits project to take advantage of the tokenize economy. >> I like this Red Hat to Linux in metaphor because I think no one's actually seen that yet happen. I see a lot of (indistinct talking) happen certainly the (indistinct talking) a decentralized apps or de-apps as they are called is huge growth market. We see a big tsunami coming with de-apps, decentralized applications. So will I be writing decentralized apps on your platform infrastructure? Is that they're doing? How are they implementing in your mind the Fusechain and the digital bits? >> So I mean there's basic examples of the products in market already, let's say multi-coin wallets. If they wanted to list digital bits as another cryptocurrency that their app supports then they can support the project in that way. So there's a number of different ways that the developers are established. >> I can build my own wall. I could integrate it into a pre-existing coin wallet. So you're pretty flexible, you're agnostic on how to gets done. >> Exactly, exactly. And this is why ultimately digital bits will be spun into a foundation. >> It will establish some policies around this so it's not completely naked but some governance. >> It's always tricky, you got to be careful. >> Well, governance from the standpoint of I'm looking at it from the perspective of how merchants, the terms by which they would disseminate digital bits to their consumers. >> So some lightweight governance. Is it hardcore governance or lightweight? >> No, I would say lightweight. So it's making sure that there's no bad actors at least at the time of-- >> (indistinct talking) a non-profit apart of the Fusechain? >> No, no, non-profit. >> Okay, okay so let's get into some of your journey. I see entrepreneurial journeys are happening all the time. A lot of people are jumping into the ICO and our crypto blockchain as a start. A lot of my alpha friends are doing it. It's just like wow. This is a big trend. It's disruptive. >> Al: Oh highly. >> Where there's disruption, you're going to have entrepreneurs but also scammers. We'll get that in a second but talk about your journey. ICO, you got to get formed. Get a little form, it could be expensive. We've documented theCube with Goodwin, a law firm in the valley that's doing a lot of ICOs. It could be expensive. There's tax consequences so how are you looking as an entrepreneur? You have opportunity recognition, check. Now you got to put it together. Utility token, are you raising money, are you doing the ICO? Can you give us some details? >> So it's utility token. We are raising money Fusechain initially is focused on raising capital, let's call it the old fashioned way. So Fusechain itself is taking in equity investment not involving any cryptocurrency. >> So no token sales on that simply. >> Is to date but a digital bits itself will be partaking and raising capital for the project. >> With Fusechain's ICO or their own ICO? >> No, no, it will be the digital bits projects. >> So will the ICO go through Fusechain or will go through digital bits? >> It will go through digital bits. >> Okay so you got a utility so that involves a token sales. So you're going to do a private, that's equity for Fusechain and then a token sale for digital bits. >> Al: Correct. >> Okay, that's nice-- >> Call it the pre-presale in advance of it actually being widely disseminated. >> What is the utility of the platform because that's the how we test? >> Yeah, yeah so we're keeping it really simple to start. We feel that we'll be able to demonstrate other utilities with this project, but similar to other projects out there if you're familiar with Ripple and Stellar and so forth. Some basic utility, you need to have some of the coin to be able to send coin. And so we're keeping it relatively simple from that perspective. There's security benefits. >> So the utility you're going after at launch is token sharing. >> Correct. >> Okay, and the activity is loyalty based for the merchants? >> Yes, and consumers so ultimately, digital bits stands for all these sort things I've just mentioned integrated together in this decentralized model really focused on giving back to users. So first and foremost, users being consumers that use these programs and the merchants that have historically supported these types of programs. In addition to that, digital bits is also focused on giving back to society. More specifically aligning itself with charitable organization worldwide that the project itself will be able to give back to. >> You're the (indistinct talking) guy. Your last (indistinct talking) you successfully sold it and exit pairing and networking. One big global network now. So I want to get your perspectives on entrepreneurs and how you've been traveling. We tried to get you last week here on theCube to talk about you're project and getting out there now but you've seen a lot of the events you're out in the field, you're own in the trenches. What's the landscape like in crypto and blockchain? Can you offer any observations? Good, bad and ugly, what's it take? >> I was for example recently last week I attended the North American Bitcoin Blockchain conference down in Miami, nearly 5000 people. Tremendous buzz, great pedigree among speakers. Both domestic speakers worldwide and people I would say from all walks of life. A lot of people are interested in either in the space or very interested in the space and I don't have the numbers in terms what the attendance was last year at that conference. But I wouldn't be surprised if it's 10x-- >> Are these new in tech? Are they tech gurus? What's the makeup and profile of folks in here? >> Overstock.com CEO. One of the keynote speakers of this and obviously a very well established company heavy in blockchain with their subsidiary t0 as well as some of the up and comers. Great pedigree, more specifically associated with the blockchain space but really supporting a lot of these events and being great evangelists for all things blockchain. >> So I get your perspective again. You see many ways of innovation, we're talking before we came on camera. I've been saying and when we talk privately in the valley here and in other places that this is like a dot com bubble, but it's accelerated. Everyone's getting their surf boards and jumping on those big waves. Some think there will be a crash. I think they'll be a probably a reset. There's just too much action happening and again the dot com bubble. Everything actually happens. >> Al: Yeah. >> So a little anecdote there but the point is there's some scammers. >> Al: Yes. >> There's some bubble activity. How are you sorting through that noise? What should people look through? Because when people are like, "Well I'm skeptical. "You're riding a hype wave right now. "What's the real deal?" >> The reality is with anything super exciting, there's always scammers. You have to take traditional stocks. There's always the penny stock scammers let's say and so this is not necessarily something exclusive to blockchain tokens or what have you. We see this in the traditional capital market systems and equities that are out there today. I'd say that this is very much mid 90s internet in terms of equivalent. The benefit of blockchain is that the internet exists so social network and Facebook. The ability to get news out there, widely disseminated, The internet existed. That infrastructure is helping to support the rapid growth trend that we're seeing with blockchain. So I would say that it is a bigger phenomenon than the internet was in the 90, by virtue the internet now existing. >> I got to ask you so one of the things I always is that there's no value being created. It's really a mirage right? So this thing about blockchain is there's a lot of value creation opportunities. As an entrepreneur, you get to see that and certainly see it from the Fusechain and digital bits. If someone said to, "Al, this thing is a bunch of hype. "Where's the value?" Where's the value? Why is crypto and blockchain attracting all these entrepreneurs? Why is it so intoxicating? Why is it attracting all walks of life? What's the value creation opportunity? >> Put cryptocurrencies aside for a moment and just focus on blockchain as a technology and really what it stands for. It is truly revolutionary. This is something with capability to have distributed ledgers solving the double spend issue. All of these things that historically could not be done with the internet or other forms of technology. And so it's very powerful in terms of its applications in areas of let's say even supply chain and how businesses can have this trusted collaborative platform or technology where you don't have to trust any centralized corporation, other institution or what have you, and it just works. So that is the technology itself is highly powerful and it's already evident that it's touching a number of different industries. So outside of the cryptocurrencies, let's say craze. Blockchain is definitely here. It's here to stay and it's just going to continue-- >> That's a fundamental infrastructure shift. >> Absolutely. >> Alright, so let me give you the little snarky comment that get on Facebook all the time. "Ah John crypto, this blockchain. "Have you seen a distributed database before, lol?" That's some snarky comments. So the naysayers will be like, "It's just a distributed database ledger." And then some people will be like, "I just don't see the business case. "Why do people actually need blockchain?" What's your take on those two points? >> I think that, that's a great way to look at it. Can you solve that problem with just using regular database? And probably often times the answer is yes, so blockchain shouldn't necessarily be used for everything, but there is certain things that historically, and again-- >> (indistinct talking) is one. >> Exactly, yeah. >> (indistinct talking) attracts. >> Absolutely, and so there's a number of industries where having it be blockchain based is definitely better than dealing with distributed databases. >> I've been commenting. I'm pro-blockchain as you know. Pretty bias, people know that. However what I say to folks is look, there's a dynamic going on here that's revolutionary at the infrastructure level. I think that's true. That will play out and then I think immutability and then the decentralized nature of apps. It will be a whole another genre of software development whether it's media (indistinct talking) to software. But ultimately it's these communities, if you look at in the media business. I was just at Sundance. There's new artist coming on that have their own audiences. >> Al: Right. >> So those are crushing the elites. So you have a revolution where the common person or group of people could get together in an unstructured way, a decentralized way to take on elite or huge industry incombantants or industries themselves. That's a phenomenon. That's kind of nuance. >> Al: Absolutely. >> It's real. >> It's absolutely real. Think of open source traditionally. You needed your employer to sponsor you. Hey if work for you, can I spend 10% of my time on a open source project? The open source project itself never really had a mechanism to provide support form of remuneration. Now by tokenising and so forth these native currencies an idea can provide a potential for reward and we're seeing that happen, and so it no different than any other great idea. 90 plus % of start ups don't necessarily make it. 90 plus % of blockchain ideas may not make it but the reality is, a community with a great idea can kick off a project on their own and stand the test of time. >> Well Red Hat became popular from Linux which was a second tier citizen in an open source. Now it's tier one also open source is running things so I got to ask you a final question on the business model. How are you guys planning on making money? Is it from support in the open source projects specifically, more services on the coin side. Is it managing the coins? Do you have visibility yet into that model? >> Yes, so I would say yes to what you just said. So Fusechain will create shareholder value in a few different ways. One, obviously being one of the first supporters to the digital bit project. We obviously want to see that project wildly successful, coin appreciation and the asset appreciation that potential could occur there will create shareholder value for Fusechain. In addition to that, Fusechain is building applications that will be SAS like in model. We'll be able to derive a reoccurring revenue. (indistinct talking) models but we'll derive reoccurring revenues. >> For the ecosystem of saving the digital bits actually it evolves. >> Right, merchants, you can go build softwares yourself or here's a subscription based platform that you can use and we'll provide support as well. >> Having fun? >> I'm having a blast. It's the 90s all over again. >> It the twinkle of the eye. I got to say, it's super intoxicating. I'll take hit of that blockchain in next segment with you. Appreciate it, it's really awesome. Blockchain and crypto, really amazing revolution. We're doing our part to unpack it, analyze it and also look at the good deals out there. This is SiliconANGLE theCube here in Palo Alto. I'm John Furrier. Special exclusive to you conversation with Fusechain coming out, talking about their project for the first time digital bits with Al Burgio, the founder and CEO. Thanks for watching. (uptempo orchestral music)